The Fall of the House of Usher (2025) - Oneshot

[00:00:01] Okay, David, this is where we're supposed to choose a side. Green or black? John, my soul is as black as night. Your turn. I am black for life! So, we're not fighting? I thought this is where HBO wanted us to, like, pick sides and fight and stuff.

[00:00:24] Don't worry, I'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about on the pod. But we seem to agree on one thing. We both really like this show. The politics, the drama, the lore! It was made for the Lorehounds.

[00:00:35] And since we just finished recapping season one, we couldn't be more ready to defend our black queen in the Dance of the Dragons.

[00:00:42] And with the season pass option in Supercast, listeners can get early ad-free access to each weekly scene-by-scene deep dive, plus our custom show guide with all the characters and connections. See you in the Lorehounds podcast feed each week for our dragonfire hot, but probably positive, takes.

[00:00:59] The Lorehounds House of the Dragon coverage is also safe for team green consumption. Side effects may include a deeper understanding of dragon lore, a heartened conflict with itself, and an inescapable urge to read the book Fire and Blood by George R.R. Martin. Dragon seeds may experience burning.

[00:01:15] Welcome to the Lorehounds one-shots, where the Lorehounds, your guides to the Mike Flanniverse. I'm John. And I'm Alicia. And this is our coverage of the Netflix original series, The Fall of the House of Usher.

[00:01:41] In this podcast, we're going to have a short breakdown of the show, starting with our spoiler-free hot takes. Then we'll discuss our favorite parts of the show, our theories about the characters and where this lands in Mike Flanagan's renowned portfolio.

[00:01:53] Stick around to the end of the podcast for programming notes about all podcasts on the Lorehounds networks, including mine. A quick reminder that if you are into what we do and you want to support us, you can visit patreon.com slash the Lorehounds.

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[00:02:52] We've got a really fun welcoming community. We've got channels set up for all the different shows. We've got a thread for the fall of the house of Usher. So yeah, definitely check the show notes and join us over there. Alicia, you're joining me here on this one shot.

[00:03:07] David was thinking about doing this series with us. I think he wasn't quite sold on it, but I'm excited to talk about it with you. Yeah, he was worried he wouldn't be able to do it in a timely way, which is fine.

[00:03:19] It's fair. Now he can listen to us and we can tell him why he has to watch this show, because it was so good.

[00:03:24] I know. I know. So one shots, if you're new here are our one time conversations about shows that we don't either we don't want to or we can't cover in full. This is a binge show. It was always going to be a one shot.

[00:03:40] We've learned that it does not pay to cover binge shows episode by episode. So this is going to be our only conversation on this feed about it. But Alicia, first plug here, and I promise several you are doing a much fuller breakdown on your feed.

[00:03:57] Isn't that right? Yes. Well, I mean, it's going to be a longer episode. I'm going to be doing it with my sister, the person I grew up watching horror movies with.

[00:04:07] And that's going to be going into all of the details of what exactly what Poe's stories were used and how and the themes and stuff that were brought out of that. And, you know, just silly shenanigans with my sister as well.

[00:04:24] Oh, and also in the book club is going to get a full audio production versions of the Fall of the House of Usher and The Raven. Oh, very cool stories from Poe. Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited.

[00:04:38] So I I wanted to talk about this series with you because I knew I was going to love it from loving Mike Flanagan in the past. I think the only thing that didn't really hit for me was the Midnight Club.

[00:04:49] And even then it was a fun ride. It just wasn't as good as his other stuff. I liked Christopher Pike growing up, so I like the Midnight Club. OK, OK. I had no nostalgia for it, so I think that's where I was.

[00:05:01] I was not too into it. But anyway, the point is Mike Flanagan, A-plus all the time. And I am I was so looking forward to the series for such a long time.

[00:05:10] I think this was one of the most. Pre announced shows he had, like one of the most hyped up ones, because I think we heard about it last year, which is unusual for him. But it's also the last for Netflix. Oh, right. Right.

[00:05:25] Is do we know where he's going next? I mean, isn't it with Amazon? He's been talking about the adaptation for the Dark Tower. OK, OK. That's cool. I would watch that for sure.

[00:05:37] He would be perfect for that. I can't think of a single person on the planet who'd be more perfect to adapt that book. Oh, definitely. Yeah, definitely. Well, I'm excited to see what he does next. But I think we need to talk about this series first.

[00:05:50] So before we get into the meat of it, and there's a lot of meat, let's talk about what we thought about the series without spoilers. Can you give your spoiler free hot take?

[00:06:02] Sure. So I think I think I'm probably biased as a post super fan, but this is my favorite thing that he's done.

[00:06:10] I think it ties with Hill House, basically, because Hill House was scarier than this, which I know for some people, the fact this is less scary is probably a good thing for many people.

[00:06:21] For me, it could be scarier, but it just feels like his most mature work in terms of tying things together. Just weaving things together is the better word because there's a lot of craftsmanship on display here.

[00:06:36] And it's just the balance of timing and character development. And I just think he handled it very well. And I would give it like a 9.5 out of 10. Yeah, we talk a lot about the importance of a finale, especially with some recent shows we've covered.

[00:06:53] But this show, I think, lands the finale better than any of his other shows. I think the other shows have good finales. This has a great finale. And it really does, like you said, tie it all together. Yeah, agreed.

[00:07:08] I was also pretty hot on it. I think I agree with you. It's at least tied with Hill House. It might be higher up on my list than Hill House.

[00:07:17] Absolutely right that it's less scary. I would say for the Marilyn Arpukilas of the world who don't like gore, it is very gory. There's a lot of gore. I mean, it's like the end of every episode is going to be a gory moment.

