Creature Commandos S1 + Superman trailer reaction – DCUniverse Oneshot

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[00:02:22] Welcome to Comics vs. a Lorehounds podcast. I'm Alicia. And I'm Jean. And this is our first official DCU kickoff pod. We're going to talk about the first new DCU release, Season 1 of Creature Commandos on HBO Max. But first, we're going to talk about something I know Jean is even more excited about, that Superman trailer that's out there in the interwebs now, and what's next for the new DCU.

[00:02:50] Check out our MCU 2025 preview when you get a chance for everything that's going on in Marvel this year as well. And speaking of which, so the first two episodes of the new Spider-Man show, Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man, are out. First thoughts, Sean? Yeah, you know I wasn't in. I was not in, but now I'm in. I thought the first two episodes were great.

[00:03:19] I like the animation style, the storytelling, this new universe that we're in. And I'm especially interested in Lonnie Lincoln's story. So I want to see where that goes, because it's kind of a different take on the character. So we'll see how he progresses if he goes down the same road that the comic character goes down.

[00:03:46] And then, you know, E, you know, my eight-year-old, is really digging it as well. So that's a plus when he's into something. That's my sign to be like, okay, this is hidden where it should be hidden for his, you know, demo. So, yeah, I'm really excited about it. And I think it's off to a great start. Yeah. Yeah, I also am having a lot of fun with it. Predictably, my favorite character so far is Nico.

[00:04:16] Yeah, who could? Who would have guessed? Yeah. But I just, the new combination of characters is fun and is leaving me intrigued about where it's going. But I'm also, you know, I know we all know the Spider-Man basics so well, especially that's one of like the most adapted characters in films. And so that actually kind of plays a fun way into my expectations.

[00:04:41] So he meets, he helps this guy on the street and then the guy introduces himself as Harry. I'm like, ooh. So I'm having fun with the fact that, you know, it's kind of remixing what we already know. Right, right. And I think they've done it well, actually. You know, I was happy we didn't get bogged down into the first steps as Spider-Man.

[00:05:04] Like he gets, you know, we get through that really quickly and into the action, so to speak, you know, immediately. Which was nice because I wasn't expecting that. So it subverted my expectations in that way as well. But yeah, great start. The episodes were really crisp. I thought the writing was good. It had a good vibe to it.

[00:05:30] And again, the animation style, I wasn't sure I was going to dig watching the trailers. But you know what? It works. And it's really cool to see. It's really nice. Yeah. Well, speaking of trailers, I know there's a trailer that you are especially excited about that came out recently. So the film will be opening July 11th, 2025.

[00:05:55] But we've already gotten our first trailer because I think James Gunn realizes that all the eggs are riding in this Superman basket. So what did you think about the Superman trailer that we've seen so far? I mean, I was so pumped up for it. You know, everything hinges on this. You know, I've said that before, I think.

[00:06:17] So if this flops or is in any way not good, this is going to be a disaster for the DCU. And I was really happy with what I saw. I thought the opening sequence where he just drops and, you know, his mouth is full of blood and he can hardly breathe and you can hear him languishing. And I was like, oh, shit. Okay, what is going on here?

[00:06:46] Yeah, I thought the entire vibe of the trailer was really cool. The music, you know, iconic as well. And then, you know, Krypto. Like, I can't be mad. You know, some people were like, oh, why is Krypto in this? But I must say, when he whistles and there's this, you know, avalanche of, you know, snow that's coming and you can just barely see something in the middle. I looked at E and I was like, oh, that's Krypto.

[00:07:16] He's like, what's Krypto? I was like, dog. And he's like, oh. And his oh was like, oh. You know, like a really an amazement. Like Superman dog. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it worked. And I think that's what we have to, you know, always remember that I'm a grown ass man and I want to love this movie. But this movie has to make another demographic really fall in love with the character. Right.

[00:07:44] And I think from the trailer, that it's really possible. Right. Yeah. This is the Krypto thing is making me, reminding me that I still haven't watched the DC League of Super Pets movie. Oh, yeah. I watched that. It was cool. It was fine. Yeah. I don't know. It looks cute. Yeah. I'll check it out. But I liked that this, yeah, indeed, we got this like broken but still hopeful Superman.

[00:08:10] It was kind of giving like, so we have Dave and Corn Sweat and I think this was great casting, at least from the looks and the presence that we've seen so far. But it's given like grittier Christopher Reeves. Hmm. I mean. Yeah. I was going to say in general, it feels like they are nodding back a lot to that 1979, you know, so that that 1979 John remixed that for our intro that you just heard as we open this episode.

[00:08:39] And also now John Murphy, who is the composer for this Superman film, he is remixing it in the trailers. And it's giving, you know, that they are drawing inspiration from there but updating it in a way that feels modern. So it feels like, you know, with this level of grittiness, it's not like – I know you enjoy the Snyderverse a lot more than I did. Oh, you know my Superman. You know it's Cavill. I know.

[00:09:07] You know Cavill's my forever Superman. But this feels like a just like maybe another version is too goofy, another version is too dark, and this is kind of like the in-between Goldilocks zone version of Superman. I mean, that's a good way to put it. I think watching the trailer, you know, you can't – of course, the movie has to hit, right?

[00:09:33] But watching the trailer, my initial reaction was like, okay, this could work. You know, will he replace Cavill as my forever Superman? I have no idea. Will he be Superman? From the trailer, it looks like yes. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't watch the trailer and be like, oh, this guy stinks. He can't be Superman. Right. Right.

[00:10:00] And yeah, Lois Lane is the character I most identify with in DC Comics. So I have – I feel investment in her being done well, and I think that Rachel Brosnahan was perfect casting. Looks great so far. Like Nicholas Holtz as Lex Luthor is going to be great. I just – I think they nailed the casting. I totally agree. I think the casting is well done. Eddie as Mr. Terrific looks great.

[00:10:29] You know, I think he has the logo, the word, the phrase fair play on his sleeves, which I nerded out to because, you know, that's – yeah. So a lot of little things, a lot of little details. The bowl cut that, you know, Green Lantern had. Right. Which has been the talk of the town when the trailer came out. It was like, what? What's with his hair? And I'm like, yo, that's how it's supposed to be, dude. Relax. Yeah.

[00:10:56] So it looked good, you know. And, yeah, I'm here for the movie. You know, I'm here for the movie. I like – so the Green Lantern that we're getting is going to be played by Nathan Fillion, and that feels like an apology to me for the fact that we didn't get Nathan Fillion as Simon Williams as Wonder Man in Guardians of the Galaxy. Right.

[00:11:20] I'm looking forward to that because we're getting a Green Lantern show later, but that's with two other Green Lanterns. So that means we're going to have three big Green Lanterns in the DCU to start. I mean, and hopefully a lot more because it is the Corps, right? They're the Galactic Police along with, yeah, that's it.

[00:11:42] So I'm glad that they're doing this instead of how Marvel did the Nova Corps, you know, which really – Just became faceless, yeah. Yeah, they were nothing in the grand scheme of Marvel, the MCU, which took out a huge part of Marvel cinematic potential. Well, they are still doing a Nova. They are still doing a Nova. It's coming. It's just so far they haven't done anything with it on screen.

[00:12:12] But the Green Lantern Corps, it looks like they're going to do just more of it. And that's, you know, that's welcome because I think there's a lot of good stories that could come out of those comic books and a lot of good stories that could come from those characters, specifically Jon Stewart, Hal Jordan. Hal Jordan, I said Hal Jordan. Hal Jordan.

[00:12:34] Yeah, so really want to see, you know, like Kilowog and all these other, you know, Green Lantern, Sinestro, you know, just, yeah. Yeah, this is definitely more your world than mine. So I'm going in with a kind of blank slate in a lot of ways. Like I know everybody hated the Green Lantern movie. I thought it was fine. What? I mean, I didn't think it was good. I just was just like, whatever, you know. It was a- Oh, gosh.

[00:13:08] Yeah, I had no reason to hate it. I had no reason to hate it. Right, okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. I have every reason to hate it. Okay, okay. And I hate it. Yeah. Oh, Ryan Reynolds, bless your heart, please. He makes fun of it, so it's fine. Yeah, yeah. As he should. As he should. So I'm not as familiar with a lot of these characters that are coming in because with DC, I haven't really read any of the comics almost. Okay.

[00:13:34] Not with like the main, you know, what you think of like the core Justice League and all that. Right. And yeah, so what I know is mostly through previous movies and TV shows and things like that. I mean, the TV shows, I think, have the cartoons, the animations from the early 2000s. Probably have a lot. I mean, it depends. There's so many. So I've seen some. Justice League. I have not watched that.

[00:14:04] I mean, I obviously know the Justice League in general, but I haven't watched the animated series. Yeah, the animated series is great. Mm-hmm. But I'm excited to get to know Isabella Merced. It's going to be Hawkgirl. And you have to tell me about Metamorpho because Metamorpho is going to be played by Anthony Kerrigan. And I know Anthony Kerrigan from the TV show Barry, where he played Noho Hank. Oh, I didn't realize that.

