Daredevil: Born Again S1-E3 – The Hollow of His Hand (MCUniverse)

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[00:01:25] Hey, it's Alicia and Jean here with Comics vs. a Lorehounds podcast.

[00:01:57] An MCU discussion of Daredevil, episode three, Daredevil Born Again, we should say. Season one, episode three. And yeah, this was kind of put together last minute. Thank you, Jean, for agreeing to do this. Yeah, what's up? What's up? What's up? No, thanks needed. You know, anytime we get an opportunity to talk, I relish it. So let's go. Yeah, I mean, it just felt like this was a heavy hitting episode. It was. For me, this was like the episode of the season so far.

[00:02:25] And it just felt disrespectful, especially given the material we're about to discuss in a minute to sort of jam it together with the next two. Yeah. Yeah. Because this very much closes off a story arc. So, okay, we're going to keep this a quicker episode. So we're going to get right into this. And it means that spoilers commence immediately for this episode, the last two episodes, anything else from Marvel TV films or comics that we feel like bringing up.

[00:02:55] But the episode we're specifically here to talk about today is episode three, The Hollow of His Hand, written by Jill Blankenship, who is also credited for episode seven of this season. And her previous work, especially, was on the DC side with like Arrow and Naomi. So interesting. She's bringing that DC. Yeah. Yeah. I still haven't seen it yet, but yeah. She's one of my fave new characters from the last 10 years. So she's in comics as well. Yeah.

[00:03:26] I heard good things about the show, but then it was like, then they just kind of. It felt rushed. Yeah? Okay. Yeah. It felt rushed. It felt rushed. I don't think they did a good service to her on the show as well as, you know, the comic is outstanding. So it really, the show was a step down for me, but still. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:46] And it, um, I think that, that was like one of the very last ones before they were like, we're, we're, we're wrapping up this whole, uh, DC, uh, CW verse because the CW doesn't make shows like this anymore. Right? Yeah. Well, well, but anyway, Jill Blankenship is a writer, a director was a Michael Cuesta who also directed episode two. So yeah, I had a feeling this was going to be a two episode, a character arc and it sure was.

[00:04:11] Um, and this one, it starts with the trial of Hector Ayala, uh, which ends in a victory, but ultimately ends in tragedy. The entire episode reflecting the real life passing of actor Kamar Delos Reyes from cancer during the production of this show. And, um, Jean, what are your hot takes on the episode overall? Yeah, I agree with you. I thought it was the best of the three so far.

[00:04:36] Um, and I thought that the acting on all fronts was so on point. Um, the courtroom scenes were just really good. Um, my better half was like, she hated the DA and I'm like, yeah, you know, I kind of understand that. Yeah. I hate them too, but, uh, they, everybody who, who spoke in the episode was riveting to me.

[00:05:06] Mm-hmm. Um, and I just, you know, watching it, I said to myself, please don't do it. I hope they don't do it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I explained to Christina why I hope they don't do it and what was done in the comics. And I'm just like, I hope they don't do it. Please don't do it. And then they did it. Mm-hmm. And I felt, I was crushed. Mm-hmm. I was crushed. I, I was like, oh.

[00:05:36] Man, give me at least one more episode with him. You know what I mean? I have more episodes with him. And for him to, after that victory, to put on the mask, put dependent back on, start walking his quote unquote beat. Um, and then for him to get just gunned down like that was just, ah, that was heart wrenching. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:06] Yeah. I mean, we knew that he was going to pass away at some point this season. Yes. Because, you know, it's, it's part of the comics and it's part of, um, real life. What actually happened. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I, I actually had it spoiled for me before I started this episode. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. It was unfortunate. Yeah. A few times, actually, people have been talking about this. And so I knew going in.

[00:06:29] And so I started tearing up as soon as he starts, like Hector starts talking to Matt in the jail cell at the start of the episode. where he's talking about the cokey frogs in Puerto Rico. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And Matt says to him, and so during this time, as this was being filmed, Camar de los Reyes, the actor, he was basically pulling a Chadwick Boseman.

[00:06:56] He knew he had cancer and it was advancing quickly, but he didn't tell anyone at work. So he knew while they're having this conversation that he was dying of cancer, but none of the other people around him did. And Matt says, you're going to see that beach again, Hexer, I promise. And it just hit me so, yeah. It hit me really hard. Wow.

[00:07:24] I mean, Camar was just, he was riveting in every scene that he was in. Yeah. He just radiated something. Mm-hmm. You know, like this is like, this, I'm watching the character and I'm just like, man, I wish I could hang out with this guy. Yeah. You know, have dinner with him, you know what I mean? He's a solid dude. Drink some coquito over the holidays, you know, get some pasteles and shit like that.