[00:07:31] But that's also like the most important parts of the episode. That's when it all comes together. Right. So if you need to skip the gore, you're probably not going to like the show. So yeah, that would be my wording on this.

[00:07:44] I think that there's a lot of physical violence. There's very few jump scares. If that's something that bothers you a lot, there's a couple but not a lot. And I appreciate that because jump scares are widely regarded as the cheapest scare in horror.

[00:07:59] See, I didn't jump at all while watching but maybe, I don't know, maybe I just did inside. I think there's a couple. Yeah, people were saying that. I think there's just a couple where you see something show up very suddenly. Yeah, yeah.

[00:08:12] But I agree with you. If you're used to horror, it's nothing. But if you're not used to horror, then yes, there are a couple of jump scares. Right.

[00:08:19] Not a lot though. I think he doesn't lean on it. It's more about what I love about Mike Flanagan is he uses horror as like a palette of colors to paint a picture of the human experience. Right. Rather than focusing on the horror itself.

[00:08:35] Right. And it's more about the horror of humanity and the things that we do to each other. Right. Yeah, I mean, I think that this series does really stress like the harm that one person can do if they rise high enough. Right?

[00:08:49] Right. And the good too. That's the silver lining that he slips in there. Yeah, I think if you like succession and you like horror, you're going to really love this series. I like those better than succession but I'm inclined to because it's horror.

[00:09:05] I don't know. I like them both for different reasons but this is definitely very successory, especially in the first two episodes. I think it just feels really... Okay, this is the succession Halloween special. I can't remember who said this but someone called it succession meets final destination.

[00:09:21] Oh, I think somebody in our Discord did that. Yeah. That's really funny. I've also heard a lot of people call it the succession Halloween special which I think it's hilarious.

[00:09:28] Yeah. It's a really great series if you're not doing the Mike Flanagan thing and you like horror in any way, you got to get in on it.

[00:09:38] If you don't like horror, I think still maybe give it a shot unless you're like really, really sensitive to it or really, really sensitive to gore but overall, I would absolutely recommend this series to anyone who has any interest in any of this. Agreed. Absolutely.

[00:09:54] Why don't we talk a little bit about what the series is now that we gave our glowing reviews. It is largely based on the writings of Edgar Allan Poe. Do you want to talk a little bit about that Alicia since that's going to be your focus on your podcast?

[00:10:08] Yes, sure. Mike Flanagan with these specials that he's done every Halloween for Netflix until now, each one kind of focuses on the writings of one particular author and in this one I think he did the best job of really weaving it all together.

[00:10:25] Just the various different stories you can tell a bunch of them are episode titles but there's more in there and then he also weaves in real life details from Poe's life. He uses this and really it's like he's taking these themes that pop up again and again in Poe's writing that obviously also resonate with Mike Flanagan.

[00:10:44] These are the famous Flanagan monologues and stuff. That's where these are coming from. In the first episode I have to say they do give away what the setup of the series is going to be, what the structure is going to be.

[00:11:04] You go through and you meet these different elements of the family. The Raven and the fall of the house of Usher are the frameworks that they use for this story but that story, the fall of the house of Usher really only has three characters.

[00:11:23] He fills in a bunch of other characters taken from other pieces of Poe's life or writings and creates this tapestry story. I have to ask you John, as someone, I mean you're not as into Poe as I am I'm assuming.

[00:11:37] I'm not a Poe stan. Not that I don't like him, I just haven't really read a lot of him. Okay, but so a lot of these names and such are new for you. Correct, yeah. Did it all feel like it held together regardless?

[00:11:50] Yeah, definitely. I mean I have some of the cultural Poe. I knew the Raven is a big thing with Poe. I know some of his more famous stories like the knocking under the floorboards and things like that but I don't know really what his stories have to say.

[00:12:08] My wife knows more Poe than I do and she was filling me in a little bit along the way but not quite a lot so I think it really held together on its own.

[00:12:17] Okay, that's good to hear because I mean I've been hearing things from both, good things from both Poe fans and non-Poe fans although we were just hearing the discord that some people have their quibbles which is fair. Quibble away. Yeah, quibble away. That's what art is for.

[00:12:34] Exactly. All right, so it's based loosely I think on the writings of Edgar Allan Poe because it's based on one story. Right, it's based on a bunch of them woven together and it's very impressive to see how he does that.

[00:12:49] Yeah, that's super cool. That's super cool. All right, so I'm going to flip the switch on spoilers here. We are going to talk full spoilers about the series.

[00:12:58] I'm going to talk for another minute about it so that you can get out of here if you need to if you're driving and you need to click the pause button quick.

[00:13:06] We will talk full spoilers for the whole season so if you have not finished the season or you care about spoilers, I would get out now.

[00:13:14] I hope you enjoy the podcast if you're sticking with us and if you are not, I hope you come back after you finish the season.

[00:13:22] All right, spoilers abound. Alicia, I'm going to read a quick plot synopsis. It's going to be very high level and I'm going to leave out a lot of important things but we need to summarize this in a paragraph somehow.

[00:13:34] In 1979, Roderick and Madeline Usher make a deal with a mysterious bartender named Verna. They will achieve their dreams and never face any consequences until the moment before they would have died anyway. At that point, their bloodline would be taken from them as payment.

[00:13:51] In 2023, the bill comes due as Roderick watches his children and grandchild die one by one in mysterious accidents. The Usher twins and their attorney, Arthur Pym, fail to stop Verna from killing the family.

