Sinners (2025) – The best vampire movie ever?

[00:00:01] Hey Mark, I was listening to Paramore the other day and it really made me think about the amygdala and the limbic system. You just made those words up, didn't you? What, Paramore? We're the Nevermind the Music podcast, where one musician and one psychologist talk songwriting and the mind, one song at a time. We'll hear everything from Green Day and OutKast to Stevie Wonder and Dua Lipa. And we mostly try to stay on topic. Except for when we don't want to. Nevermind the Music, wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:00:27] With the gift of making music so true, it can conjure spirits from the past and the future.

[00:01:01] This gift can bring fame and fortune, but it also can pierce the veil between life and death. Listen here, this ain't no house party. Welcome to The Lorehounds, where we are all sinners. I'm Alicia.

[00:01:31] I'm Anthony. I would describe myself as vampire curious. And I'm Jean. And we're here to talk about the new Ryan Coogler instant classic vampire epic black music moment cinematic extravaganza. That, I'm not going to say almost, makes me forget that we still don't have a new Blade movie yet. Yeah.

[00:01:55] So, we're going to start with a spoiler-free hot take section where we talk a little bit about vampire movies in general and our feelings about this without getting into the plot points. But just to set it up, the official tagline is, Trying to leave their troubled lives behind. Twin brothers return to their Mississippi hometown to start again, only to discover that an even greater evil is waiting to welcome them back.

[00:02:20] And I called it a violent, sexy, haute cinema bluesicle set in 1932 in the Mississippi Delta. Yeah. So, Jean, I feel like for obvious reasons we need to hear from you first on this one. What did you think about Sinners? Spoiler free. This was awesome. This was great cinema. This was a great film. Great story. Great acting. Great music. Great score.

[00:02:49] All the superlaratives that you can possibly give to someone, I give to Kugler because this was absolutely wonderful. Yeah. And shout out to Michael B. Jordan. Amazing. Because there were times that I had to, you know, like catch myself. Like, oh, this is like the same person. You know what I mean? Like, oh, it's actually the same guy. You know? So, this was so well done.

[00:03:19] I have nothing bad to say about this film. At all. And Anthony, you actually, you saw it most recently, I think. And you reached out, you're like, yeah, this is a film I want to talk about. So, what do you think? Yeah. I think, here's my hot take. I think, like, I teach religious studies. I do not specialize in American religion.

[00:03:44] But I could see hundreds of religious studies professors putting together an entire class around this movie. Well, you could do an entire semester on the various, you know, interactions between culture, you know, the window into American society, the window into musicology, and how all those touch American religious understanding. I love this movie.

[00:04:13] I've only seen it once. I'm definitely going to see it again. And I don't know if I'm qualified to teach a class like this, but I would love to take a class like this. I'd go back to school for this. I would. I sign up. I'll sign up. Yeah. Give me this. Yeah. This is. What about you, Alicia? I'm actually going to go back and see it on Friday with a friend who hasn't seen it yet. And this is, I'm so excited. It's one of those ones where I'm going to be, like, watching the film, but also watching her for her responses, you know? Yes. Yes.

[00:04:43] Um, yeah. So I went in knowing, I mean, I saw it's like maybe even close to opening night. Um, but I went in knowing that Ryan Coogler, like I'm familiar with this stuff, obviously from Black Panther, from Fruitvale Station. I have not seen Creed yet, but I know that I should. I know people love it. I know. Yeah. I know. You should. Yeah. Um, but I know that he is such a film nerd. In fact, I don't know if you guys saw this. He did this.

[00:05:12] It's basically a commercial for Kodak, but it's so, such a brilliant marketing move that everyone's talking about it, where he goes through and talks about the different types of film and the differences in recording with each and the aspect ratios and everything. And yeah. So I went in with a high level of expectation and it blew it out of the water. You know, like I was like, I think I'm going to like this film, but I, it's definitely for me so far, it's the film of the year and I have a hard time seeing anything supplanting it.

[00:05:42] Yeah. Even though I did also really like Thunderbolts. Um, I, I was just looking it up for this, what the runtime was and it's 138 minutes and I was surprised looking it up for the notes. I was like, Oh wow, really? That is a longer movie, but I did not feel that at all. No, it just blew by. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I looked at my watch or anything when I went.

[00:06:05] I love, I love Ryan Coogler's friendship and collaboration with the primary composer, Ludwig Gorenson, who's a Swedish guy and they've been doing Black Panther, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think like all of their movies, they met in college. And so they've been doing the interview rounds and talking about their meeting in college and it's adorable. Um, but also I love that Ludwig Gorenson, he's like, I'm a Swedish guy. So he's like, okay, I have my violinist wife, Serena.

[00:06:34] She's obviously inputting on, um, on, on that side of things, you know, where the fiddle music came into it. But he was like, we need someone who really knows the blues. And they brought in, uh, Lawrence Boo Mitchell, who's, uh, a blues producer and the owner of Royal Studios. Um, I just think, yeah, the talent, I think this is the thing about Ryan Coogler is that he knows how to recognize and harness talent and bring it together synergistically.

[00:07:01] Um, we see that with the music, we see that with the cinematography, the cinematographers, Autumn Derald Archipol. And I think so far, all of these people can and should be nominated for Oscars at the end of the year. Um, the production design. So that's Hannah Beachler. And she just put the most, uh, the, the most, um, intricate details into everything.

[00:07:28] And just thinking about things you never would have thought of. Like one thing she pointed out in an interview was, uh, there's a church at the beginning of the film. Um, it starts inside a church. And she pointed out that if you look at the ceiling beams, it's like they're crossing their arms, like the Wakanda forever gesture as, you know, a tip towards Chadwick Boseman. Yeah.

[00:07:49] So it's just, I just, yeah, I think that this is a game changing film for me, maybe the most, I mean, every year I feel like there's been one game changing film. Like last year, Dune part two, what they did with it cinematically year before that, everything everywhere all at once. And this is that film for me that I'm going to be still gushing about it years from now. And I think it's going to be remembered for ever. Yeah.

[00:08:18] It really has that feel of like, it has potential to not only be a box half a success, but also a cult classic. And it's almost like those two things have to live in separate worlds, but every now and again, you know, you get a star Wars, you know? Right. So yeah, this, this definitely could be one of those movies. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I'm going to ask this question. I think we might all have the same answer.

[00:08:45] Is this one to watch in the theater or is it okay to wait for it to come just streaming? Oh, don't wait. Don't wait. Don't get me wrong. Wherever you watch the movie, you're going to enjoy the movie because it's just that damn good. But don't wait to, to experience, you have to experience it. You have to go on a big screen and watch it.

[00:09:09] You just have to, I, I, I'm going to try to see it in the IMAX when it re-releases, hopefully next week or the week after. Um, but you, you have to, yeah, there's no reason to wait. There is no reason to wait to, until it comes to streaming to go watch it, go and watch this movie.

[00:09:34] There is, we're not spoiling anything yet, but there is a scene midway into the movie where. At the one hour mark, David, he has a thing about that. Something happens and I, you know, chills up and down my spine and, and I'm thinking, this is why I come to the movie. This moment right here, because I've never experienced this moment before.

[00:10:01] And I'm glad that I had this experience, the visual, the audio, uh, you know, the, the, the, almost like, um, it was important to have at one point, uh, almost a tactile experience because the rhythm of the moment, I could feel it. And, uh, anyway, I, I love, I love it.

[00:10:26] I love movies that remind you why seeing a movie in a theater is so important. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. We'll give a quick nod. We're not going to dwell on this too much about the early reporting on the film had, if I'm going to be perfectly honest, a slightly racist bent where they were talking. Slightly. Slightly. Oh, I have got, I didn't look at any reviews or anything about this. Cause I didn't want to be spoiled. I didn't know. Right. Right.

[00:10:55] So, well, the, the, what's behind it is that people are so afraid of the deal that Ryan Coogler got because, um, he got, he basically, there was a bidding war for this film because people recognize that this was gold. And, um, he said, okay, well this, for me, this is like my magnum opus. So I'm going to ask for some extra things. I really want it to be what's in my head. So he said he wants, uh, asked for, yes, for first dollar gross. So that means that he gets his money, uh, before costs are taken out.

[00:11:26] Um, he asked for final cut privilege, which I think needs to be handed out more often, but unfortunately it's not. I'm really glad he got it here. And he asked for the rights to revert after 25 years. Yeah. I heard that. And, um, this is not the first time such a deal has been made. Quentin Tarantino that everyone's been saying made a similar deal with once upon a time in Hollywood. Um, and the WB, they accepted this deal because they really wanted the film.

[00:11:51] And, uh, and then people like the reporting around it at first was, uh, was, oh, well, it had a really great first weekend, but it was always, but, but, but will it make it? Will it make it? Well, guess what? It only dropped 6% in week two, which is unheard of. Basically, this is a very rare thing to only drop 6%, um, making 45 million in second weekend.

[00:12:18] Uh, it's, if you compare it to films like Oppenheimer and Joker, which are other big rated R films that have done quite well commercially, it's doing better now than Oppenheimer did, even though it lost its IMAX theaters more quickly. As John said, it does. They are going to be, it's going to be back in IMAX theaters for, um, a while. And I have to say, I'm going on Friday to see this. And that will be the fourth weekend.

[00:12:47] And it was still sold out. Hmm. So it's doing quite well. It's, it's the budget, uh, the reported budget, 90 million. It's already made more than 240 million worldwide as of May 6th. So eat it haters. So, okay. That's all great news. I don't hear any, like, uh, any, the racist tinge that. Oh no. It was at the beginning. I'm, I, I breezed by that.

[00:13:14] That, that was the reporting at the beginning was all the, um, Oh, this deal's ruining Hollywood. And it had a strong first meet, uh, weekend, but, but, but, but now it's, they can't say those things anymore. Cause it's doing so well. So they didn't say that about Tarantino. No, not once. Yeah. Never written, not an article.

[00:13:33] Nothing was ever written about Quentin's, um, deal, which the, the whole thing is, it's laughable to me that you have someone in Kugler who I don't think is yet 40. Right. Right. With, uh, a history of excellent filmmaking, right? This is the, this is a person you want to make your film. Right. Yeah.

[00:14:00] For them, for the articles to, to screen that he got this deal as if getting the things that you want are inherently bad. Mm-hmm. Is asinine.

[00:14:15] Like if you have a good enough negotiating team, if your vision is clear enough, if the studio believes in the clarity of this vision and you are able to squeeze every dime out of a studio that the business is notoriously cheap. Mm-hmm.

[00:14:38] When it comes to filmmakers and you're able to do this, it should be lauded, not presented as if this was going to kill the film industry. Mm-hmm. Right. And I loved, uh, in interviews, people keep trying to get Ryan Kugler to say things. Like there's an entire genre of interview where it's people trying to get Ryan Kugler to say things.

[00:15:02] And he's like, nope, you're not getting that sound clip from me, but they're like, why do you think that the reporting has been like that? He's like, you know, that's what, you know why I think it is. He's like, I'm not going to say it. You know, you're trying to make me say it, but you know. Yeah. They made, what, what was it? 40, how much did they make first week? I mean, it was more than, uh, it was, I think it was, it was over 60 million worldwide.