[00:07:53] And just, yeah, just felt like someone that I would want to be around. Mm-hmm. And that, you don't often get that from actors, you know? You don't, you don't often get that in their portrayal of characters. You may get that from them in real life, you know? But to have that sort of portrayal that weighed on me, it was like, wow, this guy is really

[00:08:20] firing on so many cylinders and just tragic. Yeah. Yeah. And it was really powerful also that over the end credits, there was no music, just the Koki croaks. Just the frog. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's good stuff, man. Mm-hmm. No, I think, I mean, there was, you know, some people were like, did they do him wrong? And it did feel fast.

[00:08:47] I do wonder if this would have been a longer character arc. So basically, they filmed, you know, these six episodes, and then the writer's strike started, and then he had passed away by the time they came back to finish the season. But they said, the production said, like, no, his arc was completed already. It's fine. But it does feel like, especially at the end when, you know, they have, he puts on the

[00:09:10] mask and stuff and then gets shot in the head, that felt like that was not really him. You know, that that was someone completing that arc for him. So I don't really, it's tough to say because they just rejiggered so much anyway that for reasons that have nothing to do with him passing away. Well, again, my better half also said that she felt it was rushed. Mm-hmm. You know, she felt like his demise, his passing, his death was too fast.

[00:09:38] Like, she was hoping for a team-up. Yeah. With him and Matt at some point. And yeah, just to hear that they felt like it was a completed arc before his passing. I don't know if I believe it. Yeah. I don't, I don't, I don't necessarily believe that at all. Or if they just like changed it because it, because of the other things that they changed. I don't know. Right.

[00:10:06] Or there's less room for that arc because they decided they wanted to work in the other characters from the previous shows. Right. It does feel like, yeah, it was kind of a bit short and I find that, I find that a shame, but that doesn't mean the end of White Tiger because his wife and niece were at the trial. Yeah. And in the comics, the niece is the next one who gets the mantle, right? It goes from Angela, his sister, to Ava.

[00:10:37] Oh, okay. And then there's some secret war tie-ins from the comics. Post-secret wars where, you know, evil Reed Richards, there's a whole thing going on. There's an evil Reed Richards, folks, just giving you warning right now. There's an evil Reed Richards in the Marvel comics. Please let that one play by John Krasinski. That would be cool.

[00:11:02] But yeah, so his niece and also his sister take up the mantle at different points after his passing in the comics. I wonder, because they featured his wife and now his niece, I wonder if they'll do those two instead, which I wouldn't mind at all. Yeah, it would be, I think it would be good. But then there's another person that plays, that takes up the mantle, like a cop.

[00:11:29] I want to say he's a cop, like a, yeah, I think he was a cop. I'm flubbing on his name, but I'll remember it and fill you in. Okay. Yeah. Just, you know, different people. But more recently it's been Ava and Angela fighting really over the moniker of the white tiger. Oh, really? Okay. Okay. Yeah, because the tiger guy kind of like leaves Ava to go to Angela. It's a story. It's a story.

[00:11:57] I do wonder about, you know, he was left on the street and the amulet was just around his neck. Would someone not steal that? That's what I was thinking. That's the first thing I thought. But I'm like, then why didn't the shooter take the amulet? Yeah. You know? But I don't think it works that way. I think, you know, you'll have to have some sort of- Like the amulet chooses you. Connection, yeah. Some sort of connection to the tiger god in order to wield the power.

[00:12:25] Just like Bass, the panther god, you know, imbues the black panther is almost in the same way. Khonshu. Yeah, imbues. Moon Knight. Moon Knight. Moon Knight. So. Yeah, I would love to see- I would love to see the next White Tiger and Moon Knight team up and do, like, you know, I really want a Midnight Suns. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. You do. Yeah. We'll see what happens. And we're definitely going to get some sort of Midnight Suns in the future, I think.

[00:12:54] But yeah, we'll see how soon. But yeah, this episode is super tense overall. Like, I was really on the edge of my seat, like really holding my breath at times. It was often infuriating. But in- Nikki Torres, man. Oh, fucking Nikki Torres. Like, okay. Is he going to be back to redeem himself for his lies? How?

[00:13:18] I mean, he's still out there and he, like, he really, I don't know. He, yeah, his story can't be over after this because, like, now we all hate Nikki Torres and his lies. But probably some sort of pressure was being put on him. But then again, Cherry gave Nikki drugs to get him courtroom ready. That was wild. That was wild. Is that going to come back and bite Cherry later? Why? He's not a cop anymore. Yeah. He's not a cop.

