Agatha All Along – S01E08&09, pt 2 – season finale mailbag (MCUniverse)

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[00:01:35] Hi, Alicia here, back with Jean for our own special spinoff.

[00:01:40] We've got a full mailbag of thoughts and theories from the community about the end of Agatha all along, so we've given this feedback discussion its own dedicated episode.

[00:01:48] We'll be launching right into spoilers, so make sure you're caught up before listening on. And fair warning, we reserve the right to bring up anything else we might find relevant from either the MCU or Marvel Comics.

[00:02:02] And I definitely recommend listening to our episode breakdown that was really shortly before this because we will be building off of that for sure.

[00:02:11] And it's really good.

[00:02:13] And it's really good, of course.

[00:02:18] And this episode is going to be released basically right on the heels of the episode's breakdown we recorded yesterday, so we won't waste your time on preamble.

[00:02:26] Should we get into our first piece of feedback?

[00:02:28] Yeah, let's do it.

[00:02:30] All right. This is a voicemail from our own David.

[00:02:34] Hey, Alicia. Hey, Jean.

[00:02:35] Just wanted to send in a quick few thoughts.

[00:02:39] There's so much to say about this, but hey, good thing you guys have a podcast to talk about all the things.

[00:02:45] I'll just keep my comments a little bit short.

[00:02:48] This show really surprised me in a number of ways, and it really had the courage to not follow through in ways that would have been an easy path for an average show.

[00:03:04] So this show really is above average.

[00:03:06] It sort of gets into that exceptional class because they made some specific decisions.

[00:03:14] Just a couple of examples of those.

[00:03:16] They didn't resurrect anyone.

[00:03:18] I'm really sad we don't get Mrs. Hart back.

[00:03:21] But Sharon, sorry.

[00:03:23] So it's really surprising that they didn't.

[00:03:26] And that is great.

[00:03:29] It's also really interesting because I was thinking that we were going to have an Agatha redemption arc.

[00:03:35] I was on record about that and that she would get a coven back like this would be her coven.

[00:03:40] And that we'd have this Willy Wonka moment where everybody shows up at the end.

[00:03:44] But we didn't do that.

[00:03:45] And in fact, Agatha dies.

[00:03:46] That is also a really radical proposition.

[00:03:50] I think a normal television show would have been a kumbaya moment at the end where everybody reappears and Agatha learns her lesson.

[00:03:59] But in this, Agatha doesn't learn a lesson and she actually pays a price for it by dying.

[00:04:07] And I think what this show is ultimately about is the human heart in conflict with itself.

[00:04:16] So it's all wrapped up around the inability to face grief and loss, which is typically something we don't do alone as human beings.

[00:04:28] And yet Agatha remains defiant and alone.

[00:04:33] And she doesn't process her grief and she's not willing to face it.

[00:04:37] And that goes, I think, hand in hand in her issue of being a covenless witch.

[00:04:42] She's not repentant about committing mass murder and depriving the world of all of the good that could have come from all of those covens that she annihilated.

[00:04:55] And yet in both episodes eight and nine, we experience catharsis.

[00:05:01] We actually get to have a release and a transformation and it was satisfying and fulfilling at the same time.

[00:05:12] Not at all what I expected.

[00:05:14] And that really makes me happy.

[00:05:16] I'm very pleased by by what we got.

[00:05:19] Need to mention a couple of final things.

[00:05:22] The topic of a white woman stealing a black woman's power that it's the black woman who survives, who's the sole survivor of all of the women characters, which totally breaks the trope of hashtag BDDF black dude dies first.

[00:05:39] And so I love that they flip that around.

[00:05:42] So good on you showrunners.

[00:05:45] Love the posters in Billy's room.

[00:05:48] There are some great ones.

[00:05:50] I did some Leo pointing memes for Alicia on her behalf, trans rights or human rights.

[00:05:55] And I think Agatha goes into my number two slot for my Marvel TV power rankings right behind Loki.

[00:06:04] And the last thing I have to say is this.

[00:06:08] What?

[00:06:09] Kaiser Schuss.

[00:06:10] Kaiser Schuss.

[00:06:12] Lots of my Kaiser Schuss.

[00:06:18] So Jen's the final girl.

[00:06:20] And we're going to this Kaiser Schuss comparison is going to come up in another piece of feedback.

[00:06:25] But I have to point out that one thing is that Billy did it by accident.

[00:06:29] Kaiser Schuss was definitely an intentional.

[00:06:31] Not an accident.

[00:06:33] Yeah.

[00:06:34] Not an accident.

[00:06:35] That's from the usual suspects in case anyone doesn't know.

[00:06:37] And I won't spoil that movie in case you haven't seen it.

[00:06:39] And if you haven't seen it, shame on you.

[00:06:41] Fix it.

[00:06:41] Go see it.

[00:06:43] Yeah.

[00:06:44] But what do you think about what David had to say?

[00:06:46] No, I agree with the things that he said, you know.

[00:06:50] And we spoke about it, you know, from who's actually stole or bound Jen.

[00:06:59] Mm-hmm.

[00:07:01] And, you know, her, I mean, Agatha's unwillingness to face her, to face the consequences of what she has done.

[00:07:12] Mm-hmm.

[00:07:13] So I'm totally in agreement that she has not atoned yet.

[00:07:17] Mm-hmm.

[00:07:18] And is still trying to find a space for that.

[00:07:22] I don't know if we'll see her find that space.

[00:07:26] Hopefully that's where, you know, we want our characters, we want people to grow and to learn and to be better.

[00:07:34] But she doesn't, at the end, I still don't feel as if she is there.

[00:07:42] Hmm.

[00:07:43] Yeah, I mean, I agree with you both to a certain extent.

[00:07:47] But I think, you know, I think that it's, I like to see things in shades of gray and she's moving from the darkest of grays into like a slightly lighter shade by the end of this series.

[00:08:00] And I, they've set up the story so that there is, you know, we need a payoff in another project where, because just especially with the whole thing about her not wanting to see her son, this shows that she does realize she's done something wrong.

[00:08:18] Whether or not she necessarily feels bad for it or is still telling herself, like, I did what I needed to do to survive.

[00:08:25] Um, she knows realization is, you know, the first step that knowing that, um, she's done something.

[00:08:33] It's after battle.

[00:08:33] Yeah.

[00:08:34] She's no, she knows that she's done things that, uh, make her ashamed to face her son.

[00:08:40] Right.

[00:08:41] In the afterlife.

[00:08:42] And who knows what he's done since he died?

[00:08:44] Just saying.

[00:08:46] We will not besmirch little Nikki over here.

[00:08:50] Mm-hmm.

[00:08:50] I'm gonna besmirch little Nikki.

[00:08:52] Just saying.

[00:08:52] We don't know.

[00:08:53] It's been centuries.

[00:08:54] He's been in the afterlife.

[00:08:56] Who knows?

[00:08:57] My Fisto knows what he's been up to.

[00:08:59] No, no, no, no.

[00:09:00] We will not besmirch little Nikki.

[00:09:02] No.

[00:09:03] But yeah, I agree that, um, Agatha still needs to process her grief and she's just beginning her grief journey.

[00:09:09] I think it's interesting that, you know, one person, the person who's helping her process her grief journey, perhaps the most is the son who was a product of her best frenemies grief journey.

[00:09:23] Right.

[00:09:23] Right.

[00:09:24] So she kind of got model, Wanda as a model of like what can go right and what can go wrong.

[00:09:31] So.

[00:09:31] And I guess that's the through line through these characters with these stories, you know, WandaVision, multiverse of madness, Agatha grief, you know, and, and what it does and what it means.

[00:09:47] And, um, I'll be interested to see if they carry that, that, you know, messaging that thought in, in the vision series.

[00:09:55] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:09:57] Yeah.

[00:09:58] Cause he has his own grief to process in, in losing his own identity as well as everything else.

[00:10:03] Yeah.

[00:10:04] All right.

[00:10:05] Thank you, David.

[00:10:06] So we're going to get on to Mark from nevermind the music.

[00:10:10] And if you haven't checked it out, you should check it out.

[00:10:13] Um, their feed is active on our discord.

[00:10:15] Uh, and you can see, uh, you can go to our, wherever you listen to podcasts and you'll find nevermind the music, which is a really cool.

[00:10:24] Um, Mark starts.

[00:10:26] Hi, everyone.

[00:10:27] Quick feedback on the finale.

[00:10:29] Very much enjoyed this season.

[00:10:32] Had zero knowledge of these characters beforehand.

[00:10:34] And the vibe was all a big question mark to me, but loved how it developed.

[00:10:39] Great twist at the end.

[00:10:40] Final thoughts on the music to echo my detailed message on the, on down the witch's road music from earlier in the season.

[00:10:48] I love the montage of Agatha and Nicholas gradually iterating on and changing their simple down the windy road song and to even what eventually becomes down the witch's road.

[00:11:00] This felt very organic to me, where of course the lyrics would morph little by little, especially as death and murder become a larger and larger piece of their life.

[00:11:10] But also the music itself had subtle melodic transformation that led from point A, the first time we see them singing to point B, the final version of the song.

[00:11:20] It's easy to imagine these kinds of changes happening over time as two people saying the same song over and over again, rifting on it little by little.

[00:11:30] Yes, this would be an example of the motive development discussed in the first episode of Nevermind the Music, the Paramore episode.

[00:11:40] It actually calls to mind the idea of developing variation used by romantic composers like Brahms and Mahler, where a single motive or thematic element will travel quite far from its original version to a later fully fleshed out melody.

[00:11:54] Of course, in both that context as well as Paramore, we're talking about a melody evolving over the course of a single piece of music, not that piece of music evolving over real world time.

[00:12:08] In that way, it's more like a folk song changing through generations through oral transmission.

[00:12:14] Minor Rings of Power spoiler.

[00:12:17] Not to harp on it, but in this way, I find a significant reconfiguration of these songs over a few years of a mother and son walking around the countryside to be a bit more realistic than the lyrical stasis of the walking song of the Harfords over potentially hundreds of years.

[00:12:37] Though reasonable minds may disagree.

[00:12:40] RIP Alice, Lilia, and Sharon.

[00:12:44] Well, yeah, I said in our episode yesterday that I hoped Mark would comment on this and he did not disappoint.

[00:12:51] So.

[00:12:52] So what are your thoughts on?

[00:12:55] Yeah, I mean, I, I completely agree.

[00:12:58] I think it's interesting that we do have both versions of evolution where we have how it started, you know, being how they came up with it together and they have those tender scenes of mother and son, you know, coming up with the lyrics together.

[00:13:11] And then how the song became its own thing once it, you know, Nikki was singing it and other people would pick it up and it developed out there in the world where other people imbued their meaning in it.

[00:13:25] Right.

[00:13:26] Which obviously led to a good excuse for Agatha to kill a lot of them.

[00:13:29] But, and then we see it's so interesting because Billy is the one who is creating the road that they walk on in this show.

[00:13:38] And he's taking a lot of that thought from the song.

