Dune: Prophecy - S01E04 - Twice Born

[00:00:16] Welcome to the Dune Prophecy Podcast, where the Lorehounds, your guides to the secrets of the sisterhood. I'm David.

[00:00:22] And I'm Alisha, and this is our coverage of the HBO series Dune Prophecy, Episode 4, Twice Born.

[00:00:28] In this podcast, we're going to start off with our hot takes and general analysis, then we'll move into a scene-by-scene breakdown, followed by listener feedback, and then at the very end, we'll have some book talk after the outro.

[00:00:43] And we want to hear your thoughts about the series and about our coverage and about everything Dune. Please send all of that to dune at thelorehounds.com, and Nancy will read your email and be in touch and make sure that your thoughts are represented in our feedback.

[00:00:59] We'd also like to invite you to our Discord. We've got a great community. We've got a great moderator team. We've got channels set up for all the different projects and shows we're covering, so you can watch an episode without getting spoiled.

[00:01:12] Also, I'll mention this a little bit later. We have a show guide, so if you're curious, like, who's this character or what planet is that? We've got you covered. We've got an online curated encyclopedia that is show only, so it won't take you out into the wider universe where you might get lost or spoiled.

[00:01:30] We also have some extras for Supercast and Patreon subscribers, like extra episodes of our Christmas coverage this month and our top 10 list, our rankings from all of our subscribers.

[00:01:42] Which we've nicknamed the agony.

[00:01:44] The agony, right.

[00:01:45] It's a tough year.

[00:01:45] Very appropriate.

[00:01:46] Yeah, I had a hard time with the bottom half of the list. Top half of the list was solid, but stick around to the end, and we'll tell you more about what's included in that and how you can join.

[00:01:57] Cool. How are you doing, Alicia? It's been a busy month.

[00:02:01] Oh, gosh, yes. I just need to get through one more week and a half, and then hopefully things will be calmer.

[00:02:08] No, that's good. Yeah, it's been, there's a lot, like, I was like, oh, it'll be an easy month. We'll just have a couple of shows going, but then we've got all these other projects, and then new things are popping up. You guys just got on the radar for a Doctor Who Christmas special?

[00:02:20] Yes, yes. We just got a, well, apparently we're getting a screener today for a Doctor Who Christmas special, so also watch for that to come out.

[00:02:28] Because we need more projects.

[00:02:30] I mean, we knew it was coming, but yeah, now we can do it in advance.

[00:02:34] Well, let's start to think about episode four here. Just a reminder, we'll try to save any book spoiler plot stuff for the very, very end. And, you know, book spoiler plot is different than lore, and we'll definitely unpack the lore, because this episode had tons of lore nuggets in it. It was kind of crazy. They were just throwing things into the script, it seemed like, in some ways.

[00:02:57] I also want to suggest that you go check out our mid-season check-in with the guys from the Dune Minute podcast. We had a lot of fun talking to them, and then we're going to touch base with them after the season is over, probably just in the new year somewhere, given schedules and vacation times and all that kind of stuff.

[00:03:15] But I've been listening to their coverage, and I just want to give a big thumbs up. They do a great job.

[00:03:19] They've been doing the first Dune movie literally minute by minute, and they're just wrapping up with that. They're going to do some stuff in between. They're sort of an in-between season, and then they're going to do Dune 2 coming up. So go check them out.

[00:03:35] Also, I don't know if people are realizing how much work our friend Nancy is. She's really a hero of the Imperium.

[00:03:45] Incredible.

[00:03:45] She is shepherding all of the feedback, curating the Discord comments, taking your emails, putting them into a really well-organized document for us.

[00:03:57] But not only that, she's doing the episode breakdowns, which we use, we modify slightly, depending.

[00:04:05] But then those episode recaps are all going on to our show guide, which we use the Notion platform for.

[00:04:12] And it is an incredibly rich resource.

[00:04:15] So if you're curious, and you're into the show, and you're into the mystery box stuff, and you need to reference what's going on, Nancy's been doing an amazing job at writing them.

[00:04:24] It actually is a lot of work to pull up the salient details and write it into coherent structure.

[00:04:29] So there's a link in the show notes for that.

[00:04:32] Again, it's got on-screen character guide.

[00:04:34] It's got a timeline.

[00:04:35] It's got a glossary.

[00:04:36] It's got over 100 entries in the glossary, if you're curious about some of the deeper lore stuff.

[00:04:43] So, Nancy, thank you.

[00:04:45] You really are doing an amazing job.

[00:04:46] And I think she's having a lot of fun.

[00:04:48] Yes.

[00:04:49] I hope so, Nancy.

[00:04:51] Please blink twice if you need help.

[00:04:53] That's right.

[00:04:54] But not for me, because I'm drowning in silo.

[00:04:58] How is silo going, by the way?

[00:05:00] Yeah, I think that the season just keeps getting better and better as it goes.

[00:05:04] I've now watched through episode six.

[00:05:06] Okay.

[00:05:07] So I can say, yeah, things get really exciting.

[00:05:10] And I'm especially excited for people to see episode six for reasons.

[00:05:16] Got it.

[00:05:16] Okay.

[00:05:17] Perfect.

[00:05:18] Sounds good.

[00:05:19] All right.

[00:05:19] Well, let's talk about episode four of Dune.

[00:05:21] Let's check in.

[00:05:23] Where are you overall?

[00:05:25] And what's sort of your analysis of the season and of the episode?

[00:05:30] So I was a bit hard on the last episode.

[00:05:32] And this one definitely was better.

[00:05:37] But I also just want to say, I got called out a few times on Discord for making too many book comparisons.

[00:05:43] And I think that in doing so, I find that very interesting just to, you know, I have things that are troubling me about the show.

[00:05:50] And so I talk about it in a way like, well, here's how the story was done differently that I feel was stronger.

[00:05:55] And I realize it's a different medium, but I still think that they have wasted screen time that they could have more economically used.

[00:06:03] But anyway, so my policy from here on out is I will talk about lore from the books.

[00:06:08] Like when it comes up, like where they talk about Vorian giving up the throne, I'll tell you what happens in the books with that.

[00:06:14] But otherwise, I am going to do my best to avoid bringing up the books just so to focus on the show just because I don't want to come across as pedantic.

[00:06:27] And I'm sorry for the people.

[00:06:29] I know that there are people who do also want to know what happened in the books.

[00:06:33] If you're one of them, write in.

[00:06:35] We need a voice to be represented.

[00:06:39] Hopefully, in this case, it makes it more clear what my issues are.

[00:06:43] Right.

[00:06:44] But this episode went better for me than the last one for sure.

[00:06:46] Oh, that's good, yeah.

[00:06:47] It is.

[00:06:47] We do walk a narrow path, not unlike a golden one.

[00:06:51] You know, it's easy to fall either one side or the other.

[00:06:54] And then the other thing is that we just-

[00:06:55] My problem is not diverging for the books.

[00:06:57] I just cannot make that clear enough.

[00:06:59] I am always for diverging from the books.

[00:07:03] It just has to be good and have good reasons.

[00:07:06] Right, right, right.

[00:07:07] Like Silo, Wheel of Time, they do a great job diverging for the books mostly.

[00:07:11] Right.

[00:07:12] And when we're passionate about something, right, we're going to be vocal about it.

[00:07:15] And we care because you really care a lot about the Dune universe and the Dune story.

[00:07:19] It's important.

[00:07:20] Michael will shift us the adaptation analysis podcast because I am especially interested in how

[00:07:25] things are adapted between media.

[00:07:28] For me, I find all those details really interesting.

[00:07:30] Like, oh, here's how it's different from the book.

[00:07:33] But not everyone feels the same way.

[00:07:35] Cool.

[00:07:36] Well, I'm glad you enjoyed this episode a little bit more.

[00:07:39] And it seems like there's a lot of fans who are really, a lot of watchers who are really

[00:07:43] enjoying it, which I'm very happy for.

[00:07:47] I do have to note that there was no sex scene in this episode.

[00:07:50] So the first one, like I mentioned before, there were so many

[00:07:55] lore nuggets.

[00:07:56] I have like 10 or 11 listed in a side outline.

[00:08:00] And we've got little mentions throughout.

[00:08:04] I'm really glad that people are enjoying it.

[00:08:08] Last episode, I was a little, and this episode, I'm feeling a little bit better.

[00:08:13] There's a few weak parts for the season overall for me.

[00:08:16] And I think I'm just kind of feeling burned out over on television overall.

[00:08:20] I don't want to complain too much, but we had a lot come at us this year.

[00:08:23] And I'm feeling maybe the burden of that.

[00:08:26] So I need to check my own responses too, because I don't know that I'm trusting my responses to

[00:08:31] the show.

[00:08:32] Maybe I'm looking too hard again, being too close to the source material.

[00:08:36] Yeah.

[00:08:36] But I'm glad people are enjoying it.

[00:08:39] And there's a ton of lore and there's a ton of things to talk about.

[00:08:43] So I want to kind of focus on that as well.

[00:08:46] I have to say the visuals and the costuming just continue to be on point.

[00:08:50] I was really noticing costumes in this episode, especially for the sisters, that little embossing

[00:08:55] that they do on the shoulders.

[00:08:58] Just all of Havako's outfit.

[00:09:01] I mean, I know I complain jokingly about Desmond's duster, but it still looks good, even though

[00:09:07] he's still wearing it after being at the Imperial Court for weeks.

[00:09:13] The cinematography continues to be on point.

[00:09:15] I mean, I noticed one thing there, there was a scene with Ynez and Kiryan and she is,

[00:09:23] you know, they've got her face, they've got her on a closeup and she's getting a lot of

[00:09:27] bright colored light on her face because they're in the club.

[00:09:30] And I just wanted to point out like, that's a simple little shot, but that shot was really

[00:09:35] actually, that, that was a technical shot that somebody had to take very careful time

[00:09:41] to make sure that they set up.

[00:09:42] Because the more you saturate light, the darker it gets.

[00:09:46] So then you have to turn up the light, which then you can blow it out very easily.

[00:09:50] And they balanced that lighting perfectly.

[00:09:52] So we got the club lighting on her face.

[00:09:54] We could see all of her details, but she was not washed out or overblown in any way.

[00:09:59] Like it was really technically very good.

[00:10:02] And I really appreciate the fact that those folks, all the folks that are working with

[00:10:06] the cameras and the color grading and all that stuff have really been giving their best

[00:10:12] on this show.

[00:10:13] Yeah.

[00:10:13] The lighting technicians are often, I think some of the most underrated members of Cruz.

[00:10:19] Yeah.

[00:10:20] Like I was trying to look up, I was trying to look up who did the lighting on the man who

[00:10:25] invented Christmas.

[00:10:26] Cause there's some great lighting there.

[00:10:27] And I just couldn't even find that information on IMDB or Wikipedia or anywhere else.

[00:10:32] It's just, they're not getting the credit they deserve.

[00:10:35] Yeah.

[00:10:35] Yeah.

[00:10:36] Well, thank you to everyone who's doing that work.

[00:10:39] I noticed something too, in this show that they've got some definite patterns that the

[00:10:44] way that they're writing, it's almost, I don't want to say cookie cutter.

[00:10:47] Cause that's a little bit, a little shade.

[00:10:50] I don't want to shade too much, but they definitely have a way that they set up every episode.

[00:10:55] And they do a lot of foreshadowing and then they keep ramping the tension so that it breaks

[00:11:04] right at the end of the episode.

[00:11:06] And it almost is like they're, I don't wonder if they're writing for the streaming medium

[00:11:11] to their cognizant of how, how people are going to stay engaged.

[00:11:17] Cause they, I mean, I think the, all the streaming platforms watch, like when you come in and

[00:11:21] come out and when you come back, they look at all these engagement measures.

[00:11:24] So it feels like this is written for the streaming medium, you know, and it's fine.

[00:11:30] I understand what they're doing, but then there's like a little tediousness a little

[00:11:33] bit for me too, because this, it doesn't feel like the story is flowing naturally.

[00:11:36] It feels like the story is flowing to, you know, drive the episode structure for engagement.

[00:11:43] But anyway, um, and lastly, I have a couple of thoughts on some of the themes.

[00:11:52] There was a theme that I really enjoyed in this episode, which is, you know, there's

[00:11:58] that whole idea of power corrupts, right?

[00:12:00] And I was inez or it was, it was in the conversation with Inez and, and Kirian.

[00:12:06] And there is this idea that it's not just that you have power and it corrupts you, but

[00:12:12] that when you have power, you're motivated to hold that power, to keep that power.

[00:12:18] And so you start going down a pathway that's that, um, re self reinforces you holding power.

[00:12:26] And I thought that was a really interesting point, uh, about you, the use of power in

[00:12:34] general.

[00:12:34] And then, you know, they're, they're obviously setting up with the lawns rod to say, oh,

[00:12:38] like, well, we have to be a check to that power.

[00:12:40] And then, and then I think as I've, I've been on record before that, uh, I'm pretty sure

[00:12:45] that we're going to get the origins of the sadhukar here, which is the emperor's ultimate

[00:12:49] power, you know, to use, to, to keep the lawns rod in check.

[00:12:53] But I believe that, you know, Inez is saying like, look, my dad's a good guy.

[00:12:56] You know, he, he really does.

[00:12:58] But you know, the, you know, Kiryan's like, well, you know, but he's got power and he

[00:13:02] wants to keep power.

[00:13:03] Got to disrupt that.

[00:13:04] So I thought that was good.

[00:13:06] And then of course we have a ton of mystery box stuff going on with who is Desmond.

[00:13:11] We've, we've got Theodosia's condition finally revealed and we have some things to talk about

[00:13:16] there, but I think we'll save that for the, the scene by scene.

[00:13:20] Um, and, uh, yeah, so I, yeah, I think it was good.

[00:13:24] We've got two episodes left.

[00:13:26] So I think they're just going to take the breaks off and run us straight into it because

[00:13:30] they've been setting up a lot of mystery that they pay off.

[00:13:32] Right.

[00:13:33] Now it's time for all the pieces to fall into place.

[00:13:35] That's right.

[00:13:36] All right.

[00:13:37] Well, let's take a quick break.

[00:13:38] And then when we come back, we will deep dive into a scene by scene and we're back.

[00:13:57] Okay.

[00:13:58] Quick spoiler warning.

[00:13:59] Remember, we're going to be talking about things from the original books, OG, the extended

[00:14:06] universe, XD, and then wink, wink, the Villeneuve universe, the VU where that's sort of a coined

[00:14:12] phrase here.

[00:14:13] And we know that there's, you know, some different questions about how well they're lining things

[00:14:17] up and whatnot, but you know, in terms of this cinematic adaptation and again, lore versus

[00:14:23] plot, we'll try not to spoil any plot points from those, but we will talk about the first

[00:14:30] Dune move or the first Dune book and the, the two Villeneuve movies.

[00:14:34] And then we'll pluck a key detail from the extended universe books.

[00:14:40] And then we'll put at the very end after the outro, a little bit more sort of free form

[00:14:47] conversation about all the material without any, any worries of spoilers.

[00:14:51] So quick summary of the episode entitled twice born directed by Richard J. Lewis written

[00:14:58] for television by Kevin Lau and Suzanne Rubel.

[00:15:01] And the runtime, this was a long episode, 104 minutes.

[00:15:04] So on Wallach nine, a disturbing incident occurs where multiple acolytes examine, experience

[00:15:11] the same nightmare with sister Emmeline attempting suicide while sleepwalking before being stopped

[00:15:16] by sister Jen.

[00:15:18] Meanwhile, Valia engages in political maneuvering by offering to support the Harkonnen family

[00:15:24] in the lawns rod and a princess Inez finds herself trapped in court politics and unable to

[00:15:32] pursue sisterhood training.

[00:15:34] The tension culminates in a dramatic high council meeting where multiple plots converge.

[00:15:39] Desmond Hart reveals a rebel conspiracy and demonstrates a dangerous power that injures him in the process,

[00:15:47] giving Valia the opportunity to collect his blood for genetic testing.

[00:15:50] The, uh, invent also involves various other political machinations, including an assassination

[00:15:56] plot involving an Ixian drone and the Empress taking independent action and sister Theodosia

[00:16:03] transforming and Lila breaking out of her spice bowl.

[00:16:08] Nancy, thank you again for the summary.

[00:16:11] Thank you again for all of the show guide material.

[00:16:14] Again, go to the show guide.

[00:16:15] If you need help remembering who these different characters are.

[00:16:19] And if you want to dive into a deeper analysis of these scene by scenes, we're using her descriptions

[00:16:24] as our outline.

[00:16:25] In some cases I use her words directly and in other cases I've modified them for brevity a little

[00:16:29] bit, but let's start with, uh, sisterhood nightmares for all on Wallach nine.

[00:16:35] Sister Emmeline is startled awake while splashing some water on her face.

[00:16:40] She sees, uh, she hears a woman, a woman's voice faintly calling her and she follows a

[00:16:45] ghostly figure through the halls.

[00:16:47] She follows as more voices whisper at the central fountain.

[00:16:50] She sees herself using a knife to cut her own throat.

[00:16:54] A scream awakes sister Jen and all the other sisters are having nightmares.

[00:16:59] Jen runs to Emmeline at the edge of the pool and stops her, uh, before she is able to hurt

[00:17:04] herself.

[00:17:05] We see visions of the desert, the mouth of a worm and the blue eyes garbled speech.

[00:17:11] I have a quick question for you.

[00:17:14] Uh, Alicia did, do you think it, did Jen have a dream or is she lying about that?

[00:17:21] I thought, I thought she was the only one who did not have the dream.

[00:17:25] Okay.

[00:17:25] So you don't think she, you think she actually did not have a dream.

[00:17:28] I've heard some theories.

[00:17:29] She was awake when everyone else was having the dream.

[00:17:32] Yeah.

[00:17:33] I heard some theories that people were saying that she had a dream, but she's lying about

[00:17:36] it because she knows she'd get sucked into the, uh, Tula's machinations.

[00:17:40] I think it's weirder that she's the only one who wasn't.

[00:17:43] That's going to make Tula pay more attention to her.

[00:17:46] Right.

[00:17:47] Yeah, that's true.

[00:17:48] That's true.

[00:17:49] I think it's, I don't know.

[00:17:51] We don't know what is up with you.

[00:17:53] Like how is sister, how is sister Jen not able to have a dream, right?

[00:17:57] How is she not being affected?

[00:17:59] So that's really interesting.

[00:18:00] That's a big question mark, right?

[00:18:02] Big question.

[00:18:03] Um, I thought, do you have a theory on what's going on here?

[00:18:12] Do you have any mystery box sort of clues that you're pulling out?

[00:18:15] I mean, this is all connected to the reckoning.

[00:18:18] Yeah.

[00:18:18] It all goes back to the, the eyes in the sky and the voice.

[00:18:22] And I don't know if you want me to say here who my theories have been on that,

[00:18:25] but, um, well, let's maybe save that, but you have a theory.

[00:18:29] Are you, do you have a working theory of the case?

[00:18:31] I mean, just the same one that I've been saying for weeks.

[00:18:33] This didn't change anything about it.

[00:18:34] If anything, it confirms.

[00:18:36] Okay.

[00:18:37] Yeah.

[00:18:37] I feel like we were definitely getting a door or a sister Dorothea breakthrough,

[00:18:42] right?

[00:18:43] Somehow she's coming out because that we see later on.

[00:18:47] Um, I mean the, the whole knife at the pool edge thing.

[00:18:52] And then later on with Emmeline.

[00:18:54] Yeah.

[00:18:54] It feels like there are some influences from that other part of the sisterhood that

[00:19:00] Valia, you know, the more faithful that Valia, you know,

[00:19:03] Do you think she is somehow the blue eyes in the sky that she's the one?

[00:19:09] Wouldn't it be funny if she was, Oh,

[00:19:12] Oh, what if she was born in spice again because she's taken over Lila?

[00:19:17] That's what I'm wondering is, is, is what is her influence?

[00:19:21] How is her influence coming out?

[00:19:22] Cause I see definite signs of her influence here.

[00:19:25] So yeah.

[00:19:27] Uh, and then it was interesting too,

[00:19:29] that this whole dream and the sand falling,

[00:19:32] we kind of get those motifs a lot.

[00:19:34] And then I really liked the fact that they used a thumper sound at the very

[00:19:41] beginning of this episode, when the screen's still black, we hear a shoom,

[00:19:44] boom, shoom, boom, you know,

[00:19:45] and that was just a great sound effect to like bring us into this weird moment.

[00:19:51] Have we explained thumpers for anyone who doesn't know?

[00:19:53] I don't think so.

[00:19:54] Do you want to give a quick?

[00:19:55] Um, so a thumper basically is a device that's used,

[00:19:59] that pounds the sand rhythmically and that, um,

[00:20:03] any rhythmic sounds like that on the sands of Arrakis call the worms.

[00:20:07] The worms are like, Oh food and go after it.

[00:20:09] So they use the thumpers to call the worms basically.

[00:20:12] Right.

[00:20:13] And they're using it,

[00:20:14] that sounds very well throughout the,

[00:20:16] throughout the episode, I think.

[00:20:17] Yeah.

[00:20:18] And we see an actual thumper later.

[00:20:20] Right.

[00:20:20] A couple of times.

[00:20:21] Yeah.

[00:20:22] Uh,

[00:20:23] did you notice that when she turned around,

[00:20:25] when Emily turned around,

[00:20:26] her eyes were sewn shut?

[00:20:28] I didn't realize that at first until someone mentioned it.

[00:20:31] And then I was like, Oh yeah.

[00:20:33] Yeah.

[00:20:33] Yeah.

[00:20:33] It was a weird.

[00:20:34] I,

[00:20:34] that that's a new element and I don't know what that's necessarily about.

[00:20:38] I, it does.

[00:20:39] It certainly plays with the idea of truth.

[00:20:41] You know,

[00:20:42] we often talk about opening your eyes to truth or,

[00:20:45] you know,

[00:20:45] your eyes being shut to the truth.

[00:20:46] So I don't know if they're just playing with that theme or if it's,

[00:20:49] if there's something more specific.

[00:20:52] All right,

[00:20:53] let's move on.

[00:20:53] Offer of restitution.

[00:20:55] Under the gaze of a portrait of Griffin at the Harkonnen residence on

[00:21:00] Seleuze secundus,

[00:21:02] secundus,

[00:21:02] mother superior Valia offers to be truth-sayer for the Harkonnen family at the

[00:21:07] lens rad.

[00:21:09] So certainly foreshadowing Griffin here in,

[00:21:12] in this episode,

[00:21:13] because the big portrait,

[00:21:15] like,

[00:21:15] Hey,

[00:21:15] let's take a big shot of that.

[00:21:17] And again,

[00:21:18] this goes into what I was saying before.

[00:21:19] They,

[00:21:19] they have these definite patterns for their episode setup.

[00:21:22] So a lot of teasing and foreshadowing at the beginning that it will pay off

[00:21:26] at the end.

[00:21:28] Um,

[00:21:29] and then we have this interesting line here.

[00:21:31] We serve truth and hearsay serves panic.

[00:21:34] Hmm.

[00:21:35] That's true.

[00:21:36] But again,

[00:21:38] what is Valia's definition of truth?

[00:21:40] Because it's has a tenuous relationship with absolute truth.

