Shōgun - E03 - Tomorrow is Tomorrow

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Shogun Podcast where the Lorehounds your guides to the political intrigues of feudal Japan. I'm Jon. And I'm Alicia and this is our coverage for Episode 3 titled Tomorrow is Tomorrow of the FX-Street.

[00:00:30] This is a limited series, Shogun. Now streaming on Hulu. We'll be covering this episode by Major Character Arc talking about our favorite moments and answering listener feedback.

[00:01:00] If you are interested in supporting the Lorehounds community, check us out on Patreon or subscribe using our new Supercast platform. Supercast is just like Patreon but built especially for podcasters. You can get early and add free episodes of all our podcasts. You can also get access to the Community Built Online Character Guide. I think we're calling it The Rutter now. The show's a rutter since that's what Black Thorn was keeping on his channel.

[00:01:30] It's a lot of fun. A lot of great resources and I notice a lot of people coming in for this show so I think we are finding a new audience with people who are enjoying Shogun.

[00:01:45] Absolutely. It seems to be when people are picking up on by word of mouth. People saw it and I know it's quality but there's so many shows and now it's just the sheer volume of people saying watch this show.

[00:01:55] Right, okay. We will have more information about supporting the community as well as notes about our upcoming podcast schedule at the end of the podcast.

[00:02:04] Cool. So Alicia, you're not David.

[00:02:07] I am not.

[00:02:09] Let's just address that at the front here. David will be back next week hopefully. He's down with EOLED coronavirus so he's not feeling well.

[00:02:18] Alicia was a hero and stepped into replace David and maybe I'll just keep her here. You never know what might happen next week.

[00:02:26] Yeah, I'm excited to talk about this show because it's really one of the best ones we're going to get this year.

[00:02:32] Yeah, I mean, I saw you talking about it. I was like, I think Alicia would be a good fill in.

[00:02:36] So let's, I really appreciate you making the time. I know it's really late where you are and time is relative.

[00:02:42] And tomorrow is tomorrow.

[00:02:44] And tomorrow it's Japan.

[00:02:46] Japan, it's tomorrow.

[00:02:48] So what do you think of the episode?

[00:02:49] Yeah, I mean, I thought this was very much a moving pieces into place episode.

[00:02:53] Like you could really see pieces moving across the chessboard or go board something.

[00:02:57] But we by doing that, we got to see more of like the complicated web of relationships.

[00:03:03] And yeah, I keep teasing you about Black Thorn but actually my favorite character is Marieco.

[00:03:09] So yeah, if anything happens to her, we all riot. I think that's a great.

[00:03:13] I really like Mariko. Yeah.

[00:03:15] Yeah, I'm sorry, Mariko.

[00:03:16] And yeah, I'm kind of glad to be a non reader on this one.

[00:03:20] Actually, it seems like everyone I know has read the book, but I like not knowing whether this is going history spoilers aside.

[00:03:26] I've read like the first 150 pages and then I had like an insanely busy week this week.

[00:03:30] And I just couldn't read any of it, but I really liked the book so far, but I'm like in the show even more.

[00:03:36] I think one of the things the show does is one, you know, surprisingly because it's 12 hundred, it's only a single book.

[00:03:43] It's 1200 pages, but we've seen the Wheel of Time condensing enough.

[00:03:47] But the show really just keeps things moving.

[00:03:50] Like they did a very good job of dropping plotlines that didn't matter.

[00:03:55] Like for example, we're not with... We're not in the pit very long with Black Thorn's crew.

[00:04:01] And that's like a couple chapters in the book. It's just it's forever.

[00:04:06] Okay.

[00:04:07] And I just think that it's... They're doing a very smart condensing of everything.

[00:04:13] I mean, yeah. If you don't see them again after that in the book, then there's not really a reason to invest that much time in letting us know them.

[00:04:22] I mean, I don't know if you do see them or not because again, I have not gotten that far in at this point, but...

[00:04:27] Yeah. I just think that they're doing a really good job adapting this.

[00:04:30] I mean, as much as you read me about Black Thorn, I do really like the character. I just think the voice.

[00:04:36] I don't like the stick, but I do like the character.

[00:04:39] And I think other than the voice, the actor is doing a great job portraying him.

[00:04:42] But I think that it's the beginning of a transformation for him, you know?

[00:04:46] Okay.

[00:04:47] That he's starting because I was listening to him talking on the FX podcast and he's...

[00:04:53] He's roughing it up to be this character.

[00:04:57] And I think that he's going to... We're gonna see him refine in his movements in his way of speaking as we go along.

[00:05:03] But I was saying that last time I saw him was in the latest adaptation of Jane Austen's persuasion.

[00:05:10] And he was miscast there.

[00:05:13] So this...

[00:05:14] Okay.

[00:05:15] Seeing him here and like, yes, this is the character you should play because he does that puppy dog thing.

[00:05:20] So well, you know, that he's this kind of charming but making a mess puppy dog to the jet.

[00:05:27] That's funny because this episode I felt like he was giving the vibe of Charlie Day going wildcard bitches.

[00:05:32] But he saved the David doing that.

[00:05:37] I know, I know.

[00:05:38] And I love that.

[00:05:39] Like that's why this character is growing on me.

[00:05:41] The more we go through this.

[00:05:43] Yeah.

[00:05:44] But what I'm living for in this show is the politics and I am loving the whole council deliberation stuff.

[00:05:53] Torinaga's scheming even Marco.

[00:05:56] I just feel like there's something going on there that we don't know.

[00:05:59] Like there's so many...

[00:06:00] Oh yeah.

[00:06:01] She's got legs.

[00:06:02] Pressure's building.

[00:06:04] Yeah.

[00:06:05] That makes me feel like the show is going somewhere great.

[00:06:08] Yeah.

[00:06:09] Oh, can I though just make one little...

[00:06:11] You guys already brought up the whole lack of purchasing but with you talking about investing in the ship characters.

[00:06:17] You know, I didn't realize until it was mentioned on the podcast.

[00:06:20] Of course, they're all Dutch except for him but I didn't know because they were all speaking English to each other anyway.

[00:06:25] Okay, I'm done.

[00:06:26] I'm done bitching about that.

[00:06:28] Yeah, yeah.

[00:06:29] He's just the rogue Englishman.

[00:06:32] Well, I'm really liking the show.

[00:06:34] It sounds like you are too.

[00:06:35] Shall we get into some of the main plots?

[00:06:39] Because I think that'll be a better way for us to center ourselves in this show.

[00:06:43] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:06:44] All right.

[00:06:45] So I want to sort of talk about the different characters and what they go through here.

[00:06:48] So we've got Yabashige.

[00:06:50] And what an interesting character that I can't read at all.

[00:06:54] You know, he starts off writing a will.

[00:06:57] Whereas like last episode he felt like he thought he was hot shit.

[00:07:01] Right.

[00:07:02] And this episode he was ready to die.

[00:07:04] But I can't tell if he's a moral or not or I guess my definition...

[00:07:09] What is my definition of morality?

[00:07:11] Because that's probably irrelevant to him.

[00:07:13] I do think he is...

[00:07:15] I don't want to diagnose him but it sounds like he lacks empathy.

[00:07:19] Right?

[00:07:20] Like he's...

[00:07:21] I think there's a lot of people to feel something.

[00:07:23] Yeah, I think there's a lot of jealousy because he's lower born.

[00:07:28] Yeah, yeah.

[00:07:29] I like that he is smart enough to ask for the right thing that is an obtainable prize from Tornaga where he goes,

[00:07:41] well, what did he offer you?

[00:07:42] Well, he offered me your seat.

[00:07:44] And in his head, I think Yabashige knows I'm not high-born enough for this seat.

[00:07:50] Right.

[00:07:51] So instead he goes, I just want a bigger thief.

[00:07:54] Mm-hmm.

[00:07:55] I just want this thief.

[00:07:56] And Tornaga says, yeah, you do this for me and we'll do it.

[00:08:00] And I thought that was a really great exchange.

[00:08:02] And that's the kind of dialogue that I'm really like...

