John and Marilyn await the woman from the water planet in the latest episode of Foundation.
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00:19 --> 00:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the Lorehounds podcast.
00:21 --> 00:22 [SPEAKER_01]: We're the Lorehounds.
00:22 --> 00:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Your guide's a psycho history.
00:24 --> 00:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm John.
00:25 --> 00:26 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm Maryland.
00:26 --> 00:30 [SPEAKER_02]: This is our coverage of Foundation on Apple TV+.
00:31 --> 00:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Season three episode eight.
00:33 --> 00:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Skin in the game.
00:35 --> 00:38 [SPEAKER_02]: If you want to get in contact with us, send an email.
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00:57 --> 01:03 [SPEAKER_01]: By the way, I put it out as early as I can legally, like they give us a time we can put it out, so that's rarely, it's like a possibly put it out.
01:04 --> 01:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes.
01:05 --> 01:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, check the link tree in the show notes again for our Patreon and Supercast subscriptions.
01:11 --> 01:15 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, Marilyn, what did you think of season three episode eight of foundation?
01:16 --> 01:21 [SPEAKER_02]: We just keep getting there on there on layers and really fascinating bits and pieces.
01:22 --> 01:25 [SPEAKER_02]: And new questions keep rising.
01:25 --> 01:29 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you think something is resolved and then something whoops, no, some new pops up.
01:30 --> 01:31 [SPEAKER_02]: The visuals were stunning.
01:31 --> 01:38 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there was a whole chunk of this that was very deliberately theatrical, but they just went over the top.
01:38 --> 01:40 [SPEAKER_02]: They were practically chewing the scenery.
01:40 --> 01:41 [SPEAKER_02]: It was a lot of fun.
01:42 --> 01:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Just a lot.
01:42 --> 01:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I have some things to say about that too.
01:46 --> 01:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Some are not quite as positive.
01:49 --> 01:50 [SPEAKER_02]: I thought you might.
01:50 --> 01:52 [SPEAKER_02]: I just kind of, you know.
01:53 --> 01:55 [SPEAKER_02]: I sat there with the popcorn and had fun.
01:56 --> 01:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I had to grab my bowl of cereal for a little bit on this episode.
01:59 --> 02:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I can see that.
02:01 --> 02:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I can definitely see that.
02:03 --> 02:10 [SPEAKER_02]: But it was resonating in a lot of tones that are definitely in my wheelhouse, if I can mix my bed of force horribly.
02:12 --> 02:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Fair enough.
02:13 --> 02:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And I love the way that they're approaching these concepts that would show up in both science fiction and fantasy literature, such as this whole question and mental and emotional control of others.
02:25 --> 02:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Because there's this crossover there in comparative possibilities for comparison.
02:30 --> 02:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And as I alluded to, there's a very strong dip into the world of ritual, which is people will know I'm interested in.
02:36 --> 02:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, interpretive dance specifically.
02:38 --> 02:39 [SPEAKER_02]: That's part of it.
02:39 --> 02:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
02:40 --> 02:47 [SPEAKER_02]: No, I honestly say I know that I know that sci-fi people might not really appreciate it too much.
02:50 --> 03:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't have as much of a problem with that more like how much time did they have to prepare this because it seemed like they were incorporating some things that they just learned into the dance.
03:03 --> 03:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, hey, I just feel like this is a very working class neighborhood, right?
03:08 --> 03:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Like how much spare time do we have to go rehearsing the interpretive dance underground?
03:13 --> 03:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, remember, he does, is very careful to point out that nobody rules over anybody and nobody is, you know, existing like to serve other people, y'all, y'all, yes, so.
03:24 --> 03:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
03:25 --> 03:28 [SPEAKER_02]: There may be a whole union of interpretive dancers that
03:30 --> 03:30 [SPEAKER_02]: It's out there.
03:31 --> 03:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Because the dance guild, okay, the interpretive dance guild.
03:34 --> 03:36 [SPEAKER_01]: The dancing dominion, like the cloud dominion, you never know.
03:36 --> 03:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, something like that, something like that.
03:38 --> 03:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Because clearly, these kinds of spiritual mystical religious concepts are very important to the people of my kitchen.
03:48 --> 03:56 [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, why not have a class of interpretive dancers and the theatrical whatever's.
03:58 --> 04:04 [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, we don't know how long it was between the last time, day-less consciousness, and they gathered together their forces.
04:04 --> 04:11 [SPEAKER_02]: But anyway, one of the things I noticed, I invite people to take a close look at the opening credits, yet again.
04:13 --> 04:22 [SPEAKER_02]: And this statue of putting its right fingers on its left forearm, it really caught me attention this time because of the hairstyle of the clearly feminine figure.
04:23 --> 04:27 [SPEAKER_02]: I really convinced that this is songbird, seventeen.
04:28 --> 04:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think you're right.
04:29 --> 04:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I think you're right.
04:29 --> 04:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I think you're right.
04:30 --> 04:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I was looking at it once you said that.
04:31 --> 04:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, Oh, did you?
04:32 --> 04:32 [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
04:33 --> 04:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm with you.
04:33 --> 04:34 [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
04:34 --> 04:35 [SPEAKER_02]: It will cool.
04:35 --> 04:37 [SPEAKER_02]: I was glad when you're with me, John.
04:37 --> 04:38 [SPEAKER_02]: So what did you find?
04:38 --> 04:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
04:40 --> 04:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was, it was a pretty good episode.
04:42 --> 04:44 [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't, it certainly wasn't wowing me.
04:45 --> 04:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Basically any part.
04:47 --> 04:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I was a little, I really, when we had the mule in the air going, oh, I was like, I ain't quite need that shot for that long.
04:56 --> 04:57 [SPEAKER_01]: It was, there's a little.
04:57 --> 04:59 [SPEAKER_02]: I suppose the length was over the top.
05:00 --> 05:10 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a little much and I was like, I kind of don't buy that Harry is this mug in this moment when he literally had to ghost the foundation because he didn't know what to do about them all.
05:11 --> 05:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, he learns pretty quickly this Harry.
05:14 --> 05:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, with a, with a, you know, a vault of holographic mind processor, whatever, um, wouldn't take him too long.
05:24 --> 05:29 [SPEAKER_02]: But I enjoyed that scene very much, except I didn't, what I didn't, it was all the blood trickling from his nose and his mouth and all that stuff.
05:30 --> 05:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I, I think all, uh, that whole scene it was a little over the top for me.
05:34 --> 05:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I, I continue to be a little bit, I roll the at the death star.
05:39 --> 05:40 [SPEAKER_01]: That is brewing.
05:40 --> 05:41 [SPEAKER_02]: I know.
05:41 --> 05:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I know.
05:41 --> 05:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I know.
05:41 --> 05:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not quite a fan of basically this episode kind of had all by least favorite parts of the season.
05:46 --> 05:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
05:47 --> 05:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that makes sense.
05:48 --> 05:48 [SPEAKER_02]: That makes sense.
05:49 --> 05:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And that doesn't mean that I don't think the show is going to wrap up in a really satisfying way.
05:53 --> 05:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I still think we're going right towards a really good finale.
05:56 --> 05:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
05:56 --> 05:59 [SPEAKER_01]: But it really was not my episode.
06:00 --> 06:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
06:01 --> 06:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Even Tim Reseld didn't really get a chance to shine much other than the scene with I know the orchard was was a bit of a scene, but I thought that
06:08 --> 06:10 [SPEAKER_01]: It was so short compared to the rest of the episode.
06:10 --> 06:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought we focused on all the wrong, all the things that I care for less the season.
06:16 --> 06:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
06:16 --> 06:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, they've, they've, she had shorter moments this time.
06:19 --> 06:20 [SPEAKER_02]: It's certainly true.
06:20 --> 06:23 [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, every single one of them, I think, was worth their wait.
06:23 --> 06:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And hopefully, people don't feel that we're spoiling too many things here because I don't know how non-spoiled first part of this.
06:29 --> 06:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no.
06:30 --> 06:33 [SPEAKER_01]: We're always full spoiler from the beginning of this episode.
06:33 --> 06:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
06:33 --> 06:35 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, just a couple of this particular episode.
06:35 --> 06:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, nothing future in the books or in the show.
06:39 --> 06:40 [SPEAKER_01]: We haven't even watched further in the show.
06:40 --> 06:40 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's.
06:41 --> 06:41 [SPEAKER_01]: No, we have not.
06:42 --> 06:43 [SPEAKER_01]: But no, we're okay.
06:44 --> 06:45 [SPEAKER_01]: We're okay.
06:46 --> 06:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I think by now they know that we spoil everything in the hot takes from the episode, from the episode.
06:52 --> 06:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if not, sorry.
06:54 --> 06:55 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what we do.
06:56 --> 07:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, my point is I did really like, you know, like I mentioned the scene in the orchard I did I did really like that although it left me a little confused I'm not really sure what's gonna happen there Me too and that's sort of what I mean right is that the parts that I did like were kind of left a little open ended and a little vague What do make a lot of open endedness?
07:16 --> 07:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, also one of those open ended was finally resolved though and I was very proud of myself for that
07:23 --> 07:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we'll get to that.
07:24 --> 07:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we will get there when we get there.
07:26 --> 07:27 [SPEAKER_01]: You've done my dawn.
07:27 --> 07:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, sir.
07:28 --> 07:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
07:28 --> 07:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
07:29 --> 07:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And the other thing is I'm going to say this for Alicia's sake.
07:33 --> 07:38 [SPEAKER_01]: This is my least favorite kind of cliffhanger is he's literally dropping off the cliff.
07:40 --> 08:04 [SPEAKER_01]: at the end of the day just falling down the shoot and not quite down there anyway I don't want to be too negative because like I still enjoy the episode like I'm not I'm not tuning out and I'm really looking forward to the next episode yeah it just was a lot of setup for me you know Avengers assemble kind of thing with the gale crew and you know I think we're just kind of we were kind of treading water on a lot of hotlines this episode
08:06 --> 08:08 [SPEAKER_02]: set in the stage and you need to do that, right?
08:08 --> 08:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's that is a necessary thing and yet it's never going to be the episode you remember.
08:14 --> 08:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Like this is not going to be the episode that goes down at like the great foundation episode.
08:17 --> 08:20 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a must find that you need episodes like that.
08:20 --> 08:28 [SPEAKER_02]: You're going to remember the shocking climaxes and the great really beautifully realized scenes and the deeply emotional parts and and all that sort of thing.
08:29 --> 08:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And two points off for mentioning Selver Harden and my least favorite character in the whole story.
08:33 --> 08:35 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, go on.
08:35 --> 08:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I mostly do.
08:36 --> 08:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Let us, I know you are.
08:37 --> 08:40 [SPEAKER_02]: I know you are because you're not one to let your biases over Ruler.
08:42 --> 08:45 [SPEAKER_02]: You're just evaluation.
08:45 --> 08:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Truly, everyone knows I am, I am fairer than anyone.
08:48 --> 08:48 [SPEAKER_01]: No.
08:49 --> 08:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I could be Empire.
08:50 --> 08:50 [SPEAKER_01]: No.
08:51 --> 08:53 [SPEAKER_02]: You are just, John, you are just.
08:53 --> 08:56 [SPEAKER_02]: And if you're not being just, then you admit it right up front.
08:57 --> 08:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I try to, I try to.
08:59 --> 09:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I keep my hot takes very obvious.
09:02 --> 09:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
09:02 --> 09:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
09:03 --> 09:03 [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
09:03 --> 09:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, enough of my hot takes, you know, again, I don't want to bring us down here because I did really like, I do still really like the show and I thought this was a really set up episode.
09:13 --> 09:15 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's get set up here.
09:16 --> 09:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Harry and the Mule.
09:17 --> 09:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Harry continues to doubt the veracity of the Mule's backstory on Rossum.
09:21 --> 09:29 [SPEAKER_01]: The Mule tries to intimidate the psycho historian, but is promptly lifted into the air and almost killed before Harry releases him.
09:30 --> 09:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Harry says once he finds out the Mule's secret, the Mule may be of use to him.
09:34 --> 09:37 [SPEAKER_01]: The Mule returns to Scarlet and shows her.
09:38 --> 09:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Gales facial beads and tells her he will have her soon.
09:43 --> 09:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so there was one check off right there.
09:45 --> 09:49 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, people wondered what was in Gale's pouch and now it is revealed.
09:50 --> 09:54 [SPEAKER_02]: So five points to the houses of all the people who guessed that.
09:55 --> 09:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the facial beads super fun.
09:57 --> 09:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
09:58 --> 09:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Nice call back.
10:00 --> 10:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
10:00 --> 10:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
10:02 --> 10:06 [SPEAKER_02]: So the great convoy continues between Paris and the Viking meal.
10:07 --> 10:12 [SPEAKER_02]: And they're little bits and pieces that are thrown in here that's useful to me like it's been three hundred years since he died.
10:14 --> 10:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And so he also says he's never dictated to the foundation.
10:18 --> 10:27 [SPEAKER_02]: So he personally should not be held responsible for any of its oppressive actions when the meal is there trying to be judged during execution here on him.
10:27 --> 10:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't I don't buy that by the way.
10:33 --> 10:34 [SPEAKER_01]: If what happened to them, you'll assume.
10:35 --> 10:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, this plan is like Harry should accept some level of responsibility for the suffering that the foundation causes, because it's his plan.
10:45 --> 10:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Even if the foundation is not the first foundation is not quite aware of it, this is the intention, right?
10:50 --> 10:52 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the plan is to have it go through a tyrannical stage.
10:55 --> 10:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, authoritarian at any rate.
10:58 --> 10:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
11:00 --> 11:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And what do all the autocracies usually do?
11:02 --> 11:04 [SPEAKER_01]: They usually write better down the little people.
11:05 --> 11:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not saying that it's not for a quote unquote the greater good in the end.
11:09 --> 11:14 [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't think he can skirt responsibility for what happens either.
11:14 --> 11:17 [SPEAKER_01]: The foundation doesn't exist without him, right?