[00:21:45] Right.

[00:21:46] Right.

[00:21:47] And then,

[00:21:48] uh,

[00:21:49] even though Ganey uncle of Ganey is a bit of a,

[00:21:53] uh,

[00:21:54] uh,

[00:21:54] a character,

[00:21:55] let's say,

[00:21:56] Hmm.

[00:21:57] He's not wrong in his assessments that she's going to use Harrow,

[00:22:03] right?

[00:22:03] For her own purposes.

[00:22:05] But I think Harrow is,

[00:22:08] uh,

[00:22:08] doesn't have,

[00:22:09] he's not able to see the,

[00:22:11] the lesson of the trap,

[00:22:12] which is knowing where the trap is,

[00:22:14] is the first step in evading it.

[00:22:17] Even though Duke Leto didn't evade the trap,

[00:22:19] you know,

[00:22:20] he knew it was coming,

[00:22:21] but he still got caught by it in the first movie and book.

[00:22:24] But,

[00:22:25] uh,

[00:22:25] I thought that was a fun detail and they've really given us the visual design for

[00:22:31] the on off switch for truth sense,

[00:22:33] right?

[00:22:33] Yeah.

[00:22:33] The finger with the fingers.

[00:22:34] And that click.

[00:22:35] Yeah.

[00:22:36] Yeah.

[00:22:36] Yeah.

[00:22:37] Um,

[00:22:38] and I don't think that's canon necessarily to the books.

[00:22:44] Well,

[00:22:45] I,

[00:22:45] like I said,

[00:22:45] I think it's just,

[00:22:46] um,

[00:22:47] it's,

[00:22:48] it's relates to how people meditate in real life that you might use.

[00:22:52] Uh,

[00:22:53] you might use certain,

[00:22:54] put your hands a certain way,

[00:22:55] say you certain words of concentration,

[00:22:57] like,

[00:22:58] Oh,

[00:22:58] you know,

[00:22:59] this all of,

[00:23:00] if you see people doing that to meditate,

[00:23:01] it's just a way of helping yourself achieve,

[00:23:04] a deeper level of concentration.

[00:23:07] Right.

[00:23:08] Right.

[00:23:08] Signaling yourself like time to,

[00:23:10] yeah.

[00:23:10] Yeah.

[00:23:11] Just getting,

[00:23:13] you know,

[00:23:13] focusing your mind and letting all the other distractions fall away.

[00:23:18] I,

[00:23:18] I don't.

[00:23:19] And in,

[00:23:19] for an onscreen purpose,

[00:23:21] I think it's useful.

[00:23:22] I know that in the 84 movie,

[00:23:24] they really struggled with how do we make the house of tradies really bad-ass?

[00:23:31] Uh,

[00:23:31] well,

[00:23:31] uh,

[00:23:32] we'll make weirding modules,

[00:23:33] right?

[00:23:33] So they made something up that was completely outside of it.

[00:23:37] And I don't know for that movie.

[00:23:38] It works.

[00:23:39] I still like them.

[00:23:40] I like the idea.

[00:23:41] Yeah.

[00:23:41] Yeah.

[00:23:42] I like the idea a lot.

[00:23:43] Do you have any thoughts as to why she was,

[00:23:47] why,

[00:23:48] um,

[00:23:48] Reverend mother,

[00:23:49] uh,

[00:23:49] Valia was withholding a true sayer?

[00:23:53] Yeah.

[00:23:54] I mean,

[00:23:54] that's something I left some notes later about this,

[00:23:58] but I am just,

[00:23:59] it's,

[00:24:00] this is remains a,

[00:24:02] just everything they're doing with Valia's character remains for me,

[00:24:04] a sticking point of why I can't get fully into this series.

[00:24:09] Um,

[00:24:09] I just am very confused about what her motivations are.

[00:24:14] Um,

[00:24:14] I mean,

[00:24:14] I guess,

[00:24:15] you know,

[00:24:15] we talked before about the vow that she stayed out in the rain and didn't

[00:24:20] want to take them.

[00:24:21] Raquel said,

[00:24:21] I'll come in and,

[00:24:22] you know,

[00:24:23] um,

[00:24:23] cause she was so impressed by her.

[00:24:25] And I guess we're supposed to understand that she did take the vow

[00:24:30] eventually.

[00:24:30] And she's putting the sisterhood of,

[00:24:32] she's been putting the sisterhood above her own house.

[00:24:34] But yeah,

[00:24:35] just again,

[00:24:36] a lot of confusion for me.

[00:24:37] Yeah.

[00:24:38] Yeah.

[00:24:38] Yeah.

[00:24:38] I wasn't sure if it was just out of spite because of her beef with

[00:24:42] uncle Evgeny,

[00:24:44] or if she was trying to maneuver the house into a particular position so

[00:24:48] that then she could use them,

[00:24:50] you know,

[00:24:50] but now she wants to throw her nephew under the bus.

[00:24:52] I'm like,

[00:24:53] yeah,

[00:24:54] yeah.

[00:24:55] Yeah.

[00:24:55] She's got a complex relationship with her own family while she's trying

[00:24:58] to raise them up.

[00:24:59] She's not doing them any favors in the meantime.

[00:25:02] So,

[00:25:02] all right.

[00:25:03] Family disunity on Saluza secundus at breakfast.

[00:25:06] Inez confronts Havako about the death of Pruitt.

[00:25:09] Her request to study on Wallach nine is denied.

[00:25:12] She realizes that Desmond did in fact kill Pruitt.

[00:25:16] Desmond cites the law regarding thinking machines as justification.

[00:25:22] Bro still has his duster on.

[00:25:25] Folks on discord.

[00:25:26] I told you that's his propaganda.

[00:25:29] If he changes into something fancy,

[00:25:31] then he undermines his own credibility as the desert man.

[00:25:36] Yes.

[00:25:36] Yes.

[00:25:37] And I think we're about to get a new uniform,

[00:25:39] right?

[00:25:39] Cause this in,

[00:25:40] in this fight,

[00:25:41] one of the final scenes here,

[00:25:42] you know,

[00:25:42] he's got all that blood on the back of it,

[00:25:45] but I think they're definitely using change the jacket or he keeps the blood

[00:25:48] on the jacket because more propaganda.

[00:25:50] Well,

[00:25:51] we do see him in a new uniform in the trailer.

[00:25:53] So spoilers,

[00:25:54] I guess for that,

[00:25:55] the,

[00:25:56] I,

[00:25:57] and I think the,

[00:25:58] the show runners are definitely using the uniform change as a signal change

[00:26:04] to us,

[00:26:04] right?

[00:26:04] A very visual,

[00:26:06] like at some point he's going to go from this to that.

[00:26:09] And the uniform change will signal that very strongly.

[00:26:13] So,

[00:26:13] and I'm,

[00:26:14] I,

[00:26:14] folks on,

[00:26:15] on our discord were giving me a hard time cause I was complaining.

[00:26:18] I I'm doing it more in jest.

[00:26:19] I'm,

[00:26:20] I'm sort of having fun.

[00:26:21] So,

[00:26:23] um,

[00:26:24] did I,

[00:26:24] did you notice that Haviko refers to his children as children?

[00:26:29] Like,

[00:26:29] bro,

[00:26:30] they're adults.

[00:26:32] I guess your children are always your children.

[00:26:34] That's what my mom would say.

[00:26:35] Right.

[00:26:36] I,

[00:26:36] I guess,

[00:26:36] but you know,

[00:26:37] he's,

[00:26:37] he's very much,

[00:26:38] there's a lot of tension there,

[00:26:40] obviously between,

[00:26:41] uh,

[00:26:42] between him and his son,

[00:26:43] you know,

[00:26:43] that's going to play out later.

[00:26:45] And then when,

[00:26:47] um,

[00:26:47] uh,

[00:26:49] Inez mentions the rumor,

[00:26:51] the camera sort of obviously shifts to,

[00:26:53] uh,

[00:26:54] to Natalia,

[00:26:55] you know,

[00:26:56] sort of again,

[00:26:56] foreshadowing.

[00:26:57] I didn't,

[00:26:58] yeah,

[00:26:58] I didn't catch that because at this point I was like,

[00:27:00] Oh,

[00:27:00] the Richesies must've started it because of course the Richesies would go home

[00:27:03] and be like,

[00:27:04] they killed our son.

[00:27:05] Right.

[00:27:06] Right.

[00:27:06] So I,

[00:27:07] these burn marks on my husband.

[00:27:09] I do like the multi angle political situation that we're in here,

[00:27:14] right?

[00:27:14] We've got Inez,

[00:27:15] we've got the sisters,

[00:27:16] we've got the different houses,

[00:27:17] everybody sort of angling.

[00:27:20] So I think they're doing it.

[00:27:20] It should be,

[00:27:21] but I feel like it's clumsily handled.

[00:27:24] Okay.

[00:27:24] Yeah.

[00:27:24] There's some,

[00:27:25] some parts to it.

[00:27:26] Some of the writing,

[00:27:27] especially around the rebellion stuff.

[00:27:29] But anyway,

[00:27:29] whispers and lies on Wallach nine,

[00:27:31] Chula and Avila question Emmeline and Jen about what happened.

[00:27:34] And we learned that Jen,

[00:27:36] did not have a dream dot,

[00:27:38] dot,

[00:27:38] dot,

[00:27:39] question mark,

[00:27:39] question mark.

[00:27:40] I noticed that at the beginning of the scene,

[00:27:43] Chula's voices are getting louder.

[00:27:45] And I think they're doing that as a sound effect throughout.

[00:27:47] We're hearing the voices more prominently rather than just sort of quietly.

[00:27:51] So I think they're ramp again,

[00:27:53] ramping up that tension,

[00:27:54] making us more aware of the other voices,

[00:27:57] the other memories speaking.

[00:27:59] But I guess using true sense on your Reverend mother is probably not a good

[00:28:06] do.

[00:28:07] Awkward.

[00:28:09] Totally awkward.

[00:28:10] She totally got called out,

[00:28:12] which I mean,

[00:28:12] of course,

[00:28:13] I guess at least that puts her in line.

[00:28:16] And,

[00:28:17] and they're definitely setting up the tension between her and Emmeline later.

[00:28:20] And then of course,

[00:28:21] Emmeline being a,

[00:28:22] somebody who's looking more towards the faith and being potentially affected or

[00:28:28] influenced by Dorothea's thoughts about what the sisterhood should be doing.

[00:28:35] Yeah.

[00:28:35] And I,

[00:28:35] and like I mentioned before at the,

[00:28:37] in the beginning about,

[00:28:38] about Jen and did she have a dream or not?

[00:28:41] Yeah.

[00:28:41] I think there's some conversation like our,

[00:28:43] our people are,

[00:28:44] you know,

[00:28:46] some folks might,

[00:28:47] might be thinking that she's,

[00:28:48] you know,

[00:28:49] keeping that truth,

[00:28:50] withholding that truth,

[00:28:52] so that she can be external to the situation.

[00:28:56] Whereas what if she did have it?

[00:28:57] Is she being affected by it?

[00:28:59] I mean,

[00:28:59] she was awake,

[00:29:00] so I don't think she had it.

[00:29:02] Okay.

[00:29:02] All right.

[00:29:04] I,

[00:29:04] I,

[00:29:04] I read it.

[00:29:05] It makes her,

[00:29:06] it makes her more stand out more not to have had it.

[00:29:09] So I don't see what the logic would be in her pretending.

[00:29:13] The other thing I want to flag to is Avila.

[00:29:15] I can't quite track her.

[00:29:17] She seems to be having different motivations that aren't necessarily congruent depending on the

[00:29:21] situations.

[00:29:22] It feels like she's,

[00:29:23] um,

[00:29:24] Valia's pet.

[00:29:26] Definitely.

[00:29:26] But then I also kind of feel like she's the writer's pet and they kind of keep using her as a foil to Tula.

[00:29:31] And I don't know if she's got a,

[00:29:32] a true motivation as a character or if they're just using her as a mechanical foil.

[00:29:38] I can't quite track what Avila is up to.

[00:29:41] So we'll see if anything pays out of it.

[00:29:43] The end,

[00:29:43] a call to order on Seleucus Secondus as the speaker of the Lonserod high council reads a roll call.

[00:29:50] A highliner releases spaceships,

[00:29:52] which descend towards the capital city.

[00:29:55] A ceremonial horn is blown and he calls the council to order.

[00:29:59] The members thump twice on their chests with their fists response.

[00:30:03] Many of the nobles are accompanied by their tooth sayers and we get house Yasu Hagel,

[00:30:10] um,

[00:30:11] Gabong,

[00:30:12] Gabong Bala.

[00:30:13] Sorry.

[00:30:13] That's a little bit difficult for me to pronounce.

[00:30:15] And Vernius and Yaufurcus.

[00:30:19] I,

[00:30:19] I know I got in trouble for not recognizing Richaise.

[00:30:22] I didn't get in trouble,

[00:30:23] but Richaise,

[00:30:23] missing Richaise last time.

[00:30:25] And I don't recognize any of these,

[00:30:26] but I didn't do any research on it.

[00:30:28] No,

[00:30:28] I didn't look any of them up either.

[00:30:30] And if they become important,

[00:30:31] I will.

[00:30:32] Yeah.

[00:30:33] And it's certainly introducing characters and houses to us so that throughout the episode,

[00:30:39] we have a reference point,

[00:30:41] right?

[00:30:42] So my initial complaint on this was I thought that the council chamber was way too small versus what I

[00:30:48] imagined,

[00:30:49] you know,

[00:30:49] based on how it's described in books.

[00:30:51] But then they said in the official podcast,

[00:30:54] this is the high council.

[00:30:55] So it's fewer of them.

[00:30:57] So that's explanation.

[00:30:59] And I know the real explanation is budget,

[00:31:02] but that's fine.

[00:31:02] I will accept that.

[00:31:04] Fair enough.

[00:31:06] So then we're,

[00:31:07] we're getting a lot of this thematic elements here that like gravity brings order,

[00:31:12] the lawns rod brings stability and that they serve.

[00:31:15] So we get this sort of little expositional,

[00:31:17] you know,

[00:31:18] moments here of how they're setting up the lawns rod as this check in the noble houses,

[00:31:24] as this check on the power of the emperor.

[00:31:28] And that's part of,

[00:31:29] um,

[00:31:30] I don't want to say it's an argument,

[00:31:31] but one of the ways that I like to analyze the OG books is the real balance of power is between the Bene Gesserit and the,

[00:31:41] uh,

[00:31:42] Sardaukar in the originals,

[00:31:44] because,

[00:31:45] you know,

[00:31:46] even though the Sardaukar are tied to the emperor,

[00:31:49] they are this very stabilizing force.

[00:31:52] And the Bene Gesserit are also this sort of stable.

[00:31:55] They're almost like fascia of the body,

[00:31:57] you know,

[00:31:57] in the nerves of the body,

[00:31:59] they're holding everything together.

[00:32:00] And so I think they're really clearly setting up the stakes for the emperor to have a force that he can use to check the lawns rod,

[00:32:11] right?

[00:32:11] So we have to,

[00:32:12] you know,

[00:32:12] the,

[00:32:13] the seat of the emperor and the,

[00:32:14] and the conglomeration of the noble houses and setting up that power dynamic.

[00:32:22] All right.

[00:32:22] Use me.

[00:32:23] Seleuze secondus.

[00:32:24] Desmond being creepy and burning pages from Kasha's book is confronted by the emperor.

[00:32:30] Desmond denies spreading the rumors.

[00:32:32] And propositions Havako to use him to bring his enemies to heal.

[00:32:38] Havako declines.

[00:32:40] So we've got some feedback from Nancy.

[00:32:44] She picked up on something later about the Hazar language,

[00:32:47] but do you want to mention anything here?

[00:32:50] This is from me.

[00:32:50] Okay.

[00:32:51] Well,

[00:32:51] I know,

[00:32:51] but we got a big feedback from Nancy.

[00:32:53] Oh,

[00:32:53] she,

[00:32:53] okay.

[00:32:54] In the feedback document.

[00:32:55] Yeah.

[00:32:55] She posted something on the discord in the night.

[00:32:57] Hopefully it's in the feedback,

[00:32:59] but yeah,

[00:33:00] do you want to just talk about that a little bit here?

[00:33:02] Um,

[00:33:03] well,

[00:33:03] just basically the,

[00:33:04] as our language was a language of the sorceresses of Rosak,

[00:33:08] who were the predecessors of the sisterhood in that,

[00:33:11] that's that previous super toxic planet that they used to live on.

[00:33:15] Right.

[00:33:15] Um,

[00:33:16] and yeah,

[00:33:17] there,

[00:33:17] so they,

[00:33:18] the book,

[00:33:18] the Bene Gesserit use,

[00:33:20] you know,

[00:33:20] millennia later is still,

[00:33:22] they still use this as our language from them as a sort of code.

[00:33:26] So other people can't read it.

[00:33:27] So you sort of have to question,

[00:33:29] Oh,

[00:33:29] Desmond can read this or is this some sort of translated version or is it just the TV show being like simplifying the lore?

[00:33:37] So,

[00:33:37] um,

[00:34:06] um,

[00:34:08] gives him a page to burn Havako.

[00:34:10] Not only won't burn it,

[00:34:11] he puts it down and smooths it out and sort of like touches it reverently.

[00:34:15] Good catch.

[00:34:15] Like he's still missing Kasha.

[00:34:19] Yeah.

[00:34:19] Yeah.

[00:34:19] I think you're right.

[00:34:20] That was a very,

[00:34:21] um,

[00:34:22] intimate and gentle moment with a page that clearly,

[00:34:26] I think emotionally ties him to,

[00:34:28] to Kasha and his,

[00:34:29] his,

[00:34:30] his missing her.

[00:34:31] I think that's a,

[00:34:32] I think it's a good call.

[00:34:33] Um,

[00:34:34] what you seek is seeking you.

[00:34:36] I thought that was interesting line.

[00:34:38] That was a,

[00:34:39] that was a bit of a tease with the whole reckoning and the,

[00:34:41] the,

[00:34:41] the interplay between Desmond and the,

[00:34:44] and the sisterhood.

[00:34:45] Um,

[00:34:47] and,

[00:34:48] um,

[00:34:49] I also liked Desmond's line here.

[00:34:51] I,

[00:34:51] I'd never use the truth against you again,

[00:34:55] using this idea of truth.

[00:34:58] Truth is a truth can be used as a weapon or a tool,

[00:35:02] you know,

[00:35:02] depending on who's wielding it or who's holding it.

[00:35:05] Right.

[00:35:05] Right.

[00:35:06] And we certainly see that later with Inez saying,

[00:35:09] Inez saying,

[00:35:10] Oh,

[00:35:10] I'm going to go tell the lawns rod about your,

[00:35:12] you know,

[00:35:13] being naughty.

[00:35:13] And it's like,

[00:35:15] okay.

[00:35:15] That's a,

[00:35:16] that,

[00:35:17] you know,

[00:35:17] you're,

[00:35:17] you think you're going to use the truth,

[00:35:19] but you know,

[00:35:19] other people understand this as well.

[00:35:21] And,

[00:35:22] uh,

[00:35:22] yeah,

[00:35:23] I,

[00:35:23] I think,

[00:35:24] uh,

[00:35:25] this idea of whose truth,

[00:35:28] how truth is revealed,

[00:35:30] uh,

[00:35:31] you know,

[00:35:31] what other truths might counter.

[00:35:33] I think that's all,

[00:35:34] uh,

[00:35:34] I think they're having a lot of fun playing with a lot of those themes.

[00:35:37] Yeah.

[00:35:38] Uh,

[00:35:39] we got a mention of,

[00:35:40] uh,

[00:35:40] Titans and I did not read up on Titans before we got to the podcast,

[00:35:45] but does,

[00:35:47] or a Haviko says,

[00:35:48] my forefathers,

[00:35:49] you know,

[00:35:50] battled Titans.

[00:35:51] Right.

[00:35:51] So one important thing to know is that Agnomenon,

[00:35:56] who he renamed himself that I forget what his name was before that as a human.

[00:36:00] Um,

[00:36:00] he is Vorian's father.

[00:36:03] Okay.

[00:36:04] Vorian Atreides who keeps getting brought up and yeah,

[00:36:08] he was kind of,

[00:36:08] he was the leader of the Titans and they were,

[00:36:10] they started as humans,

[00:36:12] but sort of augmented themselves to the point that they basically became robots themselves more or less.

[00:36:19] Oh,

[00:36:19] interesting.

[00:36:20] Okay.

[00:36:20] And it's because of him that Vorian ended up,

[00:36:22] you know,

[00:36:23] having this life extension and all this stuff.

[00:36:25] And,

[00:36:25] um,

[00:36:25] we may have seen a glimpse of him in the opening scene of the first episode.

[00:36:30] Oh,

[00:36:31] really?

[00:36:32] Um,

[00:36:33] it's interesting.

[00:36:33] We'll see if they bring it back,

[00:36:34] but I have another question about this scene going back to Desmond.

[00:36:38] Um,

[00:36:39] so Desmond,

[00:36:40] his goal in the seems,

[00:36:41] he seems to be,

[00:36:42] he wants to get all truth sayers removed from the Lons rod.

[00:36:46] And my question is,

[00:36:48] why is this to protect himself from something that they would be able to sense?

[00:36:52] Is it to manipulate,

[00:36:55] just give himself more control in general?

[00:36:57] Um,

[00:36:58] he says they're manipulative and he's definitely,

[00:37:00] certainly not wrong about that,

[00:37:01] but clearly he is as well.

[00:37:03] So pot kettle black.

[00:37:06] Right.

[00:37:06] And he's,

[00:37:07] he's putting himself in the position of being,

[00:37:10] well,

[00:37:10] I'm just serving you.

[00:37:11] Like I'm dedicated to you,

[00:37:13] but yeah,

[00:37:14] like,

[00:37:14] okay,

[00:37:15] what's your real mission here?

[00:37:16] And is he,

[00:37:17] is he an agent for another power that we've have yet to really,

[00:37:22] uh,

[00:37:23] explore?

[00:37:25] So,

[00:37:26] yeah,

[00:37:26] I don't know what other tracks they're laying because just him.

[00:37:29] I mean,

[00:37:30] he's just a soldier,

[00:37:32] right?

[00:37:32] So what's his,

[00:37:33] what's his motivation?

[00:37:34] But I think we've got some mystery box hints towards the end here that we'll talk about.

[00:37:39] Get into the,

[00:37:40] to the big council scene.

[00:37:42] Um,

[00:37:42] one other thing about the Titans that since I said that,

[00:37:45] uh,

[00:37:46] I can say that name,

[00:37:47] my father,

[00:37:49] I just feel like I should point out that Vorian did end up turning on him and siding with the Butlerians.

[00:37:55] Um,

[00:37:56] but also,

[00:37:58] you know,

[00:37:59] there could be,

[00:37:59] that's a thing that could be misinterpreted,

[00:38:02] you know,

[00:38:02] by people who want to misinterpret things.

[00:38:05] Valia Harcote.

[00:38:08] Nice.

[00:38:10] All right.

[00:38:10] The cost of a big boom on Seleuza,

[00:38:12] Sicundus,

[00:38:13] Kyrian Atreides,

[00:38:15] and Horus meet with Duri,

[00:38:16] an Ixion.