[00:08:06] My mouth is watering for this dialogue.

[00:08:09] Yeah.

[00:08:10] I've been leading for this dialogue for like a year since we had our last house of the dragon kind of stuff.

[00:08:16] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:08:17] I don't want to compare it to Game of Thrones, but I can't help but think of varies with his character.

[00:08:22] Mm-hmm.

[00:08:23] Okay, I buy that.

[00:08:25] I think he might have a little finger in him too.

[00:08:27] Okay, yeah, fair enough.

[00:08:29] Because he's got that like...

[00:08:31] I could snap and betray you at any moment kind of thing.

[00:08:35] Exactly.

[00:08:36] Whereas there is...

[00:08:37] Yeah, Varys will betray you, but he'll do it over years.

[00:08:40] That's true.

[00:08:41] And Varys, I do think, you know, had his biggest concern really was the kingdom it seems,

[00:08:46] where his little finger's biggest concern itself.

[00:08:49] Right, and I think...

[00:08:50] I guess that's a good thing.

[00:08:51] Yeah, I think...

[00:08:52] Yeah, but she gets closer to little finger in that regard.

[00:08:54] Yeah.

[00:08:55] It seems very self-interested.

[00:08:56] Yeah, it's true.

[00:08:57] But then again, maybe we will...

[00:09:00] I'm hoping that we uncover more layers with him and start to see what's driving these motivations more.

[00:09:06] Yeah.

[00:09:07] And I think we will.

[00:09:08] This is the kind of show that's absolutely setting that up.

[00:09:11] Yeah, so my question is...

[00:09:13] There's this line that Ishiito has where he's basically like...

[00:09:16] You know, Yabishigai told me he was on my side.

[00:09:19] Now he's going, carting everyone away, like he betrayed me.

[00:09:22] And I'm thinking, I wonder if he did betray him or if he's playing a longer game?

[00:09:26] Like, he'll betray Tornaga at the right moment.

[00:09:29] I was just watching a documentary, The Pigeon Tunnel about Spies.

[00:09:35] So I'm like, double-aid in, baby.

[00:09:37] I genuinely couldn't tell you who he's loyal to right now.

[00:09:40] Well, I mean, I think he's loyal to himself, definitely.

[00:09:43] Sure.

[00:09:44] He's probably...

[00:09:45] We'll probably see someone in his life that has his loyalty and is driving motivation.

[00:09:51] He's the guy who says, I don't remember what show this is from.

[00:09:55] But somebody said, I'm playing both sides that way.

[00:09:57] I'm always on top.

[00:09:58] Yeah.

[00:09:59] Absolutely.

[00:10:00] Yeah, so relatedly to Yabishigai, Tornaga, is really...

[00:10:06] This is like...

[00:10:07] He's shining now this episode.

[00:10:09] He's really doing a lot.

[00:10:10] He's my other favorite.

[00:10:11] Yeah.

[00:10:12] And I've seen him in other things like Westworld, but I don't know.

[00:10:16] This feels like such a breakthrough role for him.

[00:10:20] Absolutely.

[00:10:21] What's your audience at least?

[00:10:22] Yeah.

[00:10:23] He immediately became clear.

[00:10:25] You know, when you have the first episode, I didn't know who are the main characters yet.

[00:10:29] Obviously, the one white guy, fine.

[00:10:32] The pretty woman.

[00:10:34] But then he just, his presence before the plot even showed it.

[00:10:38] You knew like, oh, that's the main character.

[00:10:40] And it's so crazy.

[00:10:41] It's listening to him in interviews.

[00:10:42] I don't know why it surprises me.

[00:10:44] But he has a completely different personality.

[00:10:46] Like he's very lively and you know, very...

[00:10:50] A little bit goofy, you know?

[00:10:52] And he's also one of the producers on the show.

[00:10:55] It's very involved in bringing this show to life.

[00:10:58] That's...

[00:10:59] So much respect for the actor now.

[00:11:01] It's very cool.

[00:11:02] It's very cool to see this happen.

[00:11:04] On the character himself, he's getting pretty sneaky now, isn't he?

[00:11:08] And I think we saw that last episode start to bud with a whole...

[00:11:12] You know, I think he knows Yabishiga saved the...

[00:11:16] Neon-jen saved the pilot.

[00:11:18] But he's willing to overlook that because it served his own needs.

[00:11:22] Right.

[00:11:23] And this whole idea of when he sees that America understands that he's sowing discord between

[00:11:30] the other council members by saving the pilot.

[00:11:34] Like, as much as we want...

[00:11:37] I think Tornag is an interesting character because he feels like the wise older man who's

[00:11:43] very kind and actually cares.

[00:11:46] But then his words to his son make it sound like he doesn't trust anybody.

[00:11:52] And that he's...

[00:11:54] Like he speaks like he's similar to Yabishiga.

[00:11:57] But then there's moments where you see a glimmer of sort of fondness for other people.

[00:12:02] Yeah, and that's where the actor is also so brilliant because you just see that twinkle in his eyes

[00:12:07] that he would never allow to touch his face.

[00:12:10] But it's there, you still see it.

[00:12:12] Yeah, and so that makes it hard not to like him even though there's no reason for us to think that he's anymore kind or moral than most of the other people.

[00:12:23] Right.

[00:12:24] And so that's the difference in reality between living under his rule or you should use rule.

[00:12:29] Exactly.

[00:12:30] Yeah, that is a good question.

[00:12:31] I hope they answer.

[00:12:32] I would love to see more of the common little two.

[00:12:35] Right, right.

[00:12:36] Well, I do wonder why...

[00:12:39] I understand why he saved Black Thorn from a political standpoint.

[00:12:43] But by the end of the episode, I'm like this guy has a soft spot for Black Thorn.

[00:12:46] He likes this guy.

[00:12:48] Yeah, well, especially by the end of the episode, yeah.

[00:12:51] I mean, like, what was it that did that?

[00:12:54] Was it that he tried to defend him during the assassination attempt?

[00:12:58] Yeah.

[00:12:59] He's been...

[00:13:00] Yeah, that he keeps solving his problems, you know, kept him from getting caught going through the gate, you know, the whole situation with the boats suggesting the boat and then...

[00:13:11] And then I think probably the clincher was when he made it through on the other boat.

[00:13:17] He looked at me and he's like, you know, that is a capable guy.

[00:13:20] That's not just some foreign idiot.

[00:13:22] Yeah.

[00:13:23] Oh, I love...

[00:13:24] I feel like most of the people around Black Thorn kind of just admire his wild card nonsense.

[00:13:32] They're just like, oh, that's funny.

[00:13:34] Yeah.

[00:13:35] That's cool.

[00:13:36] He got away with it.

[00:13:37] Crazy foreigners.

[00:13:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:13:39] Well, we got to stop calling him barbarian, though.

[00:13:41] He's got a new rank by the end of this episode.

[00:13:44] Exactly.

[00:13:45] What do you think about his... about Tora Nagas relationship with his son?

[00:13:49] I mean, because I think that's one of the...

[00:13:51] He has twinkles of fondness, but I think there's societal strictures that make him behave a certain way.

[00:14:00] Yeah, I don't know.

[00:14:02] Because I think he would be able to put his son in charge of the army if he had to.

[00:14:09] I don't think there's anything against that in custom.

[00:14:13] No, no, no, no.

[00:14:14] He genuinely... it seems like he's... I think he's basically like, I'm going to pick the best person for the job.

[00:14:20] Which is fair?

[00:14:21] Or is he trying to keep Yabashiga close?

[00:14:25] Yeah, or is he also trying to check his son in a way?

[00:14:29] Yeah, maybe he's like, okay, well, I'm going to have somebody lead this experimental unit.

[00:14:33] Right.

[00:14:34] And I don't want the person at the helm being my only heir.

[00:14:37] I don't know if that is his only heir, but you know what I mean?

[00:14:40] In one of his heirs.

[00:14:41] He's a man who gave up the top spot because he knew that it would put him in danger.

[00:14:49] So he's a strategic man.