[00:14:28] I just, I'm so excited to see him again because he was like the best part of an incredible series. I had no idea that No No Hank was, I didn't realize that. Yeah. That's exciting. Yeah. Yeah. So he's, you know, Rex Mason, he's like, he has the power of elements, right? Mm-hmm. He can basically, excuse me, he's really, how do I?

[00:14:58] He can, what's the word, transmutate into any elemental compound, right? Okay. Anything that's found in the human body, he can stretch, he can bounce, he can, you know, basically alter the chemical state of his body. And that's who Metamorpho is. He's like an archaeologist. He's a detective. He's like really skilled at hand-to-hand combat.

[00:15:27] And I think the last major story that he was in was, he was a part of, what was this, Doomsday Clock, which is a story with the DC characters and the Watchmen characters, specifically Dr. Manhattan, which was, you know, a really great story actually. But that's for another part. And then he was also in the Terrific's comic book with Mr. Terrific, who was part of Mr. Terrific's team in the comic.

[00:15:57] They, you know, traveled to alternate universes. I think it was called the Dark Multiverse. And the Dark Multiverse had a large role to play in the future of the DC comics. So he's been around. Okay. Okay. And we also have, Alan Tudyk is in the cast. And we don't know what character Alan Tudyk is playing. He's voiced, like in the series we're about to talk about, he voiced at least three characters, I think.

[00:16:26] Like, so, but I'm wondering if it could be Clayface, because we know we're getting a Clayface movie in 2026 from Mike Flanagan, no less. Huh. Okay. Who? Clay? Hmm. Interesting. Okay. That's possible. Why not? Didn't Gunn say that everyone in the, in all his- Would play their live action parts? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:55] Everyone in the animated series would play the, that same character in live action. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know if that's like set fast in stone, because they haven't made, they've announced the Clayface movie from Mike Flanagan, but they haven't said Alan Tudyk is playing the title role. And Alan Tudyk is, well, so Alan Tudyk plays Clayface in the Harley Quinn series, but that's a very different kind of Clayface. Ah. Ah.

[00:17:22] So, the Clayface in the Harley Quinn series, for anyone who knows, is, is like a kind of comedic lovable role. Right. Whereas, yeah, we'll talk about this DCU version, because he turns up, wow, sorry, spoilers. I was trying not to say it. I was trying my best. I mean, it's, we won't tell you how until we get into it. Yeah, I was trying to couch everything. Goodness gracious.

[00:17:49] And then, okay, so any other thoughts about Superman before we talk about what else is next in DCU? No, I just think like the trailer was great. Yeah. It set up a lot of excitement for myself. And really looking forward to watching the movie, and hopefully they can pull it all through. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I mean, like I've always said, I'm not necessarily a Superman fanatic, but this looks to me like a really intriguing take.

[00:18:17] So, oh yeah, Sean's wearing the shirt, wearing the S. S of my chest. The next one that starts a month after Superman releases, we don't have an exact day, but we know it's starting in August, is the one that I'm really excited about, which is season two of Peacemaker. Which is, it's going to be eight episodes. What are your feelings on, what's your hype level on season two of Peacemaker? I'm excited for it.

[00:18:46] I thought season one was good. I thought it was a really good show. So, I'm not a fan of the character, but I thought the show was really good. Okay. So, yeah, I can definitely see the country. I mean, you're not supposed to necessarily like him. Yeah. But some people do. Okay. Some people do. Some people actually like the guy. Well, I feel pity for him, but you know me. Yeah. I know you're a very soft-hearted, very nice person. Yeah. I'm not.

[00:19:16] I hate him. But I really like the show. I think the show was really well done. The character development throughout the show for the side characters was really well done as well. So, yeah, I'm interested in what they come up with season and season two. Because it's going to take into account what happened in the Suicide Squad movie. Yes. I'm thinking. Yeah. I mean, that was confirmed in Creature Commando.

[00:19:45] Right. And so we'll see what they come up with. And I'm here for it. Yeah. Yeah. We don't know what the schedule is going to be like in late summer, fall quite yet. But as far as I'm concerned, this is one that I would be into doing more coverage on. Okay. All right. Yeah. Well, we'll have to see as we get closer. We'll talk about that. All right. That sounds good. For me, it was one of my top shows, season one, the year it came out.

[00:20:15] And I'm very excited for season two. And I think, yeah, there's a lot of love for this show out there, too. So, yeah, listeners, if you're interested in Peacemaker coverage, perhaps weekly, depending on how things go, let us know. And then in 2026, we have so far two films announced, but I have a feeling there might be more, like probably a TV show or two. But we have Craig Gillespie's Supergirl, which is slated for June 26, 2026.

[00:20:44] And Mike Flanagan's Clayface, slated for September 11th, the film that we were just talking about. And those are the only projects currently scheduled publicly, though we know there's a lot more in development. This is all part of the DCU's Chapter One, Gods and Monsters. So basically, James Gunn got a writer's room together, and they sketched out two overarching chapters for the new DCU. And this is going to be an eight to 10-year plan.

[00:21:13] So spending like four to five years on each chapter. And originally, that included the Superman movie, the Authority movie, the Brave and the Bold movie, Supergirl, and Swamp Thing. But now Clayface has been fast-tracked to near the top of the list because James Gunn says, if there's a good script, that's how it's going to go. So make changes like that. And on the TV show side, Creature Commanders, Waller, about Amanda Waller, who we're about

[00:21:41] to talk about, Lanterns, we were just talking about the Green Lanterns, Paradise Lost, about Themyscira, Wonder Woman's island country, and Booster Gold, and of course, Peacemaker Season 2 is part of that. Which of these are you most excited about? Supergirl. Yeah? Quite honestly, I think... I'm excited for Superman, don't get me wrong. Uh-huh. But the Supergirl film is...

[00:22:08] When everything was announced, that was the film that I was most excited to see. Okay. Because... I'm excited, yeah. The comic that it's based on is so damn good. Okay. Yeah. So if they get 80%, 75% of that to show on screen, that is going to be amazing. Mm-hmm. That is going to be amazing. Yeah.

[00:22:34] So Supergirl, without a doubt, is the one that I'm looking forward to. Okay. Yeah, I was really into that 80s Supergirl movie when I was a kid. I was obsessed with it as a small child, and I know everyone thinks it's terrible, but it does give me a fondness for the character. So I'm excited about that, but predictably, I'm especially excited about the monster stuff, like Swamp Thing, Clayface, The Authority. Like, yes, yes, yes. Yeah.

[00:23:05] Give me my tragic monsters so I can love and protect from the evils of the world. Yeah, let's talk about some tragic monsters. Yeah, here we go. All right. James Gunn. So we're going to start with our spoiler-free hot takes of Creature Commando Season 1 for anyone who's, like, considering, do I want to watch this show or not? And then we'll give you a warning, a spoiler warning, and a commercial break before we get into our actual season breakdown.

[00:23:35] Just a quick overview. Creature Commando's aired between December 5th, 2024, and January 9th, 2025. And it is officially the first DCU project, but it does also confirm that James Gunn's two prior DCU projects, the Suicide Squad film and Peacemaker Season 1 are officially in the DCU. Right?

[00:24:04] So it's the first, but it's also the third? Is that how you take it? I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. First but third. So do you want to set up the plot for us? Sure. So set up in Episode 1, the Kaliwabos, a Black Ops team of monsters assembled by Amanda Waller and placed under the supervision of Rick Flagg Sr. is sent to Pokolistan to protect the ruling princess there from a threat of assassination.

[00:24:34] Chaos ensues. Yeah. So it's seven episodes long, written by James Gunn. Dean Laurie is a showrunner, and he's a really epic producer. So you might know his name from shows like the Harley Quinn show. He's talking about iZombie, Arrested Development, a whole bunch of stuff. Yves Balak-Bigarol is the supervising director. He's a French comics artist and animator best known for the comic book series Last Man.

[00:25:02] And we know that Season 2 is already renewed. Sean, what is your spoiler-free thoughts on the season overall for anyone who hasn't watched? Should they? Yeah, I think you should, because you get an idea of where Gunn kind of wants to go. I thought the casting, the voice acting was great.

[00:25:28] The animation style, the fight sequences, and just like the, even outside of the fight sequences, just the animation was really well done. So yes, I think any fan of comic book stories, you should definitely watch this show. For those of you who may not be inclined to watch comic book stories,

[00:25:51] but are interested to see how Gunn may differ from Snyder, this is a really good entry to that conversation. Yeah. Yeah. But what did you think overall? Yeah. You were less hot on it than I was.

[00:26:19] There were some really, let me just say, there were like two episodes that were really, really great for me. Everything else I felt was mid. Okay. I thought the story was mid. And it's specifically because I have problems with how James Gunn was telling the story of specific characters. Or not telling the story of specific characters.

[00:26:46] So from that viewpoint, from that standpoint, I was disappointed because I went into it not wanting to see a James Gunn type of story unfold. Because as you know, I'm not terribly fond of the previous superhero stories that he's had. But, you know, I still went into it with an open mind.

