Ramblers Rising - Red Rising Chapters 37-40

[00:00:19] Welcome back to a brand new episode of Ramblers Rising, the podcast where two long-time friends talk about the world of books. I'm your host, Richard.

[00:00:27] And I'm your other host, Aaron. And we are also your guides to the many emotional gut punches of Pierce Brown's book series, Red Rising. And today we're going to be going over chapters 37-40 of Red Rising.

[00:00:42] Richard, if people wanted to get a hold of us, send in some feedback on the podcast or just participate in the conversation. What are some ways they can do that?

[00:00:51] I mean, I don't know, but if I had to guess, I guess they'd have to, you know, they could send us an email at radioactive at thelorehounds.com.

[00:01:01] We also, of course, have our channel set up for Radioactive Ramblings in the Lorehounds Discord server, and you can send us a message, chat about the show.

[00:01:08] We have a contact form as well as voicemail form at thelorehounds.com. And you could consider giving us a follow on Blue Sky, which is Radioactive 141.

[00:01:19] And we would appreciate a rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Audible, or wherever else you listen to us. It helps other listeners like you find us.

[00:01:29] And if you are a fan of our Red Rising content, our Studio Ghibli content, anything, consider supporting us on Patreon for as little as $2 a month for early and ad-free podcasts, as well as some exclusive content, which we're going to have some new Fallout Lore episodes dropping pretty soon.

[00:01:47] That's one of our New Year's resolutions is to get back into the Fallout Lore.

[00:01:52] Yeah, it better be. You know what else your New Year's resolutions should be?

[00:01:58] Is it to edit the Elden Ring podcast?

[00:02:00] It's to edit the Elden Ring podcast, alright? You're making me look like a liar in the Discord.

[00:02:05] Going on like six months now.

[00:02:07] I know. I've been sitting on those files for a really long time. I do need to get on that.

[00:02:13] You could say my reputation now is tarnished?

[00:02:17] Ooh, that was a good one.

[00:02:18] That was a bar.

[00:02:19] I appreciated that one.

[00:02:21] Yeah.

[00:02:22] But you know what's not tarnished?

[00:02:25] What? What's not tarnished?

[00:02:27] Darrow Olycos' reputation.

[00:02:31] I would say, if anything, he's getting up there. He's kind of becoming a cult leader, and I fuck with the Reaper.

[00:02:37] Yeah, he is kind of becoming a cult leader. He's been on that trajectory for the majority of the book, and seeing him really gain that cult-like following, especially...

[00:02:47] The Howlers are his main base of worshippers, I would say.

[00:02:52] Oh my god, Severo...

[00:02:53] Well, you know, Severo worships that man like there's no tomorrow.

[00:02:57] I mean, they are...

[00:02:58] Yeah.

[00:02:59] Severo's one of my favorite representations of just pure loyalty.

[00:03:03] I mean, they have their fights and problems, but...

[00:03:05] I mean, even when they are disagreeing on things and having fights with one another, still, they're so loyal to each other.

[00:03:12] It's more like when two family members fight.

[00:03:15] Like, at the end of the day, you know that most likely you're going to get over it and come back to a place of understanding, and you still love and care about each other.

[00:03:23] And that's very much how Severo and Darrow are.

[00:03:26] They really do hold together, and I think that without Severo, Darrow would not ascend as high, because Severo, he gets the dirty work done, you know?

[00:03:35] And obviously, Severo needs Darrow to... because Darrow's like the leader.

[00:03:40] And I think that they've got a really good relationship, both in terms of they're all buddy-buddy and also on the battlefield.

[00:03:45] They do some crazy stuff together.

[00:03:47] So, we've changed the format of Ramblers Rising just a little bit.

[00:03:52] Richard, do you want to kind of explain how we are structuring it now, instead of just going kind of bullet by bullet, then talking about whatever is interesting to us?

[00:04:03] Yeah, we're just going to kind of structure them like we've been doing our Studio Ghibli reviews.

[00:04:07] I mean, I think you and Chase agree with me on this.

[00:04:11] Like, we've definitely... I feel like those have been a lot more fun to do for us.

[00:04:16] Yeah.

[00:04:17] And I mean, that is why we're doing it.

[00:04:18] So, that's our plan for this.

[00:04:21] And moving forward, once we finish the first book, we are going to take a hiatus on this show, because we've got Castlevania Nocturne and Invincible coming up.

[00:04:31] We'd love to talk about those shows.

[00:04:32] I mean, I haven't finished Nocturne, so I'm kind of a fraud, but I really... I'm excited for Season 2.

[00:04:37] You've got 10 days before Season 2.

[00:04:40] Yeah, yeah.

[00:04:41] 10-day countdowns.

[00:04:42] Those tend to be the thing, don't they?

[00:04:44] They do.

[00:04:45] But after that, once we resume Ramblers Rising, we'll be starting with Golden Sun, and we're just going to kind of go part by part.

[00:04:53] Those episodes are probably going to be bi-weekly, though, purely so that we can skim through all of Part 1, get what we want, and get it out there.

[00:05:02] They're probably also going to be a bit longer, but I mean, hey, that tracks, I'd say.

[00:05:07] For sure.

[00:05:08] How do we want to handle this?

[00:05:09] Are we going to do the full breakdown of the chapter and then talk about it, or do we want to do, like...

[00:05:16] You have it segmented up very nicely, so do we want to do it one segment at a time?

[00:05:22] I was thinking just by segment.

[00:05:23] Yeah.

[00:05:24] Because, like, I don't know, I feel like we'll experiment and see what happens, you know?

[00:05:30] And we'd love to get your feedback at the end of this episode if you feel like this is a little bit more of a natural way for us to be doing it.

[00:05:38] We've just kind of found that this format brings us a little bit more naturally into the conversation, and we can talk about what we found really interesting instead of just doing a blow-by-blow recap, which...

[00:05:51] I feel like that's not our favorite thing to do, is just going point by point.

[00:05:56] Yeah.

[00:05:57] And I think that when Nocturne comes out, we might want to cover it, like, different story arcs, maybe, something like that.

[00:06:04] But I'm getting ahead of myself a little bit.

[00:06:06] We'll see how that...

[00:06:06] Well, that's what I was thinking we do for book two.

[00:06:09] Or at least we'll experiment with that for the first, like, part and see how that feels.

[00:06:14] Yeah.

[00:06:14] That's a good call.

[00:06:15] Yeah.

[00:06:16] All right.

[00:06:16] Without further ado, we are starting off with chapter 37, South.

[00:06:21] Do you want to start off, or do you want me to?

[00:06:23] I'll run it.

[00:06:23] All right.

[00:06:23] Take it away, Richard.

[00:06:24] Yeah.

[00:06:25] So we know it's been a hot minute.

[00:06:27] We took a little holiday hiatus, although we didn't actually mention that we were.

[00:06:31] So, oopsie.

[00:06:32] But everyone remembers Darrow got whipped by Pax because he and Tactus needed to pay for Tactus' crimes.

[00:06:38] I guess there were some consequences to stuff Tactus did that was bad.

[00:06:41] I don't know.

[00:06:42] But in the aftermath of Darrow's punishment, Mustang's caring for his wounds, and in the other room,

[00:06:48] Pax is just bawling his eyes out.

[00:06:51] He did not like whipping Darrow.

[00:06:53] I mean, that's obviously a very emotional, traumatic thing for Darrow and Tactus to go

[00:06:56] through.

[00:06:57] But to be the one whipping, I mean, he knew Tactus deserved it.

[00:07:00] But to whip Darrow, who didn't really deserve it, deserve it, definitely fucked with him

[00:07:04] a bit.

[00:07:04] And Mustang, this is where Mustang really says, like, you're starting to become more of a

[00:07:08] cult figure.

[00:07:09] And they decide that they need to organize their assault on the House Apollo, who, if you

[00:07:15] guys don't remember, their proc, we hate him.

[00:07:18] I hate the House Apollo proctor.

[00:07:19] He is one of the guys who wants to help the Archgovernor's son, the Jackal, win.

[00:07:26] Let's talk about Pax for a second, because that's something that I was really interested in in this

[00:07:30] chapter.

[00:07:31] But it really gives a good characterization of Pax, the fact that he is so emotionally

[00:07:38] impacted by the fact that he has to whip Darrow.

[00:07:41] It just shows that he really does have that gentle giant side to him.

[00:07:45] And I think when we get into the later books, we see that with his whole family, the Telemontas,

[00:07:50] is that they're really kind of good natured people.

[00:07:53] They're a little bit warmongery, but you know.

[00:07:55] Yeah.

[00:07:56] Well, like everyone in this series is even if they're the night, like most of the nice

[00:08:00] characters will still turn around and absolutely slaughter some people.

[00:08:05] Yeah.

[00:08:05] So that's just kind of par for the course in the Red Rising series is to have these at least

[00:08:11] slightly bloodthirsty characters.