[00:15:29] And that was because, and then the reporting was also immediately like. As if that was a failure. Yeah. And then, exactly. And then, and then they were also like, oh, it's not doing well in Europe. I was like, well, some countries in the Netherlands, I, it opened and it was immediately. I think number one in the box office here, other countries it opened later. So they're like, oh, it's not doing well in Europe. Frickin look and see what countries it's open in so far before you, you know, try to find everything to talk down this movie. But now there's nothing.

[00:15:59] Uh, of course the, the reviews are good. Uh, Rotten Tomatoes has 97% from both critics and audience. Uh, Metacritic has 84% from critics, 7.7 from audiences. And Letterboxd has 4.2 out of five. And I'll say as a regular Letterboxd user, that is unheard of. And the five star line is far, you know, it's, it's, uh, sticking up above all the rest. So.

[00:16:25] Just one more little bit about, about this before we move into, uh, you know, the next conversation. I think that if you are listening to this and you're not sure whether you want to see it, um, for whatever, maybe you don't like vampire movies. Maybe you don't like horror movies. Mm-hmm. As a, as a horror movie, I don't think I was very scared. Okay.

[00:16:53] You know, it's, I don't feel like, um, this should turn off people who just aren't into vampire movies. Um, there's no doubt it is a vampire movie. You know, there's some serious tropes. There's, I mean, it is, you know, we're not talking about Conclave here. We're talking about a vampire movie, right? Right. But it's almost like the vampire movie is the Trojan's horse. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:17:22] And there's, there's a ton of other social commentary that's being snuck in. And so if, you know, if you, if you're just, if you're interested in, in American music, if you're interested in great storytelling, this movie should not, is not, it's not only for people who like vampire movies. Right. And, and just to piggyback really quickly before we move on, this story is not just for black folk. Mm-mm. Right.

[00:17:50] If you enjoy good movies, it's a good movie. Yeah. Right. And, and, and the thing is, you know, depositing of this as if only black people will support this because this is a black film, which is the undercurrent of what a lot of the articles were, is just to me in 2025, even more infuriating than it was in let's say 1999. You know what I mean?

[00:18:18] It just, it, it, it, it, it gets, it's something that gets old and it really, it angers me because we've been on, on podcasts and I've explained my history with all things sci-fi and fantasy. Mm-hmm. I don't, if I don't see myself doesn't mean that the movie isn't for me. Right. Right.

[00:18:44] We have a, we need to change this lens that we have in our country. I'm not talking to those abroad just yet, at least, but here in the States that if it doesn't feature white people, if it doesn't feature, if it's not done by a white director and doesn't feature white people, then it's a movie not for white America. That is such bullshit. Right.

[00:19:11] And we need to stop and realize that when you call out the bullshit, it makes other films get made. It makes other media get made. Right. So I'm not here to tell anyone to go watch the movie because it's a, it's a social thing. It's just a damn good movie. It's just a damn good movie.

[00:19:35] But don't tell me that, or don't insinuate that because it's a largely all black, largely minority cast that white Americans can't go and flock to the theater to see this movie. It's bullshit. Well, I have to say, I was surprised. Use my language. I'm sorry. No, I mean, come on. We put an explicit rating on here so that we can tell us, say what we really think.

[00:20:03] But as, as someone who is, has a background in Potawatomi, Native American folklore and Celtic folk music, I was sitting there in the middle of the movie looking at this being like, oh shit, I'm in this film. Oh, damn. Interesting. Interesting. So, yeah. As far as caveats that we would give to people, you know, we've, we've mentioned a little bit violence and stuff.

[00:20:31] It is, there is sex in this movie. There are definite sex scenes, but it's not explicit and it's not, it's sex that it's consensual and approached on, you know, a loving basis. We should say, even if some are sinners, I'm just saying that because of the name we, there's a few jump scares at the beginning. There's a scene where a snake gets harmed. I looked into it.

[00:20:55] This, they were very careful about this and I know all the details about how they handled the snake killing scene and no animals were harmed in this film for sure. They took great lengths. But what would you, Anthony, are you familiar with the book? I am not. I think I've been on a podcast where it was used before, but I've never heard it explained to me. Okay. So basically it is how on a scale of zero to five, mostly you can go negative. This one obviously doesn't go negative.

[00:21:25] How violent do you think this film is as a warning to people who avoid violence? And it can also be sociological violence. Yeah. Yeah. I'll listen to your ratings before I give a rating. What do you think, Joe? It's pretty high. I think it's not that. It's not a five, I don't think. Or a four. I don't know if it's a five, but I can see it being a four. All right. I'm going to go with a three, I think.

[00:21:53] Because surprising, like there's blood. It's a vampire movie. And there's some like, I guess there's some wounds because, you know, the people are brought back and they're not healed. I think it's, yeah, I think it's a four. Solid. Okay. Solid. All right. I don't know if I quite. Okay. If let's measure it against other vampire movies. I would say like it's a two. All right. All right.

[00:22:20] So if we're just measuring against other vampire movies, I don't think it's very high. But if you're going to measure it against like Stand By Me, it's pretty high. It's a four. Yeah, but Stand By Me also does have psychological violence, which also counts. Okay. Well, here's what I would say. Like if I'm watching Kill Bill and I see someone beheaded. Yeah. No, this is not like that. It's not Kill Bill. Yes.

[00:22:50] Well, no, no, no. Let me finish my thought here. If I'm watching Kill Bill and I see someone beheaded and the blood comes out like it's a hose, like there's just a hose of blood squirting around. I know that that's not real. Or if I'm watching Evil Dead 2 and the blood looks more like Kool-Aid. You know, it's like in Evil Dead 2, the blood looks like pink Kool-Aid. I'm not as affected. Right? Okay. Okay. All right.

[00:23:20] So there's a way. There's a language of communicating violence that kind of winks to the audience and says, you know, this isn't real. Right? And to me, that's less of a internal. It's sort of less of an internalized violence.

[00:23:38] But, you know, I guess if I would just say in terms of a vampire movie, I was expecting to be more scared, more grossed out. Okay. And this movie isn't necessarily about that. It's not necessarily about trying to scare me or gross me out. It's, it has a lot, you know, it's got bigger fish to fry, I guess is what I would say. Yeah. Agree. For me, the grossest moment involves spit.

[00:24:08] So take that for what it's worth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want to ask you too. I want to ask, I want to get your take on this. All right. Yeah. This is tough. Go ahead, Alicia. Um, you can either say your favorite vampire or vampire movie. I'm happy to get one. Okay.

[00:24:37] So for me, this is, I put a list just for listeners. I put a list in the notes of like just vampire movies off the top of my head. So I'm kind of looking at this while I think, and it's got, it's got everything from obviously, obviously the first thing I'm going to think of is Dracula and Nosferatu, all the various iterations thereof. And then I just declared that the latest Nosferatu was my favorite version of that, but yet I like this better. So, okay.

[00:25:03] Then that automatically by the transit of property means it ranks above all of those movies. Uh, do I think it's better than the blade movies we have so far? Yes. Um, honestly, yeah. A lot of people are comparing it with from dust till dawn. I think this, yes, I see obviously the comparisons, but I think this blows that out of the water. There is a few conscious homages, I think from dust till dawn at this film. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[00:25:29] For me, I, the only thing that's comparable is actually the TV show version of interview with the vampire, because that is just another one that really sets itself in the historicity of it. Interesting. Um, and that really delves into the social issues and the setting in which it finds itself and how that interacts with the characters. So if I, if there's anything I would ever rank above this in the vampire realm, I think

[00:25:59] it would be the TV show version of interview with the vampire. Interesting. Everything else on this list I'm looking at, and I love Let the Right One In. I love A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night, which is an Iranian feminist vampire movie. Um, What We Do in the Shadows, so funny, so different. Although this one has a lot of laughs. Buffy, um, Underworld. Abigail, last year, loved that one. This one blows them all out of the water for me. Yeah. Jean?

[00:26:27] Um, let's get this out of the way. I contemplated cosplaying Blackula. That's where I'm at with this. You know what I'm saying? That's where I'm coming from. Just, just so the people understand. You know, I was looking out for folks cosplaying as Blackula. That's, that's where I'm at with it. But, I will say, I will say, I, I love Fright Night.

[00:26:57] Mm-hmm. Lost Boys is the same genre, I feel like. Yeah. Yeah, it is. I'm not too much of a Lost Boys guy, but I, I really dig Fright Night. Um, I like this film better. Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Yeah. I, I can't, I like this film better than the Blade films. I like this film better than 30 Days of Night, which is one of my favorite vampire flicks of all time.

[00:27:24] Um, I like it better than Nosferatu. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, I, I think maybe it's recency bias, I don't know. But right now, I think this would rank above all of the others. Interesting. So, I'm looking at the list that you came up with, and I'm realizing, I guess I just don't

[00:27:53] have a large affection for vampire movies. Okay. And, I was thinking, like, like, I, I feel like I, I'll see any werewolf movie. Like, I love werewolf movies. Mm-hmm. Me too, me too. I, I do really like that film, the Swedish film, Let the Right One In. Yep. Great movie. Love that movie. Uh, big Lost Boys fan.

[00:28:17] Um, I love the, the bit of the vampire movie that explores unnatural long life. Like, I, I'm just fascinated by that. Mm-hmm. So, if you can give me a movie that really kind of plays with the, the problems related to immortal undead. I'm interested in that part of the vampire movie. Um, so I'm not a huge aficionado. That's why I describe myself as vampire curious.

[00:28:46] Uh, but this film for me transcends the, the genre. So, uh, I love this film. I'm not usually into the vampire film. Question, would you guys call this film a musical? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But if you go into it, that's why I called it a bluesicle. If you go into it expecting like a musical, it's not going to be wicked or something.

[00:29:14] It's not, it doesn't have the feel of Broadway. Mm-hmm. But it is a musical for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to talk through those musical moments. All right. Any last spoiler free thoughts you want to throw out before we take a break and dive into the film? Nah. Let's do it. Just go see the movie. All right. We'll take a quick break here. When we come back, we're going to be full spoilers. So you are warned.

[00:29:43] Oh, we heard tale of a party. All right. Jean, do you want to do the setup with the bot for us? Absolutely. Preacher's son, Sammy, wants to use his night off to help his cousin, Smoke and Stack, open a new juke joint where he, local blues legend Delta Slim, and others will play live blues

[00:30:07] and they will all indulge in a little, according to Sammy's father, sinful fun with fancy blues and the women in their lives. Only, Sammy's music is so good, it opens a rift in time and space, attracting an ancient Irish vampire named Remig and his two new followers. He wants Sammy to join his coven so he can use his gifts, initiating a war with everyone in the juke joint. Most are killed and reborn as the undead, including Stack.

[00:30:36] Smoke and Sammy team up to take them all down, and then Smoke ends his own life in a gunfight with the local KKK that takes them all down as well, leaving Sammy as the only survivor. Or, so he thinks. Dun, dun, dun. Dun. So I love, I love the, um, they had me from the opening of this film because they do that like folklore voiceover and as soon as there is a folklore voiceover, I'm like, oh, I'm buckled in.

