Shōgun - E09 - Crimson Sky

[00:00:00] Hey listeners, Aaron here. If you're watching Fallout on Amazon Prime Video then we have

[00:00:10] just the podcast for you. Radioactive Ramblings is joined The Lorehounds Network. We are going

[00:00:15] to be breaking down the show episode by episode, making far-fetched theories and dropping

[00:00:19] some tidbits of lore. If you want to hear us ramble, tune into Radioactive Ramblings

[00:00:24] linked in the show notes. We hope to have you join us in the Wasteland.

[00:00:30] Welcome to the Shogun Podcast where The Lorehounds, your guides to the political intrigues of feudal

[00:00:52] Japan. I'm David.

[00:00:54] I'm John and this is our coverage for episode nine titled Crimson Sky of the FX-Loredade series,

[00:01:02] The Marigoshow. Shogun. Shogun is what this show is really called. We're already punchy. Shogun.

[00:01:10] Oh, is it my turn? Okay. Leave it in. Leave it in. We're going to start off with our hot

[00:01:16] takes for the episode. And then we're going to get into a little bit of a discussion of the

[00:01:21] plot and character along with some of our favorite moments. We've got a couple of listener feedback

[00:01:26] emails, so we'll answer those after that. Please send us that feedback as we love to hear your

[00:01:33] thoughts and reactions. Send it to Shogun at TheLorehounds.com or head to the contact page

[00:01:38] on our website, TheLorehounds.com, and use the form or record us a voicemail that we can drop

[00:01:43] into the podcast.

[00:01:45] And I'll just push the fact that we're going to have a season wrap up that'll drop probably

[00:01:52] about a week after the last one, so make sure to send in your feedback to those places wherever

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[00:02:11] can join the conversation. We've got an active and fun conversation. We're in the middle of doing a big

[00:02:16] reorganization to have our Discord because it's growing so much. And we've got a lot of affiliate

[00:02:21] podcasts, so we've got a lot of things going on. Check out the show notes for links to all of

[00:02:27] those things. We'll talk about a bunch of that stuff at the end of the podcast.

[00:02:30] We sure do have a lot going on, David. I've recorded five of the last six nights

[00:02:34] trying to push the content out into the ear holes.

[00:02:37] Got to keep the bits flowing into people's ear holes.

[00:02:40] It's true. That's just a weird thing. It's so weird. Anyway, carry on.

[00:02:45] All right. Let's get the jokes out of the way now because I don't think there's going to be a

[00:02:48] lot of jokes this episode. Boy, was this a heavy episode of Shogun?

[00:02:54] Yeah, it was awesome. It was. It was awesome. Anna Swai is a monster.

[00:03:01] She is an actor. I didn't realize that she had this level of skill and depth

[00:03:08] and range in her acting. Some of her facial looks, her fighting sequences in this, the whole thing was

[00:03:15] just an incredible performance. And I'm just so, I just feel so lucky that we get to watch

[00:03:23] such an accomplished actor on screen, just swinging out big and just taking this role

[00:03:32] and exploding it into something that there's no way. Sorry, I had to go with the explosion joke.

[00:03:39] Another thing I wanted to mention about this scene or this episode was during the courtyard

[00:03:48] fight scene, the way that they use the camera. If you get a chance, go back and just watch

[00:03:54] that scene and watch how they push in and they use the camera with these slow pull,

[00:04:00] push-ins or pull backs. It's not a zoom in. It's like the camera is like moving in closer or

[00:04:06] moving back and they do it very subtly during different parts to ramp the tension. It's incredible.

[00:04:13] And then just the choreography and the way that the whole courtyard scene is set up,

[00:04:18] just shot by shot. Absolutely incredible masterclass in television production.

[00:04:24] Just the way that Mariko and some of the other noble women walk is so interesting and impressive.

[00:04:36] I'm not going to move my torso very much. I'm just going to very subtly move my legs forward.

[00:04:41] I'm going to be slow even when it's an urgent matter. And it's so different than the way

[00:04:48] that we walk. And it feels so performed but natural for them. Do you even notice how they

[00:04:54] hold their hands in the center, the way that they hold their robes? It's very precise and it's

[00:05:01] incredible. The level of detail in this is wild. I love this whole episode because it's just

[00:05:09] more theatrics from Torinaga. We talked in some previous episodes about no theater,

[00:05:17] the kind of theater that nobles would put on and play in. This is a giant no theater play

[00:05:24] that Torinaga is directing real time. This whole thing with Mariko going there, it's all theater.

[00:05:33] And it's just an absolutely crazy wild plan and it's just incredible to watch.

[00:05:41] The last little thing I had just besides all the things that we need to talk about,

[00:05:48] I heard on the Ringer podcast they were talking about this and they picked up some information

[00:05:52] from somewhere else that it was somebody who's a Japanese speaker wrote in to comment

[00:05:59] about how Torinaga and Hiromatsu were talking to each other and how they were using certain

[00:06:06] language tenses to indicate a higher degree of familiarity and the way that they were just even

[00:06:13] using Japanese language that you and I aren't going to pick up on. But that it's embedded

[00:06:20] in the performance, it's embedded in the dialogue, it's embedded in the way that the actors are

[00:06:25] working so that that relationship between Torinaga and Hiromatsu is so it's all there.

[00:06:31] It's three dimensional, it's fully, I don't know what to say. There's no surface level stuff here,

[00:06:40] everything goes 10 levels deep and I just found that to be a really incredible fact that they

[00:06:45] are paying that much attention to detail. Well even just this episode I noticed they're using

[00:06:50] this Dono suffix so much more than they have in previous episodes where they're usually

[00:06:56] using Sama. And I looked it up and Dono is basically like one level of politeness lower.

[00:07:07] It's like a Millord instead of saying my lord. Okay, so it's a little bit more casual? Yeah.

[00:07:13] A little bit more relaxed. But it's almost like I could be wrong about this but I got the sense

[00:07:19] from my reading that it's a little bit like yeah we're on the same level or yeah I'm a little

[00:07:24] bit higher than you. You know what I mean? Like it's a little bit of a put down almost.

[00:07:29] It could either be that or friendly but it's like I'm not your buddy pal, right? You know what I mean?

[00:07:36] Right, right, right. Hey pal. Yeah, yeah. Hey my lord. How you doing? My lord.

[00:07:42] So yeah I just thought all those details really worked together really well.

[00:07:47] Yeah so Crimson Sky we've got a lot of character and plot stuff. I don't think I have much history.

[00:07:55] I don't think you had any history notes either. No everything that came up really we've discussed

[00:07:59] before like you did the whole poetry thing last episode that would have been good this

[00:08:03] episode too but we already did it go back to the last episode. Right. I think that the thing

[00:08:07] that I was interested in and I did not have a chance to research it's been a crazy couple

[00:08:11] days for me in real life but I really wanted to find out more about Japanese fighting armor and then

[00:08:17] also Japanese longbow because that made during the courtyard seat seen there was a really important

[00:08:27] that two of the main dudes got taken down by bows and then they hit them but anyway we can talk

[00:08:31] about it when we get to the courtyard. Right. But I'm really interested in Japanese armor and

[00:08:35] I started to read about it. The the short answer is the armor has evolved over time with materials

[00:08:42] and as they started trading and as weaponry started to change they it's the same armor

[00:08:47] development that any other country in the world has gone through and so but it's obviously very

[00:08:53] beautiful and it's designed basically around their fighting styles and about what they needed

[00:08:58] to do whether you were horseback or you on on the on where you were fighting on the ground

[00:09:04] what have you but yeah there's some some cool stuff I'm gonna read some more maybe I'll talk

[00:09:08] about it next episode. That sounds good that could be even in the season wrap you could talk

[00:09:12] about whatever you want because there's no rules anymore on the season wrap. I'm sure Nate

[00:09:17] will have some information very interesting information about Japanese armor absolutely

[00:09:21] or if anybody else has any definitely write in yeah because I'm just going to read some

[00:09:25] articles on the internet so well David I'm devastated and also delighted by this whole episode

[00:09:32] and I just I'm I'm awashed with emotions I can't deal with myself right now this was

[00:09:40] my favorite episode of TV all year for sure so far it's gonna be a tough season of TV to beat

[00:09:48] yeah this is my number one of the year so far I mean there hasn't been that many but

[00:09:52] so far I mean this is high high high quality TV. It's gonna be a good top 10 year this year to

[00:09:59] rank all of our shows because we've got some big quality we've got the bear coming back we've got

[00:10:03] House of the Dragon coming back yeah maybe rings a power maybe rings of power maybe severance

[00:10:08] and or at least we don't have to put an end or into that ranking list god that would be hard

[00:10:14] yeah because they said 25 we were very clear about 25 yeah oh I didn't hear that they're not

[00:10:18] gonna that stinks that stinks but I get it I'd rather them I'd rather them you know do do it right

[00:10:24] and take their time with it rather than try to cram it in at the end yeah well we'll see what

[00:10:28] happens well we have a surprise guest here much like Mariko in the middle of the episode

[00:10:33] we have a surprise guest to give her hot takes please welcome Alicia or the recording of Alicia

[00:10:41] hi Lorhounds maintaining the new tradition of keeping listeners to Lorhounds show gun

[00:10:45] coverage on their toes you never know what voices or format you'll get each week now this time I'm

[00:10:51] starting with my hot take here since I can't unfortunately be with the guys to record and

[00:10:57] then I will drop in also my thoughts in the fourth fourth key characters and events of this

[00:11:03] episode which the guys can play as they talk through now yeah this was actually the best

[00:11:10] episode I know I've said that every single week but this time I really really mean it

[00:11:15] but oh my god my heart I thought I lost nearly a year of my life I think just watching Mariko try

[00:11:22] to exit and then just have that yo-yo and have it end the way that it did it's just oh

[00:11:30] it is heartening to see I guess that the Torinaga trickery from last episode works on at least

[00:11:36] some people so Hiramatsu didn't completely die in vain and it was also nice to see some slightly

[00:11:42] more realistic ninjas or as they were called shinobi and I actually had a look this up and

[00:11:48] learn something ninja is the Chinese word and shinobi no mono means one who endures or hides

[00:11:56] or shinobi for sure that's the native Japanese word so I learned something there

[00:12:00] um now apparently on the official podcast they say this is still a somewhat hollow

[00:12:06] hollywoodified version but they showed at least that these are peasants who are just like

[00:12:10] scrapping together whatever clothing and armor uh they might have um the one disappointment was

[00:12:18] when the episode started and we saw the ship I thought that might mean that rod

[00:12:22] Rodriguez is back I'm worried now I guess maybe we won't see him again so I'll just

[00:12:27] appreciate the time with him that we had and the time that especially he and Blackthorn had

[00:12:31] together okay well I'll hop back in later um with my thoughts about the major characters and events

[00:12:39] awesome thanks Alicia yeah we scheduling wise and everything I'm glad we were able to get your

[00:12:44] voice in so yeah we we have to wait until Blackthorn's first love has passed away

[00:12:51] before his love can be replaced by Rod Regas he's good yeah and then he's remember Fooji's in the

[00:12:58] wings as well he also has a wife have we forgotten about that like in the way yes we have we basically

[00:13:03] for he certainly has he's certainly forgotten about it well a lot of I was gonna say fun

[00:13:10] stuff this episode but it's not it's not fun stuff it's amazing stuff it's it's

[00:13:16] it's beautifully horrific but we gotta get into it we gotta get into it David shall we talk about

[00:13:26] the episode sure I'm I'm formally proposing weird pauses I'm formally proposing to you

[00:13:36] to be my second as we talk about this episode that's why I'm taking such pauses between my

[00:13:42] speech I gotta maybe go to somewhere uh I don't know if I'm gonna you know I'm gonna I'm gonna

[00:13:48] ghost you I'm gonna do what the kids these days do and ghost you in Kiama's defense he was probably

