Severance - 0104 - The You You Are

[00:00:00] A Music Dance Experience Don't pervert a handbook passage to me, okay? You are listening to A Lorehounds Plus, Properly Howard production. Today we cover Episode 4 of Severance. Before we do, Steve and I talk for about 10 minutes about our recent trip to New York City.

[00:00:28] You don't care about that, just jump ahead of about 10 or 11 minutes. Alright, without further ado, here is comic Steve Osburn. So Steve, we're about a week out from our excursion to the East Coast. That is correct. Boston, Hartford and then NYC.

[00:00:53] And I would like to share two things. One thing I learned about you and one thing I learned about me. Alright. And I'd like you to do the same. Okay. Alright, so the first thing that I learned about me, I cannot navigate underground.

[00:01:13] If I'm above ground, boy, I'm fine. I can track the sun. I can put my licked finger to the wind and tell you that there are coyotes nearby. You bring me underground with a subway map, I'm worthless. What did you learn about yourself?

[00:01:38] I learned that I'm much better at going with the flow than I think I give myself credit for. Although I did have specific touch points, I was willing to get lost. Right. When things didn't go your way, you were more willing than maybe in the past to like,

[00:02:04] well, let's see what adventure comes about because of this. Right. And especially because it's long traveling, you run the risk of not running into something that you or seeing something that you may never see again. Right? We got on the wrong subway.

[00:02:22] We were on our way to Central Park. Central Park is not a small thing. It's pretty big. It's a giant thing. You could fit a city inside Central Park. Yeah. It's not easy to not find, and yet that was supposed to be the first thing we did one

[00:02:40] day and we never... We didn't do it even a little bit that day. We did not see the end one. In fact, I think we went about as far away from it as you could and still be in New York City.

[00:02:50] We got on the wrong subway and we thought, oh, let's see where this thing takes us. And we ended up pooping at 30 Rock, which was defined by me. Which was necessary. We ended up at Banana Republic. No, I mean... Right. That was not expected.

[00:03:08] Which is about the same, which is about the same as Central Park. Right. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean it's not like, well, what does a New York Banana Republic like? And we bought nothing. What did you do in New York?

[00:03:21] Well, we did some window shopping at a chain that we could have done. We could have done it any city in the Midwest. Right. It's funny because it's like I'm not going to drive 40 minutes there, but if I might fly five hours...

[00:03:35] I do think that we're kind of underselling our trip. We did see a lot of cool stuff. Oh, we saw a lot. Oh yeah. It ended up being a pretty Ghostbusters centric trip. Yeah.

[00:03:46] And so then I had, to be honest with you, I don't think it really ever crossed my mind when I got there or before I got there. Like I knew what I wanted to see. You know, and we saw that, I think. I like to think so.

[00:03:58] And then it was like, oh yeah, there's this. And I don't know how Nightcourt came about. I don't know why. I was like, oh, let me see if the Nightcourt building is here. Well, I think these things are connected.

[00:04:12] I think that there was something about ghosts and ghouls and Halloween that drew us to Nightcourt because it seemed like Richard Maul was on his way out. Yeah. I mean, we could, I guess we could sense that he was just hanging on. He was almost a specter. Right.

[00:04:32] Maybe. Yeah. It's really something. So we went to the Nightcourt building and the day after we found out that the actor that played Bull died almost exactly when we arrived at the Nightcourt building. Right. So we killed Richard Maul. So our apologies. Yeah.

[00:04:52] And we even didn't even know we were paying respect to him the next day when we went to the Bull statue in Wall Street. That's right. That's right, we did. I think we saw almost everything on accident. Yeah.

[00:05:05] I mean, I think Beastie Boy Square was like the only thing I think we had discussed in advance. Yeah, but we didn't know we were going to go twice. We knew we were going to go twice and just sit there.

[00:05:16] I didn't even know that there was a Beastie Boy Square until you mentioned it and it ended up being a pretty important part of our little excursion. Yeah. I don't know outside of probably Little Italy, it's the only place that we spent

[00:05:32] multiple days at and like significant time at, I suppose. We spent multiple days at a Nike re-stock store. Right. That's right. And again, window shopping. Purchase nothing. Not like we couldn't get these same Nikes on eBay or whatever.

[00:05:52] Yeah, just to be very clear, we didn't even try anything on at any of these places. But for some reason it was sort of like we were in between Nikes and the Ghostbusters fire station. Right. Happened to see a very high quality pizza place.

[00:06:11] One of my favorite parts of the trip, Lombardies. No question. Lombardies was amazing. And that was the place that my buddy had recommended. He had given me a list of restaurants to go to and I hadn't really had the opportunity

[00:06:24] to digest at all and determine where we might be in relation to any of those. And we were getting lost, I think on the way to Little Italy and then you said, hey, this place looks pretty great. And I looked up and I'm like, Lombardies.

[00:06:38] And I'm like, I pulled up his message and I was like, oh, is this on the corner of like, was it spring and mot? And you're pointing it right to like, yeah. So we ended up at the place he recommended for the best pizza.

[00:06:51] And I was not disappointed in these slightest. Food was a big thing. I feel like I ate at least four restaurants that I couldn't have eaten anywhere else in the world. That was a big deal. That was a big deal for me.

[00:07:06] What's one thing that you learned about me, Steve? It's very, very important to you that you do not share a bed with a man because it doesn't matter if you've known this man for probably, you know. Longer than I've been in the tilts.

[00:07:23] And the idea, the sheer idea that if I in the middle of the night when I was very cold because I had nothing but a sheet on and the air conditioner was blasting, the sheer

[00:07:36] concept that I might have like got into that bed was very upsetting to you. And it's probably the... It may be the first time you've ever actually thanked me for anything was thanking me for not getting in that bed.

[00:07:54] To be clear, I take the Bible very literally and when it says a man shall not lie with a man I'm thinking if we're going to do anything it's going to be in the shower because we're

[00:08:03] going to be standing up in the shower lying down is what the sin is. I don't want our listeners to misunderstand we had sex every night. But we didn't lie down while we were having sex and that's... No, no, no, no.

[00:08:16] I know and before I got most of my steps in. Right. I mean, look, I feel like it was important to me going in that we would have separate sleeping places. It's more just sort of a personal space thing than anything else.

[00:08:37] Yeah, because this is where we were kind of at not an impact. We're used to sleeping with like three dogs. Yeah, I don't care. I throw some strangers in the mix man. I don't care. Some stairs. Yeah, the raccoons.

[00:08:53] When you initially had picked out a spot and I would have had no problem staying at the YMCA in bunk beds because it was more of a place to just sort of touch base and the centralized

[00:09:04] concept was great but the idea of a shared bathroom was an issue for me. We had one night we had a shared bathroom and that was at the monastery so I made do.

