Silmarillion Stories - E21 - Beren and Luthien Part 1

[00:00:01] Nicole, did you ever notice how the sign by Ace of Bass has really strange key changes? I did not, Mark. I'm a real person. Well, let me tell you about it. I'll let you talk about neuroscience gobbledygook. Yes! I thought you'd never ask. This is the Nevermind the Music Podcast. Where one psychologist... ...and one musician... ...deep dive into the songs you love. So you don't have to. And there's plenty of time to get off topic. From semi-charmed life to the way you move... ...and who could forget the crossroads. Is it THE crossroads or THE crossroads?

[00:00:29] Save it for the episode, Mark. Listen to Nevermind the Music. Wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Silmarillion Stories, where the Lorehounds your guides to Tolkien's world of Middle-earth.

[00:01:00] I'm Jon, and this is our podcast for A Beren and Luthien Part 1, the 21st portion of The Silmarillion. In this episode, we're going to be discussing the rise of the union of Elf and Man, the rise of Werewolf Sauron, and the fall of Finrod Feligen. If you want to get in on the Tolkien Talk, send an email to lotr at thelorehounds.com, visit thelorehounds.com slash contact, or head on to our Discord. And you can find links to the Discord, our Supercast, and Patreon where you can get bonus content,

[00:01:29] all in the link tree in the show notes. With me today is Lee, aka Silmarillion. Hey, thank you for being here, Lee. Thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure. Can you tell us a little bit about what you do in the Tolkienverse? Mostly, I go on very long rambles about things that interest me. I do have a tendency to go off on tangents, but mostly I try to answer questions and explain some of the lore

[00:01:57] and make it a little bit more accessible maybe to people who struggle with the books, especially things like the History of Middle-earth series, which are very, very dense, and there's a lot of information. Very cool. And can you give us, I like to ask our guests about their Tolkien origin story. Okay. The first time I was introduced to Tolkien, I was five or six years old. My dad was clearing out stuff from the attic,

[00:02:26] and in a box he found his very, very old copy of The Hobbit. And I badgered him to read it to me. And he was busy, obviously, but he agreed. He read the first page to me then, and that was it. I was just like in then. And he then read it to me as a bedtime story every night. And then within a few years, I was reading it myself.

[00:02:51] And then he found his old copy of Lord of the Rings as well and gave me that. And that was it then. I was in for life. Yeah. The first page of The Hobbit, I mean, starts off with that line Tolkien wrote on the back of his student's paper, right? Yeah. And you're like, oh, I get why he was like, oh, I have to write a whole book about this now. Yeah. In a hole in a ground, there lived a hobbit.

[00:03:18] There's so many questions in that one sentence that makes you want to know more. You want to know what is a hobbit? What kind of hole is this? Why do they live in a hole? Who is this hobbit? Right. He calms you down right away. He says, not a nasty hole. Let's all calm down. Yeah. All right. So we're talking about perhaps the main event of the Silmarillion, right? Like this is the story that people wait for. Yeah.

[00:03:45] This is, I think this is the most famous non-Lord of the Rings thing that Tolkien ever did. Mm-hmm. I remember, I think it was back in like 2016, 17, they were putting out Baron and Luthien. Mm-hmm. And the full extended version where they have multiple versions and whatnot. Christopher's. Was it his last or second to last? I think it was his second to last. He did Gondolin afterward, right? I think it was his second to last. Yeah. Then he did Gondolin. Interesting. Yeah.

[00:04:13] Which is a really interesting book and seeing how the different versions of it through the years and how it evolved as a story. But like the main crux of it was always there, the Baron and Luthien. And obviously it's so important because of the connection to Tolkien and Edith, his wife, which I think also anyone who's just a Lord of the Rings fan goes to visit his grave and they see those names.

[00:04:40] Because I've had people ask me who've gone to see his grave because they're Lord of the Rings fans and then ask me, well, what does the Baron and Luthien mean? And then I'm just like, well, let me, you're asking a story there. And then I'm more than happy to get into it. But yeah, it's such a significant one, both in universe and out of universe for Tolkien himself. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so interesting because today we see characters who pretty much succeeded

[00:05:08] everything they try to do and they, they're called derogatorily Mary Sue's, right? Yeah. Meanwhile, you have this character Luthien who really does just kind of succeed at everything she tries to do and really is, is this image of perfection. Yeah. And because I think it might be because Tolkien earnestly models her after his wife. That we kind of just don't even critique that. Right. Yeah. We just accept it. Yeah.

[00:05:38] And we love her for it. Right. Right. I think as well, she appeals a lot because she does like go the opposite to archetypes and what you expect in, she's not the damsel who needs rescuing. Right. She is the one that tends to be doing the rescuing. Right. And she is like, obviously the more powerful of the two of them, which, you know, flips the

[00:06:07] stereotype really. And I think that makes her appeal a lot more as well. Right. Especially, especially for the time when she was written. Yeah. Yeah. He's definitely ahead of his time on creating a very strong female lead in this chapter. Yeah, absolutely. I was just going to say, but yeah, I see a point about her being a Mary Sue. I'd never actually considered that before of how, like, if she was a written today, she

[00:06:36] might be perceived that way. Um, and I guess because she was written so long ago, she probably is why she probably manages to avoid those criticisms. Um, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I think people, people do get a bit hypercritical about characters now, don't they? Yeah, absolutely. They really do because often they want them to fall into the stereotypes and they don't. Mm-hmm. Um, and they object to that. Right.

[00:07:07] So this is a story, one of the three great tales, dear listener, if you are, because as you do, Lee, um, we are trying to help people through the Silmarillion for the first time, second time, third time, you know, whatever, wherever they're at. Yeah. Dear listener, if you did not know, we've alluded to it, but this is one of what are known as the three great tales and Christopher Tolkien, Tolkien's son and literary executive,

[00:07:31] he bundled this up along with two other tales, the fall of Gondolin and the children of Hurin. And he made sure that the extended version, basically almost everything you could read about them are in one volume each. And so that that's, that's how big and important this tale is. So I want to make sure people know that. And that's why we're so Lee, when I spoke to you, we decided to do two episodes on this. Yeah. But it's a very meaty chapter.