[00:13:42] Um, it's just interesting how many people's different perspectives and, uh, ideas are contributing back into, you know, we have Agatha at the beginning, starting it and then Agatha at the end, experiencing it and being like, wow, what has this song become?

[00:13:58] Yeah.

[00:13:59] I mean, I love the way that they, they showed the, how it started and how it changed through time.

[00:14:08] Um, and I, and very much in keeping with how the two people who started the song also changed and the song changed, um, to reflect that.

[00:14:21] So, yeah, just, I mean, good stuff.

[00:14:25] Yeah.

[00:14:28] Yeah.

[00:14:28] And so we have from John from the Lord hounds fantastic ending.

[00:14:32] Marvel TV is back, baby, which I think I will maintain it only ever went away for one show.

[00:14:38] And we all know what that is.

[00:14:39] And this, the show that we will never name on any Lord hounds podcast, as long as I have my say.

[00:14:46] The show that shall not be named.

[00:14:48] That's right.

[00:14:49] That, uh, yeah, that wasted Samuel L. Jackson.

[00:14:52] Um, not to mention, um, what's her face?

[00:14:55] Uh, what's her name from Amelia Clark.

[00:14:59] Um, yes, that's right.

[00:15:01] And Colby Smulders.

[00:15:02] Oh man.

[00:15:02] Now I'm man again.

[00:15:03] Okay.

[00:15:04] So, all right.

[00:15:09] John is going to, by the way, he's going to share, he's saving the rest of his thoughts

[00:15:14] for our wrap up episode.

[00:15:15] Um, we're also going to have in some form, we're going to have David and Mark participating.

[00:15:22] We're, and also a few more people from the Lord hounds network.

[00:15:25] So we're gonna, we're figuring that out and, uh, we'll get that to you next week.

[00:15:29] Totally awesome.

[00:15:31] Um, okay.

[00:15:44] With a little bit of a ceiling on it.

[00:15:45] The fate of the world wasn't going to suddenly hinge on a fight in the backyard of a house

[00:15:50] in New Jersey.

[00:15:52] It's my second favorite MCU TV show behind Loki.

[00:15:56] Hear, hear.

[00:15:57] It has a very real shot that the team of locked pond is delighting me across media for the

[00:16:02] next decade.

[00:16:03] And I'll be telling people this was always my favorite show.

[00:16:06] I learned new names like Jack Schaefer that I will actively seek out to give their next

[00:16:11] project a chance.

[00:16:12] That might be the highest and most meaningful vote of confidence I can give a TV show.

[00:16:17] I feel like I have to give it a 9.5 or 10 or 9.5 out of 10.

[00:16:23] I feel like it should have been a 10.

[00:16:26] It accomplished everything it set out to do.

[00:16:28] And I greatly enjoyed it, but his ceiling was probably always a 9.5 because of the limits

[00:16:34] of what they started with.

[00:16:35] That said, what I appreciated most is Agatha was a clear, cohesive and well executed vision.

[00:16:41] I don't know if this was all directly from Schaefer's head or more of a team, but

[00:16:47] everyone was definitely on the same page and it really showed opposite of feeling notes.

[00:16:54] Yeah.

[00:16:54] So first of all, I'm wondering what you mean and well by the limitations of what they

[00:17:00] started out with.

[00:17:01] For me, I okay.

[00:17:04] So this WandaVision and Loki are my top three.

[00:17:09] I have to, I think, give a little more perspective that does to settle for me to rank those three.

[00:17:16] Do you have rankings in your head at the moment of any of all of the shows, I guess?

[00:17:22] I do.

[00:17:25] And I'm torn between Loki and Agatha as taking the top spot.

[00:17:32] So I'll have to give that a little bit more thought.

[00:17:36] But they're definitely the top two shows for me.

[00:17:41] Yeah.

[00:17:43] Yeah.

[00:17:44] WandaVision, when I go, every time I go back, it makes me just like ugly cry, which is a

[00:17:49] good thing.

[00:17:49] No.

[00:17:50] And WandaVision was really good.

[00:17:52] I just, for me personally, the first two episodes were difficult because I'm not necessarily

[00:17:59] a fan of the aesthetic.

[00:18:01] So just.

[00:18:03] Classic TV.

[00:18:04] Yeah.

[00:18:04] So I had a hard time getting drawn into that.

[00:18:08] But by the end of episode, I think it was episode two, you know, I was like, okay, I got

[00:18:14] to see where this is headed.

[00:18:16] Mm hmm.

[00:18:17] Yeah.

[00:18:17] I can see why they released the, those episodes together when they started the show.

[00:18:23] But for me, for me, you know, I grew up watching the shows that that was based on because I

[00:18:30] am the Scarlet Witch guys.

[00:18:34] Applies clown makeup.

[00:18:35] Anyway.

[00:18:36] So yeah, for me that those were, it started on a high point and then it went through more

[00:18:41] high points and then it ended on a hard high point.

[00:18:43] And I could say the same about this show for me too.

[00:18:45] Yeah.

[00:18:46] No.

[00:18:47] Okay.

[00:18:48] Tima and Nicole.

[00:18:50] Hi.

[00:18:51] This is your niece, right?

[00:18:52] Yeah.

[00:18:53] Um, they say, they say hi there.

[00:18:58] We were watching the finale of Agatha all along and our immediate thoughts went to Nikki.

[00:19:02] Was he the child of Agatha and Rio?

[00:19:04] That's my question.

[00:19:05] Nikki himself talks about his parents using two different names.

[00:19:09] After Nikki finishes singing the ballad of the witch's road, he replies to an admirer

[00:19:13] that his mother needs him home.

[00:19:15] We think that he might be referring to Rio in this moment as he has always referred to

[00:19:19] Agatha as mama.

[00:19:21] Even in earlier episodes of the series in queer households, it would be common to refer

[00:19:25] to one parent as mother, mom, and another as the other as mama.

[00:19:30] Agatha looks deeply scarred when he says this as though she knows he is referring to Rio.

[00:19:36] Um, what do you think about that?

[00:19:38] I'll pause there.

[00:19:39] What do you think about that theory?

[00:19:41] I, I'm, I'm on board.

[00:19:45] Like when I first heard it, I didn't think about it, but you know, it didn't hit me.

[00:19:52] But when, you know, we, I talked to my niece Tima and her partner Nicole, you know, all the

[00:19:59] time about, you know, this show.

[00:20:03] So when we were talking about it and, and I think it was Nicole who brought it up, it

[00:20:10] just, I was like, oh, at a moment, like a light bulb went off on top of my head.

[00:20:16] Like, huh?

[00:20:17] Yeah.

[00:20:17] That really does vibe.

[00:20:21] So I can definitely see that.

[00:20:23] Hmm.

[00:20:24] So the question of who is the other parent, I am firmly leaning on Rio having some hand

[00:20:36] in Nikki's, um, becoming.

[00:20:39] Yeah.

[00:20:40] Yeah.

[00:20:41] I still have that.

[00:20:42] Like Agatha saying, I made you from scratch, no spell, no incantation.

[00:20:45] I made you from scratch.

[00:20:47] I'm still like, what does that mean?

[00:20:48] Right.

[00:20:49] Um, I mean, as far as like the mama mother thing, it could be just because also he's

[00:20:56] talking to someone else, but I like this interpretation because also it just feels like

[00:21:02] it feels right.

[00:21:03] That's the moment.

[00:21:04] The moment he says, my mother is waiting for me at home or whatever.

[00:21:08] Um, that's the moment.

[00:21:11] That's the moment when you, it almost feels like, well, first Agatha is like, oh, this

[00:21:16] is not going where I thought it was.

[00:21:17] You see that in her face.

[00:21:18] Yeah.

[00:21:18] Yeah.

[00:21:19] I think that's the moment where she realizes like, this is my last day with him.

[00:21:22] Yeah.

[00:21:23] It just feels right.

[00:21:25] But I don't know that he knows that, um, that it was his last day.

[00:21:30] Although yeah.

[00:21:31] When, when Rio shows up, he must know her, right?

[00:21:34] Because he's just like, he's like, hi, okay.

[00:21:37] We're going.

[00:21:37] Yeah.

[00:21:38] Right.

[00:21:39] With no fear.

[00:21:40] Um, okay.

[00:21:42] So Tima Nicole say when Rio comes to take Nikki in the night, he's not at all worried.

[00:21:46] Oh yeah.

[00:21:47] There we go.

[00:21:47] In fact, he goes to her without thinking about Agatha until Rio reminds him to say

[00:21:51] goodbye.

[00:21:52] He gives Agatha two kisses, making us think Rio meant give mama a kiss and one for me

[00:21:57] too.

[00:21:58] Makes me tear up.

[00:22:00] He takes Rio's hand with all the comfort of a kid who grew up with a separate with separated

[00:22:05] parents going to his other mother's house for her scheduled weekend for the last centuries.

[00:22:10] I added that part.

[00:22:11] Um, thanks for keeping us company throughout the show.

[00:22:14] Can't wait to hear you discuss the last episode.

[00:22:16] XO Tima Nicole.

[00:22:17] Well, thank you.

[00:22:18] Thank you.

[00:22:19] Thank you.

[00:22:19] Thank you guys.

[00:22:20] Yeah.

[00:22:20] I really that when he does show no fear of Rio, like, Oh, I know who this person is.

[00:22:31] And you know, there's nothing untowards here.

[00:22:35] You know what I mean?

[00:22:36] Yeah.

[00:22:36] There was no, in his eyes, there were no, in his face, there was no, like, who are you?

[00:22:42] Why are you staring at me?

[00:22:43] Why do you want me to come with you?

[00:22:44] It was just like, Hey, I haven't seen you in a little while.

[00:22:47] Hey, you know, and makes me buy into this theory.

[00:22:53] Yeah.

[00:22:55] Yeah.

[00:22:56] Yeah.

[00:22:56] No, I think your niece has been delivering excellent theories.

[00:23:00] They have.

[00:23:01] They have.

[00:23:02] They have.

[00:23:03] If they want to send in more for our next show.

[00:23:05] Yeah.

[00:23:08] And I'm so glad I get to share this.

[00:23:10] This part of my blurred them with her.

[00:23:13] Yeah.

[00:23:14] I'm so glad that you have that with someone in your family.

[00:23:16] Yeah.

[00:23:16] That's, that's really cool.

[00:23:18] With both of them, actually.

[00:23:19] So this is, this is lovely.

[00:23:20] Um, so Ken W just wow.

[00:23:25] The guys are so sick of it all.

[00:23:27] There we go.

[00:23:29] Brilliant, undeniable, brilliant, unbelievable TV, amazing characters feeling for them in

[00:23:35] that moment.

[00:23:36] And then realizing they're monsters.

[00:23:38] Jack Schaefer is a genius.

[00:23:40] She gets characters.

[00:23:41] Thank you for making my rewatching so much better after listening to the PC.

[00:23:47] Love Jean.

[00:23:48] I guess.

[00:23:48] Yeah.

[00:23:49] Love Jean and Alicia's take on each episode and bring in different voices to add to the

[00:23:54] pod.

[00:23:55] Jean, lore of comics is quality and not afraid to voice his opinion on all things MCU.

