David and Loremaster Bryan8063 continue their special coverage of the PBS Ken Burns miniseries The American Revolution with immediate reactions to the fourth episode. The discussion explores the delicate balance Burns maintains between chronology and thematic storytelling, drawing from Brian's conversation with his son about AP history.
The hosts examine Washington's strategic genius of "winning by not losing" through tactical retreats, the brutal civil war dimension between loyalists and patriots, and the difficulties of managing an empire without instantaneous communication. They address the painful irony of Native American communities who fought for the patriots only to be driven from their lands, and how guerrilla warfare tactics throughout history demonstrate that determined forces can prevail through attrition rather than decisive victories.
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00:01 --> 00:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the Lorehounds and our special coverage of the PBS mini series, The American Revolution.
00:07 --> 00:12 [SPEAKER_02]: This is our podcast for episode four, conquer by a draw game.
00:12 --> 00:20 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm David, I'm one of the main hosts of the Lorehounds and with me for this special project is Loremaster, Brian 863, Brian Heiden.
00:21 --> 00:23 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm good, I'm good, and how are you, David?
00:23 --> 00:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Good, you're excited for today.
00:24 --> 00:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I am.
00:25 --> 00:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I am.
00:26 --> 00:28 [SPEAKER_01]: We're in a groove, we're doing it.
00:28 --> 00:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Sounds good.
00:28 --> 00:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
00:29 --> 00:32 [SPEAKER_01]: You're doing the podcast we've been doing the podcast thing.
00:32 --> 00:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
00:33 --> 00:37 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm making the donuts as we might have said from one of the time to make the podcast.
00:37 --> 00:37 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
00:38 --> 00:41 [SPEAKER_02]: So we're into episode four here.
00:41 --> 00:45 [SPEAKER_02]: These podcasts are a little bit more reaction than analysis.
00:45 --> 00:55 [SPEAKER_02]: So we're kind of getting them out the door a little bit faster and doing a little less polish and all that kind of stuff, but just for the sake of maintaining momentum.
00:56 --> 01:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Feedback email address is lorehounds at the lorehounds.com.
01:00 --> 01:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Once we conclude the series,
01:02 --> 01:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Brian and I are going to get together for a special wrap-up podcast with Marilyn Arpequilla.
01:08 --> 01:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Marilyn is our favorite Tolkien scholar, a research librarian and avid history buff.
01:14 --> 01:18 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll let everyone know when we schedule that a little bit later.
01:18 --> 01:23 [SPEAKER_02]: So I know people are still catching up with the series and they're watching at different rates.
01:23 --> 01:28 [SPEAKER_02]: So we may push that out a little bit and then definitely keep sending in your feedback though.
01:28 --> 01:31 [SPEAKER_02]: We don't have any emails today.
01:31 --> 01:32 [SPEAKER_02]: but it was just a minor note.
01:33 --> 01:34 [SPEAKER_02]: But send in your stuff.
01:35 --> 01:36 [SPEAKER_02]: We've got a ton of stuff on the discord.
01:36 --> 01:38 [SPEAKER_02]: People are chatting away there.
01:38 --> 01:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I saw Marilyn was posting long, and it's about stuff today, which is great and a bunch of other people are in there as well.
01:45 --> 02:01 [SPEAKER_02]: So if you're listening to this and you haven't been to the discord, we invite you, you're welcome, it's a great place, there's a great community, it's very supportive, it's very to well moderated to make sure that, you know, but we really just don't have any problems because everybody in our communities
02:01 --> 02:04 [SPEAKER_02]: So, are you going to say something, Brian?
02:05 --> 02:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I totally agree with all of us up here kind of moderate, but you're one of our official moderators.
02:15 --> 02:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
02:16 --> 02:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it's an easy job, thankfully, knocking on wood, and it's just a great community to really dig into the details.
02:23 --> 02:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.
02:24 --> 02:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Our virtual, a water cooler, as always, subscribe if you want to support the community and support more podcasts like this.
02:32 --> 02:34 [SPEAKER_02]: We could use your subscription dollars.
02:34 --> 02:38 [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people could use the subscription dollars, PBS could use your subscription dollars.
02:39 --> 02:43 [SPEAKER_02]: We understand that it's a weird time right now, and if it works for you, great.
02:43 --> 02:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And if it's not, then you're still welcome.
02:47 --> 02:56 [SPEAKER_02]: always, if you have something nice to say, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts that helps promote the podcast overall, so more like-minded individuals can find this.
02:58 --> 03:02 [SPEAKER_02]: We also have a network in a whole bunch of affiliate podcasts, affiliated podcasts.
03:02 --> 03:17 [SPEAKER_02]: There are links for all of that, the feedback, the discord, everything in the show notes, there's a link, tree link, you go to that, it's a little webpage, and it has all the various connections to our network and
03:17 --> 03:19 [SPEAKER_02]: As a reminder, Brian is a professional historian.
03:20 --> 03:22 [SPEAKER_02]: You can hear more about his background in episode one.
03:22 --> 03:28 [SPEAKER_02]: And we're using this little template thing to help us provide structure each episode.
03:28 --> 03:32 [SPEAKER_02]: So that we're not just splashing around in the pond of history.
03:32 --> 03:33 [SPEAKER_02]: So.
03:33 --> 03:47 [SPEAKER_02]: As we have fallen into our little pattern here, we're kind of starting with reflections back as to where we have come from and where we are now, Brian, what are your reflection thoughts at this stage?
03:47 --> 03:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
03:49 --> 03:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So I had this great conversation with my son.
03:56 --> 03:59 [SPEAKER_01]: He is an high school.
04:00 --> 04:02 [SPEAKER_01]: He's taking AP history.
04:03 --> 04:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And last year, he took AP European history.
04:06 --> 04:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And he made a very interesting observation that there is a difference between
04:14 --> 04:17 [SPEAKER_01]: big themes in history and just the chronology.
04:17 --> 04:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was a wonderful, really a wonderful observation because it helped me think about what is happening here with the Ken Burns.
04:26 --> 04:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, because we're seeing this tension, it's almost like a tension, right, as an editor, a filmmaker, we talked last part about how many, we wonder how many things get to the floor,
04:43 --> 04:55 [SPEAKER_01]: the balance of, you've got to do the chronology and we're seeing a lot of heavy chronology in these episodes and then moving forward, but you also have to capture the big themes.
04:56 --> 05:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And I can't imagine Ken Burns and his team trying to do that.
05:01 --> 05:05 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a delicate balance.
05:06 --> 05:09 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's, of course, the reason we're having the laureounds, right?
05:09 --> 05:11 [SPEAKER_01]: We're one of our jobs, right?
05:11 --> 05:14 [SPEAKER_01]: It's too pull out the big themes for our listeners.
05:14 --> 05:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's a, that's a little plug for us, of course.
05:19 --> 05:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
05:20 --> 05:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's also the listeners, I want to say part of what's implicit in the relationship.
05:27 --> 05:33 [SPEAKER_02]: is that we can take comments from the listenerships and share that back to the community.
05:33 --> 05:41 [SPEAKER_02]: So we can be a mirror for the community, which is why we're always encouraging people to always send in feedback, voice males, you know, what a have you.
05:41 --> 05:44 [SPEAKER_02]: That's what the discord is for, although we don't always get a chance to.
05:44 --> 05:45 [SPEAKER_02]: scrape the discord.
05:46 --> 06:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, the conversation is flowing slightly just to format, but that's really what we want to be able to do is have that parasocial in the best possible sense of the word relationship with listeners so that as you have thoughts and reflections, we can share those back to the community in this podcasty format.
06:07 --> 06:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, absolutely.
06:09 --> 06:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And from that short conversation I had with my son this morning, it just helps me kind of reflect back that we do, you know, as viewers, as filmmakers, you're doing the chronology, but you're also doing the big themes that you have to convey to create that story.
06:27 --> 06:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Marilyn had posted something in the discord about interpretation and reception.
06:34 --> 06:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And right now I'm covering the Apple TV show pleuribus with Nicole, who's one of the hosts of the Nevermind the Music Podcast.
06:43 --> 06:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Nicole was a psychology professor.
06:45 --> 06:47 [SPEAKER_02]: She teaches, you know, psych.
06:47 --> 07:04 [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, some of the things that we've talked to Xi and I have talked about before in the past, especially around the television show, Severance, and now with Pluribus, this is a question of memory, and this often repeated phrase, memory is reconstructive.
07:05 --> 07:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And if you don't think about it, you're like, what does that mean?
07:09 --> 07:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, what it means is
07:16 --> 07:22 [SPEAKER_02]: those neurons are firing and those connections are being made, but they're not always perfectly redone, right?
07:22 --> 07:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Our memory isn't.
07:25 --> 07:27 [SPEAKER_02]: The brain is a very complex thing.
07:27 --> 07:32 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a giant organic computer and things misfire or things
07:33 --> 07:54 [SPEAKER_02]: maybe a particular part of the memory isn't encoded as strongly as other ones, so then when you go to remember that thing, it gets missed and so a detailed drops out or when you think about it, your pre-filtering your thoughts or ideas, so you're constantly literally.
07:54 --> 07:57 [SPEAKER_02]: reconstructing memory physiologically.