[00:07:59] Well, then I spoke to Maester Anthony, who's another guest on our podcast regularly, and I offered him other chapters and he said, can I not do Baron and Luthien? So he's, he's convinced me that I have to do a bonus episode with him to talk about the chapter again. That's fair. I can understand that. So we're going to do three episodes on this chapter, uh, where most, most episodes, most chapters get one episode. All right.

[00:08:25] I understand that it's a, it's a chapter everyone wants to talk about. I think. Absolutely. Significant one. Well, I appreciate that you're going to be here for tap for parts one and two of this coverage, which will cover the whole chapter in plot. So let's get into the actual chapter here. So I'm just going to read a plot point at a time, and then we can discuss sort of that scene.

[00:08:52] After a betrayal of a kinsman, Barahir and his people are killed by Sauron. Sauron's forces, I should say. Baron is absent, failing to save his father, but successful in recovering the ring of Feligand and routing the orcs. He heads to Doriath by way of Nan Dungordtheb to seek help. I have to tell you, knew better, knew better. When I did his, his episode on, uh, on a Valerian and its realms, he really showed me

[00:09:21] how to say Nand Dungordtheb because I was, I was a little lost on that one. Yeah, no, that's fair. So this whole, uh, betrayal of, of Barahir, do you have any thoughts on, on how Sauron is dividing men here in, in Dorth Onion? I think, and I've often pointed this out. It's like, I, I love Sauron as a character, as a villain.

[00:09:47] Um, this opening to this chapter just sums up completely how evil and calculating Sauron is. The way he, um, the way he tricks, uh, Gorlim. So the kinsman who betrays them is Gorlim and Gorlim comes back from, from the war to find his house destroyed and his wife gone, presumed dead.

[00:10:12] But he, he always holds out this hope and often goes back to check the house to see if she's there. And one day he goes back and he sees a light in the window and he sees his wife in there. Then he's taken by the forces of Sauron and he is tormented, um, but he doesn't break until he is put before Sauron himself.

[00:10:36] Um, and Sauron offers him a deal that he will restore him to his wife if he tells him. And so Gorlim at this finally breaks, tells Sauron what he wants. And then Sauron reveals that his wife is dead and, but nevertheless, he will do what he said and send him to her. And then it says, then he put him cruelly to death.

[00:11:03] And that just, wow. Sauron, it's that, that just completely like surmises the evil and the conning of Sauron and how he gets in there. And we see it so many times the way I've always said that Sauron strength is in seeing the people's weaknesses and exploiting them. Um, like as he goes to do on Numenor, he knows their weakness is the immortality, mortality thing.

[00:11:32] Um, with Celebrimbor it's, and the elves of Oregion, it's to preserve the land from fading. He sees it in people like Gorlim. He sees that Gorlim's weakness is his wife and he, he exploits it to terrible ends for Gorlim and Barahir and his people. And yeah, I think it just sets up Sauron who's extremely cruel and villainous, but cunning

[00:12:00] and clever as well. And, um, so first chapter virtually in Beren and Lúthien is really sad already. Right. Yeah. It's not quite as sad as Turin Turambar, but we were setting the groundwork. That's a whole new level. Yeah. Yeah. And then Beren then returns to his father to find already that he's too late and that his father and all his people have been slain. Yeah. So yeah.

[00:12:30] Although it's, it's the Wraith of Gorlim that tells him that his dad's in trouble, right? So he's kind of repenting in death. Yeah. I think Gorlim, it seems to be his spirit before it heads off to Mandos, I guess, comes to Beren to confess what he did and try to help what little way is left to him to help and to try and right it.

[00:12:54] But I also feel like you can't condemn Gorlim because he didn't break under Sauron's torture and it was only when he was like, Sauron went in for the thing part of, when he was at his weakest from the torment that Sauron went in and exploited him. And I find it very difficult to condemn Gorlim for breaking when he did. Most people would quite naturally have broke before that.

[00:13:24] Right. Yeah. I think, you know, following the war on terror and things like that, I think we as a society have started to look more kindly on people who have suffered torture. Yeah, absolutely. And quite rightly, it is one of the most horrific things there is. So, yeah, I don't feel like Beren particularly held hatred towards him.

[00:13:50] There's certainly nothing that I remember written in the text that he didn't curse Gorlim for his treachery or anything like that. He just went to try and get there in time to save his father and his people. Right. Yeah, you know, something that you're talking about, the uniqueness of Sauron as a villain. Sauron, I really just noticed as you're saying this, that he never lied in this whole situation. Yeah.

[00:14:16] And I think that that's something that they did portray really well in Rings of Power, is that Sauron is a deceiver, not a liar. Yes, absolutely. That was something as well that I liked in Rings of Power, because all the time that there's this thing with him, when Galadriel's believing that he's this lost king of the Southlands, it's her that puts that on him. Right. And he repeatedly tells her that he's not, but she thinks he's just being like, oh, the reluctant hero sort of thing.

[00:14:47] But the whole time, he is being honest with her that he is not this person she thinks he is. Obviously, he's lying about his name and stuff, but otherwise, he doesn't actually lie to her. Right. Right. Yeah, it's super interesting to see the way he twists words and puts imagery in front of people that just leads them into the deceit that he wishes them to believe. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:15:12] Deceit without actually lying is a hell of a talent that he has. And yeah, he uses it time and time again. Right. And this is probably one of the most anthropomorphic Saurons we get, right? This is Sauron being a character where in the Lord of the Rings, he's mostly this nebulous force. Yeah.

[00:15:39] He's like a mysterious, malevolent force that exists completely off page. And it does work in Lord of the Rings. And this is also part of why I always tell people to read Lord of the Rings, Silmarillion, Lord of the Rings again, because everything is different then. And one of the things that is different is that you as the reader, your relationship with Sauron, because in Lord of the Rings, when you're reading it the first time, he's very mysterious.

