Agatha All Along – S01E07 – Death's Hand in Mine (MCUniverse)

[00:00:25] Please just tell me how to control what's happening. Your task is not to control, but to see. I am the Queen of Cups. Now you see.

[00:00:40] Hi, I'm Alicia Brenner and I'm here with Jean to make sure you did see all the important details in this incredible episode of Agatha All Along.

[00:00:48] We're here to break down Episode 7, Deaths Hand in Mine, for you. First with a guess regular listens will know. Then Alicia and I will get into the recap with all the reveals and other details.

[00:01:00] We'll be launching right into spoilers to make sure you're caught up before listening on. And fair warning, we reserve the right to bring up anything else we might find relevant from either the MCU or Marvel Comics.

[00:01:11] We also want to hear and discuss your thoughts about the show and everything else. Please send your feedback to mcu at thelorehounds.com. You'll find that link in the show notes. Voicemails encouraged as well. We'll hear from some of you at the end of the episode.

[00:01:26] And our special guest for this opening part of the episode is, hello David, how are you?

[00:01:32] Hi, how are you guys doing?

[00:01:34] We're good, we're good.

[00:01:35] A quick voicemail was not sufficient for me this time.

[00:01:39] Oh, wow.

[00:01:40] That's okay.

[00:01:41] That's a compliment.

[00:01:42] That's a big compliment.

[00:01:44] Can I ask you first, both of you actually, do you have any background with tarot?

[00:01:50] David, let's start with you.

[00:01:53] I did dabble with it slightly when I was much, much younger.

[00:01:58] When I was interested in various spiritual things, you know, as a young man sort of questing and trying to find my place in the world and make my mark on it and have, you know, have it make a mark on me.

[00:02:12] You know, I was trying various philosophies and systems and exploring things.

[00:02:17] And certainly tarot came in and out.

[00:02:20] I got a little bit more into runestones, which are just like tarot, but they're, you know, a made up thing that somebody packaged in, you know, a bunch of stones with symbols on them and a book to interpret.

[00:02:32] And so I kind of got into that a little bit more than tarot.

[00:02:35] Tarot was pretty complex.

[00:02:36] Like you, I think, I remember like, wow, this is, I mean, the deck is huge.

[00:02:41] There's, you know, so many cards, a lot of interpretation stuff.

[00:02:44] And I think Lily says there's a lot of, or who is it?

[00:02:48] Or was it Teen who said that there's a lot of interpretation and art to tarot?

[00:02:53] Right.

[00:02:54] When he and Agatha were struggling, neither of them have that interpretation or art.

[00:02:59] Yeah.

[00:02:59] And I think I recall having a tarot deck and, or, you know, see other people and friends who had them and stuff.

[00:03:06] Just, it took a lot of work.

[00:03:08] You got to study.

[00:03:09] You actually had to do a lot.

[00:03:10] It wasn't just like reading your horoscope right quick.

[00:03:12] Right.

[00:03:13] Right.

[00:03:13] You know, I got more into palm reading by accident just because like I, at a Halloween party, I was asked to play a palm reader.

[00:03:21] So like, okay, well, I will learn some things.

[00:03:24] And then I found it really fascinating.

[00:03:26] But I know tarot is supposed to be, you know, well, it allows more nuance and variety.

[00:03:31] So it's, yeah.

[00:03:32] Yeah.

[00:03:33] Yeah.

[00:03:33] Definitely more.

[00:03:35] There's different readings you can do.

[00:03:36] Like the one that they had in the show versus like regular life readings or whatever.

[00:03:42] There's different questions and different patterns that you can lay out.

[00:03:45] But yeah, it's been so long and I never really went deep into it.

[00:03:49] So.

[00:03:49] Yeah.

[00:03:50] And what about you, Jean?

[00:03:51] Is this going to be the same answer as with the divorce?

[00:03:53] Same answer.

[00:03:54] I didn't tarot.

[00:03:55] I didn't tarot.

[00:03:56] But we did invoke, I have a lot of experience invoking the loi and the ancestors about our futures and things of that nature.

[00:04:05] So definitely seek guidance.

[00:04:07] But not the guidance with the tarot.

[00:04:09] We ain't tarot.

[00:04:10] I don't come from a taroting family.

[00:04:14] I wouldn't say my family tarot, but I was always like, I did always love to go to fortune tellers and not even just necessarily buying into it.

[00:04:22] Some, you know, sell it better than others.

[00:04:26] Some are, some you really feel have that intuition.

[00:04:29] And then other ones, you're like, you're bullshitting me.

[00:04:32] And yeah, I can see.

[00:04:35] My familiar hears us talking about stuff.

[00:04:38] Come, Gray Malkin.

[00:04:40] Yes.

[00:04:40] I don't know if you guys can hear her, but she's on my shoulder.

[00:04:42] She wants to go outside.

[00:04:43] That's why she's harassing me.

[00:04:46] Oh, she's like a hiking cat.

[00:04:48] Yeah.

[00:04:49] I've got her a little, we got a new little vest thing.

[00:04:51] She kept breaking out of her other harness.

[00:04:53] She'd figure out ways to wrap herself around stuff and then she could get out and then she'd go climb trees, get into all kinds of trouble.

[00:05:00] So, but yeah, we keep her on a lead in the yard because traffic, because other animals and stuff.

[00:05:07] Yeah.

[00:05:07] Trying to limit her death toll.

[00:05:09] Yes.

[00:05:10] Keep her.

[00:05:11] Yeah.

[00:05:11] Do not stray from the path.

[00:05:13] That's what Sharon will tell her.

[00:05:15] She's a prisoner of our love.

[00:05:16] She's a prisoner of our love.

[00:05:19] Yeah.

[00:05:20] So let's get into our hot takes about the episode itself, which is again called...

[00:05:25] I hold death's hand in my...

[00:05:30] Every time I hear this music, the chant, it just goes right in.

[00:05:36] It just hits me.

[00:05:36] Anyway, carry on.

[00:05:37] No, I mean the Lopez's are brilliant musician writers.

[00:05:42] But yeah, so or just the episode's actually just death's hand in mine.

[00:05:46] And the writers were Gia King and Cameron Squires.

[00:05:50] And Squires also was credited for episode three, the water trial.

[00:05:54] And the director was Jax Schaefer, the showrunner herself.

[00:05:59] So this is clearly an important episode to her.

[00:06:02] The episode title again comes from verse two.

[00:06:05] I'm so glad that we looked at verse two more closely a couple of weeks ago because it keeps

[00:06:09] coming up.

[00:06:10] So I'm wondering if like the next title could be Spirit as my guide to end that.

[00:06:17] Or a lot of people think that the final title will be Follow Me, My Friend to Glory at the

[00:06:21] end.

[00:06:22] But I could also see them reversing it.

[00:06:24] What do you think, Joe?

[00:06:25] I don't know.

[00:06:26] I don't know.

[00:06:27] I'm so like, I'm done with the predictions.

[00:06:34] That's my bread and butter.

[00:06:36] Yeah, man.

[00:06:37] I'm done with the predictions.

[00:06:38] You know, I was predicting left and right.

[00:06:42] And you know, now I'm just like, I'm sitting back because what happened in this episode,

[00:06:47] I did not see him.

[00:06:48] So yeah, I'm just gonna, I don't know.

[00:06:52] That's my answer.

[00:06:53] Okay.

[00:06:54] Okay.

[00:06:55] Um, David, do you have any title thoughts?

[00:06:58] And if not, then do you want to just tell us why you really wanted to come talk about

[00:07:03] this episode today?

[00:07:04] Yeah, no, no title thoughts.

[00:07:06] Uh, I'm, I think it just goes with so much else that they're doing in the show that the

[00:07:13] production folks, the writers, showrunners are all just being really smart about this

[00:07:20] show, about the script, even just the whole, I didn't realize you guys had to educate me

[00:07:24] the other day, but it was Agatha all along.

[00:07:27] And like, that was the whole marketing plan of it.

[00:07:30] Like, right.

[00:07:30] This is just so clever.

[00:07:32] And so you mean that they kept changing the titles?

[00:07:34] Yeah.

[00:07:35] Exactly.

[00:07:35] Yeah.

[00:07:36] Yeah.

[00:07:36] And, and, uh, so, you know, using the song lyrics as the titles and stuff, that's all

[00:07:41] just a par for the course with this group.

[00:07:44] So, well, apparently Jack Schaefer, the showrunner behind the scenes, she was watching people

[00:07:47] react to the titles and she's like, come on, people think Covenant of Chaos is a serious

[00:07:51] title.

[00:07:55] So, uh, yeah.

[00:07:58] So beyond just the simple, Oh, you know, this is good.

[00:08:02] The acting has been spot on.

[00:08:04] Uh, who's the actor who plays teen?

[00:08:07] Joe Locke.

[00:08:08] Joe Locke.

[00:08:09] Like in this episode, I was just really impressed.

[00:08:11] He, he's been, they, he, uh, they've been playing, he, okay.

[00:08:16] Uh, he's been playing so many different characters and switching it up.

[00:08:22] And then in his evolution, it's just really, really good.

[00:08:25] I'm just so glad to see this young actor stretching out and to be this young, uh, young in your

[00:08:33] career actor with some really amazing talents on the screen.

[00:08:36] I mean, how lucky for him.

[00:08:37] That's like, what, what a privilege for him to, to work with these, uh, you know, this,

[00:08:43] this whole cast anyway, all of that aside, I think the big thing that I wanted, what I

[00:08:50] was moved to come in and say was the Lily story in this episode was so moving.

[00:09:00] It was so soulful.

[00:09:02] It was so cathartic.

[00:09:04] It was, it was really hitting me in those Loki vibes, you know, uh, the end of, of season

[00:09:10] two of Loki and for a TV show, for a Marvel TV show to be pulling this off.

[00:09:16] Like, this is the kind of Marvel show that I didn't know that I wanted that I want now

[00:09:20] more of, right?

[00:09:21] Like I had no expectations for this title.

[00:09:24] I thought it was just going to be another sort of mid bottom tier thing.

[00:09:27] And this thing is really risen to the top every episode better and better.

[00:09:31] But anyway, back to, I'm going to ignore the, another thing and pretend that that applies

[00:09:38] to secret invasion, which is fair.

[00:09:40] Yeah.

[00:09:41] Yeah.

[00:09:41] I was there for a secret invasion.

[00:09:45] We should make t-shirts.

[00:09:48] That would be awesome.

[00:09:50] Anyway, the idea that there's a couple of different thoughts, but the main one I wanted

[00:09:57] to dig into was this idea of the, of one of my favorite topics, the heart in con, the human

[00:10:05] heart in conflict with itself.

[00:10:06] I haven't talked about that in a while being the sort of one and only, you know, true dramatic

[00:10:12] story.

[00:10:13] The, uh, of all the different permutations and variations that one could have.

[00:10:20] The thing with Lily in, with Lily's story, this episode was that she was in conflict with

[00:10:26] herself and struggling to figure out her path, her journey.

[00:10:35] And I think that watching what she went through really, uh, I want to say opened up something

[00:10:42] for me, but like had me sort of perceive this of this question of the human heart in conflict

[00:10:46] with itself.

[00:10:47] When you are in conflict and you are going through that conflict and you're struggling with it,

[00:10:54] what it makes available to you is, is to the, the act of becoming the, the, the space of

[00:11:01] potential.

[00:11:03] And so with Lily being engaged with her struggle and actively where she, she resigned herself

[00:11:11] for years and centuries, even to just like, eh, I I'm kind of given up here.

[00:11:17] And when she stopped giving up and she engaged with the conflict of her heart, it, you know,

[00:11:25] that opened up and revealed possibilities for her.

[00:11:32] And I just, I just thought the way that they handled her character, the way that they did

[00:11:39] time jumping, the comedy that they laced in there, the whole thing of like being in the

[00:11:45] different time jumps, it was so smartly written and it delivered such an amazing emotional punch

[00:11:56] for me at the end that, uh, I was just blown away.

[00:12:01] I didn't think that the show could do that.

[00:12:03] And it's not that I had doubts that it could do that, but I wasn't expecting it.

[00:12:08] And I think that was the other thing that I really was satisfied by this episode is because

[00:12:14] I, I just, it, the, the show keeps certain, it keeps exceeding my expectations of it.

[00:12:20] And then for it to deal with a character like Lilia.

[00:12:25] And again, we're not, notice we're not on Agatha, right?

[00:12:29] The last few episodes, we've really moved off of Agatha and we've been working for the

[00:12:33] rest of the coven.

[00:12:34] Because she's realizing it's not all about her.

[00:12:36] I wonder if they'll do a title change at the end.

[00:12:38] Anyway, that'd be fun.

[00:12:40] But this, the, the idea that, you know, this character comes to all her life, she's been

[00:12:47] struggling and then she's resigned herself.

[00:12:49] And then in this moment, she sees this pathway and this truth for herself, just so powerful.

[00:13:01] So I'm getting a little emotional here.

[00:13:04] Sorry.

[00:13:05] No, I got, I got really emotional, um, after watching the, the episode, especially just because

[00:13:10] like, you know, with, um, I called it magical dementia, you know, and you just, um, and there

[00:13:18] were a lot of things that called back to that, but what struck me the most was how she kept

[00:13:21] slipping back to this like happy moment in her life when she first started learning about

[00:13:27] her powers and being with her teacher.

[00:13:31] And, uh, these people are still alive.

[00:13:33] And it just reminds me of like, you know, watching my grandmother live to be a hundred,

[00:13:37] by the way.

[00:13:38] Um, but, um, but, but at the end I saw like that her, she just kept, it was almost like she

[00:13:46] just preferred to live in that moment in the past where her husband was alive.

[00:13:52] Her parents, her sister were alive, you know, and, uh, right.

[00:13:56] All those.

[00:13:57] And for, for this character who's.

[00:14:03] Reckoning, you know, I still hold out hope, keep hope alive that, you know, we'll do a

[00:14:07] Willy Wonka at the end, but that, you know, to, to, you know, make this choice to have your

[00:14:15] life mean something.

[00:14:18] Mm hmm.

[00:14:20] Yeah.

[00:14:21] And mean something for other people.

[00:14:24] Mm hmm.

[00:14:24] But also I think she realized that she was, uh, she was missing meaning herself and she

[00:14:32] found it in this journey with these women.

[00:14:35] And, you know, most of them have been around for quite some time and, um, have been kicked

[00:14:41] around in various ways.

[00:14:43] Yeah.

[00:14:44] And just wrecking on.

[00:14:45] I was like on the discord today, like bugging Marilyn, like you gotta watch the show.

[00:14:50] Yeah.

[00:14:51] She's worried.

[00:14:52] She's worried that there won't be enough, like natural, you know, natural cycle, which

[00:14:57] stuff, but I, and I, she really does spoiler avoid, uh, adverse.

[00:15:01] So I don't want to tell her she's going to hear this later, but I don't want to tell

[00:15:04] they're like, there's moon cycles that's, you know, it's all about the cycle of life in

[00:15:08] the end.

[00:15:09] It's, uh, it's about throwing off these caricatures that are thrust upon us.

[00:15:14] And then, you know, last.

[00:15:15] We hide behind also.

[00:15:17] Exactly.

[00:15:18] Yeah.

[00:15:18] Yeah.

[00:15:18] And these caricatures that we create, that we hide behind in the world.

[00:15:22] Mm hmm.

[00:15:23] Uh, I'm watching our nine year old sort of do this.

[00:15:26] She, I I'm watching her construct her facade for the world versus, you know, who, who she

[00:15:31] sort of is behind that.

[00:15:33] And it's a normal, natural thing that we do.

[00:15:36] It's, it's an important part of our psychology to be able to, you know, handle the, the, the

[00:15:41] winds and, and bumps, you know, the, uh, all the, all the difficulties of life.

[00:15:45] But the question is, is like, do you know that that's your facade or, or, you know, and

[00:15:49] do you know yourself beyond your facade?

[00:15:52] I think that's a, you know, interesting psychology, uh, uh, topics anyway.

[00:15:57] Um, this idea that she's then become one with herself, right?

[00:16:02] She's, she's, uh, uh, and it's not for her own selfish motives, but it's in, in service

[00:16:10] of other people.

[00:16:12] Mm hmm.

[00:16:14] And she's the three of cups.

[00:16:16] Yeah.

[00:16:17] And I, I was last week on my voicemail, I was like, Oh, is this a redemption arc for Agatha?

[00:16:23] And is this their coven?

[00:16:25] Well, something else that struck me last night when I watched the episode was they are a coven.

[00:16:31] Mm hmm.

[00:16:31] There is no arc, you know, in regards to that, they are already a coven.

[00:16:37] They're already sacrificing for each other.

[00:16:40] They're already supporting each other.

[00:16:41] They're already, you know, dealing with your fellow human beings is challenging sometimes.

[00:16:48] Right.

[00:16:48] And even if you're the tightest of friends, you may have struggles and things that you've

[00:16:52] got to go through.

[00:16:53] And that's what this coven is doing.

[00:16:55] I don't think there's, they're not going to become a coven at the end of it.

[00:16:58] They are a coven now.

[00:17:00] And, and we're seeing that, that, that power of many, uh, a storyline being, um, played out

[00:17:09] through all of this.

[00:17:11] And it's not like we need to get somewhere.

[00:17:14] We had to get somewhere in the first couple of episodes just to get on the road.

[00:17:17] But now once we're there, we're already there.

[00:17:19] And I think that's something that I'm starting to pick up is to remember, uh, well, I don't

[00:17:25] want to be cliche about the, oh, it's the journey, not the destination, but, um, there's some

[00:17:29] with the show saying, yeah, there's, there's glory at the end.

[00:17:33] Yeah.

[00:17:33] There is potential glory.

[00:17:35] And who knows there's, there's maybe some sort of other becoming at the, at the end of

[00:17:39] the road, just like we got low, no spoilers for Loki.

[00:17:42] Um, but, uh, that, that the, there is something there, but unless we're struggling, unless we're

[00:17:50] in conflict, unless we're examining our assumptions, unless we're grappling with the facades that

[00:17:56] we've created for the sake of the world to protect our inner selves, then we're not alive.

[00:18:02] And I think that's something that we saw with these women in their choices and in their lives

[00:18:07] that they all deadened themselves to the world because they had been buffeted so much and being

[00:18:13] alone and isolated, they didn't have access to their power, but together they have.