[00:08:13] Dude, while we're on this tangent, one of my favorite characters who will remain nameless,

[00:08:19] he's evil.

[00:08:20] Evil.

[00:08:20] One of the most evil villains in this series, in my opinion.

[00:08:23] And he is very similar.

[00:08:25] He acts not quite the same as like Kavik's, but he acts a lot nicer in conversation to people

[00:08:31] that aren't his enemies.

[00:08:32] And even though his mother is his enemy, he doesn't kill his mother.

[00:08:36] And he even says what kind of monster would kill their own mom.

[00:08:39] Yeah.

[00:08:40] And it's like, dude, he goes on some genocidal stuff.

[00:08:43] He's a little crazy.

[00:08:44] Damn.

[00:08:45] Yeah.

[00:08:45] Well, I'm interested to see who that turns out to be.

[00:08:48] Yeah.

[00:08:48] I enjoyed that part with Pax.

[00:08:51] And as always, Mustang has to be the smartest person in the room.

[00:08:54] And she, of course, susses out the fact that Darrow is becoming that cult-like leader,

[00:09:00] which she's always so good at reading him.

[00:09:02] It's one of my favorite things about their dynamic.

[00:09:04] Yeah.

[00:09:05] I love, I mean, I've said it before.

[00:09:07] I'll say it again.

[00:09:08] EO, get out of here.

[00:09:09] Darrow and Mustang for the win.

[00:09:11] What an amazing relationship.

[00:09:13] Wow.

[00:09:13] That's crazy saying EO, get out of here.

[00:09:16] Well, she kind of did get out of here.

[00:09:18] Don't forget.

[00:09:19] Well, not by choice, but you know, I guess so.

[00:09:22] She could have just, I don't know, not sang the funny song that she knew was going to get

[00:09:25] her killed.

[00:09:26] I don't, I don't know.

[00:09:28] Well, if she didn't sing it, we wouldn't have these amazing books.

[00:09:31] So, oh, I believe me, I'm appreciative of EO for her sacrifice because Darrow would not

[00:09:38] be the Reaper without her.

[00:09:40] And I love the Reaper.

[00:09:42] EO's sacrifice gave us all, what is it now?

[00:09:46] Eight books, something like that.

[00:09:48] Six books, one last one on the way and three spinoffs, but I didn't read those spinoffs.

[00:09:53] So I can't, I can't say anything about them.

[00:09:56] So that's a lot of books and they're all thanks to EO.

[00:09:59] So everyone say thank you, EO.

[00:10:02] Yeah.

[00:10:02] Thank you.

[00:10:03] We all say before, before Darrow goes to war.

[00:10:06] Yep.

[00:10:07] And this assault that they're organizing on House Apollo, they're really setting up the

[00:10:13] major battle set piece of this final part of the book.

[00:10:19] Yeah.

[00:10:20] It, it doesn't play out quite the way I was expecting when I first, you know, read the

[00:10:25] book and I'm sure you can relate, but it plays out on a much grander scale too in the way that

[00:10:30] it does.

[00:10:31] They kind of do a switcheroo on us, but we'll talk about that when we actually get to it.

[00:10:36] Yeah.

[00:10:36] It should be in the next week or two.

[00:10:38] We're, we're, we're really right at the end there.

[00:10:41] It's, it's great.

[00:10:42] We are.

[00:10:43] And any final thoughts before I move on to our next section of chapter 37?

[00:10:47] Uh, no, I think that's, that's all I got.

[00:10:50] All right.

[00:10:51] Darrow and his army, uh, end up running into an Apollo war band led by their primus Novus

[00:10:57] and Darrow pretends that they are House Ceres having lost his army, having his army hoist

[00:11:03] the Ceres standard instead of Mars as the Apollo army rides away.

[00:11:07] Mars camps before setting out further South in the morning and on the way, Tactus and Darrow

[00:11:12] talk of ruining Apollo.

[00:11:14] Apollo.

[00:11:14] Darrow explains that he wants to ruin Apollo because they fear Mars.

[00:11:20] And they should.

[00:11:21] Very interesting stuff.

[00:11:22] Darrow really has that hatred for House Apollo at the moment.

[00:11:25] And that'll kind of transfer over once he gets out of the Institute.

[00:11:30] It's so interesting to me.

[00:11:32] I know we've talked about this a couple of times, but it's so interesting to me how the

[00:11:36] Institute really is just a microcosm of the greater political and warfare landscape that

[00:11:43] Darrow finds himself in during the rest of the series.

[00:11:46] And I think it's interesting that at the start when Octavia Aulun is talking on the HC and

[00:11:51] stuff, they paint the golds as this united front that sits atop the pyramid.

[00:11:56] And they really don't.

[00:11:58] Like once in book two, obviously we'll see it a lot more, but we hear about it in this

[00:12:01] book.

[00:12:02] There's so much infighting, you know, there's rebellions all over the place, but they're

[00:12:07] small scale.

[00:12:08] So, you know, not everyone knows about.

[00:12:09] I think that that's a really cool dynamic.

[00:12:13] I mean, it's obviously terrible form of society, but I think that it works well in the books.

[00:12:18] The only thing that they hate more than the low colors are each other.

[00:12:22] Yeah.

[00:12:23] They, uh, imagine what they would do if they found out Darrow was a red.

[00:12:28] What do you mean?

[00:12:29] He's a gold on his way to becoming a peerless scarred.

[00:12:33] He could never be.

[00:12:34] I would consider Darrow to be the peerless scarred.

[00:12:37] Let's be honest.

[00:12:38] He really is peerless in more ways than one, I would say.

[00:12:42] Yeah.

[00:12:43] Fucking love him.

[00:12:44] What did you think about his decision to have them hoist the series standard instead of the

[00:12:49] Mars?

[00:12:49] Did you think that was a pretty smart move on his part?

[00:12:51] I think it was Mustang's idea.

[00:12:53] My, my, my goat, my other goat anyways, she's so smart.

[00:12:58] She comes up with some crazy ass plans in these books and I don't know.

[00:13:01] Doesn't seem like a Darrow plan because his plans are more, yeah, let's trick them and

[00:13:05] then immediately kill them all.

[00:13:07] Yeah.

[00:13:07] I would have to agree with you that this was probably Mustang's brainchild because out of

[00:13:12] the two of them, Mustang is the brains of the couple.

[00:13:15] Yeah.

[00:13:16] I would say that they're equally the brawn, but Mustang is the brains almost entirely.

[00:13:22] I'm with you on that.

[00:13:23] Any other thoughts?

[00:13:24] No, I'm ready.

[00:13:26] All right.

[00:13:27] This is a longer one reading.

[00:13:29] Sorry.

[00:13:29] I'm like in half a food coma after that, after dinner.

[00:13:32] Richard and I just went out to one of those all you can eat sushi and Thai places and where

[00:13:38] the robot serves you.

[00:13:40] Oh my God.

[00:13:40] That was a pretty special experience being served by the robot.

[00:13:44] It was phenomenal.

[00:13:45] I liked that the robot has like the cat face and the little cat ears.

[00:13:49] Yeah.

[00:13:49] I'm just a whimsical guy, you know?

[00:13:51] Okay, buddy.

[00:13:52] Okay.

[00:13:52] Mr. Whimsical.

[00:13:53] I am.

[00:13:54] I could have taken up the shard of whimsy in the Cosmere.

[00:13:57] I will get to the Cosmere books eventually.

[00:13:59] Anyways, back to fucking war.

[00:14:02] Not whimsical, I guess.

[00:14:03] Boo.

[00:14:04] That night, Daryl, Mustang, and Pax, you know, they sit around the fire.

[00:14:08] Pax?

[00:14:09] We get even more Pax lore drop, and I love this.

[00:14:12] He reveals he used to be, or he used to dream of being an obsidian.

[00:14:16] And he talks about like his obsidian nanny.

[00:14:18] And it was just a really touching scene might not be the right word, but you know, you could

[00:14:23] tell.

[00:14:23] Like Aaron said earlier, he's got that gentle giant side to him.

[00:14:26] And we're really, up until this chapter, we're not led to believe that too much because we

[00:14:31] just see him going into battle screaming his name, and he's kind of crazy.

[00:14:36] We see the soldier, not the person.

[00:14:38] Yeah, yeah.

[00:14:39] And at dawn, Tactus wakes Daryl up to tell them that their horses are gone.

[00:14:43] They realize that the horses wouldn't have just torn the ropes and broken out on themselves,

[00:14:48] and it was the Proctors who did it.

[00:14:51] Those shifty bastards.

[00:14:52] They also talk about Cassius' betrayal, and we find that Mustang lost a brother when she

[00:14:58] was younger, and she kind of empathizes with him, of course.

[00:15:01] Still thinks that maybe he shouldn't have done that.

[00:15:03] She really shows that empathetic side that we love.

