Shōgun - E04 - The Eightfold Fence

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Shogun Podcast with the Lorehounds, Your Guides, to the political intrigues of

[00:00:20] feudal Japan.

[00:00:21] I'm David.

[00:00:23] And I'm John.

[00:00:24] This is our coverage for episode 4 titled The Eightfold Fence of the FX Limited Series

[00:00:28] Shogun, now streaming on Hulu.

[00:00:31] We're going to be covering this episode by major character arcs talking about our favorite

[00:00:35] moments and then answering a little bit of a listener feedback.

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[00:00:51] we can drop right into the podcast.

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[00:00:58] of special channels set up for general conversation and then episode specific conversation.

[00:01:06] If you're interested in supporting the Lorehounds community check us out on Patreon

[00:01:09] or Supercast.

[00:01:10] Supercast is basically just Patreon but built for podcasters especially.

[00:01:16] There's also a subscriber and community built online character guide we're calling the

[00:01:21] Shogunatthelorehounds show's rudder that David and you are spearheading and we've got

[00:01:26] all the dune of dine contributing and some community members submitting things to.

[00:01:30] It's just, it's got a character guide, it's got details on the episodes of World Building,

[00:01:35] it's a lot of fun.

[00:01:36] That's exclusive to Patreon or Supercast subscribers and I think we'll talk more about

[00:01:40] that at the end.

[00:01:41] Yes and at the end we'll also talk a little bit about how you can support the community

[00:01:46] if you are so inclined as well as a little bit about our upcoming podcast schedule.

[00:01:52] That's at the end of the podcast and then of course at the end of this, I was trying

[00:01:57] to do an end around joke but it's not really working out.

[00:02:00] Just go to the show notes and all the links for all the things are there so check that

[00:02:04] out.

[00:02:05] Cool.

[00:02:06] Yeah.

[00:02:07] David I haven't seen you in a couple weeks.

[00:02:08] You were down with the Black Thorn plague.

[00:02:12] Yes, I'm John Backthorn.

[00:02:16] I am back and I appreciate Alicia sitting in for me and I hope everybody had a good time.

[00:02:25] I've been having a good time with Shogun.

[00:02:27] It's been a really cool ride.

[00:02:30] It's some cool last television, I'm very happy with it.

[00:02:33] It's my favorite show of the year so far.

[00:02:35] Yes.

[00:02:36] I'm hot on this.

[00:02:38] It's got all the political intrigue, it's got all the character, it's doing it all.

[00:02:42] I live for it.

[00:02:43] It's like a perfect lore house show, right?

[00:02:45] It's got history and it's got character, it's got intrigue, it's got beautiful sets and

[00:02:51] sceneries.

[00:02:52] Yeah, it's pretty much right in our zone.

[00:02:55] Absolutely.

[00:02:56] So what do you think of the episode in general?

[00:02:58] This episode I really enjoyed.

[00:03:00] It was very light on its feet until it wasn't when it wasn't.

[00:03:04] It didn't, you know, it was supposed to be exactly where it was.

[00:03:08] I'm really impressed at the construction of this season overall so far when it's, I guess

[00:03:17] the last episode with there's a couple of points where I was like, oh, it's kind of

[00:03:22] weird.

[00:03:23] But so far in terms of four episodes, all the episodes are the right puzzle pieces for

[00:03:28] the story so that we feel like we're really moving along at the same time we're getting

[00:03:33] to know our characters and being able to spend time with them.

[00:03:36] You know, there's a very common thing to complain about pacing and television.

[00:03:42] And so not to get mired into that conversation but just to say that this season so far the

[00:03:50] pacing has been really nice.

[00:03:52] There's action when you need action, there's downtime when you need downtime.

[00:03:55] There's so much humor in this show.

[00:03:59] And at the same time, it's such a deadly serious situation but it never feels the show.

[00:04:07] Remember the first season of House of the Dragon?

[00:04:11] It was so heavy.

[00:04:13] It was so good, right?

[00:04:14] I loved that season but there was no humor.

[00:04:17] There was no levity in it and I think that's something that the season is showing us is

[00:04:23] that if you just sprinkle a little bit of it here and there, it just really lightens

[00:04:28] the whole show so we can get through the hard parts when we need to.

[00:04:32] Yeah, I completely agree about that.

[00:04:35] I was a little suspicious, I guess, of the Black Thorn Stick at first but it really grew

[00:04:44] on me to the point where he's charming me.

[00:04:46] Maybe I'll go on an imaginary date with him.

[00:04:49] And I was, same was you, I was really well.

[00:04:52] I wasn't so much worried about the Black Thorn Stick but I was worried about the actor

[00:04:57] being able to play this role.

[00:05:00] And he's got this kind of puppy dog-ish quality about him and this sort of slightly bumbling

[00:05:07] quality about him and it's kind of weirdly charming.

[00:05:11] It's actually working with me.

[00:05:13] And I really buy the parts where he's speaking in a tone that seems like it's respectful

[00:05:19] but saying like, go fuck your mother's ankles or whatever.

[00:05:22] You know, whatever he's saying, he's really just laying on every insult again to people

[00:05:28] he doesn't like but in a language they don't understand.

[00:05:31] And I'll get to it later but my god is Mariko a charitable translator.

[00:05:36] Yes, very much so.

[00:05:39] I wanted to shout out to Tada Nobu Asano.

[00:05:44] I know I've got the salalables all wrong on that but the actor who's playing Yaba Shugaisama

[00:05:51] sorry, I'm a little bit out of the podcast in games and my mouth is still warming up to

[00:05:55] the syllables here.

[00:05:58] But god, I love watching this guy on screen.

[00:06:02] He is so funny and he is so serious and he's so earnest and he's so deadly and he's

[00:06:07] so psychopathic and he's just everything and every time he's on screen I'm just eating

[00:06:13] it up.

[00:06:14] And the acting across the board is just incredible.

[00:06:19] The actor who's playing Fugaisama, she blew me away this episode.

[00:06:23] I think a lot of people have been really impressed with her character development this

[00:06:29] particular episode.

[00:06:30] It was so good and there are a couple of my favorite scenes when we get to that section

[00:06:33] are around Fugaisama.

[00:06:36] The funny thing, go ahead.

[00:06:37] Can I just add?

[00:06:38] Yeah, yeah.

[00:06:39] I've often said I don't want I don't want extreme violence and I don't want sexual,

[00:06:45] you know, extreme sexual stuff unless it means something unless it serves the story.

[00:06:50] And Fuji Sama or is it Sama?

[00:06:54] I don't know what I'm supposed to call her in this.

[00:06:56] I think it might be Sama.

[00:06:57] We need to add that she's from a lower rank I think.

[00:07:00] Yeah, okay.

[00:07:01] But I know I think Sama and Sama are different eras.

[00:07:05] I think in this particular era they used Sama instead of Sama.

[00:07:08] No, he's Anjinsan.

[00:07:09] He's not Anjinsan.

[00:07:10] Oh, that's a really good point.

[00:07:12] Yeah.

[00:07:13] We need some guidance from the community.

[00:07:14] Anyway, I think Sama is basically Mr.

[00:07:17] Okay.

[00:07:18] It's like Sir and then Sama is basically like Lord or Lady.

[00:07:22] Interesting.

[00:07:23] Alright.

[00:07:24] So anyway, Fuji Sama whoever she is, she has this horrific action in act done to her

[00:07:35] family in the first episode.

[00:07:38] And to me I was like, why do we have to have the baby dying and her husband?

[00:07:42] But now I kind of understand where they were going with it.

[00:07:46] You know this contrast with how Marico deals with grief, this whole speech on the eightfold

[00:07:50] fence.

[00:07:52] And just this way that she sort of has this strength within her when it comes to Black

[00:08:00] Thorn.

[00:08:01] Yeah.

[00:08:02] It's cautious about it, but also understands when she's getting a new ally.

[00:08:08] And it's wonderful.

[00:08:09] It's really wonderful.

[00:08:10] So you're right.

[00:08:11] The performance was amazing.

[00:08:12] Yeah.

[00:08:13] Some of the little looks that she had.

[00:08:14] I mean just all the actors are really bringing their A games out so lovely to see.

[00:08:21] And she had such a thoughtful gift of a courtesan.

[00:08:24] We'll get there.

[00:08:26] We're going to get there.

[00:08:27] You know, interesting in this episode and the last couple of episodes, there's been

[00:08:31] some not so great CGI.

[00:08:34] And I'll tell you what, when the story is good and the acting is good and you're engaged

[00:08:40] in that way, the production could be Doctor Who quality like 19 is early Doctor Sue, Doctor

[00:08:48] Who, I almost said Doctor Seuss.

[00:08:51] And I wouldn't care because it's I'm so I'm so enrolled in what's going on with the

[00:08:56] characters and what's happening at the plot.

[00:08:59] And it's so interesting.

[00:09:00] So that when you start noticing that kind of stuff, you can tell there's something that

[00:09:03] oh, we got to pick Knitz and we got a, you know, got a criticize poke at it.

[00:09:07] So.

[00:09:08] Right.

[00:09:09] And that's what I was always saying in true detective, right?

[00:09:11] Like if I'm noticing those details, yeah, the problem.

[00:09:14] Yeah, exactly.

[00:09:15] Or you may notice them, but if you complain about them, then that's when we have the

[00:09:19] problem.

[00:09:20] Right.

[00:09:21] So I will say I watched a little bit more of the mini series and I'm debating whether

[00:09:25] or not the 1980 mini series and I'm debating right now whether I should continue watching

[00:09:29] it or not because it's like telling me, you know, if I watch that episode, then I kind

[00:09:36] of know what's going on.

[00:09:37] And I'm also kind of remembering because I mean, I watched it back back then.

[00:09:41] And so I have latent memories of it.

[00:09:43] And I'm at the point now.

[00:09:44] It's like, oh, maybe I want to be surprised and let go and go with the story.

[00:09:49] I kind of have the story up until about this point already in my head from that.

[00:09:55] And so then the mini series was reinforcing that.

[00:09:59] And but at the same time, what's really interesting is to see how this FX production is doing

[00:10:08] critical changes that are handled so well and so smartly and really bring the story

[00:10:20] into this better framing and moving it away from Black Thorn as being the white

[00:10:25] savior trope kind right.

[00:10:28] And there are things that happen and we'll talk about it later.

[00:10:30] I'll bring them up here or there.

[00:10:33] But I knew like the quarter sand thing was going to happen, right?

[00:10:35] That's in the 80s thing.

[00:10:37] But then the whole thing of training the troops and that stuff.

[00:10:40] It's handled so very differently in the mini series.

