Oneshot - Dune: Part Two

[00:00:00] Welcome to The Lorehounds. I'm your host David, welcome to a special podcast about the movie

[00:00:23] June 2, today with me are Anthony, Alicia and Ron. We're going to get into a full spoiler conversation about the movie right from the start. So if you haven't seen the movie yet, you know, pause it, go and see it and then come back right now, right now.

[00:00:42] You know, just to reiterate on this. Yeah, not being a book reader. There were a few moments in this film that I just jaw-dropping surprise. And so if you don't want to ruin those things for yourself, then just you know, the podcast will wait. We'll just hang out here and you can press pause and go watch the movie. That's right. Can't wait to find out what those surprises were for you. Oh yeah.

[00:01:10] Yeah. So we're going to start off really quick with just a round robin of initial impressions and then we're going to talk mostly about the movie itself for the first part of the conversation and then we'll slowly expand wider and wider into the book and extended universe related stuff.

[00:01:27] If you need to get in touch with us, lorehounds at the lorehounds.com or visit us on our website and there's contact form and voicemail feature there. We have our discord where we've got a lot of lively conversations happening, especially around show gun right now, which is what our active show is links for all of that stuff are in the show notes, especially for our affiliate podcasts.

[00:01:47] We have Nalisha and Anthony here with us today. They both have their own podcast. Marilyn has a podcast rings and rituals going right now. So if you want to hear those, go to those links and subscribe separately.

[00:02:00] So let's spin the wheel here and get everybody's initial impressions. Anthony, do you want to lead us off just a few words about how this movie left you feeling?

[00:02:11] Yeah, I was floored amazed in awe in a state of blissful wonderment at the first movie as that was my introduction one or the first time you saw it in two.

[00:02:27] The 19 or sorry 2023 2021. I think yeah, yeah, 2021 that one was just one of the most amazing theater experiences up I've ever had in my life.

[00:02:42] I was really built up for this and sometimes when you're built up for something, it kind of disappoints. This one did not disappoint.

[00:02:51] I loved this even more. I mean, I walked out of the theater thinking that might be the best sequel I've ever seen in a theater.

[00:03:03] So that I mean amazed amazed loved this movie. Right. Ron, what where are you at? And I know you just saw it for a second time. Yeah, last night I did also as well.

[00:03:19] Yeah, this movie is the reason why we make movies. It is firing on all cylinders and I saw a lot of reviews going before it.

[00:03:32] The TikTokers and the YouTubers like just over the moon and I was concerned that it can never live up to. Yeah, right.

[00:03:43] And the way I describe it is, depending on your familiarity with the books and the story, how you feel at the end of this film.

[00:03:53] Because I think a lot of ways how a person feels about a movie can be as largely determined by how well it sticks landing.

[00:04:04] Like I've gone to movies, they are kind of as I'm watching it but they stick to landing so well. I have a great experience with the overall movie.

[00:04:11] And so depending on a person's experience with the books may inform how excited they are about this movie when they come out of it.

[00:04:21] But just as a cinematic experience, it is just everything. The music, the sound design, the acting, it's just it is it is not hyperbole to say it is epic and it is easily one of the best sequels put to cinema. Yeah, I agree.

[00:04:45] I think it's hard to argue that it's not.

[00:04:49] I walked out of the theater stumbling kind of in a stupor like I didn't understand what was going on emotionally inside of me.

[00:04:59] I hadn't felt, I don't think I can, I think maybe aliens is one of the movies, one of the few movies that has done this to me where I've walked out of the movie just my whole physical being, my mind, my spirit, just vibrating.

[00:05:16] The kinetic energy of that movie was incredible. With Doom 2, I just walked out in wonderment and I literally was almost stumbling to my car as I was trying to get myself home.

[00:05:29] And I didn't know that I forgot that a movie could do that to me, that a film could be this expansive.

[00:05:38] And that's not to say I don't have some nitpicks and some minor criticisms of the film.

[00:05:42] And I saw it again last night and the fields hit me in different places this time because I was obviously expecting it a little bit so my mindset was different.

[00:05:53] But I think Ron, I was a similar thing. I was like how can this movie live up? These people are talking just crazy, right? This is just normal marketing blah blah.

[00:06:00] And I was like, so I was like, oh, I'll just manage my expectations. And when Chani and Paul first kiss that for me from that in I was just in.

[00:06:10] Well, or when the heartconens were floating up the the rock, I was like wow, this is really interesting and then the body's dropping.

[00:06:17] But then when they kissed I was like, whoa, wait, what is this movie doing to me? I was really, really confused.

[00:06:25] So I think I agree with both of your assessments that this is probably one of the best sequels it's ever been made.

[00:06:32] And this is a film that I just don't even know how to process at this point, what it did to me.

[00:06:37] Alicia, you want to anchor us? What did you where your feelings and thoughts?

[00:06:42] Yeah, I mean, so I had mixed feelings about Doom Part One because also because I am coming at it as someone who's like obsessively read the books and stuff.

[00:06:53] It's I struggled with some of the choices that he made and also is so going into this one we had just heard the whole interview with Vilnov saying about how he hates dialogue and stuff.

[00:07:03] Well, that was the problem with the first movie. And then I hear it weren't full spoiler territory right?

[00:07:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:07:10] So I hear about the part about like, Alia not being born in the movie and not doing the iconic thing she does at the end of the book.

[00:07:20] And so I went in like, you know, I'm hearing all the raves but I'm just kind of grumpy about it.

[00:07:25] And then that moment where the Harkonins lifts off my every hair on my body stood on end.

[00:07:31] Was it worth that?

[00:07:33] Horrible.

[00:07:34] Yes, that's right.

[00:07:35] And full horrible.

[00:07:37] And I just knew I was in and I didn't look at my watch through the whole three hour thing except that's not a complete, that's not completely true.

[00:07:48] I looked at it's a time my drink intake.

[00:07:50] But I was just yeah regularly like on hair standing on end and I came to understand I understand the adaptation choices made and some of them I really love.

[00:08:05] I think are better than the book in some cases.

[00:08:08] I think that the Fremen have never been so well brought to life.

[00:08:12] And it's just yeah, it's just as a cinematic experience and as an adaptation.

[00:08:18] Yeah, it fires on all cylinders and I'm already like throwing all the Oscars at it from next year.

[00:08:24] I'm like, I don't care what comes out.

[00:08:26] Love the line below line.

[00:08:29] Really quick, it makes maybe makes a little sense for us to consider who's read and seeing what I've read all the core six books.

[00:08:39] I've never read any of his sons adapted extended universe and I've seen the 84 movie but I didn't see the sci fi special and 84 has a special place in my heart.

[00:08:52] And then yeah, I've seen Doon one. I don't know how many times and do to know a couple of times.

[00:08:56] Ron, have you read any of the books or were where you at with your Doon history?

[00:09:01] Yeah, I probably read it.

[00:09:02] I probably read a third of the first book but I've watched the Voward every YouTube video about all the books.

[00:09:11] So what Queen's ideas?

[00:09:12] Queen has a lot of what's Queen's ideas and yeah, filmic comic something or other anyway.

[00:09:19] There are a number of video essays, you know, 30, 40 minute video essays on all the books.

[00:09:25] So I devoured all of those.

[00:09:26] So I feel like I've read all the books.

[00:09:28] The Cliff Notes version.

[00:09:29] The Modern Cliff Date version.

[00:09:30] Right, right.

[00:09:31] Alicia.

[00:09:32] Oh, sorry.

[00:09:33] Oh, I'm sorry.

[00:09:34] And I don't know if the 84 movie has a special place in my heart but I remember seeing it in the theater.

[00:09:41] I remember liking it and I enjoyed it.

[00:09:45] I think I watched the special TV series version of it when it came out.

[00:09:50] The side of it.

[00:09:51] Whenever it did.

[00:09:52] Yeah, the side of it a while ago.

[00:09:54] Okay.

[00:09:55] So yeah, that's my familiarity.

[00:09:56] Alicia.

[00:09:57] Yeah.

[00:09:58] So I came into it through my mom really loved it.