11:18 --> 11:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Certainly.
11:19 --> 11:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And this phase of foundation also does not exist without him.
11:25 --> 11:32 [SPEAKER_02]: I suppose one could ask the same question, are you going to feel responsible for the behavior of your children when they're in their thirties and thirties?
11:33 --> 11:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if I told them what they needed to do, or if I at least predict it out what they needed to do, and I set up a second group of people that were making sure that they kept doing what I wanted them to do.
11:43 --> 11:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And yes, I would still be responsible.
11:45 --> 11:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And you would never do any of those things.
11:47 --> 11:50 [SPEAKER_01]: But you get what I'm saying is like, it's not, it's not a compliment.
11:50 --> 11:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I understand.
11:50 --> 11:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I understand.
11:51 --> 11:51 [SPEAKER_02]: I understand.
11:54 --> 11:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
11:55 --> 12:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and they, you know, their cousins make sure that they, they need on my path, right?
12:02 --> 12:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's always comforting if we can play with someone personally instead of, um, you know,
12:07 --> 12:10 [SPEAKER_02]: institutions or whatever, although that's the different kind of thing about that.
12:10 --> 12:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, but I just mean, like, I don't think that I don't really buy Harry's.
12:14 --> 12:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, don't know.
12:16 --> 12:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't look at me.
12:17 --> 12:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I have nothing to do with this.
12:18 --> 12:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, do you have a lot to do with it?
12:21 --> 12:23 [SPEAKER_02]: He set things up initially in a certain way.
12:24 --> 12:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we have to be careful that predicting that something will happen is not the same thing as causing it to happen.
12:34 --> 12:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And again, we have, we do have this second foundation.
12:37 --> 12:47 [SPEAKER_01]: We do have a, you know, this, a very carefully picked set of people who move into the first foundation, right?
12:47 --> 12:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Like this is, again, that he did, poke history with a larger group of people to try to nudism in the right direction.
13:01 --> 13:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it was interesting that they get into this whole kind of test about who suffered more in their childhood years.
13:09 --> 13:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's always helpful.
13:10 --> 13:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
13:11 --> 13:21 [SPEAKER_02]: He explained that he also experienced what was like when the resources that this planet was providing to the Empire were less than the quota.
13:21 --> 13:22 [SPEAKER_02]: So he
13:23 --> 13:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe he's trying to relate to the meal in some level, but then he also says things like, bloating is soft sand.
13:30 --> 13:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And not the reason why you came.
13:33 --> 13:42 [SPEAKER_02]: So again, he's going down two or three layers and you know, okay, get the emotional steam blown and then now let's get down to brass text.
13:43 --> 13:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Tell me why you're really here.
13:46 --> 13:52 [SPEAKER_02]: What I found interesting is that he actually says that the meal took over, he would hasten the path to a better future.
13:53 --> 14:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think if you press Harry Moore, I first of all, I think Harry knows that whatever he says here, the meal is gonna do what the meal is gonna do.
14:01 --> 14:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course.
14:02 --> 14:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And the second part is, of course, yeah, it's possible that the meal unites the galaxy for a while.
14:09 --> 14:10 [SPEAKER_02]: In opposite.
14:10 --> 14:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't do him.
14:11 --> 14:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
14:12 --> 14:15 [SPEAKER_01]: But does that mean that he can sustain an empire?
14:15 --> 14:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Because that's something that you see with a lot of revolutions is sure you can overthrow the government.
14:20 --> 14:21 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
14:21 --> 14:22 [SPEAKER_01]: But can you run your own government?
14:22 --> 14:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Because those are two different sets of skills.
14:24 --> 14:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I think that maybe one of Harry's subtext messages is no empire lasts forever.
14:31 --> 14:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's right.
14:32 --> 14:37 [SPEAKER_02]: So maybe that's another reason why he's saying, I'm not personally responsible here.
14:37 --> 14:50 [SPEAKER_02]: This is part of large forces that no one person can possibly direct with any kind of assurance because it's still mathematical predictions.
14:51 --> 14:54 [SPEAKER_02]: and you can go to nine and a point nine and a percent that doesn't mean.
14:54 --> 14:56 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, it's interesting.
14:56 --> 15:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if there were ever a hundred percent certainty prediction in any of Psycho History stuff.
15:04 --> 15:12 [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, as you say, I think Meals is going to do what the Meals is going to do, and he uses his usual go-to, which is to reach out with his mind powers.
15:13 --> 15:15 [SPEAKER_02]: And again, Harry gets the wonderful lines.
15:17 --> 15:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Look at you fumbling away in the dark trying to find my mind.
15:21 --> 15:24 [SPEAKER_02]: But he doesn't have feelings, and so the meals attempts don't work.
15:24 --> 15:26 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's an interesting thing.
15:27 --> 15:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Seems to be milk can only get to thoughts through feelings.
15:32 --> 15:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's probably part of it, but also we knew that Gail couldn't get through to Demosel.
15:39 --> 15:47 [SPEAKER_01]: So we knew that the robots were immune to these metallic powers, and seems to be true also with whatever Harry is, whatever Harry is.
15:47 --> 15:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
15:47 --> 15:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
15:48 --> 15:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I know there's been so much in us to how different our vault Harry and Demorselle.
15:53 --> 15:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not totally sure.
15:55 --> 15:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:56 --> 16:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And yet there seems to be the possibility of at least Harry reading the Mules mind.
16:03 --> 16:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I think he's just smart.
16:04 --> 16:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that was just that was just metro calculation.
16:07 --> 16:11 [SPEAKER_01]: As soon as the Mules put on is like, try hard face.
16:11 --> 16:12 [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, ah, you're trying to get my head.
16:14 --> 16:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and they give the impression that, you know,
16:18 --> 16:22 [SPEAKER_02]: as a vault, a holograph, he could read vibrations.
16:22 --> 16:24 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, he knew instantly that the thermos all wasn't human, for example.
16:24 --> 16:33 [SPEAKER_02]: So he can feel whatever it is that is the effect of the meal reaching out to trying to probe his secrets.
16:35 --> 16:38 [SPEAKER_02]: And yet it was, how are he who says to him, do you have a secret?
16:39 --> 16:42 [SPEAKER_02]: And once I know what it is, you may be if you're stupid.
16:44 --> 16:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And I suspect that both of you and I have a notion of what that's secret might be.
16:48 --> 16:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I think so, although this episode made me doubt it a little bit, but not only.
16:51 --> 16:51 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
16:52 --> 16:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
16:52 --> 16:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Not fully.
16:53 --> 16:55 [SPEAKER_01]: We can maybe discuss after credit for a minute.
16:56 --> 16:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
16:57 --> 17:01 [SPEAKER_02]: And I just, it's interesting that he could kill them.
17:01 --> 17:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody does it.
17:03 --> 17:04 [SPEAKER_02]: He chooses not to.
17:06 --> 17:12 [SPEAKER_02]: So even though he had not predicted the meal and didn't know what the meal was when they first started telling him about the outside.
17:13 --> 17:13 [SPEAKER_02]: What about the meal?
17:13 --> 17:15 [SPEAKER_02]: He's like, what's the meal?
17:15 --> 17:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
17:16 --> 17:25 [SPEAKER_02]: He must have done a real quick study over caught up on the, you know, speedless and two recent broadcasts of the galactic news or whatever.
17:26 --> 17:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
17:27 --> 17:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Figure it out.
17:28 --> 17:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, be my radio.
17:30 --> 17:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, really.
17:31 --> 17:33 [SPEAKER_02]: How come nobody put so many headlines?
17:36 --> 17:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, maybe he should stop only poking his head out every fifty years or so.
17:40 --> 17:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, what's it to a hazard story?
17:42 --> 17:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, a hundred hundred fifty.
17:43 --> 17:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's long stretches.
17:45 --> 17:52 [SPEAKER_02]: It takes people time to tear down one form of government and build up another one.
17:52 --> 17:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
17:52 --> 17:54 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not unless you have a meal.
17:54 --> 17:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't take very very much time to tear down a form of government then.
17:57 --> 17:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, if you wanted to last.
18:00 --> 18:01 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see.
18:01 --> 18:02 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll see.
18:02 --> 18:03 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see what he does.
18:03 --> 18:06 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think about his conversation with Scarlet?
18:09 --> 18:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I find it interesting that he refers to Gale as the girl from the water planet.
18:15 --> 18:18 [SPEAKER_02]: This dude really has an obsession with water.
18:19 --> 18:24 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, all the drownings that we talked about in the previous episode of our popcast.
18:26 --> 18:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, he is the actor who played you were on Greyjoy and Game of Thrones, and I don't know how much you know about that world.
18:32 --> 18:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Was he one who was drowned?
18:34 --> 18:35 [SPEAKER_01]: He was the drowned king.
18:35 --> 18:38 [SPEAKER_01]: You, you, you survive a drowning.
18:38 --> 18:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Become the Iron Isles.
18:40 --> 18:40 [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
18:40 --> 18:43 [SPEAKER_02]: I vaguely remember bits and pieces, so.
18:44 --> 18:46 [SPEAKER_02]: That is kind of an ironic cast around the god.
18:46 --> 18:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
18:47 --> 18:49 [SPEAKER_02]: But he certainly seems to be able to handle this part.
18:49 --> 18:52 [SPEAKER_02]: One wonders what Scarlet is supposed to do with he's
18:54 --> 18:55 [SPEAKER_02]: little stones.
18:55 --> 18:57 [SPEAKER_02]: They're not setting anything in particular.
18:57 --> 18:58 [SPEAKER_02]: She can't eat them.
18:58 --> 18:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought we took them back.
18:59 --> 19:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, did you take them back?
19:00 --> 19:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I think they took them back at the end and put them back on the pouch.
19:02 --> 19:03 [SPEAKER_02]: That makes more sense.
19:03 --> 19:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:04 --> 19:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:04 --> 19:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Then he swapped it out for a candy.
19:05 --> 19:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Remember?
19:06 --> 19:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
19:07 --> 19:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:08 --> 19:09 [SPEAKER_02]: So why did he show them to where the first place?
19:11 --> 19:13 [SPEAKER_01]: He just uses her for the exposition.
19:13 --> 19:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
19:14 --> 19:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Each of you, Marilyn.
19:15 --> 19:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:17 --> 19:18 [SPEAKER_01]: This is just an exposition dump.
19:20 --> 19:20 [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
19:20 --> 19:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's go to dusk and demo cell.
19:22 --> 19:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's
19:23 --> 19:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Dusk mourns his brother, Don, with Quint, who reaffirms his individuality.
19:28 --> 19:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Presider Kin from the Galactic Council arrives with Zephyr Vorellus and enjoying her barrel from the Cloud Dominion to give Dusk a polite notice that they will be profiting, crant or to the mule as an inactive appeasement.
19:41 --> 19:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Dusk and Demresel refused to accept it and Dusk finally reveals the Novakula.
19:50 --> 19:50 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
19:51 --> 19:53 [SPEAKER_01]: It's amazing that Target was able to make two of these.
19:54 --> 19:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Three of them.
19:56 --> 19:57 [SPEAKER_01]: No, because he wasn't around for the second bell star.
19:58 --> 19:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
19:58 --> 20:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Which, which you have the blue prints.
20:00 --> 20:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
20:02 --> 20:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
20:02 --> 20:05 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really, it's really all logistics and supply chains from there.
20:06 --> 20:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, basically, yeah, even though you're, um, archive copy of the blue prints was stolen.
20:13 --> 20:17 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's, it's got to be available in other servers and other.
20:17 --> 20:18 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, how could,
20:19 --> 20:26 [SPEAKER_02]: As we know, the sort of bottom line nowadays is the minute you put anything online, somebody can find it somehow if they really want to.
20:26 --> 20:27 [SPEAKER_01]: That's true.
20:27 --> 20:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe to resolve that particular quandary.
20:30 --> 20:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, Star Wars Star Wars.
20:32 --> 20:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Star Wars jokes aside, I think we've got a lot together here.
20:37 --> 20:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really interesting to watch Quint bring in the foundation philosophy.
20:42 --> 20:51 [SPEAKER_01]: It felt very much like speaking to a, like a group of Christians who are debating predestination versus free will, right?
20:51 --> 21:03 [SPEAKER_01]: It almost felt like Tolkien's idea of the universe of like, hey, individuals can't affect the grand plan, but it matters what the individual does to that individual and to their
21:04 --> 21:06 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they're close by individual.
21:06 --> 21:06 [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
21:06 --> 21:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Feel very token to me.
21:08 --> 21:13 [SPEAKER_01]: This whole exposition on the foundation philosophy.
21:14 --> 21:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that's a good catch.
21:15 --> 21:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think there is a sense in which Tolkien might express it as, you know, there is a plan and individuals are required to carry out that plan.
21:31 --> 21:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And if one individual fails to carry it up, then another one will eventually come along to take their place.
21:38 --> 21:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
21:38 --> 21:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
21:39 --> 21:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I just mean that you're not going to stop the grand plan by deviating from it, but you may change your own outcome, and you may change the outcomes of those around you.
21:53 --> 21:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and that's pretty much what Quint says isn't right person to the person.
21:56 --> 22:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I was raised to believe it in individuals can't affect the future, but I know we affect each other.
22:03 --> 22:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And she went really doctors who's about it, right?
22:05 --> 22:08 [SPEAKER_01]: A person's a person no matter how small.
22:08 --> 22:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's a lot of reference to two other writings in this particular episode.
22:14 --> 22:15 [SPEAKER_02]: I've mentioned one or two, I think.
22:17 --> 22:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so prior to this, of course, Demiselle had confirmed to dusk that Dawn is dead, though I still didn't believe it.
22:28 --> 22:34 [SPEAKER_02]: And I love dusk reflection that we're supposed to be interchangeable and it just isn't too anymore.
22:35 --> 22:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And she responds, I doubt it ever was.
22:37 --> 22:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
22:38 --> 22:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Which kind of tracks along a little bit of a saying before about as soon as you assign a number to a rain, you're distinguishing.