[00:38:18] They exchange 10 million Solari for a box holding what appears to be a small drone.

[00:38:24] Duri says the Imperial guards have been making things difficult,

[00:38:26] causing him to need to lay low and improvise.

[00:38:30] The drone will do all manner of things that they want to do,

[00:38:33] only better when they ask how he replies really big boom.

[00:38:39] So we get an Ixion.

[00:38:41] Uh,

[00:38:42] he looks pretty much like a sort of central casting TV thug.

[00:38:46] Kind of guy that you would meet in a dark alley.

[00:38:48] So I didn't think it doesn't look like it.

[00:38:50] Yeah.

[00:38:51] Maybe,

[00:38:51] maybe that's who,

[00:38:52] because the Ixians are known for their machines.

[00:38:55] He does not look like an engineer.

[00:38:57] I'm don't mean to stereotype,

[00:38:58] but maybe he's the person that they have to these covert missions to negotiate and stuff because he's more.

[00:39:04] Right.

[00:39:05] The back alley thug.

[00:39:07] I'm trying to remember in the original books,

[00:39:10] we never really,

[00:39:12] Ix is always referred to as this thing outside,

[00:39:14] and I can't remember any specific engagements with,

[00:39:18] uh,

[00:39:18] with Ixians.

[00:39:19] I mean,

[00:39:19] they're just humans,

[00:39:20] but they specialize in technology.

[00:39:22] It's like a planet Intel or planet NVIDIA or something like that,

[00:39:25] where they're just,

[00:39:26] they're all about the technology.

[00:39:28] And obviously the,

[00:39:29] the prohibition on thinking machines is not a prohibition against technology.

[00:39:35] Like we need technology,

[00:39:37] but we can't,

[00:39:38] the rule is you can't make a machine in the,

[00:39:42] in the likeness of the mind of a human being,

[00:39:44] because a human being is special is,

[00:39:47] is,

[00:39:48] uh,

[00:39:48] is a holy thing.

[00:39:49] Right.

[00:39:49] Mm-hmm.

[00:39:51] So,

[00:39:52] uh,

[00:39:52] I also thought that this sort of,

[00:39:54] uh,

[00:39:55] this little drone thing calls back to the hunter seeker and calls,

[00:40:00] uh,

[00:40:00] in the original books.

[00:40:02] Yeah.

[00:40:02] It looks like a prototypical hunter seeker,

[00:40:04] but I guess bigger because it's supposed to do really big boom.

[00:40:08] And a hunter seeker just stabs you with a needle.

[00:40:10] Right.

[00:40:11] And it's operator controlled while this is autonomous,

[00:40:13] which I think is relevant to our modern age.

[00:40:18] It's a drone warfare,

[00:40:19] drone technology in warfare,

[00:40:21] I think is going to like artillery,

[00:40:24] like machine gun,

[00:40:24] like all these horrible things,

[00:40:26] but that how they,

[00:40:27] how,

[00:40:28] how those technologies have affected how warfare is conducted.

[00:40:31] I think autonomous,

[00:40:32] you know,

[00:40:33] loitering munitions,

[00:40:34] drones,

[00:40:35] all of this stuff is,

[00:40:36] is a big technological adaptation.

[00:40:38] That's going to change how war is fought.

[00:40:40] Well,

[00:40:41] I mean,

[00:40:41] but that's,

[00:40:42] that's a thinking machine.

[00:40:43] So I guess that's why later they are human operated because this version

[00:40:48] thinks for itself.

[00:40:49] Right.

[00:40:49] Right.

[00:40:50] Which I don't know if that's necessarily a good thing.

[00:40:53] All right.

[00:40:53] The cost of rebellion.

[00:40:55] Seleuze is second.

[00:40:55] Luce again,

[00:40:56] Kyrian and Horace arrive at the club in a private back room.

[00:41:00] Michaela asks whether there were any issues.

[00:41:03] And Kyrian responds that there were none and says the Ixians provided an

[00:41:07] autonomous drone modified with a thermal bomb.

[00:41:09] They exposit the plan for releasing the drone.

[00:41:13] And Michaela tells Kyrian that he appears spooked,

[00:41:16] making the Imperium better comes at a cost.

[00:41:19] She says,

[00:41:20] are you ready to pay it?

[00:41:21] Kyrian doesn't answer.

[00:41:23] The spice will flow.

[00:41:25] Sorry.

[00:41:26] Go ahead.

[00:41:26] I know.

[00:41:27] I wondered if she was like subtly trying to talk him out of it.

[00:41:30] I still do have a suspicion that maybe she has some care for him,

[00:41:34] even though she gave up his name so quickly.

[00:41:36] Yeah.

[00:41:37] I'd buy that.

[00:41:38] Or she could have just been trying to manipulate him for,

[00:41:40] you know,

[00:41:41] values purposes,

[00:41:42] but maybe not because value was,

[00:41:45] yeah.

[00:41:47] Well,

[00:41:47] I have thoughts about how Desmond finds things out later.

[00:41:51] Okay.

[00:41:51] I mean,

[00:41:52] there is a point of Michaela's motivations here.

[00:41:57] I mean,

[00:41:57] she's worked very carefully to set up the sort of,

[00:42:03] I don't want to say rebels,

[00:42:04] but you know,

[00:42:04] the,

[00:42:05] the,

[00:42:05] the operations,

[00:42:07] her,

[00:42:07] her rebel cell,

[00:42:08] as it were on,

[00:42:09] on Arrakis and,

[00:42:13] you know,

[00:42:13] cultivating all of her contacts and all these kinds of things.

[00:42:16] And then Vali is like,

[00:42:16] burn it,

[00:42:17] right?

[00:42:17] Like we're using it as sacrifice.

[00:42:19] I suppose that could be a little bit grating.

[00:42:22] And so,

[00:42:23] but the fact that Michaela,

[00:42:24] you know,

[00:42:24] Michaela still,

[00:42:26] she's still dedicated to the sisterhood.

[00:42:28] So like whatever Vali says,

[00:42:30] but I think there's a little,

[00:42:31] there's a potential for a little tension between her and Vali.

[00:42:36] So we get the line,

[00:42:38] the spice will flow.

[00:42:38] I was like,

[00:42:40] I don't know if that one struck you at all,

[00:42:43] but it kind of,

[00:42:44] I was like,

[00:42:44] okay,

[00:42:45] that's fine.

[00:42:47] And then we see Michaela grab a couple of vials and I'm guessing that's the drug that they're all using.

[00:42:53] And I think in this episode,

[00:42:55] are you,

[00:42:56] do you think this is spice what they're huffing?

[00:42:58] Based on what they said in the episode,

[00:43:00] they said,

[00:43:01] well,

[00:43:01] what are you all doing here?

[00:43:02] And yeah,

[00:43:03] it sounds like they're huffing spice,

[00:43:05] but then that makes me wonder,

[00:43:07] like,

[00:43:07] are none of these people addicts?

[00:43:09] Why is Michaela?

[00:43:10] The only one with the blue and blue eyes,

[00:43:12] right?

[00:43:13] Is it,

[00:43:13] is it a dosing level kind of thing?

[00:43:15] Like this is just a tiny amount.

[00:43:17] And so they're,

[00:43:18] they're just getting a minimal effect.

[00:43:21] Um,

[00:43:21] and I kind of question the motives of this rebellion.

[00:43:26] Like you want the spice to flow.

[00:43:28] You,

[00:43:28] you are pro drug use here.

[00:43:30] You want everybody to have access to this substance.

[00:43:34] And,

[00:43:35] um,

[00:43:35] for what purpose,

[00:43:36] you know,

[00:43:37] I don't know.

[00:43:37] I just kind of question.

[00:43:38] I mean,

[00:43:38] it is,

[00:43:39] it is geriatric as well,

[00:43:41] but yeah.

[00:43:42] Yeah.

[00:43:42] Yeah.

[00:43:43] It's good for you.

[00:43:43] Right.

[00:43:44] Yeah.

[00:43:44] But it is addicting.

[00:43:45] Well,

[00:43:45] but I think,

[00:43:46] yeah,

[00:43:47] I mean,

[00:43:47] it is,

[00:43:48] it's,

[00:43:49] it's addicting,

[00:43:50] but it is like,

[00:43:51] it's something that the,

[00:43:52] everyone needs in this world,

[00:43:54] especially since,

[00:43:55] you know,

[00:43:55] it's used for space travel.

[00:43:56] It's used for health reasons.

[00:43:58] It's,

[00:43:58] you know,

[00:43:59] so,

[00:44:00] um,

[00:44:00] and I think there's just the idea in general about having the great houses,

[00:44:05] hoarding it is unfair.

[00:44:08] Right.

[00:44:08] It's true.

[00:44:10] Um,

[00:44:10] and I think it's a,

[00:44:11] maybe a quick little lore thing.

[00:44:13] The eyes of the Abad,

[00:44:15] uh,

[00:44:15] is a term to describe the blue within blue eyes.

[00:44:19] And it basically the eyes of the Abad,

[00:44:21] and I don't,

[00:44:22] um,

[00:44:22] I've not studied Arabic,

[00:44:23] so I,

[00:44:24] it is an Arabic inspired,

[00:44:26] term.

[00:44:27] And it basically denotes a master slave relationship or a,

[00:44:33] a,

[00:44:33] uh,

[00:44:34] a relationship that,

[00:44:35] that somebody is subservient to something else.

[00:44:38] And so when you have the blue on blue eyes,

[00:44:40] it means that you are addicted to spice.

[00:44:43] And so,

[00:44:43] uh,

[00:44:44] that's a term into it.

[00:44:46] Yeah.

[00:44:46] Yeah.

[00:44:46] You're subservient to it.

[00:44:47] And so you see,

[00:44:48] you hear that a lot in the,

[00:44:49] or you read that a lot in the original books.

[00:44:52] All right.

[00:44:53] Plans within plans.

[00:44:54] Seleucus Secundus back at the Harkonnen apartment.

[00:44:57] Valia records a voice message for Tula.

[00:45:00] And then the,

[00:45:01] she and Theodosia discuss the plan to save the emperor,

[00:45:05] to regain their position of power,

[00:45:07] and to use the rumors of Pruitt's death to their advantage.

[00:45:11] Valia kills a Solifugue.

[00:45:15] What is a Solifugue?

[00:45:16] A Solifugue is not a spider and is not an ant.

[00:45:20] It's the creature that she throws the knife at.

[00:45:23] Uh,

[00:45:23] a lot of times you,

[00:45:24] uh,

[00:45:24] it looks like it's in the scorpion spider family.

[00:45:27] It is,

[00:45:27] but it's,

[00:45:28] it's a different order.

[00:45:29] It is an,

[00:45:30] it's an order of arachnid,

[00:45:31] but it is not a scorpion.

[00:45:33] It's not an ant and it's not a spider.

[00:45:34] It's its own thing.

[00:45:35] And sometimes you'll hear people call them sun spiders or camel spiders or wind scorpions,

[00:45:40] but they don't have a scorpion stinging tail.

[00:45:43] Uh,

[00:45:44] and they are,

[00:45:46] uh,

[00:45:46] one,

[00:45:47] two,

[00:45:47] three,

[00:45:47] four,

[00:45:48] five.

[00:45:48] They're 10 legged.

[00:45:49] They're not eight legged.

[00:45:50] So they're,

[00:45:52] uh,

[00:45:52] they're very,

[00:45:53] they are their own,

[00:45:54] uh,

[00:45:54] thing.

[00:45:55] There's about a thousand different species.

[00:45:57] So,

[00:45:57] uh,

[00:45:58] and they're usually found in,

[00:45:59] in arid,

[00:46:00] uh,

[00:46:01] arid locations.

[00:46:02] But I think the thing that is interesting,

[00:46:06] is that,

[00:46:07] uh,

[00:46:08] if we go back to the first Dune movie,

[00:46:11] there is the scene where,

[00:46:13] uh,

[00:46:13] Reverend Mother Muhayyam meets with the Baron Harkonnen and she,

[00:46:18] and we see that creature feeding off to the side.

[00:46:21] And she says like,

[00:46:21] that thing's got to go.

[00:46:23] And Thufir Hawat,

[00:46:24] the Mentat says,

[00:46:25] oh,

[00:46:25] it doesn't understand language.

[00:46:27] And,

[00:46:28] uh,

[00:46:29] the Reverend Mother uses the voice on the creature to make it leave.

[00:46:33] So it's,

[00:46:34] you know,

[00:46:34] that thing was genetically engineered definitely to have language.

[00:46:38] Uh,

[00:46:39] but anyway,

[00:46:39] visit,

[00:46:40] visibly it looked like the same thing as this thing.

[00:46:43] Anyway,

[00:46:43] I think the point of this is they're showing that,

[00:46:46] uh,

[00:46:47] Valya might use her knife to,

[00:46:49] you know,

[00:46:49] throw her knife later on in the,

[00:46:51] in the big council meeting to,

[00:46:53] uh,

[00:46:53] to affect their plan.

[00:46:55] So I like to think,

[00:46:57] I said,

[00:46:58] when bringing up book stuff,

[00:46:58] I like to think this is a reference to Gerhard Harkonnen,

[00:47:01] who,

[00:47:03] and the written stuff had,

[00:47:05] um,

[00:47:06] at the Harkonnen consulate,

[00:47:07] he had like these exotic bug enclosures because he was a guy.

[00:47:11] Okay.

[00:47:12] I mean,

[00:47:12] he doesn't exist in this version of the story,

[00:47:14] but I like to think it's a wink.

[00:47:15] They're like,

[00:47:16] Alicia,

[00:47:16] we see you.

[00:47:17] Right.

[00:47:18] And like,

[00:47:19] why is this bug just randomly crawling out of this hole at this random

[00:47:22] moment?

[00:47:22] So yeah,

[00:47:23] I think,

[00:47:23] uh,

[00:47:23] I think that's maybe one of those little winks because they definitely

[00:47:26] have read a lot of the source material and there's lots of little

[00:47:29] things like this.

[00:47:30] Somebody has,

[00:47:30] I just think too many people got their hands on the scripts.

[00:47:34] Got it.

[00:47:35] Uh,

[00:47:36] right.

[00:47:37] Um,

[00:47:38] I was kind of thinking that she broke the recording because she's

[00:47:41] feeling like she's in a,

[00:47:43] she's having a moment of,

[00:47:44] of what she perceives as weakness or vulnerability.

[00:47:48] And she doesn't want any record of that.

[00:47:51] So she's like expressing her feelings,

[00:47:54] but then like,

[00:47:55] nah,

[00:47:55] I can't send this like that.

[00:47:57] Like I gotta,

[00:47:58] I gotta stay strong here and,

[00:47:59] and nor do I want anybody to,

[00:48:00] to have this in case this sort of falls in the,

[00:48:03] that's,

[00:48:03] that's the kind of way that I was reading it.

[00:48:05] Yeah.

[00:48:06] I wasn't sure.

[00:48:07] I mean,

[00:48:07] I,

[00:48:07] I also had the question like,

[00:48:09] cause we don't see people using these sort of voice recorders much,

[00:48:12] but they should be,

[00:48:13] they shouldn't really be a problem because they're not intelligent.

[00:48:17] Um,

[00:48:18] so I,

[00:48:19] yeah,

[00:48:19] I wasn't completely sure what was going on there myself with that.

[00:48:22] Yeah.

[00:48:23] These things are just kind of like data thumb drives,

[00:48:25] right?

[00:48:25] They're just the thumb drives.

[00:48:26] Cause,

[00:48:27] um,

[00:48:28] Desmond gets a box of them later from Natalia.

[00:48:31] Right.

[00:48:31] And they're just sort of records.

[00:48:32] So I wasn't worried.

[00:48:33] I didn't think it was about anti-technology,

[00:48:36] just more like,

[00:48:37] Hey,

[00:48:37] I'm pouring my heart out here in this very vulnerable moment.

[00:48:40] Oh God.

[00:48:41] I like,

[00:48:41] Ooh,

[00:48:42] like,

[00:48:42] why did I say,

[00:48:43] you know,

[00:48:43] I,

[00:48:43] I'm just getting my emotions out,

[00:48:45] but I don't want anybody to hear that or read that or see that.

[00:48:48] Yeah.

[00:48:48] I've,

[00:48:48] I've unloaded my emotional sense,

[00:48:50] but.

[00:48:51] Yeah.

[00:48:52] Yeah.

[00:48:52] And I just continue to question what is volume?

[00:48:54] I'm going to say is goal because if her goal was not to elevate house Harkonnen,

[00:48:58] which was originally,

[00:48:59] if she was like,

[00:49:00] if she was,

[00:49:01] you know,

[00:49:01] living in the memory of her brother,

[00:49:03] you think she would still be working toward their goal.

[00:49:05] But I guess now she's supposed to have to go.

[00:49:08] I mean,

[00:49:16] I'm going to say,

[00:49:20] I'm going to say,

[00:49:29] I'm going to say,

[00:49:31] I'm going to say,

[00:49:33] fire on Seleucus secundus back at the nightclub,

[00:49:35] several nodules,

[00:49:37] nobles,

[00:49:38] including Lord Hagel do a deal for a thinking machine.

[00:49:41] A sister truth share approaches the table and pulls Lord Hagel aside.

[00:49:46] And in response to his question of whether the rumors about Pruitt's death are true,

[00:49:50] says a mentat has calculated the odds.

[00:49:54] Mentats of immolation by a toy malfunction to be one in 2.5 million.

[00:50:00] And immolation is to die or to kill or die by fire.

[00:50:05] A number of quick scenes follow showing true sayers with their council nobles fueling the rumor about Pruitt.

[00:50:15] They plant seeds that the Richeses refused an investigation or threatened and that to launch a formal inquiry is within the power of the great houses.

[00:50:25] Worried about being accused of treason,

[00:50:27] the sisterhood plants the idea to bring house Harkonnen forward to make a claim and take the brunt of the empire emperor's wrath.

[00:50:35] So yeah,

[00:50:36] like,

[00:50:37] yeah,

[00:50:37] why is she setting up house Harkonnen to take a fall if she's trying to elevate them at the same time?

[00:50:42] Yeah.

[00:50:43] Agreed.

[00:50:43] Do you think that that little,

[00:50:45] uh,

[00:50:46] uh,

[00:50:47] thinking machine that,

[00:50:48] that just looked like an imperial probe droid to me,

[00:50:51] a little tiny white one.

[00:50:53] Yeah.

[00:50:54] Maybe a baby droid.

[00:50:55] Maybe.

[00:50:57] Yeah.

[00:50:58] I mean,

[00:50:58] I wonder if it was some sort of weapon like we saw with the thermal autonomous droid earlier.

[00:51:04] So,

[00:51:05] and you know,

[00:51:06] you're doing a deal out in open,

[00:51:08] in the open in the club.

[00:51:09] I mean,

[00:51:09] I get it right there,

[00:51:10] you know,

[00:51:11] seeing economy here,

[00:51:13] but what have you,

[00:51:14] uh,

[00:51:15] mentat watch.

[00:51:15] We get mentions,

[00:51:17] our first mention of mentats.

[00:51:18] Do you want to quickly,

[00:51:19] uh,

[00:51:19] outline the mentats?

[00:51:21] Yeah,

[00:51:21] sure.

[00:51:21] Basically mentats are,

[00:51:23] you know,

[00:51:23] because they don't use,

[00:51:25] um,

[00:51:25] artificial intelligence.

[00:51:26] They needed to train human brains to be able to handle that sort of these advanced computations and things like that.

[00:51:34] So that humanity didn't fall behind,

[00:51:36] although this is one of the reasons why they remain stagnant for millennia.

[00:51:39] And so the mentats are basically the human computers.

[00:51:42] This is a separate great school.

[00:51:45] Uh,

[00:51:45] you know,

[00:51:46] like we've talked about the sword master school.

[00:51:48] We've talked about the souk medical school,

[00:51:50] the sisterhood,

[00:51:50] obviously mentats are another school,

[00:51:52] but you can go to two schools.

[00:51:55] Like there are sisters who also become mentats.

[00:51:58] Right.

[00:51:58] And Paul famously later in the,

[00:52:01] in the books is also has been being trained to be a mentat as well.

[00:52:05] Right.

[00:52:06] So,

[00:52:06] uh,

[00:52:07] yeah,

[00:52:07] you can,

[00:52:07] you can be something else and then add mentat on top of it.

[00:52:11] So you can,

[00:52:11] you can like,

[00:52:12] if you're in dungeons and dragons or what have you,

[00:52:14] you can dual class.

[00:52:15] Right.

[00:52:17] Conditions within conditions.

[00:52:25] For one more day and has yet,

[00:52:27] he's yet to hear from the high council.

[00:52:29] Moments later,

[00:52:30] the elevator arrives with a couple of nobles and their true sayers.

[00:52:33] They're impressed to find mother superior is with house Harkonnen.

[00:52:38] With the rich easy departure from the high council,

[00:52:41] there's a vacancy that Harrow could fill.

[00:52:44] They have a condition though.

[00:52:45] He needs to support their belief that there should be an inquiry into Pruitt's

[00:52:49] death.

[00:52:50] Harrow is surprised to find that they want him to put forward the motion.

[00:52:54] Valya assures him that by doing what they want,

[00:52:57] you'll elevate this house beyond its station.

[00:53:00] The past branded us,

[00:53:02] but the future can redefine our name.

[00:53:05] She tells him.

[00:53:06] So I love that they mentioned to Harrow that the way they butter them up,

[00:53:14] your robust trade experience with whales.

[00:53:20] So I wonder about Valya if,

[00:53:25] cause later I wondered like how did,

[00:53:27] how did what's his face?

[00:53:30] Oh my gosh.

[00:53:31] Desmond.

[00:53:32] Desmond.

[00:53:33] Okay.

[00:53:33] How did he find out about what was going on?

[00:53:37] And I wondered if it would be in Valya's interest to make sure that Desmond

[00:53:43] found this out.

[00:53:44] You know,

[00:53:45] she knows she obviously doesn't want this explosion to happen.

[00:53:48] So she wants it to be stopped,

[00:53:49] but also it saves her family from being the one to take the fall.

[00:53:55] If there's this other big distraction.

[00:53:58] So I don't know.

[00:53:59] I'm wondering if we're going to learn more about her manipulations behind the

[00:54:04] scenes around this whole series of events.

[00:54:07] Right.

[00:54:08] Right.

[00:54:09] We definitely see her,

[00:54:10] um,

[00:54:11] sort of twisting both as an institutionalist and as an individual with sort of

[00:54:17] an extra grind.

[00:54:18] Right.

[00:54:18] She's just,

[00:54:19] she's like,

[00:54:19] you know,

[00:54:20] you can take back our good name,

[00:54:21] but at the same time she's doing that in service of the sisterhood.

[00:54:27] So yeah,

[00:54:27] she's got really,

[00:54:29] her,

[00:54:29] her motives are intertwined.

[00:54:31] And I think that's an interesting thing that they're,

[00:54:33] they're doing with this character at least.

[00:54:35] Well,

[00:54:35] we'll see.

[00:54:36] Yeah.

[00:54:37] And then we see,

[00:54:38] I do like the,

[00:54:40] the whole thing of the sisters whispering in the ears of their nobles.

[00:54:44] It really shows us the sisterhood operating at the sociological wide level.