[00:18:20] Sorry.

[00:18:21] I'm like, I'm like, Ooh, I'm like really emotionally wound up.

[00:18:25] So I, I, my, my voice cracks when I get emotional.

[00:18:28] Um, but when they're able to be with each other, they have access to power.

[00:18:34] And I think that's an important human story.

[00:18:37] That's a really important human story that when we're isolated, we don't have the ability

[00:18:42] to affect the world, but when we come together, we can.

[00:18:47] Right.

[00:18:47] Right.

[00:18:49] And, uh, Jean, what, what about you?

[00:18:51] Is this your new favorite?

[00:18:52] Yes.

[00:18:55] I mean, quite, quite simply.

[00:18:58] Yes.

[00:18:58] This is my favorite episode.

[00:19:00] This might be where it peaks.

[00:19:01] Oh no, don't say that.

[00:19:03] Don't say that.

[00:19:04] I mean, not saying nothing against the last two, but this is just exceptional.

[00:19:08] But yeah, this is my favorite episode so far.

[00:19:10] Um, yeah, just a lot of what David said just now about the, just the emotional stakes that

[00:19:20] this show is, is, is giving us.

[00:19:23] Like I'm having a very hard time keeping hope alive.

[00:19:26] You know, I'm going to be very honest right now.

[00:19:28] You know, my hope is faltering.

[00:19:31] It hasn't faltered all the way.

[00:19:33] I'm still.

[00:19:34] I mean, just from a storytelling standpoint that we might not get a Willy Wonka ending.

[00:19:37] Yes.

[00:19:37] Yes.

[00:19:38] Okay.

[00:19:38] Because they are.

[00:19:39] Maybe at least Sharon.

[00:19:41] Because they're like, you know what?

[00:19:42] She didn't even know what she signed up for.

[00:19:44] I think it was Sharon all along.

[00:19:46] I'm just, you know, I'm very.

[00:19:47] Sharon is Mephisto.

[00:19:49] Oh no, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:19:51] That's not a joke about Sharon that way.

[00:19:53] Nah.

[00:19:54] I'm sorry.

[00:19:54] I'm sorry.

[00:19:55] I take it back.

[00:19:55] Come on.

[00:19:55] You know how I feel about Sharon.

[00:19:57] But yeah, just it, the emotional stakes are very high right now for in this show.

[00:20:04] And this episode, Lilia was just, you know, she just amazing acting.

[00:20:13] First of all, everything that was on screen was captivating and riveting.

[00:20:18] Like you couldn't really take your eyes off of what was going on.

[00:20:25] And it was just, the connection between her and Jen, when it just, you know, someone that you are not sure about, but have a good feeling about.

[00:20:43] Mm-hmm.

[00:20:44] Right?

[00:20:46] Like, this could be my, this could be my partner.

[00:20:49] This could be my guy.

[00:20:50] This could be my gal.

[00:20:51] This could be my, my, you know, ride or die.

[00:20:54] This is, that's how I felt watching the two of them.

[00:20:58] Right.

[00:20:58] Learn about each other.

[00:21:00] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:01] You know, they didn't know each other from, they weren't close.

[00:21:05] But on this journey, they're learning about each other, learning about how maybe we can be close.

[00:21:14] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:14] And that's a, you know, that's a really compelling story for me because it's, you know, friendships are like that.

[00:21:21] You know what I mean?

[00:21:22] You start off a little bit on, you know, not too firm footing.

[00:21:29] And then before you know it, you are on the road with that person.

[00:21:33] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:34] You are hand in hand with that person.

[00:21:36] You are battling the Salem Seven with that person.

[00:21:40] Yeah.

[00:21:40] You know what I mean?

[00:21:41] And-

[00:21:41] To be honest, some of my best friends now, it was not like that when we first met.

[00:21:45] So, yeah.

[00:21:46] You know, and you're journeying, you're taking this journey, this life journey with people, you know, that maybe it's just,

[00:21:58] Yeah, it's really, really great storytelling.

[00:22:01] Really great storytelling.

[00:22:02] So, yes, this is my favorite episode.

[00:22:05] Yes, it's super emotional.

[00:22:08] Yeah, and I can't wait to see more.

[00:22:11] Can't wait to see more.

[00:22:12] To add a little bit more, Jean, with the storytelling, it's, this is this, both Penguin and this are these amazing blends of prestige and pulp, right?

[00:22:27] These are, these are stories right out of the Marvel comic book universe, right?

[00:22:32] Of the multiverse of stories, both DC and Marvel.

[00:22:36] But yet the television shows, the acting and the writing are all hitting prestige notes.

[00:22:43] But yet we're, we're like, where's Mephisto?

[00:22:46] Where's, you know, where's Batman?

[00:22:48] You know, looking around the corner.

[00:22:49] And I think I would really love to, to see the evolution of this kind of storytelling to give us more of this prestige pulp, right?

[00:22:59] This, more of this really deep quality storytelling.

[00:23:04] So what is it, what makes a prestige show?

[00:23:06] Part of it for me is the quality.

[00:23:08] You know, how deep and how, how strong are they going on these, you know, core themes of, you know, struggling with your humanity and your heart in conflict with itself and all this kind of stuff.

[00:23:19] Versus, hey, let's, you know, let's fly around.

[00:23:21] Let's have some explosions.

[00:23:22] Let's have some adventure.

[00:23:23] And that's fun, right?

[00:23:24] That's sort of the two ends of the spectrum for me.

[00:23:28] And yeah, we, we've had mixtures before, but I don't know.

[00:23:31] There's something about both the Penguin and the show that are hitting a new note for me in, in what's possible in this kind of storytelling.

[00:23:39] And I think that's, that's a great point because that counters a lot of what people have to say about comic book stories.

[00:23:49] Right.

[00:23:50] Right.

[00:23:50] And we've had this conversation before.

[00:23:52] Or it's not, all comic books are not the same.

[00:23:58] Right.

[00:23:59] Or even, even with the superheroes, even with all the fantastic things that they can do, they have grounded stories that are told on page.

[00:24:09] Right.

[00:24:09] So it's great to see, as you point out, like this type of story, opening up the possibilities, both Penguin and Agatha, opening up the possibilities of what we can hopefully see on screen.

[00:24:27] And so, yeah, kudos and just great, great stuff by the, the entire, the cast of showrunners.

[00:24:34] Yeah.

[00:24:34] Just really, really sticking.

[00:24:37] Hopefully they stick the landing, they land the plane the way we all want them to.

[00:24:42] Yeah.

[00:24:42] But up right now, I mean, you're just a hater if you tell, if you're telling me that.

[00:24:48] I mean, if you're telling me anything negative right now about this show, I'm looking at you sideways.

[00:24:54] Right.

[00:24:55] True.

[00:24:57] I mean, so I really like, we're going to talk a lot about the emotional elements as we go through this episode.

[00:25:03] But one thing I want to shout out is that I like how it was, I don't know if either of you have read the book, The Time Traveler's Wife is incredible.

[00:25:11] The movie was decent and the TV show, I couldn't make it through the first episode, but I know that it has its lovers.

[00:25:17] So maybe I should have given it more of a try.

[00:25:19] But anyway, that has a similar structure.

[00:25:22] And I love that structure of this time slipping and living your life out of order.

[00:25:26] And so to understand, and also my favorite films about dementia are the ones that give you the vision, the view through the eyes of the person experiencing that.

[00:25:41] And we got that with Lilia today.

[00:25:44] How confusing is it to be ripped around through time?

[00:25:49] And, you know, you lose track in the middle of a sentence, but it's still in there.

[00:25:54] It's just being spit out somewhere else, you know?

[00:25:56] And yeah.

[00:25:58] And it's super interesting that we have two characters on two different shows from two different companies who are actually dealing with, you know, we, I'm not going to say Lilia's dealing with dementia, but what she's experiencing.

[00:26:16] Right.

[00:26:16] Yeah.

[00:26:16] Yeah.

[00:26:17] And what it, what it echoes or parallels.

[00:26:19] And we have Oswald's mom.

[00:26:21] Right.

[00:26:22] Well, I mean, I, yeah, with Lilia, it's obviously different, but it does feel to me like it's a, it's, it's a metaphor for that.

[00:26:29] And also I was thinking about, so I talked about last week with, with Billy, I called it a changeling story, but I thought about it more.

[00:26:36] And I was like, he's 13, he's going through this bar mitzvah.

[00:26:39] Isn't this, isn't puberty a changeling story from the perspective of every parent, you know?

[00:26:46] And I love that this show, or, you know, we talked about with Nicole about the curse in episode four and how it's literally sitting on your shoulders.

[00:26:54] And I love how this show does things like that.

[00:26:57] Like it takes these, these ideas that everyone, you know, not everyone, a lot of people are dealing with.

[00:27:03] Like we, we were talking about it in our discord and there's a lot of people who connected with it on the dementia angle because they've seen it happen.

[00:27:11] You know, they, they've been through it with people they love.

[00:27:13] Um, and, and this show makes it, it illustrates it.

[00:27:19] So it's easier to identify and, and to think about with distancing yourself in a more comfortable way, but also undeniably it hits hard.

[00:27:30] It's interesting.

[00:27:31] I hadn't thought about the, the dimension, the dimension, this part of the storyline in its, the dimension of it relating to dementia.

[00:27:42] In that this, in, in some ways you could watch the show.

[00:27:46] And I don't know if they did this intentionally or not, but if you're watching the show, you could feel what it's like to be that person who's waking up from that moment going, whoa, what happened?

[00:27:54] Where have I been?

[00:27:55] And having no memory, the, the, the memory sort of severance, right?

[00:27:59] You know, the, the memories locked off from each other.

[00:28:01] That's really interesting perspective.

[00:28:03] Yeah.

[00:28:03] I recommend the, uh, the film, the father with, um, oh shoot, what's his face?

[00:28:09] Who's in everything?

[00:28:14] Um, Anthony Hopkins.

[00:28:19] He won an Oscar for it.

[00:28:20] Uh, oh, he's, he won the Oscar for that instead of Chadwick Boseman getting it for black Panther anyway, but it was, he was really good.

[00:28:28] He was really good.

[00:28:29] Yeah.

[00:28:29] Um, well, the other thing I was going to add about her journey, the whole season.

[00:28:34] in, we've been like, Oh, what's up with Lillia's thing? Is she talking to ghosts? Like, what

[00:28:39] is she bumping into other people? Is she slipping around in time? And how great was it to make

[00:28:46] it not a superficial thing, but to make that her, her, her, like in the moment of conversation,

[00:28:54] Oh, you know, like she reacts like a ghost brush fire or something to make it so profound

[00:29:00] and deeply intertwined with the story. And that's another thing that I really appreciate

[00:29:05] about the show and these writers is that they're really crafting some wonderful meta narratives

[00:29:14] where they're, they're laying out some, some mysteries. Oh, what's the deal with Billy?

[00:29:18] Who is he? And what's the deal with the sigil? And what's the deal with Lillia, you know,

[00:29:21] jumping around and what's the deal with the song, everything that they're putting in,

[00:29:25] they're not putting in for mystery box sake, but they have thought very carefully about

[00:29:32] what and why this is important and what is, and why is it important to these characters and

[00:29:37] how is it going to affect the story? It is a, an exquisite level of thought and detail that

[00:29:45] they're putting into the crafting of the larger, wider story beyond the episode to episode, you

[00:29:52] know, character A walked into room B kind of stuff. Yeah. I see in your notes, um, two Queens

[00:29:59] falling this year and I know who else you mean, we're talking about Queen Rhaenys. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:07] Cause there was both that, that falling in, in house of the dragon, we have that camera following them

[00:30:12] on their descent. And I was just immediately struck by that scene as well. And, you know, just I

[00:30:18] reflecting on the, on the bigger picture of television this year, there's so many powerful

[00:30:25] stories, women's stories this year in television and so much witchiness, like the amount of

[00:30:31] witchiness this year has been phenomenal and it's been great. And I really love to see all of these

[00:30:38] new stories and characters that, that, that shows are starting to, uh, to explore. So yeah, it really

[00:30:46] struck me watching her fall. Like it was so powerful. Yeah. Okay. Did you have any other

[00:30:52] thoughts you wanted to throw out while you're here with us? No, I just, I think the last little

[00:30:56] thing was, um, I don't know how to square the circle of, of, you know, time and Loki and, you

[00:31:03] know, how Lily tripping through time and that kind of stuff. I couldn't help, but think about that show

[00:31:08] relative to this, uh, just the, the parallels that, um, both plot lines are, are giving us.

[00:31:17] I don't know that they're directly related. I don't care if they are, I don't care if they're

[00:31:21] connected in an MCU way, but I just love, I don't know. It'll, it'll be fun sometime to go back and

[00:31:27] rewatch Loki and then rewatch Agatha and see what sort of emerges from these two, uh, two very

[00:31:34] profound TV shows. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, any more hot off the press thoughts, Sean?

[00:31:42] Nah, that's it. That's it. Good stuff. All right. Well, my cat's, uh, begging me to go out.

[00:31:50] You must, you must listen to your familiar. Um, thank you David for coming by. I mean,

[00:31:57] it's really, I love to know that this show moved you to come here, you know, makes, makes you emotional,

[00:32:05] makes you ponder humanity. Um, yeah. It makes you think about the possibilities. Yeah. Possibilities

[00:32:12] of what we can actually see. Yeah. Yeah. What we can have. So, well, thank you for allowing me to,

[00:32:19] to jump in here. I mean, I appreciate them making this space for me a little bit and, uh, I'm just glad

[00:32:25] you guys are covering it. I, every week I'm like, okay, I got to get the breakdown. What are the,

[00:32:29] where are the Easter eggs? What are the little things that I miss? Cause this show is packed.

[00:32:34] It's like, every scene is dense. I, even when they were like walking across the bridge,

[00:32:39] the, the moon map that was on the, on the bridge or like, I didn't recognize all of the different

[00:32:44] witches in their, in their costumes. I think I do now, but I was like, oh my God, I was like

[00:32:49] freaking out when the game on. I was totally thinking of you, Alicia. I was like, oh,

[00:32:54] like, you know, cause you're going to do wicked later this year, right? Oh yeah, absolutely.

[00:32:58] I mean, they were setting, they were setting up wicked. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Oh yeah,

[00:33:01] definitely. Yeah. I'm like listeners at home. If you are joining Agatha all along, let me tell you

[00:33:07] about a little book turned musical turned film called wicked.

[00:33:11] I'm going to enjoy as well.

[00:33:13] While in that costume. That was hilarious.

[00:33:16] Yeah. It was based on her. Don't you know?

[00:33:21] See, there you go. Good, good that we have a podcast to help us draw all these threads out.

[00:33:25] Anyway, thanks. I really appreciate you guys letting me pop on real quick. Talk to you soon.

[00:33:29] All right. Peace.

[00:33:36] Okay. Now that it's just us nerds, we got to talk about that Rio reveal. Obviously, you know,

[00:33:42] this is Lily's episodes. We want to like give her the focus she deserves in our recap. So we've got

[00:33:47] to discuss what went down with Rio. Big reveal. Yeah. How are you feeling?

[00:33:53] I didn't see it coming because I stayed away from.

[00:33:56] Certain Funko pop. Yes. I stayed away from all of the leaks. I stayed away from all of that stuff.

[00:34:03] So I didn't see it coming. And I have to admit, I kind of like it.

[00:34:08] Mm-hmm. No, it's brilliant. Yeah. I kind of like it. So with her being deaf is just,

[00:34:17] or playing the character of deaf is just really, yeah, I think she's-

[00:34:22] Perfect. Yeah. It's a great casting.

[00:34:24] She says like, she's like, this is my peak role. Like I've been working my life toward playing this role.

[00:34:29] It's a great casting. Really great casting. And I hope we get to see more of the character going forward.

[00:34:38] Yeah. I mean, should be right.

[00:34:40] They have to, they have to include, they have to include it.

[00:34:45] Yeah. So in episode four, at the beginning, I talked about there being a leak that was out there that I know a bunch of listeners are like, yeah, duh.

[00:34:53] Other content creators have been talking about it ever since the leak. But I also know we have a bunch of people in our community,

[00:34:59] including John and a bunch of other people who have been avoiding these leaks.

[00:35:05] So, you know, I was really biting my tongue on it because I really feel like they were leading us there anyway.

[00:35:14] But yeah, but then, you know, I, once they said it out loud, I was like, well, I see the clues,

[00:35:20] but I feel like I'm spoiling something if I say it before they do.

[00:35:24] I can't speculate. I'm not really free to speculate in that.

[00:35:26] Like in hindsight, I can see it. In the moment I did it, but in hindsight, I can see it.

[00:35:33] Yeah.

[00:35:33] You know, everything about her, you know, taking bodies is just like, okay, who, who in the Marvel universe does that?

[00:35:44] You know what I mean?

[00:35:44] Right.

[00:35:45] So I'm thinking about it and I'm like, oh, it was right there in front of me all the time.

[00:35:50] Right. I mean, yeah. So it's been, they've been doing a good job with it.

[00:35:56] So I've been trying to like subtly point out clues, but now that we know what we know, it's, we're saying this out loud.

[00:36:02] Let's review the clues that we've gotten going through.

[00:36:06] So we had, first of all, she'd said in episode one, she wanted Agatha horizontal in a grave.

[00:36:13] Do you think that's so they can be together?

[00:36:20] No, because unless the rules change, because in the comics, it doesn't living or dead doesn't stop death from embracing it.

[00:36:32] I wonder if it's changing the rules. I don't know, but we know it now makes sense.

[00:36:36] Why in episode one, they said she can't kill Agatha.

[00:36:41] Although yeah. Why can't she kill Agatha? Is there a deal there?

[00:36:44] Or is Agatha block somehow?

[00:36:45] And we also know why if Agatha takes her powers, Agatha will die.

[00:36:50] Well, yeah, she will become death.

[00:36:53] And yeah, Rio carries a dagger and a dagger is often a symbol for the folklore figure of death.

[00:37:01] And of course, we've gotten these song lyrics.

[00:37:04] We've got.

[00:37:11] Obviously that was the title of this episode, but then we also got in the other version.

[00:37:16] And dance with you.

[00:37:22] It's right there. It's all right there.

[00:37:23] It's right there.

[00:37:26] But the biggest thing was in episode three.

