Shōgun - E10 - A Dream of a Dream

[00:00:00] Hey listeners! If you've been listening to our show, Chances are you've heard the wonderful

[00:00:07] contributions of our favorite Tolkien scholar Marilyn R. Pukila. Marilyn just launched her own

[00:00:12] podcast on our network called Rings and Rituals. Join me and Dr. Sara Brown on our journey through

[00:00:17] The Lord of the Rings, The Rings of Power, through the Lens of Ritual. Episodes drop every

[00:00:22] other Wednesday on the Rings and Rituals feed linked in the show notes. See you there!

[00:00:47] Welcome to the Shogun podcast, where The Lorehounds, your guides to the political

[00:00:51] intrigues of feudal Japan. I'm Jon. And I'm Malaysia, and this is our coverage for Episode 10,

[00:00:58] A Dream of a Dream of the FX Limited Series Shogun. Today we'll start off with our hot takes on the

[00:01:03] episode, and then we've got a couple of historical notes after which we'll get into a full discussion

[00:01:09] of plot and character along with our favorite moments. We're going to save up all our

[00:01:12] listener feedback for the next podcast, which will be a season wrap-up. So please do send

[00:01:18] us feedback as we'd love to hear your thoughts and reactions. Send it to Shogun at TheLorehounds.com

[00:01:24] or head to the contact page on the website and use the form or record us a voicemail that we can

[00:01:29] drop right into the podcast. It's your last chance to write in about Shogun, so please get

[00:01:35] in your feedback ASAP. Support the community on Supercaster Patreon. Join the conversation

[00:01:41] on Discord and take a listen to our affiliate podcasts. There's links for everything in

[00:01:45] the show notes and we'll talk more about it in the outro. So, Alicia, you're here,

[00:01:52] but I think we have another special guest with us for a few minutes.

[00:01:56] Is there someone else lurking on this call?

[00:01:59] You know, I may be podcasting from the inside of my car from another stage, and I may be

[00:02:07] dealing with the effects of a long COVID recovery, but my skills are sharper than ever.

[00:02:14] Don't leave my body in a yard to fill the bellies of dogs.

[00:02:18] Would you rather be eaten by fish?

[00:02:21] I think that might be an interesting experience, because you're floating in the water and

[00:02:25] you know...

[00:02:26] It sounds so painful.

[00:02:30] You just kind of bleed out. Well, we're starting the podcast off on a dark tone.

[00:02:36] I mean, I think suits a series.

[00:02:38] Okay. Well, David's recording from his phone, so please excuse his audio quality, but he'll be

[00:02:44] back on full swing for the season wrap up if you want to hear all his takes. Hot takes, everyone.

[00:02:50] Yeah, John, what did you think of this finale episode?

[00:02:54] I shared a preview of my thoughts on the Discord channel last night.

[00:02:59] Under hot takes, I just wrote fucking masterpiece.

[00:03:02] Yeah.

[00:03:03] It was... It subverted my expectations in the best way, and that phrase triggers me after Game of Thrones,

[00:03:10] but it's just the best way to describe what the showrunners did. I mean, they created a situation

[00:03:16] where we were all expecting for the last two episodes, one of them having this huge battle,

[00:03:21] and Torodaga is going to come out on top, this Victor covered in blood and just rolling

[00:03:29] over everyone. And instead he's like, no, I already won without ever striking a blow.

[00:03:35] And that was an incredible moment. I mean, we're 15 minutes to the end,

[00:03:41] and I look at the timer meaning, and I'm like, how are they going to wrap this up?

[00:03:46] Turns out we don't need to wrap it up because Torodaga has already wrapped it up in the future.

[00:03:50] Right. Crimson Rain is already falling.

[00:03:53] Yep. Yeah. And Crimson Sky was the maricoh he made along the way.

[00:04:00] Yeah. What did you think? What did you think, David?

[00:04:04] I was pretty impressed with this show. I don't want to get into my season thoughts,

[00:04:10] but the way that they brought this episode to a close was so confident and so clear-eyed.

[00:04:22] I was just enraptured with it. I was kind of transported while watching this, and one of the

[00:04:30] big thoughts that I had was the ending was so consistent with Torodaga's character and what

[00:04:37] his motives were the whole time he was trying to avoid a war, a mass war. Sure, he'll sacrifice a few

[00:04:47] best friends and trusted vassals, but in the balance it's kind of a trolley style problem

[00:04:57] where he'll sacrifice a few to avoid this large-scale war.

[00:05:03] And I think a couple of episodes ago they set that up with him as the young warlord,

[00:05:09] that lesson really went to heart for him. And so to be able to tell that story and to tell

[00:05:15] that core motivation of Torodaga in such a quiet and subtle and just very ethereal.

[00:05:30] There were some ethereal parts to this, but it just had this

[00:05:34] transportive element where I just felt like I was floating along the whole episode.

[00:05:41] And to be able to do that with an episode of television is an incredible feat. So hats off to

[00:05:46] the creators and yeah, I was expecting, I was really, you know, are we going to get some nice

[00:05:51] good fights? And in some ways I'm more satisfied than with that. I think that they were very

[00:05:59] smart in how they played this out. Right, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I was hit super

[00:06:06] hard by this episode that it put me in a dark place for the rest of the day, I have to be honest.

[00:06:14] I was almost like not mad at it but just like, oh man, I don't need help accessing these

[00:06:19] emotions of despair and sadness. But I think that it is a fucking masterpiece. It is a

[00:06:28] perfect emotional punch, just the way they tied everything together and they gave each character

[00:06:33] the most appropriate fate. It's a cynical show, but it is, it was always a cynical story and

[00:06:41] yeah, I had to though, I had to compose a tanka which is, you know, it's not a haiku, it's a

[00:06:48] it's a tanka is like, it's like a haiku in that it's measured by

[00:06:55] syllables, but it's not instead of the 575, it's 57577. So okay, this is my tanku for,

[00:07:03] my tanku for Mariko. My heart is heavy, spongy, soft and sopping blood, the maggots nibble,

[00:07:10] but there's no black for blackthorn feasting, just a bonfire of her words.

[00:07:17] I think Yabashige would be very proud of you. That was awesome.

[00:07:22] No, Yabashige find a reason to nitpick it. Mariko would like. He'd be proud of me.

[00:07:27] Yeah, but it was it was, it was characters and scenes and stories that I will remember for the

[00:07:37] rest of my life. Yeah, yeah, definitely my show of the year so far.

[00:07:43] Yeah, I mean, it's hard to beat in terms of quality, although, you know, there are other

[00:07:47] happier shows that maybe I walked away with with more of a spring in my step.

[00:07:52] Yeah, yeah. It's batting a 10 for me for sure. I just don't know if it's going to go to an 11, which is

[00:08:00] a game changer like has it changed the state of the industry in terms of a...

[00:08:05] I'm just going to tell you you're wrong right now.

[00:08:06] You think I know, well okay fine, you think it's a 9.

[00:08:10] I'm at a 9. Wow, a 9. Okay. I mean, it's just there's little things like,

[00:08:15] I know the language thing, the European language thing bothers me more than anyone

[00:08:19] else. That's fine, we all have our... You're saying the fact that they don't have anybody

[00:08:23] speaking Portuguese? Well yeah, just the fact that they treat all European languages like they

[00:08:28] sound the same and I guess that's sort of a nice reverse, just in general the way that

[00:08:36] Westerners are treated in this show as is appropriate. It's from the Japanese perspective

[00:08:40] and their outsiders and maybe we all sound the same but it just made certain scenes more

[00:08:44] confusing than they need to be and I don't know. There's just little things like that that I nitpick

[00:08:49] but I think that this is still one of the greatest shows ever created.

[00:08:54] Quick shout out to another podcast, Alicia. I didn't post this in the discord yet but there was

[00:09:00] a good interview with the showrunners on the watch podcast. Chris and Andy interview

[00:09:08] the showrunners and there's a bunch of conversation about how they went through

[00:09:12] the translation process and actually how they resolved a lot of those questions and issues.

[00:09:18] It was really interesting to get that feedback of they translated and then the production folks

[00:09:27] on the Japan side were like, oh this is good but it's not great so then they went to the whole

[00:09:32] other thing and then the actors added stuff. At least on that side of the equation it was

[00:09:38] apparently an extraordinarily well-crafted production in terms of making sure that the

[00:09:44] language was right. Yeah there's been good coverage also on the prestige TV feed also.

[00:09:51] Our favorite ringer. Well I think that's enough hot takes. I think let's move into some historical

[00:09:58] context so I didn't actually put this in the outline but I just wanted to discuss a little

[00:10:03] bit about what happens next and if you want a more full discussion of this the show's official

[00:10:08] podcast does a good job of outlining everything but this is a real thing that happened. I mean

[00:10:15] not exactly in every detail but this idea of the Tokugawa Shogunate which is the real world

[00:10:22] version of Torinaga just takes over Japan basically and sets up the longest standing

[00:10:28] Shogunate in Japan. It begins the Edo period. Edo of course becomes Tokyo eventually and it

[00:10:35] lasts from 1603 to 1868 so past the US Civil War Torinaga is still you know ruling through his

[00:10:44] ancestors and it's super impressive. It has its ups and downs because it is a very peaceful era.