[00:24:01] Keep up the great work of them.

[00:24:03] P.S.

[00:24:04] Alicia.

[00:24:05] Just finished shift and on to shift three in pod listening.

[00:24:09] Next up, dust.

[00:24:11] Very slow reader is me.

[00:24:13] Thanks, Ken.

[00:24:14] Yeah.

[00:24:14] Well, thank you, Ken, for the lovely words.

[00:24:17] Appreciate that.

[00:24:18] Yeah.

[00:24:19] And for anyone who doesn't know what he means at the end, shift is the second book in the

[00:24:23] dust is the third book.

[00:24:25] And we broke all these down in the wool shift dust book club.

[00:24:29] So that's, that's a thing.

[00:24:31] I'm glad to hear that you're catching up, Ken.

[00:24:33] If you know, if you don't finish by the new season, you don't have to worry about it because

[00:24:38] the new season of the second season of silo, which starts in like a week almost is yeah.

[00:24:46] That's based on the second half of the first book.

[00:24:48] Well, for anyone who's wondering, but yeah, that'll be my next big thing after now.

[00:24:53] I'm Agatha is done taking over my life silos starting to take over my life and Dune.

[00:25:00] Okay.

[00:25:01] So we have an email from Lise who says, dear Lise and Jean, this is Lise writing in some

[00:25:06] feedback for the first time.

[00:25:08] Yay.

[00:25:08] Thank you, Lise.

[00:25:09] Thank you.

[00:25:10] She says, thanks for all your amazing coverage.

[00:25:12] I'm very much looking forward to listening to your thoughts on the final two episodes.

[00:25:16] I got really emotional during both episodes and think they did a fantastic job with the

[00:25:20] overall series.

[00:25:21] There were so many surprises and twists, e.g. the witch's road being an invention by Agatha

[00:25:26] and Nicholas to trick other witches.

[00:25:27] Didn't see that one coming.

[00:25:29] I guess Nicholas dying during childhood as a departure from the comics.

[00:25:33] Okay.

[00:25:34] So just pausing there.

[00:25:36] We never see Nicholas as a child in the comics.

[00:25:39] Right.

[00:25:39] We only see him as an adult.

[00:25:41] Yeah.

[00:25:41] We don't really get his origin story at all.

[00:25:44] Just Agatha.

[00:25:45] She's an old woman.

[00:25:47] When we meet her in the comics, she's been alive for centuries.

[00:25:49] And sometimes we get views of her past like Salem.

[00:25:53] But we never see the origin of her son where he came from.

[00:25:58] So yeah.

[00:25:58] So definitely a departure, but it's so most of it is a departure from the comics.

[00:26:04] So Lise says, I definitely have to rewatch the whole series now and observe Agatha's

[00:26:08] reaction to everything that's happened.

[00:26:10] Yeah.

[00:26:10] This is definitely a high rewatch value series.

[00:26:12] Um, Lisa, it's probably one of my favorite moments was when Agatha literally embraced

[00:26:17] death in the penultimate episode.

[00:26:19] Also interesting.

[00:26:20] Seems she can indeed control her powers to let Billy live instead of draining all his

[00:26:25] power.

[00:26:25] Or maybe that's also due to Billy's powers.

[00:26:28] Um, pausing here.

[00:26:29] Yeah.

[00:26:30] My interpretation, as I said yesterday is that, I mean, it's, she, she struggled with it.

[00:26:36] You saw her in the moment.

[00:26:37] She's like, Oh, you know, it was hard for her to stop.

[00:26:40] But if there's one, if there's one person in the world, she could stop for other than

[00:26:46] Nikki, if you were alive, but you know, given that he's not, it's Billy.

[00:26:50] Yeah.

[00:26:50] And also because Billy had told her right before this, that he believed in her and showed trust

[00:26:54] in her.

[00:26:55] And you know, that was important to her own self worth to prove that that was warranted

[00:27:02] to prove that, you know, as she keeps saying in her darkest moments, I can be good.

[00:27:07] And that doesn't mean that she's automatically good.

[00:27:09] It's like a whole journey and she's like just taken the first step.

[00:27:14] So, um, these finishes.

[00:27:16] I also, I also wondered if Agatha becoming the sidekick ghost companion to Wiccan is a

[00:27:20] thing in the comics, really looking forward to seeing that duo again, an upcoming MCU

[00:27:24] projects.

[00:27:25] Thanks again for all the work and soul you put into your podcast, best please.

[00:27:28] And, um, Agatha is the ghost sidekick of Wanda in the comments.

[00:27:35] Yeah.

[00:27:36] That this is loosely based on.

[00:27:38] So this is, but she is involved in the whole thing about, uh, Billy and Tommy being born

[00:27:46] and dissolving and reincarnating.

[00:27:50] Reanimating.

[00:27:51] And however we want to call it.

[00:27:53] But she's not.

[00:27:54] Yeah.

[00:27:54] But when it comes to, she's the ghost companion of Wanda and spoiler for the witch's road series

[00:27:59] of the comics.

[00:28:00] Um, what she gets at the end of that road, which is very real in the comics is she gets

[00:28:05] her life back.

[00:28:06] So let's, let's pick up with, we're going to pick up with Rebecca reading the patterns

[00:28:11] email right after a quick break.

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[00:29:37] Killing witches to both try to appease Ryo and let her keep Nikki longer,

[00:29:41] and possibly if she got lucky to pull a witch with enough healing powers that might allow her to save Nikki.

[00:29:47] But not wanting people to know that means she feels guilty for futilely spending the little time she had with Nikki in this way,

[00:29:54] and she doesn't want anyone to know her vulnerability either.

[00:29:57] I agree with that.

[00:29:59] Good point.

[00:30:01] Maybe even clearer was that she isn't ready to face Nikki because she would feel even more guilty about continuing to kill witches

[00:30:07] through the use of the ballad after Nikki was gone.

[00:30:11] She could not find the same excuse for doing it to save Nikki any longer.

[00:30:15] Maybe she just didn't know what else to do with herself at that point, and it was the only way of hanging on to him.

[00:30:22] I think she is afraid he would condemn her for that.

[00:30:25] A strong thought I had that this ending seems like it's setting up for another season of Agatha all along.

[00:30:32] We hope so.

[00:30:34] Something.

[00:30:36] Not so much the part about Agatha going with Billy to find Tommy because that could be included in the Vision show.

[00:30:42] But the unresolved aspects of Agatha and Rio's story feels like it needs more.

[00:30:47] We didn't get to see the history to show why Rio would give Agatha more time with Nikki.

[00:30:52] Also, Rio did nothing wrong, and I believe it is Agatha's unwillingness to forgive herself and face Nikki that keeps her blaming Rio.

[00:31:00] I agree.

[00:31:01] It doesn't feel like the ending of a character arc for Agatha.

[00:31:06] Totally agree with that.

[00:31:08] I heard a rumor that two endings were filmed, and I wondered if the other one could have been getting a little more Agatha-Rio history.

[00:31:16] And Agatha finding forgiveness and joining Rio fully, not hiding from her as a ghost.

[00:31:22] I wonder if something like that would have been used if they thought there would not be a second season.

[00:31:28] What do you both think of whether there could be one more?

[00:31:31] Rebecca.

[00:31:34] So I do know some partial answers to these questions from interviews that Jack Schafer has given since the finale.

[00:31:41] And one thing is I know that the alternative ending is what it's one they decided against in the alternate.

[00:31:48] They did have an alternative ending where the entire coven is together in a diner at the end.

[00:31:53] And they really considered bringing them all back to life and giving that happy ending, and then they decided that might cheapen their journey.

[00:32:01] So that was the alternative ending, and I don't know that they would have done it if they didn't get more, but I don't know.

[00:32:09] We'll see.

[00:32:10] In terms of season two possibilities, there was, since we recorded yesterday even, there is a piece of news leaked that has people hopeful, but I also think it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[00:32:22] And the piece of news is that Agatha all along has been submitted as a comedy series for the Emmys instead of a limited series, which could just mean it's a comedy series, and that makes sense.

[00:32:35] But the fact that it's usually shows like Shogun was submitted as a drama series instead of a limited series, and then we got the season two announcement.

[00:32:47] So people are hoping that this means the same for Agatha.

[00:32:51] We'll see.

[00:32:53] I mean, that would be great.

[00:32:55] You know, that would be great.

[00:32:57] And again, I'm just happy that the show was so good that it has to force the studio to rethink their plans.

[00:33:07] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:33:08] Yeah, and as far as Agatha and Rio's backstory, we have this from, I was talking in the last episode about the interview that she did with the rep, and you'll find a link in that last episode.

[00:33:21] What she said to the rep about that is we talked about it a lot, about their origin story, Agatha and Rio.

[00:33:28] We talked about what was their meet-cute over corpses, I imagine.

[00:33:31] And of course, Jen did have a line like that.

[00:33:34] That was our ideation process.

[00:33:36] We never wrote it on the page, but we broke it out in the room of them seeing each other over bodies, and that would grow.

[00:33:42] And we thought about, you know, was death there when she killed her original coven?

[00:33:47] Then, how did their love affair evolve?

[00:33:50] We even went down a road of like, they live together in a sweet little cottage.

[00:33:54] We talked about it a lot because we believed in them.

[00:33:57] There was a time when they were lovers and partners.

[00:34:00] We felt that going down that path narratively would have been too much of a detour because what we really wanted to focus on was the Nikki story.

[00:34:08] So I feel that that story of them before Nikki simmers under the surface.

[00:34:13] I like to think that that's why people feel connected to them.

[00:34:17] Because they can feel that essence.

[00:34:19] You know, with this corner of the MCU, as I say all the time, it is non-linear.

[00:34:23] I believe that there are chapters that we can visit.

[00:34:26] So it's a story for another day.

[00:34:29] So fingers crossed.

[00:34:31] Fingers, toes, eyes.

[00:34:33] All crossed.

[00:34:35] Yes.

[00:34:38] I feel like she knows things that she can't say.

[00:34:41] She can't say, yeah.

[00:34:42] Yeah.

[00:34:43] Yeah.

[00:34:43] It's all very cryptic and very cowed.

[00:34:46] And yeah.

[00:34:47] But the fact that she's not saying like, hope you enjoyed it.

[00:34:50] That's the end.

[00:34:50] Yes.

[00:34:51] Yes.

[00:34:51] There's no definitive.

[00:34:53] There hasn't been a definitive no.

[00:34:55] Right.

[00:34:56] Not happening.

[00:34:57] Yeah.

[00:34:57] There's lots of room for hope.

[00:34:59] Keep hope alive.

[00:35:02] Stephen H writes, who needs Mephisto, Man-Thing, or big Marvel finishes when you have Arby Plaza as death?

[00:35:11] Good point.

[00:35:14] And TechFunkDub says, I feel like this story is going to have to be continued in a Young Avengers something or another.

[00:35:25] Yeah.

[00:35:26] We need a, yeah.

[00:35:27] They're setting up the Young Avengers thing.

[00:35:28] Just announce it already.

