Silmarillion Stories - E22 - Beren and Luthien Part 2

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[00:01:19] Welcome to Silmarillion Stories. We're the Lorehounds, your guides to Tolkien's world of Middle-earth. I am Jon, and this is our podcast for A Beren and Luthien Part 2, the 22nd portion of The Silmarillion. In this episode, we are going to be discussing the greatest dog of all time, the humbling of Thingol, and the death and return of Beren. If you want to get in on the Tolkien Talk, send an email to lotr at thelorehounds.com or head over to our Discord, which you can find in the link tree in the show notes.

[00:01:46] In that link tree, you can also find links to Supercast and Patreon, where you can support the team here and get bonus content like Second Breakfast and Elevensees. Okay, with me again is Lee, aka Silmarillion. Lee, how are you? Welcome back. Thank you for having me again. I'm excited to be here and to finish talking about this amazing story.

[00:02:10] Well, I'm excited to have you here. Can you remind people, you know, we talked about your Tolkien background on our last episode on Beren and Luthien Part 1. And if you haven't listened to that, I don't know why you're here because this is the second half of the chapter. But do you want to just tell people where they can find you on social media and whatnot? Yeah, I am Silmarillion on virtually everything, TikTok, threads. I've just joined Blue Sky. Oh, and the Voices of Arda YouTube channel where there's a group of different Tolkien creators together as one YouTube channel.

[00:02:40] So that's Voices of Arda and part of that as well. And that's New Better Do Better too, right? That's New Better Do Better, Kali Cosplay, Kaya K, Airplane Facts with Max. There's a few of us, so yeah, good stuff. Oh, I'm on Instagram as Silmarillion as well. Okay, great. And one day I'll recruit the rest of the Voices of Arda to cover a chapter. Yeah, definitely. We'll see what happens. But we already got New Better Do Better, so I'm partway there. I'm going one by one. You got him to do his nerdy map chapter.

[00:03:09] You know, it's funny. Somebody just commented on it the other day. They were like, I was surprised, as surprised as New Better Do Better that A Balerian and His Realms is such a nope-out chapter for a lot of people. And I was like, I don't know. Everybody I talk to is like, that's the chapter where if you get past that one, you're okay. Yeah, I think first time around it is difficult. But like when you get first, when you're rereading and rereading, it becomes more interesting to you as you understand how the geography actually does affect the story and stuff.

[00:03:40] Right, right. Even rereading something like this one today, I'm like, oh, I forgot that this elf was part of this entourage and things like that. Yeah, right. It's like how many times I've read this story over the years and yet I read it again. Like I reread the ending the other day for this and the stuff that I didn't remember. Again, every time you pick up on new stuff, it's amazing. Right, right. Well, we are not here to talk about Ye Olde Balerian and His Realms today.

[00:04:08] Today, we're talking about the hallmark story of the Silmarillion, probably the one best known by everybody. And that is of Baron and Luthien Part 2. We covered the first half of the chapter last month. And to recap, we met Baron and Luthien. Baron took on a quest to get a Silmaril so that he could impress his would-be father-in-law Thingol and then get the hand of Luthien.

[00:04:36] And so far things aren't going that well. And they had a big battle with Sauron and his werewolves. And then Finrod, brother of Galadriel, he died in the process. And we just left the dying Finrod and we are going to resume here. Yeah. So we just had Finrod walks with Vanartfin, his father beneath the trees in Eldemar. Always gets me that line. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:03] Well, at least he's with his father. He's with his love. He never married in Middle-earth because he... Yeah, he got back to go to Amartie. Mm-hmm. So hopefully... He's not having a bad time. I think he's probably having a better time than most. That's true. Yeah, he's probably having a better time than the Noldor left in Middle-earth. That's for sure. Yeah. So let me just read this first plot point so we can get into our discussion. Luthien heals Baron and they return to Doriath with Huan.

[00:05:32] Baron leaves to return to Eggman and seek the Silmaril once again. However, Luthien hears Baron's song. I believe it was the song of parting. Mm-hmm. And rides to him on Huan. They disguise themselves and reach the gates of Eggman. Yeah. So they get back to Doriath and Baron does that thing again of being like, Oh no, she's the woman. She has to stay at home and be safe. And he sneaks off.

[00:06:00] He sneaks off while she's asleep to go and carry on his quest. Meanwhile, she's the one with powers. Yeah. Like she's just saved him. He would definitely be dead if it wasn't for her. Yep. She's just saved him and brought down Sauron. But now it's like, no, no, she's got to stay here and be safe. It's really, it's really ridiculous, but it does fit with Tolkien's worldview. I think of that time, right?