[00:31:04] So they say, there are legends of people born with the gift of making music so true it can pierce the veil between life and death, conjuring spirits from the past and the future. In ancient Ireland, they were called the Philly. In Choctaw land, they called them fire keepers. And in West Africa, they're called the griot. This gift can bring healing to their communities, but it also attracts evil. Sit voice.

[00:31:32] Um, so, uh, Sean, you and I have talked a bit about who do voodoo in like the Agatha episodes for Marvel fans. Um, I am not a descendant of American slavery, right? So I'm not a descendant of African slaves in this part of the hemisphere, but I recognize all of those things, right? Cause, um, Haitian by heritage.

[00:32:02] So who do voodoo right up my wheelhouse. I loved every single minute of it. Everything about it, um, felt true and it felt real and it felt, you know, familiar. And I think that's the thing with this movie is that even though we may come from different places, there are things that are familiar to us all. Right.

[00:32:30] And this country for some reason has brought all of these things together in a mismatch. So I really felt connected to the characters, felt connected to the story, felt connected to the land via my own experiences with the topics that they were talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, by the way, I have to do a random shout out to, there is a connection between

[00:33:00] the griot side of this and the doctor who episode that's coming out this Saturday as this releases, which is it's a season, I'm sorry, episode four of season two. It's called the story and the engine. And all I can say about it now is it's set in Lagos. And as the title suggests, it's about storytelling, uh, African storytelling to be specific. Um, yeah, it's interesting. The other two groups that they cite.

[00:33:27] So the Philly of the, of Ireland and the fire keepers of, uh, the Choctaw. So the Philly, that's kind of like a looking forward thing. You know, it's about divination, about foretelling and then the fire keepers. So I don't necessarily know that much about the Choctaw, although actually John and I did do a deep dive into their culture for the echo Marvel series. So I'll link that episode in the show notes for anyone who wants to know more about the

[00:33:53] Choctaw, but I am from another tribe called the Potawatomi and the Potawatomi name literally means, uh, keepers of the fire and the, and it's part of this council of the three file fires with the Ojibwa and the Odawa and Potawatomis are the little brother. And every tribe within that triplicate has a duty and the Potawatomi duty is to preserve history.

[00:34:17] So it's interesting to think about this, you know, connecting time, you know, tearing open holes through time and space. And then think about, well, so we have the looking forward on the Irish side with the Philly and then with the fire keepers, we have the looking back. And it just reminds me of when I go to the reservation, every time I go there, the museum on the reservation gets a bit bigger where you can literally walk the timeline of tribe from pre-European through the trail of death into Oklahoma.

[00:34:46] Um, and yeah, that's, that is what's, if you think about it, that is what's happening where it's storytelling to connect across time and space. Hmm. I love the premise that the mythological premise that will allow vampires to come into this particular story. It is that it's not every music that does this. Mm hmm.

[00:35:11] It's, it's, it's certain musicians that have a certain unique ability to sort of almost tear the veil between past and future and, and heal in the process. And of course, because there is power in that, some, some kind of supernatural power in that

[00:35:34] kind of music, it of course is going to attract, you know, evil in this case, it attracts, uh, Remick. Mm hmm. And, uh, so anyway, I love that it's a simple twist on the lore. Otherwise this movie is very faithful to sort of the, the, the old vampire lore and tropes and whatnot. Mm hmm.

[00:35:57] It's a simple twist on it, but it allows the movie to connect what is fundamental about the black religious tradition in America. Mm hmm. And this, this, you know, this other kind of vampire mythology that that's almost, almost seems ancillary, but in this little quick, little move, this quick little twist, Coogler

[00:36:25] is able to bring those together in a way that makes, Oh, this is all going to make sense. This is totally, this is going to fit together really great. Yeah. He said one of his inspirations was the combination of cultures that contributes to Mississippi blues, which he says, of course, that's, that's, you know, the black musical culture via Africa, via, uh, the Caribbean via, uh, the call and responses in, in the fields, things like that.

[00:36:51] But also, uh, the contributions, as he said, of, of the Asian American populations in the deep South, particularly Chinese and the uneasy alliance that they had with the black community. And also through the poor Celtic folk, which is where my family comes from. Um, oh yeah. So I gotta say, uh, I am into genealogy and there's a point in one's, uh, research into their own genealogy when you gotta like look at the Southern side of your family and be like,

[00:37:20] why is there a black side of the family over there? And, uh, I'm relieved to say that we were just all four. So they lived together. I found, I found census, uh, that people were living together in the workhouses and, um, um, you know, sharing grooves and obviously beds. And, uh, I like to think, well, I know for a fact sharing music because yeah, I grew up in this folk culture where it was the same stage would be an Irish musician and then a blues musician and just, yeah. Sharing space like that.

[00:37:50] However, uneasily, especially in the past. Yeah. Uh, do you guys, so I'm, I don't need a sequel and usually like, I would say this stands on on its own, but I really want, if not Ryan Coogler, I want someone to do the Choctaw prequel that gets us to that point where Remick is running through. And then I want someone after that to do the pre-prequel with Remick's origin story. Yeah.

[00:38:16] I think that was kind of an important part of the movie because it establishes, you know, when the Choctaw come to the door and they realize you let that guy through the threshold, like you let that guy in and that we know he's in there. And if you care about your life, we're going to have to handle that guy quick, quick, quick. And what that does, that little scene that does, what it shows is this is a problem that's beyond

[00:38:45] your imagining in your white mythological construct. And you're going to have to ally with someone who you don't trust because of American racism in order to solve this problem. And of course, what that does is it establishes this problem is old. There are people out there who are experts on this. It can be handled, but it won't be because these, these white farmsteaders are simply not

[00:39:15] going to allow the Choctaw to, to sort of help them with their problem. Yeah. It took me a beat. Yeah. I was just going to say, it took me a beat to get there because the first, when they're running in, I'm like, oh, well, they're just trying to be good citizens, helping the poor hurt guy, even though, you know, I knew he's a vampire, but I was like, they didn't know he's a vampire. And then later on you find out they're KKK. I'm like, no, they were just being racist. Oh, they were. Of course. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. But sorry, Sean, what were you going to say?

[00:39:45] Yeah. The best part of that entire scene to me was when the sun was going down and they were like, all right, we out. Peace. We tried. You know what I'm saying? We tried, but you know what? You ain't worth it. We ain't risking. We ain't dying out here for you. You know, we came here to help. We trying to help. You don't want the help. Sun's going down. We are out. And they boogieed out of there. And I love that.

[00:40:15] I love that they were not some sort of, you know, sacrifice to this altar of humanity of, you know, of this all get along and help each other. They tried. Your belief system would not allow you to let them help. And they recognize that. Yeah. And they said, fuck it. We out. Yeah. And I loved it. Yeah. It was fantastic.

[00:40:39] And it was such a short scene that allows the movie to move on to the story it really wants to tell. But in answer to your question, Alicia, I think that you could easily do a prequel that follows these people and how they encounter this, you know, this Remick for the first time, how they deal with it, what, how their particular religious tradition allows them to combat it.

[00:41:07] I don't think that that's necessarily Coogler's story to tell. Well, he would have to at least work with someone from the Choctaw community. I'm sure he would. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, clearly he's, you know, he's, he has it in his mind what this story has to be. But to leave that out of the story entirely would be a disservice. I think he did it perfectly. Yeah. So he brought in the Choctaw perfectly. I think maybe we would. Yeah.

[00:41:36] And it does leave it open. Like, I'd love to see a, some kind of spinoff with those folks. I'd love to see a spinoff with, you know, sort of stack and 1990s Chicago. I mean, there are things that I would love to see. I don't, but I almost feel like at this point, the canon, the canon's kind of perfection. So you're always going to risk, you know, diluting it with sequels and prequels.

[00:42:05] I don't think I want a Remick prequel. Pre, pre, prequel? No. Yeah. I don't think I want to see Remick's story of vampirism. Right. But I would be interested to see the, maybe his first encounter in this new world. And this, you know, from the old world to the new, how he got here and how he encountered the Choctaw. I think that would be a great story to tell. But necessarily not him. Yeah. Okay.

[00:42:33] We do have an answer as to how he got here, which I'll get into in a little bit because there was an Easter egg. But I, yeah. Okay. So I do want his pre prequel, like, but I want that to be after the Choctaw prequel. I'm like work backwards on this one. But because we got the barest suggestion of it, but this is an old ass vampire who's probably, he made it sound like he was alive when the Christians came to town. So we're talking like fifth century, basically. Right. Right.

[00:43:04] And also just to see how did this, you know, how did this happen in this sort of resistance? And what's interesting, something that was pointed out that I ended up doing a rabbit hole after seeing this post on Blue Sky from Specialist K. There's something called Choctaw Irish Solidarity, where basically after the Irish potato famine, which is for anyone who doesn't know, we're not going to go into the whole history, but

[00:43:29] it's, it's something that did not have to happen and was very much British imperialism was the main contributing factor to that coming to play. And the Choctaw, they had just gone through their trail of tears where they ended up in Oklahoma and they're reestablishing themselves in Oklahoma and they find out about this potato famine. And they're like, we feel a kindred spirit with these people. They are dealing with similar things to what we're dealing with.

[00:43:55] So they ended up gathering a whole bunch of money and made the single largest contribution to the Irish potato famine came from the Choctaw tribe. And the Irish found out about that years later. They're like, oh, wow, most of this actually came from the Choctaw. And then I looked into their history and they're like, wow, we're kindred spirits. And so they've had, there's been a special Choctaw Irish friendship ever since then for like a century. So I think that would be really interesting to explore as well.

[00:44:23] And how does that, you know, you have someone who's a friend, but then there's a viper in their mix, in their midst. How does that play into anything? Yeah. Okay. So John, what is your feeling in general? Let's start getting into the characters. What are your feelings about Michael B. Jordan as an actor in general? I like him and don't like him. Okay.

[00:44:49] He's not, he's not on my, yeah, I like him and I don't like him, but I think he was just really great in this movie. He was absolutely phenomenal in this movie. There were times, like I said earlier that I, you know, had to say to myself, oh, it's one guy, it's one person inhabiting both of these roles. Because I got caught up in thinking of them as two separate people, right?

[00:45:20] Which is the film. They are two separate people. But to realize that he played those roles. So I don't want to say perfectly, but he just embodied both of those characters to make them distinct from each other in that way was really impressive. So kudos to him because I don't know if I, like I really enjoyed Creed and I really enjoyed Fru Val.

[00:45:47] There are some hiccups in between, you know, after those movies. But he was just spectacular. I really think he did one of the best portrayals of a character that I've seen in quite some time. Yeah. I was a little, at the beginning, I was a little distracted just trying to pay attention to the VFX. Like when they're both smoking against the car, I'm like, of them handing it back and forth. I'm like, oh, they're doing that to establish that.

