When is it punk to be kind and rebellious to be optimistic? We welcome Lorehound and Wool-Shift-Dust co-host Elysia Brenner to do what she does best: deep dive on pop culture through angles nobody else is taking. Using the new Superman film as a starting point, we talk the literary movement “hopepunk” as a new form of counter-culture, and wonder at the musical aspects of this unique way of looking at stories. Be sure to check out the Lorehounds podcasts and catch us next week for a regular episode!
Music heard in this episode: Yeah Yeah Yeahs - “Heads Will Roll”, Led Zeppelin - “Ramble On”, Janelle Monae - “Crazy, Classic Life”, Frank Turner - “Punches”, Billy Bragg - “The Milkman Of Human Kindness”, The Mighty Crabjoys - “The Mighty Crabjoys Theme”, Teddybearts (feat. Iggy Pop) - “Punkrocker”, The Stooges - “Loose”, Public Image Ltd. - “Public Image”, Joy Division - “Love Will Tear Us Apart”, The Verve - “Bittersweet Symphony”
Send us your thoughts at NeverMusicPod@gmail.com
Nevermind the Music is part of The Lorehounds Network. Join the Nevermind the Music Discord channel by visiting thelorehounds.com
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00:00 --> 00:14 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I was just wondering if you think positive psychology is still a separate subject, or if it is infiltrated other things, and is that the goal of hope to infiltrate other things and to cease to exist?
00:15 --> 00:17 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's a really awesome question.
00:17 --> 00:18 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm happy to.
00:18 --> 00:20 [SPEAKER_02]: And podcast.
00:33 --> 00:33 [SPEAKER_08]: Hi, I'm Mark.
00:33 --> 00:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm Nicole, and this is never mind the music.
00:36 --> 00:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Who are we talking to today, Mark?
00:38 --> 00:59 [SPEAKER_08]: Who, indeed, we have another guest for this sidetrack, and we are super excited to welcome Alicia Brenner, one of the three heads of the hydra of the Laura Hound's network from many podcasts, including Laura Hound's plus, will shift us, plus, Star Wars Canon, Timeline podcast, plus,
01:00 --> 01:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Not at least just say hello in terms of what I haven't told you guys.
01:05 --> 01:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Stay tuned.
01:07 --> 01:10 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, a glad to be here, glad to be talking about this.
01:10 --> 01:14 [SPEAKER_03]: I sort of forced one of my geek interests down both of your throats.
01:16 --> 01:19 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for going along on this, flying along on this.
01:20 --> 01:21 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, anyway.
01:21 --> 01:22 [SPEAKER_08]: It's either accurate.
01:22 --> 01:25 [SPEAKER_08]: It's the poor person on the subway city next to you when you're on your way.
01:25 --> 01:25 [SPEAKER_08]: Somewhere.
01:25 --> 01:27 [SPEAKER_08]: Just like, oh, do we have to keep talking about?
01:28 --> 01:31 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, super happy to have you.
01:31 --> 01:34 [SPEAKER_08]: Everybody who listens to us and doesn't yet know the lorhounds.
01:35 --> 01:47 [SPEAKER_08]: If you think we overthink songs in a fun, delightful way, that is what the lorhounds are doing, which is why we join their network, except doing it mostly for movies and TV.
01:47 --> 01:48 [SPEAKER_08]: So what are you covering right now?
01:49 --> 01:51 [SPEAKER_03]: So that is an excellent question.
01:51 --> 02:15 [SPEAKER_03]: We will have just wrapped up with piecemaker and we may be will be covering some it welcome to dairy maybe not entirely sure but we will have definitely a packed December there's a usual end of year specials which I'm sure you guys will be participating in I hope with your rankings and and on Woolshift Dust.
02:16 --> 02:21 [SPEAKER_03]: Luke and I will be diving back in deep with all of the We've been doing dozens and dozens of adaptations of a Christmas Carol And we're gonna do.
02:21 --> 02:22 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that's cool.
02:22 --> 02:23 [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't more this year.
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02:39 --> 02:48 [SPEAKER_08]: maybe you should explain what we're talking about or do you want me or Nicole to try to do the back of the box summary.
02:48 --> 02:49 [SPEAKER_03]: No, sure.
02:49 --> 02:53 [SPEAKER_03]: So this is we're a side track spinning off of your blondie discussion.
02:53 --> 02:57 [SPEAKER_03]: We're talking a bit about what is punk, you know, and you tease that we're going to talk about this in a way.
02:58 --> 03:24 [SPEAKER_03]: I am deeply in love this year with the Superman movie and it's got me back in one of my favorite subgenres is Hope Punk and the Superman movie is all about Hope Punk so I mean there's there's the great scene where they they talk about it and you know and she says she was a punk kid and he's insist that he is and the question comes up like no you're not she being low as well
03:26 --> 03:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I was just some punk rock kid from Baker Line and you're Superman.
03:31 --> 03:32 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm punk rock.
03:33 --> 03:34 [SPEAKER_00]: You are, yeah, punk rock.
03:34 --> 03:38 [SPEAKER_00]: I like the triangle fellows and the P.O.D.s and the mighty crab joys.
03:38 --> 03:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Those are pop radio bands.
03:39 --> 03:40 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not punk rock.
03:40 --> 03:42 [SPEAKER_01]: The mighty crab joys suck.
03:42 --> 03:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, a lot of people love them.
03:45 --> 04:00 [SPEAKER_03]: And then for the rest of the movie, it's about him kind of questioning, like, what does it mean to, is being human being punk, and then, of course, it ends with, I mean, the assboy, I mean, I'm not spoiling the plot.
04:00 --> 04:01 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm spoiling the closing song.
04:01 --> 04:05 [SPEAKER_03]: It ends with, I'm a punk rocker with the teddy bears that they keep up.
04:06 --> 04:07 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
04:07 --> 04:28 [SPEAKER_08]: So we should say, so we are talking about and around Superman, the version from 2025, we're not going to spoil Superman except that there's a conversation about punk in the middle of it, which is surprising to me, but you don't have to have seen Superman to enjoy this conversation listeners, but it was pretty fun movie, so maybe go see Superman.
04:29 --> 04:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And that scene was really, really lovely.
04:31 --> 04:35 [SPEAKER_02]: It was a really tender moment between Superman, well, Clark Kent and Lois Lane, spoiler.
04:36 --> 04:45 [SPEAKER_02]: And she's saying, you know, we could never really work because I'm too punk rock and you're the opposite of punk rock, you're such a white, red, like, hopeful human.
04:45 --> 04:48 [SPEAKER_02]: And he said, like, hope is punk.
04:48 --> 04:51 [SPEAKER_01]: My point is I question everything and everyone.
04:52 --> 04:56 [SPEAKER_01]: You trust everyone and think everyone you've ever met
04:59 --> 04:59 [SPEAKER_01]: beautiful.
05:04 --> 05:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that's the real punk rock.
05:06 --> 05:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Like is it hope counter culture in some way?
05:10 --> 05:11 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not really resonated with me in it.
05:12 --> 05:33 [SPEAKER_02]: I've been thinking about it a lot, and I knew that we were going to talk about today, and I've just been thinking lately that may be being hopeful is punk rock, because no one seems to be that hopeful anymore, and you do feel like an outlier when you're like, no, I believe in humanity, so I'm really interested to hear more from that perspective.
05:33 --> 05:37 [SPEAKER_02]: It's the first time I've ever heard those words, you know, and made that connection.
05:38 --> 05:42 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'd love to hear more context behind this like genre of Hope Punk.
05:43 --> 05:47 [SPEAKER_08]: So are you saying that Superman, the movie is Hope Punk?
05:48 --> 05:57 [SPEAKER_08]: Like is that the sort of thesis and and you are advocating for Hope Punk as being not just the genre of literary fiction, but possibly of music as well.
05:57 --> 05:57 [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
05:57 --> 06:00 [SPEAKER_08]: This is kind of our art discourse today.
06:00 --> 06:00 [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
06:00 --> 06:05 [SPEAKER_08]: So I had never heard the term Hope Punk, but correct me if I'm wrong.
06:05 --> 06:06 [SPEAKER_08]: This is like
06:07 --> 06:14 [SPEAKER_08]: punk in the sense of they're being cyberpunk and steam punk and I actually got a list here.
06:14 --> 06:30 [SPEAKER_08]: I have the various relations of like science fiction or speculative fiction not necessarily directly linked to if you said pop punk or scop punk or hardcore punk or like different
06:32 --> 06:34 [SPEAKER_08]: subgenres of punk as a musical style.
06:34 --> 06:37 [SPEAKER_08]: This is more punk as a ethos as a vibe.