22:47 --> 22:54 [SPEAKER_02]: And sooner or later, people will, you know, people's reactions to you as well as your own thoughts about your whole situation.
22:54 --> 22:56 [SPEAKER_02]: You're going to start individuating.
22:56 --> 22:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
22:56 --> 23:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So the conciliator, right, he had his own moniker already.
23:01 --> 23:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
23:02 --> 23:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
23:03 --> 23:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
23:03 --> 23:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And yet, when they'll three other factions within the galaxy come and say, we want to conciliate.
23:10 --> 23:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I do really like that they use it against them, right?
23:13 --> 23:21 [SPEAKER_01]: This ambush of leaders comes in and that ambushes him and says, well, you worked, so later, conciliate.
23:22 --> 23:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
23:24 --> 23:25 [SPEAKER_02]: And ambushes in very good word for it.
23:25 --> 23:29 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, again, talk about the fall of the power of the triple throne.
23:29 --> 23:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And they even say, the middle throne is empty.
23:32 --> 23:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
23:33 --> 23:35 [SPEAKER_02]: So who are you to say, you know, empire?
23:35 --> 23:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, it's, and you're going to be, does it in three days?
23:40 --> 23:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I know.
23:40 --> 23:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm, I'm like, I got such a busy week ahead of me.
23:44 --> 23:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I got into can't do new plans.
23:48 --> 23:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
23:50 --> 23:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
23:51 --> 23:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I didn't write it into the in to the summary, but yeah, that was one of the things.
23:55 --> 23:59 [SPEAKER_01]: That was why he does show Demosal the novacular, right?
23:59 --> 24:01 [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, we don't have time to dig into you.
24:02 --> 24:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Dawn and day, we need to we need a weapon right now.
24:06 --> 24:11 [SPEAKER_02]: And by the way, he was astounded that she hadn't already known about it.
24:11 --> 24:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I really liked that.
24:12 --> 24:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I really liked that.
24:13 --> 24:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
24:14 --> 24:17 [SPEAKER_01]: He genuinely thought there's no way she doesn't know about this.
24:18 --> 24:24 [SPEAKER_02]: which again reveals both the power of her image in the minds of Empire.
24:24 --> 24:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
24:25 --> 24:31 [SPEAKER_02]: But it also reveals that, yeah, even Demosal is not all seeing all knowing all powerful.
24:32 --> 24:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
24:33 --> 24:35 [SPEAKER_02]: So it was a very interesting moment.
24:35 --> 24:42 [SPEAKER_02]: I think Demosal may feel some betrayal that her counselor thinks that this is a good solution.
24:43 --> 24:44 [SPEAKER_02]: And that, in fact, it was
24:46 --> 24:51 [SPEAKER_02]: The luminous coming in on it that swayed the decision for the other two folks.
24:51 --> 24:52 [SPEAKER_02]: And so on.
24:52 --> 24:53 [SPEAKER_02]: And so on.
24:53 --> 25:00 [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I got to say, Viralus is moral philosophy that she cites this, you know, justification.
25:01 --> 25:06 [SPEAKER_02]: That basically boils down to the go to the many ways over the go to the field.
25:07 --> 25:08 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm thinking, yeah, thank you, Mr. Spock.
25:09 --> 25:17 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's, um, it's an interesting philosophy and again, can be used to justify any matter of behaviors.
25:18 --> 25:29 [SPEAKER_02]: So, right, I'm not sure you can play moral purity for it, um, philosophically, it makes sense, but then you get into a whole another category of discussion.
25:31 --> 25:33 [SPEAKER_01]: We know appeasement has always worked.
25:34 --> 25:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah.
25:36 --> 25:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I was sarcasm.
25:37 --> 25:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Talk to the British.
25:38 --> 25:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't work.
25:39 --> 25:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I know Chamberlain would like to have a word with me.
25:43 --> 25:48 [SPEAKER_02]: And yet, you know, it's true when Ferrellis says to Quint.
25:49 --> 25:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, Frank Sinnis says, look, you can't appease this guy.
25:52 --> 25:54 [SPEAKER_02]: His appetite is insatiable.
25:54 --> 26:00 [SPEAKER_02]: And Quest says, but the foundation has done it for hundreds of years now, and it's brought prosperity and so on.
26:01 --> 26:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Another example of the way in Mitch the Mule is an outlier.
26:06 --> 26:06 [SPEAKER_02]: He's a sport.
26:06 --> 26:08 [SPEAKER_02]: He's a completely unpredictable quantity.
26:10 --> 26:14 [SPEAKER_02]: And so all of the previous ways of working aren't going to work much anywhere.
26:14 --> 26:17 [SPEAKER_02]: And it says that's true of any society as it moves along.
26:17 --> 26:25 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you knew ages bring new problems and even when you think you solve things, there's going to continue to be complications.
26:25 --> 26:30 [SPEAKER_02]: So the notion that you can solve everything once and for all is anytime anybody is trying to sell that.
26:31 --> 26:36 [SPEAKER_02]: I smell politely and look for the nearest exit because I just don't see it.
26:37 --> 26:38 [SPEAKER_02]: I just don't see it.
26:40 --> 26:45 [SPEAKER_02]: It is kind of poignant that he started work on the devacular, the minute he became dusk.
26:47 --> 26:52 [SPEAKER_02]: And intended it as a gift for Dawn when he ascends to the middle throne.
26:52 --> 26:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Because he immediately thought, you know, the present day is just not worth anything.
26:58 --> 27:03 [SPEAKER_02]: And I've got to do something to help the current Dawn who will eventually be day.
27:04 --> 27:13 [SPEAKER_02]: and give him something that will kind of re-sullitify whatever power has been slipping away because the middle throne is basically checked out.
27:14 --> 27:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Brother dude, have you seen that that's what people are calling him on Reddit?
27:18 --> 27:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd rather do it.
27:19 --> 27:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, yeah, no.
27:20 --> 27:21 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm not mentioning it.
27:21 --> 27:22 [SPEAKER_02]: That makes sense.
27:23 --> 27:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
27:24 --> 27:30 [SPEAKER_02]: And he's really crushed when Denver Zell tells him that Dawn has become an ally with Gale on the second foundation.
27:31 --> 27:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
27:33 --> 27:35 [SPEAKER_01]: You could tell he also doesn't fully believe her.
27:35 --> 27:41 [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, I mean, he kind of questions it himself, but I think he's like, there's more than the story there.
27:42 --> 27:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And there is more than the story, right?
27:43 --> 27:44 [SPEAKER_02]: There is definitely more than the story.
27:45 --> 27:47 [SPEAKER_01]: He's not against empire.
27:47 --> 27:49 [SPEAKER_01]: He is just pro human life.
27:50 --> 27:51 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
27:51 --> 27:51 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
27:51 --> 27:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
27:52 --> 27:58 [SPEAKER_02]: And when he says to her, it's just us now, Demo Zell, our legacy is being ripped from our hands.
27:58 --> 27:59 [SPEAKER_02]: We must not let it go.
27:59 --> 28:09 [SPEAKER_02]: There's a beautiful gentle statement of the Empire theme there, which to me brings more of the point and see to the whole situation.
28:11 --> 28:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And all of the existential questions, you know, if Empire goes away, what happens to Demo Zell?
28:17 --> 28:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
28:18 --> 28:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And music is going to tie us to demos all's fate later.
28:22 --> 28:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that is.
28:22 --> 28:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's a great use.
28:24 --> 28:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that is.
28:25 --> 28:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
28:26 --> 28:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Which I will say, you called that in a previous episode.
28:30 --> 28:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I might have been last episode.
28:32 --> 28:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I did.
28:34 --> 28:38 [SPEAKER_02]: I did because I recognized they had given it to us in that same episode.
28:39 --> 28:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
28:39 --> 28:42 [SPEAKER_02]: From based childhood memories and I said, that's the same melody.
28:42 --> 28:44 [SPEAKER_02]: So what?
28:45 --> 28:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
28:46 --> 28:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
28:47 --> 28:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Any other thoughts on this set of scenes?
28:50 --> 28:51 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's it.
28:51 --> 28:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about the orchard.
28:53 --> 28:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's go to the orchard.
28:54 --> 28:56 [SPEAKER_02]: But not check off.
28:56 --> 29:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, not check off's orchard.
29:00 --> 29:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's take a quick break before we figure out what metaphor we're mixing.
29:24 --> 29:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back, and we're ready to talk about the orchard.
29:27 --> 29:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Demrezel meets one more time, probably, with Zefer Vorellis, who offers her sanctuary with the luminous.
29:36 --> 29:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Demrezel refuses removing her luminous bracelet and lamenting what she must do to another luminous priestess.
29:45 --> 29:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And I say another not in addition to Zefer Vorelle.
29:47 --> 29:48 [SPEAKER_01]: It's I freeze that a little poorly.
29:49 --> 29:52 [SPEAKER_01]: But she had to do something to some luminous priestess in the past.
29:53 --> 29:54 [SPEAKER_01]: She doesn't want to do it again.
29:54 --> 29:55 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what she's saying.
29:55 --> 29:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
29:56 --> 29:56 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
29:56 --> 29:57 [SPEAKER_02]: That was back in season two.
29:58 --> 29:59 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's very.
29:59 --> 30:00 [SPEAKER_02]: It's very.
30:01 --> 30:01 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
30:02 --> 30:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I thought at first that meant, all right, where the death is going to happen off stage or whatever, which maybe it's still a little.
30:07 --> 30:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
30:10 --> 30:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was going to happen right there.
30:11 --> 30:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I thought.
30:11 --> 30:12 [SPEAKER_02]: I do too.
30:12 --> 30:13 [SPEAKER_02]: And that was just a two.
30:14 --> 30:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
30:15 --> 30:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And I, first thing she says, she gave me one of your boys and apples.
30:22 --> 30:26 [SPEAKER_02]: And Demiselle, sure, is her that she is not even considering feeding your one of them.
30:27 --> 30:30 [SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, Varellis, I mean, she doesn't even fight back.
30:30 --> 30:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And I like that in the world building because what would she do?
30:34 --> 30:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Right?
30:34 --> 30:36 [SPEAKER_01]: She can't fight it off a robot.
30:36 --> 30:38 [SPEAKER_01]: If that robot decides she's going to die, she's going to die.
30:39 --> 30:41 [SPEAKER_02]: But does Ferrell us know that Denver's else?
30:42 --> 30:42 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's right, Denver's.
30:42 --> 30:44 [SPEAKER_01]: At that moment, yes, because she's in her memory.
30:44 --> 30:46 [SPEAKER_02]: In the context of the orchard.
30:47 --> 30:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
30:48 --> 30:50 [SPEAKER_02]: She knows that outside the orchard who knows.
30:51 --> 30:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
30:52 --> 30:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Where they're not, she would even, again, would she even try to fight off, but doesn't seem to me as so that would be sort of the past.
30:59 --> 31:00 [SPEAKER_01]: It's undignified.
31:00 --> 31:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Who knows?
31:01 --> 31:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's just us.
31:03 --> 31:04 [SPEAKER_02]: But I think there's other things too.
31:04 --> 31:08 [SPEAKER_02]: I found it really sad and moving and almost shocking.
31:09 --> 31:11 [SPEAKER_02]: when Demiselt takes her bracelet off.
31:13 --> 31:17 [SPEAKER_02]: It was, because that, we've seen in previous seasons.
31:18 --> 31:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And it seemed like such a core part of her personality.
31:21 --> 31:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
31:21 --> 31:28 [SPEAKER_02]: She'll actually, in difficult times, she holds the salt crystal that's hanging from that bracelet.
31:28 --> 31:38 [SPEAKER_02]: And she had initially brought in for real us because she was feeling what we could call a religious crisis or spiritual crisis of
31:39 --> 31:46 [SPEAKER_02]: which is largely more largely an existential crisis of who am I if there's no more empire.
31:49 --> 32:04 [SPEAKER_02]: But evidently, none of her relatives, responses, assurances, et cetera were sufficient for her because she'd rather dramatically states than previous episode.
32:05 --> 32:05 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not human.
32:06 --> 32:08 [SPEAKER_02]: So all the things you're saying just don't apply to me.
32:09 --> 32:12 [SPEAKER_02]: So, I don't know, it's just very sad.
32:14 --> 32:21 [SPEAKER_02]: And this time, I realized that there's all these women going around holding their arms into specific positions.
32:21 --> 32:25 [SPEAKER_02]: I talked about the two fingers on the arm that Songbird showed us.
32:26 --> 32:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Vorel says, always welcome her around with her right hand, clasped over her left wrist.
32:32 --> 32:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Which is interesting.
32:33 --> 32:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
32:34 --> 32:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And she's holding her.
32:36 --> 32:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Is she holding her bracelet?
32:38 --> 32:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Is there a bracelet she's wearing and holding?
32:40 --> 32:41 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think she has bracelets.
32:42 --> 32:43 [SPEAKER_02]: I just think she's holding the left wrist.
32:43 --> 33:03 [SPEAKER_02]: And then Demerzel, of course, his famous role is having her hands in the same position, you know, over her diaphragm and I think like she said it's a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a,
33:04 --> 33:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Fill up your diaphragm.
33:06 --> 33:06 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
33:06 --> 33:08 [SPEAKER_02]: You feel your diaphragm moving up and down.
33:08 --> 33:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
33:09 --> 33:14 [SPEAKER_02]: But interesting that for us, tell us, the luminous are not passive players in this.
33:14 --> 33:15 [SPEAKER_02]: We have power.
33:17 --> 33:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, is it the power of a religion that has tens of millions of followers throughout the galaxy?
33:26 --> 33:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, when has never had the impression that this is a warlike religion?
33:31 --> 33:31 [SPEAKER_01]: No.
33:32 --> 33:34 [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, I wondered what
33:35 --> 33:37 [SPEAKER_02]: what she might have been thinking about there.
33:38 --> 33:44 [SPEAKER_02]: And again, so sad, Demer Zell says, I've enjoyed our time together, almost like friendship.