07:58 --> 08:00 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not a psychiatrist or a psychologist.
08:00 --> 08:04 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not in the sciences, so I'm just sort of distilling what I've been sort of told.
08:04 --> 08:05 [SPEAKER_02]: This is received wisdom.
08:06 --> 08:08 [SPEAKER_02]: So if I get some details wrong, I apologize.
08:08 --> 08:14 [SPEAKER_02]: But that's my sense of the idea of what memory how memory is reconstructive.
08:14 --> 08:23 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm thinking like what you're saying now to between the chronology and the big themes and what Marilyn posted is that history is reconstructive as well.
08:23 --> 08:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Like that idea is really coming alive for me right now.
08:27 --> 08:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And one of the notes that I had was those great paintings that we have from those times.
08:32 --> 08:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Those are not reliable.
08:33 --> 08:36 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, exactly.
08:36 --> 08:39 [SPEAKER_01]: That's also, we'll talk a little bit more about that.
08:39 --> 08:52 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just amazing to find that little detail, which is so important that you are also your reconstruction, reconstructing that memory.
08:52 --> 08:53 [SPEAKER_01]: for purpose.
08:53 --> 08:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
08:53 --> 08:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
08:54 --> 08:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
08:54 --> 08:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
08:55 --> 08:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Say more similar.
08:56 --> 09:04 [SPEAKER_01]: The fact that we'll just jump right into this idea where the flag was painted in.
09:05 --> 09:09 [SPEAKER_01]: later the stars and stripes the stars and stripes later by painters.
09:09 --> 09:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And they never flew as far as historians could find.
09:13 --> 09:17 [SPEAKER_01]: There was never a stars and stripes flying over a battlefield.
09:18 --> 09:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
09:19 --> 09:33 [SPEAKER_01]: So what is the reason for putting it in in a painting that maybe happens 10, 20, 30, 40,
09:33 --> 09:35 [SPEAKER_01]: There is identity.
09:37 --> 09:46 [SPEAKER_01]: There is ability for us to come to this painting and understand it, have connection to it.
09:47 --> 09:54 [SPEAKER_01]: So there is this hero story being built of Patriots fighting under the banner.
09:54 --> 09:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And the banner is inspirational.
09:56 --> 09:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
09:57 --> 09:59 [SPEAKER_01]: In the battle itself, I'm a civil war buff.
09:59 --> 10:03 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's why I always go back to the civil war in the area I live in.
10:03 --> 10:06 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't throw a rock and not hit a civil war battle field.
10:06 --> 10:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
10:08 --> 10:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Can't fire a musket, maybe.
10:09 --> 10:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I hit a battle field.
10:10 --> 10:11 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
10:11 --> 10:14 [SPEAKER_01]: You're grabbing those those flags.
10:14 --> 10:18 [SPEAKER_01]: They are so important to the morale of your troops.
10:18 --> 10:26 [SPEAKER_01]: So why not have a painting that has the stars and stripes on there to inspire you as you're looking at that painting?
10:26 --> 10:32 [SPEAKER_02]: especially downstream in far away, you know, to temporarily downstream in geographically far away.
10:32 --> 10:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, we are, you know, the children and the grandchildren and the great-grandchildren of anybody who is involved in that.
10:40 --> 10:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And what are you trying to share with them?
10:43 --> 10:45 [SPEAKER_02]: They're so disconnected from it.
10:45 --> 10:53 [SPEAKER_02]: And you want to create that feeling of, hey, you're great grandfather, grandmother, whomever participated in this thing.
10:53 --> 10:56 [SPEAKER_02]: And see, here's the symbol of that thing.
10:56 --> 10:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
10:57 --> 11:00 [SPEAKER_02]: And that symbol of that thing is connected with the depiction.
11:00 --> 11:04 [SPEAKER_02]: So you're reconstructing a history that didn't happen.
11:05 --> 11:07 [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's an inspired reconstruction, right?
11:07 --> 11:12 [SPEAKER_02]: You're taking facts and ideas, you know, but you're reconstructing something.
11:13 --> 11:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, absolutely.
11:14 --> 11:19 [SPEAKER_01]: The historians themselves, the work that we do is always reconstructing.
11:19 --> 11:30 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're taking, as I mentioned, I think in the previous podcast, we're taking sources and re-examining them or refine new sources, and that gives us a different part of the stories.
11:31 --> 11:33 [SPEAKER_01]: So memory,
11:33 --> 11:34 [SPEAKER_01]: is being reconstructed.
11:34 --> 11:38 [SPEAKER_01]: The story that historians are trying to tell is reconstructed.
11:38 --> 11:40 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a living organism.
11:40 --> 11:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Memory is a living organism as well.
11:43 --> 11:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, we can talk about the statues that
11:49 --> 11:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Go up, right?
11:50 --> 11:51 [SPEAKER_01]: This part of memory.
11:51 --> 11:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
11:51 --> 11:52 [SPEAKER_01]: It's part of memory.
11:53 --> 11:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Marilyn has a great line here.
11:54 --> 11:59 [SPEAKER_02]: He says, uh, if you have six eyewitnesses to event, you usually have at least seven versions.
12:00 --> 12:03 [SPEAKER_02]: And then if you ask them again in 10 years, you'll still have different interpretations.
12:03 --> 12:07 [SPEAKER_02]: So, uh, it's, um, it's a really interesting thing.
12:07 --> 12:15 [SPEAKER_02]: And when we flatten history, so that we lose nuance and perspective,
12:16 --> 12:26 [SPEAKER_02]: then in me simplify it, that I think is a not necessarily a beneficial thing.
12:27 --> 12:35 [SPEAKER_02]: You may use that to, so I guess a question is, how do you catch someone's attention?
12:36 --> 12:52 [SPEAKER_02]: with a heroic story, or heroic image, or something that leads them to question more, but then have that more information also readily accessible, because it is kind of hard to transmit nuance.
12:53 --> 13:07 [SPEAKER_02]: in different mediums and in different formats and in different ways, so that's a dilemma, and I think it goes into something that they talked about in this episode about teaching a virtue and having a common sensibility.
13:07 --> 13:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Not common senses in, you know, don't walk around all in all black at night in the winter, you know, but you know, because you're going to get, you know, that's dangerous traffic-wise.
13:18 --> 13:19 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm trying to make up an analogy.
13:20 --> 13:46 [SPEAKER_02]: you know that kind of common sense versus common sensibility that you and I and our fellow citizens have all had an opportunity to learn nuance and complexity in our national history so that as we so that we both have the ability to engage with complexity in nuance as it presents itself.
13:46 --> 13:51 [SPEAKER_02]: but that we have models and explanations and pathways forward.
13:52 --> 14:02 [SPEAKER_02]: This whole thing about all these Native American Confederacies, I kind of knew that there were some Alicia talked about it before, and I was a previous podcast or whatever.
14:02 --> 14:16 [SPEAKER_02]: I had no freaking idea that these ideas of democracy and confederation amongst all these tribes was so prevalent and organically created
14:16 --> 14:17 [SPEAKER_02]: of European history.
14:18 --> 14:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
14:19 --> 14:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
14:19 --> 14:39 [SPEAKER_02]: And if I knew that going forward, I might have some different opinions in different appreciations, not only for my, you know, fellow Americans, citizens, but my own, fellow Native American citizens and then an understanding of my own democracy and how my own
14:39 --> 14:44 [SPEAKER_02]: system of Republican government, wait, what's the way I want to say?
14:44 --> 14:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Representative, I guess, is the way Republican get some of my terms confused.
14:49 --> 14:55 [SPEAKER_02]: But even there in, to understand that this is how this works, and that this is not a new thing, or it's an independent thing, right?
14:55 --> 14:59 [SPEAKER_02]: But this is a function of human societies overall.
15:00 --> 15:01 [SPEAKER_02]: So virtue, right?
15:01 --> 15:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Like if we don't have virtue,
15:03 --> 15:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and the importance the founding fathers put on education, exactly what you're talking about as well, I think that we have an obligation to educate ourselves so that flat history becomes new odds.
15:21 --> 15:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
15:22 --> 15:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Cool.
15:23 --> 15:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
15:23 --> 15:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, all right.
15:25 --> 15:28 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't have many other observations other than that.
15:28 --> 15:31 [SPEAKER_02]: We are continuing our nightly watch as a family.
15:31 --> 15:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And after episode four was over last night, our daughter asked us to go, can we watch the next one?
15:37 --> 15:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, no, it's been time.
15:38 --> 15:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Gotta, you know.
15:40 --> 15:46 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I think the other thing is that it's just a lot to take in.
15:47 --> 15:56 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to keep a pay you and I are trying to keep a pace going and it's just a lot and I just I'm having a hard time locking in all the details.
15:56 --> 15:58 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just letting it try to wash over me.
15:58 --> 16:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to I hate to have to use the word grock because it's but you know the just getting it right that's what grock originally meant was just absorbing it not it's not a AI tool.
16:13 --> 16:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, you know, creative.
16:14 --> 16:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, but there's a historic.
16:15 --> 16:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, the complete sidetrack there.
16:18 --> 16:19 [SPEAKER_02]: So, it's a lot to take in.