[00:10:02] She saw the 84 movie when I was a baby and so then she went in like she read all the books.

[00:10:08] She also read all the sun's books up to that time but she got me into Frank Herbert's books.

[00:10:14] And so I've read those but I've read the earlier it is in the series, the more I've read it.

[00:10:19] So my favorite two books are of course the first two.

[00:10:23] This one and Duma Sy which will be the one adapted for the next Duma Part 3.

[00:10:28] Yeah, the books are really up and down aren't they?

[00:10:31] There's some that are just amazing and then some.

[00:10:33] Yeah, they get weird which I like as but I some of the book later books.

[00:10:38] I like better as abstract concepts rather than spending all the hours you need to spend to read these books.

[00:10:45] Right.

[00:10:46] Right.

[00:10:47] Like it's better at a top level thing.

[00:10:48] You're just like that's an interesting concept.

[00:10:49] So let's consider that.

[00:10:50] Anthony.

[00:10:51] Yeah, not a book reader at this point.

[00:10:56] I love the first movie.

[00:10:59] I love to hate the 84 movie.

[00:11:02] But yeah, I think I will probably pick up the books this summer.

[00:11:08] Maybe if I have got some time in my schedule.

[00:11:11] I might ask you all to alert me if you're going to spoil something big.

[00:11:17] You write about the next film.

[00:11:19] I might just you know plug my ears for 10 seconds or whatever.

[00:11:23] But otherwise I'm so into this story of loving it as a film iteration.

[00:11:31] And your first love is film.

[00:11:35] Anthony, I think you have said that before as a cinematic experience.

[00:11:40] I mean, we've all been gushing now for the last few minutes about how great this film is.

[00:11:45] I see a note here that you have about the screen like what screen have you seen it on and what's the impact of that?

[00:11:51] What's your thoughts on that?

[00:11:53] Did you were you able to see it on a large screen 70 or iMacs or?

[00:11:57] Yeah, I saw it.

[00:11:58] I saw it opening day on iMacs and you know, it was a relatively full theater that I think that that changes the experience blown away.

[00:12:10] You know, just just breathtaking.

[00:12:14] And then yesterday my you know, my son saw it midweek and he just wouldn't stop talking about it.

[00:12:23] So it was like day three of him monologuing about Paula traities.

[00:12:27] And I was like, you know what? Let's go see it.

[00:12:30] I've got a podcast with the tomorrow we should just go see it together.

[00:12:34] And I saw it on a standard so we had but so my son saw it on iMacs.

[00:12:38] I saw it on iMacs and we saw it on a standard screen.

[00:12:42] And we both realized it was a different experience.

[00:12:46] It was just it just felt different.

[00:12:49] And of course the second viewing sometimes doesn't quite do it.

[00:12:54] But I'm wondering if this is the kind of film because I've talked to a lot of people that are like, well wait for it to come out on Apple TV or something.

[00:13:02] And I keep saying no you have to see it in the theater but there are very few films where that's actually true about I think.

[00:13:09] But this is like, I really think that this is going to have two different audiences.

[00:13:17] The people that watch it on the small screen will not have the same experience and they'll have a different feeling walking away from this movie than the people who kind of made the effort paid a little bit of money to see it on in the theater.

[00:13:34] I don't have a big screen like that here where I live.

[00:13:39] So yeah, I just kind of feel like it's an interesting problem for a film that just knocks it out of the park for that you know, primo experience.

[00:13:54] Anyway, that's my thought on this.

[00:13:56] Alicia, Ron do you guys have thoughts about screen and viewing?

[00:14:00] Yeah, I think movies are a full experience. They're a full sensory experience and some movies take advantage of all the senses.

[00:14:14] Some movies you really pretty much just need to see it in here the dialogue and that's you know, you know, in order for it to, you know, truly hit.

[00:14:26] What's that movie where the two people are just talking while a shan.

[00:14:29] My dad and I'm sure yeah, you don't need to see my dad and I'm actually an iMacs right?

[00:14:35] Like that's not something you need to see on a three story tall building.

[00:14:41] But when it comes to movies like Dune or lower the rings or any of these epic sagas, there is something about the surround sound experience 5.17.14.3

[00:14:55] whatever it is. I just made up that last number.

[00:14:58] There's something about seeing the size and the resolution.

[00:15:05] I mean, seeing those three giant worms come at you on a three foot tall screen.

[00:15:11] It's going to be completely different. They see them come at you on a 47 inch television right?

[00:15:17] Across the room, are your kids screaming exactly exactly.

[00:15:21] And so, yeah, it's undeniable that the visceral experience you get from being in a theater, particularly if you're able to experience the rumble and feel in your seats and to see the size of the mountains and the monsters on a tall screen is going to have an impact on how you come away from the film.

[00:15:44] You might miss things on a small screen that you won't miss on a bigger screen. So there's that as well.

[00:15:50] Yeah, I think there's also, I mean, so I intentionally I had to go to the smaller screen this time.

[00:15:57] We just because for protecting my ears and for having a broken leg, I just I had to go to this one theater with the crappy sound and the smaller screens.

[00:16:07] But and that was the thing while I was watching the whole time I was like, oh man, I wish I were at the Dolby Theater for this one.

[00:16:15] But the other aspect of this, it's not just about the quality, the size of the visuals and the quality of the sound.

[00:16:22] It's also about the communal experience, you know, just being there and having people sniffling all together at the same scenes and cheering occasionally and just gasping and showing it's an experience that we're all going through together and that definitely adds something to.

[00:16:39] I think with the world building to one of the things that I feel that Villanue has gotten right is scale.

[00:16:49] He understands scale, he understands the scale of a racquet and the worms and the spice and the carrioles and the spice harvesters.

[00:16:59] And he knows how to use the camera to give us the scale there's a lot of intimate shots but then there's a lot of wide shots where we see the rolling dunes or we see the you know the spice haulers moving around and then people in relationship to those kinds of things.

[00:17:16] And I think seeing it there's only that first time that you can see this movie and I couldn't yeah like I said we don't have a 70 or an iMacs nearby where I can conveniently get to it.

[00:17:30] When I couldn't wait multiple days to I couldn't turn myself off from the internet to schedule myself to go do it.

[00:17:37] But there's used to your first time of being able to see this movie and to be taken by the world building as Villanue envisioned it in his mind's eye in his director's eye on a three foot screen or a 70 millimeter screen.

[00:17:53] And I think that's a really important part of the dunes story is the scale of things too because you're not just talking about oh well here's a little person next to a big old spice crawler machine or what have you.

[00:18:06] But Paul is thinking when he becomes the quiz at hydra he becomes galaxy brain literally he sees all these futures and he sees all these pasts and yet he still a mortal man he's still a little man in a little body.

[00:18:21] And so that sense of scale I think plays and other indirect ways with the story.

[00:18:26] What do you think about the comments about it going in where he said you know he's such a visual storyteller and he made the comments that may have been misunderstood I think after watching the movie about dialogue not being as important but I do think that there were some iconic dialogues also in this film.

[00:18:44] I actually hear that interview but I've heard a lot of people mention it and comment on it I don't know to what extent people overreacted to what he said.

[00:18:55] But I think we have all marveled who hasn't marbled at the beginning of up right mm-hmm how many times have people talked about the power and emotion of the beginning of that picture movie.

[00:19:10] The entire opening there is no dialogue but the story comes comes through as a filmmaker I remember watching I didn't watch it as a filmmaker but I remember watching as a kid and having a new experience for it when it became a filmmaker.

[00:19:25] The red balloon we haven't seen the short film the red balloon to French film came out.

[00:19:31] I've been in the 60s childhood. Yeah, about a little kid who who be friends this red balloon this balloon takes on a life of itself and you're crying at the end of that film.

[00:19:43] There's no dialogue in it and so I think for years there were silent films so again I didn't hear the end of you but my guess is knowing the kind of filmmaker that Denis Villeneuve is that his point was that sometimes

[00:20:00] sometimes dialogue can be an obstacle to emotion that the filmmaker can better express through just visuals.