[00:13:54] in the meeting where he was getting the permits for her so she wouldn't have to die at all that's

[00:13:58] right he was in the he was he was going from one office to the next getting all the record

[00:14:03] it was at stamps and then of course they forgot one stamp so he had to go back to the beginning

[00:14:07] and start all over again darn bureaucracy yeah all right she loves his bureaucracy absolutely he

[00:14:15] does it's the only thing he knows how to do let's talk about the cold open quick let's talk about

[00:14:21] marcos conversion so we saw father alvito was there from the start yeah yep a young alvito

[00:14:29] does he have a crush on her what do you think um that's a good question I think he genuinely

[00:14:38] does have feelings for her how those get translated through his priestly vows I'm not quite sure

[00:14:48] but there is a great fondness and affection no doubt no doubt from the beginning from the

[00:14:54] very beginning he is he's relating to her in a in a very different way in a very gentle and

[00:15:02] intimate way yeah and it was really surprising the level of intimacy that he went into that with

[00:15:09] as if he did you know the way the dialogue was going it didn't sound like they

[00:15:14] knew each other before because the guard outside was explaining to him who she was

[00:15:18] and what's been going on right right right and so then the fact that he is so intimate and speaking

[00:15:26] Portuguese English but perjenglish I don't know what do we call it

[00:15:31] in English um that uh and so I was kind of confused by by the level of intimacy that

[00:15:38] he was showing her right from the beginning yeah I mean I think he was at first kind of talking

[00:15:43] to himself almost and then realizing okay I'm new to the Japan says John Blackburn would say

[00:15:49] and I need to go speak Japanese like I learned if I want to convert this woman

[00:15:54] and well I do think he was there on business I do think he I think he's a true believer

[00:16:01] I think he believes welcoming Jesus into your heart is going to save you from this

[00:16:07] depression from the suicidal nature and from uh you know I think it's it can be a

[00:16:13] very dangerous way of thinking but I do think he believes it yeah no absolutely and she is in

[00:16:21] a position right now where she's looking around at her life as a married woman in Japan

[00:16:31] whose father you know did this stuff she's a disgrace samurai right yeah basically and

[00:16:37] and here is this other way out of all of that of all of that mess and all of that loss

[00:16:44] and sadness there is a kind of salvation waiting for her and that's appealing in some way

[00:16:51] and he's there at the right time in the right place right right so let's talk about that the

[00:16:56] right time the right place I put this in the notes religion finding you at your lowest

[00:17:03] is it wholesome is it gross or is it somewhere in between or does it depend right

[00:17:12] because if it if it lifts you up and gives you agency and and allows you some a sense of grace

[00:17:23] that's when you need it the most right and in whether that shows up in the form of a friend

[00:17:29] or an organization I suppose it then depends on what the motivations of that organization are

[00:17:37] is it is it no strings attached whereas the the portuguese purse strings are very much attached

[00:17:43] right but but then you ask like how does it factor in that alvido's intentions are pretty

[00:17:50] pure here I think as an individual as an individual and he believes that you know God is is doing

[00:17:57] the thing and and I think many people who and I don't want to get into debate on religious right now

[00:18:02] but many people who open up the topic okay but but let's say somebody is pretty socially conscious

[00:18:09] but still sure holds their catholic faith faith I think many people say well I disagree with

[00:18:15] some of the actions of the bureaucracy of it of the organization but I believe in the tenets

[00:18:22] of it therefore I think the ends justify the means in this case and I think that that's probably where

[00:18:29] alvido is and I think that's where a lot of people today who are still religious

[00:18:34] sure end up and we have the contrast with del aqua who is very clear about the political

[00:18:43] and financial implications yeah all of those kinds of things and black thorn calls it out as well

[00:18:50] he's like oh you know I forget what the exact line was but they're on the deck of the ship

[00:18:54] right and he challenges marico about the the black ship right and about the financial interest that

[00:19:00] the church is playing cover for for the crown in this case so yeah I think it's interesting because

[00:19:08] if if you took alvido out of catholicism of that time period and put him in say as a

[00:19:17] licensed clinical therapist would he just be your friendly neighborhood therapist that's

[00:19:21] trying to help you work through some things or would he have been a Protestant priest I think

[00:19:25] alvido as an as a human being is interested in caring for people right and he's just happens

[00:19:33] to be a catholic in on this under the system so instead today instead of a crucifix he gives

[00:19:38] you a stress ball he gives you a fidget spinner exactly or a prescription if he's a if he's a

[00:19:43] psychiatrist or if he's a licensed clinical therapist did you think there were rosary beads at

[00:19:48] first because I did oh really oh yeah no I figured what that's what it was and I figured I mean from

[00:19:54] the language of television I was I assumed that it was the cross okay I thought uh you know having

[00:20:01] been raised catholic I thought they were rosary beads because that's right because that's like

[00:20:04] a really explicitly catholic thing compared to just general christian so yeah it's uh it's

[00:20:11] interesting anyway I thought it was a great cold open it was a great way to sort of bring the whole

[00:20:16] episode to marico all right so yeah I mean I think it's a really interesting conversation to have

[00:20:22] on religion maybe we'll maybe we'll talk about sort of that aspect of it on the season wrap

[00:20:27] because that's a deeper topic we need to spend time on sure yeah agreed so lady ocheba yes she's

[00:20:35] the first character I want to tackle why don't we let Alicia set our tone for this one

[00:20:41] ocheba's always kind of come across as the character who was really pulling all the strings but

[00:20:46] this episode was where we we kind of saw a little more vulnerability from her this you know this

[00:20:52] idea of her exercising her power from behind the man we see its limitations in you know her

[00:20:59] frustration that she can't just fix things you know she has she has to dance around with words

[00:21:06] which fortunately she's quite good at but when we saw her expression when marico walked in

[00:21:13] this was clearly she was glad and excited and saddened to see her all the same time and then

[00:21:20] watching her face fell when marico congratulated her on her engagement well that's in case

[00:21:26] we didn't already know how she feels about that we know this is something she's only doing because

[00:21:32] she sees no other way for herself to exercise power it was also interesting just you know the

[00:21:41] hidden communications between the japanese characters that they don't make completely

[00:21:47] obvious on screen like we we saw my voice sayiki again yeah thank you abby for the

[00:21:52] pronunciation guide and we saw her ocheba when he was proposing you know he was kind of being

[00:21:59] dismissive of her point and she ends up slowly fanning her fan out in his direction in a very

[00:22:08] pointed way so i was looking up the japanese fan language for that and the closest i could find

[00:22:14] is when you do that and it's facing downwards it's basically like a rejection you know like

[00:22:19] i'm not picking up what you're putting down so i like to think that that was just basically

[00:22:24] her fan language for fuck you um sake it was less fun this episode uh we also got in this

[00:22:32] scene ocheba makes another fate reference and she says that marico committing seppuku is her

[00:22:39] vengeance on fate so now we have marico in alignment with the other characters who are just

[00:22:45] grabbing fate and wrestling it to them taking a bite out of it uh fighting back against destiny

[00:22:52] and yeah i just love the entire uh the entire that goodbye the very public goodbye that she

[00:23:00] got to have with that friend from her youth um and how they had the thinnest pretense by

[00:23:07] having the anjin there and marico says yeah anjin thanks the air but blackthorne hasn't

[00:23:14] even spoken and nobody everyone's just standing there witnessing this entire conversation just

[00:23:19] understanding that these are the rules of the game these this is the only way for these two women to

[00:23:24] be able to talk like this yeah and there was a great contrast so uh there was ishido says

[00:23:33] the air has no interest in the barbarian and then later they're like the air wants an audience

[00:23:38] with the barbarian so you already get a clue that it's a ruse right exactly yeah and i think she brings

[00:23:44] up a really good point uh where we were last episode wondering what um what is uh ocheba's

[00:23:55] motivations in wanting to marry ishido and i think it's clear now that it's a power move for her

[00:24:04] to maintain position unlimited power she's got limited power though right because she's uh she's

[00:24:12] she's the the concert wife whatever behind the throne and she's now she's at a point where

[00:24:19] she was going to start to lose power and the only way to maintain a power position was to marry ishido

[00:24:25] who adores her right so okay he's a sick like i gotta i gotta keep him i gotta keep him

[00:24:30] simped right i gotta keep him in line and the only way to do that is is to allow him to think that i

[00:24:36] i love him as well um and i and yeah there's a couple of things that there was sake and stuff that

[00:24:42] are in my favorite moments of the episode so all right i'm gonna i'm gonna save those for there

[00:24:48] but yeah i think it's really interesting to to watch lady ocheba as she's trying to maneuver

[00:24:55] you know when we talked about what was matiko's mission well part of her mission

[00:24:59] in this was definitely to destabilize lady ocheba and i think soften the edges a little bit right like

[00:25:07] there was there is a level of whether it's from toranaga or from marco but toranaga did explicitly

[00:25:13] ask about lady ocheba and their relationship but whether it's from either one of them

[00:25:19] the mission is make her a little bit more willing to listen to a peace offering to a proposal

[00:25:27] because i think if toranaga could make this a bloodless transition he absolutely will he

[00:25:33] absolutely and it might happen and that would be a really interesting way to end the series i mean

[00:25:38] we have this episode titled crimson sky the name of his ultimate battle plan in which comparatively

[00:25:45] very few people die and the violence is very intimate and contained right in in a courtyard

[00:25:52] well actually and when the when the shinobi show yeah i suppose some more people die that's

[00:25:56] that's there's that too uh the i think with the crimson sky idea though right it's it's do i go in

[00:26:04] with a minute arms and sort of force our way there's no way that we're getting into that castle

[00:26:10] you know without a trojan horse strategy well the whole thing with blackthorn is he wants

[00:26:14] to blow the sides out of the castle with cannons right sure it's the whole idea but

[00:26:19] does he have big enough cannons and enough cannons to to do that that's a big castle yeah

[00:26:24] right and we're only seeing parts of it yeah the but this idea that she can that he can

[00:26:30] socially destabilize the uh workings of the castle such that ishido is shamed into losing control

[00:26:41] or gosh a whole bunch of shinobi broken that sucks a whole bunch of lords and ladies died right oh my

[00:26:49] right gosh what are we gonna do all these bandits in the in the in the forests in all these shinobi

[00:26:55] running around our walls but all of that serves to destabilize ashido not just destabilize

[00:27:00] but paint him as the villain right like yes torin aga now comes in as the liberator

[00:27:06] liberator exactly and he has caused he has caused his bella right to come in and go hey man like

[00:27:13] right you know you you let a bunch of shinobi in what's that's that's not good and you let in the

[00:27:18] life of the high ranking member of my my uh thief my my my clan my clan uh die under your watch

[00:27:28] under your protection yeah and and i don't think you know at some point you know going back

[00:27:34] to lady ocheba she as a woman in this society only has so much power and it has so many strings that

[00:27:41] she can pull and she's not able to command the armies and you know she's not out there on the front

[00:27:47] leading the troops she's always working in the shadows but that's only going to go so far

[00:27:52] in this situation i think she is as smart as marico maybe a little bit less i think she's less

[00:27:59] smart yeah but but marico a little bit it's really interesting marico is a much more complex

[00:28:05] character it almost feels like right she's got this she's got these various sides but lady ocheba i

[00:28:10] think there's more to her than meets the eye too and well later i i do think she's on a similar

[00:28:16] level to marico i think it's like if i'm somebody who watches professional chess all the time i

[00:28:25] could probably tell you what they're doing as they're doing it but i might not be able to think of it on

[00:28:29] the fly and so maybe marico is the professional chess player and ocheba is the one watching from

[00:28:36] the sidelines interesting yeah interesting yeah well in marico's uh a gifted linguist uh a

[00:28:45] strong fighter uh kind of a student of human psychology and motivation where lady ocheba