[00:13:46] But it's like, did you drug up your, did you drug up the witness before putting them on the stand? Maybe a little bit. But you should have seen him. Are we going to believe Nikki Torres? Nobody's going to tell, you know? Give him a little baggie. Get him, get him, you know, get him all right for the trial. You know, it happens. It happens. But they really did make it feel so good when he won in the end, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:16] And I liked how, how when he's, after he stands up, he hugs Matt and he has tears in his eyes. You know, he's looking at the cops, but they don't show you the cops when he's looking at them. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? It's like that, that was like, to me, I'm like, wow, that, that's something. And it's like, he's standing there looking at them. Like, you know, y'all know, now y'all know who I am. Y'all know. You know what I mean?

[00:14:44] It was just a, to me, that little, that little scene with him just surveying the courtroom, the gallery was really, was really, was really well done. It was really nice. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, so Matt ruffled a lot of feathers this week in his lawyer shenanigans, because last week we talked about, you know, that he said this whole thing about how they couldn't talk about how Hector was white tiger because it was prejudicial.

[00:15:13] And then this week he was like, well, Nikki Torres lied. So guess what? My client's white tiger. Right. Didn't like that at all. Didn't follow any of the, like, not legally how you do that, not morally how you handle your clients. Just, but it worked. It did work. He did it all wrong though. He did a disservice to him because I felt that Matt was, he didn't, let me not say

[00:15:38] it's a disservice, but I think that Matt was, especially after, and they're talking in the cell and he's like, you can move on. You know, you don't need to be, uh, to wear the mask anymore. Like trying to convince Hector to be like him, you know, and also trying to convince himself that the course of action that he's taken now is absolutely right. And, and I think that played a role into why he revealed his identity in the court, not just

[00:16:08] simply because it was a strategy to get him off, but also, you know, saying to himself, like, what I'm doing is, is the right way. The path that I'm following right now is the right path. And maybe I can get this guy to follow that path as well. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I think the smartest thing he did in that was, you know, because obviously Hector

[00:16:36] was on trial for killing a police officer. So he ended up giving a lot of cop testimonies about how white tiger helps them. Um, and I think, so I just want to point out a couple of names that were dropped. One is that there was an officer Morales. I don't know. That's not an uncommon last name. So I don't know if that has anything to do with a certain miles Morales. Um, and then the other one that I noticed was officer Grant's because surprise, surprise.

[00:17:04] One of my favorite Marvel character character, uh, Marvel characters is the cat lady is Tigra. And, uh, so Tigra is, has a background as a police officer. She even has a, an arc in the comics where she, um, manages to, cause she looks like a cheetah lady basically. And so she has an arc in the comics where she can disguise herself as a human, you know, without like spotted furry skin. And she joins the NYPD.

[00:17:32] So just makes me wonder as also Tigra was introduced. Uh, I just noticed this as I was looking it up. She was introduced at the same time as night nurse and night nurse was the character played by Rosario Dawson in the original daredevil series. So just putting it out there. Maybe. Maybe we got a tiger. I mean, we, we've got white tiger. Why not? Uh, let's just go full cat themes. I'm not, I wouldn't be mad about it. I wouldn't be mad about it.

[00:18:03] Open up the weird. You do the weird. It's okay. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You can still, you can be weird and street level at the same time and that'll give it a really unique flavor. And you can be weird and tell weird characters and tell really compelling stories too. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it absolutely allows, you know, like I've been talking about, talking up this movie better man a lot where, uh, it's a Robbie Williams biopic, but it doesn't matter if you don't know who Robbie Williams is, but people are like, Oh, the one where he's played by a monkey.

[00:18:31] I'm like, yes, but actually it works so much better with him as a monkey. First of all, you forget about it because they just did such an amazing job with the, everything with the VFX there. But also, yeah. Okay. But also, um, just the fact that he doesn't look like a douchey white dude and he looked, you know, instead it, it just makes him more sympathetic that even when he's being an asshole, cause he calls himself out as an asshole throughout the movie. I don't know. Right. Sometimes it just, yeah. Anyway. That's work sometimes. Yeah.

[00:19:02] Mm hmm. Um, so the opposing attorney though, he said something interesting. He said, you can be a hero without hiding behind a mask. And then, but then I, I, you know, this is something that I saw people commenting on online, like, you know, why can't you just be a police officer or things like that? Oh God. But I wanted to point out, we have these man on the street segments, uh, throughout these, this show because those are really cool. Yeah.