[00:46:16] But I had to turn off my movie making brain. Yeah. So I turned it off immediately. I was just like, yeah, let me not even think about that. So I'm glad that you mentioned that because I, I feel like that if you would have cast someone else to play a brother, maybe a fraternal twin instead of an identical twin, you bring in a sort of a different actor with a different range that might've added to my experience.

[00:46:45] I don't, I don't think that the movie can be faulted for using Michael B. Jordan the way it did. I do think that there would be less of my metacritical brain turned on if it was two different actors. Separate. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I think there were, there were times, like you said, when I was a little bit distracted

[00:47:08] by it and it could have, I could have been like more invested in the storytelling if I wasn't like worrying about like, it was just a different level of, of a sort of brain power that wasn't necessarily all invested in the movie. Hmm. Hmm. But I do like, as Jean said, how he, he played it differently and also how Kugler made sure that, you know, you could tell them apart.

[00:47:37] Like, so stack is always wearing red and he's the one who smiles. You never see smoke smiling. He's the one wearing blue and he's the, he's the killer of the two. Um, they actually brought in twin consultants to try to get it right. Interesting. Yeah. Huh. Do you guys notice other differences between them? Yeah. When you, when you point out that stack smoke was more serious. Mm-hmm.

[00:48:04] I felt like a, there was a heaviness to, to his character. Like it wasn't just seriousness. There was, there was like, it almost felt like he was the one who had the weight on his shoulders. Mm-hmm. Like, like almost as if you have a older sibling and the older sibling is always looking out for you. That's what it felt like to me. Like he was the one who was supposed to be in charge.

[00:48:32] He was the one who was supposed to be ensuring that everyone was okay. Ensuring that his brother was okay. Right. And that's what it felt like to me. Apart from him being the obvious killer of the two, it just felt like he had the most burden placed on him for some reason. Yeah. For me, when I found out that it was smoke who ended up killing their father. Mm-hmm. To me, that explained the, every single, every different difference between them.

[00:49:02] Like I was like, right. Oh, this guy carries that weight. This guy knew what needed to be done. He, he's the one that decided to do it, but he is haunted by it. Mm-hmm. And this has changed his demeanor. It changes how, what kind of businessman he is. You know, he's a little bit less, he doesn't have the benefit of joy because he's got that hanging over his head.

[00:49:31] Mm-hmm. I have a question for you, Anthony, since you know more about the Bible than I do. Um, uh, some people have been pointing out, so their, their real names are Elijah smoke more and Elias stack more. Yeah. Do you, and people have been connecting that with the prophet Eli. Do you see that? Yeah. I mean, those are kind of two different ways to say the name. Uh, one, it would be like a more Hebraic iteration of the name, one, a more Greek iteration of

[00:50:01] the name, but it's from the same root. And it does suggest some kind of biblical relationship between these two. Um, famously, you know, Elijah ends up sort of passing the mantle to Elisha. Mm-hmm. And, uh, there is sort of a fire theme that, that goes with that particular biblical imagery. But the, the, the image that I was most affected by was the Cain and Abel imagery, which

[00:50:30] just is throughout this movie. And I don't know if you want to deal with this now or later. No, please. Yeah. But okay. So I went down a couple rabbit trails too. So once I realized, uh, oh, they're playing with, they're playing with the Mark of Cain, uh, issue, uh, right. So let's just start with the fact that Smoke is his brother's keeper. Literally. Mm-hmm. He is his brother's keeper. He takes care of him. He's the person who looks after him and he protects him.

[00:51:00] So he's clearly the brother's keeper. Well, in the biblical story, there is the question after one brother kills the other, when Cain kills Abel, the divine voice comes in and says, uh, Hey, where's your brother? And the answer is, am I my brother's keeper? Now it's, it's set in a form of a question, but the implication here is I am not my brother's keeper.

[00:51:25] And of course that kind of brings out this, the, the, the, not only the first murder, but the first, uh, fratricide that happens, which creates this massive amount of discord in the world, you know, which, you know, you could say sort of is that initial first murder and has reverberates out in sort of this sinful thing that covers the land.

[00:51:50] But there, you got two different trajectories in the Cain mythology. So this is post Bible, right? So let's fast forward, uh, into the third century or fourth century after Jesus, there's this Greek text called the apocalypse of Moses. You can look it up online. One of the very first lines in that Greek, uh, Jewish, uh, historical fiction is Eve wakes

[00:52:20] up with a dream and she tells Adam what her dream was. She's, I had a dream that Cain, our son was drinking the blood of his brother and he just kept on gulping him down. And then he didn't even, and his brother said, leave some blood for me. And he didn't leave any blood. And so that kind of creates this mythology of what we would consider sort of the first

[00:52:47] time, uh, Cain is linked to like vampire lore. So you, you go, you go a lot of different places with this, but there is sort of a vampiric legend that Cain is the first vampire, right? As a fan of supernatural. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Supernatural long life has to walk the earth, you know, and, and carries this curse with him, uh, a blood drinking kind of immortal. All right.

[00:53:14] So, uh, you know, the, the text in the, the, the third to fourth century doesn't, it doesn't use the word vampire, but that's where we get the idea. Right. So counter to that is you've got this modern white supremacist mythology of the Mark of Cain being, okay. What was the Mark? Well, maybe it's dark skin and allows modern white supremacists to justify slavery and all

[00:53:43] kinds of racism because the curse is biblical. The, the, the people with darker skin than us, they carry this curse and it is a divine curse. And so it gives us a particular, uh, um, mandate to, uh, to, you know, sort of propel white, white supremacy. Kugler clearly knows both of these traditions. Right. And what he's doing is he draws these, both these, uh, sort of the Cain lore of the vampire

[00:54:12] and the Cain lore of white supremacy. And he puts them both together in conversation in this movie in a way that like, as a, as a religious studies professor, I'm like, yes, that's it. That, that, that is deserving of a, of a book or a class or something to kind of draw out these parallels and, uh, and Kugler, he doesn't, doesn't come out and spit, you know, he doesn't like, uh, hit the nail on the head or like, he's not ham fisted in any way.

[00:54:40] Uh, he just sneaks it in there. Uh, it, it just genius, genius. Yeah. I also love, um, there's, there's so many different levels at which you can evaluate the events in this movie. Like obviously you can take them. You could go in and just enjoy it as a simple, these are the things that happened on the screen. Wow. That was a great movie, but you can also take this, you know, this, uh, level of, of the lore, which they're clearly presenting for you and have several different origins, but

[00:55:10] also you can just look at it as an allegory for sociology for life, you know? And at the end of this movie, smoke loses stack to a different way of life. Like we're basically, he chose the communism route to, uh, put it cheaply. And yeah, just there's, uh, I think like I could watch every time I watched this, I could look through a different lens and it experienced the movie differently. Yeah.

[00:55:36] To tie a bow on just one more little thing here, that scene where smoke has the opportunity to kill stack and then it cuts away and you're not really sure what happens. That is almost a retelling of the Abel and Kane story, right? In this, in this case, the familial bonds in this case, you know, the, the two, these two African-American brothers, they, they connect on a level that's deeper than the vampire

[00:56:06] family, the new vampire family. Mm-hmm. And I think that you could absolutely view that as a metaphor for, you know, uh, brothers of all kinds of all places. Uh, but in this particular story, it does happen to be African-American brothers. And I think that that was just beautifully rendered. Right. Right. So, um, smoke and stack are kind of sold as the leads of this movie, but I would say actually

[00:56:32] the lead is Sammy preacher boy more played by miles Katon. And this was his debut role. Can you believe that? Unbelievable. Yeah. Unbelievable. Yeah. Um, also he was played, uh, in the older version by buddy guy and I love how they did the claw marks and the cheeks. So as soon as you saw that in the older version, you're like, Oh, all right. Same dude. All right. We're jumping forward. Um, yeah.

[00:56:58] And what did you guys think about his relationship with his preacher dad, Jedediah played by Saul Williams? Wow. Wow. That, that was, that was something because, you know, again, getting personal, like for me, I'm raised Catholic, first generation born in this country, right. From Haitian immigrant parents.

[00:57:27] And my mom is Catholic and my father is a born again Christian. Right. So having those two dueling faiths in my upbringing, um, was something. And I recognize my father's family and Sammy's dad. Mm-hmm. Cause my father was not that way. Mm-hmm.

[00:57:57] He was not this dogmatic, um, if you don't do this, you're going to hell. Father, even though the faith that his children were being raised in was the antithesis of what he believed. Huh. Mm-hmm.

[00:58:17] I did recognize in Sammy's dad, the preacher at the pulpit screaming that you are going to burn forever because of your earthly vices. Mm-hmm. That's something that I'm so familiar with, but it was so interesting watching that on screen

[00:58:46] play out and then remembering, you know, talking with my own father, who's of the same faith tradition as Sammy's dad. And it being a completely different conversation. Mm-hmm. Mosh-mosh of a country, of the United States of America. Right?

[00:59:14] And this is what, to me, again, is so brilliant in this film because Sammy is really, he's struggling. He's trying to figure out, you know, where do I belong? Right? I have my family, but I also have this other found kind of family that I find through music, that I find myself through music. But I want to do the things that my family at home want me to do.

[00:59:43] I want to feel the thing that they feel when they're in the pulpit in the church. But I only get that feeling when I'm on the stage. Yeah. Huh. And it's so, it's just fascinating to watch it play out and having all these thoughts run through my mind of my own background, which is why this film is really astounding because

[01:00:07] not a lot of movies can you find yourself thinking about what you've experienced. And it doesn't have to be negative. Just, you know, what you've experienced in life. And wondering and saying to yourself, wow, how did he, how is that possible? You know? How are they getting these little, you know, thoughts and lines of thinking of ways of being

[01:00:35] that I've had and I don't know these people? Yeah. That speaks to the power of this film. Yeah. There was an interesting through line with Sammy's guitar where it was given to him by his cousins. And we have, I guess, Stack lied to him at the beginning and said that it was from Charlie Patton, father of blues. And he's like, proud of that, obviously. He's like, yeah, hell yeah.

[01:01:01] But then Smoke tells him at the end, like, no, it was actually my dad who has been presented throughout the film as an evil man. What do you think, Anthony? Do you think that it's trying to tell us that there can be evil in the guitar or that it's just an object? Or how do you think that plays into the story? Yeah. Well, of course, it's an object. It's not just an object in the movie, right?

[01:01:26] So in this case, this movie is sort of weaving together some really beautiful mythologies. And one of the mythologies that it's weaving through is this. I mean, clearly, I think that Sammy is a Robert Johnson type. Robert Johnson, you know, famously sold his soul to the devil. 1932 to the, you know, at the crossroads. Right. And, you know, that's when this movie is set.

[01:01:56] It's set in the early 30s in about the same area of the country. And what that story tells you is that there is a mythology around blues guitar that it is the devil's music. Right. And so from one particular view, you need to choose what the music that happens here in the church versus the music that happens in that juke joint.

[01:02:26] Because what happens over there is the devil's music. So make your choice. Right. And then you've got the reality of the situation is that both mythologies have power. Right. There is absolutely power in. And of course, with this movie, this power is sort of supernatural. Right.