[00:54:50] Yet at the same time,

[00:54:52] they're off,

[00:54:52] they're operating at an individual level.

[00:54:54] Cause like when Theodosia says to Harrow,

[00:54:58] Oh,

[00:54:58] like you're afraid of this and you're afraid of that.

[00:55:01] So they're manipulating society at this by manipulating individuals.

[00:55:08] Right.

[00:55:08] And I liked,

[00:55:09] I liked them showing us both of those levels,

[00:55:11] right?

[00:55:12] You know,

[00:55:12] they got to work at this.

[00:55:13] We got to have a big plan and we all got to be on the same message.

[00:55:16] At the same time,

[00:55:16] we got to be working our individual contacts to match that message.

[00:55:20] And that's how we change society.

[00:55:23] All right.

[00:55:24] The reckoning is here on Wallach nine.

[00:55:27] Chula gathers the acolytes into the classroom.

[00:55:30] She gives each of the students a piece of spice candy and the spice will help you open your mind's eye.

[00:55:37] So that I can guide you back along the neural pathways of your dream.

[00:55:42] She provides each of them with a sketching pad and charcoal to draw what they see with their eyes closed.

[00:55:48] They begin to frantically sketch images.

[00:55:51] Sister Avila arrives and pleads with Tula to stop this.

[00:55:55] Tula says she doesn't believe that what they experienced were dreams,

[00:55:59] but messages.

[00:56:00] Tula panics.

[00:56:01] Tula panics as she realizes she can't call the acolytes back to reality.

[00:56:04] When they finally stop,

[00:56:06] Emmeline exclaims,

[00:56:07] God is watching us,

[00:56:09] judging us.

[00:56:10] She shudders and says,

[00:56:12] the reckoning is here.

[00:56:14] What did you make of this scene?

[00:56:16] Oh,

[00:56:17] so the whole God is watching us,

[00:56:19] judging us.

[00:56:20] Of course,

[00:56:21] a lot of people were like the God emperor.

[00:56:25] Those are the later books,

[00:56:26] right?

[00:56:27] We're not going to get too much into that.

[00:56:28] I mean,

[00:56:29] we'll talk about it at the end.

[00:56:30] In the book spoiler section.

[00:56:32] Yeah.

[00:56:32] I mean,

[00:56:33] we've talked about it a lot in the book spoiler section.

[00:56:35] I don't have anything new to say on that front,

[00:56:37] but,

[00:56:37] but just that they,

[00:56:39] I,

[00:56:40] I am agreeing now that they don't have enough time to like fold all that stuff in,

[00:56:47] but it does seem at the very least,

[00:56:49] they are messing with book readers with that.

[00:56:52] Totally.

[00:56:53] With these references and the reckoning.

[00:56:54] And yeah,

[00:56:55] they use,

[00:56:56] they've been using specific words knowingly.

[00:56:59] Yeah.

[00:57:00] And either it's going to pay off or it's just a big misdirect because it's Lila's eyes in the sky or something.

[00:57:06] Or something.

[00:57:08] Yeah,

[00:57:09] I have a theory.

[00:57:10] I have another theory,

[00:57:10] an alternate theory that I,

[00:57:12] I'm,

[00:57:12] I'm considering.

[00:57:13] We'll talk about it when we can get there.

[00:57:24] Um,

[00:57:25] uh,

[00:57:26] uh,

[00:57:26] that deep Sardukar resonant to,

[00:57:29] you know,

[00:57:29] to been throat singer style voice that says dreams are a message from the deep.

[00:57:34] And so I think they're connecting again,

[00:57:37] those,

[00:57:37] those story elements here.

[00:57:39] Cause we see them,

[00:57:41] uh,

[00:57:42] drawing different shapes and figures.

[00:57:44] And then they all start to converge on the sand dunes.

[00:57:48] And then they all start drawing the circle,

[00:57:50] which turns into the well and then the sort of mouth worm.

[00:57:54] And then they all start doing the eyes.

[00:57:57] And I really did like the production detail here that the paper is blue and that they use the negative space to show the eyes.

[00:58:06] And which mirrors the,

[00:58:07] you know,

[00:58:08] the,

[00:58:08] the inky blackness of the universe with the eyes peering out.

[00:58:12] So I thought that was a nice little,

[00:58:13] uh,

[00:58:14] a fun production detail that they put together.

[00:58:17] So,

[00:58:18] all right.

[00:58:19] Uh,

[00:58:20] let's move on.

[00:58:21] Oh,

[00:58:21] can,

[00:58:21] before we move on,

[00:58:22] there's a couple of lore bits I wanted to mention one prescience,

[00:58:26] the ability to see or know the future is a big theme in the original books and,

[00:58:33] and what the Benny Gesserit are,

[00:58:35] we're out looking for with the quiz.

[00:58:38] That's hard rock.

[00:58:39] And it's the idea that for human beings,

[00:58:43] that's one of the things that in our psychology,

[00:58:47] and maybe you can speak to this a little bit,

[00:58:48] like the idea of like,

[00:58:50] of how we respond in the present is oftentimes based on concerns or fears about the future.

[00:58:56] And if we could only know the future,

[00:58:59] then we could make ourselves safe in the moment.

[00:59:01] So the saber tooth tiger doesn't leap out unexpectedly and gobble us up.

[00:59:05] And so prescience is a really big deal,

[00:59:09] uh,

[00:59:09] for the sisterhood because the sisterhood can look backwards,

[00:59:13] but they can't look forwards.

[00:59:14] And that's the area where like,

[00:59:16] what dangers lie out there?

[00:59:17] And,

[00:59:18] uh,

[00:59:19] I think that's a big driver of what the original books are working on.

[00:59:22] Well,

[00:59:22] and the problem with prescience is self-fulfilling prophecy,

[00:59:26] you know,

[00:59:26] do you make something happen because you expect it to?

[00:59:29] Right.

[00:59:30] Right.

[00:59:31] And then I noticed in this scene too,

[00:59:33] they use the word hysteria a couple of times.

[00:59:35] And then with hysteria and mass hysteria,

[00:59:38] and witches,

[00:59:40] I thought maybe,

[00:59:40] you know,

[00:59:41] that that was an interesting little comment.

[00:59:43] Dropped.

[00:59:44] So there,

[00:59:45] it was,

[00:59:46] you know,

[00:59:47] okay.

[00:59:47] There's a famous,

[00:59:48] I think it's from 1920 documentary called,

[00:59:53] uh,

[00:59:54] it's in Swedish hex.

[00:59:55] Uh,

[00:59:55] it means witches.

[00:59:56] And so this is examining the,

[01:00:01] you know,

[01:00:01] basically the way it works is they're like,

[01:00:03] here's what people believe about witches,

[01:00:06] which is crazy bullshit.

[01:00:08] Right.

[01:00:08] And here's us acting it out because this is a movie.

[01:00:11] And then at the end they're like,

[01:00:12] but we all know witchcraft isn't really real.

[01:00:15] Actually,

[01:00:15] all these women are suffering from hysteria and hysteria was a medical

[01:00:21] diagnosis that was,

[01:00:22] you know,

[01:00:23] being handed out left and right to women for a long time.

[01:00:27] And just basically saying,

[01:00:30] ah,

[01:00:30] yeah,

[01:00:31] but it was also like based on,

[01:00:33] you know,

[01:00:34] that what was it that like the organs were moving or something like the

[01:00:37] uterus was,

[01:00:38] um,

[01:00:40] I don't know if that particular one,

[01:00:41] I mean,

[01:00:41] just really pseudo science.

[01:00:44] And it was used as a way to dismiss women and mental health in general.

[01:00:50] And a lot of ways,

[01:00:51] but it did lead to the vibrator because they thought of women masturbated.

[01:00:55] That would help.

[01:00:56] Okay.

[01:00:57] All right.

[01:00:58] It's interesting.

[01:00:59] Nevermind that corsets were,

[01:01:01] you know,

[01:01:01] tight and you couldn't breathe and you need to faint again.

[01:01:04] Did you guys,

[01:01:04] uh,

[01:01:05] in you and Marilyn did a podcast,

[01:01:07] podcast on talking about,

[01:01:09] uh,

[01:01:09] witches through time and history.

[01:01:11] It's still in my queue.

[01:01:11] I haven't listened.

[01:01:12] I've been saving it.

[01:01:13] Um,

[01:01:14] but do you guys talk about the hysteria around like,

[01:01:17] say the Salem witch trials or anything like that?

[01:01:19] I mean,

[01:01:19] we,

[01:01:20] we talk about the witch trials.

[01:01:21] I don't think we particularly,

[01:01:22] we talked especially about hysteria.

[01:01:24] Yeah.

[01:01:25] We try to,

[01:01:25] well,

[01:01:26] there's a lot of topics to cover this.

[01:01:27] Yes.

[01:01:29] We do talk about the witch trials,

[01:01:31] right?

[01:01:32] I mean,

[01:01:32] you can not Salem per se,

[01:01:33] but more so the ones in Scotland.

[01:01:35] Okay.

[01:01:36] Got it.

[01:01:36] Yeah.

[01:01:37] Cool.

[01:01:37] All right.

[01:01:38] Well,

[01:01:38] let's take a little break and then when we come back,

[01:01:40] we'll continue with the scene by scene breakdown.

[01:01:55] And we are back with a little push on Salusa Secundus.

[01:02:01] Desmond receives the Empress in his quarters.

[01:02:03] She gives him a box of surveillance data files of machine dealers trading in illegal technology.

[01:02:11] Desmond tells her that the emperor didn't wish him to act boldly at this time.

[01:02:16] Desmond realized that it's Natalia that's been spreading the rumors.

[01:02:20] She confirms.

[01:02:21] She says she did it because the emperor has a chance to shore up his power.

[01:02:25] If they fear his wrath over machines,

[01:02:28] they'll fear him over anything.

[01:02:31] Sometimes Havako just needs a little push.

[01:02:34] Hmm.

[01:02:35] Um,

[01:02:36] I like her line here about the sisterhood.

[01:02:39] They choose where they want the future to go.

[01:02:43] Hmm.

[01:02:44] I thought that was a nice little thing because it's what they,

[01:02:46] they say,

[01:02:46] like we want to get here.

[01:02:48] So what do we need strategically?

[01:02:49] Like that's part of,

[01:02:51] if you do,

[01:02:52] if you're ever involved in strategic planning,

[01:02:53] right?

[01:02:54] You're like,

[01:02:54] what's the vision?

[01:02:55] Where are we now?

[01:02:56] And then how do we get there?

[01:02:58] And,

[01:02:59] uh,

[01:02:59] I,

[01:02:59] I do like that.

[01:03:00] Uh,

[01:03:00] they're painting the sisterhood is that people who can do that kind of stuff.

[01:03:04] Yeah.

[01:03:06] Um,

[01:03:06] yeah.

[01:03:07] The fact that Natalia is the one who leaked the murder rumor,

[01:03:10] she says it was to drum up fear of the emperor.

[01:03:13] Um,

[01:03:13] but I,

[01:03:14] I just don't,

[01:03:15] I'm not sure if maybe they're telling us that Natalia is not a great mastermind

[01:03:20] because I just don't see how that could possibly not backfire.

[01:03:23] Hmm.

[01:03:24] And just to throw a rumor out there to stir things up without a plan to connect it.

[01:03:28] Right.

[01:03:28] Yeah.

[01:03:29] Like she should have become a sister,

[01:03:31] but she's too prejudice against them.

[01:03:34] All right.

[01:03:35] A big push.

[01:03:36] Uh,

[01:03:36] Desmond doesn't waste any time.

[01:03:38] He dismount dispatches a crew to find the criminals selling the thinking machine technology

[01:03:44] in the shadows and stirring rebellion.

[01:03:46] You show them that our emperor is in no giving mood.

[01:03:50] Kind of reminds me of Damon and the gold cloaks a little.

[01:03:53] Yeah.

[01:03:54] Well,

[01:03:54] I mean,

[01:03:54] I think this is again where you lean too much on oppression and you're just begging

[01:04:00] for rebellion.

[01:04:01] Right.

[01:04:02] Right.

[01:04:02] Right.

[01:04:02] As we've seen in,

[01:04:04] in modern,

[01:04:04] uh,

[01:04:05] in modern,

[01:04:06] uh,

[01:04:06] circumstances just recently.

[01:04:08] Uh,

[01:04:09] and again,

[01:04:09] I think this is more,

[01:04:10] just more set up for Desmond establishing a force,

[01:04:15] which will then become the Sardaukar.

[01:04:17] Hmm.

[01:04:19] Burning the house down.

[01:04:20] Kiryan and Horace get high at the club.

[01:04:23] When Nunez shows up,

[01:04:24] Kiryan pulls Ynez aside to keep her away from Horace.

[01:04:27] And then they argue about motives and power.

[01:04:30] They kiss,

[01:04:31] but Kiryan breaks it off under the watchful gaze of Michaela.

[01:04:35] Righteous,

[01:04:36] but not pure.

[01:04:38] Uh,

[01:04:40] I think is,

[01:04:42] um,

[01:04:43] I think it's an interesting point in the,

[01:04:45] in a commentary about politics,

[01:04:47] like,

[01:04:48] and it counterbalances the Butlerian attitudes where there has to be a,

[01:04:54] a piety and a purity.

[01:04:56] And they've definitely set that up,

[01:04:57] you know,

[01:04:58] in terms of,

[01:04:59] uh,

[01:05:00] these,

[01:05:00] this faithful cohort within the sisterhood,

[01:05:03] uh,

[01:05:04] versus,

[01:05:05] uh,

[01:05:06] uh,

[01:05:07] like say with,

[01:05:08] with Horace and saying,

[01:05:09] well,

[01:05:09] Hey,

[01:05:09] the spices got to flow,

[01:05:11] right?

[01:05:11] Like we,

[01:05:11] we all want to be able to partake in this.

[01:05:14] So,

[01:05:15] uh,

[01:05:16] what do you think about Ynez here?

[01:05:18] I mean,

[01:05:19] I am wondering if she's naive or what,

[01:05:22] because she says,

[01:05:22] um,

[01:05:23] Oh my,

[01:05:24] she's really insistent.

[01:05:25] Oh,

[01:05:25] my father's a good man.

[01:05:26] But then based on what does she only think that because it's her father and,

[01:05:31] you know,

[01:05:31] she wants to think the best of him or she have a reason to think that.

[01:05:34] And if she does think that,

[01:05:36] then why later does she speak publicly out against him?

[01:05:40] Uh,

[01:05:41] I guess because he tells her she can't go to the school.

[01:05:43] Right.

[01:05:44] Right.

[01:05:44] But yeah,

[01:05:45] I'm just,

[01:05:46] she's,

[01:05:47] she is,

[01:05:47] you know,

[01:05:47] you pointed out earlier,

[01:05:49] he calls his kids kids and they really do act like children.

[01:05:54] Yeah,

[01:05:54] exactly.

[01:05:55] Not the,

[01:05:56] uh,

[01:05:56] the,

[01:05:56] the future ruler of the empire here.

[01:05:58] I mean,

[01:05:59] all those sheltered,

[01:06:00] um,

[01:06:01] you know,

[01:06:01] show sheltered noble kids.

[01:06:02] That's what's going to happen.

[01:06:04] Right.

[01:06:05] And I,

[01:06:05] I think this rebellion to this,

[01:06:09] although they were kidnapped,

[01:06:09] sorry.

[01:06:10] Anyway.

[01:06:10] Yeah.

[01:06:11] They,

[01:06:11] which is in,

[01:06:12] yeah,

[01:06:13] goes into their relationships and,

[01:06:14] and,

[01:06:15] and,

[01:06:15] uh,

[01:06:15] and how she,

[01:06:16] her attitudes may be towards her parents.

[01:06:19] Uh,

[01:06:19] I was thinking a bit in this too,

[01:06:21] like you've got Kyrian and Horace here and they're like,

[01:06:23] yeah,

[01:06:23] we're going to overthrow.

[01:06:25] It's going to be great.

[01:06:26] I'm like,

[01:06:27] bro,

[01:06:27] have you not been paying attention?

[01:06:28] Like bringing a universe together after a rebellion is a really messy thing.

[01:06:35] Like in,

[01:06:36] in the skills that you need to fight to overthrow a power structure are not the same set of skills you need to govern afterwards.

[01:06:43] But did,

[01:06:44] do they want to govern afterwards or that?

[01:06:46] Do they just think that they are going to grant everybody freedom?

[01:06:49] Quote,

[01:06:49] that's what I'm saying.

[01:06:50] Right.

[01:06:51] Yeah.

[01:06:51] You can't,

[01:06:52] that does it.

[01:06:52] That's a very naive,

[01:06:54] uh,

[01:06:54] a naive way of,

[01:06:56] of thinking about it.

[01:06:57] So,

[01:06:58] by the way,

[01:06:58] who is,

[01:06:59] do we know who Kyrian's father is?

[01:07:02] Yes.

[01:07:02] Because he said,

[01:07:03] Kyrian's father survived an atrocity.

[01:07:05] And so immediately went Albert,

[01:07:07] who's the kid,

[01:07:08] the kid who ran away from the Atreides massacre,

[01:07:11] the Tula committed.

[01:07:12] And so I thought that,

[01:07:14] and I thought I was like all clever about it.

[01:07:16] And I said,

[01:07:17] so in the discord,

[01:07:18] and then someone pointed out that they said it on the official podcast and I listened and they did.

[01:07:23] So it's going to work.

[01:07:23] Okay.

[01:07:24] Thanks official podcast.

[01:07:26] Yeah.

[01:07:27] All right.

[01:07:29] Uh,

[01:07:30] so we get another drop of Vorian Atreides and how he refused the throne.

[01:07:35] Do you've got a little lore nugget here for us on that?

[01:07:37] Yeah.

[01:07:37] So this comes from the sisterhood of Dune book.

[01:07:41] And,

[01:07:41] um,

[01:07:42] indeed.

[01:07:43] So they,

[01:07:44] he was offered the throne by the Seleucins who were Salvador Corino,

[01:07:50] the uncle of Javico was already sitting on the throne at the time.

[01:07:53] And Vorian's like,

[01:07:54] no,

[01:07:54] no,

[01:07:55] no,

[01:07:55] I'm not going to like,

[01:07:56] you know,

[01:07:57] overthrow them and take the throne.

[01:07:58] But Salvador and his,

[01:08:00] and his brother,

[01:08:01] uh,

[01:08:01] Roderick,

[01:08:02] who was,

[01:08:02] uh,

[01:08:02] Javico's father,

[01:08:03] they were still nervous about it.

[01:08:06] So they're like,

[01:08:07] okay,

[01:08:07] well,

[01:08:08] we need you to just like distance yourself from the empire.

[01:08:11] So if you can just go into exile for a while,

[01:08:15] we will protect Keplar,

[01:08:18] which is the planet that they seem to have erased in this version of the story,

[01:08:21] but it is a planet where Vorian's second and favorite part of the family was from.

[01:08:27] Um,

[01:08:28] and so,

[01:08:29] okay.

[01:08:30] He's like,

[01:08:30] I'll let you guard.

[01:08:32] Um,

[01:08:33] I'll let you guard Keplar,

[01:08:34] which obviously didn't necessarily go well.

[01:08:37] And he went to Arrakis and Griffin,

[01:08:41] Vaya's brother followed him to Arrakis.

[01:08:44] Okay.

[01:08:45] Dot,

[01:08:45] dot,

[01:08:45] dot.

[01:08:46] And I think I'm not supposed to say the rest,

[01:08:48] but I've talked about it in previous episodes,

[01:08:50] but cut to Griffin is dead.

[01:08:53] Right.

[01:08:55] Okay.

[01:08:56] So yeah,

[01:08:56] a lot of winding history between these families and,

[01:08:59] and then the power structures of this,

[01:09:01] this universe.

[01:09:03] Last resort.

[01:09:04] Uh,

[01:09:05] Vaya is questioned by Theodosa about Griffin,

[01:09:08] but Vaya demures again,

[01:09:10] this more set up for later,

[01:09:12] right?

[01:09:12] Theodosa also wants to know why Vaya brought her and Vaya softly tells her,

[01:09:18] you know why we learned that Theodosa has a condition,

[01:09:22] I had one condition when she joined the order.

[01:09:25] I would not do that again.

[01:09:28] So some strained intimacy,

[01:09:29] see here between these two and they're ramping the tension,

[01:09:33] right?

[01:09:34] For the big reveal at the end of this episode.

[01:09:37] Uh,

[01:09:38] and I guess this is the condition that she was referring to in episode two.

[01:09:42] Like I,

[01:09:42] I was like,

[01:09:43] I don't know.

[01:09:43] Is she pregnant?

[01:09:44] But I guess,

[01:09:44] no,

[01:09:45] she didn't mean like physical.

[01:09:47] Well,

[01:09:47] she didn't mean physical condition,

[01:09:48] but she also means like I gave a rule.

[01:09:52] Right.

[01:09:53] And I think it's interesting that they,

[01:09:56] there's a distinction between talent and condition where,

[01:10:00] uh,

[01:10:01] Theodosa is referring to it as a condition where,

[01:10:03] where Vaya is calling it a talent.

[01:10:06] Well,

[01:10:06] but I think she said it was a condition of like,

[01:10:09] I will join your order on one condition.

[01:10:11] Like there is that.

[01:10:12] Yeah.

[01:10:12] So that's weird because they use the word condition twice because when,

[01:10:15] before they leave Wallach nine,

[01:10:17] she says,

[01:10:18] you you're aware of my condition.

[01:10:19] Right.

[01:10:19] But I thought that that meant that.

[01:10:21] Oh,

[01:10:21] you're right.

[01:10:23] Okay.

[01:10:23] It does work both ways.

[01:10:24] It does work both ways.

[01:10:25] A little ambiguity here.

[01:10:27] So I feel there's,

[01:10:29] there's a couple of scenes in here in this episode where there's a little

[01:10:32] clunky writing.

[01:10:33] And this is one of those places again,

[01:10:37] where,

[01:10:37] where Valia sort of repeats the Theodosa,

[01:10:39] what we already know about the threat that they face.

[01:10:41] So they,

[01:10:42] they,

[01:10:42] they over,

[01:10:43] I get that they need to appeal to,

[01:10:47] uh,

[01:10:49] non Dune fans and Dune fans alike.

[01:10:51] And I feel sometimes they tip a little bit over to the side of too much

[01:10:55] exposition where I think they could trust the audience a little bit more,

[01:10:59] at least in the basic stuff.

[01:11:00] Like,

[01:11:01] yeah,

[01:11:01] it does feel like they dumb things down a lot.

[01:11:03] Yeah.

[01:11:04] Yeah.

[01:11:04] It's,

[01:11:04] it's a weird balance that they stroke strike sometime.

[01:11:07] Should we talk about face dancers now or later?

[01:11:11] Um,

[01:11:12] I guess we can talk about it later when we talk about what we physically see.

[01:11:16] She's definitely a face dancer.

[01:11:18] Yeah.

[01:11:19] All right.

[01:11:19] Let's do that.

[01:11:20] A sign of what's to come on Wallach nine,

[01:11:22] Tula and Avila try to make sense of the alkalite sketches.

[01:11:25] Tula realizes there was a point where they started to reject her guidance.

[01:11:29] She says there is one image that they all drew the two eyes in the darkness.

[01:11:33] No one could see beyond this moment.

[01:11:36] And I didn't awaken them.

[01:11:38] The fear did whatever this is.

[01:11:40] It calls forth a terror so crippling that the mind screams to save itself.

[01:11:44] It could be that the nightmare is a sign of what's to come.

[01:11:48] Avila wants to warn everyone,

[01:11:50] but Tula cautions that they should keep it a secret to avoiding creating hysteria.

[01:11:56] Is this a setup for the litany against fear?

[01:11:59] Sure.

[01:11:59] Maybe Marilyn had prescience in her,

[01:12:02] uh,

[01:12:03] in her feedback.

[01:12:03] Was that last week?

[01:12:04] I think so.

[01:12:05] Yeah.

[01:12:05] Yeah.

[01:12:06] Yeah.

[01:12:07] It seems like there,

[01:12:08] this is one of those hints that I didn't pick up on,

[01:12:11] but I,

[01:12:11] it feels like they are starting to weave that into the story.

[01:12:16] Right.

[01:12:16] This,

[01:12:17] I mean,

[01:12:17] it should be on what I expected going into this is that this is going to be the story of how the sisterhood became the Bene Gesserit.

[01:12:23] Exactly.

[01:12:24] Yeah.

[01:12:25] Part of it.

[01:12:25] Totally online with that.

[01:12:27] And again,

[01:12:27] this is where I'm like wondering,

[01:12:29] like,

[01:12:29] how are they using Avila?

[01:12:31] Is it,

[01:12:31] is Avila as a character have her own agency and motivation,

[01:12:35] or do they just keep using her as a foil against Tula?

[01:12:38] So whatever Tula is doing,

[01:12:40] they foil Avila against her.

[01:12:43] I mean,

[01:12:43] I read Avila as basically a puppet of Valya.

[01:12:47] Hmm.

[01:12:47] Hmm.

[01:12:48] And then maybe without direct communication with real time.

[01:12:52] Communicating with Valya.

[01:12:54] Right.

[01:12:54] But like some,

[01:12:55] you know,

[01:12:55] there's a delay in the lag.

[01:12:56] So maybe she's like,

[01:12:57] Oh,

[01:12:57] like,

[01:12:58] I don't know what to do here.

[01:12:58] Well,

[01:12:58] I don't know what to do.

[01:12:59] I just assume that she was doing whatever Valya said,

[01:13:03] but yeah,

[01:13:04] and we see Valya.

[01:13:05] Valya will undermine someone just to support them at the same time,

[01:13:08] just to put things in check.

[01:13:10] It's true.

[01:13:11] That is true.

[01:13:13] Be brave.

[01:13:14] Inez tries to convince Constantine to join her at the high council meeting the next day.

[01:13:19] He sees it as betraying their father in public.

[01:13:22] She reminds him of when they were kidnapped.

[01:13:24] He says he failed.

[01:13:26] He didn't save her.

[01:13:27] The sisterhood did,

[01:13:29] but you stayed with me and that saved me just as much as they did.

[01:13:33] Be brave with me now.

[01:13:34] Inez pleads.

[01:13:36] I kind of feel like this idea of spouting the truth at the high council is very childish.

[01:13:42] You know,

[01:13:43] there are other people who are going to,

[01:13:48] just throwing a truth bomb into the middle of a conversation at a big meeting doesn't always go the way that you want it to go.

[01:13:56] And I feel that is a little bit childlike.

[01:13:58] So I don't,

[01:13:58] I don't think that Haviko's comment was necessarily unwarranted.

[01:14:03] No,

[01:14:04] I said it's on the money.

[01:14:05] They are children.

[01:14:06] Yeah.

[01:14:07] At least if she went to the sisterhood,

[01:14:09] she would grow TF up.

[01:14:13] And I think this is where I,

[01:14:15] I started to realize that the drug people are using is spice based because they,

[01:14:19] there was a mention here as well.

[01:14:21] Do you see,

[01:14:22] he puts down his basalette there.

[01:14:24] Yeah.

[01:14:24] Yeah.

[01:14:25] Yeah.

[01:14:25] They don't show him playing it.

[01:14:26] He,

[01:14:26] but he,

[01:14:27] he puts it down.

[01:14:27] So,

[01:14:28] uh,

[01:14:29] they mentioned the word Bashar.

[01:14:32] There is only one Bashar and that is miles tag,

[01:14:34] but that's a separate issue.

[01:14:35] Um,

[01:14:36] Bashar is a title.

[01:14:37] It's like saying general or,

[01:14:39] uh,

[01:14:39] admiral or,

[01:14:40] uh,

[01:14:41] field marshal or something like that.

[01:14:43] It's a,

[01:14:43] it's a,

[01:14:44] um,

[01:14:45] uh,

[01:14:46] uh,

[01:14:47] title of rank,

[01:14:47] uh,

[01:14:48] for somebody.

[01:14:48] So she says,

[01:14:50] you know,

[01:14:50] says,

[01:14:51] you know,

[01:14:51] his Bashar's are,

[01:14:52] uh,

[01:14:52] his Bashar is a monster and she's referring to,

[01:14:54] I guess Desmond.

[01:14:56] And so I guess Desmond has been given a rank of Bashar.

[01:14:58] So that's a pretty high,

[01:15:00] high status actually to get that promotion.

[01:15:03] I mean,

[01:15:04] he's standing next to the emperor all the time now.

[01:15:07] So yeah,

[01:15:08] exactly.

[01:15:08] Exactly.

[01:15:09] And I,

[01:15:10] I can't remember the origins of Bashar,

[01:15:12] but it is a,

[01:15:12] it's a real word.

[01:15:14] It's a real,

[01:15:15] that,

[01:15:15] uh,

[01:15:16] Frank Herbert pulled up,

[01:15:17] uh,

[01:15:18] from his,

[01:15:19] his research and study.

[01:15:20] Uh,

[01:15:21] I believe it's in the,

[01:15:22] in the,

[01:15:23] um,

[01:15:24] show guide in the glossary.

[01:15:25] I believe there's a Bashar entry in there.

[01:15:28] All right.

[01:15:29] Our big scene,

[01:15:31] Leviathan,

[01:15:32] uh,

[01:15:33] Emperor Havako.

[01:15:34] This is,

[01:15:34] I'm going to,

[01:15:34] I got a long description here,

[01:15:36] so I'm going to try to speed run it.

[01:15:37] Emperor Havako and the emperor's pair for the high council meeting.

[01:15:41] Constantine waits outside and Ynez steals herself for what's to come.

[01:15:45] The nobles and the truth sayers,

[01:15:47] enter,

[01:15:48] including Valia and Harrow.

[01:15:50] Constantine loses his nerve and ducks out of the meeting at the last moment.

[01:15:54] Desmond enters and stands at the emperor's side.

[01:15:59] Kyrian leaves the room.

[01:16:01] Ynez searches the corridors for Constantine and Valia pulls a knife from pockets.

[01:16:07] Harrow comes to the front to begin his challenge.

[01:16:10] And we're going to talk about Canly in a moment,

[01:16:12] but he mentions Canly.

[01:16:14] Ynez enters the room and accuses Desmond of murdering Pruitt.

[01:16:19] Kyrian puts back the little grate and the speaker calls for order.

[01:16:24] And Desmond replies,

[01:16:25] Do you want order?

[01:16:27] He brings in the prisoners and we see Horus,

[01:16:30] the Ixian Duri,

[01:16:31] and a man seen earlier with Lord Hagel in,

[01:16:34] in the thinking machine nightclub.

[01:16:37] Desmond addresses the chamber,

[01:16:39] telling them of the many dangerous creatures on Arrakis.

[01:16:42] He claims there's a Leviathan that comes,

[01:16:45] causing soldiers to rejoice as it scatters the other predators in fear.

[01:16:51] He admits that what the princess said was true,

[01:16:54] but it wasn't murder because the boy used forbidden machine technology.

[01:16:58] It was an execution.

[01:17:00] Did he file the paperwork?

[01:17:01] That's my question.

[01:17:02] Good point.

[01:17:04] Much like how this whole council would have been executed today,

[01:17:07] had the rebels detonated this thinking machine as they planned on doing.

[01:17:12] He holds up the little drone before crushing it under his boot.

[01:17:16] Havako nods and Lord Hagel and the prisoners begin to burn from the inside.

[01:17:21] The crowd is shocked.

[01:17:23] Desmond reaches for his temples.

[01:17:25] We hear a high-pitched ringing.

[01:17:28] And then the camera zooms into his eye and the scene switches to Arrakis.

[01:17:34] An enormous cloud of dust grows and moves forward.

[01:17:37] The camera glances from side to side in imitation of a person looking at the thumpers and the dead bodies next to a spice harvester.

[01:17:48] The dust cloud turns into the mouth of a giant sandworm, which engulfs the screen into darkness.

[01:17:54] The growling voice is heard again and the two blue lights shine and combine into one that then become the iris of Desmond's eye.

[01:18:05] Desmond collapses in pain, blood seeping out of his back through his jacket.

[01:18:10] He gets up and leans on the ledge in front of Vivalia, leaving a bloodstain.

[01:18:14] He says nothing to her and leaves the chamber.

[01:18:19] Right.

[01:18:20] Big scene here.

[01:18:21] Let's deal with a couple of the small things.

[01:18:23] Constantine chickening out at the last minute there.

[01:18:26] Yeah.

[01:18:27] I mean, I know a lot of people look at the story and say, well, it must end with Constantine on the throne.

[01:18:34] But he's really not proven himself at this point.

[01:18:37] I would hope it would be Inez at best.

[01:18:39] But it is noticeable that Inez, who's like, my father's a good man, and then she turns on him as soon as she doesn't get what she wants.

[01:18:47] So she's a spoiled princess too.

[01:18:50] I mean, she's not wrong, but still.

[01:18:53] Yeah.

[01:18:54] Yeah.

[01:18:55] Was Valiya going to use her knife to throw it at something?

[01:18:58] Because that's sort of what I had implied visually when she killed the insect.

[01:19:02] Yeah.

[01:19:03] I mean, maybe the whole killing the insect scene was just about her saying, like, don't worry.

[01:19:09] Even if you think I don't notice a threat, I see it out of the corner of my eye and I'm ready to take it out.

[01:19:15] And she's really deadly incompetent, right?

[01:19:18] She dumped that thing pretty good.

[01:19:20] And we definitely have a scene later of her using the knife from the trailer.

[01:19:25] So we've got some scenes to come yet of her being deadly.

[01:19:28] Yeah.

[01:19:29] I love how she says, give yourself time to understand your enemy's weaknesses.

[01:19:34] So basically, I guess she's saying, like, I know that bug's over there and I've been watching it crawl up the wall and I just have to note its pace and pattern and when it pauses so that I can thunk.

[01:19:47] Which is a very Bene Gesserit thing to do, isn't it?

[01:19:50] Right.

[01:19:50] To really study closely what it is so that then when you act against it, you use the most efficient amount of energy and effort to alter or to kill or to whatever.

[01:20:03] Right.

[01:20:03] I thought that in this scene, you know, I've complained a little bit about the exposition versus, you know, good storytelling.

[01:20:13] I thought that this was the good, one good use of exposition with Harrow starting to explain canly.

[01:20:20] And like that felt very on point for his character.

[01:20:27] Like he's going to, he's awkward in front of all these people and he's over explaining stuff.

[01:20:31] And what does the council chamber guy say to him?

[01:20:38] He says something like.

[01:20:38] Your house knows the forms better than anyone.

[01:20:42] That was pretty funny.

[01:20:43] Yeah, and I found that much better than, you know, I really still dislike Dorothea getting on Valia's case about being a Harkonnen.

[01:20:52] That still makes zero sense.

[01:20:54] But in this case, now this makes sense.

[01:20:56] Yeah.

[01:20:58] So quick lore note on canly.

[01:21:01] Among the noble houses and the way that conflict is resolved, there is a normalized and institutionalized form of conflict called canly.

[01:21:13] You can use poison.

[01:21:15] You can use assassins.

[01:21:16] You can use all these nefarious and, you know, technologies and techniques to affect your subterfuge.

[01:21:26] But if you're going to normalize this, because otherwise it would just be chaos across the Imperium.

[01:21:32] The Imperium basically kind of came together and said, right, we've got to institutionalize this.

[01:21:37] So not on like, what's the, I guess it's in the John Wick stories.

[01:21:41] There's actually like a organization that organizes like when you can assassinate somebody or not, you have to like file the paperwork.

[01:21:48] You, in this same thing.

[01:21:50] That's the government.

[01:21:52] Yes, exactly.

[01:21:52] And so if you're like, okay, Alicia and I, we've got beef.

[01:21:55] I'm going to file papers of canly, which means that she knows that I know that she knows that I'm going to try to, you know, do something.

[01:22:03] So it's a, it's a way of containing the chaos.

[01:22:07] Right.

[01:22:09] Or it's like dueling.

[01:22:10] Like if we had institute, you know, dueling was institutionalized and then suppressed until it finally died out.

[01:22:17] But there was a whole form, like I accuse you, sir, and I'll meet you at dawn and we have our seconds and we do all this stuff.

[01:22:23] It was normalized in a way.

[01:22:24] Right.

[01:22:25] And yeah, and there had, but there had to be reason, obviously.

[01:22:28] So it'd be like, I file canly because you killed my brother.

[01:22:33] And then it's like, well, yeah, okay, that's fair.

[01:22:36] Right.

[01:22:37] Yeah.

[01:22:37] And we, you could, you could accuse me of something and I could say, that's not fair.

[01:22:40] Then your canly petition could be denied.

[01:22:42] And then say, if you did do something, then the other houses would gang up against you because you used canly improperly.

[01:22:52] Right.

[01:22:52] You didn't have a paperwork.

[01:22:55] So last little lore thing.

[01:22:57] Is it Padishah or Padishah?

[01:23:00] No, Padishah.

[01:23:02] It's the Shah of Shahs.

[01:23:04] It comes from Persian language in our real world.

[01:23:07] Exactly.

[01:23:12] I got David Lynch in my head on that one as well.

[01:23:15] Do they say Padishah in the Lynch movie?

[01:23:17] No, they say Padishah.

[01:23:18] Yeah, Padishah.

[01:23:18] Okay.

[01:23:19] No, it's Padishah.

[01:23:20] Yeah.

[01:23:20] The golden lion throne.

[01:23:21] So yeah, it's, it's, yeah, like you said, it's the Shah of Shah.

[01:23:24] Yeah.

[01:23:25] It's the emperor of emperors.

[01:23:26] Emperor of emperors.

[01:23:27] And it's very much, again, Frank Herbert doing very, very deep linguistic study before he started to write.

[01:23:35] All without the internet, mind you, back in the day.

[01:23:38] So it took him a long time to really come up with a lot of this stuff.

[01:23:43] So very well crafted.

[01:23:44] Okay.

[01:23:44] Let's talk a little bit about heart.

[01:23:47] Interesting.

[01:23:47] He uses the word antidote when in referring to the worm.

[01:23:52] I thought that was a kind of a weird word chain, word use.

[01:23:55] And I don't know if that means something or not.

[01:23:57] Hmm.

[01:23:59] Yeah.

[01:23:59] Antidote against what?

[01:24:01] Yeah.

[01:24:02] Um, the, some of the predators that are listed are the desert owl, scorpions, wandering spiders and wasps.

[01:24:09] And I thought it was a fun little call back to Stilgar prepping Paul in the, the first Villeneuve movie.

[01:24:16] When he's like, oh, you know, you got to walk across the desert at night, like watch out for the spiders, watch out for the djinn and all of that stuff.

[01:24:22] So, uh, but I don't know, I don't have a lot of ecological knowledge of, of all the different species on Dune.

[01:24:29] And that's in the original books are very much about the appendix.

[01:24:35] I think so.

[01:24:35] And the encyclopedia, which I now have a, although the encyclopedia is not canon.

[01:24:40] So just, that's true.

[01:24:42] It's true.

[01:24:43] Uh, I'm sorry to our friend said, uh, two minute podcast, uh, heart slowly starts to whistle or sort of breathe out when he starts to activate his magic power.

[01:24:56] I know it's not magic.

[01:24:57] It's gotta be technology, right?

[01:24:58] Um, so the subtitles actually in this, this time they called attention to that sound effect that you keep mentioning.

[01:25:05] They actually said like what it was a high droning sound.

[01:25:08] Oh, okay.

[01:25:09] In the closed captions.

[01:25:11] Got it.

[01:25:11] Well, that's good.

[01:25:12] And then, so then there's a question of how does he kill multiple targets, right?

[01:25:15] Cause up until now, Kasha, did he affect her somehow?

[01:25:19] And then there was a delay cause she had to go away.

[01:25:22] Like when it happened, we don't know, but like, obviously there was a distance and time thing.

[01:25:25] And then when he does it to Richazy, it's one target.

[01:25:29] And then here there are multiple targets.

[01:25:32] There's what four people that he, uh, affects, uh, in this.

[01:25:38] I, I do have to say that the, the, uh, special effects, uh, were really good with the burning, the way that they cut scenes, the way that they use, you know, CGI and practical effects.

[01:25:51] Man, this show is on point when it comes to, uh, setting up.

[01:25:55] Yeah.

[01:25:55] For a lot of this stuff.

[01:25:57] I'm really impressed.

[01:25:58] I really believe like watching Horace, like I was like kind of genuinely freaked out.

[01:26:03] I was like, wow, that's, that's really bad.

[01:26:05] Or when Dury's teeth start to melt cause he's got metal teeth, like gold teeth, like it actually starts to melt.

[01:26:12] Yeah.

[01:26:13] Yeah.

[01:26:13] So, um, I think it's interesting that Desmond, he's endearing himself as a martyr to Haviko because I, we talked about him touching that page, page from Kasha's book with reverence.

[01:26:26] And now at the end, he's touching Desmond's shoulder in the same way.

[01:26:30] And it's like, you have a home here.

[01:26:31] Um, so Desmond, whether, I mean, whether this is physically affecting him, which I guess it seems to be, he also realizes that he is, uh, that he's, yeah, that he's winning over Haviko by having actual physical pain and helping him like, I'm such a martyr.

[01:26:53] Right.

[01:26:54] Right.

[01:26:54] There was this thing when the, with the vision of Desmond where they looked, it looks as though the blue eyes and the sky might belong to Desmond, the way they zoomed in and Desmond's brain kind of drew the blue eyes.

[01:27:06] But I think it's actually saying that this is means it's someone who's in his head.

[01:27:11] So I think it means the same person is in his head who is in on like the sisterhood acolytes.

[01:27:17] Things like that.

[01:27:18] So there are four lights.

[01:27:21] Sorry.

[01:27:22] I had a little Star Trek reference there.

[01:27:24] Uh, but yeah, I don't wonder, this is my alternate theory that I referenced earlier.

[01:27:29] Are these a person's eyes or are these like lights in a room or, or some other mechanical thing that are, you know, when you are coming to focus or you really look closer, you get, or do they blend or separate?

[01:27:47] So I'm, they're definitely playing games with, uh, with what's going on here.

[01:27:53] But this, I think Nancy, I didn't really pick this up until Nancy wrote her, uh, to scene description here.

[01:28:00] I didn't realize that when we see the scene of the desert and the camera panning from left to right, that's Desmond's point of view.

[01:28:10] That's the last thing that he remembers.

[01:28:13] Hmm.

[01:28:15] Hmm.

[01:28:15] And so he's looking down, we see the spice harvester, we see the thumper on the right and some bodies.

[01:28:20] We look over, we see a second thumper on the left, and then we look up and we see the, the, the worm coming at us.

[01:28:27] And they showed us that scene very early on.

[01:28:30] I believe it was an episode one where Havico is looking at the surveillance tapes of when the worm, you know, when Desmond, uh, is consumed by the worm.

[01:28:39] So, and who left that tape?

[01:28:41] Was that Desmond or somebody else?

[01:28:44] Um, but that is definitely in my, I'm reading this as Desmond's last memory.

[01:28:49] And if this is his last memory, then we are very much on the track of the Gola theory as to who Desmond Hart is.

[01:29:00] Is he some sort of biological recreation clone type creature, uh, that doesn't have memories beyond a certain point?

[01:29:11] So I'm, I'm kind of, I'm definitely in the theory of, of the face dancing and the Gola stuff.

[01:29:17] And we'll talk about that more.

[01:29:18] I mean, we, we've seen the face dancer for sure.

[01:29:21] So where there's a face dancer, there's, it's good reason to believe there might be a Gola.

[01:29:27] And well, we'll talk about what in the face dancer saying too, because there's something going on between the burning and the face dancing.

[01:29:33] I think that is, uh, also maybe a potential clue.

[01:29:37] All right.

[01:29:39] Uh, Haro and Valia return to the apartment.

[01:29:42] Uncle Evgeny derides Haro for being taken by Valia.

[01:29:46] Uh, Theodosa asks what happens in Valia.

[01:29:48] Valia pulls a napkin with Desmond's bloodstain.

[01:29:51] She asks Theodosa to send it to Tula immediately for, uh, tracing in the breeding index.

[01:29:56] And we'll know exactly who he is and where he came from.

[01:29:59] We kind of already know.

[01:30:02] Do we though?

[01:30:03] Do we?

[01:30:03] This for me was the most exciting thing to happen this episode.

[01:30:06] I'm like, yes, use that breeding index for good.

[01:30:08] Tell me, just give me an answer.

[01:30:10] Who is this guy?

[01:30:12] Because he, the, the theory that he could be Vorian is still on the table.

[01:30:16] Okay.

[01:30:17] All right.

[01:30:17] That's interesting.

[01:30:18] Because he's lost his identity at some point.

[01:30:21] And, you know, there's, if, if he is a Gola, you know, there's going to be some kind of break or some kind of change or something.

[01:30:28] Like, will he show up in the breeding index or not?

[01:30:30] I think it's because if you're going to make a clone, you need to have original material, right?

[01:30:36] So, uh, it's interesting.

[01:30:38] We'll see.

[01:30:39] All right.

[01:30:40] Uh, Havako enters Desmond's quarters and finds him on the floor.

[01:30:45] His back is covered in welts and, uh, bleeding.

[01:30:48] Havako says it can't, this can't happen again.

[01:30:52] Meaning the wounds on Desmond's back.

[01:30:54] And Desmond says, it is the pain that led me to you.

[01:30:57] Uh, then here you shall stay.

[01:31:00] It says the emperor in a comforting response and touches him on the shoulder.

[01:31:05] Um, do we talk more about Golas now or do we save that a little bit for the mechanics of Golas and what they need to do?

[01:31:14] I'm going to save it for the book part.

[01:31:16] Uh, cause it's a little plot spoilery.

[01:31:19] Uh, but I'll just highlight the word pain.

[01:31:22] I think that's an important clue into what's going on.

[01:31:25] And I think, as you said, clearly Havako is smit by, uh,

[01:31:31] uh, by Desmond at this point, right?

[01:31:34] It's very empathetic to him.

[01:31:36] All right.

[01:31:37] Back on walk nine faith.

[01:31:39] Sister Emmeline and several other acolytes gather under a cone of silence.

[01:31:44] She opens the orange Catholic Bible and explains that while mother Dorothea died from grief,

[01:31:49] her beliefs did not die with her.