[00:06:26] Is that only, only the truly exceptional women get to be put on an equal footing with men. Yeah. And then, but at least we do get the subversion of the trope. It's like, instead of, you know, the, the woman in the tower needing the knight in shining armor to come rescue her. We've got the subversion of it here that Baron had, had his lady come and rescue him. Right. Yeah. It's interesting to see Tolkien sort of fall into his, into the traps of his times, but also kind of move past them a little bit.

[00:06:55] He was a little prescient in that way. I think. Yeah, definitely. There are definitely times where he, he was ahead of his time. It feels. Um, and yeah, Luthien being the one who keeps saving Baron. Mm-hmm. I think definitely like encapsulates that. There's also a lot of disguises in this chapter. I noticed. There is a lot of disguises. We had the, the Finrod set and now we have this set.

[00:07:20] There's a lot of the kind of magic goes on in this chapter that we don't really see anywhere else. Mm-hmm. So it was like Finrod used his elf magic, um, to disguise them. And now, uh, Luthien does the same to disguise herself as, um, Thuringwethil and Baron as, um, Draugluin, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:46] Uh, and Baron's like even horrified by seeing Luthien like holding. Luthien in this like vampire bat form like clings onto his leg as he's running. Mm-hmm. And it says like every so often he like catch a glimpse of her and it's horrifying. Yeah. Because of how she looks. That's, that's very funny. It's, you know, this is an interesting point that you make about a lot of magic in this chapter.

[00:08:14] Uh, I think of Marilyn Arpokila who contributes regularly to our channel. She was with us on all of ranks of power as well. Mm. Uh, she always brings up the difference that Tolkien would make between Magia and Goetia. Yeah. And sort of, you know, this is interesting to me because this feels more active than most of elven magic to me. Yeah, absolutely. It really does.

[00:08:36] Um, and I, I don't know if it, if it's like a leftover from this story existing like before a lot of the rest of it was redone. So it feels like there is this more active magic feeling left into it. There is more absent in other parts of it or what, but yeah, there, there seems to be a lot more magic of that particular kind in this chapter than elsewhere. Right. Right. Right.

[00:09:05] It's interesting stuff and there, there will be more magic as we go through this chapter. Mm hmm. Um, I also, I want to mention as well that happens at this point because it's significant to this story, but it's significant to the story of the Silmarillion overall, which is what's happening in Norgothrond at this point. Um, because we talked about last time, Kellegorm and Kurufid. Right.

[00:09:31] And their plans for Luthien, um, when they, you know, they tricked her, they took her back to Norgothrond. Um, so at this point they return to Norgothrond, but so do a load of the prisoners who have now been released from Tolingauroth where they were imprisoned by Sauron.

[00:09:50] And they come back to, um, to Norgothrond and are telling everyone what happened, um, that a woman dared to do what the sons of Feanor would not. And obviously, um, the kind of, the spell that Kellegorm and Kurufid had over them is broken. Um, I use spell there as a metaphor just because we've been talking about magic as to what people think was an actual spell. Well, but I think language is very often a spell of the elves, right?

[00:10:20] They are very, very often words are power with elves. That's true. And the way Kurufid spoke is like, he seems to have inherited some of the oratory skill that his father had. Um, I think I'm just reading too much Dune right now with the voice. But yeah, that, that's broken. And there's the important part that, uh, Kurufid and Kellegorm are chucked out of Norgothrond by Orodreth.

[00:10:47] And Kurufid's son, Kellabrimbor, repudiates the deeds of his father. And he pretty much cuts ties with him at that point and remains in Norgothrond. And, but Kellegorm and Kurufid, with Huan, who has gone back to Kellegorm, get thrown out on their ear. Which then does become relevant because they catch up with Beren and Lucien again.

[00:11:14] Um, and they, they tried to kill her. Uh, they, they, yeah. Um, there is a fight. Beren is about to strangle Kurufid. This is also significant because it's where Beren gets Angrist, the knife. Oh, okay. Which is the knife that he's going to use. Mm-hmm. Once they get to Angband, he gets that from Kurufid.

[00:11:42] Um, but yeah, then as the sons of Feanor are riding away, uh, Kellegorm shoots his bow and aims it at Luthien. Um, and Huan jumps and catches it in his mouth. Kurufid shoots again. And he gets shot. Kurufid's arrow goes into Beren. Um, and then the sons of Feanor escape. But yeah, that's, that's how, um, Beren gets injured.

[00:12:12] And Luthien heals him. It says, by her art and by her love, she healed him. The power of love. Good for her. She's, she's doing a lot of healing. Like, I gotta say, Beren is really in parkour mode for this whole chapter. He's like, anytime I can put myself into danger, I will. Yes. I will. No checking around corners. I will just step in front of any bullet. Yeah.