[00:27:15] And again, some of the character portrayals I have issues with. Definitely. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I generally was more positive about it. I think you and I both agree. Great cast. Great comic book-y animation, art style. I found the character stories much more engrossing.

[00:27:41] But my biggest problem was that it was a short season full of short episodes. So it felt like we just kind of skimmed the surface for all of them. So I was glad to hear about, you know, the season two renewal. And that could play a part in what you just said could play a part in why I feel the way that I feel. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:28:30] Yeah. No, I should watch Doom Patrol. Yeah. And I haven't yet. Yeah, definitely. But this is how I was introduced to Animal Vegetable Mineral Man. And I'm like, what is that? Give me more immediately. Yeah. Doom Patrol is definitely a great watch. Yeah. Yeah. And I do tend to like James Gunn's musical choices. And this was a lot of Gogol Bordello for this show, which I just really enjoyed and thought set the right tone.

[00:28:59] Do have to give a warning that, you know, it's a hyper-violent cartoon. It's not for kids. It's not for kids. Definitely not for kids. And there's some sexy adult time, too. Yes. It's not for kids. And it's not. On the peculiar scale, it's pretty high up. It's pretty high. At least a four. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Any other thoughts on this spoiler-free side of things? No, let's just get into these breakdowns so I can tell you what really bothers me.

[00:29:29] What you really think. All right. Well, I mean, I'll just say that who I would recommend it to is basically, if you want to know all the stuff in the DCU, this is going to tie in to all the other DCU stories to come. So don't count it out just because it's animation. I also think they can do some really cool things because it's animation. We're going to talk about on the other side of the break.

[00:29:56] And if you like comic book storytelling that has a lot of heart and you have a stomach for a bit of sorrow, then definitely check it out. It's short. Like I said, it's quite short. It's like you can watch it in less than the time of two movies, you know? Wow. All right. Let's take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to hear what Jean really thinks.

[00:30:36] Okay. So as you mentioned, Jean, James Gunn wants the same actors to play the DCU characters in both animation and live action. So we're not 100% sure, like we said about Alan Tudyk and Clayface, if that will always be true. But in most cases, if they've already played them in live action, they're playing the animated part here. And we should assume that if they're playing the animated part here, they'll play the live action counterpart.

[00:31:03] And that starts with our first crossover character, Amanda Waller, played by Viola Davis. What are your thoughts about Amanda Waller? What's her background, by the way? Well, she's the director of Argus, the advanced research group Uniting Superhumans, who assembles Task Force M from Belle Reve Penitentiary.

[00:31:25] Task Force X, she is the person behind all of these covert ops teams that you might know of in the DC comics and in the DC universe. Like the Suicide Squad. Yes. And the Peacemaker plot. Yeah. So after what happened in Suicide Squad, Task Force X was shut down. And Waller is no longer able to use humans.

[00:31:55] So after Peacemaker's butterfly fiasco. Do you remember what the butterfly fiasco was? Yes. The alien invasion called butterflies that, sorry, Peacemaker spoilers. Yeah. Oh, we should say spoilers for all of the DCU stuff. But definitely watch season one of Peacemaker if you haven't yet. But yeah, there's an invasion of aliens called butterflies.

[00:32:18] And just like the Suicide Squad, they win, but it turns into a huge public clusterfuck. Right. So she can't use humans anymore for her covert ops. So she turns to what she calls the monsters. She only shows up really sporadically in this series.

[00:32:44] But she plays a very large role in the storytelling of the DC universe. I mean, I feel she's like a connecting thread like Nick Fury in Marvel. A little bit. Yeah, definitely. But I find, you know, she's not so far, at least we in the DCEU before this, and now she's, you know, being brought over to DCU.

[00:33:07] She's kind of like a flat character where we the most we ever see into her is because we meet spoiler again for other stuff. And in Peacemaker, we meet her daughter. And that's really she's like someone who's behind so many walls. I don't know if we'll ever really get to know her. Well, she's been like that in the comics as well. Well, there's going to be a show. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:33:30] So they might take from the portrayal that's been written over the last few years in the comics where you really get to know why she does the things that she does. So that'll be interesting to see if they show this side of her. Right. Because all we know right now is that she's, you know, like this, I guess, what would be she's like a J Edgar Hoover. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:33:57] And we know that they have been developing that a Waller TV show, but now they ended up fast tracking Peacemaker second season ahead of it. So we know all those pieces are going to fit together somehow and they'll tell us. Yeah. But I assume that that will dive more into her background. Speaking of Peacemaker, we have another character, John Economos, played again by Steve Adjie, like in that show.

[00:34:24] And he's the one they, if you watch the show, he's the one they call dye beard. So I really appreciated the detail and the art that they showed. He had the roots, the white roots on his beard. And he had a hurt leg in this because he hurt his leg at the end of Peacemaker season one, where he was, he's like, I heard it fighting aliens. He's like, no, actually he tripped over like a low fence or something when he was trying to run and help the people fight the aliens. Yeah.

[00:34:54] Were you glad to see him back? Yeah. I liked this character. I thought he was hilarious. You know, he was hilarious and he was someone that I pulled for. And I hope I still get to pull for him. You know, I don't want him to change. No, no. Into someone that I dislike. No. I think he's a key part of the chemistry in Peacemaker. So, yeah. But here he and Amanda are kind of like the people in the chair.

[00:35:24] Yes. And then. That's why I said that. Why? What do you mean? Because I think he is, he's really close to Amanda. Hmm. Hmm. You're afraid she'll influence him. Yeah. Hmm. But yeah, they're, they're really the people in the chair and they have Rick Flagg Sr. played by Frank Grillo is who is, um, the one who's leading the new task force M on the field.

[00:35:51] And he's the father of, we saw in the suicide squad, the one with Starro, the big starfish. Um, we saw his son, Joel Kinnaman die. He was killed by Peacemaker. So that's, and they brought that up in this show. Kind of, I think they're setting up an ugly confrontation later. What do you think? Yeah, probably. In Peacemaker, the TV show. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:21] And they, um, they really kind of leaned into the cartoon sex appeal of this character. Yeah. They went full HBO in some scenes. Yeah. Uh, I, I didn't care for it. No? No, I didn't care for it. I thought the one sex scene went on a little too long. Like, okay, we get it. Yeah, I think. I'm like, Rick Flagg Sr., get a grip, man. Like, come on, bro. Well, I think we were supposed to feel like, what are you doing? Like, can't you tell she's, she's a bad one?

[00:36:49] Yeah, not only that, but he's like 60 years old. Get a grip, man. Oh, come on. 60 year olds can have sex? Yes, they can. And she's what? 21? Oh, I don't, well, I don't know. I would assume she's the same age as an actress. So like 30, I was thinking 30s. I was thinking 20, 21, 22. I think 30s. I think 30s. Let's see, what's, what's, what's the actress's age again? Because they use directly. But you can't, you can't, you can't take that because, you know.

[00:37:19] Yeah, no, but they use directly, like, they made her, well, it's Pocolo, what is it? Pocolo. Pocolostan. Pocolostan, thank you. So Maria Bakalova is her, is her name. And she's the one from the most, I didn't even see it, the most recent Borat movie. But she also plays Cosmo the dog in, in, in Guardians of the Galaxy. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. And she is, let me see, how old is she?

[00:37:49] Oh, she was born in 1996, which makes her, math fail on me now, which makes her like 38? I'm not going to help you out. 34. 34. Okay. Wait. 29. 29. 29. We all fail math. Okay.

[00:38:18] So in between what both of us said, we're both right. But yeah, but I do think that Rick Flagg was the second most moral character after Nina and maybe Weasel. What? Who else was more moral other than Nina and Weasel? There were no moral. You don't think Nina and Weasel? And GI Robot. Oh, yeah, Robot. Yeah. He's amoral kind of.

[00:38:49] He has a strong moral compass in it to finding Nazis even if they may or may not be there and then killing them. I'm okay with that. Okay. Okay. So Rick Flagg, he's like the ostensible leader. You know, he's the human wrangler, so to speak. But I think the real leader of the group is the bride played by Indira Varma. Do you agree? Yes. Yes. And I thought she was the...

[00:39:19] She might have been one of the, if not the emotional center of the show. Yeah. No, that's a good point. That's a good point. Her story was the focus of episode two, the tourmaline necklace. Do you want to recap what happened in her backstory? Oh, yeah. She was brought to life by Victor Frankenstein at the behest of Eric Frankenstein, the monster.

[00:39:41] And Frankenstein, Eric, chases her from the beginning until the very end. But we know he's not dead, but still. Yeah. Chases her throughout the decades, throughout the centuries, because he's in love with her. And he has to make her see that she's in love with him. And yeah, she was in love with their creator, Victor Frankenstein, who was married and had a family down the street.

[00:40:12] Creepy vibes, man. I'm telling you, there's something. Yeah. Rick Frag Senior. But this is very... Victor Frankenstein. So this version of Eric Frankenstein is less based on the comic books, apparently. And it is more based on something I am more familiar with, which is Mary Shelley's novel, Frankenstein. I don't think so. It is. I know he said so, but I don't think so. No, but I mean, I'm familiar with... I'm telling you as someone who knows this novel well, it is. I saw that as soon as I was watching.