[00:19:30] I like, I like them because BB is a young journalist and she's the one who does these segments. And, um, it is just an interesting way to get like the perspective of the, of the city. Um, and we hear someone saying like, basically Hector, I, I, I, is not going to get a fair trial because he's Puerto Rican. And I think that that's comes back to the whole hiding behind a mask too. Absolutely. Absolutely. The, the notion that you could just become a cop is laughable.

[00:20:00] Hmm. You know, it just is. There's, there's a lot of, of history with communities of color, black, brown, and the policing in the United States. We don't need to get into it, but you know, that's the reality of the situation. And right now I live in a city that elected a former cop who's black to be mayor. And I personally did not vote for him. And one of the reasons I didn't vote for him is because he's a cop.

[00:20:32] I mean, I wouldn't have voted for him because he lied about weird things and pretended to be in his son's apartment. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of, you know, institutional things that one has to overcome in order to become a police officer. I have friends who are cops and they've had, you know, careers that it was tough, not only in the streets, but in the precincts. Mm-hmm.

[00:21:00] So yeah, just become a cop is not a cogent argument for me. But also as someone who's, you know, trying to, he's being vigilante, but trying to be helpful. It probably, he feels people are more receptive to him if he's anonymous. That too. But nobody tells Iron Man, just become a cop. Exactly. Nobody tells Captain America, just become a cop.

[00:21:25] So yeah, yeah, he, I, um, Tony Stark's credit, he did reveal himself like pretty much immediately. Yeah, he did. But you know, we're not, we're not. But it's easier for him. It's a, yeah. Right. Yeah. He's a rich, yeah. A rich white guy. Right. Nobody's telling Spidey just to become a cop. You know, you have these powers, just join the police force and wear a badge and nobody's doing that. Well, actually, yeah, it's, we're going to talk about Spider-Man, uh, later this week, but, um,

[00:21:54] yeah, it's just interesting. The lines being drawn between like the vigilante storytelling and stuff. Yeah. And by the way, and the other thing about Hector is because like, of course he wants to wear his fricking amulet. Like that's the other thing. Right. Yeah. And I recognize, you know, with, in the MCU, you have the superhero registration act and all of that stuff. I get it. You know, where you want people to be, they wanted people to be, you know, registered,

[00:22:20] carrying cards and identifying themselves and have, you know, case loads or whatever it may be. But writ large, no one is asking superheroes to be cops. That's not what we're doing here. We're not doing that. Yeah. Because within that institution comes a whole sort of other issues that may prevent you from doing the right thing. Mm-hmm. Hmm.

[00:22:51] So I'll leave it at that. Well, I thought it was also interesting what, um, he said in this episode about himself, Hector, where he says to Matt, like, he will always just be the white tiger. He can't stop being the white tiger because it's who he is inside. And it was just really interesting to watch Matt, knowing what he's going through as, you know, his giving up daredevil because he crossed the line and everything and listening to this and taking this in and like. But I feel it's something that he needs to hear, that Matt needs to hear.

[00:23:18] This is coming from someone who is trying to do the right thing always, just like Matt. Matt is wracked with guilt, right? But Hector doesn't, you know, we don't know how close he's come to the line, if he's ever come close to that line or if he's ever crossed it. But what we do know is that the guy puts on his suit, puts on the amulet, and he goes out and he tries to help people. Yeah.

[00:23:48] With these incredible powers that he was given. And I think that is what he's trying to convey to Matt in that moment. Like, this is me. I want to help and I have the power to help in ways that other people don't. So I'm going to do it. And Matt has to sit with that. And it's going to be interesting for me to watch as he grapples with that, knowing that Hector lost his life. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:14] And, you know, Hector must have known that he had a target painted on his back after all this, but he still went out because he's like, I'm never going to give that up. And he didn't give that up. I do wonder, do you think, did Fisk order this hit on Hector? They kind of edited it. I think he did. You do? Yes. I think he has those, those Punisher cops on his payroll. Somehow, somewhere. Okay. I think that role.

[00:24:44] Or Vanessa does? I don't think it's Vanessa. No. No, I think it's Fisk. I think he's working with those, with those cops who have the Punisher insignia tattooed on them and who are wearing Punisher shirts. Because I don't think that was Frank Castle at all. No. So, but I do think Fisk has his hands in the mix. Yes. I do notice that, you know, this series of events, it's probably going to make people

[00:25:12] have some distrust for the NYPD. And you have to ask, is Fisk going to exploit that? I mean, he can start his own venture, you know, outside of the NYPD to bring vigilantes to heel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, the title of the episode, uh, hollow of his hand, it comes from Heather says at

[00:25:38] one point to Matt, she says, may God hold them all in the hollow of his hand, which is a classic blessing. But, um, I think it comes from, and I'm, I'll say upfront, I'm not a biblical scholar. I am agnostic, um, but going to read a Bible verse and, and just kind of analyze what it means in this context, considering we know daredevil is Catholic and we know that, um, 85% of Puerto Ricans are Catholic.