16:20 --> 16:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Feedback wise, I did get a quick note for my mom, I'm on.
16:24 --> 16:33 [SPEAKER_02]: And she pointed out that Thomas Payne used the phrase, an asylum for mankind in the common sense pamphlet.
16:33 --> 16:35 [SPEAKER_02]: So again, it's a lot of detail.
16:35 --> 16:36 [SPEAKER_02]: We missed that detail.
16:37 --> 16:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was all it was about having America as a haven for people fleeing oppression in Europe.
16:44 --> 16:55 [SPEAKER_02]: And you argued that while freedom had been hunted around the globe, America had the opportunity become the fugitive home of the world's persecuted lovers of civil and religious liberty.
16:56 --> 17:02 [SPEAKER_02]: and that the idea position the American colonies, I'm paraphrasing from the Internet search here.
17:02 --> 17:10 [SPEAKER_02]: So, but that place for hope in freedom as opposed to the tyranny and oppression of the old world.
17:10 --> 17:12 [SPEAKER_01]: My sister, I also overfrog.
17:13 --> 17:17 [SPEAKER_01]: My sister, Red Zippy, texted me that same quote.
17:17 --> 17:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, really, okay.
17:19 --> 17:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
17:19 --> 17:22 [SPEAKER_01]: your mom and my sister on the same page here.
17:22 --> 17:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
17:22 --> 17:23 [SPEAKER_01]: We're doing here.
17:23 --> 17:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And that that leans into what you were talking about your interpretation of asylum versus my institutional one.
17:31 --> 17:32 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's that's great.
17:33 --> 17:37 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really important that we little details that you said it flies by.
17:37 --> 17:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Totally.
17:39 --> 17:44 [SPEAKER_02]: And my mom also said in her email that she's watching one hour at a time.
17:45 --> 17:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so she's right, which makes sense, right?
17:48 --> 17:49 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a bit more bites that you can take it in.
17:50 --> 17:52 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and it would have been, yeah, I know.
17:52 --> 17:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I know they had a hard time trying to package this and understand it, but I think it's okay.
17:57 --> 18:04 [SPEAKER_02]: I give you my permission, not that it means anything to stop at wherever your brain goes, I'm good.
18:05 --> 18:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Just go ahead and stop it because it's going to be there for you.
18:07 --> 18:12 [SPEAKER_02]: So absolutely, you got to rest and write soak it in.
18:12 --> 18:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Right, reflect and take it in.
18:13 --> 18:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Alright, so let's move on.
18:16 --> 18:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Right, episode four discussion.
18:18 --> 18:25 [SPEAKER_02]: This is Conquer by a draw game, which is an interesting title, but I think it's clear by the end of it.
18:26 --> 18:32 [SPEAKER_02]: And this is covering the period of January 1777 to February 1778.
18:32 --> 18:35 [SPEAKER_02]: So a year and a couple of months.
18:36 --> 18:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And this spans the Battle of Princeton, Hubbardton, or so I don't, I can't even say it.
18:44 --> 19:12 [SPEAKER_02]: or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or iskini or isk
19:12 --> 19:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And for me, it was, this is one of the standard things you learned about in the history books, so up France entering the war.
19:20 --> 19:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
19:21 --> 19:29 [SPEAKER_01]: But Burns really does a great job of just acts, you know, accenting that point that we really needed France.
19:29 --> 19:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, right.
19:30 --> 19:32 [SPEAKER_01]: We were low on supplies.
19:33 --> 19:34 [SPEAKER_01]: We were low on bullets.
19:35 --> 19:38 [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't have a Navy, right?
19:38 --> 19:47 [SPEAKER_01]: They tried to build some boats, but you can't build like 15 boats in Lake Champlain and start to put those in the Atlantic.
19:47 --> 19:48 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not going to work.
19:49 --> 19:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So we really needed France.
19:51 --> 19:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And so he did a, you know, it's just one of those points that, oh yeah, everyone knows that.
19:57 --> 19:59 [SPEAKER_01]: France, I know the war,
19:59 --> 20:01 [SPEAKER_01]: No, we really need it.
20:02 --> 20:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Accent needed France's help.
20:05 --> 20:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And what's interesting too is that, and we'll see if this is going to be added, but Spain and Holland
20:14 --> 20:17 [SPEAKER_01]: also enter with France, right?
20:18 --> 20:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's something that we'll see if Burns teases out, these two other row powers.
20:24 --> 20:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And I had something that stood out too, that's along that same lines, but it's a little bit slightly different tack on it, which I guess when you think about the, you know, all of the history that happened between then and now, but that we have a
20:44 --> 20:45 [SPEAKER_02]: and not the French.
20:46 --> 20:47 [SPEAKER_02]: How did that end up?
20:47 --> 20:57 [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, post-Cold War, you know, it's the British and the Americans really with this very, very tight, integrated geopolitical relationship.
20:57 --> 21:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and I remember the first time when I was a young man, not the first time, but a time that I kind of went off on my own and traveled and did some I lived in the UK for or stayed in the UK for some time and I traveled to France several times as well.
21:17 --> 21:23 [SPEAKER_02]: and just, you know, the British streets, they're very different, the street markings, driving, you know, all that kind of stuff.
21:23 --> 21:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And it just didn't make a lot of sense to me, but then I went to France and traffic and urban layout made much more sense to me.
21:31 --> 21:33 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, that's weird.
21:33 --> 21:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Why is that?
21:34 --> 21:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Where we identify more surface level with the brits than we do, say, with Germans or Dutch or French?
21:41 --> 21:46 [SPEAKER_02]: And all four of those have deep deep connections to our early history as a country.
21:47 --> 21:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.
21:48 --> 21:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And that relationship that closeness with Britain and United States, of course, we fought another war with them in 1812.
21:57 --> 22:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And then it wasn't until the turn of the 19th century that we started repairing our relationship, least diplomatically and politically with Britain.
22:09 --> 22:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And then leading, of course, two or one, which were allies, which carted cemented that relationship.
22:16 --> 22:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, as you mentioned, World War II was really something that cemented our relationship that went forward.
22:22 --> 22:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And now Britain is one of, like, if you're thinking about military and intelligence, along with the culture that you mentioned, Britain is one of the five eyes.
22:32 --> 22:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
22:33 --> 22:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
22:33 --> 22:38 [SPEAKER_01]: We have a very close military and intelligent
22:39 --> 22:44 [SPEAKER_01]: with Britain thanks to that, but yeah, it's, it's really interesting point.
22:45 --> 22:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.
22:45 --> 22:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
22:45 --> 22:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
22:46 --> 22:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Would you like a bowl of water?
22:48 --> 22:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, he's joke in my family about that.
22:50 --> 22:54 [SPEAKER_02]: And so gui bought on us and things like, my daughter and I like to joke.
22:54 --> 22:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Because there is so many little weird differences.
22:58 --> 23:03 [SPEAKER_02]: But yet somehow we're supposedly these two great friends, nation friends.
23:03 --> 23:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So yes, yes.
23:06 --> 23:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
23:06 --> 23:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And we, uh, Alisha, my sister and I talked about the, uh, gilded age, British still had that strong social connection between the United States.
23:16 --> 23:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
23:16 --> 23:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
23:17 --> 23:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
23:17 --> 23:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's complicated.
23:19 --> 23:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Cool.
23:19 --> 23:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
23:19 --> 23:20 [SPEAKER_01]: What else do you got?
23:20 --> 23:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I have the Native American stories, which you hinted earlier about the six nations.
23:26 --> 23:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I really loved the idea, uh,
23:34 --> 23:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
23:35 --> 23:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
23:35 --> 23:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
23:36 --> 23:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
23:37 --> 23:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And what I call like the burden of decision and what I mean by that is I cannot imagine these tribes trying to make a decision.
23:47 --> 23:52 [SPEAKER_01]: What side to fight in should we be neutral?
23:53 --> 23:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And it broke apart.
23:55 --> 24:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate the the moments where that decision then leads to breaking
24:01 --> 24:13 [SPEAKER_01]: even within the tribes that some go to Britain, some go to the patriots, I cannot imagine how tough that decision must have been.
24:13 --> 24:15 [SPEAKER_01]: So that really stood out for me.
24:16 --> 24:18 [SPEAKER_02]: That is.
24:18 --> 24:36 [SPEAKER_02]: One of the things that I want to know more about, I'll mention that now, is the sixth nation Confederacy of the Mohawk, though, Nighta, the Ona-Daga, the Kayuga, the Senika, and the Tuscaraura, Tuscaraura, if I'm getting that right, that, and I mentioned it earlier that
24:37 --> 24:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And I did a quick internet search to see if there were other confederacies, and there's a bunch of different areas, and for me as a middle class American citizen, I know nothing about these.
24:50 --> 25:14 [SPEAKER_02]: right and it's just mind boggling that it's it's surprising but not shocking I guess in a way maybe is a way to say that I'm not shocked that I wasn't taught that history but I'm still surprised that I'm not done that history so absolutely it's it's mentioned in our history books but it's you can't drill down you just cannot drill down to that important part of history
25:15 --> 25:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, and so a couple of things that stood out for me, what, uh, the idea that these soldiers from Europe were crossing to join our war.
25:24 --> 25:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, hey, I'm a military guy in Poland or whatever.