[00:40:42] But why do you say that? Because in this show, the monster has not come to terms with any sort of actions that he's done. I think in the novel, you can see... By the end, maybe a bit. By the end, yes. But he does kill his creator in the same way he does here. Correction. The monster killed Victor's brother, William.

[00:41:11] So he strangled William and Victor died of hypothermia. Okay. Just the pedantic self in me had to make sure I got that right. Bye. And he does... With no remorse. He makes leave a friend, this blind man, and ends up... He ends up doing things... Okay, so it's a different personality, obviously, in this David Harbour version. But there's a lot of the... Yes, I recognize that. The skeleton of the plot beats.

[00:41:40] The outlines are there, yes. But the beats, right? For what he said, he's based this character on the novel. Having read the novel, this character that we've seen in the show, to me, is very one-sided. There's no complexity.

[00:42:08] There's no complexity to his character. To me. I completely disagree. And this is... So this was the episode five thing, so we're jumping ahead a little bit, but since we're talking about this... I know that you... I know you and I have discussed this already, but I find him to be the most complex character in the entire show. I just... You don't know. There is something in there that's... Where he will do something.

[00:42:37] He kills the woman who saves his life and nurses him back. Yes. Out of a sort of pity. It's just... He has his moral compass is just whirling in circles. And there is like a sad desperation to him, but he doesn't know. He's like this tragic monster figure that I love, but also combined with like a petulant prince who just is so scary because of that.

[00:43:07] Because it's like, oh, he's being nice to me now, but he might just snap and kill everyone in the two mile radius in a second. He sounds like every male character that James Gunn comes up with that I don't appreciate. When you said the petulant prince, that is exactly what he is. But that's not who Star-Lord is.

[00:43:34] Star-Lord is the petulant prince side, but he's not the murderer. Of course not. I'm not calling him the murderer. And I'm not saying that the actions that the Frankenstein monster novel takes is any different from the actions that Eric Frankenstein in this show takes. I'm not calling that into dispute. I'm not saying they don't both do horrible acts at all. I recognize that. But coming from different places.

[00:44:02] I feel from very drastic different places. And I just feel like this portrayal is a very specific portrayal that pays homage to that side of the character. And if you've read the book, right? Mm-hmm. You know the book. Mm-hmm. It's not as simple as that. And I thought this character was very similar for me.

[00:44:28] Yeah, maybe this does come back to, I thought it was the most complex character in this show. But I'm not saying it has the same complexity as a 300-page novel or whatever. So maybe this comes back to what I was saying. My biggest complaint about this is how because of the short run times. Like I think it's, what, seven half-hour episodes. Three and a half hours in runtime in total were just skimming the surface with all these.

[00:44:56] And some of these stories felt like, we'll get in a little bit to the last one. But some of these felt like there was, it was almost a disrespect by moving so quickly through some of these stories. Yeah, and I think that's part of what I said with the character development or lack thereof. Right? So watching this, all I can see in Eric Frankenstein is the monster. Mm-hmm. Right? Okay. There's nothing else to him.

[00:45:24] No matter all the other stuff that's going on around how we want to say he's tortured or whatever, whatever the case may be. There is a level of empathy that is not, that I cannot extend to this character. Okay. Okay. Because it's not there. There's nothing to make me feel empathetic about. Right.

[00:45:54] I mean, yeah. And then we know that I'm more likely to, because remember Penguin, remember Penguin, where I'm like, no. And then at the end, they shoved it in my face. Yes. Yeah. You have to not, right. Yeah. And I think what threw me when Gunn said he based the character off the novel and watching that, and I felt there was no way, there was nothing that gave me pause about the monster.

[00:46:25] How could it be that you drew, that you're drawing from the novel? That's what I'm saying. Yeah. It just didn't equal to me. Yeah. That statement and what I saw was not something that was born from the novel. That was born from a part of the novel. Yeah. Right. I hear some sirens. Someone's coming to get you for these opinions. James Gunn is coming for me.

[00:46:52] But yeah, it was definitely born from the novel. Mm-hmm. But it's not, the inspiration is just basic. Mm-hmm. Basic inspiration. That's all it is. It's basic. Basic. And that was a disappointment. All right. I agree to disagree, because I do still find him the most intriguing character in the show. Who's left? Who's left? Who's left?

[00:47:22] But, and we should say, by the way, that he's played by David Harbour, who's a favorite of both of ours. He did a great job. Don't get me wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is great. No, his deliveries are just- Awesome. Between being like buddy-buddy and like completely menacing, you're like, yeah. Just did a great job. Yeah. And I have to say, the end of the second episode, that whole frankenchase through time where, you know, going through all the different periods and the way that was animated. That was fun. And like all of the fun references in it and stuff. Yes, that was not so fun.

[00:47:52] Because they released the first two episodes together. And so that end of the second episode was when I was like, all right, I'm all in. No, it was really well done. And that's what I mean. Some of the animation was A plus, you know. But for me, just some of the storytelling didn't hit. And Eric Frankenstein's story is one of the major disappointments for me. Okay. Okay.

[00:48:19] Well, the focus of episode three called Cheers to the Tin Man was GI Robot played by Sean Gunn. And this, I saw he see you wrote- Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure, sure. And the story of the bride and how Victor Frankenstein, you know, groomed her. Mm-hmm. Right? It's creepy.

[00:48:46] Is so terrible. And for a character that they developed as much as they did, there was no sense of that.

[00:48:59] But this is like, this is part of what I was- the bride side of the story is a lot what I was thinking about the novel, about how there was, you know, that the question in the novel becomes who is the monster, Frankenstein or his creation? And I thought that this brought that up well in a way where you see why from the bride's perspective, you know, he's her whole world, literally. He's the one who taught her everything she knows.

[00:49:30] But then from those of us who have experienced more of life, we see that and we go, eee. Right, right. But at some point, having lived over 200 years, right? At what point do you say has she even attempted to deal with that? I don't think that she is someone who confronts her feelings.

[00:49:56] I think she literally runs- she runs from Eric Frankenstein and she runs from her feelings and- Well, her feelings are known about Eric Frankenstein. Yeah, no, no, I know. She runs from- She's not running from- Right. She's- She's not running from her feelings. She just doesn't want to be in his presence. No, I'm saying she just runs. That's just her thing of doing. That's how she handles things. She fights or she runs. And she can't fight her feelings, so she runs from them.

[00:50:24] But I just think that was another underdeveloped story. Well, I mean, yeah, because it's so- there's not so much time. But I thought I was really into that story, I'm going to be honest. No, I left her story, but I think it was really an underdeveloped story. And I think if you're going to do these things, you can't have them underdeveloped. Hmm. I think it should have been a longer season. And I'm usually the one who gets annoyed with people like, yes, everything should be longer. But in this case- I think that's warranted.

[00:50:54] I think it's really- It's needed for- It should have been longer because maybe you could have fleshed out some of these things and I wouldn't feel a good way. Or narrow the initial team. Right. And say we start with a team of four just so we can go deeper with them and then add more. Right. But yeah. Yeah, I get it. Also, I know how time-consuming and expensive animation is to me. Yes, that's true too. Yeah.

[00:51:22] Well, I think we have less contentious feelings. I think we're more on the same page about G.I. Robots, played by Sean Gunn, who is the focus of episode three, Cheers to the Tin Man. What's his story? So yeah, he's a Nazi-killing robot from World War II. What else is there to say? I mean, I think he's looking for friendship. He's looking for family, obviously. You can see that in the episode that he features in.

[00:51:52] And deep cut, he will Magnus, which is part of the Metal Men, and played by Alan Tudyk. Again. Who's everywhere. Will Magnus. Yeah, in the comics, he invented the Metal Men, which was a favorite of James Gunn. So apparently, James Gunn is implying here that he based a future Metal Men, I presume will be in the DCU. He based them off of studying G.I. Robot?

[00:52:21] I don't know. I guess that's what they implied, right? That's what they implied. So we'll see if the Metal Men do actually show up in Gunn's universe. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and you mentioned looking for friends and family. We got that whole story about where he felt that camaraderie as a World War II soldier. And then he's just, but he's programmed to see a Nazi, kill a Nazi. So he starts looking for Nazis everywhere.

[00:52:51] And part of this wanting to kill Nazis is to find that camaraderie. So we got another tragic story where he finally, he finds someone who seems to treat him with that camaraderie. And then he realizes that he is actually a Nazi and kills his entire Nazi meeting. Right. And that's how he ends up with Task Force M. Yeah. I don't think he's a monster, though. Mm-hmm. No. No. He's literally doing what he was programmed to do.

[00:53:21] Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, we saw him get taken out in the season. But I mean, it was version two. It had like a two on him. I knew that he was going to show up at the end. And sure enough, we see like a bigger, badder version at the end in the final scene. Yeah, that was welcome. I liked GR Robot. I would have been pissed if he hadn't come back. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Me too. Me too. But was the next character, Weasel, your favorite?