[00:15:07] Then Mustang calls for Darrow when he goes to piss in the woods, and he's kind of like

[00:15:13] off-put because she's calling him Darrow instead of Reaper.

[00:15:16] And he follows the sound of her voice, but you know, he's a little suspicious.

[00:15:20] And Apollo pats him on the shoulder and decloaks, shoving him to the ground.

[00:15:26] And Darrow, the Reaper, smells dander and fur as a beast roars in the woods.

[00:15:32] Okay, I want to talk again about Pax because...

[00:15:36] Yay!

[00:15:37] Pax is just great, but I want to talk about how you can see the fact that he used to dream

[00:15:43] about being an obsidian.

[00:15:45] It shows that he actually sees the other colors as real people and not just as tools and slaves.

[00:15:53] The fact that he had such a reverence for them and looked up to them as a child so much

[00:15:59] that he wanted to be one when he grew up.

[00:16:01] There's no greater honor to any kind of profession or type of person than having a kid be like,

[00:16:07] I want to be that when I grow up, you know?

[00:16:10] Yeah, that's so real.

[00:16:12] And I think Pax makes a worse Peerless Scard for that.

[00:16:17] But that's all right because the Peerless, they ain't all that, all right?

[00:16:21] No.

[00:16:21] They're losers.

[00:16:22] The Peerless Scard are kind of losers because they're all classist hierarchical assholes.

[00:16:29] So...

[00:16:30] Yeah.

[00:16:30] What are your thoughts at this point in the book on Tactus?

[00:16:33] Hmm.

[00:16:35] I didn't like him.

[00:16:36] I wanted him to die horribly.

[00:16:38] What about you?

[00:16:39] Sorry, very basic worldview from me on Tactus.

[00:16:42] Do you think that Darrow's mercy is the right call?

[00:16:46] Do you think that having mercy on someone as awful as Tactus, do you think that that is

[00:16:52] the right decision or something...

[00:16:54] Whether it comes back to bite him in the ass or not, do you think that giving someone like

[00:16:59] that a chance is worth it?

[00:17:00] I think that giving someone a chance to grow despite past mistakes is always a good thing.

[00:17:05] I think that more times than not, it will blow up in your face.

[00:17:10] But why wouldn't you want to give someone a chance to be better?

[00:17:13] I agree.

[00:17:14] Even someone as vile as Tactus...

[00:17:18] Yeah.

[00:17:18] Maybe deserves...

[00:17:19] No, I still wanted him dead.

[00:17:21] Yeah.

[00:17:22] Um...

[00:17:23] Maybe we'll get that at some point.

[00:17:26] Yeah, maybe.

[00:17:28] Maybe.

[00:17:28] We'll have to see.

[00:17:30] Only Pierce Brown knows.

[00:17:31] I mean...

[00:17:33] He better not kill my fucking...

[00:17:34] He better not kill Severo in the last book.

[00:17:38] This was the point in the book where I started to really feel connected to her as a character.

[00:17:43] I think that she just kind of pulls shit together.

[00:17:49] Like, she's the one who makes it all happen for Darrow and for everyone else in House Marr.

[00:17:56] Or not even House Marr because they're not really House Marr anymore at this point.

[00:18:01] They're their band of former...

[00:18:03] And the Reaper's Warband?

[00:18:04] Yeah.

[00:18:05] The Reaper's Warband.

[00:18:06] Is that what they're actually called or is that your name for it?

[00:18:08] I just came up with that on the spot.

[00:18:10] Yeah.

[00:18:11] I like that.

[00:18:11] You could write a book.

[00:18:13] I like that a lot.

[00:18:14] So, Mustang came up with the whole idea for the Reaper's Warband out of former...

[00:18:19] I don't...

[00:18:20] I hate calling them slaves because once they get out of the Institute, once this little game ends,

[00:18:26] they're going to go back to their cushy high lives.

[00:18:30] But I guess...

[00:18:32] Yeah.

[00:18:32] That's what the book calls them.

[00:18:36] And so, just seeing her plans come to fruition is really satisfying.

[00:18:41] Yeah.

[00:18:42] I will say, I was not as on board at the time.

[00:18:46] I saw something coming and I was wrong.

[00:18:49] I thought she was going to do some stuff.

[00:18:53] And then I thought I was really right towards that fake out at the very end.

[00:18:58] And then I ate my words and now I believe in Mustang supremacy.

[00:19:06] There's more than once that they fake us out with the possibility of Mustang being not a good person.

[00:19:15] Yeah.

[00:19:15] And it's always a fake out.

[00:19:17] Oh, I know.

[00:19:18] And the problem...

[00:19:19] Not problem, I guess.

[00:19:20] But the pattern that Darrow takes on through the first trilogy is that he always believes it's going to be the fake out.

[00:19:27] Like the...

[00:19:28] He always believes it's going to be the worst possible outcome when it comes to her.

[00:19:32] And I'm glad that he...

[00:19:35] Well, I would say he gets over that in book three.

[00:19:37] I'm lying.

[00:19:38] He gets over that in book three and then they're good.

[00:19:41] But...

[00:19:41] Yeah.

[00:19:42] That's how you know he's really in love when he thinks it's too good to be true.

[00:19:46] Yeah.

[00:19:47] Yeah.

[00:19:47] And then he accepts that his wife...

[00:19:49] Well, not wife at the time.

[00:19:50] But his wifey is perfect in every way, shape, and form.

[00:19:54] She's a sick-ass razor master.

[00:19:57] She's a cunning political master.

[00:20:01] I don't even know what I'm yapping about.

[00:20:04] I'm just glazing Mustang at this point.

[00:20:06] Yeah.

[00:20:07] And other than that, I don't really have too much to say about the other plot points.

[00:20:13] I think that we'll get into Proctor Apollo in the next chapter.

[00:20:17] Yeah.

[00:20:18] Next chapter, a lot of stuff happens to Apollo.

[00:20:22] Yeah.

[00:20:23] And then the one after that.

[00:20:24] And the one after that.

[00:20:28] So, our next chapter is going to be chapter 38, which is titled The Fall of Apollo.

[00:20:36] Yeah.

[00:20:37] He's done this chapter.

[00:20:39] Dirty bastard.

[00:20:40] Dirty bastard.

[00:20:42] So, our chapter name spoiled it for us a little bit, but a massive carved abomination of a bear attacks Darrow, who, in a rush of adrenaline, jumps back as the bear falls into a spike trap.

[00:20:54] Conveniently plays spike trap.

[00:20:56] Yeah.

[00:20:56] And he lands in rope.

[00:20:57] By who, though?

[00:20:58] We'll see, won't we?

[00:21:00] We will.

[00:21:02] Then, Darrow, when he gets put in his little rope trap, he's hanging for hours only to look down and see Severo, who is, as always, loyal to Darrow.

[00:21:14] But he's missing an eye, which that kind of explains, or he explains that he and the Howlers abandoned ship when Darrow went missing, and Cassius claimed that he was taken by the jackal.

[00:21:28] So, they went to go and get Darrow back, which is when Severo lost his eye and also earned him a very nasty leg injury.

[00:21:36] So, Severo heard that Darrow was in trouble and immediately rode out to the rescue.

[00:21:41] What a guy.

[00:21:41] So did the other Howlers.

[00:21:43] The loyalty that Darrow has bred in them, because they were only the Howlers for a month, maybe.

[00:21:51] I mean, it's insane.

[00:21:54] And to see Severo change this chapter, not change really, because he's still the loyal second as he's been, but to show it more, I guess, is what I'm saying.

[00:22:07] It's a good development for him, for sure.

[00:22:09] Yeah.

[00:22:10] And he even is willing to lose an eye.

[00:22:16] Like, he goes through a lot of physical pain for Darrow.

[00:22:20] Yeah, I don't even think the eye is the worst injury Severo's gotten defending Darrow.

[00:22:27] No, I can assure you that it's not, actually, but I can't.

[00:22:31] Yes, that's spoilers.

[00:22:32] Yeah.

[00:22:33] Right.

[00:22:34] But the Reaper also decides that he's going to split up his armies and give everyone but Severo a squad of 10.

[00:22:42] And as Severo and the Howlers now refuse to leave Darrow's side, that's kind of why they decided, or why Darrow decided to not send them off or give them any squads, because they're his squad.

[00:22:54] That's his people right there.

[00:22:55] Yeah.

[00:22:56] And they're going to besiege Apollo in every way, shape, and form, raiding the supply stores, spreading misinformation, hacking their boats to pieces, freeing slaves.

[00:23:07] Severo explains that the Jackal and most of House Pluto trapped themselves underground to escape House Vulcan.

[00:23:12] And so the Jackal has earned his name when they started to starve, and the only food was each other.

[00:23:21] And like his namesake, he chewed off his own leg to help escape the trap.

[00:23:26] So at the end of the story, Darrow realizes that all the sound outside of a small radius has gone quiet.