25:27 --> 25:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Let me just go fight in this other war going on here.
25:30 --> 25:30 [SPEAKER_02]: No problem.
25:31 --> 25:32 [SPEAKER_02]: And they just can.
25:33 --> 25:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Just really like, whoa, come on over and that, uh, you know, we, we talk about this is a global war.
25:41 --> 25:55 [SPEAKER_02]: you know, at least a European war world war, it really stood out to me that that's the case when they mentioned the fact that there's like this Polish general fighting in these, you know, and a whole bunch of other ones beyond just law-fi at.
25:55 --> 25:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
25:56 --> 25:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
25:56 --> 25:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
25:57 --> 25:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
25:57 --> 26:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So it plays I think in part for this social status.
26:02 --> 26:04 [SPEAKER_01]: If you fight in a war, right?
26:04 --> 26:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Burns the documentary episode said that Europe was a piece at this point.
26:09 --> 26:16 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you wanted to get your credentials and and rise in the social status, yes, you got to fight a war right.
26:17 --> 26:20 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's something that in the musical Hamilton.
26:20 --> 26:33 [SPEAKER_02]: We see constantly that Hamilton is trying to he's like, I got to fight.
26:33 --> 26:34 [SPEAKER_01]: that's right.
26:34 --> 26:34 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
26:34 --> 26:37 [SPEAKER_01]: War is glory.
26:37 --> 26:40 [SPEAKER_01]: It's it gives you credentials.
26:41 --> 26:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
26:42 --> 26:43 [SPEAKER_02]: It's very strange.
26:44 --> 26:45 [SPEAKER_02]: You don't think of it that way.
26:45 --> 26:46 [SPEAKER_01]: No, we don't.
26:46 --> 26:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Which brings me to another point that I had, which is it's always the poor who carry the wars.
26:51 --> 26:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
26:52 --> 26:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
26:53 --> 26:54 [SPEAKER_01]: There.
26:55 --> 26:58 [SPEAKER_01]: That was a great story.
26:58 --> 26:59 [SPEAKER_01]: A little bit of story.
26:59 --> 27:02 [SPEAKER_01]: How we're changing the how the war as it goes longer.
27:04 --> 27:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you can buy your way out of, you know, service, yes, and that it's the people who are desperate economically and socially, who on the promise of, you know, 10 Guinness or 20 Guinness, you know, whatever, 20 dollars and 100 parcel, 100 acres of land that nobody owns, but we're going to give it to you.
27:26 --> 27:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody.
27:26 --> 27:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody from European background owns, but that is somebody else's land, but yeah, we're going to carve out something.
27:34 --> 27:35 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just wild.
27:35 --> 27:48 [SPEAKER_02]: But when you're in a desperate situation, and this is another point, I think this is in my dislikes, I'm thinking about our dislike question not up as a production.
27:49 --> 27:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Question, like what I didn't like about what Ken Burns, how he told the story or something like that, but what I just liked in the sense of, wow, that would really suck.
27:58 --> 27:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like if I were in that position.
27:59 --> 28:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I like that.
28:01 --> 28:08 [SPEAKER_02]: That's one of the things I really didn't like was that you could, you could buy your way out of service because that's real problematic later.
28:08 --> 28:12 [SPEAKER_02]: That's going to create some, that's going to set up for some real.
28:12 --> 28:13 [SPEAKER_02]: social disharminy.
28:14 --> 28:34 [SPEAKER_02]: The people who fought in the war survived are owed something, but yet are still not of social status, so they're kind of genre whatever, and or the people who are like swanning about, hey, I'm an American citizen now, and then somebody else going, you didn't fight in the war.
28:34 --> 28:35 [SPEAKER_02]: You don't deserve this.
28:35 --> 28:37 [SPEAKER_02]: You bought your way out of it.
28:37 --> 28:44 [SPEAKER_02]: And now we have a bunch of space for social, you know, for conflict among fellow citizens.
28:45 --> 28:46 [SPEAKER_01]: That's very interesting.
28:46 --> 28:47 [SPEAKER_01]: So true.
28:47 --> 28:51 [SPEAKER_01]: So true, where you end up,
28:52 --> 29:00 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and in those who are promised the poor, who are promised, sometimes don't get what they're, yeah, right.
29:00 --> 29:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, don't get what they're owed.
29:02 --> 29:08 [SPEAKER_02]: And it boggles my mind because we see it throughout history and it's always a source of problems later on.
29:09 --> 29:21 [SPEAKER_02]: I think this happened with the Roman Empire, you know, that when Caesar came back and, you know, or all these troops, I'm just, I have fragmented knowledge.
29:21 --> 29:23 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a man, but I don't think about Rome all the time.
29:23 --> 29:37 [SPEAKER_02]: The idea that, you know, you've got all these troops who've come back from gall and Britannia and whatever, and oh, you're due this stuff, but then they end up politically ignoring them and not paying that out.
29:38 --> 29:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, you're creating a class of people who are going to not be happy with you and your authority.
29:47 --> 29:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and I'm also reminded of the history of the bonus army in the 1930s during the Great Depression.
29:55 --> 29:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't know about that.
29:56 --> 30:04 [SPEAKER_01]: We're one veterans, we're owed a bonus for fighting, and Congress would not give them the bonus.
30:05 --> 30:09 [SPEAKER_01]: So, let me tell you, yes, they ended up.
30:09 --> 30:18 [SPEAKER_01]: camping out in Washington, D.C., and then general Douglas MacArthur, swoops in with his troops, and pushes them out.
30:18 --> 30:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I do know, I've heard a fragment about this before.
30:21 --> 30:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
30:22 --> 30:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
30:23 --> 30:25 [SPEAKER_02]: So, sliding troop, that's right.
30:25 --> 30:25 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
30:26 --> 30:26 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
30:26 --> 30:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Bonus is we're a big problem.
30:29 --> 30:32 [SPEAKER_01]: If you're not, you're not giving those bonuses to the rest.
30:32 --> 30:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
30:32 --> 30:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
30:33 --> 30:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
30:34 --> 30:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I think one other thing that I had that stood out and it's less about the fact that they were
30:45 --> 30:53 [SPEAKER_02]: doing this then the word choice that was used in the episode last night.
30:53 --> 30:59 [SPEAKER_02]: And that is the difference between a population versus vaccination.
30:59 --> 31:04 [SPEAKER_02]: If you listen in the episode, they're always saying in a population.
31:04 --> 31:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, huh, wait a minute.
31:07 --> 31:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Why is that a not vaccination?
31:10 --> 31:12 [SPEAKER_02]: So I just did a quick internet search.
31:12 --> 31:26 [SPEAKER_02]: And a population is a term that can refer to introducing the infectious agents in a not always controlled or safe form, living or dead to try to induce immunity experimentally.
31:26 --> 31:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Whereas vaccination,
31:29 --> 31:41 [SPEAKER_02]: is uses a product called the vaccine which has been carefully designed and then with an intent to teach the immune system to defend against the particular pathogen.
31:42 --> 31:44 [SPEAKER_02]: So vaccination is targeted.
31:44 --> 31:45 [SPEAKER_02]: It's designed.
31:45 --> 31:46 [SPEAKER_02]: It's cleaned up.
31:47 --> 31:48 [SPEAKER_02]: It's proven effective and safe.
31:49 --> 31:51 [SPEAKER_02]: Where an accumulation is here.
31:52 --> 31:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Let me, well,
31:53 --> 31:58 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you're watching Pluribus, but let me lick this donut, but that doesn't really work.
31:58 --> 31:59 [SPEAKER_02]: That's infection.
31:59 --> 32:00 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's not an accumulation.
32:00 --> 32:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry.
32:00 --> 32:01 [SPEAKER_02]: That's the wrong term.
32:01 --> 32:10 [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, doing the scratching thing or taking a sore and trying to induce it that way, intentionally giving somebody exposing them to this.
32:11 --> 32:14 [SPEAKER_02]: But they were very careful last night to always use the word in an accumulation.
32:15 --> 32:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
32:16 --> 32:26 [SPEAKER_01]: That is, that is really interesting where in modern medicine vaccine is much, it's used much more than an accumulation.
32:27 --> 32:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because we don't in our right.
32:28 --> 32:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
32:29 --> 32:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Put our modern processes FDA and NIH and yeah, that's.
32:35 --> 32:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's really interesting.
32:36 --> 32:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep, well done.
32:38 --> 32:41 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, anything else on the things stood out, David?
32:41 --> 32:42 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I think that's about it for me.
32:42 --> 32:45 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, so what did we like?
32:45 --> 32:57 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, for me, I think it was this idea that we talked earlier about being virtual, virtualists, right, citizenry and education.
32:57 --> 33:03 [SPEAKER_01]: This is something that is so important to the framers as they,
33:03 --> 33:21 [SPEAKER_01]: most of them really believed in education, they're educated to themselves, but this virtue idea moves into the constitution, for example, that they always believe that a president could be checked by virtue.
33:22 --> 33:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.
33:22 --> 33:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
33:24 --> 33:27 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's why so many things are norms and not laws.
33:27 --> 33:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, you got it.