[00:37:28] So episode three came out before the leak.

[00:37:30] And I wasn't part of that episode.

[00:37:34] You and David broke it down.

[00:37:35] Yeah.

[00:37:35] Yeah.

[00:37:36] But yeah, it was in the notes.

[00:37:38] I noticed, like I clocked as they did it.

[00:37:41] We saw the figure of Lady Death standing behind Lillia's maestra.

[00:37:47] And yeah, when Lillia was having her elsewife revenge hallucinations.

[00:37:51] And Jean, I know you mentioned the comics character at the time, but now that we know for sure this is death,

[00:37:56] do you want to talk a bit more about who death is in Marvel Comics?

[00:37:59] Death is a cosmic force in Marvel Comics, eternally there.

[00:38:08] So there's a physical embodiment of the concept of death in Marvel Comics, most often associated with Thanos.

[00:38:21] Thanos is obsessed with death, the embodiment.

[00:38:27] He believes that death is his partner, his, I guess you would say, the love of his life.

[00:38:36] And he does everything that Thanos does in Marvel Comics.

[00:38:42] For the most, I would say, 98% of things he does is to impress Lady Death.

[00:38:51] So she will become, she will allow him to become her consort.

[00:38:59] Yeah.

[00:39:00] So.

[00:39:00] All that killing half the galaxy.

[00:39:03] Yeah.

[00:39:03] Everything in the, if you, if we've, we've watched Avengers in the comics, the snap, when he, you know, did away with half the universe in the comic books, he did that to impress death.

[00:39:18] Mm-hmm.

[00:39:19] Right.

[00:39:19] To say, look what I did for you.

[00:39:23] It was, yeah, kind of sick, but yeah.

[00:39:29] So very, you know, it's, the character is interspersed throughout many, many comic books, throughout many, many storylines.

[00:39:38] But mainly the focus has been on Thanos and death and this, you know, type of dance that they do throughout the decades.

[00:39:49] Yeah.

[00:39:50] I just want to point out two quick things.

[00:39:52] One is that there is also a romantic tie with Deadpool.

[00:39:55] And I'm like Deadpool, Jennifer Kale, death, like you've got, but I don't think that MCU Deadpool, that's going to happen because especially after the semi-fridging in the second movie there.

[00:40:07] And now this whole third movie about them getting back to him, getting it back together with his wife.

[00:40:13] Yeah.

[00:40:14] I don't think they're going to do that here.

[00:40:15] And I'm glad.

[00:40:16] Please don't.

[00:40:17] I just want to point out that death is not necessarily gendered or even human in appearance, though usually death appears in the Marvel comics as a humanized woman.

[00:40:27] As a skull.

[00:40:28] Yeah.

[00:40:28] As a woman with, you know.

[00:40:30] A skull face.

[00:40:31] Yeah, skull face.

[00:40:32] But sometimes a human face.

[00:40:33] Draped in some sort of robe.

[00:40:36] Yeah.

[00:40:37] I mean, she can, she, they can change their appearance.

[00:40:40] Yeah.

[00:40:41] Um, so yeah, but most often you see it like as a sexy lady with a skull face.

[00:40:48] Um, but yeah.

[00:40:49] And so this is why I mentioned recently that I read the Thanos rising mini series from 2013, because that's where you really see.

[00:40:59] It's an origin story of Thanos and death is heavily involved, although you don't know until the end that it is death really.

[00:41:05] Um, but there are some, so I, what I want to ask you, Jean, I'm going to present the evidence and ask your opinion.

[00:41:11] Are they slotting Agatha into the Thanos role with death in the sense that, well, first of all, we found out in this show that it wasn't that Agatha's mother necessarily tried to kill her at birth, though she did try to kill her later.

[00:41:25] Maybe they don't want to do baby killing and MCU.

[00:41:28] It's fine.

[00:41:29] Right.

[00:41:29] Um, but yeah, Thanos, his mother looked in his eyes and said, I see evil, kill him at birth and went mad.

[00:41:37] And then he, like Agatha, ended up killing his mother as predicted, you know, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way.

[00:41:45] Um, death made Thanos more murderous, as you talked about, it kind of unlocked something in him that was already there.

[00:41:53] And so I wonder if that's what we're seeing with Agatha or like, uh, the whole, we know that Agatha was at the Hindenburg crash at the Titanic sinking and in these disasters like that was Rio involved in that or influencing that in some way.

[00:42:12] Um, also this is very dark and I don't necessarily think they're going there in the MCU, but I'm wondering if there will be some reflection of this theme.

[00:42:21] In this series, death makes Thanos kill his offspring to impress her and then his planet.

[00:42:29] But I don't think Agatha is going to go nuclear on her planet, but there is some, we'll talk about it more, but there's some implication.

[00:42:37] Maybe Rio was involved.

[00:42:40] I mean, cause just because she literally is dead in Nicholas scratches death or yes.

[00:42:46] What happened to him?

[00:42:48] Um, and in the comics, we still have this question.

[00:42:50] We know the other people in the road, see Rio, but we don't know.

[00:42:54] For instance, a teen saw her before they went on the road.

[00:42:57] And that was a thing in the comics was that like, people thought Thanos was especially mad because they just, when he was talking to death, they saw him talking to just some like random woman's corpse.

[00:43:07] Hence the mad Titan name that he's given in, in the comics among many other reasons.

[00:43:14] But one of those reasons is that specific.

[00:43:17] Yeah.

[00:43:18] So what do you think about the Agatha is in Thanos's position theory?

[00:43:23] Um, I, I, when you said that I was leaning against it, but then when you said, you reminded me of her being at the site of these great tragedies.

[00:43:36] Um, it kind of slots, but I, I would need to see more because this seems like a very intimate, um, relationship between her and death, her and Rio.

[00:43:56] Whereas in the comics, death is very aloof towards Thanos.

[00:44:01] Yeah.

[00:44:02] This is not that.

[00:44:03] No, this is not that.

[00:44:04] Which is also why I bring up death is more passionate with, with Deadpool.

[00:44:08] So maybe it's a combination of that in a way.

[00:44:10] I don't even want, you know.

[00:44:12] Yeah.

[00:44:13] Deadpool get everybody.

[00:44:16] Uh, yeah.

[00:44:20] I'm not a Deadpool guy for people who don't know.

[00:44:23] But yeah.

[00:44:25] So I can, I don't know what, like I said, on the one hand I can see it, but then again, the relationship is very different between Thanos and death and Rio and Agatha.

[00:44:37] Mm-hmm.

[00:44:37] Yeah.

[00:44:38] Yeah.

[00:44:39] Yeah.

[00:44:39] Yes.

[00:44:40] But now this also makes sense with the, you know, uh, Rio Vidal is the river of life name, uh, talks about being the green witch, which, you know, we said it has the parallels with this green man concept from Anglo folklore, um, Anglic folklore, I guess.

[00:44:58] And then in episode four, so she crawls out of Sharon's grave when summoned.

[00:45:05] So it's sort of like resurrecting that body because she's death, I guess.

[00:45:08] Uh, she references in that episode coming up to join them when summoned and she wants Agatha to kill the other witches so that she can collect the bodies.

[00:45:18] Collect the bodies.

[00:45:18] Yes.

[00:45:19] Mm-hmm.

[00:45:20] And, uh, we also see in that episode, Agatha distracting Rio's interest in teen.

[00:45:25] And I'm wondering if this means that she senses like, oh no, this is someone who should have passed on and is still.

[00:45:32] Right.

[00:45:33] Right.

[00:45:33] And, and Agatha's like nothing to see over here.

[00:45:36] And she also said to when, when teen was injured, she said to Rio don't as in take teen.

[00:45:42] Don't take him.

[00:45:43] Exactly.

[00:45:43] Mm-hmm.

[00:45:44] Yeah.

[00:45:45] We also know that, um, Rio's feeling some guilt too.

[00:45:50] So just to call back to this conversation in episode four.

[00:45:54] I've got a scar.

[00:45:55] I doubt.

[00:45:56] Yes, I do.

[00:45:57] A long time ago, I loved someone and I had to do something that I did not want to do, even though it was my job and it hurt them.

[00:46:07] She is my scar.

[00:46:10] What do you think that means now?

[00:46:12] Yeah.

[00:46:12] Yeah.

[00:46:12] I mean, you know, the, the thing that I think about is what you said about Nicholas.

[00:46:18] Did, did she have a, did she have to take Nicholas, you know?

[00:46:22] Yeah.

[00:46:22] And the way that Agatha is employing her not to take teen, does she have to take Nicholas?

[00:46:28] Right.

[00:46:29] But it's her job.

[00:46:30] She's deaf.

[00:46:31] Mm-hmm.

[00:46:32] And I'm not saying that it means that she killed him.

[00:46:35] No, no, no, no.

[00:46:36] But she had to collect him and Agatha, I'm sure begged and pleaded and.

[00:46:41] Don't, don't let him go.

[00:46:43] Mm-hmm.

[00:46:44] Cannot.

[00:46:45] This is my job.

[00:46:46] This is what I do.

[00:46:47] This is what I do in the universe.

[00:46:50] Mm-hmm.

[00:46:51] Mm-hmm.

[00:46:52] And then, so we got more clues in episode five when they were doing the Ouija.

[00:46:57] The first, they asked who is here with us and it spelled out death.

[00:47:01] And then Rio laughs because she's like, yeah, I'm just got called out, but they don't even

[00:47:06] know it.

[00:47:06] They don't know.

[00:47:07] Except for Agatha.

[00:47:09] She also said she hates ghosts, which I guess makes sense because they're, they don't, they're

[00:47:14] not where they're supposed to be.

[00:47:15] Yep.

[00:47:16] And she also, I guess this probably explains.

[00:47:19] I wonder if we're going to get a flashback to actually see what happens there, but we

[00:47:23] know she's.

[00:47:24] Collect Alice.

[00:47:26] Yeah.

[00:47:26] We know she stayed behind with Alice's body.

[00:47:28] So I wonder if we're going to see like what that actually looks like her, like Sandman

[00:47:33] style when death comes in and gives the talk and let's go to the next place.

[00:47:37] And yeah.

[00:47:39] Great season of Sandman, by the way.

[00:47:41] Yeah.

[00:47:42] Yeah.

[00:47:42] I'm looking forward to season two.

[00:47:44] Yeah.

[00:47:44] So am I.

[00:47:46] Um, I'm wondering if maybe we'll see Alice like reunite with her mom and get a happy ending

[00:47:51] for her in that way.

[00:47:54] Um, I still want her to come back because she should be able to live her life without a curse.

[00:48:00] Yeah.

[00:48:00] I want to say keep hope alive.

[00:48:02] Keep hope alive.

[00:48:03] Hmm.

[00:48:05] It's getting softer, quieter for me.

[00:48:11] Yeah.

[00:48:11] And then of course, yeah.

[00:48:13] Episode six, we, uh, we talked about those disasters that they found out with Agatha.

[00:48:17] So, and then episode seven is this one.

[00:48:20] Shall we get into episode seven?

[00:48:22] Yeah, let's do it.

[00:48:24] All right.

[00:48:24] Let's take a quick break.

[00:48:26] We'll be back.

[00:48:35] All right.

[00:48:36] So this was a timey whiny episode, but we're going to try to talk about events in a more

[00:48:41] ordered way to try to make sure everything's clear and how this all went down.

[00:48:45] So we get Agatha and Billy.

[00:48:47] Agatha and Billy continue on the road before coming across a castle.

[00:48:51] Upon entering, the two are garbed as the Wicked Witch of the West from The Wizard of Oz

[00:48:57] and Maleficent from Sleeping Beauty, respectively, and are presented with tarot cards.

[00:49:03] If they do not place the proper cards in the correct sequence, the swords hanging from the

[00:49:08] ceiling fall down swiftly and stabbily.

[00:49:14] So when they're walking down the road at first, we get a couple of references that people who

[00:49:20] didn't watch WandaVision might not get.

[00:49:22] She talks about, she says, uh, she calls herself your old babysitter and your mom's ex best friend,

[00:49:30] which are WandaVision references.

[00:49:32] But also I think comics references, right?

[00:49:34] Yes.

[00:49:35] Because Agatha is a very well-known babysitter of Waffle Comics.

[00:49:43] So yes, she's the go-to child.

[00:49:47] And she's also a best friend of me with the Scarlet Witch in the comics.

[00:49:50] With the Scarlet Witch in the comics.

[00:49:52] But also when she says to Billy, you'll get a nosebleed trying that hard to read my mind.

[00:49:57] He's like, I'm not.

[00:49:58] And she's like, oh, okay.

[00:50:00] But it's also, it calls back to in WandaVision when she was babysitting him and he said he kind

[00:50:08] of liked that he couldn't hear Agatha's thoughts because she was quiet, you know, made him feel

[00:50:14] calm to be around her.

[00:50:15] And then she kidnapped him and his brother in her basement to trap their mom.

[00:50:18] But that's a whole other story.

[00:50:19] But in that moment, he felt calm, not being able to hear her thoughts.

[00:50:23] And Wanda, by the way, couldn't read her mind either.

[00:50:25] So she's got some good mind blocking powers going on.

[00:50:30] Um, what do you think about the, so she called Wanda his mom and he said, she's not my mom.

[00:50:37] I have a mom because of course he does.

[00:50:39] I think if I am interpreting this correctly, he only remembers basically the last three years

[00:50:45] of his life, which was with Rebecca Kaplan as his mom.

[00:50:49] I don't know.

[00:50:50] I didn't, I didn't take that.

[00:50:52] No, I didn't.

[00:50:53] No, I didn't.

[00:50:54] I felt that was like, you know, the person who's been raising me for the last three years

[00:50:59] is my mom.

[00:51:00] Yeah.

[00:51:01] That's what I said.

[00:51:02] No, no.

[00:51:02] But not that he doesn't remember Wanda.

[00:51:05] Oh, my impression is that he doesn't really remember his life before, but I guess when

[00:51:10] he, when he, when Billy became William, the first thing he said was Tommy, he has, he

[00:51:21] remembers.

[00:51:22] But I don't know that that means he remembers saying Tommy, but I don't know that that means

[00:51:27] he necessarily, I think that that was just like carried over from the moment before his

[00:51:31] last thought in his previous body.

[00:51:34] But I, yeah, they have to maybe clarify.

[00:51:38] Yeah.

[00:51:39] And then, uh, Agatha tells Billy, like, just ask me your questions out loud.

[00:51:44] And so he's like, where's we are?

[00:51:45] And she's like next.

[00:51:46] And then, uh, the next question is, is Wanda Maximoff really dead?

[00:51:52] Yes.

[00:51:53] No, maybe.

[00:51:58] Is she playing or she doesn't know, or she's like, she's like, I have a gut feeling, but

[00:52:02] I don't think it'll stick.

[00:52:04] You know, with, with Agatha, it's very hard to tell when she's being sincere and when she's

[00:52:09] fucking with you.

[00:52:10] Um, I think in this moment for me, I felt like she wasn't sure, but would I be shocked to

[00:52:19] find out that she was just, you know, being mean?

[00:52:24] No.

[00:52:26] Well, I don't think that she was being mean.

[00:52:28] I think that she is a little bit confused about, you know, just because of the whole

[00:52:34] heck situation and everything.

[00:52:36] Like, he's like, did you see a body?

[00:52:37] And she's like, yes, I did.

[00:52:38] And he said, did anybody else see that body?

[00:52:41] And she's like, that's hard to say, you know?

[00:52:44] That's exactly why I say, I don't know if she's not that like in the moment, I feel

[00:52:49] like she didn't know.

[00:52:52] She actually doesn't know, but I wouldn't be shocked.

[00:52:55] Is what I'm saying.

[00:52:56] To find out that she knew all along.

[00:52:59] I mean, but I guess like, I mean, we have to know, we have to find out how she knew about

[00:53:04] the dark holds even being all destroyed.

[00:53:07] Um, I'll be, apparently it's common knowledge that Wanda's dead or dead or, you know, quote

[00:53:13] unquote, whatever.

[00:53:14] But as we know, death is literally a character in this show.

[00:53:18] So what does dead even mean in this context?

[00:53:23] Well, oh yeah.

[00:53:24] Yeah.

[00:53:24] And in any case, she, she gives the only retort that will ever be needed.

[00:53:29] And we will sound clip this forever.

[00:53:31] Hey, you want straight answers?

[00:53:33] Ask a straight lady.

[00:53:36] I just want to point out, she is canonically not a lesbian as according to, uh, according

[00:53:43] to Catherine Hahn, she is bi or pansexual.

[00:53:46] Okay.

[00:53:46] Okay.

[00:53:49] So they enter the castle and there's moons on the drawbridge and, um, they don't call

[00:53:55] it out this time, but if they called the water trial moon waxing, then this one must be the

[00:54:00] waning moon.

[00:54:01] And we know it's the air trial.

[00:54:03] And, um, we get Billy.

[00:54:05] He tries to do a tarot sequence for Agatha.

[00:54:09] Uh, it doesn't get very far.

[00:54:10] He draws the horse drawn carriage, he says, and she's like the chariot.

[00:54:16] That's so great.

[00:54:17] Like the, the divide between the generations is just so.

[00:54:23] Right.

[00:54:24] Well, they're just two people who do not know tarot, but she knows that she not knows it

[00:54:30] a little less.

[00:54:31] Does that make sense anyway?

[00:54:32] Yes.

[00:54:33] Um, but yeah, so the chariot is stands for willpower victory and he places it right in

[00:54:39] front of himself, but I think he might've been standing in the wrong place.

[00:54:43] So it's hard to say whether it's like upright or upside down.

[00:54:46] I don't know.

[00:54:47] But anyway, it seems to be in the place for what's missing willpower victory.

[00:54:51] So that actually makes sense.

[00:54:52] And then the second card we see him pull is a seven of swords, which means theft, betrayal,

[00:54:57] child deception and trickery or reversed imposter syndrome secrecy.

[00:55:02] And he says it's reversed.

[00:55:04] Uh, but it's hard to say where he places it, but it does seem like even these, these throwaway

[00:55:08] cards are relevant, even if the swords are still dropping on them.

[00:55:12] What did you think of the, of the setup with the swords and the tension of really good stuff?

[00:55:18] Really good stuff.

[00:55:19] Really well done.