06:38 --> 06:38 [SPEAKER_08]: So to speak.
06:38 --> 06:39 [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
06:39 --> 06:39 [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
06:40 --> 06:45 [SPEAKER_03]: And it does, yeah, indeed it comes from cyberpunk was the father of this naming convention.
06:46 --> 06:47 [SPEAKER_03]: And it definitely comes from that.
06:47 --> 06:53 [SPEAKER_03]: But then, you know, it got me, I was talking also about the one of my favorite groups, the yeah, yeah, yes.
06:54 --> 07:00 [SPEAKER_03]: And questioning, like they are definitely not traditionally defined as punk, but some of their songs,
07:00 --> 07:06 [SPEAKER_03]: mean quite into what we would think of as the sound of punk.
07:22 --> 07:29 [SPEAKER_03]: I liked your, in the blondie episode, you talked about where people play defining what genre of a slotted is.
07:29 --> 07:30 [SPEAKER_07]: The scene, yeah.
07:30 --> 07:32 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, fine, that interesting.
07:32 --> 07:41 [SPEAKER_03]: But then if we think about punk as a message, as a, you know, like the, the, the, the, the appliance at a finance, I should say.
07:41 --> 07:43 [SPEAKER_03]: Right, you're defiantly punk.
07:44 --> 08:02 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, what is is punk in aesthetic is punk that you know like the mohoks and leather with spikes, you know, is punk and attitude is punk saying, if you to, I think I just think of spider punk from across a spider versus I hate the program.
08:02 --> 08:03 [SPEAKER_03]: I hate the PM.
08:04 --> 08:05 [SPEAKER_03]: So good.
08:05 --> 08:30 [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, I also wanted to bring up the just the songs in the the two songs a play during the credits in particular like are those is Iggy Pop punk is the song that Iggy Pop is in punk are the mighty Crabboard Joyce punk and that's the thing that the Superman movie did that was interesting to me is that it had this idea of hope punk, you know that's you're it's living throughout the movie the Superman is how hope punk this is one of the
08:34 --> 08:53 [SPEAKER_03]: But then it makes it more tied to music through that conversation that Lois and Clark have, you know, where they're literally talking about genres of specific bands and the mighty crab joys for anyone who doesn't know is a fictitious in universe DC band.
08:53 --> 08:59 [SPEAKER_02]: I was wondering that because I he referenced some band names and I was like, oh, maybe I just don't know them.
08:59 --> 09:10 [SPEAKER_02]: But it sounded so on the nose to that universe, this like kind of tongue-in-cheek almost like borderline campy universe that they've created.
09:10 --> 09:12 [SPEAKER_08]: It seems like they're lame, though.
09:12 --> 09:18 [SPEAKER_08]: Like most people would think of them as not actually very edgy, like fake edgy.
09:18 --> 09:21 [SPEAKER_08]: That's the vibe that I got from what Lois was saying about.
09:22 --> 09:35 [SPEAKER_03]: I have to say in creature commandos and animated series, it started off at DCU, the Frankenstein and the bride were both wearing mighty crab joys, T-shirts, and they're pretty badass.
09:35 --> 09:36 [SPEAKER_03]: That's totally cool.
09:36 --> 09:41 [SPEAKER_08]: I haven't seen it yet, so that was a lot of sentences that I didn't know how to make the Frankenstein as a character in DC.
09:41 --> 09:41 [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, all right.
09:42 --> 09:47 [SPEAKER_08]: We're going to, we're going to, sorry, a co-host of your genre that are like, he doesn't know about freaking Scott and his PC.
09:47 --> 09:48 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I don't.
09:48 --> 09:51 [SPEAKER_02]: When I think of Hope Pumpkin, he said something that really sparked me.
09:51 --> 09:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Pumpkin's defiant.
09:53 --> 09:56 [SPEAKER_02]: And right now, like being hopeful is defiant, right?
09:56 --> 10:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you think of the punk aesthetic, like does that define punk the vibe and the costuming of it?
10:02 --> 10:07 [SPEAKER_02]: They don't match like being hopeful in that vibe, that aesthetic doesn't match.
10:08 --> 10:11 [SPEAKER_02]: But I like that juxtaposition of it.
10:11 --> 10:17 [SPEAKER_08]: So let's talk about this first like grab our heads around it as a literary movement because I'm totally new to me.
10:17 --> 10:24 [SPEAKER_08]: But like when you say cyberpunk, for example, that's a term I was familiar with and have been people who don't know the term thing like.
10:25 --> 10:34 [SPEAKER_08]: would do Android's dream of electric sheep or, you know, blade runner be that that would be kind of the earth text for a lot of pop culture on what cyber punk is.
10:34 --> 10:39 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it comes from, it comes from Neuromancer, but yeah, it's okay.
10:39 --> 10:40 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, is that the original?
10:40 --> 10:42 [SPEAKER_08]: That's the origin of the term or just sort of thought.
10:42 --> 10:43 [SPEAKER_03]: It turned out.
10:43 --> 10:44 [SPEAKER_08]: Got it.
10:44 --> 10:44 [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
10:44 --> 10:55 [SPEAKER_08]: So, but then steam punk, right, which is like sort of almost a parody of that, which is retro futurist, like you've gotten Victorian age, except there's giant robots powered by steam.
10:55 --> 11:05 [SPEAKER_08]: All of these seem to have outsider aspects, rebellion aspects, things that are not like the punk in cyberpunk.
11:05 --> 11:07 [SPEAKER_08]: Is it just that they have spiky hair?
11:07 --> 11:08 [SPEAKER_08]: It's like that there.
11:08 --> 11:09 [SPEAKER_08]: It's you're
11:14 --> 11:20 [SPEAKER_08]: underbelly of the city there's like a kind of countercultural element in this literary movement.
11:20 --> 11:38 [SPEAKER_03]: Now let's say we have with Hopeunk the countercultural movement it's a genre that's especially popular in stories that feature you often find Hopeunk stories feature a lot of characters who feel like outsiders in society because they are LGBTQ or because they are people of color or
11:44 --> 11:56 [SPEAKER_03]: More of a progressive ideology, I suppose, of people just saying, like, let's accept each other as people, and that's often puts people on the outside of society, unfortunately.
11:56 --> 11:57 [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
11:58 --> 12:08 [SPEAKER_08]: It's interesting because if we think of resistance in our current moment, the thing that's more mainstream is more like run around in circles like you're here's on fire, right?
12:08 --> 12:22 [SPEAKER_08]: It's not hope it's oh my god things are falling apart and it almost to a certain extent it doesn't matter what side of the political spectrum you are, at least you're over in Europe, like they have different battles, but a lot of a lot of it is just oh my god things are going badly.
12:23 --> 12:47 [SPEAKER_02]: it's it's never hope really even if you're your political side happens to be in control and in given moment when you could argue that that's by design right so you know we talk about conflict theory and sociology that we're all meant to be fighting with each other and spiraling on the nationals or baby right so we like it's so we're distracted from teaming up and getting together and solving the real problem right
12:48 --> 12:59 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we think of those people on the statistical outskirts as outliers, but also maybe we're just being told that we're outliers and there's more of us than them, right?
12:59 --> 13:00 [SPEAKER_02]: But that's a bigger conversation.
13:00 --> 13:01 [SPEAKER_02]: I think.
13:02 --> 13:02 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
13:02 --> 13:20 [SPEAKER_08]: So another another thing that I think of when I think of punk, like we talked about this on the Blondey episode last week, like it's certain musical characteristic, but there's also the scene, Alicia brought that up, but also knows kind of a DIY self made aesthetic that goes with punk, like you could be a band that sounds.
13:21 --> 13:22 [SPEAKER_08]: outside of the norm.
13:22 --> 13:28 [SPEAKER_08]: Let's say in the late 70s, you know, you could be the talking heads, which is not the same as the Ramones, right?
13:28 --> 13:32 [SPEAKER_08]: But your punk, because you have this sort of scrappy, we're going to do this ourselves.
13:32 --> 13:42 [SPEAKER_08]: And then the 80s, you have a lot of indie record labels recording this music as punk or the derivatives of punk like hardcore and post punk in new wave, kind of proliferate, all that kind of stuff.
13:43 --> 13:49 [SPEAKER_08]: The DIY thing, when I think of Cyberpunk and Steampuck, I also often think of video games, right?
13:49 --> 13:52 [SPEAKER_08]: And I think of like building a gun or something in a shop.
13:52 --> 13:54 [SPEAKER_08]: Like there's kind of a build craft.
13:54 --> 13:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like aesthetic to it.