[00:10:43] And I have to say, I am just so impressed with the writer's room on this production.

[00:10:48] We should pay them in more kukus.

[00:10:50] Definitely was the laughing kukus or what was it?

[00:10:54] Yeah, I don't know.

[00:10:55] But he told me that crack me up.

[00:10:57] Yeah, there was a great line.

[00:10:59] I wrote it down somewhere and I can't find my notes.

[00:11:02] Anyway, just so smart.

[00:11:05] The writing staff, what they've done and how they've done it and the through lines

[00:11:11] and the trajectories that they can make.

[00:11:13] The whole thing the cannons were not in the 80s mini series.

[00:11:17] It was flint locks and rifles.

[00:11:20] Well, not rifles but flint locks.

[00:11:24] And he was training him in basic arms of the era.

[00:11:28] So this whole cannon thing is like, wow, this is really such a great development, a way

[00:11:33] to re-center the story.

[00:11:35] But still give Black Dorn that detail that he needs to give Tornauga a particular edge.

[00:11:41] You're going to say?

[00:11:42] So Nate actually wrote this.

[00:11:44] He needs a new member of our discord.

[00:11:46] It's been all up in that discord.

[00:11:47] It's so cool to see.

[00:11:49] Welcome to the dollar.

[00:11:50] Yes.

[00:11:51] And Nate wrote something about the guns in particular that struck me and I wanted to

[00:11:56] make sure to include it in the podcast, even if it wasn't official feedback.

[00:12:00] It's how they were going to make changes to fix clavell's travesty of English man comes

[00:12:07] and teaches nobles, savages, how to use modern gun technology was one of my biggest concerns.

[00:12:13] Knocked it out of the park.

[00:12:15] The episode podcast, the official podcast has the historian they consulted on the show

[00:12:21] and he describes telling the writers not know but FFF know are you doing it this way?

[00:12:29] They had guns for almost 60 years.

[00:12:32] Basically verbated what Mara said.

[00:12:34] Right.

[00:12:35] Switching it to cannons which were less common in Japan was an elegant solution.

[00:12:39] So elegant.

[00:12:40] I haven't listened to the official podcast yet and I haven't been up on the discord that

[00:12:43] much as I've been sort of slowly building myself back up but yeah, I totally agree with

[00:12:49] him.

[00:12:50] Elegant is the exact right word.

[00:12:52] Yep.

[00:12:53] Yep.

[00:12:54] My last thought.

[00:12:56] Buntaro is so alive.

[00:12:58] Oh absolutely.

[00:12:59] Absolutely.

[00:13:00] You were in the pod last week with Alicia saying that he served his narrative purpose and

[00:13:04] I was like, I mean he did.

[00:13:06] Well maybe not because he could come back and be like, what are you doing with my wife?

[00:13:10] Sleep with my wife.

[00:13:11] Yeah.

[00:13:12] He's like, I'm sorry are you a hot a moto?

[00:13:14] Because I'm a hot a moto.

[00:13:16] I'm a hot a moto.

[00:13:17] Oh my.

[00:13:18] Oh boy.

[00:13:19] Oh boy.

[00:13:20] So what about you?

[00:13:22] I know you've chimed in on a few thoughts.

[00:13:24] What else do you have from your hot take side?

[00:13:28] Yeah, I'm pretty much given most of my hot takes.

[00:13:31] But I love the episode really.

[00:13:33] I keep becoming more in on this show.

[00:13:37] The acting is amazing.

[00:13:39] The production value is amazing.

[00:13:42] It's not like me.

[00:13:43] I know.

[00:13:44] I'm you're running your own way.

[00:13:46] My human heart is in conflict with itself.

[00:13:49] All three of them.

[00:13:51] But really, I mean, I'm so into the lore of it.

[00:13:54] I have not really had a chance to read more of the book.

[00:13:56] I've just been swam to with a million things in real life.

[00:14:00] But I can't wait to finish it after this.

[00:14:03] Like I'm definitely going to finish the book after the series if I can't finish it before

[00:14:06] it.

[00:14:07] Regardless of what subject matter they might tackle, I really want this production team

[00:14:13] to do some more work somewhere.

[00:14:15] Do something.

[00:14:16] I don't care.

[00:14:17] Adaptation, original writing, whatever.

[00:14:21] These people are delivering this game of thrones, you know, how's the dragon's succession,

[00:14:30] ask material that we want and it's yeah, I just will be really sad when this is over.

[00:14:37] Wouldn't be cool if they did an anthology series where they took different clavell errors.

[00:14:41] It would be so great.

[00:14:43] That would be fun.

[00:14:44] So that would be, God huge.

[00:14:46] I mean, they've been developing this for so long, but then they had COVID in the way,

[00:14:49] but still I think part of what is the quality here is the fact that they have taken their

[00:14:56] time with the development like they've taken the due care and consideration of working

[00:15:02] through all of these issues.

[00:15:03] And I think it really shows.

[00:15:05] Right.

[00:15:06] So you want to talk about history a little bit before we take a break?

[00:15:08] Yeah, just a wee bit.

[00:15:09] I just had a couple of points notes that I had.

[00:15:11] I don't know if you had anything on your list.

[00:15:13] I just see that you have not told on the list.

[00:15:15] I didn't do a history thing on it, but I knew what that was from various media and whatnot.

[00:15:22] And the first time I learned about it, I was like my God, my God.

[00:15:27] And the fact that pretty much the Japanese population understands that this is a disgusting

[00:15:34] food, but they're like, yeah, but it's part of our culture.

[00:15:37] Sure.

[00:15:38] And I hope you enjoy it.

[00:15:39] Yeah, yeah.

[00:15:40] I hope you enjoy it.

[00:15:41] Super cool.

[00:15:42] I mean, if you have a, if you've ever had a stinky cheese like a stilton or something like

[00:15:47] that, I mean, I could imagine that black thorn being, you know, they were dealing with

[00:15:53] scurvy and traveling on the world and the food.

[00:15:56] Like I could imagine him being into strong smelling foods with weird texture.

[00:16:04] So like the fact that he liked it, I was like, okay, that's great.

[00:16:08] That's a great little detail.

[00:16:09] I never had an auto and I didn't know as much as I do now, which is basically fermented soybean.

[00:16:16] It's like so fermented that it starts to become sticky and gooey, almost like a mac and

[00:16:23] cheese like a stringy thing with a really strong, and I was interesting was that it's

[00:16:28] often eaten cold and it's often eaten for breakfast.

[00:16:33] I don't know that I could do that.

[00:16:35] Maybe I could do a warm notto but I don't know about a cold notto.

[00:16:39] That sounds really, it tastes sort of like a cheese, maybe a bit spoiled.

[00:16:47] The way he says good.

[00:16:51] He's trying to be nice about it and he gained their respect a little bit in that moment

[00:16:55] right?

[00:16:56] They were like, oh wow, this is really interesting.

[00:16:58] They were also kind of giggly at him.

[00:16:59] They were like, he definitely hates us.

[00:17:01] Yeah.

[00:17:03] It was a, again, one of those funny scenes in the show.

[00:17:05] So perfect.

[00:17:06] I wanted to mention about Flintlocks as well which are an interesting form of armament.

[00:17:14] It literally is a flint and a lock.

[00:17:18] So what you do it's a muzzle loading weapon so you put powder, a certain amount of powder

[00:17:25] down the barrel first.

[00:17:26] And you put a little piece of paper and a ball.

[00:17:30] And then you, that's in.

[00:17:32] So it just, the paper creates a friction seal so that when the powder ignites it actually

[00:17:38] creates that explosive force necessary to push the ball down the barrel.

[00:17:43] So you need the paper and the ball need to be sort of fitted just right.

[00:17:46] And then you don't want the ball to roll out, right?

[00:17:49] So you got to really tamp it down there.

[00:17:52] And then there's this really ingenious mechanism where there's a little pan right next to the

[00:17:59] side of the barrel with a little hole in the side of the barrel where you put in a,

[00:18:04] a small amount of really finely ground powder.

[00:18:08] And then when you lock the flint, the strike, oh I forget what the striker thing is called

[00:18:14] when you, there's a little cover for the pan that is also part of the metal that the

[00:18:21] flint will strike against to create the spark.

[00:18:25] And so that's a single piece that locks down in place, so that powder doesn't come out.

[00:18:30] But then there's a little plate there where then you have the hammer with a piece of

[00:18:34] flint like literally like a piece of stone wrapped and grabbed in a little vice grip thing.

[00:18:41] And then you have to position that just right so that when you pull the trigger and that

[00:18:45] thing falls forward, it drags along the face of this metal plate, which I forget the name

[00:18:51] of, creating a whole bunch of sparks.

[00:18:53] But as that's moving forward, it's also coming up and opening the pan so that all those

[00:18:59] sparks shower down and fall into that little pan of powder which ignites then goes through

[00:19:05] their little hole and then ignites the powder that's in the back of the barrel of the gun.

[00:19:11] It is interesting.

[00:19:12] It's a really elegant problem solve, a way to solve the problem that they were dealing

[00:19:19] with until they became up with percussion caps and then ultimately cartridges.

[00:19:25] But when you pull the trigger, you got to wait for a second before all of that happens

[00:19:31] and you got to hold your gun and then you're done, right?

[00:19:33] That's it.

[00:19:34] It's going to take forever to load.

[00:19:36] So when you have a regiment or a squad of people who with rifles, with those as rifles,

[00:19:45] they developed tactics where there'd be first and second and third rows where people would

[00:19:50] fire and then rotate out and fire and rotate out.

[00:19:53] Yeah.

[00:19:54] Actually, I have to say that is what something that bothered me in Blue Ice Samurai is

[00:19:59] that.

[00:20:00] I was like, you are firing a second shot too fast here guys.

[00:20:04] This is too fast, but I will tell you I did finish Blue Ice Samurai the other night

[00:20:09] for five.

[00:20:10] How was it like?

[00:20:11] Yeah.

[00:20:12] Good.

[00:20:13] Absolutely would have been in my top five last year.

[00:20:14] Wow.

[00:20:15] It was really that good.

[00:20:16] Wow.

[00:20:17] It was amazing.

[00:20:18] There was a twist that made me go and my wife just looked at me like yeah, that's

[00:20:24] the twist.

[00:20:27] I gasped out loud.

[00:20:28] I was uncontrollable.

[00:20:29] It was involuntary.

[00:20:30] So if you like this show, I would say definitely watch Blue Ice Samurai.

[00:20:33] Okay.

[00:20:34] I bounced out of it in the first few minutes when the sidekick was trying to go along with

[00:20:40] the protagonist at the beginning after the opening things and I was just kind of like,

[00:20:45] this just seems a little too shrek like with the donkey or something.