[00:10:52] It's also very isolationist. I think the show did a good job of showing why

[00:10:56] the Tokugawa Shogunate would be a little bit isolationist and a little bit wary of foreigners

[00:11:02] especially after being taken advantage of by the Portuguese and probably later the Dutch and English

[00:11:08] but it was like kind of a Japanese Renaissance where they're having

[00:11:13] you know all these arts and cultural cultural advancements. We saw Torinaga starting to

[00:11:20] set up Edo right with this is the official sex work district. This is the official church area

[00:11:26] right next to the sex work district and one thing they didn't talk about is that you know

[00:11:32] they made it Japan very isolationist so they weren't so taken advantage of after that and

[00:11:38] that kind of allowed this to thrive. Fair enough. Fair enough but yeah I mean this was a real

[00:11:45] fundamental shift in Japanese politics and the emperor basically I know they were saying on the

[00:11:52] official podcast the emperor was basically a figurehead during this period and the Tokugawa

[00:11:57] Shogunate really just ruled everything. Yeah I think that it's I you know I don't want them

[00:12:04] to do a sequel series to this you know I think that this is perfect. Well we already have one

[00:12:08] it's blue-eyed samurai. Okay fair enough I am gonna watch that finally next but I would love if they

[00:12:16] did similar to the James Colvel novels which again I have not read but I know that they are each

[00:12:22] focused on different characters in different periods and places and I would love if this

[00:12:27] same crew with this same historical attention to detail came back and did more stories like this

[00:12:34] in other parts of Japanese or wider broader Asian history. That would be very cool.

[00:12:42] An anthology series would be great even if they did it like American Horror Story and

[00:12:46] recast the same people every season but as different characters. Yeah I think this production

[00:12:54] lasted something along the lines of five plus years for them to work on it obviously there was

[00:13:00] a COVID curveball in there but I agree with the point in that they built a process and a knowledge

[00:13:12] base and they found actors and production companies and translator companies and weapons

[00:13:18] masters and set deck and all of this kind of stuff that they've built an incredible resource

[00:13:24] for being able to break this high level prestige drama I would certainly be in favor of them if

[00:13:31] they were willing to dedicate another you know three four five years of their lives to producing

[00:13:36] something on this scale. I mean it's literally their job so it is. It really is. Well I guess

[00:13:43] I guess the biggest problem with it is one of the biggest reasons the show stands out

[00:13:49] is the authenticity to historical customs and historical you know costuming and language and

[00:13:56] whatnot. Even props. Yeah and every time you change periods you got to redo everything from

[00:14:03] scratch almost. That's true. And so I think it would still be a five year process to do another

[00:14:09] season. Well but without the COVID curveball as David put it I think three years seems

[00:14:17] well yeah but then they have to break it down. I've just set a reminder I'll be checking back in.

[00:14:28] We need to get you a job over at FX. I was listening to the official podcast. I only started

[00:14:36] the episode nine listening to the official podcast but they had a really moving interview

[00:14:41] with Clevelle's daughter actually who I guess was an executive producer on the show or some

[00:14:45] kind of producer and she had said she praised the show and she said you know basically my dad was

[00:14:52] focused on the characters and storytelling. He was an entertainer first but what FX added

[00:14:57] was the authenticity and the truth to history and that really made it come alive.

[00:15:05] And my favorite thing from that interview is where she said where they scatter the ashes

[00:15:11] with Fuji at the end is apparently where her own father's ashes are scattered in real life

[00:15:17] in that lake. Wow wow that's cool that's a cool detail I haven't listened to that one yet.

[00:15:23] Yeah that's lovely. All right why don't we get into the full episode now. So I just wanted to

[00:15:30] bring back a theme that we've been discussing throughout the season fate right and this

[00:15:38] comes up a bunch during this episode because you have Torinaga talking about Black Thorn

[00:15:46] saying it's not his fate to leave Japan but isn't that just because Torinaga stranded him there

[00:15:51] marooned him. I mean it's so interesting to talk about fate in the context of like

[00:15:58] who is making fate right and then you have a similar thing where

[00:16:03] Yabashige says to him what is it like to shape the wind to your will and he's like I don't

[00:16:08] shape the wind I just study it but is that even true?

[00:16:14] Right I mean I think that that was one of that was my favorite quote of the entire episode because

[00:16:20] I do think it is very true that the people who they're like oh you're pulling the puppet strings

[00:16:25] like no we're just studying yeah how the way the wind blows. The wind is a great analogy

[00:16:32] because it is something you cannot control. You cannot control the things in life like your

[00:16:38] sun slipping on a rock and dying but you can study these things so you know how to respond,

[00:16:45] how to adapt and how to dance in the wind so to speak. But Torinaga does sort of control the

[00:16:52] wind for other people he's at least blowing fans in different directions. He's got wind funnels

[00:17:00] set up. It's true it's true I mean like destroying Blackthorn's ship preventing him from returning

[00:17:04] to England is him shaping Blackthorn's wind at least. It's really interesting to consider that

[00:17:12] but I think you're right that's a really good point that Torinaga really is a master improviser

[00:17:16] and he's sort of windsurfing right? And the way that he... I think you know Torinaga at the

[00:17:24] beginning of the series is thinking and even in the flashback to the taiko's death he's thinking

[00:17:30] all right now's not the time and now it would be a revolt but people are going to get really tired

[00:17:36] of disorder and I'm going to be there to bring them some order. I mean and he's so Machiavellian

[00:17:42] but better him than other leaderships that we see maybe in the present world anyway. I think

[00:17:49] it brings in an interesting as well as to how he... I don't know that he predict he hoped that

[00:17:57] Lady Ocheba would come around in some way and so when he gets that letter from her there's that

[00:18:04] flood of release of emotion on his face present on his face that the hope that he had hoped for

[00:18:13] has come through and it is I think it is a really good analogy that the windsurfing thing which is

[00:18:21] I can put myself in this position and only hope and if the wind blows the right way then maybe

[00:18:26] I can catch this wave or whatever. And when he does catch that wave of Lady Ocheba coming around

[00:18:32] it's such a powerful thing because he now knows that he can avoid this war

[00:18:38] that all of these deaths that he's had to order, suffer, live through,

[00:18:45] connive to position people to die in these ways it means something and those deaths are not in

[00:18:52] vain which I also think it's a really interesting commentary on his character. We've all been

[00:18:59] rooting for Torinaga. He's been set up as sort of a good guy for us but he is also not

[00:19:06] above ordering the deaths of some villagers to trick Blackthorn into having a moral crisis moment

[00:19:14] to see which way he's going to land. So you know he's a complex character and I think that's

[00:19:20] another thing I love about the show is that there's no simple black or white good guy, bad guy.

[00:19:25] Torinaga is as much of a gaslighter and manipulator as anybody. He can be cruel. Yeah absolutely.

[00:19:33] He can be really cruel and that is such an interesting character that we're rooting for.

[00:19:39] It reminds me of Jamie Lannister right is like we start rooting for him because he makes it turn

[00:19:43] around. Torinaga's almost the opposite is he starts doing shadier stuff as the series goes on.

[00:19:51] As he gets more and more boxed into positions he's got to sacrifice bigger and bigger

[00:19:56] pieces to be able to get it done but then he has that ultimate objective which is to

[00:20:02] create a stable and peaceful Japan that can flourish over a couple of hundred years. That's

[00:20:10] an incredible legacy but it's the brutality of the moment in the brutality of the

[00:20:17] as much as there is a culture of beauty and life and subtlety. It's also a place where

[00:20:26] loyalty and honor play these huge roles and that sets up these conflicts so that when Blackthorn

[00:20:34] has this moment of crisis is it hope or is it faith you know when Muragi translates for him there.

[00:20:43] It's a really powerful moment and so when you compare that to Torinaga's moment of when he has

[00:20:51] faith and hope that Kishiba is going to come around it really does affect him and

[00:20:56] Yernata Sonata really shows us that in his portrayal and in the character of Torinaga

[00:21:02] just the face the subtle facial emotions of him like almost breaking out in tears

[00:21:09] right because he's so happy and relieved. You know what I love about this series is

[00:21:15] that you know people complain it didn't end with a big battle we got a hint of it of course but

[00:21:21] I think that this is showing we're so used to historical epics like Braveheart and such

[00:21:26] you know the sacrifices that are made on the battlefield and this show shows you that it's

[00:21:32] all a battlefield you know the entire political landscape and this is about the sacrifices made

[00:21:38] on that battlefield you know. Yeah Marga Hirma too all of them. Yeah that's a really good

[00:21:46] point and it's just because it's not at scale doesn't mean it doesn't have the impact.

[00:21:51] Right because these are important people that we're still talking about centuries later.

[00:21:56] Yeah I think the case of Mariko even her like they use some of her real poetry in this I believe

[00:22:03] that and the effect that she had and her death had and the point was made on another podcast

[00:22:11] they were like here we are hundreds of years later talking about her and her effect and her

[00:22:16] impact of her words. Right. The bonfire that she's made. Yeah Hosekawa Grasio really had a real

[00:22:23] impact in the real world. Absolutely yeah apparently there are still communities that

[00:22:29] revere her in an almost saint-like way. Do you know though that apparently Adams the

[00:22:34] real life Blackthorn never met the real life Mariko like that was a little fiction never even better.

[00:22:42] Oh wow. The real life Blackthorn make it back to your own. No he stayed in Japan. Yeah he did

[00:22:48] stay in Japan. Okay yeah all right so it's another nice little historical parallel there.

[00:22:54] That was another thing in this episode there are a lot of little rhyming couplets we talked

[00:22:58] a lot about that during True Detective a show I know John just loves it's gonna rank high

[00:23:03] in his list. But there's a lot of little rhyming couplets like when Torinaga is having the audience

[00:23:12] with Yabashige right that was the same place where Blackthorn was first brought before I believe it

[00:23:18] was Omi no Yabashigu was there so it was sort of reversed or when Blackthorn presents his weapons

[00:23:24] to Omi so there's a lot of little parallels and echoes throughout the whole thing so I like

[00:23:29] that they and I saw on the outline that you had mentioned of the dream sequence I don't know if we

[00:23:35] should talk about that now or if you want to kick it later. Yeah let's go into it right away you know

[00:23:40] the dream of a dream I kind of wanted to be like yeah did we like this because this was probably

[00:23:44] the most controversial part of the whole season. I was a little confused at first but on my second

[00:23:50] watch I really got what it did and how it functions and I liked the fact that we see the cross in his

[00:24:00] hand never mind his grandchildren you know they're like oh he's a little whatever. These savages.