13:56 --> 13:58 [SPEAKER_02]: I went to like a high school robotics competition.
13:58 --> 13:59 [SPEAKER_02]: It was random.
14:00 --> 14:03 [SPEAKER_02]: But the style of all those kids was Steampunk.
14:04 --> 14:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Like that was there.
14:05 --> 14:05 [SPEAKER_02]: That's cool.
14:05 --> 14:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Which was Santa cool.
14:07 --> 14:10 [SPEAKER_08]: corsets and victorias across the past.
14:10 --> 14:14 [SPEAKER_03]: I went through, I went through an intense steam punk face.
14:14 --> 14:16 [SPEAKER_03]: So I have a cool aesthetic.
14:16 --> 14:19 [SPEAKER_08]: But like so I bring that up like that to me seems like an essential.
14:20 --> 14:24 [SPEAKER_08]: That's why, you know, you can never really truly have a corporate punk fan.
14:24 --> 14:31 [SPEAKER_08]: They stop being, I don't want to say musically, but like, do you lose your punk aesthetic when you have millions of dollars of marketing behind you, right?
14:32 --> 14:33 [SPEAKER_08]: Where is that with hope punk?
14:33 --> 14:34 [SPEAKER_08]: The DIY.
14:35 --> 14:40 [SPEAKER_08]: It relates to the resilience piece, maybe, right, or community building, things like that.
14:40 --> 14:54 [SPEAKER_03]: You know what, you know what it kind of makes me think of is I just learned that there was, oh, now I forget, of course, the term for this, but there's a term for, oh, it's something with folk and even though it's gone beyond just folk music.
14:54 --> 14:55 [SPEAKER_03]: but it's cottage core.
14:56 --> 15:10 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's basically like, and I realized that this is what we've been doing with the Wheel of Time for a long time, but it's basically making parodies of science fiction and, you know, like, that was based on your science.
15:11 --> 15:14 [SPEAKER_08]: Like, books, songs about fantasy and stuff.
15:14 --> 15:15 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
15:15 --> 15:15 [SPEAKER_08]: Silk?
15:16 --> 15:17 [SPEAKER_03]: Silk, that's what I'm thinking.
15:17 --> 15:18 [SPEAKER_03]: Silk, thank you.
15:18 --> 15:22 [SPEAKER_08]: Like you go to a con and like people are playing folk songs that are like about the Lord of the Rings.
15:22 --> 15:23 [SPEAKER_08]: We're going to be out of Philx.
15:24 --> 15:24 [SPEAKER_08]: We're still keen.
15:24 --> 15:26 [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know what the verb would be there.
15:26 --> 15:29 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like literally never heard this word before in my life.
15:29 --> 15:31 [SPEAKER_02]: So thanks for exposing it to me.
15:32 --> 15:34 [SPEAKER_08]: You need to go to some science fiction comments.
15:34 --> 15:35 [SPEAKER_02]: I would love to.
15:36 --> 15:38 [SPEAKER_02]: I am like in Troy costume ready to go.
15:38 --> 15:39 [SPEAKER_08]: But the D1, there is a DIY there.
15:39 --> 15:41 [SPEAKER_08]: There is something in kind of...
15:42 --> 15:48 [SPEAKER_08]: fantasy and sci-fi just baked in that was very DIY because it's so many years and frankly before our era, right?
15:49 --> 15:51 [SPEAKER_08]: Like all of us were born after Star Wars was a thing, right?
15:51 --> 16:07 [SPEAKER_08]: So it was all science fiction was already like big business even though it took till the 2000s till like you got like real big business the nerds taking over kind of the media companies in a sense, but I think it was just very underground at first, right?
16:07 --> 16:08 [SPEAKER_08]: And so it was that
16:08 --> 16:10 [SPEAKER_08]: Well, we're going to make it ourselves.
16:10 --> 16:11 [SPEAKER_08]: We're going to make a tabletop game.
16:11 --> 16:18 [SPEAKER_08]: We're going to make our own folk songs about Lord of the Rings because it's not like there was anybody recording.
16:18 --> 16:21 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, not the record labels aren't knocking on your door for that.
16:24 --> 16:27 [SPEAKER_08]: Isn't there like a Lord of the Rings Led Zeppelin song, though?
16:38 --> 16:40 [SPEAKER_05]: What's going on at the evil wall?
16:41 --> 16:44 [SPEAKER_05]: Cramped up a slip-to-way with her.
16:44 --> 16:47 [SPEAKER_05]: Ah, ha, ha, ha, ha, yeah.
16:48 --> 16:53 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, no, I mean, this is true that the big bands have done it as well, but that's not what made them famous.
16:53 --> 16:57 [SPEAKER_03]: And I realized that we've been doing that for years with Wheel of Time.
16:57 --> 17:02 [SPEAKER_03]: We do all these Wheel of Time song parodies and doing covers of their music and stuff.
17:02 --> 17:05 [SPEAKER_03]: And I had never heard the word Philk until I
17:08 --> 17:14 [SPEAKER_02]: What is that like a combination of like folk mixed with what like how do we get to the word filth because it's pretty unsavery.
17:15 --> 17:16 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like a weird word.
17:16 --> 17:19 [SPEAKER_08]: It emerged as a typographical error according to.
17:19 --> 17:24 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, like it probably was somebody wrote the word folk and they messed up or something.
17:24 --> 17:45 [SPEAKER_08]: But this is just literally, I just opened, you know, in college, I can remember literally like working the cast register at a convention because my friend was like, hey, let's go to this stuff I can mention, I was like, okay, whatever, if we get free tickets if you volunteer and run the and so I was like working merch for a few hours and then wanted around this for the rest of the weekend or whatever and yeah, there were people playing.
17:46 --> 18:02 [SPEAKER_08]: music and that was the term folk and I just like intersected with it briefly and that was it was this whole world right subcultures are a vital part of any kind of musical endeavor but this happens to not be one that ever really rose to prominence commercially.
18:02 --> 18:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Imagine if Mark has like a whole second life like a secret life like he's getting off this podcast and he's gonna go put his like filth costume on and go to the conventions because like finally I didn't blow my cover in this morning.
18:14 --> 18:17 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that sounds like a great second life.
18:17 --> 18:19 [SPEAKER_02]: I would time for this.
18:19 --> 18:22 [SPEAKER_02]: I think we should go like I'm into it.
18:22 --> 18:25 [SPEAKER_08]: What am I doing if I have a secret second life as a musician?
18:25 --> 18:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Like a secret family.
18:26 --> 18:30 [SPEAKER_08]: Secret second life be something different or something like that makes money.
18:30 --> 18:32 [SPEAKER_08]: And that's like a secret second.
18:32 --> 18:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Second life.
18:33 --> 18:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Like at the Philip convention.
18:35 --> 18:38 [SPEAKER_08]: So, can I ask you about, um, sorry.
18:39 --> 18:40 [SPEAKER_08]: No real bright.
18:41 --> 19:03 [SPEAKER_08]: Is that a term that you've, because I was just looking around at, again, until you propose this topic I've never heard of, Hope Punk, and although you said you're a fan, so I actually would love you to shout out some, some like works that are Hope Punk, but I encountered this term Noble Bright, and I wanted to put forward like, if Superman is Hope Punk, is he not actually, is the story not Noble Bright?
19:03 --> 19:09 [SPEAKER_08]: Like, what I could find is Noble Bright is a subgenre of fantasy or stuff like, you know,
19:10 --> 19:16 [SPEAKER_08]: where the good fights are worth fighting and can be won, but it's hero's centric.
19:16 --> 19:20 [SPEAKER_08]: Instead of like I don't remember which article I was on, but
19:21 --> 19:24 [SPEAKER_08]: as opposed to kind of collective centric.
19:24 --> 19:32 [SPEAKER_08]: So the example that I saw was like, Aragorn, if you, is Aragorn as your main character, Aragorn from the Lord of the Rings, that is a noble bright story.
19:32 --> 19:38 [SPEAKER_08]: If the Hobbits are your main character, the Lord of the Rings is a hope punk story, sort of.
19:38 --> 19:46 [SPEAKER_08]: Like as a good one, win against diversity, we each have cause to hope, but it's not focusing on heroic acts of one person.
19:46 --> 19:48 [SPEAKER_03]: It's focusing on people collecting it.
19:51 --> 19:53 [SPEAKER_08]: I know he's got his super hero team.
19:53 --> 19:55 [SPEAKER_03]: You watched it.
19:55 --> 19:55 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
19:55 --> 20:02 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it is about this in general, it's specifically now, okay.