[00:23:33] And then Proctor Apollo kind of reveals himself having opened up a jam field.

[00:23:37] There's a lot going on in this chapter with the fall of Apollo.

[00:23:41] Oh, I know.

[00:23:42] And it gets even crazier in our next little segment, but we got to talk about the Jackal for a minute.

[00:23:48] Like that, that's crazy, right?

[00:23:52] Yeah.

[00:23:52] Eating your own house.

[00:23:56] So let's add cannibalism to the list of the Jackal's crimes.

[00:24:00] Honestly, that's not even his worst one.

[00:24:03] Like, I hate to say it, but that is not his worst crime that he commits.

[00:24:06] It's even just in, I want to say in this book, he commits some worse.

[00:24:11] I know he commits some worse stuff.

[00:24:13] Why am I even debating it?

[00:24:14] I would say it's pretty far from his worst one too, by quite a bit.

[00:24:18] Yeah.

[00:24:19] Which is saying something because cannibalism is pretty gnarly.

[00:24:21] Yeah.

[00:24:22] But he is an evil bastard in this book alone.

[00:24:26] I mean, I think that that story too goes to show how menacing the Jackal is and why he's built up such a reputation akin to Darrow's Reaper stuff.

[00:24:35] I think that the development of the Jackal and the Reaper as foils to one another is really interesting.

[00:24:42] You know, the Reaper, he's kind of become this wraith type figure who's, oh, I have Helm Hammerhand on the brain because we just walked War of the Rohirrim yesterday.

[00:24:55] But it reminds me a lot of the way that Helm was stalking the woods and taking down soldiers.

[00:25:02] That's kind of the myth that Darrow is cultivating for the Reaper.

[00:25:06] And then the Jackal is cultivating this almost rabid animal type of mentality and this rabid animal reputation.

[00:25:16] So it's very interesting to see these opposites and how they...

[00:25:21] I just want to talk for a minute about generally in books and movies and shows.

[00:25:28] Protagonists who build up like a cult following are one of my favorite types of like heroes in a book.

[00:25:34] They did it for Kelsier.

[00:25:35] They did it for Dalinar.

[00:25:37] It's two Cosmere characters.

[00:25:39] Yeah, that's right.

[00:25:40] Everyone knows that I don't shut up about the Cosmere.

[00:25:42] No, when characters build up cults like that, it's cool.

[00:25:47] Like Kelsier has a legitimate religion going for himself at the end of book one of Mistborn.

[00:25:53] That's crazy.

[00:25:54] At some point, I want us to talk about the Elder Scrolls lore.

[00:25:58] Yes.

[00:25:59] And we'll have to see if anyone else is interested in joining us on that.

[00:26:04] I know Jon from the Lorehounds did an episode on Skyrim.

[00:26:09] He did it for Lorehounds play.

[00:26:10] So maybe he'd like to join us for an episode or two or some little lore tidbits here and there.

[00:26:15] But I think about Tiber Septim from the Elder Scrolls lore who...

[00:26:26] He literally became one of the gods of their pantheon after he died.

[00:26:31] And so, you know, those types of characters who become almost godlike or develop cults around them.

[00:26:40] It is a really interesting trope.

[00:26:43] I think that the way that they go from just a regular person to almost this godhood status.

[00:26:51] I love that journey.

[00:26:53] Yeah.

[00:26:54] Yeah.

[00:26:55] It's always something like just one...

[00:26:57] It doesn't have to be anything major, but like one thing about them.

[00:27:02] Like for Darrow, it's his scythe that he uses because almost everyone in the Red Rising universe who is like a Razormaster or just fights with like melee weapons in general.

[00:27:13] It's all straight swords and lances and stuff like that.

[00:27:18] And so having that unique characteristic where he fights with a sickle and is really deadly with it, that I feel like is what makes him stand out.

[00:27:30] And the fact that the name is the Reaper obviously comes from that.

[00:27:34] But I think that having him...

[00:27:36] Calling him the Grim Reaper also just adds to it.

[00:27:39] I don't know.

[00:27:40] I get that that's obviously what he's going for, but I just like talking about the mythology of Darrow.

[00:27:46] Yeah.

[00:27:47] I also wanted to bring up because Darrow fighting with a sickle.

[00:27:53] There are actually several cultures who have used sickles as like weapons of war and not just farming tools.

[00:28:03] So it's not a thing that...

[00:28:06] Obviously, we have the Grim Reaper and that's kind of where Darrow's name comes from.

[00:28:10] But to some extent, there was like Polish revolutionary forces.

[00:28:15] There were forces in Japan and Indonesia that used the sickle.

[00:28:20] So it does have some historical basis for use of that type of weapon in warfare.

[00:28:28] Yeah.

[00:28:29] I always like that you got the historical side of things locked down.

[00:28:34] I like to throw in a few historical facts because I like to relate it to real life.

[00:28:39] There's so many parallels.

[00:28:42] I enjoy those a lot.

[00:28:44] Yeah.

[00:28:44] It's always good when you've got a hero villain, a character in a piece of media that you can relate to real life.

[00:28:51] When they're completely unrealistic, for the most part, boo.

[00:28:56] However, Vin from Mistborn, perfect unrealistic character, in my opinion.

[00:29:01] And that'll make sense for anyone who reads it because of her decision in book two.

[00:29:06] That's my rant.

[00:29:07] Sorry.

[00:29:07] Sorry.

[00:29:08] No, you're good.

[00:29:09] What exactly is a jam field?

[00:29:12] Like what's the purpose of it?

[00:29:14] Oh yeah.

[00:29:15] There's like the first, maybe the second one we've seen.

[00:29:17] I should have put the explanation in there, honestly.

[00:29:20] No, I don't remember exactly what they say.

[00:29:23] They use it a lot, but just a quick explanation might be good.

[00:29:26] A sphere, I don't know the distance because they can change it, but it's a sphere where no sound from outside the sphere comes in and no sphere from inside goes out.

[00:29:41] There's also like an electromagnetic field too, so it disables communication in and out, stuff like that.

[00:29:53] Interesting.

[00:29:54] It's basically just a complete blind spot.

[00:29:56] For anyone who's not in it.

[00:29:59] That's cool.

[00:30:00] It reminds me of the things from Dune where they have the, it almost looks like a spotlight coming down from the ceiling and it.

[00:30:10] Oh yeah.

[00:30:12] Yeah.

[00:30:12] Took me a sec.

[00:30:13] That's what it kind of reminds me of when I read about the jam fields, but.

[00:30:17] Yeah.

[00:30:18] I'm sure any sci-fi series, it doesn't matter what it is.

[00:30:22] It has likely taken inspiration from Dune.

[00:30:24] Dune is just such a cornerstone.

[00:30:26] Yeah.

[00:30:27] Yeah.

[00:30:28] Sci-fi.

[00:30:28] So, but anyways, Apollo then threatens Darrow and company who stall him so that several can get his howlers out there.

[00:30:37] And as Apollo lowers the jam field, manic howls fill the air once more.

[00:30:42] A signal that strikes fear into Apollo and the revealed proctor Venus.

[00:30:48] So, you got two proctors there who are not exactly following the rules.

[00:30:53] They're interfering a little bit too much.

[00:30:55] Yeah.

[00:30:56] Darrow really has some ops.

[00:30:58] Yikes.

[00:30:59] Darrow.

[00:31:00] Cool.

[00:31:01] The list of ops never ends with this guy.

[00:31:05] Yeah.

[00:31:05] At what point do you think?

[00:31:07] Maybe it's, maybe he's the problem.

[00:31:09] Never.

[00:31:10] Never.

[00:31:10] How dare you say that about the Reaper?

[00:31:12] I will fight you for that one.

[00:31:14] All right.

[00:31:15] Come on.

[00:31:15] Let's go throw hands in the parking lot.

[00:31:17] Yeah.

[00:31:18] I'm, I'm ready, dude.

[00:31:20] Severo, Tactus, and most of the army, they're all sieging Castle Apollo as Darrow and the others arrive.

[00:31:27] The Reaper who's joined by Pax gets ready to fight Novus, who if you remember, that's the Apollo Primus.

[00:31:33] Or Novus is armed with this thing called a pulse spear, which Richard, give us another explanation here of what a pulse spear is.

[00:31:39] Pulse spear is like, it's, pulse weaponry is the second strongest type of weaponry.

[00:31:46] It'll shred through anything below it on the tier list of armor.

[00:31:51] So the only thing stronger than it for weapons, ship cannons and full on siege weaponry, stuff like that.

[00:31:58] But for small arms, the only weapon stronger than a pulse type weapon would be a razor.

[00:32:04] And then the only thing that it can't cut through is pulse armor.

[00:32:09] Pulse armor, well, power pulse armor.

[00:32:11] If the pulse armor doesn't have power, then it can cut through it.

[00:32:14] It's weird.

[00:32:15] Lots of technical details.