[00:35:29] Yeah, they've been doing it.

[00:35:30] We've already introduced most of the cast.

[00:35:32] Exactly.

[00:35:32] They've been doing it.

[00:35:33] So let's just get on with it.

[00:35:35] Mm-hmm.

[00:35:38] So Marilyn, Marilyn Arpikila, she is, you know, very well steeped in witchcraft knowledge.

[00:35:45] She and I recently put out a special episode for subscribers in both the Lorehounds and Woolship Dust Book Club feeds all about like the origin of the idea of witches, things like that.

[00:35:56] So she was initially very reluctant to watch this show until we all were kind of like, this is great.

[00:36:03] You have to watch it.

[00:36:04] And so she caught up.

[00:36:08] The first two episodes, the first episode, she's like, I don't know about this.

[00:36:11] And then the second episode, she's like, okay, now I'm starting to see where this is going.

[00:36:15] And we have her thoughts that she shared with us as she went because, yeah, she always has a lot of insight into these things.

[00:36:23] So we're going to take turns talking through them after her feedback for the different episodes.

[00:36:27] Sounds good.

[00:36:28] So after episode three.

[00:36:33] Hi, Marilyn.

[00:36:36] Forgot to say that L-wise was a very important fish here in Maine.

[00:36:40] They are andronomous, which means they are born in fresh water, swim to the sea, and then come back to the fresh water as adults to spawn and reproduce.

[00:36:47] The return of the L-wise each year is a very important event, both to the ecological system of rivers and lakes and streams, but also the hearts and spares of the Wabanaki and Mainers who watch them every year.

[00:37:02] So possibly a connection with all that salt water that suddenly appeared.

[00:37:07] Yeah, that's in reference to the water trial, Jen's trial.

[00:37:13] Yeah.

[00:37:13] Okay.

[00:37:14] Good point.

[00:37:14] Good point.

[00:37:16] After episode four, she said, I find it ironic that spells are done in Latin considering how much the Catholic Church hated witchcraft.

[00:37:24] Did you know that the word hocus pocus was a mangled version of hoc escorpus meum, this is my body, from the Latin mass?

[00:37:32] No, I did not know that, actually.

[00:37:34] Interesting that they switched from Mrs. Heart to Black Heart, apparently.

[00:37:37] How in the world can you be a green witch with a black heart?

[00:37:40] Yeah, that was Agatha reaching, reaching hard.

[00:37:45] But I guess it was, it is interesting that in WandaVision, because the first episodes are in black and white, we have, and when they're in the hex and she's known as Mrs. Heart, rather than Sharon Davis, her real name,

[00:37:59] Wanda and Vision have a black heart on the calendar and they don't know what it's about.

[00:38:05] And then they're like, oh, it must be that the hearts are coming for dinner.

[00:38:09] Yeah.

[00:38:10] Yeah, but they use black heart now several ways.

[00:38:14] So they have, obviously, Rio talking about her black heart that beats for you.

[00:38:19] Boyfriend.

[00:38:20] Billy's boyf said to him, gave him a black heart emoji.

[00:38:24] So yeah, it's interesting how that's been used.

[00:38:27] So Marilyn continues, finally, someone asked the question, what was her intention?

[00:38:31] This is the most important question to ask before crafting any sort of spell or ritual, not to mention important question to ask for one's life in general.

[00:38:39] Good point.

[00:38:41] I was thrilled to have them mention a root worker.

[00:38:44] Tracy Dion has written an excellent young adult book which involves root work.

[00:38:49] It's the first in a series and has some amazing twists to it.

[00:38:52] Legend Born is the first one, followed by Blood Marked.

[00:38:55] And then, yeah, she asked you, Jean, if you were familiar with it.

[00:38:59] And I'm not, and I'm definitely going to order it.

[00:39:02] So I'll keep everyone abreast of my progress with that one.

[00:39:07] Cool.

[00:39:08] And she says, I'm still slowly working my way through the pod for the episode and just came to the point where you're talking about other witches having amulets and Rio having a dagger.

[00:39:16] I see that as circle equals female and line equals male.

[00:39:20] So I think they're definitely giving Rio a strong male vibe, which tracks with what we were saying about her being the potential, quote unquote.

[00:39:29] Quote, father, and just the fact that death can change form and things like that.

[00:39:33] And she says, and I love the quote, sad is better than angry.

[00:39:36] Ain't that the truth?

[00:39:37] I just wish more people would know it.

[00:39:39] Yeah, that is a great quote, actually.

[00:39:42] Yeah.

[00:39:43] That is a beautiful quote.

[00:39:46] After episode five, I loved all the different objections to using brooms.

[00:39:52] Lots of fun.

[00:39:53] Also, try praying to the divine mother, kiddo.

[00:39:57] I think Agatha should be listening to her own instructions there.

[00:40:00] Oh, hear, hear.

[00:40:01] I remember having fun with a Ouija board in my youth.

[00:40:05] And at Jean-G, she's talking about me.

[00:40:08] Do you think we could say Mrs. Hart did come back?

[00:40:11] Sorter.

[00:40:13] Not Alice.

[00:40:14] Having your mom say to you, I should have killed you at birth.

[00:40:18] Really could mess up your whole being, couldn't it?

[00:40:21] Exhibit A being Agatha herself.

[00:40:26] Yeah, I answered on the Discord to this question about Mrs. Hart.

[00:40:33] And no, it wasn't her.

[00:40:36] It was Agatha faking.

[00:40:39] Yeah, it wasn't our Mrs. Hart.

[00:40:41] Agatha mocking her, mocking her.

[00:40:42] It wasn't our Sharon, no.

[00:40:44] Sharon was just worried about the upholstery, okay?

[00:40:47] Oh my gosh.

[00:40:50] Okay, after episode seven, Marilyn says,

[00:40:53] this has to be my favorite episode,

[00:40:56] probably in part because I'm so familiar with Tarot.

[00:40:59] But also, I think Lilia is the nicest of all the characters

[00:41:02] and an intuitive like myself.

[00:41:04] It's so great to finally understand what she's going through.

[00:41:08] The flow of time is an illusion.

[00:41:10] How do you deal with that?

[00:41:11] I never saw her use her abilities to hurt anyone,

[00:41:14] but only to try and find answers

[00:41:17] or at least make a living.

[00:41:19] Fun to see Agatha as the Wicked Witch of the West

[00:41:21] and Lilia as Glinda.

[00:41:23] Lilia has so many statements of wisdom for us in this episode.

[00:41:27] A witch requires a coven.

[00:41:29] Death comes for us all.

[00:41:30] It is what we have in common.

[00:41:32] I hope you will join me

[00:41:33] because you are my sister in the craft.

[00:41:36] Interesting twist that Rio is death.

[00:41:38] I'll be glad to see how they work that out.

[00:41:40] The castle is so good.

[00:41:42] The visuals, the devices, everything set up.

[00:41:45] And I particularly like the mingled reincarnations,

[00:41:48] seeing the young Lilia again,

[00:41:51] beginning for the first time as always.

[00:41:53] And finally, a song that I know.

[00:41:56] Time in a Bottle was one of my favorite songs in pop culture.

[00:41:59] And I adored the line,

[00:42:01] we can be culturally offended later.

[00:42:03] They certainly studied up on their tarot,

[00:42:05] and it's lovely to see them using the classic Ryder weight deck from 1909.

[00:42:10] Of course, it should have been called the weight Smith deck

[00:42:13] since Pamela Coleman Smith did all of the illustrations.

[00:42:17] Really cannot wait for the finale.

[00:42:19] So yeah, interesting.

[00:42:20] And they are also selling,

[00:42:22] they made some modifications to it,

[00:42:24] I suppose,

[00:42:25] to make it,

[00:42:25] apparently to make it,

[00:42:26] you know,

[00:42:27] track with the characters.

[00:42:28] Right.

[00:42:29] But they also recreated those moments for each of the characters

[00:42:32] to look like the cards.

[00:42:34] Yes, yes.

[00:42:35] They are going to,

[00:42:36] they're selling the deck and an instruction book.

[00:42:39] I think pre-orders are open now.

[00:42:42] But yeah,

[00:42:42] they like,

[00:42:43] obviously you can tell,

[00:42:44] they must not have realized how popular this is going to be.

[00:42:47] Or just,

[00:42:47] I don't understand why in general,

[00:42:49] why they don't have merchandise ready as a show is airing.

[00:42:53] Because,

[00:42:54] you know,

[00:42:54] people want to buy that stuff.

[00:42:57] Right.

[00:42:57] Right.

[00:42:58] Right.

[00:43:00] So she continues.

[00:43:03] In the podcast episode,

[00:43:05] David commented on the increase of witchiness in the zeitgeist this year.

[00:43:09] Just today,

[00:43:10] I happened to run into a colleague from college that I retired,

[00:43:14] from the college that I retired from five years ago.

[00:43:16] He said that they missed my witchcraft classes course because there was a sudden uptick in interest.

[00:43:22] Huh?

[00:43:22] He has 126 students in his class on ancient witchcraft.

[00:43:26] He's a classic scholar.

[00:43:28] It had to turn away almost that many people.

[00:43:31] Wow.

[00:43:32] This is a school that formerly would have classes capped at 70 or 80 maximum and was far more likely to have five or 15 students or even fewer.

[00:43:43] Indeed,

[00:43:44] indeed,

[00:43:44] quite the scene change.

[00:43:45] Also,

[00:43:46] the only possible,

[00:43:47] possibly tentative historical connection I can think of between Abigail Adams and witchcraft is the fact that she was a strong proponent of vaccination against smallpox and had her entire family vaccinated.

[00:44:00] This was viewed with great suspicion at the time as it was a fairly new medical treatment.

[00:44:06] The associations with witches healing and doing harm instead of doing good might line up.

[00:44:11] What do you think?

[00:44:13] Yeah,

[00:44:14] I think,

[00:44:15] so we had,

[00:44:17] we had pointed out,

[00:44:19] I think by Brian that she was a feminist.

[00:44:22] We have pointed out here that she was a,

[00:44:25] you know,

[00:44:25] progressive in terms of public health.

[00:44:27] And yeah,

[00:44:28] I can definitely see why.

[00:44:30] Definitely.

[00:44:31] What leads to declarations of witchcraft.

[00:44:34] Not that that actually happened during our lifetime.

[00:44:36] Late 18th,

[00:44:37] early 19th century.

[00:44:39] Yeah,

[00:44:40] definitely.

[00:44:41] It's still happening in this 21st century.

[00:44:44] Yeah.

[00:44:44] So amazing that so many students were interested in taking this,

[00:44:52] the class in witchcraft.

[00:44:54] Yeah.

[00:44:54] Which is something that,

[00:44:56] you know,

[00:44:56] that's really,

[00:44:57] huh.

[00:44:59] It's interesting.

[00:44:59] There's such,

[00:45:00] we see so many witches in pop culture this year,

[00:45:03] especially.

[00:45:04] And I guess of course that fuels people being more interested in learning more,

[00:45:08] but yeah,

[00:45:09] it's just interesting that that's happening all at once right now.