[01:02:51] This is the kind of power that is going to tear the veil and allow the future and the past to come into the present and infuse the present with eternity in a way that is healing. And for Sammy, that's going to speak to him in a way that the church doesn't speak to him. Right.

[01:03:15] So for me, I just thought it was really great because it sort of puts Sammy forth as a person walking the line between these two worlds. And, you know, I teach at a predominantly African-American seminary. And a lot of my students are Sammy. A lot of my students had fathers who were preachers. And then there was an expectation on them to become a preacher.

[01:03:44] And they're coming to me like late in their career. Like they've gone out, they've done other things. They become lawyers or they've become social activists. And then they come back and they're like, all right, now I'm in my 40s. I realize I want to become a preacher like my dad. But they had to live that Sammy life first. Right. Right. So, you know, this is sort of a world that I'm sort of sort of an observer of and a close observer of because they're my students. And yet it's not my own experience.

[01:04:13] So I need to be careful about that. But I will say that there's times in this movie where Sammy becomes a liminal creature. He's at the threshold of light and dark. And he makes that choice to go toward the blues. And when he does that, there's a couple moments when this happens. Remick, it has him in shallow water. Yes. And he starts reciting the Lord's Prayer. Yes.

[01:04:40] And then you realize all the vampires know that. That's white man's religion. That has no power here. And then he is literally baptized by the vampire into that shallow water. In other words, he's almost like that's his crossroads moment. And then when he comes back to his father's house, he's got like the remnant of the guitar. He stands at the threshold of the church and his father has to invite him in.

[01:05:09] At that moment, I thought, is he a vampire? Yeah. He's not. But the movie is conscious about that. It's like this person is a gray enough character that you're not sure if is he of the vampires or is he of the children of God? And I think that that's what the movie is trying to say. It's like, no, he's a sinner. And that's kind of all of us. Yeah.

[01:05:33] And eventually, because he makes that choice later in the movie, he gets another chance. Do you want to walk on the dark side? Because you've been living in this gray space your whole life. And I think it's a really interesting way to end the movie. I love that particular character. It's a very complex, very interesting character with not a lot of lines in this movie.

[01:06:03] Yeah. What I find interesting, well, first of all, I just wanted to throw out since you brought up the Crossroads moment, Ryan Coogler said in interviews, he was, of course, literally thinking about that story. But he said in the versions, when he dug into it, he said instead of the devil, what he saw was that he made a deal with Papa Legba, which is like a voodoo entity. It's a voodoo. Interesting. So there's different versions of the story. Yeah. Right.

[01:06:32] And so that's, yeah, that's why. Yeah. That's why hoodoo was brought into this film as well. But I find it really interesting that we have Smoke and Stack and you have on the surface, it seems like Stack is the better dude. It seems like on the surface because he's the one who smiles. He's not the one who killed their dad, you know.

[01:06:53] But he's also, you realize that Smoke, even though he's the killer of the two, he's the one perhaps who's more driven by morality and fear and protectionism, you know. So when they are talking to Sammy about his future and its own crossroads of his future, does he go forward with the church or does he go forward with the blues? And Stack's like, yeah, get out of here, you know, like go live your life, be this big blues musician. And Smoke's like, no, go back.

[01:07:22] Go back and be happy that you have a safe place, you know. So it's just a very interesting comparison. Yeah. All right. Let's take a quick pause here. And when we come back, we're going to dive into the rest of the characters and then talk about some key musical moments and other themes that pop out at us. We're back. Listen here. Okay. So, Jean, I know that you were happy to see Delroy Lindo as Delta Slim.

[01:07:51] I just, you can't see me, but I'm throwing up my hands. It's Delroy. We're here. Delroy. They had me at Delroy when the film was announced. I was like, all right, Lindo's in and I'm in. That's it. I don't need to hear anything else. That's it. That's it. But I just, you know, Alicia, how I feel about Delroy. Yes. Well, I don't know. I never heard you talk about that. I love him too. I think he's one of the greatest character actors living. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[01:08:20] I love the man. I love everything that he's been in. I think he's one of the most underappreciated actors working for his entire career, not just lately. He's been underappreciated. And he just sinks his teeth into this role. Yeah. Right? So people who don't know that particular name, what movies have you most liked him in?

[01:08:53] Crooklyn. All right. Right? You brought up the five floods. That's the first one. Of course, I mean, you just said it. I think that is one of the most criminally slept on movies of the last 20 years. The five bloods. The five bloods. Yeah. Yeah. His portrayal, his, the entire cast is amazing.

[01:09:22] This is, I think this was Chadwick's last role. Wow. It may have been. I don't want to say that for certain, but. Or is it Ma Rainey's Black Bottom? It might have been one of those two, but the entire cast is, is, is great. But Delroy just, again, he just, there's something about him when he, when he's in character, it's just captivating to watch. Like his screen presence.

[01:09:52] He dominates. Yeah. His screen presence is just, yeah, it's just something else. And I really feel that, you know, as an actor of color, as a black man, as a Jamaican immigrant, he brings something to the table that, again, is familiar to me. Right. Because I've known Delroys. Literally. You know, I've known people whose uncle's name is Delroy. You know what I mean?

[01:10:21] So this is, this is somebody who I just really, really wish that more people would pay attention to when he's on screen and when he's cast in a role because he's an amazing actor. And again, proof positive. If, if you haven't seen the five bloods, then you, that's a, that's a film that deserves your attention. Now back to Delta Slim.

[01:10:50] He's just, I mean, you, you wrote in here, he could have gone to another, another club. He, he, he, he got, had to be talked out of taking his regular job. Yeah, his regular gig. And I'm like, oh man. And then, you know, to see how he got talked out of it, you know, with the promise of, you know, being shit faced, quite honestly. Right.

[01:11:18] Knowing that he, the character, he's an amazing musician, which is why they want him in the first place. And this whole, you know, going back to Sammy, right. And, and, and the church and blues and the church, the church at that time for me, you know, and blues were both speaking to the hardships that black folk were facing in this country.

[01:11:48] Right. Delta Slim is like Sammy's dad, the preacher from a different place. They're both coming into this world that they inhabit, this Jim Crow era, U.S. Trying to deal with the facts that, you know, at any time really. And this is scary to think of given our present state.

[01:12:16] But at any time, someone could have stopped them and taken them from their families. And disappeared them with no repercussion. Right. The blues and the church both were trying to deal with that reality for black people in this country.

[01:12:37] And it's amazing to see Delta and the preacher coming at this, this problem, this, this life issue that they're all, that everyone in their community is experiencing, but choosing to approach it differently. Mm-hmm. I can't say either, either one of them was wrong. Mm-hmm.

[01:13:01] I can't say that Delta's way via the blues was better than being in the church. Smoke definitely and Stack, they both were like of the opposite persuasion, right? They were like, one said, go to the church. The other one said, go to the blues. Yeah. Right? Right?

[01:13:22] So we have this competing almost narrative, but they're doing the same thing for black people, trying to give them hope, trying to give them, you know, some sort of, yeah, of healing and some sort of, you know, protection against the realities that they faced once you left the juke joint or once you left the church doors. Mm-hmm.

[01:13:49] Because while you were in the juke joint, while you were in church, you were safe. Mm-hmm. You were thought to be in a safe place. Let me ask, I got a question for both of you. I don't know, I don't really know how I feel about this. I see a definite parallel between the Irish temptation of the beer, right?

[01:14:16] You know, Delroy Lindo's character, what's his name in the movie? Forget his name. Delta Slim. Delta Slim. Delta Slim is not attracted to the money. Mm-hmm. He's got a good gig, but as soon as he tastes that cold Irish beer for the first time, he's like, oh, where do I show up, right? Mm-hmm.

[01:14:35] I don't, that is not, it's not an accident that there's also an Irish vampire out there with Irish, you know, Celtic traditional music that's tempting later in the film.

[01:14:53] And so if it's not an accident, should we feel bad for this portrayal of the Irish as sort of representative of the white folk and white temptation in this way? Um, no, because, well, okay, two things.

[01:15:12] First, that I think, you know, I already touched upon before where I think the reason that they were chosen is because this is a group that could find solidarity with the black communities just because they were also, um, uh, because they were also discriminated against in the U.S. and, and often poorer. And so often they were sharing communities and living spaces and things like that. Right.

[01:15:35] So I think, and I think it's like the same as we see with the Choctaw and the Irish, they had a special friendship, but then you have this insidious viper that gets in there. Um, but then, yeah, we'll talk about the vampire culture is complex and, and thinking back, I'm like, it has good points too, but we'll talk about it.

[01:15:55] But, um, yeah, I think, and the other thing is that, that about the Irish beer specifically, they also had Italian wine and there's these Easter eggs on Spotify. If you go to the Sinners movie page on Spotify and you look under the about, there's some images. They have the story that we quoted, um, that Woonmi Masakos said at the beginning, and they have images of that. And then if you keep scrolling, there's three news articles.

[01:16:24] One, we'll get back to the other two were about, one is about smoke and stack, robbing a bar. I'm sorry, robbing a bank in Chicago. This is clearly why they had, they had to flee. And the other, uh, suggests that they, there were tensions in Chicago between the Irish and Italian communities. Because again, the Italians were dealing with the same bullshit that the Irish were in that regard. And, um, they would, you know, you pit these, these communities that are treated as underdogs against each other. And that's literally what they did.

[01:16:53] They stole the booze from both those communities and blamed each other and then skedaddled back to Mississippi. So this is why they kept emphasizing, we have Irish beer and Italian wine. And yeah, we left them warring back there over it while we're down here drinking it in our juke joint. And, and we also have to remember too, the Irish and Italian in this country weren't considered white for a very long time. Right. That's true. Right. So they came into whiteness.

[01:17:23] They didn't get off the boat being white. Right. You know, right. This country forged that for, for them as a racial identity.

[01:17:33] Um, so I don't think, uh, having the vampire and the beer, the Irish is, uh, you know, like a slap in the face to the Irish people who live in Mississippi or live in the U S at the time, because they themselves were coming into the knowledge that there was this other.

[01:18:00] That we could be better than, that we could be treated better than that other. And that other was black folk. Right. So in contrast to where they were and where they were heading, um, yeah, it's, it's a very dynamic and very fluid situation that we find ourselves in, in the, you know, post world war one, pre world war two.

[01:18:28] Um, um, world, especially in the U S because things are changing. Yeah. Things are changing. Yeah. And I think that there's something to the proximity of both cultures. Like if you were living in the same, you know, in the same town, maybe in the same, you know, adjacent neighborhoods or something like that. Maybe you do look over the fence and wonder, like they have it better. What if maybe we just have a little bit better.

[01:18:57] There's in other words, there's a temptation to Irish culture that both the beer and the, the vampire hive mind represent. I wonder if there's some, I wonder if Coogler's playing with that. Like, is there, is there a specific attraction to the Irish music, the Irish beer that sort of has some sort of cultural meaning for this film? I mean, I think it's just the historical stuff that we've been saying.