[00:20:49] No, it's you can't do hip-dirty like that.

[00:20:53] No, I know, but I've heard everybody's like universally praised the show.

[00:20:57] It's amazing.

[00:20:58] It gets better as it goes.

[00:21:00] And there's, you know, there was a point in episode like five or six out of eight where

[00:21:04] I was like, how is the show going to have two more episodes?

[00:21:06] It seems like everything is done and then just twist after twist.

[00:21:10] That all made sense and felt like it had been coming.

[00:21:13] Very cool.

[00:21:14] And so absolutely if you like Shogun, go watch Blue Ice Samurai.

[00:21:18] Get past the fact that it's animated if that bothers you.

[00:21:21] Go watch the show.

[00:21:22] It's an amazing story.

[00:21:23] And get past the first episode I would guess.

[00:21:25] And this is a few decades after Shogun takes place.

[00:21:30] Historic.

[00:21:31] No, it's a similar era.

[00:21:33] Right.

[00:21:34] Right.

[00:21:35] So the last historical note I had was on Chain Shot which is what Blackdorn was loading

[00:21:42] up at one point when Ishi Doshman I believe came on scene and of course then I think,

[00:21:48] I'm pretty sure it was used the next day when Nagato, oh boy.

[00:21:57] Oh boy.

[00:21:58] Nagakato.

[00:21:59] Thank you.

[00:22:00] Nagakato has that surprise attack but Chain Shot is kind of important.

[00:22:07] I think we'll see if it's going to be important because he actually, Blackdorn actually

[00:22:10] names it specifically so that's what caught my attention.

[00:22:14] It's basically, there's different versions of it.

[00:22:16] But basically it's a single cannonball that's been cut in half and has a piece of chain

[00:22:23] of varying length connecting the two halves.

[00:22:26] And the size of this thing is going to scale based on the cannon that you're going

[00:22:31] to use but in naval warfare, you could use Chain Shot really effectively against rigging

[00:22:37] and sails so it would fly through.

[00:22:39] As the cannonball shoots out, it'll eventually, the two halves will stretch apart with that

[00:22:47] chain and it could even be tumbling as it's going.

[00:22:50] And then that chain shot going through all the rigging and the ropes in everything on a

[00:22:55] ship or sails so you can damage your enemy's ability to actually maneuver.

[00:23:01] And I think they also use something called bar shot which is basically two smaller cannonballs

[00:23:07] that have a single piece of a bar between the two.

[00:23:13] And so they would try to use those to take out masks of a ship because if you could

[00:23:17] dismask your opponent, that was a really effective maneuver because you can still maneuver and

[00:23:23] shoot where they are pretty much stuck.

[00:23:26] The unfortunate downside of Chain Shot is it's an extremely effective anti-personnel weapon.

[00:23:34] And so that's really as we saw, I think, to devastating effect at the end of the episode.

[00:23:42] So that's Chain Shot.

[00:23:43] Those are my three historical notes for this episode.

[00:23:47] All right.

[00:23:50] Well, I appreciate that David and certainly some context to Nagakado's insanity.

[00:24:01] Let's take a quick break when we get back.

[00:24:03] We'll get into the actual character arcs.

[00:24:05] Great.

[00:24:06] And we're back.

[00:24:20] So let's talk about the man of the hour John Blackthorn.

[00:24:23] John Blackthorn.

[00:24:24] He's faking it till he makes it.

[00:24:27] Yes.

[00:24:28] I love the beginning.

[00:24:30] So it's not just that they changed it from guns to cannons, right?

[00:24:34] It's that he goes in going, well, I don't even know how to load a gun.

[00:24:38] So I'll teach them the basics and I'll think I'm a genius.

[00:24:40] They're like, we don't need to know the basics.

[00:24:42] Show us tactics.

[00:24:43] Let me tell you about a battle.

[00:24:48] And they know he's bullshitting so fast.

[00:24:51] The whole thing when he starts going on about the battle of Malta was hilarious.

[00:24:55] Absolutely.

[00:24:56] He sounded very professorial.

[00:24:58] Oh, but I was just like, no, it's taught.

[00:25:03] It's taught.

[00:25:04] Yes.

[00:25:06] That was really good.

[00:25:07] But it really flips it on the head right.

[00:25:09] It's not the white savior.

[00:25:11] It's this guy who they're like any expertise you have go ahead and share it with the class

[00:25:17] because we know the basics already.

[00:25:19] We graduated high school.

[00:25:20] We're ready for university level courses.

[00:25:23] And he thinks about it for a second.

[00:25:26] He's like, all right, I don't know how to do gun warfare.

[00:25:31] Right.

[00:25:32] Inventory.

[00:25:33] A lot about piracy basically.

[00:25:35] And so the cannons and a perfectly done scene where Yabushika goes, look, the ports

[00:25:40] are gazed if tried to show us this before we weren't very impressed.

[00:25:44] He's like, hold my beer.

[00:25:46] Hold my nottoe.

[00:25:48] And he just hits the target.

[00:25:50] It was beautiful.

[00:25:51] It was great.

[00:25:53] And it was really nervous.

[00:25:56] The moment that they said, well, we know how to shoot guns.

[00:25:59] I was like, oh crap.

[00:26:01] I was like, what is he going to do?

[00:26:02] He was really jammed.

[00:26:04] But I think it goes to showing us who this character is.

[00:26:09] He's a survivor.

[00:26:10] He's quick on his feet.

[00:26:13] He has a strong moral sense of morality even though it's based in his country's morality

[00:26:20] as opposed to Japanese morality.

[00:26:22] The honor of women.

[00:26:23] Yes, exactly.

[00:26:24] He's no one going to stop him.

[00:26:27] And that he's also getting...

[00:26:33] He's got an aptitude for language.

[00:26:36] And so that he is in that moment able to think so quickly on his feet and actually be competent

[00:26:45] with the cannon firing is just really good.

[00:26:49] It's just a really great way to let us know that this black thorn is not going to die.

[00:26:54] He's going to keep pulling an ace out of his sleeve every time something happens.

[00:26:58] And I think that's an interesting arc for us to follow.

[00:27:03] That's not a white savior complex, right?

[00:27:05] You know, teaching the barbarians, teaching the ease of the savage.

[00:27:10] Well, it's not even that, right?

[00:27:12] It's more...

[00:27:13] Here are two people from civilized...

[00:27:16] There are two groups of people that are civilized societies that each have their own kinds

[00:27:20] of wisdom.

[00:27:21] How do we have those mix each other?

[00:27:24] Right, like they're not flipping it on its head necessarily.

[00:27:28] They're framing it entirely.

[00:27:30] In a really wonderful way.

[00:27:32] And you know, we lose this thing about language you mentioned.

[00:27:34] We lose this because it's all English and Japanese.

[00:27:38] But this guy already speaks at least three languages.

[00:27:41] He's on a Dutch ship.

[00:27:42] He knows he speaks Portuguese and he's from England.

[00:27:45] He speaks at least three languages.

[00:27:47] They always say, you know, you speak two languages, you could speak three pretty easily.

[00:27:50] And I think that shows he's a really smart guy, right?

[00:27:53] And he's a navigator.

[00:27:55] He did do celestial navigation.

[00:27:59] Oh my God.

[00:28:00] Right?

[00:28:01] They didn't have GPSs.

[00:28:04] They didn't have maps.

[00:28:06] They didn't have topographic and nautical maps.

[00:28:09] He's keeping all of that stuff in a written book.

[00:28:13] And then refreshing his memory by reading his rudder, right?

[00:28:16] Right.

[00:28:17] And Alicia made a great point last week which was four other ships did not make it.

[00:28:23] Right.

[00:28:24] He was the only one out of five.

[00:28:26] Yeah.

[00:28:27] There he's the only one who made it through Magellan's past or Magellan's past as he

[00:28:30] said.

[00:28:31] Yes, Magellan's past.

[00:28:32] And to have that strength of will as well as that quick-witted intelligence is I think

[00:28:39] it's really demonstrated.

[00:28:40] And so it was just fun to see him pull the rabbit out of his hat in the canon situation.

[00:28:48] Yeah.

[00:28:49] He's also oddly respectful to Fuji Sama.

[00:28:54] He's really like, and not in like a, I have to protect women way but more like, look,

[00:29:00] I don't want to bother her with me.

[00:29:01] Like I'm not trying to go and take advantage of all these things.

[00:29:04] I don't want this house.

[00:29:05] I don't want you to throw a woman at me like she's property.

[00:29:08] I just want to go home basically.

[00:29:10] I just want my men, I want my ship.

[00:29:13] And part of it is part of his tantrum of, I'm not getting what I thought I bargained

[00:29:17] for.

[00:29:18] But part of it I think he really is being kind to her.

[00:29:21] He gives her the gun later.

[00:29:23] He shows her respect the whole time and I think that's actually what Charms Marco in

[00:29:29] the end.

[00:29:30] The date is one thing but he doesn't get to the fake date without the respect for Fuji

[00:29:35] Sama.

[00:29:36] I think that Charms Marco even explicitly calls it out later, which he's like, he's trying

[00:29:39] to be kind.

[00:29:40] I think it goes into a larger question of his character, which is, his character, one

[00:29:45] of his characteristics is adaptability.

[00:29:48] He can adapt to situations and he knows, he can read a room and he can gather the little

[00:29:58] bits of information that he needs to adapt himself.

[00:30:02] But then I think actually in the morning I think about it, it's not just adaptability

[00:30:06] though, but he's actually beginning to take on board some of what they're saying.

[00:30:12] Like there's a one scene where he's sitting there looking at the rocks, right?

[00:30:16] And at the garden at night and listening.

[00:30:19] And he's in the morning after the visit from the court is end.

[00:30:23] He's sitting with them having breakfast and looking out or he's talking to Fuji about

[00:30:29] the rain, right?

[00:30:30] He's actually beginning to appreciate, to see and appreciate.

[00:30:33] And if he wasn't self-reflective like that, if he was just an inflexible, I think he'd

[00:30:40] already be dead by now.

[00:30:42] Yeah, definitely.

[00:30:44] He's flexible, but he also does sort of say enough for himself when he's actually right?

[00:30:50] Exactly.

[00:30:51] At the same time.

[00:30:52] Yeah, he has a strong moral compass to him.

[00:30:54] That's a good point.

[00:30:56] It's really interesting.

[00:30:57] The way he rejects basically using Fuji, I think he understood that they were saying

[00:31:03] this recently widowed woman, she's going to be essentially your sex servant.

[00:31:07] Right.

[00:31:08] And he's like, I don't...