[00:09:13] I thought that the YMCA would allow me to kind of pretend like I was royal tenon bomb for just a little while. Gotcha, I see. The bathroom didn't really bother me that much.

[00:09:26] I could foresee it being a problem but I thought, if I could save a few hundred bucks, I'd be willing to smell someone else's poop which I did anyway. I smelled your poop. Yeah, well there was poop to be smelled throughout New York.

[00:09:42] Let's be clear, New York was not lacking for PCs. So one thing I learned about you, Steve, was that your comedy works for a room of 100. It can also work for a room of six people.

[00:10:00] I mean it really doesn't change the experience of you depending on who's in the room. Do you give it the same amount of energy regardless and I appreciate that about you. Well I appreciate you appreciating that. It's not something that I did early on in my career.

[00:10:21] Like it would be this sense of like, ugh, I don't want to. Why am I even here? What a waste blah blah blah but then over time I kind of got to the realization that it's not the people that are there fault that other people aren't.

[00:10:33] You know what I mean? So shout out to Nolan who drove all the way up from Baltimore. Absolutely. To see a very interesting bar show. Yeah, you have two options. You could have seen me at the West Side Comedy Club in the Upper West Side of Manhattan

[00:10:53] or you could have gone to Brooklyn at a bar show. To a raucous crowd I might add. Yeah, yeah. That was quite an experience. I enjoyed that quite a bit. The Talon Bar basement which did feel a bit like a dungeon. Yeah.

[00:11:09] You know, it was an experience and I'm glad we had it. It's certainly a memorable experience. I think that maybe Nolan was expecting a more traditional comedy event I would imagine. Yeah, that's kind of what I got out of it.

[00:11:30] But at least he got to buy his drinks. Yeah, so that I mean it wasn't a total waste for him. Thank you. Thank you for the drinks Nolan. Steve, I think this is my most favorite episode. My favoriteest episode of season one.

[00:11:47] So far in the rewatch or all together? I think all together my favorite episode. It also includes my least favorite scene of season one. The drilling in the head or yeah. Yeah. That was the one that took me right out of it.

[00:12:07] But you know, it's sort of like one of these things where it's like there are so many I would say that there are suggestive reveals more than like an actual reveal because you

[00:12:19] know, it's sort of like a reveal that drives the plot forward in an interesting way but preserves the mystery of the plot as well. Yeah. And then I think we have to put it like there are so many questions we have that I think we

[00:12:33] forget how many questions we have. And then so this sort of answers a few but maybe not the ones we're looking for like that we didn't maybe prioritize but because we're getting answers, it's you feel like

[00:12:46] you're sated so that the mystery can keep going without you feeling like yeah. So it's an interesting way of sort of like releasing a pressure valve of information without you know, going full reveal. That's right.

[00:13:00] And the other thing about this episode is that I think it really leans into the religious allegory super heavily and in a way that would normally take me out, you know, at no point was I thinking like I get it, Egan's God and you're the priest, you know.

[00:13:18] Right. At no point was I thought I was like, I see what you're doing. You think you're being clever but this has been done before. I found the whole thing very interesting in a way that I was thinking, how do I use

[00:13:32] this in a class and then I realized, this is impossible. I would never use it for a lot. This sort of the younger more the younger braver Anthony might try to use this in a class and it would probably fail. The old Anthony thinks, I've got a lecture.

[00:13:53] I know it works. I'm sticking with what I do. The younger Anthony would have failed but not realized until older Anthony would look back. That's right. That's right. All right, anyway, I love this episode for a number of reasons and Sarah is really digging this show now too.

[00:14:10] Today was sort of like we watched it in the morning not in the evening and I think she was really excited to talk with me about it but then also a little bit upset with me that I've watched the entire season.

[00:14:25] This is sort of one of those things in my marriage where it's like, I will enjoy this with you differently if I know you've already seen it. I'm always in the position where I'm like, I watch things like five times.

[00:14:41] That's who I am so I would love the second time to be with you and anyway. You're getting the rewatch but you're also getting to see what maybe your reaction would have been from an outside perspective.

[00:14:56] In her defense, her main gripe is that I would like to theorize with you where this story is going. Gotcha, yeah. Because you've watched the whole season, I can't do that. She feels like it like me in a Game of Thrones rewatch with you.

[00:15:15] I feel like just a couple years my dementia will kick in. I won't remember anything anymore and then we'll be good. So anyway, I do really, really like this episode. Maybe I should jump into the recap here. Helly continues her break room confession.

[00:15:36] Milchick concludes the session saying that they will try again in the morning. She leaves and returns seemingly instantaneously. Helly returns to MDR and discusses the voices with Dylan. Then Helly discovers the map.

[00:15:53] So there are a bit happens here that sort of in the middle of that description, but I wanted to talk about this as a unit. I think this is the, we see the confession room most robustly at the beginning of this episode.

[00:16:07] It's a hints that it's sort of like psychological torture, but I don't really feel like I understood the extent of it until this episode. Yeah, and they talk about like the sounds like in they, you know, try to make sense of other

[00:16:20] sounds that they're hearing when they're in there, which is. I have a theory about this, but I won't, I'm not going to talk about it till our spoiler section at the end. Because I did not catch it the first time.

[00:16:33] I didn't think it was important the first time, but there's something about the fact that they're using different voices for different employees. That seems significant to me. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. She says she hears a angry mumbly guy.

[00:16:54] She's like, what's up with the angry mumbly guy? Or what's up with the voices? And then Dylan says, you mean the baby crying in the other room? And she says, no, the angry mumbly guy. So to me, that seems like, they are very intentionally designing this psychological,

[00:17:15] oh, they're looking for a psychological break, right? Right. And you really get the sense that Milchek is, I mean, he's just totally demented. Right. Yeah, there's an interesting detachment, right? I mean, it's because at one hand you kind of go, well, this guy just doing his job. Right.

[00:17:36] But they're even without showing it, there has to be some level of satisfaction that he gets out of this. I don't know. I mean, I'm just thinking like I've had to discipline people before, but to do it

[00:17:53] over a thousand times, to have someone repeat something over a thousand times, that'd be torture for me, even if I was the person demanding that the act being done. Milchek is something else. It's funny, just I think yesterday we had a work meeting with the managers and

[00:18:14] everything we were talking about of all things employee handbook and how we're making some changes and then talking about specific things that seem to be repeated offenses, but the handbook can be depending on how you want to interpret it.

[00:18:33] Maybe it's not explicit enough about things and it's like, well, we try to prescribe exactly the kinds of things you could do on your phone during work. And I'm like, well, just make it pretty blanket. Can't use your phone during work hours for non-work related things.