[00:14:51] He's suspicious because he's learned... that's how he survives.

[00:14:54] And it served him well, so...

[00:14:56] Oh, I like that a lot.

[00:14:58] I like the idea of he's sort of trying to teach his son how to lay below the radar.

[00:15:05] You know, it's funny.

[00:15:06] I play Magic the Gathering.

[00:15:08] I talk about the son's second breakfast, but you know, I play a lot of commanders.

[00:15:11] It's four player, five player, whatever you can find.

[00:15:14] And the whole...

[00:15:16] One of the main parts of it is you got to not be the threat until you are the threat.

[00:15:21] Right?

[00:15:22] You have to lay low until you can actually do something, until you can actually go on the attack.

[00:15:28] Yeah.

[00:15:29] And I think that that's kind of Toronaga's philosophy with a lot of these things.

[00:15:33] He says in the first episode, I think, if we go to war now, we die.

[00:15:37] Yeah.

[00:15:38] And so now he's like, okay, I have this wild card who can teach us something that is unexpected for Ishii Doshbibu.

[00:15:46] I'm going to try to train an army in that and see what happens.

[00:15:51] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:15:52] I mean, the fresh idea often wins the war.

[00:15:54] Yeah.

[00:15:55] I mean, you know, I can't tell you how many times I heard growing up in American history class.

[00:16:01] Oh, we won the American Revolution because the Americans were willing to use guerrilla tactics

[00:16:06] and the British were too formal.

[00:16:08] And I don't know how propaganda is that is and how oversimplify that is.

[00:16:12] But then people say that the Romans defeated the Celts for the opposite reason.

[00:16:17] Yeah.

[00:16:18] It's funny.

[00:16:19] It's funny.

[00:16:20] But you know what I mean?

[00:16:21] There is some argument, some conventional wisdom of introducing some kind of unexpected tactics.

[00:16:30] Can help win a war against odds?

[00:16:33] Absolutely.

[00:16:34] I mean, yeah, just the element of surprise is already a huge weapon.

[00:16:38] But then you have if you have a weapon that they haven't built the defenses for because they haven't thought to, they didn't know they needed to.

[00:16:46] Right.

[00:16:47] Right.

[00:16:48] Well, speaking of things that nobody has a defense to, let's talk about John Blackthorn.

[00:16:53] That's a good impression.

[00:16:55] Oh, thank you.

[00:16:56] Oh, fuck this place.

[00:16:58] That's that's basically him.

[00:17:01] So John Blackthorn, I just wrote wild card here.

[00:17:04] I've said it like three times in the podcast already.

[00:17:06] But man, he kind of charmed me when he just decided to act like an idiot.

[00:17:12] The way he goes, no one's going to stop him.

[00:17:14] No one's going to stop him.

[00:17:16] Yeah, exactly.

[00:17:17] Yeah.

[00:17:18] Like coming to the realization, like I have to be the one to do something which is kind of crazy.

[00:17:21] I was just saying, I love the way that he did it.

[00:17:23] I love he's like, the honor of women.

[00:17:27] The honor of women.

[00:17:29] Do you not do this in your country?

[00:17:32] Yeah.

[00:17:33] Really, really funny.

[00:17:34] The grandstanding was totally believable I think.

[00:17:36] They were like, what is this barbarian yelling about?

[00:17:39] Yeah.

[00:17:40] My question is did Tonyaga have a backup plan?

[00:17:42] Yeah, exactly.

[00:17:43] Like if John Blackthorn didn't do something, what was going to happen?

[00:17:46] Yeah, exactly.

[00:17:47] Like he was just, he's like, nobody's going to do something.

[00:17:49] He's just going to be like, oh, hey, oopsies.

[00:17:52] Now we all die.

[00:17:54] Yeah, I mean, he was outnumbered there, right?

[00:17:56] Like they could have just.

[00:17:57] Yeah, but also wasn't, didn't they say that it wouldn't be just him put to the death,

[00:18:01] but also the others with him?

[00:18:03] Yeah, yikes.

[00:18:04] Good thing they had a John Blackthorn, eh?

[00:18:07] Good thing indeed.

[00:18:08] Yeah, they were, I mean, they would have found him.

[00:18:10] Like if there he was going to the next car, he's like, get away from the women.

[00:18:15] Yeah, exactly.

[00:18:16] Not this woman.

[00:18:17] She's especially ugly.

[00:18:20] I feel like there's a Monty Python sketch in there.

[00:18:24] Somewhere, it's there.

[00:18:26] Blackthorn, I will say held his own during the fight of this episode.

[00:18:32] He's going up against, you know, Tran Warriors and Mr. Pilot over here is, I think he had

[00:18:37] a spear and he was just kind of doing his thing.

[00:18:40] No, I mean, he's definitely proving himself.

[00:18:43] He's, yeah, proving that he's, he does it a little bit differently but it's effective.

[00:18:48] Yeah, no, I like that he's not just kind of sitting there waiting for them to solve the

[00:18:52] fight problem but he is actively being like, I am serving you, Toranaga.

[00:18:57] Yeah.

[00:18:58] Sama?

[00:18:59] Sorry.

[00:19:00] I almost forgot my Sama.

[00:19:01] I wrote down a couple comments that people made about Blackthorn about his cleverness if

[00:19:06] you don't mind the, sure, me reading them out.

[00:19:08] So I took one, I called it Blackthorn propaganda corner and I took one from the discord.

[00:19:14] This is Brian Rode.

[00:19:16] I've been watching Blackthorn closely.

[00:19:19] He seems to fly by the seat of his pants most of the time, however he's smart.

[00:19:23] You see this in episode three, even walking, he hates the sandals.

[00:19:26] You see him walking gingerly in the castle scene as he approaches Ishii Dosh Samurai with

[00:19:31] his kimono and sandals in the book complains about how he misses his boots.

[00:19:36] With the boat scene, he acts and is able to use his wits, kudos to Jarvis on this.

[00:19:41] And then my friend Heather said, like I saw somebody else say this episode really belonged

[00:19:47] to Cosmo and Blackthorn.

[00:19:49] His willingness to embrace being the stinky freak in this new to him world brings such

[00:19:54] life into the character, but you never fully forget that this man can be dangerous.

[00:19:58] He is incredibly smart, picking up so quickly on bits of Japanese language and expectations,

[00:20:03] seeing how a situation will go and responding immediately to it.

[00:20:07] He's tenacious.

[00:20:08] Charming.

[00:20:09] And when you combine that with his will to survive, you have a powder.

[00:20:13] I like that a lot.

[00:20:14] I like that a lot.

[00:20:15] Yeah, he's unpredictable, but yet you're right.

[00:20:20] Absolutely Heather is that he's competent in the weirdest way.

[00:20:24] He's almost like the most competent and competent person ever.

[00:20:27] Yeah, exactly.

[00:20:28] He's just running around.

[00:20:29] He's not easy to competent, but he must have made it.

[00:20:31] So he made it around the world when the other ships failed.

[00:20:36] And when so many people in his crew died.

[00:20:39] Right, yeah, exactly.

[00:20:41] So I also wanted to talk about his sort of frenemy relationship with Rod Briekez.

[00:20:46] What is going on there?

[00:20:48] What is going on?

[00:20:49] I love it.

[00:20:50] Favorite relationship in the show.

[00:20:52] I love when Rod Briekez finds out he's alive.

[00:20:55] He's like, he's alive.

[00:20:57] What the fuck?

[00:20:58] He's just like that was great.

[00:21:02] It is such a begrudging respect between them.

[00:21:06] Yeah, and when they're both sort of racing almost with the two ships, like the way that

[00:21:11] they're looking at each other.

[00:21:13] And it's great.

[00:21:14] It's great when Black Thorns like, look, I've done all I can.

[00:21:18] It's up to you now.

[00:21:19] Either run me off or don't, but take one.

[00:21:22] And that was really nice.

[00:21:24] But Rod Briekez, he had a life debt, you know?

[00:21:27] Yeah, that's true.

[00:21:28] That's true.