[00:55:21] Um, you love a sort of Damocles type of situation.

[00:55:27] Yeah.

[00:55:28] You say the wrong answer and that's it.

[00:55:30] So I really appreciated that.

[00:55:32] I, I could live for that.

[00:55:34] I like that.

[00:55:34] I like that whole setup.

[00:55:35] The whole ceiling could fall down on you or impel you one at a time, which is really cool.

[00:55:42] Or all together as it keeps sinking as they go.

[00:55:44] Yeah.

[00:55:45] So then in desperation, Agatha tries to start reading Billy and it's, she just starts slapping

[00:55:50] cards on the table.

[00:55:52] So didn't see what the first one was.

[00:55:54] The second one is the hanged man, uh, which she puts to her right, which I guess means

[00:55:58] the path behind.

[00:55:59] And this means intuition, discernment, trials, sacrifice.

[00:56:02] This makes sense.

[00:56:03] Lessons learned behind.

[00:56:05] Um, it seems like she puts wheel of fortune to the left, which is life cycles, turning

[00:56:10] points as the path ahead.

[00:56:12] And then it looks like maybe like the two of staves or it's called wands at the bottom.

[00:56:17] Um, which is like courage, daring, future planning.

[00:56:20] And that would be what it's hard to tell where they're oriented.

[00:56:24] They, um, if anyone noticed more and wants to write in, please do.

[00:56:28] Uh, it's yeah.

[00:56:29] You can't really see the rest, but they are like all placed randomly.

[00:56:32] I cannot help with the tarot.

[00:56:35] Can't help you with this.

[00:56:37] You cannot help with the tarot.

[00:56:38] It's like, you want to help?

[00:56:40] Oh, no, I cannot.

[00:56:42] But neither can Agatha or Billy, which is a point.

[00:56:45] Exactly.

[00:56:45] I feel just like them.

[00:56:47] I was with them in that moment.

[00:56:49] But just, but the thing is, Agatha thinks the trials about getting the right cards in the

[00:56:54] right squares, like matching up puzzle pieces.

[00:56:57] Right.

[00:56:57] And so she's missing the point of tarot and they need Lillia to come in and school them

[00:57:02] in a little bit.

[00:57:04] Um, so did you recognize the witches that they were dressed as?

[00:57:08] Yeah.

[00:57:09] Yeah.

[00:57:10] Wizard of Oz immediately saw it.

[00:57:13] My listener immediately saw it.

[00:57:15] And when he says, you know, um, if the cheekbones fit, you know, it was like, oh, okay.

[00:57:23] So really good stuff.

[00:57:25] Yeah.

[00:57:25] So we hear from Agatha, the Wicked Witch of the West is based on her.

[00:57:29] And then she has Lillia as her counterpart as the only like quote unquote good witch in

[00:57:33] costume was Glinda.

[00:57:35] But it is interesting, you know, David brought up Wicked and Wicked is kind of a, um, an arc

[00:57:41] to make you feel more empathy for the Wicked Witch of the West.

[00:57:44] Yes.

[00:57:45] Yes.

[00:57:45] And then Maleficent obviously has Angelina Jolie playing her in a couple of movies that

[00:57:50] are also with that angle.

[00:57:53] So I wonder if they're saying something with that, but then.

[00:57:55] I think they are.

[00:57:56] I have to object on behalf of Jen that she's, she's the Wicked Queen from Snow White, but

[00:58:02] why she has to be the hag version.

[00:58:04] She doesn't even get to be the hot version.

[00:58:06] Yeah.

[00:58:06] That was whack.

[00:58:07] She would have looked so good as the hot version.

[00:58:11] I was like, why, why they got her looking busted?

[00:58:16] And she's like, let me, she's like, let's, what was it?

[00:58:20] Let's complain about cultural stereotyping later or whatever.

[00:58:24] Well, you know, it kind of makes sense because her whole thing was, was against that.

[00:58:29] Like we need her.

[00:58:31] She's, you know, when she's making people eat wax.

[00:58:35] Yeah.

[00:58:35] Right.

[00:58:35] Right.

[00:58:36] People eat wax.

[00:58:37] You're never going to forgive her for that.

[00:58:39] I respect it.

[00:58:40] It's not to forgive her.

[00:58:41] I respect the hustle.

[00:58:43] That's what I'm saying.

[00:58:44] You got people eating wax out here?

[00:58:46] Please.

[00:58:47] It's like selling water to a whale.

[00:58:51] Should we continue with the other side?

[00:58:55] All right.

[00:58:55] So we get to Jen, Lilia and Lilia's maestro.

[00:59:01] Flashbacks from Lilia's childhood lessons and divination reveal that she has been experiencing

[00:59:06] her life out of order, explaining her memory lapses.

[00:59:10] After falling through the mud, Lilia discovers that Rio is the personification of death.

[00:59:16] Something Agatha knew.

[00:59:18] Who forebodes that her time is coming?

[00:59:22] She awakens Jen and after evading the Salem Seven, they venture through the tunnels before

[00:59:28] reuniting with Agatha and Billy.

[00:59:31] So yeah, Rio shows up and says to Lilia, don't you recognize me, Lilia?

[00:59:36] Lilia.

[00:59:36] In the end, all roads lead to me.

[00:59:39] All roads lead to me.

[00:59:39] Which lines up with Lilia said in episode five, death comes for us all.

[00:59:44] Yeah.

[00:59:45] And we find out that that was from her teacher, her maestra, saying that to her as a youth.

[00:59:53] And yeah, she says to her maestra, when will it come for me?

[00:59:56] I was falling.

[00:59:57] And to Jen, the pieces are falling into place.

[01:00:01] So I don't know if there's any link between the fallings there.

[01:00:05] But also key in this scene, when they are like in this sort of nexus area before they

[01:00:12] choose a tunnel to go down, we can see tram stuff in another tunnel next to where they

[01:00:17] wake up.

[01:00:18] And Jen points out that that seems to be the way out.

[01:00:21] And that seems to be a callback to what Sharon said about how abandoned public transportation

[01:00:27] under Westview, which still doesn't make sense because it's way too small.

[01:00:30] Yeah.

[01:00:30] Yeah.

[01:00:30] But anyway.

[01:00:31] Yeah.

[01:00:32] Like what kind of, yeah.

[01:00:35] What is going on in Westview?

[01:00:37] Aside from the hex, like I want to know what's happening in Westview because something's

[01:00:42] like that now.

[01:00:44] Mm-hmm.

[01:00:45] Yeah.

[01:00:45] It does make me wonder if there is like some sort of nexus there.

[01:00:49] What if the nexus is not in Florida, but it's in New Jersey?

[01:00:52] Oh my God.

[01:00:54] There are a lot of swamps in Jersey.

[01:00:56] So yeah.

[01:00:57] Oh.

[01:00:58] Some swampland, right?

[01:00:59] There are marshes and all that.

[01:01:03] So Jen is like, hey, that tram, you know, abandoned tram station over there looks like

[01:01:09] it could be the way off the road.

[01:01:10] And Lily is like, I know I'm still needed and I hope you'll join me because you are my

[01:01:15] sister in the craft.

[01:01:17] That was so beautiful.

[01:01:18] Yeah.

[01:01:19] That was really beautiful.

[01:01:21] It was a really beautiful moment.

[01:01:23] Mm-hmm.

[01:01:25] We had the whole hex and beset situation in episode five where, you know, they split off into twos.

[01:01:33] Coven of two, as Agatha said.

[01:01:35] And it's interesting to see how we have seen these pairings consistent that like these are

[01:01:40] the pairings that have each other's back.

[01:01:41] Agatha and Rio, Billy and Alice and Jen and Lilia.

[01:01:47] Yeah.

[01:01:48] Yeah.

[01:01:49] Yeah.

[01:01:50] That's just a very...

[01:01:52] When she says that, you know, you are my sister in the craft.

[01:01:56] Mm-hmm.

[01:01:56] And the glances that they exchange, you know, and then she just walks off opposite the train.

[01:02:04] You know, just really, really good stuff.

[01:02:08] Yeah.

[01:02:08] Yeah.

[01:02:09] And then the Salem Seven show up and blow it.

[01:02:12] Yeah.

[01:02:13] Did you notice the way they were walking?

[01:02:15] I love that.

[01:02:17] Yeah.

[01:02:18] I love that.

[01:02:19] They're like bent over backwards as they're walking in a way.

[01:02:22] Yeah, almost voguing.

[01:02:23] Yeah.

[01:02:24] On a runway.

[01:02:25] I love it.

[01:02:26] With like their hands behind their back, but they're wearing these like puffy clothes and

[01:02:29] this eerie silhouette.

[01:02:31] Yeah.

[01:02:31] Really cool visuals.

[01:02:33] Yeah.

[01:02:34] Yeah.

[01:02:34] I mean, on the one hand, of course, like I would have loved if, you know, the Salem Seven,

[01:02:39] maybe they get their own spinoff prequel series, but they just made them so...

[01:02:45] In this case, like they have so much character depth for these other characters, they can just

[01:02:51] be really cool looking.

[01:02:53] Right.

[01:02:54] Right.

[01:02:55] Wow.

[01:02:56] But Lilia knows because she's slipping through time.

[01:02:58] We don't have to worry about them.

[01:03:00] Yeah.

[01:03:00] Yeah.

[01:03:01] And this is where we start to figure out that, you know, and we had inklings before, but

[01:03:07] it's confirmed that Lilia's got this time slipping thing going on, the kind of magical dementia,

[01:03:12] as I call it, that made me emotional.

[01:03:14] And she's sliding back to her happy, youthful moments in her early life.

[01:03:19] Specifically at this moment, the last moments of her life, she's sliding back to her first

[01:03:25] lesson with her maestra, with her teacher. And her teacher knows this about her and says,

[01:03:30] ah, I see you're visiting. And Lilia tells her it's been centuries. And she says, tell me about

[01:03:35] your life. Are you rooted in nature? Not especially. No. Are you nimble with your craft? If I was,

[01:03:41] I wouldn't be here. Have you a coven? A witch requires a coven. It didn't work out for me the

[01:03:47] first time. It's sure not going well now. It's better to be a hermit, to be a fraud.

[01:03:52] And her maestra calls her out for her fear. I feel like, I know there are a lot of people

[01:03:58] that can identify with this, you know, feeling like this, it didn't work out for me. It's better

[01:04:04] to just be alone. I don't know. Yeah. Any thoughts on that? No, I think it's, you know, it's amazing

[01:04:12] what a show that ostensibly does not deal with reality can be so real. Yeah.

[01:04:21] You know, and again, that's just kudos to the entire production that we have things going on

[01:04:31] here that, you know, mimic life, you know, mimic real life, what people go through, their feelings,

[01:04:40] their emotions, how they view the world, how they see themselves in conjunction with the world

[01:04:46] that they inhabit. So, you know, when she says this, you know, when she says, are you nimble with

[01:04:55] your craft? And Milio says, if I was, I wouldn't be here. That's like, yeah, you know, if I was doing

[01:05:03] what I wanted to be doing, would I be sitting here with you? Like, how many of us have thought that

[01:05:09] about someone asking us a question at some time in our lives? You know what I mean? Like,

[01:05:15] what are you asking me this question for? Obviously it's not going the way that I thought it was

[01:05:20] supposed to be going because I'm here. Right. And it's just really-

[01:05:25] But then you might realize like, you've gone back to that place of comfort for a good reason,

[01:05:28] you know? No, yeah, definitely. You see it play out, but in the moment, you know,

[01:05:36] watching the show is just like so many little things like that call to what people go through

[01:05:46] in life. And I just feel like it's really amazing work that's being done and it shouldn't be overlooked

[01:05:53] that these little, little things that they're putting into this really, you know, fantastical show

[01:06:01] hit hard the way that they're hitting. Yeah. Yeah. And we hear Lily's greatest frustration.

[01:06:08] She says,

[01:06:09] What am I missing?

[01:06:10] Exato. What are you missing? Why are you on this journey?

[01:06:14] I didn't want to come.

[01:06:16] Then why did you?

[01:06:17] To get my power back.

[01:06:19] Is it gone? Where did it go? This is not the true reason.

[01:06:23] I'm a forgotten woman.

[01:06:24] Then remember yourself.

[01:06:26] What's worth remembering? That you died? That I saw it coming? Our entire coven wiped out by a fever?

[01:06:33] I saw it. I told you, but it didn't change anything.

[01:06:37] That comes for us all.

[01:06:39] You say it like it's a comfort.

[01:06:41] It is what we all have in common.

[01:06:45] That hits hard.

[01:06:46] I am a forgotten woman. How many older women feel that way?

[01:06:50] Like, you know, and I'm putting myself in that category too. I'm not that old, but still, you know, you feel after you leave your 20s, you start to feel like, hmm. Yeah.

[01:07:02] She says that her coven died of a fever. I was supposed, it is true, the 16th century Sicily, there was plague there.

[01:07:10] But I was wondering if they shied away from the witch trials because we saw Lilia in episode four looking at those images from witch trials and crying.

[01:07:21] So I don't know if that was like a Disney, like, eh, let's just pull it back. How about just a little plague?

[01:07:28] But it doesn't really matter.

[01:07:30] And she says to her, she says, I told you and it didn't change anything.

[01:07:33] But Lilia is actually telling her now at her very first lesson.

[01:07:38] So it means when Lilia tells her later, she already knows.

[01:07:41] And she's like, you know, if death's going to come for me, death's going to come for me.

[01:07:46] Nothing I can do about it.

[01:07:48] Yeah.

[01:07:49] Nothing I can do about it.

[01:07:52] And then, yeah, so we get Lilia with Jen.

[01:07:56] She says, I was falling.

[01:07:57] And Jen's like, yeah, we both were.

[01:07:59] And Jen's, you know, she's frustrated with her on the one hand.

[01:08:02] She's like, you told me all this stuff yourself.

[01:08:04] You told me teen son of the Scarlet Witch, which I'm wondering if that's a bootstrap paradox,

[01:08:08] because how did she know teen was a son of the Scarlet Witch, except that she told Jen and Jen told her again.

[01:08:16] I didn't see anyone else tell them.

[01:08:20] But then, yeah, she told her the next trial is a tarot.

[01:08:24] And Jen's like, you told me like we had to go down this tunnel and look for shelves.

[01:08:28] We had like a heart to heart, actually.

[01:08:31] Like, ouch.

[01:08:32] But then she does say, you said this might happen.

[01:08:35] You're being extra wispy.

[01:08:39] And she also uses the word kooky.

[01:08:43] And then this is where we get confirmation of, you know, all these outbursts we've been tracking from Lilia all season.

[01:08:52] They pay off here.

[01:08:53] We see how they're strung together.

[01:08:54] We'll come back to the tarot stuff.

[01:08:56] But a lot of like the get off me and I hated this the first time is her cycling through this during like moments of trauma during this episode.

[01:09:07] We find out that Alice, Alice, don't try to save Agatha was indeed the same sentence that she was trying to say.

[01:09:16] But she slipped through time before she could finish her sentence.

[01:09:18] And the same with, you know, we kind of hated each other in the beginning.

[01:09:23] But now I love you guys.

[01:09:25] And I think this was like her revelation, even though, you know, it takes her a couple of times like it does with most people to really get there.

[01:09:35] To get it.

[01:09:36] Yeah.

[01:09:36] It's actually it's about the connections that she's made.

[01:09:40] Anything else.

[01:09:41] Yeah.

[01:09:43] And I just think, you know, we have and this is like something I think a lot of people who have had people they love who develop dementia.

[01:09:52] And, you know, there's this at the moment that Jennifer is most exasperated by Lilia is also when she finally understands her.

[01:10:03] You think I'm batty.

[01:10:04] Is that it?

[01:10:05] You look at me and you see some doddering old broad.

[01:10:08] Well, tell me what more I should see when I look at you.

[01:10:11] No, no, no.

[01:10:12] I mean it.

[01:10:13] Tell me.

[01:10:14] You mentioned something about gaps.

[01:10:17] That's just so beautiful.

[01:10:20] It's the most empathetic we've seen, Jen, be in this show.

[01:10:23] Absolutely.

[01:10:23] That's just so beautiful.

[01:10:25] It's just really well done, well acted and just really a beautiful sentiment to express to someone who you can visibly see is going through something.

[01:10:37] Mm-hmm.

[01:10:38] Right?

[01:10:39] And you can easily cut them down and make it worse.

[01:10:44] Mm-hmm.

[01:10:45] Don't.

[01:10:46] Right.

[01:10:49] And, yeah, she gives Lilia.

[01:10:51] You know, and also that's the other thing is when you give someone an opening to explain things, you end up learning from it.

[01:10:57] You end up learning someone else's experiences at the very least.

[01:11:00] And she says, you know, the flow of time is an illusion.

[01:11:03] Most people don't realize that.

[01:11:05] I've experienced my life out of sequence, especially as a child.

[01:11:08] And now, again, it's getting worse.

[01:11:10] I must be near the end.

[01:11:12] And she also says something interesting here.

[01:11:14] She says she's not sure she wants her full powers back.

[01:11:17] Why do you think she says that?

[01:11:19] Because then she'll see it.

[01:11:21] She'll understand exactly what's going to happen, when it's going to happen, that death comes for us all.

[01:11:55] Mm-hmm.

[01:12:00] And so it's almost like wish fulfillment from his perspective that she pops up as soon as he wishes for her.

[01:12:05] But also we know that, and I guess this is a sort of commentary in a way, we know that she and Jennifer, the side characters, the stereotypical side characters have been on their own journey out of view from the so-called protagonists.

[01:12:20] Yep.

[01:12:50] And if it's not even the way that he intends it to happen, then that's a level of magic that really is we haven't seen in the MCU yet.

[01:13:00] Mm-hmm.

[01:13:01] That's a level of power we haven't seen yet because it seems to be very much the focus that each of these characters are doing things independent from each other and doing things, you know, for their own story, for their own purpose.

[01:13:17] And not just for, you know, Billy's whims.

[01:13:21] Mm-hmm.

[01:13:22] So I'm not sure if it's still a manifestation of Billy's power.

[01:13:29] Hmm.

[01:13:30] I mean, I'm not saying that it's Billy's whims.

[01:13:33] I think my, when I did a rewatch, you know, I started the rewatch after the last episode and I finished it this week.

[01:13:40] And I was noticing that I think, I mean, I think Billy's the one who has the power to do that.