[00:18:51] And that feels a little less open to interpretation. But there's like, well, I mean, maybe they need to text a coworker or a manager. I'm like, well, that's work related. So they wanted to spell everything out.

[00:19:06] And so but then we started talking about having to do different warnings and verbal warnings and written warnings. And I said, one of the things that ends up happening more often than not. And there was a study that was kind of presented at one of the places I've

[00:19:21] worked where this says as managers you'll spend like 80% of your time with the lowest 10% of your employees, like in terms of productivity, because you're trying to get them to be better. So you're actually spending a ton of time just trying to push this rock up hill.

[00:19:38] Meanwhile, you're actually losing some of your high performers because they feel like they're not getting challenged or developed or enough attention. Oh, this is exactly the thing that teachers go through. And so, you know, so going back to your point, it's like the idea

[00:19:52] of like when you have somebody who's like it needs to be disciplined or you have to go through a performance improvement plan. I'm like, it's it's grueling for me as the manager. I putting somebody on a performance improvement plan. Like it's all consuming for me.

[00:20:06] I feel like I'm in trouble. And so so for and so I'm trying to like so sometimes like my instinct is like, I was just close enough. Let's just call it. Whereas with Milcek, there's none of that, you know?

[00:20:19] And so either he is an absolute soldier for the company or he's just attached enough where it's like, I could do this. I could do this forever. And that either that either is detachment or there is a level of maybe a sadism.

[00:20:35] It's interesting to see the level of devotion by all of these different employees. I feel like Mark when Mark is trying to be a manager. He's put in a position where he has to defend the institution.

[00:20:49] Even if it sounds a little bit like an apologist, you know, it's like that. That's why we have the handbook. That's why we have the rule so you don't have to go to the break room. Right. You know, he's like, you know, he's basically defending

[00:21:02] the institution's policy on torture by trying to keep people in line. And at one point you've got Cobel in her office. And I still don't know really what Cobel has in mind. Like she's clearly an institutional creature, but she also really cares for Mark on some level.

[00:21:21] And she's like repeating Lumen's core principles to herself under her breath. Like almost looking for spiritual guidance. Right. Feels like it's like for her, like from the religious perspective, it's a discipline. Like there are people like in whatever the faith

[00:21:40] based system might be, there are those who are just I'm in, you know, I believe I believe it all. And other folks is like, you know, I really don't know how much I believe in what I'm hearing or what I'm told to believe.

[00:21:52] But I believe that I should believe. So I'm going to I'm going to just really yourself to. Yeah, I just I just if I say it enough, if I listen to the right, you know, audio tapes, I listen to the right music. I divorce myself of certain things.

[00:22:09] And maybe it'll just click because like because you know, and that, you know, that was kind of always my experience, I think in the religious world was everybody else seems to be doing really good at it. And I'm just not. And I go, I'll try this out.

[00:22:24] I'll maybe I won't have this in my life. And maybe puppets will do it for me. Maybe. But yeah, this will be the thing that that makes it click. And so like, so when you see, I think there's something interesting too about

[00:22:37] Cobel with the finger trap, which I thought I thought was an amazing image because, yeah. You know, you get the sense that like these are just things that like it's there were these ridiculous and absurd trinkets that like Dylan refers to

[00:22:53] is like, it's not really so much the functionality as it is. Like, look how many I have, right? Like they're they're just symbols of trophy. Yeah, they're there's symbols of success. And for her, she's just she's she's exercising with the finger trap,

[00:23:06] which I feel like in a way like it's like she's it's such a weird moment because she's turning into something functional. And like I would love to have known where that and where it came from.

[00:23:17] Like, was she just having in the drawer because, you know, they hand them out and she's just but it shows that there's not failed O and D. Yeah, it's like there's like not a lot of things to do there.

[00:23:29] Like if you're in your if you're in your office a lot of times, like, yeah, nobody's here. I'll just kind of search the web or on my phone. But like there's something like she's like trying to find something.

[00:23:39] And it's like it's a symbol of the of the place, you know, and it's a symbol to the to the subjects of of importance. So maybe she's trying it on to see if that will also help. You know, this whole fake it to make it.

[00:23:54] Yeah, she she is kind of a fake it till you make it. And people in different religions have mantras and you know, choosing a mantra says something about you, I think. And some some people like will pray with a cross.

[00:24:07] Maybe the finger trap is sort of like something tactile to direct your attention, which is kind of funny in itself because it's a trap. Right. So but the well, it's a self inflicted trap, right? Like in this case, which I think is good, right?

[00:24:25] Like it's it's it's very finger trap is always self inflicted unless there's an older brother or sister involved. Right. So the idea like so I love the idea that there's like you know, like two sides of her right?

[00:24:37] Two fingers in a self inflicted trap and and she's but she's doing it in such a way where she's like going fast enough so that she keeps herself in it while she's doing the mantra. And I think that there's a lot of really interesting symbolism there.

[00:24:52] I think so too. We'll talk about that with Helly a little bit later. I do think that it's so Milchik seems all in all the time. I've never seen a side of him that suggests, although he is reading

[00:25:06] the the the Wriken book, which it would be his policy. Right. So so then you've got Mark who sort of like pretty like his his in his private life. He's kind of questioning and he's a little bit rebellious,

[00:25:22] but the sort of like the manager face is that he's very, you know, company man. Dylan seems to be the same all the time, although he's he does believe these. You know, these false, I know, this false propaganda about O and D. Right.

[00:25:43] So he's kind of bought into the. He's he's bought into the corporate culture of it, but he kind of doesn't view it as sacred. It's like it's more of a tribal thing. Right. Yeah. I think tribal is a great word.

[00:25:56] Like I'm loyal to this team because it's my team. That's right. Not not necessarily like it, but if I was in O and D, I'd be against macro data refinement. And then of course, Helly is not broken yet. She's not been broken in. She's an independent autonomous person.

[00:26:16] And so she she needs over a thousand confessions to try to create create a sort of a corporate stooge. Right. And and we get it. I mean, we get glimpses that we we don't know exactly, but Marcus clearly had his time in the break room.

[00:26:38] He knows about the bad soap. Like he knows about a lot of a lot of punishments, which seems to indicate that maybe he had some sort of a similar beginning. I think so. I think so. And I want to talk about that in a bit.

[00:26:56] One other thing I wanted to mention and I kind of made a note with a question mark is that like they find the map and then they discover that Mark is sort of hypocritical, right? He's he's kept the map. And someone and I forget who says it.

[00:27:13] Quotes the handbook and says, render not my creation and miniature. Right. Yeah. Great. And so I thought that was pretty funny. And then. So it certainly feels like like a parody of false gods, right? I wrote down idolatry. Yeah.