[00:24:09] The cross in his hands it set me up the first time I watched it to go okay he survives he

[00:24:17] carries his love for Mariko with him you know he's obviously a prospered and has had family

[00:24:28] you know back in Europe and so it set me up to be thinking that oh he's going to make it through

[00:24:34] and all this other stuff is going to happen and then when the when he's out on the water with

[00:24:41] Fuji and he lets the cross go it was a big surprise for me because I was like oh but

[00:24:47] in the dream right that's a foreshadowing right that's a jump to the future and then I realized

[00:24:52] how they set up the dream that was just when he was discussed and unconscious but but that moment

[00:24:58] when he lets the cross go is for me more poignant because they had falsely led me to this conclusion

[00:25:08] that right kept it and he lived and so then when that moment happens it's not just a

[00:25:14] papp-sappy moment but it's actually a very profound and and unexpected because I had a different

[00:25:23] expectation they use they subverted the language of television on me like oh look here's the foreshadowing

[00:25:31] you know and he survives and it's like nope that's not what actually happens and I so

[00:25:38] the first watching I was confused by second watching I loved it and I thought it was a

[00:25:41] perfect device yeah and and he's letting go of the crucifix just like he lets go of his

[00:25:51] sort of european based dreams and ambitions in the scene in Torinaga yeah that's a good

[00:25:56] yeah he says it's not his war yeah um I I thought that was like the most depressing part of the

[00:26:02] episode until I realized that it was a dream and you know and it was like oh he's just gonna

[00:26:09] stay in japan being a clown for Torinaga and rebuilding his ship forever I'm like yeah well no

[00:26:14] that's not a bad life to be honest it sounds way better at this point than going back to

[00:26:21] yeah as you have in the notes bratty racist grandchildren

[00:26:27] it seems like a good life until you realize Torinaga is gonna break every ship

[00:26:31] oh no it's crazy is an earthquake every single time you finish a ship

[00:26:36] he had one plank left don't affect the water I don't know Japanese earthquakes are different

[00:26:43] yeah so he does have bratty racist grandchildren in the uh in the dream of a dream and he does

[00:26:48] look like regrets right can I can I also just say I thought that the makeup on him as an old man

[00:26:54] looked pretty bad and I was like but then when I found out it was a dream of a dream I was like

[00:26:59] okay I guess that's just a young man's picture of himself as an old man

[00:27:02] he can't imagine his face changing yeah

[00:27:07] I will say that the the way that they used this device and like I mentioned you know subverting

[00:27:13] the language of television you know we had certain expectations it really reminds me of what

[00:27:18] Noah Hawley does with Fargo where they start out every episode with this is a true story

[00:27:24] the names have been changed but it sets up this discordant thing in your mind that then when

[00:27:33] plot plays out and the characters play out you get surprised and you get delight and you get to

[00:27:39] you're you're looking at the story and the characters from a different vantage point so not

[00:27:44] only did the showrunners you know and all of the writers do just a beautiful job of

[00:27:51] illuminating all of these characters in this time period but they were really smart about

[00:27:57] television and they were really smart about how to produce this season and we can talk about it

[00:28:03] more in the season end but yeah I just thought it was a a really clever device and and did something

[00:28:12] that was unexpected in in the show and I think it added to the overall

[00:28:17] um uh uh excellence of this season finale to bring this to a a complete and satisfying close

[00:28:27] and I think that device does play some significant role in in landing the landing the final episode

[00:28:36] speaking of closing I guess the polls are closing on whether to go to war with Torinaga

[00:28:43] and the council's meeting Ishido is clearly clinging to power and he has to stop everyone

[00:28:49] from taking a re-vote after an earthquake omen uh Ochiba already very doubtful here can I can

[00:28:57] I also add on Ochiba the book makes very clear why she distrusts Torinaga but the show never

[00:29:03] addresses it I wonder why that is so they said where was it maybe uh it was in the

[00:29:10] prestige tv interview but the writers were saying that they actually I think they filmed

[00:29:17] some stuff more related to the book where basically it's about her um kind of being in love with Torinaga

[00:29:25] and having also he knows her secret about having had uh you know the baby is not the taiko's real

[00:29:33] son and and that's why she had to like get rid of him or something but I like the way that

[00:29:38] they just left they made it more tied to her father because that feels more visceral to us as an

[00:29:44] audience yeah I hear that I mean I think that the it's a really direct a really direct slight

[00:29:53] that she perceives that in the book that uh Torinaga saw her she thinks that Torinaga saw

[00:30:00] her having an affair the day that the air was conceived basically and she's gaslit herself

[00:30:07] into believing that that's the taiko's true son but she's like Torinaga knows that there's something

[00:30:12] up with us I think in another in the hands of other show runners or another network there would

[00:30:23] have been a lot more around with these motivations this could have been a three season television

[00:30:30] show and so it really takes an act of courage and to constrain and to remove that kind of material

[00:30:39] from being on screen and in some ways would have been too obtuse or too sort of gross

[00:30:50] to go into the whole legitimacy of the air and did she you know find some farmer who

[00:30:56] looked the same part and what what what I think it just by removing it it actually highlights it

[00:31:05] and it actually makes us want to dig more into the motivations of the characters and it's more

[00:31:11] enticing to not have that material just sort of you know obviously open and discussed about in

[00:31:19] in the show and the characters and the writing it gives it a bit more mystery and a bit more nuance

[00:31:24] yeah and you know as I'm currently working on our show guide for House of the Dragon

[00:31:30] and trying to keep track of who had affairs with who and who's who's an illegitimate child

[00:31:36] by the way I wouldn't use that term in real life but we're talking about game of the run

[00:31:39] series but anyway legitimacy in terms of the throw who has legitimate right but yeah yeah yeah

[00:31:47] yeah I recognize claim yeah so anyway it's just this Ocheba thing feels like it belongs in

[00:31:53] that universe more than this show mm-hmm yeah no I agree there's you know we've ourselves done plenty

[00:32:01] of comparing with the political machinations of game of thrones and that's it's there they're both

[00:32:08] just such rich nuanced character studies that's you know that's that's there to discuss and

[00:32:14] and that's a good basis for that but yeah this is definitely much less sensationalist

[00:32:20] this story especially the way that they've played it in this mini series and I really

[00:32:25] like that about it that it's it's still incredible memorable crazy things happen but it's all feels

[00:32:34] like it's inevitable in some way it's comes from a natural human place

[00:32:43] agree exactly for the sake of drama exactly what do we think about Ishii though being

[00:32:49] like no the miracles death was torn I guess fault he did it I wonder desperation yeah and I just wonder

[00:32:59] how much the rest of the regents are going playing along with the theater but that I mean I guess

[00:33:09] what's his name I don't have a show guy in front of my head the Kiyama

[00:33:13] um how much Kiyama says you know oh that uh that a regent could have ordered that attack

[00:33:20] I thought that was cutting pretty close to actually voice those words in the council meeting

[00:33:26] in that moment right but I did like that they said well you know it's the castle is not as

[00:33:32] safe as we were led to believe yeah but I don't think that um uh Saeki or I believe it's Edo

[00:33:41] is the other lord I don't think any of them are courageous enough and up and actually challenge

[00:33:49] Ishii though openly in this moment yeah yeah I think Ishii though just shows again he does not understand

[00:33:59] the political nuance that's required to pull off what he's trying to pull off and he really needed

[00:34:06] Ocheba for that but then and I think that that's I know that that's a change that they made for

[00:34:11] this show to make Ocheba and Smariko close childhood friends but that adds so much to the motivations

[00:34:18] here and you know just shows um you really need to understand personal relationships before

[00:34:25] you start trying to make moves around the chessboard yeah and and I think that's part of

[00:34:31] I think part of the story they were trying to tell us was Ishii though did not grow up in you know

[00:34:37] playing the game of thrones and so he didn't know how to navigate that wasn't there a line he even says

[00:34:44] during that meeting that oh right it was after the earthquake and he says we're not peasants

[00:34:49] here you know being frightened to buy everyone else is like

[00:34:53] eeeh

[00:34:56] so and again they were just playing with those subtleties where he even calls himself out there

[00:35:02] in that moment of well we're not all peasants here but yes you are a a peasant and uh yeah so

[00:35:09] I don't know what that says in a larger conversation about a meritocracy and being able to rise to

[00:35:14] levels and what a class based system how they look down at I mean they Oshino is very much

[00:35:22] looked down at by the other nobles but yet that is also his downfall because he doesn't know how to

[00:35:32] read the room and he's he's trying to climb the ladder so aggressively and had he not tried

[00:35:38] to climb the ladder so aggressively he might have ruled on the council of regents for decades

[00:35:44] like till he died and there was there were some there were some early on indications that he's

[00:35:50] he's got some good memories and you know well well appreciation of each other

[00:36:00] when he was buddies with yabashige from war and kathria and other places so there's

[00:36:07] hate bureaucratic administration we they showed that to us earlier on so that

[00:36:14] another world would have been buddies with Torin Aga and he would have been a the

[00:36:19] maybe the the hand of Torin Aga or something like that right you know are a very powerful region

[00:36:24] but instead it's this clamoring for political power and and to occupy this center space of

[00:36:35] ultimate authority and which makes me I mean I certainly don't want to be shogun I certainly

[00:36:40] don't want to be taiko so I don't know what motivates people to that to those ends

[00:36:45] but it's it ultimately is his downfall yeah right you know well I think that maybe you know

[00:36:52] Torin Aga he is he does not come out of this looking like a great guy you know he's

[00:36:59] from from his closest friends to random village people he goes on quite the killing spree to

[00:37:05] attain his goal but I do think he genuinely believes that he has the best for Japan at heart

[00:37:12] you know that this he thinks he's doing the wrong things for the right reason right I had to head

[00:37:19] can in the fact that maybe those heads on spikes were known criminals or you know people who are

[00:37:25] you know doing some no he did random he definitely did right yeah nope that was that was papa who