[00:31:10] That's not for me guys.

[00:31:11] That's just not for me.

[00:31:13] Well, yeah, it's part of that's one part of a household, right?

[00:31:16] A male...

[00:31:17] Right.

[00:31:18] A male centered bracelet.

[00:31:19] I don't agree with that.

[00:31:20] Yeah.

[00:31:21] Yeah.

[00:31:22] Very interesting character.

[00:31:24] Very interesting.

[00:31:25] I like him.

[00:31:27] Yeah.

[00:31:28] Now, of course there was an adversary to Black Thorne in this episode.

[00:31:32] When Omi was really just determined to piss Black Thorne off.

[00:31:37] Yeah.

[00:31:38] Yep.

[00:31:39] What was that?

[00:31:40] Was it just a power play you think?

[00:31:42] Was it just I am still higher ranked than you maybe?

[00:31:45] I think the...

[00:31:47] I think it had to do...

[00:31:48] Well, I think there's a couple things going on actually.

[00:31:52] I think one was the fact that how did the guns come off the boat?

[00:31:59] They got the guns off the boat and everything on that boat is not the property of Black Thorne.

[00:32:05] Any more, right?

[00:32:06] Yeah.

[00:32:07] It's property of Tora Naga ultimately.

[00:32:11] So how did the guns get into his hands?

[00:32:14] Didn't Mariko...

[00:32:15] Mariko Samo.

[00:32:16] Mariko Samo?

[00:32:17] Didn't she offer if you need something off the boat just tell us and we'll get it?

[00:32:23] And it was for the training, right?

[00:32:24] So he was going to say I'm bringing the guns for the training.

[00:32:26] Yeah.

[00:32:27] I think that's probably how he got them.

[00:32:29] That's my head cannon.

[00:32:30] Yeah, but then who authorized that and if Omi was not part of that authorization chain

[00:32:38] then why is he demanding the guns?

[00:32:40] But I think there's another thing.

[00:32:41] There's not part of the authorization chains, right?

[00:32:43] He's the head of the village but he's not at all part of this training regimen which

[00:32:47] is led by Yabu Sige.

[00:32:49] Oh my god, I got to get all these names right.

[00:32:52] Yabushige and Nagakato.

[00:32:55] Those are the people ahead of Black Thorne.

[00:32:58] But he's still a vassal of Torinaga.

[00:33:02] So he's still part of the overall authority and hierarchy.

[00:33:07] The other thing I think though is that I correct me if I wrong right in, if you know but

[00:33:13] I believe at this stage, firearms, possession of firearms was strictly controlled.

[00:33:23] Because I don't think that anybody just walking down the street with a firearm unless they

[00:33:30] had authorization from a higher authority, I think that was off limits because they are

[00:33:34] such a game changer of a weapon in this day and age.

[00:33:38] So I think that's my head cannon is that you can't leave this domicile area with a

[00:33:45] firearm.

[00:33:47] And then he tried to pull the power play of after he gave him to Fuji, give me the guns

[00:33:55] and then he was like not having it.

[00:33:57] That was excellent.

[00:33:59] I'd like to your character before that but I was unsure about where she was going.

[00:34:04] That was the moment where I was like, she's got a personality.

[00:34:07] You know what I mean?

[00:34:08] She's not just a one dimensional character of this grieving widow being forced into an

[00:34:12] uncomfortable situation.

[00:34:14] The fact that she is fulfilling her role as a courtesan, as the consort.

[00:34:22] Sorry I apologize, consort.

[00:34:23] I had courtesan because I was reading, I was trying to read up on some of those as

[00:34:27] a consort and head of his household.

[00:34:30] And that's the interesting thing is when everybody's got these strict moral or honor codes

[00:34:37] that dictate them like if we go back to, I got a look up his name, the guy who her

[00:34:43] former husband.

[00:34:45] He was Tadayoshi when he was hearing his Lord getting insulted and he was like you're dishonoring

[00:34:55] and it's my job to be responsible for the honor of my Lord.

[00:35:00] And so I've got to say and do something and then whoops, that was not the thing to say

[00:35:05] or do in that particular moment.

[00:35:07] Well, it's so everybody's set up.

[00:35:09] It's you know, you have that in an office setting at work.

[00:35:15] It's just a head of a department has to ask, has to challenge another head of department

[00:35:20] I can't go challenge your head of department.

[00:35:22] Right.

[00:35:23] Things like that.

[00:35:24] It's, but now I would get written up and not have to submit to Puku.

[00:35:30] But that's the point right is there was, there's a reason why.

[00:35:33] I think Hatomoto is probably very similar to the rank of Omi.

[00:35:37] Right.

[00:35:38] But what I think I'm pointing at is everybody is on these trajectories and these trajectories

[00:35:45] are going to invariably cross.

[00:35:48] And then that's where you get drama, right?

[00:35:51] And I think it's a great subject area.

[00:35:53] And I think this is why there's so much written in plays and movies and books and all kinds

[00:35:58] of stuff around this particular period of Japan is because it is so rich from a literary

[00:36:06] standpoint in terms of dramatic tension and characters who are on these, you know, they're

[00:36:12] on these railway tracks that they have to go from here to there because their honor code

[00:36:16] demands it.

[00:36:17] And that's invariably going to lead them into collisions with other people whose codes

[00:36:22] are crossing theirs.

[00:36:25] And it's great.

[00:36:26] It's very rich.

[00:36:27] Yeah.

[00:36:28] Definitely.

[00:36:30] So Fuji, I didn't do a separate section for Fuji because I feel like she kind of inter,

[00:36:36] you know, interwo between Black Thorn and Mariko.

[00:36:40] But I really love this moment for her.

[00:36:42] I think this was her moment of the show.

[00:36:45] And what a great shot of her just holding the gun with her sleeves.

[00:36:49] Yep.

[00:36:50] Yeah.

[00:36:51] Amazing.

[00:36:52] Amazing camera work.

[00:36:53] If we're a little bit on Fuji Sama right now, Fuji Sama Fuji, at this moment, there's

[00:36:59] a great scene or a great look when they're having breakfast after, you know, the morning

[00:37:05] after her.

[00:37:06] And she looks over at Mariko Sama and she's and there's like this little like eyebrow

[00:37:11] facial thing and I can't wait.

[00:37:13] It was so good.

[00:37:14] The acting was just so brilliant.

[00:37:16] Or at the beginning when they're on the boat and she's pissed off that she's being given

[00:37:21] this assignment, her just the delivery that let me look up the actors name here.

[00:37:29] The deliver that she gave Moik Mo, I'm not, Hoshi, her name is, her last name is Hoshi.

[00:37:36] Hoshi gave was just so subtle and nuanced with just this passion and fury and she's

[00:37:41] show pissed off.

[00:37:42] And then she goes, oh, I'm so sorry.

[00:37:46] How beastly of me not to be sympathetic to your own loss and show she immediately goes

[00:37:52] into her little eightfold fence scenario, right?

[00:37:56] Yeah.

[00:37:57] Berries her own feelings.

[00:37:58] Brilliant.

[00:37:59] Absolutely brilliant.

[00:38:00] Yeah, you see all these examples of the eightfold fence for them, right?

[00:38:06] And I thought that was a beautiful way to frame the episode.

[00:38:08] Yeah, for sure.

[00:38:09] Yeah.

[00:38:11] But speaking of emotions, I think Blackthorn can be a little romantic when he wants to

[00:38:17] be.

[00:38:18] He does know when shut up.

[00:38:20] I will say that.

[00:38:21] You know, the morning after he tries to kiss and tell America was like, yeah, I hope you

[00:38:26] really like your, your courtesan.

[00:38:28] That was very generous gift.

[00:38:31] Yes, it was.

[00:38:32] It was very good.

[00:38:34] And that happens in the mini series as well.

[00:38:37] But I think Buntaro is still alive in the mini series.

[00:38:41] So that's why they have to even be more careful about the secrecy there.

[00:38:48] So this whole thing, too, well, let's talk about it when we get to Mariko's whole section

[00:38:57] later on.

[00:38:58] But there's a whole thing about there.

[00:39:00] What's forming the basis of their relationship?

[00:39:02] So yeah.

[00:39:03] Yeah.

[00:39:05] And I just want to say Blackthorn, our guy finally has his swords.

[00:39:10] He shows up in this village.

[00:39:13] He's smelly barbarian half star dead guy.

[00:39:20] They cart him off and then he comes back hot tomato with swords.

[00:39:25] But as he points out, he's a prisoner still with better quarters.

[00:39:30] But are not, aren't a lot of them prisoners in their own?

[00:39:33] I think that's what Mariko feels behind their eightfold fence.

[00:39:37] Exactly.

[00:39:38] Because they're all so formally slotted into this structure that they're all prisoners

[00:39:45] in a way.

[00:39:46] Yeah.

[00:39:47] So she says something this episode that's like when we live and then we die and that's it.

[00:39:53] That's what we have to count on.

[00:39:55] Right.

[00:39:56] Right.

[00:39:57] I just love the way that Blackthorn is fusing with his swords when they're out in the

[00:40:03] morning for that demonstration.

[00:40:04] He's trying to get him in the 80s miniseries.

[00:40:08] He just wears them perfectly and he struts around with them.

[00:40:11] And it's just so hilarious.

[00:40:12] And in this one, he's just so bumbling and foolish and he's like trying to, you know,

[00:40:16] they're so weird.

[00:40:17] I probably cut himself if he tried to actually draw one of those.

[00:40:21] Yeah.

[00:40:23] Fun stuff.

[00:40:24] Shall we move on to Yabashige and Nagakado?

[00:40:26] Sounds good.

[00:40:27] Sounds good.

[00:40:28] Sounds good.

[00:40:29] Are they in the infantry still or are they now the Navy?

[00:40:33] I think they're Marines, that's what Marines are.

[00:40:35] Okay.

[00:40:36] The infantry of the Navy.

[00:40:38] The infantry of the Navy.

[00:40:39] Yeah.

[00:40:40] That.

[00:40:41] Yabashige, you know, we were, we were debating last week who is he loyal to.

[00:40:47] I think we know as well as he does at this point.

[00:40:50] He's loyal to himself, as Alicia said, of one point.

[00:40:53] Yes.

[00:40:54] Yeah.

[00:40:55] He's not know with side to pick.

[00:40:57] Well, and he's in such a bind.

[00:40:59] Yeah.

[00:41:00] He's so stuck because he's got open allegiances to, well, not open, but he's so in the pocket

[00:41:08] for a shido.

[00:41:10] But he, the moment he says he's not with to our Nagga, you know, that's it from that side.

[00:41:16] So he's completely in a, he's in a, in a really rock in a heart place.