33:45 --> 33:47 [SPEAKER_02]: I was foolish to think the mother could hold me in her arms.
33:48 --> 33:52 [SPEAKER_02]: So where are these desires coming from in the positronic brain?
33:54 --> 33:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, if all right, so now we know Stiniel, right?
33:57 --> 33:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And I will tell you that
33:59 --> 34:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Daniel in the books in the robot books.
34:01 --> 34:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I read a couple of books with Daniel in it.
34:02 --> 34:21 [SPEAKER_01]: He was made specifically by the spacers to fit in with earth lightens to feel earth feelings and to be able to you know have earthy earth reactions to not be I guess this has been let go of by this time maybe in the books.
34:21 --> 34:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't read this part in the books, but but definitely in the show.
34:29 --> 34:35 [SPEAKER_01]: everything to humans just to fit in more, right, to not accidentally like not blink or something like that, right?
34:35 --> 34:36 [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
34:36 --> 34:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I do think that if you design a robot like that, you know, what's what's more human than believing in something?
34:44 --> 34:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
34:45 --> 34:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
34:45 --> 34:48 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, or a feeling grief that you can't have what you want.
34:49 --> 34:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
34:49 --> 34:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, there's one more power I'm thinking of now that that Daniel was positive with.
34:54 --> 34:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And if you feel as a spoiler, we'll just go ahead and edit it out.
34:57 --> 35:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I do think that that particular thing is I know what you're going to say from last time.
35:02 --> 35:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I think after the after the credits, I don't think we could talk about any of Daniel's stuff from the foundation books.
35:10 --> 35:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Really?
35:10 --> 35:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
35:11 --> 35:13 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll be bringing it up again today after the.
35:13 --> 35:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let's talk about it after the credits.
35:16 --> 35:25 [SPEAKER_01]: But I just wanted to bring in some of the deep past from the robot books, which may not even be true with this because we're so far from the books at this point.
35:25 --> 35:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, Daniel was a mail robot, right?
35:28 --> 35:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And clearly, the plot lines don't work the same way with a mail robot and I'm glad that they made Daniel de Merzel a female robot in the show because I think it tells a different story.
35:41 --> 35:41 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
35:41 --> 35:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I'm questionally, and brings in a lot of other things.
35:45 --> 35:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Luminism and the mother and all that sort of thing.
35:51 --> 35:58 [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, Demiselle calls herself the Empire's pale reaper and nothing can change that.
35:58 --> 36:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, doesn't that sound like, that's pretty awesome with him at death sentence.
36:03 --> 36:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
36:03 --> 36:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
36:04 --> 36:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And Varela certainly looks as though she thinks that it's a death sentence when she's like, man, I put my foot in it again.
36:12 --> 36:14 [SPEAKER_02]: That truth tell us stuff.
36:14 --> 36:16 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's really rough sometimes.
36:17 --> 36:24 [SPEAKER_02]: But then we see her walking through that sort of path with the floating humming computer balls.
36:26 --> 36:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And she comes out the other side of a quarter of him.
36:30 --> 36:33 [SPEAKER_02]: and then ask lady dimmerzo why she'd been crying.
36:34 --> 36:35 [SPEAKER_02]: So, I don't know.
36:36 --> 36:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Didn't look terribly deadly to me in that particular time.
36:39 --> 36:43 [SPEAKER_02]: She seems to remember who she is and who dimmerzo is and all these other things, just not what happened in the garden.
36:44 --> 36:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Of course we know from season two that dimmerzo could already have risen during when she touched her.
36:49 --> 36:53 [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, hard to say.
36:53 --> 36:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep, who knows?
36:55 --> 36:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Say.
36:56 --> 36:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think they're going to pull the same move though.
36:57 --> 36:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think they're going to pull the same thing.
36:59 --> 37:08 [SPEAKER_02]: It would be disappointing if they did quite frankly, but it seems to be falling in line with the fact, for example, that instead of killing Songbird, she just wiped her memories and sent her back to Michael Jens.
37:08 --> 37:14 [SPEAKER_02]: So maybe wipe the paralysis memories and send her back to, you know, the maiden.
37:16 --> 37:22 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if the luminous currently on transorg and light that very much, not to mention the ten million if you're the galaxy.
37:24 --> 37:25 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, one problem in a time, right?
37:26 --> 37:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
37:28 --> 37:29 [SPEAKER_01]: That's probably true.
37:29 --> 37:32 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not going to like any of their people being messed with.
37:35 --> 37:35 [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
37:35 --> 37:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's talk about the captives.
37:39 --> 37:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's.
37:40 --> 37:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Don Awaken's injured and captive with beta.
37:45 --> 37:54 [SPEAKER_01]: He floated for days outside Clarence Station and his suit consumed parts of his legs to maintain life support until the mules scouts found him.
37:55 --> 37:58 [SPEAKER_01]: The Mule arrives and tries to learn the location of the second foundation.
37:58 --> 38:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Upon learning that Dawn doesn't know, he begins to torture Dawn until beta intercedes, telling him it's time to leave.
38:06 --> 38:09 [SPEAKER_01]: The Mule agrees as Gale Dornick has arrived.
38:15 --> 38:17 [SPEAKER_02]: I thought that Don still had to be alive.
38:18 --> 38:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
38:19 --> 38:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, we're in the, the stage of television where nobody no doubt that that's right.
38:25 --> 38:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
38:26 --> 38:28 [SPEAKER_02]: That that has been brought up a number of times.
38:28 --> 38:34 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think in this as it was, it wasn't quite as clear.
38:34 --> 38:39 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think some people's faith was shaken by the fact that Deborah Zell herself believed that Tom is dead.
38:39 --> 38:40 [SPEAKER_02]: And it is kind of interesting.
38:41 --> 38:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Again, is this one more slip on her part?
38:44 --> 38:53 [SPEAKER_02]: And they brought him to New Terminus and put him in the same sick bay as Beta who was more or less recovered from her encounter with a no-field.
38:54 --> 39:00 [SPEAKER_02]: All of her faculties are well less intact, although it still hurts her to think too much, which is, you know, sad.
39:01 --> 39:05 [SPEAKER_02]: And can I just say the thought of surviving by cannibalizing your legs is just gross?
39:06 --> 39:07 [SPEAKER_02]: even if you're not doing it.
39:07 --> 39:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
39:08 --> 39:19 [SPEAKER_02]: But it reminds me of the nineteen centuries stories of explorers being trapped somewhere and drawing lots to see who's like they're going to eat.
39:19 --> 39:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
39:32 --> 39:40 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not unheard of, but there's a very good episode of podcast called Your Wrong About About The Dollar Party.
39:41 --> 39:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
39:41 --> 39:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And I would recommend that if people want to know more about that.
39:44 --> 39:50 [SPEAKER_01]: That was a group of, I think it was in the nineteenth century, nineteenth century explorers who laid in the hundreds.
39:50 --> 39:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, who tried to get California, they didn't do too well.
39:56 --> 39:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was, it was a pleasant, I actually had
40:00 --> 40:02 [SPEAKER_02]: There was an earlier book about it all.
40:03 --> 40:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Our fifth grade teacher would read chapters of this to us after lunch.
40:09 --> 40:10 [SPEAKER_02]: About the Donna party?
40:10 --> 40:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
40:10 --> 40:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
40:13 --> 40:18 [SPEAKER_02]: because she hadn't read it herself, which... I knew there was a reason that we were the way they were.
40:19 --> 40:27 [SPEAKER_02]: It's cemented forever in my mind, the idea that I will not offer or share any book with anybody under the age of twenty one.
40:27 --> 40:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, let's I've read it myself first.
40:30 --> 40:30 [SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no.
40:31 --> 40:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, appropriate.
40:32 --> 40:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, it didn't scar me for life or anything, but wow, I certainly remember all about the daughter of Artique.
40:40 --> 40:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, remind me I want to talk about the scene after the credits because I think there is a massive blue in it.
40:46 --> 40:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I do too, but we can't do that yet.
40:50 --> 40:53 [SPEAKER_01]: So now I just want to say I I
40:56 --> 40:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how many people have to flirt with Dawn.
41:01 --> 41:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess Dawn is in a polycule of sorts.
41:05 --> 41:08 [SPEAKER_01]: No, but bait is just being friendly and I get that.
41:09 --> 41:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And I like that we find out that she and Tornar are an act.
41:13 --> 41:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think we knew that before.
41:15 --> 41:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, an act, I think, is a metaphor for, yeah, we look familiar to you because you've seen this on the whatever their equivalent of, you know, I thought that they do like a formal act as entertainers around.
41:28 --> 41:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, no, I think they are real.
41:33 --> 41:35 [SPEAKER_02]: They're the social rights.
41:35 --> 41:36 [SPEAKER_02]: The social rights of influencers.
41:37 --> 41:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, all right.
41:37 --> 41:40 [SPEAKER_02]: Influacers and social rights, that's how I read it anyway.
41:41 --> 41:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Have you seen my TikTok channel?
41:42 --> 41:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you?
41:44 --> 41:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't TikTok.
41:45 --> 41:46 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm not.
41:46 --> 41:47 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm saying that's what I'm saying.
41:47 --> 41:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, just in general, right, David.
41:49 --> 41:50 [SPEAKER_01]: David is a TikTok.
41:50 --> 41:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
41:51 --> 41:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, that's how you recognize me.
41:53 --> 41:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
41:53 --> 41:55 [SPEAKER_02]: I love the meal's line.
41:56 --> 41:58 [SPEAKER_02]: My mind is like a biscuit.
41:58 --> 42:00 [SPEAKER_02]: I enter other minds and stop up all day.
42:00 --> 42:01 [SPEAKER_02]: No.
42:03 --> 42:11 [SPEAKER_02]: later on, he tries to stop up from dawn and then ask if Gail was, he could plan it and don't answer, if you had no, then stop it up.
42:12 --> 42:12 [UNKNOWN]: Right.
42:13 --> 42:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
42:14 --> 42:17 [SPEAKER_01]: If I know coming get it, you know, it's, yeah, seriously.
42:17 --> 42:21 [SPEAKER_01]: He's daring him and, and I don't even think the meal tries after that.
42:21 --> 42:23 [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, huh, you don't know.
42:23 --> 42:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
42:24 --> 42:26 [SPEAKER_02]: He just says, all right, clearly you don't know.
42:26 --> 42:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
42:27 --> 42:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll just get it from Gail directly.
42:29 --> 42:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, but he also says scale takes up all the space and dawns head and dawn response sounds like you know what that's like.
42:37 --> 42:40 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, talk about smack down in burn.
42:40 --> 42:43 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, yeah, there was a lot of good old spark here.
42:43 --> 42:47 [SPEAKER_02]: He gives better than he gets at least a lot this exchange.
42:47 --> 42:49 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of good verbal sparring.
42:49 --> 42:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's something about being, you know, part of empire, you know, part of the triple throne.
42:54 --> 42:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, it just gives you this kind of cut spun these sorts of situations.
42:58 --> 43:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you do spend all day arguing with yourself, right?
43:02 --> 43:06 [SPEAKER_02]: This whole new concept around having an argument with yourself.
43:07 --> 43:07 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
43:07 --> 43:08 [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
43:09 --> 43:13 [SPEAKER_02]: And then they're telling them you'll, I think, leave no.
43:15 --> 43:15 [SPEAKER_02]: And he does.
43:16 --> 43:16 [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
43:16 --> 43:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Although he says, oh, yeah.
43:19 --> 43:20 [SPEAKER_02]: I gale's he just arrived.
43:20 --> 43:21 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, you're right.
43:22 --> 43:23 [SPEAKER_01]: But it was an odd turn.
43:23 --> 43:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Was it an odd turn?
43:24 --> 43:25 [SPEAKER_01]: It was an odd turn.
43:25 --> 43:26 [SPEAKER_01]: It was an odd turn.
43:26 --> 43:27 [SPEAKER_01]: It was an odd turn.
43:27 --> 43:28 [SPEAKER_01]: It was an odd turn.
43:28 --> 43:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And the meal does not kick me out into next week.
43:31 --> 43:31 [SPEAKER_01]: No.
43:32 --> 43:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
43:33 --> 43:37 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, you would think he would make her drown herself or something.
43:37 --> 43:38 [SPEAKER_02]: But sadly, exactly.
43:38 --> 43:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Or, tear off the bandages on, well, there's no bandages on Don's legs.
43:44 --> 43:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, yeah.
43:45 --> 43:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she looks like she made a great recovery from where she was last week.
43:49 --> 43:50 [SPEAKER_02]: She did pretty well.
43:50 --> 43:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
43:50 --> 43:51 [SPEAKER_02]: She did pretty well.
43:51 --> 43:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Of course.
43:53 --> 43:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Pretty up and Adam.
43:54 --> 43:59 [SPEAKER_02]: The first foundation, medication medical practices must be very advanced.
43:59 --> 44:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you see the way that she, I mean, she eludes that, right?
44:01 --> 44:04 [SPEAKER_01]: She tons like, oh, I'm so injured.
44:04 --> 44:06 [SPEAKER_01]: She's like, ah, they got all the kinds of stuff for that now.
44:06 --> 44:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't worry about it.
44:07 --> 44:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
44:07 --> 44:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
44:07 --> 44:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
44:07 --> 44:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
44:08 --> 44:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
44:08 --> 44:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't fix you up.
44:09 --> 44:13 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, it's like that Harry Potter potion to regrow your bones, right?
44:13 --> 44:14 [SPEAKER_01]: There's someone like that.
44:14 --> 44:15 [SPEAKER_01]: It's something like that.
44:15 --> 44:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
44:16 --> 44:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
44:16 --> 44:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Something like that.
44:17 --> 44:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think the foundation has all the tech.
44:19 --> 44:21 [SPEAKER_01]: If you get in sick, I think that's where you want to be.
44:21 --> 44:26 [SPEAKER_02]: That's the place to go to solve all of these seemingly intractable chronic conditions.
44:27 --> 44:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the mule is ready to meet Gale, so let's catch up with her.