[00:20:14] I think he is a filmmaker can do that but for instance like just in Trier you know from the anatomy of a fall filmmaker she a dialogue is her bread and butter and that's what makes her film so great so I think maybe that's why it came off so poorly.

[00:20:29] To some people is because it's just like well who are you to say how.

[00:20:34] Film should be made or something that's what he's saying dialogue in general is not important or he said he said that's better for TV it's not for film or something but that's I think it's maybe misinterpreted you know his French yeah.

[00:20:48] I mean that feels I'd have to get I have the watch as I can't comments it on it but but even I mean even when I think about you know his films his films are very visual without a doubt I think of

[00:21:33] doing to you know some of the a lot of the dialogue we hear it's powerful when Paul's addressing the all the Fremen anything long to the fighters or whatever that however that like goes that's really powerful seeing the funny I think the only I feel like the only

[00:21:55] only aspects of comedy that came to this are from stillgarts comments.

[00:22:00] And you know that's all delivered to dialogues yeah I think I think obviously dialogues important it depends on the film it really depends on the film yeah I notice that I just I notice

[00:22:14] in one key scene he stopped even the music when we have a Paul and Fedratha fighting at the end I found that a really powerful choice you know that use of silence notice yeah that's really good yeah because there's a lot of music that's used effectively

[00:22:30] throughout the movie to really set mood I just posted a video about Hanson they're talking about making the music on the discord if anyone wants to see it yeah.

[00:22:42] And then he did you find that the news color grading and visual aesthetic work for you for this movie I had a little bit of problem with it in doon part one.

[00:22:54] All right number one shooting on location with natural light I know it was really important for him it just makes so much of a difference makes just so much of a difference and so any scene

[00:23:10] in on the sand any scene on the sand works fantastic for me I did like the sense that if you go off world to a different planet the light is a little bit different like when you're on the imperial in the imperial courtyard or the imperial palace.

[00:23:33] The lighting is just a little bit less oppressive and then of course when you go to the black sun planet everything's black and white.

[00:23:45] Yeah actually if I can interrupt you say yes you notice this last night when there in interiors of buildings on giri prime yeah in color that's right and they only go to a black and white.

[00:24:01] When the direct sunlight correct and apparently that was shot on IR on infrared film and not in black and white and that's what gives it it's you really interesting yeah.

[00:24:13] So I was wondering about that as sort of a theme for you know sort of a little maybe a little bit too much for me with in that case but that might be just my the way that I'm kind of receiving the harkon and.

[00:24:30] I don't know culture at large or something like that but I was quite I was quite impressed with that aspect of the film.

[00:24:40] I was thinking in terms of like the way that you tell a story relative to dialogue light is another way you can tell a story right on screen.

[00:24:50] But the question for me is like what is the film trying to do so like some some film theory would say something like did the film have a big idea you know that's what people are looking for right another way into this is to say you know the director

[00:25:11] have a point of view and did he communicate here did she hear she communicate the point of view but the one that always sticks with me is the

[00:25:23] that the grand question did the film make you feel something and for me this film made me feel everything.

[00:25:33] So like I you know I felt I absolutely felt you know the called arms in the speech absolutely felt you know young love that that powerful visceral feeling of young love or the feeling of

[00:25:48] you know want the sun and his mother at odds or the catharsis of you know seeing someone you thought was dead who's now alive or just the sense of vengeance that visceral feeling that you want to avenge I mean this film had so told the story so effectively through the feeling of it.

[00:26:13] That I didn't need like 84 version like to hear the dialogue in their head you know sort of like the whispered in your thoughts of that I didn't need that in this because if the director's good enough at what is it with the method that's being used

[00:26:33] the visuals can tell the story and light light is one way to do that I did like it what about.

[00:26:40] Ron and at least I'm curious with you guys since Ron your cliff notes reader and at least a like I have has read the books multiple times with what Anthony was just saying there with the one big idea did you guys feel like you picked up on the big idea

[00:26:58] and if so what was it in this movie because I'm like Anthony a little bit where I felt everything I think a lot of what made me feel for this this particular movie was the fact of the actual realization of taking how I felt in the books and putting that on screen.

[00:27:17] And so I was really responding emotionally to the adaptation and in large part of not having any problems with Denise point of view and his creative choices but in terms of big ideas I don't know at least you're on where you guys with that did the movie work for you from a big idea like Anthony was just laying out like a from a big big idea standpoint did you pick up on it.

[00:27:41] I think it's hard not to separate it it's hard to separate it from the big conversation that's been following which is the whole white savior idea I don't know if you agree Ron if that's been a conversation you've been hearing a lot since but now that sort of dominating my head yeah.

[00:27:58] It's interesting say that so I have some thoughts about the white savior conversation so definitely be hearing it and I do not think this is a white saver moon no yeah and I explain why.

[00:28:10] I was playing white and made not to be in the books yeah yeah and you know without pulling too much it's clear from my happens in the following books right I will inject a slight historical note as I understand it though to and this could be wrong on this understanding was that her but was playing with that trope at one level

[00:28:36] and but there's so much more going on in terms of sociology and religion and psychology and ecology and it wasn't until later when everybody started writing letters to him in the sixties when this came out and they're like are you starting a cult are you starting a new movement are you starting and you like got inundated with this feedback of like what is the harbor guy up to light some people wanted to join his cult so people were like try to find out where to read.

[00:29:02] And so he wrote the books later to over accentuate the tearing down of the Messiah idea and so that's why Messiah and children go their way they go in the box.

[00:29:18] Well yeah I mean you see it already in the first book with just and this is something that the movie rightfully focuses on its effect that the Benny Jesuit implanted this propaganda mission area for the people to do in order to benefit on it later and all plants they've done this all over right all over the place but doon as a place where it will especially take hold because the people are living such a tough life there it's you know.

[00:29:47] And yeah so it's there in the first book but indeed yeah what I've heard is that like when he saw people's responses to that he's like no way people didn't get it I think I have to go harder on this.

[00:29:58] Yeah and for me given the kind of content I make because I make a lot of content that's geared towards you know as you know David you know my particular journey of faith and I move from being a developed Christian to now being an agnostic atheist

[00:30:13] and how and why and went in that direction and the kind of content that I create around that it is impossible for me to come out of this movie and not here loud and clear the dangers.

[00:30:26] And there are a couple of lines that Chinese says that are this that just to me scream so like Christian nationalism or the dangers of any kind of you know dogmatic religion like they use prophecies to control you.

[00:30:42] And Johnny's explicit.

[00:30:45] Oh yeah absolutely very much on the nose and so when I hear those.

[00:30:49] That was a very good change I think but yeah there are those are very when I hear those from the movie that's something related to just you know the fundamentalism of stillguard

[00:31:01] and the fremen from the south how they are how they convinced themselves of like all the ways they convinced themselves of something that they already believe this is something I see in religion all the time.

[00:31:15] And the point you may at least show a cow this is something that was implanted in this culture like it was purposely put there planted almost like by inception you know calling another amazing film maker.

[00:31:30] For them for it to fast do and grow over how many millennia whatever in fed because the Benny just are at our present on a rack is exactly keep that keep these certain things alive.

[00:31:43] And just for book reader for non book readers the missionary protective is manufactured mythology that the Benny Jesuit install it literally install like a piece of software like a boot driver or something into culture all over the galaxy so that you can see.

[00:31:59] So that if one of the Benny Jesuit sisters is ever a need or needs to shape the outcome of something or is in danger position they have a whole toolkit available to them that are pre installed in that culture so they can use phrases and words and mannerisms and pointing to other method.

[00:32:19] So the prophecy it's the prophecy or you know a great one from Tin Tin was you know when dealing with quote unquote savage tribes and there's a full solar eclipse and it's like oh I can use the solar eclipse is my get out of jail card or see three Pio in with the Ewoks right.

[00:32:38] So yeah so so the missionary protetiva protectiva is installed across the world and so it's I think it plays an interesting thing the fact that how do we end up with a true Messiah quote unquote true Messiah when this is a manufactured thing but at the end of the day Paul can see.

[00:32:58] But it is manufactured in the genetic way to like it's not just their they're laying you know the software and creating the hardware to plug into it yeah now it's a good point and I also can help I think about when I go back to.

