Doctor Who - S02E05 - The Story and the Engine

[00:00:01] Hey Mark, I was listening to Paramore the other day and it really made me think about the amygdala and the limbic system. You just made those words up, didn't you? What, Paramore? We're the Nevermind the Music Podcast, where one musician and one psychologist talk songwriting and the mind, one song at a time. We'll hear everything from Green Day and OutKast to Stevie Wonder and Dua Lipa. And we mostly try to stay on topic. Except for when we don't want to. Nevermind the Music, wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:00:47] Welcome to the Sonic Screwcast, where the Lorehounds, your guides to all of time and space. I'm John Holder of the Sonic Barber Clippers. And I'm Alicia, the Spider's Daughter. Welcome to our coverage of the BBC and Disney Plus series, Doctor Who. You've been waiting a long time to use that title, haven't you? Mogedian would be proud. First Wheel of Time reference of the day. And not the last. Okay. Check out our past coverage.

[00:01:13] We did a lot of stuff, you know, this season, last season, the 60th anniversary specials. We have a dedicated Sonic Screwcast feed, but you can also find more coverage from the Lorehounds on the main Lorehounds feed in the link tree in the show notes. And yeah, today we're here to talk about season two, episode five, the story and the engine and spoilers. Spoilers for everything Doctor Who, basically. I've even started, I started watching the Sarah Jane adventures. Oh, did you?

[00:01:43] I'm glad that we're covering different ground. Yeah, yeah, that's true. We'll bring together expertise. Yeah, because there's that trickster story in there that I've always wanted to see. And then I'm like, okay, well, watch the pilot to like get the premise. And then I'm like, nah, I'm just going to watch the whole thing. You know, it's hokey and dated, but charming. Yeah, I always expected it to be that. And I was like, you know, when I was 19, I didn't want something like that when I was first watching Doctor Who. Now I think I'd enjoy it. Yeah.

[00:02:12] You kind of grow back into liking cheesy stuff. I know, it's true. Life's hard enough. Although I was surprised that there was a surprisingly dark moment in the first episode arc where the Slothenes show up, which are these, I don't know, alien creatures who at one point impersonated the prime minister in the main Doctor Who show. But yeah. Yeah. So this, this takes place after that.

[00:02:40] I know because they made a reference to that and they kill a Slothene child and Sarah Jane is like, he was only 12. Like, damn, that's kind of dark. Doctor Who does that though. It's like. Yeah. Like a fun little show. And then it's just like, and then he committed genocide. I mean, yeah, that makes me think of Star Wars. Oh, chopper. Oh, chopper. Poor chopper, the or criminal. All right.

[00:03:07] Um, the official plot synopsis. You want to give it to us? In Lagos, the mysterious barber reigns supreme. The Doctor discovers a world where stories have power, but can he stop the spider and its deadly web of revenge? So what'd you think of this episode? Uh, I, I thought it was really unique and I love seeing the Doctor go outside of England and America.

[00:03:35] Like, or I should say the UK and America. Cause he goes, he goes to Wales quite a lot. Uh, but I, I, I was, I thought it was a little clunky at times, but then I really liked the mythology that it brought in. I liked what we were going with. You know, Anansi, that was super cool. I, I, I, the space spider. I was like, I don't know if I liked that. But then when we got to Anansi, I was like, oh, that's cool. That's a cool little symbolic thing.

[00:04:00] Um, and I did like that this was not a Pantheon person because I, I feel like we're almost doing too many. And like, why are they all showing up all at the same time? But I, I'm glad that this was just like a guy who, and, and like, we didn't really get an explanation about how he like transcended mortality, but I'm okay with that. Like, you know. Yeah. This is a different Pantheon of Earth gods, I suppose. He's, he's the creator of the Pantheon of Earth gods. Yeah.

[00:04:29] Or at least, yeah, he helped fuel them. And that's, you know, I, um, storytelling is something that I've always been interested in since. And so the storytelling gods were always my favorites. So, um, you know, already brought up Anansi last week. I thought that they might be more specific, but okay. Yeah. No, everyone knows that one. Um, and yeah. What, what else did they bring up? Dionysus, uh, Loki.

[00:04:54] Uh, there was, it kind of made me think at sometimes, uh, about, sorry, spoiler for Marvel, Loki season two. It's been out a few years now. Um, how that series ended with Loki as the God of stories, uh, holding the threads of the multiverse together. Yeah. In a tree. Yeah. That's, that's interesting, especially because he lists all the gods, but then he goes, even Loki. Yeah. So he, he kind of stretches it there, right?

[00:05:22] Because Loki is not traditionally known as this God of stories. You know what it is known as. And sorry, I'm going to put on tinfoil hat corner later. The trickster. Oh man. Oh man. I think the tinfoil hats are fair. Like I loved all these connections to classic who with the other thing, uh, connections to the 13th doctor's plot line. I mean, I, I think that it's, it was honestly kind of weird that last season they just like didn't even mention that she existed.

[00:05:51] Like, like there was no bringing in a plot lines from her thing. There was like a weird illusion to like having been an orphan, I think. Uh, but, but I want to connect these plot lines. I don't want to just forget about Jodi's era, even if there were criticisms of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would say on the one hand it's because they were kind of do trying to do a soft reset for the new Disney era.

[00:06:16] But then on the other hand, they started the stock soft reset by going hard with David Tennant and Catherine Tate. So it was like, well, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think they knew the production team knew like Jodi's era was not well received. And so they were trying to just like palette cleanse. But you know what the timeless child happened and I would like to see that resolved. I would like to see that developed.

[00:06:44] Honestly, my only problem with that, with that Chibnall era was, uh, the flux that this long storyline, the flux that tried to bring everything together, but it was just so messy. And like, I just started to, I ended up putting off watching the new episodes for months because of that storyline. And then I finally finished the season and that was, it was like getting through this slog and second wheel of time reference. Yeah. I mean, look, Chibnall's era, other than, I agree with you, the flux is the weakest part.

[00:07:14] Other than the flux, I think like ups and downs. But I also think that people forget that like RTD one was a lot of ups and downs. There are some bum episodes in the first RTD era. And I think there are a few bum episodes of this era. Like I do think RTD is an uneven writer. Yeah. I mean, I actually really love season one of this new, new who era.

[00:07:36] Except the reason why people don't remember it as well is that the first episode and the last episode of last season were by far the weakest. Hmm. Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. Like, yeah, he's, I do think RTD has some great emotional writing and he's really great at writing relationships. I think Moffat is a much stronger season arc writer, like an overarching plot mystery box writer. And so they were just two different eras. Like I do kind of miss that.

[00:08:05] Like every season is its own mystery thing that we got in the Matt Smith and Peter Capaldi eras. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Well, now I'm getting into as part of my tinfoil hat corner, I watched the episode after midnight. And then I realized that the two episodes before midnight, which is the David Tennant, Catherine Tate era again, are the library episodes with River Song. So I'm like, okay, I guess I'm just like going to watch the back half of that entire season.

[00:08:37] It's a good season. And I really loved that introduction of River. I'm currently watching through, like, I'm really, I'm really moving through actually the third doctor's era and I'm having a lot of fun with it. I didn't love Pertwee at first. I liked him. He's really grown on me. He, and I just want to say like, you know, people are like, oh, the doctor, he's, he's so nice to everyone. No, he's not. Like John Pertwee's doctor, he's, he's trying to like hypnotize a, a monster.

[00:09:06] And Joe comes at Joe, his companion, Joe Grant, a woman, Joe, J O. She comes in with a torch and she tries to ward off the monster and he just interrupts the doctor's process. And he goes, Joe, you idiot. Well, he was, I mean, he was kind of mean to his companions at times. Yeah. Yeah. He can definitely, he got better. Yeah. He got better about that. Yeah. Oh, fun times. Fun times. Okay. All right. Let's get back to this one.

[00:09:35] What did, what did you think overall of this episode? Yeah. I mean, like I said, I liked that it, um, the whole storytelling element of it that immediately sucked me in. I liked that we were in a new location, even if they made minimal use of that location. I know that that is my complaint too. Uh, okay. You're going to put us in a new location, but put it in a barbershop. But then I, I actually came back around cause I was like, yeah, they're not doing the location as a character. They're doing the people of the, that location as a character. That's true.

[00:10:04] And there was some great, uh, well, storytelling in there. And also for instance, things like the whole braiding maps into people's hair. I looked it up and that's totally a real thing. You can find, you know, some documentary shorts about it on YouTube. So that's awesome. I learned something from that. Yeah. Um, but I guess, you know, we've, we've been happy with a lot of the recent episodes. I really liked this one.

[00:10:31] I, for me, I think it just was, it was like a more vibe episode. It was a more vibe and chill episode. And there was some nice character moments that we'll talk about. Um, so for me, it wasn't meant to be like the standout of the pack, but it was a solid entry that also gave us more insight into the doctor. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Synopsis. Want to alternate? Sure.

[00:11:01] All right. In the doctor's quest to get Belinda home, he stops by the largest communications tech market in Africa, in Lagos, Nigeria, in 2019 to supercharge the Vindicator. While he's there, he wants to stop by his favorite barbershop to chat with his friends. But once inside, he finds himself trapped with Omo, the owner and the other regulars under the power of the mysterious barber and his helper, Abby. Each forced to share stories.

[00:11:29] They have their hair cut to feed the engine of a giant mechanical spider traveling through the story nexus. It turns out that the barber spent his very long life serving the earth's various gods of stories, building this machine to feed their power, including Abby's or rather Abena's father, Anansi.

[00:11:49] Abby and the barber resent this servitude just as she resents that the doctor won her in a bet with his father, but still left her behind, trapped. Still, she does not wish to see her father and the other gods die as the barber has secretly been planning. And the doctor does not want to see the earth's cultures and knowledge, which depend on stories to be passed on, die as well.

[00:12:14] Abby helps the doctor and Belinda to find their way to the heart and brain of the story engine, where they have a final confrontation with the barber. The doctor threatens to destroy the barbershop and everyone in it to save the gods and people who depend on them, and the barber lets them go. The doctor convinces the barber to escape with them, and the story engine blows up, freeing them all. Omo gives the barber a new name and tells him to start a new life. Yeah, I thought it had a really nice ending.

[00:12:44] Yeah. It's, you know, just this once, everybody lives. Yeah, yeah. I guess not just this once. No, it's true. It's going to happen again. But it was a, yeah, it was a fairly happy ending where there's consequences. It's not like, but there's room for forgiveness and hope for a new, to be able to build something new. Yeah. I think that's right. Can we talk about this villain? Because I, you know, villain who comes around. I did like him.

[00:13:14] I thought he was really cool and menacing and, but then like had heart at the end. I was very confused by him cutting his hair while introducing himself. I mean, I guess because I, yeah, it's something about, well, first of all, his magic clippers were like, I was like, is that his sonic screwdriver? But anyway, but I was also wondering about that.

[00:13:38] I, and it seems like there's something with the magic clippers where they have to be cutting hair while the person's telling the story in order to like, that's the transport mechanism to get that story energy into the engine. Something like that. Yeah, but he was using scissors for most of it. Yeah. Oh, right. And not the, yeah. Well, I guess he didn't want to shave his head. He's just like, I'm going to rock a new look. Look, is this like a thing? Is this like a barbershop thing?

[00:14:08] Like where your barber comes up to you and starts menacingly telling you a story about who he is and he just cuts his hair in front of you? I don't know. I don't know. I'm pretty sure that's not a normal experience. Has this ever happened to anyone in a barbershop? It hasn't happened to me. Um, but yeah, I liked the whole story of Omo's Palace that this was the doctor's favorite barbershop. But he says, oh, by the way, Tardis does hair confirmed. So that was a question that we had. We got an answer to that this episode.

[00:14:37] So he says, I don't go there for the cuts. It's hard to explain. Basically, he says it's where I'm accepted. And, um, yeah, and we see like he knows everyone in the market and stuff. Um, and Shu Teeth actor, by the way, is Rwandan background, not a Nigerian. But, uh, I, I liked that whole message, but then it was so heartbreaking when they betrayed them and he realized his safe space wasn't as safe as he thought it was. Yeah, that was heartbreaking.

[00:15:02] And I, I honestly thought it was a little bit overblown, his reaction to Omo. But, like, never talked to me again. I don't know. I would be really mad if someone was, like, alert me there to try to ditch me and to take on their burden for them and trap me somewhere. That's pretty awful. That's true. But, like, the doctors had that done before.

[00:15:30] I was surprised he forgave them so quickly at the end. Okay. Okay. I just feel like the doctor is usually like, oh, well, let's just handle the situation. Yeah. I don't know. But, but I, I do think that there is a darkness in the doctor that we haven't seen as much with Judy. So, maybe we'll, we'll get that a little bit more with this.

[00:15:51] And I also think, you know, we, when you hear how the story begins, it was, um, the doctor showed up kind of like a god, uh, putting out a fire and saving almost, almost town. Yeah.

[00:16:04] And, um, I guess there is something about how we depend on gods to bail us out without realizing that the people that we look to that way have their own struggles and, you know, can't just bear all of ours for us. Yeah. I, I, well, I have a question too about the logic of how much we depend on gods. Before the barber wrote the stories, how did humans exist?

[00:16:31] Like, how did the barber exist to write the stories if humans depend on gods? Well, I don't think, I think it's not that humans, um, didn't exist. It's that they, we were, you know, like, I guess, well, even cavemen started to tell stories, but he said he was, he was very old. So he had some sort of immortality, uh, the barber. Very strange. I have a question about this imprisonment. Uh, so you saw Abby brings them food. Okay. But do they get to sleep or go to the bathroom?

[00:17:02] Uh, I don't know. That's a great question. Uh, you got to sleep in the chair and there's a single bathroom shared by eight people. Yeah. That sounds like my college days. Oh man. It does not, it's, I mean, it would get ripe in there too. There must be, are there showers somewhere? No, no, you, no. You, I guess you, you have the, you should have the sinks somewhere for the hair. So you can just. Yeah. It's in private.

[00:17:31] Just waft some water on yourself. Oh, goodness. I, you know, I'm planning a bachelor party right now. And, uh, the groom said he wanted to do karaoke and dancing. And I said, okay. Uh, you know, which one do you want to do? Uh, you know, what order do you want to do things? He goes, oh, I want to do dancing first. And I was like, you want to be in a room with 12 men who just went dancing.

[00:18:01] And, uh, he's like, okay, I get it. I was like, let's flip the order of that. Yeah, that's fair. Um, I, I really, one thing I liked about this episode was the way that the wall came to life to illustrate the stories. That was really cool. I could have watched them tell stories forever, actually. Um, and then we get the story about Belinda, which I guess is her own backstory. And, okay.

[00:18:28] So she keeps not turning up for her nan. Nan, why am I afraid that Nan's going to die this season or something? Oh, that's terrible. That's terrible. Don't tell me that. Yeah. That's very sad. We just hear Belinda is being taken advantage of and, uh, as a nurse. Uh, but her patients appreciate her. And then when he tells her a story, nothing is more vivid than ordinary life. And then his pictures are alive.

[00:18:59] And the engine speeds up. Yeah. And I almost thought the doctor was talking to us directly when he goes, you want Cybermen and Daleks and Weeping Angels. And I was like, yeah, I do. I would like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But okay. I did really feel for the doctor that like they thought that he was expendable. I have no family, so I'm expendable. I'm like, oh, that's, this is speaking to me.

[00:19:28] Um, it's not great. It's not great. It's not great. So I guess we shouldn't overthink though, the magic where there's like, they said, it was a stasis field that made the shop both in outer space on the back of this giant, um, space spider and Lagos at the same time.

[00:20:18] Okay. I told you about with David Tennant and Tom Baker. Uh, there's like this. Like refuge that's like in between time and you can enter it from different locations across time and space. Hmm. And, uh, and plus the time hotel has that. Right. That's true. That's true. So I think this is something that is, is established here. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I mean, like I said, I think that he had his barber clipper, Sonic barber clippers.

[00:20:48] Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's got all this stuff. Okay. But how does it, why does the TARDIS alarm go off whenever the door closes and why only since the doctor entered? Um, maybe because the doctor is like being transported away, but I don't know. That's, that's not, maybe because the doctor is like undetectable beyond like a temporal field. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. No, no, no. This is, this all works. This all works. I'm making stuff up because we will be wobbly, timey, wimey stuff.

[00:21:18] Yeah. Technobabble. Okay. Next question for you. So Belinda, she stayed behind and then she goes to find him. And there's a kind of creepy little girl, cute, but like, what are you doing? Weird little girl. And she waves and attracts her to the barber shop. Now we were told that we weren't going to, that we were going to get a Mrs. Flood cameo every episode. Do you think that could have been Mrs. Flood?

[00:21:46] Cause Belinda asked the doctor about the child at the end. And he says, I don't know, but the stories were leaking out, getting mixed up, which. No, we got Mrs. Flood. She was in the hospital. She greeted Belinda while she passed. Oh, really? Okay. I missed that. I missed that. And she didn't say anything interesting. No, she, it was just right before she, right before that patient came in and was like, thank you. Thank you. Mrs. Flood was like, oh, hi. She's like, oh, hi. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[00:22:15] Oh, all right. Then who do you think the child is? The timeless child. No, I don't know. Um, good question. Good question. I was thinking that too. I, I don't know. I think we're going to, what, what if it's the sperm boy who he, uh, the, the, the guy that they made a zygote. No. No, no, no, no. And he's a baby now. Oh, no, no, no. He's a baby. Well, maybe. Nature versus nurture. Maybe he comes out better this time. Well, maybe. Okay.

[00:22:44] So one thing is we got the fugitive doctor showed up when, um. Yes. When we, we, we get the doctor. Uh, okay. So the whole thing with, with Abby and she's like looking at the doctor sideways the whole time and we find out who, whose daughter she is and that the doctor, um, showed up and, uh, won her in a bet, but then left her behind.

[00:23:12] But it was, and then the camera turns and we see it's actually the future fugitive doctor as seen in a season 12 in a couple of episodes, the fugitive of Jadun and the timeless children. So this is like this mysterious doctor that we don't really know because she doesn't remember other incarnate incarnations of the doctor and other incarnations don't remember her. So we don't know where she fits in the timeline.

[00:23:40] Why does this doctor remember the memories of the fugitive doctor? Yeah, that's a good question. Because the doctor you'll remember as Jody Whittaker as the 13th doctor through the, um, what's the watch? I can never remember the name of it. I don't know. The watch that holds the time Lord memory. I know what you, I know what you're referring to. Oh my God. I can't think of it right in everybody, but through the memories into like the heart of the TARDIS.

[00:24:09] So this doctor shouldn't remember anything about it unless this doctor has recovered it and off screen. And we don't know. Well, I think that's a clue at the end of the episode. Again, he says the stories were leaking out, getting mixed up. So I wonder if that plays into tinfoil hat theory corner. Yeah. Yeah. But even before he recognized, well, yeah, no, he, as soon as he recognizes her, he's like, oh, I remember when I won you in a bet.

[00:24:38] And like, that's a direct memory. That's not just like something leaking in. He's talking about that. Like he's lived it. And so I, I think he, I think either RTD is like blatantly missing a plot point here, or this is a clue that the, this doctor has unlocked at least some of the memories in some way. Yeah. Okay.

[00:25:03] Um, I do wonder about, uh, about the barber that this whole thing, we see him becoming, you know, the doctor says he's going to become everything that he hates and despises, but then you're watching the whole time. He's like, and they just, um, locked me up and stole my stories for me. I'm like, that is literally what you were doing to a bunch of other people right now. My dude. Yeah, absolutely. Right. This, this guy is just cranky and perpetuating the cycle of violence. Yeah. Well, yeah.

[00:25:32] Belinda actually say several times hurt people, hurt people. Like, okay, we've heard that, but I like, I hated that. I hate that. No, no, no, no. I, that was me being sarcastic. It was too long in those, but I like what else she said. Your father hurts you. The difference between good and evil is what we do with that pain. I think that's, that's a good line, but you didn't need to start with hurt people, hurt people. No, I agree. And then they repeated it again later. I'm like, okay. She's like, what is this? And she's like, I taught the God something.

[00:26:02] I'm like, you can find that on a mug. I'm sorry, but your word art isn't impressing me, RTD. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was also the other time that really stood out was, uh, so when the doctor goes into like the brain of, of the story engine, which opens up like a tree and then there's a beating heart inside that, that was cute. You know, what else could hold all these stories? Yeah, sure. That makes sense. But then he brings up Hemingway's famous six word story.