[00:28:53] is just maneuvering power maneuvering right she's like angling and moving people where marico is

[00:29:00] in her poetry so you know we see that time and time again where she gets all your poetry was always so

[00:29:05] good oh you were you know things came so easy to you we watched her you know fight training as

[00:29:11] she's young and i have to say going back to what the the writer's room and the show runners were

[00:29:16] able to do in terms of building characters building ocheba she only came in at five and we already

[00:29:22] know so much about her you know marico we've had but they've built it the way that they're building

[00:29:26] the backstories of these characters is so interesting and so detailed that we get this richness

[00:29:33] about their motivations we get uh the actions that are happening now in the penultimate

[00:29:42] episode that make total sense for where their characters even though we could have never

[00:29:46] predicted them in this spot they're acting like their characters yeah and we understand

[00:29:50] the motivations that's really incredible writing it is it is i really like when lady ocheba is giving

[00:29:58] advice to ishido and he's like well what advice do you have for me what should i do and she's kind

[00:30:04] of like you wanted the job do the job right she is she goes she she trapped you that's what that's

[00:30:09] what she basically tells ishido is like there is no answer to this she's trapped you right i guess

[00:30:16] maybe for the for the because i know some people are like wait what was going on the the fact that

[00:30:23] and let's advance this conversation about marico because we have already sort of been

[00:30:28] i was wondering what were the orders that torin aga gave to her and in my mind it was just a

[00:30:35] really simple instruction show up and get my ladies my wife and and uh concert or whatever

[00:30:43] and bring them out period that's all that's all he needed to tell her to do i agree and she went in

[00:30:50] and she's just like i have my lord gave me an instruction do this and if i don't do this then

[00:30:58] i'm dishonored and therefore i need to remove myself right and and no matter what yeah and

[00:31:04] as lady ocheba says to ishido no matter what you do she's got you yeah you're you're

[00:31:10] checkmated you're either you've either lost credibility among the standing of all the lords or

[00:31:16] you let her go and you lose all strategic advantage by having hostages right right she she won in that

[00:31:24] moment in a bloodless strike which is insane right completely unexpected this this was such a great

[00:31:31] twist is just well i was just sent to fetch and also what a perfect situation yeah to cause ishido

[00:31:41] to become the villain it's not just marico who's who's well liked and people love her and she's great

[00:31:47] at poetry and she's publicly calling this out but it's also the other lords infant son

[00:31:55] infant son you're gonna stop a baby from leaving right boy oh boy it's uh it's not a good look

[00:32:02] it's not a good look ishido not a good look at all and in this whole idea of well nobody's

[00:32:09] prisoner but everybody's prisoner right that's it's a really unstable position

[00:32:14] but he can't come out and say you're prisoner because then that's a that's an active a kind of

[00:32:18] active war right so i guess you know going with the shinobi plan was kind of an interesting

[00:32:28] solution to the problem where it was one step removed oh i don't know some oh yabashige let

[00:32:36] him in i don't know anything about that you know like they were bandits in the forest they got

[00:32:41] into the castle oops my bad yeah but nobody's gonna believe that nobody's gonna believe that

[00:32:46] everybody's gonna know see that's the thing plausible deniability ishido tries to be as

[00:32:51] Trixie as torinaga but he's not smart enough and not subtle enough to do it no because

[00:32:57] not by or in aga would never hire these fucking amateurs to do this you know you tell people

[00:33:04] to get somebody alive all right here's the pipe bomb are we kidding are we kidding

[00:33:11] that was a shocking decision i was really actually kind of shocked it that it went to

[00:33:15] that kind of level and she made sure she died there we'll talk about it later i don't want

[00:33:20] to i don't want to jump ahead with that let's talk more about ishido but he okay he obviously

[00:33:26] doesn't understand what's going on half the time he's just kind of no guy he's so when

[00:33:32] she challenges him in the in the formal audience and he's if you the actor does a really good

[00:33:38] job he's he's actually upset and offended the fact that she's talking back to him that way

[00:33:44] he is he's blind to what she's doing complete he's completely blind to the plan yep and anise wise

[00:33:53] clarity in tone when she's just you know i don't think we've heard mariko raise her

[00:33:59] voice this entire series she saved it all for here i am the daughter of a catchy jinsai my

[00:34:06] family have been samurai for a thousand years oh my god it was i got chills i got chills it was so good

[00:34:14] yeah it was incredible and in front of everybody and uh and challenging his authority and so

[00:34:22] he either overreacts or underreacts there's no safe the the pathway out of that is so difficult

[00:34:28] yep and he's not like you were saying he's not clever enough to to go against tototo with

[00:34:34] torinaga nope or mariko even he can't he couldn't go one-on-one with mariko he just can't do it

[00:34:40] it's it's he's he isn't such an impossible situation i think torinaga might have been able to figure

[00:34:49] out a way out of it but he's not smart enough to do it and he miscalculates it every single step

[00:34:54] right he's like right i mean he would have just let her go through with the seppuku if

[00:35:00] ochiba hadn't convinced him that she really would do it because he didn't believe it he was like she's

[00:35:05] not gonna go through with that it's like she absolutely will don't don't underestimate her

[00:35:12] he missteps in every single way uh it's her it's her revenge against fate right that's what

[00:35:17] it was yeah that's what it was so good so good and uh yeah the the last misstep is the shinobi

[00:35:25] the the point is been continually raised which is he is not somebody who was born into this life

[00:35:33] and now i don't want to make a uh you know a moral judgment in the sense of oh the nobles are better

[00:35:39] than somebody else but if you're born into that scenario in that situation it's like being fluent

[00:35:48] in a language yeah he didn't learn to play the game with the runes no he learned to climb the ladder

[00:35:53] but once he got up there it's a different game right it's not just about uh so he was focused and he

[00:36:00] did a good job of climbing the ladder but now that he's up there he's he's uh he doesn't have the tools

[00:36:07] necessary to play the game of thrones from that um the what am i thinking of the court right

[00:36:13] of all the nobles and ladies all the power centers everybody's swirling who's in allegiance

[00:36:17] with who that's very different than just fighting your way to to being king oh and you just made

[00:36:22] me realize something when she goes i am not a peasant for you to step on the subtext is

[00:36:29] i'm not a peasant like you like you yeah good point oh it's oh i missed that too yeah oh that's

[00:36:36] so good and then she of course flips around his he goes where are your manners and then later

[00:36:41] she's like when you get the manners to let me finish my sentence mic drop mic drop

[00:36:49] absolutely so i know we're not supposed to always compare this with game of thrones house

[00:36:55] or the dragon etc etc but i'm really glad that these two shows are kind of back to back in in this way

[00:37:02] because here we have uh lady ochiba and and and matiko and then now we're gonna have uh remind

[00:37:08] me their names because it's um my head's you got renieris or sorry reniera oh my god oh my god

[00:37:13] we're gonna get so many don't don't add him don't add him and uh right renegagon and you know all the

[00:37:20] all the other reyness anyway we have these two sister non-sisters who are um who are in opposition

[00:37:28] and that's what we have a little bit in this show so i'm really excited to do some comps between

[00:37:33] the the two yeah you got the dragon lady and the foot queen right that's that's their names

[00:37:38] i'm just joking i'm just joking about laris and his stupid right icky icky icky but it's

[00:37:44] it's it's a really uh it's like a uh it's an embarrassment of riches in terms of television

[00:37:50] to have these two shows so close and i'm glad that they're not right on top of each other but

[00:37:54] we've got a little breather before before we get house of the dragon so and i've been sounding

[00:37:58] the alarm that we're doing a uh rewatch of season one ahead of it i've been putting that in our

[00:38:04] show notes as we uh as we go into our other podcast this week since i like i said i've been

[00:38:09] recording a lot this week and i'm i'm trying to tell everybody what we're doing you're on the

[00:38:13] you're up your mic you're on the mic you're back uh i need to yeah i need to start getting the

[00:38:18] season one shoehorned into my life schedule yeah because it's gonna be a big deal it's all

[00:38:24] right who do you want to talk about next i want to talk about taking a break okay let's do that

[00:38:35] hey listeners if you've been listening to our show chances are you've heard the wonderful

[00:38:43] contributions of our favorite Tolkien scholar Marilyn R. Pukila Marilyn just launched her own

[00:38:48] podcast on our network called rings and rituals join me and dr. sarah brown on our journey through

[00:38:54] the lord of the rings the rings of power through the lens of ritual episodes drop every other

[00:38:59] wednesday on the rings and rituals feed linked in the show notes see you there

[00:39:11] and we're back so let's talk about the other weakling uh regents because uh we've got we've

[00:39:19] got one day of them to go around kiyama and ono we are we are powerless ono says right right wow they

[00:39:30] are and and yeah there is hostages anybody else yeah and they know that and it's really interesting

[00:39:37] they're just totally defeated mm-hmm they are they are not willing to do anything i mean maybe

[00:39:43] maybe you could say in the background kiyama might have fought for uh you know marco to get permits

[00:39:49] but i don't see it i don't see it i mean he can't even he can't even tell her that he's not coming to

[00:39:55] her seppuku and with ono we've never even really he's never even been a factor in things other than

[00:40:05] just being one of the five regions right um and uh i forget who's the other lord that

[00:40:12] was killed by the bandits wink wink oh he's he doesn't matter anymore yeah sugi ama yeah sugi

[00:40:19] ama sugi ama uh and so it was surprising to see kiyama take on such a prominent role especially

[00:40:26] when he talks to black thorn yeah yeah he's very proper portuguese he speaks portuguese now

[00:40:33] that's cool uh just enough to be mocked by black thorn of course right but it's kind

[00:40:38] of helpful you know to make some side deals you know to take a little bit of a cream off the top

[00:40:42] of the black ship you know because what does he say i don't care about the church stuff i care about

[00:40:47] trade yeah it's funny and and i think we're even told that in an early episode right is that

[00:40:52] he converted to christianity solely to make money like he's not really oh i forgot about

[00:40:58] that ono is the one who converted for religious reasons for yeah for soul reasons yeah right

[00:41:05] because of the leprosy right right again looking for some sort of salvation uh some sort of

[00:41:14] way to to deal with the problems of life that the problems that life presents yeah and then

[00:41:20] kiyama and marco this whole idea of the intersection between christian and japan

[00:41:26] oh that was so good wasn't it lord kiyama and you could tell he's like me me don't

[00:41:32] don't win me i don't want any part of this she goes i formally ask you when she said formally i was

[00:41:40] like oh yeah i formally ask you to be my second as you are another christian yeah oh boy that is such

[00:41:47] a good a good play there and i'm curious it's interesting because it's it's a form of assisted

[00:41:56] suicide uh because it's not murder you're doing it with consent uh and but you she can't take her own

[00:42:04] life but what about his soul you know do we need to get a sin eater in over here do we need to get

[00:42:10] old old what's his name old munch from fargo over here well well we know blackthorn thinks it's a

[00:42:16] sin because he's like i'll go to hell for you right grumble grumble yeah i think it was

[00:42:25] interesting i thought it was a really great great twist and and that he ghosted her and he can't he

[00:42:32] can't show up because then that would be doing her some kind of favor and that would be destabilizing

[00:42:38] for a she-do so i get why he didn't show up and it obviously then it gave us a very dramatic

[00:42:45] scene with blackthorn stepping in well i wonder do you think he actually had concerns about his

[00:42:50] mortal soul or do you think he just thinks it's all horseshit no i think he's i think is i think he

[00:42:55] thinks it's all horseshit but he he i don't think he went because that he would have it would have been

[00:43:03] seen as uh him committing a mortal helping yeah yeah well and it would it would have been

[00:43:08] helping right and it would have been helping it would have because if she did it and it was all

[00:43:15] it all went through then uh ishido's gonna look bad right and that's why he comes in at the end

[00:43:21] and stops it that did he how did he know when to come in at the right spot because this is tv and we

[00:43:28] needed a dramatic moment let's just let's just overlook all right all right don't don't over

[00:43:34] complicate it yeah yeah it's it's tv all right yaba shige our favorite my man our favorite

[00:43:44] trader let's let's hear alicia's thoughts yabu shige the rat he was everywhere in the shadows

[00:43:51] whenever you turn to look this episode um he really came up quite quickly on plan a to you know say that

[00:43:59] just give the anjin to ishido and i knew it must be a ruse but i i thought it was a ruse but

[00:44:08] actually it seems like he really just is constantly squirming he's like okay well that

[00:44:13] didn't work next time uh next up i'll just offer him my services but he looked like he did not like

[00:44:20] the position he had put himself in in the end uh it was interesting i have trouble parsing how he

[00:44:28] feels about mariko because he was very much refusing to let her translate for instance

[00:44:34] and maybe i guess that's just because he didn't want black thorn to know that he was being

[00:44:38] offered up um by the way shouldn't black thorns japanese be a little bit better by now i know in

[00:44:44] the books it is but perhaps this is more realistic that he just really is barely learning anything

[00:44:50] i yeah had to wonder this entire episode how much did he really understand black thorn

[00:44:59] i think not much and i think that's exactly what yabu shige wanted right and and black thorns

[00:45:06] gonna be without his translator now so yeah that's he's gonna have to hold his own it's interesting

[00:45:12] because the language thing when he goes before lady ocheba he says that little phrase and she's like

[00:45:20] ah a well-prepared phrase you know uh that's a good job i'm gonna i'm gonna take a little

[00:45:26] recording of you i'm gonna put it up on the fridge and yeah but i'd be curious to know

[00:45:33] from some of our listeners who live in japan who are not japanese how hard it was to learn japanese

[00:45:41] i don't look at it davie mac davie mac or even um abby uh who could say what the experience was like

[00:45:52] because i and i think abby probably well it'd be interesting because she's uh she speaks

[00:45:58] hungarian hungarian is a very complex language and so i'd be curious to know like what's a harder

[00:46:04] language to learn on garyan japanese well i wonder if it's also based on the language that you

[00:46:09] already know because black thorn sure he learned portuguese and latin in the book at least and he

[00:46:15] knows dutch but all of those are a little related at least japanese is fully removed from that

[00:46:23] language right it's true and i think you don't have any text yeah and that's something that he even

[00:46:28] says in the book to himself he's like i don't i can't relate any of these sounds to the ones

[00:46:33] that i already know and it's really hard for that so maybe that's part of it right and you don't

[00:46:38] have letters or an alphabet to sound out in that same way right like you know to combine

[00:46:43] you have you have you have these figures that are are uh syllables instead of letters

[00:46:50] and that's confusing sometimes you need to use a different looking letter i i tried to learn some

[00:46:56] japanese when i was getting into anime don't don't judge me and uh uh it's hard it's just really hard

[00:47:03] like the the written language especially is like there's two versions of the writing and you

[00:47:09] have to use them in different contexts and actually there's really three versions anyway

[00:47:13] it's a lot it's a lot and and i don't blame black thorn for being a little confused right

[00:47:20] yeah and unless he's actually studying and they didn't show us uh him studying and i got no

[00:47:28] monthous right and i exactly know no language learning montan rocky music with him with a scroll

[00:47:36] that would have been awesome because i think in the books it's certainly in the 80s mini series

[00:47:40] the whole village is tasked with teaching him the language and they just removed that completely

[00:47:46] yeah well in the book it's kind of weird because they're like oh well this village will die if you

[00:47:50] don't learn japanese but then they kind of never follow up on any of it it's really weird

[00:47:54] but i yeah i don't know i don't know i i think it's fine to do it the way it's in the tv show

[00:47:58] i think it's a little bit more realistic in the 2024 series agreed uh so yabashige

[00:48:06] the he's he's really boxed himself in he thought he had he thought he was walking in

[00:48:13] with a big shiny cool thing and ashito is just like i don't want your barbarian i don't want

[00:48:18] your cannon yeah you know go away silly man that looks really dirty yeah exactly you're

[00:48:24] you're you're trained a little parrot there you're a little pet and i thought it was really funny

[00:48:31] that the whole time that yabashige and blackthorne were talking that yabashige is like oh no we're

[00:48:39] gonna go turn ourselves over and we're gonna ally with him again and then i don't think blackthorne

[00:48:46] no understood that he didn't understand that he was the meat yeah that's right

[00:48:54] nor that they were gonna turn turn traitor right like you know because he thinks he's

[00:48:58] gonna sail against the black ship ashito's not gonna let him sail against the black ship he doesn't

[00:49:02] know that he's gonna be um you know the way that it's gonna go down yeah blackthorne's a little naive

[00:49:09] here but i think yeah he's kind of like i think where he's at is i can't go back home i can't

[00:49:16] really fit in here i gotta figure it out so i'm just gonna go with the flow now i mean he's so

[00:49:21] much quieter this episode than he has been in previous episodes right he's learned to keep his

[00:49:25] mouth shut part of that is marco asks him to right is just like mm-hmm well yabashige first

[00:49:32] tells him to be quiet and then marco says don't meddle will you do can you do that for me yeah

[00:49:38] yeah yeah that was a great line yeah that was really like i would pause before acting after

[00:49:45] that and i really liked it they kind of brought this up on the official podcast which i finally

[00:49:48] listened to this week a little bit and they brought this up that they wanted to make sure that this

[00:49:53] wasn't blackthorne the white guy busting in and saving marco and sweeping her off her feet and

[00:50:00] fixing everything this was marco this was marco's story where she was saving a lot of people

[00:50:09] and sacrificing herself for a cause she believed to be better to be bigger yeah and she's like

[00:50:15] don't help me don't help me right because that's not like you don't have the right it's not help

[00:50:22] yeah it's not actually help right you know you're not that's not actually what you're offering is

[00:50:27] not actually helpful in this situation right just like kind of buntaro in a way yeah like

[00:50:34] nice tea ceremony but i don't love you right even though i think i was surprised because i think

[00:50:39] she has i didn't think she had feelings for blackthorn anymore but i you know i know alicia

[00:50:45] a couple episodes ago she's like nah it's still there no yeah it was sure enough it was

[00:50:50] my husband's back i shouldn't be cheating on him i'm not an adulterer so i'm just gonna

[00:50:55] you know i'm just gonna pretend that never happened but i thought she was done with him

[00:50:59] last episode like you broke you're not hot to mojo anymore you know this is all no no i don't

[00:51:04] think i don't think her attraction was to do with his hotemoto status i thought no no no

[00:51:10] his hot emoto yeah it's hot emoto all right all right but no i think she was charmed by

[00:51:17] his personality and yeah i mean in the book she's like way more like oh hello john blackthorn

[00:51:25] but i'm i'm glad that they balanced that out a lot more in the show and hugely also even if they

[00:51:32] had never been together before this night i think they trombonded a little bit wouldn't you say

[00:51:39] agreed yes absolutely agreed and and i think that's where when when the when it starts when

[00:51:45] the situation starts to pressurize that's when they do find that they still have affection for each

[00:51:53] other and i thought that that was interesting even though we're supposed to be talking about yabashige

[00:51:57] segment right now i know we're gonna just talk about mariko this whole we're just gonna talk

[00:52:01] about whatever yeah exactly it's mariko's episode let's go back to yabashige really quick what's

[00:52:07] what is the deal like he kept he turned this way and it wasn't working out he turned that way

[00:52:12] it wasn't working out he turns this way and then a bunch of shinobi come rolling in and he's like damn

[00:52:16] yeah you know uh what is he what does he really want is he just trying to stay alive oh yeah he's

[00:52:23] just he's just scraping the bottom of the barrel for plans at this point because he knows if he

[00:52:27] doesn't like right now he's just in his should his power he doesn't think that they're actually

[00:52:30] gonna be allowed to leave and in fact right at that point at the point he got the orders

[00:52:35] this was before mariko got the permits right yeah it must have been yeah i'm trying to remember

[00:52:41] now the scene came before at least okay yeah yeah and that would make sense because this show is not

[00:52:46] doing a lot of daylight out so yeah yeah yeah yeah the it was daylight out and she was committing

[00:52:52] seppuku at sunset so right i think he's basically like well we're not going to be allowed to

[00:52:58] leave so i better make nice with my new captor and so and he's always wanted to be with ishido

[00:53:05] he right he's constantly trying to go that direction i don't i don't think that's true i mean in the in

[00:53:10] the book it's explicit that he's like i got these two sides i don't know who's gonna win

[00:53:16] right now the balance is going to be on the winning side in his shido's favor but i think it could

[00:53:19] go to or naga so right now i'm gonna play both sides interesting so he's just trying to come

[00:53:25] out on the winning side he's just trying to balance right into the last moment and then pick

[00:53:29] the winning right it's uh there's a quote and it's always something in philadelphia silly one

[00:53:33] he's like i play both sides that way i always come out on top and that's that's yabashige right there

[00:53:38] right i think that's it so that's pretty straightforward motivation yeah he's pretty

[00:53:42] simple in that regard yeah but he he switched sides twice in one episode which i think is really

[00:53:47] funny like he's he's pledging to ishido yeah and then later he's like so what's toward

[00:53:54] naga's plan because we got to do it and then later he's back to ishido which when the when

[00:54:01] the uh assassins started coming in i was at first i was like oh this is crimson's guy this is toran

[00:54:06] aga's yeah me too me too i'm like okay good we're getting the battle soon oh no oh no in slow

[00:54:13] motion because i forgot that the little scene of him being bribed by ishido's guys was so short

[00:54:19] and i just kind of it got washed with all the other things that were going on and a

[00:54:23] really great marikos yeah and a really great moment where he reaches back to get the paper

[00:54:29] for the message and the guy leans in and he starts whispering to him right because he's like

[00:54:37] i'm gonna give you a message that is not going to be in writing there will be right right exactly

[00:54:42] this is not written down yeah there's no email right don't email about these things hillary clinton

[00:54:47] will not be subpoenaed about this no but uh yeah i mean this is very under the radar and that's

[00:54:55] yeah and and and i also love yaba shige's

[00:55:00] after after he says he just says one thing you have to do for him it's like i think yaba shige

[00:55:07] even in that moment knows that like this probably is not going to end well for him anyway like i

[00:55:11] guarantee you ishido's order what orders are kill yaba shige in the process to just get him out of

[00:55:16] here i yeah that's interesting that he's he's still alive after all of this and uh and

[00:55:23] yeah would he have come out if ishido had been successful in in a cleaner way right not in this

[00:55:29] messy way that we got now like capturing what would have happened to yeah yeah exactly what would

[00:55:33] have happened to uh to yaba shige in this oh i think he's dead what would have been well because

[00:55:39] you have somebody who's gonna turn on a dime like that how would how would you ever it's like

[00:55:44] uh people who start dating someone who has a partner so that like they're dating the cheater

[00:55:51] and they expect to have a really faithful relationship right yeah it's like no wait

[00:55:56] you don't think they're gonna do the same thing with you again yeah uh yeah you can't you can't

[00:56:02] trust a two-timer you just can't do it a double agent yeah and i do love that he gets trapped

[00:56:09] in his own consequences later consequence consequence consequence you do it you're

[00:56:14] you're on tiktok now huh uh no no that was from before tiktok i i was on tiktok for a little while

[00:56:20] and that was one that was uh look i found the consequence consequence consequence yeah there's

[00:56:24] still a lot of good tiktoks about that yep all right so blackthorn john blackthorn actually

[00:56:33] we have another uh voicemail from alisha to play oh excellent

[00:56:38] John not a pirate blackthorn sure was bringing his a-level romance this episode