[00:14:05] When Roderick finds his granddaughter dead, he returns to his childhood home where he kills his sister and entombs her in the basement. He spends the rest of the evening giving his confession to prosecutor August DuPain.

[00:14:17] When he finishes the confession, Madeline awakens and blindly strangles Roderick as the house collapses on top of them. August escapes and retires, visiting the graves of the Ushers. When you make it linear like that, it's kind of a simple plot. Yeah.

[00:14:34] It's just he tells it in such a creative way that it doesn't feel that simple. No, you're engrossed in the details of the world because, you know, when after the first episode, basically it was clear.

[00:14:45] Okay, six of his kids die. How many episodes are there? One kid dies per episode. I can already tell as a Poe fan from their names who's dying in which episode and how. Oh really? That's interesting. So it wasn't like, you know, that I was surprised by things.

[00:14:59] But then again, I was, you know, because it was all about how it was woven together. And because everything's updated to the new age. Like, for instance, there's a lot about opium in Poe's writing because that was a huge thing in his day.

[00:15:14] And so that becomes pharma and cocaine. And, you know, they're just updating in these ways. Like Poe was very into cryptography. He helped fan that movement, the craze for that. And that becomes AI in this version is, I think. Interesting.

[00:15:35] I had assumed that they were just doing it in reverse birth order. Not, I didn't know that they was also tied to the Poe titles. So that's super interesting to me.

[00:15:45] It took me a few episodes to be like, oh, they're just going in reverse of the birth order. Yeah, I guess that was also intentional that they assigned them all of the Poe names where they belonged. Yeah. I mean, it's really like he put together this massive puzzle.

[00:15:59] Yes. Yeah. And it was, it felt really satisfying to be able to unravel it as it went through. And I have to credit my wife. She picked up on things a lot, a lot sooner than I did. Yeah. Mrs. Lorhan.

[00:16:15] I didn't pick up on the birth order thing, although I did know that Roderick had to be the last. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think the birth order thing was mine, but she's the one who came up with the idea of

[00:16:27] Verna being the devil, which I now know is debunked. But I like that idea still. And the seven deadly sins. That was her idea too. And I think that that is such a good theory and we'll go through it as we go in.

[00:16:42] But I'm sold on them being the seven deadly sins. Yeah. No, since you brought it up, it makes a lot of sense. And I had another theory as a Poe fanatic watching too. Okay.

[00:16:56] I'm really excited to hear that theory because I don't, again, I don't know a lot about Poe. What kind of Mike Flanagan are you familiar with, Alicia? Well, I've watched all of his Halloween stuff.

[00:17:08] But other than that, I have to say I've only watched the Doctor Sleep, you know, the sequel to The Shining. And yeah, so I just recently saw the Gerald's Game, which is a Mike Flanagan movie and it stars Carla Gugino and Bruce Greenwood. So, yeah.

[00:17:27] Have you seen that one? I haven't. I haven't. It was it came out, I think, before I really was into horror as much and I just haven't revisited it. It was a tough watch. They were both very good.

[00:17:42] But then it's kind of like I want to I'm going to I'm rewatching now The Fall of the House of Usher to prep for the part that I'm doing. And it's like cleansing my mind to be able to see Carla Gugino be this cool character

[00:17:57] of fate, as she put it herself, rather than yeah, I don't want to no spoilers for the other one. But she is a woman wronged over and over. Yeah. It's a good watch. Yeah. I mean, I've seen the trailer of it. I know what you're talking about.

[00:18:15] Definitely a much different character than Verna. Yeah. Yeah. So it just makes me think, though, about how Mike Flanagan takes like he in that case, he's taking is apparently a very good adaptation of that Stephen King story. And this is a very good adaptation of Poe's stories.

[00:18:34] So he's really great at adapting things for some reason, because they feel even though they have the same actors, they feel completely different. And because they're reflecting the tones and the messages of the original stories.

[00:18:48] But at the same time, you can see his signature, you know, just examining of the darkness of humanity that he writes in his storytelling. Yeah, he's so good at it. Speaking of Carla Gugino, can we talk about Verna? Mm hmm. Who is she?

[00:19:06] I mean, obviously you have the anagram there. Mm hmm. She's a raven. Yeah. And she even points that out in that you said an interview over. Yeah. Pretty soon before we we started recording and and shut down my theory completely on the devil thing.

[00:19:24] But at the end, we see her with like black feather sleeves and stuff, and she almost kind of morphs into the raven. Not quite on camera, but at one point the camera moves away and then the ravens there when it goes back. Right. Yeah.

[00:19:37] I mean, I buy her being the raven. But what is the raven then? You know? Yeah. Good question. Yeah. It's some sort of for me, you know, the thing I didn't reason why I didn't go with the devil theory is that I see every death she's offering.

[00:19:53] She's offering a choice like she she offers each kid. There's a way that you can do this better where you can do the right thing. And then, you know, as she explains to Freddie when he gets sliced in half, she's

[00:20:06] like, well, I could have done this any easy old way. But you had to go and pull your wife's teeth out. Yep. Yep. I could not believe he did that. And that was I think that might have been the darkest moment of the series for me. Yeah.

[00:20:20] Well, I was I was trying to match up his story to the pit in the pendulum, which is about a man being tortured by the Inquisition. And then I realized, oh, he's the Inquisition. And the Inquisition stops and the character lives. Interesting. Interesting.

[00:20:38] Verna, I was just thinking about this before this. Is she perhaps death itself? Yes. And she's she's you know, she she basically makes a deal with the Usher twins at the beginning. Yeah. Basically saying, yeah, I'll give you what you want, but you're giving me however many

[00:20:57] souls exist at the time of your death in your family line. They also made some demon at the crossroads references. So I don't know how literally we're meant to take that. Right. Yeah. They I think they said devil, right? Like the devil at the crossroads. Oh, yeah. Okay.

[00:21:15] Perhaps. So that's another reason why I was like, it has to be the devil they're alluding to and everything. But I guess if Carlo Gugino says it, she's an she's an authority on it. Yeah. She's older than humanity. So we know that. Right.

[00:21:28] And she keeps going you people, you, you're this, you know, very like removing herself from the equation. The scourge on the earth. Yeah. Right. Right. But what's interesting is if she's death, and if she wants more death, why is she showing

[00:21:44] Roderick all the death he caused and being very scolding? But I don't think that death wants more death. Like think also of the death from the Sandman. You know, she's not she's not like craving more souls. She it's it's it's her job. It's what she has to do.

[00:22:03] And so she tries to do it in the best way possible. And then, yeah, in Verna's case, you have to kind of agree like she tries to give lost Lenore at the end, the very best death possible. Right. But everyone else, she's like, you know what?

[00:22:17] You've earned a little worse. Like you were just a terrible person. So I'm just going to have a little fun. Right. Right. Yeah. She does give everybody an out and then Lenore. I like what she says.

[00:22:29] There's a lot about my job that I love, but this is not part. Right. So, yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. It's not about racking the numbers up. It's about exerting justice on these people. Right. Yeah.

[00:22:43] That's why I called I was thinking of her as like an angel of vengeance. As the series went on. Interesting. And there's just no vengeance to have against Lenore. Poor Lenore. No, poor Lenore. Lost Lenore.

[00:22:54] Oh, I knew as soon as like as soon as they said her name, the Raven is about a man mourning his lost Lenore. I'm like, oh, she dies in the last episode. Yeah, she sure did. She sure did. And I really like how Verna goes.

[00:23:07] Why do I have to explain to them the meaning of bloodline? Right. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I picked that up right away. But then again, it's because I also knew Lenore was going to die. So I know a lot of people on Twitter were like, what?

[00:23:20] I was hoping she would live. But by the time we got there, I was kind of convinced it wasn't going to happen anyway. It was still very sad when it happened, though.

[00:23:28] Yeah, it was very sad, but it was it was beautiful, you know, that she tells her in just the that was one of the speeches that really gave me some misty eyes. Yeah.

[00:23:40] And yeah, I really liked that, you know, as much as I criticized Mike Flanagan for his overuse of monologues sometimes that that's like basically my only complaint about Mike Flanagan is I think sometimes he gets a little self-indulgent on the monologues. That's one. One.

[00:23:55] He used them sparingly in the season. Which was great. And two, the only one that really bothered me in this season was the lemon one. I was like, ah, this is just kind of cringe to me. OK, I thought it was funny.

[00:24:05] But I know you like the marketing. Yeah. Yeah. I just I was just like, I don't care about this. The lemon one. I was like, move on. But but the Lenore one was really, really good. That was really beautiful. Like you said. Right. Yeah.

[00:24:22] And the use of post poetry throughout was just also chef's kiss. Yeah, I was assuming it was poetry, but I poetry. All right. But I couldn't I couldn't place it because I have poetry sounds like something the police right. That's funny.

[00:24:37] Now that we've talked a little bit about Verna and I don't think we're ever going to get to the answer of who she is. But can we talk about the ushers and the seven deadly sins theory? Yes, please. Breakdown. I see it before me.

[00:24:51] But break it down for the listeners, because I've decided that I'm completely in on this. OK, so if you're not familiar with Catholic mythology, there's this idea that there are seven deadly sins that all are like the worst possible sins.

[00:25:08] They're the traits of humanity that really get them into trouble. And, you know, in excess, all these things lead to lead to hell, basically. And I think and I think, Alicia, you're on board now. Yeah. That the ushers represent these sins.

[00:25:24] And part of this is that other than Roderick and Madeline, they all have a color assigned to them that shows up through their outfits and their their surroundings through their episodes, but will take over the screen by the moment of their death.

[00:25:41] And I thought that that was a really cool way. It was much better done than kaleidoscope. The colors actually meant something. Right. Which was very impressive to me. So the seven deadly sins are greed, sloth, envy, pride, gluttony, wrath and lust.

[00:25:58] And here's the way that I broke it down. And I will again say my wife, Maya Lorehand, she helped me break this down. We kind of debated which one was which for a while. Roderick and Madeline together, because they're twins and Verna love symmetry, they represent greed.

[00:26:15] Freddie is sloth. Tamerlane is envy. Victorine is pride. Leo is gluttony. Camille is wrath. Perry is lust. And with the colors, I went back to each death scene and I picked the color out. Freddie with sloth is dark blue. Tamerlane is lust. Camille with sloth is dark blue.

[00:26:38] Tamerlane with envy is green, which makes sense. Victorine with pride is orange. Leo with gluttony is yellow. You'll notice that he died next to a yellow car. Leo, I already said Leo. Camille with wrath is light blue. Perry with lust is red.

[00:26:57] And then when they when they're dead, Verna shows up and it washes out again. Yeah. No, it's interesting about the colors and trying to match them to the different sins because I had some years ago, I used to throw theme parties with a friend who has the same

[00:27:16] birthday and we did a seven deadly sins party and we tried to tell people what colors to wear and we just had to leave it open because there is no consensus other than green is envy. Yeah. Yeah, there really is no consensus.