[00:26:31] And for anyone who doesn't know what that is, it's for sale, baby shoes, never worn. That's so sad. It's very sad, but it's the most famous like six word story. And it's become this whole sub genre of writing. And then the doctor's version is I'm born. I die. I'm born. I'm like, no wonder you didn't say the Hemingway version because this does not stand up.

[00:26:57] But I, I, it moved me though, because he is now, now that he has this timeless child knowledge, he is theoretically infinitely regenerating, right? He's just this immortal being. And that's an endless story. And that powered, I think that's great. I actually bought this. I like that part. And no, it was just the actual six words that I was being snarky about.

[00:27:21] But I, I like, I was, you know, quite moved by the idea that all of these stories that everyone's been watching for decades about the doctor, that these are powering. I mean, powering these gods, which in turn power humanity. And it becomes this really meta thing because then also we, you know, find out that, uh, the doctor of course knows all of the gods personally. Mm-hmm.

[00:27:48] Um, so yeah, I, I have to say this, speaking of his whole list, laundry list of gods, uh, there are some interesting wordings in there. Uh, he says, the barber says, I begin all things. I am the voice in the empty void. I am the spark, the seed, the dark nucleus, the lie that tells the truth, the well of words that tall tale itself.

[00:28:16] And a lot of those phrasings, uh, tie into my tinfoil hat corner. Like the stuff I said about the Mara, uh, kickstarting time last week. And yeah, I still wonder if we're getting story soup as a plot arc, but done better than the flux. Hmm. I hope so. I hope so. It has to be done better than the flux, right? Yeah. I mean, it's a low bar. Are the dog people coming back?

[00:28:45] I don't mind the dog people just write for them. Well, I think the dog people are cute. I want a dog person. It's just baseballs guys. Can we just admit it? It was baseballs the whole time. I look forward to rewatching it when you and David do the episode. I know we wanted to do it last month and we just couldn't get it together with Andor and the last of us. Yeah. Yeah. Well, why don't we take a break and then we'll come back, finish the episode. Okay.

[00:29:26] We're back. What else do you want to talk about in this episode, Alicia? Um, let's talk about this nexus concept. So I went into the Doctor Who Wikipedia as I do when I'm wondering, uh, is this something that we've heard about before? And there are a lot of different nexus concepts. Like there is a sort of hive mind species called the nexus, but there's all different kinds of nexci, I guess would be the plural.

[00:29:53] Um, he says, I wanted something like a brain, which, you know, has all the interconnected neurons. Uh, neurons and, uh, and he says, cross connecting concepts, cultures, and ideas. So how does this, so that's why I call it the story nexus in the, in the recap, but how do you think this nexus concept connects with, uh, and this whole episode with our thought that Mrs. Flood is the God of stories?

[00:30:22] I, I think it kind of blows it up. You know, it's a bit of a binary, binary, binary, um, that we, we can't have Mrs. Flood be the God of stories and this guy, like, it would just be really cheap to be like, oh, well, that was one God of stories or one storyteller. But now Mrs. Flood is a storyteller. So, uh, now I'm back to she's Susan. Yeah, you think? Okay. Hmm. All right. Maybe, maybe we'll see.

[00:30:48] I saw somebody put forward that she's Jenny and I was like, no, no, we're not bringing back Jenny like that. If we bring back Jenny, they're going to bring Georgia Tennant in. Jenny? Jenny, uh, the doctor's daughter, the clone daughter. Oh, right. Yeah. That's one of the ones that I was thinking, should I rewatch that episode also in the, it's also in the same, uh, season four as midnight in those other episodes I'm watching. It's an okay episode. Uh, but, but that is how David Tennant met his wife. So.

[00:31:19] Oh, so it's got personal. Yeah. That's, that's his wife. I didn't know if you didn't know that. Um, yeah, she, that's how he met his wife. And then they, uh, and, and like Ty Tennant, his son, that's his adopted son. That was her son. Oh, okay. Yeah.

[00:31:34] Um, so we did get some meta commentary or I guess it doesn't count as meta, but just connecting across stories where the barber said he collected stories in a pub lit by candles, a Catholic church confession box, a coal powered theater. He says an electric cinema. And then we get a visual of the theater from Lux this season. He says a space opera and we get a visual in space.

[00:32:00] So I guess even before the doctor connected himself directly to the story engine, he was collecting his stories. So, yeah, I still wonder if there's going to be some tie to Mrs. Flood. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Well, she was in, so she was in the story, the recreation of the story that the doctor was telling about Belinda. So maybe, maybe she's infiltrated the system there. That's true.

[00:32:27] Uh, yeah, I did feel for him though. I primed the nexus. He worked for centuries, just wanted recognition. I primed the nexus so well that it worked without me. I'm like, he got fired and because he trained AI to replace himself. I know. It's so relatable. I think that, I think that might have been RTD's point though, is like, you know, training a model to automate. Um, yeah, it's, it's fascinating, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

[00:32:56] Uh, what did you think about the guy's reverence toward Abby? Like I, Abby was cool and I felt for her and she came through for sure in the end. Um, but even before that, like she was one of the two locking them up and like, she brings food. So we like her. I mean, you got limited options in that place. I think, I think, you know, the one who brings food is better than, it looked like pretty good food. Yeah. No, I'm sure she's getting it from the market in Lagos. I'm sure. Yeah.