[00:33:14] How the role that Christianity has played in terms of injecting itself and different cultures you can't help but wonder what kind of religion or culture would have developed on Fremen on June among the Fremen if they didn't have.

[00:33:34] You know this being to enter interest rate prophecy instilled oftentimes you know one conversation that's popular among the African American community the black community is the role that the church has played in our community with regards to both bad and the good you know the church has done.

[00:33:59] A lot of bad things you know to the black community like there's no denying for years the Bible was used to substantially you know slavery and racism by the same token the church has also placed a lot of work in the civil rights movement for black people so.

[00:34:18] But there's a lot of conversation about you know did how did Christianity come to Africa and a lot of people will say that Christianity you know the slaves Christianity was forced on the slaves.

[00:34:31] But there were some aspects of Ethiopia where Christianity you know was evolving and growing even before the slave trade but even that in a sense was I don't have implanted is the right word but it wasn't necessary so it wasn't something that grew out of natural African culture yeah by definition it came from outside of Africa.

[00:34:54] And a lot of the African cultures and religions were suppressed on both sides of the continent and I remember as a kid I went to this all black school it was an African school and I remember in my mom was like a southern Baptist so I grew up Christian whenever.

[00:35:11] But I remember I had this one class in the school where they taught us about all the African gods and I remember as a kid trying to wrestle or idea with how well how does the one main God fit in with all these African gods so I always thought of one main god is like the main God the king God and all the other guys like his generals or something that's how my mind play with it but it is this idea of what would have all these planets what kind of cultures and religion.

[00:35:41] And religions would have grown out of these planets if they've been just or it weren't there manipulating it all right Anthony as a religion person who has their profession is what is study of religion yeah how did you respond do you think the the moody the the Maddi story played well here was it earned it Paul's ascension work for you I mean as someone who is trying to do some kind of work.

[00:36:11] And I'm kind of sci fi realism which I'm assuming is sort of break Harbord's one of the things that he's trying to do is trying to create a realistic political paradigm right yeah one that can be believed even if it is intergalactic and not simply you know earth focused.

[00:36:31] What you do if you want that is you have to study how politics works here and now right because your audience is here and now so is religion a part of politics on this planet absolutely.

[00:36:51] And you could you it's almost impossible to imagine political systems without an element of religious influence you could almost you know you could almost imagine politics emerging from a religious perspective in the ancient world so for him to reflect reality.

[00:37:15] The the religious reality of earth and I think you've got a lot of Islam also baked into his world building yeah.

[00:37:24] I do think that there's some interesting parallels to eastern Buddhism as well I'm not I'm not quite the right person to talk to about that but I I detect it a bit of that too but absolutely that adds to the texture of this and I'm thinking specifically of how you can.

[00:37:44] So you hear you feel the nuance in the fremen culture that it's not simply one kind of religion but it's it's different iterations of this culture that are reacting to the religion so you've got the fundamentalist in the south and then what what is a show needs tribe called I forget what it's called.

[00:38:09] Seach tabo I well they change the temper yeah that yeah they say it differently in the movie I've always I don't know.

[00:38:18] It's a table but I thought it was really knew I thought it was really well done to show that there's a conflict even with the culture and there's there's similarities you know that this culture is entirely built around the

[00:38:31] Poster of water and so all of the tradition the kind of animals that they venerate yeah beautiful rules around death yeah the water.

[00:38:40] Exactly all of that is just so well told but then to show like yeah but we disagree on the Messiah because that's because that's a dangerous idea or the other side

[00:38:52] if it is like why you know why don't look at him he's he's exhibiting all the signs he's no it's it's been written he's not see that he's the Messiah so to me that that feels that texture feels very very real and so so well done

[00:39:12] and so if you see if I actually take the religious elements of serious these kinds of culture seriously so I really appreciate that in this movie.

[00:39:21] I think it's really interesting and I'm curious at least what you thought the the choice that Villanue made in creating a multi faceted fremen culture as compared to the books where it's very mono there are no northern and southern which is a very interesting thing too.

[00:39:41] Also to me or our own world you know sort of north south you know the crazy fun was all in the south whatever they're lesser developed where more advanced or or cause the way I just gonna ask about that if that was something not at all in the books there's no there's no fractioning if am I right in that Alicia.

[00:40:01] Yeah well I think and I think most notably one of the good adaptation choices I think is to give Johnny more agency like in the books Johnny is kind of immediately like oh big Messiah here dude yay I'm totally on board with all the messed up shit you're gonna do.

[00:40:21] And this is definitely I like that she comes from she comes from this more I guess because they're southern and their closer to the cities they're more kind of near the hurricane yeah I believe cannot see each

[00:40:38] cover is closer to Eric in the city yeah so they're more like they interact more without titers and presumably they're more jaded in a way more

[00:40:47] cosmopolitan yeah and and I think yeah it makes it makes you know I'm not gonna give any spoilers for the next book but it makes what's coming so much more fraught too.

[00:40:58] I as I'm thinking about it in I think in the Sia and maybe a little bit in children of Dune Herbert does touch on and I believe even in the first book he touches all a little bit of a difference between

[00:41:13] fremen who live in a rekene versus people who live out but it's more of a country versus city right like there's a

[00:41:22] lot of things that are when they live in the city yeah exactly which is absolutely reflective of the world we're living in right I mean it's there's no doubt about

[00:41:30] that I was thought I thought jani was a almost a stand in for the audience experience. I mean if you think about her she's she's open she's open to

[00:41:43] the holidays she's not as cynical as her friend she is still a bit jaded but she ends up embracing him in the way the audience is embracing him if you think about her accent she doesn't really have one right

[00:41:58] she really kind of is almost a modern teenager who's happens to be in this world and giving us all of the cues that you would expect in a way that kind of she's

[00:42:15] almost a bridge between the alien world that's being created and the world of the audience I thought and I thought it was

[00:42:24] quite effective yeah it's an interesting way it's when you bring it per lack of accent I remember hearing on another podcast they were talking about how Paul and Chinese just sound like Timothy and

[00:42:39] Cindy yeah totally whereas everyone else has some kind of accent going on where they're not an accent that would you know do they

[00:42:50] British and I don't know they kind of speak their own in their voices except for of course and always austro butler is you know what he kills it let him do his voices

[00:43:04] if you close your eyes he sounds like still and we like you there is yes I think that's intentional he's taking on yeah he's the fade is taking on the barren

[00:43:15] and the world the movie actually does call this out like it's a little bit of a joke but it's like you can't hear that he has got a different accent

[00:43:24] you know they're talking about stillgar like right yes yeah yeah there's no he's from the south he's like you can't hear it's an accent

[00:43:32] yeah it was almost sort of like yeah it works in world because it does highlight the Paul's an outsider right yeah

[00:43:40] like but it also works for the audience because if you wanted to you know nitpick no they've already solved that problem there from different regions different from and have different accents

[00:43:53] so I appreciate it good word building yeah my biggest complaint of doing one was the diction was the fact that house a trade is a noble house and so by that regard they would have some way of

[00:44:09] verbally differentiating themselves from other people so that really bothered me but in this movie it never really bothered me and I don't know if it was because

[00:44:19] we'll knew primed the you know dialogue doesn't matter you know conversation or the fact that it just didn't really matter in this film

[00:44:27] it didn't matter to the it was a plot it's a technical detail that is so minor in comparison to everything else that was going on

[00:44:35] I'm curious though to as to to get maybe some more moving nuts and bolts how did everybody feel about the casting did everything in the casting work for everyone like for me

[00:44:48] I love me some Christopher walk-in but you know it didn't work it every single time I was like oh you did you know you're not even gonna try like speaking of people talking like themselves exactly I was like I'm almost

[00:45:03] thinking I'll guide all right first off

[00:45:05] first off

[00:45:07] Dave but he says yell acting like they're just just too much like you Dave but he's the has to just be over the top and every

[00:45:17] scene it was it was laughable like my son and I were like just laughing at David he did have some good wounded puppy dog looks though in this movie so