[00:56:43] even though i laughed when he went storming off from the meeting with ochiba like a clumsy bear and

[00:56:49] he kind of looks constipated when he tries to bow formally but yeah by volunteering to kill mariko

[00:56:56] he showed that he finally understood her and that after you know that romantic line of would

[00:57:02] you consider living for me but she walks away from that thinking well you i love you but you don't

[00:57:08] understand me and then he showed her that he did understand her which is why you know he

[00:57:15] kind of earned that last night together and i'm very glad for both of them that they had that

[00:57:20] before she went out i'm glad he didn't have to go through with uh being her second though

[00:57:26] because as we've established previously he doesn't seem to be the greatest swordsman

[00:57:31] and also i don't why didn't mariko put up her hair like i just kept thinking you don't want this

[00:57:36] extra thing to cut through um but yeah blackthorn did get the chance to protect the honor of women

[00:57:43] on a grander scale when he managed to be in the right place at the right time when the shinobi

[00:57:49] showed up in the women's quarter so yeah good for him but i have a feeling that he is going

[00:57:55] to be a deeply unhappy man next week i'm so curious where this is all going to end for him

[00:58:04] yeah it was an interesting blackthorn episode in that he like you were saying he's very quiet

[00:58:13] he's his much more his manners are are much better he's not disgracing himself he's not

[00:58:20] lashing out or acting out and in fact he does something he offers something that's actually

[00:58:27] very genuine which is to second her that is a really genuine offer he knowing that that that's the last

[00:58:37] memory he would have of her that that kind of carrying that kind of trauma and darkness

[00:58:42] around with you yeah but he's willing to do it so that she doesn't die in disgrace

[00:58:49] that's that's it's really something and i don't and i don't think marico's actually had a lot of

[00:58:56] people offering that for her right like doing something really nice for her just for her like hey

[00:59:03] this is for you not for me right something completely unselfish right selfless yeah selfless

[00:59:08] is the word that i'm trying to find out that's the word but you and me both yeah it's you know

[00:59:14] i never thought that when we started this podcast i described cutting someone's head off as a selfless

[00:59:19] act but here we are here we are two years in this is what this kind of tv does to you i know

[00:59:26] i know yeah it's it's tough and and blackthorn this almost feels like a good substitute for

[00:59:35] the book where he's gonna commit seppuku himself because this is him really saying all

[00:59:42] right this might not be my culture but i get it and i get what she's doing here and not just that

[00:59:49] i think part of it is he understands the fear of going to hell because he was raised in that

[00:59:56] even if he doesn't believe it i don't think he's a real believer but

[01:00:00] and he he doesn't want marico to think she's going to hell on the way out

[01:00:06] and right even if right even if none of it's real he doesn't want her to feel like she has

[01:00:13] failed god that she's felt in that last moment exactly yeah yeah and that's where it is it's a

[01:00:19] selfless act on his part right he's going to carry the weight of of that of killing a trauma

[01:00:25] exactly in a not great way he's not a great swordsman so you know that's it's a it's

[01:00:34] high stakes we're gonna have nine hacks just like uh oh yeah i don't want to go here yeah baby torinaga

[01:00:41] but i think you're i think it's a really good point that you make which is she even in that

[01:00:49] moment regardless of what uh you or i or any of us believe about the afterlife and about our

[01:00:54] souls and that kind of stuff the fact that in that moment he doesn't want her to die with that

[01:01:00] fear but he wants her to be able to pass with peace of mind you know that she was seconded

[01:01:07] that i that's a really good point that's a that's a really interesting angle i thought about it and

[01:01:12] then that's where i was saying it's it's he's doing something for her not for himself

[01:01:18] i agree with that and i think it's interesting because we've talked about

[01:01:22] john blackthorn at least i had the little theory that you know he was kind of a user right he's

[01:01:27] i'm gonna i'm gonna this i'm gonna make my fate every moment i'm gonna use the sailors i'm gonna

[01:01:32] use my orders you know and i'm gonna push us beyond where we should have been and where i'm gonna just

[01:01:39] you know uh take every chance i get to survive while i'm in the japan's

[01:01:44] he really is a different person now in the sense of he's he's he's bowing properly he's showing

[01:01:51] proper respect to people like on the on the deck of the ship he you know when yabashige

[01:01:56] comes up and he turns around he's like oh and he bows to him nicely right you know it's

[01:02:01] he really has gone through a sea change he's he's really

[01:02:07] changed the he's not being selfish all the time about what he wants for himself yeah

[01:02:15] and i think that's this is the pinnacle of that of being um being her second

[01:02:20] i agree yeah and i who knows i mean how badly is he gonna be injured after this explosion

[01:02:24] right how and how badly is he gonna be emotionally wounded even even if he makes it out

[01:02:29] pissed i think he'd be pissed yeah but i think he's also gonna be devastated and depressed and

[01:02:35] what are his motivations from here you know i'm sure i'm sure he's gonna want revenge on ishii though

[01:02:41] yeah but after that there's an after that you know so there's this question that's going

[01:02:48] around about like what are we gonna get in episode 10 how are they gonna bring this together

[01:02:54] and are we gonna have an action heavy episode or not i think a lot of people would like a good

[01:02:59] heavy action scene you know having toranaga's forces show up and having a great big old bloody battle

[01:03:06] you know i don't know how far they're gonna go with it but the fact that we've got now

[01:03:11] buntaro is going to be pissed as well he's pissed for other reasons as well as you know

[01:03:16] why and so there's a lot of dangerous bees buzzing around ishido right now like how is that

[01:03:23] all gonna go down i have no idea what they're gonna do in 10 i have there's no way for me to predict

[01:03:27] the episode i don't think ishido makes it out alive i would hope not but and yaba shige is on

[01:03:36] thin ice too as far as the only thing saving him is people's lack of knowledge of his treachery

[01:03:41] man this would be a great death pool yeah well too bad too late yeah kind of too late to

[01:03:47] organize that that would have been really good it's a little hard to do because there's a book

[01:03:53] right like there's true real history too yeah and so like that's true i knew who was good who's gonna

[01:04:00] overall win just by like yeah right a little bit about japanese history right but i don't know how

[01:04:07] it's gonna happen and honestly i think the most action packed scene in this whole show so far

[01:04:15] has been the scene where mariko challenges ishido i don't think oh in the in the in the in the

[01:04:23] audience room i don't think you can or should limit action to battles to physical violence right

[01:04:29] right right agreed it's so much more interesting so many so many times to just watch these battles

[01:04:35] of words i know you haven't played a lot of role playing games like that you're you're more of a video

[01:04:41] game and and magic player but you've played a little bit of role playing a little bit dungeons

[01:04:46] dragons yeah so that's something that you find with a really good dungeon master or whatever role

[01:04:52] playing game that you're playing is when the the diplomacy stuff and the negotiation stuff and

[01:05:00] the uh even all the stuff that the non-sword play stuff has the same level of excitement

[01:05:08] as it is rolling the dice against a dozen skeletons or you know whatever monsters you're

[01:05:12] facing that's really good and that's a really good point is is that that scene the stakes in that

[01:05:19] scene were in some ways more exciting than it was the fight in the courtyard yeah i think

[01:05:26] the fight in the courtyard it's like okay yeah we we know the outcome right that's that's a that's a

[01:05:31] predictable outcome there's no predicting what's going to happen in that audience between matiko

[01:05:36] and inishito that's a good point that's really interesting yeah but we still got to talk about

[01:05:42] the forecourt the we do we do we'll get we'll get there we got it we got a couple more sections

[01:05:47] i i mean blackthorne and i did enjoy as far as funny things i did enjoy him learning to bow

[01:05:52] that was funny yeah right it reminded me of i know you're not a curb your enthusiasm fan but there's a

[01:05:57] whole episode where you're big on curb today i am big on curb today i don't think i quoted curb yet

[01:06:03] today i think i just did oh what were you quoting before always yeah what was the one before all

[01:06:07] when we were off the mic i don't know you quoted something but it doesn't matter but so

[01:06:12] there's a whole episode of curb where larry orders from a japanese restaurant and it leaks

[01:06:19] through the bag and he goes in he's like that was terrible what can you do for me and the guy just

[01:06:24] bows to him and he's like oh that's great so then oh i'm not done yet he finds a random asian man

[01:06:30] walking through the park and he's like he tells him about he's like yeah i got this great bow

[01:06:37] he and he and he bows like that and the guy's like he bowed like that it's like yeah he's like

[01:06:42] that's a shit bow so larry goes back to the original japanese restaurant it goes you gave me a

[01:06:47] shit bow and i just want to know larry david's reaction to john blackthorne's bow

[01:06:57] very funny very funny all right so let's go on to the main attraction marico sama or don't

[01:07:06] know depending on who you are okay well we've talked a lot about her already what else do we

[01:07:14] need to go through let's find out what allisha has to say first how about that oh well that's a

[01:07:18] very good marico my heart this last minute reprieve only for her to die after all um but man did she

[01:07:27] really get to show everything that she's capable of this episode first of all this is the most

[01:07:32] ruthless that we've ever seen marico and just sweeping her kimono around like a mic drop um

[01:07:39] and of course we're reminded of her grace in poetry now it's interesting this poetry line a

[01:07:44] leafless branch and yabushige even commented on it later which of course we discussed before that uh

[01:07:52] ochiba no kata means something like the room woman of the room with the fallen leaves so

[01:07:58] yeah very i think there's probably more layers that we could dig into there um now

[01:08:04] marico we also see what an actress she is like not just anise why but the character herself

[01:08:10] it was so interesting to see how she presented torinaga story about why he she has to be get

[01:08:16] his women out of there and just her face remains a mask but then she puts this quavering emotion

[01:08:24] into her voice like oh you know he had to uh more in the death of his son and i suppose

[01:08:29] probably there is some real sadness for her although it's not like you know she it's not

[01:08:34] like she was close to him herself um i think this is just very much her performing and

[01:08:41] we also got to see how she became a christian and once you see that uh you see how

[01:08:48] how the priest you know kind of saved her from herself from her psyche from her depression in

[01:08:55] her darkest moments uh you can understand her commitment to christianity and so it's also

[01:09:00] interesting to see how they uh come they show what you know the conflicts between being catholic

[01:09:07] and being japanese at this time um for instance the sin of suicide versus the obligation to kill

[01:09:15] yourself if uh in certain situations and you know the act of confession to the priest versus

[01:09:21] the eightfold fence that she talked about before um yeah it's also at the same time though i couldn't

[01:09:29] help but feel like the father was a little bit manipulative in terms of you know taking advantage

[01:09:34] of her by converting her to something she didn't completely understand in her darkest moment

[01:09:39] but maybe that's just my thoughts about religion in general uh we got her tour of goodbyes

[01:09:45] including that one and also including her son that little shit uh he got older but it seems like

[01:09:52] he got less mature definitely more manipulated by the people around him which is a danger of these

[01:10:00] you know hostage exchanges situations but yeah anisoi went out on quite the high that gate

[01:10:07] scene was one of the most incredible scenes i've ever witnessed on television i um i just

[01:10:13] loved all of the layers of of the story that they told the tension building but also little things

[01:10:20] like they showed she was fighting her all um but she did not have the same precision in form

[01:10:27] with the naginata that she had in her youth and i just appreciate the show's attention to detail

[01:10:32] like that martico will be missed by certainly by blackthorn certainly by torinaga but also

[01:10:39] definitely most of all by viewers yeah i mean if she doesn't get an emmy what's even the point of them

[01:10:49] what i wouldn't trust an emmy the emmy's ever again right uh i mean incredible performance all around

[01:11:00] this whole this whole shtick she's doing the whole season trying to figure out how i want to

[01:11:06] phrase this but the whole very calm cool collected doesn't move her torso much when she walks never

[01:11:16] raises her voice is always doing this slight smile thing this polite smile it breaks at different