33:29 --> 33:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Because you think that a virtuous person
33:33 --> 33:46 [SPEAKER_02]: And we see that when Congress, when the Continental Congress is worried about giving Washington too much power to draw resources from the citizenry,
33:47 --> 33:50 [SPEAKER_02]: They're like, well, that could lead to, you know, tyrannical behavior.
33:50 --> 33:54 [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't remember who it was, countered that and just and said, I know this guy.
33:54 --> 33:55 [SPEAKER_02]: He is virtuous.
33:55 --> 33:56 [SPEAKER_02]: He's not going to do that.
33:57 --> 33:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
33:58 --> 34:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And the framers had people like George Washington.
34:03 --> 34:06 [SPEAKER_01]: who they thought was quite virtuous.
34:06 --> 34:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And they talk a lot about Washington's being virtuous and leading up to his ability to command and then later become president.
34:20 --> 34:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And step away from being
34:28 --> 34:31 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, virtue to a man who has a lot of it.
34:31 --> 34:32 [SPEAKER_01]: You've seen to have a lot of it.
34:32 --> 34:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
34:33 --> 34:34 [SPEAKER_02]: I've seen to have a lot of it.
34:34 --> 34:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
34:36 --> 34:37 [SPEAKER_01]: How about you?
34:38 --> 34:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
34:39 --> 34:40 [SPEAKER_02]: I have a few things.
34:41 --> 34:43 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll just kind of run through them really quick.
34:44 --> 34:53 [SPEAKER_02]: There's a quote that I've always really enjoyed that I believe as franklin's, which is if it doesn't break my bones or pick my pockets,
34:53 --> 35:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And when it's used to refer to religious tolerance, tolerance in general, and religious tolerance, I think specifically, and I heard it last night.
35:02 --> 35:03 [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, oh, I love that.
35:04 --> 35:06 [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't thought about that quote in a long time.
35:06 --> 35:17 [SPEAKER_02]: But when we think about this idea that what is now, the United States of America, you know, was created as a place
35:18 --> 35:27 [SPEAKER_02]: where you could pursue your beliefs and your ideals and as long as it didn't harm your neighbor, you're free to do that.
35:27 --> 35:37 [SPEAKER_02]: And we as a collective government are not going to force you into any particular state religion or ideology or anything like that.
35:38 --> 35:41 [SPEAKER_02]: And for me, I just love the framing.
35:41 --> 35:45 [SPEAKER_02]: If it doesn't break my bones or pick my pocket, it's cool.
35:45 --> 35:52 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that we have that as an ideal, but currently it's there, and I just always enjoyed it.
35:52 --> 35:52 [SPEAKER_02]: So.
35:53 --> 35:54 [SPEAKER_01]: That's great.
35:54 --> 35:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, a couple other things.
35:56 --> 36:06 [SPEAKER_02]: I really like seeing how the patriots use the terrain to slow the British advances, you know, filling the trees and flooding the fields and things like that to slow them down.
36:06 --> 36:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Another thing I liked was finally we got a Hamilton crossover, Lafayette, daughter.
36:14 --> 36:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Gino, she was curled up with us on under a blanket on the couch and she sat up.
36:19 --> 36:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Lafayette?
36:21 --> 36:28 [SPEAKER_02]: And she says, the only way I'm pronouncing Lafayette is Lafayette, from the musical itself, love it.
36:28 --> 36:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
36:29 --> 36:44 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we're getting a lot more of the story woven in of the impact of the war relative to women, two native Americans and two enslaved people.
36:44 --> 36:49 [SPEAKER_02]: And they're constantly making sure that they're adding those perspectives and elements.
36:50 --> 36:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Not elevating any one story or the other.
36:53 --> 36:56 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, a lot of the story is about these men and wigs fighting these wars, right?
36:56 --> 37:08 [SPEAKER_02]: These generals and admirals and such, which is important, but they're never not telling the story of women and enslaved and Native Americans and how the war is affecting those people.
37:09 --> 37:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was way more than we probably have ever done, right?
37:12 --> 37:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I think so, I think so.
37:14 --> 37:21 [SPEAKER_01]: We are now finding out that these voices are being heard.
37:21 --> 37:25 [SPEAKER_01]: They're playing a more integral point in the war.
37:25 --> 37:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And I thinking about it,
37:28 --> 37:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it really, you know, that's a length of a war, please, just changes the identity, I am dynamics.
37:37 --> 37:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
37:37 --> 37:48 [SPEAKER_01]: If you have a short war, you know, the maybe the people on the fringes are not as impacted, or it's just something that's one or two things happen.
37:48 --> 37:50 [SPEAKER_01]: The war's over.
37:50 --> 37:57 [SPEAKER_01]: But not in this case, and you could see this in the Civil War, but I won't go off there.
37:57 --> 38:00 [SPEAKER_01]: But as we go longer, we have more boycotts.
38:00 --> 38:06 [SPEAKER_01]: We have the Native Americans are being more and more drawn into this conflict.
38:06 --> 38:08 [SPEAKER_01]: They can't ignore it anymore.
38:08 --> 38:10 [SPEAKER_01]: More troops are coming in.
38:10 --> 38:14 [SPEAKER_01]: They're coming into territories that never was seen before.
38:14 --> 38:22 [SPEAKER_01]: So the longer the war glass, the more the more people have to get involved, if that makes sense.
38:22 --> 38:30 [SPEAKER_02]: I had this somewhere in my notes and I can't, I don't know if I included it, ended up not including it or not because I'm not scanning, I don't see it when I'm scanning through.
38:32 --> 38:34 [SPEAKER_02]: But it's on this very idea which is,
38:36 --> 38:40 [SPEAKER_02]: to be a civilian in this circumstance, what a thought.
38:41 --> 38:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Because to the west, you have the mountains, and then you have what they call the Indian country.
38:49 --> 38:58 [SPEAKER_02]: To the east, you have an ocean and British and forces and maybe other potential hostiles.
38:58 --> 39:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And in the middle, you have all these armies running up and down or prisoners of war being sent to you on mass and you're being taxed and levied.
39:10 --> 39:15 [SPEAKER_02]: And if you live in any of these battle areas, you, where do you go?
39:15 --> 39:16 [SPEAKER_02]: What do you do?
39:17 --> 39:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And it made me really think of George R. Martin in the Song of Ice and Fire in forget, which was it?
39:25 --> 39:29 [SPEAKER_02]: I can't remember all the book titles, but anyway, I think it's the first book.
39:30 --> 39:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Second, anyway, I'm not gonna, they're gonna come from me, but that's fine.
39:34 --> 39:52 [SPEAKER_02]: That the King's lands, you know, the middle territory, when they're having the war of the, of the seven kingdoms, that the Martin really describes a lot of this that is just for the, for the
39:52 --> 40:11 [SPEAKER_02]: If your stuff is going to get taken from you, your home, you're going to be dispossessed of your possessions in your home, your life, especially if your woman is extremely perilous for a lot of different reasons, children, and then there's just nowhere to go.
40:12 --> 40:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And so not only you have the poor carrying the burden of the battles, but then you have the the peasantry, so to speak, are trapped by this horrible circumstance, horrible and destructive circumstances.
40:31 --> 40:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, absolutely, and I was, you know, as I was watching, for example, the battle scenes in this episode, I kept thinking,
40:40 --> 40:48 [SPEAKER_01]: How would I, if my family lived in one of those homes, and all of a sudden, British, or, you know, Patriot troops started coming up into my backyard?
40:48 --> 40:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm gonna be frightfully scared.
40:52 --> 40:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what to do.
40:53 --> 41:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and there's more of them than you, and they're better armed, and they're not as scared as you, and they've seen battle, they've survived it, so yeah, it's tough.
41:03 --> 41:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
41:04 --> 41:32 [SPEAKER_02]: And on top of that, I wanted to throw in something else that I didn't like and you already touched on a little bit, so we don't have to go too far into it, but that war came to that these conflicts then started to affect the six nations that it started to break apart the Confederacy of those nations that had been a been stable or suddenly destabilized by these
41:33 --> 41:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, exactly.
41:35 --> 41:41 [SPEAKER_01]: War, the longer the war is, destructive for more easy, stabilize, I like that word.
41:41 --> 41:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the social fabric starts to come apart.
41:44 --> 41:46 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right, that's right, yes.
41:46 --> 41:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Which you had, when you're just like notes here, yeah, was the use of propaganda.
41:53 --> 42:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that both British and the patriots used, you know, the fact that Native Americans were killing white people in this episode as a particular woman and using that as a way to
42:11 --> 42:28 [SPEAKER_01]: to scare people to get the motivated to fight the British, or fight this particular tribe because all look what they did, and then you have the Peole Massacre, which we talk about memory.
42:29 --> 42:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, right.
42:30 --> 42:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so that was based on eyewitnesses in that battle that the British were
42:41 --> 42:42 [SPEAKER_01]: that isn't always reliable.
42:44 --> 42:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And when historians begin to look at that battle, there is some discrepancy in those eyewitness accounts.
42:54 --> 43:02 [SPEAKER_01]: So you could use that massacre as a great tool to, for your side.
43:03 --> 43:10 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're seeing the use of propaganda at this next level in disturbing ways.