[00:45:11] Or maybe people looking for different belief systems.

[00:45:15] Yeah.

[00:45:15] Different way of approaching things.

[00:45:18] So after the finale,

[00:45:20] Marilyn said,

[00:45:21] I don't know.

[00:45:21] I really don't know what to think.

[00:45:23] I think it's because.

[00:45:24] Oh,

[00:45:24] we just keep that seven episode seven.

[00:45:28] Hi.

[00:45:29] No,

[00:45:29] she says,

[00:45:29] I think it's because I just don't have much affection for the wicked hero trope.

[00:45:33] It was a good storyline.

[00:45:34] As far as it went,

[00:45:35] knowing that Billium is an abomination to Rio because Rio is exercising.

[00:45:39] Her role is death made a lot of sense.

[00:45:41] I didn't get her exit tearing through the cloth though.

[00:45:44] It just seems strange.

[00:45:45] Yeah.

[00:45:46] Well,

[00:45:46] I mean,

[00:45:46] I guess they're using the practical effects to show that she can cut through Billy's fake reality.

[00:45:52] Yeah.

[00:45:53] And then coming out into that sterile environment of the quote unquote morgue was just such a shocking contrast to everything that went before.

[00:46:01] Yeah.

[00:46:01] That was,

[00:46:01] um,

[00:46:02] we talked about that more yesterday,

[00:46:03] but that was part of the point is that like Billy's kind of losing his puff,

[00:46:07] you know,

[00:46:08] he's like sick of this whole road thing and it's not being as creative.

[00:46:12] And yeah,

[00:46:13] it is more stark.

[00:46:14] Um,

[00:46:15] she says,

[00:46:16] I like the way they had Agatha winning the earth trial,

[00:46:19] not once,

[00:46:19] but twice in that she finally overcame her usual pattern of deceiving and using other people's lives to make her own continue.

[00:46:26] That whole part was very moving to me.

[00:46:28] And Billy sure had a good superhero entrance.

[00:46:31] Yeah.

[00:46:31] He really does look so much older than he did in episode one.

[00:46:35] I'm still not sure how to understand the notion that it was all built on Billy's imagination.

[00:46:40] That may have been the case,

[00:46:42] but it wasn't his imagination that people died.

[00:46:44] And I don't think that he had any intention of causing any of it.

[00:46:48] No,

[00:46:48] I don't think he had intention of causing it.

[00:46:51] Um,

[00:46:52] it was just sort of an accidental side effect of him setting,

[00:46:57] you know,

[00:46:57] I called it,

[00:46:58] um,

[00:46:58] like designing a game in our episode we recorded yesterday.

[00:47:03] And,

[00:47:03] um,

[00:47:03] right.

[00:47:04] Right.

[00:47:04] And I think,

[00:47:05] you know,

[00:47:05] he set the rules for the game subconsciously,

[00:47:09] definitely,

[00:47:10] by accident because it's,

[00:47:11] it's chaos magic.

[00:47:12] If he's using the same as his mother,

[00:47:14] even though it's blue,

[00:47:15] well,

[00:47:15] we'll figure that out later.

[00:47:17] Um,

[00:47:18] but no,

[00:47:18] I don't think he had the intention,

[00:47:19] but I think once like the rules were set,

[00:47:22] they had unintended consequences.

[00:47:25] Uh,

[00:47:26] and she says,

[00:47:26] well,

[00:47:26] my first question is where lemons so freely available in the 1750s on the

[00:47:30] continents of North America,

[00:47:32] or did she use her magic to obtain one?

[00:47:35] Let's go with that.

[00:47:36] Yeah.

[00:47:36] It was a magical loving.

[00:47:39] Yeah.

[00:47:39] That was a pretty powerful incantation to birth such a big baby.

[00:47:43] Yeah.

[00:47:43] We just,

[00:47:44] I kind of have to squint because I understand why they're not going to use an

[00:47:47] actual newborn.

[00:47:50] The episode is just such a different tone in this period,

[00:47:53] though.

[00:47:54] They are pulling a little bit on the folk tale of escaping death,

[00:47:57] but in the folk tales,

[00:47:58] it's the folks that win outsmarting death.

[00:48:00] I really have a hard time believing that Agatha doesn't feel Nikki's death when

[00:48:05] he left her.

[00:48:06] It's very clever to use costume changes to show the passage of time,

[00:48:10] but I just found the whole thing very distressing.

[00:48:12] The whole idea of witchcraft being nothing but power over and murdering for

[00:48:16] your own ends is a real violation of what it means to people who live,

[00:48:19] who practice it today.

[00:48:21] And a reinforcement of all the tired old stereotypes.

[00:48:24] And I have to say,

[00:48:25] I think that that is intentionally what they've been doing with Agatha's

[00:48:29] character.

[00:48:29] Yes.

[00:48:30] Yes.

[00:48:31] I think that is why,

[00:48:32] yeah.

[00:48:33] It's not a flaw in the story.

[00:48:35] It's the point of the story to show the depths that she was,

[00:48:39] that she went to because she's not a hero.

[00:48:42] Right.

[00:48:43] This is why every time she approaches another witch,

[00:48:45] they're like Agatha Harkness.

[00:48:46] No,

[00:48:47] you were like the bad one.

[00:48:48] You are the reason.

[00:48:49] I think Lily even says at some point,

[00:48:51] you're the reason that they tell horrible stories about me,

[00:48:53] which is like you.

[00:48:54] Yeah.

[00:48:55] Yeah.

[00:48:55] About us.

[00:48:57] So Marilyn continues.

[00:48:59] So the ballad was a con for gullible witches.

[00:49:01] Agatha used Billy so that she could kill more witches,

[00:49:04] which is a horrible thing.

[00:49:06] But Billy made the road with his magical power and saved Jen.

[00:49:09] At least Billy says he won't get used to witches killing other witches.

[00:49:12] And I'm not really sure how I feel about him joining her as a team to go out and find Tommy.

[00:49:17] It just seems so contradictory to how he feels about Agatha.

[00:49:21] I'm very glad that Jen survived and would love to see what she decides to do with her power now that it is restored to her,

[00:49:27] or now that she has realized it was never taken away,

[00:49:30] just blocked.

[00:49:31] Even given her grief over losing Nikki,

[00:49:33] I just cannot see Agatha as anything other than a pretty despicable person teaching her child that killing others,

[00:49:40] which is in this case,

[00:49:41] is fine for the sake of your own aggrandizement.

[00:49:46] Sorry to be such a downer about it.

[00:49:48] It is kind of where I started out after seeing the first episode and deciding that I didn't want to see the rest of it,

[00:49:55] but I enjoyed the middle part so much.

[00:49:56] I think it was because they did form a coven,

[00:49:58] a sisterhood,

[00:49:59] and they did help each other out.

[00:50:01] Nothing to be sorry about.

[00:50:03] Yeah.

[00:50:04] And I think we're meant to see Agatha as a despicable person.

[00:50:07] Yes.

[00:50:07] Yes.

[00:50:08] That's exactly what I was going to say.

[00:50:10] I don't,

[00:50:10] I think that the show is,

[00:50:13] is not like David pointed out.

[00:50:17] He was expecting a redemption arc,

[00:50:19] a redemption story.

[00:50:20] There's no redemption for her because she is a bad person.

[00:50:26] Through and through.

[00:50:27] For whatever reason,

[00:50:28] even though she came from a place of,

[00:50:30] yeah.

[00:50:30] For whatever reason,

[00:50:32] she is a bad person.

[00:50:35] She cares very little about other people,

[00:50:39] and she's willing to do whatever she wants to do without regards to the consequences of her actions.

[00:50:46] To other people.

[00:50:48] So,

[00:50:49] I don't,

[00:50:50] I don't think there's anything wrong with what Marilyn is saying.

[00:50:57] I think that is,

[00:50:58] that is the point of the show.

[00:51:03] you know,

[00:51:04] and as far as Billy and her teaming up,

[00:51:07] I think this is much more of a conscious decision of Billy.

[00:51:12] Um,

[00:51:16] because he,

[00:51:16] he's going in with eyes wide open.

[00:51:19] Mm-hmm.

[00:51:20] And he's going to use whoever,

[00:51:22] whatever,

[00:51:23] um,

[00:51:24] is available to him to try to find his family.

[00:51:27] Mm-hmm.

[00:51:29] Knowing who she is,

[00:51:31] and understanding that he won't let her compromise his moral,

[00:51:38] um,

[00:51:38] standards.

[00:51:39] Mm-hmm.

[00:51:40] And so,

[00:51:41] I think the team up is,

[00:51:43] yeah,

[00:51:44] it is a team up,

[00:51:45] but it's really something that's on Billy's terms,

[00:51:49] and not something that he is,

[00:51:51] you know,

[00:51:53] shy,

[00:51:54] or he is,

[00:51:56] in some way,

[00:51:57] you know,

[00:51:58] not understanding who the person,

[00:52:01] who this ghost is.

[00:52:03] Right.

[00:52:03] I think I would have a problem with it if it was positive,

[00:52:05] like,

[00:52:06] he doesn't know who she is.

[00:52:07] Like,

[00:52:08] he's still,

[00:52:08] you know,

[00:52:09] pie in the sky,

[00:52:10] Agatha's a great person,

[00:52:12] and she's going to help me because she,

[00:52:13] because she is a wonderful human being,

[00:52:16] or a wonderful ghost.

[00:52:17] You know what I mean?

[00:52:18] Mm-hmm.

[00:52:18] And I don't think that's what we have right now.

[00:52:20] No.

[00:52:21] But I do,

[00:52:22] it makes me like Billy more as a character,

[00:52:24] the fact that he still,

[00:52:27] he,

[00:52:27] he,

[00:52:27] he's paying attention to her,

[00:52:29] like Rio said.

[00:52:30] She was watching her,

[00:52:30] and he sees,

[00:52:31] there's goodness in there.

[00:52:32] And of course,

[00:52:33] he,

[00:52:33] she shows it to Billy more than anyone else,

[00:52:35] because he's the one she's always trying to protect in this,

[00:52:37] in this story.

[00:52:39] Right.

[00:52:39] But I have to say for myself,

[00:52:41] when I seem to be defending Agatha,

[00:52:43] I am not in any way saying that she's not a bad person.

[00:52:50] She's definitely done a lot of very,

[00:52:52] very,

[00:52:52] very bad things.

[00:52:53] Um,

[00:52:54] I keep calling her a serial killer cause she is,

[00:52:56] but I,

[00:52:58] in general,

[00:52:58] what I,

[00:52:59] I think that our world would be a better place.

[00:53:03] If we could look at people who were doing bad things and not say like,

[00:53:08] Oh,

[00:53:08] that's okay that you did that.

[00:53:10] And you know,

[00:53:10] that you're there.

[00:53:12] We have to say,

[00:53:13] yes,

[00:53:14] they're,

[00:53:14] they're doing something wrong.

[00:53:15] But if we take a beat to look at,

[00:53:19] um,

[00:53:19] why they're doing it,

[00:53:20] even if,

[00:53:21] you know,

[00:53:21] that doesn't excuse their behavior,

[00:53:23] but if we can understand them a little better,

[00:53:25] then I feel like the world might be a better place.