[00:53:51] No. No? No, not my favorite. But quite possibly the saddest. But your favorite episode, I mean? No, not my favorite. Okay. It was one of the saddest things I've ever seen. Oh my gosh. Oh my goodness gracious. This was...

[00:54:13] I'm struggling for words to describe the level of sorrow that viewing that caused me. It was really bad. You know, it was really bad. I had to tell the tear, no, no, get back up. No, you don't come down my cheek. You roll right back into my eyes. That's it. We're not crying. We're not doing this. So, so, so sad.

[00:54:42] The weasel. Oh. So, weasel, aka John Doe, in the Suicide Squad, when they had him as John Monroe on paper, which is his name in the comics. This one also played by Sean Gunn. Sean Gunn and Alan Tudyk play everyone in the show. Yeah. So, his whole story, he was accused of killing a bunch of children. We heard that back in the Suicide Squad, even.

[00:55:10] And now we find out that he was actually trying to save them. And it was a bunch of overzealous, you know, men's with guns, cops, yeah, who ended up, you know, getting all these kids killed just by making a dangerous situation and panicking about weasel. And being more concerned about killing him than saving the kids, basically.

[00:55:33] Well, the first, you know, men with guns is the person that saw him and went to report him, you know, without knowing anything. Just saw what he figured was a monster trying to eat kids and just, you know, went out and said, I don't know what's going on. And then there's this thing that's kidnapped these kids and it's going to eat them or kill them or whatever.

[00:56:01] And couldn't have been further from, farther from the truth. Mm-hmm. And just really, you know, set everything into motion by, you know, stepping into a situation where he wasn't needed. Yeah. Yeah. Really, really, really sad to see how he was so intent on saving that last girl. Mm-hmm.

[00:56:31] And then to get shot down. Yeah. In that attempt. That was heartbreaking. Yeah. That was heartbreaking. So his lawyer, Elizabeth Bates, I guess she's known as Betty Bates in the comics. But are we supposed to understand, is she the kid that got away at the beginning of all that? I'm not sure. Maybe. I'm not even sure. Because it was a dark-haired girl who seemed to get away before the fire started and all the other kids ended up dying.

[00:57:02] So I was wondering if, because that would explain then why she's so invested in- In his defense. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Weasel was, I thought he was a fun, funny part of the Suicide Squad. And then it looks like he went down at the beginning of that movie. And then we had the credit scene where we saw him running off like, yay, he lives. So it was great to see him back.

[00:57:28] And then now we know, yeah, now we could ever look at him as the same because we know this whole tragic backstory. Yeah, we know his story. Yeah. He really has a tender heart. Which is what the show should have done for all their characters. Well, I think they tried to, but not all the characters. They tried to. I mean, we're getting back to, so the next episode is episode five, The Iron Pot. And that is the one that focuses on Eric Frankenstein. And I don't think he does not have the tender heart that Weasel does. No.

[00:57:57] I don't even think the bride does really has a tender heart. No, I don't think so. No, not at all. They try to give her one. Well, I don't know. I mean, they tried to make her empathetic, but I don't think, I think she's like, has really hardened herself. Like I said, running from her feelings, but. What are those feelings? I know that. What are the bride's feelings? Yeah.

[00:58:22] Well, the complicated feelings toward her master who she, her creator who taught her everything and she loves, but now with, as you say, centuries of perspective, she's like, oh, wait a minute. You were actually kind of a cheating scumbag who was grooming me. But still, that doesn't take away the fact that he literally created her world and she loves him. You've learned all of that from the series? Yes. Oh, man. Yes.

[00:58:52] That's what I got from her episode. Okay. And then, I mean, her feelings toward Eric Frankenstein are not at all complicated. She's like, get the hell away from me. No. Just not that. You brought up another point that I've been thinking about since, and I don't know which side I fall on it about. Go ahead.

[00:59:16] We have, so we see Eric Frankenstein with two older women in, you know, older Eastern European stereotypes. Yes. And you were like, why do they have to be stereotypes like that? I'm like, well, but I also know women who literally, you know, dress like that and, you know, are those women. But I think it falls in that uncanny valley between, are we, yeah, veering maybe uncomfortably close to stereotyping. Yeah. I thought it was a stereotype of Roma peoples.

[00:59:48] I just, you know, because that's what I've seen on screen, you know, ad nauseum when we talk about or show Roma peoples. Right. But, so, I don't even know if, I think, did they say she was Roma? They didn't say. They didn't even say, but I immediately assumed. But I don't think that she's meant to be Roma.

[01:00:15] I think she's just meant to be, you know, like an Eastern European, yeah, peasant grandmother. Yeah. I mean, not literally a grandmother. She's a dog. Right. But, yeah. Yeah. Just, it didn't feel, it didn't feel right for me. Hmm. Okay. I'd be curious if anyone else who watched has any thoughts or feelings about that portrayal of Bogdana. We touched a bit already on the messed up story where she saves him and then she's like, I don't want to be left alone. He's like, oh, don't worry. I won't leave you alone.

[01:00:44] And then kills her and takes her dog. Who, where's the dog? Tell me where the dog is. We know where the dog is. No, I mean, I think he loved the dog. I don't think he hurt the dog. The dog probably just, you know, died of old age, but. Are we sure about that? I don't know. Or he got the dog killed in some stupid thing. But then at the, we also, we know there's gaps in his story missing, obviously.

[01:01:09] But we also see there's another woman who we see at the start of the series and another older Eastern European woman who is spying. And she's the one who sees that the bride has come back to, was it Pocosta? Am I saying right? I thought it was, wasn't it the same woman? It was not the woman who took care of him. I know, I know. I know, I know. Yeah, I know, I know. They didn't differentiate. They didn't differentiate. And then at the end, she's nursing him back.

[01:01:35] And I'm like, first of all, lady, do you know what happened to the last one who helped him? Second of all, yeah, where did she come from and why is he collecting? Like, uh, elderly Eastern European women. It's so, so problematic. I'm sorry. I can't. I couldn't with that whole entire trail. I mean, but he's supposed to be problematic. But, uh, yeah, I don't know. Um, I did enjoy with Eric Frankenstein his whole thing where he thinks that he's now best friends

[01:02:05] as Rick Flagg because Rick Flagg's like, if you come be my muscle to help me with my whole trying to clear the princess thing, I will, uh, put in a good word for you with the bride. So now he's telling everyone we're best friends. We're best friends. I don't know. David Harbour is, is great. Yeah. He is. He is really good at this. He is really good at this. Hmm. But okay.

[01:02:31] So Eric Frankenstein, whether or not you think he's a complicated character, our combined feelings about him are complicated. Well, I guess maybe that's what it's supposed to be. Is it supposed to be that way? Yeah. I think so. I think so. How do you feel about Dr. Phosphorus, aka Alex Sartorius, played again by Alan Tudyk?

[01:02:55] I thought he was possibly the truest villain in the show. Besides Amanda Waller. Like, I can see why he is in Belle Reve. Right. Okay. For the other characters, not so much. Right. For him, absolutely. He should be locked up. Yeah.

[01:03:21] So he was the focus of episode six, Priyatel Skelet, which it means skeleton friend in Russian or a friendly skeleton in Bulgarian. What's his backstory in this show? So he receives funding from a mob boss, Rupert Thorne, to develop a cure for cancer. Using nuclear fusion. Until Alex realizes his true intentions and betrays him.

[01:03:48] So Thorne has Alex's family killed, frames them for his crimes, and tries to kill Alex with his own nuclear equipment. Instead, he becomes a radioactive metahuman. He kills Thorne and takes over his crime empire. Yeah. So he's one who, he lost his family and he lost all of his fucks too. Yeah. Totally out the window. Can I just say something? I hated the dance scene.

[01:04:19] The dancing? Really? What? I hated it. What? I hated it. I didn't, I was confused to why he was dressed like a pimp. Yeah. I was, yeah, I did not. I don't remember that scene as well, I guess. Yeah. He had like a purple. Yeah. That's ringing a bell. Almost like a zoot suit type of outfit.

[01:04:43] You know, it was very, I was just like, it came out the blue because, and I'm just like, what, what is this? So I did not, that's the one thing I did not enjoy about Phosphorus's story, but I thought they told the story that shows why this guy belongs where he was at. Where Amanda Waller found him is exactly where he should be. Hmm.

[01:05:11] I mean, yeah, again, you know, I feel some empathy for the fact he had his entire family killed. Oh yeah, absolutely. Yes. Yes. My favorite moment with him was, so in this episode that focuses on him, episode six, he meets a child and the child is clearly reminding him of his own son. And the child is the one who's saying that to Prieta's skeleton, you know, it was like friendly skeleton. And he's like, why? And then he realizes the child's like laughing and smiling.

[01:05:40] And he says at the end, like, oh, it looks like I'm smiling too, but I'm not. And that line has just haunted me ever since. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great line. That is a great line. But yeah, his story was really key. He was really, I really liked that they, how they showed how his strategy really sent him off the deep end. Mm-hmm.