[00:37:31] didn't come home from church that day right but but that makes him I think that makes him a

[00:37:37] more interesting character right is that he will use fear as a as a ruling tactic he will be cruel

[00:37:43] when he thinks that it helps his ends and he's not this good guy hero savior of Japan maybe the ends

[00:37:52] you know we're great like he made this era of peace this long era where Japan went through a

[00:37:58] lot of positive changes but at what cost right and and is that cost justified then again

[00:38:05] how many lives did he save by avoiding open war and the devastation that would have rolled on for

[00:38:12] decades yeah after that then the reconstruction of that and I think that's a you know to swing

[00:38:18] back around to the larger torn aga question the interesting thing is is that real history

[00:38:26] is messy and full of compromises and half developed policies and intentions whereas in our fictional

[00:38:34] worlds we can resolve things neatly and nicely in it it's it's very simple in a lot of ways

[00:38:40] and I think this show had the courage to take on the historical new nuances of it ain't clean

[00:38:49] there are moral compromises that have been made and and you know powerful leaders have to make

[00:38:56] choices that affect the individual lives of right very small people relative to their power

[00:39:04] right well speaking of smaller people this next segment is what I like to call unhinged yabashige

[00:39:12] and sad boy black thorn yabashige is going through it yeah oh that desperate moment on the boat was

[00:39:24] it was just it was a comic relief but also just devastating at the same time just yeah

[00:39:29] humor dipped in darkness oh boy I thought it was interesting that they decided to play yabashige

[00:39:37] too is having a little you know traumatic brain injury post explosion when he's chasing the car

[00:39:44] and stuff I didn't know exactly what that was doing for me for the story it was definitely

[00:39:50] an interesting choice and I don't know if it was making him more vulnerable it was sort of

[00:39:56] because in the last episode nine they even show him towering in fear when they're

[00:40:04] holed up in the storehouse and after the explosion you know he's he's really taken down a few pegs

[00:40:12] and and maybe the jump you know being concussed and I had a a friend once who who had a concussion

[00:40:19] and for a good 12 hours that he was just trapped in this loop of always asking what

[00:40:23] time it was and having to look at a newspaper to you know do we just got a newspaper because

[00:40:28] like show him the date because we got tired of uh it was my roommate at the time and it was uh

[00:40:34] it was really weird because it was like he was literally a broken record he was just stuck in

[00:40:39] this groove and so I don't know if that's what they were going for I wasn't quite sure uh with

[00:40:46] the whole crazy man yabashige yeah I thought it was just a mental break but I have to admit

[00:40:51] that a big part of me was like black thorn just go go with him and let's do a season two yabashige

[00:40:58] takes england coming to england starting starting eddy murphy well they had it would have to get

[00:41:05] rodriguez though right they yeah absolutely I was disappointed he didn't show back up I know

[00:41:11] just give black thorn his boyfriend back yeah you know and and I love ishido coming up to

[00:41:18] yabashige and talking to him and being like I have the worst fucking vassals

[00:41:25] oh yeah he he ishido is obviously very concerned about yabashige's mathis right

[00:41:31] it's like I wonder honestly I think if if this were reversed and yabashige had been

[00:41:40] you know hired by toranaga to do something shady like this I think the toranaga would have

[00:41:45] killed him right there or had him killed in some way and I think yashido is just not as calculating

[00:41:53] as toranaga but would toranaga have him do something like kidnap someone like that because his way is

[00:42:00] more like let's do it publicly and shame them no you're right he would never have gotten to that

[00:42:04] point let's call people out yeah but you know what I mean is like toranaga would not have allowed

[00:42:09] a lucen to go sell off right yeah there were no lucens in yabashige's final moments that was a

[00:42:22] clean and convincing resolve for yabashige I really did like the opportunity for toranaga

[00:42:31] and yabashige to have a final moment together and it was a great it worked well as an exposition

[00:42:38] dump at the same time right to clear up anything but it was a beautiful way to do it and I appreciate

[00:42:46] it but I just love the fact there were there is even a small part of me that was hoping that toranaga

[00:42:53] would pardon him and it's like oh don't worry about it you know it's all good and I'll make you

[00:43:00] I'll make you a minor lord again and we'll get some we'll do some we'll have some fun again

[00:43:04] we'll get some stuff right but uh but nope and it was it was um it was it really

[00:43:11] resolved that whole storyline in such a great way it was a very satisfying storytelling moment

[00:43:19] I was glad that I was glad that yabashige was lucid and in the end uh you know that he went out

[00:43:26] very much himself um but I did also question when toranaga said to him you know I keep

[00:43:32] John Blackthorne around because he makes me laugh and I wondered if in some way Blackthorne had

[00:43:39] replaced yabashige in toranaga's well you know we we often misuse the term foil in fiction

[00:43:50] foil really is a character who is stagnant who is static well the other character grows

[00:43:56] the other character that starts in a similar place grows and interesting I didn't realize

[00:44:01] that that was the more true or literary yeah definition of it we constantly misuse it and use

[00:44:07] it as like just a contrast character uh but in whatever I don't care about the misuse but this

[00:44:13] is a true foil I would say is yabashige and Blackthorne start off very much as two people for

[00:44:18] themselves yabashige stays that way Blackthorne finally becomes something bigger right that's

[00:44:26] a really good point and that's why you get to the point that yabashige can't even see the plan like

[00:44:32] he's sitting there going lord I don't see it like what was crimson sky how did it work I you know

[00:44:37] da da da and and he he didn't he didn't have that insight he didn't grow he was stuck in his

[00:44:46] his flat dimensional thinking uh so that's a really good point that's really interesting

[00:44:50] and it's also interesting that um that Blackthorne so I guess they changed it from the book in the

[00:44:59] previous show where Blackthorne tries to commit seppuku much earlier in the story yes yes yes

[00:45:05] I'm glad that they held this for this you know this last moment where Blackthorne is yelling I was

[00:45:12] using you I was using you I'm the enemy and it's like Blackthorne still doesn't realize that

[00:45:17] Toranaga is using him and it plans to do for the rest of his life also was an enemy one of the first

[00:45:24] words that he learned yes right mm-hmm yep mm-hmm again there's little rhyming couplets from beginning

[00:45:31] to the end here it was really well done yeah that was it that was really interesting because

[00:45:38] Toranaga says if you're quite finished right would you please if you don't mind

[00:45:45] you know building me a fleet you know in your spare time after you finished

[00:45:49] sob you telling me your sob story and how you are using me it's just he's so much more powerful

[00:45:56] and bigger sighted than Blackthorne ever was or ever could be uh in that so even though Blackthorne

[00:46:03] has this tremendous amount of growth relative to him he's still just a piece in this larger

[00:46:09] puzzle yeah well we're jumping ahead a little bit we still have other things to talk about

[00:46:13] with Blackthorne how about the season the scene rather not the season the scene where Alvito is

[00:46:21] basically like look you were gonna die here but Mariko saved you and then he just weeps

[00:46:29] yeah what's the last yeah yeah I was just gonna say you know we into the season like huh is

[00:46:37] is Cosmo Jarvis gonna can you pull this I thought characterization all the way through this final

[00:46:46] episode really was quite spot on and and he has this big puppy dog dumb puppy dog energy about him

[00:46:55] but it just it played and and his his ability to to spar with Alvito but while still being

[00:47:03] changed and to see the oh is this where I die it just it balanced so perfectly

[00:47:11] the the energy that Blackthorne has got to be experiencing in that moment is this where I die

[00:47:18] this is it how many times has he been on this precipice of almost dying yeah and you know

[00:47:24] you know am I fighting have the have the the Portuguese finally got my number and nope

[00:47:31] Mariko saves him that that was an amazing turn yeah well he he did the the grand romantic gesture

[00:47:39] of volunteering to be her second and this is kind of her grand romantic gesture in return

[00:47:44] he offers her death her final gift and she offers him life oh boom there it is there it is

[00:47:53] all right well it something that was in the I want to hark back to episode nine which I

[00:47:57] didn't realize until I watched I was able to finish a second watch was that scene where

[00:48:04] after a sheet gives them the path you know to leave the way that they framed that shot

[00:48:11] and the way that they were Mariko and Blackthorne were holding hands together that was a wedding

[00:48:18] married spiritually in that moment and in that and then as you say in that whole thing of

[00:48:24] in life and in death and that's what she says to him at some point right or he even says

[00:48:29] fuck it you know we live and we die right you know that's their whole relationship is

[00:48:35] sort of mobius loop of you know of life and death and twisted in that way it's really brilliant

[00:48:43] I guess Blackthorne and Buntaro are our brother husbands now maybe they're married at the end

[00:48:50] they're just we're just gonna have a big fest with uh Rodriguez and Taro yeah

[00:48:58] it's for the boys it's for the boys dream blunt rotation all right that's a good note to take

[00:49:03] a break on all right we'll see you right after the break

[00:49:06] hey listeners Aaron here if you're watching fallout on amazon prime video then we have just

[00:49:23] the podcast for you radioactive ramblings is joined to Lorehounds network we are going to be breaking

[00:49:28] down the show episode by episode making far-fetched theories and dropping some tidbits of lore

[00:49:34] if you want to hear us ramble tune into radioactive ramblings linked in the show notes

[00:49:39] we hope to have you join us in the wasteland

[00:49:48] and we're back David I hear that you also have to make a departure my ship is sailing I gotta go

[00:49:55] uh gonna go chase down the the black ship and uh reap some riches and rewards Rodriguez

[00:50:01] is waiting for me so I'm gonna I'm gonna bail what's the name of your country where you going

[00:50:07] take me with you uh I just wanted to say Alicia and John I'm glad the three of us were finally able

[00:50:16] to podcast together yeah show I know we've been sort of uh just like Blackthorne Mariko and

[00:50:25] Tornaga we've all been sort of orbiting in our our ways but it's been really fun I'm really

[00:50:30] glad we were able to cover this and obviously we'll talk more about the the season but I just