[00:26:05] And, uh, well, we'll, we'll talk about Camar de los Reyes in a moment, but so Isaiah 40, 12, the Catholic public domain version is who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand and who has weighed the heavens with his palm, who has suspended the mass of the earth with three fingers and who has weighed the mountains on a balance and the hills on a scale. And I, again, not religious, but I spent some time thinking about what does this mean and

[00:26:34] reading what some other people said, what it means. And what I gather from it is it's sort of, you know, how can we seek to know the will of God who is so vast and beyond us. And maybe in a way, this is a comfort when someone, you know, passes away on Christmas Eve at the age of 56. Um, when other people pass in our life, maybe this is how, uh, uh, seeking of comfort that

[00:27:04] we cannot know the will of God. What do you think? Yeah, I took it, you know, again, as a reformed Catholic, um, that the heaviness that you have, God can hold on and hold that weight. Hmm. Like you don't have to carry that burden. Mm hmm. May God hold them all in the hollow of his hand.

[00:27:28] When that weight is bearing down on your shoulders and you feel like it's impossible to take another step, let him hold, let her hold all those troubles. And then you will be able to move forward because you're not holding it or you're not holding it alone. Right. Okay. Okay. That's beautiful.

[00:27:54] Um, I also just wanted to read something that, um, the actor, uh, Camar de los Reyes, his, his best friend of another actor, Michael Easton. He posted this on his Instagram this past Christmas Eve. Thinking of my friend, Camar de los Reyes, who passed away one year ago today. Camar was a man of faith who never lost hope. He loved his wife and his children and their love for him was a life force that kept him going. He meant so much to so many.

[00:28:20] Millions of people knew Camar from television and movies and video games. I just knew him as my best friend, the best man at my wedding for 30 years. He was always there for me and my family. The nights seem a little darker now, but I know he's still with us. His light guiding us forward. This day reminds me that life is precious, fragile, and I am so grateful for every second I get to spend with the people I love. There's no greater gift than waking up to see the beauty of the world.

[00:28:48] I wish you and your families a beautiful holiday season and may this Christmas bring you peace and happiness. Yeah. It's lovely. That's that weight, that heaviness, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess I see a bit of what we both said in there, that part of giving that weight, that heaviness to someone else is to say, I cannot try to understand your will. I can just ask you to help me carry my burdens.

[00:29:18] Yeah. Yeah. Just a side note that the game Indiana Jones and the Great Circle, about which there was an episode released earlier this week in this very few- Which I still haven't played yet. I haven't played it. I haven't listened to the episode yet. But I, yeah, I want to catch up on that because I am, I am curious. I'm like, you would think like I'm a Star Wars girlie. You would think I would be more into Indiana Jones.

[00:29:41] But anyway, Kamar de los Reyes, he played a Branca in there, a character in that game. And so the game was dedicated to him and to Tony Todd, the original Candyman, who was also in there. So anyway, on that heavy note, let's take a quick pause here. And when we come back, we're going to come back a little lighter and talk about some other odds and ends from the episode. See you in a sec.

[00:30:09] When a carjacking turns into a double homicide, Vanessa sends Fisk's attache, Buck Cashman, to demand $1.8 million in restitution in the name of the man.

[00:30:39] Meanwhile, Fisk wants to bring young reporter BB into the fold to help him spin his version of the events going on around the city. So, yeah, one thing I am noticing is that the neighborhood of Red Hook is being mentioned a whole lot in this show. Yes, it is. Yes. That's where this truck jacking took place with the double murder. And it was also, Vanessa said, I think it was in the first episode, that neighborhood's off limits. We've heard some other references.

[00:31:09] Yeah, nobody does anything there. Seems like nobody's listening. Yeah. But it's also, yeah, is there a reason why that neighborhood's especially protected? And yeah, so we see Fisk in this episode. He's trying to avoid criminal activity because he's like, oh, I'm the new mayor of New York City. But Vanessa's like, I'm still trying to make that money. Like... Do you think she's really trying to make that money or she's just trying to keep that power?

[00:31:37] I mean, both? Aren't these kind of two sides of the same coin? Like, you know, she wanted to do that money laundering with that triptych, that art piece. Yeah. I think Vanessa's in love with the life. Yeah. But also, yeah. I mean, I think she, like, gets a high off of, you know... Yeah, I think she's enjoying the criminal life. Mm-hmm. I think the money's secondary at this point.