[00:53:28] If we,

[00:53:29] if we as humans were better at doing that.

[00:53:31] So that's why I,

[00:53:32] you know,

[00:53:33] I do.

[00:53:34] Marilyn's always like,

[00:53:35] why do you like this dark stuff?

[00:53:36] You know?

[00:53:37] And I think that's what I,

[00:53:39] what I like is when it's well-written dark stuff where it's,

[00:53:43] um,

[00:53:44] where the writers,

[00:53:45] you can see that they are looking at like,

[00:53:47] well,

[00:53:47] let's also like,

[00:53:48] we have a villain here and we're not going to say she's not a

[00:53:51] villain because she does villainous stuff.

[00:53:53] Um,

[00:53:54] but let's look at how she became that villain.

[00:53:56] And maybe if we think more about that,

[00:53:58] we can help guide other people away from villainy in the real world.

[00:54:03] Right.

[00:54:03] Right.

[00:54:05] All right.

[00:54:06] Well,

[00:54:06] we're going to get back with our last batch of feedback after another quick

[00:54:10] break.

[00:54:11] Down,

[00:54:12] down,

[00:54:13] down,

[00:54:13] down the road,

[00:54:14] down,

[00:54:15] the witch's road.

[00:54:17] And this is from Maureen D.

[00:54:20] A few wizard of last things.

[00:54:23] Agatha is the wicked witch of Westview and Billy goodwish in Eastview.

[00:54:28] Also,

[00:54:29] when Agatha comes outside from the basement door,

[00:54:32] reminds me of the door in Kansas where the family hides from the tornado.

[00:54:36] Yeah.

[00:54:37] Yeah.

[00:54:37] Well,

[00:54:38] it was also a wicked witch in the East in the movie,

[00:54:40] at least.

[00:54:41] Cause she gets the house landed on her.

[00:54:42] Yes.

[00:54:43] Where is Glinda from?

[00:54:44] Glinda's from,

[00:54:45] is she from the North?

[00:54:46] I feel like.

[00:54:47] I don't remember.

[00:54:49] Um,

[00:54:50] yeah,

[00:54:50] she's a good witch of the North.

[00:54:51] Yeah.

[00:54:52] Okay.

[00:54:53] But yeah,

[00:54:54] no point taken point taken.

[00:54:57] He should have been in the Glinda costume.

[00:54:58] He was in Maleficent,

[00:54:59] but I guess he was doing villainous things.

[00:55:02] Yeah.

[00:55:02] He was killing people accidentally.

[00:55:04] Accidentally,

[00:55:05] but still,

[00:55:06] the witch's road song turned out to be so much more than just a title frame for

[00:55:11] the show.

[00:55:12] Agatha story of what she did to her covens is a dark one.

[00:55:16] Perhaps why she loved death.

[00:55:18] But as ghosts,

[00:55:19] but as a ghost,

[00:55:20] she does not truly embrace death.

[00:55:22] The last two episodes worked as a resolution to the series,

[00:55:26] but I was more awed by episode seven.

[00:55:28] I had guessed it was Billy all along.

[00:55:30] So it was more of a confirmation than a while for me.

[00:55:33] Yeah.

[00:55:34] Um,

[00:55:35] I didn't,

[00:55:36] I was still up until that moment.

[00:55:39] I was still not sure that it would have been,

[00:55:43] it would have been Billy.

[00:55:45] Yeah.

[00:55:45] I wasn't a hundred percent sure,

[00:55:47] but even suspecting that,

[00:55:49] or,

[00:55:49] you know,

[00:55:50] it's still,

[00:55:51] it's not about the revelation.

[00:55:52] It's about how they pull off the revelation.

[00:55:55] And for me,

[00:55:55] that worked.

[00:55:57] P.S.

[00:55:58] Alice may be gone,

[00:55:59] but you can still see Ali on as each of Park.

[00:56:02] And the diplomat.

[00:56:06] Way to sell other shows.

[00:56:07] I haven't watched it yet.

[00:56:08] I haven't watched it,

[00:56:09] but cool.

[00:56:11] All right.

[00:56:11] Abby says,

[00:56:12] that was wicked.

[00:56:13] And I don't think she means the musical.

[00:56:16] I'm glad Alice,

[00:56:17] like the audience expressed her frustration on the timing of her demise and gets an explanation of sorts.

[00:56:22] But still,

[00:56:23] yes.

[00:56:25] Why do all in sundry forget about Sharon?

[00:56:28] She is treated like collateral damage.

[00:56:30] Sharon,

[00:56:30] who I know,

[00:56:32] right?

[00:56:33] Billy all along.

[00:56:35] Right.

[00:56:35] Well,

[00:56:36] I cried during episode nine.

[00:56:37] Okay.

[00:56:38] Very emotional episode.

[00:56:39] So when is season two,

[00:56:41] we need to see what happens to Tommy and how they find him.

[00:56:43] And where did Jen go?

[00:56:45] LOL.

[00:56:46] At Alicia man thing.

[00:56:48] Sure.

[00:56:48] Why not?

[00:56:50] And how will Billy explain all this to his boyfriend?

[00:56:54] There's more story to tell.

[00:56:56] And if they tell it,

[00:56:56] I will be watching.

[00:56:57] As will we.

[00:57:00] And then,

[00:57:01] um,

[00:57:01] that to Wichi writes in.

[00:57:03] So I heard the bell Nicholas steals in episode nine is the bell.

[00:57:09] Agatha uses to start the song to open the road in the basement.

[00:57:12] It does look the same.

[00:57:14] So I'm calling it a nice touch and you are right.

[00:57:16] It's a very nice touch because it is the same.

[00:57:19] Yes.

[00:57:20] Correct.

[00:57:21] Uh,

[00:57:21] striker is 64 55 says I started my rewatch and noticed that Nikki had a best

[00:57:27] vocalist trophy in his room on an episode one.

[00:57:30] And that the true crime version of the witch's road appears to match Nikki's

[00:57:33] version from episode nine.

[00:57:34] Love all the new details to pick up on rewatch.

[00:57:37] The show has been my favorite Marvel project since WandaVision.

[00:57:40] Wow.

[00:57:42] Great stuff.

[00:57:45] Davey Mac writes in,

[00:57:47] if I'm being entirely honest,

[00:57:48] I struggled a bit with episode eight and had trouble tracking some of the

[00:57:52] emotional swings and motivations,

[00:57:54] particularly Agatha.

[00:57:55] And I was a little unclear about how things work.

[00:57:58] I'm very much looking forward to the podcast to unpack and help me sort

[00:58:01] through it.

[00:58:02] Thankfully,

[00:58:02] I was a big fan of the finale.

[00:58:05] The reveal that the world,

[00:58:06] that the road was created by Billy was very usual suspects and how they

[00:58:10] revealed it.

[00:58:11] And that was fine.

[00:58:12] But what made this ending special was the further revealed that witch's road

[00:58:17] has such a humble,

[00:58:18] beautiful beginnings,

[00:58:19] a song collaboration between mother and son to only then be twisted into a

[00:58:24] deadly con first using Nicholas as bait,

[00:58:27] a la paper boom.

[00:58:28] And then Agatha just twisted it even further.

[00:58:31] And then Billy grappling with responsibility for the deaths he blames

[00:58:35] themselves for when in reality he could have actually gave,

[00:58:39] given them extra time.

[00:58:41] They wouldn't have had otherwise.

[00:58:42] That was all great.

[00:58:44] As for Agatha's death trap.

[00:58:46] I took the initial con as trying to stall death by giving her bodies in

[00:58:50] exchange for more time for Nicholas,

[00:58:52] but then Nicholas doesn't want to participate anymore.

[00:58:55] And that's when death comes for him.

[00:58:57] But when Agatha can't resist the allure of power and she's in pain,

[00:59:01] she continues the con long after Nicholas died.

[00:59:05] But yeah,

[00:59:06] I see her as pretty despicable despite some of the pain and humanity that's

[00:59:09] shown through at times throughout the series.

[00:59:12] But I liked the dissidence.

[00:59:15] I was also a bit confused by Billy joining her at first,

[00:59:18] given how angry he was with her and how much he felt responsibility for the

[00:59:23] deaths that occurred on the road.

[00:59:24] But he seems really conflicted to me.

[00:59:26] And I don't think this is going to be an easy partnership.

[00:59:30] I was more lukewarm on the penultimate episode.

[00:59:33] It wasn't sure if I was going to like the finale,

[00:59:36] but they did it.

[00:59:37] They stuck the landing.

[00:59:39] And I love how they went smaller and more intimate rather than going bigger

[00:59:43] and flashier.

[00:59:44] I like the messiness here.

[00:59:46] I don't mean messiness in time,

[00:59:48] in terms of writing.

[00:59:50] I think it was well-written and constructed,

[00:59:52] just messiness in terms of contrasting emotions and characterizations.

[00:59:57] Yes.

[00:59:58] I agree.

[00:59:59] It's a good way of putting it.

[01:00:01] I, you know,

[01:00:01] I would say realistic shades of gray,

[01:00:04] but yeah,

[01:00:04] messiness because people are messy.

[01:00:06] Life is messy.

[01:00:09] Athena Adjalea says,

[01:00:11] I agree with Davy Mack's interpretation.

[01:00:13] I had the feeling that she was killing witches for Nicholas in some way to

[01:00:16] extend her time with him based on how she doesn't want to pass over and

[01:00:21] see him at the end.

[01:00:22] I think after his death,

[01:00:23] she didn't think she was worthy of seeing him or was avoiding it,

[01:00:27] which may have some bearing on continuing the con when the opportunity presented

[01:00:31] itself to keep absorbing other witches power.

[01:00:34] Regardless,

[01:00:35] I left this episode feeling conflicted in a good way.

[01:00:38] Agatha is not a good person,

[01:00:39] but especially coming from my feeling as a very new mother,

[01:00:43] her desire to do anything for more time with her son was very relatable.

[01:00:48] So I have sympathy for her in that.

[01:00:50] I like the moral complexity in a character though.

[01:00:54] And it is why her sacrifice at the end felt earned with that additional level

[01:00:58] of depth.

[01:00:59] I sobbed for a good half of this episode though,

[01:01:02] complete emotional wreck.

[01:01:04] Yeah.

[01:01:05] And you know,

[01:01:06] it's interesting that Athena says as a new mom,

[01:01:10] because I,

[01:01:11] and speaking with,

[01:01:12] with,

[01:01:13] you know,

[01:01:13] my better half yesterday,

[01:01:16] she and another friend of ours also expressed that,

[01:01:20] that feeling like,

[01:01:22] why couldn't Rio just give her more time?

[01:01:27] Right.

[01:01:28] She like,

[01:01:30] Agatha is justified in blaming Rio almost because Rio could have extended.

[01:01:34] Why not give them a thousand years together?

[01:01:37] Why not give them 500 years together?

[01:01:39] Why this brief period of time?