[01:06:08] You know, really changed who he was as a person, as a human being. And now he's just, like you said, gives no fucks. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then this brings us to something that I know we're both mad about. We can be mad about this together. The final episode is episode seven, A Very Funny Monster. And the focus of that episode is the final member of the team, Nina Matsurski, who's played by Zoe Chow.

[01:06:38] And yeah, what's Nina's story? So, in flashbacks, Nina is born with her lungs outside her body. Her father, Edward, builds a device to help her breathe before experimenting on her, only to turn her into a metahuman. Bullied, she runs off to live in the sewers. Her father is shot in front of her when she is branded a monster. And he tries to help her, yeah. Yeah. And, yeah.

[01:07:07] You want to say why you're upset before I say why I'm upset? I just, I'm big mad. I'm big mad with James Bond about this. Like, yeah. Mega mad. I just feel like they were using her as tragedy porn. Okay, so just to recap to remind people what happens at the end is she, because she's the swimmy one, she is sent to kill the princess while the princess is swimming.

[01:07:34] And instead, the princess kills her. And I've always had a bad vibe about the princess from the jump. So, I'm like. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it feels like we waited until the very end of the series to learn anything about Nina. I was waiting the whole time, very excited about her, because I love an empathetic character who's, you know, just trying to figure out how to be part of this rough and tumble team when that's not really who she is. And instead, we get this whole, like, again, the nice one has to die trope.

[01:08:05] You know, I didn't want to kill her. I was forced. Did you think she was French? I mean, maybe a little bit for the bride. It does seem like, like, when asked about this, James Gunn is like, well, sometimes death is senseless. I'm like. Can you imagine he said that? Like, what are you talking about, guy? What are you talking about? I mean, it's true. Sometimes death is senseless. But you were also writing the story. You wrote the story. You can kill her.

[01:08:33] But give me, like, don't just, like, jam it all into one episode when she's just, like, the helpful background character for the rest of the season. Like, at the very least, they should have started with her story and made her, like, an emotional through line. And then, like, it hit me hard when she died, but it hit me in an angry way. Not in a no, but like a no. Yes, yes, yes. I absolutely think she was French. And it infuriated.

[01:09:03] Because she was there the entire season. The only reason she was there was to try to give the bride a heart. To soften her up. Yeah. That's the only reason she existed in this show. Right. And the minute that you got an inkling of who she was, she died. Done. Yeah. Yeah. And the bride is left to deal with those, with the fallout. So then her story, yeah.

[01:09:32] You know, how to come to grips with it. Yeah. You know how I feel about, like, a character story, like, when we were talking about it with the Joker movie, you know, where it's just, there's no bright spots. It's only endless tragedy. And that's the story she got. Yeah. And why was she even in Belle Reade? Because. What did she do? Because she was a mom. Well, I think that's fair. Yeah. That's a commentary on humans. Right. Or just people. Just. You know. Which we see something different. Lock it up. You know.

[01:10:04] And why was she not, let me not say why was she even in Belle Reade? Why was she on the team? Why was she chosen by Waller? Yeah. Because she can swim. She has no history. Of violence. No inkling. Inkling of violence. She's done nothing. I think she was meant to be the brains. But they underutilized that aspect. When? I. Yeah. They mentioned that like in the beginning.

[01:10:31] And I expected to, because she's Dr. Nina Mazursky. I didn't even hear that part. Yeah. That's how. It went over my head. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Why is she here? I think she's the most. Why was she chosen? She's the most underserved character on the show, I would say. Underserved. Undeserved. Underserved. It made no sense to the overall story of, you know, what Amanda Waller does. Who she looks for.

[01:11:01] Mm-hmm. To be part of these covert operations. I think she. Amanda Waller just sees them all as expendable. So she doesn't care if she dies. No. She doesn't care if she dies. But she does care if the mission is successful. Yeah. Why would you put this person on a mission? On a mission to go kill someone. Mm-hmm. That's not in her wheelhouse. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So the only thing I could come up with is that she was in this show strictly to give the bride a heart.

[01:11:33] I mean, I do think that's the way. I don't. I think that's not how the writers would say. You know, Will James Gunn is. Nope. Nope. They wouldn't say it. But I think you are. Yeah. I think you're right. That functionally, that's what it boils down to. That's upsetting. I agree. I agree. That's upsetting. This is, for me, by far the biggest stumble in this episode. And it's not. Like, I watch so many shows where characters die.

[01:12:00] And, you know, and I, it's not like I'm just upset because she died. I just think I don't like the way she was used. And I think this is unused. Yes. She was used. Yeah. She wasn't used by the characters in the show. She was used by the showrunners. And I just expected so much more from, I don't know. Yeah. I guess we already, you can't have two scientists because we have dark phosphorus. But God forbid.

[01:12:29] Who's a homicidal maniac. Exactly. It makes sense that he's on the team. Yeah. It's the nice, the nice one has to die trope. But it drives me crazy. Like, nice people can also, aren't, you know, just fodder for the canon. Right. Yeah. Anyway. It was a very disappointing ending for me to the series. To the season. Right.

[01:12:56] Like, it left a really bad taste in my mouth for the overall show. The ending. Her ending. Her ending. Yeah. And it makes me question if, you know, if this is going to be something to watch out for in these upcoming projects.

[01:13:18] Because, like I said, you know, we have, for me, a relationship with Rick Flagg Sr. and someone who's probably 40 years younger than him. And we have the grooming of the bride. And we have the fridging of Nina. All in one series. There is a high level of ick toward the female characters. I'll give you that. All in one series.

[01:13:48] And I'm not here for that. Well, I mean, I'm very excited for season two. But we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we're going to discuss more the villains of the series. And then also what they've set up for season two and the rest of the DCU. So we'll be right back.

[01:14:21] Okay. And we're back. Speaking of baddens. So Princess Ilana Rostovic. She, again, played by Maria Bakalova. And she got the sexy scenes with Rick. They gave us that whole love story. But how do you think... So now we have this complicated situation where Rick definitely had developed feelings for her by the end. And he was trying to prove that she was innocent.

[01:14:52] But then we kind of know... And she set it up with this whole thing with Clayface. So we talked about Clayface shows up. He was pretending to be this... Wait, I wrote her name down. Where did I put her name? The professor. Yeah. Oh, Isla McPherson. Okay, yes. Yeah, so Isla McPherson played by Stephanie Beatrice, who you might know from Brooklyn Nine-Nine.

[01:15:20] She was a professor who went to Amanda Waller. And she said, you know, Cersei... We haven't really talked about Cersei yet. But she has these visions. And that the princess is going to kill everyone, basically. So we got to kill her first. And that's why Cersei is trying to kill the princess.

[01:15:42] And Amanda Waller trusts Isla McPherson until Rick Flagg and Eric Frankenstein find out that she's been killed and replaced by Clayface. But I... And so Clayface, for anyone who doesn't know, he is a villain who can morph into... Like, pretend to be anyone. Because he can change his shape and voice. And yeah, he's a shapeshifter.

[01:16:09] Do we think that, first of all, he killed Isla McPherson after she talked to Amanda Waller? Because she wasn't behaving that weird when she talked to Amanda Waller like we saw her in the classroom where she was, like, hitting on the student and stuff. That was definitely Clayface. Right. Um... I hadn't thought about that. But... Thinking... I think afterwards. Yeah.

[01:16:38] I think after we initially meet her is when he did the deed. So I think they were trying to... So I think... My interpretation is that the princess is the one who hired Clayface, but she wanted people to think Cersei hired Clayface to do this. Yes. Yes. And, um... And so who is Cersei in general? Played here by Anya Chalotra. She's one of Wonder Woman's major foils.

[01:17:08] Yeah. That's as good as it gets. She's a highly practiced magician. You know, sorceress, sorcerer, however you want to call it. Witch. Um... And she... Yeah. She's generally a badass in DC comics. And, um... Is she... She kind of... Is she... She kind of falls more on the villain side more often, I get this? No, no, no. She's squarely a villain.

[01:17:37] She's squarely a villain. Never... Yeah. Because here, there... It feels like it's complex. Like, she's obviously going about things in a way that makes her look... She's a sorceress. And, um... She's throwing magic at people on the evening news. That's going to make her look pretty villainous. And we find out that Themyscira in this version of this reality was only recently discovered by the outside world. And a lot of people don't even seem to fully believe in it. They're like, oh, okay.

[01:18:05] They say that there's this, like, magical lady place where... Um... But we do know that we're going to get a Paradise Lost series coming in a few years. Right. So... That's probably going to maybe lead up to this point? Yeah, so... Because we know that's a Diana prequel? That is definitely something that I'm hoping to see. Um... That background.

[01:18:29] And hopefully we get to see a lot more of Themyscira and the Greek mythology that surrounds, you know, Wonder Woman. Right. Yeah. And here she's kind of like... She's cast as this Cassandra character, you know, where she sees doom and nobody believes her. Um... But then there's also... Then they cast doubt on whether she's faking it.