[00:45:25] I guess but I'm thinking he was healed if you put that he's in the same movie as Christopher walk-in and one of them only can ever shout his lines and the other one is like barely

[00:45:37] phone it and I'm thinking come on are you guys are you guys in the same movie here right I love the acting I thought they was really

[00:45:47] well done I just every now and again would be like gosh they but he's so Christopher walk and just seem like two ends of a spectrum on this one right it's interesting you bring up the casting I personally I thought the acting was top

[00:46:03] rocks I thought they they did a really good job I really do feel for Chinese character I do feel the conflict that Paul's going through

[00:46:15] I saw the thing about his turn like yeah too quick because he was so against going to the south and the one vision from it seems like the vision from

[00:46:28] John is what convinces him either that or or realizing that the south that the north wasn't going to follow him they weren't going to do what they need to do

[00:46:38] unless he went to the south this is the person that I got so this has been a big topic of conversation I have heard a lot of people ask

[00:46:46] is the shift in Paul's character well earned yeah and I think I think that's legit my girlfriend she love the movie she saw for the first time last night movies so together

[00:46:57] and one thing one point that she made was she felt like she wasn't as invested like she loved the movie she thought it was great but she was she didn't feel as invested in the characters

[00:47:10] she does and other movies as she watches and was hard for her to put the to put a finger on it she felt invested in fade ratha and she felt and still guard like those were two characters for her

[00:47:26] but the way she described was some of the other characters felt flat that was how that was how she described it she felt like Chinese and Paul felt a little flat

[00:47:38] you're your thoughts in that the differences between the performances or those particular characters and I think something to do with the personalities that you see come out in those two in particular but I was wondering what you all thought

[00:47:54] well I have a question because so I thought like David I thought that the I'm not like is and I or Timothy Shilamay fan in general like this is only the second thing I've liked Timothy Shilamayan the first

[00:48:05] first was doing this part like no actually no but I felt like David that their chemistry really worked for me in this one and like when they had that kiss on top of the dune get it

[00:48:20] it really I was really sold on it and I thought the chemistry was great and I thought you know just showing them waking up in the tent together and you get this idea that they've just been living as a couple and it feels as you said so modern like it could just be people I know today

[00:48:35] I that that really works for me but I know for other people my friends were did not think that they had any chemistry and they did not

[00:48:46] they were complaining about her turn at the end about you know she's like well I'm not serving I'm serving my group not not my boyfriend and then she's like but then she goes to fight with them I'm like well yeah but that was in service of her the Fremen rather than in service and Paul I think and then of course yeah people are mad at Paul at the end but this should be

[00:49:09] I think something that's missing from the chony conversation and from a as a deviation you know in that idea of adaptation versus inspiration and then we sometimes we talk about the shippie test right the Tom shippies idea that you know you've got medium and message like did did as a creator or filmmaker you have to change or move something to be able to make the plot work and still hit the message that the original creator meant

[00:49:39] I think chonnie's turn away it's one of the strongest things that bill new does in terms of moving away from the original story but it works and I don't have a problem with it and I think it does it gives him different choices when he makes the next movie

[00:50:00] the thing that I think is missing from conversation though is the fact that Paul is now omniscient he can see everything he literally can see centuries into the future at this point and you can see the path of humanity

[00:50:16] and that's what his whole wrestling was up into this point that he knows that what's called the golden path in the later books is a very narrow and precarious path and it requires a whole bunch of stuff and it requires an insane transformation later on down the road to be able to shepherd humanity through this sort of dark age which is an interesting thing because when we talk about big science fiction stories we had foundation prior to the fact that we had a lot of things that we had to do with the first part of the story

[00:50:44] we had foundation prior to this in the fall of a galactic empire Frank Herbert is absolutely writing this story in the shadow of Asimov's work and there's still contemporaries I believe at this point

[00:50:55] and then of course we get into you know how where Star Wars borrowed from all of this as well but this idea that Paul can see all of these infinite futures and there's this one path

[00:51:08] so he can see Chinese path and he understands already what and he's made the full commitment into being Messiah not just for the Fremen but for the entire the entirety of humanity

[00:51:23] and so he's balancing his Paul Duke of a trade ease I love this person to the fact that now he's literally a galaxy brain

[00:51:34] and that he's got more than just that disease so I wonder if that was conveyed well enough because maybe that'll be something that the next movie will do better

[00:51:43] but you know I'm thinking of like brand Stark when brand ends up like tapping into the We're Wood tree network

[00:51:51] and the three-eyed crew the three-eyed Raven in the show he almost loses a bit of his humanity he loses his the importance of his personal connections

[00:52:02] you know it's like the people in his life are much less important because he's more like a god than he is a human

[00:52:10] and because the scale of his perception has just exploded so much this is exactly the same oh my god didn't even think about brand management here

[00:52:20] but in the show you know that actor portrays that as just becoming kind of robotic and wooden

[00:52:27] because he just doesn't have the connections to these these characters anymore but when I look at Paula Trady's toward the end of this movie

[00:52:37] he's still acting as if the relationships in his life matter in a way that you wouldn't expect of someone with galaxy brain

[00:52:51] right and so to me that was crucial for how I received that nearer to the last scene where he tells her

[00:53:01] I will love you as long as I breathe and then turns around and doesn't just propose but demands the hand

[00:53:12] I demand you know I will take the hand of your daughter and we will rule together it's a demand for marriage more than anything else

[00:53:19] and I'm sitting there with you know looking at this scene through Johnny's eyes thinking right oh my gosh that was one of those jaw dropping moment

[00:53:29] or just like I can't believe what I'm watching but that scene doesn't work if Paula Trady's has galaxy brain

[00:53:38] and he's acting the scene like he's you know brand stark right so anyway that's my little galaxy brain in this conversation

[00:53:46] I had a you mentioned golden path and Anthony I don't know if this is one point where you wouldn't want to close

[00:53:54] I'm going away give me a thumbs up when I can return

[00:53:59] okay so my understanding is a few books down this golden path is the path to save humanity from extinction correct

[00:54:09] but my understanding based on the numerous YouTube videos I watch is Paul veers off the path he actually doesn't go on the path

[00:54:18] and it's it's little two who actually picks up the mantle to continue that journey

[00:54:25] one do you think Vinny Denny will follow that and two does Paul know that at this moment

[00:54:34] I think that I think that Paul's story in Doom Part 3 will and should end the way it does in Doom Messiah

[00:54:45] with well I guess we don't want to spoil that but I think it should end the same way because yeah it's just complete disenchantment

[00:54:53] with it all yeah yeah yeah yeah I think that's this part of the story is Paul wrestling with his humanity and not being able to fully commit

[00:55:02] where later two is able to as from a childhood standpoint he has a different set of attachments

[00:55:09] different sort of world view and so it can be more committed to it where Paul grew up with love and affection in his life

[00:55:17] and all of this all this stuff I think it's safe to let Anthony know that this is the way to give him a thumbs up

[00:55:24] with that it's a tragedy though yes yes right right right so do you think without giving any specifics away

[00:55:31] do you think general audiences are ready for the full story of Paul and Tony

[00:55:39] when do you think didn't he actually go there into yes general audiences ready for that Shakespearean drama

[00:55:47] I think he's amping it up even with the groundwork he's laid by showing us fiercer versions of both Johnny and Irilong

[00:55:56] we also one of the things I liked about this movie it was Irilong's adaptation you know she's in the first book

[00:56:04] she's we only know of her presence because she's the one recording things like writing little blurbs

[00:56:10] that started chapter and then she only really comes into the story and full at the end what

[00:56:17] we see at the end of the movie here when she's suddenly given it's basically like hey honey so you're going to marry one of these two psychos

[00:56:25] oh good news it's the less psycho psycho kind of and here we get to see more of her dawning horror

[00:56:34] when she realizes she maybe doesn't have as much agency she thought like you know you think being a Benny Jeser at you are becoming this powerful witch woman

[00:56:42] but actually she's locked into this fate she's you know but I mean but how can you not know that I mean it seems like that is one of the qualifications of being a Benny Jeser

[00:56:55] that you are no longer in control you're told what kind of you're told what kind of children you're supposed to have