[00:32:06] I mean, it all goes together. Criminality is good. Because money is power in this world, especially in the US. Yeah, but they already got... What I'm saying is I think that she wants to be seen not just as wealthy and powerful, but as the person who commands respect. Mm-hmm. In a way that wealth does not command respect. Right. In a very street-level way. Mm-hmm.

[00:32:34] Like, you fuck with me and boom, this can happen. It's different. Yeah. And she... But she also seems to come from a more... I don't know. I mean, I guess... Do you think... Okay, so Fisk basically said she should just let the gangs kill each other. Yes. And she's like, no, let's, like, bring peace and all that. Do you think it's, A, because Fisk wants to...

[00:33:01] If people are fearful, then they buy into Fisk's whole shtick more? And B, I don't know. What do you think that's about? Yes. I think he wants the chaos. I think he wants the chaos that it will cause, that a war among the criminal entities would cause.

[00:33:22] Then he gets to wipe away all these, you know, potential nuisances or potential, you know, threats to his power. And, yeah, I think he wants that sort of chaos so then he can turn around to the city and say, look, look what I did. I saved you all from this. Only I can save you. Right. Only I can stop you. Typical gaslighting.

[00:33:49] If you let me do this, I'll be able to get rid of all of this. Right. And now he's like, so we see him and Vanessa kind of just growing apart physically. We see them sitting further and further apart whenever they're together. And then he turns to her when, you know, she says, like, I sent this guy to make an offer or to demand this money restitution for that truck jacking. And he looks at her and says, let's not fall into a place where I don't trust you.

[00:34:18] I was like, oh, damn. Man, if you don't know, you better ask somebody. My man Wilson, he had a drop of a down, baby. That man would turn. That man would turn. And those violent instincts can take over. Drop of a down. And that's what we just saw in that moment.

[00:34:45] Like, yo, I love you, but please don't make me have to do something that I don't ever want to do. So, okay, I'm going to ask a question that has Penguin spoilers built in. So if you don't want to hear that, skip ahead once or twice. But who do you think is worse? Him or Colin Farrell's Penguin? Do you think he's as bad as Penguin, I guess I should say? He's as bad.

[00:35:14] I don't think he can be worse than either one of them. I think they're both pretty bottom of the barrel. But he actually had love. I don't know. Like, she really did love him. Yeah. I'm sure part of her does still. Yeah, but he's still terrible. He's terrible. Yeah. Yeah, he's horrible.

[00:35:39] Whereas Penguin nurtured someone and then snuffed that life out in front of us. Yeah, Penguin's still kind of worse. You know? Yeah. He groomed someone only to snuff it out. Yeah, yeah. He is kind of worse. Yeah. Do you think, though, that Bebe, our young and troubled reporter, is drinking the Fisk Kool-Aid? No, no. Or playing him? The way she was looking at him when she sat across the table.

[00:36:09] Yeah? It was almost as if she was glaring at him. Okay. And that, to me, was like a sign that she's not really, what we're seeing is not really what's going on. Okay. I think there's something else happening. I, yeah, I hope she knows that he killed her uncle. There's something else happening. Yeah. Yeah. I'm worried about Bebe, though. I'm worried about Bebe. So am I. So am I. So am I.

[00:36:34] So am I. But we didn't see the other cop from last week. Yeah. I mean, maybe he's recovering at home. Yeah. He was the one who was reluctant. This was the real asshole guy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Recovering in the hospital somewhere. I don't know. Yeah.

[00:36:59] And we saw that, obviously, the person who shot White Tiger had the Punisher logo on his shirt. But we agree that there's no way that that's Frank Castle. Yeah. I can't see it being Frank Castle. I just can't. The Frank Castle copycats, for sure, on the police force. I mean, we saw in this episode at court, there was the cop who ordered the hit on Nicky Torres. He had he had the Punisher logo tattooed on his neck, but it had in the forehead and a U.S. flag.

[00:37:30] Yeah. I am going to be shocked if Wilson Fisk is not involved. Hmm. Hmm. I do have to say this show, though, it's giving the social media. It's a social political commentary that I really wanted from Captain America Brave New World. I wonder why that is. Because you mean because it's on TV or what? No. I mean, because maybe all the characters are really white and Captain America is black and

[00:37:58] they don't want to step into this landmine of an issue. Hmm. I mean, I guess they are. Yeah. In this show, it is more the secondary characters that are of color. But McDuffie and Cherry are both growing on me. I think they're coming into their own as characters. We're starting to see more about who they are rather than just the roles they play in Matt's life. Do you agree?