20:02 --> 20:07 [SPEAKER_03]: This mild spoiler here for a big discussion that Superman and Lois have toward the beginning.
20:07 --> 20:09 [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's probably the same punk discussion.
20:10 --> 20:33 [SPEAKER_03]: uh... where he's talking about this is one of the premises for the movie so this isn't really not a big big spoiler but this movie starts shortly after he has taken unilateral solo action against the leader of another nation and lois is there screaming in his face basically telling trying to get him to understand you cannot do that you cannot just decide things on your own
20:34 --> 20:46 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I'd say that that's a major theme of this movie is that he does need to and in in in the end yeah he needs to work with the other super heroes and that's how they find they accomplish their goal is by working together.
21:04 --> 21:06 [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, so I mentioned it.
21:06 --> 21:12 [SPEAKER_08]: Can you like, what do you, we talked about, you know, neural mancer or whatever, uh, Blade Runner.
21:12 --> 21:19 [SPEAKER_08]: That's a standard bearer of hope punk as a literary genre, or not musical genre.
21:20 --> 21:22 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, let me see.
21:22 --> 21:27 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, okay, so the first things that I tend to think of are actually some podcasts that I listen to.
21:28 --> 21:33 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I like Gideon Media does some hope punk stuff.
21:33 --> 21:36 [SPEAKER_03]: I really like the give me a way podcast.
21:38 --> 21:44 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, it's just a tends to be often these are stories set in outer space.
21:46 --> 21:54 [SPEAKER_03]: where it is about, you know, a diverse group of people who has to work together.
21:54 --> 22:02 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think one of the hallmarks of this type of storytelling is that you see people disagree, but then,
22:03 --> 22:04 [SPEAKER_03]: you know, there are assholes.
22:05 --> 22:05 [SPEAKER_03]: There are villains.
22:05 --> 22:06 [SPEAKER_03]: There are antagonists.
22:06 --> 22:14 [SPEAKER_03]: But most of the time, it's people like, I really disagree with you right now, but that doesn't mean that I love you any less, you know, that's not that.
22:15 --> 22:20 [SPEAKER_03]: That's sort of the hallmarks of hope to me in terms of seminal works.
22:20 --> 22:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
22:20 --> 22:25 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I guess, you know, I think the Lord of the Rings is, say, is a good example.
22:25 --> 22:27 [SPEAKER_08]: So like way, way earlier than the term.
22:28 --> 22:45 [SPEAKER_03]: right way earlier than the term yeah i mean i i don't actually know what the original etymology is other than i i think just being the opposite of grim dark i think grim dark emerged as you know you you're familiar with that i'm sure right mm-hmm yeah so for me grim dark is like
22:46 --> 22:53 [SPEAKER_08]: I never played but like Warhammer 40k where like everybody's evil or even even game of thrones is sort of dark, right?
22:53 --> 23:00 [SPEAKER_08]: It's like it's like fantasy but not bright and shiny like evil and dark and this is the kind of the pessimistic.
23:00 --> 23:00 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
23:00 --> 23:09 [SPEAKER_08]: So I did find that term was pretty recently coined Alexandra Rowland, who's a fantasy author just coined it in a, I guess like a blog post, 2017.
23:10 --> 23:10 [SPEAKER_08]: It feels sort of.
23:13 --> 23:27 [SPEAKER_08]: Trump era response from a literary person in the sense, if I can say that without getting too political like this started with a lot of let's run around with our hair on fire happening in certain circles in the United States.
23:27 --> 23:36 [SPEAKER_08]: And so I guess there's a movement among some creators to push back and actually say no, let's be positive and and work towards collective
23:39 --> 23:47 [SPEAKER_08]: one way without having like read all of the writings about this that that's the sort of the vibe I got and it's interestingly timed right 2017.
23:47 --> 24:06 [SPEAKER_02]: But it really goes back to like this whole school of positive psychology and think about like growth mindset and even the fact that we have the ability to change and that goes back to even like human more person-centered psychology like way back and well maybe like a hundred years ago in our history.
24:07 --> 24:22 [SPEAKER_02]: like Carl Rogers and person centred therapy and that he said in order to be the most effective version of ourselves as clinicians we need to offer what he called an unconditional positive regard to the people who are working with and believe in them even when they're at their worst.
24:23 --> 24:37 [SPEAKER_02]: and offer them the most generous explanation and defaults to the most generous explanation for their behaviors and not immediately go dark like and see the light sooner than the dark in every circumstance even in like the really objectively dark circumstances.
24:38 --> 24:42 [SPEAKER_02]: So this is reminding me of that a little bit in this idea that
24:43 --> 24:46 [SPEAKER_02]: you can just offer an unconditional positive regard to others.
24:46 --> 24:51 [SPEAKER_02]: I was just checking out this give me a way podcast in the tagline.
24:51 --> 24:55 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a screaming spaceship in a world of radical hospitality.
24:57 --> 25:04 [SPEAKER_02]: And I really, like, I'm into that, like, radical hospitality in kind of people, especially when they're mean to you.
25:05 --> 25:17 [SPEAKER_03]: Also, you know, the premise of it just basically is that, yeah, there's this spaceship lens on earth and they find essentially a hard drive with like these souls being tortured inside and a sort of punishment prison.
25:18 --> 25:24 [SPEAKER_03]: And so the only way to get them out is if people volunteer to like, download one of the
25:26 --> 25:28 [SPEAKER_03]: two entities sharing one body.
25:29 --> 25:29 [SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
25:29 --> 25:31 [SPEAKER_03]: But they made my radical husband.
25:31 --> 25:32 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that's awesome.
25:33 --> 25:34 [SPEAKER_08]: Audio drama, basically.
25:34 --> 25:35 [SPEAKER_03]: It's an audio drama.
25:35 --> 25:35 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
25:35 --> 25:35 [SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
25:36 --> 25:40 [SPEAKER_03]: So you want to hear something funny about a piece of Alicia Lourdes.
25:40 --> 25:47 [SPEAKER_03]: I actually was at Penn as positive psychology at the University of Pennsylvania as the positive psychology was being coined.
25:47 --> 25:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
25:47 --> 25:50 [SPEAKER_03]: Like Martin Seligman and that whole crew.
25:51 --> 25:54 [SPEAKER_03]: But instead of doing that course, I did a course in serial killer.
25:55 --> 25:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh,
25:57 --> 26:11 [SPEAKER_02]: No, you penned out like the cool school of happiness now and a lot of like the the research in positive psychology and Martin Seligman if I'm not sure if he's still teaching, but he's like the father of this and really make there.
26:11 --> 26:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, really well-branded himself is like the guy.
26:15 --> 26:19 [SPEAKER_02]: They have a school of happiness that you, the classes that they offer are really fascinating.
26:19 --> 26:21 [SPEAKER_02]: They do really fascinating research.
26:21 --> 26:23 [SPEAKER_02]: You can check out their website.
26:23 --> 26:27 [SPEAKER_02]: They have all these cool assessments, it's like how to gauge success and gauge happiness.
26:27 --> 26:28 [SPEAKER_02]: It's really fascinating.
26:29 --> 26:30 [SPEAKER_02]: That's cool that you were there.
26:30 --> 26:33 [SPEAKER_02]: I would have picked the serial killer class, too, though, for sure.
26:34 --> 26:35 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a winner.
26:35 --> 26:37 [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't have a was really popular at the time.
26:37 --> 26:40 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, there was waiting list and stuff, and that was part of the factor, too, you know.
26:41 --> 26:48 [SPEAKER_03]: But I also had no idea that it was going to blow up as such a concept outside the university and around the world.
26:49 --> 26:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
26:49 --> 26:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, people really want to see the best in each other, and I think that we're conditioned to think otherwise, but when you talk to people one-on-one, people want to be hopeful.
26:58 --> 27:03 [SPEAKER_02]: We want to default to that most generous explanation, right?
27:03 --> 27:10 [SPEAKER_02]: We want to default to like the most hopeful explanation I think anyway, and I think we're just being told otherwise for various reasons.
27:10 --> 27:16 [SPEAKER_08]: That might just make it funny when you're an undergraduate in particular, and you have no idea that like,
27:17 --> 27:37 [SPEAKER_08]: there's this famous person teaching you and you're just like not I can remember being on a plane flying must have been flying home for the holidays or something like that and someone like across the whatever I was studying frantically for some final must have been Thanksgiving or something finals coming up something like that and some are you reading so it's always like yeah I'm in their class and there's like whoa whoa and I'm like
27:38 --> 27:40 [SPEAKER_08]: Maybe I should actually go to this class sometimes.
27:41 --> 27:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry mom if you listening.