[00:41:21] So I think this is, this is my thought on where he's at.

[00:41:25] If there were no oaths, he would be with the shido because he thinks the shido is stronger.

[00:41:31] And their buddies, right?

[00:41:32] They even, they swapped war stories at one point in I think episode two.

[00:41:36] Yeah.

[00:41:37] Yeah.

[00:41:38] But one, there are oaths and there are harsh consequences for breaking oaths in the society.

[00:41:44] Right.

[00:41:45] And his territory is probably well inside of Toronaga's territory as well.

[00:41:49] Yeah.

[00:41:50] Yeah.

[00:41:51] He's a vessel of Toronaga, right?

[00:41:53] Yeah.

[00:41:54] He controls a large part of Toronaga's territory.

[00:41:57] But but also by the end of this episode, he's basically cemented in being on team Toronaga

[00:42:06] now.

[00:42:07] Yeah.

[00:42:08] I mean, he's the commander of this group and they kill everybody who came to check on him.

[00:42:12] Like they're not sending anybody back.

[00:42:14] Yeah.

[00:42:15] He's done.

[00:42:16] That's who he's on the side of now.

[00:42:17] Yeah.

[00:42:18] There's no panic at the end, right?

[00:42:19] Yeah.

[00:42:20] Because he's pretty sure that Toronaga is going down.

[00:42:22] He was trying to figure out, you know, he's talking to Omi like maybe if Toronaga goes

[00:42:26] down, I will then have the guns and then I can, I can go and do my own thing.

[00:42:33] Omi is telling him to play both sides basically and just pick the winner side and give them

[00:42:37] the guns.

[00:42:38] Yeah.

[00:42:39] Yeah, basically.

[00:42:40] Yeah.

[00:42:41] And he was already sort of upstaged when Toronaga, when his troops started shouting

[00:42:49] out in Toronaga's name.

[00:42:52] And so he's, he's feeling yeah, he doesn't have a good footing anywhere.

[00:43:00] I mean, if he would just be okay, I'm 100% Toronaga, he'd have a position, right?

[00:43:06] But he's in a really slippery slope right now.

[00:43:09] Right.

[00:43:10] But I think also, you know, we were debating last week too why Toronaga would put him

[00:43:15] in charge when he has such dubious loyalty and I think Toronaga knows that absolutely

[00:43:21] I'm positive is keep your enemies close.

[00:43:25] Yep.

[00:43:26] And that implicating him in this plot forces him to be a part of it and forces him to

[00:43:33] be on the side.

[00:43:35] And if that was the plan, 5d chess, 5d chess, Toronaga.

[00:43:41] Seriously, just like the way that he used Blackthorn and Blackthorns quote unquote execution

[00:43:49] or like, you know, what do we do with him?

[00:43:52] That he predicted how it would play amongst the other, the three Christian regions and

[00:43:59] how that that would separate them from Ishido.

[00:44:03] So he's looking exactly 5d chess moves down the way.

[00:44:08] Right.

[00:44:09] So I don't know that he would have predicted that his son would have started a war.

[00:44:14] No, that was.

[00:44:15] At this stage?

[00:44:17] That's a question I want to pose when we get to Ome which is an exception.

[00:44:22] But so Yabashige really, I would say throws himself into this canon training, right?

[00:44:27] The minute he's impressed with it, he's like, yes, this is the thing to do and it's kind

[00:44:32] of interesting to watch him really be passionate about something and not just be the plotter,

[00:44:37] be like, yeah.

[00:44:39] He's like watching football on Sunday.

[00:44:41] Right.

[00:44:42] He's having a great time with Blackthorn.

[00:44:43] Well, and he's the Nagakato next to him being so insecure and just like, and it really,

[00:44:50] it felt very natural.

[00:44:51] It felt like the son of a great leader feeling like he's in the shadow and then being placed

[00:44:57] second to this guy who he knows his dad doesn't really like very much and that his dad doesn't

[00:45:01] really trust.

[00:45:02] Well, dad, why won't you put me in charge?

[00:45:05] You can trust no one's on.

[00:45:07] Yeah, that's interesting.

[00:45:11] That's interesting and why did he put his son with that's a really good question.

[00:45:15] What is the chest move there?

[00:45:17] I mean, it's to watch him, I think.

[00:45:20] It's two things.

[00:45:21] It's actually three things.

[00:45:22] I'm going to say three now.

[00:45:24] One, to watch him and learn.

[00:45:27] Two, the whole Yabashige accountable.

[00:45:30] Three.

[00:45:31] So that when somebody has to take the fall for this plan, his son can have plausible

[00:45:36] deniability.

[00:45:37] Right.

[00:45:38] I mean, I can totally see how it's trapped.

[00:45:41] Yabashige, there's just no matter what happens.

[00:45:44] Yabashige is just, he's ensnared.

[00:45:46] Yeah.

[00:45:47] There's no way for him to get out.

[00:45:49] And Yabashige kind of gets that when he learns that Tornaga resigned from the council.

[00:45:56] He's like, oh my god, we're dead.

[00:45:58] He literally walks up to him and goes, so you're going to kill yourself now.

[00:46:02] Right?

[00:46:03] He's like, oh thank you for the suggestion.

[00:46:05] Yabashige.

[00:46:06] He's the delivery of that line was so funny.

[00:46:11] It was so good.

[00:46:13] Yeah.

[00:46:14] And Tornaga wasn't in this episode much but where he was, he was great.

[00:46:18] So can we talk about Tornaga just now?

[00:46:20] I don't see.

[00:46:21] Oh yeah, because he's there for like two minutes.

[00:46:24] So I didn't even give him his own section.

[00:46:25] Well, actually I'll save it for the favorite section because I've got a, I have a favorite

[00:46:30] moment.

[00:46:31] Well, I've got, I've got the council later.

[00:46:33] Okay.

[00:46:34] I've got the council.

[00:46:35] We'll talk about the council politics.

[00:46:36] That's our last section.

[00:46:37] Well, I've got a Tornaga, but Tornaga is in my favorite moments for the episode.

[00:46:40] So we'll save that till then.

[00:46:41] All right, fair enough.

[00:46:44] You know, let's just move on to Ome because that's pretty much what instigates this whole

[00:46:48] thing.

[00:46:49] Yeah.

[00:46:51] What was Ome's intended outcome of talking to Nagakado?

[00:46:55] Hmm.

[00:46:56] Was it this because I don't think so.

[00:46:58] I don't think it was this.

[00:46:59] I don't think, I think he was goading him into doing something foolish that would embarrass

[00:47:05] himself or would get him in trouble because Ome is trying to get his uncle because he

[00:47:14] wants his uncle to move up so that he can move up, right?

[00:47:17] Right.

[00:47:18] Like you know, it's very, you know, yeah, everybody, everybody in the chain of command,

[00:47:24] it doesn't matter.

[00:47:25] I can't promote it until you do.

[00:47:26] Exactly.

[00:47:27] Yeah.

[00:47:28] And so he's trying to get him to get promoted.

[00:47:30] Is he really on Isshido side or Tornaga side?

[00:47:33] Or is he just on Yabashugia side?

[00:47:35] I think he's just on Yabashugia side.

[00:47:36] I think he would love to see Yabashugia be the fifth council member.

[00:47:40] Council member.

[00:47:41] Got it.

[00:47:42] So, you know, what the specific action that he was trying to get Nagakado to do, I don't

[00:47:48] know that he had something in mind other than to go to him into doing something childish

[00:47:52] and stupid.

[00:47:53] Yeah.

[00:47:54] Yeah.

[00:47:55] Well, should we write to your dad?

[00:47:56] No, no, no, let's not write to my dad.

[00:47:59] Write to your dad and then like forcing him to do that.

[00:48:02] Not realizing that he was going to actually be so, he's so, what's the word I want to

[00:48:09] say?

[00:48:10] He's so insecure.

[00:48:11] That's what it is.

[00:48:13] Yeah.

[00:48:14] Insecure about his position that he takes even a more dry, I don't think anybody could

[00:48:20] have seen this coming.

[00:48:22] Yeah.

[00:48:23] We talked about the Gundiel, but I think Omi just in general is really into goding in

[00:48:27] this episode both Black Thor and Omi, but it doesn't work on Black Thor.

[00:48:32] Black Thor and just insult him in English and then hands the guns to his wife.

[00:48:37] But yeah, I think Black Thor is somebody who's been in some gold fights before.

[00:48:41] Sure.

[00:48:42] Who is used to banter with the boys?

[00:48:44] Yeah.

[00:48:45] And Black Thor has survived a lot, right?

[00:48:47] He's been through a lot of battles.

[00:48:49] So one dude, like he was going to smoke Omi.

[00:48:52] He had no problem doing that.

[00:48:54] No problem.

[00:48:55] You put Omi and Black Thor in a room with a translator and you have them, you're a rap

[00:49:01] battle.

[00:49:02] And man, I don't think Omi walks away alive.

[00:49:05] No, no.

[00:49:06] He would take him to pieces.

[00:49:08] No.

[00:49:09] Kiku, however, what's Kiku, his, his courtesan, what is she up to?

[00:49:16] That's his wife.

[00:49:17] That's not his wife, she's a courtesan.

[00:49:19] Are you sure?

[00:49:20] Yeah, yeah, we have it.

[00:49:21] Thought it was.

[00:49:22] No, she was introduced at the, I believe episode one.

[00:49:28] Right.

[00:49:29] During the aforementioned scene which will not be named anymore because it'll spike the

[00:49:36] pukila rating on our show.

[00:49:38] Yeah, so the reason actually that I thought it was his wife was because Wony said he loved

[00:49:45] her.

[00:49:46] The other thing was there was a whole thing in the book in Omi's inner monologue because

[00:49:50] the book bounces around everybody's POV where Omi basically says like, I know my uncle

[00:49:55] Yabashige is really into my wife.

[00:49:57] So I sent her away before Yabashige could come because it's, but it's used in a really

[00:50:04] brilliant way to like teach you about sort of honor and he's like, well, if Yabashige

[00:50:08] actually did anything to my wife, I would have to kill him because of a whole problem.

[00:50:14] Right.

[00:50:15] So just to avoid that whole situation, I'm going to send her away.

[00:50:18] Anyway, interesting stuff but that's clearly I misread this whole scene.

[00:50:22] So I'm just going to let you talk about it.

[00:50:24] So I think that I don't know whose side she's on if she's on Omi's side, if she's on

[00:50:31] her own side, if she's got some other play.

[00:50:34] I don't think they've given us enough to know other than to say that Kiku is up to

[00:50:39] something.