[00:57:02] you're giving very specific orders by the Reverend mothers as to where you go what you do it seems like if you become one

[00:57:09] you've already given into the idea that your life is no longer completely yours but it isn't that reflective of maybe this is something that Anthony can weigh in on I don't know how you

[00:57:20] but like when yeah okay but just just the idea of if someone joins a cult they think that they're getting some greater power of purpose out of it

[00:57:29] but often they are actually losing more than they realize until it's too late and they've lost it

[00:57:35] but I think this is a key difference with the Benny Jeser it is that you're there by consent and you are given you know

[00:57:43] you have to you're a willing participant and you're not a mushroom that's just kept in the dark

[00:57:49] that you are you are taught galactic histories you're taught the mission of the Benny Jeser and you are not just some sort of out of the way

[00:58:03] detached a minion but you are once you sort of get to a certain point you are fully read into a lot of what's going on

[00:58:12] you may not have operational knowledge of everything but you really understand you are there because you want to be part of this

[00:58:19] but there's a difference between understanding something and like fully rocking it you know to to understand how that applies to your life

[00:58:28] and how that's going to restrict you I have to bring up Wheel of Time real quick absolutely

[00:58:33] the ice that I are clearly you know Wheel of Time yeah Wheel of Time like Star Wars has some very clear a dune influences

[00:58:42] and the ice that I are one of them and the these are the sorceress women for those who don't read the books watch show

[00:58:49] and they you know they get this immense power because I learn how to channel and that is and how to be powerful politically in another way

[00:58:58] but at the same time they have to swear these three oaths that literally physically restrict them

[00:59:03] and you don't understand what that really means until you've gone that far

[00:59:09] Anthony do you have any perspectives on this did he come back I don't know Anthony are you there

[00:59:16] oh maybe he's gone gone all right I'm back okay we were we waved you back a while ago

[00:59:23] so I don't know how much you heard of this last conversation I heard nothing and I'm glad I did not

[00:59:28] oh well sorry we were talking about that the Benny just questions about okay good for it

[00:59:33] oh I was just going to say I have a couple questions for you dune experts number one

[00:59:40] I didn't pick this up on the first viewing of this movie but I kept on the second viewing

[00:59:47] all go drinks the water of life goes into a coma we're supposed to think he's near to death or something

[00:59:56] and then they find out where choney is Jessica uses the voice to tell one of her servants go find her

[01:00:07] as if that's a paramount importance she shows up she kind of scolds Jessica for allowing this to take place

[01:00:17] and then Jessica uses the voice on choney to tell her to do the thing you know whatever it is

[01:00:28] she uses a tear and a drop of the water of life puts on his lips and immediately he comes out of the coma

[01:00:37] but what I heard the second watch that I didn't hear the first watch was that as that's happening Jessica uses the voice

[01:00:45] on Paul and says wake up interesting I was going to ask you was it actually like the little thing

[01:00:54] that it was that really the tear drop of the teenage girl that wakes them up or was Jessica was it Jessica's voice

[01:01:03] that wakes him up because one of them leans to her prophecy and the other one leans to her propaganda

[01:01:09] right well I think the same yeah Lisa do you remember from the book is I do not remember

[01:01:14] well it is it is the whole thing in the book where you know her name means desert spring

[01:01:19] and you know so the and that's part of the prophecy but I think that it's absolutely you know there's some

[01:01:26] I don't know if it's luck that he falls for the girl with the right name and vice versa

[01:01:31] or if there is some sort of foresight that that would happen from and that's why

[01:01:37] well he has seen visions of her head at time right all the way back on Caledon yeah absolutely

[01:01:42] so there is some fadedness that's or at least foreseen itness in this but I do think that you are right

[01:01:50] that I don't think Johnny believes that it was her I think it was Jessica's voice

[01:01:55] Do you remember from the book Alicia because I do not remember how this whole scene goes down

[01:02:00] of Paul drinking the water of life I mean it's somewhat similarly it's you know

[01:02:07] that's this isn't a big change in this it's just that Chinese more reluctant in this version kind of is the biggest change I guess

[01:02:14] if I'm going to criticize this movie at all it's this section that I feel is the most underdeveloped and unirred

[01:02:24] and the one that I at least understood how the plot mechanical gear points are lining up

[01:02:32] the end battle is the end battle you know fighting fade you know all of that you know that that all is fine

[01:02:38] and it's just sort of compressed together as the closing chapter but it was this this act

[01:02:44] I don't know third act or whatever it is that just didn't quite work for me the same

[01:02:49] because suddenly she's showing up on a doctor and this tear in the water of life

[01:02:54] and she's like to her to the one guy who knows of this only you rather Reverend mother

[01:03:01] and then they go in and then the place is like full of people and in like there's

[01:03:06] throngs you know lots of people that are there so I I don't know if it's a time compression thing

[01:03:11] an editing thing but this was the weakest point of the movie for me

[01:03:15] and I think this does relate in some way to the question of whether Paul shift is well earned

[01:03:21] because you don't quite understand the passage how to measure the passage of time

[01:03:26] yeah at this stage of his journey I didn't seem to trip on it but I could see how other people could

[01:03:34] I like I said it's I didn't trip on it is just the one place where it was the most

[01:03:38] where the most thin you know there was the most fraying or the most edges that I could kind of see

[01:03:44] otherwise the like the time compression in the book he's in the desert for a couple of years

[01:03:49] you know and his sister is born and all this kind of stuff and in this it's less than nine months

[01:03:55] that they bring it all together then it's fine and I think it totally works in that regard

[01:04:01] can I ask about a well it's it's a spoiler for the first book so it's not a spoiler

[01:04:07] for the future movies but the biggest change from other than of course the Mentats were stripped

[01:04:13] out but that's I understand film yeah focus and the guild the guild was also

[01:04:17] and the guild yeah the good I they play a bigger role in do Messiah so I have to think that

[01:04:22] though we brought back more for that just really quick to on the whole southern hemisphere thing

[01:04:27] the guild is very much in the books about part of why the rest of the universe can't see

[01:04:32] what's going on in the southern hemisphere I was wondering about that

[01:04:35] yeah the guild does stuff down there the guild is it's politics but there's there's a reasons

[01:04:41] why the southern hemisphere is is not just because it's wild but there are actual choices

[01:04:47] being made by the powers of B I was saying that the biggest change is that Alia did not kill

[01:04:54] right right there which was I didn't mind it as much as I thought I was going to

[01:05:00] growing in although it's just such a cool way to establish that character but do you guys

[01:05:06] think that did you like Paul being the one to do that do you think that that's something

[01:05:10] that shows his character developments I like those of you who know in a different way

[01:05:16] I liked that Paul did it it was kind of weird how he did it like he just walked up to him

[01:05:21] and like no one was trying to stop him or anything and maybe because they had overpowered

[01:05:28] you know the start of car at some point at that point that he could just walk up

[01:05:32] and just do what he did is something that you could question whether or not how realistic

[01:05:37] that was but I like the fact that more or less realistic than a three-year-old doing it

[01:05:44] exactly it's definitely more realistic him actually doing some more less thinking

[01:05:49] whether or not everyone would just let him walk as casually as he did but then again

[01:05:54] it worked for me in the moment and watching it happen yeah as a film for all of his changes

[01:06:00] that he's made none of them none of them caught me in the moment especially in that first viewing

[01:06:05] I didn't feel a hitch or a moment I mean my only

[01:06:10] do one part one criticisms which I'm well well quoted on are I didn't like

[01:06:17] addiction and I didn't necessarily like his choice for how to play Jessica in the first movie

[01:06:23] yeah I feel like I'm going that down way down and she was fine with that

[01:06:27] and Rebecca Ferguson owned that vision and I thought that that was well

[01:06:31] but outside of that there's nothing in this movie the the variances between the book

[01:06:36] and this movie that ever I felt ever a friction point it all made sense

[01:06:40] and it all flowed very smoothly for me and I can see how he's making certain choices

[01:06:46] so that he has certain options for himself available in the in a next movie

[01:06:51] one question I have as it relates to the prophecy I was wondering how this plays out in the book