[00:50:33] wanted to mark the moment that all three of us were on the podcast together it's a magnificent

[00:50:39] day we'll write poetry about it happened that's right anyway I will uh catch you guys on the

[00:50:46] season finale and looking forward to reading everybody's feedback so send it in because

[00:50:52] we want to hear from you but otherwise I will talk to you guys later all right see you soon

[00:50:58] all right I so now that David has left us it's time for the segment coming to a Jiro

[00:51:05] and uh we are going to Ajiro I think that's how you're supposed to say it with the with the Ajiro

[00:51:12] Yabashige is begging Blackthorne to take him to England but they of course see Erasmus is destroyed

[00:51:19] and the village is being tortured to find the culprit because Torinaga is just a swell guy

[00:51:24] and uh we kind of talked about that already but yeah you know Yabashige is brought before Torinaga

[00:51:32] accused of treason and sentenced to commit seppuku he asked for Blackthorne a second yeah interesting

[00:51:39] but he gets Torinaga his second second which you know I would think he would rather have

[00:51:46] just in terms of skill with the sword I would rather have Torinaga personally

[00:51:50] well it did take Torinaga nine hacks when he was a teenager but they don't know that that's the thing

[00:51:58] is only Hiramatsu knew that right the legend is that he did it of course right right now

[00:52:06] Omi, Omi is the one who sold out Yabashige we haven't really talked about him yet this episode

[00:52:13] I'm not surprised I'm not surprised um I think it's it's kind of heartbreaking and like he's even

[00:52:20] heartbroken himself about it at the end he's like well you you still called me your named me your

[00:52:26] heir and yeah we get to see one more Yabashige will writing one last time for the road

[00:52:35] yeah yeah so Omi it's interesting because in the book he's a lot more like ruthless he

[00:52:43] knows that Yabashige is the one in between him and higher status and he's basically like how

[00:52:50] do I get this guy to dig his own grave in this he doesn't even have to do that Yabashige just

[00:52:56] does it yeah but we see a little bit where you know he's you can tell that he was happy

[00:53:03] being you know the head of this of this province and running it basically himself and he had his

[00:53:10] mistress and you know life was good yeah he had his kiku he had his kiku he had plenty of kukus

[00:53:17] and he was having a great time yeah and life was good for him and then his uncle comes back in

[00:53:23] and messes it all up and of course most of it it's actually Torinaga's fault but I can see why

[00:53:29] he he was always kind of looking side-eyed his uncle and then he sees an opportunity for personal

[00:53:35] advancement right right well someone else is back in Ajiro Fuji of course has been taking care of

[00:53:46] Blackthorn's home that he hasn't been to seemingly in months mm-hmm her last I guess it's been

[00:53:53] it's been six months all right because she's been relieved of her service right I guess yes six months

[00:53:58] in total yeah yeah they have no translator and and like I love that they use the lack of a translator

[00:54:08] to sort of emphasize the hole that Mariko left behind right yeah I loved just the quiet moment

[00:54:17] there because it's true they didn't have anyone to translate their literal words but they also

[00:54:21] didn't need at that moment they knew that they were both feeling the same thing right and they just look

[00:54:27] at where she would be sitting and she was totally totally in the know about the way that Mariko

[00:54:35] and Blackthorn felt about each other I mean she literally lived in the same house yeah yeah

[00:54:41] three's company too yeah no I think they were really created a nice little family there for a

[00:54:51] moment you know it's only six months maximum to minus time traveling to Osaka but they that was

[00:55:00] probably for those who live that's going to be a period that they think back on forever

[00:55:04] yeah for sure what do you think about her keeping her family's ashes against custom

[00:55:12] well I feel like I was one of the people a few people express this on the discord who

[00:55:19] was kind of at first like are they being disrespectful with the way they dispose of

[00:55:24] the ashes disrespectful to Japanese customs but then it was such a beautiful moment I didn't care

[00:55:30] and actually when you when you put it this way that she's already keeping the ashes against custom

[00:55:35] it's like well why not just go a different way with it she obviously wasn't feeling good about what

[00:55:40] she thought she was supposed to do with him so let's do something that gives her peace

[00:55:47] yeah you know it's an interesting thing you know we we say are they being disrespectful to

[00:55:51] Japanese custom but Fuji is an individual and does she want to follow Japanese custom right I mean

[00:55:59] not all of us who were raised catholic stay catholic and right you know all these different aspects of

[00:56:07] making her a multi-layered character I think I think really add to the realism of the show

[00:56:13] absolutely I mean that's that's been that's what's so remarkable about the show is that every

[00:56:18] character has all these layers all these they really built out what is the three hearts of

[00:56:25] each character and show them in conflict with with each other with themselves yeah and it's

[00:56:30] it's interesting because since Fuji is a really minor character in the book and she's still pretty

[00:56:35] minor in the show but she feels so much bigger than her screen time I was gonna say it's touching

[00:56:42] Nate our resident historian he was sharing a Japanese article about the actress and that

[00:56:50] she's kind of overwhelmed by all the attention and love that her character is getting and all

[00:56:54] the memes well that's nice yeah that's so nice but yeah I mean I think that I think that I see

[00:57:02] where people are coming from on it are they disrespecting Japanese customs but I don't know

[00:57:08] I think the character moment works like you said and and I don't know if we need to have Fuji

[00:57:15] want to follow the Japanese custom like maybe no maybe that was really meaningful for her she

[00:57:20] was in a weird situation to begin with right she was recently widowed and childless and she is

[00:57:27] sent to become the consort of a newly minted foreign samurai who didn't even speak her language

[00:57:34] and then that guy has an affair with one of her buddies and it's just such a weird situation

[00:57:40] overall and and I think that her situation is so different and out of the norm for what she was

[00:57:47] raised to do that I wouldn't blame her for wanting to try something new yeah absolutely

[00:57:53] and we get to finally see her have the ability to say no and take some control of her own fate

[00:58:01] right yeah I want to talk about that too Blackthorn is he just like I need somebody I know

[00:58:09] I think so I mean yeah he's lost he's lost so much in such a short time

[00:58:14] um well especially with Monaco but yeah I can imagine he feels especially isolated now

[00:58:22] he has to bond with Buntaro of all people they're besties I want to sit down

[00:58:28] yeah bloody comedy Buntaro and Blackthorn as roommates yeah they're just going uh you know

[00:58:38] uh get horsing around the land taking care of petty crime in different villages in their province

[00:58:45] yeah and Blackthorn is just there to fling English or Portuguese curses at people and

[00:58:52] not have them know what he's saying don't translate that I love that when he said that too

[00:58:59] yeah samurai out so it was really good later yeah uh and and she does help Blackthorn Fuji helps

[00:59:09] Blackthorn set up the meeting with Torinaga right and one I wonder how how did she translate that

[00:59:15] how did she translate I thought about that she just kind of you know write a message but

[00:59:20] yeah this this is a little confusing to me is how did he prepare his statement

[00:59:24] oh how did he learn what he wanted to say yeah yeah that's like I prepared a statement

[00:59:29] how did he do that like it would make sense if Mariko was still there or if he knew that he could go to

[00:59:34] Muranji right but how did he get obviously he must have turned to Fuji but how would he

[00:59:42] how would she know what he was trying to say yeah good question little bottle maybe he drew

[00:59:46] pictograms yeah maybe maybe I I want a full scene I want like a 10 minute scene of him just miming

[00:59:56] to her what he wants to say yeah her like making facial expressions reacting to his dancing

[01:00:03] or finding out that actually he was intending to say something completely different yeah yeah

[01:00:08] yeah all right Blackthorn and Torinaga sort of the I would say the character development climax of

[01:00:18] this series because you know we we spent a lot of time the book is really the Blackthorn story

[01:00:26] the show I would say is more of the Torinaga Mariko story right and this episode kind of

[01:00:36] brought us back to the Blackthorn story to bring it full circle he kind of came back out of the background

[01:00:43] and this felt like finally the climax of his arc absolutely yeah and I think they they

[01:00:50] pace that out well and again haven't read the book but it seems like the changes that they've made

[01:00:58] seem they the way they're described to me at least I think that they were smart changes

[01:01:03] especially in this regard they definitely do the the attempted seppuku too early in the book

[01:01:11] because it makes an emotional climax happen really early and then can you just do it again at the end

[01:01:20] and have it have the same impact I think it has more of an impact if this is the first time

[01:01:24] right especially because he's been so like oh this culture that you know just kills my gardener

[01:01:30] for throwing away my rotting pheasant right right also full circle yeah I want to talk about with

[01:01:39] there's been a lot of chatter on the discord about overuse of the word seppuku okay and it seems

[01:01:47] like people are upset and I could be misunderstanding but I think people are upset that people are

[01:01:53] that that view words are using the word seppuku with what blackthorn was doing

[01:01:59] but was it I mean was it not because he held he was going to gut himself right but he didn't

[01:02:06] have he didn't even in a second I was like what are you doing dude I think to me it's not traditional

[01:02:13] seppuku right I would say he is trying to do it he's right in his limited understanding of

[01:02:20] it it is attempted seppuku because that's his that's his um that's what yeah indeed that's his

[01:02:28] what he's his goal his yeah I mean he's seen it done he's seen marco prepare and he's like

[01:02:35] I'm gonna do the same things he's gonna lay his dagger down in front of him uh and so I

[01:02:40] do think that he was trying to mimic what he saw but also the way marco was doing it it was

[01:02:47] apparently not the way that women typically did it and the character marco was based on

[01:02:53] did end her life in that way or she was killed by her servants right yeah that's that's like a whole

[01:02:59] thing too we don't have time for that kind of work but yeah I I mean I I understand the whole

[01:03:08] idea of like let's not call all suicides seppuku mm-hmm I do think that blackthorn was at least

[01:03:14] trying to yeah it was his intention play seppuku yeah and he was gonna do it I really do think if

[01:03:21] tornaga had not stopped him there he would have done it but the fact he didn't even name a second