[00:27:31] Yeah. Down like this is this is this sort of a homage or a parody of the instruction not to create an, you know, little little gods that you worship, a stone that you worship. And maybe not.

[00:27:48] But then as this thing goes forward and there's so many other biblical illusions, I thought that that must have been on purpose. And it also made me like made me realize, oh, that's why this this museum, the hall of perpetuity is is the way it is.

[00:28:08] No, life size. It's all. Or it has to be bigger or whatever, but it can't be in miniature. Right. And it almost feels like and then you wonder, right? Like you wonder was that Kier's intent to have that? Or was that like, well, we want to do something,

[00:28:23] but we know it can't be miniature. So I think we can still get away with this, but he was specific about being miniature. Like also, so like going back to what I was talking about,

[00:28:30] like, well, you can always like find a way around the rules in the handbook if you interpret them a certain way. So all right. So then next next scene, Mark misses a call on P.D.'s phone

[00:28:43] and stashes it noticing several missed calls from the same block number. The next day, he studies P.D.'s map in the break room Bert shows up at MDR with a pre-release of totes. I just, I was more excited about the totes. Yeah.

[00:29:06] Like the idea of like a pre-release drop, it was just they were so stoked. Dylan. I love it because it's like, but who are you? Like, who would you even show that off to you? Don't work with any other.

[00:29:20] It's like there's an entire wing of this institution with seven people and their whole job is to make the place just slightly more artistic for four other people. That we know of. All right, Dylan threatens Bert with a stapler.

[00:29:44] Irv goes to a D where he makes a connection with Bert. This man, I just Dylan just doesn't disappoint. It's not like he's holding it like a bludgeon. Like we've seen a stapler actually used as a weapon in the show already. He's holding it like a gun.

[00:30:03] Like he's going to shoot these staples. So I've a wonderful scene. Great Irv episode. And I think that this what this episode does is it opens doors to a possible development of Irv's character beyond like the caricature that he originally was.

[00:30:30] Well, and I think that that's a fascinating part of this is because we know like he operates as a caricature, but it almost feels like this is this is what happens when you do this long enough.

[00:30:44] Right. You become less of a person and more of, you know, a role, right? And so he he is so by the book and he is so paranoid about everything and wanting people to get in trouble.

[00:30:57] Like he's like that's like kind of feels like these are trajectories, right? And and so because he's been there so long and because he's older, you know, he's he's become less and less. And so the idea that that there's still something that's in there

[00:31:15] kind of goes back to this whole experiment, which feels like that's like this feels like an experiment. Right. I mean, from at least trying to figure out the cobell selvic motivation. It's like, I keep going back and forth with like, is this is this company

[00:31:29] sanctioned? Is this independent? Is a little bit of both? Because she goes to get the the PD chip. Milchick doesn't go get the PD chip. Why couldn't he? You know, which you know, so there's an interesting element of a questionable agency

[00:31:45] across the board. Right. Well, she I think she has to go off script a bit to do this. But it's OK, right? It seems like it's OK. But why wouldn't somebody else go? I mean, they know about it.

[00:31:56] Yeah, my feeling is that if so, the fact that PD is on the loose is being hung on her. The milchick isn't getting berated by the board because PD is on the loose. And and I think that they know that they need that chip like they

[00:32:16] they need to get PD back, not because they want to get PD back, because I want to get his chip back. I think that's the impression. Now, Milchick knows this, but it's not going to be hung on milchick if it goes up in the cremation.

[00:32:31] So I feel like she thinks this is on me. If I want to keep my job, I've got to get a little bit creative here. And so I'm going to do it myself. That that's how I read it anyway. OK. This all right.

[00:32:46] So this is interesting to me because this is one of those reveals that. Irv has a romantic connection with Bert. He's found a way to find a bit of humanity just in this little world, right?

[00:33:05] And he found it by like, you know, looking at the two or three paintings that they have on hand in any given time. But he's also made this human real life human connection with a possible romantic interest. And this suggests he's not

[00:33:24] you can't reduce him to just corporate stooge, right? There's more to him than just that. Yeah, for sure. And and so then there's a bunch of other questions we don't, you know, at this point we have we've only seen. We've only seen Mark outside.

[00:33:40] We only see Audi Mark and recordings of Audi, Helli, right? So we still have a lot of questions about the rest of these folks. And so like the whole Irv concept is like, well, is he, you know, is this because like is this romantic relationship

[00:34:04] one of those things where it's like, well, you know, because I work with them. Or is, you know, is there something else? Right. Is there something right? Yeah, I mean, because I get something interesting about being at work, right? You have work friends and

[00:34:24] and then if you leave the job, it's pretty rare, at least for me, that those friendships continue. So this is their world, right? This is all they have. And it's like so there's also a part that's kind of like, well,

[00:34:37] there's this attraction genuine, you know, I mean, I believe it is. But it's like, is it also like, well, here's somebody who appreciates things that like I do. And this is the closest thing to finding kind of like a soulmate.

[00:34:51] So yeah, they're kind of kindred spirits in the sense like he can quote chapter and verse from the handbook. And he really does appreciate the corporate endorsed artwork. And with that, there's like, OK, well,

[00:35:06] you're one of the few people that get me deep down in some part of my subconscious, I have a longing for relationship, a romantic relationship, perhaps. And this is this is what I think I would want out of, you know,

[00:35:20] so it doesn't matter if it's Christopher Walken or not. You know, like I want that's one from a from like a psychological study perspective, that's kind of what I like curious about, right? Because I don't know anything about or beyond beyond this world.

[00:35:35] Next little bit, Rickens book left behind by Milchak during Helli's attempted escape, Mark decides to keep the book despite promising to give it up to management. And this is sort of where I thought that the biblical allegory is most sort of in your face.

[00:35:58] There's this, you know, they quote the handbook saying, you know, don't, you know, don't dabble in the works of lesser man or something like that. Right. And oh, this is Sol Scriptura. That's what this is. This is, you know, no book but the Bible.

[00:36:16] And then of course, you've got Irv who thinks it's been left as a loyalty test. Right. Yeah. Which is to me, you know, it's this is sort of like these fundamentalists who believe that the dinosaur bones who were put there to test our faith or something. Right.

[00:36:33] And that there's no accidents, right? There's no. Right. Everything is, I mean, and for good reason, they are being watched. Right. Sure. We don't know when they're being watched, but, you know, Irv, you know, Irv is right to be paranoid.

[00:36:51] Of course, you know, you never, you know, this is always the problem with conspiracy theories is that you always sort of give too much credit to the higher ups when really they're probably just as stupid as anyone else. Right. Yeah, for sure.