[00:38:26] I was cool with both of them in the first two episodes. They didn't need to grow on me. Like, I was already in tune with both of those characters. I didn't dislike them. No, I know you didn't dislike them. But now you're like, okay, they're doing more meatier stuff. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, I like the courtroom interaction with Matt and McDuffie, you know? And Cherry seems like he's going to be... I'm scared for Cherry.

[00:38:57] Yeah. No, I'm scared for Cherry. Yeah. Because, you know, Matt might be asking him to do some things that may not wind up good for him. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It'd be interesting to see Cherry and Frank Castle, the Punisher, interact. Mm-hmm. Because I have a feeling that they're coming from two totally different sides of the philosophical spectrum. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Interesting.

[00:39:27] I didn't think about that. By the way, so something we didn't mention last week, but that came up again this week, it's likely to... Why? No, for certain. It's going to start playing a bigger role. Just to point out a couple things. Last week, there was a very nervous-looking young man named Bastion who asked Heather, Matt's psychologist girlfriend, to sign a copy of her book, which we didn't talk about this. It's called Live Without Fear, A Guide to Confronting Trauma, which is like so...

[00:39:57] Daredevil is the man without fear, and he's literally confronting... Confronting... She's guiding him through confronting trauma right now, which she got him to talk about Foggy this episode. Right. Yeah, anyway. But anyway, this young man, Bastion, he looked very nervous. He asked Heather for her help, and she was like, oh, yeah, I'll make time for that, because it looks like you need it. So just pointing that out, we'll definitely see that come back.

[00:40:23] Also, we saw in that episode there was an artist in a black hoodie who was painting an anti-Fisk mural, which showed Fisk holding a copy of his own face as a mask. Basically, Fisk is a fake. And then we saw another mural this episode, and this episode was the Punisher logo, but instead of the American flag on the forehead, it had the word triggered on the forehead, and

[00:40:48] the teeth of the skull were dripping into an NYC skyline, and this one was signed Muse. So. Yeah, that's going to be wicked. Yeah. That's going to be wicked, because abuse storyline, that's some heavy ass shit right there, boy. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited.

[00:41:13] I hope that that's going to take center stage in the next arc. I don't know. I don't know. Do you have any more thoughts about this episode? No, just again, it's my favor of the first three. I am going to miss Hector Ayala very much for the remainder of the season. Huge impact for two episodes. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:41] And I'm interested to see if they somehow do sort of set up his niece as the next white tiger, if that's going to be a story at all in the following episodes, or if they're just going to leave it unsaid. And looking forward to next week. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll be back to cover episodes four and five together. We expect that will be another.

[00:42:11] It looks like they're dividing them up into two episode story arcs this season. Can I? Mm-hmm. And one last thing. You know, when we first heard about the courtroom, they were trying to make this a courtroom drama, blah, blah, blah. I was dead set against it. Like, this is not, and don't get me wrong, I'm still dead set against an entire season being in the courtroom, an entire season of Daredevil.

[00:42:38] But this was really well done. Yes. Yes. This was really well done. A very powerful and engrossing episode. So kudos to the people who I kind of shitted on for the thought process, because they did a really good job telling this particular story. Yeah. Well, I wonder how much the, I mean, it seems like they said a lot about a lighter tone, but it doesn't feel like the stuff they recorded had a lighter tone.

[00:43:08] At all. At all. So, yeah, it's hard to know what, you know, what actually did change. But I have to say, if this is the result right now, then I'm satisfied. Yes. But I still want Foggy back. Okay. So before the next Daredevil, you'll hear from us again after episode five. In the meantime, this weekend, we are talking your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man season

[00:43:36] one, which was a great fun season. Also featured a little Daredevil action. That was lots of fun. Yeah. And Wheel of Time coverage has begun. So I'm going to try to get this out tonight as we're recording and our first three episodes of coverage will drop in the morning because that's when the new season three comes out. And season three, it is by far the best. I'm very excited to see.

[00:44:05] I know the next episode four is going to be one of the most iconic things in all of the books. And I'm so excited. Okay. And I'm very proud of myself. I'm very proud of myself. I still haven't watched it. The 10-minute preview. I have not watched the preview. But you can watch the whole damn thing in the morning. Yes, exactly. And so we did already set up season passes for the Lorecast.

[00:44:30] We're doing weekly Lorecast extra episodes for the Wheel of Time and also season pass and maybe a couple other little extras we're talking about. And subscribers, of course, already get all of the season pass benefits and all the other extras, like including John's Millennial Madness 11 Z's this month where we are. It's neck and neck between Scott Pilgrim and Zoolander. Zoolander. I'm reading all the Scott Pilgrim books right now. Zoolander.