[01:03:26] shows how this is a character who doesn't think all the steps ahead like tornaga does for instance

[01:03:33] right it's almost like when he speaks japanese does he speak japanese like can we say he's

[01:03:40] speaking japanese if he's speaking broken japanese I think so he's just doing it poorly yeah I mean

[01:03:46] I think as long as it's when it's broken japanese and it's his own thoughts than it is it reminds me

[01:03:52] of there's a lot of discussion um in the psychology community over whether animals for

[01:03:58] instance great apes are able to learn for instance sign language and um and then the

[01:04:04] question becomes are they actually signing things of out of their own thoughts or have they just learned

[01:04:12] to mimic those around them um maybe we should ask them well exactly I mean I think yeah there's

[01:04:20] there's compelling arguments to both sides for that in the animal case but in this case I think

[01:04:26] the question comes down to the same especially considering they had blackthorn they show he's

[01:04:31] gifted with european languages of course japanese is going to be completely different linguistic beast

[01:04:35] but how much does he know by the ends like for instance when in episode nine when they were

[01:04:42] in Osaka and he and yabu shigey are trying to communicate to each other how much actual

[01:04:48] understanding was there of between them and of what he was acting out in court or you know

[01:04:54] versus just mimicking to get through this experience honto honto yeah yeah I I agree with that I think

[01:05:04] that that's that's a good it's a good distinction there that you've made so another aspect to

[01:05:13] this whole scene is mirage being a secret samurai who speaks fluent portuguese and has just been

[01:05:21] like the master of everything the whole time right right which we had a glimpse of as an audience but

[01:05:28] I guess I didn't think about the fact that he might secretly speak portuguese

[01:05:32] yeah well he did he did help him a little bit right like he knew a few phrases

[01:05:37] but he was pretending to be he was pretending to be like not that great at it right right

[01:05:44] but we yeah we knew he was a samurai but we didn't know that he also had linguistic skills

[01:05:49] right so it is interesting I mean I guess obviously tornaga wanted to keep his role in

[01:05:55] his background secrets so that he could be the little spy in the village but um it's interesting

[01:06:02] that tornaga asked marco to be the translator the interpreter yeah yeah

[01:06:11] um there's also the whole scene where tornaga and black thorn are arguing and through mirage

[01:06:22] but black thorns just start speaking in I think english maybe portuguese

[01:06:28] and he's just yelling at him he's just like I'm feeding you shit I fed you shit

[01:06:33] yeah and he's mimicking it too he's miming it

[01:06:39] and he just kind of is just like I'm gonna make you understand without any kind of barrier

[01:06:44] I'm gonna look you in the eye and that felt like an important moment for him too

[01:06:50] yeah see I would I wish I knew which whether he was speaking english or portuguese in that

[01:06:55] moment because to me that communicates different things like if he's speaking english it's

[01:06:59] really just him going to his most unhinged emotional id place and if he's speaking portuguese

[01:07:05] he's still expecting you know the interpreter present to understand this and be able to repeat

[01:07:11] it back later right so that's one of the cases where I'm like it it was just a little sloppy

[01:07:16] the way that European languages were handled which is so I hear you the rest of the show

[01:07:21] to me it was few and far between I mean there I think the problem is if you

[01:07:25] introduce speaking different languages at different times then you have to address

[01:07:28] are you gonna have marco and blackthorne speak latin at certain times because that's

[01:07:32] something that happens in the books yeah I can understand dropping latin yeah yeah there's just

[01:07:38] like a lot of a lot of tricky moments I think you know are you gonna have blackthorn now speak

[01:07:43] dutch when he speaks to his crewmates yes yes I very much want to hear a cosmo jarvis speak

[01:07:49] dutch I don't think cosmo jarvis wants to hear cosmo jarvis speak that's the problem I mean

[01:07:54] but that's the thing is he is an englishman so it would he's supposed to have an accent when

[01:08:00] he speaks other languages it's not like he's supposed to sound like a native right but anyway

[01:08:05] I'll stop harping on that no fair enough and I I think the show made certain decisions at

[01:08:11] different points like I mentioned when you have father albedo talking to tornagan tornagan's

[01:08:16] like he's not worthy to speak our tongue I'm like okay they definitely just wanted this actor

[01:08:19] to be able to full act and not think about language in the scene like that's why they did that

[01:08:25] no it's true it's true and I do like the cosmo car's mojave is casting um I don't know how good he

[01:08:31] is personally with languages yeah maybe maybe they handed him a script with some portuguese in it

[01:08:37] and they were like yeah we can't do this we love you it's blackthorn but we're not make

[01:08:42] you speak portuguese yeah that's fair I don't know I I used to do I used to do a lot of singing and like

[01:08:47] choirs and jazz stuff and I I had this jazz piece I had to sing one it's called bananera

[01:08:54] and it was portuguese and I was just like why do none of the syllables look like they sound

[01:09:02] it's so different from spanish in the pronunciation it is it is I understand why like

[01:09:07] portuguese is a hard language to learn if you speak english yeah yeah and I I used to date a guy named

[01:09:12] joel and then and I'm still I'm sure the portuguese speakers are cringing but he was constantly trying

[01:09:18] to get me to say the vowel right but they have some interesting sounds yeah so blackthorn has

[01:09:25] given up his western ambitions right I would say uh which is funny because later tornagan

[01:09:32] mentions this whole idea of like oh your war is stupid your war is small unless I win right

[01:09:38] right and so tornaga I think believes blackthorns are more than he does now

[01:09:47] yeah I mean I think blackthorn is still an individualist in the end and if it's like okay

[01:09:54] here's here are your options you can go chasing glory back in you know Europe and

[01:10:01] maybe with your ties to japan or whatever but that's going to be a fraught life full of battles and

[01:10:09] this life yeah there there's going to be some battles but you're already in a comfortable

[01:10:13] position um you're already you live in a beautiful place uh you're just gonna build ships for the

[01:10:19] rest of your days basically like I can see why why leave that life and to go back to war

[01:10:27] he's got it made right like he has a great salary he's got a thief he's got you know he

[01:10:33] he has servants for everything I mean he's living a life of luxury really like in in england he probably

[01:10:38] never would have reached this level of of riches and these are this is early days in the 80 years

[01:10:44] war as well so I can imagine maybe things looked a little hopeless because this war as the name

[01:10:52] implies went on for 80 freaking years so yeah and can we just pour one out for blackthorns european

[01:10:59] family though because they are just screwed at this point I mean there I hope that he I hope that

[01:11:06] they are well enough off from his he was obviously not from the poorest of positions

[01:11:11] considering his position on the boat when they arrived so I hope they're well enough off

[01:11:16] she gets to declare herself a widow and live life on her own terms as often widows were

[01:11:22] only able to do well I'm not sure that I believe in 16 17th century public welfare

[01:11:32] I don't know if that was a thing but let's hope that the public was good to them yeah

[01:11:38] yeah I mean I am hoping that they just had enough money family money things like that

[01:11:44] and that this gives her a little more freedom to find someone who's not going to keep

[01:11:49] running away to anyone else but your family life yeah it's it's funny like he in the book

[01:11:56] he has a lot of internal monologue where he's like how am I going to go back to my smelly wife

[01:12:01] you know like I like everybody smells back there how am I going to go back there everyone's so

[01:12:06] filthy I think he even thinks he's like could I convince her to start bathing like the Japanese

[01:12:12] it's just funny all right so let's go to Yabashige's Sapa Gu and I and I noticed David likes to talk

[01:12:20] about his rhyming couplets but there was a big rhyming couplet here which is that in episode three

[01:12:25] in the opening Yabashige is writing his will and he thinks he's gonna die because Torinaga gives

[01:12:31] him this beautiful sunrise right he invites him up to see the sunrise and he's like thanks for

[01:12:35] the sunrise let's get on with it now it's sunset and he's gonna die with Torinaga

[01:12:42] right right I mean and it's funny because that was the end of the I mean that was the sunrise was at

[01:12:48] the beginning of what we see of their story together and the sunset is the close of it right

[01:12:53] right yeah that's pretty beautiful yeah I love um I love just the fact that he is most himself

[01:13:02] in this moment here too you know with his his whole his crappy poem and cockiness about it as

[01:13:07] he wrote here but also when he looks back over his shoulder at the last moment like you're not

[01:13:12] really gonna do it uh he sure does do it yeah yeah Yabashige is not making it out of there

[01:13:24] he needs to know what's coming next though he's like fine kill me but before I die can you just

[01:13:29] tell me what's coming next I would turn out good does it the only thing he denies him is a

[01:13:33] confirmation of his secret heart right right I mean I can imagine from Torinaga's perspective

[01:13:40] like he's lost pretty much anyone he can speak to openly and this is his last chance to just

[01:13:46] to gloat a little bit like I did the thing look I did the thing I can't I can't be this open

[01:13:52] about it with anyone else so why not you because I know you're not going to tell anyone yeah and

[01:13:58] and so in the book this is an internal monologue this is this is you know his his thoughts this

[01:14:03] is Torinaga's thoughts so I thought this was a really brilliant way to allow an exposition dump

[01:14:09] that made sense and uh yeah I mean great idea great idea tell it to a dying man yeah yeah absolutely

[01:14:18] and um I have in apparently so Yabashige he's based on the real life Honda Masanubu and in the real

[01:14:29] life this Masanubu Honda he basically died of alcoholism you know he just drank himself to death

[01:14:38] because of his guilt and whatever over his maneuvering do you I think that this is a more

[01:14:45] satisfying end what do you think that's kind of the alcoholism death is more tragic even sadder

[01:14:52] yeah it is it is there's actually that's interesting you say that because in the book there's an

[01:14:57] early scene where I think Muraji is massaging Yabashige what was like Yabu in the book but

[01:15:08] he feels his he feels his liver he's like oh those kidneys and the liver are shot like he's