[01:31:51] It's not clear whether she uses the word grief because she believes Tula or she knows the truth,

[01:31:56] but wants to keep it sealed for some other reason.

[01:31:59] She reads from the Bible.

[01:32:01] There are no truths concealed that will not be disclosed or lies hidden that won't known.

[01:32:08] Um, I'm just scanning the long description here to save time.

[01:32:12] Um, then Tula pleads with Lila to wake up.

[01:32:17] I believe you're the key to this reckoning.

[01:32:19] You must be the one twice born.

[01:32:22] Emmeline, uh, enters the room down to where Tula is.

[01:32:27] You lied to us.

[01:32:28] You murdered Dorothea.

[01:32:29] You murdered Ori.

[01:32:31] Your sins have brought reckoning, brought the reckoning.

[01:32:34] And then the image turns into the sound of a thumper, uh, sand falling.

[01:32:39] Tula is still listening to Emmeline, who says her lies must be cleansed.

[01:32:45] I'm going to speak truth to the whole Imperium.

[01:32:47] Again, people just spouting the truth off.

[01:32:49] Speaking truth to power.

[01:32:50] That's right.

[01:32:51] And, uh, Emmeline turns to leave, but Tula follows her and then slits her throat.

[01:32:56] And then we get a number of images, uh, passing by and Dorothea lying in her own blood.

[01:33:03] Blood, Lila, the dead Atreides, and sand.

[01:33:06] As Emmeline falls to the floor, there's an image of sand collapsing the tunnel.

[01:33:10] Suddenly Tula gasps.

[01:33:11] She realized it was, wasn't real.

[01:33:13] It was a vision.

[01:33:13] But when she looks up, Lila is gone.

[01:33:16] Uh, Tula gets up to look for her.

[01:33:19] She takes out her knife and she commands Anarul to wake up.

[01:33:22] And then we hear the energy surge and the lights begin to turn on and out of the darkness,

[01:33:27] Lila appears.

[01:33:28] Her eyes are the eyes of the Ibad, blue upon blue.

[01:33:31] Tula drops the knife and embraces her.

[01:33:34] Lila looks around and wonder, where am I?

[01:33:37] Okay.

[01:33:38] A lot here as well.

[01:33:40] Uh, gotta love a cone of silence.

[01:33:42] Always gotta shout out glow globes and hover chairs.

[01:33:45] Silence.

[01:33:47] And I love the orange Catholic Bible.

[01:33:49] I loved, uh, seeing that sort of small print and her little finger magnifying glass.

[01:33:55] Do you want to just quickly remind everybody about the orange Catholic Bible?

[01:33:58] So basically there was not long before this, like a century before this, I guess, um, less,

[01:34:05] there was a group who came together and was like, we're going to simplify all the religions

[01:34:10] in the galaxy by, um, merging them together into one super religion.

[01:34:15] And they called the book of that, the orange Catholic Bible.

[01:34:18] And when it first came out, you know, there was just mass chaos.

[01:34:23] People were not happy with this and the people behind it were getting killed and stuff, but

[01:34:30] then it settles down over time.

[01:34:32] And this becomes for millennia, the main religious text of the galaxy.

[01:34:37] Yep.

[01:34:38] And we see, uh, and we see, this is where I go to the theory that Dorothea is somehow involved in here.

[01:34:44] And that question of an abomination and I won't go, I'll leave it a little bit light.

[01:34:52] And we talked about it before, but if you think that you suddenly now have awakened all the other

[01:34:59] memories in your mind and your genetic history, that some of those voices might be louder than others.

[01:35:06] And they all want the spotlight.

[01:35:08] Like that's what we saw on the visions of Lila when she was, um, in the agony was that they're all

[01:35:14] trying to crowd into and get her attention.

[01:35:16] And what happens if you lose control of that?

[01:35:19] And that's really where a lot of the training of a reverend mother comes into play is being able to

[01:35:25] manage your mind and your body under that sort of assault from all of these other memories.

[01:35:31] And we certainly have this idea that Dorothea's, uh, uh, truth, right.

[01:35:38] And they're hinting that here, there are no truth concealed that will not be disclosed, right?

[01:35:42] The truth will out that Tula's sins against her, uh, sins, uh, you know, her, her deeds,

[01:35:50] her murders and the things that they have done.

[01:35:52] And it hard to keep that in secret for, for a long time.

[01:35:57] So.

[01:35:58] Yeah.

[01:35:59] Yeah.

[01:36:00] So is Emmeline the new Dorothea?

[01:36:02] She's a new zealot in the sisterhood.

[01:36:05] And I guess, is it just the dream that did this or is there something else driving this?

[01:36:10] That's what I'm wondering if there, there is a precedence in the later books for something

[01:36:14] like this kind of happening, but it's a stretch, right?

[01:36:17] I'm like, Oh, I'm not sure what you mean.

[01:36:20] Uh, the way that, um, I don't want to say too much.

[01:36:24] Uh, cause which books, the letter, the latter books, the latter OG books with, um, when we

[01:36:30] see the sister, when we're further out into the universe and things are going on between

[01:36:34] sisters.

[01:36:36] Um, yeah, we have, we have here the competing twice borns, but now that too.

[01:36:41] So we've have, um, another tool has said that she's sure the twice born is Lila.

[01:36:46] Now I'm like, well, is it now?

[01:36:48] I don't believe that either.

[01:36:50] A hundred percent.

[01:36:51] Uh, that, that, that would be a good misdirect if a writer wanted to throw it, confuse us

[01:36:56] and throw us off the sense.

[01:36:57] So, uh, and that's where I think I, I definitely, I don't know if it's because I'm overanalyzing,

[01:37:03] uh, but I can, I, I definitely feel the writers here, right.

[01:37:07] As opposed to other shows where, where it's a little bit more subtle.

[01:37:11] Anyway, let's wrap it up.

[01:37:13] Transformation.

[01:37:13] Valia and her uncle argue about the past causing another coughing fit.

[01:37:17] She keeps his nebulizer out of reach.

[01:37:20] I will not apologize for what I did and I will not apologize for my strength.

[01:37:24] If you had the courage to follow, uh, it, it wouldn't be the sisterhood now that towers

[01:37:29] over the Imperium.

[01:37:30] It'd be house Harkonnen, which I think is really interesting because it's like, what's

[01:37:33] too, what's Valia's motivation here, right?

[01:37:36] Domination for the sake of domination or for her family.

[01:37:39] Um, if Gainey dies and Valia hears whispers and her name being called, she turns to see

[01:37:46] Griffin and rushes to embrace him.

[01:37:48] I understand now what it took for you to come back here.

[01:37:51] If you're willing to make the sacrifice, so will I, I'll do whatever you need me to do.

[01:37:56] Uh, when asked Valia if she pushed him too far, uh, he assures her that everyone makes

[01:38:03] their own choices, including me.

[01:38:05] Valia holds Griffin's face in her hands and it appears to change.

[01:38:09] And Theodosia, uh, well then the, the figure walks away, goes into the room and Theodosia

[01:38:16] starts to, uh, cry out in agony and pain as she transforms back into herself from the

[01:38:23] form of Griffin.

[01:38:24] So, uh, this one, like I remember we were on the live watch.

[01:38:28] We have a special chat in the discord for folks who, who get to watch the episode live

[01:38:33] when it first airs and people were just like, what just happened?

[01:38:37] Like, what is this episode?

[01:38:39] And these writers in this episode, like I said before, they really enjoy bringing us to

[01:38:43] this big dramatic tension right at the end of the episode and then being on.

[01:38:47] So were you surprised by what we saw here?

[01:38:52] Well, I thought, yeah, when Griffin first walked in, I'm like, oh, is she hallucinating or something?

[01:38:56] That's what I thought.

[01:38:57] Yeah.

[01:38:58] And then obviously, you know, she has this whole thing where she gets, it's, it almost

[01:39:04] felt like Valia absolving herself with Theodosia's help.

[01:39:07] Um, it reminded me, I don't, I don't want to do any penguin spoilers, but it reminded me of

[01:39:12] something at the end of that episode where someone tells someone else to pretend to be

[01:39:18] another person and say nice things.

[01:39:21] Um, and yeah.

[01:39:24] And, and, you know, she's like, I understand now.

[01:39:26] So it makes me wonder, like, it makes me think about Valia.

[01:39:31] Like she, so Theodosia is like, I have this one condition that I, you know, I will not do

[01:39:40] this thing.

[01:39:40] And Valia is like, you have to do this thing.

[01:39:42] And then what she makes her forces her to do is to pretend to be her brother so that Valia

[01:39:48] can feel better about everything.

[01:39:50] Because you notice earlier in the episode, what she says, she says to her uncle, Griffin

[01:39:56] was my only equal, which first of all, ouch to Tula.

[01:40:00] And then her uncle says, you took Griffin from us, then poor Tula.

[01:40:04] And she says, I did nothing to Tula.

[01:40:06] So it's interesting.

[01:40:07] She does not clap back on the Griffin part.

[01:40:10] So she's feeling guilt about the Griffin thing.

[01:40:13] So she forces this, yeah, it's acolyte, um, to go through this painful thing.

[01:40:21] She says she doesn't want to do for something so petty as making herself feel better.

[01:40:25] And apparently that's who this version of Valia is.

[01:40:32] So, um, I, it was straining my credulity a little bit for Theodosia to turn into Griffin,

[01:40:41] because if it's so painful in such a taxing moment, why would you waste it on just on doing

[01:40:48] something that you could just say?

[01:40:50] But I get that the writers wanted to show us this to prep us.

[01:40:54] So, but I think it's like for Valia, you know, that it just shows how selfish Valia

[01:40:59] is and that Valia wanted to see her brother's face say that not just Theodosia's face.

[01:41:05] True.

[01:41:05] That's true.

[01:41:06] That's true.

[01:41:06] And that's a lot of empathy from Theodosia to overcome her one condition.

[01:41:12] Yeah.

[01:41:13] Yeah.

[01:41:14] Um, and it shows a lot of Theodosia's opinions about Valia that she'd be willing to go through

[01:41:19] that agony for, for, uh, for Valia to make her feel better.

[01:41:23] So it's quite an intimate moment.

[01:41:25] I don't think she did it out of kindness.

[01:41:26] I think that this is showing that Valia is a terrible person.

[01:41:31] I like the comment about Valia's, uh, selfishness.

[01:41:35] I think that's a really on point thing.

[01:41:36] She is very selfish.

[01:41:38] And, uh, pour one out for, um, uh, was Mark Addy.

[01:41:42] Uh, we, we hardly got to get you, but man, he's just eating the scenery in this thing when

[01:41:49] he's, he's launching his invictives at her.

[01:41:51] It was really, it was good.

[01:41:53] It was a forceful performance and it was a really dramatic moment between, uh, uncle and

[01:41:58] niece here.

[01:41:58] So, uh, I, I enjoyed that.

[01:42:01] Uh, and man, Valia and Tula, they're really wolves, aren't they?

[01:42:06] Like, they really are.

[01:42:08] They've got some, they've got some things to answer for coming up this.

[01:42:13] Uh, okay.

[01:42:15] So I'm going to point this out now and we can talk a little bit more later in the, in

[01:42:20] the book thing.

[01:42:21] But, um, in terms of theories of what's going on, I'm seeing, uh, a potential

[01:42:28] connection between Desmond and Theodosia here in terms of this inner heat thing.

[01:42:37] So as she's transforming, it looks like she's burning like, uh, Desmond was, you know, the,

[01:42:44] the people that were being burned by whatever Desmond is doing to them.

[01:42:48] Um, and so there's some, to me, there's some commonality there.

[01:42:52] And it does that, does that indicate a linkage or am I seeing, you know, uh, uh, Mark lays

[01:42:57] in shadows here?

[01:42:58] Am I seeing things that, you know, don't, uh, don't necessarily line up, but there's,

[01:43:02] I don't know.

[01:43:03] I think there's something there because there's this heating up of the body thing that's going

[01:43:08] on.

[01:43:08] So is it the same kind of technology, same basis in technology for, for how Theodosia

[01:43:14] and how Desmond are, are each operating?

[01:43:17] Uh, is there a connection between them?

[01:43:20] I think that's, that's potentially interesting topics.

[01:43:24] So if she is a face dancer, which it very much looks like she is basically the idea

[01:43:30] is that these, these are bred by a group.

[01:43:33] We haven't even, we've heard secondary references to them, like, but we haven't heard the word,

[01:43:40] uh, Tlilox or Benny Tlilox, you know?

[01:43:43] Um, but the, they are the people who create, they breed these face dancers.

[01:43:48] Uh, we've talked about this for the people who listen to the, to the lore spoiler stuff.

[01:43:53] And so we won't go into spoiler territory here, but basically, um, the way they, this works

[01:43:59] is that these face dancers have more muscle and nerve linkages in them so that they have,

[01:44:07] and then they have this sort of, um, you know, like the way the Bene Gesserit can control

[01:44:12] their inner body functions.

[01:44:14] It's like to an extreme degree with these face dancers so that they can actually, you know,

[01:44:19] slide these muscles and stuff over each other to reshape their form.

[01:44:25] And that, and that, you know, the way it's described looks very much exactly like what we

[01:44:31] saw with Theodosia in this episode.

[01:44:33] So I think we, it's safe to call her a face dancer, but then, yeah, that just raises more

[01:44:39] questions.

[01:44:39] They have only two episodes to answer.

[01:44:43] And, and there, uh, and this is where I see the linkage for between this show and the Villeneuve

[01:44:51] movies.

[01:44:52] Cause if they're going to do certain things in the third, if Villeneuve is going to do certain

[01:44:55] things in the third movie, then this show could potentially be laying groundwork for what

[01:45:01] we're going to get exposed to in the, in the third movie.

[01:45:04] So we'll see.

[01:45:06] All right.

[01:45:07] Well, that wraps the episode.

[01:45:08] So let's take a quick break.

[01:45:09] And then when we come back, we will get into a listener feedback and we're back.

[01:45:28] All right.

[01:45:28] Let's dive into some feedback.

[01:45:30] Again, you can send your feedback into dune at the lorehounds.com.

[01:45:36] Voicemails are encouraged.

[01:45:37] You can either use your, your voice memo app on your smartphone or go to our website and

[01:45:42] use the voicemail tool there.

[01:45:43] We also have a discord where we have individual channels for each episode.

[01:45:49] You can leave messages there and Nancy will sort of curate that.

[01:45:53] And then, uh, you may get answers back from, or questions back from Nancy.

[01:45:56] If you send any emails, you know, to clarify things, but gosh, Nancy, you are really a

[01:46:01] hero of the Imperium.

[01:46:02] Thank you so much.

[01:46:03] You have made Alicia and I's lives much, much easier.

[01:46:07] And I, I hope you're having fun because you seem to be having fun, but man, thank you

[01:46:10] so much.

[01:46:11] It's a, it's a massive help.

[01:46:13] All right.

[01:46:14] Uh, let's get into it.

[01:46:16] Uh, do you want to read Abby's, uh, first message?

[01:46:19] She says, what the, everyone is tripping, including the audience.

[01:46:24] Did they slip some spice in my tea?

[01:46:27] I wondered for a moment while sipping my Earl Grey.

[01:46:30] We had an Ixian.

[01:46:32] We had a face dancer, creepy, but cool.

[01:46:34] Kind of forbidden tech was Valia's iPhone also forbidden or a, just a dumb phone.

[01:46:40] Not a quote unquote smart one.

[01:46:41] Why did she have to destroy the SIM card?

[01:46:44] Do they consider every piece of tech as a thinking machine, even if it's just a dumb

[01:46:48] tool?

[01:46:49] And Desmond Hart leaving the blood was deliberate.

[01:46:52] And yeah, I think we've touched on all this, but she sums it up nicely.

[01:46:55] And I wish someone would slip some spice in my tea.

[01:46:59] Oh, and if I had to mention the category of this section of the feedback is what a trip?

[01:47:04] Question mark, question mark.

[01:47:05] And we had, you know, a lot of people do was commenting that his, his head was spinning.

[01:47:11] Aaron K said that, you know, he's, he's not feeling it like other people are.

[01:47:16] He said, this episode might've been the straw that broke the back for me.

[01:47:20] Episode three had me fully on board for the journey.

[01:47:22] And now I'm feeling shaky.

[01:47:24] Flamboyant gatekeeper says the episode was absolutely nuts.

[01:47:28] And opposite of Aaron where last week's episode, he, they thought it dragged an hour, you know,

[01:47:35] hour long flashback, but now is fully back and involved and excited about it.

[01:47:40] And, um, let's see.

[01:47:42] Maureen says I'm intrigued by the show, but I'm not totally hooked.

[01:47:47] I read the first two books and I've seen all the adaptations.

[01:47:50] The things seem to be coming out of left field.

[01:47:53] I wonder if the show appeals more to people who have read all of the books.

[01:47:58] I like the acting and I'm curious about the story, but it hasn't totally reeled me in.

[01:48:02] There are no redeeming characters.

[01:48:04] I'm not sure the world building has been established enough for non book readers.

[01:48:08] So again, it's going to that point of, for some people, the show is absolutely hitting.

[01:48:12] And for other people, it's like shaky.

[01:48:14] Nobody is, nobody seems to be completely throwing it out.

[01:48:18] People are staying engaged, but like, it's questionable at episode to episode.

[01:48:23] I think it also depends.

[01:48:25] I mean, I think actually book readers are less inclined to like the show because they're making us noivous.

[01:48:32] Yes.

[01:48:32] They're playing with things.

[01:48:34] And I said this on our mid season check-in with the Dune Minute podcast.

[01:48:38] It feels like the writers read the source material, but do they understand it?

[01:48:43] They're using it, but are they using it the right ways?

[01:48:46] I still wonder if there are people who understood the material writing the first draft, and then they brought in other people who mucked it up.

[01:48:54] That's not a bad theory.

[01:48:56] We've seen that happen before, especially on the show that the Marvel show that shall not be named.

[01:49:01] That shall not be named.

[01:49:03] All right.

[01:49:03] Can you, we're going to move on to our next category.

[01:49:07] Can you please read it?

[01:49:08] Six episodes.

[01:49:10] Pourquoi?

[01:49:12] Jordan says, this story is very condensed.

[01:49:15] Why just six episodes HBO?

[01:49:17] Pourquoi?

[01:49:18] I'm left wondering if the story building leading up to this episode was clumsy or brilliant.

[01:49:22] It finally had me fully captivated until DDD.

[01:49:27] What is Desmond something?

[01:49:29] I'm not sure what that, yeah.

[01:49:32] Let us know, Jordan.

[01:49:33] I both loved and hated watching the machinations of the sisterhood at work and guiding the Lanzarad.

[01:49:39] It was great to see.

[01:49:40] That's what they do so effectively.

[01:49:41] But they're known for being covert, and this was way too rushed and overt.

[01:49:46] Sigh.

[01:49:47] Give them more episodes.

[01:49:49] And Tuka, I didn't want to rewrite the show and found this episode much more enjoyable and coherent than the previous three.

[01:49:56] It just oddly feels as if there is both a lot going on and yet nothing all at the same time.

[01:50:02] Oof, HBO, we need longer seasons.

[01:50:05] I don't know that I think length of season would help, but I agree with a lot of the points.

[01:50:10] Although for me, the first episode was still my favorite because I think the promise lay before me and I'm like, ooh, Jesus, where are we going with this?

[01:50:18] Yeah, yeah.

[01:50:19] And they did a really good job with the first episode of bringing in all the lore bits and then setting the stakes.

[01:50:25] I thought episode one was really a good job.

[01:50:28] And I just feel for so many productions because this one had so many changes in terms of showrunners and writers and actors and strikes and COVID and all of this stuff.

[01:50:42] So we've seen that double whammy of COVID and the strikes really mess with shows badly.

[01:50:49] And so hopefully we're starting to iron some of that stuff out.

[01:50:53] All right.

[01:50:54] The next category, I love Nancy's category titles.

[01:50:57] Desmond Hart, Peanuts, Pigpen, and Polarizing.

[01:51:01] Abby says the costume department better give Desmond a new outfit for the next episode.

[01:51:05] I'm with you, Abby.

[01:51:07] Zatoichi says, I'll admit I like Desmond.

[01:51:09] Look, I'm so badass.

[01:51:11] I don't need to look fancy.

[01:51:13] I'm a soldier boy and I don't care about your high society stuff.

[01:51:16] Love it.

[01:51:17] Exactly.

[01:51:18] Marilyn.

[01:51:19] Exactly how I interpret his costume.

[01:51:21] That's right.

[01:51:23] Marilyn says, I think Hart is demonstrating his absolute power over the emperor.

[01:51:27] He doesn't have to conform to any dress codes.

[01:51:30] He's made himself indispensable.

[01:51:31] They're really digging into the Rasputin vibes.

[01:51:34] I did love the image of Desmond presenting all the scorpions fleeing in the face of Shai Hulud.

[01:51:41] A nice metaphor for how one's lesser fear flees before the terror.

[01:51:48] And I wonder why Hart bled as a result of the executions.

[01:51:53] I hope there's more a solid explanation than mere plot devices of getting some of his blood into the hands of the sisterhood.

[01:52:01] Yes.

[01:52:02] So it is definitely.

[01:52:04] I think it's more propaganda.

[01:52:05] What's that?

[01:52:06] I think it's more propaganda.

[01:52:08] What's propaganda?

[01:52:09] The bleeding.

[01:52:10] Oh, okay.

[01:52:11] The look at my blood.

[01:52:12] I'm a martyr.

[01:52:14] Right, right.

[01:52:15] And it's very, that idea of martyrdom and bleeding and Christ-like sacrifice.

[01:52:23] Like, oh, I'm sacrificing for myself for you.

[01:52:26] Yeah.

[01:52:27] Do you want to read Jordan's other email?

[01:52:29] Jordan says, I'm just going to say it.

[01:52:31] The Desmond storyline is ruining it for me.

[01:52:34] I had a moment.

[01:52:35] Yeah.

[01:52:35] I had a moment midway through episode four where I got excited and thought to myself, well, okay, finally.

[01:52:40] We're making some connections and getting somewhere, but then DDD, oh, okay, here we go.

[01:52:45] Now we get the explanation.

[01:52:47] Debbie Downer Desmond stepped in and ruined my excitement.

[01:52:51] Your initial thoughts on this magic-like immolation being out of place were spot on.

[01:52:56] It just doesn't fit in my humble opinion.

[01:52:58] And despite being a fan of Vikings and being one of those rare and weird super fans of Raised by Wolves, the casting of Fimmel in yet another more or less similar role is very off-putting.

[01:53:16] Needless to say, he's killing the mood for me.

[01:53:18] Hello.

[01:53:19] I'm very eager to hear your lore coverage as well as un gros merci for all your hard work and giving us these consistently amazing podcasts.

[01:53:29] Cheers, mes amis.

[01:53:30] Well, thank you very much.

[01:53:32] Thanks, Jordan.

[01:53:33] We appreciate it.

[01:53:33] I appreciate you always writing in.

[01:53:35] You're a faithful fan.

[01:53:37] Yeah, Fimmel definitely has gotten boxed into a weird position of who he's playing.

[01:53:44] But is that just his stick?

[01:53:47] Because I was really impressed by the way he portrayed Ragnar.