[01:13:46] We see it from, we saw it from Wanda and I think, you know, he is probably similar powers.

[01:13:51] That's how they presented it.

[01:13:52] But I think that everyone in the coven is contributing to it.

[01:13:57] Mm-hmm.

[01:13:58] Like everyone's adding to the rules.

[01:14:00] Everyone's adding their own personal reference points to the various trials and sites along the way.

[01:14:07] This is exciting.

[01:14:08] This is exciting.

[01:14:09] Yeah, because it's a coven true.

[01:14:12] Yeah.

[01:14:13] So now we're at the tarot trial.

[01:14:15] Knowing the trial is hers, Lilia places the cards in their proper order, saving them all.

[01:14:23] Mama Taro comes in and she's like, y'all, this is a safe passage spread.

[01:14:27] And here's a lesson.

[01:14:29] So the first card goes in the safe passage spread.

[01:14:32] First card goes in the center and that's the traveler, the querent or as, sorry, querent, or as Billy put it, the queer and ha ha ha.

[01:14:42] Which made me think of a queer tree.

[01:14:43] But anyway, sorry, that's a Tolkien thing.

[01:14:47] Funny who doesn't get it.

[01:14:50] But that's the person hoping to get the answers, the traveler on the road.

[01:14:54] The second card, which is the top from the dealer's perspective, is what's missing, the reason for your quest.

[01:15:01] The third card goes in the bottom right.

[01:15:03] It's the path behind the lessons learned.

[01:15:06] Fourth card, bottom left, the path ahead and the space for growth and discovery.

[01:15:10] The fifth card is on the right, the obstacle in your journey.

[01:15:14] The sixth card on the left, potential windfall and unexpected gain.

[01:15:19] And the seventh card in the center, what you must overcome to reach your destination.

[01:15:24] And so at first, Lilia's like, okay, I guess we're reading Billy.

[01:15:28] And she's like pressuring him to, it must be a question vital to the journey.

[01:15:33] And he shirks off all the people, Agatha especially, who's like, ask her when you get out of here.

[01:15:38] And he says, am I William or am I Billy?

[01:15:41] What do you think, Joe?

[01:15:43] Is he?

[01:15:44] I'm fairly in the camp that he's Billy.

[01:15:47] Hmm.

[01:15:48] I think he's both.

[01:15:50] I think he's both.

[01:15:51] I mean, it could be.

[01:15:52] It could be.

[01:15:53] You know, but I'm more of, I wouldn't be shocked.

[01:15:56] Again, this is another thing.

[01:15:57] I wouldn't be surprised at if there's some way that they're both, it's both personalities who are, who have merged into one.

[01:16:07] Right.

[01:16:08] But yeah, I think this is firmly Billy.

[01:16:13] Okay.

[01:16:14] Well, so we get, we don't get far in this.

[01:16:18] You think they're both?

[01:16:19] I think it's both.

[01:16:19] I think it's both.

[01:16:20] I think that it's both.

[01:16:21] And he doesn't remember either life, but he has both of the soul of Billy and like the physiological memory basis of William in him.

[01:16:33] And there's something, it's something new.

[01:16:36] Hmm.

[01:16:37] He's both and neither.

[01:16:38] Okay.

[01:16:40] But so Lily doesn't get far in her reading with, with Billy first.

[01:16:43] She lays down the card.

[01:16:45] The traveler is the magician, which makes sense.

[01:16:47] So he is saying he has talent to tap into.

[01:16:51] Um, the second card is what are you missing?

[01:16:54] The sun good for fortune, joy, reunion.

[01:16:57] Obviously he's looking for reunion with his brother, Tommy.

[01:17:00] And, um, then she's going for the third card.

[01:17:04] What's behind you?

[01:17:05] And the sword falls.

[01:17:06] And Agatha pulls Lilia out of the way because Lilia is time slipping while this happened.

[01:17:13] So then we get this past version of, um, who shows up and she's, she's all angry with Billy for the whole, like throwing her down the mud pit situation.

[01:17:23] And she says,

[01:17:24] Are you okay?

[01:17:26] Whoa!

[01:17:27] I thought we were cool!

[01:17:29] We are not cool, teenager!

[01:17:31] Damn, using his full name.

[01:17:33] Damn, using his full name.

[01:17:35] Same.

[01:17:36] Jennifer had some of the best lines this episode.

[01:17:39] I think she was the other MVP of this episode.

[01:17:42] That's great.

[01:17:44] Um, but then, yeah, so we've got psychic Billy.

[01:17:49] He's like reading Lilia's thoughts, defending himself.

[01:17:52] And she's like, remembers, oh, you're the one from the bar mitzvah.

[01:17:55] But she's also, she's skeptical.

[01:17:58] And she says,

[01:17:59] Aren't you furious?

[01:18:00] I mean, always, but collectively we've moved on.

[01:18:02] At your prompting, Dory.

[01:18:05] Back off, Agatha!

[01:18:06] She's having a day!

[01:18:09] So Agatha calls her Dory from Finding Nemo.

[01:18:11] But I love that Jen defends her again.

[01:18:13] Yes, yes, yes.

[01:18:14] Real growth here.

[01:18:16] Yeah.

[01:18:17] Coven of Two.

[01:18:18] Yeah.

[01:18:18] They're the hex and bism friends.

[01:18:21] Um, but then Lilia realizes, oh, she slips back to her other self, uh, who was actually

[01:18:28] in this moment.

[01:18:29] And it's like, oh, your path winds out of time.

[01:18:31] I am the traveler.

[01:18:34] I should be giving myself a reading.

[01:18:36] It's my trial.

[01:18:39] So then we get like all these cards that she's been spitting out throughout the show that

[01:18:44] there's also like in the promotional materials, they've been talking about these cards and

[01:18:48] showing pictures of them.

[01:18:49] Um, so by the way, I'll put a link in the show notes.

[01:18:53] Uh, and there's also a link in our notes, Sean, uh, that shows the cards from the Marvel

[01:19:00] promotional materials or from the show side by side with images from the show that like

[01:19:06] almost exactly ape them.

[01:19:08] Wow.

[01:19:09] That's very cool visually with what they did.

[01:19:12] Yeah.

[01:19:13] But so the cards to run through them again.

[01:19:16] And so the first is the travelers, Lilia, and she gets the queen of cups, which means

[01:19:20] compassion, emotional intelligence, and deep intuition.

[01:19:23] Uh, what's missing is the coven, uh, the three of pentacles collaboration, teamwork, and

[01:19:28] valuable work.

[01:19:29] And she says, collaboration, community, singular voices waiting to harmonize.

[01:19:35] I needed you, my coven, which is, yeah, we all need our coven, our tribe.

[01:19:39] We all need our people.

[01:19:40] Yeah.

[01:19:41] Mm-hmm.

[01:19:42] So what's behind you is Alice, the Knight of Wands, action, adventure, and enthusiasm.

[01:19:47] She says, full of fire, fights bravely.

[01:19:50] What lies ahead, interestingly, is Jennifer.

[01:19:54] High priestess.

[01:19:55] Mystery, intuition, the subconscious mind, hidden knowledge.

[01:19:59] Uh, Lilia says, immense spiritual power, unable or unwilling to use it.

[01:20:04] So this begs the question, do you think it's possible?

[01:20:08] Because Jennifer is like, how could that powerless white man, how could, how could he

[01:20:13] bind me?

[01:20:14] Do you think it's possible that she bound herself in that moment to protect herself?

[01:20:18] I do.

[01:20:20] I do.

[01:20:21] I didn't think of it before, but yeah.

[01:20:24] Yeah.

[01:20:25] I just keep thinking about what your niece said about, and about, and this is true, like

[01:20:30] in the history of witchcraft, a lot of midwives were accused of being witches by doctors who

[01:20:38] said, don't step on our toes.

[01:20:40] You're an inconvenient woman.

[01:20:41] And in this case, specifically African-American, specifically, you know, black women, you know,

[01:20:50] cut off from their power.

[01:20:51] So yeah.

[01:20:52] Hmm.

[01:20:53] I think you might be right.

[01:20:55] Like it becomes a mental block.

[01:20:57] Yeah.

[01:20:57] Yeah.

[01:20:58] To protect yourself.

[01:21:00] Mm-hmm.

[01:21:01] In a way.

[01:21:02] And then when she needed to come through with 14, when he was going to do, he had that bad

[01:21:08] wound.

[01:21:09] Right.

[01:21:10] Lillia said to her, look at what you did.

[01:21:11] She healed him.

[01:21:13] Yeah.

[01:21:14] And Lillia said, own this moment.

[01:21:16] Be proud of yourself.

[01:21:18] They've always had each other's back, those two in some way.

[01:21:20] Um, but her obstacle is Agatha, the three of swords, which stands for heartbreak, sorrow,

[01:21:27] grief, or a need to heal and or gain wisdom.

[01:21:30] The windfall is Billy, the tower reversed.

[01:21:34] So avoiding or delaying a change that is crucial and necessary or a refusal to commit to difficult

[01:21:40] truths, but also miraculous transformation.

[01:21:43] Hence Billy, and not William.

[01:21:47] Hmm.

[01:21:48] Hmm.

[01:21:48] Hmm.

[01:21:49] Or some people are saying Billium.

[01:21:51] I'm not buying into the Billium business.

[01:21:55] Billium is real.

[01:21:56] Hashtag Billium is real.

[01:21:57] I'm not buying the Billium.

[01:21:58] I'm not buying into it.

[01:21:59] I'm a Billium truther.

[01:22:01] Yes, you are.

[01:22:04] And then she says, so the destination is Rio, the death card.

[01:22:10] And death in tarot is not necessarily a bad thing.

[01:22:15] It means transformation.

[01:22:16] It means endings and new beginnings, which is, you know, the whole, the green, the green,

[01:22:21] which, um, this cycle of life starting a new chapter.

[01:22:27] And, um, so I guess this is officially the coven.

[01:22:30] The coven.

[01:22:30] So I'm sorry, Sharon.

[01:22:32] You're always being an honorary member.

[01:22:37] Oh, gosh.

[01:22:39] Good old Sharon.

[01:22:40] Oh.

[01:22:41] What a lovely lady.

[01:22:43] I hope she just gets another chance at life.

[01:22:45] She didn't deserve to get taken out.

[01:22:48] No.

[01:22:48] These witches.

[01:22:49] No, no.

[01:22:51] Good old Sharon.

[01:22:53] But Lily has done the thing and the ceiling stops and retracts.

[01:22:57] And this is when Lily fills the rest of them in on.

[01:23:02] Rio.

[01:23:03] She's death.

[01:23:05] She's what?

[01:23:06] The original green witch.

[01:23:09] Is it true?

[01:23:10] What can I say?

[01:23:12] I like the bad boys.

[01:23:15] Because again, death isn't necessarily.

[01:23:19] But yeah.

[01:23:20] What do you, what do you think about, um, Agatha keeping it that secret from the rest of the coven?

[01:23:27] It makes sense.

[01:23:28] You know, I wouldn't.

[01:23:30] I mean, they already think she eats babies.

[01:23:34] She sacrificed her son.

[01:23:36] And now she's going to be like, yeah, you know, I had a thing with death.

[01:23:40] And here she is right here next to you.

[01:23:42] You know what I mean?

[01:23:43] Like, death is my bae.

[01:23:45] No, no.

[01:23:46] I get why, you know, the subterfuge.

[01:23:50] I understand it completely.

[01:23:53] And it's not like Agatha intended for her to join this party in the first place.

[01:23:57] She did try to avoid it by involving poor Sharon, you know?

[01:24:00] Right.

[01:24:01] No.

[01:24:02] All right.

[01:24:03] Well, we have one last section.

[01:24:05] Let's take a quick break and talk about Lily's parting gifts.

[01:24:10] Be right back.

[01:24:11] So we're back with parting gifts.

[01:24:28] Everyone flees through the exit.

[01:24:31] But Lilia chooses to stay behind as the Salem Seven approach.

[01:24:35] She flips one of the cards, causing the entire room to flip, impaling most of the seven and presumably herself.

[01:24:43] In the last scene, young Lilia gleefully attends her first lesson in divination.

[01:24:50] Yeah.

[01:24:51] Yeah.

[01:24:51] So she gives each of them a gift as they walk out, you know, and she decides to stay behind.

[01:24:59] Yeah.

[01:24:59] And it's hard with the way they're dressed and everything and all the constant references.

[01:25:03] It's hard not to think about The Wizard of Oz.

[01:25:07] So first she says to Agatha, when she calls you a coward, hit the deck, which reminded me of, you know, giving the lion courage in The Wizard of Oz.

[01:25:18] What do you think that's going to mean when she calls you a coward, hit the deck?

[01:25:21] I don't know.

[01:25:22] I told you earlier, I'm done with the predictions.

[01:25:25] That's it.

[01:25:26] All right.

[01:25:27] I think we're talking about a fight for sure.

[01:25:30] Oh yeah.

[01:25:30] There's definitely some hands are going to be thrown, but we'll see.

[01:25:33] Yeah.

[01:25:34] You know, we'll see.

[01:25:35] We'll see where it ends.

[01:25:36] Right.

[01:25:36] Exactly.

[01:25:38] And then she gives Billy back his book, which is kind of like giving the scarecrow his brain, even though, you know, it turns out the scarecrow was always smart.

[01:25:46] That's the whole point.

[01:25:48] But then it makes me, my question is, how did she find that book?

[01:25:52] Like just lying on the ground in this random tunnel?

[01:25:55] Are they just walking back and forth in the same metro tunnels outside the illusion?

[01:26:00] I don't know.

[01:26:02] Why is that book just laying?

[01:26:03] It's like when Agatha's brooch was just randomly on the floor and then we later saw that bit, Billy dropped it.

[01:26:09] Something is working to aid our protagonists, to help them along.

[01:26:16] We need answers.

[01:26:17] Hmm.

[01:26:19] Or yeah.

[01:26:20] Something or someone.

[01:26:21] Walking back and forth.

[01:26:22] Oh yeah.

[01:26:23] Maybe it's them.

[01:26:24] I like to think there's something or someone working to help them along the path.

[01:26:31] And so I think with the Wizard of Oz analogy, then that means obviously the heart went to Jennifer because, you know, we've seen a lot of snark from Jennifer this season.

[01:26:40] And this is the episode where she really, you know, opened her heart more.

[01:26:46] And Lily encourages her saying, you're the path ahead, Jennifer.

[01:26:51] And I wonder what that means.

[01:26:52] I'm very intrigued by that.

[01:26:54] Mm-hmm.

[01:26:55] I mean, because her best friend's man thing.

[01:26:59] No, she's her own person, but also.

[01:27:01] But also.

[01:27:06] Oh, man.

[01:27:08] But then we get this emotional declaration.

[01:27:12] I loved being a witch.

[01:27:15] Like, I'm sorry.

[01:27:16] If your heart didn't melt and break at that moment.

[01:27:19] Yeah.

[01:27:20] Then where is your heart?

[01:27:22] And then, yeah, Lilia stays behind to sacrifice herself to take out the Salem Seven or at least a bunch of them.

[01:27:29] But she says to them, you might not know this about the road.

[01:27:32] And which is also.

[01:27:34] So listen to this and think about, like, is she just making up the rules as she goes along, just like all of them have been?

[01:27:41] Like, it seems like as they go through, they declare rules and they become true.

[01:27:46] Because they've declared them to be such.

[01:27:48] And she says, you may not know this about the road, but when you successfully complete a trial like I just did, it's not a good idea to overstay your welcome.

[01:27:56] Usually something terrible happens.

[01:27:59] Disaster.

[01:28:00] Destruction.

[01:28:00] Sudden upheaval.

[01:28:02] Like the tower.

[01:28:03] Upright.

[01:28:04] And so she takes Billy's tower card and flips it so it's no longer reversed.

[01:28:08] It's upright.

[01:28:09] And the entire tower that they're in flips upside down.

[01:28:12] And Lilia holds onto the table as the Salem Seven fall.

[01:28:19] And Lilia eventually lets go and lets herself fall too.

[01:28:22] But first of all, Salem Seven, people have been pointing out we only see five bodies land.

[01:28:31] So does that mean there are three that transform?

[01:28:35] Mm-hmm.

[01:28:36] Right.

[01:28:37] So does that mean we haven't seen the end of Crow, Owl, and Cicadas, which is Vertigo?

[01:28:43] I like to think so.

[01:28:45] I would like some more, yeah.

[01:28:47] I would like to think so.

[01:28:48] Yeah.

[01:28:49] I think, though, that means R.I.P., Coyote, Fox, Rat, and Snake.

[01:28:53] Yes.

[01:28:54] They can't fly.

[01:28:56] Mm-mm.

[01:28:56] They can't fly.

[01:28:57] They can't fly.

[01:28:59] Oh, I missed one.

[01:29:00] Because there's one more.

[01:29:02] Oh, wait.

[01:29:03] Yeah, there's seven of them.

[01:29:05] So one of the flying ones must have fallen.

[01:29:08] But I'm guessing it's not Vertigo, because they named Vertigo.

[01:29:11] So Vertigo must still be alive.

[01:29:13] So either Crow or Owl survived.

[01:29:16] And the other one, I guess, didn't change in time.

[01:29:19] Huh.

[01:29:21] Let's see.

[01:29:23] Let's see.

[01:29:24] I'm of the opinion the flying ones all were saved.

[01:29:28] Okay.

[01:29:29] They all survived.

[01:29:29] Well, when we saw five fall, and there's-

[01:29:32] Seven.

[01:29:33] Oh, yeah.

[01:29:34] Yeah.

[01:29:34] Yeah.

[01:29:35] All right.

[01:29:35] You're making sense.

[01:29:36] You're making sense.

[01:29:37] Yes.

[01:29:39] I guess we'll see.

[01:29:40] But I would love to see more of these characters regardless.

[01:29:42] Like I said, a prequel show, too.

[01:29:44] But then, yeah.

[01:29:45] So in the opening, we saw Lilia falling a long time.

[01:29:49] And the shot doesn't show her hitting the swords.

[01:29:52] It doesn't.

[01:29:52] Do you think that's just out of respect?

[01:29:54] Or do you think there's something more to that?

[01:29:56] I mean, you know where I'm going to go.

[01:29:58] I'm not even going to say it.