[01:15:15] going to be dead in a few years like he could feel like alcohol sickness basically I wonder if that's

[01:15:22] you know David was asking about his break and the chasing the carp in the pond I wonder if

[01:15:27] he was just just drinking himself too hard at that moment yeah well also cirrhosis can cause

[01:15:33] you know hallucinations and whatnot right okay that makes sense yeah all right so we've got a couple

[01:15:42] more things to talk about I just want to talk about Torinaga's plan I mean we talked about the real

[01:15:47] history but was there a backup plan if Ocheba did not bail him out hmm you mean because it got to

[01:15:57] the uh because it got to the battlefield before yeah yeah like was there a backup plan well I don't

[01:16:03] think he would have ever let it get to the battlefield right but you know Torinaga clearly

[01:16:09] has a plan at the beginning of the episode before he ever gets Ocheba's letter but I think this was

[01:16:14] plan A was convince Ocheba to ally but what was plan B is my question I mean I think his maneuver

[01:16:23] with Mariko in Osaka was just to get as many people as possible to want to jump ship and be on his

[01:16:32] side because yeah they were afraid of Ishido um caging them basically above them being they were

[01:16:40] like this guy straight up sucks Ishido yeah Torinaga makes himself look like the better person also

[01:16:47] because people are upset about Mariko yeah and he knew that he was willing to sacrifice her knowing

[01:16:55] the effect that it would have on people especially I mean this this is just something that happens

[01:17:02] maybe not with his plan but the way that she delivers such a beautiful poem in front of all

[01:17:07] the nobles and you know like the day before she dies right and it's uh it's really sad and

[01:17:14] I think people are really like this is this is a young woman who should have had a long life ahead

[01:17:19] of her and now she's gone all because Ishido failed to keep a safe realm but I guess she was also

[01:17:27] quite famous so it's like in a way if there was a saintly lady Gaga who suddenly got killed you know

[01:17:34] yeah yeah uh so Torinaga absolutely wanted to be shogun the whole time right

[01:17:40] yes I think he almost admits as much to Yabushige yeah and and the whole time he's like oh I don't

[01:17:48] want to be shogun no no no liar liar kimono on fire it's honestly so I actually tried to do some

[01:17:55] research on this and I couldn't find anything but in western culture the reluctant leader

[01:18:05] the reluctant hero is such a trope you know going back as far as Moses right you know not wanting to

[01:18:13] to leave the Hebrews out of Egypt and I was trying to find if this was a similar trope in

[01:18:21] eastern cultures especially Japan but I couldn't find a single reference and I and I looked

[01:18:28] everywhere on the internet I spent like an hour looking for something I couldn't find anything

[01:18:30] so if anyone has any thoughts on that maybe I'll ask Nate next week but I'm really curious

[01:18:36] because Torinaga publicly is the reluctant leader but he's not in his secret heart

[01:18:42] and that's what makes him I think a more interesting character than we're used to

[01:18:47] absolutely yeah because this is this is a more realistic but also we learn that Torinaga

[01:18:54] understands the power of legend of stories being presented in certain ways like the beheading of his

[01:19:01] youth right right so he's got visions of an era of peace he's just taken away his

[01:19:09] shadows allies and made him lose before the first battle yeah I mean what a what a crazy

[01:19:18] what a crazy plan that worked

[01:19:23] yeah I mean it's convenient a lot of elements like that in the story are convenient but I don't

[01:19:30] mind it because it's just it's so it's like you know he's not controlling the wind but

[01:19:36] he's composing the music that he makes all the different players dance to yeah

[01:19:42] yeah he's certainly like I said he's certainly redirecting it in certain points right

[01:19:49] and he kept Blackthorn because he made him laugh but I think by the end he definitely

[01:19:53] learned from him you know that whole quote of the battle doesn't matter unless I win

[01:20:00] I mean he basically had everybody was telling him the whole time this is a hopeless battle

[01:20:05] against Ishida in the regions and he's like unless I win and he did win yeah

[01:20:11] but it's also funny because it's kind of like the the whole pheasant thing with the you know letting

[01:20:17] it rot and letting the maggots eat away and tenderize the meat that's basically was how

[01:20:24] Torenaga handled this entire situation and he was like how do I let this regency rot from within

[01:20:31] and send in little maggots like Marco not to ever call her a maggot but you know what I mean to

[01:20:36] nibble to nibble at the flesh and soften it up so that it just sloughs off itself

[01:20:41] right I sent a woman to do what an army never could right

[01:20:46] genius and the whole time I love the way the show subverted our expectations because the whole

[01:20:52] time we're like oh we're gonna use cannons and we're gonna storm Osaka and it's gonna be

[01:20:58] an amazing battle and we're thinking Crimson Skies the name of the episode I remember

[01:21:02] I listened to your podcast with David on episode eight and yeah you're expecting you guys were

[01:21:09] like oh next episode's crimson sky it's gonna be a crazy battle but it was a crazy battle yeah just

[01:21:16] not the way we expected not with armies but with Mariko and her attendance and power of the wills

[01:21:23] the way that and I don't want to relitigate the whole episode nine but the way that Anna Sawai

[01:21:31] raises her voice to a higher pitch that's so cutting it feels like a knife being driven

[01:21:36] into a shiro and yeah it was just such a good episode I think that's that's the episode of the season

[01:21:42] I think so too I agree I think that the this finale was perfect in wrapping things up in

[01:21:49] in a in a way that felt natural and appropriate and tied all the pieces together and gave a

[01:21:57] satisfying ending but it is still the day new mom yeah

[01:22:00] yeah so will Tornaga keep destroying Blackthorn ships do you think that's gonna happen

[01:22:08] because he's like maybe I'll have to destroy it again I mean I think at some point it might be handy

[01:22:14] for him to have a fleet of his own he might that might be something that he would actually

[01:22:21] like to have oh no we definitely need a fire department over here Blackthorn I'm really

[01:22:26] sorry your your third ship got burned down it's just the lightning here is crazy yeah

[01:22:34] all right so getting the ship this was a fun little way to end the episode

[01:22:40] directing everyone with the help of Muraji but I think he's he's speaking better Japanese now

[01:22:46] than he has been yeah finally yeah you brought up that don't translate that when he's cursing

[01:22:56] yeah this which I guess means that he's cursing in Portuguese you would think you'd be cursing in

[01:23:01] English yeah yeah fair enough maybe it's just like he doesn't want to switch back and forth so often

[01:23:08] right maybe I mean maybe he likes that he's like okay Muraji you and I have this special bond

[01:23:14] where you get my jokes because nobody else does um so he can't get the ship out until

[01:23:22] Bunturo joins his new bestie why is Bunturo the guy who can just pull a ship out I feel like nobody

[01:23:31] else even needed to be on the ropes right like Bunturo would have just walked up and been like yeah

[01:23:34] I got this he's he's a samurai of legend what can I say yeah I can't believe that this guy

[01:23:42] survived the season yeah I was kind of surprised by that too and I'm surprised that he landed

[01:23:48] in a relatively I mean he's been taken down so many pegs especially with that with with

[01:23:54] with Mariko and his father and everything but um he landed in a surprisingly okay place like he

[01:24:00] can just live his life uh he's got legendary status he could definitely marry again as he wants

[01:24:09] yeah well and also his son is of the Akechi line and and I think that will

[01:24:17] that will give him some good status too because that was a really high line

[01:24:21] yeah his son was completely brainwashed by the Ishido cult I wonder if he

[01:24:28] I wonder what their relationship is if anything after this

[01:24:31] I don't think that Bunturo has spent a day parenting

[01:24:37] no I don't think he I think he's probably said 10 words to that kid yeah but he's still gonna

[01:24:43] give him all of his land and titles or whatever yeah they'll talk when when he's an adult right

[01:24:48] like that's that seems to be the Bunturo style of parenting is yeah I'll talk to my kids when

[01:24:53] they're adults yeah yeah yeah um and Blackthorn of course shares one more look with Torinaga

[01:25:01] before we cut to black yeah it's really the love story between the two of them no no no no it's

[01:25:08] Rodriguez Rodriguez and Blackthorn I know where was Rodriguez as soon as when they were like oh

[01:25:14] look the ship is back it was at an episode nine I was really hoping Rodriguez is gonna be on board

[01:25:20] does he come back at the end in the book I didn't finish the book okay I'm almost done I'm almost

[01:25:26] done I did read the wiki of what happens at the end of the book because I just wanted to make sure

[01:25:31] that like I knew some of the differences but I didn't look it up until after I watched the final

[01:25:37] episode because I didn't want that spoiled for me right all right so let's talk about our

[01:25:43] favorite moments before we head out of here you want to do the first one uh sure so I mean

[01:25:49] I guess it was just uh Yabu writing his final will and then dying the way that he lived you know

[01:25:56] that that look back over the shoulder like I said in his kick-ass poem gonna get it tattooed

[01:26:04] I like that my first one was him you know Yabushige is great just Yabushige shouting

[01:26:11] teach me to dive yeah just unhinged desperation unhinged pure desperation

[01:26:19] and it's amazing that he comes back from that and then is so you know he he does his duty quote

[01:26:26] unquote he's composed in the end he goes through with it yeah he does he does he I think he he

[01:26:34] understand he's like all right I played the Game of Thrones and I lost so I die right right I mean

[01:26:41] I think he he's obviously always thinking about his legacy with that rewriting of the will all the time

[01:26:46] and he wants to go out with honor yep what was your second favorite moment um yeah it was definitely

[01:26:56] realizing that the Blackthorne flashback was not actually how his story was going to end

[01:27:01] because that was to me just kind of like gonna be the most depressing part of all

[01:27:05] yeah with his yeah those little English brats calling the people we've fallen in love with

[01:27:11] savages was like oh oh no yeah I was thinking like did he not raise his kids better I know

[01:27:20] raise their kids better yeah did he raise his kids at all or was he just in Japan oh right yeah

[01:27:26] yeah fair enough fair enough do you think he starts another family does he does he get