[00:21:29] The title of Hottomoto.

[00:21:31] I actually looked this up that Black Thorns gets at the end.

[00:21:36] This was a real title, this title, Hottomoto, it means Guardian of the Banner and it was

[00:21:42] a high ranking samurai in direct service of the Tokugawa group in feudal Japan.

[00:21:48] And that is what Torinaga's group is based on.

[00:21:51] Because all of these, you know, it's loosely based on real history.

[00:21:55] And so I'm pretty sure all of the council members are based on real leaders of that

[00:22:01] time.

[00:22:02] And so Torinaga's group has this specific title.

[00:22:06] It's interesting, other ones had different named Vassals.

[00:22:12] They were the Go-Kick-In.

[00:22:15] Go-Kennon, sorry.

[00:22:16] So the Torinaga family had like their own special guardians of the banner that were

[00:22:22] like a level above the regular servants, the regular Vassals.

[00:22:25] So I thought that's kind of cool that he gave him basically like the highest thing he

[00:22:29] possibly could have given him in that moment.

[00:22:31] Abby was saying on the discord that there's a good reason why everyone's jaws dropped

[00:22:37] at that moment.

[00:22:38] That was a huge thing.

[00:22:39] Right, right.

[00:22:40] Especially to someone who he's supposed to be condemning to death eventually.

[00:22:43] Right.

[00:22:44] It's going to take a long time to translate that though.

[00:22:46] Yeah.

[00:22:47] But the book might fall into the sea.

[00:22:49] Right.

[00:22:50] So I'm not feeling that something's the book's going to just disappear.

[00:22:53] Oh no, there was a fire.

[00:22:55] It's like true detective.

[00:22:56] There was just there was just a flood.

[00:22:58] Yeah, there was a fire in the fire pit and the book just fell into it.

[00:23:04] That's you know we're going to put that in the safety regulations.

[00:23:08] Don't translate next to a fire.

[00:23:12] But I mean isn't it also when they translated then he has records of where all of these

[00:23:19] Spanish outposts are I mean sorry Portuguese outposts.

[00:23:23] Yes he does.

[00:23:24] He does so that's another part and I think he can sort of point them to that.

[00:23:28] Maybe they he says okay well these pages are good.

[00:23:31] Those pages I don't know they got lost somewhere.

[00:23:33] Yeah, I'm sure honestly they'll figure something out.

[00:23:37] He's this is the protagonist of the series.

[00:23:38] He's not dying an episode four.

[00:23:40] Right.

[00:23:41] Well hey Ned Stark may he rest there.

[00:23:45] That's fair.

[00:23:47] Man that really was a game changing moment in that show and where do we end up anyway.

[00:23:56] I just want to say about training Toronaga's army did you like when you know Toronaga first

[00:24:05] asks Black Thorne to train the army and he's like well I'm just a pilot and then he's

[00:24:08] like wait wait this is my ticket to not die.

[00:24:12] Right.

[00:24:13] Yes I can train them.

[00:24:14] And Marico only I think translates the second part like she doesn't express his doubts.

[00:24:20] Right.

[00:24:21] It's been very interesting to watch how the characters like her and the Portuguese priest

[00:24:29] and stuff how they translate for these characters because there's a lot of politics wrapped

[00:24:34] up in the words that they choose to translate or not.

[00:24:38] Yeah and what they add to it too.

[00:24:40] I'll get to that in Marico section two.

[00:24:44] But for now I just want to be I wanted to mention his little moment of you know what

[00:24:49] I'm going to think better of this and I'm not going to undersell myself.

[00:24:52] I am the king of all combat.

[00:24:55] And then the diving and racing at the end that was so charming that's just such an uplifting

[00:25:00] way to end the episode.

[00:25:02] What do you think was the point of the dive was it just like how high if when I say jump

[00:25:08] you say how high kind of thing.

[00:25:10] I think it was a mixture of things.

[00:25:11] I think there was an element of like showing control but also I think there was he was genuinely

[00:25:17] wanting to learn and he was going to make sure that he had thoroughly studied the procedure

[00:25:23] before he made a fool of himself.

[00:25:26] Interesting.

[00:25:27] Well I like that.

[00:25:28] Do you think maybe we could take a quick break?

[00:25:30] I don't know why I'm asking you we're taking a break and when we get back we're going

[00:25:35] to hear David's hot take thoughts which I forgot to play in the intro and then we'll

[00:25:40] move on to Mariko.

[00:25:54] And we're back so in the intro David out of the kindness of his heart on his COVID bed

[00:26:01] he decided to record us a couple of messages.

[00:26:05] One of them has his hot takes for the episode so we're going to listen to that here.

[00:26:09] Hey John Alicia I just wanted to send in my quick thoughts on the episode overall I

[00:26:16] thought it was a good episode but something was a little different in this and I think

[00:26:22] it's thrown my enjoyment off just a little bit not sure if I can put my fingers right

[00:26:26] on it.

[00:26:28] Maybe it was the fast slow tempo changes, the boat chase and the negotiation just kind

[00:26:34] of felt a little off relative to the rest of the episode.

[00:26:39] The diving and the swimming was kind of weird but I totally get what it's about for the

[00:26:43] purposes of the story there are certainly some not great CGI but whatever about that.

[00:26:49] So I thought it was a really good episode three for the series, lots of good character

[00:26:57] building moments, world building moments really moves the story forward in a number of

[00:27:05] ways.

[00:27:06] I finished watching the episode two of the 1980 meaning series and remember these are

[00:27:11] like two and three hour long episodes themselves so it's really interesting to see where the

[00:27:18] two overlap and where they diverge regardless of where they do that they're still hitting

[00:27:24] all the major beats and they're doing that on the FX series while at the same time

[00:27:30] re-centering the story and I really think that this is passing the shippy test in a nice

[00:27:35] way so that we were shifting our gaze and were more balanced centered gaze but at the

[00:27:43] same time the story is absolutely hitting those plot points which must be coming from

[00:27:48] the book and so I think if all three of these are weaving together in this way it's a really

[00:27:55] great job on the script that they've done that's pretty impressive.

[00:28:00] I think in terms of adding to the conversation about what the show is bringing forward sort

[00:28:07] of philosophically I think we added something interesting here which is individualism versus

[00:28:13] service to the greater good where black dawn is saying you know I'm just living for myself

[00:28:21] where he's discovering a society where people live within a kind of hierarchy even though

[00:28:28] he comes from one of those in the sense of loyalty to royal families and five lords that

[00:28:36] own your land that kind of stuff.

[00:28:39] Anyway I think it's an interesting examination of those social structures.

[00:28:45] I thought what was interesting to along with that is these questions of feet and destiny

[00:28:50] so we add that into the conversation but then all at the same time we get this very interesting

[00:28:54] line from Toronaga to his son in the game of friends and enemies you only have yourself.

[00:29:02] Well thanks David for calling in I guess it's weird to hear you as a feedbacker instead

[00:29:08] of a full podcast or but we'll have you back soon.

[00:29:12] What do you think about David's takes I think he was more lukewarm about the episode than

[00:29:15] both of us.

[00:29:16] I can see why because one thing is that I did I do feel like it was a slider episode

[00:29:22] but I was okay with that because it's like a transitional episode and it's the first

[00:29:26] two episodes like we're establishing this world heavy hitters and now this one is kind

[00:29:31] of like okay let's just linger in a little while get to know the landscape but also

[00:29:36] another thing I brought this up with David and he agreed that there's a certain

[00:29:40] doon effect going on right now where we just saw this movie that we think is like the

[00:29:45] greatest thing and everything else is slightly dulled in person but that that effect

[00:29:51] well I haven't seen do and so I can't I can't be affected by that just yet but I

[00:29:57] can see that I get it sometimes you just like you know you play a really good video game

[00:30:01] or you're really really good book and the next thing that you read is not going to be

[00:30:04] good because you're too busy comparing it.