[01:29:59] Keep hope alive?

[01:30:01] I don't know.

[01:30:02] I mean.

[01:30:05] But here's my question.

[01:30:06] If Lilia isn't dead after this-

[01:30:11] Right.

[01:30:12] Does that undermine the emotional impact of this episode?

[01:30:16] For me, no.

[01:30:18] No?

[01:30:19] For me, no.

[01:30:20] Okay.

[01:30:21] Hmm.

[01:30:22] Because, you know, her death is not what is the emotional sacrifice for me.

[01:30:29] Her willingness is the sacrifice for me.

[01:30:35] Like, that's where it hit.

[01:30:37] It didn't hit when she fell.

[01:30:41] Because as soon as she closed the door to the Iron Maiden, I knew.

[01:30:47] Like, I knew this was, you know, her saying goodbye and her saying, you know, I'm going

[01:30:54] to make sure that you guys keep along the path.

[01:30:59] In that moment, her sacrifice was real for me.

[01:31:04] It didn't take her falling to the swords for that to hit the way that it hit.

[01:31:10] It hit me in the moment she closed the Iron Maiden.

[01:31:12] Hmm.

[01:31:14] Yeah.

[01:31:15] So it won't change how I feel about what she's done for them if at the end of the series,

[01:31:26] it wasn't her end.

[01:31:28] And in a way, we get to see it's really not her end because we get to go back to her beginning.

[01:31:35] Yeah.

[01:31:36] Yeah, we see the hourglass reset and when we hear her maestress say-

[01:31:43] Let us begin.

[01:31:46] So, which, you know, and we talked about this whole cyclical nature of life and death and

[01:31:51] yeah, that makes sense for all that.

[01:31:53] I do tend to think she's on to the next chapter, which I do think she's dead.

[01:32:00] But I think, you know, we're seeing more and more of the afterlife in the MCU.

[01:32:04] Yes.

[01:32:05] Being dead doesn't mean she's off.

[01:32:07] You're gone.

[01:32:07] The chessboard.

[01:32:08] Yeah.

[01:32:08] Right.

[01:32:09] Right.

[01:32:10] I would like to see what happens, what her next chapter is after this.

[01:32:15] Keep the character, but she doesn't have to be on this plane of existence.

[01:32:19] Right.

[01:32:20] Right.

[01:32:21] And then we get, if I could put time in a bottle.

[01:32:26] Yeah, how great was that?

[01:32:27] First thing that I'd like to do.

[01:32:29] Yeah.

[01:32:29] Jim Croce.

[01:32:30] I love that song.

[01:32:32] Definitely.

[01:32:32] An all-time song.

[01:32:33] And just a great, great song for this episode to end on.

[01:32:38] Right.

[01:32:38] Mm-hmm.

[01:32:39] Just, yeah.

[01:32:41] Yeah.

[01:32:43] Yeah.

[01:32:44] All right.

[01:32:44] So going through the character clues and revelations, aren't so many this week, but anything you want to add about Lilia?

[01:32:52] No, just remarkable.

[01:32:56] Yeah, just really great character development.

[01:33:00] She was a very, very fun character to get to know.

[01:33:07] Mm-hmm.

[01:33:08] And again, I don't feel like her death was ending.

[01:33:17] Mm-hmm.

[01:33:17] The ending of her story.

[01:33:19] It's a new beginning.

[01:33:20] Yeah.

[01:33:22] It's a wheel of time.

[01:33:23] Yeah.

[01:33:24] Yeah, I think so.

[01:33:25] I think this episode was about tying up her storyline for this show, as we discussed.

[01:33:30] But I don't think that that means the end.

[01:33:32] Because we still have to see her with the Book of Cagliostro.

[01:33:35] But that's a comic book thing that's associated with it.

[01:33:38] It's another book of magic people's.

[01:33:41] Yeah.

[01:33:43] But yeah, she was the keeper of it in the comics.

[01:33:46] And we've seen that book also, by the way, in the What If with Dr. Strange.

[01:33:51] Strange, yes.

[01:33:52] Where he was getting all the demons and eating them.

[01:33:57] Oh, it's a good show.

[01:33:58] But what I like about this show with her is she's a quite minor character in the comics.

[01:34:06] And they took her.

[01:34:07] And sure, they changed a lot.

[01:34:09] She's Sicilian instead of, I don't know, what generic.

[01:34:13] Maybe they once said Serbian, mostly like Eastern European gypsy.

[01:34:16] So I'm glad they updated her.

[01:34:18] They made her specific.

[01:34:20] And they changed her into something much more meaningful, more memorable character.

[01:34:24] Absolutely.

[01:34:25] So I just absolutely love what they did with her.

[01:34:28] Now, the other character we've talked about a lot already.

[01:34:32] Any other thoughts about Rio Vidal?

[01:34:36] I am anxiously awaiting her reappearance.

[01:34:41] And I'm hoping she's in full death regalia.

[01:34:47] Yeah.

[01:34:49] I'm really hoping we get a flashback to her taking Alice somewhere.

[01:34:54] And just to see that whole death process in the MCU, how that works.

[01:34:58] And to see Alice again.

[01:35:00] She deserves happiness.

[01:35:04] Jen, I said this was also a phenomenal episode for her.

[01:35:07] She got some of the funniest lines, but also the other greatest source of heart.

[01:35:12] Her and Lillia together.

[01:35:14] I don't know.

[01:35:14] Yeah.

[01:35:15] The way forward other than to man thing.

[01:35:17] I don't know.

[01:35:19] I won't ask you to make more permissions.

[01:35:26] So team, we found out he's mad at mommy.

[01:35:28] I guess this is setting up.

[01:35:30] I mean, definitely these two characters are going to have to meet in the future.

[01:35:33] Of course.

[01:35:34] I hope they have Jack Schaefer furiously scribbling away at a film.

[01:35:39] It better be a film.

[01:35:40] Yes, please.

[01:35:42] Do you think, so he asked when it was like, what's the question that you most need answered?

[01:35:49] I thought he was going to ask about Tommy, but he ended up asking about himself.

[01:35:52] Do you think that the questions about himself are going to be the big payoff at the end rather than his brother?

[01:35:58] Which do you think are the bigger questions for him?

[01:36:00] I think the bigger payoff is Tommy.

[01:36:04] I want Tommy.

[01:36:05] I'm like, you tease Tommy.

[01:36:06] You better deliver.

[01:36:07] The bigger payoff is Tommy for me.

[01:36:10] Hmm.

[01:36:11] I already know who he is.

[01:36:13] Who is he?

[01:36:14] He's Billy.

[01:36:16] I know who Tina is.

[01:36:18] I already know.

[01:36:18] Oh, yeah.

[01:36:19] I know who Tina is.

[01:36:21] I know.

[01:36:21] He's Billy.

[01:36:23] I refuse.

[01:36:25] He's Billy.

[01:36:25] I'm.

[01:36:27] I'm.

[01:36:27] This is a hard no.

[01:36:30] No.

[01:36:32] I think it's a more interesting story if it's about, you know, the metaphysical and the physical joining together and how that creates a new.

[01:36:43] Synergy.

[01:36:45] No.

[01:36:47] Billy.

[01:36:48] This is where I'm at.

[01:36:49] Okay.

[01:36:50] Yeah.

[01:36:50] Okay.

[01:36:51] I'm knowing your no.

[01:36:52] Okay.

[01:36:52] Okay.

[01:36:55] So what about Agatha?

[01:36:56] Is there redemption for her at the end of the road?

[01:36:58] And what does that look like?

[01:37:00] Oh, that's, that's a great question.

[01:37:02] That's a great question.

[01:37:04] I want to say that.

[01:37:06] Yes.

[01:37:09] That's what I want to say.

[01:37:10] But deep down inside, I'm saying no.

[01:37:14] You don't think there's a redemption?

[01:37:16] How do you think this, this show ends for her?

[01:37:18] No predictions.

[01:37:19] Hmm.

[01:37:20] I think, you know, I, I don't see her making a heroic turn.

[01:37:26] I think they've been setting it up.

[01:37:28] They have, which is why I don't see it happening in the way that we might expect it to happen.

[01:37:35] I think, well, I think that we need to get questions about the whole Nicholas situation.

[01:37:40] And so that's got to be coming next week because I've been teasing that the entire show.

[01:37:45] Right.

[01:37:45] Um, and I, my prediction is that she is going to end up sacrificing herself for Billy.

[01:37:53] It could be just because Billy kind of reminds her of having her own son.

[01:37:57] And yeah, that's my prediction right now.

[01:38:00] Okay.

[01:38:01] Okay.

[01:38:03] But then again, that's the question is like, is that actually Agatha's happy ending?

[01:38:08] If, uh, she gets to be dead with her.

[01:38:11] With death.

[01:38:12] Mm-hmm.

[01:38:13] She gets to be dead with death.

[01:38:15] Dead with death.

[01:38:18] Yeah.

[01:38:19] So we, we've got the two part finale on Halloween.

[01:38:22] Uh, well, it'll be on the night of the 30th in the U S and or the Americas and, um, Halloween for the rest of the world.

[01:38:30] And obviously aside from featuring man thing, which I'm going to be honest, I don't think I'm getting man thing.

[01:38:36] I don't think it's going to happen.

[01:38:37] All right.

[01:38:37] I didn't want to say it.

[01:38:38] I didn't want to say it.

[01:38:39] But I'm erring on the side that would not get him that thing.

[01:38:46] No, I'm, I'm thinking not.

[01:38:48] But the thing is that they, they introduced him to the MCU.

[01:38:53] Yeah.

[01:38:53] And now they brought in this specific character that's so tied to him in the comics.

[01:38:57] Like, come on.

[01:38:59] Right.

[01:38:59] Anyway, next one.

[01:39:00] Next one.

[01:39:01] Cause hopefully this means Jen actually makes it to the end.

[01:39:05] Yes.

[01:39:06] Um, are we expecting anyone else?

[01:39:09] We talked about Tommy.

[01:39:11] I'm saying no to Mephisto.

[01:39:13] I agree with you.

[01:39:14] I say no.

[01:39:16] I, I could see, uh, white vision.

[01:39:20] Yeah.

[01:39:21] You think I'm saying no, I could see something of that about that because this story is about family as well.

[01:39:29] Um, and Billy searched for his family, for himself as well as for his family.

[01:39:35] Um, so yeah, I could see that.

[01:39:40] Hmm.

[01:39:42] I, I think it's more likely we'll hear, cause that's the thing.

[01:39:46] They barely talked about vision in this show.

[01:39:49] Yeah.

[01:39:50] Other than Agatha, like being kind of mean about, you know, her flesh and wires and he's been dissected.

[01:39:58] I think that we'll learn something about Wanda.

[01:40:03] I don't think we're going to see her, but we might like get a teaser that she's out there somewhere or, you know?

[01:40:11] Yeah.

[01:40:11] No.

[01:40:13] I'm wondering if we still haven't gotten our earth trial and they started by saying that earth was the most important.

[01:40:18] So are we getting that next week?

[01:40:20] And is Rio participating?

[01:40:22] Because like, is like, is Rio still in the coven?

[01:40:24] What's going on with Rio?

[01:40:26] And I don't think Rio's in the coven.

[01:40:30] But she's supposed to be the green witch.

[01:40:33] Yeah.

[01:40:33] The original green witch.

[01:40:35] Mm-hmm.

[01:40:36] The green witch.

[01:40:39] Otherwise the coven's down to three and who's doing the earth trial?

[01:40:42] Cause we've got, Jen was water.

[01:40:44] Agatha was spirit.

[01:40:46] Billy.

[01:40:47] Is Billy?

[01:40:48] Billy's not, Billy's not a green witch.

[01:40:50] He's a moon witch.

[01:40:51] No.

[01:40:51] But there was somebody who was buried.

[01:40:54] Sharon.

[01:40:58] Oh, I would love it.

[01:40:59] I would love it.

[01:41:00] The body was buried.

[01:41:02] Buried in the earth.

[01:41:03] Buried in the ground.

[01:41:05] They covered her up with earth.

[01:41:09] They didn't just leave her on top of the earth.

[01:41:11] They put her in the earth.

[01:41:13] I'm just saying.

[01:41:15] Do you think anyone else is going to die?

[01:41:19] No.

[01:41:20] No.

[01:41:22] Okay.

[01:41:23] I am.

[01:41:25] I'm still thinking.

[01:41:28] I'm still thinking Agatha might sacrifice herself for either.

[01:41:32] Billiam or the rest of the coven.

[01:41:34] And I'm thinking.

[01:41:35] I don't know.

[01:41:36] On the one hand.

[01:41:37] Like if I think about like the Thanos rising story, for example,

[01:41:40] I'm like, death is toxic.

[01:41:41] Like stay away from that.

[01:41:43] But on the other hand,

[01:41:44] you seeing the way Agatha has been looking at,

[01:41:47] at Rio and stuff, you know,

[01:41:48] and also this is the,

[01:41:51] a line from,

[01:41:52] uh,

[01:41:53] we played this earlier,

[01:41:54] but this is a line from one of the ballads.

[01:41:59] And that was actually Agatha singing.

[01:42:05] So I mean,

[01:42:07] maybe she's just like,

[01:42:08] you know what?

[01:42:08] I'm just hopelessly in love with the bad boy.

[01:42:12] And we get to be together.

[01:42:13] And maybe that allows.

[01:42:16] Billiam to live.

[01:42:17] Or something.

[01:42:20] Hmm.

[01:42:21] Uh,

[01:42:22] any final thoughts?

[01:42:23] Nah.

[01:42:24] Let's get to the feedback.

[01:42:26] All right.

[01:42:27] Well,

[01:42:27] first we have a voicemail from Brian,

[01:42:30] 80 63.

[01:42:31] So let's hear what he has to say.

[01:42:32] Hello,

[01:42:33] Alicia and Sean.

[01:42:34] Great coverage as always.

[01:42:36] I don't know much about Marvel lore.

[01:42:38] So I learn a lot from each podcast.

[01:42:41] I'm enjoying the show.

[01:42:43] It's fun characters,

[01:42:44] interesting story,

[01:42:45] and good mysteries.

[01:42:46] I had to leave this voicemail because of two words,

[01:42:50] Abigail Adams.

[01:42:51] I had no idea that she lives in the world of witchcraft.

[01:42:55] I'm not a huge expert on Abigail.

[01:42:57] I know her more as a first lady,

[01:42:59] but I also don't recall any connection between her and witchcraft.

[01:43:05] She was the daughter of a Reverend in Massachusetts.

[01:43:08] She and her mother and sisters would help parishioners,

[01:43:12] widows,

[01:43:12] and others who needed extra help.

[01:43:14] Took a lot of time during her day,

[01:43:16] but her family was a big part of the community.

[01:43:19] The only thing I could think of is that Abigail is an icon of female empowerment.

[01:43:25] Many might know that she wrote her husband,

[01:43:28] John,

[01:43:28] during the American revolution to remind him not to forget the women.

[01:43:33] I learned that she had a will,

[01:43:36] which was rare back then.

[01:43:38] It was not a legal instrument since all property and money held by women went directly to their husbands.

[01:43:46] This was a unique and another example of Abigail's awesomeness.

[01:43:51] When she died in 1818,

[01:43:53] Abigail had her own money and some property,

[01:43:56] which she dispersed among family and friends.

[01:44:00] Anyway,

[01:44:01] keep up the excellent work and keep on trucking.

[01:44:05] Brian,

[01:44:06] 80,

[01:44:06] 63.

[01:44:09] That was great.

[01:44:10] Do you,

[01:44:10] I mean,

[01:44:10] so,

[01:44:11] um,

[01:44:12] so for anyone who forgets the last episode,

[01:44:14] uh,

[01:44:15] we mentioned Abigail Adams.

[01:44:17] They,

[01:44:17] we saw it in an Easter egg,

[01:44:19] um,

[01:44:20] on screen.

[01:44:20] And we were looking at like,

[01:44:22] John,

[01:44:22] you were saying about how Abigail,

[01:44:24] like just keeps popping up randomly.

[01:44:27] And,

[01:44:28] no Abigail.

[01:44:29] So Abigail Adams in comics did,

[01:44:31] there are a lot of comics that posit her as a supernatural being,

[01:44:36] as a witch,

[01:44:37] as a vampire,

[01:44:38] um,

[01:44:40] otherworldly.

[01:44:41] So I was not surprised to see her being with all of these other magical beings,

[01:44:48] um,

[01:44:50] themes.

[01:44:50] Alleged witches.

[01:44:52] Yeah.

[01:44:52] And alleged witches.

[01:44:53] Exactly.

[01:44:54] Yeah.

[01:44:55] And,

[01:44:56] you know,

[01:44:56] what Brian said about her being a well-known,

[01:45:00] uh,

[01:45:00] leading feminist,

[01:45:02] you know,

[01:45:02] that's definitely exactly the sort of profile to be accused for witchcraft.

[01:45:07] Like what Jennifer went through with,

[01:45:09] you know,

[01:45:10] just being,

[01:45:11] uh,

[01:45:11] a powerful woman when she's supposed to be quiet.

[01:45:15] Yes.

[01:45:16] Yes.

[01:45:18] Yeah.

[01:45:18] We're going to keep on trucking.

[01:45:19] Definitely.

[01:45:20] Yeah.

[01:45:21] Thank you for that.

[01:45:22] Do you want to read M.

[01:45:24] Wills?

[01:45:25] Yeah,

[01:45:25] sure.

[01:45:26] Um,

[01:45:26] this is after episode four,

[01:45:29] strong supporter of your views and,

[01:45:30] predictions in the last episode breakdown,

[01:45:33] my theory that takes them a bit further.

[01:45:37] Rio death is going to be upset about Billy walking around in William's body.

[01:45:42] Agatha will prove she can be good.

[01:45:45] And stands up to death,

[01:45:47] ultimately reuniting in death with her son.

[01:45:51] In order to protect Billy and maybe Tommy,

[01:45:53] we'll see how Agatha got the dark hole.

[01:45:56] And it won't be perfect.

[01:45:57] She has a reason for guilt,

[01:45:59] but not as bad as Jen says.

[01:46:01] I think this is more about redemption than power for Agatha.

[01:46:05] I think Agatha always knew Billy was a Nick.

[01:46:09] Intellectually,

[01:46:09] she was never fooled,

[01:46:10] but emotionally she's getting confused.