27:42 --> 27:45 [SPEAKER_08]: Like maybe I shouldn't blow off this class because like wait, this guy's famous.
27:45 --> 27:46 [SPEAKER_08]: You have no idea, right?
27:46 --> 27:49 [SPEAKER_08]: You're just like, I'm just in this class because I have to be in this class.
27:49 --> 27:57 [SPEAKER_02]: It's your same mark too that you've had the chance to take like a, like the guy from Bad Religion has like a PhD in astrophysics or something.
27:57 --> 27:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it's not that.
27:58 --> 27:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Why do you?
28:00 --> 28:10 [SPEAKER_08]: He was a post doc while I was a graduate student, and so I could have theoretically wandered over and enrolled in like evolutionary biology or zoology, but I didn't know.
28:10 --> 28:12 [SPEAKER_08]: A different kind of famous too, punk.
28:12 --> 28:14 [SPEAKER_08]: Speaking of punk, speaking of punk though.
28:15 --> 28:18 [SPEAKER_07]: Well, okay, it's now I want to talk about the music and like what is punk?
28:20 --> 28:45 [SPEAKER_08]: what is is hope punk a style of music right that's kind of one that started with and why we're talking about on this podcast and just a lorowns podcast that would be about a superman which by the way, if you watch it there's a great podcast they did about it is it's just you and john or do some of the other just you to yeah it was it was a great podcast so i actually found a box article that purported to list
28:46 --> 28:49 [SPEAKER_08]: a bunch of hope punk music.
28:49 --> 28:50 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
28:50 --> 28:54 [SPEAKER_08]: And I wanted to put them out there maybe a couple samples I can pipe in, but I don't know.
28:55 --> 28:59 [SPEAKER_08]: You all tell me because this is the sort of like what is punk universal question.
29:00 --> 29:09 [SPEAKER_08]: They listed some songs by artists such as The Mountain Goats, Billy Bragg, Frank Turner, Janelle Mone, Mimi Page,
29:13 --> 29:16 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how to know money, I don't know how to know money.
29:16 --> 29:23 [SPEAKER_08]: Genome, not necessarily thought of as particularly punk in the sense of like musical style, right?
29:24 --> 29:24 [SPEAKER_03]: More.
29:25 --> 29:32 [SPEAKER_08]: There's diversity there in what she does, but more kind of on the R&B hip hop dance music, kind of experimental, but.
29:33 --> 29:57 [SPEAKER_08]: her stuff is all super also especially those early albums after a futurist like concept albums where there's and droids and like what is humanity so it intersects with this kind of dystopian world and perseverance of the characters in that concept album but I feel like that's a lyrical contextual hope punk not musically really necessarily
30:21 --> 30:33 [SPEAKER_08]: And of those that I listed, the only ones that really seemed punk adjacent in terms of what we in 2025 think of his punk music would be like Frank Turner, his style is sort of punky.
30:57 --> 30:58 [SPEAKER_08]: Billy Bragg.
30:59 --> 31:01 [SPEAKER_08]: Also, if you've heard Billy Bragg kind of punky.
31:23 --> 31:34 [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know, it seems like people are thinking of it more for the vibe and the lyrical framing and things like that rather than like a sub genre of a music, right?
31:34 --> 31:35 [SPEAKER_08]: Where it is, a kind of punk music.
31:36 --> 31:40 [SPEAKER_08]: It's not really necessarily that as much as it's ideas that have blood into other style.
31:41 --> 31:41 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know about them.
31:42 --> 31:45 [SPEAKER_03]: The mighty crab joys song on the Superman soundtrack.
31:46 --> 31:50 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that's made up for the movie, but it's got it's got the punkish vibe.
31:50 --> 31:59 [SPEAKER_03]: It's got like, you know, they're dressed like punk or, you know, with the spiked hair and and just the typical punk dress.
32:00 --> 32:02 [SPEAKER_03]: It's called a punk band in universe.
32:02 --> 32:03 [SPEAKER_03]: Do they qualify as hope punk?
32:04 --> 32:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm looking at some images of the mighty crab drought right now and it seems like so appropriately fitting for as a punk band in this universe.
32:13 --> 32:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Like there's their punky enough and they're giving like the nods to punk culture, but they're also seem very sterile and very like polished.
32:23 --> 32:25 [SPEAKER_03]: But that's why Lowe said they're not punk.
32:26 --> 32:26 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
32:26 --> 32:27 [SPEAKER_08]: This is what they sound like.
32:35 --> 32:36 [SPEAKER_07]: I love everything about that.
32:36 --> 32:36 [SPEAKER_07]: It's so sterile.
32:36 --> 32:56 [SPEAKER_05]: And the like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh
32:57 --> 32:59 [SPEAKER_08]: But it's such an affectation, right?
32:59 --> 33:09 [SPEAKER_08]: That's what you expect and like some like dive bar, like it like an Irish punk band in Boston and some dive bar maybe would do the way it was, right?
33:10 --> 33:12 [SPEAKER_02]: A sanitized stereotypical punk.
33:12 --> 33:15 [SPEAKER_08]: It's almost a parody of pop-up, right?
33:15 --> 33:16 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's clean.
33:16 --> 33:21 [SPEAKER_08]: At what point do you lose the punk, but keep the sound of punk, right?
33:22 --> 33:25 [SPEAKER_08]: So I don't know, I mean, it's, but what makes this hope punk?
33:25 --> 33:29 [SPEAKER_08]: That's the thing that I don't like, it's, it could be happy, positive punk.
33:31 --> 33:51 [SPEAKER_03]: why hope punk right i mean i think it is going to have to come down to lyrics and intent to like um... i don't know it starts with we're on a planet of our own that we made from the bones of the ones that we cared um... i mean it just sort of about we're going to create something new out of uh... the destruction around us
33:53 --> 33:59 [SPEAKER_03]: What okay, so if you guys agree with Lois, you are anti-supermen, that's fine.
33:59 --> 34:00 [SPEAKER_03]: I'll tell him at our next meeting.
34:02 --> 34:07 [SPEAKER_08]: No, so it's like, the question of whether this is hope punk is different from the question of whether this is punk.
34:07 --> 34:08 [SPEAKER_03]: No, no.
34:08 --> 34:14 [SPEAKER_03]: That's, and then let's bring in the other song from the credits, the Teddy Bears with Iggy Pop.
34:40 --> 34:45 [SPEAKER_03]: So I'll say, yeah, the teddy bears real group have their background and hardcore punk.
34:46 --> 34:49 [SPEAKER_03]: Iggy Pop obviously called the godfather of punk.
34:49 --> 34:53 [SPEAKER_03]: This song he's saying I am a punk rocker, but the musically.
34:54 --> 34:55 [SPEAKER_03]: What do you think?
34:55 --> 34:59 [SPEAKER_02]: I hadn't heard that song before this film, and I really like it.
34:59 --> 35:00 [SPEAKER_02]: I like it.
35:00 --> 35:01 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a new song for the film, yeah.
35:02 --> 35:03 [SPEAKER_02]: That's awesome.
35:03 --> 35:05 [SPEAKER_02]: I think the teddy bears are cool.
35:05 --> 35:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the DIY piece.
35:08 --> 35:10 [SPEAKER_02]: They're like performance, and they're costuming.
35:10 --> 35:11 [SPEAKER_02]: I think is really interesting.
35:11 --> 35:11 [SPEAKER_02]: And...
35:13 --> 35:19 [SPEAKER_02]: The lyrics are very affirming here, but the tone is a little bit more dissonant.
35:19 --> 35:22 [SPEAKER_02]: And I agree that with punk rock, like a little bit scratchier and heavier.
35:22 --> 35:25 [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't feel as sanitized to me.
35:26 --> 35:27 [SPEAKER_02]: So is that punk?
35:28 --> 35:28 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think it.
35:29 --> 35:34 [SPEAKER_02]: just because of who it's attached to it, can you have to, it has to be Mark, what do you think?
35:35 --> 35:38 [SPEAKER_08]: So not to be that guy, but this is not a new song for the film.
35:38 --> 35:39 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh no, it's not okay.
35:40 --> 35:40 [SPEAKER_08]: No, this is from 2006.
35:40 --> 35:43 [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, I didn't know that.
35:43 --> 35:45 [SPEAKER_08]: So it is a second version.
35:46 --> 35:49 [SPEAKER_08]: They have an earlier version without Iggy Pop, and then they added Iggy Pop, because
35:50 --> 35:52 [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know the Teddy, do you know the teddy bears?
35:53 --> 35:54 [SPEAKER_08]: They're from Stockholm.