[01:06:56] we talked about how the many jizz are manufacturing this

[01:07:01] quiz I thought right or the missionary the protectiva or the the one who can see

[01:07:08] I don't know any of it all right maybe this will be all the same yeah

[01:07:13] because on one hand they're manufacturing it but it is coming true

[01:07:19] like he is exactly see the future it kind of reminds me of

[01:07:24] game of thrones in a way where a big aspect of game of thrones is the one true guide

[01:07:29] versus you know the guide of the seven or whatever right and

[01:07:34] good thing to get any here now you know that the which is follow

[01:07:38] but there is definitely some type of real magic going on as it relates to that

[01:07:42] one true guy in game of thrones like people are coming back from the dead

[01:07:45] people are coming back from the dead

[01:07:47] now miracle type things are absolutely happening and so

[01:07:52] it's kind of similar here with regards to

[01:07:56] doon where there is this manufactured aspect even the fact that they were trying to set up

[01:08:01] fade rathed a possibly be the courts etc you can tell they're trying to

[01:08:06] do all these machinations but you do have people actually for telling the

[01:08:11] future actually we to use present pressions and I know that plays a role in the

[01:08:16] future books as well being able to block the ability to kind of either see

[01:08:22] to be seen by people where that ability right yeah and so

[01:08:26] how does that play out in terms of like Paul as a prophecy does seem becoming

[01:08:33] true how can you manufacture that now if that is addressed at all

[01:08:39] I'd be interested to hear from Anthony on the question of gods and religion

[01:08:44] and ice and fire though yeah I'm more interested I mean I'm happy to do an

[01:08:50] entire podcast it's a good question like I think a better example of this

[01:08:58] would be like the we're with tree old gods where there's like

[01:09:03] legitimate like there's actually people in those trees right

[01:09:09] and so it's like you know some people just don't know how to tap into the

[01:09:13] network but some people do and they're actually able to do it they can

[01:09:17] they can see far into the future in all that business

[01:09:21] and these trees live forever so they they do kind of function as you know

[01:09:27] someone like brand could become a deity at some point if you wanted to project

[01:09:31] his consciousness into the in the network hmm you know do a second life in the

[01:09:37] network or something like that but here's the problem with relatedness to

[01:09:41] Dune and maybe this is just sort of my my limited scope on this but I'm

[01:09:49] wondering if the Benadgesura have the ability to make someone like Paul

[01:09:56] see particular visions because that would be an amazing way to manipulate

[01:10:02] some you know some some new prints or some Duke son or something like that

[01:10:09] and so I'm wondering it's like is it do the Benadgesura believe there are they

[01:10:15] convinced of their own prophecies or are they generating their own

[01:10:20] prophecy so I think it'd be both a little clarification here might help

[01:10:26] and it's nothing that it spoilers for the rest of the books because it's all

[01:10:30] spelled out in the first in these first two movies the Benadgesura are trying

[01:10:35] to create a male counterpart to what they are as a sisterhood

[01:10:43] right and the thing that we did it's important to know about the Benadgesura

[01:10:46] interesting okay yeah is not that it's magic the voice is not magic

[01:10:51] right they're everything that they do wait a second

[01:10:56] Amsterdam is collapsing yeah we need to pause here no I think she's okay you

[01:11:02] okay Lisa I've marked this in the cat the cats are playing chase and they

[01:11:09] just yeah the cats are a cat's her to get any anxious

[01:11:14] all right there we go are you stable they're playing chase so that's

[01:11:18] right I'm you did anyway so David say again now the Benadgesurs are trying

[01:11:24] to create a male version of themselves so it's like a bunch of nuns

[01:11:31] who like you know we could really use some monks yeah let's try to figure out

[01:11:35] how to create an order of monks that do the same thing as we do so what they

[01:11:39] do what they have is total body awareness so think of you know all of our

[01:11:45] our mystique and mysticism and that's what they can take the point but they don't

[01:11:50] want monks they want one message that they can control because when they take

[01:11:57] the water of life and become a reverend mother yeah they have full genetic

[01:12:02] recall they can literally talk to every single ancestor in their line but

[01:12:08] they're related to and so they have a giant rolodex and so they are they have this

[01:12:13] backwards awareness of all of history prior going back prior so they've

[01:12:19] a lot of the books talk about this whole thing of how you've got to be able

[01:12:23] to hold all these you know manage all these voices in your head

[01:12:27] and then with the Leah she that answers her before she's even born so she has

[01:12:33] no training to be able to manage yeah exactly the other thing is as they have

[01:12:37] total body awareness in the sense that they can control every muscle they can

[01:12:41] turn on and off every nerve in their body they are in complete control of their

[01:12:46] physical presence so they're deadly fighters they the ability for them to strike

[01:12:51] is faster than they can hear they can literally hear your nerves firing and can

[01:12:57] react even before you know what you're doing they would be such cool dandy

[01:13:02] characters and the voice I mean there are to tabletop RPGs there are yeah

[01:13:08] and the voice is not magic the voice is I'm I'm so cute into you and to your

[01:13:15] psychology that I can physiology and your physiology that I can use tonality

[01:13:21] and suggestion and psychology to affect you at a sub awareness level

[01:13:30] I can affect your your neurological system without you being aware of it

[01:13:34] so that's how the voice works and so because they can see backwards

[01:13:39] they've got that point of view but they can't what they can't do is they can't

[01:13:43] see forwards and every time they've tried to have a male become a

[01:13:48] Benny juzoret and drink the water of life it doesn't end well

[01:13:53] and yeah basically and so that's what the quiz at hot rack is that they've been

[01:13:59] doing this this complex breeding protocol to try to find the one person who can

[01:14:06] take water of life and do the poison transmutation so not unlike star wars

[01:14:12] where they're trying to find a force sensitive clone kind of thing they're trying

[01:14:16] to figure out how do we get a biological yeah a person who can handle this

[01:14:23] particular thing and so all is premature Paul is one generation ahead he was

[01:14:29] supposed to be a woman right who was supposed to be married to fade Rao

[01:14:32] thought and then they were supposed to produce the quiz that's how right so

[01:14:35] that's they have this issue of talking about control like okay so

[01:14:39] failed Ratha is is a horrible you know murderous cannibal but we can

[01:14:45] control him because he's he is subject to his base sexual desires things

[01:14:50] like that whereas you know Paul he was supposed to be a female but his

[01:14:56] mother would not be controlled she decided her love for the Duke and wanting

[01:15:00] to give him the sunny wanted was more important than following the Benny

[01:15:04] juzoret so now he's and he's even less able to be control because you

[01:15:09] know he's raised by this woman and as an atreides he was schooled in weapons

[01:15:15] and tactics with one of the best swordsmen in the world he was yeah

[01:15:20] in the mint hats which are human computers so there's this thing in the

[01:15:23] June history the prehistory called the but Larry and jihad where they got

[01:15:28] rid of thinking machines so humans have become computers and so they drink

[01:15:33] something a spice infused liquid that helps speed up their mind

[01:15:38] and he was taught Benny jester at skills by the lady Jessica so he has

[01:15:43] you know a noble ancestry computer mindset and Benny jester at prana

[01:15:50] been to you know all this extra teaching and so he is he is something that

[01:15:55] they didn't plan for but lady Jessica had had created for his love for Duke

[01:16:01] so I have a question is it that the prophecy of the leith and al-gaïb

[01:16:08] just happened to correspond with the quits at satirac that the Benny

[01:16:14] jester trying to create or they actually because or did they actually

[01:16:19] infused this prophecy into their firm and culture they infused it for

[01:16:24] that yeah to later play it out with their own crazik hot or act and they didn't

[01:16:30] intend it for it to be Paul but they did intend to use this prophecy

[01:16:35] but all the specific things that the leith and al-gaïb is supposed to do like

[01:16:38] he's going to know your ways he's going to do all these things was that

[01:16:42] infused by the Benny jester or was that something that the firm and culture

[01:16:46] well that's probably from his teaching that he's just so in the book you

[01:16:51] especially see from his perspective a lot how keenly observant he is so