[00:33:25] Yeah. Uh, he rescued us, but you kept us alive. So I don't know what's touching. Yeah. No, that's, that's, uh, that's interesting. Yeah. And I, I did love to, you know, we didn't mention when, when the doctor's hair gets cut, it goes way above where it was before. It's not like it went back to the uncut. It's just like way overgrown. Yeah. Well, they said it's because I guess it was like his storytelling potential or something. They're like, look how much his grew.

[00:33:56] Oh my God. So you would forgive Omo in this case? I would forgive Omo. Look, he's being a, he's a human being attacked by gods. So he calls the only other God that he knows. I think that's fair. Well, yeah. Okay. But he, I, the problem is not that he wanted the doctor's help. The problem was that he wanted them all to abandon the doctor to live this out for them instead so that they could be free. They wanted to sacrifice the doctor.

[00:34:25] He says, I thought, I thought you could do anything, but you are a part of my community and I should have protected you. Like, well, yeah. Yeah. But I did, I did like that he reached the handout to the barber and I think maybe there is something in saying like, I made a big mistake so I can forgive that you made an even bigger mistake. And he says, let all this settle and continue. And then I thought it was curious. So he gave him a name. I'm going to try to say this. Are to Kundo? Kundo?

[00:34:56] Are to Kundo? Good for you for trying to say it. That is his, it's actually, it's fun to say. It's like your mouth's a drum kit and the, and your tongue is the drumsticks. But anyway, it's his father's name, which I thought was curious. Like that is quite the honor to say you may use my father's name. Yeah. I, I think that is an honor. I don't know why he chose to do that. Do you know the meaning of this? The name? Yeah. No.

[00:35:25] Uh, maybe. I was doing the same thing. We're both highlighting it. You, you go ahead and look it up. Yeah. Oh no, I didn't, I didn't get it now. All right. I'm doing it. I'm doing it. I promise everybody. But I do. So Abby's happy to be free. And it seems like, so the thing is between, uh, Abby and, uh, they took him couldn't bow. I can say it all the syllables fit. Um, I got it by the way. You got it. Okay.

[00:35:52] The crown or royalty from across the seas or the crown or royalty from a foreign land. Oh, well, I mean, yeah. He is. Well, maybe not from a foreign land because he said he was originally human, but from beyond in a way. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I, I thought that there was good vibes between he and Abby during while everything was going down. So I found myself kind of hoping, like, I think she needs to go do her own thing.

[00:36:19] Uh, funnily enough, like another character named Belinda in white Lotus, but I find myself hoping she'll come back and give him another chance as he figures out who he is in this new life. Yeah. All right. We'll see. We'll see if we see them again. Yeah, they are imperfect. I would love them to explore more like real mythology. Like, you know, people are like, why are they adding gods now? And doctor who like guys, Sutek was already there. Aiden.

[00:36:50] With the fourth doctor. Everybody chill. Yeah. I mean, I, this is definitely not like the first reference to anyway. Yeah. I like, and I, I'm, I'm like more folklore, please. Yeah. I agree. All right. Tinfoil hat time. All right. It's all connected. So, all right. I already said the whole thing that he said above the spark, the seed that reminded me

[00:37:19] of the Mara, um, like midnight, they were studying humanity to learn, but, uh, a new, the new episode that I watched this week, I didn't get time to watch as much because we're recording earlier in the week. I watched, I went back to the episode after midnight, uh, season four, episode 11 is called turn left. And this is about entities that feed off alternate timelines. And this was written by Russell T Davies.

[00:37:46] So it's not like, you know, there's he, uh, this came out of his brain. It could connect back. Did you ever see this Russell T Davies show years and years, by the way? No, I haven't seen it. I don't think I've seen anything else, but Russell T Davies. I it's, it's just a mini series, maybe six episodes. I don't remember exactly. I think it came out. Yeah. It came out in 2019 and then it follows this family in Britain through the next 15 years.

[00:38:14] So going into the near future and it's, um, covers everything from immigration to transhumanism. Uh, and it's just one that I, I think about it all the time, way more than most shows. So I do really recommend it, but this episode turn left was, it felt so turn left that released like 11 years before that or something. So it felt like, uh, this is a practice run for stuff. He's going to do in this year's and year show.

[00:38:41] But anyway, um, it was a, do you remember turn left? Oh yeah. Yeah. That's a great episode. Yeah. So this is a Donna focused Dr. Light episode of the reverse of midnight basically. And there's a fortune teller that wants to tell Donna's story so that she can change it. And then Donna gets this beetle on her back and people keep looking over Donna's shoulder. Like, it's like, there's something I can't see.

[00:39:09] There's something on your back, which reminds me a lot of the entity in the well. I like it. I like it. You know, you're, you're, yeah, that's, that's fascinating. And it was stuck on her back at least, but at least you could see it if you, if you saw her in person. The beetle. Yeah. I think if you saw her in person, you would see it. No, no, no, no. The only way. And this again, goes back to the Mara thing. The only way that they're able to show it to her is in this ring of mirrors. Oh, okay. All right. All right.