[00:37:05] Yeah. So you're giving credit both directions, right? I mean, it's it's but yeah, I don't know the idea that it's it's like, well, there's no way that they would have made a mistake. So so we, you know, and that's where conspiracy theories come along.

[00:37:21] It's like from this very strange place. So I I thought and this sort of doesn't come up till later, but I'm going to bring it up to this point in the story. So Rickon and crew Rickon includes this acrostic called destiny.

[00:37:37] So he like uses this poem and used the letters of the word destiny to kind of create a list of things that he thinks are important. You know, dream, energy, terror and so on and so forth. And I thought this was an interesting

[00:37:56] counterbalance to sort of the Lumen core principles. They're just sort of simple abstract concepts. And yet the Lumen seems like the Lumen core principles are used to suppress your humanity, right? You're supposed to you're supposed to cheer as one of the the principles.

[00:38:15] You're supposed to, you know, endorse and embody cheer, but you're not supposed to like it any more than the other. Right. Yeah, I love that. Which means it's almost it's almost impossible to make happen. And then this one is like, you know, the ideas of like dreaming

[00:38:33] and energy that breaks down walls and terror, you know, these are all bits of sort of the chaotic human experience, which I think Rickon intends to like, you know, use for self discovery or something like that.

[00:38:48] But for the characters in this, which might just be total bullshit or whatever, but for the characters in the story, I think that they're realizing there's more in the world than just the handbook. And it might be just as, you know, just as gratifying,

[00:39:07] just as it might be just as revelatory as the handbook. So I thought that was a nice little parallel between the destiny poem and the Lumen core principles. Yeah, yeah. And then I just love to that somehow Rickon again, again.

[00:39:30] And you know, maybe this is a reader response thing. It's like it's not that Rickon is brilliant. It's just that you received it in a way that changed your life. Right. And then also the if it's how does someone rebel against the system that they've grown up with?

[00:39:44] It's just seem maybe something different. So maybe, you know, maybe it's it's not a nuanced approach to to changing one's lifestyle so much as it is. This is a different thing. So I'm already interested. Next storyline here. Hell, he finds a paper cutter and threatens cobell with self

[00:40:05] mutilation unless she is granted a recorded resignation request. However, her Audi sends back a recording firmly denying the request. And for me, this is what made the episode this sort of to me, this is the thing that I like most about this. And it's a reveal, I think.

[00:40:30] Helly's Audi is her own antagonist, which we didn't know until this point, at least at this level. Right. To the point where she I'm a person and you're not. Yeah. Yeah. That is such a I mean, that was kind of a mind blowing moment

[00:40:48] because you just figure is well, if there's anybody in this entire universe I can rationalize with it's myself. Right. Yeah. I must be me outside. Who would who if if there's only one person in this world that has my best interest in mind, it's me.

[00:41:06] So she she makes this plea and she does this extreme thing so that she can finally let her Audi know what's really going on. And the Audi is like, don't care. Not only does she not care, she calls her bluff and says,

[00:41:21] if you chop off my fingers, I'll make sure I keep you alive long enough to regret it. Wild. Those are your fingers. Right. Those that's actually your brain to some degree is having this conversation with you. It's it's it's goofy.

[00:41:40] And it makes you wonder like, what are the stakes? Like, what are the Helly's Audi must have some motivation that supersedes self-preservation? Because we've seen because we got a glimpse of Helly's Audi during the operation, right? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:59] And they were all like there was there was an honor to have her. And she seemed pretty, you know, pretty upbeat, you know, she seemed like asking a lot of questions and and. Well, she acts like someone who has a public face.

[00:42:18] You know, you know, there were excited to have you. And when she tries to escape the first time, she's sort of like lasted off. But I really don't want to be in there. Do I? You know, it's kind of like the voice you would use at work

[00:42:31] with someone you want to sort of keep a superficial relationship with. Now we see that she's a monster. She is a moral monster. And it's such a it's such a and it creates the so not like you were talking

[00:42:47] about like these little questions start getting answered and like, and this this creates a whole new mystery. Right? I mean, this is something that's just it's baffling to think about that you would sit there and, you know, because it's such an abstract concept anyway.

[00:43:03] But the idea that you would tell a version of yourself that you're not around or basically threaten it, right? I mean, that's such a banana's idea. And it also kind of goes back to the metaphor of the finger trap, right?

[00:43:19] Like how are you going to finger trap me if I've got no fingers? So and then, of course, I think this foreshadows how this episode ends. Sorry, how are you going to trap me if there's no me? Everything this show is just really tightly tightly crafted.

[00:43:38] Well, and consider and considering now Helli's in his perspective, in her mind, well, I am a person. And, you know, I and if you're going to sit, if the other version of me is going to say that I'm not and they basically created me this way.

[00:44:00] I mean, killing oneself is she's killing her out. That's the only way she could get. How do you get back at your Audi? Right, because it's like, look, I don't want to be here. And since you're not going to set me free, I'll get rid of you too.

[00:44:16] So it's an interesting way to look at that. Like I don't look at that as an attempted suicide. I look at this as an attempted murder. It's interesting. I mean, but it is. I mean, there is a sense in which this this shows playing with

[00:44:30] the duality of the work self and the outside self, right? Mm hmm. And it could be that you're working a job that's killing you. Yeah, you keep going back, keep going back, you know? The version of you that's at work that's miserable

[00:44:46] has to be, you know, has to come face to face with the person outside. That's like, yeah, but, you know what? I got a lot of bills to pay. Or I have come, I've become accustomed to this, this other life, these accoutrements of my Audi life.

[00:45:01] Or this is the life I've made for myself, like it or not. And, you know, and now I'm committed. I want to jump to the funeral here. So that to me, that last part was maybe my favorite part of the show so far.

[00:45:15] And then this next part is seems a little out of place. So both Mark and Miss Selvig slash Cobel attend the funeral. Mark has a few awkward exchanges with Pee's family. While a video plays of June and Pee Dee playing guitar,

[00:45:34] Cobel extracts Pee Dee's severance chip prior to his cremation. Mark visits the tree where his wife died. I like this scene for the most part. I didn't buy that you could just walk up to a body and drill into its head, perform surgery in the other room

[00:45:56] without anyone noticing that this is happening. Well, so yeah, so that on one hand you go, yeah, it doesn't seem super logical. But then I think it does kind of go back to this other notion of like, I'm like, I start to question the outside world.

[00:46:12] Maybe that's true. Maybe it's like this is this whole this whole place is lumen, right? Right. Maybe they put, you know, lumens subsidized housing. Yeah. But then how much agency do these people have? It seems like. Well, that's I think the big question, right?