[00:32:18] Yeah.

[00:32:19] But so pulse armor is the strongest until someone makes a technological breakthrough in the second era.

[00:32:26] But that's different, obviously.

[00:32:28] Okay, cool.

[00:32:29] So pulse is pretty much the closest that they're going to get to perfection in the Institute because obviously none of them are really going to get a razor or anything in the Institute, surely.

[00:32:42] Yeah, no one would get a razor.

[00:32:43] Why would you even like mention that, dude?

[00:32:46] That's so weird.

[00:32:47] But a short while later, House Mars, they end up winning.

[00:32:51] Surprise, surprise.

[00:32:52] And they are missing one girl from Apollo who runs away.

[00:32:57] But the Reaper, having won another impossible fight, whips the stolen pulse spear at the conferring proctors, claiming that Jupiter is next on his list.

[00:33:08] And all of House Mars is chanting the name of the Reaper of Mars.

[00:33:13] Yeah, he takes that pulse spear that he won through Rite of Conquest and basically declares war on the system.

[00:33:21] What a metal guy.

[00:33:23] Yeah, he is metal as hell, dude.

[00:33:25] I would listen to a metal band that's like Darrow ballads.

[00:33:28] I would listen to a metal band that's anything, though.

[00:33:30] So I shouldn't talk.

[00:33:31] Yeah, you are a metal head.

[00:33:33] I am, dude.

[00:33:34] Don't put a magnet near me, though.

[00:33:35] Those shits are scary.

[00:33:37] It'll erase all your memory.

[00:33:39] Oh, no.

[00:33:40] Then I'll get to read Red Rising again.

[00:33:42] There are a lot of properties that I wish I could just completely forget about and experience for the first time again.

[00:33:47] Yeah.

[00:33:48] Then there's some that I wish I could just forget about.

[00:33:50] Yeah.

[00:33:51] Game of Thrones season eight.

[00:33:52] I wouldn't know.

[00:33:53] And I think I'm a happier person for not knowing.

[00:33:57] Yeah, you are going to be pissed off.

[00:34:01] Maybe I just don't watch it then, I guess.

[00:34:03] No, you should watch it.

[00:34:04] Yeah, I know.

[00:34:06] We all had to go through six seasons of Absolute Peak and then be disappointed by the last two.

[00:34:13] So you have to go on that emotional roller coaster as well.

[00:34:16] Pierce Brown would never.

[00:34:18] Because there's six books of Absolute Peak and then there's going to be one last book of Absolute Peak.

[00:34:22] Yeah.

[00:34:23] Yeah.

[00:34:24] And Richard, do you have any thoughts on Darrow's proclamation?

[00:34:30] It's very, I want to say dramatic is the right word for what he gets to.

[00:34:36] Oh, Darrow is dramatic?

[00:34:38] No.

[00:34:39] No way.

[00:34:40] Yeah.

[00:34:41] Darrow, king of drama.

[00:34:43] All right.

[00:34:43] He, I liked the proclamation.

[00:34:45] I always, I always like scenes like that, especially.

[00:34:49] And I'm going to pull out my audio book, my audible subscription again.

[00:34:53] Having listened to the audio book, I just, I really enjoy the way that Tim Gerard Reynolds narrates this section.

[00:35:01] I mean, most sections, honestly.

[00:35:03] This is definitely one that like stuck in my head and still is in there swimming around.

[00:35:08] And just any, any proclamation scene like this is crazy.

[00:35:15] And I, I love Darrow for it.

[00:35:17] He, he does some crazier stuff later.

[00:35:20] He chases a dude around a planet, not around a moon.

[00:35:25] So I lied, but around a moon screaming at him to confess while clanging together two razors.

[00:35:31] Like Darrow is that guy and he lives for the drama.

[00:35:36] Um, but yeah, I agree with everything you said and.

[00:35:42] Novus kind of Novus and all of house Apollo went down a lot easier than I thought they were going to, but I guess that's because this is the prelude to the much bigger fight, which is now we know going to be against the proctors.

[00:35:56] Yeah.

[00:35:57] He going to war with the proctors is crazy work.

[00:36:01] And I think that if he didn't, the book series or the series would not stand out as much as it did.

[00:36:09] And I'm so grateful that he decided to make it like Darrow overthrowing the system completely.

[00:36:16] Yeah.

[00:36:18] And if he had just played the game and gone by their rules, it would have been honestly a very boring storyline, but throwing in the whole aspect of him freeing slaves.

[00:36:30] Slaves for his army and going up against the system.

[00:36:35] It just all is a microcosm of what he wants to accomplish outside of the Institute.

[00:36:40] So I love it.

[00:36:43] And Richard.

[00:36:46] All of the, all of the proctors.

[00:36:49] Correct me if I'm wrong.

[00:36:51] They are all peerless guard.

[00:36:53] Yes.

[00:36:54] Yes.

[00:36:54] Everyone.

[00:36:55] You have to be a proctor to.

[00:36:58] Hmm.

[00:36:59] Words are hard.

[00:37:00] You have to be a peerless guard to be a proctor.

[00:37:02] He's not only taking on some Institute professors.

[00:37:07] Yeah.

[00:37:08] But he is taking on the peerless scarred.

[00:37:13] They're not just any regular old proctors and people watching over.

[00:37:18] They are the toughest of the tough when it comes to the golds.

[00:37:23] Darrow.

[00:37:24] That's just another cool fact about Darrow.

[00:37:26] I love my goat.

[00:37:27] He is the only person in the Institute to do what he is about to do.

[00:37:31] He is that guy.

[00:37:34] Obviously, it's written that way to make him even more of like the Messiah type character.

[00:37:38] But I love that.

[00:37:39] I love when a character is the first to ever do it.

[00:37:42] And it's not even something that other characters have thought of.

[00:37:45] It elevates the myth of the Reaper a lot more.

[00:37:48] Absolutely.

[00:37:49] I've been watching Silo and listening to Alicia and Luke's coverage over on the Wolfship Dust feed.

[00:37:57] And there was an episode of Silo where Judge Meadows and you haven't seen this.

[00:38:02] So this doesn't mean a whole lot to you.

[00:38:03] But there are two characters, Judge Meadows and Mayor Holland.

[00:38:07] They're having a conversation and they're trying to solve an issue.

[00:38:11] And Meadows tells Holland, you know, in order to solve this issue, you're going to need to think outside the box and outside of anything.

[00:38:20] You know, it's going to be it's like you're trying to imagine a color that you've never seen before.

[00:38:25] Like you've I know it's hard, but you got to try.

[00:38:28] And I think that Darrow kind of succeeds on that.

[00:38:32] Yeah.

[00:38:32] Imagining a color you've never seen before.

[00:38:35] I think that's a good way of putting it.

[00:38:36] I honestly this book made me like want to think of a lot more outside the box when I'm reading stuff.

[00:38:43] And I did guess a completely batshit insane plot twist at the end of book four of the Stormlight Archive.

[00:38:51] And think like Darrow, guys, especially when you're reading a story.

[00:38:56] You might guess some crazy shit, but get it on paper so that people know that you are a prophet of the future.

[00:39:02] If you're going to be thinking outside the box, you might as well take credit for your ideas.

[00:39:08] Yeah.

[00:39:09] Chapter 39.

[00:39:10] The Proctor's Bounty.

[00:39:11] Well, here I got this one.

[00:39:13] All right.

[00:39:13] Go ahead, Richard.

[00:39:14] Yeah.

[00:39:15] I don't I mean to make you do all the work.

[00:39:16] This is just one.

[00:39:18] It's one conversation.

[00:39:20] And honestly, our next one, while it's not one conversation, it's a very quick chapter.

[00:39:24] But this is we get to see Fitchner again.

[00:39:27] So yippee.

[00:39:27] I love Fitchner.

[00:39:28] The go.

[00:39:29] Yeah, I would consider him to be pretty good.

[00:39:32] Yeah.

[00:39:33] The the morning after they see Japalo and take it over, Darrow is being heralded by his troops and newly acquired slaves isn't the right word, really, obviously.

[00:39:45] But the new people freed soldiers, freed compatriots.

[00:39:50] Yeah, sure.

[00:39:52] He's being heralded as an old conqueror being compared to Alexander the Great or Caesar and the Iron Golds who rebelled against Earth.

[00:40:01] And of course, they don't say it, but I like saying his name.

[00:40:04] Selenius the Lightbringer is another character he's compared to.

[00:40:09] And Selenius the Lightbringer is an amazing character.

[00:40:12] Back in the days of the Conquering, Selenius Aulun was crazy with it.

[00:40:17] But Fitchner, you know, he descends from Olympus to tell Darrow Apollo hasn't left Olympus.

[00:40:23] Apollo is supposed to leave Olympus because his house is completely gone.

[00:40:28] And we find that one of the proctors that's aiding the jackal.