[00:45:00] Hands down. David's never seen Zoolander. So that's, yeah. We have to rectify that eventually. Zoolander. And yeah, in the link tree, you can find links to all the stuff about the season pass, all the stuff about for subscribers, and of course, all of the other affiliates on the network, including Radioactive Ramblings, is currently doing weekly breakdowns of Invincible. So I'm behind on Invincible, but it sounds like- Incredible season. Incredible season. I have so many good things to say about that show.

[00:45:30] I heard there's like a real one-two punch with Invincible this week and this Daredevil. So many good things to say about that show. So yeah, check out Radioactive Ramblings coverage of Invincible and all the other network affiliates. And also do come to check out our Discord. We have a Marvel forum under current shows right now with a chat for Daredevil and a bunch of other Marvel stuff and other stuff. And lots of interesting conversations going on there.

[00:45:57] Like Sub-Zero says, I'm very surprised that seemingly quote unquote regular guy got the jump on Hector. Isn't the amulet supposed to give him enhanced senses and such? What do you think? Um, I don't think he has a Spidey sense though. No. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's- He can just fight better. Yeah. He's more, he's stronger, faster, you know, more agile, but I don't think he has that Spidey sense. Okay. Yeah.

[00:46:27] But I'll double check. And Sub-Zero says, I don't think it was Frank Castle who killed him. I think there's a secret society of cops who are in love with the lore of the Punisher. They lost faith in the system and want to be judge, jury, executioner. They're using the Punisher as a symbol, but for sure Fisk is stoking the flames. When you have a mayor who vilifies superheroes and brands them enemies of the people, then these cops will feel more empowered to take action. Agree. Agree. Yeah. Well put. Well put.

[00:46:57] He says, ultimately, I think they sped this up to keep the story moving along. I do wish they'd at least given White Tiger one scene to show off his skills. RIP for both the character and the actor. And yeah, we basically only got, we got some like TV footage in the background when they're like, a vigilante White Tiger has been in action. But it's a shame indeed that we didn't get to see a real full fight with him. The stakes keep getting raised.

[00:47:25] In this episode, you saw both Fisk and Matt wanting, trying to do things above the board and quote unquote, trust the system. But I think we can all see where this is going. Eventually, both will be pushed to the breaking point. And I can't wait to see what happens. I love how they were always showing Fisk and Vanessa far apart at the breakfast table, therapist couch, et cetera. Great camera work. At some point, she's going to do something with the crime bosses that crosses the line in Fisk's eyes. And I'm so looking forward to seeing how that shakes out.

[00:47:57] I mean, Vanessa better tread carefully. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, I'm starting to get worried for Vanessa. And I'm definitely on her side of her Fisk's always. Hmm. Well, we want to hear your thoughts and feedback as well. Please do send your thoughts to MCU at the lorehounds.com. And we shall do as it shall always henceforth be known the reading of the names.

[00:48:24] And I have for that some sweet, sweet sounds of the Puerto Rican jungle. Thank you to our Discord server boosters. Aaron K. Tiller the Thriller. Dork of the Ninjas. Doove 71. Athena Adjalea. Tina. Let's do. Nancy M. Ghost of Perdition. Radioactive Richard. Thank you to all of our listeners. You make this possible. Thank you especially to our subscribers. And most of all to our highest tier of subscribers. Our lore masters. Samarshan. Michael G. Michelle E.

[00:48:54] Brian P. SC. Peter O.H. Bettina W. Adam S. Nancy M. Doove 71. Brian 8063. Frederick H. Sarah L. Garrett C. Matthew M. Sarah M. DJ Miwa. Andra B. Kwong Yu. Dead Eye Jedi Bob. Nathan T. Alex V. Sub Zero. Aaron K. Dally V. Mothership 61. Narls. Kathy W. Listu. Jeffrey B. Elisa Yu. Neil F. Ben B. Scott F. Steven N. Julia F. Kali S.

[00:49:24] Ilmariel. And always last, Adrian. Thank you all so much for being here today. The Lorehounds Podcast is produced and published by The Lorehounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds Podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds.

[00:49:51] Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Are you ready for a deep dive into one of the most intense animated series out there? Welcome to Radioactive Ramblings, where we are currently breaking down the world of Invincible.

[00:50:16] Each week, we're going to unpack the jaw-dropping twists, the unforgettable characters, and that trademark brutal action. From Mark Grayson's journey to the darker side of heroism, to our continued love of Debbie, we've got every moment covered. Mark, I don't want to hurt you. I'm not the one who's going to get hurt. You said you don't do threats. Yeah? Well, people change. Whether you're a longtime fan or just getting started, tune in to our exclusive takes, fan theories, and so much more.

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