[00:50:41] There was the scene when they are talking and she's playing the musical instrument, which

[00:50:48] I don't know the name of, a little stringed instrument.

[00:50:51] They are talking and scheming and the camera, the scene ends with the camera on her looking

[00:50:59] like hmm, and she's starting to think.

[00:51:02] And then obviously when she's with Omi later and she's saying, oh, you know, batting

[00:51:08] her eyes, you know, wistfully, oh, couldn't you be our Lord?

[00:51:12] So she's pushing some agenda but who's we don't know yet.

[00:51:17] So I think we need to keep an eye on it.

[00:51:19] Yeah, definitely.

[00:51:22] But we've shan't figure it out this episode.

[00:51:24] Instead, we'll talk about another woman who I think we understand more, Mariko.

[00:51:29] Yeah, Mariko Samah.

[00:51:31] They ate fold fence.

[00:51:32] Yeah.

[00:51:33] Let's let's talk about that first and frame this a bit.

[00:51:35] Yeah.

[00:51:37] This idea that you build this fence within your mind and you hide behind it in peace so

[00:51:46] that you don't react to things.

[00:51:49] It's really just intentional dissociating.

[00:51:51] Yes, yeah, that's actually a really good way to put it actually.

[00:51:54] I didn't thought of it that way.

[00:51:56] That's exactly what it is.

[00:51:58] I think blackthorns kind of like, that's sort of fucked up man.

[00:52:03] And it's so interesting because this is a whole culture based around dissociating for

[00:52:12] honor.

[00:52:13] Right.

[00:52:14] And therapists in our culture would be like, yeah, that's incredibly unhealthy.

[00:52:19] You shouldn't do that.

[00:52:20] You shouldn't do that.

[00:52:21] You should know what you're feeling.

[00:52:23] You should know, yeah.

[00:52:24] But then I think let's contrast it with an earlier scene when blackthorns trying to

[00:52:29] get back out to his ship.

[00:52:32] And he's trying to get Miraji to help him who's that remember he's the spy to in the village

[00:52:37] right because they're still looking for the spy.

[00:52:41] Miraji is like, no, no, we can't go and then you know, Mariko comes and says, no, you

[00:52:46] can't go out.

[00:52:47] And he gets pissed off and he throws the ore on the ship around, right?

[00:52:51] He like slams it down.

[00:52:52] He's started about big, big baby tantrum.

[00:52:55] And she just looks at him just like, bro, like control yourself, right?

[00:53:00] That's not how you do it.

[00:53:02] So he's he's not doing eightfold fence in that particular situation.

[00:53:07] But at the same time, look at his honor of women scene and saves them.

[00:53:11] Not having an old yeah, exactly.

[00:53:13] Isn't him not having this really a question saves them everyone's like, well, we're all

[00:53:18] terrified right now because our leader is about to get discovered and at least some of us

[00:53:22] a lot of us are going to die.

[00:53:24] Going to be silent for honor and he's like, the order of women and that just saves them

[00:53:30] all his days.

[00:53:31] He saves them all.

[00:53:32] And I think this goes back to your point earlier about these two, we're looking at

[00:53:36] two cultures with two different cultural imperatives.

[00:53:40] And by putting them together in this situation, it's a really interesting story as opposed

[00:53:43] to, oh, well, here's the European civilized guy who's going to teach the barbarians

[00:53:48] what's what's correct in the world.

[00:53:51] It's like peanut butter and jelly.

[00:53:53] It just goes together like no, no tomorrow.

[00:53:55] I found a really interesting article on the eightfold fence, but I can't find it now.

[00:54:00] And it was a, I started to read it last night, but I couldn't get through it.

[00:54:05] But there's no Wikipedia article on the eightfold fence, but there is a bunch of other writings

[00:54:10] on it.

[00:54:11] It's a thing that's out there.

[00:54:12] So I definitely want to read about it a little bit more and see what the scholars have

[00:54:16] to say.

[00:54:17] For sure, for sure.

[00:54:19] I mean, I would say we even see the eightfold fence in play largely when Mariko is being

[00:54:24] really cold with Fuji.

[00:54:27] When Fuji's like, you know, I just went through all this and now I have to do this.

[00:54:31] And Mariko just sits there and she doesn't say a word.

[00:54:34] She just stands there and says that her and Fuji talks herself into doing it.

[00:54:39] And she's like, oh, that was cruel of me to bring that up when you were just widowed.

[00:54:44] Yep.

[00:54:45] Yep.

[00:54:46] And her fence just got the reaction that she wanted.

[00:54:49] Yep.

[00:54:50] It's really good.

[00:54:51] She put herself right into that spot, trained, right?

[00:54:53] Trains and serious.

[00:54:54] She was a kid.

[00:54:55] So yeah.

[00:54:59] Inside of their shared language, did you write this?

[00:55:02] I did write this inside of my shared language.

[00:55:06] I was like, who wrote this?

[00:55:07] I don't know what this is.

[00:55:08] That's not it.

[00:55:09] It was in a different font so you didn't recognize it.

[00:55:12] In a half baked thought written down because my.

[00:55:15] Well, tell me about it.

[00:55:16] My fingers and my brains aren't connecting well together quite just yet.

[00:55:23] This idea that Blackthorn and Mariko-sama have a world unto themselves because of language.

[00:55:37] And it's not the same as an eightfold fence situation,

[00:55:41] but it's the sense of privacy, this private world that they can share.

[00:55:46] Doesn't she say in one of the previous episodes that there's nothing,

[00:55:51] there's no privacy in this world?

[00:55:53] Like you're constantly around and Blackthorn even gets frustrated with Fuji.

[00:55:59] She's like, she's just following me alone.

[00:56:00] Just tell her to go away.

[00:56:01] Like I just want to like hang out and go to sleep or whatever.

[00:56:06] And so in this world, Mariko-sama is a lady.

[00:56:11] She's got this past that is tragic that we got glimpse of.

[00:56:16] She's a vassal of her Lord.

[00:56:18] She has roles and responsibilities within her society.

[00:56:21] She's taking all the notes during the battle training, right?

[00:56:24] During the canon training.

[00:56:25] So she's like kind of a spy as well or an observer for her Lord.

[00:56:31] And yet here in this language, here's this big goofy puppy dog,

[00:56:35] you know, European guy who actually is, you know, has been charming them.

[00:56:44] And in this world where they to exist,

[00:56:48] she gets to exist outside of her roles and strictures in the Japanese society.

[00:56:53] Right.

[00:56:54] And she can be this other person.

[00:56:56] And I won't say authentic self because I don't think that that's the appropriate way to frame

[00:57:01] this particular part of the conversation.

[00:57:04] Because it's not that she's not that she's unauthentic in her Japanese life,

[00:57:09] but there's a different expression of her that can come out

[00:57:12] in this conversational space with Black Thorn.

[00:57:17] And it's just really interesting that they have this private world

[00:57:21] where they too can exist in.

[00:57:25] And she gets to exist in this new and different way.

[00:57:28] She gets to express herself in a way that she doesn't get to express herself anywhere else.

[00:57:33] And I think that's what ultimately leads to her wanting to pillow with him.

[00:57:38] I can show you the world.

[00:57:42] So our resident ex-pat Alicia actually wrote in the discord that she's no longer an ex-pat.

[00:57:47] She's actually a patriot, a Dutch patriot.

[00:57:52] Okay, well, all right.

[00:57:53] Whatever.

[00:57:54] Our Dutch woman, Alicia wrote that she tends to be more direct in Dutch than in English because

[00:58:04] when you're in a foreign language, you sometimes are more blunt or open

[00:58:07] because it feels like you're a little bit more removed from the statements.

[00:58:10] And I thought that was a really interesting take on Maricopa.

[00:58:14] So we along Thailand has a whole other world, a whole lifetime ago.

[00:58:19] We had some in our friend group.

[00:58:21] We had this one friend of ours who was from Russia.

[00:58:25] And he came over the United States to study and work.

[00:58:30] And then he married his now wife is of a Russian descent but grew up in France, you know,

[00:58:41] French Russian right?

[00:58:42] Because there are a whole bunch of Russians left and went to France at particular times.

[00:58:47] And they both spoke English, Russian and French.

[00:58:52] And we were hanging out in France one time and I was with them and they had just had their

[00:58:56] I think first kid.

[00:58:58] Anyway, something happened where we kind of got sort of locked out of the house and you

[00:59:03] know that the kid and we'd been out at Versailles during the day or whatever.

[00:59:06] And it was so funny seeing them trying to do this little problem solving and switching

[00:59:11] between Russian, English or French depending on the particular thought that they were trying

[00:59:17] to get across the particular technicality of the got to break the window or pick this lock

[00:59:22] or do this thing.

[00:59:24] Or when they were emotionally upset and the different languages that they would fall because

[00:59:27] they were equally fluent in all three languages.

[00:59:31] And watching them switch languages so quickly to express these different things was fascinating

[00:59:38] to watch.

[00:59:39] So I totally get why Alicia could say like in this situation or that situation.

[00:59:44] Definitely and you know we actually had a lot of really good talk about language in

[00:59:49] general.

[00:59:50] I'm actually going to bring in a piece of feedback here because it's short and it's

[00:59:53] really applicable.

[00:59:55] Joe H. wrote in and said great show though I do have a question or nitpick.

[00:59:59] I don't remember if this came up in your discussion of the last episode but how would

[01:00:03] Mariko be able to translate Black Thorns logbook?

[01:00:07] He's an Englishman piloting a Dutch ship.

[01:00:10] So he's not going to record things in Portuguese, the language of his enemies which is what

[01:00:14] he uses to speak with Mariko.

[01:00:16] No one in Japan knows English or Dutch since an adi Joe.

[01:00:20] Oh I didn't introduce you to Cincinnati Joe my apologies Joe Cincinnati Joe.

[01:00:25] That's a really good question actually.

[01:00:28] Nate came to the rescue however.

[01:00:31] Okay.

[01:00:32] In the discord without even being asked the question.

[01:00:34] All right good.

[01:00:35] One of the in the book which I haven't gotten up to this part in the book Black Thorn

[01:00:39] and Mariko also both speak Latin and switch to Latin whenever someone around some speaks

[01:00:45] Portuguese.

[01:00:47] He's glad that they didn't try to shoot horn that in but it seems like this is my charitable

[01:00:52] read on this maybe the logbook is in Latin.

[01:00:55] So you so when I was watching the episode there was a scene at caught my eye where she's

[01:01:04] looking through the rudder and there's a piece of paper that's not bound in the book.