43:10 --> 43:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Right, and it's not spoken, it's written, and maybe there's some added, you assess the veracity in a different way than somebody telling you a story in the pub about what have happened.
43:24 --> 43:26 [SPEAKER_02]: For you there, no, it wasn't there, but here's this written thing.
43:27 --> 43:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
43:28 --> 43:30 [SPEAKER_02]: From somebody who says they were there.
43:30 --> 43:31 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
43:31 --> 43:31 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
43:31 --> 43:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Or it could also be word a mouth.
43:33 --> 43:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
43:33 --> 43:36 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, I had a buddy who knew a buddy who knew a buddy was there.
43:36 --> 43:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
43:38 --> 43:40 [SPEAKER_01]: That'll tell us that that game that you go around the circle.
43:40 --> 43:42 [SPEAKER_01]: You tell the story telephone.
43:42 --> 43:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
43:42 --> 43:44 [SPEAKER_01]: At the end, it's all messed up.
43:44 --> 43:46 [SPEAKER_01]: But sometimes you use it.
43:46 --> 43:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, especially in written, you could use it as a as a tool.
43:50 --> 43:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
43:50 --> 43:54 [SPEAKER_01]: It's one of those ugly moment throughout history that propaganda is used.
43:55 --> 44:16 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I think we knocked out the dislike and I do like the idea and folks on discord and those who are writing in, you know, if you adjust the subject, you don't have to talk about production, but I really like this idea, David about subject matter.
44:15 --> 44:41 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's not much more that we're going to dislike about the production because there's one thing that you're going to get from Ken Burns is a consistent product episode episode episode and maybe that's one of the things that I just like I wouldn't mind a little bit of dramatic pacing to, you know, keep me excited because all of us last night on the couch were sort of drifting in and out at various, yes, you know, when when the, you know, because we were eating dinner as well and you know, because you guys,
44:41 --> 44:43 [SPEAKER_02]: We're cozy here.
44:43 --> 44:45 [SPEAKER_02]: We're all, you know, snuggled up on a couch.
44:46 --> 44:48 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, come on.
44:48 --> 44:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Just a little bit.
44:49 --> 44:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Just a little bit.
44:50 --> 44:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, I know absolutely absolutely.
44:52 --> 44:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I like what you're saying.
44:53 --> 44:54 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, we'll switch gears.
44:55 --> 44:58 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll talk about what you want to know more about.
44:58 --> 44:59 [SPEAKER_01]: David, what do you got?
44:59 --> 45:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I thought a couple of things.
45:03 --> 45:05 [SPEAKER_02]: One, you touched on a ready virtue.
45:05 --> 45:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And we talked a little bit about, you know, tolerance and deism as well, so common sense.
45:10 --> 45:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I just, I think that would be
45:13 --> 45:15 [SPEAKER_02]: I want to know more about that in general.
45:15 --> 45:19 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know when I'm going to learn more about that, but those things caught my interest for sure.
45:19 --> 45:28 [SPEAKER_02]: And then that sort of bled into Quakers and all the different sort of religious sects that we have present in the Americas.
45:28 --> 45:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And then the other thing is the practice of parole.
45:31 --> 45:34 [SPEAKER_02]: But I don't know, you have Quakers in your notes too.
45:34 --> 45:37 [SPEAKER_02]: So let's maybe center on that for a second.
45:37 --> 45:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
45:38 --> 45:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I really do find this idea because Maryland and our discord gave us a heads up.
45:46 --> 45:48 [SPEAKER_01]: That this is an important element of our story.
45:48 --> 45:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm really happy to see that.
45:51 --> 45:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And this idea of Quakers and religious tolerance versus the revolution.
45:57 --> 45:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Why aren't you fighting?
45:58 --> 45:59 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to fight.
45:59 --> 46:06 [SPEAKER_01]: We need you to fight and you're standing up to your own religious principles
46:06 --> 46:07 [SPEAKER_01]: and that's really fascinating.
46:08 --> 46:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think, you know, I know about in the Jefferson world, Jefferson and Madison were big one of the big figures about religious tolerance after the war and they were supreme believers in religious tolerance.
46:24 --> 46:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And so my eyes and ears were perked up already when they were talking a little bit about about that in that little segment.
46:33 --> 46:35 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's one of those again, right?
46:35 --> 46:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Which is as we were previously talking about, it's one of the casualties of this war is tolerance.
46:41 --> 46:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and it goes into that question of, I'm sacrificing, why aren't you sacrificing?
46:48 --> 46:53 [SPEAKER_02]: And we can see this in some other states that have mandatory military service.
46:53 --> 47:04 [SPEAKER_02]: And there might be exceptions for religious practice, for people of particular,
47:04 --> 47:10 [SPEAKER_02]: groupings within a religion or something like that, and then you get that resentment.
47:10 --> 47:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I did it.
47:11 --> 47:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Why aren't you doing it?
47:12 --> 47:17 [SPEAKER_02]: And why do you, and then you might be suspect of that person.
47:17 --> 47:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, well, you're just saying that.
47:20 --> 47:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, is that really a sincerely held belief?
47:22 --> 47:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Are you going to stick with that belief your whole life?
47:24 --> 47:32 [SPEAKER_02]: And then we get into these questions of purity and motive and intent, and it starts to eat at the social cohesion.
47:32 --> 47:41 [SPEAKER_02]: uh... between groups of people within a country or uh... uh... so whatever identity that you might have
47:42 --> 47:43 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, fun.
47:43 --> 47:43 [SPEAKER_01]: You should say that.
47:44 --> 47:46 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what was writing down identity.
47:47 --> 47:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
47:48 --> 47:57 [SPEAKER_01]: With this idea that in revolution, you are really in trench with your identity as a patriot.
47:57 --> 47:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
47:57 --> 48:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you waver in any way, especially with the Quakers, religious tolerance,
48:04 --> 48:09 [SPEAKER_01]: you are going to be on the out group and there's going to be consequences.
48:09 --> 48:11 [SPEAKER_01]: You are not part of my identity.
48:11 --> 48:12 [SPEAKER_01]: You're over there.
48:12 --> 48:17 [SPEAKER_01]: You're the, you know, some people think even I'm matching the are they enemies.
48:17 --> 48:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's bring it even even into the lorehound Venn diagram loop you a bit tighter with Andor and with Star Wars movie of Rogue One
48:31 --> 48:35 [SPEAKER_02]: she's like, you know, I don't care what flag is flying.
48:35 --> 48:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going to be a survivalist and make my way through this as much as possible and Cassie and challenges her and says, you know, I've been in his fights since I was six years old.
48:45 --> 48:46 [SPEAKER_02]: I've done things.
48:47 --> 48:48 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't have anybody left.
48:48 --> 48:55 [SPEAKER_02]: And if you've seen, I won't spoil it, sees it do, but we learn a lot about the fate of Cassian's friends of family.
48:56 --> 49:04 [SPEAKER_02]: But he says, you know, you know, all my, I've lost people and I've done things for this rebellion that would make your towhairs curl.
49:05 --> 49:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And they challenge each other in that
49:10 --> 49:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Moment of legitimacy, are you somebody who can legitimately say something about this circumstance and in determine the outcome of this issue that we're facing together?
49:23 --> 49:31 [SPEAKER_02]: I did things and I've bled and I've murdered and I've done all this stuff while you haven't.
49:31 --> 49:35 [SPEAKER_02]: So what right do you have to tell me what to do or not to do?
49:36 --> 49:38 [SPEAKER_01]: that's that's so good.
49:38 --> 49:44 [SPEAKER_01]: It it and we talked about and or being a story of revolutions.
49:44 --> 49:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
49:45 --> 49:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
49:46 --> 49:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that you sacrifice and what's interesting too is that we learned that there are some Quakers who to do end up fighting ones an officer.
49:58 --> 49:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
49:59 --> 50:05 [SPEAKER_01]: and that kind of leads you also down to this road of wanting to know more.
50:05 --> 50:06 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, how did you decide?
50:07 --> 50:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you have conversations with your family?
50:08 --> 50:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I really love to know why you decided to join the college.
50:15 --> 50:16 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
50:16 --> 50:21 [SPEAKER_02]: The last thing I have on my list is the practice of parole.
50:23 --> 50:31 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you've read the Aubrey-Matterin books by, oh, now I'm thinking I'm forgetting the author, but Master and Commander was the very famous movie.
50:32 --> 50:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yes.
50:33 --> 50:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yes.
50:34 --> 50:39 [SPEAKER_02]: I want to say Joseph Conrad, but it's not Joseph Conrad, it's, I can see the gentleman's face.
50:39 --> 50:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway,
50:41 --> 51:05 [SPEAKER_02]: I learned about the practice much more and there because that they get captured in parole quite frequently in those book series but there's this idea that oh hey here's this army that has surrendered and okay we're going to put you on parole and they're like okay we'll be good we promise and then okay go to Boston we don't want you there so go over here or whatever and they're just like okay we're going to do what we do
51:05 --> 51:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I just think it was, it's fascinating that you can have that because in World War War 1 and World War 2, we don't ever really see that.