[01:11:25] parts this episode and you see that that's not anisoi not acting that's her acting in a particular

[01:11:33] form and then later when she needs to break out the tears when she needs to break out

[01:11:39] the frustration the the tears she's trying to hold back i don't know how somebody acts like

[01:11:44] they're holding back tears so well because it's just to do acting and make tears come out right

[01:11:52] but then you're you're making tears come out but then holding them back right you dial them back

[01:11:57] the faucet a little bit right while you're trying to open it in at the same time right weird

[01:12:04] the scene when her son says well i'm not going to be your son anymore she there's a

[01:12:10] little quiver and a tear like her face starts to break a little bit yeah she looks so subtle

[01:12:17] she just looks hurt and and her son stands a star really is more interested in a betrothal

[01:12:24] with the enemy than he is don't talk bad about sanza with uh no but i'm saying sanza in season one

[01:12:32] and two season one we all agree really season one yeah season one we're all frustrated because she's a

[01:12:37] kid just like this guy's a kid you're right who is hanging around with with a rival house a lot

[01:12:44] and is like oh i want the fairy tale and that's it's a very similar situation no i love sanza

[01:12:51] as a character later on uh and i think she has a tremendous development and that's what makes her

[01:12:55] a really great character in fiction but we just aren't going to get that with this character because

[01:13:01] the series series ends in 45 minutes he does do something really interesting though which is he

[01:13:06] brings up the the whole question of duty and i love this and we talked about this at very

[01:13:11] beginning of the season this idea that you're on these rails of duty right my lord said my lord

[01:13:17] commands me to leave this castle everybody knows i need to obey my legion lord if i say okay i agree

[01:13:25] with you i can't leave that i'm disobeying my lord right so what do i do i'm i'm in a i'm in a bind

[01:13:31] here and so a lot of uh of the storytelling from this period i guess deals with a lot of these

[01:13:38] things like your allegiance and your loyalty and your duty to your lord and all these different

[01:13:44] situations torinaga has the freedom to be you know his allegiance is to japan uh overall as opposed to

[01:13:54] you know to his clan but then also he's always trying to think about japan

[01:13:59] maro mariko's gotta have a legion to her legion lord but then her son says what about your duty to

[01:14:05] god and i was like whoa i was like what is your duty to god in this particular point

[01:14:11] you know and especially when we know that the catholic church is using the

[01:14:17] sort of rapacious capitalism as a means to an end right they're trying to collect souls while the

[01:14:22] crown is collecting uh gold and silver so what is mariko as a believer as a true believer in

[01:14:30] in a christian faith what is her duty to god in this moment who's who comes first god or torinaga

[01:14:37] clearly torinaga right that's the choice that she makes i want to i want to talk about that so

[01:14:43] interesting because when the moment comes when she has to decide whether to commit a mortal sin

[01:14:50] or to do her duty to her legion lord she chooses to do her duty and she chooses and she rips off

[01:14:59] she breaks off not even takes off but breaks off yeah that's right that's right very deliberately

[01:15:08] right it's it's really it's really incredible it's it's her body language is just so great at

[01:15:17] conveying everything just the way her desperation builds but she's still willing to do her duty

[01:15:24] and she's just one slip of the dagger away from dying and great construction right because the

[01:15:32] cold open with the her back the backstory there of how her and alvido met perfectly sets up right

[01:15:41] it's just what we need she's running away they bring her back she meets alvido he gives her the

[01:15:46] cross so that thing is sitting there we forget all about it because of all the other drama

[01:15:52] that's going on and then boom they hit us with that when she when she rips it off yeah that is

[01:16:00] that is just such good storytelling that is um and you could go okay it's checkoffs cross right at

[01:16:07] the beginning here when is it gonna go the third act there it was yeah but it was so effective as a device

[01:16:14] that i just have to applaud the writers for that very very clever and they set up the question

[01:16:19] early on right you have your duty your loyalty to me and your loyalty to god do they conflict she

[01:16:26] says well i have multiple hearts it's fine he's like right what if that's right and she never really

[01:16:31] answers yeah that's right in the year it is right and she makes her choice right she makes her ultimate

[01:16:36] choice and then well she's still a married woman and and yet she chooses to sleep with blackthorn

[01:16:42] again so interesting yeah three hearts right yeah there you go three hearts indeed she probably could

[01:16:52] have gotten away at the end can we agree on that like she probably could have gotten out of the

[01:16:57] blast zone at least yeah yeah yeah you mean like she could have stepped away from the doors

[01:17:02] yeah totally they would have been captured i think at that point because that explosion would

[01:17:07] knock you know knocked the uh uh disoriented them and knocked them down and and those guys would

[01:17:13] have rushed in so they were in a pretty dangerous position there yeah so also i wanted to bring

[01:17:21] up the historicity this is really interesting hosakawa grassia which is the real life marco

[01:17:30] was famous for refusing to commit seppuku because of her christian faith faith oh

[01:17:35] interesting so this marco makes the opposite choice good very cool i like that she does i like to

[01:17:43] eventually die you know in it right you know there's a similar like political issue here

[01:17:50] but and so that's where the truth comes from but i think that this works so much better

[01:17:57] as a narrative device here right i mean you're not writing history as a narrative device you

[01:18:01] know what i mean yep i do know what you mean yeah just an incredible performance and a great

[01:18:08] what an incredible arc of a character i i don't know when i'm going to be able to rewatch the season

[01:18:15] but i'm definitely excited to rewatch the season because now knowing what we know in at the end

[01:18:21] of episode nine to go back to the beginning and to watch what nsy does with this character

[01:18:28] and how she builds her over the season yeah i'm really excited to see what what's going on there

[01:18:34] i want to look at the i want to look at the clockworks a little bit more yeah i want to get

[01:18:38] my wife back into it because she's she's falling off it a little bit i'm like you got it you

[01:18:42] gotta keep going from marco you gotta you gotta keep going let's have a courtyard fight a little

[01:18:47] bit yes we we do i think it's short uh because i i think it's you know compared to the the

[01:18:56] audience scene with ashito i think you made a good point there but the courtyard fight was a fun

[01:19:01] i i kind of broke it down a little bit and looked at it so the they start out with ashito has 15 men

[01:19:11] and tornauga has 12 and uh they take out one of the guys in the armor right away right so they're

[01:19:20] down one and then they take out another guy in the armor so they're down you know they

[01:19:26] the the archers take out the right guys right without just sending arrows down on everybody

[01:19:34] and so i think but if we look at that 15 to 12 and tornauga's forces end up with one man standing

[01:19:43] well what ashito you know is able the the last man of ashito is able to kill the last

[01:19:48] man of tornauga but he lives that's a pretty strong fight that that i would say that even

[01:19:54] though they lost tornauga's forces were stronger yeah if they didn't have the archers if they didn't

[01:20:00] have the archers up there i think tornauga's people would have won i don't know if they

[01:20:03] would have gotten through the second gate but yeah um but but they were never supposed to win

[01:20:09] right like they knew no going into that marco's like yeah i'm sacrificing everybody that's with me

[01:20:14] right now which is wild because those two dudes are like you know are we ready hell yeah we're ready

[01:20:20] are we're gonna die hell yeah we're gonna die but they knew what they were on her and we're gonna

[01:20:24] yeah absolutely and they were like and then when the last dude bowed her oh my god that was so

[01:20:31] intense yep it was an honor to serve you bow stab yeah like that was that was rough and those dudes

[01:20:37] in the armor were they were badass that one guy takes out the two guys in three sword strokes

[01:20:43] right he gets them on the quick draw one two three and he does the little flick to get the blood off

[01:20:48] the blade it was so badass awesome yep and then so this is where i wanted to get into the armor

[01:20:55] and the longbow stuff is because the bowmen the archers get him in a vulnerable shoulder spot

[01:21:03] exactly they nail that shot perfectly if they'd been a you know half an inch off either direction

[01:21:09] it would have uh you know not been maybe as effective because the armor would have deflected

[01:21:15] it or stopped it from going in as far i mean i'm sure is should have sent his best archers to make

[01:21:21] sure they didn't get out because it's pretty embarrassing to be on your home turf and have

[01:21:24] people escape anyway it's true so then when marco is walking up to face the dudes and

[01:21:32] they're shooting arrows at her feet we know she's good at with standing arrows being shot at her

[01:21:39] because remember way back when when buntaro shot an arrow across her face yep yep i also got the

[01:21:45] same vibe when she's standing in the middle of the carnage in general before everybody dies

[01:21:50] and she's just standing in the middle the calm in the middle of the chaos the eye of the

[01:21:54] story totally totally i took a couple of photos and i posted them in the discord channel

[01:22:02] there's another scene in this where she sticks out her hand and the nagakata spear gets put

[01:22:11] into her hand and there's this beautiful framing of her hand her kimono a couple of folks in the

[01:22:16] in the discord were mentioning this too the beautiful material of her kimono the grays of

[01:22:21] the scene just the balance in the composition of all the shots was incredible and like i was talking

[01:22:26] about at the beginning of the episode the way that they use the camera to push in there's a

[01:22:31] scene when they're getting ready to leave and we get a pair of shoji mat doors or whatever i'm

[01:22:38] not sure the particular technology name of that because they're exterior doors they're

[01:22:41] not the interior so they're different anyway they they open up the cameras right there

[01:22:47] the balance of people is perfectly balanced so there's mariko and there's the two ladies

[01:22:54] behind i forget what is it kirinokata and she's the other no kata yeah yeah the they are standing

[01:23:01] behind her and then there's two lady you know servants standing behind them so they're in

[01:23:06] this perfect little diamond formation the camera or the the the doors open the camera then

[01:23:11] pushes in on them perfectly as her face looks up the the craftsmanship and the camera work is

[01:23:20] incredible in this scene then when she finally falls down after fighting all the dudes look where

[01:23:28] she falls into she falls into the little semi circle of arrows that were shot at her so she's

[01:23:35] not only defeated but she's trapped all around right it's a really great subtle visual storytelling

[01:23:42] that that was so ah just exquisite but you have to think that the character mariko knew that too right

[01:23:48] because this whole thing is a play is i want to be surrounded by the arrow so you can see how

[01:23:55] many they shot at me just this little woman this this you know daughter of a disgrace samurai

[01:24:02] and you have to shoot all these at me you're that afraid of me leaving just to deliver a baby a

[01:24:08] newborn boy to his father right and that's the theater of it right that's the theater

[01:24:15] but she's fighting as hard as she can she's trying to fight those guys it's got to be everything

[01:24:20] she has until she's exhausted and if she dies they weren't gonna they weren't gonna try to

[01:24:26] hit her no they were just gonna block the blows right but oh man and that to swing that spear

[01:24:34] that's heavy yeah and then she's get she's hitting other spears and that shock is vibrating back down

[01:24:41] your hands i mean she really was going all out that that was exhausting it is so when she

[01:24:48] does finally collapse she is uh she's completely spent yeah so and it wasn't an act like it

[01:24:54] that was real but but it was real in the sense of theater right the whole thing's theater but she's

[01:25:01] really trying to do what she's really trying to do she went to the gene kusa now the school of

[01:25:05] exactly she's got to keep it real the truth of the moment yep the truth in the moment yep all right

[01:25:13] shall we do a favorite moment sure uh you want to you want to start off with one sure i

[01:25:20] really liked marikou's speech to ishido i think we talked about it to death but i mean that's the

[01:25:25] scene of the show to me not just the episode mm-hmm yeah i didn't think of it in that way in that

[01:25:30] terms because i was really focused on the on the courtyard fight but i i think you've you've

[01:25:35] got me uh you won me over to your cause i'm all about the verbal battles i'm all about sure

[01:25:41] this situation that all of a sudden turned ishido into the oppressor and torunaga into the

[01:25:48] liberator amazing brilliant uh one of mine well it was multiples but anytime that yabu shige and

[01:25:56] blackthorn were talking and they're like uh uh uh just sort of like you understand right uh huh

[01:26:02] yeah especially i thought it was really funny because like at least blackthor knows some japanese

[01:26:07] but yabu shige knows literally no portuguese and has no interest in knowing it do you

[01:26:13] understand he's like yeah yeah i'll just say hi it was brilliant i love those two guys uh even

[01:26:21] though he's a turncoat bastard you know he's uh he's our turncoat bastard is he i don't uh

[01:26:29] not ever really i don't know i love him that i you know you know what i'm saying i get you

[01:26:34] i i mean the sepaku scene i don't think i felt as tense in a scene

[01:26:39] i thought they were gonna do it a long time i thought it was gonna i thought i thought that was it

[01:26:44] yeah but the way they manipulated are like endorphins to be so relieved and then redevastated

[01:26:57] they gotta pay for my next real construction i just i exactly everybody submit your your

[01:27:03] therapist bills to fx after the season's over that's for sure uh i think the whole lady ochiba

[01:27:13] scene where she's talking with his shido in the council and i love the line it's her vengeance on fate

[01:27:22] i absolutely love that but then i was like oh that's really that's one of my favorite scenes

[01:27:26] but then she gives that look to uh seiki and i was like oh no damn that's that that's even a more

[01:27:34] look yeah she just kind of like slowly looks at up at him like you dumb mother

[01:27:40] yeah he's like oh and he looks down it was brilliant i mean i had as my third just

[01:27:46] watching lady ochiba the whole time because the way that she looks away when she's congratulated

[01:27:54] her engagement the way her face turns from like annoyed to knowing to angry to sad to

[01:28:02] boy is she expressive and then when she's hiding under her cover while watching the courtyard

[01:28:09] while watching the thing yeah it really puts into perspective how she feels i think she feels like

[01:28:17] the villain i think she thinks that she's the villain of the story a little bit

[01:28:22] well i think that's part of what um monica's mission is is to kind of shame her and to to

[01:28:30] to uh to push her emotionally in a direction where she starts to come out of her shell because

[01:28:37] what does she say her what was the line something about it's her fear her enemy is her fear

[01:28:43] right and she hides right and so she's so her part of her peregrine falcon mission is to

[01:28:50] push her out of her hiding position so she's actually out there in the sun and having to see

[01:28:56] things and realize you know the the stuff that's going on yeah that's a fair point which is

[01:29:05] which is interesting because when they my last favorite moment is when modico says to black

[01:29:10] thorn oh it's just a ruse you know so just let her speak you know stand there and be dumb

[01:29:15] because this conversation is really about her and i not about you so you're just here as a pretext

[01:29:19] can i also say i appreciated that marico translated something after black thorn didn't even speak

[01:29:26] she said she said the anjin thanks the air for his honor and it's it's like dude didn't open his mouth

[01:29:36] brilliant so good but yeah i just love i love it whenever modico says to black thorn just like

[01:29:43] dude you know do this don't do this whatever i love it when she just speaks plainly to

[01:29:48] it's it's always my favorite yeah so or when i and uh fuji did the same thing at one point she

[01:29:54] she just checked him just said dude knock it off yeah i'm your i'm the person in charge here so

[01:30:00] you know just just go with it i miss fuji i hope she comes back on the i hope we see her too

[01:30:05] yeah i'm gonna be very sad if we don't see her yeah you know in the book there's a whole line

[01:30:09] where like black thorn is like yeah this kind of hides her ugliness and i'm like

[01:30:15] boo that's so mean that's so mean and and i'm glad that they took away a lot of his

[01:30:21] misogyny in the show yeah yeah i don't think you would have i don't think we would have

[01:30:26] enjoyed the show this if they had done that no no and you know i think of you know a lot of

[01:30:31] people defend some of the choices in game of thrones and say like oh well it's historically

[01:30:35] accurate it's like yeah this show has more of an excuse for that than game of thrones does

[01:30:39] being in a fantasy world and manage it yeah they managed to tell a really great story without making

[01:30:45] it like gross you know what i mean shudo right without like oh shudo like this is historically

[01:30:52] accurate yeah that's that's that's a really good point so all right all right feedback feedback if

[01:30:58] you want to send feedback of course you can go to the lorehounds.com and use the contact form

[01:31:04] page or you can leave us a voicemail as some people often do or you can send an email to shogun

[01:31:12] shogun shogun at the lorehounds.com like Kyle M. Kyle M i believe this is Kyle M who's a lorehound

[01:31:20] subscriber so uh because we've got a couple of Kyle M's in our in our listing and and uh so

[01:31:27] i believe this is the one Kyle M who is says uh shogun episode nine feedback this episode was

[01:31:32] quite uh heavy emotionally i'm going to have to watch a few more times to really organize my thoughts

[01:31:38] but figured i'd send in a few stray observations i think we're all a little bit like this Kyle

[01:31:43] i think it's it was a very impactful episode so i feel like i need to watch this two or three

[01:31:50] more times to really catch all the nuances and and deal with all my emotions about it

[01:31:55] anyway he continues number one the portuguese church people serve as a little greek chorus

[01:32:01] as they try to figure out what torin augus plan could be has he given up i like that why is black

[01:32:06] thorn there it's a handy device and it feels natural too it also reintroduces the catholics

[01:32:12] and reminds us that they have uh also come to osaka so it isn't as jarring when martin shows up

[01:32:20] to chant uh chant with marico yeah sorry i'm missing that martin wait oh uh martin alvido

[01:32:28] yep yep yep okay got it yeah it's an interesting point uh a little greek chorus i like that yeah

[01:32:35] i like the framing of them is that and and they're all over osaka or as yabashige would say i hate this

[01:32:40] fucking city for a lot of reasons all right continuing number two i love how the regions

[01:32:48] think martin goes plan to commit sepku is just plain old girly drama but oh jibba knows better

[01:32:57] it's a good point she knows how serious and smart her friend is and the extent to which she has

[01:33:04] brought uh thought things through yep agreed uh and and it goes back to what um lady jibba said

[01:33:12] i think back in episode five when she's just like you're all just children you're all like little

[01:33:16] play things you know you're not serious you're not serious people as somebody else said in another

[01:33:21] television show that we're supposed to be comparing this one too uh that was a uh what was that show

[01:33:29] i can't remember what it is now my brain's melting out of my ears um not severance um uh succession

[01:33:36] succession succession okay there you go yeah he says to his children you're you're not serious

[01:33:41] people oh yeah i love you but you're not serious people yeah that's it number three poetry is used

[01:33:47] nicely in this episode in most of the series though marico does present a written poem as her last

[01:33:53] statement as she prepares to commit sepku poetry seems to be a largely improvised and ephemeral

[01:33:59] medium it serves as a metaphor for the beautiful but fleeting nature of life i think that's what

[01:34:06] a lot of japanese poetry incorporates when i was doing some reading and understanding a little bit

[01:34:14] more about japanese poetry a lot of it is about these rye observations or these really subtle

[01:34:24] noticings of things that are very fluid and fleeting and ephemeral i think you i think you

[01:34:29] really uh make a good point on there with that and it's a lot more that's going yeah and it's

[01:34:36] communal it's not just a little thing that you do but it's uh shared and it's a thing that we do

[01:34:41] it's a little thing that we do we there i like it yeah and and you you would share poetry with

[01:34:48] each other and you would kick it around and it was a fun thing to best each other with her a

[01:34:52] little bit so right i we did not talk about the poetry in this but i thought it was funny

[01:34:56] like the whole thing of like that's an amazing poem you know opening wait that's a stupid you

[01:35:02] know everybody's yeah yabashige hated the poem so brilliant but no who talks about dead sticks in

[01:35:10] the spring that's ridiculous right right yabashige own poetry critic exactly i think you can do a

[01:35:18] lot with the poetry in in this episode um all right so thanks thanks uh kylem uh definitely

[01:35:25] write in for the episode 10 if you've got something and certainly for the season finale

[01:35:32] all right we've got an w uh who is our other email today says hi guys thanks for your coverage of

[01:35:37] shogun i've really been enjoying the series and the speculation about the end game of the show

[01:35:42] to paraphrase another show from this year i wonder if we're asking the right questions

[01:35:47] i don't want to think about that anymore i've i've i've written that off of my top

[01:35:50] ten list already i don't think it's gonna last if it's it if it is it's gonna be it's gonna be for

[01:35:56] me probably around it we'll see how many shows we get but it's gonna be sort of nine ten maybe

[01:36:02] eleven twelve somewhere in there so yeah i don't i don't think just depending on the width of your

[01:36:08] there's a lot into it we've seen the public personas of tornaga ochiba and marico and what

[01:36:15] they say to their confidence tornaga is publicly surrendering while his friends know he is not

[01:36:24] ochiba is the demure mother of the air publicly while proclaiming her hatred of tornaga privately

[01:36:30] and marico publicly keeps saying things she wants um saying she wants to die but expresses

[01:36:37] spite towards her husband and a desire for revenge privately the three hearts saying suggests

[01:36:44] that there's an underlying motive we have yet to see from them which is presumably different

[01:36:50] from their first two hearts okay now we're cooking i think anna is on to something here

[01:36:57] we have to go back through and see how many hearts have we seen presented from everybody

[01:37:00] that's that's a okay so continuing yeah well if we do the right question i want to pass

[01:37:06] there i want to talk about these motivations i think that marico has a light bulb moment when

[01:37:12] tornaga says you know your father let you stay alive so you can you know be a tool still basically

[01:37:20] and i think she realized that in her mind at least and i'm not saying this is the right thing

[01:37:26] nor would i encourage anyone else to adopt this mentality but in her mind her her father

[01:37:31] saved her from dying so she could die at the right time right it's kind of messed up right

[01:37:37] yeah yeah but but she could die as a weapon at the right time

[01:37:43] and here she is she's the weapon that's probably gonna break this power dynamic

[01:37:50] absolutely she is this is uh this is the thing that's gonna destabilize i think

[01:37:54] all right should i carry on with in the email yep but to me the right question is who knows

[01:38:01] about the air's paternity assuming the theory is correct that he's not the son of the old tyco

[01:38:07] at a minimum minimum this would include his biological father but i get the impression from

[01:38:11] the last episode the dying old wife was also in on it that's interesting are you in on the fact

[01:38:17] that the tycos and the air are not actually blood related i mean it would make a lot of sense that

[01:38:24] you know how what it was like 50 concerts couldn't get pregnant and right this one does

[01:38:30] and you know that's not really how fertility works right like we it probably was him who is infertile

[01:38:37] and yeah yeah yeah yeah and also that would give tornaga a really good reason to see his control

[01:38:45] is this is not a legitimate air why are we letting an illegitimate child

[01:38:50] you know rule over us a child who has no connection to the last ruler

[01:38:54] right and so it goes how how far do you go with sort of the the blood connection because if he is

[01:39:02] designated the error of the tyco and everybody just believes it and even though they kind of

[01:39:07] know and you just roll with it right that's my question is how much does it really matter

[01:39:12] because if everybody wants to continue to believe in the fiction then the fiction becomes reality

[01:39:17] yeah what if the father pops up one day and says hey i'm the father here's my

[01:39:21] my paternity test right here we did all the you know the things i don't think it's my child

[01:39:26] the bet I know but you know what i mean like whatever the whatever whatever way he could prove it

[01:39:31] like just say you know you know here's proof yeah would it matter would it change anything i don't

[01:39:35] know i think it would in this society i think that uh the tyco leaving his son as the air

[01:39:42] under false pretenses of believing him to be his biological son would nullify the title so then

[01:39:48] everybody would have to reorient to the fact that tyco was not a good guy even though they all this

[01:39:53] time they'd have to all turn no that doesn't mean the tyco is not a good ion filings that just means