35:55 --> 35:56 [SPEAKER_08]: So, is that how you say it?
35:57 --> 35:57 [SPEAKER_08]: That's the German way.
35:58 --> 35:59 [SPEAKER_08]: They're from Stockholm.
35:59 --> 36:00 [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know what I did.
36:00 --> 36:01 [SPEAKER_07]: You know what I did?
36:01 --> 36:02 [SPEAKER_08]: You know what I did?
36:02 --> 36:09 [SPEAKER_08]: There's no one on guard mid 20th century composer called Stockhausen, and you like, when you're in grad school, talking about experimental music, you're like training yourself.
36:09 --> 36:10 [SPEAKER_08]: Don't say Stockhausen.
36:10 --> 36:11 [SPEAKER_08]: Say Stockhausen.
36:11 --> 36:15 [SPEAKER_08]: And so now, anytime, let's go to the Stockyard, like I have which I don't say though.
36:16 --> 36:17 [SPEAKER_03]: I grew up with a...
36:17 --> 36:22 [SPEAKER_03]: Slightly Germanic accent and I didn't realize it which I mean it makes sense Give it a pinch.
36:22 --> 36:35 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but I had I used to say street and stream all the time until some until I realized oh, that's So stop on so So there's Swedish so okay.
36:35 --> 36:36 [SPEAKER_08]: What do I think of this song?
36:36 --> 36:43 [SPEAKER_08]: So this is fascinating to me actually because Results cool song Iggy pop is like
36:44 --> 36:48 [SPEAKER_08]: Proto punk, the students, like the term didn't exist yet.
36:48 --> 36:53 [SPEAKER_08]: And they were kind of punk in the same way that you could say some velvet underground is like that, too, right?
36:54 --> 36:58 [SPEAKER_08]: Where it's punk kind of sounding, but it leads to the style later.
36:58 --> 37:00 [SPEAKER_08]: Now move to the district of the world.
37:00 --> 37:10 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
37:11 --> 37:15 [SPEAKER_06]: Stupid, deep inside Cause I'm loose
37:18 --> 37:24 [SPEAKER_08]: He's kind of at the beginning, but then this song to me sounds like almost what I would call postpunk.
37:24 --> 37:25 [SPEAKER_08]: So postpunk is a term.
37:25 --> 37:29 [SPEAKER_08]: It didn't come up in our body conversation even though it's contemporaneous.
37:29 --> 37:39 [SPEAKER_08]: Like kind of new-wave-ish postpunk is Think honestly some early YouTube or like the Smiths, but think like what when I think of postpunk.
37:39 --> 37:41 [SPEAKER_08]: I think of like public image limited.
38:01 --> 38:06 [SPEAKER_08]: or maybe the most popular would be like level terrace apart by joy division.
38:28 --> 38:34 [SPEAKER_03]: I loved your decision, but I've also heard, yeah, yes, to bring it back around called post punk.
38:34 --> 38:35 [SPEAKER_08]: I post punk.
38:35 --> 38:41 [SPEAKER_08]: So, so what it has is it has the driving incessant music terminology thing would be eighth notes.
38:43 --> 38:50 [SPEAKER_08]: That's like if all the early punk bands sound a different, the thing that survived the late 70s and became punk is driving eighth notes.
38:51 --> 39:02 [SPEAKER_08]: It also has really heavy bass, which a lot of the posts, but even I mentioned early you too, like really heavy bass and some synths and it's like kind of poppy but also dark.
39:02 --> 39:03 [SPEAKER_08]: And that's the difference.
39:03 --> 39:14 [SPEAKER_08]: Whereas if new wave is like quirky, a little experimental and a little poppy, post punk was more a little sad, a little darker, a little more goth.
39:14 --> 39:38 [SPEAKER_08]: right and and a little heavier emotionally and so that this song you say hope punk but and and I get it because the lyrics and some of the lyrics are really work for that like talking about listening with no fear and like there's a confidence in there yeah but there's also kind of like a weight to it that I just it's funny to think like Iggy Pop is proto and Iggy Pop as
39:42 --> 39:43 [SPEAKER_08]: I think the song is a lot.
39:43 --> 39:47 [SPEAKER_08]: There's a lot of punk in the song, you know, this is, you say they play some hardcore.
39:47 --> 39:48 [SPEAKER_08]: They're also sort of like electronic.
39:49 --> 39:50 [SPEAKER_03]: It turns it.
39:50 --> 39:57 [SPEAKER_03]: It also fits into that conversation of the changing over time, because these are the teddy bears and Iggy Popper well into their careers.
39:58 --> 40:00 [SPEAKER_08]: And they're like, yeah.
40:00 --> 40:02 [SPEAKER_08]: But like, is this hope punk?
40:02 --> 40:04 [SPEAKER_08]: Maybe, I don't know.
40:04 --> 40:08 [SPEAKER_08]: I think this is more punk than the mighty crab joysteam is.
40:23 --> 40:27 [SPEAKER_03]: You just made me think of another favorite song of mine that has the same.
40:27 --> 40:33 [SPEAKER_03]: I just, it's a song that's, uh, I quoted all the time because it has one of my favorite lyrics of all time.
40:33 --> 40:36 [SPEAKER_03]: I need some sounds that recognize the pain in me, yeah.
40:37 --> 40:40 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's, yeah, I'm talking about bittersweet symphony by The Verve.
40:54 --> 40:59 [SPEAKER_05]: Shall it cleanse my mind, Dr. Freemey?
41:03 --> 41:26 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's, when you listen to the lyrics, it is, and it does have like, I would, you know, it has these, I like songs with a minor key, and I guess, but there's also something uplifting on it about it that like, I used to love to listen to it while driving, you know, it's almost like, oh, yeah, it would make me feel elated in a way, even though they're, it's recognizing the darkness.
41:26 --> 41:28 [SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like that's sort of a whole, whole punk is about.
41:29 --> 41:30 [SPEAKER_03]: Is it's not denying?
41:31 --> 41:40 [SPEAKER_03]: what's wrong with the world or what's wrong with the situation, but it's like how do we deal with this darkness in person if you're through?
41:40 --> 41:51 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like looking at the darkness in the world through a realistic lens and saying it exists it's here and if we all gather together we can overcome it but we do need to gather together to overcome it.
41:51 --> 41:53 [SPEAKER_08]: I choose like I choose to be kind.
41:54 --> 41:59 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, choose in the face of that not ignoring it, but because of it on some level, right?
41:59 --> 42:01 [SPEAKER_02]: like kindness is radical.
42:02 --> 42:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, right.
42:03 --> 42:10 [SPEAKER_08]: You know, and I should just say like in terms of people listeners that are fans of punk, these are probably thinking of many.
42:10 --> 42:14 [SPEAKER_08]: There's many like kind of we shall overcome kind of punk albums.
42:14 --> 42:14 [SPEAKER_08]: Think like,
42:15 --> 42:32 [SPEAKER_08]: bands like I think like Pennywise, I know the rise against has a, even though they have a lot of skating political commentary, there's also sort of positivity, our own season one green day episode, I would say waiting by green day is relentlessly positive, right?
42:33 --> 42:38 [SPEAKER_08]: It's how punk it is, you know, it's that era of green days less punk than some, but in terms of music, but it's still
42:39 --> 42:39 [SPEAKER_08]: punk.
42:39 --> 42:45 [SPEAKER_08]: I think dropkick Murphy's has some a lot of positivity and face of oppression to it.
42:45 --> 42:46 [SPEAKER_08]: I think the clash is the same.
42:47 --> 42:50 [SPEAKER_08]: So, is it about yourself identification?
42:50 --> 43:02 [SPEAKER_08]: Like are these anthemic songs that I'm describing, hope, punk, or is it like you embrace the identity and that makes you hope punk, which would be a more post-2017 thing, right?
43:02 --> 43:03 [SPEAKER_02]: I like that.
43:03 --> 43:06 [SPEAKER_02]: I like the you embrace the identity and that makes you more hope punk.
43:07 --> 43:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that that can override the way the songs constructed, the literature's constructed, your outfits constructed.
43:13 --> 43:14 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's like comes from within.
43:15 --> 43:18 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that that's a really punk thing as being authentically who you are.
43:19 --> 43:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe I'll say again, like right now, it's counter-culture to be authentically kind.
43:26 --> 43:33 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I guess the question also, you know, it's like, is literature published before the invention of the term science fiction?
43:33 --> 43:36 [SPEAKER_03]: Still science fiction, if it deals with the same themes.
43:37 --> 43:44 [SPEAKER_03]: And to me, I would say yes, that we tweak our language of how we talk about things, but it doesn't mean they didn't exist until we named them.