[01:46:12] And if Rio comes to take Billy,

[01:46:14] she'll be taking another son figure from Agatha,

[01:46:18] which might be staying her hand for now.

[01:46:23] Yeah.

[01:46:23] Yeah.

[01:46:24] So I didn't think about the fact that if Agatha dies,

[01:46:27] she'll also be reunited with her son.

[01:46:29] Yeah.

[01:46:29] Yeah.

[01:46:30] That's a good point.

[01:46:31] More,

[01:46:31] more,

[01:46:32] and it points in the direction that you were going.

[01:46:35] Maybe it's a happy ending for her.

[01:46:37] Maybe.

[01:46:38] Maybe she's reunited with,

[01:46:41] with the whole coven dies.

[01:46:42] No.

[01:46:43] Oh,

[01:46:44] gosh.

[01:46:45] At least let Jen live.

[01:46:46] Come on.

[01:46:48] And,

[01:46:48] and Billy,

[01:46:49] obviously,

[01:46:49] because he's got to go start the young Avengers.

[01:46:52] exactly.

[01:46:53] With Papa.

[01:46:54] All right.

[01:46:55] So Rebecca,

[01:46:56] AKA reading the pattern says,

[01:46:58] hi,

[01:46:58] Laura Hounds.

[01:46:59] I've been loving your Agatha episodes and I'm more invested in this show

[01:47:01] than I ever have been for anything in the MCU thus far.

[01:47:05] So here are some thoughts in the latest episode.

[01:47:07] I've not read any comics.

[01:47:09] So this is just based on what the show has given us.

[01:47:12] After episode six,

[01:47:13] I was pretty well sold in the theory that we're not really on the witch's

[01:47:16] road.

[01:47:17] And this is actually a reality that Billy is creating.

[01:47:20] I think the subway car in this episode is additional evidence to support

[01:47:24] that the characters might actually just be underground.

[01:47:27] Though I think only Agatha is aware if this is the case.

[01:47:30] On the other hand,

[01:47:32] Lily is trial real or not felt so extremely real and meaningful that I want

[01:47:37] it to still feel that way.

[01:47:39] Even if we find out that this is Billy's reality.

[01:47:42] I've also thought a lot about,

[01:47:44] I'll see you at the end,

[01:47:45] especially for Alice.

[01:47:46] Like you have said,

[01:47:47] that felt like a promise that we would see Alice again.

[01:47:51] Lily's sacrifice again felt so real and meaningful that I almost want that to

[01:47:55] stick,

[01:47:56] even though I don't want to lose her.

[01:47:58] And I'm not sure I know how it would work for Alice to actually still be

[01:48:02] alive.

[01:48:02] But Lilia isn't.

[01:48:04] I did see a theory that Lilia at the end of the episode gets to go back and

[01:48:09] live her life from that moment in her childhood,

[01:48:11] but without the gaps now.

[01:48:13] And that would be lovely for her.

[01:48:15] If we get Alice back,

[01:48:17] I totally want Sharon too.

[01:48:19] And her to discover her green magic,

[01:48:21] please.

[01:48:23] That one's for you.

[01:48:24] Uh-huh.

[01:48:25] I mean,

[01:48:28] yeah.

[01:48:30] You guys know how,

[01:48:32] how I feel,

[01:48:33] you know where I'm at with it.

[01:48:35] Green magic.

[01:48:35] Yes.

[01:48:37] I got all the fields,

[01:48:38] all the fields.

[01:48:39] Yes.

[01:48:40] Totally on board with that.

[01:48:42] And she says,

[01:48:43] finally,

[01:48:43] the confirmation of Rio is death.

[01:48:45] I knew the reveal was coming,

[01:48:46] but it still was so effective in execution for me.

[01:48:49] It does open a possibility of Agatha,

[01:48:51] Agatha sacrificing herself for Billy in the finale and going willingly to her

[01:48:56] lover.

[01:48:56] And that could potentially be a satisfying ending.

[01:48:59] I'm torn between that and wanting to see,

[01:49:01] see a Kevin true at the end with Agatha,

[01:49:04] Billy,

[01:49:05] Jennifer,

[01:49:05] Alice,

[01:49:06] and Sharon.

[01:49:07] Again,

[01:49:07] either of those might be wildly different from what comic lore would suggest is

[01:49:11] likely,

[01:49:11] but I'm just speculating off of what we've seen.

[01:49:13] I'm loving this and trust the ending will hit me in the fields as much as the

[01:49:17] episode did.

[01:49:18] And I just have to point out,

[01:49:19] like,

[01:49:19] don't worry about comic book lore because we are way off that now.

[01:49:24] These characters are not hanging out together in the comics.

[01:49:27] No,

[01:49:27] no,

[01:49:27] no.

[01:49:28] And if they did,

[01:49:30] it probably wouldn't be in this way.

[01:49:32] No.

[01:49:32] So yeah,

[01:49:33] they've done a good job.

[01:49:35] Like you pointed out before,

[01:49:36] at least they just,

[01:49:38] you know,

[01:49:39] have taken some characters who,

[01:49:41] you know,

[01:49:41] don't have a lot,

[01:49:43] you know,

[01:49:44] they don't have a lot.

[01:49:45] and they've given them a lot.

[01:49:46] Alice and Lillia.

[01:49:48] Yeah.

[01:49:48] And they've given them a lot and you can,

[01:49:52] I,

[01:49:52] I would almost guarantee that there will be stories with these characters from

[01:49:59] the MCU show within the comics in the future.

[01:50:03] Mm.

[01:50:04] I hope so.

[01:50:05] I could almost guarantee this.

[01:50:07] Yeah.

[01:50:08] No,

[01:50:09] I mean,

[01:50:09] I would love to see more now that if they expand Lillia's presence,

[01:50:13] now that we've gotten this,

[01:50:14] because yeah,

[01:50:15] there's certainly room to do that.

[01:50:17] So we have some general chatter on the discord.

[01:50:22] Whoa,

[01:50:23] that ruled big Patty episode.

[01:50:25] Oh my God.

[01:50:27] That was incredible.

[01:50:28] Awesome episode.

[01:50:30] Great episode,

[01:50:31] but too short.

[01:50:32] All the episodes have been shot well,

[01:50:35] but there was something about this one that really came out.

[01:50:38] Well,

[01:50:38] almost beautiful at the end.

[01:50:40] Is Lillia my new favorite Marvel character?

[01:50:44] Best one yet.

[01:50:45] Ha ha.

[01:50:46] Amazing episode.

[01:50:49] And that last comment came from Davy Mac who continues.

[01:50:52] I'm someone who wasn't excited for this show for whatever,

[01:50:55] reason the MCU just doesn't do much for me,

[01:50:58] but I'm so glad at least she convinced me to give it a go.

[01:51:00] She baited me with promises of horror and spooky vibes,

[01:51:03] and I'm really having a great time with it.

[01:51:05] This episode alone has made it a worthwhile investment of my time.

[01:51:09] This episode rules my favorite of the bunch.

[01:51:12] I thought it was the perfect length for what they were doing.

[01:51:15] Every moment mattered.

[01:51:16] Patty LaPone killed it.

[01:51:17] And I loved Laura Baccholetti as,

[01:51:20] and the scenes they had together.

[01:51:22] A couple random aside slash comparisons.

[01:51:25] That came to mind while watching.

[01:51:26] I mentioned cabin in the woods in the cabin episode,

[01:51:29] but the tunnels underground in this episode really reminded me of cabin in the

[01:51:33] woods as well.

[01:51:34] Almost like there's a quote unquote,

[01:51:36] which is incorporated running these trials or something.

[01:51:39] And they've got tunnels leading to all the different quote unquote sets.

[01:51:43] So the staff can move around and get things set up or like Disneyland,

[01:51:47] which did you see the movie cabin in the woods?

[01:51:50] Sure.

[01:51:51] I vaguely remember it.

[01:51:54] Vaguely.

[01:51:55] Okay.

[01:51:56] I'm going to spoil part of it.

[01:51:59] So skip ahead one.

[01:52:00] If you don't want to hear this,

[01:52:01] but basically it,

[01:52:02] the premise is like they're being haunted in this cabin in the woods,

[01:52:06] like the stereotypical movie,

[01:52:07] but then they find out that it actually is an entire production that's being put on.

[01:52:11] Goodness gracious.

[01:52:12] Yeah.

[01:52:14] And so David Mack also says the opening slow-mo shots of her falling were beautiful and

[01:52:19] immediately called to mind some of the falling shots and Barry Jenkins underground railroad,

[01:52:23] which is a show I've been wanting to watch,

[01:52:25] but haven't.

[01:52:26] Did you get to watch it?

[01:52:26] I did watch it.

[01:52:27] I did watch it.

[01:52:28] And that's,

[01:52:29] you know,

[01:52:29] I didn't make that connection,

[01:52:31] but I can see it that he pointed it out.

[01:52:34] I can see it.

[01:52:35] It's kind of like a more sci-fi take on the story.

[01:52:38] Like it's not just like history,

[01:52:40] right?

[01:52:40] It's a more fantasy take on,

[01:52:42] on the story.

[01:52:43] I thought I haven't seen it,

[01:52:44] but that was the impression that I got from what people said.

[01:52:48] It's,

[01:52:48] um,

[01:52:49] it's a,

[01:52:50] it's a novel by Colson Whitehead.

[01:52:52] Um,

[01:52:53] so it is,

[01:52:56] there,

[01:52:56] there are some supernatural elements.

[01:52:59] I don't want to say it's,

[01:53:01] it's more historical fiction than straight up like supernatural,

[01:53:08] uh,

[01:53:09] story.

[01:53:10] It's very much an alternate history of,

[01:53:12] of the U S slave,

[01:53:14] um,

[01:53:17] antebellum,

[01:53:17] that entire era.

[01:53:20] Um,

[01:53:21] and you get a sense of,

[01:53:24] yeah,

[01:53:25] I'm trying to,

[01:53:27] I,

[01:53:28] I,

[01:53:29] um,

[01:53:30] you know,

[01:53:30] I haven't made that connection before.

[01:53:32] And it's really,

[01:53:33] and it's really now it's,

[01:53:34] I bet in a certain time of play and place,

[01:53:37] Harriet Tubman would have been called a witch.

[01:53:38] Now it's,

[01:53:39] it's really,

[01:53:41] he's pointing this out.

[01:53:42] And I,

[01:53:43] this is a connection to that.

[01:53:44] She would certainly be called an inconvenient woman as Jennifer was.

[01:53:49] Oh yeah,

[01:53:49] definitely.

[01:53:51] Yeah.

[01:53:52] That's an,

[01:53:53] that's a fascinating connection to make.

[01:53:56] And I wish I had done it,

[01:53:57] but I thank him for doing it because that's really astute.

[01:54:03] You want to continue with do?

[01:54:04] Yeah.

[01:54:06] Yeah.

[01:54:06] I'm,

[01:54:06] I'm thinking of the ground.

[01:54:08] I'm sorry.

[01:54:10] Oh,

[01:54:10] so do 71 managing to finally catch up on the pods.

[01:54:15] Not sure if it was episode five or six of the pod where you mentioned

[01:54:19] Hecate,

[01:54:20] but it reminded me of a comic series from the early nineties in the British

[01:54:23] comic 2000 AD.

[01:54:25] There was a strip around the ABC warriors atomic,

[01:54:29] um,

[01:54:29] bacteriological and chemical,

[01:54:30] a group of warrior robots abandoned by humanity,

[01:54:33] a dirty half dozen,

[01:54:35] if you will.

[01:54:36] The series was called heads for Hecate.

[01:54:39] They ended up on chaos on a chaos magic planet and embarked on an

[01:54:44] assassination mission for Hecate.

[01:54:46] It pulled in references from all sorts of Wicca magic at all.

[01:54:51] And was totally bonkers.

[01:54:53] They include a link.

[01:54:54] Um,

[01:54:55] the early nineties run of 2000 AD went hard into chaos and magic as well as

[01:55:01] this.

[01:55:02] You had a brilliant run of legendary Celtic warrior slain.

[01:55:07] Yeah.

[01:55:08] Slain one series for Alicia to,

[01:55:10] I feel like there's probably a better Irish pronunciation.

[01:55:14] I know.

[01:55:15] I can't,

[01:55:15] I can't think of it.

[01:55:16] Um,

[01:55:17] one series,

[01:55:18] the horn God,

[01:55:19] uh,

[01:55:20] the art was by Simon Bisley who went hard on the sword,

[01:55:24] sandals,

[01:55:25] and sex.

[01:55:25] Remember,

[01:55:26] remember this is an early nineties comic run for hormonal teenagers,

[01:55:30] but the whole slain series of the time had great deep cuts into Celtic

[01:55:36] mythology,

[01:55:37] green man myths,

[01:55:39] or theory on legends,

[01:55:40] Wicca,

[01:55:41] as well as North mythology.

[01:55:42] Great times.

[01:55:44] Um,

[01:55:45] it was a,

[01:55:46] a long running series.

[01:55:47] It started off a bit rough with slain being a big Conan,

[01:55:52] but when it started to lean into Celtic mythology,

[01:55:55] especially around the slain,

[01:55:56] the King run,

[01:55:57] it was amazing.

[01:55:58] Other runs see him travel time and pulling grail law in all sorts of historical

[01:56:03] craziness.

[01:56:04] I haven't read any of those.

[01:56:07] Yeah.

[01:56:07] I mean,

[01:56:07] it sounds,

[01:56:08] I guess it's British comics,

[01:56:09] but I'm definitely,

[01:56:10] thank you for putting it on our radar.

[01:56:11] Cause that sounds cool.

[01:56:12] Yeah,

[01:56:13] it does.

[01:56:13] It does sound cool.

[01:56:16] So Athena,

[01:56:17] Adjalea says,

[01:56:18] I really need a detailed tarot card breakdown as someone who doesn't see that

[01:56:21] enough.

[01:56:21] I want to break down Tina and Agatha's cards.

[01:56:24] They pulled as well.

[01:56:25] And so Athena,

[01:56:26] it is because of you that I added that.

[01:56:29] I was just going to do the,

[01:56:30] um,

[01:56:31] the Lily of reading parts,

[01:56:32] but I was like,

[01:56:33] you know what,

[01:56:33] let's see what we can pull out of the Agatha teen stuff.

[01:56:37] So Athena goes on to say,

[01:56:38] I,

[01:56:38] I must say the show has had perfect pacing and writing for me.

[01:56:42] I feel they know when to reveal some things and they plant seeds well

[01:56:46] throughout the story.

[01:56:47] So every reveal feels right and expected and yet so unexpected or surprising

[01:56:52] to just breaking my heart as well.

[01:56:54] These last few episodes,

[01:56:56] Lily is death was just amazing for me.

[01:56:58] And so heartbreaking.

[01:57:00] Yeah,

[01:57:01] we definitely agree.

[01:57:03] Yeah.

[01:57:03] Abby writes.

[01:57:04] Wow.

[01:57:05] What an episode.

[01:57:06] Death comes to us all.

[01:57:08] Yes.

[01:57:09] But what matters is how you go.

[01:57:11] If you're an awesome,

[01:57:12] which like Lillia,

[01:57:13] you go on your own terms.

[01:57:16] Hear,

[01:57:16] hear.

[01:57:18] Danny says,

[01:57:19] uh,

[01:57:19] well,

[01:57:20] so Danny shared is some experience with dimensionist family on the discord,

[01:57:24] but then added on a letter note.

[01:57:26] I was able to avoid the Funko spoiler,

[01:57:28] but after the first night told wife,

[01:57:30] my predictions that teen was Billy,

[01:57:32] duh,

[01:57:32] and Rio was death.

[01:57:34] Now she either thinks I'm lying that I didn't already know for sure.

[01:57:37] Or I'm so nerdy.

[01:57:39] And she's reconsidering life choices.

[01:57:42] It's an attractive quality.

[01:57:46] Nevermind.

[01:57:47] Nicole,

[01:57:48] really fantastic episode.

[01:57:49] There are some interesting references to the sword of Damocles parable.

[01:57:54] Here's some information about that.

[01:57:56] The moral of the ancient Greek parable,

[01:57:59] the sword of Damocles is that those who have wealth,

[01:58:01] power,

[01:58:02] and luxury also face a threat theme with great power comes great responsibility and

[01:58:09] great danger.

[01:58:10] Story.

[01:58:12] Damocles,

[01:58:12] a courtier of the tiring Dionysus is a flatterer who constantly praises

[01:58:18] Dionysus,

[01:58:19] he's wealth and power.

[01:58:20] Dionysus gives Damocles everything he wants,

[01:58:23] but then hangs a sword over his head to represent the problems and

[01:58:28] responsibilities that come with power.

[01:58:32] And yeah,

[01:58:33] so that was a Nicole from nevermind the music.

[01:58:35] Nevermind the music.

[01:58:37] Podcast for sure.

[01:58:38] Um,

[01:58:39] but yeah,

[01:58:39] you mentioned this week's episode.

[01:58:41] The last one they dropped.

[01:58:43] Yeah,

[01:58:44] no,

[01:58:44] I mean,

[01:58:44] so they,

[01:58:44] they recorded a bunch in advance,

[01:58:46] so they're able to be like really regular and everyone,

[01:58:50] even if like,

[01:58:51] I don't necessarily like the song.

[01:58:53] It's so interesting to hear how they break it down.

[01:58:55] Right.

[01:58:56] The music and psychological perspective.

[01:58:58] Yeah.

[01:58:58] But yeah,

[01:58:59] you brought up the sword of Damocles earlier also.

[01:59:01] Yeah.

[01:59:02] I immediately,

[01:59:03] you know,

[01:59:05] felt that.

[01:59:05] And,

[01:59:05] and,

[01:59:06] uh,

[01:59:07] relation with power,

[01:59:08] with the sword hanging over your,

[01:59:11] your head,

[01:59:11] which is what they all said they wanted on the road was power,

[01:59:15] their power back.

[01:59:17] And they're in the room.

[01:59:18] Great power.

[01:59:19] Yeah.

[01:59:19] But now they're in a room with the literal sword hanging above them in,

[01:59:24] in search of that great power.

[01:59:27] Yeah.

[01:59:29] Yep.