[01:39:58] yeah the tyco was deceived too right well yeah if it can be on that right right oh it's a messy

[01:40:07] messy situation it is messy well let's see what happens next episode and continues I also wonder

[01:40:14] who's the person hiding in the sun there seems to be some strong foreshadowing in the first episode

[01:40:18] when toranaga described how he admired the falcon strategy right that is an absolute foreshadowing

[01:40:23] for it of hiding the sun where it couldn't be seen before striking the obvious person

[01:40:29] for this seems to be toranaga himself but he's been doing anything but hiding in every

[01:40:33] episode characters in osaka talk about how dangerous he is and how wary they should

[01:40:38] be of him any thoughts yeah marico marico was the absolutely was the yeah nobody saw her come in just

[01:40:45] to be like oh yeah sorry i can't stay for your poetry hi yeah and that sorry i can't say for

[01:40:52] your poetry tournament is the line that takes down an empire it's oh it's really good i'm leaving

[01:41:00] tomorrow yeah i mean you're leaving tomorrow well i my lead lord wanted me to go back right that's

[01:41:04] the that's the that's the impact strike right there right up until that moment oh everybody's

[01:41:11] friendly she says yeah you're right you're absolutely right it is the poetry line that's

[01:41:16] that's where it was like oh my god yeah what do you mean you're not his voice starts getting

[01:41:22] higher he's like i don't know what's going on that's funny all right uh and concludes with a little

[01:41:29] post script could somebody explain the shaved hairstyles i've noticed even the portuguese priest

[01:41:34] has a strange shape job i've tried to look for a pattern and who shaves with rank age etc but i

[01:41:40] can't find it is it just a stylistic choice i think she's talking about different samurai and some of

[01:41:46] the uh retainers and aids and things like that there is absolutely something to that and maybe

[01:41:51] nat or abby or somebody else or davie mac i don't know could write in or somebody wants to do

[01:41:57] the internet research for us that would be awesome but there is definitely something to do with

[01:42:01] cutting of the hair and the style that you you get to wear because yabashige doesn't have it shaved

[01:42:06] like that right and whether that is tornaga but only i think the higher ranked people

[01:42:14] probably get to keep their hair right when taro doesn't i'll tell you what

[01:42:18] and if if we don't hear back from our other scholars by next week i'll get you an answer

[01:42:24] myself i'll go out and get you an answer myself go get some history all right well that's it for

[01:42:30] our feedback thanks for writing in and definitely looking forward to more again if you also just

[01:42:35] want to jump into chit chat with some other live humans who are enjoying the heck out of the show

[01:42:41] join us on our discord server we've got separate threaded channel little discussion places for

[01:42:46] each episode so you know you don't accidentally get spoiled and stuff but it's been a lot of fun

[01:42:51] chatting over there everybody's having a good time john what are we talking about now our upcoming

[01:42:59] stuffs yeah what are we doing what i've practiced this a few times this week so i can start

[01:43:07] let's talk about our affiliate programming quick we've got radioactive ramblings a fallout podcast

[01:43:13] which is growing really fast and it's covering the the newest show on amazon prime fallout

[01:43:20] based on the video games but it's totally separate from the video games you don't have to have played

[01:43:23] them to watch the show it's a standalone story and it's apparently very good i haven't watched it yet

[01:43:29] but uh the erin and chase the two co-hosts are getting rave reviews for their coverage and i hope

[01:43:35] you'll join them over on that feed and they're i guess i'm gonna be doing something else soon

[01:43:40] we're not sure what else they're uh i'm just looking at some of their analytics they're

[01:43:45] they're kicking ass they are they're doing a really good job they are i think it's i

[01:43:48] don't think a lot of people are covering the show so i think that's uh uh no it's their

[01:43:55] conversation david it is chase is funny he's a couple of times he's cracked me up i've only

[01:44:01] been i haven't been watching the to them in the middle because i haven't watched all the shows yet

[01:44:06] but i have been listening to the intros and the outros yeah chases yeah he's got he's got me

[01:44:12] laughing a few times right well cool you can expect their season seven the last two episodes of the season

[01:44:21] very short they're already recorded it yeah okay and uh yeah so you'll expect that shortly and

[01:44:27] they're gonna do a final season wrap up and listen to feedback episodes so get your feedback in what you

[01:44:32] can rings and rituals is also around yes we love rings and rituals mariland arpaquilla who i've

[01:44:39] seen twice this week a lot of lovely week for me uh and dr sarah brown of signum university

[01:44:45] they are doing a rewatch and analysis of season one of rings of power through the lens of rituals

[01:44:51] so they're talking about all of the tolkien legendarium they're looking at each episode seeing

[01:44:56] the events that happen in it and trying to see what that says about the peoples of middle

[01:45:00] earth what that says about the characters it's a really great dense season i know that

[01:45:06] they're even venturing into other tolkien subjects mariland was telling me is like

[01:45:10] they can't help themselves but to talk about like what is magic in polka so uh yeah a lot of a lot

[01:45:15] of great great conversations yeah i was just gonna say really quick on rings and rituals like don't

[01:45:20] don't think of this as a uh rings of power season one sort of recap thing think of this

[01:45:26] as a deep dive in the into the legendarium of tolkien i agree they're just using the show

[01:45:32] as an entry point but it then the conversation ranges from there so so don't be shy because

[01:45:37] oh i didn't like it that much or i haven't watched it recently that's not the point of it the point

[01:45:41] of it is to to talk about ritual right so carry on we'll shift dust we'll shift us back alisha's

[01:45:49] doing beacon 23 season two she as i as i just did last episode i know you howie she did an

[01:45:56] interview with you howie and uh that's the author of the books that beacon 23 is based on

[01:46:01] so check that out on her feed i know she's got some dune stuff coming some star wars stuff coming

[01:46:06] plenty of stuff so keep an eye out on there and keep an eye out on our community updates for more

[01:46:11] updates on her star wars project properly howard movie review i feel like david you're the guy to

[01:46:16] pitch this can i just say that i i am genuinely a fanboy of properly howard if properly howard

[01:46:25] wasn't on our network i'd still listen to the hell out of this stuff i i love these guys it's a

[01:46:31] lot of there they're they're picking up movies that i i think are are wild so their current season is

[01:46:37] felonies and fugazes they picked 10 movies from the 80s and the 90s that are all crime related

[01:46:44] go back there's a a movie draft where they they pick their five films each and they have

[01:46:48] different categories and a whole bunch of stuff it's really funny they have just put out

[01:46:55] a review of point break with keanu reeves and uh patrick swazy which is a really fun

[01:47:06] digging into sort of the it's not the buddy cop but it's the adversarial sort of thing and the

[01:47:12] surfer it's it's a riot it's absolutely their breakdown of whether keanu reeves is a good actor

[01:47:18] had me rolling i was laughing so hard through that right so i'm saying this is what i'm saying

[01:47:25] so next up is shakedown which is 1988 movie about an attorney and a rogue cop

[01:47:33] that uh get into some trouble it's pretty hilarious it's peter well i'm not peter weller

[01:47:38] who's the guy who played robert i'm blanking names right now anyway after that each movie

[01:47:42] be to us no but now upcoming after that is tango and cash then pulp fiction then gross point blank

[01:47:49] i think true romance is in there my cousin vinnie so they got a really wild lineup for for this year

[01:47:55] so go check them out and i absolutely the they're ending credit music i honestly listen to it from

[01:48:03] all the way through every single episode so yeah i'm a big properly howard stan we love properly

[01:48:10] howard we also love shogan which will be back for for the season finale and then a season wrap up

[01:48:16] that's our main gig right now following that we're gonna go right into our house of the dragon season

[01:48:21] one rewatch coverage which should be a lot of fun uh you've got a monkey man one shot out david

[01:48:29] you've got something coming with x-men 97 yeah i'm not sure where we're gonna do with that but

[01:48:35] that yeah john and alisha we're gonna do something before x-men 97 you've got another one shot on

[01:48:40] civil warrior about to record sometime in the future you're gonna record a one shot with marilin on

[01:48:46] dick turpin yes for sure and we're somewhere we're gonna try to get a masters the air recap in there

[01:48:54] as well uh it was a little bit of a disappointing season but there's some important things to

[01:48:58] talk about and so we just gotta get into that a scheduling thing so all right you guys had halo

[01:49:02] halo came out you finally had halo done and out that was awesome it happened it happened it was a

[01:49:07] lot of fun we talked you know i gotta tell you even if you're not like big into the halo games

[01:49:13] we've introduced a couple segments up front which are what are we playing and what's the latest in

[01:49:17] gaming news and i think those those are for everybody even if you're not a big fan of the

[01:49:22] games and we do a spoiler free pitch of the game and uh and a rating of the game before we

[01:49:28] actually go into it so check and then this one you you um you tied it in a little bit to the

[01:49:33] television show we did john pitched it to us yeah and he accidentally spoiled season two for us but

[01:49:38] i deleted it from the recording funny the magic of podcasting indeed you guys gonna do some doctor

[01:49:46] who i think coming sometime in may when it comes okay i think it comes right may 10th or 11th oh i

[01:49:53] have to double check the date but yeah we got doctor who something coming with that i think

[01:49:57] we're gonna do a preseason mid season you know things like that and uh we uh so merleon is coming out

[01:50:05] this sunday for the public it's already out on the patreon and uh on tuesday you're gonna get

[01:50:12] earth sea and that's already on patreon as well so don't forget you get early access on the patreon

[01:50:17] feed that's right yeah as soon as they're done we try to put them there uh eight s ap yep yeah

[01:50:24] then we've got the accolade house of the dragon the boys the bear who knows when severance is coming

[01:50:28] back so a lot of things in our future a lot of things indeed cool all right time for some thank you

[01:50:35] shout outs yep discord server boosters sure opus and the machine oh my gosh are we are we

[01:50:45] we're both trying to be polite copy me before before ourselves yeah i know no sir after you

[01:50:51] contest no you know what i've said i'm enough this week you give a thank you i was gonna say

[01:50:56] we could alternate i could read that's okay it's gonna get too confusing with the delays on the

[01:51:00] recording opus and the machine gnarls erin k teller the thriller dork of the ninjas do 71 thank you

[01:51:07] very much for making our discord a better place for all of our community to our top tier subscribers

[01:51:15] be they supercast or patreon subscribers samar shen mark h michael g michelle e david w brian p

[01:51:22] nick w sc peter oh pettina w adam s nancy m duve 71 brian 80 63 fridtrick h sarah l garth c eric f

[01:51:32] matthew m sarah m dj miwa andra b quang yu dead eye jedi bob nathan t alex v erin t sub zero

[01:51:41] erin k dally v 21 mothership 61 gnarls and forever last but never least ajan thank you all so very

[01:51:50] very very much for being our anchors being our support to make all of this wild and wacky thing

[01:51:57] that we call podcasting available to our community because it's not just about john and i but it's

[01:52:03] all about all of y'all as well so thank you well david after recording bell john probably like 10

[01:52:11] hours of podcast this week i think i'm gonna go have some cha and i'm gonna go to bed so i will see

[01:52:17] you for the next episode of shogun night everybody the lorhounds podcast is produced and published

[01:52:24] by the lorhounds you can send questions and feedback and voicemails at the lorhounds.com

[01:52:30] slash contact get early and ad free access to all lorhounds podcasts at patreon.com

[01:52:36] slash the lorhounds any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or

[01:52:40] belong to any employers or other entities thanks for listening

[01:52:53] hey listeners erin here if you're watching fallout on amazon prime video then we have just the

[01:52:59] podcast for you radioactive ramblings is joined the lorhounds network we are going to be breaking

[01:53:04] down the show episode by episode making far-fetched theories and dropping some tidbits of lore if you

[01:53:09] want to hear us ramble tune into radioactive ramblings linked in the show notes we hope to have you

[01:53:15] join us in the wasteland