[01:18:55] But in the end, my interpretation is that that was genuine, which she saw about, uh, the princess killing the world. Did you read that the same way? Yes. Definitely. Definitely. And we saw signs of her being nice. Like, at the end of... She fought, uh, the bride and Nina in episode two, and she beat them both. Um... But at the end, like, she fixed the bride's arms after turning them into, like, balloon animals.

[01:19:22] And she left Nina in water so she could breathe. So, you know, it's interesting you say she's always a villain. I wonder if they're casting her in a more gray light in the DCU? Mm... I don't know. I don't know. Because she would make such a great villain. You know, so I... My hope is that's not the case. Um...

[01:19:52] Yeah. I think she would be a great foil to have on screen for Diana. She could be a foil still while still being morally gray. Yeah. Yeah, that's true, too. That's true, too. But I don't want her... I don't want any hints of altruism when it comes to her. I mean, we saw some hints of altruism. Yeah, I know. We saw bits of that. But, yeah, I just... I want her to be a villain through and through. What do you think her motivation in this series is?

[01:20:22] In the, you know... I don't know. The Future Commando series. I don't know. I wish I could tell you. Because we didn't get enough of her to really know what her motivation is. Is she trying to save the world? I don't know. Yeah. Hmm. Well, I think... Yeah, her whole thing with the princess, it puts... I find... Yeah, the princess puts a sort of interesting moral quandary forward about Rick Flagg, Frank Grillo's character. Um...

[01:20:51] In that he fell for her. And he had reason to believe that she was framed. And we, as viewers, we know that, first of all, like, we know she made a really demonic-looking face when she killed Nina. So, like, that was kind of... That felt like a shortcut for any stragglers in the back. Like, this lady is bad. Bad princess, bad. Bad princess, bad.

[01:21:47] Bad princess, bad princess, bad princess, bad princess, bad princess. That's a good idea. But just from who the character has been traditionally, I can't imagine that she was just being helpful. Hmm. Okay. Okay. What's... Yeah, Rick is going to be really mad at the bride, by the way, for killing Alana. Well, I... Even though... Or do you think... Or... They get over it. Yeah. I mean, Alana did kill... Exactly. Did kill Nina. No, but...

[01:22:16] You'll get over it. We'll see. We'll see. I'm not a fan of the strict flag senior guy. I'm not... No? No. I'm not a fan of this. Not a fan of this. Okay. I gotta say something. Okay. I'm not a fan. No. No. What's interesting also is now Pakolistan, so we have... She's been killed. And also, she had this aging father. I thought we were going to find out that she was poisoning her father or something. He was really out of it.

[01:22:44] Maybe now that she's dead, maybe her father will snap out of whatever's wrong with him. But now all of... Oh, you think maybe she put a spell on him? Well, not a spell per se, but maybe she was poisoning him or doing something to drugging him, basically. Oh. So that she could rule. But now Alexei, her number two, and all of her amethyst knights are gone. So that leaves a power vacuum in this country.

[01:23:11] Which maybe we see something upcoming in the DC universe on July 11th, 2025. Is Pakolistan in that? Because we're talking about two other countries. They say the names. They did say the names, though. They did. They said the names? I don't remember if they said the names. Yeah. Because I know it's the... Yeah. I know. But I'm not as well...

[01:23:38] I don't remember the names because I'm not as well versed in the DCU fake countries as I am in the Marvel fake countries. But they said even that it's... Shoot. Yeah. Now I forget. One starts at the B and they're invading the other one that actually... Oh, yeah. You're right. They did say... It was... Hold on. Hold on. Bialia, I think, is the one that's invading... And what was the other one?

[01:24:07] Because they actually dropped the name of the other one and one of the soldier guys said that Rick Flagg served with him in this other country. None of the Easter eggs. Nobody said anything. What? Oh, okay. It's a rumor. It's a rumor that it's Bialia. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. I don't think they said it. Oh, but that's from two years ago. So... No.

[01:24:36] But that is what I heard. That it was... And then the other one is the one that they named dropped at the beginning of this series. Yeah. Everything that I'm seeing so far is just saying Warzone. Warzone. Okay. And not naming the Warzone. Maybe it will be Pekulistan. That would be a good way to draw this together. Yeah. I don't think they said Pekulistan. No. I mean... No, I thought they said a different... But I...

[01:25:05] So Bialia was a rumor, at least. We'll see. We'll see how it pans out in the movie. But I had the feeling that it was Middle Eastern-based, also based on the trailer. So... Rather than Eastern European. Hmm. But we'll see. They... Yeah. They definitely left this open. Maybe for season two, at least, obviously. But we'll see if anything else addresses it, like Peacemaker or anything else. Right. All right. But regardless, yeah.

[01:25:35] We have this power vacuum there. We have the bride who's lost her only friend. What do you think is going to happen with the bride next season? Well, she's set up to be the leader of the team. Right. So whoever else is on the team will see. And definitely, like you said, I think they set up a confrontation between her and Rick Flagg Sr. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:26:05] And I wonder if we'll get back. There was also... She and Nina end up in a brothel at one point hiding out. There's this whole brothel in her loop. Oh, yes. Yes. That's right. And Shora Agdashlu plays like the madam of the brothel who... She's... People know her first from The Expanse. She's going to be in the upcoming season of The Wheel of Time. She's in everything. So I'm wondering if... And she's great at it. Yeah. I mean, she's... We all love her. That's why they keep putting her... Oh, and she was in The Penguin too. Yes, she was. That's right. Yeah.

[01:26:32] So I wonder if they'll bring back that character for the bride's story since she needs a new friend now. I hope she gets a new friend. Oh, I hope she doesn't. You hope she doesn't get a friend? Oh, because the friend will die? Yes. No new friends for her. No new friends. Oh, poor bride. Eric's your friend. Oh, gosh. See? She needs a friend. Oh, gosh. I'm not wishing that on her. Oh, my God.

[01:27:03] So we saw that whole Clayface-Rick Flagg brawl where they kind of... It looked like they destroyed each other, but they must... We saw Rick Flagg in the hospital, but Clayface must also survive if he's going to show up in this movie. Yes. Yes. You can't kill Clayface that easily. No. No. No. And then we got a peek at the end to the new Task Force M for season two. So we've got the Bride is back. Phosphorus is back.

[01:27:33] We've got Nosferata, who's like a vampire bat figure who we kind of saw in the background this season. We have Kali's, a character I don't really know anything about. Weasel is back, of course, a rebuilt GI robot. And we get King Shark back, who... King Shark was in the Suicide Squad and was maybe my favorite character in the Suicide Squad, so I'm excited about that one. Huh? Is it King Shark? Yeah, it's King Shark. Okay.

[01:28:03] I like King Shark. He was cool. Yeah. Probably one of my favorite things in Suicide Squad, to be honest. Not one, you said? No, one of my favorites. Oh, one of. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. One of my favorites. Yeah. I like that iteration of him. Yeah. I thought he was cool. I thought he was funny. And I like seeing him, you know, like power up. Like you don't expect him to be as powerful as he is, and boom.

[01:28:33] You're like, oh shit. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So what's... Okay, so we've already talked about your gripes and everything. Would you say that your hype level... You had your doubts going into season one, and I know there were things you liked about this season. Yes. Would you say your hype for season two was higher or lower than your hype was going into season one? It's about the same. Okay. For different reasons. It's about the same.

[01:29:01] The reason why it's about the same, I would say, is that, again, to me, it's all about James Gunn. Right? If he takes his writing credits away and lets someone else tell the story, but, you know,

[01:29:21] if he's more of a hands-off on the direct product and more of an overall brains behind the product, I would be happier. Okay. If he's direct... His hand is directly involved in the making of the product, I feel a little ways about that. Because I have a lot of problems with the way that some of the stories were told.

[01:29:50] Some of the characters were portrayed this... Mm-hmm. ...in this past season. What I'm hoping for, what I want to see is an expansion on the characters that we know, the bride, specifically. Right. Right. Her continuing story with Frankenstein. And I want to see that develop further. Mm-hmm. And that's the hope that I have.

[01:30:20] Because I'm kind of invested in her story at this point. Mm-hmm. Like, I want to see where it goes. Yeah. You know, I don't see how they tell her ongoing story. I get her friend. I know Nina, to me, was fridged. Yeah. I was invested in her story. Yeah. Right. I mean, I'm invested in the bride, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's not because Nina was fringed. No. I thought she was a cool character before that happened. Yeah. Which makes that happening even worse.

[01:30:50] Right? Mm-hmm. Because she didn't need that. It wasn't necessary. Right. Yeah. Her character development didn't need that. Right. So I want to see where she goes with this, you know, Victor, with the Eric Frankenstein story. And also, you know, I think Phosphorus is due for a villain comeuppance. Right. Right. I don't think he got it in this season.

[01:31:20] Right. Right. And I want him to get a comeuppance. Because out of all the characters, again, in this season, he was the one who I felt was truly unredeemable. Really? Yes. Oh, I think he's on the redemption arc. You think he's on the... Yeah. Because we got a teaser with that child. Because he didn't kill the family? Well, yeah. I mean, because that was part of him remembering who he was before.