[01:19:24] I think that's honestly where he's pulling from, especially given those Easter eggs he gave us as well. Interesting. But another thing, so moving on to the women. So we have, we have Mary, I find one of the most interesting characters, the roles that she plays in this film, played by Haley Steinfeld. And she's, she's basically, she stacks X, but she's married now because basically it was decided she, she grew up in the black community.

[01:19:50] She's technically one eighth black, which by the time made her legally black. So it made her legally illegal to marry a white man. Like just the fact that we have the one eighth. Yeah. Yeah. Like just the fact shows you like what, what the reality is of, of race in America. Uh-huh. Right. And what these folks were trying to get away from. Yeah.

[01:20:18] For however brief moment in time, what Delta Slim was trying to get away from, what Preacher's dad was trying to get away from. And just by the very fact that we have, she was one eighth black. Yeah. But she, but that was the community she grew up in. So she's like, I don't want to not be black. Um, which is, yeah, it's an, but then the entire time people keep telling her, but who don't know her, oh, you don't belong here. And she's like, like, hell I don't, you know?

[01:20:46] Um, but then at the same time, she is the one who takes it upon herself to be the bridge to the vampires who obviously she doesn't know they're vampires yet. But she's like, oh, go talk to those white folk and see what's up, you know? Because she's not, she may be one eighth black, but she is white passing, right? She looks white. And so she's treated white. Yeah. She, she looks white. She acts white. She married white. She is a white woman in this world.

[01:21:14] And where she is fraternizing with black folk, it could be looked down upon. And for those who may know her family history, they'll be like, oh, you know, well, she's really, you know, one of them at heart because of her family history. For people who don't know her, you know, it's just uncouth. Yeah. How could you, you know, be slumming around with the black folk? What's wrong with you? So she. And also puts Stack in danger. Oh, absolutely.

[01:21:43] Which he recognizes. Yeah. I like, I like that they're playing with that ambiguity. You know, she clearly doesn't feel fully at home in white culture. Right? She, I mean, she clearly is not fully accepted in the black community. She's a person on the margins of both worlds. She's liminal. Yeah. And that allows her to kind of play the role as the bridge between the vampires. Mm-hmm.

[01:22:11] You know, she knows what it's like to be maybe like almost not let in the juke joint. Right. Right? So she has a little bit of like compassion for these, you know, these corny people, you know, sitting on the log out there. So I do think that there's something about her that you're supposed to be a little bit suspicious of. Right? Mm-hmm. Like, who's going to let the vampires in? Right.

[01:22:41] Right? You know, she's probably the lead candidate for this. Right? Because she's a little bit like Jon Snow. Is he like Jon? Like, I always go back to Game of Thrones. Mm-hmm. A little bit like Jon Snow. Not quite at home in any world. And so who's going to be the bridge to the wildlings? It's going to be Jon Snow. Right? He's the creature of duality. Right? So in this case, in this movie, Mary is the creature of duality. Mm-hmm.

[01:23:08] But I also think that, you know, in that scene particularly, when she goes out to talk to Remick and the two others, she's the only one who could have done that. Right. Well, I mean, yeah. The Black folk couldn't have very well done that without risking some sort of negative repercussion. She's like, let me go talk to them because she knows her whiteness has a form of protection. Mm-hmm.

[01:23:37] When reality is, that shit ain't had no protection at all. Obviously not. Yeah. It's going to be easier for her to code switch, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's easier. I don't even think it's code switching, though. That's my point. Because in this world, she is not, she doesn't go back and forth between being Black and being white. She's white in this world. Let me, all right, let me press, let me press you a little bit on that. So early on when you meet her at the, at the train scene, everyone's kind of freaked out

[01:24:06] because Stack's talking with this white woman, right? Yes. And then once they hear the way she talks, I think Sammy comes and says, I don't think she's white. Yeah. So I thought that was an interesting, that was a little interesting clue to, all right, maybe, maybe there's more to her than meets the eye. There's definitely more to her. Definitely. I agree with that. But I think overwhelmingly for me in my eyes, when I watched those scenes play out,

[01:24:34] it wasn't from the viewpoint of a Black woman switching. Mm-hmm. It was from the viewpoint of here's this white woman who has Black friends. Right. Interesting. Which is two different things. Interesting note I just learned is that they used part of Haley Steinfeld's own story there. So her mother's father really is half Black. And, but she obviously grew up in a very different time and where she was treated as white her whole life.

[01:25:03] But then still, you know, that side of the family is telling her thing. So it's interesting to hear her talk about this with the rest of the cast in interviews. Interesting. And how Ryan Coogler, I don't know how the casting of her worked, but he was definitely like, no, let's drill down on this experience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I thought she was great.

[01:25:27] I thought she, I mean, when she makes the shift, that was one of the most sort of horror moments, horrific moments of the film. Mm-hmm. You know, and I think you mentioned that earlier, like the drool scene. Yeah. Like maybe you're drooling, right? And then she's like, spit in my mouth? No. Yeah. No, not my kink. Not my kink. If it's yours, I'm sorry. Go for it.

[01:25:57] So, yeah, no, I think it's, that's interesting to me because you could say, well, of course we need one sort of representative, like white woman in this show to make sure that we're being representative. Mm-hmm. Nope. Because she's the bridge to the vampires, right? Yeah. Yeah.

[01:26:21] But I think toward the end in the post-credit scene, you have this little view that, okay, maybe the vampires have a point. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe there's, maybe there is some kind of virtue to the, to the sort of the hive mind that brings a certain sense of community that you are never going to get in this world. All right.

[01:26:44] I'm going to put a pin in that thought for now because we're going to get into that when we talk about the music scenes because there is a scene where that really came to life for me. And then at the end, the credit scene too. Yeah. I'm excited to talk about the music. It's such a big part of this film. Okay. All right. Well, let's, let's talk quickly about the, the other characters. So we have Annie smokes, estranged wife played by when we Misaka. We've already mentioned her. We didn't mention they lost a child. And so we have that lovely scene where they're reunited as a family at the end, but that's really driving her.

[01:27:14] She's the one who's a roots worker slash hoodoo practitioner. Anthony, what did you think about the blend of religions here? So we have Christianity in the one hand, we have hoodoo in the other, but in reality, people are taken a little from column A, a little from column B. Well, that's, that is American religion, right? Yep.

[01:27:35] And that, you know, in this particular, like, I don't know this particular part of the world and I'm not, I'm not, I'm not studied in American religion as well as I could be. But this is exactly what you would expect in this time and place. And sometimes you went to the, you went to vote on, and sometimes you went to the faith healer and, you know, sometimes you did both. You know, when one wasn't working, you would go to the other one.

[01:28:05] And this is a fundamentally different experience than white Christians in America at the time. And so I love that they bring that particular part into the film. And I thought it was interesting that who's going to actually be your guide against the vampires? Mm-hmm. It's not actually going to be the preacher. So this is going to make this different than from Ducks Till Dawn, right? Mm-hmm. It's not going to be the cross that has power of the vampires.

[01:28:35] In this particular case, the expert on how to defeat the vampires, because the Choctaw have sort of left the conversation, is going to be this particular root worker. And she knows about the garlic. She knows about, you know, she knows about the mojo. She's got it all, you know, she knows the lore to these. She even knows, like, this is the worst. The vampires are the worst kind.

[01:29:03] Can't just kill them all by killing the leader. You've got to kill them all individually. So she's important for the story in that way. But she's also important for sort of like a cultural touchstone. Yeah. I would also say, so it's called Sinners. And they're all sinners in a way. Like the Perlene completes the trio of love interests for this. She's Sammy's lady for the night, but she's actually married, played by Jane Lawson.

[01:29:31] And she sings the Pale Pale Moon performance. She's there as a singer, but she's there to have some fun, too. And out of all of the characters, like she's one, I'm like, oh, yeah, she's a sinner. She's cheating on her husband, sure, by the definition of Christian sinners that qualifies. I cannot think of a way in which Annie is a sinner. She's the most compassionate one. She's the one who insists because at one point people are trying to pay in the bar with these wooden coins. And that's what they're paid with on the plantations.

[01:30:00] And the idea is that it limits their ability to spend that money. And she's like, no, we've got to take that. You know, even if we can't spend it elsewhere, we've got to take that. These are our people. And she's the one, controversially in my mind, who chooses death over immortality when she is turned. And she makes smoke her husband, her love, kill her. Would you guys, if you were turned, would you make the person who loved you kill you?

[01:30:33] Oh, boy. I don't think so. I think I probably chose being a vamp for a minute before I decided what to do. I'm not going to lie. I already told you I wanted to go as Blackula. This is what it is. I mean, I would be like, no, stop. I'm going to go dance with vampires. Let's do a jig.

[01:31:01] I do think that there's something about this movie is sort of makes you want to question whether or not the vampires might have a point. Right. Yeah. Now, if it's like the Borg, because early on it feels a little bit like the Borg. Mm-hmm. Where it's like, okay, now my memories are yours and you get to control me, Mr. Fifth Century Irish Black Vampire.

[01:31:27] That has no attraction to me. I don't want to be a stooge to Remick. But once Remick is gone, you can kind of see that maybe you can have some fun in Chicago in your Bill Cosby sweater.

[01:31:52] And there's a little bit of attraction to Scandal Noted. I'm just noting on the fashion. I'm not commenting on the lifestyle. It's the coogee sweater. It's all good. Made famous by Biggie Small. Let's see. So, I don't know. I think this movie is meant to make you wonder whether the sinners have made the better choice.

[01:32:16] I don't think that this movie is necessarily drawing a connection between the good people in the movie are the non-sinners and the bad people in the movie are the sinners. I think this movie is meant to make you believe that they're all sinners. Mm-hmm. And you have to live in that gray area and you have to choose how you're going to live in the gray area. But what's Annie's sin? What sin did Annie commit?

[01:32:42] She's at the devil's gathering with everyone else. Right? All right. And she's also not Christian in the way that Preacher's dad is Christian. She's doing this whole other sort of religion, which by its very nature is sinful. Yeah. Yeah. From the rules of this one particular mythology. Right. She falls into this particular category.

[01:33:12] Right. Right. And we should say people probably wonder what's the difference between voodoo and hoodoo. I think of it as sort of like voodoo comes from Africa and that is a particular thing. And then hoodoo is an American invention of sorts that, as Anthony was saying, it kind of blends together this voodoo with other American influences. Yeah.

[01:33:35] But I think real quick on that point, just they are both born from the merging of African and European religion. Okay. So, you know, in the Caribbean and Haiti, which is what I'm most familiar with. Yeah.

[01:33:56] It's the iconography, the imagery, all of these things that you find in a church, in a Catholic church, particularly, you would find in a shrine. Right? Right. So hoodoo, yes, it's an American version of that, but at their core, they're both, in my view, maybe I'm wrong, but- A blend.

[01:34:21] It's a merging of African tradition and the religion that was forced upon African slaves. Okay. Okay. So I like, it's very interesting to these connections because I just found out today for the very first time that, you know, I was like, okay, when did, traditionally, when does St. Patrick bring Christianity to Ireland? And I just wanted to make sure I had that right.