[00:30:08] I think this wasn't supposed to there's a certain I won't do in spoilers but I'll say there's

[00:30:13] a certain scene with character in a worm and I was thinking about that scene during the

[00:30:18] whole ship scene and I was like if I hadn't just seen that would be more excited about

[00:30:21] the ship scene but I'm like but it's not supposed to be the same level of stakes at this

[00:30:24] point right right you know this is a different don't compare yeah as you know I've read

[00:30:30] the Wheel of Time as a view and I feel like hanging out with characters that I like is

[00:30:35] something that I appeals to me and I think that that this episode does a lot of that

[00:30:39] and that's this episode was a good hang for sure yeah and that's one reason why I like

[00:30:43] it yeah and I really feel like I'm getting to know it was the same thing in true detective

[00:30:49] I know some people really like the opening episodes better but I I was saying I was

[00:30:53] more into it episodes three and on because that was where I started to get to know the

[00:30:57] characters and for me characters are the heart of the stories and I want to care about

[00:31:02] the characters before I can care about anything else yeah absolutely no I agree with that

[00:31:06] take I still really need to watch true detective it was pretty good I'm not now that I've

[00:31:10] watched Shogun I don't think true detectives going on my top oh see you got the dulling

[00:31:15] of the shine effect we'll see we'll see I mean Shogun's really good again we're on

[00:31:19] episode three if Ted yeah absolutely we just want to get a game of throwing situation

[00:31:23] where it plummets but I hope not I hope it's really good to the end I hate the finale less

[00:31:28] but I just think I know that I knew that was George R. Martin's intention they just got

[00:31:33] there too quickly and I think if we have these writers here and not of course it's based

[00:31:39] on a finished novel too so you can underestimate that it's no where it's going so and it'll

[00:31:45] take it'll take the proper pacing I will forever be salty about the ending of Game of Thrones

[00:31:50] that's however we're not talking about the hundred yeah I'm sorry well anyway back to Shogun

[00:31:58] we've got to talk about Marico so poor Buntaro how do we feel here I think it's a complicated

[00:32:06] relationship because just her face was what captivated me most during his whole I'm gonna be

[00:32:13] the hero moment yeah because you couldn't quite read and I don't think she really knew if she's

[00:32:18] like oh he's I'm losing him is that good is that bad I'm losing a protector in a way but also

[00:32:25] I'm losing someone who I didn't have a good relationship with but is my husband and all of these

[00:32:30] complicated feelings were in her luck right I certainly think it was a loveless marriage I mean

[00:32:35] even her describing her describing Buntaro to Black Thorn earlier it just felt like she was reciting

[00:32:41] like generic like he's a good guy you know it's it's just generic he's a nice guy kind of thing

[00:32:47] instead of oh I really love him when we met it was magical this you know like you can tell when

[00:32:52] someone's really enamored with somebody that they're talking right now she's not in and she just

[00:32:56] wasn't no she lit up though when she was asking and telling about kids she loves her kids and he

[00:33:03] and she wanted to hear about his yeah and Buntaro was you know reprimanding her for being too affectionate

[00:33:09] with her son so that's definitely gonna put a wedge between the Miva Moore all right Buntaro poor

[00:33:15] kind of Buntaro do you think like he might have been taken prisoner and we'll see him again

[00:33:19] something like that no no you think that's like he's dead I his narrative purpose is ended

[00:33:25] unless he pops up with two messing up later yeah with Black Thorn in America or right having

[00:33:33] their six children right they are absolutely signaling that right like they're absolutely

[00:33:38] so I was gonna bring it up to like each other that they are you know people are shipping them

[00:33:43] and of course now she's a widow so mm-hmm she's how long does Black Thorn have to wait before he asks

[00:33:49] if she's single for she he asks about the pillowing yeah about pillowing again oh man so

[00:33:57] so I didn't write this in the outline but I really wanted to talk about the scene where

[00:34:03] they have the doctor there and and she explains pillowing and then she goes would you prefer a male

[00:34:08] companion instead she adds that yeah where the hell am I just apparently in the book he was

[00:34:14] even more like you know offended by that but they say toe to toe I actually did a deep dive on

[00:34:22] homosexuality in Japan mm-hmm and acceptance of it it sounds like from what I read on Wikipedia

[00:34:28] which is when I say a deep dive I mean I read Wikipedia right it sounds like it was actually pretty

[00:34:33] accepted until the major era so until like the late 1800s it was pretty accepted now Japan has

[00:34:41] issues like Japan does not currently allow same sex marriage or civil union you can get like a

[00:34:46] certificate in certain cities and certain you know like in Shibuya and things like that but it's

[00:34:51] an issue today still for LGBTQ individuals until like the late 1800s it was not a big issue

[00:34:58] which is super interesting uh and there was sort of an importing of western homophobia in Japan yeah

[00:35:05] well I think I mean I'm of the opinion that homophobia is kind of something you have to learn because

[00:35:09] it is yeah just a normal thing that happens amongst you know all animals basically humans just right

[00:35:16] you kind of have to learn to think it's weird like like for instance we think it's weird if in America

[00:35:24] men wear skirts but in Scotland that's you know kill to tradition that's just TUSA yeah yeah

[00:35:30] yeah uh but it's interesting because you know obviously at this time England and

[00:35:36] Amsterdam are still not very accepting of homosexuality but Blackthorns coming over here and he's

[00:35:41] like where the hell am I when when she goes oh do you want him like she just asked casually right oh do

[00:35:46] you prefer a man yeah but is also for instance a lot of like sexism and a lot of prejudices

[00:35:52] were learned from the Romans who were learned it from the Christians who you know it's just people

[00:35:59] passing on these prejudices yeah super interesting stuff the the history of prejudice but

[00:36:05] that was uh that was a funny conversation though when when yeah uh and calling him a warlock to

[00:36:11] that was really good if he's not a warlock he's surely a pimple see he gets all the best lines

[00:36:18] he does get all the best lines he's the one who makes me laugh the most also like because it's in

[00:36:24] English I can tell the way he's inflecting it which right this is where as in Japanese Japanese first

[00:36:30] of all has very it's much flatter than English like you it's very like to do do do do do do do do do do

[00:36:36] do do do that which is intentional that's the style yeah that's not emotional yeah uh but it's

[00:36:42] it's harder for me to understand humor in that right um other than just reading the lines yeah I think

[00:36:47] so Abby was bringing up about the poetry in the Japanese that isn't quite translating and

[00:36:54] in the second episode of the FX podcast they talked about how difficult it is to translate from

[00:37:01] the Japanese into the English so I just I wish it makes me wish I knew some Japanese because

[00:37:08] wouldn't that be great it would be great if I could just download languages my head matrix style

[00:37:13] yep for sure I'm still wondering what's going on with that death 14 years ago

[00:37:17] I want to know more of her history that Tornaga brought up and I'm really curious if Black

[00:37:25] Thorn will successfully make her distrust the church because she's smart yeah she's really smart

[00:37:31] and I think she kind of does distrust the church already I mean I think she feels like a lot of

[00:37:36] religious people where they're like well I believe in the religion I'm not a fan of the institution

[00:37:42] I think a lot of people in recent memory have felt that way and it seems like Mariko might be there

[00:37:48] already well I mean with that's literally what a Protestant is so I think I see him swaying

[00:37:54] her over to like you know it's still it's a different kind of Christian but without the foibles

[00:38:00] of the Catholic kind of the Papis says he calls them always a good day when you can use the word for

[00:38:05] me it's interesting because obviously when it comes to the Dutch versus the Portuguese I know

[00:38:11] how that ends but it's still very interesting to see how it plays out yeah yeah definitely

[00:38:18] so let's go on to the council I just wanted to sort of talk about the political movements in this

[00:38:24] episode so we've got Tornaga resigning at the end with Hiramatsu reminding the council that they

[00:38:31] need five votes to impeach him so automatically buying himself time that's always doing there right

[00:38:36] because they'll get a fifth number they just got to figure it out very smart to buy himself

[00:38:40] time so they can't just go hunt them down right now and Ado yeah or in the fishing village that

[00:38:45] they're in well yeah and to get out of there obviously yeah yeah yeah yeah but I mean they wouldn't

[00:38:49] let him leave even if he's right so it's good that he got out so Tornaga is now playing the council

[00:38:56] from two sides right he's created friction just by saving the pilot saving the on Jim but he also

[00:39:04] is trying to get the church now to turn Ono and Kiyama to his side right which is fascinating

[00:39:12] and by putting the church there do you think Tornaga is going to try to convert Christianity

[00:39:18] even if just in name I do think that that's where this is going just also

[00:39:23] he's I think black for thorns gonna be an accident the accidental missionary you know that's not

[00:39:29] his intention at all but for political reasons and also for his clearly budding romance Mariko

[00:39:36] he's going to wind up representing the Protestant theology and is the only one around so

[00:39:43] somebody's got to do right unless unless we can get back to that pastor from the priest from the prison

[00:39:50] right and not that wasn't the guy who got beheaded in the first episode wasn't he a priest too

[00:39:56] oh maybe anyway he's he's not helping anybody no he's not no he's not I didn't mention it before

[00:40:03] but Tornaga did what a masterful negotiation with the Portuguese there where you know the Portuguese

[00:40:11] were ready to just sell off and consequences be damned and he's like I will give you political

[00:40:18] cover I guess his last act as or does he still retain that that uh ambassador ship really

[00:40:26] does he retain the foreign affairs if he's not on the council anymore I don't know I mean I guess

[00:40:31] he's just such a powerful figure that uh he can he can just get away with things stuff like that

[00:40:36] but then it's also if if they're roaming after him anyway then who cares right and

[00:40:42] then he goes okay well that's not enough I also need you to go and turn two of the council members

[00:40:49] right to my side they say okay but we want we want black thorn yeah and he's like sure

[00:40:55] but then black thorn just goes fuck this and yeah yeah I mean I wonder if he actually thought

[00:41:01] that he was giving him up or if he had a suspicion that black thorn would find his own way through

[00:41:08] yeah I don't know because again he did have a fondness for him but I think at that point he would

[00:41:11] have been willing to give him up if he had to like he'd rather sure for sure have his head

[00:41:16] then black thorn so I think if I think he gave black thorn an opportunity by having him on the other

[00:41:23] boat but that's about it yeah exactly I guess it was he was willing to roll the dice there's a

[00:41:28] risk he was willing to take right how do you how do you say mad thing dov yandee say tov

[00:41:33] yes again it's time to roll the dice if you're not a wheel of time fan become one

[00:41:39] all right so why don't we talk about our favorite moments shall we bring David back in to give his

[00:41:44] absolutely so I wanted to shout out really quick the what I thought was the best scene in the

[00:41:50] episode and that was when tornauga was giving respect to buntaro it felt really earned and it felt

[00:41:58] really emotional I thought the both of the actors did an excellent job of communicating the sacrifice

[00:42:05] play and and the respect in the honor that was given between the two of them but I think it's

[00:42:10] pretty important that we recognize that we didn't see him die on screen so I'm assuming that

[00:42:18] there's going to be more to come for buntaro oh one other thing earlier on in the episodes we got

[00:42:25] to see a lingering shot of tadeoshi's samurai swords remember he was the guy who ended his line

[00:42:34] there's a long lingering shot on on his swords and I think that that is going to clueless into

[00:42:39] something I think for the dune heads if I said the word jammis you know folks might get a clue on that

[00:42:46] all right thanks and we'll talk to you soon feel better david even though you're not here I'll tell

[00:42:52] you if you listen to the podcast later yeah I thought that that was a cool scene selection too any

[00:42:59] favorite scenes for you elisha um I mean we did kind of mention them but the ones that I first

[00:43:05] think of is just that look that marico gives buntaro when he's standing on the dock and you know

[00:43:12] you can just see all the complex thoughts running through her head and so yeah the other one is

[00:43:16] definitely black though and defending the honor of women super good super good I I kind of mentioned

[00:43:23] before too but I really loved the sort of budding bromance between rod reas and black thorne

[00:43:29] and I really like the diving scene it was a very whole yeah I was gonna bring that up to you

[00:43:34] a really great close to the episode yeah absolutely it was just the nice because you know sometimes

[00:43:39] you need I remember Marilyn talking about this about the need for downtime in between the harrowing

[00:43:45] moments and this was just a moment of a spite right you need to go to farmer maggots right

[00:43:51] much from patch in between or tom bombed hills house right right exactly you need somebody that's

[00:43:58] about it for the episode any other thoughts before we go to listener feedback no I'm just uh I'm

[00:44:03] strapped in I'm really excited to see where this season goes obviously it's doing quite well so

[00:44:09] I wonder yeah how far this series is uh going to go into the books yeah me too for sure all right

[00:44:16] so we've got some listener feedback Alicia if people want to write in or send in a voicemail they can

[00:44:21] go to the lorehounds.com go to the contact form uh page and uh send in contact form or a voicemail you

[00:44:29] also send an email to shogunatthelorehounds.com or go to our discord server and you can get all that

[00:44:36] in the show notes we already did David's voicemails but Abby also sent in a voicemail so let's hear

[00:44:42] that now it's my first time using the voicemail hello I'm Abby I apologize for my strongest

[00:44:49] and European European accent about that's right here you also struggle with the Japanese hence this

[00:44:54] message is not about the particular episode rather linguistic input not to be that person but we

[00:45:01] have 10 episodes with some names and expressions popping up frequently so it would be good if we get

[00:45:07] some of these pronouns correctly I'm aware that I'm in the privileged position of understanding both

[00:45:13] languages spoken on screen and not relying exclusively on subtitles but well firstly the title

[00:45:22] shogun it's not split into show and guns it's made up of two kanji characters meaning leader

[00:45:30] and army hence translated in English as general but of course this is a bit reductive as shogun

[00:45:36] is in fact a shortened version of say tai shogun and innocence a general of generals and the

[00:45:44] position meaning the government when being something like a prime minister slash dictator of the

[00:45:51] so ladies and gentlemen repeat after me shogun shogun next one is toranaga toranaga

[00:46:02] and we sure don't want to earn his disapproval we saw what happens one step out of line

[00:46:07] and you apologize by tip-toe also the lady mariko will be addressed going forward as mariko sama

[00:46:16] as she herself demanded mariko sama thank you well looking forward to hearing your thoughts

[00:46:23] about the show and I hope I can contribute with perspective of a foreigner immersed in the culture

[00:46:29] all by the modern version for 27 years thanks a lot bye hi abi sama thank you very much for that

[00:46:38] always good to learn the pronunciation i know david and i were like debating it in the first

[00:46:41] episodes over the really appreciate that i think it's it's tricky because when you learn a

[00:46:48] foreign language in the u.s which we do very poorly they generally put you into a romantic language

[00:46:53] like spanish or italian or french and i know with like at least spanish they're like always do

[00:46:59] the second syllable unless there's an accent you know you want to emphasize that and in japanese

[00:47:03] it's supposed to be very even or you know shogun like it's one sort of flowing thing it's so different

[00:47:11] to wrap your head around that so i appreciate you spilling some of them out for me yeah i know it's

[00:47:15] super interesting also to hear about the linguistics and the meanings of these words yes for sure

[00:47:21] shogun sounds like a pretty pretty cool title to have over here yeah and we we apologize for

[00:47:27] not giving over your mariko sama the proper respect this is it's true it's true we'll do better

[00:47:33] i promise so nancy emrodin nancy em a lore master uh provides us a mini history lesson

[00:47:41] i listened to you episode one and two podcasts this morning and david and john asked for deep dive

[00:47:47] on macao as my parents were born in portugal i thought i would take this on macao started as a

[00:47:55] port of refuge fresh water and food from merchant sailors until it was settled by refugees fleeing

[00:48:01] the mongol invaders in twelve seventy seven in the fifteenth century the powerful turkish empire

[00:48:07] blocked the overland route to the east this was the catalyst for portuguese expeditions to find a

[00:48:13] sea route to india the portuguese reached china in fifteen thirteen in fifteen seventeen portugal's