[01:31:50] And it shows that it's still in there, that he still remembers being the father, the family man, that there's still some part of him inside that wants to preserve that way of life. Well, you know that... If not his own family, then others. That's a good thing, because you and I are coming in from at different angles, and I want to see which angle wins. Okay. Our two perspectives are going to fight. Yeah. On the screen. See which one comes out on top. Yeah.

[01:32:20] We'll see if this is another penguin, or if this is an Agatha. Yes. Yes. Yes. Where there's incremental slight moves forward. So that'll be interesting to watch unfold. So yeah, those characters that I already know, I want to see how they change and what we learn about them. And for the new characters, I really don't have anything to say about them.

[01:32:47] Because I don't know how they'll be portrayed. Okay.

[01:33:23] A few scenes in the background. Beforehand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm not invested or truly like, oh, I can't wait to see this portrayal on screen. Because I don't think I should be. Yeah. I was most excited about King Shark just because, yeah. I'm like, oh, King Shark's back. Yeah. And I don't think they're going to do anything distastefully harmful to King Shark. No. Because that's a character they've. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Folks will riot. Uh-huh.

[01:33:53] Rightfully so. Folks will not be happy. Will not be happy. Rightfully so. So. Instead of pitchforks, we'll get our tridents. How about you? How excited? Yeah. I'm, I'm, I think that, I guess on par just because, and the only reason I'm not even more excited is just, you know, what I've already said is that, that whole Nina Mazursky thing threw a wet blanket over the end of the season, as you said as well.

[01:34:18] Um, I, on the one hand, I see intellectually while, why he did it, but it's one of those things when, when a writer is like, oh, see, I'm just playing with your feelings rather than. I just don't think it was the right thing to do in terms of storytelling and in terms of, um, getting people invested. Right. I think it, it had the opposite effect.

[01:34:43] Um, but I'm, I'm here for everyone else who's left and, and I'm kind of like, I know there's not going to be a multiverse anytime soon in the DCU, but I'm like, give me a new Nina. Maybe she'll get a comic. Yeah. I mean, she's in the comics, right? No, I know. I was saying maybe she'll get her own run. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Maybe. Because she's been a fan favorite. Yeah.

[01:35:11] Maybe a spinoff from this show, like tying into her backstory, give her more backstory. Yeah. Give her a happy moment. Yeah. Something. Yeah. Something. Yeah. Speaking of comics, you and I had initially discussed doing this as a versus episode, but you, you, you, you called it and I eventually gave in and said like, it's going to be too much. It's going to be too much.

[01:35:34] But, um, we do want to do, we are going to do a separate versus episode later. Uh, that's going to be in this for supercast and Patreon subscribers. Uh, so that will be this group specific group of heroes versus a group of, uh, similar, like basically matching them up with their counterparts in the Marvel's howling commandos, the monster editions of that team up. Yeah.

[01:36:02] So we're, we're going to focus though. First on our next, uh, public episode is going to be about Captain America. Brave new world. So that opens July 14th in February and February. Sorry. Why am I saying July? Because of Superman, uh, that opens February 14th, Valentine's day, uh, in the U S.

[01:36:29] Um, I'm going to see it on the 12th here and we're going to record about it, uh, early the next week is the plan. So it should be out to the week after it opens our episode, breaking that down. And again, you were, you were super duper on that one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm really super duper excited about this. I think it's going to be, um, yeah. Again, let me just put this out there. I have, I have, I have things that I don't like things that I do like.

[01:37:00] I'm not a big Anthony Mackie guy, but I am super invested in his Captain America portrayal. Uh huh. So I am very happy with what we've seen so far. Um, I think some of the things that, you know, we've all seen, if you watch any of the trailers or anything like that, look really good.

[01:37:27] So I have high hopes that this film hits on the, the major, you know, cores that they're trying to hit on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And then, um, and then I think maybe the next we'll do this, this howling commandos versus episode. And then the other one that we keep teasing that's, uh, it's going to be for supercast and patron subscribers is we're going to finally do the Sony live action spider verse funeral. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:37:57] Uh, out with a whimper. Yeah. I'm going to defend Morbius. Well, Oh, Oh God. Oh, okay. That's going to be, it's going to be some fun times. That's going to be fun times. Okay. All right. Okay. And I'll defend Craven.

[01:38:27] Okay. All right. It could be defending. All right. All right. There we go. There we go. I'm not going to defend Craven. And yeah, also check out, uh, for supercast and Patreon subscribers, the recent everything everywhere, all at once episode, and you can vote now on the Lynch movie for next month. It's going to be a Lynch, David Lynch movie in honor of his recent passing. Um, there's also some extra severance episodes there that you can check out. And, uh, again, the severance,

[01:38:57] uh, weekly coverage, public coverage is in a separate severance lorehounds feed. So you'll find that linked in the show notes. And it's a waffle party of theories over there with, uh, we've got David, John, Anthony, and Steve. You'll find, uh, in the show notes, a link tree where you can find that you can find our email. So we want to hear your thoughts about creature commando super Superman, the rest of the DCU slate. You can send that to DCU with a lorehounds.com.

[01:39:26] And also you can join us to chat on discord. We have a dedicated DC forum, and we've just opened up the Superman movie chat there to check out. Also the affiliates. So we've got my will shift dust podcast, uh, just finished, uh, silo coverage and the star Wars Canon timeline podcast. Also check out nevermind the music, psychology and music, radioactive ramblings, just finished red rising coverage. And they're doing GB coverage. Um, properly.

[01:39:56] Howard is, uh, just finished. There was a few good films series. And yeah, all, all the feeds. These are all keeping busy. You're going to find something that you like. Yeah. Trust me on this one. And, uh, and the lorehounds feed is of course, full of all kinds of stuff, upcoming similar alien stories, Indiana Jones play. And I have to say, I'm particularly excited for, I'm putting together my second annual Oscar prep series.

[01:40:25] And I've started doing the, the interviews and things like that. So it was going to be a lot of fun insights into the movies that are nominated and the whole Oscar parade, rigmarole controversies, everything going on in Oscar land that you need to know. Uh, so I have, we, we like to call out our discord server boosters who make our discord a more functional place. And also our lore masters,

[01:40:54] which is our highest tier of subscribers. I I've pulled something out of the Epic folder this time called somewhere. Oh boy. Here we go. Ooh. Thank you to our discord server boosters, Aaron K. Tiller, the thriller, dork of the ninjas, doob 71, Athena, Ajalea, Tina, let's do Nancy M ghost of partition and radioactive Richard. And thank you to all of our listeners. Thank you to all of our subscribers, our lore hounds,

[01:41:23] and most especially our lore masters, our highest tier of subscribers who get a shout out every episode. That would be some Martian, Michael G, Michelle E, Brian P, SC, Peter, O H, Bettina, W, Adam S, Nancy M, doob 71, Brian, 80, 63, Frederick H, Sarah L, Garrett C, Matthew M, Sarah M, DJ Miwa, Andra B, Kwong Yu, Jedi, Jedi Bob, Nathan T, Alex V, Aaron T, Sub Zero, Aaron K, Dally V, Mothership 61, Niles,

[01:41:53] Kathy W, Lestu, Jeffrey B, Elisa Yu, Neil F, Neil F, Ben B, Scott F, Steven N, Julia F, Collie S, Ilmariel, and always last, Adrian. Thank you, thank you. And Ghost. Ghost wants to make sure you know he's here too. Yeah, that's right. And if you're not a subscriber, no worries. Thank you so much for listening. And if you enjoyed this episode, it is a massive help.

[01:42:19] If you can share this episode with other people that you think are interested in DC news and reviews and leave a nice review wherever you're listening. It's an enormous help. Yeah, more people find us so that we can talk more about this stuff. Any final thoughts as we go? Yeah. Kevin Feige. Hello again. How are you doing, my friend? Just a couple of words.

[01:42:50] Damson Idris is T'Challa. The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening.

[01:43:24] Hey, everyone. David here. Severance is back. The Lorehounds are partnering with Properly Howard to bring you in-depth weekly coverage of season two. Join me, John, Anthony, and Steve as we unpack every twist, theory, and revelation. We've created a dedicated feed just for our Severance coverage.

[01:43:47] Simply search for Severance Lorehounds in your podcast app or find the direct link in our link tree. Our weekly episodes dig deep into the show's mysteries, themes, and bigger questions about identity and consciousness that make Severance so compelling. Season Pass and regular community subscribers get ad-free access to our weekly episodes,

[01:44:11] plus exclusive content like our Supply Closet bonus series featuring fascinating conversations with experts like the team from Nevermind the Music. We've explored the neuroscience of memory and personality, decoded the hidden meanings in the show's musical themes, and there's much more to come. You'll also get Steve and Anthony's complete season one rewatch series.

[01:44:37] We believe in total transparency with our listeners, and unlike Mammalians Nurturable, we're happy to share all of our secrets. Find the link for the Severance feed in the show notes below, or search Severance Lorehounds wherever you get your podcasts. Come theorize with us about what's really happening at Lumen.

[01:45:12] ...that thinks it's about to be...