[00:16:08] You don't really know who or what he is. But then obviously, once you've read the Silmarillion, you know where he comes from. You know his history. And it puts a completely different perspective on how you see him in Lord of the Rings, which I think is very interesting. Because yeah, he's very different how we see him now, where he's very active. It's Morgoth who stays back in the tower.

[00:16:33] And it's Sauron who is like in the field, so to speak, doing things, leading the armies. Right. Right. Yeah, it's, it's, I think it's one of the hallmarks of this chapter, right? Is that we get true villain Sauron. Yep, definitely. We get to see Sauron at his, at his peak, perhaps. Certainly very different to how we see him later.

[00:17:00] One other thing I wanted to call out before we move on to the next section is there's a bounty placed on Baron as high as Fingon, who is currently High King of the Nulldor. Yeah, that is insane, really. Yeah. Considering, like, as you say, what the power that is in the Nulldor and who they are, that

[00:17:21] this lone man is being held in that same regard as the High King of the Nulldor is a testament to exactly what he has managed to do with instilling fear and dread and danger into Morgoth's forces. Right. And, and also I think it shows how much Morgoth values spite because he's like, well, this

[00:17:47] guy escaped, you know, the eradication of his people. Yeah. I am not going to suffer that. So go, go get him. Yeah. If Morgoth is definitely one for spite, we see that to an even greater extent, obviously, later with other characters. Mm-hmm. So yeah, this is kind of lying in the way. It's like, nope, he's not going to, not going to let him get away. Right.

[00:18:13] So Baron, having traveled through Nandungortheb, which we can talk about here too, he arrives in the forest of Doriath and sees Luthien, who he calls Tanuviel or Nightingale, and they fall in love in vague couple sentences. Yeah. Yeah. So his passage through Nandungortheb, Nandungortheb, I believe means the Valley of Dreadful Death, which sounds like a lovely place.

[00:18:43] It's where the kin of Ungoliant, so it's full of spiders and horror and madness walks there. And it's said to be the place where the sorcery of Sauron meets the power of Melian, which is another thing we see in this chapter. And I think is also throughout the entire Silmarillion is the kind of the parallels and them set against each other of Sauron and Melian, because obviously they're both Maya.

[00:19:12] They're both very, very powerful, but on opposing sides. And their power comes together here. And the power and its intermingling is so great that it creates horror and madness where it walks. And what Beren experienced in Nandungortheb was so horrific that he's never able to speak of it to anyone.

[00:19:38] It says he doesn't speak of it to anyone, which implies he doesn't even tell Luthien, lest the horror of it return to his mind. Because it's just so bad what is going on in there. He needs some therapy. He needs some Ed-Ein therapy. Yeah. It is very serious PTSD if he thinks about it too much. Yeah.

[00:20:05] It's pretty crazy that he, you know, they say it's not least among his deeds, right? But he can't even speak of it after it happens. Yeah. And later we know he doesn't speak to mortal man ever again after he has other experiences. So I think silence is one of his defense mechanisms for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Which, you know, if it works, it's completely valid. Mm-hmm. But yeah, he gets through that horror.

[00:20:30] He makes it through the girdle of Melian because doom allows it. There's a lot of doom that goes on in this chapter. Fate, doom. Right. The talking doom. Yeah. So he makes it through and yeah, he enters Neldoreth and he sees Luthien dancing. And it's incredibly beautifully written.

[00:20:54] The descriptions of Luthien and her singing and her dancing are incredibly beautiful. As you would expect from Tolkien. Well, he, you know, if he's imagining basing this on his wife when she danced for him in a hemlock glade, I think it was in Yorkshire. I think it was. But it just conjures this beautiful image and you just see it.

[00:21:23] And yeah, that's when they first meet. But she runs away the first time. He doesn't get too close to her the first time. Or does he reach her? But she runs. She runs anyway. And it leaves him in like desolation pretty much. You know, he shuts down because she has just been so incredibly beautiful singing this beautiful song that. Right. He almost like can't exist. Now she's gone.

[00:21:52] Yeah, I love the line. Then Baron lay upon the ground in a swoon as one slain at once by bliss and grief. And he fell into sleep as it were into an abyss of shadow waking. And waking he was cold as stone and his heart barren and forsaken. Oh my gosh. Tolkien's very dramatic sometimes. He is a little bit. Like Baron is down bad already. Yeah, he is. He is. But it does say, you know, he gets to her.

[00:22:22] And, you know, she pulls away. But she loved him right away. Yeah. So this was, it's not like this was unrequited. I think it was more the social structure of, oh, I can't love a man. Yeah. That can't happen. Yeah. And then she comes back to him. So I think she goes away. She thinks, I can't, I can't, you know, she's maybe she feels that she needs him too, as he's obviously feeling that he needs her.

[00:22:49] Because the doom again has fell upon her as well. And she goes back to him. She raises him out of his stupor. So she looked on him. Doom fell upon her. And then, beyond his hope, she returned to him. And long ago in the hidden kingdom, she laid her hand in his. And just that one line, it's such a simple line.

[00:23:17] But it, it's like, I don't know if it's just because it puts that long ago bit in it that makes it seem so much more epic or somehow. But that one line conveys that she came back and their hand, they put their hands together. And it was like, it was set from then on. Their doom was sealed. Yeah. I mean, that's that, right? This is, Tolkien loves a good union of elf and man.

[00:23:46] And it seems like he mostly loves it when it is an elf, a female elf and a male human, a male man, I should say. Yeah. We have three, possibly four instances of that happening. If you include Mithralas and Imrazor. And only one the other way around. And that one ended very prematurely. Which, that one actually predates Beren and Luthien, Aignor and Andrath.

[00:24:16] Andrath, who was actually related to Beren. She was his great auntie or something like that. But yeah, theirs ended because Aignor left because he couldn't bear to see Andrath grow old and die. But yeah, that is the one instance where the genders are reversed in it. Yeah. Something else in this section is we're kind of introduced to the power of song. Yes.