51:13 --> 51:33 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, officers who are captured might get some different treatment from, in listed, especially for the Air Forces, for the Army Air Corps, and with the Luf Waffa, they kind of treated each other differently, and, you know, as opposed to
51:33 --> 51:45 [SPEAKER_02]: But this idea that you could just go, well, here's my sword and there's like, okay, here you go, give it back and I promise not to take up arms until I'm traded or something else changes.
51:45 --> 51:49 [SPEAKER_02]: But that idea that you would, you would honor that is wild to me.
51:49 --> 51:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's an old concept in the modern era.
51:54 --> 51:55 [SPEAKER_01]: You've captured in your steak capture.
51:55 --> 52:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but imagine the burden of five or six thousand, you know, tens of thousands of prisoners of wars, you get a feed them and how's that?
52:04 --> 52:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and maintain some sort of sanitary conditions because the disease outbreak that affects them is going to affect the surrounding communities around you.
52:12 --> 52:19 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's a big issue for that.
52:19 --> 52:20 [SPEAKER_02]: under guard in some way.
52:20 --> 52:23 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a little bit logistically easier, I guess.
52:23 --> 52:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
52:24 --> 52:30 [SPEAKER_01]: It lifts the burden of the state to or the military to provide for them.
52:30 --> 52:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
52:31 --> 52:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
52:32 --> 52:40 [SPEAKER_02]: As opposed to just outright making some other decisions where you don't have to then deal with it, right?
52:40 --> 52:42 [SPEAKER_02]: So we'll let that go down then.
52:41 --> 52:42 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right, Asian.
52:43 --> 52:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And the only thing I have which I mentioned before was learning more about the Bayoli massacre in the British.
52:50 --> 52:52 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, all right, moving on.
52:52 --> 52:54 [SPEAKER_01]: What surprised you the most?
52:55 --> 52:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I think we already talked about paintings as unreliable facts.
52:57 --> 53:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, that seemed so obvious to me, but it surprised me in the moment I was like, duh, of course, I like make so it since.
53:04 --> 53:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
53:05 --> 53:11 [SPEAKER_02]: And then two other things were sort of the movements of armies of great hosts around
53:11 --> 53:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, the place one, the distances involved, or just in seeing, you know, people, they walked from Montreal to, you know, down into Jersey or whatever, you're just like, dang.
53:25 --> 53:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And they're, they're having to forge and feed, you know, on their way and maintain discipline and all that stuff just wild to me.
53:31 --> 53:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And then the other idea, the way that they set it up,
53:37 --> 53:52 [SPEAKER_02]: In the show really caught my attention, which is the capturing of Philadelphia and this idea if you can capture the enemies capital then the game would be over and it's very much like.
53:53 --> 54:05 [SPEAKER_02]: These, these learned, you know, wigged men, you know, men wearing wigs and are cultured and gentlemanly this idea of chess that we're playing this noble game.
54:06 --> 54:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And if I can take your king, then the game will be over.
54:10 --> 54:12 [SPEAKER_02]: And then we can all sort of go.
54:12 --> 54:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And it sort of belies this fact that at some level,
54:16 --> 54:24 [SPEAKER_02]: there is it gains been like a approach to this, which then belies the ugly truth that is actually happening on the ground.
54:24 --> 54:32 [SPEAKER_02]: But I just thought the formation of, if I can take out the king, aka Philadelphia, then we can win the war.
54:32 --> 54:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Which didn't work.
54:34 --> 54:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry.
54:35 --> 54:35 [SPEAKER_01]: News flash.
54:36 --> 54:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
54:36 --> 54:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Nice drive, but it doesn't work that way anymore.
54:40 --> 54:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I got some of the middle ages.
54:42 --> 54:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
54:42 --> 54:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Or European war, right?
54:43 --> 54:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe where you're trying to, because you've had so many war after wars, after wars, after wars, you're trying to mitigate the effect of having endless war.
54:57 --> 55:06 [SPEAKER_02]: and the destruction and damage to the infrastructure and to the population and your ability to have resilience and recover after such a great conflict.
55:06 --> 55:20 [SPEAKER_02]: I was reading some news this morning and I'm just really thinking about the current conflict between Ukraine and Russia and the way that Ukraine is a
55:21 --> 55:40 [SPEAKER_02]: conducting the war right now is that they're actually trying to damage Russian infrastructure so that they can't carry on the war right that makes it absolutely but they're damaging and damaging and damaging it to the point that at some point whether whether conditions in the war change or not regardless at some point the war is going to be over someday.
55:40 --> 56:06 [SPEAKER_02]: But that nation is going to be so crippled, in so damaged, because all of the energy and logistical infrastructure that's been attributed to a treaty, I don't know if I can turn that into word, the attrition rate of that, or the damage rate of that, it's just going to, that's going to be decades long for that country to be able to recover any semblance of quote and quote
56:07 --> 56:07 [SPEAKER_01]: that's right.
56:07 --> 56:08 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
56:08 --> 56:25 [SPEAKER_02]: And so maybe in Europe where you're constantly having wars back and forth, you're trying to like, okay, well, we're still going to fight, but maybe when I say, uh, I give up, you know, or, you know, don't kill the peasants and, you know, okay, you took my capital, okay, you took my king, you know, I give up or whatever, we'll have a treaty now.
56:25 --> 56:30 [SPEAKER_02]: that they tried to normalize things in a way so that the downstream effects could be mitigated.
56:31 --> 56:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Again, I'm just in foil that hat there, yeah, I think here or so.
56:34 --> 56:34 [SPEAKER_01]: It's done.
56:34 --> 56:53 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't think it's necessarily tin foil at all and it's a great point that you make that they're bringing old chessboard, you know, take the king ideas and transplanting it in a war that is totally different that the British has to readjust to and they're not
56:53 --> 57:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and that we have land, we have the huge train where as in Europe, it was condensed and known, right, these general status wars, and so yeah, it's completely different set of circumstances.
57:05 --> 57:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
57:06 --> 57:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So I have, like you, the ideas about the paintings, but also Betsy Ross and historians have pretty much said that she did not sew the first flag.
57:19 --> 57:22 [SPEAKER_01]: So that idea of trippin' bushing.
57:23 --> 57:24 [SPEAKER_02]: pretty funny.
57:24 --> 57:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's a huge huge mythology around that.
57:27 --> 57:28 [SPEAKER_01]: That is.
57:28 --> 57:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I remember going to Philadelphia when I was a kid and seeing, I think Betsy Ross's house.
57:34 --> 57:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
57:34 --> 57:36 [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know if it's still standing.
57:36 --> 57:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Lisa might know, but yeah, it's like, that's just part of the story.
57:41 --> 57:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, nope, not really.
57:46 --> 57:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I also wanted to surprise about Winchester, only because Winchester is not too far away where I'm at and the role in the war.
57:54 --> 57:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Winchester is a very important strategic location as well in the civil wars.
57:58 --> 58:02 [SPEAKER_01]: There was like three or four battles that are fought in Winchester.
58:02 --> 58:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So I thought that was, you know, good old Winchester popping back up.
58:07 --> 58:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And then kind of what you were saying, the long prisoner of war walk of Bergoyne's troops to Charlottesville.
58:16 --> 58:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I can't believe how long
58:19 --> 58:22 [SPEAKER_01]: They walked and they go to Charlottesville.
58:22 --> 58:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I lived in Charlottesville for for over 10 years.
58:25 --> 58:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
58:26 --> 58:33 [SPEAKER_01]: and there's a shopping center called barracks that is in the region or area where this POW camp is.
58:34 --> 58:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And Thomas Jefferson was actually behind this idea of putting the camp in Charlesville.
58:40 --> 58:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
58:40 --> 58:46 [SPEAKER_01]: We felt kind of like today that you can get some good federal state funds to Charlesville.
58:46 --> 58:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's good for the economy because you need to house these people.
58:49 --> 58:50 [SPEAKER_01]: It's good for business.
58:50 --> 58:51 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a great economy around it.
58:51 --> 58:52 [SPEAKER_01]: exactly.
58:52 --> 58:57 [SPEAKER_01]: So I thought, wow, that's such a, but I didn't know much about it.
58:57 --> 58:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
58:57 --> 59:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Just that it was a prisoner of work camp.
59:00 --> 59:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
59:00 --> 59:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And then what did they say that that these people escaped melted away, we're pro, whatever.
59:06 --> 59:08 [SPEAKER_02]: And so by the end, there weren't many of them.
59:08 --> 59:11 [SPEAKER_02]: But then a lot of them's just stayed.
59:11 --> 59:14 [SPEAKER_02]: And then they were absorbed into the country.
59:14 --> 59:14 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
59:14 --> 59:15 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
59:15 --> 59:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
59:16 --> 59:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
59:17 --> 59:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And Jefferson invited some officers, hush and officers to Monticello.
59:22 --> 59:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
59:22 --> 59:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Part of this idea that, you know, turn.
59:25 --> 59:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
59:26 --> 59:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
59:26 --> 59:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
59:27 --> 59:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And so they would hang out, hang out a Montgello.
59:32 --> 59:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
59:33 --> 59:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
59:34 --> 59:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
59:36 --> 59:37 [SPEAKER_01]: good stuff.
59:37 --> 59:46 [SPEAKER_01]: So if we zoom out, uh, what are the stories burns is telling and how well, uh, for me, again, we can't do this alone.