43:46 --> 43:46 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
43:46 --> 44:02 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, but it is interesting like musically what makes this dude is not punk but television is and some of it is the trapped in time a term is like terms do like I think there's something about hope punk that is post 2017.
44:02 --> 44:02 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
44:04 --> 44:08 [SPEAKER_08]: that is existing in a social media fueled world that didn't exist in 2006.
44:09 --> 44:16 [SPEAKER_08]: When this version with Iggy Pop was recorded, certainly didn't exist when the stuages were doing their thing in their early 70s, right?
44:16 --> 44:24 [SPEAKER_08]: And maybe even didn't exist as a concept the world think even when the green day tune was in existence, that was the way that album is that warning, that's early 2000s.
44:24 --> 44:26 [SPEAKER_08]: That might even be before 9-11.
44:27 --> 44:29 [SPEAKER_08]: I'm trying to remember who went in the year that came out.
44:34 --> 44:44 [SPEAKER_08]: We can retroactively apply a label like science fiction to, you know, Gothic court didn't exist when it was first, you know, probably when Frankenstein was written, right?
44:44 --> 44:46 [SPEAKER_08]: But we can retroactively put that term maybe.
44:46 --> 44:47 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that was for me.
44:47 --> 44:48 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that was for me.
44:48 --> 44:48 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that was for me.
44:48 --> 44:49 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that was for me.
44:49 --> 44:50 [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, that was for me.
44:50 --> 44:51 [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, that was for me.
44:51 --> 44:52 [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, that was for me.
44:52 --> 44:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that was for me.
44:52 --> 44:53 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that was for me.
44:53 --> 44:53 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that was for me.
44:53 --> 44:54 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that was for me.
44:54 --> 44:54 [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, that was for me.
44:54 --> 44:55 [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, that was for me.
44:55 --> 44:57 [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, that was for me.
44:57 --> 44:58 [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, that was for me.
45:00 --> 45:06 [SPEAKER_08]: itself represents an era and a sort of temporal aspects of the art form.
45:07 --> 45:16 [SPEAKER_08]: So maybe it's only post-ex versus blue sky worlds that we can have hope on.
45:16 --> 45:16 [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know.
45:17 --> 45:24 [SPEAKER_08]: Because because was relentless positivity in 1990s, for example, countercultural,
45:25 --> 45:33 [SPEAKER_08]: When yeah, there was a lot of like nihilism in the grunge era, but also there was sort of like for the United States, like world peace from our perspective.
45:33 --> 45:41 [SPEAKER_08]: I know it wasn't world peace, but it was kind of like we won the whole where everybody was kind of positive in the 90s and sure we have we have punk sure we have terrible
45:42 --> 45:58 [SPEAKER_08]: political scandals, sure we have bad things in the world, and lots of the sort of grunge era vibe is not relentlessly positive, but the world by comparison kind of was for your average American consumer watching a movie, let's say.
45:58 --> 46:06 [SPEAKER_02]: In psychology, I'll say that like positive psychology was pretty counter culture in my field in the 90s and early 2000s,
46:09 --> 46:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, like cognitive behavioral therapy and like medication pharmaceuticals, which is valid, right?
46:14 --> 46:15 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
46:15 --> 46:29 [SPEAKER_02]: But this idea of like mindset was a newer thing and it was like kind of, yeah, really 90s idea, but it like even like you're saying like you were at you pen when he was doing this initial work and it didn't even seem like.
46:30 --> 46:34 [SPEAKER_02]: it had legs outside of that institution of paraphrasing your thoughts.
46:34 --> 46:39 [SPEAKER_03]: But that might be also my lack of awareness beyond the, if it wasn't on campus, it didn't.
46:39 --> 46:41 [SPEAKER_08]: She didn't take the class, everybody.
46:41 --> 46:42 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't take the rest.
46:42 --> 46:43 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
46:43 --> 46:44 [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't regret it.
46:44 --> 46:45 [SPEAKER_02]: You can read one.
46:45 --> 46:48 [SPEAKER_02]: You can buy one of his many, many books about the top.
46:48 --> 46:49 [SPEAKER_02]: I can get similar idea.
46:49 --> 46:53 [SPEAKER_02]: This whole ethos and what you're talking about, like once you label something,
46:54 --> 47:12 [SPEAKER_03]: Does that change it and even I'm thinking a lot about labeling something as punk like just to put the label on it if you defined it as you said Mark with it, you know, like it is the group that played at CBGB that no longer exists so can punk exist right and punk just without any qualifiers.
47:13 --> 47:20 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it doesn't exist as we've been when we've been talking about what is hope punk music, we keep referring to post punk bands.
47:20 --> 47:22 [SPEAKER_08]: So yeah, that's really it's interesting.
47:22 --> 47:38 [SPEAKER_08]: Like, you know, I don't think I think there's element of that small, more spiritual idea of the positivity that comes up in all sorts of sub-genres of punk music, but also probably, you know, country music or general, general Monet experimental, Afro Futurist, R&B and hip-hop, right?
47:38 --> 47:39 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
47:39 --> 47:39 [SPEAKER_08]: This is an
47:43 --> 47:45 [SPEAKER_03]: Can I call the question?
47:45 --> 47:46 [SPEAKER_03]: I'll allow it.
47:46 --> 47:46 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
47:46 --> 48:00 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I was just wondering if you think positive psychology is still a separate subject or if it is infiltrated other things and is that the goal of hope to infiltrate other things and deceased to exist?
48:01 --> 48:04 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's a really awesome question.
48:04 --> 48:05 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm happy to.
48:06 --> 48:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's it.
48:09 --> 48:25 [SPEAKER_02]: No, I mean, we are seeing the tenants of positive psychology infiltrating educational psych and like being operationalized in like early childhood education, secondary education in terms of social emotional learning.
48:26 --> 48:33 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, when I was in third grade, I didn't know the term growth and fixed mindset, but our kids are coming home with worksheets about it, right?
48:33 --> 48:48 [SPEAKER_02]: So we are really operationalizing Seligman's work in positive psychology and other, you know, Carol Dweck and all of these other really important theorists of this topic and like putting it in classrooms and as kids age up,
48:49 --> 48:59 [SPEAKER_02]: They're becoming adults that are really mindful and really understanding of that there is something about how we think about the world around us that makes a difference and how we interpret it.
49:00 --> 49:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Even in cognitive behavioral therapy, we talk about cognitive distortions and just reframing causes of distortions.
49:07 --> 49:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Like if you often catastrophize something or if you often had this pejorative internal monologue of like, you know, oh, I should be doing this.
49:15 --> 49:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I have to go run these errands.
49:18 --> 49:20 [SPEAKER_02]: I should be doing my homework.
49:20 --> 49:29 [SPEAKER_02]: you reframe that to say, hey, I could run these errands, or I get to do homework, what a great opportunity it is for me to get an education that other people don't have.
49:30 --> 49:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's positive psychology.
49:32 --> 49:39 [SPEAKER_02]: It's less of its own standalone thing and more just an overall shift in tone, clinically that I'm observing.
49:39 --> 49:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And when we think about education else like to, it's definitely trickling down.
49:44 --> 49:49 [SPEAKER_02]: outside of a clinical setting, so like an educational setting and just generally an early child's education.
49:50 --> 49:53 [SPEAKER_02]: So not so punk anymore, right?
49:53 --> 49:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Very mainstream.
49:56 --> 49:58 [SPEAKER_02]: So I wonder, like if hope punk,
49:59 --> 50:11 [SPEAKER_02]: trickle down and infiltrate society, would it just be, we'd all be kind or just, yeah, yeah, like what a, it's the latter culture, yeah, just yeah.
50:11 --> 50:14 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, no, that should be okay, right?
50:14 --> 50:17 [SPEAKER_08]: Like it doesn't is the fact that,
50:18 --> 50:25 [SPEAKER_08]: If you truly believe in the aesthetic and the like, or the the mission, you should want it to sell out.
50:25 --> 50:38 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, it's definitely like this is the one style where you should be like, yes, everybody should like this like this message as opposed to being, you know, you're mad when the underground band used to follow suddenly is on the radio and now you you lost your sense of ownership.
50:39 --> 50:48 [SPEAKER_08]: But I think what's interesting here, despite not coming to any kind of consensus, one of the interesting things for me is they're a value in labels.
50:48 --> 50:57 [SPEAKER_08]: And I think as much as I was once a young guy in a band who's like, well, we just, we just defy genre man.
50:57 --> 50:57 [SPEAKER_08]: Like.