[00:46:29] I mean, I don't know. You know, I mean, am I supposed to think that Pee Dee's ex-wife has a chip in her head who's and she's like, they press the pause button so she can only look forward.

[00:46:41] I don't think that the show is trying to tell me that story. But maybe it is. Well, I've been to a few memorial services and, you know what? I mean, people could have been drilling things. There's always people drilling into people's skulls. I have no idea. Digging around.

[00:46:58] I mean, it was a I mean, I am a fan of Enter Sandman. So you got my attention, even if it's an awkward cover. What did you think about the Enter Sandman cover? Very long, right? And it's kind of hypnotic in a way.

[00:47:16] You know, it really wants to really sets up a relationship between, you know, father and daughter for sure. Maybe a little bit on the nose in terms of the song choice. Yeah, no, I thought it was I mean, for a show that really likes to play with imagery.

[00:47:34] The lyrics of that song are pretty evocative for the themes in this show. Right. And then, yeah. And so there's that. But then there's also like an interesting like. A show that's very patient in a lot of what it does with camera angles and extended shots.

[00:47:51] And and I take whenever they take their time on something, I feel like it's worth paying attention to. Like not just what's happening, but maybe why it's happening. So this extended. Like almost. Trans like moment where you're just watching this over and over.

[00:48:11] And meanwhile, there's a whole, you know, an extraction of the PD's chip. It it's sort of like I'm like, I'm really I'm really drawn in because then I'm like, well, what is. I understand the importance of the chip. Yeah. From a from a corporate perspective.

[00:48:31] But I'm like, what maybe there's more to this chip than we realize. I think so too. I was just going to say when they when she gets the chip and brings it back and gives it to Milchek. They both say this is PD.

[00:48:45] And they don't say this is PD chip. They say this is PD. And it makes me wonder, like, did they have a cloning operation in the back and they can stick this chip in the new clone and. And that's yeah. So I start thinking clones.

[00:49:00] I start thinking, wait, maybe these folks aren't actually getting severed. Maybe they're created. Or and they're getting turned on and off or there's it's fascinating, right? Because that there's it again. If maybe maybe we're doing the same thing as when they find the

[00:49:19] handbook, but it feels like there's no accidents when it comes to. How things are worded. Maybe this is this is informative of Helly's Audi's response. Like yeah, go ahead and chop off the fingers. This is you know, we'll just we'll just get a new model and

[00:49:37] insert the chip into a new model. I don't know if there's all kinds of questions. Yeah. Yeah, because I mean, she specifically says, I'm a person, you're not and we're so we're like, wait, is it is this clones? Is this something else? Is that really?

[00:49:58] You know, I get the sense that it is still the same person, but. But yeah, the idea that you needed that chip back or maybe does it just have information? You know, is it? It's not that they're worried about it getting out into the

[00:50:11] world, it's going to get cremated. So they must need the right they need it. Yeah. Yeah. So the other thing that Sarah noticed that I didn't notice is that when Mark is at the funeral and talking with June,

[00:50:27] whose PD's daughter, she says, you know, she kind of mocks the idea of trying to deal with your grief by shutting your brain off half of the time. Right? Like me maybe that's not such a good idea. Mark says, I don't really have an answer to that.

[00:50:45] And Sarah mentioned that this suggests that PD had some kind of trauma and that's why he joined. Because, you know, I mean, clearly June doesn't know about Mark's trauma and why he joined the women. So she must be talking about PD, but we don't know what

[00:51:03] PD's trauma was. Oh yeah, good point. So that it's an interesting little bit that's dropped. And I think it's supposed to help with Mark's character development, but it does sort of suggest that we don't know everything about PD that we need to know. Right.

[00:51:20] No, that's a good point. I just thought that the whole drilling thing was a bit of a departure for the show in the same way that sort of the Audi video reveal was all set up like every episode created a little bit of a step toward that reveal.

[00:51:41] I felt like the drilling bit of it was, maybe they didn't set that up well enough. It did make me feel like, this is a different show? Like what am I watching here? It feels like a different show.

[00:51:53] I mean, it is a different director in this episode, right? For the first time. I guess it isn't the first time we've seen a skull drilled. I mean, I see, I see. I guess I was more, I was more locked in on the idea of

[00:52:08] is Cobale going rogue? Yeah. Is this, you know, because it's a pretty desperate and risky thing she's doing. And, you know, while it's gruesome, it also suggests to me that Cobale does not see these people as people either.

[00:52:29] I mean, for her to just drill into the skull of one of her subjects or people that she saw all the time, suggests something kind of similar to the way that we saw with Milchek doing in the confession or the break room is that there is a detachment.

[00:52:46] And so it does question, right? I mean, like if you're, because she does seem somewhat human, right? I mean, she at least has the ability to fake it as Selvig. But there is something about her that feels more more vulnerable than a Milchek, right?

[00:53:04] Like the way that she sort of seems lesser than when she's dealing with a board. And so we get the little senses of her insecurity. So she feels human, maybe more so than Milchek does.

[00:53:17] So when she has the ability to just go ahead and drill into the guy's skull, it's like, is that because she's focused on this task and you know, the end justifies the means? Or is there something about Peaty that's not human to her?

[00:53:32] Also, she has that exchange with June, his daughter, right? She's like, were you a friend? I'm his daughter. And she was like, hmm, hmm. So you must have been close, I guess. Close and all that or something like that. It was really just a way to say it.

[00:53:52] And part of me thought, do you really not know that he's got a daughter? Because it seems like you know everything about everyone. Or is this just your way to make this girl leave the room? Because you know that you need to start drilling or something.

[00:54:09] It's an off. Her character is maybe the weirdest person of it. You know what you just said about not viewing them as humans, I do think she does care about Mark on some level, but maybe she just cares about Mark like when we care about a pet.

[00:54:27] And not necessarily like an actual human. Yeah, because she's observing him a lot. Right? I mean, but she doesn't mind stealing from him. I mean, she takes the candle and then we see the candle. And this is her doing.

[00:54:45] And so that's another thing is like, is this her? Is this Lumen? And to what end? Like her relationship with Mark is very unique. Well, her relationship with Lumen is somewhat unique because it seems like what they do is they just apply pressure and say solve the problem.

[00:55:06] They never kind of it doesn't seem like they're micromanaging her. They just they don't really care what she does as long as she gets results. So it's almost like incumbent upon her to get creative. The candle thing is important though.