[01:01:09] It's sort of like a loose leaf of piece of paper and she takes that out and then she looks

[01:01:14] at it and the camera gives us a little close up really quickly but very quickly so quickly

[01:01:20] that you can't really read it and then it moves on I took a I rebounded several times

[01:01:25] got a good picture of it and I've got it in the ship's rudder for the episode notes

[01:01:32] and I think it might be in Latin.

[01:01:35] There's a there is there's an English translation burned to hell with circled with a line

[01:01:43] in Ferno and then there's like hell hell hell hell hell something and then there's some other

[01:01:47] line you know so I think that there may be some what I wonder if there is some Latin

[01:01:52] in there yeah yeah good question good question and the Portuguese clearly knew either

[01:02:00] Dutch or English whatever this was in so I don't know yeah I don't know but I think

[01:02:07] that's a good question and a decent answer from I would hope that the showrunners

[01:02:13] and the writers are smart enough to have already thought this through and are anticipating

[01:02:19] that we're starting to question that that would be very cool then so then in a couple

[01:02:24] of episodes the answer to that actually materializes I think I'll be really impressed

[01:02:30] with this show that they played five dimensional chess with us that would be great.

[01:02:35] Yeah I'll also say if they just overlook that detail I'm totally fine with that as well right

[01:02:39] expediency for the plot yeah yep let's talk about the flashbacks yes that Marcos having

[01:02:45] I was going on there I also took pictures I've got one two three four five pictures in

[01:02:53] the ship's rudder for that as well there's a picture of a guy looking very frightened

[01:03:00] very it sort of an intense look then there's a picture of her running the snow then there's

[01:03:08] a picture of two hands clasping and maybe a third hand in the middle with what looks

[01:03:14] to be kind of like a rosary or like a beaded necklace of some kind and then there's

[01:03:19] a picture of her in the snow sort of close up looking very young she looks very like

[01:03:24] a very like half the age here with somebody standing behind her with a sword at their

[01:03:33] hip and looking very very serious looking like something right out of night country actually

[01:03:38] it's too photos look right out of night country so they they purposely have not given

[01:03:44] us enough information yep yep well it's super interesting it does look like she went

[01:03:50] through quite a lot of trauma back there right in her family name is been like dishonored

[01:03:56] like she would have rather because this is part of the tension with her and Fuji is we

[01:04:04] are obliged to continue serving our Lord and if our Lord doesn't give us leave to on

[01:04:11] alive ourselves then we have to carry on no matter how painful that is and know how how

[01:04:19] difficult that burden is right so I think Mariko Salma's shame is even more so than Fuji

[01:04:28] at least Fuji sort of expunged regardless of the fact that her baby is like you know

[01:04:33] like yeah I mean I couldn't imagine setting aside the horror of that yeah yeah it's well I

[01:04:40] don't know well you can't I don't think we should be majoring real lyrics right exactly exactly

[01:04:44] that's where I was going trauma is trauma so so but something really yeah something really happened

[01:04:52] and I think it's gonna I think it's gonna play a big role later down the road obviously right well

[01:04:58] I'm looking forward to finding out yes for now I want to point out you know I mentioned this before

[01:05:03] but she's really trying to get Fuji and Blackthorn to get along this whole he's trying to be kind

[01:05:08] you know be nice to each other at Blackthorn doesn't need to be told he was actually very good

[01:05:14] from the beginning but yeah but Fuji was really not happening it she's also trying to relate to him

[01:05:22] as a hot tomato and and ahead of the household and so she's following the forms doing what she

[01:05:30] knows what to do but he doesn't right so that's the conflict there right she's she's like this is

[01:05:37] you you yell at me if I didn't do this well he would yell anyway because he's just

[01:05:41] drum back well I did really love by the end of the episode and she does it a couple times but

[01:05:46] she's you know correcting his Japanese trying to really help me uh E you know she she tries

[01:05:52] to make it be the total part of it yep yep which is another extremely difficult thing about non-romantic

[01:05:59] languages um a little aspect I think for us who grew up with romantic languages where we can just

[01:06:05] talk like this and you can still understand what we're saying like John Blackthorn just you know

[01:06:09] I could just talk like this all day and people could understand what I'm saying um the oh

[01:06:15] shoot I was gonna say I had a thought about something oh I know it was in the 80s mini series and

[01:06:21] it may be this way in the book the commandment from Torinaga was not to train troops but to go learn

[01:06:29] language and go and and learn Japanese as quickly as possible and they actually put the whole town

[01:06:37] is set to that thing and basically like well everybody in the town's gonna die if you don't learn

[01:06:41] Japanese so you know but you better learn Japanese that's not great no as opposed to an incentive

[01:06:48] where this one is he's learning the language as a byproduct of them doing the the military training

[01:06:53] and in the 80s mini series uh it was learn language and then oh I'll show you guys how to shoot

[01:07:01] as a byproduct of me just being around here so it's sort of an inverted uh situation interesting

[01:07:09] yeah I do love to how marico is just translating Blackthorn so charredly when he's like

[01:07:17] I'll piss on your skibbies and she goes with the utmost respect the engine sun

[01:07:27] it's very funny it's very funny well again the humor of this the show is so spot on and it makes

[01:07:33] it makes these deadly situations a lot more palatable yeah yeah can you imagine if uh

[01:07:40] Martin father Alvito was translating well he insulted your mother and all of her generations before

[01:07:47] right right you ever you ever watched those videos of the people who pretended to be sign language

[01:07:54] translators no do you know about this no I've been two people two separate people who've been caught

[01:08:01] faking their resumes about ASL translation and they're doing like government functions

[01:08:07] what they can't they're just doing like dances that's ridiculous uh they people finally you know

[01:08:14] call in there like hey just so you know they're doing gibberish and we'd like them to not

[01:08:18] and uh anyway I'm just I'm just wondering should we get that for Blackthorn something like that

[01:08:23] possibly quite possibly marco son sama is actually uh is absolutely charmed by Blackthorns imaginary

[01:08:33] London date and later she takes her reward how was that for a um uh beautiful

[01:08:42] perfectly situated hot springs over the cliff looking out into the ocean I guess it wasn't

[01:08:49] it probably wasn't an accident right they probably built it you sure right there was a natural spring

[01:08:54] that then they yeah that they but it was like it's like gang that is that you could charge a lot of

[01:08:59] money for that I know I know but there that's just that's just how you bathe who was it did somebody

[01:09:04] post that was I see that in the discord the the Twitter reposted in the in the discord about um

[01:09:10] somebody saying about yeah here it is there's a picture of somebody who is very

[01:09:19] enticed by Blackthorns date wanting to find out more details it was hilarious that's pretty funny

[01:09:25] yeah it was it was very cute and and it was it was very wholesome and uh I love that they're backs

[01:09:31] returned towards each other that was really I don't know there was something intimate about it

[01:09:35] yeah no it was done really well uh the way he when he comes out of the water and he sort of

[01:09:40] covers himself and they sit there yeah it was very sweet he really respects the honor of women as we

[01:09:46] know uh we talked about her morning comment of oh yeah we hope you like the court of sons we don't

[01:09:53] have to recap that but she played it there and go just that she played it so perfectly that morning

[01:09:58] like there is no way to know right she and the way he's about to ask like what do you do it in here

[01:10:04] and she just puts her hand on his mouth like shut the heck up we are gonna do some things right now

[01:10:11] and you are gonna be quiet the cloud in the rain right yeah the moment of cloud and rain or whatever

[01:10:17] so the council David yes sir let's talk about him Torinaga has resigned slowing down operations but

[01:10:27] Ishi do sends josen to check on Yabashi ye yeah josen of course was chosen for a terrible mission

[01:10:37] yes unbeknownst to everybody involved um the idea that he's not upset that he's been completely

[01:10:49] dismembered but that that he's dying and undignified and under you know manner right right

[01:10:58] right you blew me up how uncivilized of you you you you savage barbarians right you you shot

[01:11:04] me with a cannon from the woodline you know 200 300 yards away and I think we were talking about

[01:11:10] this little bit before this idea that whenever warfare changes and the technology changes

[01:11:15] this idea of like well that's uncivilized how that's barbaric how can you drop bombs from the air

[01:11:21] that's ridiculous right and it's like well yeah if you're on the other side of that technology

[01:11:26] change and you didn't know it was coming you certainly would probably try to find some defenses

[01:11:32] to your honor uh in that regard so yeah josen josen was not happy it's a poor workman who blames

[01:11:39] his tools well and it does go there there is a point at least with japanese swordsmanship right where

[01:11:47] this idea of you know that you're training and that you're sort of one with your blade and you know

[01:11:52] you these efficient movements and you strike and and all of that kind of stuff versus just getting shot

[01:11:59] with a piece of artillery from across the way right you know I it is insulting in in the sense of

[01:12:07] I've trained for years to be a beautiful artist and now some you know chat gpt you know BS can

[01:12:14] can make art almost as good as mine right that's I get it right yeah yeah I get it I get it

[01:12:22] at the same time get good yeah right we it's here yeah that's what that's what john blackthorne would say

[01:12:28] right yeah tough shit we're gonna win the war right right yeah yeah but shige we mentioned is

[01:12:36] playing both sides he's trying to avoid sapuku and he offers a display of power like what was

[01:12:42] the plan here right so you offer a display of power you basically say sure let's go but I'm

[01:12:47] gonna show you how good this stuff is that way when you bring me to ishito he will bargain with me

[01:12:56] is that or I say jose and you go back and you say you know all to uh uh when when the when the time

[01:13:03] comes I'll turn my guns around and declare for you so that's what he wanted to show jose in

[01:13:11] that he has the these guns and what they can do so that then ishito has a ace in the hole

[01:13:18] that he can play yep which is okay yeah but shige turning the guns on tornaga in the right moment

[01:13:26] that's a rough that's a rough yeah not as rough as what naga kato does naga kato effectively blows up

[01:13:34] the piece along with the body parts yeah and uh yeah well uh and now they're just gone right there's

[01:13:42] no there's there they're there what happens what do you do how do you do you send their heads back

[01:13:49] in boxes um I don't know if their heads are still intact or do you just do um you know

[01:13:56] do you do like dune and feed them to the worms you know where then there's just no evidence left

[01:14:02] so but there's a lot of people who saw that so i'm sure somebody's you know there's got to be

[01:14:05] other little spies right right right words gonna get around i'm sure i'm sure let's try to

[01:14:12] couple favorite moments sure david i really love seeing black thorn be sweet and the you know

[01:14:19] the gun gift the imaginary date i i thought we saw a side of black thorn that we hadn't seen before

[01:14:26] and relatedly i really like the hilarious translations by marico right but it was also nice

[01:14:32] seeing food you become more comfortable with black thorn i really the the interpersonal relationships