50:58 --> 51:03 [SPEAKER_08]: One interesting thing about labels is that they can give you a new way to think about something.
51:03 --> 51:09 [SPEAKER_08]: Like, I would have never thought about Superman like this if this film had not put this out there.
51:10 --> 51:19 [SPEAKER_08]: And I would have never thought of Hope Punk, and I would have never thought of droppic Murphy's or whatever, is having kind of a Hope Punk message sometimes, or certainly not Iggy Pop, right?
51:19 --> 51:20 [SPEAKER_08]: I wasn't thinking that.
51:20 --> 51:26 [SPEAKER_08]: And the labels can serve us to just kind of give as long as you don't limit yourself to them.
51:26 --> 51:34 [SPEAKER_08]: it's fascinating and like we can come up with new angles that don't have to even necessarily be in line with what the artist originally intended.
51:34 --> 51:35 [SPEAKER_08]: Sorry, artist.
51:35 --> 51:36 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not in.
51:37 --> 51:45 [SPEAKER_02]: the powers that bees best interest for all the kind nice people to get together and spread their kindness, right?
51:45 --> 51:52 [SPEAKER_02]: It's better for certain people if we don't talk about kindness and we don't try to believe in each other, right?
51:52 --> 52:00 [SPEAKER_02]: So maybe labeling hope punk is giving us like a beacon to follow and say like, hey, if you believe in this too, like come and join us,
52:01 --> 52:05 [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe there's just power and the people and power and community and connection.
52:05 --> 52:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And this is giving us a new label to identify with that doesn't feel so polarizing and hot button and it just seems kind of connecting which I'm pro pro human connection 100% I think.
52:19 --> 52:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Superman, the film was, I really didn't enjoy it.
52:22 --> 52:25 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not really my usual style of movie to watch, but I wanted to check it out.
52:26 --> 52:33 [SPEAKER_02]: And I did like the community piece of it, like Loki, like camping as funniness of it was really interesting to me.
52:35 --> 52:38 [SPEAKER_02]: It did talk about a bunch of different people coming together for the greater good and helping each other out.
52:38 --> 52:41 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that that's just generally awesome.
52:41 --> 52:45 [SPEAKER_02]: So thanks for bringing that to the table for me because I never would have watched it on my own.
52:45 --> 52:46 [SPEAKER_02]: And I just wouldn't know.
52:46 --> 52:47 [SPEAKER_02]: So I appreciate that.
52:47 --> 52:50 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, thank you both for humoring me on this one.
52:51 --> 52:54 [SPEAKER_08]: Any other stuff you wanted to talk through on this topic or we did all.
52:54 --> 52:58 [SPEAKER_03]: No, I mean, I guess you, you still had the final question we had to decide, right?
52:58 --> 53:01 [SPEAKER_03]: Is Superman punk or Superman punk or not?
53:02 --> 53:09 [SPEAKER_02]: I think if you saw Superman walking down the street, he'd be like, he'd be like, he's very punk.
53:10 --> 53:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Because the outfit is unclear.
53:12 --> 53:13 [SPEAKER_02]: We're no, yeah.
53:13 --> 53:14 [SPEAKER_02]: We're not aware at all.
53:14 --> 53:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Get him to the club.
53:16 --> 53:16 [SPEAKER_02]: So handsome.
53:19 --> 53:19 [SPEAKER_08]: me out indeed.
53:19 --> 53:24 [SPEAKER_08]: I think Superman is hope punk, but Superman is not punk.
53:24 --> 53:25 [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
53:25 --> 53:34 [SPEAKER_08]: And I think those can both be true, but I think him wanting to be punk is part of what makes him hope punk, right?
53:34 --> 53:41 [SPEAKER_08]: He's constantly choosing to be good, but also aspiring towards a sense of he doesn't think he's square.
53:41 --> 53:43 [SPEAKER_08]: He doesn't think he's mainstream.
53:43 --> 53:44 [SPEAKER_08]: He thinks he's pushing
53:49 --> 53:53 [SPEAKER_08]: I think I'm more lowest, team lowest in terms of whether he's pumped, but that's fine.
53:53 --> 53:57 [SPEAKER_08]: And I'm actually, this is interesting for me, and I know we've gone long talking about this.
53:58 --> 54:01 [SPEAKER_08]: But at least you're a fan of the IAAS, which are punk adjacent.
54:02 --> 54:04 [SPEAKER_08]: People know that I'm a fan of punk music.
54:05 --> 54:09 [SPEAKER_08]: Nicole, I know you're not necessarily, and I know a lot of our listeners maybe aren't.
54:09 --> 54:17 [SPEAKER_08]: So I'm just, I'm hearing all this hope punk stuff as a fan, not only a punk, as an aesthetic, that's cool for me, but also of things like cyberpunk.
54:17 --> 54:21 [SPEAKER_08]: Like I like these sort of derivatives of that style.
54:22 --> 54:24 [SPEAKER_08]: And I just wonder how that lands if,
54:25 --> 54:31 [SPEAKER_08]: Maybe this vibe, the like kind of rough and rebellious vibe is just not somebody's scene.
54:32 --> 54:36 [SPEAKER_08]: They need like a different hope something else, right?
54:36 --> 54:36 [SPEAKER_08]: Hmm.
54:36 --> 54:38 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah, it could be.
54:38 --> 54:38 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
54:38 --> 54:47 [SPEAKER_03]: It could be something that bridges gaps toward people who, especially if we're including people like Janelle Monet, that's a completely different style of music.
54:48 --> 55:00 [SPEAKER_02]: So in my head I'm trying to like think of an aesthetic of hope punk like it's not spikes and rips and patches, but it feels more like cottage core ish to me.
55:00 --> 55:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Like futuristic cottage.
55:03 --> 55:06 [SPEAKER_02]: I think about it a lot about like um
55:08 --> 55:14 [SPEAKER_03]: I guess because I was originally introduced to the concept through stories about, especially people on space missions together.
55:15 --> 55:22 [SPEAKER_03]: So I guess that it's sort of like this alternative indie space outfits sort of as that I can buy in my mind.
55:23 --> 55:25 [SPEAKER_02]: And I can get behind that for sure.
55:25 --> 55:29 [SPEAKER_02]: What we we call like hope singer songwriter.
55:29 --> 55:31 [SPEAKER_02]: That doesn't have a chance.
55:31 --> 55:32 [SPEAKER_08]: I would have a hope jam ban.
55:32 --> 55:33 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not that heavy.
55:33 --> 55:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
55:33 --> 55:34 [SPEAKER_08]: It's okay.
55:34 --> 55:36 [SPEAKER_08]: Last word, at least it is Superman Pump.
55:38 --> 55:52 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I guess it depends what we call punk, if it's defiant then yes, if punk means defiant then I will say superman is punk even if there is a preface to that.
55:53 --> 55:54 [SPEAKER_08]: Well, this was fun.
55:54 --> 55:55 [SPEAKER_08]: Totally unexpected.
55:56 --> 55:58 [SPEAKER_08]: Superhero slash on music talk.
55:58 --> 56:05 [SPEAKER_08]: Alicia, people should check you out on the lorehounds, network, a bunch of pods you do there.
56:05 --> 56:07 [SPEAKER_08]: Anywhere else, people should go if they want more from you?
56:07 --> 56:11 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, yeah, just if you would like to check out, we brought up Frankenstein.
56:11 --> 56:17 [SPEAKER_03]: I did a whole Frankenstein series across wool shift dust and the lorehounds in October and November.
56:17 --> 56:18 [SPEAKER_03]: So check it out.
56:19 --> 56:19 [SPEAKER_03]: Awesome.
56:20 --> 56:20 [SPEAKER_08]: Awesome.
56:20 --> 56:24 [SPEAKER_03]: And you can also find me on Blue Sky at Alicia C.B.
56:24 --> 56:26 [SPEAKER_03]: You have to look in the show notes to how I spell my name.
56:28 --> 56:29 [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, all the ease.
56:29 --> 56:31 [SPEAKER_08]: What no, ease and ease, damn it.
56:31 --> 56:32 [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, we're going to show notes.
56:34 --> 56:35 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like all the vowels except you.
56:50 --> 56:51 [SPEAKER_08]: We're never music pot on social media.
56:52 --> 56:55 [SPEAKER_08]: And you can also send us an email at nevermusicpot at gmail.com.
56:57 --> 56:59 [SPEAKER_08]: Never mind the music is part of the lorehounds network.
57:00 --> 57:04 [SPEAKER_08]: Join the conversation by going to the lorehounds.com and hop on our Discord server.
57:06 --> 57:06 [SPEAKER_08]: Thanks for listening.