[01:53:52] But now that I've seen him only play the same character three times, I am less impressed.

[01:53:58] Yeah.

[01:53:59] It fits the character, but it's just like, okay, well, I'm going to poke him with a stick, do something else.

[01:54:05] And I wonder if they let him speak in his native accent if he could do something else.

[01:54:10] Just let him be Australian.

[01:54:14] Quick comments from Rocky Zim.

[01:54:16] What an episode.

[01:54:17] I like Desmond's speech and his animations of the scorpions.

[01:54:22] Desmond definitely has his own plans trying to gain control of the Imperium, taking down the Sisterhood.

[01:54:27] One thing we didn't mention, I posted this on Blue Sky.

[01:54:30] There's a side shot of Desmond's face and his eye is definitely sort of occluded or it's kind of got a blue tinge to it.

[01:54:40] And so they're definitely being very clever about who Desmond is and how he's operating.

[01:54:46] I feel like they're saying that the blue-eyed eyes in the sky that we keep seeing, that's inside his head.

[01:54:53] Yeah.

[01:54:54] Yeah.

[01:54:54] I think it's a good point.

[01:54:56] Eon wraps it up saying,

[01:54:57] I found Fimmel's acting this episode disconcertingly mannered in a way that took me out of the episode.

[01:55:05] So there you go.

[01:55:06] We've got back and forth.

[01:55:08] All right.

[01:55:08] Okay.

[01:55:09] Every little thing she does is magic.

[01:55:12] Do you want to read Flamborant Gatekeeper's first entry in this category?

[01:55:16] It says, I think it's now fully confirmed Desmond is a machine, right?

[01:55:21] Curious to hear where all this lands on a magic scale.

[01:55:24] Yeah.

[01:55:24] I mean, I wouldn't say it's fully confirmed, but we do at least get acknowledgement of that whirring sound.

[01:55:31] Mm-hmm.

[01:55:33] I don't know the lore particularly well, but the whole magic and dune doesn't go together seems a bit untrue to me.

[01:55:40] What the Bene Gesserit is doing is magic.

[01:55:44] However much they want to sell it as being in control of the body.

[01:55:47] Restructuring molecules isn't about awareness.

[01:55:49] That's magic.

[01:55:50] And I would say, you know, that's science fiction.

[01:55:52] Science fiction is about that borderline where, you know, all science advanced enough appears as magic to those who don't understand it.

[01:56:02] Right, Arthur C. Clarke.

[01:56:02] Mm-hmm.

[01:56:03] And of course, you know, science fiction, the fiction part is the fact that we're going beyond.

[01:56:09] But at least in the books, everything has, there is a sound basis.

[01:56:15] Like there is, you know, there are people who do deep meditation in our real world and can control their heartbeat or things like that.

[01:56:23] So it's an extension of real scientific principles.

[01:56:26] And that's why I'd say, at least in the books.

[01:56:28] So that's why, you know, we say that they're making it more like magic.

[01:56:32] There's no channeling like in the wheel of time.

[01:56:35] Right.

[01:56:37] There's no force like this.

[01:56:39] Yeah.

[01:56:39] In the Star Wars.

[01:56:40] Yeah.

[01:56:41] Right.

[01:56:41] Even though both of those borrow heavily from Dune.

[01:56:45] Exactly.

[01:56:46] Exactly.

[01:56:46] And I think it's a really fascinating continuum coming from Tolkien through Asimov, through Herbert, and then into Lucas and Jordan and so many others where we have these through lines of these, you know, interesting questions of science and technology of magic.

[01:57:04] And I think Frank Herbert was definitely in the, you know, had Arthur Clarke's, you know, any sufficiently advanced technologies indistinguishable from magic from that quote in 1962.

[01:57:20] So it's about the same time.

[01:57:22] So, you know, they're all dealing with the same stuff.

[01:57:24] And I think Herbert really worked hard to try to not have quote unquote magic, but actually ground everything that he wrote.

[01:57:33] Right.

[01:57:34] Yeah.

[01:57:35] So Flamboyant Gatekeeper continues.

[01:57:38] Desmond Hart is a problem as is Vaya.

[01:57:40] Those two have superpowers.

[01:57:41] There's no way around it.

[01:57:43] But, yeah, I mean, again, they do have powers beyond the average human, but he tries to ground it.

[01:57:51] And I understand this is always like I've been working on a novel for a long time that other people argue is fantasy.

[01:57:58] I'm like, it is science fiction.

[01:57:59] Let me explain.

[01:58:02] So it's just people have this idea of where that boundary is when it's rather a hazy one when it comes to fiction anyway.

[01:58:10] But Flamboyant Gatekeeper concludes, it does feel slightly out of place, but otherwise I'm fully on board.

[01:58:14] I'm engaged, slightly confused and down for the ride, which is a good place to be.

[01:58:19] Yeah, I think a lot of us are.

[01:58:21] All right, Marilyn says, unless they resolve the question of how heart is able to burn people, I'm afraid that we're going to be led down the path of believing that magic is a thing in the Dune universe, which I realize is rather anathema to many readers.

[01:58:36] I also think of my own frustration concerning Middle Earth.

[01:58:40] And remember, Marilyn's a Tolkien scholar and taught Tolkien for many years.

[01:58:45] And the ways that people interpret and understand Elvish craft as magic.

[01:58:50] It's just not so, at least not that simplistic binary level.

[01:58:56] But for those who haven't read the books, it would certainly appear that way.

[01:59:01] I imagine for those who understand the nature of unusual occurrences in Dune to have a basis in science, this could be a frustrating retelling.

[01:59:11] One keeps hoping that they will reveal the scientific basis for things.

[01:59:14] But I appreciate what Alicia has to say about the differences between the development of the voice in the books, even though I haven't had a clue to what it was, and the series.

[01:59:24] Desmond's antics could certainly be some form of mechanism.

[01:59:28] But I think we've entered the realm of Arthur C. Clarke's statement.

[01:59:32] Oh, there we go.

[01:59:33] Yeah.

[01:59:33] I hadn't read these before ahead of time.

[01:59:35] So, statement that any technology that can't be explained will appear as magic to those who don't understand the technology.

[01:59:43] Right.

[01:59:44] Well, I think that's a good summation of it.

[01:59:47] And I like the fact that we're all thinking around the same things here.

[01:59:51] Like, I want an answer.

[01:59:53] That's what Frank's promise to me was, is that these magical things have scientifically understandable answers.

[02:00:01] But science isn't science.

[02:00:03] I was having this great conversation with my daughter a couple weeks ago over Thanksgiving break.

[02:00:08] We were talking about, is science a thing or is science a tool or a framework to understand the world?

[02:00:16] Mm-hmm.

[02:00:17] And if you look at, say, the Aes Sedai, they're using science to understand a naturally occurring phenomenon, the weave.

[02:00:25] Right?

[02:00:25] And they're practicing.

[02:00:27] The power.

[02:00:28] Yeah.

[02:00:28] I have a theory.

[02:00:30] This is how I'm going to test that theory.

[02:00:32] That theory proves true how I can access the weave in these ways.

[02:00:36] Right?

[02:00:36] That's science.

[02:00:37] Right?

[02:00:38] Shall we move on to Nancy?

[02:00:40] Yeah.

[02:00:41] That'd be great.

[02:00:41] So, Hand of the Pod, Nancy M says, there are a lot of mysteries attached to Desmond Hart.

[02:00:47] I noticed this one while watching episode four.

[02:00:49] Early in the episode, Desmond is alone in his room.

[02:00:52] He rips a page from a book and sets it on fire.

[02:00:55] There's a close-up of the page, and the language and characters are indecipherable.

[02:01:00] But he's able to read the words, what you seek is seeking you.

[02:01:04] Later in the scene, Emperor Havico calls it the sisterhood book.

[02:01:08] This led me down a sandworm hole.

[02:01:10] I see what you did there.

[02:01:12] That's funny.

[02:01:13] I believe that the book he's holding is the Azar book, which according to the Dune Wiki

[02:01:18] is a Bene Gesserit compilation of religious and bibliographic information.

[02:01:24] Supposedly, it preserves the great secrets of the most ancient faiths.

[02:01:28] Yeah, specifically the sorcerer.

[02:01:30] Oh, she continues on.

[02:01:31] Sorry.

[02:01:32] The Azar book was written in the Azar language, which was a secret language used by the

[02:01:37] sorceresses of Rosak before the Butlerian Jihad.

[02:01:39] So how the heck was Desmond able to read what was in the book?

[02:01:44] What exactly is his connection to the sisterhood?

[02:01:47] Is this one more of his magic powers?

[02:01:50] And yeah, this is my question is like, this is, yeah, this is all true.

[02:01:55] So is this just the writers simplifying or being sloppy?

[02:01:59] Or is there something we should be reading into this?

[02:02:03] I don't wonder if this isn't sort of an Easter egg for the Reddit detectives and the deep book

[02:02:09] readers to recognize that.

[02:02:11] Because if you didn't know, I didn't know that this was that language and I'm a reader.

[02:02:18] I think that's just a fun little nod to us.

[02:02:23] But then that would be a dumb one to do because it just makes us ask the questions that Nancy's asking.

[02:02:28] How can he read?

[02:02:29] Right.

[02:02:30] And I think, but then I think that that then will play in because once they connect the dots

[02:02:34] on him, then we'll go, aha, like now that makes sense.

[02:02:37] Or like now there's some mystery revealed.

[02:02:39] So I think it connects.

[02:02:41] I just don't know.

[02:02:42] But I love the fact that Nancy's almost the third person in this podcast.

[02:02:46] Yeah, she absolutely is.

[02:02:48] Well, I love that Nancy, Nancy, you have to update us on how your reading is going.

[02:02:52] I know she's been reading the prequel, the Great Schools trilogy.

[02:02:58] Right, right.

[02:02:59] Okay, Aaron K on the Discord.

[02:03:02] For me, the sisterhood has begun to feel a little too fantastical, if that makes sense.

[02:03:05] I love the mysticism and power surrounding them in the main Dune story, but it feels like they're

[02:03:09] taking some of the agency and hard work away from them.

[02:03:12] Valia uses the voice as a random discovery rather than a product of evolution or development

[02:03:17] of the process through hard work feels a bit off to me.

[02:03:21] Although I do love that it came to her in a moment of great need with Griffin.

[02:03:26] Overall, I just feel so conflicted on the show, especially with Desmond Hart's powers.

[02:03:31] There's so much to love and the good moments hit so well for me, but then the bad moments

[02:03:37] pull me out of the story.

[02:03:39] I'm not giving up on the show though.

[02:03:41] I have hope that episode five is going to bring me back.

[02:03:45] I think a lot.

[02:03:46] Yeah.

[02:03:46] Yes, Aaron, you are not alone in some of your summations.

[02:03:50] Yeah.

[02:03:50] All right.

[02:03:51] Valia's knife skills on display.

[02:03:53] Do you want to read Nancy's message?

[02:03:55] So Nancy says, while creating this episode summary, I noticed something I didn't while

[02:03:59] watching the episode live.

[02:04:01] Theodosia is worried that the thinking machine the rebels are set to release could kill everyone

[02:04:07] at the high council meeting.

[02:04:08] However, Valia assures her she won't fail.

[02:04:11] As if to prove it, she throws the knife she was holding at the wall and kills a large insect

[02:04:16] that is crawling up the wall.

[02:04:17] I thought that was odd.

[02:04:18] But when Desmond takes over the high council meeting, we get a shot of her putting the

[02:04:23] knife away.

[02:04:23] This leads me to believe that her plan was to get back into the emperor's good graces,

[02:04:28] quote unquote, was to throw her knife at the quote unquote autonomous drone modified with

[02:04:33] the thermal bomb and disable or kill it.

[02:04:36] Her plan was to save the emperor with her knife skills.

[02:04:39] Perhaps she got the idea when Desmond captured Pruitt's toy with his own knife at the

[02:04:44] engagement party.

[02:04:45] Oh, yeah.

[02:04:46] I buy into this.

[02:04:47] I think good observation and a good thought.

[02:04:49] There's a lot of knife play in this episode as well.

[02:04:53] There's scenes of knives, people holding knives.

[02:04:56] There's a knife on the table at one point.

[02:04:58] So, yeah, I think they really are playing with it.

[02:05:00] There's even a scene in the trailer that we haven't got to yet with more knife work.

[02:05:07] So, yeah, I think you're onto something, Nancy.

[02:05:08] I think that's a really good catch.

[02:05:11] They are being very tricksy, the showrunners, in layering a lot of this stuff in.

[02:05:16] Yes, they are.

[02:05:17] All right.

[02:05:18] Next up.

[02:05:18] Is there a Dune afterlife?

[02:05:20] Jasmine writes in an email.

[02:05:22] Hey, Dave and Alicia.

[02:05:22] I'm really curious what the authors of Dune wrote about the afterlife in the world they

[02:05:27] recreated.

[02:05:27] Is the spice Lila enters during the agony a sort of purgatory for the souls of past mothers

[02:05:35] and sisters, or is it a punishment?

[02:05:37] Is the idea of soul even a thing?

[02:05:41] Are there different afterlives for good and bad people, including non-Beni Gesserit, however

[02:05:46] those categories are defined?

[02:05:48] Something I love about fantasy and Dune prophecy in particular are different depictions of spirituality.

[02:05:53] I wonder if Herbert or the other writers had anything to say about what happens to people

[02:05:57] after they die, and if you think we'll get more answers in the show.

[02:06:01] It's been fun learning about the world of Dune, and I love the Lorehound shows as well, especially

[02:06:06] Silo and The Wheel of Time.

[02:06:08] You've got a fan, Jasmine.

[02:06:10] I know who Jasmine is.

[02:06:11] We interact a lot on social media, so great to see you, Jasmine.

[02:06:15] And yes, Silo and The Wheel of Time.

[02:06:17] Everyone should be watching those too, especially.

[02:06:19] And we have a release date for Wheel of Time, right?

[02:06:21] Yes, we do.

[02:06:22] March 13th.

[02:06:23] You guys are going to...

[02:06:24] This is going to be a busy year.

[02:06:26] I was just putting some lists together.

[02:06:27] Man, it's going to be brutal.

[02:06:29] I was just looking at like, okay, so that means it's one week after Oscar coverage ends,

[02:06:34] two weeks before Severance coverage ends, and it means it'll overlap with Andor for a month.

[02:06:41] Oh, man.

[02:06:42] Here we go.

[02:06:43] Here we go.

[02:06:44] This is not slowing down.

[02:06:46] Okay.

[02:06:48] Jasmine, I think I'm trying to remember in the OG books, there's never talk of an afterlife

[02:06:55] that I remember.

[02:06:57] They do talk about the mind and the soul of human beings as being holy and special.

[02:07:01] We certainly have religious things in the Orange Catholic Bible, but Frank Herbert never really

[02:07:07] goes into deep...

[02:07:09] I think in the appendices, he talks a lot about the Orange Catholic Bible, but in the main storyline,

[02:07:14] it's just an artifact that is around.

[02:07:17] And the other memories is not a purgatory in the sense that there are identities are captured

[02:07:27] in your genetic code, and they're all there.

[02:07:31] They're all existing.

[02:07:33] Just like if you think of a loved one or a family member who's passed away, we have this idea

[02:07:39] that they live on with us in our memories.

[02:07:41] That's what the other memories are, except that the sisters can activate a landscape where

[02:07:48] those other memories can have voice and actually...

[02:07:54] It's not even awaken.

[02:07:55] They're awake, but we can't hear them?

[02:07:57] I don't know.

[02:07:57] Is that the right description?

[02:07:59] Yeah.

[02:07:59] So it's, yeah, this idea of looking back through your ancestors.

[02:08:04] So that's why in...

[02:08:06] I don't know if the show is breaking this lore or if we're going to learn something about

[02:08:12] Lila's parentage, but that's why in the books, you only can do this until the moment of birth

[02:08:20] for the next generation, because that's when you separate from this DNA giver, let's call

[02:08:25] your mother.

[02:08:27] But yeah, as far as afterlife, this is a future version of our own world.

[02:08:33] So I would say it's the same as it is for us now in that people, different groups have

[02:08:40] different ideas.

[02:08:43] Yeah.

[02:08:45] And you haven't read that much more into the extended universe, so just a couple of things,

[02:08:51] right?

[02:08:52] I mean, but I have looked it up.

[02:08:54] I mean, I know that it's after...

[02:08:57] I did look it up.

[02:08:58] I know that afterlife is mentioned just in the same way that it would be in our world, because

[02:09:04] it is our world.

[02:09:05] There's not some...

[02:09:06] It's not like they've made contact with the other side or something like that.

[02:09:10] It's not Ghostbusters.

[02:09:15] Okay.

[02:09:16] Thanks, Jasmine.

[02:09:17] I hope to hear from you again some more.

[02:09:20] All right.

[02:09:20] Now we've got the random bag of thoughts about characters and stuff.

[02:09:24] Jean on the Discord says, is young Kyrian Atreides being protected as part of a larger

[02:09:30] plan?

[02:09:31] What role does Jen play in all of this?

[02:09:33] Those are both really good questions.

[02:09:35] Is Kyrian being protected directly or indirectly?

[02:09:41] I'm not sure, but we certainly have drawn a line.

[02:09:45] The official podcast said that he is the son of Albert, right?

[02:09:49] Mm-hmm.

[02:09:50] And what role does Jen play in all of this?

[02:09:52] I think that's a really good question that we need to be paying attention to.

[02:09:56] Mm-hmm.

[02:09:58] Absolutely.

[02:09:58] Do you want to read Marilyn's next message?

[02:10:00] Yes.

[02:10:02] Our favorite Tolkien scholar says, why was Jen the only one who didn't dream?

[02:10:06] Good question, Marilyn.

[02:10:07] Why does she appear to be so immune to so much?

[02:10:10] Why is no one attempting to bring her into conformity?

[02:10:12] I keep wondering why the whispering doesn't drive the mothers mad.

[02:10:16] Yeah, I guess it just becomes part of your...

[02:10:19] The sisters are showing excellent examples of the way that deep fear leads to absolutism

[02:10:24] and fundamentalism.

[02:10:26] They could also definitely use more light in their quarters, both physical and metaphorical.

[02:10:31] As predicted, Lila has blue eyes now.

[02:10:34] One of my favorite lines, both in this episode and outside, particularly when it comes from women,

[02:10:39] I will not apologize for my strength.

[02:10:41] Say it, sister.

[02:10:42] Mm-hmm.

[02:10:43] I found it interesting that the imperial breakfast table is set in a bit of open-air architecture

[02:10:49] that looks like the ribs of a ship or of a whale.

[02:10:53] I thought the whale was associated with the Harkonnens.

[02:10:56] Yeah, very interesting.

[02:10:57] I thought the empress's headdress was very Byzantine, and I liked the way the crown princess's headdress was shaped

[02:11:04] with the same framework as the empress's headdress.

[02:11:07] And yeah, she did say something at the wedding about how her veil was based on her mother's.

[02:11:14] Yeah, the costume and props have been on point in this show.

[02:11:18] Just everything looks so good.

[02:11:20] So good.

[02:11:21] Yeah.

[02:11:21] So well thought out too.

[02:11:22] Yeah.

[02:11:23] And Marilyn says, I consider myself adjacent to the non-book readers as I only ever read the first one,

[02:11:29] yet I'm finding the whole thing excellent, very compelling.

[02:11:32] Usually I tend to feel uncomfortable if all we're getting is characters of varying shades of gray.

[02:11:39] If I thought about it, I guess I would say the Atreides guy is pretty clearly intended as good as is Princess Inez.

[02:11:45] I can even have the compassion for Valia, and I think that speaks volumes to the acting abilities of Emily Watson.

[02:11:55] Yeah, they're giving us a variety of characters, but I think somebody else said before, they're like,

[02:12:01] oh, I don't have anybody that I can attach myself to.

[02:12:03] And we were attached to Valia and Tula, but now they've kind of made us to really think about, wow, they've done some horrific stuff.

[02:12:13] Right.

[02:12:14] I guess that's where they're going for is like, have empathy for the, this is the year of having empathy for the villains because it's dark times out there.

[02:12:23] Some of us are in the middle of our villain origin era.

[02:12:26] Well, we need a, we need a villain to bring us out of the darkness in Skeleton Crew, right?

[02:12:31] I haven't watched episode three yet.

[02:12:33] I think my wife and I are going to watch it later this week.

[02:12:35] Was it good?

[02:12:36] Was it good?

[02:12:36] Yeah, it was good.

[02:12:37] It was good.

[02:12:37] It's a lot.

[02:12:39] I mean, I am.

[02:12:40] I'm all in on Skeleton Crew.

[02:12:41] I love Skeleton Crew.

[02:12:43] Jordan M., before I drop the mic, Uncle Harkonnen, Evgeny, dude, if you have a severe respiratory,

[02:12:52] I've not re-read this email.

[02:12:54] If you have a severe respiratory condition, why would you depend on your puffer to live?

[02:12:58] Why the hell wouldn't you have that on your person at all times?

[02:13:02] The nurse in me cringed.

[02:13:05] So I guess Jordan works in the medical field.

[02:13:07] So I get the point.

[02:13:08] It's pretty funny.

[02:13:10] Jordan has spoken about being a nurse before, but yeah, I don't know.

[02:13:13] I guess like a lot of people keep it in their bag or something like that, but yeah.

[02:13:18] Yeah.

[02:13:19] Okay.

[02:13:19] So the last few emails that we have here, last couple of comments are spoilery.

[02:13:25] So we'll save those for the spoiler section.

[02:13:27] At this stage, we're going to wrap things up for the main episode.

[02:13:32] We will give our shout outs and our thanks and all that kind of stuff.

[02:13:36] We'll play the credit music and then we will come back and we'll talk about some more bookie,

[02:13:41] spoilery, weirdness stuff.

[02:13:44] So hang tight if you're into that kind of thing.

[02:13:47] Alicia, what have you got coming up in your world?

[02:13:52] You've got some Wolfship Dust.

[02:13:53] You've got some Wicked.

[02:13:54] I think you finally saw Wicked.

[02:13:56] Yeah.

[02:13:57] So we're recording Wicked on Friday and I'll get that out as soon as possible.

[02:14:01] But yeah, very, very deep in silo, just pumping out as many silo, especially pre-producing

[02:14:06] for the holidays.

[02:14:08] So, and we are also, Luke and I are, in addition to the Christmas coverage that we're doing on

[02:14:14] the Lorehounds with the Netflix stuff on Wolfship Dust, Luke and I are doing deep coverage of

[02:14:19] A Christmas Carol.

[02:14:21] Nice.

[02:14:22] So we have multiple episodes of A Christmas Carol coming up.

[02:14:25] And then we had a little bit of A Christmas Party with our good friend Anna Claus who guested

[02:14:29] along with John's spouse, Maya, and you and I.

[02:14:33] And we talked about Hot Frosty and Our Little Secret, two of Netflix's holiday rom-com movies

[02:14:41] out this year.

[02:14:42] We had some fun roasting those, roasting our marshmallows on an open fire.

[02:14:47] It was interesting.

[02:14:48] Some really liked one more than the other.

[02:14:50] And then it seems like everyone had one of the two that was the favorite and the other

[02:14:55] one was like, hmm.