[00:40:32] Fitchner doesn't know who it is, but I like to think it's Apollo because I mean, Apollo is so driven.

[00:40:37] One of the proctors aiding the jackal was to be appointed to an Olympic Knights position that is vacant.

[00:40:43] Oh, I wonder who will get that.

[00:40:45] We definitely won't find that out next book.

[00:40:48] But Fitchner sends Mustang out of the room.

[00:40:51] They really don't like each other.

[00:40:54] But he says he needs to talk to Darrow one on one.

[00:40:57] And he gives Darrow the knife ring that Dancer had.

[00:41:01] It's just like a golden ring, but it has a hidden blade that's almost eight inches long coiled into the ring.

[00:41:09] He tells Darrow to stop chasing the jackal.

[00:41:12] And it needs to stop.

[00:41:14] And every good, every gold should be able to go further in the society.

[00:41:19] But it just doesn't work that way for him or his son.

[00:41:23] And Darrow, in a moment of realization, figures it out.

[00:41:27] Goblin is Fitchner's son.

[00:41:29] Good old Severo.

[00:41:30] And Fitchner actually kind of has an emotional bit here.

[00:41:35] He really just wants Darrow to stop because he wants Severo to be safe.

[00:41:40] And Darrow says that it's Severo's choice whether he wants to help out or not.

[00:41:47] And they end the discussion.

[00:41:49] They shake hands.

[00:41:51] And Darrow's a little silly guy.

[00:41:52] He blitzes Fitchner and knocks him out instantly with the precision of a helldiver and the speed of a gold.

[00:42:01] Now, my first question about this chapter is, do they ever give an explanation for why Fitchner has Dancer's knife ring right now?

[00:42:09] The Obsidians took it off of him.

[00:42:12] Okay.

[00:42:12] So the Obsidians took it off of him.

[00:42:14] Yeah.

[00:42:15] When they kidnapped Darrow in part two or part three, whatever it was.

[00:42:19] Right before Darrow killed that guy, I don't know, Jake, I think was his name.

[00:42:26] Yeah.

[00:42:26] Fuck Julian.

[00:42:30] Oh my god, Jake.

[00:42:31] That's crazy work.

[00:42:33] Close enough.

[00:42:34] I mean, same first letter, but, you know, I guess close enough.

[00:42:39] It is interesting to see Darrow being heralded as one of the old conquerors of Earth and of the Iron Golds, you know.

[00:42:50] It's just all adding to this larger than life aspect that he's got to him.

[00:42:57] And I'm sure that this is such a boon for the people who see him as this godlike figure who's worthy of worship.

[00:43:06] This is just feeding into that.

[00:43:08] And Darrow, it's got to be going to his head quite a lot at this point.

[00:43:12] Yeah, he really, he gets an ego boost from this moment, honestly.

[00:43:18] And we see that throughout the rest of the book.

[00:43:20] And also, knocking Fitchner out, that's kind of crazy.

[00:43:25] Why do we think that he does that?

[00:43:28] I don't know.

[00:43:28] I couldn't tell you.

[00:43:30] I mean, I'd have to assume that Darrow just doesn't trust his proctor.

[00:43:35] Yeah, which he's kind of right to at this point.

[00:43:38] He shouldn't be trusting any of these proctors because at the end of the day, any one of them could be helping the jackal right now.

[00:43:44] Yeah, and I think on top of that, they also don't want the other proctors, you know, if he's betting on Fitchner being a good guy, he doesn't want, I would say the other thing is he doesn't want the other proctors to hold him hostage as like a bargaining chip to get Darrow to back down completely or something like that.

[00:44:05] I don't think that's as likely, but it's still out there.

[00:44:11] Back to Dancer's Knife Ring, is this the only knife ring that we see in the Red Rising series?

[00:44:21] Sorry, I'm combing through the information in my head right now.

[00:44:28] Pretty sure.

[00:44:29] I have one.

[00:44:31] Okay.

[00:44:32] It reminds me a lot of the Assassin's Creed Hidden Blades.

[00:44:37] Yeah, yeah.

[00:44:38] It's very reminiscent of those, and I'm sure that's why it's a ring and not like a, I guess I don't know what else it really would be.

[00:44:46] But yeah, it's cool.

[00:44:49] And I don't even remember if he uses it in this book or if I'm losing it.

[00:44:54] Do you remember?

[00:44:55] I think that he, I want to say that he briefly uses it.

[00:45:00] I know.

[00:45:01] But it's a bit of a spoiler, so I don't want to get into it.

[00:45:04] I realized.

[00:45:05] Okay.

[00:45:06] Yeah.

[00:45:08] Fitchner and Goblin.

[00:45:11] Father and son.

[00:45:13] Did you have any inkling that that was the case before they revealed it?

[00:45:19] I will say, and you know, this might be me like, I don't, I can't think of a word.

[00:45:25] Fuck.

[00:45:26] Ignore me.

[00:45:27] Anyways, I think that you could have guessed it.

[00:45:32] I mean, because Fitchner was always like, would always pick Goblin out of the crowd and Goblin, they seem to have some sort of prior relationship.

[00:45:42] However, when I was reading through it for the first time, I did not think it was father, son.

[00:45:47] I would have figured they just knew each other.

[00:45:50] I don't even know.

[00:45:52] I guess I just wasn't thinking critically like that.

[00:45:55] What about you?

[00:45:55] Yeah.

[00:45:57] Yeah.

[00:45:57] I can't say that when I was reading it, that the question of who Severo's father is, was ever something really on my mind.

[00:46:07] And like, if that was something that was a mystery that they set up at some point, I might have thought a little bit more about it, tried to figure out who it was.

[00:46:17] But I think that the reveal works really well, but there was nothing prior to it to make me wonder whether or not Severo's father was Fitchner, you know?

[00:46:30] Like, it came out of the blue, but not in a bad way.

[00:46:34] It just was a surprise little reveal for us.

[00:46:38] And I hadn't given it any thought before we actually got it.

[00:46:42] Yeah.

[00:46:42] But nice to build that bridge.

[00:46:46] I'm sure he'll use it in the next book.

[00:46:49] I mean, I wouldn't know.

[00:46:51] I've never read it.

[00:46:52] Yeah, right.

[00:46:53] Yeah.

[00:46:54] No, I'm lying.

[00:46:55] It's in my room.

[00:46:56] I'm staring at it right now.

[00:46:58] My beloved golden son.

[00:47:00] I'm also staring at golden son on my bedroom floor right now.

[00:47:03] Yeah.

[00:47:03] What a book.

[00:47:04] I meant to mention this at the start.

[00:47:08] Aaron, you finished golden son.

[00:47:10] How was it?

[00:47:10] I finished golden son and I can say confidently that I will have a lot more to say about golden son when we get to covering that than I will about red rising.

[00:47:25] Because not that there isn't enough to say about this book.

[00:47:29] This is a fantastic book.

[00:47:30] And I love talking about it.

[00:47:33] But when we get to golden son, there's just so many nuances.

[00:47:37] There's so much depth to it.

[00:47:39] The characters get so much better.

[00:47:41] I think that you can see Pierce Brown become a better writer.

[00:47:47] Between the process of writing golden son and red rising.

[00:47:52] You can see that he's improved his skills, his character work, his story.

[00:47:57] His world building gets better too.

[00:48:00] Exactly.

[00:48:01] Obviously after this book, it opens up because that's when Darrow and everyone, you know, they go to other planets.

[00:48:09] They're not just shackled to the Val Marineris on Mars.

[00:48:16] They go all over the place.

[00:48:18] We get a sense of how long travel takes, all sorts of stuff.

[00:48:23] And I mean, while that's maybe not the most important travel times, it does become important when there's some major wars and battles going on.

[00:48:32] But Pierce Brown pays a lot of attention to the logistics of moving around armies and people.

[00:48:40] And I think that that's really important to create a realistic universe because nobody needs to have armies just teleporting wherever they're needed.

[00:48:49] I think that that's it takes me out anytime I see something like that happen.

[00:48:53] Yeah.

[00:48:54] I like that he makes the world feel cohesive and it feels a lot more.

[00:49:05] I mean, obviously he's got a great model.

[00:49:08] You know, he just has to look up like a model of the solar system.

[00:49:13] But I think that it's just a very well working thing.

[00:49:15] And he pulls a lot of like celestial dwarfs and stuff out too.

[00:49:21] Like not planets.

[00:49:22] Like obviously I know Pluto is a celestial dwarf.

[00:49:26] You know, there's that.

[00:49:27] But then he also pulls out like Ceres and Eris and the moons of every gas giant are important.

[00:49:33] The moons of the gas giants are really, they're very important.

[00:49:38] Yeah.

[00:49:38] I think you're learning that right now in Morningstar, aren't you?

[00:49:41] I am learning that in Morningstar, but it's really kind of shocking to me that there's this whole wide solar system full of inhabited planets.