[01:14:37] this episode where the highlight i thought um nice and and uh also with you what uh what's your

[01:14:45] favorite moments i've got three of them particularly that really wowed me uh tree three tree

[01:14:54] what is there you be is this a bit i'm being new york okay got it huge huge uh what's a yut all right go on

[01:15:03] toranaga bowing was so baller like it is toranaga who bows humbly before you and he's got the whole

[01:15:13] fan thing going and he's all kind of he's like he's like oh he's like we're in duet match with

[01:15:18] men savage you know he's like shaking and like you know really really getting into it and

[01:15:24] it was just such an amazing performance by uh hero key sonata it was so good but the real baller

[01:15:33] move was when everybody turns around and he's already on the boat halfway back to his boats it's just like

[01:15:40] out i'm gone and nobody knows right they're just like okay let's go have some sake and whatever

[01:15:45] and they're like wait huh uh it was so just it cracked me the hell up it was so great to see

[01:15:53] and it was just very cool acting uh it was very awesome the other thing that

[01:16:00] the my other two favorite moments are both Fuji related when Fuji gives him the swords

[01:16:09] like that was super touching and it was just really a cool gesture and i just i think i called it out

[01:16:17] in the previous episode where we lingered on a shot of her family swords from uh from her husband

[01:16:26] and so that they were gonna come back into play so uh perfect perfect way to bring those those back in

[01:16:32] but the other really great moment was when Fuji yells at black thorn and she says

[01:16:37] angin's up and she like says like knock it off give me the gun right this is like ridiculous and she

[01:16:45] just gives it she just belts at him and it jolts everybody and it just was such a beautiful

[01:16:53] moment of her character exerting dominance and agency in the moment in the expediency of the moment

[01:17:00] so yeah those are those are my two other favorites just so many powder kegs in this episode

[01:17:07] and the one that exploded was the worst one right

[01:17:13] well we'll see where that goes next week yeah for now David we have one piece of feedback

[01:17:18] i wanted to bring in we had some more but i've interspersed right you waved it waved it uh i'm weaving

[01:17:24] the weaves the weaves are we like our weaves again what's that are we in the wheel of time again

[01:17:30] no we are not we're not there yet are you sure are you sure i'm i'm stalling because i'm finding

[01:17:36] the email okay Michael and Sally G wrote in and said thanks uh thanks so much for a great way

[01:17:44] the great way you're diving into the shogun series if you haven't already you may want to dive into

[01:17:49] James clavelle the novels author it seems his first experience with japanese culture came through

[01:17:56] years spent on a prison camp in singapore his first book king rat is a loosely fictionalized account

[01:18:02] great writer and screenwriter besides all the great aija focus books he wrote he also wrote the fly

[01:18:08] the vince of price version yeah the great escape to sir with love and a few other movies that look

[01:18:13] interesting but i've never had a chance to see about us chinese immigrants and japanese internment

[01:18:19] camp victims incredibly talented writer with a great range that's that's interesting do you

[01:18:24] did you know about this big range david yes we talked a little bit about it in the opening episode

[01:18:30] well that was a long time ago i was really surprised that he wrote to sir with love i had no idea

[01:18:36] that that's something that would have been in this range to write but yeah really really fascinating

[01:18:41] guy with a really rich history and going from being a president of war to being a very successful

[01:18:47] television writer is quite the swing so yeah and and big books too like you know you talk about

[01:18:55] uh george ar martin in the song of ice and fire clavelle was doing this back in the eighties

[01:19:01] and he was dropping these heavy heavy books uh well researched you know incredibly detailed

[01:19:07] you know he made me he made out of his point of view wrong in and some his you know uh

[01:19:12] stitching some things together for plot reasons that are historically inaccurate but there's a lot

[01:19:19] of historical accuracy in all of his books so cool yep well thanks for writing in of course if you

[01:19:25] listener want to write in you can write into shogun at the lorehounds.com you could go to the lorehounds.com

[01:19:31] get to the contact page send us a voicemail we love the voicemails or just a contact for entry

[01:19:36] go to our discord chat with us if you want something included feel free to tag us we are on the

[01:19:41] discord as our names for now we've got to close this episode out David so tell me what we're doing next

[01:19:48] what are we doing next well um we should talk a little bit about our subscribing if you're

[01:19:53] interested in supporting the community and getting access to some great benefits like our second

[01:20:00] breakfast podcast which is exclusive just for subscribers where we talk about life the universe

[01:20:06] and everything take a lot of listener feedback you're doing your silver alien letters of Tolkien what's

[01:20:12] a chireside chat say that then times fast as well we've got the show tracker we haven't talked

[01:20:19] about the show tracker in quite a while it's using the notion database stuff again but a very curated

[01:20:25] list of television shows throughout the year and you can actually line up you can see him in a sort

[01:20:30] of a gantt chart view so you can see what's overlapping when things are starting then of course

[01:20:35] then we've got these uh show guides that were putting together we did one for true detective and

[01:20:40] now for show gun for fallout we've got one already set up Adrian is or not sorry Adrian Aaron Kay

[01:20:47] has already set up the big one of those and so that is um just it adds a lot of richness and

[01:20:54] extra contextual information to stuff and as people find things we can we've got a place we can

[01:20:59] put them and share them so very cool and again subscribers you know you're not just supporting

[01:21:04] john and i this is actually about our co-hosts and all of the community spaces and the tools that we

[01:21:09] use so be great if you are someone inclined to join us on supercast or patreon cool

[01:21:18] of course yes you can join our discord server if you want to get in on the conversation without

[01:21:22] being a subscriber yeah or if you want to be a subscriber everybody's in there everybody's there

[01:21:27] uh and we have a great time we have a lot of great conversation we pulled from it tonight so you

[01:21:30] got a little taste that's right we've got our affiliates yes rings and rituals just started up

[01:21:36] that's Maryland our peculiar our favorite Tolkien scholar doing another another Tolkien pod if you

[01:21:41] didn't have enough yet uh we she is covering the first season of the Lord of the Rings the Rings

[01:21:47] of Power with Dr Sarah Brown and they are going through with the lens of ritual i was actually just

[01:21:53] on an interview on that podcast it's not out yet but it will be out so make sure you subscribe to

[01:21:58] that feed if you want to hear Maryland's takes they're very good i've listened to episode one so far

[01:22:04] and it's really great wool shift dust is coming back huh yeah i'm uh uh leashes got some stuff

[01:22:12] cooking she's got some star wars stuff that she's about to break out so stay tuned for that

[01:22:17] and i know she's got some things in the dune pipeline speaking and i'll tell we'll talk about dune

[01:22:23] here in just a second as well so she's she's cooking she's cooking get ready because she's going to drop

[01:22:29] some drops some tasty meals on our ear i don't know you can't i'm mixing my metaphors horribly

[01:22:35] there are many metaphors moving on moving on you're mixing your notto and yeah don't mix your

[01:22:40] notto so uh properly howard move your view is our other affiliate and Anthony and Steve are on a

[01:22:47] little break but i know Anthony's gonna be back with you soon to talk about dune so why don't you tell

[01:22:51] us a little bit about that yeah i was just gonna say about properly howard to they have the next

[01:22:56] they have a concept for their next season but they're putting the season together and then when

[01:23:00] they're um growing they're ready to go they'll let us know and of course we're going to do severance

[01:23:04] with them as soon as we know whenever severance is going to come back but yeah swinging back around

[01:23:09] to lore hounds content we are going to be recording a podcast for dune part two and it's going to be

[01:23:16] elisha anthony and our friend ron Dawson uh joining in as well and we're going to go in for a

[01:23:26] kind of a free ranging wide discussion one that doesn't have a lot of structure i just sort of

[01:23:32] wanted to bring the gang together and and see what kind of conversations trouble we can get into

[01:23:38] i am literally just back from seeing it for a second time um and i'm really excited to

[01:23:45] to talk about dune two so we're recording that relative to when we're recording this tomorrow

[01:23:52] and then as soon as i can get that edited in out the door probably some point over the weekend will be

[01:23:57] that'll be out cool other stuff we've got going on i know we have to get scheduled our new hope

[01:24:05] podcast so we can get back on our star wars train um we are doing you guys are doing halo right

[01:24:11] we're doing a halo episode it's happening okay it's on it's on the docket we just uh brine a

[01:24:15] brand and a sick right now okay it's got like the monear something he's not feeling well okay so

[01:24:20] uh we will have that scheduled to soon and you're doing that with john right as well

[01:24:23] john is going to be there we're gonna talk so we're gonna talk mostly the games and i think

[01:24:28] john is gonna pitch us season two of halo okay that's going to be the deal with that that'll be fun

[01:24:33] to i started avatar the last airbender i'm not talking about it on air

[01:24:40] i'm just not gonna talk about it maybe on second breakfast all right yeah that would be a good

[01:24:45] place for it second breakfast yeah yeah earthsea is coming we uh i know you were sick david yeah

[01:24:51] we got pushed back a little bit but that'll be coming soon we got a record of similar early in

[01:24:56] story that'll be coming we've got a masters of the air uh book end as well so we we're

[01:25:02] gonna wrap that season up as well because that's just ended yeah and of course you just did

[01:25:07] Oscars coverage with elisha yes we did we did four podcasts about the Oscars and that was a lot

[01:25:11] of fun and thanks for john for filling in for me on on one of those and i'm really excited for

[01:25:15] next year because i think we're gonna basically do similar to what we did this year but

[01:25:24] more planned out like we're gonna plan our our moves out a little bit more but we had a lot of

[01:25:28] fun we brought in a lot of different community voices folks from our uh from our discord sheen

[01:25:35] and adran and danie and a number of other people in elisha we talked of marlin and we talked to

[01:25:43] some people that elisha knows about films and stuff it was it was a lot of fun it was a very

[01:25:47] cool project and i think it's gonna be a big part of what we do next year as well cool all right one

[01:25:54] more thing our patreon lore masters yes they are some archon mark h michael g michele david w

[01:26:03] brion p nick w sc peter o h patina w adam s nancy m dove 71 brion a d 63 freddric eight sarah

[01:26:12] el garret c aric f math u m sarah m dj mewa andra b quang you dead i jedi bob nathan t alix v eranty sub zero

[01:26:23] erant k dally v 21 narals and adrian who will be last on the list until the day we stop making podcast

[01:26:34] here in the more yeah david it's been a blast thank you so much um thanks again uh for elisha for

[01:26:43] the coverage uh we might have to have her back for season rap she seems to be enjoying the season

[01:26:47] a lot as well so yeah that'd be fun yeah see you next week

[01:26:52] the lore hans podcast is produced and published by the lore hans you can send questions and feedback

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