[00:24:46] And it's big in this chapter overall. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it happens a lot. There's a lot of songs of power in this. Obviously, songs are very important in Tolkien. Especially, I mean, the Ainu Lindalei. The universe being sung by the Ainu Lindalei. Mm-hmm.

[00:25:11] So song and music has a power within the world. And we get glimpses of what the power song can have in Lord of the Rings. For example, they talk about in Rivendell in the Room of Fire, where the Elven minstrels can conjure actual images with the power of their song. Right.

[00:25:40] And that's much more diminished than what they can do with song at this time. And obviously, Luthien being the daughter of Amaya is even more powerful in this. And I think, yeah, this chapter is where that is most evident. Right. Yeah, and then if I ever hear anybody skipping the Tom Bombadil songs. Yeah. Don't skip the Tom Bombadil songs. Don't skip any of the songs.

[00:26:07] I've known people who have said they skipped the songs, but then after they've read The Silmarillion and realized the significance of song and music, they always make a point to read them now. And some of them are just actually very, very beautiful poems that deserve to be read, honestly. We've lost that appreciation of poetry. Yeah, we have. Recently, I think. Yeah, it's a lot less.

[00:26:34] Poetry is just a lot less of a thing these days, it seems to be, which is very sad, honestly. I love a good poem. Yeah. Yeah. And Tolkien, I can't recall, was that, did he want to be a poet before he wanted to be a novelist? I think there was something in his biography about that. I can't recall. Okay. That's not something I'm familiar with, but that is quite interesting. I didn't know that. I could be making this up.

[00:27:04] It wouldn't surprise me. I mean, it's a way of using language, isn't it? And obviously, language was where his heart lay. Like, these stories only exist because he made up those languages. Right. It wouldn't surprise me. So, anything else on their meeting before we head to Thingol? I just wanted to point out this line is that it's almost like they know already, Beren and

[00:27:32] Luthien, that they're going to be caught. So, it says, Luthien was, in his fate, Luthien was caught, and being immortal, she shed in his mortality, and being free, received his chain, and her anguish was greater than any other of the elder Leah has known. And again, just very, very powerful, and how there's this element of tragedy in their story,

[00:28:01] and it's showing through already that for all the love that there is, there will also be this pain, like, received his chain, and her anguish, these words are very emotive. And yeah, that there is, well, I think, as Arwen says it many millennia later, both the sweet and the bitter. And it's very much the case with their relationship, I think. Yeah.

[00:28:31] Yeah, this is, I think, that ends up being part of every elf-man relationship in Tolkien, is this bittersweet, okay, we are going to be in love forever, but that forever is going to be much shorter than I expected as an elf. Yeah, and then it comes with pain from elsewhere, so you see it very strongly in the tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

[00:28:59] And when Elrond realizes that Aragorn is in love with Arwen, and he tells Aragorn that for either him or Aragorn, there is going to be pain beyond the ending of the world, because one or other of them is going to have to lose Arwen forever. And it's going to break their heart. So it's not even just the people involved.

[00:29:26] And then Arwen's grief that she would have of being separated from her family, never getting to say goodbye properly to her mother. Yeah, so it's very much sweet and the bitter. She gets her life with Aragorn, her children, Beren and Lúthien get their time together. And there's always a but with these stories. Yeah.

[00:29:55] You know, I'm thinking of, we're about to talk about what Thingol asks of Beren, but just to bring in what Elrond asks of Aragorn. It's so different because Elrond says, Aragorn, you need to do something for yourself and for the world. Yeah. And Thingol says, you need to do something for me. Yeah.

[00:30:19] And I think Thingol's task is not even so much about him wanting a Silmaril. He wants a Silmaril, but he knows it's very, very, very unlikely. I think his task is just more his way of getting rid of Beren without going back on his word to Lúthien. Right.

[00:30:44] Because when Lúthien makes him promise to her that he won't harm Beren, so the only way he can get around it is to essentially send him on a suicide mission. Right. Yeah, the oaths are really in full force in the chapter. And what's interesting is usually we hear about the Oath of Feanor, and that shows up here too. But this is a chapter where other oaths start to come to fruition,

[00:31:12] and some for good, some for ill. Yeah, very much so. So let me read this quick synopsis of this section, and then we'll talk about it. Deren tattles on the couple to Thingol, who immediately goes into elvish supremacy mode. When Thingol meets Beren, he says he will only allow Lúthien to marry him if Beren brings him a Silmaril. Beren agrees and sets off on his quest. And I should say Beren agrees by saying, next time we meet, I will hold a Silmaril in my hand. Yeah, that's very significant.

[00:31:41] We'll be right back with more Silmarilian stories. I think Beren, when Thingol gives him to this,

[00:32:11] essentially as the bride price for Lúthien. In this story, Beren has two of my favorite put-downs ever to Thingol. So Thingol tells him that the price is a Silmaril, and Beren says, but Beren laughed. For little price, he said, do elven kings sell their daughters? Yeah, yeah. Burn. Yeah, I love that line. Then he has another one later on that obviously we'll get to,

[00:32:39] but he has some sass in him, Beren. Especially talking to someone like Thingol, who is a very intimidating figure. He's the tallest elf that ever lived. He is Kalaquendi, technically, because he did see the trees. He's got essentially an angel of a wife stood next to him. And yet Beren somehow finds the courage to speak like that to him. Yeah, yeah.

[00:33:08] I mean, Beren certainly, I mean, I guess he's already fought alone against orcs in Dorthonian. He's gone through Nand and Gortheb and seen untold horrors. And he's like, you know what? Lúthien has given me life where I was in basically a living death. Mm-hmm. And I'm just going to do anything to get with her. I feel like both Lúthien and possibly even Melian

[00:33:37] actually help him here as well, because it says at first when they approach the throne and Thingol demands to know who he is, it says, but Beren being filled with dread for the splendor of Menegroth and the majesty of Thingol was very great, answered nothing. And then a bit later it says, then Beren looking up beheld the eyes of Lúthien and his glance went also to the face of Melian and it seemed to him that words were put into his mouth.

[00:34:03] Fear left him and the pride of the eldest house of men returned to him. So it's almost like, because Melian, Melian warns Thingol of a lot of things and Thingol doesn't listen to her. And the Beren and Lúthien situation is one of them. So I feel like Melian kind of knows that it's almost like a greater power is at work here that is far beyond Thingol. And it's just because it says that Beren

[00:34:33] looks into the face of Melian and then it seemed that words were put into his mouth, like she's helping him as well as Lúthien is helping him because she knows that something big is happening here. Yeah. And I think that, I read that actually, that's interesting. That's an interesting read that it's Melian helping because I read that as the hand of Eru a little bit. That's something that we see from time to time in the Silmarillion. They say this person got basically a vibe.

[00:35:03] They had a feeling that this was going to happen over here or that danger was coming or that this was a good or bad thing. Yeah. And to me, those are the little nudges of Eru. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It could be that, obviously Melian as one of the Ainu who existed with Iluvatar before the world was made, of everyone there, she is going to understand when there's an influence from him more than any of the others. Mm-hmm.

[00:35:33] Which is why I say, I think when she knows something big is happening here, that there is a power beyond Thingol. And I think she says that to Thingol, a word to that effect at some point as well. Yeah, earlier when, well, she says it a couple places. Mm-hmm. When he first learns, when Thingol first learns about the Silmarils, she's like, this is bigger than you. Yeah. And then now here, she says, you know, for good or ill, whether Baron succeeds or fails,

[00:36:03] you are entwined in this whole thing now. Yeah. Because you put this oath upon him. Yeah. So, as her nature, as one of the Ainur, I feel like she would have more of an insight into, again, to use the word, doom, and these things that are, seem to be more to do with the will of Ilúvatar than anything. Right. Well, we get, we get the quest. That's, that is the, uh,

[00:36:32] everyone's going on a quest now. Baron then goes to Nargothran to recruit Finrod Feligan, who swore an oath to Barahir years ago, one more oath, of course, and gave his ring as proof. Finrod agrees to honor his, his oath, and assembles a team disguised as orcs. Sauron sees through the disguises and has a battle of song with Finrod, in which Sauron is ultimately victorious. Sauron attacks with his werewolves, and though Finrod slew,

[00:37:01] slays the one coming from Baron, he is mortally wounded. Baron is captured. Yeah, a lot happens here. Yeah, yeah. Can we, can we talk first, I should have spelled this up more. Can we talk first about, sort of, Keligorm and Curufin, and their nonsense when Finrod wants to go? Oh yeah, those two. Um, the worst of the sons of Feanor. Yeah. They're pretty bad.

[00:37:30] They're pretty bad. So, they're, they essentially decide that they want to, um, stage a coup, basically. Um, and they do these great speeches that essentially terrify the elves of Norgothrond. Um, it says that they don't, they don't, um,

[00:37:59] go openly to battle anymore because they're just, they're just terrified of what, I think that one's Curufin who says that, um, and it also means that only ten people go, agree to go with Finrod and Beren to help. So, I think Finrod, Finrod knows already that he isn't going to survive this quest. He says a long, that's right. He says a long time

[00:38:28] before to Galadriel, his sister, um, it's like, it's part of the reason why he, he didn't marry or anything. he knows that he is gonna die, basically. And when Beren comes with that ring and puts before him this quest that he's got, Finrod's, Finrod's like, oh, damn, here we go, man, he, he knows, um, but obviously it makes it even more certain the fact that

[00:38:57] only ten companions agree to go with him, um, because of the Sons of Feanor and what they're up to in Noragothrond, um, which until then it says that they, Finrod says that they've been nothing but, um, friends to him, um, and helpful, but the, because of Silmaril's involved, it, it, it kind of activates the oath almost,

[00:39:28] uh, Finrod explains this to Beren. Um, yeah, it's, it's really sad because he, he throws down his crown, right? He basically says this oath is bigger than my office. He throws down his crown and says, look, I'm going to go either way, but are you going to make me go as a beggar when I've been your leader this long? And it's really sad that only ten people go forth. Yeah, but the way that, um, the one of them, the only named one of the ten

[00:39:57] companions, Edrahil, it says he stooped, stooping, lifted the crown and asked that it be given to a steward until Felagun's return. For you remain my king and theirs, he said, whatever betide. And that seems to give, uh, Finrod a little bit of strength and he gives the crown to, um, Orodreth, who in, in this published version is his brother rather than his nephew. um, you get that all gets very confusing.

[00:40:28] Um, but yeah, it is very sad because Finrod as well, he, he's always been the most beloved of the princes of the Noldor and his people do, do love him, but the words of Kelagum and Kurofin, um, and it, the text likens him, likens those words to the word that Feanor spoke that, um, like got the, um, sorry, got the Noldor into the mindset of the rebellion and leaving

[00:40:58] Arman. Um, obviously Kurofin is basically mini version of Feanor. So, I suppose it's not surprising that he has a similar power with words. Right. Right. Yeah, uh, the Oath of Feanor triggers, the Oath of Finrod triggers, and they don't go very nicely together. No. Um, you see why later Elrond is like, do not go swearing oaths. Yes.

[00:41:28] Do not do this. He's, he's really anti-Oath later. I, I love that part in Lord of the Rings and I, I, I did a video on it a couple of years ago because I saw a lot of like, you know, motivational poster type things with faithless is he who says farewell when the road darkens written on them. And that's only half the quote. of course, because the second part is, um, I will not ask him to walk in darkness who has not seen

[00:41:58] the nightfall, which is Elrond essentially saying I won't make someone promise to do something when they don't really understand what that's going to entail. Um, and it just shows Elrond's wisdom and also his experience because he, like, the, the oath of Feanor had a very, very direct influence on his life as well. He, he understands more than most

[00:42:27] at that time the power of oaths. Um, and yeah, just his wisdom and his compassion in, you know, saying don't make an oath, um, that you don't know that you can fulfill. And also, also that it's like, if you can't fulfill it, it's all right. Like, we understand. Um, I, I love that about, I love that about Elrond. Yeah. I mean, one of the last few Noldor left in Middle Earth and he's like, hey, I'm going to make you know the lesson

[00:42:56] that I learned in the first stage. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Uh, so can we talk about Sauron's, you know, his, his whole battle of song with Finrod? Yeah, this is just incredible. Um, it's, so it has part of the poem from the Lay of Lathian and, uh, so Finrod, Finrod puts up a very good fight against Sauron.

[00:43:26] Um, considering, you know, Sauron is a Maya, Finrod put up an incredible fight against him and, and he does this by, in his song, he taught, he says he sings about, um, a song of staying, resisting, trust on broken, freedom, escape, all these like, good, positive words, snares eluded, broken traps, he sings about, um, Elveness,

[00:43:56] the land of the elves, um, and he puts all his power and all himself into his song, and he does very well, but, in the end, Sauron is a Maya, and when Sauron retorts with his own song, it's, it's too much for Finrod, and then that last line of the poem, and Finrod fell before the throne, is like a gut punch, because it's just,

[00:44:26] mm, he tried, he tried so hard, um, but he, he just wasn't enough to overcome the power of Sauron. You know, this chapter and last chapter both have an elf going toe-to-toe with an Ainu. Yes. And, and Fin, they both do damage, like, they both hold their own, but it's made very clear they are outclassed. Yes. There is, there really is no

[00:44:56] feasible way that, no matter being Kala Kwendi, no matter being the House of Finwe, they are not going to outpower an Ainu, and, um, just to go back to the previous chapter of, Fingolfin knew that, I think. There was no way he was going to even to be able to take on Mordogoth, even in Mordogoth's relatively weakened form, um, and he, he did it because he was filled with rage and despair,

[00:45:26] like, he thought his people were done. Um, and then, yeah, Finrod, Finrod knows as well, it's like, he knows as soon as Beren turned up that he's gonna die, um, but he still, he still gives it a good shot, and, um, and he saves Beren in the process, right? I mean, I know he, he, it's not in the song, but, uh, in, in a minute when he does the werewolves. Yeah. So, um, after Sauron has beat Finrod in the,

[00:45:56] the epic rap battle, um, Sauron, Sauron strips their disguises from them because this is another thing of shows Finrod's power is that he had basically made an illusion over them so that they looked like orcs, and that's how they managed to get all the way to Tolingauroth, um, without being spotted or waylaid, um, but then it was suspicion because these orcs just seemed to be passing by the isle and not reporting in

[00:46:26] their deeds that made Sauron suspicious. He strips from their disguise, um, and he sees that it's this group of elves and this one man, but he's the man, the human, is the one that he's least interested in. It's, it's Finrod who he focuses on because he realizes that Fingon, sorry, not Fingon, Finrod is, um, an elven prince. So he imprisons them into a deep,

[00:46:55] dark pit and he sends them, he kills them one by one by sending a werewolf to them and, yeah, one by one, they are devoured by werewolves in front of their companions and, again, it's Sauron being absolutely horrific. Right. Um, but the ten, the ten, again, stayed fast and did not portray their lord. Um, but, yeah,

[00:47:25] it's, it's, again, it's terrifying and the fact that Sauron invented werewolves is just something that always sticks with me as well. And vampires, apparently, same chapter. Yeah. He becomes a vampire. He becomes a vampire, but he literally creates werewolves by pulling in evil spirits and, like, forcing them into the bodies of wolves, um, which is quite metal, honestly. Yeah. Um, yeah,

[00:47:55] that's, that's like the whole premise of a different novel. Yeah. And it surprises people a lot, some to learn that there are vampires and werewolves in Tolkien. I know. vampires don't exist outside this one chapter. Um, that's true. That's true. But, yep, they are there. But, yeah, so, it's also, um, I find it really sad that, and it says it in the text as well with Finrod dies. So, the other

[00:48:24] ten companions have gone, the werewolf comes for a bear end because, as I say, they're leaving Finrod to last because Sauron assumes he's the important one here. Um, when the werewolf comes for a bear end, Finrod jumps at it and he fights it and just using his bare hands and his teeth, he kills the beast but is himself killed. And it's

[00:48:54] quite heartbreaking because where they are imprisoned, Tolingauroth, started out as Tol Sirian and Minas Tirith and it was built by Finrod himself. It was Finrod's isle that he lived in and ruled until he went and founded Norgothrond. And so, he dies in the shadow of his own tower that he himself had built but which had been transformed into this place of horror by Sauron. and it just adds

[00:49:24] an extra layer of tragedy to it as if there wasn't enough already. Yeah. And something that, first of all, yes, and, you know, having Minas Morgul pop up later, you know, you see echoes of the same thing, right? Is turning something that was once good and once a beacon of the light into something dark. Yep. Sauron loves that because he loves to rub it in people's faces basically. He does. He very much does. But something else that stuck out to me

[00:49:53] here is, you know, when I'm reading this, I'm like, why is he sacrificing himself for Baron? Like how Baron can't hold his own against him and he'll just, he's just delaying Baron's death a second. And then I go, well, no, because Sauron, his whole goal here is to figure out why they're here. Yeah. And he thinks, okay, this guy is a prince. He's my most likely chance to figure this out. So he goes to kill the last person before Finrod and then Finrod sacrifices himself. Now Baron is the last man standing. That's his last chance

[00:50:23] to figure out the motivation behind this attack to see if another one's coming. So he really does save, not just delay, but save Baron. Yeah, he does. That werewolf is going to have Baron if Finrod doesn't do what he does. Right. Right. So Luthien senses a disturbance in the force and leaves Doriath to save Baron. And it's something I didn't write in here, but I wanted to mention is Melian is the one who tells her exactly where he is.