[01:01:41] And,

[01:01:42] you know,

[01:01:43] I answered because in my thought process,

[01:01:47] it was simply that she gave what she could have,

[01:01:52] because as the personification of this,

[01:01:56] you know,

[01:01:57] universal constant,

[01:01:59] this is her function,

[01:02:02] right?

[01:02:03] This is what she,

[01:02:06] this is the only reason that Rio exists basically.

[01:02:10] So everything outside of that function,

[01:02:14] she's already doing too much.

[01:02:18] You know,

[01:02:18] she's already,

[01:02:19] she's already doing too much falling in love.

[01:02:22] She's done too much,

[01:02:24] you know,

[01:02:24] having a partner,

[01:02:25] she's doing too much,

[01:02:27] you know,

[01:02:29] extending a life.

[01:02:30] She's doing too much.

[01:02:32] She did what she could,

[01:02:33] but it says something that for people,

[01:02:39] people who see the struggle that Agatha has,

[01:02:44] and the very real reasons why she would feel the way that she feels.

[01:02:52] Mm-hmm.

[01:02:53] Yeah.

[01:02:54] Yeah.

[01:02:55] Yeah.

[01:02:55] We don't know what,

[01:02:57] what and from where pressure from above comes for Rio,

[01:03:02] you know,

[01:03:02] um,

[01:03:03] death is not the leader of the universe.

[01:03:06] It stands to reason that she might have,

[01:03:08] you know,

[01:03:08] pressure coming from the outside.

[01:03:09] And she says to Agatha,

[01:03:11] like,

[01:03:11] I've given no one else in the universe as much leeway as I've given you.

[01:03:14] So,

[01:03:15] yeah,

[01:03:16] I,

[01:03:16] I do tend to fall on the side of Rio didn't do anything wrong.

[01:03:20] She's just like kind of sarcastic and bitchy about things,

[01:03:23] but that's fun.

[01:03:23] Right.

[01:03:25] Um,

[01:03:27] Parson 20,

[01:03:29] watch final two episodes and quite a few surprises.

[01:03:33] I enjoyed the show.

[01:03:34] Overall,

[01:03:35] the witch's road being Billy's creation,

[01:03:37] just like with Wanda and Westview was something I didn't see coming.

[01:03:41] Neither did I,

[01:03:42] nor.

[01:03:43] Or I guess that the road was a ruse by Agatha just to kill more witches.

[01:03:49] Agatha's backstory with her son was quite sad though.

[01:03:52] So Agatha really died and is now a ghost working with Billy to find Tommy.

[01:03:57] Don't know if we're getting a season two of Agatha all along,

[01:04:01] but what happens next could be interesting.

[01:04:04] Totally agree.

[01:04:05] What happens next is definitely going to be interesting.

[01:04:08] Give me more of this story.

[01:04:09] It has to happen.

[01:04:10] What happens next has to happen.

[01:04:12] Yes.

[01:04:15] Josh Lou says,

[01:04:17] well,

[01:04:18] death had an answer for all of Alice's and my objections to her fate when it

[01:04:22] seemed like she had so much road to go.

[01:04:25] Sometimes life and death ain't fair and some boys die.

[01:04:29] Sorry,

[01:04:29] William.

[01:04:30] I did like that.

[01:04:31] This is a second time we've had a Mark Marvel protagonist go toe to

[01:04:35] toe with some version of death seemingly gets the upper hand for a moment

[01:04:39] and then have them admit they can't win because well,

[01:04:42] it's death.

[01:04:43] And something tells me this particular embodiment would not be stopped even by

[01:04:48] Norse apocalypse.

[01:04:49] So I think,

[01:04:50] I think the other version he's referring to hell.

[01:04:53] Yeah.

[01:04:54] Yeah.

[01:04:55] And,

[01:04:55] and,

[01:04:55] and Thor Ragnarok.

[01:04:57] If we're still going with magic,

[01:04:59] perhaps reflecting the infinity stones,

[01:05:01] then death getting green.

[01:05:03] The color of the time stone certainly checks out.

[01:05:05] It's the only one that,

[01:05:07] as they say is undefeated.

[01:05:08] Yeah.

[01:05:08] I mean,

[01:05:09] I agree that still tracks,

[01:05:11] but Jen and her pink magic.

[01:05:12] I don't,

[01:05:13] that doesn't,

[01:05:13] we don't know about that.

[01:05:14] I mean,

[01:05:15] unless there's a new one coming out.

[01:05:16] Right.

[01:05:18] I do enjoy when a story makes the point of,

[01:05:21] Hey,

[01:05:21] you know,

[01:05:22] that protagonist you've been rooting for this whole time.

[01:05:25] The one who's redemption you want to see.

[01:05:27] Maybe you shouldn't be.

[01:05:28] It's the one,

[01:05:30] it's one thing to have Lilia tell us about Agatha's reputation.

[01:05:33] It's a whole other thing to see it play out over and over and over.

[01:05:37] Yes.

[01:05:38] I hope Billy is right.

[01:05:39] And he doesn't get used to accepting the deaths of others for his own goals.

[01:05:44] He does reject Agatha's initial justification.

[01:05:46] So hopefully he sticks to it.

[01:05:49] I will be very interested to see what kinds of conversations he might have with

[01:05:52] white vision.

[01:05:53] Ooh.

[01:05:54] Yeah.

[01:05:54] Yeah.

[01:05:55] Definitely interested in seeing them talking.

[01:05:56] And I feel like Billy,

[01:05:58] he,

[01:05:58] because he had,

[01:06:00] I mean,

[01:06:01] from what he could possibly remember of his time with Wanda and vision,

[01:06:05] he definitely was given love there,

[01:06:07] even from Agatha.

[01:06:09] Except for that time she kidnapped them to threaten their mind,

[01:06:12] but whatever,

[01:06:13] you know,

[01:06:14] which stuff happens.

[01:06:17] But I think also even more importantly,

[01:06:20] the time he's had with the Kaplans has been a time of support and love.

[01:06:25] And I think that puts him in a better place to be like,

[01:06:27] no,

[01:06:28] Agatha,

[01:06:29] you don't have to,

[01:06:30] not,

[01:06:30] not everybody's out to get you.

[01:06:32] Okay.

[01:06:32] Right.

[01:06:34] So we continue with Brian,

[01:06:36] 80,

[01:06:37] 63.

[01:06:37] I caught the last two episodes last night for Halloween.

[01:06:40] I have to sit with this ending.

[01:06:42] I liked it.

[01:06:43] I can say that.

[01:06:45] Did I love it?

[01:06:46] Perhaps not.

[01:06:47] Anyway,

[01:06:47] I am giving it more thought,

[01:06:49] but overall,

[01:06:50] I will miss this show.

[01:06:51] Wow.

[01:06:52] What a season of TV.

[01:06:54] We will miss this show as well,

[01:06:56] but it's coming back.

[01:06:57] Yeah.

[01:06:59] Yeah.

[01:06:59] Yeah.

[01:06:59] I mean,

[01:06:59] I think what the sense I'm getting is that most people,

[01:07:03] whether or not they're satisfied with how the finale went,

[01:07:06] they still love the show overall.

[01:07:08] Yeah.

[01:07:09] Yeah.

[01:07:10] Which as,

[01:07:10] as it should be.

[01:07:12] So sub zero says,

[01:07:14] I'm amazed at how they wove all of Lillia's time hopping experiences

[01:07:18] throughout the earlier episodes.

[01:07:20] And it paid off with a bang in episode eight.

[01:07:23] This is the,

[01:07:24] this is next level story writing,

[01:07:25] something not often seen in the superhero genre.

[01:07:28] We were along for the ride when Lillia started piecing everything together

[01:07:32] and all of the clues started clicking in my head as well.

[01:07:36] I was blown away by how they pulled it off.

[01:07:38] I'm so glad they did not go with a big,

[01:07:41] big ass Marvel fight as the climax.

[01:07:43] Me too.

[01:07:44] There's a time and place for those.

[01:07:45] And it's not this series.

[01:07:47] I didn't,

[01:07:47] however,

[01:07:48] come away with the impression that we were supposed to consider Agatha

[01:07:51] hero or that what she did over the years was forgivable.

[01:07:55] I think we're supposed to have complicated emotions about all that

[01:07:58] transpired.

[01:07:59] The backstory with her and Nicholas helped to add more depth to her

[01:08:02] character.

[01:08:03] She is capable of love.

[01:08:05] She is capable of putting the needs of another human being above that of

[01:08:08] her own.

[01:08:09] When you combine that backstory as added context for how she quote unquote

[01:08:13] mothered teen slash Billy throughout much of this series,

[01:08:16] then her sacrifice at the end felt truly earned.

[01:08:19] There is so much heart to the series mixed in with just the right amount of

[01:08:23] humor.

[01:08:23] I really hope there is a season to Billy and Agatha's excellent road trip.

[01:08:28] I'll take that title.

[01:08:32] And then we have,

[01:08:34] um,

[01:08:34] Danny have the ballot of the witch's road by Japanese breakfast on heavy rotation

[01:08:40] playlist.

[01:08:42] Cool band.

[01:08:43] Otherwise too.

[01:08:43] Yeah.

[01:08:45] And I second that,

[01:08:46] um,

[01:08:46] I do like Japanese breakfast in general and,

[01:08:48] uh,

[01:08:49] the little song bits you've been hearing throughout this particular episode are

[01:08:52] clips from the version of the ballad.

[01:08:55] Yeah.

[01:08:56] Do you want to do the last one as well?

[01:08:58] Sure.

[01:08:58] This is from Rocky's end.

[01:09:00] Love the last two episodes.

[01:09:02] Hopefully we get more of this story.

[01:09:04] Agatha is a force ghost.

[01:09:06] Now.

[01:09:10] Hey,

[01:09:10] man,

[01:09:11] there's not,

[01:09:11] there's not mixed all properties here.

[01:09:13] Right.

[01:09:14] You know,

[01:09:14] I got my store.

[01:09:15] I got issues with the star Wars universe.

[01:09:17] It is not no force ghost over here.

[01:09:20] Well,

[01:09:20] Hey,

[01:09:20] I mean,

[01:09:21] they're both Disney.

[01:09:22] So we can have her.

[01:09:23] I would love to see a conversation between her and Obi-Wan Kenobi.

[01:09:27] Like,

[01:09:27] how do you think that would go?

[01:09:28] Oh,

[01:09:28] and Anakin.

[01:09:30] Oh my God.

[01:09:30] No,

[01:09:31] she used to talk to Anakin.

[01:09:31] Her and Anakin.

[01:09:32] That would be a great conversation.

[01:09:34] I need that now.

[01:09:37] And a non canon,

[01:09:38] you know,

[01:09:39] just like fun holiday event or something.

[01:09:41] Yeah.

[01:09:42] Like that would be cool of a cup of,

[01:09:45] you know,

[01:09:45] I don't know.

[01:09:46] What,

[01:09:46] what,

[01:09:46] what would Anakin ghost be drinking?

[01:09:49] Yeah.

[01:09:50] Blue milk,

[01:09:51] I guess,

[01:09:51] but yeah.