[00:49:53] And we really only see a tiny little portion of Mars in this book.

[00:49:57] I think it's really cool the way that they focus in before telling the broader story.

[00:50:02] Yeah.

[00:50:03] I like the way that they depict Luna too.

[00:50:06] I mean, shit.

[00:50:07] Who doesn't like city structure type planets?

[00:50:11] Yeah.

[00:50:12] It's Luna is almost like the Coruscant of this universe.

[00:50:17] Yeah.

[00:50:18] So is Phobos too.

[00:50:19] The one moon of Mars.

[00:50:21] I'm surprised that we don't in this podcast make more Star Wars comparisons.

[00:50:27] Yeah.

[00:50:27] I don't know why we haven't because there are a lot to be made.

[00:50:30] I mean, there's no light.

[00:50:32] Say it.

[00:50:32] There's no laser swords, so it's not the same.

[00:50:34] And there's no magic, but I feel like there's a million comparisons to make.

[00:50:38] I think that the Senate, like once we get into the politics, we will be talking about the Star Wars Senate quite a bit just because of, I mean, more and more than Iron Gold because that's when we really get a lot of Senate stuff going on.

[00:50:56] I don't know how else to explain it.

[00:50:59] Yeah.

[00:51:00] At this point, the Senate is very much just like for show, right?

[00:51:04] They're not doing a whole, it's really the sovereign calling the shots.

[00:51:08] It's kind of like how in Star Wars, you have the Senate that is serving the emperor and they dissolve it pretty much as soon as the movie starts.

[00:51:18] They just, what's the word I'm looking for?

[00:51:21] Mouthpieces?

[00:51:23] Yeah.

[00:51:24] Not mouthpieces, I guess.

[00:51:25] They stand there and look pretty.

[00:51:28] Stand-ins.

[00:51:29] Which, it's sort of similar to the way that the Senate operated during the Roman Empire, but even during the Roman Empire, the Senate had some modicum of influence and power in the politics and the way that the Empire was governed.

[00:51:45] Which, I'm sure that's true of this Senate too, but it's not like in Star Wars where it's just the emperor calling every single one of the shots.

[00:51:53] There is a little bit of power to the Senate.

[00:51:55] It's just, it's more in the hands of the sovereign.

[00:51:58] Yeah.

[00:51:59] So, more like real life with the Roman Empire.

[00:52:02] Get Darrow and Octavia Alune in a room together and see what happens.

[00:52:09] I think what happens is...

[00:52:11] As long as Aja's not there.

[00:52:12] Sorry, let me rephrase that one.

[00:52:15] I think that what happens is they share a cup of tea and are very cordial with each other.

[00:52:21] Right.

[00:52:22] Yeah.

[00:52:23] Sure.

[00:52:26] But, that's all I had on Chapter 39.

[00:52:28] Should we move on to our final chapter, which is Chapter 40 Paradigm?

[00:52:33] Yeah, this is...

[00:52:35] A lot of stuff happens, but I just kind of have it summed up in one section because like...

[00:52:40] Like you said earlier, honestly, this is where he starts to talk more about logistics.

[00:52:45] Yeah.

[00:52:48] He gives us the number of people...

[00:52:50] Like, how long they're sieging Pluto.

[00:52:52] How long...

[00:52:54] All this crap...

[00:52:55] Did I say Pluto?

[00:52:57] I...

[00:52:57] Cut that out.

[00:52:58] Cut that out.

[00:52:58] That's a fucking spoiler for the end of the chapter.

[00:53:00] Holy fuck.

[00:53:03] I got you.

[00:53:03] All right.

[00:53:04] Thank you.

[00:53:04] Sorry.

[00:53:06] Um...

[00:53:06] But we find out like how long they've been sieging Jupiter.

[00:53:10] Uh...

[00:53:10] How many defenders there are.

[00:53:12] What happens.

[00:53:13] Where the rest of Jupiter's forces are.

[00:53:14] All of this stuff.

[00:53:16] Um...

[00:53:17] We get a new...

[00:53:17] A new important character named Lucian.

[00:53:20] He's pretty interesting.

[00:53:22] Um...

[00:53:23] He's a dog, for sure.

[00:53:25] In the later books.

[00:53:27] But yeah.

[00:53:28] Uh...

[00:53:28] You want to start or should I?

[00:53:29] Yeah.

[00:53:30] Uh...

[00:53:31] I'll...

[00:53:31] Why don't I take it away?

[00:53:32] You did the last one.

[00:53:34] All right.

[00:53:35] Darrow tells Mustang that Fitchner left.

[00:53:37] And they decide that they need more allies before taking on the Jackal.

[00:53:41] So...

[00:53:42] They besiege House Jupiter while Fitchner is locked in the Apollo dungeons.

[00:53:46] But...

[00:53:46] Don't worry.

[00:53:47] They give him some food and water.

[00:53:48] So he's okay.

[00:53:50] And...

[00:53:50] The main bulk of Jupiter is trapped on the other side of a now-thawed river.

[00:53:56] Jupiter flies the white flag three days after the siege.

[00:53:58] And a nervous boy wearing the ring of Jupiter introduces himself as Lucian.

[00:54:04] Uh...

[00:54:04] Which Mars makes themselves at home in Castle Jupiter.

[00:54:07] Whose eight defenders only request to remain free.

[00:54:11] While Darrow reflects on how long it's been since Eo died.

[00:54:14] Nearly three years now.

[00:54:16] Damn.

[00:54:17] And just how different his life has become.

[00:54:20] Darrow's men party until he sends Pax on patrol around the castle.

[00:54:24] Later sending Mustang to find Pax after she meets with him and Lucian for a brief moment.

[00:54:28] He sends...

[00:54:30] He and Lucian trade stories.

[00:54:31] Lucian telling him of his father.

[00:54:34] With high expectations and all that.

[00:54:36] Sharing info on house statistics.

[00:54:38] And then he asks for Darrow's story.

[00:54:41] Darrow asks for Lucian to give him a bag while they sit at the table.

[00:54:45] And Darrow dumps out a pile of 11 different sigil rings.

[00:54:49] Counting through them.

[00:54:50] Noting that they are missing a Pluto ring.

[00:54:53] But he sees a Pluto right in front of him.

[00:54:57] Yeah.

[00:54:58] So...

[00:54:58] So Darrow's talking to someone from the Jackal's house.

[00:55:02] And when I say the Jackal's house...

[00:55:04] It's the Jackal.

[00:55:06] He's sitting right in front of the fucking Jackal of Pluto.

[00:55:10] He certainly is.

[00:55:13] Which...

[00:55:14] Damn.

[00:55:14] That reveal is just crazy.

[00:55:17] Yeah.

[00:55:18] That was one of my favorite parts of this book, honestly.

[00:55:20] Because he's...

[00:55:21] It's the way that Darrow does it.

[00:55:23] You know?

[00:55:23] He's just like so casually...

[00:55:25] Oh, do you mind handing me that bag?

[00:55:27] Dumps it out.

[00:55:28] And just one by one...

[00:55:30] Seeks out one ring for each house.

[00:55:34] Yeah.

[00:55:35] Like...

[00:55:36] Sitting across from the Reaper of Mars.

[00:55:39] Way better than the Jackal of Pluto.

[00:55:43] That's crazy.

[00:55:44] That is crazy.

[00:55:45] Just for him to then...

[00:55:46] Oh, we've got one of everything.

[00:55:47] We're just missing a Pluto ring.

[00:55:49] But I spy a Pluto right across from me.

[00:55:52] Crazy shit.

[00:55:54] You know?

[00:55:55] When I think about Fitchner being held captive...

[00:55:59] It just kind of makes me laugh.

[00:56:00] Because I know...

[00:56:03] The way his character is.

[00:56:05] And...

[00:56:05] He's gotta be just like irritated with the situation.

[00:56:09] Like he's not even mad about it.

[00:56:10] He's just like...

[00:56:11] Oh my god.

[00:56:12] What a waste of my damn time.

[00:56:13] Yeah.

[00:56:14] And you know if Severo knows.

[00:56:15] He's just laughing his ass off.

[00:56:17] He thinks it's the funniest shit.

[00:56:19] Absolutely.

[00:56:20] Severo...

[00:56:21] Seeing his father locked up.

[00:56:23] That's gotta bring him so much joy.

[00:56:26] And make him laugh so hard.

[00:56:28] Yeah.

[00:56:28] For the record, everyone.

[00:56:29] Fitchner is not a shit parent.

[00:56:32] It's just their relationship.

[00:56:33] They're so goaded.

[00:56:34] I love Fitchner and Severo's dynamic.

[00:56:36] They've got a very strained father-son dynamic.

[00:56:40] Yeah, I know.

[00:56:41] They struggle with one another.

[00:56:42] For sure.

[00:56:43] But it could be worse.

[00:56:44] You know?

[00:56:46] It definitely could be worse.