[02:14:56] Yeah.

[02:14:57] It was a really interesting split.

[02:14:58] It was really interesting.

[02:14:59] Anyway, it was great to talk to Anna Claus.

[02:15:01] And then you guys have also put out for subscribers what the Princess Switch?

[02:15:05] Well, first, A Christmas Prince is out now and A Princess Switch is coming.

[02:15:12] I can't keep all this royalty in line.

[02:15:15] I also just released a Star Trek 45th anniversary podcast with our good friend Ian from the Captain's

[02:15:23] Pod.

[02:15:23] We go for about two and a half hours just deep into Star Trek.

[02:15:28] And it was a lot of fun.

[02:15:29] And we're looking forward to some future projects there.

[02:15:33] I think John and Marilyn are going to record some stuff for Skeleton Crew.

[02:15:37] And I know you would be there if it were not for a silo.

[02:15:41] Right.

[02:15:41] I sent in a voicemail for the first two episodes and now that the third is going to be included,

[02:15:46] I'll send in a second voicemail for that.

[02:15:48] Sounds good.

[02:15:49] Anything else you want to touch base on or let's get into thanking our subscribers and

[02:15:54] supporters?

[02:15:55] I swear the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast is going to get my full attention in January

[02:16:00] once I'm done drowning in other stuff and also other work stuff.

[02:16:04] Yeah, yeah.

[02:16:05] We still have to, you know, the real life stuff.

[02:16:07] So do you want to shout out our Discord server boosters and our lore masters?

[02:16:12] And I want to say this is real life stuff for me, the podcasting.

[02:16:15] I take it very seriously.

[02:16:17] You do.

[02:16:17] So that's true.

[02:16:19] A little lo-fi music for you.

[02:16:21] So here we go.

[02:16:23] All right.

[02:16:24] Thank you to our Discord server boosters.

[02:16:35] Thank you to all of our listeners.

[02:16:37] Thank you especially to our lore hounds.

[02:16:40] And thank you most especially to our lore masters, our highest tier of subscribers.

[02:16:45] Samarshan, Michael G, Michelle E, Brian P, SC, Peter O.H., Retina W, Adam S, Nancy M,

[02:16:52] Doob 71, Brian 80, 63, Frederick H, Sarah L, Garrett C, Eric F, Matthew M, Sarah M, DJ

[02:17:00] J.B. Wong, Andra B.,

[02:17:01] Kwong Yu, Dead Eye Jedi Bob,

[02:17:03] Nathan T., Alex B.,

[02:17:05] Aaron T., Sub Zero, Aaron K.,

[02:17:07] Dally V., Mothership 61,

[02:17:10] Knarls,

[02:17:11] Kathy W., Lestu, Jeffrey B.,

[02:17:13] Elisa U., Neil F., Ben B.,

[02:17:15] Scott F., Stephen N.,

[02:17:17] and always last, Adrian.

[02:17:19] Thank you to all of you.

[02:17:21] You make it possible for

[02:17:23] keep doing this.

[02:17:25] All right, stick around for the book spoilers.

[02:17:28] The Lorehounds Podcast

[02:17:29] is produced and published by The Lorehounds.

[02:17:31] You can send questions and feedback

[02:17:33] and voicemails at

[02:17:34] thelorehounds.com slash contact.

[02:17:37] Get early and ad-free access

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[02:17:43] Any opinions stated are ours personally

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[02:17:48] Thanks for listening.

[02:17:51] Okay, here we go.

[02:17:53] Let's dive into the feedback

[02:17:55] here really quick.

[02:17:56] Shane on the Discord says,

[02:17:57] starting to think the voice

[02:17:59] in the blue eyes

[02:18:00] they all hear

[02:18:01] and draw

[02:18:02] is

[02:18:03] Leto II,

[02:18:04] Leto II,

[02:18:05] but I guess it could also

[02:18:06] easily be

[02:18:07] Paul Atreides.

[02:18:09] And Jordan says,

[02:18:10] Desmond Hart's blue eyes

[02:18:12] must be the god emperor,

[02:18:13] right?

[02:18:14] That would be a brilliant

[02:18:15] and potentially

[02:18:15] help explain

[02:18:16] the Dune

[02:18:17] Villeneuve-verse,

[02:18:18] shout out to Quebec,

[02:18:19] for future films.

[02:18:21] It's also a bit out of the blue

[02:18:22] for those not familiar

[02:18:23] with the story.

[02:18:24] And if they aren't Leto's eyes

[02:18:26] looking back

[02:18:26] on the past

[02:18:27] and guiding the sisterhood,

[02:18:29] then it equally

[02:18:30] doesn't make much sense.

[02:18:32] Hence my thoughts

[02:18:33] on the clumsy

[02:18:33] versus brilliant writing.

[02:18:35] Speaking of those eyes,

[02:18:38] holy shy Hulud,

[02:18:39] that drawing scene

[02:18:40] was phenomenal

[02:18:41] when they

[02:18:43] poetically pointed out

[02:18:44] the moment

[02:18:44] that Tula lost control

[02:18:46] of the acolytes

[02:18:47] whilst I'm presuming

[02:18:48] Leto took over.

[02:18:50] Phew,

[02:18:50] that gave me chills.

[02:18:51] God is watching.

[02:18:52] God is judging.

[02:18:53] Ooh,

[02:18:53] girl,

[02:18:54] shivers.

[02:18:54] What a gripping moment

[02:18:56] and Tula steals

[02:18:57] every scene.

[02:18:58] I guess my overall

[02:19:00] quibble is that

[02:19:01] those eyes

[02:19:02] really need to be Leto,

[02:19:04] but at this point,

[02:19:05] the Villeneuve-verse,

[02:19:06] that would be,

[02:19:06] the point,

[02:19:08] but at this point

[02:19:10] in the Villeneuve-verse,

[02:19:11] that would be a bit weird.

[02:19:12] Oh,

[02:19:13] and that face dancer reveal,

[02:19:14] I can only hope

[02:19:15] that she's a mutant

[02:19:17] of sorts

[02:19:17] and they're

[02:19:18] by the original

[02:19:19] genetic source

[02:19:20] for the Benetailax clones.

[02:19:22] If not,

[02:19:22] it makes even more

[02:19:24] Swiss cheese

[02:19:24] out of this timeline.

[02:19:27] So,

[02:19:29] I'm just scanning

[02:19:30] the rest of the feedback.

[02:19:34] Okay,

[02:19:35] that's other stuff.

[02:19:37] So,

[02:19:37] let's talk about it.

[02:19:39] Do you want to start

[02:19:40] with the God Emperor

[02:19:41] and the Golden Path?

[02:19:42] Do you have any thoughts there?

[02:19:44] I mean,

[02:19:45] I just,

[02:19:45] you know,

[02:19:46] nothing new to add,

[02:19:48] just,

[02:19:48] it seems

[02:19:49] that they were,

[02:19:50] that they have been

[02:19:51] referring to him.

[02:19:52] They've used the word

[02:19:54] God,

[02:19:55] I think,

[02:19:55] you know,

[02:19:56] they just,

[02:19:57] they've used several words

[02:19:58] that seem to be referring

[02:19:58] to later books,

[02:19:59] but now I'm like,

[02:20:00] we're so deep

[02:20:02] into the show.

[02:20:03] Can they bring in,

[02:20:04] they've just introduced

[02:20:05] face dancers,

[02:20:06] so,

[02:20:06] and we still haven't even

[02:20:07] heard about the,

[02:20:09] I can say this word

[02:20:10] a lot too.

[02:20:11] Slack sleep,

[02:20:12] yes.

[02:20:13] It's a hard one.

[02:20:13] Um,

[02:20:15] so I,

[02:20:15] I just don't know

[02:20:16] how much they can

[02:20:17] bring together.

[02:20:19] Um,

[02:20:19] you know,

[02:20:20] what's come to my attention

[02:20:21] as I look this up

[02:20:22] is,

[02:20:23] so we've talked about

[02:20:24] the Gola

[02:20:25] or our sort of clones

[02:20:27] that are taken,

[02:20:28] uh,

[02:20:29] where the cells are taken

[02:20:30] from after

[02:20:30] the person's death.

[02:20:32] Right.

[02:20:32] So they contain

[02:20:33] the death memory

[02:20:34] of the person

[02:20:35] they remember dying

[02:20:36] as well.

[02:20:37] It,

[02:20:37] once that's unlocked

[02:20:38] and yeah.

[02:20:39] Right.

[02:20:40] Um,

[02:20:41] but clones,

[02:20:42] clones exist also

[02:20:43] and it's basically

[02:20:44] the same thing

[02:20:45] but the cells are taken

[02:20:46] while the person

[02:20:46] is still alive

[02:20:47] so they don't

[02:20:48] remember their death.

[02:20:49] So what if

[02:20:50] Desmond were a clone

[02:20:51] instead of a

[02:20:52] Gola?

[02:20:53] Right.

[02:20:55] And I think,

[02:20:56] so I wanted to touch on

[02:20:57] it's,

[02:20:58] it's interesting

[02:20:58] and then what Jordan

[02:20:59] said too about like

[02:21:00] is this a proto face dancer

[02:21:02] because,

[02:21:03] oh,

[02:21:03] that would make sense.

[02:21:05] So like this whole story

[02:21:07] is supposed to be

[02:21:07] an origin story stuff,

[02:21:09] right?

[02:21:09] About the voice,

[02:21:10] about the Bene Gesserit,

[02:21:11] about the Sardaukar,

[02:21:12] all these things.

[02:21:13] What if this is

[02:21:14] the origin story

[02:21:15] for Golas and face dancers

[02:21:17] that maybe that theory

[02:21:19] is good

[02:21:20] that her condition,

[02:21:23] right?

[02:21:23] Both,

[02:21:23] both her condition

[02:21:24] of like,

[02:21:25] I have this condition

[02:21:25] and I don't want

[02:21:26] to use this.

[02:21:27] Face dancers

[02:21:28] canonically

[02:21:30] don't have personality,

[02:21:32] right?

[02:21:32] They are,

[02:21:33] they are,

[02:21:34] they have mind,

[02:21:34] right?

[02:21:35] Yeah.

[02:21:36] And they're,

[02:21:37] they're,

[02:21:37] they're a tool

[02:21:38] that is devoid

[02:21:39] of themselves.

[02:21:40] They don't have

[02:21:41] a sense of self

[02:21:42] in the same way

[02:21:42] that we have a sense of.

[02:21:43] So that goes into,

[02:21:46] oh,

[02:21:47] what's her name's,

[02:21:48] sorry,

[02:21:48] I'm scanning back

[02:21:49] to the email,

[02:21:50] that previous email

[02:21:53] from,

[02:21:55] oh,

[02:21:55] who is it

[02:21:56] that was your fan?

[02:21:57] Oh,

[02:21:57] Jasmine.

[02:21:58] Jasmine.

[02:21:58] Thank you.

[02:21:58] Sorry, Jasmine.

[02:21:59] My friend.

[02:21:59] Yeah.

[02:22:01] Jasmine's point

[02:22:02] of the soul

[02:22:03] and the afterlife,

[02:22:04] face dancers

[02:22:05] don't have that.

[02:22:06] Mm-hmm.

[02:22:07] But what if

[02:22:09] Theodosia

[02:22:10] is a proto-face dancer

[02:22:12] that then,

[02:22:13] you know,

[02:22:13] that she has this

[02:22:14] weird genetic condition

[02:22:15] that then is

[02:22:16] then exploited

[02:22:17] later on?

[02:22:18] Yeah.

[02:22:19] Maybe we'll find out

[02:22:20] she's from

[02:22:21] Benny Twi'Lex

[02:22:21] or something,

[02:22:22] which,

[02:22:23] yeah,

[02:22:23] because then later

[02:22:24] there are no more

[02:22:25] women's.

[02:22:26] Right.

[02:22:27] They're just axolotl tanks.

[02:22:30] So then

[02:22:31] with the Gola,

[02:22:33] you know,

[02:22:34] or if Desmond

[02:22:35] is a type of Gola

[02:22:36] or clone,

[02:22:38] does he have

[02:22:39] Ixian technology?

[02:22:41] You know,

[02:22:41] like,

[02:22:42] is there some

[02:22:43] other nefarious plot

[02:22:45] that they're using him

[02:22:47] as a human drone,

[02:22:48] as a human bomb,

[02:22:49] right,

[02:22:50] to get into the emperor

[02:22:51] to blow the emperor

[02:22:52] up in some way?

[02:22:53] You know,

[02:22:54] to not literally,

[02:22:56] but to like,

[02:22:57] you know,

[02:22:57] get somebody close

[02:22:58] to the emperor

[02:22:58] to manipulate things.

[02:23:01] Because

[02:23:03] canonically,

[02:23:04] Golas,

[02:23:05] like you said,

[02:23:05] they have their memories

[02:23:06] up until their death

[02:23:07] and that's what we saw

[02:23:08] when we went into Desmond's eyes,

[02:23:10] the moment of his death.

[02:23:12] Right?

[02:23:13] When the sandworm

[02:23:13] is coming at him.

[02:23:15] And then when he says,

[02:23:17] the pain is what brought me

[02:23:18] to you,

[02:23:18] Golas have to go through

[02:23:21] a moment of intense pain,

[02:23:25] psychological pain,

[02:23:26] and to be able

[02:23:27] to unlock,

[02:23:28] like the mothers do

[02:23:29] with the agony

[02:23:30] to unlock their other memories,

[02:23:32] Golas to be able

[02:23:33] to unlock

[02:23:33] their past life memories,

[02:23:36] have to go through

[02:23:37] a crucible,

[02:23:38] a psychological crucible

[02:23:39] to unlock those.

[02:23:41] So when they use

[02:23:42] the word pain,

[02:23:43] that also really triggered me

[02:23:44] as saying,

[02:23:45] oh,

[02:23:45] this is very Gola

[02:23:46] technology.

[02:23:48] So.

[02:23:49] But,

[02:23:50] so,

[02:23:50] yeah.

[02:23:51] But Golas,

[02:23:52] we haven't seen them

[02:23:53] like heat up

[02:23:54] or do these things

[02:23:55] or.

[02:23:56] Which is weird

[02:23:57] because then,

[02:23:58] so is that why

[02:23:58] there's like maybe

[02:23:59] some Ixian technology

[02:24:00] that's being used,

[02:24:01] you know,

[02:24:02] that did some,

[02:24:02] something from the Ixians.

[02:24:04] I said I wanted

[02:24:04] to see the Ixians

[02:24:06] and the Tlilaxu

[02:24:08] work together,

[02:24:09] so.

[02:24:09] Right.

[02:24:10] Maybe I'll get my wish.

[02:24:11] Maybe,

[02:24:12] you know,

[02:24:12] maybe that's where it is.

[02:24:13] Um,

[02:24:15] and then,

[02:24:16] so then on the question

[02:24:18] of how is Dorotea

[02:24:20] and the dream

[02:24:21] and stuff being,

[02:24:23] getting out

[02:24:23] into the sisterhood,

[02:24:25] I,

[02:24:26] I think I talked

[02:24:27] about this last time.

[02:24:28] There's a way

[02:24:29] for sisters

[02:24:30] to transfer memories.

[02:24:32] Basically,

[02:24:33] they sort of

[02:24:34] put their foreheads

[02:24:35] together

[02:24:35] and like you can

[02:24:36] download,

[02:24:37] uh,

[02:24:37] the,

[02:24:38] the other memories

[02:24:38] of another sister

[02:24:40] who's about to die

[02:24:41] or is going into

[02:24:42] a dangerous

[02:24:44] situation.

[02:24:45] So is that,

[02:24:46] which it gets a little

[02:24:47] bit into.

[02:24:47] That would be no.

[02:24:49] I mean,

[02:24:50] I'm saying no

[02:24:50] because like that,

[02:24:52] they don't figure

[02:24:52] that out for

[02:24:53] 10,000 years or so.

[02:24:55] So I would be mad

[02:24:57] if it's that.

[02:24:58] Right.

[02:24:59] So,

[02:24:59] but they're also

[02:25:00] bringing up,

[02:25:01] yeah,

[02:25:01] if we have a face dance

[02:25:02] or if we have goal

[02:25:03] as they're,

[02:25:04] they're doing a lot

[02:25:05] of,

[02:25:05] you know,

[02:25:05] there,

[02:25:06] there's a lot

[02:25:06] of Swiss cheese

[02:25:07] as Jordan says

[02:25:08] into this.

[02:25:09] So really,

[02:25:10] again,

[02:25:11] they,

[02:25:11] they have read

[02:25:12] material

[02:25:13] but are they,

[02:25:14] what do they do?

[02:25:15] How are they recombining

[02:25:16] all of this stuff?

[02:25:17] It's getting really

[02:25:17] confusing for me

[02:25:19] and it's making me

[02:25:20] nervous because

[02:25:20] they're throwing a lot,

[02:25:22] a lot,

[02:25:22] a lot of stuff

[02:25:23] at this story.

[02:25:24] I,

[02:25:25] I,

[02:25:25] I'm going to have

[02:25:25] a hard time

[02:25:26] judging this episode

[02:25:27] until the final

[02:25:28] one airs.

[02:25:29] Right.

[02:25:30] Until it all wraps up.

[02:25:32] Uh,

[02:25:33] I think

[02:25:33] that's it.

[02:25:35] Um,

[02:25:36] other than,

[02:25:37] oh,

[02:25:37] I think the last thing

[02:25:39] like I was saying

[02:25:40] is if Desmond,

[02:25:41] you know,

[02:25:43] is a clone,

[02:25:44] a Gola

[02:25:46] and are the lights,

[02:25:48] are these mechanical lights,

[02:25:49] are they God?

[02:25:51] Because it's,

[02:25:52] it's weird because

[02:25:52] the sisters are,

[02:25:53] are experiencing it

[02:25:54] but Desmond is experiencing it.

[02:25:57] Mm-hmm.

[02:25:57] But is Desmond experiencing

[02:25:59] the,

[02:26:00] the,

[02:26:01] the,

[02:26:01] the medical procedure

[02:26:03] of him being revived

[02:26:04] and are those lights,

[02:26:06] the lights of the operating room

[02:26:08] or something like that

[02:26:09] or of his conditioning.

[02:26:12] There are four lights.

[02:26:14] Sorry,

[02:26:14] I had to do my card again.

[02:26:15] It's not very good.

[02:26:16] Um,

[02:26:17] you know,

[02:26:18] is that,

[02:26:18] is that

[02:26:19] one of those things

[02:26:20] where they're being tricksy?

[02:26:21] Like,

[02:26:22] oh no,

[02:26:22] it really wasn't

[02:26:23] a blue-eyed God,

[02:26:24] you know,

[02:26:24] God emperor

[02:26:25] but it's really,

[02:26:26] he was on the slab

[02:26:27] in the tank,

[02:26:28] in the room

[02:26:29] where he was being grown

[02:26:30] or rebuilt

[02:26:31] and those are the lights

[02:26:32] in the ceiling

[02:26:33] or something like that.

[02:26:34] Yeah.

[02:26:35] So,

[02:26:36] that's my new,

[02:26:37] like,

[02:26:37] oh,

[02:26:37] I hope they don't go

[02:26:38] that direction.

[02:26:41] All right.

[02:26:43] Anything else?

[02:26:44] No,

[02:26:44] I'm just,

[02:26:45] um,

[02:26:46] you know,

[02:26:46] this one has me

[02:26:48] in hold pattern.

[02:26:50] Like,

[02:26:50] I'm not mad at it

[02:26:50] like I was at episode three.

[02:26:53] You were salty last episode.

[02:26:55] yeah,

[02:26:55] I,

[02:26:56] they were just character issues

[02:26:57] that I really have still,

[02:26:59] if I think back on it,

[02:27:00] I'll get mad again.

[02:27:01] But,

[02:27:01] but this episode

[02:27:03] was more like

[02:27:05] on track for me.

[02:27:06] I'm intrigued.

[02:27:07] I am

[02:27:09] eager to see

[02:27:09] how they're going to wrap this up

[02:27:11] in two episodes

[02:27:12] and I feel like

[02:27:12] I'm not going to be able to,

[02:27:14] to really judge

[02:27:15] until it's done.

[02:27:16] Right.

[02:27:16] Oh,

[02:27:17] one other thing about,

[02:27:18] uh,

[02:27:18] I,

[02:27:19] I'm,

[02:27:19] I'm with you,

[02:27:20] I think in large part there.

[02:27:21] Like,

[02:27:22] I'm,

[02:27:22] I'm just sort of

[02:27:22] got my,

[02:27:23] you know,

[02:27:24] I'm biting my fingernails

[02:27:25] and holding on.

[02:27:26] Uh,

[02:27:26] I posted this in the discord.

[02:27:28] There is a scene

[02:27:29] at the episode one

[02:27:30] where Desmond

[02:27:31] is walking

[02:27:32] into the palace

[02:27:33] and he's got a little piece

[02:27:35] of black cloth

[02:27:36] in his hand

[02:27:37] and I grabbed a screenshot

[02:27:38] posted that.

[02:27:39] But it's like,

[02:27:40] somebody pointed out,

[02:27:41] well,

[02:27:41] does,

[02:27:41] how does that play

[02:27:42] into Desmond's origin story

[02:27:43] as to what he is?

[02:27:45] Still waiting on that.

[02:27:46] Yeah,

[02:27:47] exactly.

[02:27:47] Why?

[02:27:47] I thought that it might play

[02:27:49] into how he was doing

[02:27:50] what he's doing,

[02:27:50] but we haven't seen him

[02:27:51] holding or something.

[02:27:53] I don't know.

[02:27:54] Yeah.

[02:27:54] It's hard to say.

[02:27:55] And that,

[02:27:55] that texture of that material

[02:27:57] is really interesting.

[02:27:58] Is that,

[02:27:58] was that just a piece

[02:27:59] of a still suit?

[02:28:00] Yeah.

[02:28:01] Is that a part of a still suit

[02:28:03] or something like that?

[02:28:03] Not sure.

[02:28:05] Anyway,

[02:28:05] we're,

[02:28:06] we're at two and a half hours.

[02:28:07] So I think we're good

[02:28:08] to get out of here.

[02:28:10] I think we did a good job

[02:28:11] considering all of the lore

[02:28:13] that they threw at us.

[02:28:14] It was a long episode.

[02:28:15] It was 104,

[02:28:17] 106 minutes.

[02:28:17] Yeah,

[02:28:18] for sure.

[02:28:18] Okay.

[02:28:19] Two more to go.

[02:28:20] And then we have to think about

[02:28:21] cause the last one's going to be

[02:28:22] coming out right around Christmas time.

[02:28:24] I'll be traveling.

[02:28:25] Are you,

[02:28:25] you're traveling too,

[02:28:26] right?

[02:28:27] Yeah.

[02:28:28] I mean,

[02:28:29] I will be settled on Christmas Eve

[02:28:31] morning,

[02:28:31] but yeah,

[02:28:31] we'll figure it out.

[02:28:32] How will you?

[02:28:33] Yeah.

[02:28:33] We'll figure it out once we both

[02:28:34] get settled.

[02:28:35] Yeah.

[02:28:36] Yeah.

[02:28:36] I'll have my gear with me.

[02:28:37] So,

[02:28:38] okay.

[02:28:38] Thanks Alicia.