[01:09:53] Hmm.

[01:09:55] Yeah.

[01:09:55] Um,

[01:09:56] I mean,

[01:09:57] I guess there is,

[01:09:58] it is a question that needs to be answered in the MCU and it isn't really

[01:10:02] answered in the comics either is no,

[01:10:04] how does one become a ghost versus going?

[01:10:06] And what's the lower around that?

[01:10:08] I mean,

[01:10:09] people pass and they just go onto the afterlife.

[01:10:12] And that's really it.

[01:10:14] Star Wars has gone to great lengths to define that,

[01:10:16] which is not 100% consistent at all times,

[01:10:19] but you know,

[01:10:20] they made efforts.

[01:10:21] Yeah.

[01:10:22] They have.

[01:10:22] They have.

[01:10:24] Yeah.

[01:10:24] Thank you.

[01:10:25] Thank you everyone.

[01:10:26] Yeah.

[01:10:27] That was cool.

[01:10:27] Excellent thoughts and feedback.

[01:10:29] And,

[01:10:29] um,

[01:10:30] you know,

[01:10:30] I really appreciate it.

[01:10:32] People are coming from different places,

[01:10:34] have different theories,

[01:10:35] have different opinions.

[01:10:36] Um,

[01:10:36] that might not match our own,

[01:10:38] but,

[01:10:38] uh,

[01:10:38] it's,

[01:10:39] it's good to just to see how this inspires so many different thoughts and,

[01:10:44] and feelings and people.

[01:10:46] Yeah.

[01:10:46] And it's great to have the space to,

[01:10:48] you know,

[01:10:48] talk about these things.

[01:10:49] So yeah,

[01:10:50] this is really great.

[01:10:51] Thank you all.

[01:10:52] Yeah.

[01:10:53] Yeah.

[01:10:54] Yeah.

[01:10:54] And I'm looking forward to putting together a wrap up pod,

[01:10:57] which will be coming soon.

[01:10:59] And,

[01:11:00] uh,

[01:11:00] if you are enjoying our Agatha all along coverage,

[01:11:03] then you can help,

[01:11:05] help us out a lot by passing our episodes on and also leaving us positive

[01:11:09] reviews,

[01:11:10] wherever you listen.

[01:11:11] It's a small free thing that you can do that really makes a huge difference

[01:11:15] for us.

[01:11:15] So huge.

[01:11:16] Thank you to anyone who's willing to take a second to do that.

[01:11:20] Uh,

[01:11:21] what's up next for us on Marvel.

[01:11:22] I mean,

[01:11:23] we'll,

[01:11:23] we'll keep it short cause we ran through it all yesterday,

[01:11:25] but yeah,

[01:11:26] Craven,

[01:11:27] um,

[01:11:28] soon to come.

[01:11:30] Uh,

[01:11:31] so yeah.

[01:11:31] So after Craven,

[01:11:32] we're going to be doing our Sony live action Marvel power ranking.

[01:11:37] So that's going to include,

[01:11:38] we're not ignoring the new Venom movie.

[01:11:40] We'll talk about it then.

[01:11:41] Yes,

[01:11:41] yes,

[01:11:41] yes.

[01:11:42] Sorry about that.

[01:11:43] So,

[01:11:43] and then January,

[01:11:44] we get a one shot of,

[01:11:45] of what is final seasons.

[01:11:46] Um,

[01:11:47] the daily episodes start December 22nd.

[01:11:50] Um,

[01:11:51] and we'll see Agatha in,

[01:11:53] in that series.

[01:11:55] Also January 25,

[01:11:56] um,

[01:11:57] we're going to do the Marvel,

[01:11:58] um,

[01:11:59] 25 release part.

[01:12:00] So we'll get you up to date on everything that's going to come,

[01:12:03] hopefully in next year.

[01:12:04] And,

[01:12:05] talk about what we,

[01:12:06] uh,

[01:12:07] wish to see how we hope it all turns out.

[01:12:09] Um,

[01:12:09] pack slate.

[01:12:11] Yeah.

[01:12:11] And then on the DC side of things,

[01:12:13] we have,

[01:12:13] um,

[01:12:13] the penguin finale next week,

[01:12:15] which we'll be,

[01:12:15] you know,

[01:12:16] parting about.

[01:12:17] Definitely.

[01:12:18] Um,

[01:12:19] then we're going to do the Joker two movie review combined with our first

[01:12:23] versus episode,

[01:12:24] where we take characters from Marvel and DC and pick them against one another.

[01:12:28] Um,

[01:12:28] this one will be Joker versus you'll have to find out.

[01:12:32] Yeah.

[01:12:33] We,

[01:12:33] we know we're just not telling you.

[01:12:34] Yeah.

[01:12:35] Basically.

[01:12:36] Um,

[01:12:36] also we have the Pachinko one shot that's coming up.

[01:12:40] That's with you,

[01:12:40] Alicia.

[01:12:41] Yeah.

[01:12:41] Yeah.

[01:12:41] Me and David and Nate are Japanese historian.

[01:12:45] And then starting in less than two weeks.

[01:12:47] Um,

[01:12:47] again,

[01:12:48] this is you,

[01:12:48] Alicia silo and doom prophecy.

[01:12:50] Yeah.

[01:12:51] How do you feel?

[01:12:52] Uh,

[01:12:53] already like,

[01:12:54] I'm like,

[01:12:54] I'm just finishing up weekly coverage.

[01:12:56] Here comes more,

[01:12:56] but no,

[01:12:57] I'm very excited.

[01:12:58] Um,

[01:12:59] I've got screeners for silo.

[01:13:00] So I have already watched the first couple episodes and,

[01:13:02] and these seasons off to a good start and I can't wait to see how people

[01:13:06] start reacting to this and doom prophecy.

[01:13:09] Yeah.

[01:13:10] I am super enjoying the book sisterhood of doing that.

[01:13:13] It's based on.

[01:13:14] So,

[01:13:14] um,

[01:13:16] crossing my fingers that this is good,

[01:13:17] at least visually looks spectacular.

[01:13:19] Yeah.

[01:13:20] I mean,

[01:13:21] yeah.

[01:13:21] Yeah.

[01:13:22] Um,

[01:13:23] then if you guys want more witches coming up at the start of December is

[01:13:27] wicked.

[01:13:28] The movie,

[01:13:28] the review,

[01:13:29] the movie,

[01:13:31] um,

[01:13:32] and the reviews are in and it's being called a musical masterpiece.

[01:13:36] So yeah,

[01:13:37] we'll be talking about that as well.

[01:13:39] Um,

[01:13:40] yeah.

[01:13:40] Then there's the star Wars.

[01:13:43] Canon.

[01:13:44] Yeah.

[01:13:45] I never know what the TSWCP CTP stands for.

[01:13:49] So go ahead.

[01:13:49] Take it away.

[01:13:50] Alicia.

[01:13:51] I never write out the whole thing,

[01:13:52] but yeah,

[01:13:53] the star Wars Canon timeline podcast.

[01:13:55] We're picking things back up,

[01:13:57] uh,

[01:13:57] uh,

[01:13:57] going back through the high Republic,

[01:14:00] radioactive ramblings,

[01:14:01] doing their red rising series.

[01:14:03] And that series of books,

[01:14:03] breaking the books down a few chapters at a time.

[01:14:06] John,

[01:14:07] you already gave a nice plug to nevermind the music.

[01:14:09] And you heard,

[01:14:10] uh,

[01:14:11] like the first episode was about,

[01:14:12] it's always about music and psychology together.

[01:14:14] So as Mark was saying in his feedback,

[01:14:16] the first episode is about paramour,

[01:14:18] the band and the motive limbic system,

[01:14:21] which Nicole brought into talk about how music and our psychology,

[01:14:27] physiology interact.

[01:14:28] Um,

[01:14:29] and yeah,

[01:14:30] we've been not shouting out the blog enough,

[01:14:32] but actually I have to shout out that for spooktober,

[01:14:36] Brian,

[01:14:36] 8063 left a,

[01:14:38] uh,

[01:14:39] great piece about comparing the,

[01:14:43] uh,

[01:14:43] well,

[01:14:44] the 1979 version of Salem slot,

[01:14:46] the mini series with the new version that just came out this year.

[01:14:50] And,

[01:14:50] uh,

[01:14:51] yeah,

[01:14:51] that was a great post.

[01:14:52] I'm,

[01:14:52] I did not love the new version,

[01:14:54] but after reading his post,

[01:14:55] I'm definitely going to watch the 79 version.

[01:14:57] Yeah.

[01:14:58] 79 version was,

[01:14:59] was,

[01:15:00] I remember as a,

[01:15:01] yeah,

[01:15:01] it was spooky.

[01:15:02] This new version was there.

[01:15:04] Yeah.

[01:15:05] This new version was just like,

[01:15:07] yeah.

[01:15:07] And then you run here and then action.

[01:15:09] And then you run here.

[01:15:10] And then,

[01:15:10] and that's how it felt like that much like investment.

[01:15:13] Yeah.

[01:15:15] It's some nice production design,

[01:15:16] but okay.

[01:15:18] All right.

[01:15:19] You ready for a hit of music from the folder?

[01:15:22] Go ahead.

[01:15:23] Go ahead.

[01:15:24] Bring it on.

[01:15:26] Old village.

[01:15:28] Thank you to our discord server boosters,

[01:15:31] Aaron K.

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[01:15:35] Tina,

[01:15:36] the stew,

[01:15:37] Nancy M ghost of partition,

[01:15:38] Richard W.

[01:15:40] And thank you.

[01:15:41] Well,

[01:15:42] just thank you in general to all of our listeners.

[01:15:44] Always like this.

[01:15:45] We do this for all of you.

[01:15:47] Thank you,

[01:15:48] especially to our lore hounds.

[01:15:49] And thank you most especially of all to our lore masters,

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[01:16:08] Sarah M,

[01:16:08] DJ Miwa,

[01:16:09] Andre B,

[01:16:10] Kwong Yu,

[01:16:11] Dead Eye Jedi Bob,

[01:16:12] Nathan T,

[01:16:13] Alex V,

[01:16:14] Aaron T,

[01:16:15] Sub Zero,

[01:16:16] Aaron K,

[01:16:16] Dally V,

[01:16:17] Mothership 61,

[01:16:19] Narls,

[01:16:20] Kathy W,

[01:16:21] Listu,

[01:16:22] Jeffrey B,

[01:16:23] Elisa U,

[01:16:24] Neil F,

[01:16:25] Ben B,

[01:16:26] Scott F,

[01:16:27] Steven N,

[01:16:28] and always last,

[01:16:30] Adriana.

[01:16:33] Thank you,

[01:16:33] everyone.

[01:16:34] Thank you all.

[01:16:35] All right,

[01:16:36] see you for the wrap up soon.

[01:16:40] And Feige,

[01:16:43] recast T'Challa.

[01:16:45] The Lorehounds Podcast is produced and published by The Lorehounds.

[01:16:49] You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact.

[01:16:55] Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds Podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds.

[01:17:00] Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities.