Doctor Who - S02E03 - The Well

[00:00:00] Lord Vader, Operation Andor is underway. Excellent. If we release three episodes per week, the Lorehounds will never be able to cover every episode. The Imperial forces will crush the Rebellion before it begins. Standby. We're picking up something on our scanners. Echo Squadron reporting in. Delta Squadron on your left. Jango Squadron on your 6. With Imperial forces coming in fast, we're calling all Rebels to join the fight this season.

[00:00:27] Starting after the April 22nd premiere, you'll hear three full breakdowns for each week's episodes of Andor Season 2. Each podcast will be led by one of our squadron leaders, Alicia, David and Jon. We'll be bringing in new and familiar voices to fill out the roster. Search for The Lorehounds on any podcast platform to join us in a galaxy far, far away. And don't forget to check out our season pass for even more content like our Holocron bonus pods. It's good news for anyone, except Darth Vader.

[00:01:17] Welcome to the Sonic Screwcast, where the Lorehounds, your guides to all of time and space. I'm Jon, the man who sees something over your shoulder. And I'm Alicia, the entity always behind you. Welcome to our coverage of the BBC and Disney Plus' series, Doctor Who. We've got a lot of coverage of everything this season. And Doctor Who, for some reason, we're doing weekly. I mean, we're doing it because we like it. That's why we're doing it. I mean, and also we tend to have lighter conversations for this one that are shorter.

[00:01:48] Well, we did coverage of this season, last season, and the 60th anniversary specials. We have a dedicated Sonic Screwcast feed and we have the main Lorehounds feed. And of course, if you're a Patreon or Supercast subscriber, you get it all. What are we talking about today, Alicia? Today, we are talking about season two, episode three, The Well. And the official plot synopsis is, Far in the future, on a tough, brutal planet, a devastated mining colony has only one survivor.

[00:02:18] To discover the truth, the Doctor and Belinda must face. Absolute terror. So, what did you think of this one? I thought it was fantastic. I, you know, we talked about this off air a little bit, but I too, love a good Doctor Who horror episode. Like the first episode of season one, series one of New Who that really hooked me was The Empty Child. Yes. Where there was really like a very clear horror element.

[00:02:47] And I think Doctor Who really shines, especially New Who, really shines in horror. Mm-hmm. I agree. I agree. And actually, The Empty Child is one of the ones I want to bring up later. Um, but this one, yeah, it, I liked the, I wouldn't say it's like one of my favorite of the Doctor Who horror episodes, especially since I've gone back and watched a couple of them because of this.

[00:03:07] But it has sent me down this tinfoil hat rabbit hole that I saved a little section for us to discuss later, where we had it confirmed that within the episode that this is a sequel, a direct sequel to the episode Midnight. That's right. I got to see my husband for a moment. Yeah. From season four, episode 10. Um, but I have theories now that it's actually more than that.

[00:03:35] And I also noticed this one was co-written by Russell T Davies. So I was wondering, does that mean, does that mean it's like there's something central to the overarching plot line of the season with this one? Hmm. It's a good question. Or it could have been like, Hey Russ, what did you do during Midnight? And how can I be consistent with that? Hmm. Hmm. I don't know. I don't, I have no idea. Yeah, maybe that's true. Yeah. That's no, that is a good point because he wrote the first one. Maybe he gets credit for this as well. Yeah.

[00:04:05] Cause it's a, it's sort of a, an extension of it. They even play a little, little tiny clip of it. True. True. Yeah. Where you got to see. Yeah. Uh, your Favey. I think you're right though, that like, this is not the strongest horror episode. Like there, there are better ones for sure, but it was fun and it felt like a return to form. Because we didn't really get something like this in season one. Yeah. And they have, well, I guess we had the 76 yards. I really liked that one. Um, I think that's what it was called.

[00:04:35] Right. But anyway, um, they, this one, yeah, it had some chilling lines that we'll, we'll talk about. Uh, it, I think this was a really solid entry. Yeah, it was, it was, and maybe we'll get like a midnight trilogy. Like there'll be a third one. Cause we, we see the monster still around at the end. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And then, yeah, that goes into my tinfoil hat theory corner because I'm wondering if the monster plays a more significant role.

[00:05:02] And if this is a sequel to more than just the episode midnight. That could be. So I'm excited to hear your theories because I haven't had time to like go back into the archive of all these monsters. So you wrote out the synopsis for this. You want to lead us right into it? Uh, sure. So the doctor still can't get Belinda back to earth, but he believes that by using a triangulation like device called the vindicator, he can figure out a way around his block.

[00:05:28] That means unexpectedly joining an expedition to the surface of a dead planet 500,000 years into our future to discover why the mining colony there went silent. Inside they find 34 dead bodies, all either shot or broken. And one living woman, Alice Paba Fenley, who survived longer than the rest of the base due to being deaf and thus unable to hear the horrible mania inducing whispers of the creature that is always behind someone.

[00:05:57] Killing the person, the creature is behind only causes the creature to get behind you. And despite the doctor's usual outside the box thinking they can't shake this barely glimpsed being and they end up losing half the group until the expedition leader Shia. Cons. Cons. Cons. Cons. Cons. Cons. Cons. Cons.

[00:06:27] Cons. Cons. Cons. Cons. Cons. Cons. Cons. Cons. Cons.

[00:06:57] was about for people who... Oh, I can't do that right now. You got to do that one. I haven't watched it recently enough. All right. I did just watch it. I did just watch it. So, okay. So this is with the David Tennant's doctor and it was when Donna was his companion, but she didn't go with him on this trip. They're on the planet midnight, a planet covered in diamonds, but it's also being battered by extonic rays, or as they call it in this episode, galvanic rays.

[00:07:23] Um, so you can't step outside or you will like die immediately, but it's very pretty because of all the diamonds on the surface. So he's going on this sort of tourist day trip, uh, to see some diamond falls when they have to take a detour and they end up encountering an unseen entity that basically possesses members of, uh, this, the, the people who are taking this trip. Um, and they end up,

[00:07:52] it ends up like repeating after everyone and until it's actually predicting what people are saying and it keeps learning and getting more clever. And then, um, it almost gets the group to throw the doctor outside until a flight attendant of sorts, um, ends up taking the possessed woman and herself out, uh, instead. And so it's basically, it's about this unseen entity that's toying with them.

[00:08:22] So both times we get the sacrifice at the end to kill the entity that doesn't kill the entity, but does kill the person sacrificing. Yeah. If extonic rays don't kill it, then nothing will, I guess. It's really spooky. It's, it's really spooky, but the mechanic of this monster was very different this episode. Like it didn't take you over it. It, it, it seemed to like mess with people,

[00:08:49] but in, in less of a direct way in more of like a fear way. Right. Right. And this is why I wonder if it's linked to other episodes. So I'll say one of the episodes that I believe it might be linked to is listen, which is from, uh, season eight. This was a Capaldi and Clara episode and it's okay. So listen was written by Moffat by the way, but it's also

[00:09:18] about an unseen entity where the doctor, and in this episode that we're talking about now, the doctor says over and over, listen, this, listen, that could be nothing could be a wink and a nod to us, but within listen, they talk about this unseen entity. Although you get a glimpse of something kind of grayish, um, behind one of the characters at one point, but, and they say it's,

[00:09:43] you always feel the breath of something close behind you on your neck. And, um, yeah, it also involves visiting the last planet at the end of time. So I have a theory about wild blue yonder, which was the second 60th anniversary episode where they visit the edge of space and accidentally invite entities in from the void. So I'm wondering if these are all the same kind of entities and maybe they're tricksters playing with them linked to the Pantheon.

[00:10:14] Hmm. I like it. I like it. There's something there. And, and you also had the, uh, Suka, what is his name? Sutec. Thank you. Uh, thank you brain for finally working. Sutec dragged to the end of time too. So I wonder if, if there's some coordination happening. Hmm. Yeah. Yep. Yep. And you have, you have Lux all the way in every part of the universe too. So maybe

[00:10:41] the doctor's like, we are making them all dispersed and they can't harm anybody. And they're like, we can harm everybody now. Yeah. And we're now dispersed into all these kind of shadow beings. Right. Right. Hmm. Hmm. I like it. Yeah. Because this is by the way, so, um, the well is 400,000 years after, uh, midnight. So the creature might've evolved in many ways since then or creatures.

[00:11:12] Yeah. Um, I don't know the mechanics of this monster quite honestly, like where, where is it coming from? How does it survive without a host? Does it survive without a host? Yeah. How did they awaken it? I, there could have been a little bit more explanation here. Um, I think that maybe was like, like one of the, one of the things that was so charming about so many of these classic coup monsters is like this, like techno babble that's almost incoherent,

[00:11:41] but it makes sense if you're watching and we didn't get any of that here. Well, a little bit with the whole, so the monster apparently broke all the mirrors and then it says the thing, if the thing behind you always gets destroyed, what if the thing behind you was you and mercury mirrors reflect it? And that's how they like shake it for a second. But that whole, I have to say that whole part was with the mirrors and the mercury, that was a bit hazy to me and it ended up not really working. So I guess it doesn't really matter.

[00:12:09] Right. Yeah. It was, it was just a shot in the dark. Well, I guess two shots in the light. By the way, the creature is credited as it has no name. Um, I guess that's who did the whispers, but yeah, it was creepy when they talk about there's something behind me all the time. It can't be seen and it can't be stopped. Like, Ooh, that made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

[00:12:34] Yeah. And what a brilliant way to, you know, the first midnight episode, it's all about hearing what you say and repeating it back. Right. And what a beautiful way to turn that on its head by having a deaf character. Right. That that's being infected by this. And so she can't be completely taken over, but she can still be a vessel. Right. Yeah. Okay. So I have to admit, I went into this episode having a strong inkling. It might be a sequel to midnight because that was

[00:13:03] being discussed and all the doctor who boards ever since they had a, a teaser with the clock counting down to midnight. Like, well, you told us. Um, but yeah, so as soon as she was deaf, I was like, Oh, it's going to be something about her not being able to listen. That's why she's the only one who's still alive. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I too thought that, but then we did, I almost wish we had had like a little bit of the repeating thing back just to like connect those

[00:13:33] monsters a little bit more. Yeah. I mean, I guess he, what he said, he said something came out of the well and they said it was laughing. And then the doctor was talking about when he's like, Oh, when I was on midnight, I remember it was toying with me, you know? So it's sort of, it's an entity that's playing with him somehow a trickster, a trickster by the way, is, uh, one of the Pantheon members who, but yeah, Neil Patrick Harris again,

[00:14:03] he's just going to pop out of a well. But also I was thinking, um, he actually would not remember the events of listen, I guess, because when Clara, Clara was his companion at the time. And when she left, she had to erase his memory for reasons. I forget the specifics. So he wouldn't remember right. Her, his adventures with her. Is that how that works? Uh, yes, but they were given back to him later. Oh, they were. Okay. Okay.

[00:14:30] Remember Bill became some kind of like ethereal being like, here's my gift to you. And then give him back his Clara memories. Okay. All right. Nevermind. Strike that. So he remembers eventually. He did keep saying in this episode, listen, listen. Yeah, he did. I didn't need the extra meaning of midnight. Like if you go behind or you die, if it was a clock face, you die at midnight. Like that's a little on the nose. Yes. I agree with that. Like they clearly did not take that into account when naming the planet.

[00:15:00] Like, come on doc. Yeah. Come on. And also, I don't know what you think, but throwing didn't look that leaf lethal to me. Like you might get a broken bone or two, but maybe your neck snaps at the wrong angle. I agree with that. The, the guy who tried to take good charge, is that Casio? I mean, what, what a dummy. Like he got so many people killed just because he's like, oh, I want to be in charge. Yeah.

[00:15:28] And also like it, it feels very weak to be able to mutiny with two people. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Like if he can declare code red with one second, then can't like the rest of the group override him immediately. I just, that does seem like horrible organization. Yeah. Yeah. And he immediately from the jump wanted to shoot and kill the first sign of trouble.

[00:15:53] So I was not upset with Shia when she, when she took him out, she said I had to, he was out of control. And like, that's what it turns us into. I'm like, no, I'm pretty sure his behavior, literally getting half your squad killed single-handedly. Yep. That's what turned her into that. Yeah. I mean, that's an easy trolley problem because he, you know, the trolley problem, the whole point is like,

[00:16:18] are you going to let four people die who were innocent or rather one person who is innocent or four people die who were doing it on purpose, right? Who were like breaking the rule on purpose. Well, yeah. I mean, that adds another wrinkle to it, but yeah. No. Yeah. I'm, I'm kind of recounting the trolley problem terribly right now, but my point is he put himself and other people in danger. And so I think this is a much easier trolley problem.

[00:16:46] Yes. The other people stop dying if you kill this one person. Hmm. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, the doctor, I don't want him like to go shoot the guy. Like that's, that's not the doctor. But although I did just see an edit of Peter Capaldi's doctor on TikTok, I saw an edit of him going, look me up in the fatality register. Well, you have an entry as much as anybody else. He goes under cause of death. I love it. Great stuff.

[00:17:16] I knew, but like, I think the doctor should have been like a little bit more okay with that, right? Like you did what you had to do.

[00:17:22] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, I guess this is why Shia felt she had to take herself out or something, but I knew as soon as she was introduced and we got the whole backstory about being brought up in the wild lands, shooting draft sharks, sharks. And she was drought sharks. And she was six and she can run faster than a snake lighter. Join the forces at age 18 or sorry, 14.

[00:17:48] Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, okay, we're getting this, this nice exposition backstory because she's going to die by the end of the episode. It may be because I just watched most of devil may cry on Netflix, but this, this orphaned soldier, orphan child soldier into like crazy good adult soldier. The trope is getting tired for me. It's not the first time I've seen it in either of these, but I'm, I'm getting a little sick of it. Yeah, no, that's fair. That's fair.

[00:18:19] Like that's not the only path to success out of an orphanage. Like you don't have to go get really good at killing people. Yeah. Yep. Well, I have, okay, I have one more gripe and then I'm going to say nice things. Okay. My one more gripe is the whole thing with their suits. Like as soon as they took off their suits, when they get inside, I'm like, why would you take your suits off?

[00:18:41] And they gave like this really half, like, we don't want the style. Um, you know, we, I don't, whatever they said. And then at the end of the episode, it's, we should have never unsuited babes. Like, duh, what are you doing? And the babes, I thought of the soldier going like, I'm going to HR. Stop calling you babes. I mean, if it wasn't that jerk, I might've felt worse. Yeah. Right.

[00:19:08] Um, yeah, I, I also was a little bit confused as to why the doctor's costuming worked perfectly with like the space equipment. Like why did the, why did the helmet go perfectly onto the suit that he put on? Yeah. Does, does the TARDIS just like generate a clothing match to their destination? Because why did their suit match exactly everyone else? Exactly. I'm happy to accept that. Right. But, but tell me that a little bit. Yeah.

[00:19:36] I did enjoy the toxic, uh, by Britney Spears. Right. They were, they're really, RTD is going for like the nineties and two thousands hits with spice up your life in the 60th anniversary specials. Toxic now. This is great. I'm in. Yeah. Uh, so also Belinda was talking about, she likes to do karaoke or whatever. And, um, the doctor said that he would join her sometime. So I'm definitely expecting that to happen this season at some point.

[00:20:05] Have you, have you been seeing the complaints that he's crying too much this season? Like that he'd been crying too much the whole time? Like, like I, I've seen this complaint that I've actually started to agree with a little bit, which is like, it's good that the doctor showing more emotion. But if you're crying every single minute of like once a day, I, I, that might be not emotionally healthy. You know, like that's, that's actually the opposite end of the spectrum.

[00:20:31] I, I did know that this time it was a tear of fear. It felt like, but, um, I, I, I do. That's what I was going to say is like, I do think this was materially different, but I do wonder if it's going to be a plot point. Just the fact that it literally is, it's something like we know we're going to see Mrs. Flood every episode. And we know that we're going to see a tear from the doctor every episode. I guess the first two seasons were just simulations.

[00:21:00] I mean, maybe it's a story for this. I don't know. Maybe this ties into the larger story. We'll see. We'll see. Um, I did, I did like at the beginning how they, I thought it was charming. Like the banter. I feel like the doctor and Belinda are a really good match and, um, I'm looking forward to more from them, but also just their, the way they kind of team up against other people.

[00:21:23] Like, is this a test? Yes. And that was a great way to set up an ex, an exposition dump, you know? Yes, it's a test. We need you to tell us all of the details about your mission in this planet and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. I think one of the complaints that I had about Ruby Sunday was she does, she's very gung ho and that's good. But then we have two very similar characters for doctor and companion. And we already did that with, with, uh, Capaldi and, uh, and Clara.

[00:21:53] Mm-hmm. I, I, I think it worked for a while, but it's nice to have a change up. Yeah. I mean, I just recently, um, rewatched listen because of this episode, which is Capaldi and Clara. And I really liked their dynamic actually. And I know some people are like, Oh, she's bossy, but I think that really works, especially with Capaldi's version of the doctor. I also agree. And I don't understand the Clara hate out there. No. She did. Clara has done nothing wrong. Well, that's not true.

[00:22:23] Exactly. Uh, but Clara is a very fun companion to watch. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Exactly. The Raven thing was a little stupid from Clara. That's why I backed off. Okay. Okay. Sure. Sure. Sure. Fair. Fair. Um, I, I did like Alice this episode. I thought there, she was an interesting character because even though I clocked from the beginning, Oh, she saved from this entity, you know, driving her mad because she's deaf.

[00:22:48] Um, still I had moments of doubt where just the way that they directed and with the music and stuff, you're like, I don't know. Is she, you know, it turns out she was lying, but, uh, you have doubts of like, is she actually a villain of some sort? Um, and I liked, you know, this is very on the nose doctor who woke, if you want to call it whatever, but I liked that he used sign language. Uh, whereas the soldiers use these impersonal subtitles.

[00:23:18] Uh, we learned that in this time, a nurse who can't sign is against the law. Every medical professional needs to learn sign language, which I think is lovely. Uh, but then still, despite this being the norms, um, he still gets reprimanded for having a private conversation with her. And he says, doesn't matter the year signing still makes some people paranoid. And it just makes me think of a lot of times if, uh, if people just hear people speaking another language, they always assume the worst.

[00:23:48] Like, Oh, they're saying horrible things about me. And it's just like, what time should we go for dinner? You know? Right, right, right. Right. I've, I've heard literally exactly one story of, of a, a person, I think it was a teacher telling me about how she was with a friend who, who spoke the foreign language and they didn't know that people in like the hair salon were speaking a foreign language and like talking crap about them. I've heard that happen exactly once. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:15] And I'm sure, I'm sure, look, people are mean sometimes. Like, I'm sure it happens every now and then too, but it's not different than somebody like whispering about you or texting about you. I, I did catch people once because they were speaking Dutch about me, which is cute. Um, so I responded to them in Dutch and it was funny.

[00:24:34] Um, but for the most parts, like, I, I remember I have someone with me who was like, uh, visiting from the U S and we were just walking down the street and an older man walked by and in like a grumpy older man way. He just said, who the morgan? And she's like, what was that? Like, he just said, good morning. But it was just paranoia. It does sound, it's very guttural. That does sound that. Yeah.

[00:25:00] I, every time I read something, I hear something in German, I'm like, that sounds like you're very angry at me, but you're not. I know you're not. It's okay. There's just a lot of phlegm there. I mean, yeah, it's, it's a wet climate. What can we do? But yeah, I, I mean, really, they got me not only with like a little chills this episode though, but they did get me with the emotion. Like at one point, um, they turn their backs to talk about her, which I was like, that's awful. And she just, the actress is quite good.

[00:25:29] She's like, don't turn your back on me, please. Like, oh, she touched me with that. I thought that was great. I mean, because you'll often see people with, with disabilities portrayed in more of like a helpless way in media. And this is someone who is absolutely not helpless. This is a person with agency. This is a person who saved herself from being attacked and, and ends up going back to her children and her, and her family because she had the will to survive.

[00:25:59] And I like that her deafness saved her, you know, because this is, because such, you know, different abilities are often seen as a negative where sometimes there is positives to it. It's like you and I, you know, we talk about ADHD and it can be definitely a negative that you have to learn how to work with. But it also, it has its pros too, where it generates certain types of thinking and different perspectives. And yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:30] Yeah. Neurodivergence and difference in physical abilities all give diversity to thought and diversity to ability that makes our society more interesting and more capable. And it can protect you from whispering monsters. Apparently, you know, it's something that I never thought about until now, but, but sure. Yeah.

[00:26:53] And so it's as we suspected, I think, since we saw the Eiffel Tower and stuff floating through space, but Earth seems to be gone in this alternate timeline. Now, all right. So let me, let me put something past you here. The doctor now knows Earth is gone at this time. Does that mean he has to create a paradox to go back and save it?

[00:27:22] Or are we going to paper over that like we usually do? Well, that's also a question. Like, did he somehow jump to a different universe where it's gone? That's a good question. I just don't even know. Because like sometimes they make a big deal of like, oh, once he knows somebody's dead, he can't go back and save them. Right. But, but now if he knows a planet's dead, can he go back and save the planet? I don't know.

[00:27:46] I, I, again, I'm going to pull up the Matt Smith quote and say, uh, the paradoxes will largely work themselves out. Right. And what did you think of this Mrs. Flood sighting? I very confused. I'm just so confused. I, I want to know. I, I think it's been long enough that if they don't tell us this season, I'm going to be screaming at my TV.

[00:28:10] I mean, they have to, they're setting that up as like, and I think we're going to find out on the penultimate episode because that was the day she said the show is over. Oh, right, right. Okay. Yeah. All right. I mean, she's, she's glad that he's carrying the vindicator. So, okay. Uh, I guess, I mean, I'm still with, she's a storyteller. I would like that. I would like that. I don't think she's Susan. I wish she were Susan because I want Susan back.

[00:28:41] Yeah. It's not going to happen. But yeah, who knows? Who knows? Right. It's not going to happen. I, I actually read an interesting opinion the other day about like why they haven't brought back Susan. And one of the reasons people say is like, she was kind of from like the pilot of Dr. Who in the sense that like at the time she was the doctor's companion, he was still supposed to be human in the writer's heads and whatnot. And so it was, and, and also she was a teenager. Is she his actual biological granddaughter? Is she not?

[00:29:10] Is she just like an adopted kid? I don't know. I don't know. I think of the, the death universe in, in, um, Discworld. I don't know if you've read those books. But this idea of like his, his granddaughter by adoption can still like inherit his powers. Right. Right. I just, um, know that Hogfather one, I finally watched the movie because you and Marilyn covered it. Okay. Well, she was in that. Susan was in that. Yes, exactly. Exactly. The other Susan. Yeah. Right.

[00:29:39] All right, Alicia, before you put on your tinfoil hat, do you want to take a break? Let's do it. We're back. Have you donned your hat, Alicia? Do you hear the crinkle crinkle? No.

[00:30:09] Um, but you, you were talking about, you know, Susan and the, yeah, his, the doctor's granddaughter, for anyone who doesn't know who he abandoned. Was it at the edge of space also? No, it was in, I think maybe the 22nd or the 24th century on earth. It was essentially, there was a Dalek invasion and the Daleks were ruling earth and then they helped the rebels defeat the Daleks. And then she like fell in love with a guy in that time. And she's like, Oh, but I have to go back with my grandfather.

[00:30:38] And he locks her out of the Tardis and is like, Susan, I'll come back for you one day, but you deserve your own life. And then he just nopes out. Yeah. Okay. So I noticed while I was rewatching, listen, that at one point he like puts his finger on a kid's head and just like the kid just immediately goes to sleep. And he says, dad skills. Yeah. So, cause the question is, is if Susan is his granddaughter, who's, who's his child, you know?

[00:31:06] Well, didn't they address that last season where he's like, Oh, you can have, you know, time Lord, you can have people out of order. So he doesn't have children. I think they made that. Yeah, they did that. Yeah. They did that. I don't know that I agree with that. Ah, we roll it back. Okay. Yeah. I don't know. That's not what I took away. Okay. I, I, I read it as he doesn't have his children yet. And Susan, he got her like out of time.

[00:31:35] Hmm. I mean, that's definitely possible with, uh, him being a time Lord. Yeah. Right. That could definitely make sense. That could definitely make sense. But okay. So listen, I said the thing about like the breath of something else behind you, that sort of grayish entity seen over a character's shoulder. Um, and they also, as I said, they go to the end of, of time, the last planet. And there's knocks, three knocks on the door and he lets them in.

[00:32:03] There was also knocks in midnight where the entities first knocking on the outside of their transport. First two knocks and then imitating three and four knocks, which also four knocks brings me to the whole, uh, end of David Tennant. Where that was something completely different. But anyway, um, but yeah. And he says in listen, end of the universe, nobody out there is one way of looking at it. The other, that's a hell of a lot of ghosts. So I don't know that I just see a lot of similarities between these entities.

[00:32:33] So then I went down this rabbit hole of looking for stories that involve similarly unseen entities that play mind games, sometimes possessing people or stories that touch on the end of time or the edge of the universe. Um, interestingly, a lot of them involve the master, which is still stuck in a gold tooth. I think the master is. Uh, so I don't know. I'm going to run some by you and see what you think.

[00:33:01] So there's listen and wild blue yonder are two because while blue yonder, that was again, he and Donna get possessed or take or copycatted. Yeah. By these entities. Yeah. Um, you brought up the empty child. Yes. Uh, the empty child where the alien medical entity is like trying to heal a dead child and like puts the gas mask on everybody.

[00:33:29] Like learns how to heal based on this dead child with the gas mask. So turning everybody into zombies, basically. Yeah. I mean, maybe that one's a stretch. It's a season one episode, by the way. But yeah, I'm not sure about that one. That's a medical threat. Like that was eventually helpful. Right. It did. And it actually ended up healing everybody because of love. Yeah. I mean, maybe can accident. But anyway, there's also the unquiet dead from season one where there's like this gelf entity that possesses dead bodies. Mm hmm.

[00:33:56] Um, in there's some Amy Pond stories that are interesting, like night terrors where there's these menacingly playful dolls. They're like haunted dolls, torturing them. Um, in silence in the library and forest of the dead in the, uh, season four in the Donna era, there's something called the Vastia Narada lurking in the dark. My favorite villain. One of them. Yeah.

[00:34:22] But it's another one that's like a shadow entity, even though it's kind of also like a nano creature. And that's another one where David Tennant's doctor goes, look me up. Yeah. I love when the doctor like pulls. Yeah, exactly. He's like, do you know who I am? Because of the rest of the universe does. I've been around baby babes. Babes.

[00:34:47] Um, the waters of Mars, there's the flood entity that possesses people when they take it in. I don't know. Some of these are stretches, but I'm going to be rewatching all of these episodes. Also Utopia, which is with the season three, 10th doctor and Martha ended the universe. There's, um, the master is there. And that one, Jack Harkness is there a bunch of, of enemies of the doctor.

[00:35:11] And then I went down a rabbit hole of thinking, what if the song contest episode is where Jonathan Groff returns because he can sing in real life. We need rogue back. That was a great character. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. And I don't think we're getting Jack Harkness back at this point and nor would he be age appropriate with the doctor anyway. Mm hmm. Yeah. But also, I mean, yeah, yeah. There's, there's real life John Barrowman reasons.

[00:35:39] He might not come back, but I did like the character and I would be okay with being like thousands of years later in his lifetime. And he's like, oh, hey doc. Yeah. Because he does age. We know he ages. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Just slowly. Very slowly. Mm hmm. Yeah. I would look, I wouldn't mind having, I don't really know. I know there's stuff around him, but I don't really know what it is, but he always, I don't know. I don't want to say it's icky, but it's like mid tier on the icky scale. I'll say. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

[00:36:09] But I would also like to see him back. I was always a fan. They, by the way, they've also had him back since those allegations. Okay. In the, in the 13th doctor's era. Okay. Okay. Okay. Um, I want to bring up another episode that you brought up recently. The doctor's wife where, uh, in season six, the TARDIS becomes human when they visit another universe in the house plays mind games and eats TARDISes. You said you wanted a human TARDIS again, right?

[00:36:38] Or to address it. I, I would like that, but, you know, I don't want them to make the TARDIS human again, but I would like more like the doctor talking to the TARDIS and, you know, a little, a little like TARDIS-y back and forth. Mm hmm. Okay. All right. Yeah. And then I just started like, how does this hook into the Pantheon? There's the whisper men who look a lot like the trickster and they're the whisper men were in the name of the doctor in season seven.

[00:37:06] Also in classic who they name dropped last season, the Mara, these like snake possessing snake spirits as a member of the Pantheon. And, uh, they were from classic who season 19. So. I don't, I think there's a, we'll see, we'll see if this develops, but, uh, this is going to be my. I watch list over the next. I don't know. Season. That's fun. Yeah. I'm, I'm actually going through classic who right now. So you do that.

[00:37:35] I'll do some classic stuff. Uh, where are you in classic who? I am in season 10, I believe, uh, which is John Pertwee's era third doctor. And it's, it's a lot of fun. He's very Matt Smithy. Okay. He's got, he's got a little bit of energy, but he dresses like a magician and he's very sassy. Okay. And he's stranded on earth because I think it's actually because they had budget cuts. So they stranded him on earth so they wouldn't have to do other planets for a while.

[00:38:05] Yeah. I someday I'll start at the beginning of classic who, but for now I'm at least going to watch that one with Amara. Kinda from season 19. Nice. Yeah. I have like two more seasons and then I go into, uh, into the guy everybody loves Tom Baker. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious. I've never watched a Tom Baker episode, but people talk about him all the time. I watched the, the, um, pyramids of Mars last season in prep for the Sue tech episode.

[00:38:33] And honestly, very good, very good episode. And a very good brother. The way they did it back then, it was, it was serials. So it would be like four episodes to six episodes would be one story. And they were all like 25 minute episodes. Right. Oh, and by the way, we should say, uh, we didn't, um, we're not in a fight with Ian and that's, we're not missing our Brit because of that. He just had a busy week. So. Right. Now you had me thinking of the stories I've watched with, um, classic who and trying to

[00:39:03] think if there were any, like, see, like, you know, non entities. Yeah. Non-corporal. Whatever. Tricksters. I don't think so. Um, I'm up, I'm up to the master at least. Oh, nice. I saw, um, yeah, I watched the first appearances of the master and it is just, it is amazing what kind of different budget they were dealing with than Star Trek at that time. Yeah. Oh my God.

[00:39:31] There's, there's some monsters that make you go, whoo. I just got to, I'm on this arc right now where there's like this horrendous looking alien that has like one eye. And then when it talks, it just talks like this. It's just like someone in a falsetto. And I was like, what is happening? In the arc where the master first appears, they literally fight a plastic chair at one point. Just like, Oh, I'm being eaten by the plastic.

[00:40:01] Oh, it's so bad. All right. Well, they walked so Mickey could run. Exactly. Well, we've got, we've got quite a lot in this episode, but I think, I think I've said all I want to say. We don't, it's, it's not that much pot, right? It's just, it's more like fun to speculate with everything. Yeah. Yeah. And more, I mean, I enjoyed this episode. I didn't enjoy it as much as last week, but I think last week was a really good one,

[00:40:28] you know, but it, it got me thinking in fun ways and it got me excited about going back and watching old episodes. So that's great. Yeah, me too. I, you know, I, I always, every time there's new doctor who I get a, I get on a kick and I start rewatching all the old stuff. And, uh, I, I am glad that I'm on classic who now because it's all new to me, but eventually I'm going to go back to the 2005 series again. Yeah.

[00:40:56] But I rewatched it all ahead of the 60th, basically. I think I finished it like right after the 60th. I'm usually not one to watch episodes out of order, but, um, I just started doing that recently and I find it works just fine. Like every once in a while I'm like, Oh wait, Rose popped up. And then I look it up. I'm like, Oh, right. That was right before this plot arc. Okay. Uh, but most of the, most of the time they stand on their own. Yeah. I'm surprised we haven't had Rose back in so long. Yeah, I know. I know.

[00:41:26] I mean, I guess it's, I do respect it though, because you don't want to overplay that one. Like, I don't think. They did overplay it for a while. Yeah. And I think that's why we haven't seen her for a while. Yeah. The 50th might've been like a little bit too far. Like having, having her up here for the war doctor. You're like, that doesn't really make sense. Speaking of Clara, I'd love to see Clara back with her diner flying through the sky. Yeah.

[00:41:54] Well, if they don't cancel the show, maybe, maybe we'll get like a spinoff of them. Right. Right. Yeah. Now, I'm going to be honest. I don't think Maisie Williams was the right cast for that role. Really? Why not? I don't love it. I just, I just didn't love the performance. I didn't think it fit. Okay. But yeah, it is what it is. We got her. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, I would love to have that story back. Yeah. I think that'd be fun. The flying diner. Mm-hmm.

[00:42:24] Exactly. Well, we've got, so we don't have any feedback this week, but if you want to send in feedback, go to TARDIS at the Lorehounds dot com and send us an email or, you know, Lorehounds at the Lorehounds dot com. There's a contact form on the website. Plenty of ways to get in contact with us. Or join our Discord for real-time fun thoughts. Yeah. Then you could see my rabbit hole theory developing in real-time.

[00:42:54] Do you want to, do you want to give a spoiler, a warning before we talk about next episode? Sure. I mean, there's not much to say. Just, I mean, the thing is that they play the preview for next episode right at the start of the Doctor Who credits. So they're- Yeah, they do. It's pretty hard to avoid. But just in case, skip forward once, just in case you don't want to know. It's called Lucky Day and it looks like Ruby Sunday's back. So I guess they get back to Earth?

[00:43:23] I guess so. What if it's Ruby, but it's before she met the Doctor? Hmm. Okay. I'd be down for that too. Although I did hear something that she was going to be like looking into her father this season or something. Hmm. Yeah. Because she just met her mom last season, right? Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. I don't know because they did leave it off very open-ended last season with her. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:43:52] I wonder how much of her, I'm glad they're bringing her in relatively early in the season. It's good they gave the Doctor and Belinda some time on their own. But I do wonder, is this going to be like a one-off thing? Or is she going to be around more again? Or yeah. What are they doing with her? Yeah. Maybe I could see seeing that Ruby's fine after spending a bunch of time with the Doctor may convince Belinda to go with him for longer. Hmm. Okay. That's fair. Yeah.

[00:44:21] I just dropped her off. We figured out her mom and then we just went our separate ways. Yeah. And Belinda's like, okay. Like it is literally a time machine. I can take you back. Although Belinda will age. Yeah. Exactly. Well, you've got Daredevil going on. You did the wrap up, right? Yeah. So Daredevil's over. Wheel of Time, we just have our mailbag episode and one little extra mini

[00:44:48] Carathon cycle audio drama sort of thing for subscribers. And the last of us and Andor are just starting. But Andor is going to fly by. I mean, like we already did a week of coverage. We did that squadron style. That was a lot of fun. I honestly like this was a fun idea we had. And the execution is fire. Like I'm listening to you and David's podcast. And great, great stuff.

[00:45:16] And if you, you know, if you heard Ian last week on the Doctor Who pod, you want to hear more of Alicia and Ian. Listen to Andor episode two. Right. Yeah. He's going to be my co-pilot two weeks in a row. Oh, that's right. Right. Because we had to sub in. Right. Yeah. I think that's the only repeat team up. There's a few. Oh, actually. No, you're right. Of just the same two people. Yeah. I think you're right, actually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But so far, the season's off to a great start with Andor and The Last of Us.

[00:45:46] The thing happened. Well, I shouldn't say that. A thing happened in the last episode that a lot of people were talking about. I think that's fair. Yeah. Okay. All right. So you can get all of that ad free. You can get bonus episodes for a lot of this stuff on the Patreon or Supercast, the recurring subscription. We have season passes for Andor as well. Make sure you check out the affiliates. Can you tell us about the affiliates, Alicia? Sure.

[00:46:14] So we have Nevermind the Music, where psychology meets music. And they're always putting out regular episodes where you learn new things about the brain and about the breakdown of how songs are made. We have Radioactive Ramblings, which is they've been doing Ghibli coverage. And I think they have some other things in the works, too. Well, yeah, stay tuned there, especially animation fans.

[00:46:40] And we have Wool Shift Dust is we're going to be getting back into Dune right after Andor. And the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast, I am releasing the Rebel Squadron radio extras for the Canon Padawan people. But also I have a bunch of other episodes planned and lined up for the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast. We are still diving into the High Republic. And yeah, we have Rings and Rituals. I think they'll do season two soon.

[00:47:10] We have Rings of Power coverage. We have, sorry, I'm doing this off the top of my head. We have Properly Howard. I think they're going to start a new movie review season soon. Something with Kevin Bacon, I think I heard David say. And who did I forget? Radioactive Ramblings? Did you do that? Yeah, I said that. Oh, you did do that. Yeah. Well, sorry, whoever forgot. And Severance. Oh, Severance is over. Severance is long gone. Yeah. Yeah, it's only a month in the past.

[00:47:40] I wish that. It's long gone. So we figured out that they are releasing all this stuff on top of each other because of for to be qualified for the Emmys. But I wish they gave us time to linger in each of these shows. Like, I still want to be excited about Severance and the Wheel of Time and stuff. But nope, it's time to move on. I have purged my brain of so many things already this year. It's over. It's over. Severance, I haven't thought about in two weeks.

[00:48:09] Wheel of Time is barely hanging on now. You have to do one more episode. I know. That's why it's barely hanging on. Otherwise, I would be purging that too for a minute. But there's so much lore at all of these things. I need to keep my brain together. Yeah, I know. I know. So I'm looking forward to a quieter main June with maybe some murder. We're going on a lorcation. Are we? Okay. All right. Our Discord server boosters.

[00:48:40] Aaron K. Tiller the Thriller. Dork of the Ninjas. Do 71. Athena A. Tina Lestu. Nancy M. Ghost of Perdition. And Radioactive Richard. Thank you so much for all your help. Keeping the Discord server with its special features. And our lore masters. Samarshan. Michael G. Michelle E. Brian E. S. C. Peter O. H. Adam S. Nancy M. Do 71. Brian 8063. Frederick H. Sarah L. Gareth C. Matthew M. Sarah M. DJ Miwa. Andra B. Kwong Yu. Dead Eye Jedi Bob. Nathan T. Alex V.

[00:49:09] Sub Zero. Aaron K. Dally V. Mothership 61. Gnarles. Kathy W. Lestu. Jeffrey B. Elisa U. Neil F. Ben B. Scott F. Steven N. Julia F. Kali S. Il Mariel. Forward slash Tim. And Adrian. Thank you everyone for listening and supporting the show. Whether you're a subscriber or not. And we'll see you for more Adventures in the TARDIS. Next week. Don't look behind you.

[00:49:37] The Lorehounds Podcast is produced and published by The Lorehounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and add free access to all Lorehounds Podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening. Hey Mark. I was listening to Paramore the other day and it really made me think about the amygdala and the limbic system. You just made those words up, didn't you?

[00:50:07] What? Paramore? We're the Nevermind the Music Podcast. Where one musician. And one psychologist. Talk songwriting and the mind. One song at a time. We'll hear everything from Green Day and Outkast. To Stevie Wonder and Dua Lipa. And we mostly try to stay on topic. Except for when we don't want to. Nevermind the Music wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.