[00:48:21] king manual the first commissioned a diplomatic and trade mission to guang zhi i hope that i

[00:48:28] pronounce that remotely right uh the mission was rejected by the chinese main court one reason

[00:48:34] being reports of misbehavior by the portuguese elsewhere in china uh in fifteen twenty one and

[00:48:41] fifteen twenty two several more portuguese ships were driven away by the now hostile ming

[00:48:46] authorities good relations resumed in the nineteen forties when the portuguese helped china eliminate

[00:48:52] coastal pirates and the ming court finally gave consent for a permanent and official portuguese

[00:48:59] trade based at macao okay so we learned how we got to macao right with the portuguese so that's

[00:49:04] a good start any thoughts on that elisha before i move on my my knowledge of this era is very

[00:49:11] Dutch focused so all of this back stuff before the dutch come in is kind of new to me i haven't really

[00:49:18] learned much about it so it's super interesting well income the dutch uh the guang zhi macao

[00:49:25] naga sake route was particularly profitable because the portuguese acted as middleman

[00:49:30] shipping chinese silks to japan and japanese silver to china pocketing huge markups in the process

[00:49:36] this already lucrative trade became even more so when chinese officials handed macao's portuguese

[00:49:42] traders a monopoly by banning direct trade with japan in fifteen forty seven yikes macao's golden age

[00:49:50] coincided with the union of the spanish and portuguese crowned between eight fifteen eighty and

[00:49:58] sixteen forty king philip II of spain was encouraged to not harm the status quo to allow trade to

[00:50:04] continue between portuguese macao and spanish manila and to not interfere with portuguese trade with

[00:50:11] china the union of portugal and spain meant that the portuguese colonies became targets for

[00:50:17] england and the netherlands the english had ambitions to set up trading posts in east asia

[00:50:23] the netherlands was embroiled at the time in a lengthy struggle for its independence from spain

[00:50:29] after the dutch east india company was founded in sixteen oh two the dutch unsuccessfully attacked

[00:50:37] macao several times culminating in a full scale invasion attempt in sixteen twenty two when eight

[00:50:42] hundred attackers were successfully repelled by one hundred fifty machines and portuguese defenders

[00:50:49] with a large number of african slaves the jesuits who feared the pros at Protestant dutch

[00:50:56] were extreme were instrumental in helping to defend macao and it's interesting because all of these

[00:51:02] activities led to the golden age in the nebomans that that is interesting the attempted dutch

[00:51:08] invasion was seen as a threat to their epic missionary activities in asia as well as being an

[00:51:13] important trading post macao was the center of activity for catholic missionaries as it was

[00:51:19] seen as a gateway for the conversion of the vast populations of china and japan

[00:51:24] jesuits had first arrived in the fifteen sixties and built the first church saint lazarus

[00:51:29] the jesuits were followed by dominicans for insistence and augustinians in the fifteen eighties

[00:51:36] what's from the dutch perspective what we're always taught is that um

[00:51:41] okay spoilers for history but that the portuguese end up losing out the trade with japan to the

[00:51:48] dutch because the dutch were less interested in converting them that you know they were like

[00:51:55] we're here to trade and of course they eventually say you can only trade from this one island tier

[00:52:00] but then the dutch became their only acts you know only way of trading with the outside world instead

[00:52:07] of the portuguese because they said we just want to take our goods and go so it's interesting that

[00:52:13] the whole Protestant religion is being used as a tool in the show yeah yeah that is cool i mean

[00:52:21] it sort of sounds like from your perspective elisha learning and in in Amsterdam that

[00:52:27] it was more of a secular versus religious thing rather than a catholic versus Protestant thing

[00:52:33] yeah i mean i'm sure that that's a factor and of course people wouldn't call themselves secular

[00:52:37] because it was uh people got it just for churches for yeah but they were just uh less

[00:52:44] because the netherlands is always uh like i'm so damn especially it's always isolated from the big

[00:52:51] royal courts and the big churches and they had limited influences of those kinds so it was just kind

[00:52:57] farmers and fishermen who banded together and we're very practical like how do we survive how do we

[00:53:05] get water off our leg at pet weight you know okay get more money for our country interesting well

[00:53:10] thanks nancy m for that history deep dive it was a very impressive report here so yeah that's really

[00:53:16] helpful to me i learned a lot thank you so lorraine kyle emwrights in about the next big thing

[00:53:23] it feels like everyone has been looking for the next game of thrones forever

[00:53:27] television executives yes of course because any of them would run over a bunny rabbit with their

[00:53:31] bmw for that kind of career making hit the carries in network for a decade but also like everyone

[00:53:37] it's fun to have a show that breaks out of its little niche bubble to become a thing that permeates

[00:53:41] the culture it's been a while since we had one of those succession got most of the way there but it's

[00:53:46] over now the walking dead is on it's uh it's been off about the stranger things kids are old enough

[00:53:51] to rent cars the yellow stone has the ratings but does not have the juice it's been weird you can talk

[00:53:59] about tv with 10 different people and realize none of you watch a single show in common it makes it

[00:54:04] all more isolating and lonely than something this fun should be agreed agreed yeah i miss the

[00:54:11] old like water cooler talk days yeah appointment television kind of thing yeah i think that's why

[00:54:17] so many people are so excited about shogun it i was so i'm practicing my abby prison i see that

[00:54:22] right shogun uh it debuted to a slew of stellar reviews that had a bunch of game those game

[00:54:28] of thrones comparisons which are fair there are no dragons or mystical elements fine by me but a lot

[00:54:33] of the other boxes are checked big sweeping historical epic check huge cast and crew full of

[00:54:39] interesting characters whip-ass action scenes check check mostly though the biggie is that there

[00:54:46] was a bunch of money and effort thrown at this sucker that is all right there on the screen

[00:54:52] it looks incredible in addition to being compelling where a little over two hours in and there are

[00:54:58] already characters i love and despise and one of them almost died in a shipwreck during a storm

[00:55:04] with waves as big as my apartment complex this is the good stuff people yeah uh let's let's stop

[00:55:11] there for a second this is the good stuff when you say a lesha no i agree i think uh this it's

[00:55:17] bringing conversation together and it's it's just looking it's undeniable quality i think the

[00:55:24] biggest hurdle here is just the scope the original novel by james clevel came out 50 years ago

[00:55:30] there are a number of warring factions and rivalries in japan in addition to some cat lick versus

[00:55:35] protest intention that swept over from europe it can be a little daunting at the outset to figure

[00:55:40] out who's who and who uh is doing what google is helpful here as is the guide fx created as a companion

[00:55:49] i knew nothing about any of this and i was caught up in about 15 minutes i look forward to the

[00:55:53] full development of david sternal as well yes definitely david and the doonidine have been working on

[00:56:00] the the ship's rudder for everyone to look at if you're a patron so if you are a patron or you

[00:56:05] want to sign up for it or the supercast we'll get you the links to the uh the guide the show guide

[00:56:13] Kyle finishes up so yeah i hope this sucker takes off it would be fun to have a big communal

[00:56:18] experience around a show a fun show that kicks ass again let's all get way into samarais this spring

[00:56:25] maybe i'll buy a sword maybe we all should i don't know could go a lot of ways here thanks can i always

[00:56:31] always wanted a katana you know when i first started dating my wife and and we first moved in

[00:56:37] together uh we my dad had an apartment on the other side of his house that was like closed off so

[00:56:42] that was our first department together and he walked into visit one day and he saw my wife sort

[00:56:49] on the wall and he said who's sword is this and i said that that's my wife's name and he goes wow

[00:56:57] cool and so i've always admired that about my wife that she's collected swords where i have not

[00:57:01] she's a sword collector uh i would know they're all safely away because of children yeah

[00:57:08] random story but uh so healthy whose those of you who listen to the Oscar podcast heard me talk

[00:57:13] to him about animated shorts he's from iceland and his sister once tried to bring a Viking sword back

[00:57:19] from him and apparently there's a rule at iceland that you can't have any like weapons or even like

[00:57:25] replica weapons like that and they took it from around the airport and so they just had to take