[00:27:32] And I was like, what is what am I going to do with this? But I think he just wanted to differentiate them and I think he wanted to have each one have this sort of theme.

[00:27:41] I think it really reinforces the theme of each one has a different primary sin. And that's not to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not to say that they don't all have parts of the other deadly sins in them.

[00:27:52] But I think that these sins that I've laid out here are the things that really defined their character failings. Right, right. No, I agree. When I after we had this conversation, when I was like looking at the sins and the characters

[00:28:08] side by side, I couldn't break it down any differently. You were you were a little skeptical of some of the other. So I'm curious what your have you. I'm curious what your assignments were. I don't know. Have you changed?

[00:28:21] Because I feel like you've changed some of them, too. I think one thing I was skeptical about was Roderick and Madeline sharing like a sin because there does seem to be a difference between them. But in the end of the day, it just doesn't fit if they don't.

[00:28:33] So yeah. And I think it's flavors of greed, you know, like she's the ambition greed and he's the hoarding greed. Yeah, I think I mean, I think Roderick is the character that's supposed to be the stand

[00:28:44] in for Poe himself in this in, you know, in the sense that his mother died when he was very young and he had a fraught relationship with his father and, you know, aspects of his personality, the being a lady's man kind of thing. And yeah, I don't know.

[00:29:06] Yeah. So I maybe I couldn't see past that to see. I think like his his sins to me were more complex, I guess it was hard for me to like boil it down to one thing. OK, yeah, I think that's fair.

[00:29:23] I think Roderick certainly has quite a lot of failings and is the most melancholy and reflective in the end. Right, right. Yeah, I guess. And he's worse than the last moment in this case.

[00:29:36] Yeah, I'm going to make my pitch anyway because I think it'll be good conversation for why they all have have their sins. I think Madeline and Roderick are pretty clear. You know, they they made a deal so that they would have financial success in exchange for

[00:29:50] their right lines. Right. That's pretty greedy to me. Right. Freddie, I picked sloth because even though he exhibits some wrath and some envy, he in the end, his his death is related to he failed to get the building knocked down in times that prevent Perry's death.

[00:30:09] He neglected his wife and then he dies paralyzed and unable to move laying on the ground. So he's sloth. Yeah, that's fair, especially the whole building thing really makes it ring true for me. Yeah. And and I did change victory. I swapped victory and Roderick and Madeline.

[00:30:29] The reason I did that is I I at first was really attached to making Roderick and Madeline pride because pride in almost every media that examines the seven deadly sins like Fullmetal Alchemist and whatnot, pride is always like the leader.

[00:30:46] Right. And I just my brain wanted it to be the head is pride, but I just think it's unsupportable. I think that's what I was objecting to when you showed me the first list, because I

[00:30:57] did think that victory was pride because, you know, Verna says to her, it's not about it's not about doing the good. It's about getting the recognition for the good. Right. I think I think that that's right.

[00:31:07] I think that that's where my my error was, but it's corrected now. Tamerlane Tamerlane is envy. I mean, obviously she's extremely jealous of Carla Gugino, who wouldn't be. And yeah, you know, she she throws her husband out because of the jealousy.

[00:31:27] She she hurts Juno because of the jealousy. She can't see past it. In the end, the envy consumes her and she gets killed by the very rage that is boiling up through it. And like with things like her husband, she's the one who's creating the envy out of

[00:31:43] nothing. You know, he doesn't even want to do these dates with the prostitutes. You know, what a weird concept, which that honestly I thought it was it was both funny and horrifying to watch. And I I thought it was just really creative of Mike Flanagan.

[00:32:03] Yeah, I think so. Her episode is called Gold Bug, but I think actually it's more based off the story of William Wilson, which is about someone seeing a doppelganger and getting more and more angry with them and like causing because they see the doppelganger, they're

[00:32:20] ruining their own life. And then they eventually see it in the mirror and realize it's themselves. Hmm. Interesting. Victorine, I think we talked about pride. You know, you you mentioned she's like, you know, she she can't admit that this is

[00:32:36] a failure, right? She can't admit that her project has failed. And she even goes so far as to to hoard, not hoard, to to forge the signatures of her of her partner and to commit her to something that she's not comfortable with.

[00:32:53] I think that is and she can't even admit that she killed her partner in the end. She's like, no, I made her heartbeat. Right. That was the spookiest. I think that was the spookiest death for me. Yeah. I mean, I think the we'll get to Perry.

[00:33:05] That death was the most memorable, you know, very cool death, so to speak, in a weird, gross way. But yeah, this was the most heartbreaking, I think. Yeah. Although do you notice almost all of their partners died? Oh, yeah.

[00:33:22] It's the price of being involved with an usher, I guess. Yeah. Their partners died. Except for except for Leo's. But we don't know what happens to him. And and obviously Freddy's survives at the last minute. Didn't Tamerlane's partner live? Oh, yeah. True. I guess. Yeah.

[00:33:40] And I think only Victorine's partner. I think only Victorine's partner died. Well, Leo got his partners killed. And yeah, maybe you're right. Did Leo's partner die? Yeah. The sorry, not Leo. Perry. Perry, Perry, Perry. Oh, OK. OK. So Perry's partner died. Partners died. Is that it?

[00:34:04] And Victorine, I guess. Oh, yeah. And Victorine. OK. So Perry and Victorine. Yeah, I guess. OK, wait. Camille. Camille sent her assistance away. She didn't have any significant others. That's true. That's true. Yeah. OK. OK. I guess I was overthinking the deaths based on Perry and Victorine.

[00:34:21] Yeah, I think most of them walked away unscathed. Even even even Freddy's wife went away eventually. Yeah, but she had a real rough time. Yeah, she did. I mean, I have to wonder what kind of recovery that is after having all your skin burned off.

[00:34:33] All right. Well, Verna's Verna promises she recovers. OK, yeah. Enough. Yeah. She she does good. Yeah. Yeah. She she does enough to start a foundation and help a lot of people. Yeah. I'm going down the list. Leo Gluttony addicted to drugs.

[00:34:52] I had him on the on the platter for sloth for a little bit, but I think he ended up being gluttony. He you know, he's overdoing the drugs. It makes him go crazy and kill the cat. And then that's what sets us all into motion.

[00:35:08] Yeah, I had the same thing where I started him in sloth. But then, you know, this seems more like it. Yeah. Camille. Wrath. And this was one of the weakest alignments, I thought, because there was some lust going on and envy going on.

[00:35:26] But I think in the end, what killed her was this need for dirt against her sister. Right. This need to to get one. I got mine right. That's what she says at the moment of her death. Right, exactly. So I think she. So I think she.

[00:35:42] So I was thinking envy for her also, but I think it's more clear with Tammy. Yeah. Yeah. Lastly, Perry, I think lust is a pretty easy assignment for him. He's literally throwing a sex party to die. Right. Yeah. I think that one left a little room for debate.

[00:35:59] Yeah. And there's obviously the red everywhere, which is probably one of the stronger color associations. All right. That's that's my argument. I'm leaving it there. You've got an alternative reading, though, with this hop frog. Well, it's not it's not they can work together.

[00:36:17] But what I was thinking of is because there was the gesture that popped up a few times, which actually comes from the cask of Amontillado, which is, you know, how the fate of Griswold ends. But because that it got hop frog stuck in my head.

[00:36:31] But although I can understand why he skipped that story, he skipped a lot of stories. There's a lot of post stories.

[00:36:37] But and this is a story about a dwarf who's kidnapped and taken to another kingdom where the king is just hurls abuse at him all the time, dresses him up as a jester. But there's another kidnapped dwarf woman. She, however, is very beautiful.

[00:36:54] And so she and she dances for them. And she's a favorite. And her friendship with Hop Frog is his only solace until one day the king does something abusive to her. And Hop Frog's like, well, you know what? That's it. We're done.

[00:37:09] And he plays a trick on the king. Now, the king does at least acknowledge Hop Frog is clever. So asks for costume advice to a party. And he gets all of the king and his seven council members to dress up as he says it's dressing up as orangutans.

[00:37:29] But what they're going to do is put on tight fitting clothes covered in tar and flax and chain them all up. And Hop Frog will lead them, lead them in by the chain like he's caught a bunch of orangutans.

[00:37:40] And it's a hit at the party as he walks in. But then Hop Frog quickly puts it on like attaches it to the ceiling and raises them up so that they're like a chandelier over the party and lights them on fire. And yeah, it's a wow.

[00:37:56] Yeah. Burns them all alive above the party. And he and his friend run away. So, OK. So in this case, Roderick is the king and his sister and his kids are his council of seven. And Verna is Hop Frog in a way. OK. All right.

[00:38:20] That's pretty interesting, too. But it could. Yeah, both can be both can be intended and probably neither. I don't know.

[00:38:30] I like this. I like adding this here, especially because we have the the the jester going on, which which also you said ties with the cask of a month. A Montellano or Montellano?

[00:38:43] Yeah. Yeah. There's the character who gets welled up in that story is also dressed as a jester at a party. Can I ask you, is the the alcohol that they're consuming in the last episode and when you know what?

[00:38:57] Well, in the narration, in the armchairs and while they make the deal, the the cognac, is that. Any Poe?

[00:39:06] So probably what that could be linked to is that there was someone who for like 60 years was called the Poe Toaster and he would go and visit the grave of Poe on his birthday every year and leave three red roses and a bottle of cognac.

[00:39:24] Yeah. So it's probably a nod to that is my best guess. Interesting. Interesting. Well, I like this hot frog theory. The I actually really liked the way that the cask of a Montellano thing worked out in the show.

[00:39:40] It was really interesting to see what they did, how how cold the twins were about it. Yeah, that was chilling to me, especially Madeline. I think Madeline is deeply sociopathic. Yes, absolutely. Does not have any empathy for anybody. Roderick, he changed over this whole experience.

[00:40:00] Do you I mean, you can also see the way his relationship with his wife, Annabelle Lee, changed over this too. But that was really the moment when he's walling him in where it's like, OK, this is when he became the adult Roderick that we meet.

[00:40:13] Yeah, yeah. He was kind before that. Mm hmm. He had he had at least some sense of moral compass before that. Right. And then towards the end, he kind of returns a little bit to himself and is self-reflective and is like, what did I what did I become?

[00:40:28] Yeah. Yeah. So do you think do you think Madeline's at fault? Madeline, Madeline, whatever. I think that they both are. He's his own person, too. Mm hmm. She certainly did goad him into a lot of bad stuff.

[00:40:45] But I don't think it's an excuse to be a passive person. Right. If you're if you are, you know, just because you're told to commit a crime doesn't mean you didn't commit the crime. Right. So I think they both share culpability. I think she's scarier than him.

[00:41:00] I would rather go up against him than her just because she has no remorse for anything. I think I think Roderick is very remorseful for making this deal. I think he blame you know, he even admits he's like, I killed them. I did this.

[00:41:17] And Madeline's like, oh, fuck us too now. You know, it's like literally just has it gets an IUD because she's like, yeah, I took it seriously. I don't feel like having any of the consequences. You know, honestly, she's a smart one.

[00:41:30] But yeah, she she's smart, but she's so cold and calculating that it's just terrifying. Yeah, it's true. It's true. And yeah, especially they had that contrast in the flashbacks between her and Annabelle Lee. Yeah, like the angel and the devil on Roderick's shoulder and the devil one. Right.

[00:41:51] Right. Yeah, it's very sad. Poor Annabelle Lee. I guess they they implied that she had committed suicide at some point after losing her children to Roderick. Yep. Oh, man. Yeah. You see another partner that died. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of deaths, Lenore. Mm hmm.

[00:42:13] She doesn't really fit into the sins. I think my my best theory for who she is is what could have been. You know, she's the best of us. He says that like a million times. She's the best of us.

[00:42:27] And I think the point is when you have all these deadly sins corrupting your life, you lose the best of yourself. You're the best of yourself goes down with it. And she was the best of all of them. Right.

[00:42:45] Yeah, she took the best of all of them, all their best traits. And she still goes down because of their failures. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I see some some themes from poetry like Maury is her mother.

[00:43:01] And that comes from a poem or sorry, a story called Morella. And it involves a woman who who dies and in childbirth. She had been severely weakened before that. And the child ends up growing and look growing up and looking more and more like her mother.

[00:43:20] And it's freaking the father out. And he doesn't even name her until her 10th birthday. And he takes her to get baptized. And the priest asks for the name. And at that moment, he says Morella and the little girl dies. And there's just just by like naming.

[00:43:36] And she said, yeah, he says Morella. And she says, I am here. And then she passes away. So there's like a lot of themes like that where women morph into another and someone carry the children, carry the sin of the parents sort of thing. Yeah. Wow.

[00:43:54] I think in my hop frog analogy, maybe she's tripetta, the pretty dancing lady dwarf. But in that story, she does make it away with hop frog. So she gets a happier ending in that version. OK. OK.

[00:44:14] What do you think Mike Flanagan is trying to say with this series since we're wrapping up our discussion?

[00:44:19] I mean, I think to me, it felt a lot like a tribute, but also like, hey, look at these ideas that this guy was writing about in the 1800s that are still so apical to the world today. That we still we're still suffering.

[00:44:39] We're still dooming ourselves to the same sins. I think, yeah, I think it's meant to be casting a mirror back on the viewer. It's a lot of Mike Flanagan work is what do you what do you think? Yeah, it's interesting.

[00:44:53] I'm not an adherent to the beliefs of the seven deadly sins like I don't know. I don't have any religious ties to them, but I think that they are poetically very relevant. You know, they are.

[00:45:06] It's it's it's sort of like negative human traits that you should watch in yourself. Right. I think all of these are legitimate critiques of the human psyche.

[00:45:16] And I think Lenore might be the lesson there, which is the best of you won't won't make it out if you if you let yourself fall to these other things, fall to these negative traits.

[00:45:29] Yeah, he seems to be casting a spotlight on consequences, like especially at the end, talking about how many thousands the opioid epidemic has killed. Right. Right. Yeah, that was a very cool visual effect and very horrifying. Mm hmm.

[00:45:47] And you see Roderick and Madeline throughout the series try to justify the whole thing, right? Like, oh, they want they don't want to feel pain and they blame us. And it's right, it's it finally forces Roderick to confront his demons and confront the consequences of his actions.

[00:46:04] I think you're right. Consequences really the main point of this series, especially I think you even have in the deal. Verna says you'll never face any legal consequences until the moment of your death. Right. A very whole life. You'll never face any legal consequences.

[00:46:20] Right. Yeah, because when you don't face consequence, that's really the worst of yourself comes out. Right. And August DuPain has to pay the price for them. Yes. This guy's career was ruined by them.

[00:46:34] Yeah. I mean, I also found it very interesting that Pym, that he is one of the only basically he and DuPain are the two who say no to Verna. But they still suffer the consequences.

[00:46:51] You know, she bribed them. She's like, if you say yes to me, then I'll give you these outs or, you know, this glory. And both of them are like, now what's the point? Or it's against my very moral fiber.

[00:47:05] And they end up suffering for it to a certain degree, especially Pym, I guess. Yeah. But DuPain, he says, you know, now I get to spend time with my family. He's a rich man. Right. That's that's the thing.

[00:47:15] Yeah. But Pym, I guess he's just like, yeah, you know, I like the way he says, I'm going to roll with the hand I have. Yeah. Also, can we just say Mark Hamill was amazing in the series? Yeah. He was almost unrecognizable. I know.

[00:47:31] I wonder if that heard his voice. I forgot that he was in this before I started watching. And I was like, is that Mark Hamill? Like, I couldn't believe it. He did such a good job.

[00:47:41] Like you said, he was unrecognizable. The character was so different than the other ones I've seen him play. I mean, he usually plays either, you know, Luke Skywalker, you know, happy go lucky or he's the Joker. Right. He's this kooky guy.

[00:47:55] I mean, I think he was a fun archetype. My one thing I was saying on the discord is that I heard more about how interesting he was than me seeing it. But I actually don't really mind that at all.

[00:48:07] He just he wasn't the most interesting character to me. But I was more of a device. He added he added a nice flavor, a nice seasoning to the mix. Yeah. I really liked the scene where he tries to kill Verna and Verna is like, oh, I'm sorry.

[00:48:25] I had to play with you, but it was just so fun to watch you work. Very good stuff. Very good. She must have a good time. She steps on the body. Right. And then right there.

[00:48:36] That was I really have to praise the way they economically used visual effects in this show. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they really did. They definitely went more practical than than they needed to. And I am glad that they did. I'm glad practical effects are back in fashion.

[00:48:53] I think part of it is need because of the backlog. But part of it is I realize that it had cost. But part of it is I think people are realizing they're like, oh, there's a reason we used to do effects the way we did.

[00:49:06] You know, we don't need to do everything in digital effects. Right. Yeah. The best the best that I see is often a blending of the two. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, I love this series. I hope people had a fun time talking with us about it.

[00:49:23] We don't have any series. We don't have any feedback, but there's plenty of chat over there. There's plenty of people that are on the discord. So I hope you'll join us there.

[00:49:33] And of course, you can get even more discussion about this on Alicia's will shift Dusty that you can find in the show notes. Alicia, let's wrap this up quick. Let's talk programming notes. Why don't you give the spiel about will shift dust since you're here? Yes.

[00:49:48] So we are going to be covering you'll find also in the feed a episode where I'm talking with Anthony about of properly Howard fame. But we're on the electric book Lou podcast talking about Poe's influence on George R.

[00:50:06] Martin and in the book club, you'll find the reading of both the fall of the House of Usher and the Raven with sound effects.

[00:50:15] And then you'll find a soon I think like next week in the main feed, there'll be the breakdown of the fall of the House of Usher. And then the next thing up for will shift dust is coverage of the new Hugh Howie adaptation beacon 23. Boy, how he's busy.

[00:50:32] He's getting all of his works adapted now. Yeah, no smart man. Good for him. I mean, it's it makes for good TV. So his writing is inherently cinematic. So yeah, and he seems like a really down to earth nice guy. So I'm glad he's seeing success. Right.

[00:50:48] Agreed on properly Howard. Of course, they just finished their remake season. But you can go back, listen to all of those. You can either watch the movies with them or just laugh along as they joke about them.

[00:50:59] I was in tears laughing at the thing when they covered that because they just they have Steve has so many good jokes about it. Anthony. Anthony hops right in with them, too.

[00:51:11] We just had a conversation with them on our new severance feed, which you can find in the show notes here as well. That was hilarious. Yeah, we'll be covering we Anthony asked us if you had to be severed like in the show severance where your consciousness is split.

[00:51:26] Would you rather be severed for all poops, all meals or all sex? And the answers were very funny. We had a great time. We'll be covering severance season two with them. And before that, they're going to cover all of severance season one on a rewatch on that feed.

[00:51:42] So definitely go and subscribe to there for us. We are covering Loki. I say we but it's you, Alicia and right. But you but you are caught up in liking it, right? I'm caught up. I got to see if I can make a recording work.

[00:51:57] Maybe I'll send in a voicemail. I'll be a classic. But you've been one back to the MCU enough that you started watching other things, too. I did. I'm on Iron Man one right now. I'm watching it timeline order right now. Good man. Yeah, we're trying over here.

[00:52:13] I'm trying to I'm trying to put on my cape again. And yeah, so you're covering Loki, which is a really good season so far. I'm really enjoying it. And we are we just recorded an Earthsea episode. So to Hanu part one is coming out soon.

[00:52:27] You and David and John recorded a one shot on the creator of the new movie. So that'll be out soon. Silmarillion stories are coming. Second breakfast for patrons and plenty of other stuff.

[00:52:39] I think I think we're kind of back on the on the horse now that we're done with our triple coverage of September. The blessings have passed triple blessings. Yep. All right, Alicia. I just want to thank our patrons before we go.

[00:52:52] We have our lore masters, some Martian Cyrus Mark H. Michael G. Michelle E. David W. Brian P. Nick W. S.C. Peter O.H. Bettina W. Adam S. Nancy M. Lavinia T. Dove 71. Brian 80 63. Frederick H. Sarah L. Gareth C. Eric F. Matthew M. Sarah M. DJ Miwa.

[00:53:11] Andra B. Kwong You. Laura G. Dead Eye Jedi. Bob Nathan T. Alex V. Aaron T. Subzero and Adrian. Boy, that list is getting longer. We love to see it.

[00:53:23] And we're really grateful to all our patrons, which allow us to do these fun one shots, you know, get a little bit more programming in than we would be able to without you. So thank you again for all your support.

[00:53:35] Alicia been a super fun time talking to Mike Flanagan with you, and I hope people will join you on your feed. Yes. If you liked the retelling of Poe stories and want to know what is going on with the world, please let us know.

[00:53:51] And if you want to know what it's like, if you hear my voice in double, then we'll see you on the bullshit. All right. We'll see you then. OK, David, this is where we're supposed to choose a side, green or black.

[00:54:31] John, my soul is as black as night. Your turn. I am black for life. So we're not fighting. I thought this is where HBO wanted us to pick sides and fight and stuff.

[00:54:46] Don't worry. I'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about on the pod. But we seem to agree on one thing. We both really like this show. The politics, the drama, the lore. It was made for the lore hounds.

[00:54:57] And since we just finished recapping season one, we couldn't be more ready to defend our black queen in the Dance of the Dragons.

[00:55:04] And with the season pass option in Supercast, listeners can get early ad free access to each weekly scene by scene deep dive, plus our custom show guide with all the characters and connections.

[00:55:14] See you in the lore hounds podcast feed each week for our dragon fire hot, but probably positive takes. The Lore Hounds House of the Dragon coverage is also safe for team green consumption.

[00:55:24] Side effects may include a deeper understanding of dragon lore, a heartened conflict with itself and an inescapable urge to read the book Fire and Blood by George R.R. Martin. Dragon seeds may experience burning.