[01:34:47] And I was doing a little search, like, oh my gosh, St. Patrick is also the patron saint of Nigeria. Yeah. I had no idea. I didn't know that. Okay. And I'm like, oh, I got to learn more about this. But it just kind of goes to show you, you know, these things don't just merge in America. These things merge all over the place. Right. Right. All right. All right. Just wrapping up the characters, got to shout out Cornbread. I don't, they play by Omar Miller.

[01:35:13] I don't have much to say about him, but he gave us insight into the sharecropper society in which they're living. And he was great comic relief. And I love to see him on screen. Although he, as soon as he turned, he was like, he was their creature, but I guess same for Mary. Yeah. Yeah. For everyone who turned really. Yeah. Yeah. And then the other, before we get into the vampires themselves, the other two that we have to talk about is Grace and Bo Chow played by Legion Lee, who I know from the movie Babylon.

[01:35:43] And Bo was played by Yao. And this is sort of showing about the role that Chinese immigrants, again, very much not white, very poorly treated. The way that the role they played in this Southern society. And what I noticed, I don't know if you guys notice this too, but so they had, Bo was working on the black side of the shop and Grace was working on the white side of the shop.

[01:36:10] And so they both engaged in different forms of code switching in terms of how they talk to their customers versus when they speak to each other in Chinese. Yeah. Yeah. They have the daughter, Lisa, Helena, who, who was threatened. I loved when the remit came to the door. She's like, the devil spoke Chinese.

[01:36:32] But because her daughter's threatened and we never find out what happened to her daughter, because I guess she's an orphan now, but Grace breaks and she invites them all in. Do you blame her? I was wondering about that. I, cause my son, I watched it with my son and afterwards, like, how did all the vampires get in those big double doors of the barn? And I was like, I missed that part. She, she made the, the specific invitation.

[01:37:01] She, yeah, she lit up like a Molotov cocktail in a bottle. And she's like, she was like, they're going after my baby. And everyone's like, don't go out there. Cause her husband's already been turned at this point. And she's like, no, fuck it. Come on in. Let's have it out. You know, we're going to take you all out. All right. I definitely missed that one. Yeah. I don't know why she had to invite them in though. Yeah. Um, at first I was kind of like, ah, but then I'm kind of like, no, I'm not down with it. I'm not, I blame her.

[01:37:31] I blame her for everything. I'm not down with it. Like, and the thing is she went directly to her husband to take him out. Right. That's, that's who she focused her. Like she could have done that without inviting the entire crew inside. Right. So I do actually, I do blame her for inviting them in. Um, simply because yes, I, I get it.

[01:37:57] The urge is to save your child at, for consequences be damned. Right. That's what you want to do. It's like an imperative. It's almost, you know, super, supernatural and it, and it's, you know, origin. You just feel it, but she could have gone about it in a different way. And I felt, yeah, she did say, fuck the consequences. I don't care who else has to go, but I'm doing this to try to protect my daughter.

[01:38:26] And I blame her and her short sightedness. I do. Yeah. It would be great. I mean, strategically. How about inviting them in one at a time? Right. But, uh, less cinematic to do it that way. Less cinematic. Definitely. Hmm. Um, okay. So that brings us to the bad guys. So first of all, we can all agree unequivocally.

[01:38:56] Hogwood, the local KKK leader who sold them that what used to be a place where they would like, I think torture slaves and things like that. So, um, he's a, he's an unequivocal bad guy. Fair. And, and, uh, that was really satisfying. I know some people are like, Oh, it didn't need that extra scene with smoke taking him. Oh no, I definitely needed it. I needed that. That was cathartic. I needed that for sure. Exactly. For sure.

[01:39:21] And then we have, uh, Bert and Joan, Peter and Lola, uh, Peter, uh, Drymanis and Lola Kirk, who first of all, props to all of the musical skills of everyone in this cast, but that goes without saying, but they become better people as vampires. I feel like, and that's one of the things that makes this complex. They're going to kill people, but at least it's for like more slightly altruistic reasons. Like they're like, we can be happy together. Not just, I'm going to kill you because you're different.

[01:39:49] They're like, I'm going to kill you because we're all the same. So, um, and their leader of course is, is Remick played by Jack O'Connell who just, oh, just Bravo. That was another performance and a half. Uh, he says, I want to see my people again. I'm trapped here, but your gifts can bring them to me. So he wants to use Sammy for this. And he says, centuries ago, the Lord's, uh, yeah, it's people, they're doing the whole Lord's prayer thing. Like you said, and it's not affecting me.

[01:40:17] He said long ago, the man who stole my father's land forced these words upon us. I hated those men, but the words still bring me comfort, which I find really interesting taking something, a culture oppresses you and you still take something from there and be like, you know, I like that part. Which is what black folk have done in this country. Exactly. In this hemisphere for 500 years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, you said you were just double checking Anthony, but fifth century, right? For St. Patrick.

[01:40:46] I mean, that's the traditional, uh, you know, date, you know, these, these dates historically you get a little bit, uh, murky when you, when you go all the way that you, when you go that far back, everything's a little bit murkier. Right. But tradition says, yeah, it's, it's a, that's, this is St. Patrick. And, uh, um, so it's interesting because, you know, the, the, the Irish, the Irish have

[01:41:16] always kind of been, um, had a more calm, complicated relationship to other European countries and especially the British. Right. Um, also very complicated relationship with Catholicism. Um, all, and so it's interesting to bring that, that culture in conversation with American

[01:41:43] culture in this film, I still don't know what to think about it, but, uh, I think if, you know, clearly it's an interesting, it would be fascinating prequel. If you want, this is why we need, yeah, the prequel and the pre prequel. So, yeah, no, I, I think that's very interesting stuff. Yeah. Um, and the Irish potato famine to set the timeline happened between nine, 1845 and 1852.

[01:42:12] And that's when the Irish and Choctaw formed this first initial solidarity. And so the other Easter egg from that Spotify about thing is, um, the third news article is in 1911 talking about a wreckage of a ship called the Celtic hair, which, uh, and there's a sole survivor scene loping off. So this is clearly a reference from the Dracula novel and movies and the, and the notes for

[01:42:40] Arthur, um, last voyage of the Demeter is entirely about that boat trip from where a boat just ends up, uh, wrecking at the end with everyone on it dead. I do have questions though. Why are they all dead? Why didn't he like, he was too hungry, I guess to let them join his coven instead. Yeah. Maybe they were English. Yeah. I think, okay. This is an interesting question about the movie.

[01:43:07] Like, um, you could say like the Borg, the Borg just wants to assimilate as many cultures as possible. Right. Mm hmm. I don't know if that's remix motivation. He definitely wants to convert the folk, but mostly he wants Sammy. Right. Right. So maybe he's like, I'm going to convert you all so I can get to Sammy. Yes. But if it was just Sammy, would he care about the rest of them? Maybe the rest of these, these people are just food. Right. So I don't know. Yeah.

[01:43:37] All right. But this brings us, it's as a natural transition into the key musical scenes, because why does he want Sammy? Um, I think it was a really interesting choice that Ryan Coogler made. To choose this completely unknown face. This is his first thing. Yeah. And then they do that scene in the car in the beginning when he's with stack and they're like going out to arrange things and stuff. And first of all, I love the cinematography of that scene in the car. Just beautiful.

[01:44:05] The long shots in the way, the framing and everything. But then he's like, all right, here, that guitar you've been carrying around, play it. And even me in the theater, he plays traveling. Uh, this is our first key song moment. I said immediately out loud, woo. As soon as he started playing, like, oh damn, he's good actually. Wow. Wow. But, um, and then we get, yeah, we get, we meet, uh, we already talked about the train

[01:44:31] station scene where we hear Delta Slim's patch and we get more of a sense of like, this guy's good, but Sammy's transcendental. And that brings us to the movie, to the scene in the film that everyone talks about when he plays, I lied to you. You heard a clip from that at the beginning of this episode and opens the rift. And we get a mashup. They literally show it transcending time and space.

[01:44:58] And we get, um, we, we get from, from tribal Africans to Jimi Hendrix types to hip hop to also since the, the chows are there to, uh, Chinese heritage, reflecting their culture, just all dancing together in this moment in the pub. And that's when we hear that, uh, yeah, that, that famous quote that we heard. Yeah.

[01:45:25] Almost an instant, instantly important moment in film that there was just, I, I, I kind of alluded this earlier, but when that, when that happened, it was just like chills up my spine. And I'm just thinking like, this is why we go to the movies. This is so amazing. Like there was a, there was just this moment when I thought this is different.

[01:45:52] This is, this is an important moment in film history. And I didn't know that honestly, I don't get that feeling very often, but I, I just had a sense that this is going to be a really important film because of this particular thing. And I, it wasn't like, I didn't like the film up until that point, right. But I just went to this other level. I didn't know existed. Yeah.

[01:46:18] And, you know, in the notes, when you, when you, you write Robert Johnson, Papa, you know, directly Sammy is Papa Legba in that moment, you know, because Papa Legba in voodoo, he's the first law that you petition, right. Because he is the keeper of the crossroads. He is the person who facilitates communication. Hmm.

[01:46:47] Between us and the spirit world. And in that moment, you know, I didn't realize it. I wasn't thinking of that, but I'm thinking back now and realizing in that moment, that is exactly what Sammy is doing. Right. It's not just simply, you know, breaking time and space.

[01:47:09] He is the tether that is allowing us to talk to the spirits that have come before us, that have come before us, and that are going to come after us. Like he is that, that figure. And I didn't think about that as I was watching the movie. But as we're talking in this conversation, it's becoming clearer to me that that is exactly

[01:47:38] what is going on here. And I don't know if, you know, voodoo practitioners view it in the same way, but in the way that I know, you know, that side of the religion, it's really something remarkable that they were able to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Just good stuff, man. Fantastic. And Perlene's boots are really important as well.

[01:48:08] Right. She's the performer. Yes. And it's her sort of jumping and stomping that creates. Percussion. That percussive element, which is crucial to make that scene work. Right. Drums. Because, because that you don't have a drummer. The drummers are her, the drums are her boots. Yes. And it's important for Coogler to be able to cut the scenes using that rhythm.

[01:48:36] It's also important for that particular thump to connect it to hip hop, to connect it to like all these other traditions. So in other words, Sammy's crucial, right? Sammy's music is crucial. But in order to make the scene work, you need Perlene's boots. Yeah. You need those drums. Yeah. Those drums, you know, they give us, you know, meaning. They tell us what's coming. They tell us what to expect.

[01:49:06] Communicating when words could very likely give you a swift end. Right. Those drums carried messages back and forth from slaves to revolutionaries. And it's just, yeah, this, I mean, you know, you think about the things that Coogler is doing in this film. And the more you think about it and the more you dig into it, the more amazing it becomes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:49:34] You bring up the drums and that, you know, I'm going to make a vast general statement because Native American tribes have as little in common linguistically and culturally as, you know, Pan-African nations. But I would say overall, you can say. Yeah. Drums. Both. Musically driven by drums. Absolutely. And even in, you look back on European history, on the battlefield, you have a drummer, right?