[00:57:30] a picture with it and she's like crying wow that's crazy that's sad yeah uh mat e closes the

[00:57:37] sad our old pal matty says i can forgive john's shogun versus tyco misstep but i hear just a little too

[00:57:44] much of ted lasso's roya and his john snow i just can't unhear it so glad you guys are doing shogun

[00:57:51] uh one thing i wonder is whether marico and her status last relationships with tornaga or

[00:57:57] husband is plate portrayed similarly in the reboot versus the original miniseries or book

[00:58:02] her only other smart person in the room reveal in episode two felt very 21st century

[00:58:07] if original it feels very progressive matty i first want to defend my impression of john black

[00:58:13] thorn because john black thorn is he's he's he's everyone's full of shit around me and they just want

[00:58:21] everything from me i think that's more john black form than uh then roe i'm trying i'm trying

[00:58:29] but thank you for the feedback but i don't think you sounds like john snow either so

[00:58:33] no i meant more the vibe right the i don't want that i don't want it hey he knows nothing

[00:58:41] what did you think about this take on marico do you think i i don't know anything about the mini

[00:58:47] series and i haven't got enough for a book no i am i am curious but is she a stronger character

[00:58:54] in the show than she is in the book i don't know i have you gotten to spend time with her in the

[00:58:58] book yet i have not at all so i couldn't say okay good question i'll get back to you matt

[00:59:04] i do i could see it being in addition for the new show but i don't know if i felt very

[00:59:09] natural to me too it's not like an invention of the modern age to have strong women it's just that

[00:59:14] they had to be more political about it and maneuver in specific ways and that's exactly what makes

[00:59:20] her character so interesting is she is so good at playing the role but still yeah you know she's

[00:59:25] still learning things like she's learning languages and learning more about the world she's

[00:59:30] satisfying her curiosity in ways that are that fit within her which is allowed right i think if you

[00:59:38] notice she hasn't volunteered for anything she's just pulled in because of her skills

[00:59:43] she has a personality you know she chose to convert to catholicism she has this

[00:59:50] you know this speech to uh i forgot her name but the soon to be widowed woman when her

[00:59:56] husband and son are about to die and she clearly is very intelligent and thoughtful and empathetic

[01:00:04] i think that with the politics she is playing it smartly and she's not overstepping

[01:00:09] at all anywhere she's just waiting for tornaga to call on her but she's

[01:00:14] right at the ready when he does and also you know we alluded to earlier the way she translates is

[01:00:21] also how she exerts her subtle influence on the situation right right well thank you maddie

[01:00:30] and thank you everyone for writing and if i missed anybody i'm sorry i had to rush to do feedback

[01:00:35] because uh we're running by the seat of our pants this week david's gone

[01:00:40] where david we miss we missed david but uh david will be back soon let's talk quickly elisha about

[01:00:47] what's going on on the network you've you've got some stuff cook and tell us about it uh yeah so

[01:00:53] stay tuned next month for a star wars related announcement but in the meantime i'm will shift

[01:00:59] dust you know we're prepping for beacon 23 episode uh so season two is coming in april and

[01:01:06] we're also yeah yeah yeah yeah because they filmed they filmed the two seasons back back so

[01:01:12] that's crazy yeah and i think it's smart of them to do that you know like let's not uh the people

[01:01:18] who were into the show were into the show like let's let's piggyback on that and give them more and

[01:01:22] maybe they're marketing is terrible i hope that they do better this time around but then again

[01:01:27] it's a month away and we've heard almost mgm plus which is the strangest decision

[01:01:32] whoever heard of that before beacon 23 well but that's why mgm plus it was originally uh it was

[01:01:38] originally going to be on another network but then they like spectrum originals stop making

[01:01:44] they shut down so it got sold and so mgm rescued it interesting and a couple other shows yeah

[01:01:52] but yeah and then we're also we're driving back into uh doon so we're gonna we're going through

[01:01:59] with the the book and and all of the adaptations and then through the new movies and onto eventually

[01:02:07] the next book you know help you prep for part three which i'm pretty sure is coming

[01:02:12] Anthony on the properly powered feed is uh cook it up something i don't know if he's at liberty to

[01:02:19] speak about it or me at liberty to speak about it yet but i think things are coming on that feed

[01:02:23] so stay subscribed over there i know merlin though just launched her new feed rings and rituals

[01:02:30] she's talking with dr sarah brown who is the professor of tokenology and uh did her PhD in Tolkien

[01:02:39] and merlin is of course our favorite Tolkien scholar as we say repeatedly and they're talking

[01:02:44] about all the rituals within the rings of power so it's really great i listened to the first

[01:02:48] episode already and i couldn't couldn't stop i couldn't put it down i was waiting to listen to it

[01:02:53] till everyone had it and i'm glad i did because it was really enjoyable and i got to keep up with

[01:02:58] the community in real time so definitely check that out that's in the show notes as well

[01:03:03] oh we've got some stuff cooking with fallout of course i think uh erin k from our discord is

[01:03:08] going to be launching a fallout feed soon but stay tuned for that we'll have more details about

[01:03:13] that soon the trailers look so good yeah yeah they do look good i don't i've never been a big fallout

[01:03:19] guy so i'm actually kind of glad that erin reached out to us to to cover it i don't know if i

[01:03:25] don't know if david and i recover it we haven't decided yet i have never played the games of course i'm

[01:03:29] well aware of them uh people make also comparisons with silo which is kind of how i'm most aware of them

[01:03:35] just watching the trailer i think this is going to be one of the strongest shows of the year

[01:03:39] i hope so i hope so i mean i i've not gotten into the games that much but i think more from a

[01:03:45] gameplay perspective than a story perspective so hopefully removing the gameplay will make you like

[01:03:50] it better okay uh other things that we have going on on the network of course weekly shogun keep

[01:03:56] writing in for that we've got a new simmerlian story is coming i promise it's coming eventually

[01:04:02] earthsea we're recording dragonfly soon so you still have a couple days to write in for that

[01:04:07] we just wrapped up the oscar's prep series so the oscar's prep series we made an exception

[01:04:13] to our rule elisha where yeah even nive had a long-standing rule to not put anything on this feed

[01:04:19] without one of us but kovid has defeated that rule so i'm excited to listen to it i'm gonna

[01:04:24] listen to it john and i flying silo i'm sure it was great burn the house down now

[01:04:29] what did you talk about on it like what what was the so this was this was part three so this one

[01:04:35] was focusing on we're calling them the blackbuster awards or you know they're called the technical

[01:04:39] awards so all of the visual and audio awards and you know vfx so it happens to be a bunch of

[01:04:47] movies that john dated david and i have talked about together on this feed plus all the best picture

[01:04:53] movies that we talked about and you know it had some interviews we with uh dead i jed i bob about

[01:04:59] the sound category with abbey about poor things yeah and we had some some more voicemails from

[01:05:07] the community and beyond cool including uh adrian he should have a career in asmr so if you want

[01:05:15] to know what i'm talking about then check that episode out cool uh yeah i can't wait to listen

[01:05:20] to that just a couple other quick plugs i know that uh we are gonna do something on dune we don't

[01:05:26] know exactly what yet but we're working on plans for that when david's healed up we'll get that done

[01:05:31] so plenty of stuff coming want to talk about our patreon quick if you want to support us if

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[01:06:06] for two shows now for true detective and chogan so if you don't know what it is you go to notion

[01:06:11] and you will have tabs that you can click on that'll tell you all the character names tell you

[01:06:15] some background about them david's been putting in some details about the world in there and then

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[01:07:12] at a mess nancy m dove 71 brion a d63 freddric h sara l garret c eric f math u m

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[01:07:37] and i love i love when people give us funny things to say with their names on the lore master thing

[01:07:44] it keeps it light i agree elisha thank you for being with me thank you for everyone listening

[01:07:51] thanks for the patrons for supporting and uh thank you for letting me talk about this show

[01:07:56] oh no i'm happy to have you i hope we can have you again before the end of the season awesome see you soon

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