44:31 --> 44:32 [SPEAKER_02]: We got to catch up with Gale.
44:32 --> 44:38 [SPEAKER_01]: On Ignis, Gale convinces preying to lead the second foundation to a new planet, which not even she will know the location of.
44:39 --> 44:43 [SPEAKER_01]: After arguing he agrees to do so and gives her his blessing to fight the mule, but not without help.
44:44 --> 44:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Gale and her ex-men arrive on new terminus to begin their confrontation.
44:49 --> 44:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Ex-men and women.
44:51 --> 44:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm just going with the classic, classic X-Men.
44:56 --> 44:58 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, she can be Professor X, too.
44:59 --> 45:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Charles Xavier.
45:00 --> 45:09 [SPEAKER_02]: I love that pre-takes on basically what all the Bishop's are supposed to take on before they're consecrated is I do not want to be a bishop.
45:09 --> 45:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I do not want to be a leader.
45:11 --> 45:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, the general knowledge that probably the best leaders, the ones who don't want to be leaders.
45:17 --> 45:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Although that's a little shaky sometime.
45:19 --> 45:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a biblical, I mean, that is a Western biblical trope, right?
45:25 --> 45:29 [SPEAKER_01]: That is something, starts with Moses keeps going throughout the whole Bible.
45:29 --> 45:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
45:30 --> 45:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is good point.
45:30 --> 45:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's the root of that is the reluctantly or starts with Moses.
45:34 --> 45:44 [SPEAKER_02]: I think there was an emperor sometime during the Roman Empire that said I don't want to be emperor, but they also said what you got to be because, you know, family line or whatever,
45:45 --> 45:46 [SPEAKER_02]: And he turned out to be one of the best.
45:48 --> 45:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And then, of course, there was another emperor who actually retired.
45:52 --> 45:54 [SPEAKER_02]: And said, OK, I've given enough to to the empire.
45:54 --> 45:56 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm now retiring to my garden.
45:56 --> 45:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm tacitis.
45:57 --> 45:58 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was.
45:58 --> 45:59 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to explain the tacitis.
46:00 --> 46:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Very Jimmy Carter of him, right?
46:02 --> 46:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Those of you who write, those of you who know your Roman history, please write and tell me which emperor it was that retired and had a happy rest of the life.
46:10 --> 46:12 [SPEAKER_01]: It was Emperor Carter telling you.
46:13 --> 46:17 [SPEAKER_01]: and Bridgamy Carter doing his habitat for humanity every year basically till he died.
46:17 --> 46:18 [SPEAKER_01]: If you say so.
46:19 --> 46:20 [SPEAKER_01]: He really did that Jimmy Carter.
46:20 --> 46:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I know.
46:22 --> 46:25 [SPEAKER_02]: No, but I don't think he would have characterized as his empire.
46:25 --> 46:27 [SPEAKER_02]: I just doesn't sound like Jimmy Carter.
46:28 --> 46:31 [SPEAKER_01]: The guy sold his peanut farm to be less conflicted.
46:31 --> 46:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, come on.
46:32 --> 46:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you did.
46:33 --> 46:35 [SPEAKER_02]: I lived through that presidency, John, so.
46:36 --> 46:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I recently read a book about it, so.
46:39 --> 46:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, good.
46:40 --> 46:42 [SPEAKER_01]: So I decided to keep up with you.
46:42 --> 46:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just kidding.
46:43 --> 46:44 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, all right.
46:45 --> 46:45 [SPEAKER_01]: So.
46:46 --> 46:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's fine.
46:48 --> 46:50 [SPEAKER_02]: This is not suicide if I kill him first.
46:52 --> 46:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you got it there.
46:53 --> 46:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I just this whole scene was a little.
46:57 --> 46:58 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, we got to get the gear.
46:58 --> 46:59 [SPEAKER_01]: We got to get the team.
46:59 --> 47:01 [SPEAKER_01]: We got to get to a new location.
47:01 --> 47:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I know I know.
47:02 --> 47:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Not my favorite kind of storytelling, but, you know, we're doing it and we're getting to the next step.
47:06 --> 47:09 [SPEAKER_02]: So let's just get well and besides you here,
47:11 --> 47:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Gail talking to the statue of Harry, which Harry himself sculpted.
47:16 --> 47:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but then I have to hear silver card.
47:17 --> 47:18 [SPEAKER_01]: No things nonsense.
47:19 --> 47:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh stop.
47:20 --> 47:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Silver was supposed to be here.
47:22 --> 47:22 [SPEAKER_01]: No, she wasn't.
47:24 --> 47:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, according to the original plan, rich was supposed to be there and Gayle wasn't even supposed to.
47:28 --> 47:28 [SPEAKER_02]: That's true.
47:28 --> 47:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Ever come along.
47:29 --> 47:33 [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, let's, let's not look backwards and try to get full move forwards.
47:34 --> 47:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you also have to remember that Salva was supposed to survive until the Mule Battle and then die during that.
47:41 --> 47:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is what Salva said proves she can change the future.
47:44 --> 47:48 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I think that may be more meaningful than I'm giving it credit for with my startedotic.
47:49 --> 47:52 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that is absolutely true, John.
47:52 --> 47:58 [SPEAKER_02]: So, Cel were died in order to insure Gail that Peter is malleable.
47:59 --> 48:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Even though she seems to have forgotten that now, I mean, mostly right now, she's completely track on the fact that any time she tries to be get beyond that point in the future, there is nothing.
48:10 --> 48:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And the whole previous episode, you know, she's circling around, so that doesn't seem to be a fun vacation spot around the black hole.
48:19 --> 48:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I can think of other places I'd rather be.
48:23 --> 48:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
48:24 --> 48:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And I like pre-emphasizing the importance of the fact that Gail is coming from a community.
48:29 --> 48:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And people who walk so much in each other's thoughts that were like one creature, I just, I like that, you know, that image so that even though yes, you think you're going alone, but we're all with you, and by the way, a couple of us are going with you physically as well as, you know,
48:48 --> 48:49 [SPEAKER_02]: mentally and whatever.
48:50 --> 49:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I do think that that's true and it's a powerful message of, you know, the people who try to enforce their will on everybody are in the end weaker than those who have the big tent right, who who want to have community and want to have relationship.
49:05 --> 49:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it's again, bring back the Tolkien, you know, the fellowship of the ring was stronger than the one guy who couldn't imagine that people worked together.
49:16 --> 49:17 [SPEAKER_01]: to destroy it, right?
49:18 --> 49:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Couldn't imagine that nobody would try to claim it.
49:20 --> 49:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Somebody did try to claim it on the end, but it is fingering up it off so it was fine.
49:25 --> 49:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and somebody else, you know, lost their life in another one.
49:29 --> 49:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, you get my point out, right?
49:32 --> 49:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I like, of course.
49:33 --> 49:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
49:33 --> 49:35 [SPEAKER_01]: No one person could have destroyed the ring.
49:36 --> 49:40 [SPEAKER_01]: But that's the point is the fellowship is what's saved them.
49:41 --> 49:59 [SPEAKER_02]: it is and pity and the redemption for the one who had to have his finger bit off was that he had done everything he could possibly do as an individual to come to that point and then after that it was up to other forces to
50:00 --> 50:05 [SPEAKER_02]: as one of my Tolkien friends says put the divine banana peel under golem's foot.
50:05 --> 50:08 [SPEAKER_02]: He slept just the right moment.
50:08 --> 50:15 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think was the first thing that like, I don't know, like a sealed or said to golem when he got to arrow heaven, you know?
50:15 --> 50:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, hey, buddy, how would the ring treat you?
50:20 --> 50:21 [SPEAKER_01]: It's legal.
50:22 --> 50:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, I guess we both kind of had the same problem there, but we were both dealing with the same ring, so it makes sense.
50:30 --> 50:33 [SPEAKER_01]: We should get a little comedy going on the talking after life.
50:35 --> 50:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm a, I actually asked somebody about the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,
50:58 --> 51:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I like to think the Van Yarr were very chill about it and they just sort of looked a little bit judgmentally out of the corner of their eye.
51:06 --> 51:16 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think the Teleri, I think they did a slow clap and they said, well, well, well, look who comes here.
51:17 --> 51:19 [SPEAKER_01]: The prodigal sun returns.
51:19 --> 51:23 [SPEAKER_02]: How did you like to clean up the holes of our ships for a while?
51:23 --> 51:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for three million years, you can polish my ship.
51:29 --> 51:30 [SPEAKER_02]: For something.
51:30 --> 51:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
51:32 --> 51:32 [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
51:33 --> 51:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's get to the, the, what I think is the showpiece of the episode.
51:37 --> 51:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I think so too.
51:38 --> 51:39 [SPEAKER_01]: The trial of day.
51:40 --> 51:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
51:40 --> 51:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Day is held in bonds as he awaits, trial by the faith with song bird as his co defendant and ocean glass as his executioner.
51:49 --> 51:54 [SPEAKER_01]: As Sudmaster prosecutes his case and the inheritors perform their interpretive dance routine.
51:54 --> 51:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Day learns the breeze and head can be awoken with a melody.
51:58 --> 52:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Over the course of his impassioned speech for his defense, Day reveals that Demorselle is the denial that the inheritors have sought for millennia.
52:06 --> 52:11 [SPEAKER_01]: He recognizes the melody she sang to him as a child and awakens the breeze and head further.
52:12 --> 52:18 [SPEAKER_01]: While Sun Master is convinced of Demorselle's existence as Demorselle, he proceeds in ordering day's execution.
52:18 --> 52:22 [SPEAKER_01]: The episode ends with Day falling toward a pit of man-eating bacteria.
52:25 --> 52:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Delicious, right?
52:26 --> 52:27 [SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting.
52:28 --> 52:28 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, tasty.
52:30 --> 52:37 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure that he was trying to defend himself.
52:37 --> 52:40 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was more trying to throw himself on the mercy of the court.
52:42 --> 52:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And at the same time, say, look, I have this knowledge that you want.
52:47 --> 52:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's a defense strategy, isn't it?
52:52 --> 52:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I do think he cares about his life a little bit here.
52:55 --> 53:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yes, absolutely, but I also think it's a catharsis moment which is why I've characterized this is classic Greek tragedy Greek sacred drama actually the tragedy was the sacred drama form in which
53:10 --> 53:14 [SPEAKER_02]: you, it is intended to produce a catharsis in the audience.
53:14 --> 53:18 [SPEAKER_01]: That's really interesting thinking about the interpretive dance as the chorus, right?
53:18 --> 53:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
53:20 --> 53:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
53:21 --> 53:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
53:22 --> 53:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
53:22 --> 53:27 [SPEAKER_02]: From the very, when I first saw that round platforms, I spotlight it in the darkness.
53:27 --> 53:31 [SPEAKER_02]: My first thought was, oh, are we getting theater in the round?
53:31 --> 53:32 [SPEAKER_02]: No.
53:33 --> 53:34 [SPEAKER_02]: And it just kind of all,
53:35 --> 53:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Mushroom from there.
53:37 --> 53:37 [SPEAKER_02]: We sure are.
53:38 --> 53:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Look at community theater scene on Micogen is really, really strong.
53:43 --> 53:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it had these elements of the ancient Greek drama played out in an amassive Coliseum like structures surrounded by all these people to provide witness guided by an ancient Egyptian priest.
54:01 --> 54:03 [SPEAKER_01]: who his voice still does not match his body.
54:03 --> 54:05 [SPEAKER_02]: I just don't know.
54:05 --> 54:07 [SPEAKER_01]: He should have been, they should have great his hair at least.
54:07 --> 54:08 [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
54:08 --> 54:09 [SPEAKER_02]: I do.
54:10 --> 54:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I really do.
54:10 --> 54:11 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a very odd choice.
54:12 --> 54:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And well, maybe it's meant to imply that he's constantly dying at, you know, I don't know.
54:17 --> 54:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe.
54:18 --> 54:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Not that I think he did a bad job.
54:19 --> 54:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I was actually kind of annoyed.
54:21 --> 54:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I was annoyed by his jacket first and then I realized what it was that it was theater the whole time.
54:27 --> 54:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And I went, okay, okay, I'm in on this now.
54:30 --> 54:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, if that was the whole thing from his first appearance in Songbird and Ocean Glass's house was utterly theatrical and designed to be theatrical, and of course, work on the drug add-al-domined on top of that, but- Right.
54:43 --> 54:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Bull, I'm with your, with your process here.
54:46 --> 54:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I love the way that the microgene spectators, the, you know, they were the Roman Conceans spectators, and they were giving him some microgene version of Thumbs Down.
54:56 --> 55:01 [SPEAKER_02]: But definitely being cheerled by Sunmaster.
55:03 --> 55:10 [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, it was really, I would not be surprised if we have some listeners say they thought it was kind of hokey.
55:12 --> 55:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but again, like I thought it so at first, and then I went, you know, I actually think that this is the point, right?
55:20 --> 55:21 [SPEAKER_01]: It should be a little hokey.
55:22 --> 55:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, because it's very high-drama, it's very higher-edic, and it is ritual to the max.
55:30 --> 55:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And these are all things that I think were not accustomed to seeing in most science fiction.
55:37 --> 55:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't understand why Sunmaster thinks that Songbird was also culpable in some fashion.
55:47 --> 55:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I thought it was she exposed them.
55:50 --> 56:06 [SPEAKER_01]: She was the one it's because of her that they got there, but Did she just up one day and say yeah, I'm gonna go to the gossip report and see if I get picked I I don't think that I think she was there to gain intel She was not supposed to reveal the existence of the inheritors, right?
56:06 --> 56:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what she did by doing the hands-on bull Right
56:11 --> 56:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And you could also argue conversely that day was not supposed to reveal the information that Denver Zell is a robot, or she never would have given the handsome.
56:19 --> 56:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, and that's why they're both on trial.
56:20 --> 56:22 [SPEAKER_02]: So, well, I know.
56:23 --> 56:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I do understand why she's on trial.
56:25 --> 56:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't agree with it.