[00:55:24] Because again, Sarah knows this and I did not. But he's been using the candle at home to remember his wife. He goes downstairs in the basement and he sniffs the candle. Right. And then Cobel takes the candle. And then in this episode, the candle is burning

[00:55:45] in the room during the special wellness check. Right. So I think that there's something about, OK, we want you to remember and not remember at the same time. Yes, it's interesting because it does on one hand you go,

[00:56:03] is this just a test to see what the memory is? Because, you know, we see those tests in the when Helli's first there and they ask questions about, you know, long term, short term. And then like right before she got in there kind of questions.

[00:56:18] So it's like it could be an opportunity like, hey, we're going to take something super personal and connected to you and we're going to bring it into this world. You know, it could be like like a fatigue test, you know, an environmental test.

[00:56:32] See is this is this still working the way it's supposed to work? Or but then the other hand is like, or is this is there something bigger experiment going on here? Because I mean, what does he do when he's in the room? Or does she really care?

[00:56:48] Or does she really care and thinks he needs to agree? Maybe he needs this. I care about him and he won't be able to remember but the smell, but the, you know, the sense of smell is so connected connected to memory.

[00:57:01] And because he smells the candle, he's able to sculpt the tree. Right. Right. So maybe on some level she's like. I think if in order for him to function, he needs some sort of grieving process, even if it's on some kind of subconscious level.

[00:57:21] Or this is all part of the big experiment. I don't. Right. And so what we learn, what we are learning, at least in that scene, regardless of what the motivations of Cobel and or Lumen is, we are we now

[00:57:35] are able to make a connection that says, well, there is something in there. Yeah. There there, you know, will it come out eventually? You know, to what are the boundaries of it? It shows that you can't you're not completely severed

[00:57:49] like severance is not it shows that it's not complete. And either that's a testament to the human brain or it's or it's something about the sever process. So there is something about that, that it's like that's our first moment where I think we realize, well,

[00:58:06] so it almost undercuts somewhat of the clone concept. Right. Maybe because this because this suggests that it feels like it goes more to like, OK, this probably the same person. Because if you created somebody who did not have any memory of that, why would it come about?

[00:58:25] Maybe or the chip moves from clone to clone. So there's a sense in which it is the same person. Hmm. I honestly, I have no idea. Irving discovers that O and D actually has at least seven seven employees working in a massive, unlabeled back room.

[00:58:45] And then he has a discussion with Bert about the handbook. And to me, this is sort of the most revealing scene in terms of. Irves character development, if you go up until this scene, Irving is sort of your classic corporate stooge religious fundamentalist kind of person.

[00:59:10] Then Bert kind of opens up this new way of reading the handbook in a way that no one else in the show would have been able to do it. So he has this romantic connection with Bert and then Irve has this discussion.

[00:59:28] And Bert ends up being able to quote chapter and verse. And he says, I'm an original, you know, I'm sort of a first edition kind of guy. Mm-hmm. And basically what he's doing is he's saying, I have figured out, and here's a direct quote from Bert.

[00:59:49] He says, he finds other ways to speak to us, meaning Egan, right? So Egan here is a stand in for God. And what it suggests is that, look, there's, you can have a more creative approach to the handbook. And it's not sacrilegious.

[01:00:08] And I think if this was put forward by Mark or Dylan or whatever, Irve would think these are not serious people. They don't have the reverence I do for the corporation or Egan or whatever.

[01:00:24] But because it's Bert and because he knows that Bert is sort of a kindred spirit and Bert might know the handbook better than I do. And I know that Bert has the necessary reverence for Egan. Maybe I could learn something from this guy.

[01:00:42] And then, of course, his world opens up because basically what this is doing is saying, you can have a dynamic rather than a static view of the handbook. Right. And all of a sudden, now we see Irve on a different path.

[01:00:59] He's the kind of person who might be listening for Egan's voice in other places like maybe in Rick and his book or maybe the corporate structure doesn't have the perfect interpretation of Egan's original intent. Now he's, his life is more dynamic because of this.

[01:01:20] And in some ways he can become less of maybe a foil to any effort to undermine the environment that's in with the, because now he's not, because just the idea of like whatever, if the goal was to make him less open-minded now he's, it's gone the other way.

[01:01:44] Right. Yeah. Yeah. So he's kind of, you're kind of seeing a different side of Irve in that he's more human than he was before. He's, so he's not just a corporate stooge, but now he's more open to an alternative hermeneutic.

[01:02:02] And Bert's the only one in the story that would be able to do that for him. Right. So I thought that was, that was real. I mean, this is where the allegory really, really works

[01:02:12] because it's really difficult to ever kind of bring a new hermeneutic to a sacred time. It's almost like the case with anything, right? I mean, whatever it is you hold sacred, whatever it is that you've, you know, basically built your ethos from.

[01:02:30] I remember when I was 10 years old and I got a cabin with my family and my dad's reading the newspaper and it's an interview with Macha Man Randy Savage. And he like walked over to where I sit and he plopped the newspaper down and says, read this article.

[01:02:48] Up until that point I was a firm believer that everything in professional wrestling was on the up and up. It's all legitimate fighting. The outcomes are not predetermined. And in this article, the Macha Man betrayed all of my sensibilities

[01:03:09] because he basically came out and said the whole thing is scripted. And I couldn't deal with it. I was like, my whole world was kind of like turned upside down. I thought how can this be true? And the other thing also be true.

[01:03:25] And that was one of the moments in my life where I realized that I couldn't trust everything I saw on WWF. Wow. I mean, that's a tough moment for anybody. My dad, my dad did this to me.

[01:03:47] I mean from his perspective, he's like, look, I've been trying to preach to you, but if I can't get through it either way, the Macho Man can. That was exactly it because he would always say this is not real. And I would say it absolutely is real.

[01:03:59] To me, it was real. I never believed in Santa Claus, but that was my Santa Claus moment. Macho Man Randy Savage was my Santa Claus. Yeah. And the weird part is this will be like an elf coming down from the North Pole

[01:04:14] to tell you that there is no Santa. You're like, I don't understand what's going on because I see you. Why are you saying the thing? Because you only exist in this world. I think that that leaves us with the final scene.

[01:04:32] So, Helly smuggles out in an extension cord and hangs herself in an elevator shaft. And this is sort of cut together with scenes of Dylan finding Rickens book and Mark going through his special wellness check. So I think that they want to see those,

[01:04:58] they want us to see those particular scenes in parallel. But for me, the major explanation point is the actual suicide attempt. So there's something parallel about finding Rickens book for Dylan, building the tree out of clay, sculpting the tree out of clay for Mark and Helly's suicide attempt.

[01:05:30] Can you help me with those parallels? Well, you have three subversions of the Lumen process, right? And there are three very different ways. One is hijacking and taking full agency. I'm in control. I'm going to kill myself and my Audi. That's how this ends.