[00:50:53] Yeah, I, I find that very interesting again as well. So yeah, Luthien feels something. and so I imagine that she goes to Melian and tells her like, I felt something. And so Melian, who obviously again being a Maya, knows what's happened and tells her. So again, I think it's Melian must know again what is, you know, what's at foot here, that something

[00:51:23] a lot bigger than all of them is in play. Um, and she obviously doesn't agree with Thingol about keeping it from Luthien. Right. And Luthien knows that, and that's why she went to her mom and not her dad. Yeah, and I think it's interesting that Melian clearly loved Thingol, but she did still consider herself a Maya above all else, I think. Yeah, and she wasn't gonna interfere with

[00:51:53] what she perceived is part of Aru's plan. Right. And then on the road, Luthien meets two sons of Feanor, Caligorm and Curafin, and is captured by them and brought to Nargothran. There she allies with their hound Huan, who was a hound of the Valar. Together, they escape and attempt to save Beren. Yeah, so it's Caligorm and Curafin are at it again. They're really busy this chapter. They are.

[00:52:23] Up to a lot of mischief. And Luthien learns who they are and realizes that they are Noldurin princes, enemies of Morgoth. And she thinks, right, I've got some help here. These are friends. So she reveals who she is because she's escaped from her treehouse prison that Thingol has had her locked in. And she goes out and she casts off

[00:52:53] her disguise, reveals herself to them, and they take her to Norgothrond under the premise of helping her, pretending that they don't know anything about this Beren person. But already, I think the plan is being formed because it says, so great was her sudden beauty revealed beneath the sun that Caligorm became enamored of her. But he spoke to her fair and promised that she would find help

[00:53:23] in her need. So they lied to her, they take her to Norgothrond and imprison her. And then their plan, Caligorm and Curofin's plan of not just usurping Norgothrond, but in order to get the power of Doriath under their control as well, their plan is for Caligorm to marry Luthien. And these people are super

[00:53:53] cranky about Doriath, right? Because this is, Thingol is the one who said, you can't speak your language, you can't come to my realm if you're a son of Feanor. He's really tried to impose his will upon the Noldor in a way that they see as insulting. Yeah, absolutely. So there is no love lost between the Noldor and Thingol. He's still alright with the house of Fennarfin because they're his family, but everybody else, and especially the sons of Feanor.

[00:54:23] So it's like, for Thingol, there probably isn't a worse person other than a human who could want to marry his daughter. Yeah, what do you think? You put those two in front of him, who does he pick? Yeah, right? But it's also such a dark aspect behind this because of what marriage is to elves. It's explained in Laws and Customs of

[00:54:53] the Eldar that marriage and sex are the same thing, that one is the other. So it's even worse than just forcing her to marry him. It's the implication there that just pushes Kelloghom and Kaurufin completely beyond redemption, for me, anyway. It's, yeah, it's just as if what they'd done

[00:55:23] wasn't too much already. That was it. But yeah, they think that, because their plan is, so they are still kind of being driven by the oath here because they know that as they currently are, they can't launch an assault on Morgoth, they can't get the Silmarils. So their plan is to get the power of Norgothron and Doriath under their control and then use the combined might of those two kingdoms,

[00:55:51] which you see the sense in it, but the lengths they have to go to to try to achieve this are so horrendous. Yeah. Plus, you know, they don't want Doriath to get them, they don't want Thingol to get it because they've already gotten in trouble once for kinslaying, twice for kinslaying, and they don't want to do it again. I do think that they in a way regret it.

[00:56:22] Yeah, I do too. and, um, Kellegrum and Korofin, and Kellegrum particularly, again, they make me sad to the effect that the oath has on them because I think Kellegrum was once, like, very good friends with Oromei, the valer, to the point that Oromei gifted him Juan. and I think that Kellegrum must have been a good person then in order for Oromei to have done that and for Juan to have happily

[00:56:52] gone with him and happily followed him into exile against the wishes of the valard. um, and the oath, the oath has corrupted him that he's ended up at this point. um, so the sons of Feanor are victims of the oath as well. Right. In his dying words, he reaffirms it, right? Feanor says, you know, you gotta still follow my oath. Yeah, and that is something that, so I love

[00:57:21] Feanor as a character, and I defend certain things about him, but the things, obviously, I don't defend the kinslaying, but one of his greatest crimes to me is when he is dying, he perceives that it's all in vain, that they will never, ever be able to get the Silmarils back from Mordogon, Mordogon, and instead of relaying that to his sons and saying, you know, relinquish, give up the oath while there's still time and just be safe,

[00:57:52] instead he doubles down on it, he makes them double down on doing it and just condemns them even further, like they are absolutely doomed now, and he knows that because he's seen that it's never going to happen, so why are you dooming your sons like this? I mean, if I'm going to defend Feanor, which is a sentence I didn't think I was going to say today, it's very clear from Mandos that this oath, whether they

[00:58:22] want to or not, is going forward. They have to follow it. This is just going to be their fate. I feel like at that point, there may have still been some leniency and mercy in the Valar. If at that point they had given up and said, we were wrong, we shouldn't have done this, we've done bad things. Do you think it's more Mandos predicting the way that they hold fast to the oath rather than dooming them to it? I think so, yeah. I don't think

[00:58:51] it's so much Mandos placing a curse on them as it is him just basically telling them what is going to happen with continuing down the road that they're on. Right. He's having a that's so Raven vision. He's not controlling the future. Yeah, because I think that would just be malicious to actually place this curse on them and make all this terrible stuff happen to them

[00:59:20] because they went against them. It's beyond malicious. It's like Morgoth level malicious. you're right. You're right. I like that. I like what you're saying here, which is, you know, Mandos is being an observer rather than a mover. Yeah, he's warning them that what they're heading into. And so, yeah, I think even at that point they could have potentially turned

[00:59:50] back from it and been granted, you know, mercy, not with completely without penance because the kinslayer and everything still happened. But I think at that point they still had a chance, but Feanor makes sure that doesn't happen. Right. So let's go to the last little section before we're going to stop and then we'll come back for part two later. As Luthien and Huan arrive, Sauron sends his werewolves,

[01:00:20] even Dragluin, the lord of werewolves. Huan defeats them all. So Sauron transforms into a werewolf himself and joins the fight. Huan wins and Sauron flees, allowing Luthien to rescue Baron. And I yada yada through that last part because it's actually a really cool passage. Yeah, this is one where we see the true power of Luthien as well and what she is capable of. But it's a very interesting one to

[01:00:50] see, again, this side of Sauron. And I think a thing with Sauron is that what is often his downfall is his pride. And I think that's on show here because there's this prophecy about Huan that none but the greatest werewolf that ever lived will defeat Huan. And Sauron seeing that Huan's just like battered all his werewolves away. He's even defeated Draugluin, like the

[01:01:19] lord of werewolves. So Sauron just thinks, hmm, greatest werewolf that will ever live. That's definitely got to be me. And so turns into a werewolf and goes to fight Huan. And I feel like at that point he's pretty confident that he's going to win. Right. Yeah. And he doesn't. And it's a massive blow to his pride. And especially what Luthien, you know, the choice Luthien gives him afterwards.