59:47 --> 59:51 [SPEAKER_01]: That's part of the French story, right, which we, we can't ignore.
59:51 --> 59:53 [SPEAKER_01]: It's been said so many times, but it's really important.
59:54 --> 01:00:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And also, it's really interesting to me because we talk about a little bit about Philadelphia and then New York,
01:00:00 --> 01:00:05 [SPEAKER_01]: The British keep playing this loyalist hand, but they think they have, right?
01:00:05 --> 01:00:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So the loyalists will help us, the countryside, and the cities will rise up, and we will wipe the patriots away, and we win the war.
01:00:15 --> 01:00:16 [SPEAKER_01]: But that doesn't that fails.
01:00:17 --> 01:00:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Bon-Waw.
01:00:18 --> 01:00:31 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I think that then leads to probably the next episode where they go south, where there's more loyalists, and they have a little more effective way, and we talked about this in North Carolina in the last episode.
01:00:31 --> 01:00:38 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, they could just keep playing this thing, this card, and it's kind of a joker card in the way.
01:00:38 --> 01:00:42 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like sometimes a work, sometimes it doesn't really, it doesn't.
01:00:43 --> 01:01:08 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, those so those are, and then finally, the insidiousness of British occupation in cities that you, although to two David, of how badly that people really don't like them living in their house, taking their food, even some of the worst kinds of stuff that we learn about like rape.
01:01:08 --> 01:01:28 [SPEAKER_02]: And I won't go too much into that, but yeah, it's really insidious and just kind of, I think it's something that's baked into our, it is now baked into our national identity and culture, even though me not be activated, but I really feel like people are feeling that to agree when
01:01:28 --> 01:01:32 [SPEAKER_02]: the perception of massed federal agents.
01:01:32 --> 01:01:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't want to get to direct that at all.
01:01:35 --> 01:01:36 [SPEAKER_02]: But people don't like that.
01:01:36 --> 01:01:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Our Americans don't like that.
01:01:38 --> 01:01:40 [SPEAKER_02]: And they will not accept it over time, I think.
01:01:41 --> 01:01:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I agree.
01:01:41 --> 01:01:46 [SPEAKER_01]: It's now starting with this story of the American Revolution.
01:01:46 --> 01:01:48 [SPEAKER_01]: It gets baked into our identity.
01:01:49 --> 01:01:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.
01:01:50 --> 01:01:52 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I have on my end.
01:01:52 --> 01:01:53 [SPEAKER_01]: How about you?
01:01:53 --> 01:01:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Question of the just the brutality of the war.
01:01:56 --> 01:02:00 [SPEAKER_02]: I think is really being told well up into this point.
01:02:00 --> 01:02:12 [SPEAKER_02]: We're really getting into the civil war aspect of it now and we talk about neighbors who recognize each other on the battlefield and that, you know,
01:02:12 --> 01:02:21 [SPEAKER_02]: loyalist versus Patriot, you know, everybody's just getting riled up the six nation Confederacy coming apart.
01:02:22 --> 01:02:34 [SPEAKER_02]: And then part of that and we talked to touch on it before, but the painful irony that Native American communities who then fight for the Patriots are ultimately
01:02:35 --> 01:02:50 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I don't have enough words to describe the horror and the brutality that were dulled out by our government to Native Americans who fought for us, you know, some who fought for us.
01:02:51 --> 01:03:04 [SPEAKER_02]: And just that sort of evilness of, well, let's pick aside, okay, we're going to pick this side and then that side ultimately consumes you, consumes your lands and drives you
01:03:04 --> 01:03:10 [SPEAKER_02]: this country is founded on a bunch of ideals and then we go and deny those ideals to these other people who helped us.
01:03:10 --> 01:03:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Some of those people who helped us, quote unquote us.
01:03:14 --> 01:03:14 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
01:03:14 --> 01:03:15 [SPEAKER_01]: That's all right.
01:03:15 --> 01:03:18 [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's words and all as they say sometimes.
01:03:18 --> 01:03:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, which you know when we when we add those euphophisms to it like it kind of separates us from it and and so you know not trying to it's a difficult thing to describe and it
01:03:30 --> 01:03:38 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm going to steer away from the rest of that just to point out the fact that it's a painful irony that that's the reality.
01:03:38 --> 01:03:39 [SPEAKER_02]: That's what happened.
01:03:39 --> 01:03:40 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
01:03:40 --> 01:03:40 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
01:03:40 --> 01:03:45 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's important to talk about and see on television and share and talk exactly.
01:03:46 --> 01:04:01 [SPEAKER_02]: The other thing that the other two ideas that were there for me were the difficulty of managing an empire that is where you don't have instantaneous communications and even if you had instantaneous communications.
01:04:02 --> 01:04:08 [SPEAKER_02]: your generals or your leaders that you've empowered, they may have different ideas about what the strategies and objectives are.
01:04:09 --> 01:04:11 [SPEAKER_02]: That's not going in.
01:04:11 --> 01:04:12 [SPEAKER_02]: It leads to problems.
01:04:12 --> 01:04:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure does.
01:04:13 --> 01:04:20 [SPEAKER_02]: And then which ultimately allows Washington to pursue a strategy of winning by not losing.
01:04:20 --> 01:04:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Because he can
01:04:28 --> 01:04:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, it's great that I think it was Ellis the historian was the one who is saying that he just Washington can win just by not losing and that gives you more and some ways I guess rain of options.
01:04:47 --> 01:04:58 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it also puts on a, how, how would I say it, the, you know, the fact that he is tactfully retreating, it's not necessarily a bad thing.
01:04:58 --> 01:05:02 [SPEAKER_01]: We have this kind of myth that all you're retreating, you're retreating.
01:05:02 --> 01:05:03 [SPEAKER_01]: But,
01:05:04 --> 01:05:06 [SPEAKER_01]: In Washington's case, it's a good thing.
01:05:06 --> 01:05:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:05:07 --> 01:05:09 [SPEAKER_01]: He lived to fight in other days.
01:05:09 --> 01:05:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I said some of the other historians were saying.
01:05:11 --> 01:05:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, in any guerrilla war, and what comes to mind right now is the war in Vietnam that, you know, they could win by not losing.
01:05:22 --> 01:05:34 [SPEAKER_02]: by a through a creation drawing out constantly over and over and I'm sure there's other modern I'm sure there's other historical examples of of that from around but that's the one that jumps to my mind right now.
01:05:34 --> 01:05:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely absolutely I think our troops experience that a little bit in Afghanistan or Iraq right right as I think the Russians did as well oh sure that when they go and in Afghanistan's been a place where a lot of empires have uh...
01:05:48 --> 01:05:52 [SPEAKER_02]: spilled a lot of blood and not gotten any good outcomes.
01:05:53 --> 01:05:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Nope.
01:05:54 --> 01:05:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Or not achieved the outcomes that they set out to achieve.
01:05:56 --> 01:05:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Let me put it that way.
01:05:58 --> 01:05:58 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
01:05:58 --> 01:05:59 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
01:05:59 --> 01:06:01 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a graveyard for empires on that.
01:06:01 --> 01:06:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, what they've said.
01:06:02 --> 01:06:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:06:02 --> 01:06:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Received wisdom.
01:06:03 --> 01:06:03 [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
01:06:04 --> 01:06:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Good.
01:06:04 --> 01:06:05 [SPEAKER_02]: That's all I got.
01:06:06 --> 01:06:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Me too.
01:06:06 --> 01:06:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
01:06:07 --> 01:06:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we will catch up with you tomorrow for episode five or closing in.
01:06:13 --> 01:06:31 [SPEAKER_02]: I noticed they said last night the episode five is going to be Valley forage, which we all and everybody in my family all kind of winced at the words Valley forage, we're like, oh, that's going to be a tough subject because we have a modern mythology of the brutality of Valley forage, the Wincherv.
01:06:31 --> 01:06:33 [SPEAKER_02]: of George Washington's troops when turning in Valley forage.
01:06:33 --> 01:06:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a true test.
01:06:35 --> 01:06:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:06:36 --> 01:06:40 [SPEAKER_02]: So I mean, I can't imagine just your army like, oh, I'm going home.
01:06:40 --> 01:06:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
01:06:41 --> 01:06:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:06:41 --> 01:06:42 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just so mild to me.
01:06:43 --> 01:06:46 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you could then just melt back into the countryside.
01:06:46 --> 01:06:53 [SPEAKER_02]: And there was no, you know, the British didn't have sports forces to enforce any sort of law or regulation.
01:06:53 --> 01:06:54 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right, that's right.
01:06:54 --> 01:06:55 [SPEAKER_01]: There's no military police, right?
01:06:56 --> 01:06:57 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like you're just drift away.
01:06:57 --> 01:07:01 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like I'm, you know, sometimes they're caught, but all the time, so yeah, just forget it.
01:07:01 --> 01:07:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, okay.
01:07:02 --> 01:07:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, anyway, again, Brian, thank you so much for this.
01:07:06 --> 01:07:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you to everyone who is listening and following along.
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01:07:35 --> 01:07:38 [SPEAKER_02]: And we'll see you on episode five.
01:07:38 --> 01:07:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks Brian.
01:07:39 --> 01:07:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
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