[01:16:56] he's just because of he was trained as a menta because and Benny jester

[01:17:00] and all these things combined together you know he just sees how stillgar

[01:17:05] has his suit and he intuitively is like oh okay well that must be how it's

[01:17:09] no I know no I know that but the fremen have a prophecy that the leith and al-gaïb

[01:17:14] will do these things so my question is is that prophecy of him being able

[01:17:20] to do all these things something that the been in jester we put into the fremen

[01:17:23] because even the 1984 dune mentions it it is okay got it yeah I think

[01:17:30] we're getting close to our exit point here so I feel like we could probably

[01:17:36] talk for another hour easily can I ask one question here sure yeah all right

[01:17:43] this is a question from my son okay this is a question that the youth are

[01:17:50] asking online there was a bunch of teenagers in my theater last night I'm

[01:17:54] really wondering how this is resonating with them yeah go ahead have any

[01:17:58] of you seen attack on Titan no I heard about it no I'm aware of the anime

[01:18:04] right yeah yeah so he wanted to ask who's who's a more well-written

[01:18:10] character politreaties Anakin Skywalker or Aaron Yeager and I was like I

[01:18:17] don't know man I have I can't answer that one ask because I think I

[01:18:24] think that the reason he's asking is that he's seen a lot of the politreaties

[01:18:29] in those others yeah sure or you could say Randall Thor from Wheel of Time

[01:18:35] or yeah yeah all right okay so anyway that was his his big question sorry

[01:18:41] Aaron we failed you I'm sure somebody out there has the answer to that

[01:18:48] I had the distinct feeling last night when I was watching it when I was at the

[01:18:55] theater for my second viewing that when this comes out in video on demand I

[01:18:59] want to do like a scene by scene conversation of this because there's so

[01:19:04] much more that we could have conversation around and about but I really

[01:19:10] just had a great time talking today and thank you guys all for very

[01:19:14] very much for showing up well thank you for inviting us yeah any closing

[01:19:20] thoughts Anthony that you have and we'll go around with everybody just any

[01:19:24] final yeah I just as someone who's not well verse in the Dune Universe

[01:19:30] I feel like my entire life is a complete fraud I feel like star wars stole all of

[01:19:36] its good ideas from Dune and I've been sitting here I feel like I've just been

[01:19:44] eating my whole life with Star Wars and this is like actual

[01:19:48] of Michelin star restress from the sci-fi connoisseurs sometimes

[01:19:54] sometimes like the over the counter pizza is good you don't always have to go

[01:19:58] to Naples that's right oh we're losing you a little bit of we've got Anthony on

[01:20:02] lag a little bit there so um the wrong any any close up thoughts for you yeah

[01:20:08] this is uh once again thanks for having me on I think uh I love I love movies and

[01:20:14] stories like this that have such profound themes like religion and

[01:20:20] leadership and the the the dangers of following charismatic leaders too much which

[01:20:26] I think are all played out in this movie and in the in the stories I'm very

[01:20:32] interested to see how Dene takes um part the next one uh where he takes it if you'll be able to make

[01:20:40] it interesting because my understanding Messiah there's a lot less action

[01:20:44] Messiah right uh we don't well we'll see what he does in the book there's not

[01:20:50] of off-world action right right so I think they might yeah I think we might see some of

[01:20:56] because in the books it just kind of picks up after this war plays out yeah right

[01:21:02] right right see more the war because yeah uh that's a good point that's a good

[01:21:06] point so um speaking of which if if if Paul had lost that fight what would they have done

[01:21:14] with yeah I mean they would okay okay we lost we'll go back to the south

[01:21:20] the Benny Jesuit they were like happy to follow Fade Ratha and I saw someone actually arguing

[01:21:26] that it would be better for everyone if Fade Ratha had won because there wouldn't be

[01:21:30] the war I was like no I think it would be faster and uglier

[01:21:34] even yeah I think so without good out control it would be an out control

[01:21:38] for sure my if you've listening to this podcast you've seen the movie so we told

[01:21:44] you right up at the front I hope you've come back and seen this and I'm just

[01:21:48] really interested to see how this is going to this can be like a cultural inflection

[01:21:52] point because suddenly there's a whole new group of people who are going to coming

[01:21:57] to them this material it's all over social media the memes are are all out

[01:22:02] there so I'm really fascinated to see how this is an inflection point for us

[01:22:06] and I'm really interested to see hopefully it's not going to be more than a couple

[01:22:11] of years until the next movie is out I'm pretty excited and I was really glad

[01:22:16] to be able to talk with all of you and I hope we can do it again some point

[01:22:20] Alicia last word close us out yeah I think that's the script

[01:22:26] and the music for part three is already done we just needed an official out loud

[01:22:31] green light so they can start filming as soon as I think you know they're just

[01:22:37] wrapping up some pre-production stuff but I am completely turned around from

[01:22:43] you know being iffy on part one and now I'm all in on part two can't wait

[01:22:48] for part three just so excited to have this as a dude fan as a film fan

[01:22:53] and can't wait to go back and see it again I hope it stays actually in the

[01:22:57] theater for a while so that I can see it and Dolby yeah they will re-release

[01:23:04] it before last year it's going to get all the nominations that's right

[01:23:10] well everyone thank you so very much it had a really great time today I'll do

[01:23:14] an outro on my own and cut everyone loose but Ron Dawson thank you very much

[01:23:19] Alicia we will see absolutely we'll see you again very soon Anthony always a

[01:23:23] pleasure I know you've been busy but it's good to hear your voice and sure

[01:23:27] thing yeah we'll talk to everyone soon all right thank you okay well I hope

[01:23:33] you have enjoyed that conversation I'm here just by myself to record the

[01:23:38] outgoing credits thank you again to Alicia Ron in Anthony as a

[01:23:44] podcaster this is the kind of thing that I live for I love these deep

[01:23:48] conversations where we can have broad ranging perspectives and changes of

[01:23:54] views and talk about the things that we really enjoy I really am looking

[01:23:59] forward to doing a full movie review like doing scene by scene because it's just

[01:24:04] so rich but we'll see when that comes out on video and demand we'll hopefully do

[01:24:08] that just really quickly wrapping up the podcast if you are interested in

[01:24:12] supporting these kinds of conversations and supporting the various

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[01:25:00] things that we're covering we also have all of our affiliates Anthony and

[01:25:04] Alicia both have their own podcasts Alicia is at worship desk but she's

[01:25:09] going to be spinning up some new stuff she's got some star wars stuff in the

[01:25:12] pipeline Anthony has properly Howard movie review with his buddy Anthony and they do

[01:25:16] old movies and then we're going to be doing severance coverage with Anthony and

[01:25:20] Steve once we know when severance two is coming out then also if you know

[01:25:26] Marilyn Arpequila our favorite token scholar she just started up her own

[01:25:31] podcast called rings and rituals you got to go to the show notes you got to look

[01:25:34] for the link there and then go subscribe to order again go to our website

[01:25:38] and they're looking at all of the rituals that are embedded in season one of

[01:25:42] the rings of power and looking at how ritual plays an important part on our

[01:25:46] daily lives we are in the middle of doing our show gun coverage

[01:25:50] and we've got lots on the plate for this summer it's going to be very busy with

[01:25:56] the act light the boys the bear hot house of the dragon lastly just a shout

[01:26:03] out to all of the people who do support us at our at the top tier levels

[01:26:07] our discord server boosters opus the machine gnarles Aaron Kay tiller the

[01:26:13] thriller and dork of the ninjas to our lore master subscribers our top tier

[01:26:18] patreon subscribers patreon super cast subscribers

[01:26:21] marcia mark h michael g michelle e david w brion p nick w sc peter o h patina

[01:26:28] w atom s nancy m dov 71 brion 860 3 Frederick H Sarah L garrison Eric F Matthew

[01:26:37] M Sarah M DJ Nua andra b quang you did i Jedi Bob Nathan T Alex V Aaron T sub

[01:26:46] aaron k dally v 21 gnarles and ever last but never least

[01:26:53] adrian thank you also very much we'll see on the next one

[01:27:16] or other entities thanks for listening