56:26 --> 56:32 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think that's the logic is you're the one who put the bait out for this emperor to come down here.
56:34 --> 56:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Whether or not she chose to, I think, is important to remember.
56:40 --> 56:40 [SPEAKER_01]: But she did, right?
56:40 --> 56:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, she chose to do that symbol.
56:42 --> 56:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what they're saying.
56:43 --> 56:44 [SPEAKER_01]: You're a couple of people.
56:44 --> 56:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, she chose to do this symbol.
56:46 --> 56:46 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, okay.
56:46 --> 56:47 [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
56:47 --> 56:47 [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
56:47 --> 56:52 [SPEAKER_02]: I thought, you know, she certainly didn't want before she entered into the whole thing.
56:52 --> 56:53 [SPEAKER_02]: She didn't want data falling.
56:53 --> 56:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Love her through her.
56:54 --> 56:57 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, but, but I do think that she, you know, she willfully.
56:58 --> 57:00 [SPEAKER_01]: She still had all of our old memories, right?
57:00 --> 57:05 [SPEAKER_01]: She did willfully expose the inheritance, the existence of the inheritance, not just today, but to demores all.
57:06 --> 57:08 [SPEAKER_02]: I think the whole episode was white.
57:08 --> 57:10 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think she remembers that anymore.
57:11 --> 57:12 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I know.
57:12 --> 57:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying.
57:12 --> 57:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Who I know what happened?
57:15 --> 57:16 [SPEAKER_02]: And what she didn't say.
57:16 --> 57:18 [SPEAKER_02]: How does Sunmaster just say?
57:18 --> 57:19 [SPEAKER_01]: He had already told us.
57:19 --> 57:20 [SPEAKER_02]: He saw her memories.
57:20 --> 57:21 [SPEAKER_02]: That's what it was.
57:21 --> 57:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that also day had said, you did this symbol.
57:24 --> 57:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And now I know what's going on.
57:26 --> 57:27 [SPEAKER_01]: He came in.
57:27 --> 57:28 [SPEAKER_01]: He came in yellow and about the inheritance.
57:29 --> 57:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
57:30 --> 57:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
57:30 --> 57:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
57:30 --> 57:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
57:31 --> 57:31 [SPEAKER_02]: No.
57:32 --> 57:33 [SPEAKER_02]: OK, fair point, fair point.
57:35 --> 57:37 [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, initially,
57:39 --> 57:48 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, this iteration of Clion, the twenty-fourth iteration is pushing against the notion that he is culpable in this in any way.
57:50 --> 57:57 [SPEAKER_02]: He's still as part of this dynasty that did all these horrible things and saw a percentage of ice today, he'd be around shut and then he was alive this.
57:58 --> 58:01 [SPEAKER_02]: But a last day has really been tractable.
58:03 --> 58:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And he tries to explain, I'm not the Korean, you're looking for, but he's told nonetheless, you had a role in all of this.
58:13 --> 58:17 [SPEAKER_02]: But it's when the brazenhead starts to try and sing them results well by.
58:19 --> 58:22 [SPEAKER_02]: And suddenly, I thought back to what they actually show us.
58:24 --> 58:26 [SPEAKER_02]: They could link up with fellow robots and something called the class.
58:28 --> 58:30 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's what this represents.
58:30 --> 58:37 [SPEAKER_01]: That a handshake can refer to machines, uh, understanding that they're working together, right?
58:37 --> 58:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Like linking up.
58:39 --> 58:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it says, you know, handshake initiative.
58:42 --> 58:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what the robot said.
58:44 --> 58:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, and, and that is what they're trying to do, right?
58:49 --> 58:51 [SPEAKER_01]: They're trying to sort of say, Hey, I'm here.
58:51 --> 58:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm here.
58:51 --> 58:52 [SPEAKER_01]: We're working together here.
58:52 --> 58:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes.
58:54 --> 58:58 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I, my, the other one left sending out a hoping somebody will respond.
58:58 --> 58:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Helping if you weren't going to be.
59:00 --> 59:01 [SPEAKER_02]: And day does respond.
59:02 --> 59:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
59:04 --> 59:08 [SPEAKER_02]: And because his memory has been stimulated by his recent growth trip into his own past.
59:11 --> 59:16 [SPEAKER_02]: he can eventually sing the whole song or the call on response to whatever it is.
59:17 --> 59:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think the demo is all even still.
59:19 --> 59:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Hums it sometimes because I don't usually do it this episode.
59:22 --> 59:26 [SPEAKER_01]: In a separate scene, I don't recall what's seen, but she hum that in this episode.
59:26 --> 59:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe when she was decanting the Clions.
59:29 --> 59:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Could be going to decant the Clions.
59:31 --> 59:32 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think she actually.
59:32 --> 59:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Pretty canting it.
59:34 --> 59:36 [SPEAKER_02]: He's right, right, right, but she's getting herself all.
59:37 --> 59:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I just don't know.
59:37 --> 59:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Ready to go.
59:38 --> 59:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
59:39 --> 59:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
59:39 --> 59:40 [SPEAKER_02]: This is the locker room.
59:42 --> 59:47 [SPEAKER_02]: But I'd really do love the way days oratory rises to matches setting.
59:48 --> 59:55 [SPEAKER_02]: And he finally sees and says, we all tell ourselves stories to make sense of the tiny rules we play.
59:56 --> 59:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I know I have.
59:58 --> 59:59 [SPEAKER_02]: You are right to put me on trial.
01:00:00 --> 01:00:01 [SPEAKER_02]: It is my place to a tone.
01:00:02 --> 01:00:04 [SPEAKER_02]: My destiny has enslaved a robot.
01:00:05 --> 01:00:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Dynastie.
01:00:06 --> 01:00:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Dynastie, excuse me.
01:00:07 --> 01:00:08 [SPEAKER_01]: You wrote it right.
01:00:08 --> 01:00:09 [SPEAKER_01]: That's why I was correctly.
01:00:09 --> 01:00:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
01:00:09 --> 01:00:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
01:00:10 --> 01:00:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
01:00:12 --> 01:00:23 [SPEAKER_02]: And thinking back upon his utter cruelty and scorn of Demousel in the previous episodes, season, and suddenly he recognizes this.
01:00:25 --> 01:00:32 [SPEAKER_02]: It's really pointing it to me, and he realizes that his dynasty has twisted Demousel into the monster that they themselves are.
01:00:33 --> 01:00:34 [SPEAKER_01]: which is really interesting, right?
01:00:34 --> 01:00:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Because the moral of last season is that Demoselle is the real Empress, and that the Clion clones are really just tools to have the dynasty continue in name.
01:00:45 --> 01:00:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Will and who turned her into that in the first place?
01:00:48 --> 01:00:49 [SPEAKER_01]: The first Clion.
01:00:49 --> 01:00:51 [SPEAKER_01]: They only real Clion was the first Clion, right?
01:00:51 --> 01:00:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
01:00:52 --> 01:01:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And then Demoselle was really the Empress, but the question is, is it just one way or did the Clions also turn her into a monster the same way that she turned them into what they were?
01:01:02 --> 01:01:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's what I'm saying.
01:01:03 --> 01:01:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Clean on the first turn to into this thing.
01:01:05 --> 01:01:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:01:06 --> 01:01:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Who's imperative was to preserve them on all costs.
01:01:09 --> 01:01:17 [SPEAKER_01]: See, I thought that you meant the current, you know, the generations of Cleans, forged her into this monster.
01:01:18 --> 01:01:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think I think Damien said as well.
01:01:20 --> 01:01:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and they can exactly.
01:01:23 --> 01:01:29 [SPEAKER_02]: They continue the initial factor that started at all.
01:01:29 --> 01:01:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:01:30 --> 01:01:36 [SPEAKER_02]: in this degradation of a robot, the sacralage as songbird calls to a violation.
01:01:37 --> 01:01:39 [SPEAKER_02]: She had another word which is not coming to my mind.
01:01:39 --> 01:01:40 [SPEAKER_02]: That was last episode.
01:01:40 --> 01:01:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Heresy, perhaps.
01:01:42 --> 01:01:43 [SPEAKER_02]: That was the word, I think.
01:01:44 --> 01:01:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway.
01:01:45 --> 01:01:46 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so...
01:01:47 --> 01:01:51 [SPEAKER_02]: It turns out to be Sunmaster, who's pronouncing the guilty verdict.
01:01:51 --> 01:01:53 [SPEAKER_02]: I thought that Seaglass was supposed to be the judge.
01:01:53 --> 01:01:54 [SPEAKER_02]: I guess she was- Oh, Ocean Glass was the action.
01:01:54 --> 01:01:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:01:55 --> 01:01:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:01:55 --> 01:01:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:01:56 --> 01:01:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:01:57 --> 01:01:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:01:57 --> 01:01:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:01:58 --> 01:01:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:01:58 --> 01:01:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:01:59 --> 01:02:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:00 --> 01:02:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:01 --> 01:02:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:02 --> 01:02:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:02 --> 01:02:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:03 --> 01:02:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:03 --> 01:02:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:04 --> 01:02:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:05 --> 01:02:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:05 --> 01:02:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:06 --> 01:02:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:07 --> 01:02:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:08 --> 01:02:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:08 --> 01:02:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:09 --> 01:02:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:10 --> 01:02:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:10 --> 01:02:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:11 --> 01:02:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:12 --> 01:02:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:12 --> 01:02:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:13 --> 01:02:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:14 --> 01:02:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Ocean Glass was the action.
01:02:15 --> 01:02:15 [UNKNOWN]: Ocean Glass
01:02:16 --> 01:02:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't, sorry, that was a bit.
01:02:17 --> 01:02:19 [SPEAKER_02]: He might have saved himself.
01:02:20 --> 01:02:27 [SPEAKER_02]: If he hadn't revered it to his usual f-u when Sunnester tries to say, it's all lies.
01:02:27 --> 01:02:28 [SPEAKER_02]: It's all good.
01:02:30 --> 01:02:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think he was ever walking down to their alive, right?
01:02:32 --> 01:02:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I don't think so either.
01:02:33 --> 01:02:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, well.
01:02:34 --> 01:02:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know what I mean.
01:02:35 --> 01:02:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Without getting dropped into the vicious, man-eating lion bit, you know.
01:02:40 --> 01:02:42 [SPEAKER_02]: You mean just several fights?
01:02:42 --> 01:02:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:02:43 --> 01:02:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that he was always going to drop down there.
01:02:45 --> 01:02:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, nobody, no death.
01:02:47 --> 01:02:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I am doubtful that this day just died and his stories over right there.
01:02:51 --> 01:02:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I will say, please stop doing that.
01:02:55 --> 01:02:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's not have the fake cofänger as multiple times in a season.
01:02:59 --> 01:03:00 [SPEAKER_02]: It's beginning to get old.
01:03:00 --> 01:03:03 [SPEAKER_02]: I have to say, you're right about that.
01:03:03 --> 01:03:08 [SPEAKER_01]: How many people can almost die and then not, and then, you know, it's don't do that.
01:03:08 --> 01:03:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't do that.
01:03:09 --> 01:03:20 [SPEAKER_01]: People have to die for your, or rather, if you're going to suggest that a person is dying, sometimes it has to be true, or the story will become meaningless.
01:03:21 --> 01:03:22 [SPEAKER_02]: And death will become meaningless.
01:03:22 --> 01:03:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:03:23 --> 01:03:41 [SPEAKER_01]: right and that that's what happened in late game of the rooms like early game of the rooms was like oh you're with a lot of main characters here and we have resurrected the character an episode later yeah well and you're constantly watching stuff i mean i often hear you instant sing
01:03:42 --> 01:03:43 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I can't remember.
01:03:43 --> 01:03:47 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was one of the zombie episodes or the the last of us.
01:03:47 --> 01:03:54 [SPEAKER_02]: So last of us where the guy crawls out from underneath the dumpster or something and is still alive, even though we thought he was dead.
01:03:54 --> 01:03:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no.
01:03:54 --> 01:03:59 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the walking dead actually and I don't really watch the walking that David will talk about that.
01:04:00 --> 01:04:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I'm aware though because this is that is now a cultural phenomenon like that's in the language of critique now of like all right, we crawled out of the dumpster now.
01:04:12 --> 01:04:18 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like jumping the shark right right it just becomes climbing out of the dumpster now is now part of the part of the lingo.
01:04:19 --> 01:04:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I thought it was a very nice echo of the imperial gesture
01:04:25 --> 01:04:34 [SPEAKER_02]: that sunmaster uses to drop day from the dyes into a very deep and dark pit of hungry satellites for remediation, which is otherwise known as composting.
01:04:35 --> 01:04:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, remediation.
01:04:36 --> 01:04:39 [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't sound too bad, does it?
01:04:40 --> 01:04:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, it could have some possible positive outcomes with instead of holding up two fingers and twisting the hand he holds up the fist and twists the hands.
01:04:49 --> 01:04:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And the two fingers being part of the inheritance, right?
01:04:54 --> 01:04:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, interesting, but it's the empire that holds up the two layers.
01:04:58 --> 01:04:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:04:58 --> 01:04:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So where did that come from?
01:05:00 --> 01:05:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Chicken and egg here, right?
01:05:02 --> 01:05:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.
01:05:04 --> 01:05:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.
01:05:06 --> 01:05:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
01:05:07 --> 01:05:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I, I was able to let the drama of the presentation, you know, theatricals say, okay, this is, this is good.
01:05:18 --> 01:05:19 [SPEAKER_02]: This is cool.
01:05:19 --> 01:05:22 [SPEAKER_02]: The evocation of all, again, those ancient
01:05:23 --> 01:05:24 [SPEAKER_02]: ancient earth practices.
01:05:24 --> 01:05:27 [SPEAKER_02]: It's still showing up again and again.
01:05:29 --> 01:05:34 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's hard to set your probably right that he wasn't going to get out of there anyway, but he never knew.
01:05:35 --> 01:05:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I really am very doubtful that he was ever leaving that place.
01:05:40 --> 01:05:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:05:41 --> 01:05:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And again, I don't think he's dead.