[01:59:30] Uh,

[01:59:30] and Maureen D says,

[01:59:31] I was expecting Rio to be the wicked witch of the West and the wizard of Oz

[01:59:34] themed episode,

[01:59:35] but Agatha really rocked it.

[01:59:37] I somehow knew Rio was death,

[01:59:39] but I'm not sure if I saw it somewhere or figured it out.

[01:59:42] I love how they don't drag out reveals like rings of power.

[01:59:46] And it isn't the whole point.

[01:59:48] Anyway,

[01:59:49] Lily is story arc was so beautiful that I wasn't even sad,

[01:59:52] especially because time is circular for her.

[01:59:54] Even if it's not a quote unquote linear circle,

[01:59:57] that sounds contradictory,

[01:59:58] clean circle.

[02:00:00] Her life cycle reminds me of string theory,

[02:00:03] constantly folding in on itself.

[02:00:05] So yeah.

[02:00:05] So string theory,

[02:00:06] um,

[02:00:07] is a theory about that tries to explain the weirdness of,

[02:00:12] of,

[02:00:12] um,

[02:00:13] physics basically by saying that there are extra dimensions that are like

[02:00:18] curled up in this,

[02:00:20] these,

[02:00:21] uh,

[02:00:22] little,

[02:00:22] uh,

[02:00:23] subatomic shapes and,

[02:00:25] uh,

[02:00:26] this.

[02:00:26] Yeah.

[02:00:27] I prefer to think of extra dimensions as well.

[02:00:31] Time we often say is the fourth dimension and it does not go in only one

[02:00:35] direction.

[02:00:36] Imaginary time also goes perpendicular to that things like that.

[02:00:39] Um,

[02:00:41] but then I like to think like,

[02:00:43] I don't know other dimensions or possibility or things like that.

[02:00:45] But if I say that to friends who are physics professors,

[02:00:48] they're like,

[02:00:49] what's the formula for that?

[02:00:50] And I'm like,

[02:00:50] nevermind moving on.

[02:00:53] Um,

[02:00:54] but anyway,

[02:00:54] yeah,

[02:00:55] this,

[02:00:55] that's an interesting concept.

[02:00:56] Uh,

[02:00:57] she says,

[02:00:58] I wasn't really excited for Agatha.

[02:01:00] Wanda vision blew me away and it didn't seem possible that any spinoff

[02:01:03] would measure up,

[02:01:03] but they've taken Agatha to places.

[02:01:05] I didn't know I needed.

[02:01:06] I love how they explore the complexities of being a woman of needing covens.

[02:01:10] If it is difficult working with other people,

[02:01:13] um,

[02:01:14] and the complexities of motherhood and teen slash Billy trying to figure himself

[02:01:19] out and deal with the loss of his mother.

[02:01:21] Each character has a complex relationship issues and issues owning their own

[02:01:26] power.

[02:01:26] It's just so meaningful on many levels and they weave in culture echoes on

[02:01:32] witchcraft.

[02:01:33] So elegantly here,

[02:01:35] here,

[02:01:36] any last thoughts,

[02:01:37] Sean?

[02:01:38] Um,

[02:01:40] no,

[02:01:40] just really great episode.

[02:01:43] And I'm,

[02:01:45] I'm,

[02:01:45] you know,

[02:01:48] thinking of how much value we place and both being alone,

[02:01:58] but needing others.

[02:02:00] Right.

[02:02:02] And this episode,

[02:02:04] really the relationship between Lillia and Jen is just something that

[02:02:14] is going to stay with me because they showcase that,

[02:02:20] you know,

[02:02:21] these two women who had been living on,

[02:02:25] you know,

[02:02:25] there for a very long time,

[02:02:27] separate from everyone else,

[02:02:30] isolating themselves from themselves,

[02:02:33] from themselves,

[02:02:35] isolating themselves,

[02:02:36] literally from themselves.

[02:02:37] Right.

[02:02:38] And from others who could share experiences,

[02:02:43] experience with,

[02:02:44] who they can share experience with,

[02:02:46] who they could commiserate with,

[02:02:48] who they could commune with and finding each other in this moment.

[02:02:54] And for Lillia making that sacrifice,

[02:02:57] looking at her,

[02:02:58] asking her to journey with her on this path and knowing at the end that this

[02:03:04] is as far as it's going to go.

[02:03:06] That,

[02:03:07] that is just,

[02:03:08] that's going to stay with me.

[02:03:11] Yeah.

[02:03:11] That's going to stay with me.

[02:03:13] Yeah,

[02:03:14] absolutely.

[02:03:14] I cannot wait to see how they land this plane next week with our double

[02:03:20] Halloween episode.

[02:03:22] And we are,

[02:03:23] we were,

[02:03:24] we've been tossing around early ideas about doing a wrap up pod after.

[02:03:28] So I think we're definitely going to do some sort of wrap up.

[02:03:31] We're not ready to get off this broomstick.

[02:03:33] I think we should.

[02:03:35] And just again,

[02:03:36] with the underground railroad,

[02:03:38] like just remembering both the written,

[02:03:43] how I felt imagining that,

[02:03:46] that underground passage,

[02:03:49] because it's literally a real,

[02:03:51] he wrote a real railroad traveling,

[02:03:54] you know,

[02:03:55] through South Carolina to bring slaves to freedom.

[02:03:57] Um,

[02:03:59] imagining if that were to actually have existed in the 19th century.

[02:04:04] And then the visuals in the TV show,

[02:04:10] just,

[02:04:11] yeah,

[02:04:12] just that falling.

[02:04:14] There's something there that you can get on the page,

[02:04:20] but also when you actually see that thing on screen,

[02:04:25] that makes that's magic.

[02:04:28] Yeah.

[02:04:29] And that's why,

[02:04:30] you know,

[02:04:31] for me,

[02:04:32] this is why I read the things that I read.

[02:04:34] This is why I watch the things that I watch because it is magic.

[02:04:40] Yeah.

[02:04:41] I mean,

[02:04:42] yeah,

[02:04:42] this show has been a special kind of magic for me.

[02:04:44] As David said,

[02:04:45] it does ideally marry camp with these sort of,

[02:04:50] deeper explorations of humanity.

[02:04:52] And I've been having a lot of fun covering it.

[02:04:55] So listeners,

[02:04:56] if you're enjoying our coverage,

[02:04:57] uh,

[02:04:58] you can also help us out by passing it on and passing on these episodes to

[02:05:02] other people.

[02:05:03] Oh,

[02:05:03] that's my,

[02:05:04] that's my familiar ghost saying hello.

[02:05:07] He says,

[02:05:07] stop record,

[02:05:08] stop talking into the imaginary person in the mic.

[02:05:13] But yeah,

[02:05:14] you can,

[02:05:14] uh,

[02:05:14] you can definitely help us out there by passing this on.

[02:05:17] And,

[02:05:17] um,

[02:05:18] also by leaving us positive reviews,

[02:05:20] wherever you're listening,

[02:05:21] that's a huge help in,

[02:05:22] and,

[02:05:23] um,

[02:05:23] helping other people find this coverage.

[02:05:25] If you think that this is worth listening to,

[02:05:27] um,

[02:05:28] I feel though,

[02:05:29] I should tell you that I have not seen the Sopranos and apparently that's

[02:05:35] worth one star review.

[02:05:36] So I have nothing against it.

[02:05:39] I plan to watch it,

[02:05:40] but so speaking of someone who was mad at me for saying that on the

[02:05:45] penguin,

[02:05:45] um,

[02:05:46] um,

[02:05:46] but the penguin is going well,

[02:05:48] right?

[02:05:49] Going really well.

[02:05:50] We've seen through episode five as we're recording.

[02:05:53] Yeah.

[02:05:54] Loving it.

[02:05:54] I'm loving the show,

[02:05:55] loving everything about it.

[02:05:57] Um,

[02:05:58] yeah,

[02:05:59] just really,

[02:06:00] really great.

[02:06:01] Another really great,

[02:06:03] um,

[02:06:05] comic book adaptation.

[02:06:07] Yeah.

[02:06:07] We're getting to enjoy side by side,

[02:06:09] totally different,

[02:06:11] but equally as fulfilling.

[02:06:13] Yeah.

[02:06:14] Much more like what I imagine the Sopranos is,

[02:06:16] but I,

[02:06:17] I,

[02:06:17] I'm very into it.

[02:06:18] I'm very into it.

[02:06:18] And we also got,

[02:06:19] um,

[02:06:20] we can't do any spoilers here,

[02:06:21] but,

[02:06:21] uh,

[02:06:22] we got something at the end of the last episode that's sort of setting the

[02:06:26] penguin up in a way that might be more familiar.

[02:06:28] Yeah.

[02:06:29] From other iterations.

[02:06:32] Yeah.

[02:06:32] I just want to say one,

[02:06:33] one last thing with not just this episode,

[02:06:37] but in general for folks to you,

[02:06:40] Alicia and everyone who's listening,

[02:06:42] just I'm working this stuff out as we're talking,

[02:06:49] you know what I mean?

[02:06:50] So I'm thinking about this,

[02:06:52] this stuff as we're,

[02:06:54] we're discussing it,

[02:06:55] as we're going through it.

[02:06:57] And I'm trying to make it make sense in my mind.

[02:07:00] And that's what you hear coming out.

[02:07:02] This is not pre-recorded.

[02:07:05] This is just really two people trying to understand in the moment,

[02:07:13] what it is that we're watching.

[02:07:14] And,

[02:07:15] I really appreciate the opportunity to do so.

[02:07:19] And I'm so happy that everyone is listening,

[02:07:24] listening to us,

[02:07:25] listening to me mostly grapple with,

[02:07:27] with,

[02:07:27] with the nature of what I'm,

[02:07:29] what I'm watching.

[02:07:31] So thank you for that,

[02:07:32] for that space.

[02:07:33] when David was,

[02:07:35] uh,

[02:07:35] he,

[02:07:35] he was trying to figure out,

[02:07:37] he said that there was something about our coverage of this show that made

[02:07:41] him want to submit,

[02:07:44] you know,

[02:07:44] talk about his ideas more made him want to speak up.

[02:07:47] And he said that it was,

[02:07:48] it felt like the freshness of our conversation,

[02:07:51] which I think is,

[02:07:52] especially what you bring to the table.

[02:07:54] I bring,

[02:07:55] uh,

[02:07:56] an overabundance of research where you're like,

[02:07:58] stop Alicia.

[02:07:59] Oh no,

[02:08:00] no,

[02:08:00] no,

[02:08:00] no,

[02:08:01] not,

[02:08:01] not you,

[02:08:02] not you.

[02:08:02] No,

[02:08:02] I know.

[02:08:02] I know.

[02:08:03] I don't think anyone is saying stop.

[02:08:05] We need more of that in our,

[02:08:07] in our world.

[02:08:08] Definitely.

[02:08:09] Um,

[02:08:10] but yeah,

[02:08:11] so Joker two coverage.

[02:08:13] So we've decided,

[02:08:15] I still haven't seen it.

[02:08:16] This is my fault.

[02:08:17] I've just been so busy this month.

[02:08:19] Um,

[02:08:20] but we've decided,

[02:08:21] so it's coming out on digital on the 29th of October.

[02:08:26] So like imminently.

[02:08:27] So we've decided that's a good time to cover it after that,

[02:08:30] basically after Agatha,

[02:08:32] because this is taking up a lot.

[02:08:34] Yeah.

[02:08:34] Yeah.

[02:08:35] And also there's a pachinko one shot coming.

[02:08:38] Um,

[02:08:39] because of the similar scheduling issues that's going to come in early

[02:08:42] November.

[02:08:43] Uh,

[02:08:44] but in the meantime,

[02:08:45] spooktober is well underway.

[02:08:47] We've recorded two poltergeist episodes,

[02:08:49] one for the public lorehounds feed,

[02:08:51] one for the private lorehounds feed on wool shift dust.

[02:08:55] There's going to be craft,

[02:08:56] uh,

[02:08:56] coverage of the film,

[02:08:57] the craft and the public feed and an episode where Marilyn and I talk

[02:09:01] about what is a witch on for subscribers.

[02:09:06] Um,

[02:09:07] yeah,

[02:09:07] star Wars cannon timeline podcast is,

[02:09:09] uh,

[02:09:10] unfortunately getting the squeeze,

[02:09:11] but there is a special spooktober episode coming out for subscribers.

[02:09:14] And also,

[02:09:15] uh,

[02:09:16] high Republic coverage is going to resume imminently.

[02:09:19] Uh,

[02:09:19] but it's getting the squeeze because I am deep in dune in silo for wool shift dust,

[02:09:26] which,

[02:09:26] uh,

[02:09:27] we've,

[02:09:27] yeah,

[02:09:27] we've recorded some episodes for both of those that are coming your way soon.

[02:09:32] Elsewhere in the network,

[02:09:33] we mentioned nevermind the music.

[02:09:35] Definitely check them out.

[02:09:36] If you haven't yet.

[02:09:37] Um,

[02:09:38] it's just such a fun,

[02:09:39] like quick,

[02:09:40] but thoughtful episodes,

[02:09:42] thought provoking episodes and radioactive rambling is busy now with the red rising series,

[02:09:48] which is,

[02:09:48] I,

[02:09:49] I am dying to read these books.

[02:09:51] I've been dying to read these books and now I'm like double dying to read these books because they just sound like totally up my alley.

[02:09:58] Like fantasy meets silo sort of situation.

[02:10:02] You're looking forward to silo season two.

[02:10:05] I am looking forward to silo dune,

[02:10:08] you know,

[02:10:09] I have to make a new list for silo of,

[02:10:12] you know,

[02:10:13] evildoers.

[02:10:14] And,

[02:10:14] um,

[02:10:14] yeah,

[02:10:15] Bernard,

[02:10:16] the bastard is gonna,

[02:10:17] yeah.

[02:10:18] Or Sims,

[02:10:18] not as we start calling him.

[02:10:20] So we'll see,

[02:10:20] we'll see what happens with that,

[02:10:22] but yeah,

[02:10:22] I'm looking forward to it.

[02:10:23] Definitely.

[02:10:24] All right.

[02:10:25] Well,

[02:10:26] let's,

[02:10:26] let's say our,

[02:10:28] uh,

[02:10:28] our acknowledgements on our own network.

[02:10:31] And of course I have music lined up.

[02:10:34] So this time,

[02:10:35] because Lilia,

[02:10:37] she reminded me of my grandmother,

[02:10:39] Natasha,

[02:10:39] not just because of,

[02:10:41] not just because she lived a long time and,

[02:10:43] and,

[02:10:43] you know,

[02:10:44] slip back to her youthful times at the end,

[02:10:47] but also just because my grandmother was,

[02:10:49] she was a ballerina.

[02:10:51] She was an artist interested in,

[02:10:53] uh,

[02:10:53] theater and,

[02:10:54] and literature.

[02:10:55] And,

[02:10:56] you know,

[02:10:56] she's the one who always told me to lean into my creative side.

[02:11:01] And as a ballerina,

[02:11:03] she was especially,

[02:11:04] um,

[02:11:05] fond of Swan Lake,

[02:11:07] which she did dance.

[02:11:08] And for that reason,

[02:11:09] I always constantly,

[02:11:11] my entire life have the Swan Lake finale stuck in my head.

[02:11:17] So we have a,

[02:11:19] we have a version,

[02:11:20] a piano version of that from easy piano dot CZ that I want to thank for,

[02:11:24] uh,

[02:11:25] accompanying my reading.

[02:11:31] Okay.

[02:11:31] So first we're going to thank our discord server boosters who help us get all

[02:11:35] the bells and whistles to,

[02:11:37] uh,

[02:11:37] make that a more functional and fun place.

[02:11:39] Thank you,

[02:11:40] Aaron K.

[02:11:41] Tiller,

[02:11:42] the thriller,

[02:11:42] dork of the ninjas,

[02:11:44] doof 71,

[02:11:45] Athena,

[02:11:46] Adjalea,

[02:11:46] Tina,

[02:11:47] the stew,

[02:11:48] Nancy M ghost of partition and Richard W.

[02:11:51] And thank you,

[02:11:52] especially to our lore masters,

[02:11:54] our highest tier of subscribers.

[02:11:56] We really appreciate our listeners.

[02:11:58] We really appreciate our lore hound supporters,

[02:12:02] our lore founder supporters,

[02:12:03] the lore masters who are the ones who really make us able to do that.

[02:12:07] So thank you.

[02:12:08] It's the Martian,

[02:12:09] Michael G,

[02:12:10] Michelle E,

[02:12:10] Brian P,

[02:12:11] SC,

[02:12:12] Peter O H,

[02:12:13] Katina W,

[02:12:14] Adam S,

[02:12:14] Nancy M,

[02:12:15] dude 71,

[02:12:16] Brian 80 63,

[02:12:18] Frederick H,

[02:12:19] Sarah L,

[02:12:20] Garrett C,

[02:12:21] Eric F,

[02:12:22] Matthew M,

[02:12:22] Sarah M,

[02:12:23] DJ Miwa,

[02:12:24] Andra B,

[02:12:25] Kwong Yu,

[02:12:25] Ted,

[02:12:26] I,

[02:12:26] Jedi,

[02:12:26] Bob Nathan T,

[02:12:27] Alex V,

[02:12:28] Aaron T,

[02:12:29] Sub-Zero,

[02:12:30] Aaron K,

[02:12:30] Dally V,

[02:12:31] Mothership,

[02:12:31] Gnarls,

[02:12:33] Kathy W.

[02:12:34] Lestude,

[02:12:34] Jeffrey B,

[02:12:35] Elisa U,

[02:12:35] Fossey U,

[02:12:36] Neil F,

[02:12:37] Ben B,

[02:12:38] Scott F,

[02:12:39] and always,

[02:12:40] may he be forever last,

[02:12:43] Adrian.

[02:12:46] Thank you.

[02:12:51] Thank you.

[02:12:51] Thank you all.

[02:12:52] And John,

[02:12:53] do you want to take us out?

[02:12:55] Recast T'Challa.

[02:12:59] The Lorehounds podcast is produced and

[02:13:01] published by the Lorehounds.

[02:13:03] You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at

[02:13:06] thelorehounds.com slash contact.

[02:13:09] Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at

[02:13:12] patreon.com slash the Lorehounds.

[02:13:14] Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the

[02:13:17] opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities.

[02:13:34] I loved being a witch.

[02:13:51] I loved being a witch.