[01:50:04] Sure. Marching. Who's giving signals, you know, those notes that he's hitting, they're relaying messages to soldiers, you know, to commanders, to where people should go. It's not just simply to march in tune and get into a rhythm. You know, there was a method to it. But so, yeah, just really. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So the next two scenes we're going to talk about together.

[01:50:33] So we have the scenes where the vamps want to get in and they sing Pick Poor Robin Clean, which I had to look up because it sounds so sinister, but it is, it's, it was an African-American gambling song or it still is rather. So this is one that they're like, see, we know your music, but we're doing it in a very like Celtic white way. Um, and then we have also the scene where we've already talked about a bit where Mary goes to chat up the white people and that one they're singing, will you go Lassie go?

[01:51:00] And this is the first moment where you're like, oh wait, this guy isn't from North Carolina. He's starting to sound awfully Irish. But the interesting thing about both of these scenes to me is the, um, I, I had such conflicted feelings. Like when they are coming to the door, I'm like, I don't want them to be excluded for being white. But at the same time, I do already know they are literally vampires. So don't let them in, but also like, don't not let them in.

[01:51:25] And, and, you know, it's, it's, it awakened such complex feelings in me. And this is one of the things that I, I mean, especially being a white woman over here. Um, this is what I was thinking about the most afterward. I said, don't let those white folk in. Do not let them in under any circumstances. Unequivocally vampire or not, send their ass home.

[01:51:53] Like, let us, let us have this. Right. And I thought that there's a really important, there's a, a really important conversation that maybe it's, I think it's smoke maybe makes this point. And he's like, look, you let them in. Maybe it's okay for a little bit. But then if one, if one of our guys looks at one of their girls, just a little bit too long, this whole thing ends, this whole thing ends.

[01:52:23] All it takes is one tiny infraction. And this little cultural experiment is over. And so, I mean, the smoke is just a voice of wisdom in that moment. He, he doesn't know they're vampires at that point. Right. But, but there's the danger. There's the recognized danger. Right. Yeah. But then on the other hand, so they are quite, they're being kind, even as they're killing people.

[01:52:51] And then you have this, the other biggest musical moment, I would say of the whole thing is when they, you see outside. And so all the bar patrons of it, they're like, shut it down, send everyone out because, because smoke's been attacked by his girlfriend and, or sorry, stack's been attacked by his girlfriend. And, you know, obviously we're dealing with a dead brother situation here. Everybody go home, which immediately feeds them to all the vampires. So now they're all the massive coven around Remick.

[01:53:19] And you look outside and it's all these different black people and, and the white people and, and Bo and everything. And they're all dancing an Irish jig to the Rocky road to Dublin. And he says, I'm going to make you feel the sweet pain of death together. We will make beautiful music. And I'm like, you know what? I'm, I'm, I'm buying that sales pitch personally. This looks great.

[01:53:48] It looks great, but it, you know, I mean, look, look, I think that there's, there's a sense in which Remick is a liar, right? You know, that's what we, that's what we learned. You know, when we're little kids in church, the devil's a liar. Wait, but did he lie? What did he lie about? He was, well, he lied about North Carolina. Yeah. I think he's lying to say that this is all just a big family out here. I think he's controlling the group. You know, he says, I've got his memories now.

[01:54:18] And I think what's happening with Remick is that it's, it looks like freedom, but it's not. Remick is controlling these people. And I, I, I almost view like all of the different voices I hear from the vampires. I hear a little bit of Remick in their voices. And I don't think it's until Remick's dead that you can actually be attracted to that life because, uh, because Remick is so powerful.

[01:54:44] He's not going to let you really have freedom in the undead community, I suppose. Right. And he's, he's living with his own centuries old hurts because, um, under British colonization, it was out, uh, dancing was outlawed in Ireland. So it's an act of defiance too, doing this jig together. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So, and I do think that he was absolutely controlling them in that moment. I don't think. Yeah.

[01:55:13] They all know how to dance a jig. They share. Well, the same way he knew how to speak Chinese. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Because he's got that memory now. Right. So it was all Remick and, you know, his pitch, if we could talk about for a minute, his pitch about, you know, being one big happy family and yada, yada, yada. And, you know, you don't have to worry about that, you know, all the racist shit.

[01:55:41] And, you know, I'm not like that, you know, dude is diabolical because at the end of the day, the only reason that he didn't want to, that he didn't kill them all, right, was because he wanted Sammy. That's right. And why did he want Sammy? So he can get my people over here. Sure. So he could steal Sammy's art.

[01:56:11] Yeah. They weren't his people. He made that distinction very clear. He wanted Sammy to bring my people over here. Yeah. He was like, we're in his people. That's not his family. That's not what he was talking about. He was like, listen, I got a record label. If you just come over here and take this gold, you can bring your art into my record label. Right.

[01:56:41] You can't escape it. You can't escape the allegories. And we'll just make it a little more Irish. Yeah. And like you said, when they're singing, pick poor Robin clean, you can't escape what rock and roll music did to black musicians in the 50s, right? Would take their songs by black musicians, put a white face on it, change the tempo. You get Elvis, right? Yeah. Right. Or you go to the 60s. Elvis was the best in both worlds because he could actually do it, but they did a lot

[01:57:10] of half-assery. Right. And then you go to the 60s where the majority of English rock bands went to churches. Mick Jagger famously sat in and watched Aretha Franklin sing in the church. Well, Mick Jagger has said forthrightly, he said, when I saw James Brown, I thought I got to do everything he's doing. Everything he's doing. Yeah. Right.

[01:57:38] And, you know, so there's a history of appropriation by white folk in this country towards black culture, black music, black film, black art, black whatever, literature. There's a history of that. That is undeniably what Kugler is hinting at in these scenes. Yeah. Right. The appropriation of black culture.

[01:58:05] And there's nothing good that could come out of that for black folk. Because if you go down with Remick, then where are you headed? Yeah. I mean, yeah, this is definitely an aspect of selling your soul involved in it. And I absolutely see the complexities in it, but I find it interesting that it isn't that

[01:58:32] there are like glimmers of silver linings in that situation, too. Which. OK. So this brings us to that first credit scene, which for me, honestly, despite everything else we've talked about, the first credit scene kind of made the movie like it just really tied it all together and added an extra layer of emotion for me where correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we we find much older Sammy and he is I believe he's singing the same song

[01:58:59] traveling that he was singing in the car to stack. Oh, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. And then so stack and Mary show up and they're vampires now in their 90s clothes. And stack says, I guess I was the one person he just couldn't kill. He made me a promise to stay away from you, let you live out your life. And the fact that stack did that says that he does have maybe he didn't under Remick, but now he has some sort of autonomy where he can make a decision of who he kills or not, because he's just. Yeah.

[01:59:30] Absolutely. They had to kill Remick in order for stack. To be free. Yeah. Yeah. The person who is offering you freedom, he's saying, this is the freedom I'm going to give you in order to be free. My terms. Yeah. He had to die. Yeah. Yeah. But the part that really made the movie for me is what Sammy says. So he offers a turn to Sammy and Sammy's like, no. No. But then he says, you know something? Maybe once a week I wake up paralyzed reliving that night.

[01:59:58] But before the sun went down, I think that was the best day of my life. Was it like that for you? And stack says, no doubt about it. Last time I've seen my brother. Last time I seen the sun just for a few hours. I was free. And that's the juke joint. Wow. Just for a few hours, you're free. But then this is my question for you guys. Do you think vampire stack and marry in the 90s? Are they happy? They're lonely.

[02:00:28] And I think that this is kind of an interesting part of the vampire mythology. In a sense, you continue to live. And in a sense, your life is long, long, long dead. And you have to live in that middle state, that middle world where you might make some friends. But how do you view those friends as anything other than butterflies?

[02:00:56] Who are going to be here today and gone tomorrow? You're going to outlive everyone. And how is that not a curse eventually? They could turn more people. I can't. Alicia's on board with the vampire. Spread the disease. Alicia's on board. But the vampire mythology is pretty consistent. It's always a curse. And to me, that's the most haunting part of the curse. Right?

[02:01:26] Yeah. But yeah, and I love the very last credit scene at the end of the credits calls back to this whole thing where we see young Sammy again. His father had asked him to play this little light of mine, which is an important spiritual, obviously. And it's a call back to the opening. So just he was never going to be that guy who took that deal. He was still his father's son, despite also being a blues musician. Yeah. That's it. All right.

[02:01:56] We've gone two hours talking about this film, but there's so much to say. Do you guys have any final thoughts on the movie? I'm just again a spectacular film I urge those of you who haven't seen it to try to see it even if you don't see it in the theaters you can and you wait till it comes out on streaming I think it's worth it to watch the film no matter where you go

[02:02:25] no matter how you do it I just think this is an American masterpiece and we should treat it as such because we rarely get to say those things about films especially in the current environment that we're in by an American auteur and this is an important distinction because this is a thoroughly thoroughly American movie and it's

[02:02:56] yeah and it's just great and it's a enjoy this moment this is it's still a singular achievement you know 20 years we may look back at you know seven seven different you know Apple series and prequels and sequels and you think right it wasn't as good as that moment right now it's perfect right in this moment the canon's perfect

[02:03:26] yeah yeah all right listeners at home if you enjoyed this discussion then please share it with anyone else you think would enjoy these thoughts about the film and tell everyone you know to see it you can also leave a nice review wherever you're listening that's always a huge amount of help and we appreciate any feedback you might have you can send that to lorehounds at the lorehounds.com or you can jump into our discord server we do have a chat under movies set up for

[02:03:56] to talk about this film in particular and chats for basically everything else we're covering and beyond well you'll find the link tree in the show notes for all that coming soon I guess the next film one shot's gonna be Thunderbolts which I'm excited about yeah we're also the reason why these movies are taking a little bit longer right now to get out is that we're doing weekly Andor coverage where we have coverage for every episode of Andor despite the fact they're dropping three a week so that's been crazy

[02:04:25] John and David are doing the Last of Us weekly coverage as well John and I are covering Doctor Who and probably in May we're gonna be covering Murderbots we're kind of drifting that direction that's what I heard that's what I heard it's kind of going that way John and I both started reading some stuff so yeah if that's not enough content for you we have all the extras for Supercast and Patreon subscribers where you get ad-free access to our podcast plus bonus content

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[02:05:25] Martin's novellas upon which The Night of the Step Kingdom will be based Nice We're just moving through the second novella The Sworn Sword at present so and we'll be jumping into the mystery night in a few weeks and then once we wrap that up we'll go back to Properly Howard with a season of Kevin Bacon so we're looking forward to that Footloose now we'll see

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[02:06:54] Asajj Ventress alright we're gonna shout out the final thank yous I've pulled out of the rhythmic folder we'll see what this is it is Chunkura alright thank you to our discord server boosters Aaron K Tiller the thriller dork the ninjas doove 71 Athena Adjalea Tina Lestu Nancy M Ghost Pardition and Radioactive Richard thank you so much to all of our subscribers to our lore hounds but most of all to our lore masters our

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