[01:27:30] another family in Japan or does he ever sail his family over I highly doubt that he would

[01:27:35] never sail his family over because first he would have to disinfect his wife and children

[01:27:41] just hose him down when they get there but I think in yeah I could see in the story him

[01:27:49] yeah settling down because I think it would also if he's keeping this status as a nobleman

[01:27:55] it's probably somewhat expected of him right right um what was your second mine was Blackthorne

[01:28:07] starting to just break down in tears when he learns that Mariko saved him and and just this mutual

[01:28:12] respect between him and Elvido you know the kind of this whole scene where you know he goes I didn't

[01:28:18] you know I prayed to God but not your God or my God just God which feels like a really modern

[01:28:23] sentiment and and it did take me out a little bit but I really liked that sentiment between them

[01:28:28] because it just felt really emotional yeah the moment where I got most emotional was when Torinaga

[01:28:37] was talking about Mariko's poetry you know he repeated the line about the her about the her

[01:28:44] words in the bonfire and just you know how brightly that bonfire burns because of all these

[01:28:49] words she left behind and yeah again that reminded me that this is based on a real person and the a

[01:28:56] lot of the poetry as you said was actually poetry written by Hosecawa Gracia so it that's just a

[01:29:03] beautiful thing to remember that uh this this woman did sacrifice herself in real life um but

[01:29:09] centuries later we are still talking about that sacrifice so it wasn't for nothing I suppose

[01:29:16] right yeah I mean she she had an insane influence on Japanese history right

[01:29:24] absolutely and your final favorite moment the lack of battles it's actually the absence of

[01:29:31] something that was my favorite which was that there was no big you know physical battle in

[01:29:37] this whole season right it was just verbal battles it was battles of character to character

[01:29:45] I loved it I absolutely loved it it felt real and it felt fresh right absolutely more focused on

[01:29:57] the human players rather than the machines of war definitely well as we mentioned in the intro

[01:30:06] we're going to save all our feedback for the season wrap up podcast which will be out in about a week

[01:30:12] but you can always send that feedback into shogun at the lorehounds.com or you can go to

[01:30:17] the lorehounds.com go to the contact page and you'll be able to leave us a voicemail or contact

[01:30:22] for a mentoring you could also send us a message on discord you know go into the shogun channel

[01:30:28] tag us say I want this to be feedback and we'll include that as well

[01:30:32] and Alicia you'll be back for the season wrap up is that right absolutely and in the meantime

[01:30:37] you can check out Going Live Around the same time as this is the episodes one to three breakdown of

[01:30:44] beacon 23 season two on wool shift dust nice transition so wool shift dust you're back with

[01:30:51] beacon 23 and I'm sorry about doing my impression of you saying that I know Hugh Howie

[01:30:56] like I said I should stop making not my catchphrase

[01:30:59] it made David laugh at least but uh yeah so you've got a lot going on on your feed you've got do you

[01:31:09] have some dune stuff going on too yeah well I mean it's uh the dune it's stuff is still in the work

[01:31:15] so though I have to be honest it's slightly paused because I'm prepping for this uh to launch

[01:31:20] the Star Wars canon timeline podcast right right I wasn't sure how much I was allowed to say

[01:31:25] about that yet so I was letting you do it yeah no that's going to be kicking off probably uh in the

[01:31:33] next week or so we're gonna put the first episodes live just a little bit of background information

[01:31:37] leading up to the acolyte cool and for more science fiction goodness we have our new feed

[01:31:43] radioactive ramblings with Aaron and Chase covering the fallout show on amazon are you

[01:31:49] watching fallout alisha yes I've watched the entire season now it was it was great yeah it's

[01:31:54] another one of my favorite shows of the year awesome yeah I've watched the first two episodes and it's

[01:31:59] good yeah yeah um yeah so they have podcasts out for everything so far their full season is uh is

[01:32:07] out now you can listen to it uh and I know they're going to be covering some other stuff soon but

[01:32:11] I'm not sure their concrete plans so stay posted for that yeah there was whispering seven invincible

[01:32:16] and elden rings which both turned my head a lot of stuff going on on that feed

[01:32:21] all right um rings and rituals is still going strong one podcast every two weeks covering season

[01:32:27] one of the rings of power on prime they are not just doing a standard breakdown though they are

[01:32:33] looking at it through the lens of ritual through the bigger looking talking legendarium

[01:32:39] and looking at ritual in our daily lives so you know you can you can check out a bunch

[01:32:44] of the episodes right now you may have heard a little ad for it at the beginning of this

[01:32:48] podcast if you're on the public feed and I hope you'll enjoy it because it's it's a lovely morning

[01:32:54] podcast I think it's great with a cup of coffee or tea I like to I listen to it I listen to a lot

[01:33:01] of podcasts while biking and it's just uh yeah nice to be able yeah it's a calming one so I

[01:33:08] look around I see the canals and I think about the role ritual plays in my life

[01:33:13] hmm do you ever see Rebecca's boyfriend in uh Ted lasso

[01:33:21] oh did you bike around Amsterdam yeah I I pass his boat every day okay good good good

[01:33:29] properly Howard is really going strong right now with the season of felonies and fugaizis

[01:33:35] it's a crime themed season where they are rating a bunch of movies on a scale of better

[01:33:42] worse or on par with the average Ron Howard movie which is just a fun premise and I always

[01:33:48] enjoy it but they're doing uh point break shake down tango and cash pulp fiction gross white blank

[01:33:57] and rocky hmm it's really funny I would I would recommend you check it out even if you're not

[01:34:03] watching the movies it's fun to listen well yeah it's most of those are movies that I watched

[01:34:08] a long time ago and then it's fun to get a little reminder and then some of them were

[01:34:11] ones I've never heard of which are kind of often the funniest episodes yeah because they

[01:34:16] they describe these movies in ways that you're like how is this a real movie

[01:34:23] and of course stay tuned for our coverage with properly Howard jointly on

[01:34:27] severance whenever that comes out but it seems like they wrap filming so it's

[01:34:31] going to come out sometime this year and you and I need to talk about uh about

[01:34:36] Dr. Who and Dr. Who is coming talk of Star Wars uh catch up I know yeah we got a you

[01:34:42] and I have some scheduling to do so we're going to do something on the bad batch

[01:34:46] we're going to do some coverage of Dr. Who but we got to be really careful about

[01:34:50] how much we commit to because there's a lot coming in June yeah uh on the main

[01:34:55] Lorhounds feed we are going to be covering House of the Dragon season one and then season

[01:35:00] two so we're going to do two we're going to do five podcasts each covering two episodes of season one

[01:35:07] and then that will lead right up to season two where we'll do full coverage of every single episode

[01:35:11] just like we did Shogun probably even more detailed because we'll probably do a scene by scene recap of it

[01:35:17] cool and there uh I'm working on a show guide so if you want access to that subscribe to the

[01:35:22] patreon it'll be you know it'll we offered it for Shogun too it's a character guide

[01:35:28] there will be episode guides we're working on a dragon guide and a geography guide so we got plenty of

[01:35:33] plenty of material there I mean that world is so full with Lorh there's just so much I could put in there

[01:35:40] um we also are covering the Silmarillion still every month covering Earthsea until we finish that

[01:35:49] and Silmarillion stories now rotating guest show I think Alicia you might be on on a

[01:35:53] future episode yeah absolutely and of course join us next week for our season wrap up of Shogun

[01:36:03] featuring Nate who you may recognize from the discord Nathan Ledbetter a PhD candidate and

[01:36:09] member of the East Asian studies faculty at Princeton just absolutely focused on this period

[01:36:17] he's the perfect person to talk to about this yeah he's brilliant he always has such crazy details

[01:36:24] on the on the discord so I can't wait to talk to him in person all right quick thank yous if you

[01:36:31] want to access early and ad-free episodes you can go to Supercast or Patreon and subscribe for as

[01:36:39] little as three bucks a month you can find all those links in the show notes and uh like I

[01:36:44] said you can get the show guides too for Shogun and House of the Dragon we did one for True Detective

[01:36:50] so we're going strong on those our discord server boosters who help us get a few extra features on

[01:36:58] the discord are Opus and the Machine, Narls, Aaron Kay, Tilly the Thriller, Dork of the Ninjas and

[01:37:04] do 71 thank you to all of you and our Patreon lore masters are top tier patrons uh and

[01:37:11] Supercast subscribers I gotta start saying that better uh who uh get a shout out every episode

[01:37:17] our Samaritian Mark H, Michael G, Michelle E, David W, Brian P, Nick W, SC, Peter OH, Bettina W,

[01:37:27] Adam S, Nancy M, Dube 71, Brian 8063, Frederick H, Sarah L, Gareth C, Eric F, Matthew M,

[01:37:37] Sarah M, DJ Miwa, Andra B, Kwon Yu, Dead Eye Jedi, Bob, Nathan T, Alex V, Aaron T, Sub-Zero, Aaron K,

[01:37:47] Dali V21, Mother Ship 61, Narls and Adrian. Alright thank you everyone for all your support all

[01:37:57] our patrons all our listeners uh thank you Alicia for being here and subbing for David while

[01:38:02] he's traveling thank you for having me again see you next week the Lorehounds podcast is produced

[01:38:09] and published by the Lorehounds you can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com

[01:38:15] slash contact get early and ad free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com

[01:38:21] slash the Lorehounds any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of

[01:38:26] or belong to any employers or other entities thanks for listening

[01:38:33] hey listeners if you've been listening to our show chances are you've heard the wonderful

[01:38:38] contributions of our favorite Tolkien scholar Marilyn R. Pukila. Marilyn just launched her

[01:38:43] own podcast on our network called Rings and Rituals. Join me and Dr. Sarah Brown on our

[01:38:48] journey through the Lord of the Rings, the Rings of Power, through the lens of ritual.

[01:38:52] Episodes drop every other Wednesday on the Rings and Rituals feed linked in the show notes. See you there!