[01:01:50] Which is, so yeah, he has the fight with Huan. Luthien does help a little bit. She gives Huan the edge by casting her cloak over Sauron. So he goes drowsy for a moment and missteps and that gives Huan the opening. And he gets Sauron by the neck. And Sauron then changes through a few different forms. He goes from werewolf to serpent to monster and then it says back to his own accustomed form,

[01:02:19] which I think we can say is, you know, his, I was going to say humanoid, but it's probably more elphanoid, like elven form. And Huan's got him by the throat. And Luthien then gives him the choice of either relinquish the isle to her or she will, um, that he should be stripped of his raiment of flesh and his ghost be sent quaking

[01:02:49] back to Morgoth. There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn pierced by his eyes unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower. So Luthien shows absolutely no fear here talking to Sauron. Um, and she makes these demands of him. She gives him orders and Sauron, despite, you know, his, his pride is taking a blow, but his

[01:03:19] pride is still great. So instead of he, he yields himself and he yields the island to Luthien, um, so Huan releases him. He takes the form of a vampire, um, great as a dark cloud across the moon. And he fled dripping blood from his throat upon the trees and came to Tauron U Fuin and dwelt there filling it with horror. and that's like, again, he sounds horrific,

[01:03:49] but when I read that again last night, I actually laughed at filling it with horror because all I could actually picture was Sauron just sort of like sitting there being really annoyed. and he went to spirit Halloween to get to blow off some steam. Yeah. So he's sitting there in his horrors or like his, his anger and his bitterness. He's a very sore loser. So he just sits there and like broods very angrily in Tauron U

[01:04:19] Fuin about losing. Yeah. And, and it's really interesting to see that even though he is prideful, he fears Morgoth more than, more than he fears losing face. Yeah. Yeah. Which again is interesting because, you know, he's Morgoth's ally. So the fact that he, even Sauron, fears his supposed ally, like I am, it makes me think that even Sauron has not

[01:04:49] escaped the cruelty of Morgoth at times. Right. Scary dude, Morgoth. Let's not mess with him. Yep. Good thing he's in the void now. Yeah, thankfully. Till Dagor Dagorath, at least. You have any other thoughts on this section or this chapter half in general? Um, I also wanted to talk about Dairon. Oh, yeah. The minstrel who is

[01:05:18] also in love with Luthien, um, but seems to have this kind of, if I can't have you no one will mentality about her. Yeah, because he, he sees her and Beren together in the woods of, of Doria and he's the one who goes and, um, tells Thingol about them, um, which leads to the quest happening because, basically because Dairon is,

[01:05:48] is jealous. Right. And Dairon is said to be the greatest minstrel that ever lived, uh, even more than Maglor. Um, but I also, I can't remember who it was, but someone else said this to me and it makes sense, but that Dairon was the best minstrel because he had Luthien has his inspiration because when it's talking about how great a minstrel Dairon is, it says about how

[01:06:18] Dairon is, like, putting Luthien into his work. Um, and so even the power of Luthien is that that it can inspire someone else to be, like, the greatest ever. Mm. Um, and you also have the whole all that you do in Evil I Will Turn to Good, right? and even though he, out of jealousy and envy, he reports this whole union to Thingol,

[01:06:49] that still leads to a quest that becomes good in the end. Yeah, it's like, it's another one of those recurring things is that pretty much every single little event that happens in the Silmarillion had to happen exactly as it did for A.R.N. deal to end upon that ship going to Valinor with the Silmarillion which was the only way that Morgoth was ever going to be defeated. So if Dairon hadn't been, had this

[01:07:18] jealousy and reported to Thingol then this wouldn't have happened. Right. And it's even things like with Maiglin, if Maiglin hadn't betrayed Gondolin, Gondolin wouldn't have fallen and the War of Wrath wouldn't have happened because A.R.N. deal wouldn't have gone to Valinor seeking help. So even the bad stuff all has to happen exactly as it does for Morgoth to be overthrown. Yeah, and it really does

[01:07:48] go back to Tolkien's worldview, right? That yes, there is suffering, but it's all going somewhere good. Mm-hmm. Yeah, very much so. I think that's a good place to put it, really. Yeah, it's a good taste. Well, Lee, thank you for talking about the first half of this chapter with me. I know you agreed to do both. You still want to do it? Yeah, absolutely. I'm enjoying it. All right, great. So we will return

[01:08:19] next month this will come out to do part two of Baron and Luthien, and then the following month we'll have Maester Anthony on to talk about the chapter as a whole and his thoughts on it. Lee, where can people find you in the meantime? I am on TikTok, I am on threads, and I am on Instagram as Silmarillion. All right, and we'll put that in the show notes as well so that people have spelling and whatnot and people have

[01:08:49] ease of access. Excellent. Thanks again for joining me. Thank you for having me. See you later. I had a great time talking to Lee, and I hope you'll go to the link tree in the show notes and check out more of our content. I'm not sure what's going to be happening on the Lorehounds network at the point that this comes up because I'm recording it so far in advance, but please go check out all our affiliates, Radioactive Ramblings, Nevermind the Music, We'll Shift Dust, the Star Wars Canada Timeline podcast, Rings and Rituals. They all need your love.

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