[01:05:54] Dylan is having, he basically it's kind of like, I took a bite of the apple. I'm going to see what's going on here. And so he's about to, you know, could be that he's about to read this and suddenly his world is going to change.

[01:06:11] And it's going to change in a way that like he's getting introduced to the outside world. So this part of him that only exists in there is also going to experience a death or transition of some sort. Meanwhile, Mark is in a place where he has,

[01:06:26] everything suggests he has zero agency. He's being assigned a wellness check. He's going to be walked through it by Miss Casey, but he has a moment where agency finds him. Yeah, he almost has this sort of emotional bridge to the outside world that shouldn't be possible, right? Right.

[01:06:47] So each one of them is like one grabs it. One is sort of introduced to it. And the other one just sort of happens with absolutely no control over it. So, but like all three of them, to me, it suggests that they're all now

[01:07:04] about to hit the same path with different ways, like different mechanisms, right? That are probably more, they're really in line with their personality types that we've seen. Helli is going to make it happen. She is going to do it against all odds. Mark is super passive.

[01:07:24] The only way that anything's going to happen to him is if it's involuntary. And Dylan loves the goss, he loves the hot goss. He wants to hear what's going on. The only way you're going to get to Dylan is you're going to,

[01:07:37] it's going to come through another channel. You know, and then he will then do what he wants to do with it because like the same way that he believes in all the lore of O&D and all of the other stories, it's like he likes to get,

[01:07:49] he likes to get information. Yeah, he wants the dirt. And so here's like a naughty reveal to some degree. So he's going to, he's more than likely going to be like, this is what I'm in, do now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. I like that.

[01:08:06] And then of course we already talked about herbs transition moment with Bert, right? So, with each of our sort of lumen employees, each of the four, they each have a transformational moment in this episode. Right. And it all is to upset, not, yeah, whatever, wherever they are

[01:08:34] with the severance process. After this was done, after the episode was over, Sarah was like, was that the season finale? It really does feel like a massive hinge point in the story. Right. So that, so anyway, I love this episode. Fantastic. The drill notwithstanding. Fantastic episode. Spoilers?

[01:09:00] Spoiler talk? So jump off if you don't want spoilers. A couple of things I noticed. Well, we know Helly doesn't die, right? So, right. So that's sort of a, I guess you could say come to Jesus moment. Maybe for her Audi. We'll see how that develops.

[01:09:23] I thought it was interesting that Dylan hears a baby and Helly hears a mumbly, angry guy. Right. We know that Dylan is a father. So maybe they're using his own child's crying to kind of psychologically break him. So yeah, so that does sort of almost suggest that maybe

[01:09:49] the candle issue was a known possibility. The candle issue was done and the other thing is that, do I remember correctly that Miss Casey ends up is, is Mark's wife? Yeah. Here we have a situation where Miss Casey and Mark S are in the same room

[01:10:09] trying to heal Mark's grief using the candle that they have clearly connects them in some way, right? Right. And that's I think the most wild part of that scene when you know it. It's like that's husband and wife.

[01:10:25] She's like, we don't want to have any idea when this show is over how in the hell she fits into the Lumen plan. And so that brings up all other kinds of questions, right? I mean, we've already heard the talking from P.

[01:10:48] That there are people that never leave Lumen. And you know, we don't know. We don't know who they are. Never mentioned of clones, but there was that room, that room of, was it goats or sheep or something later on? So that's suggestive of clones, maybe.

[01:11:06] But you know, you got that discussion of PD's chip that this is PD, right? So maybe, maybe it's a clone of his wife. Right. I mean, it also brings like, so then it just opens up another bunch of questions,

[01:11:23] which is like, what is Mark's memory of his wife in the out world? Is that real? Is it was she assigned to him in that world? I mean, there's so many odd things, right?

[01:11:39] I mean, it's just, and that's what I think I like about what the show does to you by kind of just giving you these little trickles of reveals. We become almost like the, like Irv in that regard.

[01:11:53] It's like, all we can do is try to connect the dots. And that's kind of what, that's kind of what like a lot of religions will do though, right? You give just enough.

[01:12:02] And then it's like, yeah, we know that maybe some of this text is flawed and this and that. So we'll spend our entire lives connecting those dots with theories and this and that and that helps build the faith.

[01:12:11] And the next thing you know, your foundations for what you consider sacred or maybe not in the text, but you're left to your own devices to fill in those blanks. So I think I missed the candle at least twice watching this.

[01:12:28] And Sarah's the one that kind of brought that up. But for me, it's such an important little detail because this whole thing is about memory and of course smell is very, very connected to memory. And so it really does come back to what Cobel's motives are.

[01:12:47] And that to me is one of the chief things that I'm worried about going into season two. What it, what's going on with Cobel? Like what motivates her? And how much agency does she really have if any like one and the Miss Casey idea is like,

[01:13:10] I mean, unlike anybody else in this, in this world, right? Like Milchek and Cobel obviously are aware of everything that's going on. We assume at least in terms of what the Lumen project,

[01:13:26] a bigger slice of the, they know at least a few more slices of the pie than maybe some of the rest of them do. But I don't know who knows what the whole picture looks like. Right. We don't know for sure.

[01:13:37] I mean, we get the, we get this, well, we see Milchek present for Helle's operation. So we know he exists outside and inside and from everything we can gather, he does not, he's not severed. But Miss Casey is a different one because she's to our,

[01:14:00] we don't know if there's more than one of her in the department. She operates at a very robotic, very matter of fact level, which nobody else that we have in this world does. I mean, even though Irv is a, you know, kind of a corporate chill,

[01:14:19] he operates like a person in most cases and whereas she seems... What if the only thing that we saw of Milchek was in the break room? We might, we might feel the same thing. Well that's it, but... Miss Casey, we don't know what else...

[01:14:38] But so Miss Casey is she, well, we assume she severed? We don't know. We don't really know. What we do know is that there's some kind of parallel between the wellness check and the break room in that there's very strict rules on how you can say things.

[01:14:56] Like Irv is not allowed to express even a sort of a facial expression in reply to certain information about his Audi. Everything is very controlled and Miss Casey is the controller in that case. And the same with Milchek is the controller in the break room.

[01:15:18] So I don't really know who she is outside of the wellness center or the wellness check room or whatever. But she has to have some wider personality, doesn't she? I don't know. I mean that's what makes her so mysterious, right?

[01:15:37] And what makes it even more mysterious when we realize that that's his wife. I mean that was such an insane reveal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because she's a character that you just kind of assume for so much of the show is just a little...

[01:15:56] She's a character, another glimpse into the weirdness that is Luma. She's wallpaper and she serves a function and yet she is the primary motivation for Mark's character. Right. Like she's the... Exactly.