[00:39:37] So it's the same thing where people keep staring over her shoulder, just like, like they're barely glimpsing something, you know, and she's getting freaked out and they're getting freaked out. And yeah. Um, so this was a one where Rose shows up to help and thinking about, you know, people talking recently about how Rose isn't great on reviewing. This was a more mature Rose. So I can't really say about, but I liked this more mature Rose.

[00:40:04] Um, I don't always love Donna as much as other people. Oh no. I am a Donna defender. I know. I know. I know. Most people are. Well, I don't know because Donna, when she was on was really not well received. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Because she was like. Very shouty. She was shouty. She was not, you know, we had these, these, uh, people fawning over the doctor, you know, falling in love with the doctor. Then we had Donna being like, you bastard put me on the ground. Oh yeah.

[00:40:32] No, I like her not like fawning over him or being in love with him, especially just coming off of Rose. Um. And Martha. I mean, Martha was done way worse than Rose. I thought with the, with the romance. Yeah. I thought I wanted Martha and Jack to have a fling. I guess they probably did. But I, look, I, I want, I, I, I liked Martha as a character, but that romance was terribly written. Yeah, no, that's fair. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah. So in this, uh, turn left episode, Rose shows up.

[00:41:01] There is a mention of all these other people, like the doctors died and can't regenerate. Martha Jones mentioned to say that she died. Sarah Jane is mentioned also dead torchwood team dead, but we got good grandpa. Well, grandpa Wilford. I like him. I miss Wolf a lot. Yeah. I miss Wolf a lot. And he's passed now the actor. I know. Oh, I know we're so lucky.

[00:41:26] Uh, I'm so glad that he got that last moment in the 60th anniversary specials to, to do that, you know, say goodbye to the fans and, and that part of his life, which I'm sure is just a nice thing to do at the end. Yeah. Um, but yeah, we had in this episode, realities crashing on each other. So a lot of classic who villains coming back, like the Jadoon I mentioned above the, the rhino people, uh, Americans are dissolving into fat at a pose.

[00:41:55] Uh, and Rose says the darkness is coming in from across the stars and the stars start blinking out. And so this is a bad wolf thing, but it's still, it's like given the same energy, like the opposite of Lux. The, from, from the second episode of the season. Yeah. Yeah. I always forget that Rose absorbed the time vortex for a minute or, or sorry, she, she looked into the heart of the TARDIS. That's what it was. Right. True. True. Yeah.

[00:42:24] And, uh, and she had that whole thing. There was, I was actually, I just saw a TikTok clip of the, the 10th doctor. He wanted to leave. He, he had Rose and Jackie in the TARDIS. He wanted to leave Rose in the TARDIS so she could help him from in there. Uh, cause he was in Torchwood and Torchwood was like evil in that episode. And, uh, he pulls Jackie out and he's like, this is Rose Tyler, my companion. She started starting to the time vortex and aged 40 years. And Jackie's like, Hey,

[00:42:55] Jackie. She's like, I'm 40. He goes deluded. It's funny. Cause Donna also has a terrible mother, but I like Jackie better. Yeah. Yeah. Jackie's fun. Um, but yeah, so the creature and Donna's back in turn left, it's feeding off of time by changing time, changing someone's life story. So it's like going in the soup of all these interconnected ideas. And Rose says, I can't even touch it. It seems to be in a state of dot, dot, dot flux. No.

[00:43:24] Oh, and the doctor says it's like reality is bending around you to Donna since the day you were born. So it's official next wheel of time reference. Donna is to fear. Yep. Donna is to fear. I think that's right. That's right. She, she controls everything for everybody around the world around her. Yep. But interestingly, so back to the, uh, Pantheon connections, the doctor calls the beetle on

[00:43:53] her back. One of the tricksters brigade and the trickster was identified. And that's the reason why I started the Sarah Jane Chronicles. Cause the trickster is a character there and was identified as one of the Pantheon. Hmm. Will we get the trickster back now? I wish we could get Sarah Jane back. She died too young. She died too young. Yeah. Yeah. So it's been, I'm glad that I started watching it at first. I was like, I'll just watch the trickster episodes. But then I'm like, no, I've always wanted to watch a show. It's not.

[00:44:23] The episodes are short, you know, it's not. And I can watch them on double speed. It's not, uh, that long of a watch. So I watched the, the pilot, like they, the pilot is called invasion of the Bane. And it's interesting. They have a Mrs. Wormwood and Sarah Jane says to Mrs. Wormwood, the Bible describes a star falling from the sky and poisoning the waters. I'm like, Ooh, this is tying into my waters of Mars theory. It's all connected.

[00:44:52] And he's like, yeah, I've forgotten that. I wrote that already. No, it's all real. So, and there's a child of the Bane. So Sarah Jane, she adopts this, this child who's, uh, was created by these Bane, uh, called the archetype. And to learn, he repeats after the main characters to learn how to human. But he's not an evil entity. So I'm really stretching it here, but. I'm with you though. I'm with you. I'm here for the rabbit hole.

[00:45:23] Um, and in the natural form, Wormwood can read minds. But the interesting thing is in their natural form, the Bane, they looked a lot like the stupid, uh, one-eyed bug with penis arms that you showed me last week. That's the Alpha Centaurians. I'll have you know. Um, it looks like if they actually had CGI money for that or, you know, capabilities, because I know that's old. You, you have to hear their voice too.

[00:45:51] You, you really got to watch one of those episodes because they're like, hello, I'm the Alpha Centauri. For a percent of the different, like it's, it really sounds like that. It's just like a guy with a falsetto. Terrifying. Uh, anyway, I'm, I, I did the pilot in the first two episodes of Sarah Jane. I'll keep going and I'll report back next week if there's anything more relevant. And that's been, it's all connected. All right. Very good. Well, we've done Doctor Who.

[00:46:20] I don't think we had feedback this week, did we? No, uh, no, no email feedback. But if you would like to share yours for next time, please send it to TARDIS at the lorehounds.com. And if you sent it this week after we're recording on, uh, Tuesday, then sorry, we recorded early this week. Yeah, I'm busy this week. It's my fault. We had to record early. Uh, but it's all right. We're here and we're going to have a great time. So yeah. And if you, if you sent in your feedback after that, we'll include it in next week's. Yep.

[00:46:51] Yep. All right. Next week. Are we excited for the interstellar song contest? Apparently it's going to be a big one. It's like Rick and Morty all over again. Why? Did you watch any of Rick and Morty? Yeah. I've watched all of Rick and Morty. Yeah. The whole, when they have, they have the interstellar song contest. Remember? Oh, and they're like, show me what you got. Uh, well, so the reason that they're doing is because Eurovision is coming up.

[00:47:17] I should know the date, but I know that it's, I mean, obviously we have this coming out next week, but also like my Dutch podcasts or like my, uh, I have a Dutch linguistics podcast and the episode that came out yesterday is here are the languages of Eurovision this year. Happy Eurovision day, Europe. I see you. Hmm. Yeah. I don't know what Eurovision is much. I just know it's a lot of, it's a lot of dancing and music and all that. Yeah. I mean, it is what it says. It's a song contest.

[00:47:45] It's more like I participate quote unquote by voting. Um, when I do in the past, you know, we've done parties with friends where we watch together and then we, uh, there's an app and you can vote for your favorites, but everyone votes for everyone votes within their own country blocks. So like the Dutch will vote for like the Belgians and Germans and Brits or actually not the Brits are on their, their own thing. Okay. Dancing with the Brits. Yeah.

[00:48:17] All right. You know, you can, you can chat with us on discord. You can listen to our last of us and end or podcasts. You're doing a one shot on sinners. Yeah. You want to watch it on the Thunderbolts? Mm-hmm. Sinners should be out. We'll be out this week. Uh, if we're recording this tomorrow as we're recording this, so it will probably be out before this actually. And, uh, Thunderbolts. Yeah. We just have to figure out that recording date, but both I gave both of those movies five stars. That's great.

[00:48:46] I heard Thunderbolts was really good. I haven't paid attention to any sinners discourse, but Thunderbolts, I am looking forward to seeing sinners. I think you'll definitely, I mean, I understand, you know, maybe you can't make it to the theater. It'll come to streaming at some point, but, uh, I think that you'll really enjoy sinners for similar reasons that you liked, um, Nosferatu last year. Okay. I probably will wait for it to come on streaming, but I look forward to that too. It's yeah, it's definitely one of the films of the year. Nice. Yeah. All right.

[00:49:15] Well, uh, check out our network radioactive ramblings with their fallout coverage. Check out nevermind the music with their music and psychology mishmash. It's great stuff. Uh, check out we'll shift dust. That's your stuff. Alicia, you want to talk about any we'll shift dust or star Wars kind of timeline podcast stuff you have coming. Um, well, I just put out, uh, May the 4th, a couple of days ago, as we were recording,

[00:49:38] I put out an episode for Canon Padawan subscribers for the star Wars Canon timeline podcast about the new tales of the underworld, about, uh, stories of, uh, Asajj Ventress and Cad Bane. So I filled in some context, especially in the Ventress side, because I just kind of start with the end of the book, dark disciple. Uh, so I explained where all that comes from and other important things you need to know, but that's, yeah, that's for Canon Padawan subscribers.

[00:50:07] There will be something out soon on the public feed. I promise just and or is killing me. No, that's, that's cool. I think, um, that, that makes a lot of sense because you're right. It does start right at the end of this novel that like probably like a fraction of a fraction of the fan base has bought has read. Everyone should read it. It's one of the best star Wars novels in my, it's really good. I've read it. Yeah. Yeah. Really good stuff. Uh, and then we have, uh, what are they called? Rings of rituals properly. Howard.

[00:50:37] Uh, they'll be back soon with some more content. So you want to read the names? Okay, sure. Thank you to our discord server boosters, Aaron K. Tiller, the thriller, dork of the ninjas, doof 71, Athena, Angelia, Tina, let's do Nancy M ghost a partition and radioactive Richard. Thank you to all of our subscribers to our lore hounds, but thank you most of the all to our lore masters. You make this possible.

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[00:51:33] Thank you. The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and add free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening.

[00:52:25] Thank you. Thank you.