[00:56:48] But we sort of learn why their relationship is strained.

[00:56:52] And it has a lot to do with...

[00:56:55] Severo's mother having passed away.

[00:56:57] And Fitchner is really all that Severo has.

[00:57:00] And he's not exactly the greatest role model or most attentive father.

[00:57:07] But I think he tried his best.

[00:57:09] I think he's goaded.

[00:57:11] I love Fitchner.

[00:57:12] Maybe as a person.

[00:57:13] But not so much as a father, I would say.

[00:57:15] Well, yeah.

[00:57:16] Yeah.

[00:57:17] Fitchner as a character is goaded.

[00:57:19] As a father, he could use some work.

[00:57:21] But I think that it's still good that they have their fun times here and there.

[00:57:28] Yeah.

[00:57:29] Yeah.

[00:57:29] Absolutely.

[00:57:32] And when Lucien is talking about all of the high expectations put on him, what did you think about that?

[00:57:38] Do you think that a lot of golds have those high expectations placed on them?

[00:57:42] Yeah.

[00:57:43] I'd say most of them.

[00:57:44] Especially when your father's the arch governor of Mars, you're definitely going to have some high expectations.

[00:57:49] And him going out of the way and saying that, to me, was what set me off.

[00:57:56] I was like, wait.

[00:57:58] Every gold would have high expectations, especially if they're in the Institute.

[00:58:02] So what makes this kid different?

[00:58:04] I don't know.

[00:58:04] It was just the way that section was written made me feel a little suspicious.

[00:58:08] Like, a barely defended castle.

[00:58:12] And he made the request to remain free.

[00:58:16] Whereas Daryl, they still, they touch on this a little bit in this chapter.

[00:58:21] They still mark people with their standards.

[00:58:24] However, then they erase the mark after the person's done something for them.

[00:58:31] Done their time.

[00:58:32] Actually, I think that's exactly what Pax says, is do their time.

[00:58:37] And so the reasoning for why he can't brand the jackal is if he brands the jackal, then he wins.

[00:58:44] Because taking the enemy leader with the standard is, that's it for them.

[00:58:47] And he doesn't want everything to be over yet.

[00:58:50] Yeah, the jackal's got plans, buddy.

[00:58:53] I mean, you know.

[00:58:55] I do know.

[00:58:58] Back to the whole pressure thing.

[00:59:00] Are you familiar?

[00:59:00] I might have talked about this on the podcast before.

[00:59:02] Are you familiar with what it meant in Roman society, more specifically, like Byzantine society, to be born in the purple?

[00:59:12] No, but I think purple was their eagle color, right?

[00:59:15] Yeah.

[00:59:16] So kids who were born in the purple, it originally started off as this thing to describe the children of a ruling emperor.

[00:59:24] Specifically, like if that child was born during the reign of the emperor, it just kind of meant that there were really high expectations placed on them and very royal responsibilities put on them.

[00:59:40] It eventually kind of expanded to be the children of really any noble or really rich people got that title.

[00:59:49] It wasn't a formal thing, but they had that notion of being born in the purple, of being sort of destined to do great things because their parents expected them of it.

[01:00:00] And I think about the children of Peerless Scarred a lot as being born in the purple in this universe.

[01:00:07] Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.

[01:00:09] Again, great historical references there, bud.

[01:00:13] Thank you.

[01:00:13] I would not have thought of that mostly because I feel like I've heard that.

[01:00:16] I wouldn't have put it that way.

[01:00:17] Obviously not a one-to-one comparison, but I think that it's kind of a similar situation.

[01:00:22] Yeah, it's pretty good.

[01:00:24] I mean...

[01:00:24] Pretty big cliffhanger to leave us on.

[01:00:27] Yeah, that's exactly why I did it.

[01:00:29] I mean...

[01:00:29] Well, you know, I'm sitting there writing the outline.

[01:00:31] It's like 2 in the morning or like 2.15, whatever.

[01:00:35] I'm like, do I really want to leave with him and end off with him knocking Fitchner out?

[01:00:40] Because I just kind of feel for what's a good chapter to end on by what's happening in the one I'm reading.

[01:00:48] Or like skimming, whatever.

[01:00:50] And I go to the next one.

[01:00:52] And I read it.

[01:00:55] I skim through it and I'm like, wait a minute.

[01:00:57] This is fire.

[01:00:58] We're going to end on that.

[01:01:00] Yeah.

[01:01:00] Yeah.

[01:01:01] The Jackal.

[01:01:01] The Jackal reveal is crazy.

[01:01:03] It is a pretty awesome reveal.

[01:01:05] Yeah.

[01:01:07] I wonder what's going to happen next chapter.

[01:01:09] Hopefully no one dies.

[01:01:10] I'm excited to talk more about the Jackal when we get together next week.

[01:01:15] Yeah.

[01:01:15] I mean...

[01:01:18] What was going through your head at this point, though?

[01:01:21] Like...

[01:01:22] Hmm.

[01:01:24] I think that what was going through my head was I need to read the next chapter.

[01:01:29] Yeah.

[01:01:30] Me too.

[01:01:31] I remember when I read through this chapter, I finished this chapter at like 11.45 and I was done for the night.

[01:01:42] Because I had to like start cleaning up my area and getting ready to go home.

[01:01:46] And that...

[01:01:47] That was evil.

[01:01:49] That was evil.

[01:01:50] I had that happen to me with one of the Mistborn books too.

[01:01:54] But at the time reading this, this was like the first audiobook I read.

[01:01:59] I was not as dedicated.

[01:02:01] Now when that happens to me, I get in my car and I listen to the audiobook on the drive home.

[01:02:07] You just power through.

[01:02:08] Oh, I power through.

[01:02:09] All right.

[01:02:10] And it's worth it.

[01:02:10] Before we let you guys go, I did just want to give a quick shout out to all of the other podcasts in the network.

[01:02:16] First of all, the ones who make it all possible, our parent podcast, The Lorehounds.

[01:02:21] And they are the ones who support us and help us keep everything going.

[01:02:28] They got us started.

[01:02:29] They just finished up their coverage of Dune Prophecy.

[01:02:31] They're about to be covering in a joint production with Properly Howard Movie Review.

[01:02:36] They're about to be covering the show Severance.

[01:02:38] Which, if you're subscribed to the Lorehounds feed, to the Properly Howard Movie Review feed,

[01:02:43] you're going to want to go and subscribe to the Severance podcast feed because they are only posting those Severance episodes to that feed.

[01:02:51] So exclusive to that, go subscribe to that.

[01:02:54] Also in the network are excellent podcasts.

[01:02:57] Like I mentioned, Properly Howard Movie Review.

[01:02:59] They're going very strong on their new season, which is A Few Good Films, which is themed off of actors who have been in the movie A Few Good Men.

[01:03:10] So it's all like the main cast of that, I believe.

[01:03:13] I don't...

[01:03:14] They go through all of the rules in the first episode of the new season.

[01:03:17] And listening to them try and figure out what the rules are going to be and how they're going to pick out movies,

[01:03:22] it's almost as entertaining as listening to their actual reviews of the movies.

[01:03:27] They've always got some fun stuff going on.

[01:03:29] Also is Wool Shift Dust, which I mentioned earlier in the podcast.

[01:03:33] Alicia and her co-host Luke are going through the new season of Silo.

[01:03:38] And I know that on their Patreon, they're also doing Silo book spoiler cast.

[01:03:43] And that is actually with Alicia and Abby, who you might recognize from the Discord.

[01:03:51] And Alicia's also got the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast, which is on hiatus at the moment.

[01:03:56] Rings and Rituals, which is Marilyn R. Pukila and Dr. Sarah Brown.

[01:04:01] They did the entire first season of The Rings of Power, looking at it through the realm or through the lens of rituals in our day-to-day life.

[01:04:11] And it was really interesting.

[01:04:12] And I'm looking forward to when they come back for season two.

[01:04:16] And of course, last but certainly not least, the newest affiliate, Never Mind the Music.

[01:04:22] Mark and Nicole go through the psychology and the sort of technical aspects of music.

[01:04:31] And I think that they're doing a sort of, not surprise episode, but an extra bonus episode.

[01:04:39] Because they pre-recorded their season, but they're doing a bonus episode on Defying Gravity.

[01:04:45] And I was listening to the Lorehounds review of Wicked.

[01:04:50] And it was very entertaining.

[01:04:52] Nicole from Never Mind the Music was on that.

[01:04:54] And she was trying very hard not to spoil all of her thoughts on Defying Gravity so that her and Mark can talk about it on Never Mind the Music.

[01:05:02] So listen to all of these.

[01:05:05] And links for all of them are going to be in the show notes.

[01:05:07] So you can go check them out, as well as the info on how to get a hold of us and info on our new Patreon.

[01:05:13] So thank you all for listening.

[01:05:15] And we hope to see you in the Institute for the next episode.