01:05:43 --> 01:05:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I I had been freaked out too many times to believe that without seeing the body.
01:05:48 --> 01:05:50 [SPEAKER_02]: That's the problem with doing it too many times, isn't it?
01:05:50 --> 01:05:52 [SPEAKER_02]: After, well, you just don't believe it anymore.
01:05:53 --> 01:05:56 [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be like his nanites reawaken, no, it's, I don't know.
01:05:57 --> 01:06:00 [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't, we watched him remove them, so if that happens, I'll be really upset.
01:06:01 --> 01:06:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Right, right, which leaves me to one of the reflections that I had that throughout the past few episodes, day has been stripping himself
01:06:17 --> 01:06:23 [SPEAKER_02]: and been diminished from all vestiges of empire, much like the triple throne itself has been diminished.
01:06:25 --> 01:06:33 [SPEAKER_02]: He abandoned him in the throne and he's growing his hair and gives up his authority for, you know, drug-induced happiness.
01:06:34 --> 01:06:35 [SPEAKER_02]: He masked himself as a clavager.
01:06:35 --> 01:06:37 [SPEAKER_02]: He takes off his or her bracelets.
01:06:37 --> 01:06:39 [SPEAKER_02]: He removes his nanites.
01:06:39 --> 01:06:42 [SPEAKER_02]: He takes off his repiro clothing and disguises himself.
01:06:43 --> 01:06:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Dress his hippie stuff.
01:06:45 --> 01:06:53 [SPEAKER_02]: And now, all of his attempts at discussing his persona and from everybody, including himself, have all been stripped away.
01:06:54 --> 01:07:01 [SPEAKER_02]: And he's faced with the simple truth of, yeah, we and Perus had created a monster in our own image.
01:07:01 --> 01:07:03 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's not a pretty image.
01:07:04 --> 01:07:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And I really was reminded of the concept of dissent and return.
01:07:10 --> 01:07:16 [SPEAKER_02]: which Joseph Campbell identifies the hero's journey and then at one particular point there's the falling into the pit.
01:07:16 --> 01:07:18 [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, make of that what she will there.
01:07:18 --> 01:07:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it does survive that.
01:07:20 --> 01:07:26 [SPEAKER_02]: But it's also familiar pattern from a lot of the world's saber stories.
01:07:27 --> 01:07:35 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, get stripped down to your essence and then go through some kind of death, purging, dissent, and deductus, whatever.
01:07:35 --> 01:07:40 [SPEAKER_02]: So, now the reason for me to suspect that, you know, we haven't seen the last of day point.
01:07:41 --> 01:07:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I think you're absolutely right.
01:07:44 --> 01:07:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I know that you have a section on, you know, corrections, reflections, speculations.
01:07:49 --> 01:07:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't we turn to that next?
01:07:50 --> 01:07:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I was able to find a confirmed that this is semester eighteen.
01:07:54 --> 01:07:56 [SPEAKER_02]: I was looking for used about the numbering system there.
01:07:57 --> 01:08:01 [SPEAKER_02]: And I did also rewatch for more time and saw that you were absolutely right, John.
01:08:01 --> 01:08:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Badie was put in the escape pod the first time and then taken out.
01:08:04 --> 01:08:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm always right, Marilyn.
01:08:06 --> 01:08:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just kidding.
01:08:07 --> 01:08:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just, right in.
01:08:08 --> 01:08:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Listen, if you got corrections right in, empire at thelorhounds.com.
01:08:12 --> 01:08:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
01:08:13 --> 01:08:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think I still think it was on Maggie's orders that they extracted beta without just knocking her off.
01:08:19 --> 01:08:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Could be, could be he does seem to like her and her pet.
01:08:23 --> 01:08:25 [SPEAKER_02]: He sure does her and her pet.
01:08:26 --> 01:08:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
01:08:30 --> 01:08:36 [SPEAKER_02]: I have never discovered through reading the pickle volumes that the word mentalics is as a monso.
01:08:36 --> 01:08:38 [SPEAKER_02]: It was not invented by show owners.
01:08:38 --> 01:08:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought that that was a show thing because it is not a show thing.
01:08:42 --> 01:08:45 [SPEAKER_01]: There's just called psychologists in the original trilogy of foundation.
01:08:46 --> 01:08:50 [SPEAKER_02]: That's right, but in the pre-calls, Selton talks about mentalics.
01:08:50 --> 01:08:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, that's good.
01:08:52 --> 01:08:52 [SPEAKER_01]: There you go.
01:08:57 --> 01:09:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Getting back to the Harry could kill the meal and that he chooses not to.
01:09:04 --> 01:09:06 [SPEAKER_02]: He's not the one who is ensuring that the plan works.
01:09:08 --> 01:09:11 [SPEAKER_02]: He is the one who is there to be a sure foundation after a crisis.
01:09:12 --> 01:09:17 [SPEAKER_02]: That this is all part of Psycho History and sometimes he makes comments on what's coming next.
01:09:19 --> 01:09:26 [SPEAKER_02]: And it also feels a little bit like the whole God-Harry, psycho-history, helps those who help themselves on set.
01:09:29 --> 01:09:42 [SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of contemporary theology now, which sort of side the notion of God comes to say the day where those who are faithful and praying to all of our things, to God walks beside the people in the midst of their struggles and pain.
01:09:43 --> 01:09:46 [SPEAKER_02]: So, granted, Harry's not really doing that part of it, but
01:09:49 --> 01:09:55 [SPEAKER_02]: this interesting tension between Harry Selven Save us and Harry Selven helps those who help themselves.
01:09:55 --> 01:09:57 [SPEAKER_02]: We saw that set up in the very first season.
01:09:58 --> 01:09:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we did.
01:09:58 --> 01:10:02 [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, I think it was your favorite character who said Selven Selven.
01:10:03 --> 01:10:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my favorite character, Selva Harden.
01:10:05 --> 01:10:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think I just disliked the dialogue that they were giving her.
01:10:10 --> 01:10:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even think I had a problem with the actor.
01:10:12 --> 01:10:14 [SPEAKER_01]: It was just like every other time was like,
01:10:15 --> 01:10:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
01:10:15 --> 01:10:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
01:10:16 --> 01:10:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I even, I don't love even in this episode day going fuck you.
01:10:21 --> 01:10:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it just, it always takes me out of sci-fi when you have like deep sci-fi like this.
01:10:26 --> 01:10:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Me too.
01:10:27 --> 01:10:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Me too.
01:10:27 --> 01:10:30 [SPEAKER_01]: When you have like current day profanity.
01:10:30 --> 01:10:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what I mean?
01:10:31 --> 01:10:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
01:10:31 --> 01:10:33 [SPEAKER_02]: I absolutely do know what you mean, John.
01:10:33 --> 01:10:34 [SPEAKER_02]: It's it's jarring.
01:10:34 --> 01:10:35 [SPEAKER_02]: It's wait a minute.
01:10:36 --> 01:10:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Makes me think it's too, it's too here, right?
01:10:39 --> 01:10:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I bought a lot of something removed.
01:10:41 --> 01:10:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, although I suppose well, you know, you could do it in such a way that if you wanted to use something other than the F word.
01:10:49 --> 01:10:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean plenty of context it could still be still be very clear that that's exactly what they meant.
01:10:56 --> 01:11:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Plenty of different universes will, you know, fictional universes will create their own curse words, right?
01:11:03 --> 01:11:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And, and I think that makes sense.
01:11:05 --> 01:11:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it makes it feel a little bit more immersive in my opinion.
01:11:09 --> 01:11:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Definitely.
01:11:09 --> 01:11:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I know people were like sick of hearing us complaining about our last season, though, so I won't go on about it.
01:11:16 --> 01:11:20 [SPEAKER_02]: And getting back to this whole question of, you know, how culpable was sunburned.
01:11:21 --> 01:11:29 [SPEAKER_02]: in eventually winding up with having an emperor, because she says to Ocean Glass at one point, it was not supposed to work this way.
01:11:29 --> 01:11:31 [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't supposed to be an F in it.
01:11:32 --> 01:11:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Empires sitting in our living room.
01:11:35 --> 01:11:48 [SPEAKER_02]: So right, which leads me back to the whole question of, um, did somebody suspect somehow for some reason that dimmerzo was a robot and so songbird entered the gossip record as a means of,
01:11:49 --> 01:11:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I have no idea, like what was going on in game?
01:11:53 --> 01:11:58 [SPEAKER_02]: And possibly even contesting the leadership of the sunmaster.
01:11:58 --> 01:12:15 [SPEAKER_02]: I get the feeling that neither songbird nor ocean glass, like sunmaster very much, but recognize that they really have to accept his authority and follow along with what he wouldn't want to have happened for the time being.
01:12:15 --> 01:12:18 [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm not sure either of them are particularly fond of guy.
01:12:20 --> 01:12:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Or maybe that's just me, you know.
01:12:22 --> 01:12:23 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I think they fear him.
01:12:24 --> 01:12:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Or anything.
01:12:26 --> 01:12:34 [SPEAKER_02]: I also want to, if they could find a functioning robot and present that robot to the microgeneans, they would no longer have to follow the sunmaster.
01:12:34 --> 01:12:40 [SPEAKER_02]: And he tells day that himself before dropping him in the Seprophytic pit.
01:12:41 --> 01:12:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, how many people have come to power?
01:12:47 --> 01:12:48 [SPEAKER_01]: when they shouldn't, right?
01:12:48 --> 01:12:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Because they're like, I'd rather I'd rather hold onto my power than have the truth come out.
01:12:55 --> 01:13:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's again, to use the religious analogy, it's kind of like having a millennia sort of religions says, oh, someday, our deity, whatever will return.
01:13:05 --> 01:13:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And then the leaders find out, oh, by the way, here they are, they've returned.
01:13:10 --> 01:13:14 [SPEAKER_02]: And like, you know, you didn't, you didn't think about the program.
01:13:16 --> 01:13:20 [SPEAKER_01]: that certain mainstream religions would probably be very against the teachings of their own.
01:13:21 --> 01:13:23 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, that's not going to do it.
01:13:23 --> 01:13:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's not going to do it.
01:13:25 --> 01:13:30 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just interesting to ponder again, like how many Empress gave up power.
01:13:31 --> 01:13:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I know.
01:13:33 --> 01:13:34 [SPEAKER_01]: It's stuff.
01:13:35 --> 01:13:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's the story of the Pharisees in the Bible, right?
01:13:38 --> 01:13:40 [SPEAKER_01]: That is what Jesus says, right?
01:13:40 --> 01:13:44 [SPEAKER_01]: He says, you are more concerned about
01:13:45 --> 01:13:49 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, about the ritual, then you are concerned about the actual teachings.
01:13:49 --> 01:14:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And that, you know, there's a lot of debate over whether that was a valid criticism of the people at that time or if that was perhaps something inserted a little bit later, because of certain groups having a little bit of happening.
01:14:02 --> 01:14:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just say, I'm not saying this was a literal thing that happened, but I'm just saying that this is a trope that we see as people living in power more than they are truly dedicated to the faith.
01:14:14 --> 01:14:15 [SPEAKER_02]: It is human nature.
01:14:19 --> 01:14:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, my God, we've got plenty of stuff this episode and plenty of stuff next episode.
01:14:26 --> 01:14:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
01:14:28 --> 01:14:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Just so many.
01:14:30 --> 01:14:31 [SPEAKER_01]: So many of the rest of that, right?
01:14:32 --> 01:14:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:14:32 --> 01:14:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
01:14:33 --> 01:14:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm excited about the next episode and I know our listeners probably are too.
01:14:37 --> 01:14:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I know I am.
01:14:38 --> 01:14:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:14:39 --> 01:14:40 [SPEAKER_01]: So all right.
01:14:40 --> 01:14:46 [SPEAKER_01]: So listen, if you are a book reader or you don't care about spoilers, we'll talk very briefly after the credits about spoilers.
01:14:46 --> 01:14:51 [SPEAKER_01]: But for now, let me just do a quick closing of the episode.
01:14:51 --> 01:15:00 [SPEAKER_01]: We have a bunch of affiliate podcasts, radioactive ramlings is doing their fallout lore and they are getting prepped for fallout season two in December.
01:15:00 --> 01:15:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Then we have never mind the music on their second season now.
01:15:04 --> 01:15:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Doing
01:15:06 --> 01:15:09 [SPEAKER_01]: ton of, or they about to start their second season.
01:15:09 --> 01:15:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't check which season they're on.
01:15:11 --> 01:15:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, I'm sorry, Mark and Nicole.
01:15:14 --> 01:15:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to discover what season you're on a few transition to season two yet by the time we get the deck podcast.
01:15:20 --> 01:15:21 [SPEAKER_01]: But go listen to that.
01:15:21 --> 01:15:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Go listen to them.
01:15:22 --> 01:15:25 [SPEAKER_01]: They're doing a lot of great stuff every single week on music and psychology.
01:15:26 --> 01:15:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they're back catalog.
01:15:27 --> 01:15:28 [SPEAKER_02]: What's wrong with that?
01:15:28 --> 01:15:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, they've got an episode a week for the last year.
01:15:30 --> 01:15:32 [SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, you have stuff to listen to.
01:15:33 --> 01:15:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, probably Howard is going forward with there.
01:15:36 --> 01:15:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I think wrapping up actually there.
01:15:38 --> 01:15:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, they can wrap season.
01:15:40 --> 01:15:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Perfect wrap up with Kevin Bacon.
01:15:42 --> 01:15:43 [SPEAKER_02]: I see what you did there.
01:15:43 --> 01:15:47 [SPEAKER_01]: We're asked of movies and they just have a good time with that.
01:15:47 --> 01:15:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, we'll shift us and the Star Wars kind of time on podcast are Alicia's podcasts.
01:15:52 --> 01:15:53 [SPEAKER_01]: She's doing doing it on.
01:15:53 --> 01:15:57 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll shift us and she's going forward with Star Wars on the Star Wars feed.
01:15:57 --> 01:15:58 [SPEAKER_01]: So,
01:15:58 --> 01:15:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Go check all those out.
01:15:59 --> 01:16:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I know you like Star Wars if you watch a foundation, probably, if you people don't, but whatever.
01:16:04 --> 01:16:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Point is, go listen to it anyway, because it's good content.
01:16:07 --> 01:16:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It is.
01:16:08 --> 01:16:09 [SPEAKER_01]: You definitely do.
01:16:09 --> 01:16:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, doing is even closer to foundation than Star Wars is.
01:16:13 --> 01:16:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would say so.
01:16:14 --> 01:16:24 [SPEAKER_01]: So, and then your podcast, Marilyn, if you want more of your voice, you can go listen to the back catalogue of original rituals, while you wait for your coverage of season two, brings a power.
01:16:25 --> 01:16:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I already thought of sort of a parallel thing between foundation and rings of power.
01:16:30 --> 01:16:39 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a very slow question of how you depict the ability to move somebody emotionally or.
01:16:40 --> 01:16:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's interesting.
01:16:42 --> 01:16:45 [SPEAKER_02]: What devices and so forth are used?
01:16:46 --> 01:16:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Where's the Vizzi Sonoran rings of power?
01:16:49 --> 01:16:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I was thinking more specifically of, of, you know, healing types of things, but it still is a sort of a, yeah.
01:16:57 --> 01:17:01 [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, enough said, I might, I never actually come up recording that.
01:17:01 --> 01:17:01 [SPEAKER_02]: So who knows?
01:17:02 --> 01:17:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:17:03 --> 01:17:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody hold me to it.
01:17:04 --> 01:17:06 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll see what happens when I get there.
01:17:07 --> 01:17:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, tonight, all we have left to do besides our spoiler after the credits, not where we're still doing that.
01:17:12 --> 01:17:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Is think people, our Discord server boosters, Aaron K, to live the thriller, do seventy-one, Athena A, Lestu Nancy M goes to partition radioactive Richard and Adrienne.
01:17:22 --> 01:17:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Adrienne.
01:17:23 --> 01:17:24 [SPEAKER_01]: We put out a call.
01:17:24 --> 01:17:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I think on second breakfast that we needed another server boost and Adrienne did a couple server boosts.
01:17:31 --> 01:17:35 [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for pulling us back up so we could keep our fancy banner and everything.
01:17:36 --> 01:17:42 [SPEAKER_01]: and our lower masters, Samarshan, Michael G. Michelle E. Brian P. S. C. Peter O'H.
01:17:42 --> 01:17:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Adam S. Nancy M. Doe, seventy-one.
01:17:44 --> 01:17:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Brian M. B. Sixty-three, Frederick H. Sarah L. Garath, C. Matthew M. Sarah M. Andre B. Kwangiew, did I Jedi Bob, Nathan T. Alex V. Sub-Zero.
01:17:54 --> 01:17:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Aaron K. Deli V. Mothership, Sixty-One, Narls.
01:17:59 --> 01:18:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Kathy W. Lestu, Jeffrey B. Elisa U, Neil F. Benby Scott F. Steven and Julia F. Colleas, Bill Mariel, forward slash Tim, Paul K. Bobby C. Jessica H. Redzibby, and Adrienne.
01:18:13 --> 01:18:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks everyone for all your support.
01:18:15 --> 01:18:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, friends.
01:18:17 --> 01:18:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone, join us next week for the Penultimate Episode of Foundation.
01:18:21 --> 01:18:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Stick around.
01:18:21 --> 01:18:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Can you believe it?
01:18:22 --> 01:18:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Stick around after the credits if you want to boilers.
01:18:25 --> 01:18:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
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01:18:47 --> 01:18:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for listening.
01:18:50 --> 01:18:50 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, Marilyn.
01:18:52 --> 01:18:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Big clue in the the C&I title
01:18:56 --> 01:18:57 [SPEAKER_01]: What did I title it?
01:18:58 --> 01:19:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Something to me, the fact that you'll immediately listen to beta is, you know, I just want to say, full spoilers on the foundation books before anybody gets bad.
01:19:13 --> 01:19:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, the fact that the mural listen to beta.
01:19:16 --> 01:19:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that clearly shows Magnifico is the mural and has put something into, put a command on his puppet mural to listen to whatever beta says.
01:19:26 --> 01:19:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever beta says goes.
01:19:28 --> 01:19:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:19:28 --> 01:19:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:19:29 --> 01:19:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
01:19:31 --> 01:19:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
01:19:31 --> 01:19:38 [SPEAKER_02]: And while she was being scrambled by the null field, I wonder for supposed to come away wondering if certain
01:19:39 --> 01:19:51 [SPEAKER_02]: aspects of her mind and maybe even certain powers of being scrambled to I think I hope they're not going in that direction it seems a bit I don't think she's a is I don't think she's a mentality no
01:19:51 --> 01:19:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I think this is just the real meal put into the fake meals head, whatever you want to get it for her.
01:19:58 --> 01:19:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
01:19:58 --> 01:19:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
01:19:59 --> 01:19:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
01:19:59 --> 01:19:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
01:20:00 --> 01:20:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Because he's in like a trance.
01:20:01 --> 01:20:02 [SPEAKER_01]: The music is building.
01:20:03 --> 01:20:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And then she goes, I think you should leave.
01:20:04 --> 01:20:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a stops.
01:20:06 --> 01:20:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:20:06 --> 01:20:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And he immediately stops.
01:20:08 --> 01:20:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't question her at all.
01:20:10 --> 01:20:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I do think that that is, you know, a clear conditioning here.
01:20:15 --> 01:20:20 [SPEAKER_02]: And you'll note, we still haven't seen Maggie in this episode too, so that's two in a row.
01:20:20 --> 01:20:21 [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
01:20:21 --> 01:20:22 [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
01:20:22 --> 01:20:23 [SPEAKER_01]: We haven't seen him.
01:20:23 --> 01:20:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I did notice that the music, I've been listening for the music is not happening through all of those.
01:20:27 --> 01:20:27 [SPEAKER_01]: No.
01:20:28 --> 01:20:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, we'll see.
01:20:30 --> 01:20:43 [SPEAKER_01]: But also, I don't know if he, if the mural is actually doing anything in these scenes, even the fake mural, because he doesn't actually, in none of these scenes, do we see the fake mural actually?
01:20:43 --> 01:20:45 [SPEAKER_01]: controlling anybody, right?
01:20:45 --> 01:20:56 [SPEAKER_01]: The, uh, or even when you see the whole world, the only time we see the fake meal succeed in that is in the flashback, which could be total fiction.
01:20:57 --> 01:20:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
01:20:57 --> 01:20:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
01:20:57 --> 01:20:59 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, which, how much of it is true.
01:20:59 --> 01:21:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:21:00 --> 01:21:01 [SPEAKER_02]: That's, that's how I said.
01:21:02 --> 01:21:07 [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder two, if they're presenting in it such a way that the meal has this capacity,
01:21:08 --> 01:21:11 [SPEAKER_02]: you know, with one or two people at a time kind of thing.
01:21:12 --> 01:21:20 [SPEAKER_02]: But Magnificos music magnifies it so that it magnifies.
01:21:21 --> 01:21:25 [SPEAKER_02]: So that it can then spread out to, you know, large numbers of people.
01:21:25 --> 01:21:32 [SPEAKER_02]: So it was Maggie playing the song to all of the, the military heads of the foundation.
01:21:33 --> 01:21:38 [SPEAKER_02]: that made it very easy for the meal when you arrived to say, okay, start killing each other big.
01:21:39 --> 01:21:43 [SPEAKER_02]: When Maggie was actually nowhere to near him at that point, right?
01:21:44 --> 01:21:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
01:21:44 --> 01:21:45 [SPEAKER_02]: No, yeah.
01:21:46 --> 01:21:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Some kind of, you know, prepping them up, putting some kind of a, a software coding in there that gets triggered as soon as.
01:21:56 --> 01:21:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it could be.
01:21:57 --> 01:21:57 [SPEAKER_01]: It could be.
01:21:57 --> 01:22:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I do think that magnificos pre-conditioning people.
01:22:01 --> 01:22:04 [SPEAKER_01]: and then the muil gets to snap as fingers and it happens.
01:22:05 --> 01:22:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
01:22:06 --> 01:22:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
01:22:06 --> 01:22:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:22:07 --> 01:22:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, I'm pretty on board.
01:22:10 --> 01:22:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I think the biggest thing that is the clue that he's not, that this muil is the real muil is just that sometimes we have seen him do his little camera-focused thing, like the effect of the mind control happens when only he's on screen.
01:22:27 --> 01:22:30 [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't think we've ever seen him be successful when he does it.
01:22:32 --> 01:22:33 [SPEAKER_01]: except in the flashback.
01:22:33 --> 01:22:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Hmm.
01:22:35 --> 01:22:38 [SPEAKER_02]: That's an interesting question.
01:22:38 --> 01:22:39 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's a red herring.
01:22:40 --> 01:22:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe he thinks he's doing something, but he's not doing it.
01:22:43 --> 01:22:44 [SPEAKER_02]: You may be right.
01:22:44 --> 01:22:47 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
01:22:49 --> 01:22:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Waffle.
01:22:49 --> 01:22:51 [SPEAKER_02]: I guess it's another waffle.
01:22:51 --> 01:22:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:22:52 --> 01:22:53 [SPEAKER_01]: That's all I have for this episode.
01:22:53 --> 01:22:53 [SPEAKER_01]: How about you?
01:22:54 --> 01:22:57 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, there was the thing I was going to say about one of the characters.
01:22:57 --> 01:22:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, right.
01:22:59 --> 01:23:00 [SPEAKER_02]: In the prequels.
01:23:01 --> 01:23:05 [SPEAKER_02]: is that he is able to influence human emotion.
01:23:05 --> 01:23:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:23:07 --> 01:23:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Which is an interesting sort of twist.
01:23:09 --> 01:23:15 [SPEAKER_02]: And so now I'm back to, we'll to what extent might Demerzel be able to do that.
01:23:15 --> 01:23:18 [SPEAKER_02]: We don't see her doing anything like that thus far.
01:23:20 --> 01:23:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Unless she's, you know, putting the soothings on, which is from a different galaxy altogether.
01:23:26 --> 01:23:28 [SPEAKER_02]: On, you know,
01:23:29 --> 01:23:32 [SPEAKER_02]: the young dogs when they're unhappy or upset or whatever.
01:23:32 --> 01:23:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, or if that chip is inhibiting it, right?
01:23:34 --> 01:23:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Who knows?
01:23:36 --> 01:23:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's true.
01:23:37 --> 01:23:48 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, if if she started out initially with, you know, that sort of ability to to enter into human emotions and and tweak them slightly.
01:23:48 --> 01:23:51 [SPEAKER_01]: What if she manipulated the first clean on to
01:23:53 --> 01:23:55 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think she, that could well be.
01:23:55 --> 01:23:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, but a backfire, right?
01:23:57 --> 01:24:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I would have say, and she made him have sympathy for her, and he's like, okay, I have sympathy for you.
01:24:02 --> 01:24:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's a collar.
01:24:03 --> 01:24:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
01:24:04 --> 01:24:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And having put that collar on, she no longer has that capacity.
01:24:09 --> 01:24:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:24:10 --> 01:24:12 [SPEAKER_02]: To emotionally influence anyone or anything.
01:24:12 --> 01:24:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:24:13 --> 01:24:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I can see that being a little twist there, like she put her own leash on.
01:24:19 --> 01:24:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I don't think she intended it.
01:24:23 --> 01:24:23 [SPEAKER_01]: accidentally.
01:24:23 --> 01:24:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Really?
01:24:23 --> 01:24:33 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it was just that, you know, three second moment when she was just finally all reassembled and there.
01:24:34 --> 01:24:41 [SPEAKER_02]: And he was behind her doing something to say, okay, I'm reading the show and you're programming and boom, she suddenly, what have you done?
01:24:41 --> 01:24:42 [SPEAKER_02]: What did you do?
01:24:42 --> 01:24:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, you know, and now the love the Cleodon law has superseded this year with long.
01:24:50 --> 01:24:56 [SPEAKER_02]: and presented her with, you know, several hundred years of existential conflict.
01:24:56 --> 01:24:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Boy, poor Demorsel or didn't he?
01:24:58 --> 01:25:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I really like how much more sympathy one has for her at the end of this episode.
01:25:05 --> 01:25:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Then I think maybe in past ones, or I mean, it's been building all along.
01:25:09 --> 01:25:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I had a lot of sympathy for her in season two when we saw her origin story, obviously.
01:25:15 --> 01:25:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:25:16 --> 01:25:17 [SPEAKER_02]: No, that was, that was very good.
01:25:18 --> 01:25:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Very good.
01:25:18 --> 01:25:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, powerful.
01:25:21 --> 01:25:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Very cool.
01:25:22 --> 01:25:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Hard to believe is only two more.
01:25:24 --> 01:25:27 [SPEAKER_02]: It's is number ten going to be a double episode to be here.
01:25:28 --> 01:25:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know about that.
01:25:29 --> 01:25:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I have no idea.
01:25:31 --> 01:25:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even think we have the screen or access yet at the time we're recording this.
01:25:34 --> 01:25:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, they're telling me it's the title of it now, which they hadn't been before.
01:25:37 --> 01:25:39 [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know how much that means.
01:25:40 --> 01:25:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Who knows?
01:25:41 --> 01:25:48 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to try because I don't want to watch it until after we've watched it and recorded for episode nine, which will be next week.
01:25:49 --> 01:25:49 [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
01:25:49 --> 01:25:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, every war I'm going to join us next week, or the pre finale of the Pernal Met episode.
01:25:57 --> 01:26:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what to call it anymore of foundation season three.
01:26:00 --> 01:26:01 [SPEAKER_01]: We will see you then.
01:26:01 --> 01:26:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
01:26:02 --> 01:26:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Bye.
01:26:02 --> 01:26:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Bye.