[00:12:39] He does a lot of jumping in front of bullets and stuff, doesn't he? Um, yeah. He'll learn his lesson on that before too long. Right. Um, yeah. You almost say like, how did he not die earlier? Yeah. Because of Luthien, basically. Right. Because he's got this like half angel woman with him. Who's going to like save him every time he gets himself nearly killed.

[00:13:07] Um, so yeah, it's then that he then sneaks off while she's sleeping. Yep. Um, once they're in the bounds of Doriath. Um, but she follows him, of course. Um, she hears the song, she finds him, and then they turn into the forms of Draugluin and Thuringwethil. So the werewolf and the vampire.

[00:13:35] And head on their way to Angband. They do. And at the gates of Angband, they face the great wolf Karkaroth. Yes. I can never pronounce that right. Luthien gets Karkaroth to sleep and they enter the throne room of Morgoth. Though their disguises fail, Luthien sings a song so beautiful it puts Morgoth to sleep to dream of the void. As his head bows, Baron takes a silver rail from Morgoth's crown.

[00:14:05] Baron tries to be cute and take more, but accidentally wakes Morgoth, causing the group to flee. Yeah, he got greedy, didn't he? It's interesting though, because, you know, I remembered him getting greedy. And then I reread it and I said, the way that Tolkien writes it is that basically the energy of the Silmaril flowed through him. And he goes, maybe I should take all three.

[00:14:28] It almost felt like it was this holy courage going into him rather than just individual greed. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think it was greed in a negative sense. It was like, yeah, that he should take them all and almost like free them from Morgoth. Yeah, the Silmaril was saying, get my siblings. Get me away from this guy. Yeah.

[00:14:57] I want to talk about Karkaroth as well, because Karkaroth has been bred for a very specific purpose. Okay. Which is to kill Huan. That is why Morgoth has bred him, because there is this prophecy about Huan the Hound, that he will only be killed by the greatest werewolf that ever lived.

[00:15:21] And this was part of Sauron's downfall against him, is that Sauron, who was ever prideful, was like, oh, that's going to be me. Right. And that's why he went and fought Huan and got his ass handed to him.

[00:15:34] But yeah, so it says about Karkaroth that Morgoth specifically chose him from the brood of Draugluin, fed him with his own hand upon living flesh and put his power upon him. So he has specially bred Karkaroth for the purpose of one day killing Huan.

[00:16:02] Like, that is how afraid, pretty much, Morgoth is of Huan. That he's had to specially breed this wolf who he has now sitting as a god at the gates of Angband. Yeah, I guess anybody but an elf who comes from the West, he's like, nope, nope, we got to handle that. Yeah. And yeah, it says a lot about Huan as well and how great he is. We all love Huan.

[00:16:33] Yeah, and he's only really in this. I can't remember if he's in any of the other chapters prior. I think maybe he's mentioned briefly. I don't remember if he is mentioned, but like, he would actually have been there this whole time, like all through. He'd have been by Celegorm's side, like during the Kinslaying of Al-Qualonde and the burning of the ships and everything. He'd have been there through all that.

[00:16:58] Which, yeah, it's weird to think about him actually being present when them things happen and you're like, did he participate in the Kinslaying? Yeah, that's a good question. I like to think he would have stepped aside and been like, I don't approve of this. Yeah, you like to think so. You're still my master, so I will stand by your side. Yeah, it's best not to think too much about that. We don't want to think about Huan doing bad things. Right.

[00:17:26] Yeah, so they come to the gates of Angband and they are greeted by the wolf, Karkoroth. And then Luthien does her thing again and she puts him to sleep, right? Although she doesn't do it with song this time, right? She basically just commands him to sleep, which is interesting. Yeah, here it is. Lifting up her hands, she commanded him to sleep, saying,

[00:17:51] O woe, begotten spirit, fall now into dark oblivion and forget for a while the dreadful doom of life. And I was actually talking about this with someone literally just yesterday. Is that actually kind of feeling bad for Karkoroth? Because he's had no choice but to become what he's become. He has been groomed by Mordogoth to become this horrible monster.

[00:18:18] And the way Luthien says that then, it's like she knows that too. And she feels bad for him. And that's why she says, O woe, begotten spirit, go to sleep and forget about your awful life for a while. Which again shows Luthien's insight into this kind of thing. Yeah, and continues the pattern of the greatest heroes in Tolkien's work are always moved by pity.

[00:18:47] Yeah, absolutely. That's often what saves the day is the pity of the protagonists. Yeah, definitely. And having that compassion even in four creatures that a lot of people would just very dismiss having any idea of compassion or thought for them. But there is even Luthien is feeling that. And then they actually confront Mordogoth himself. Right.

[00:19:17] The big guy. And says Baron slunk in wolf's form beneath his throne. And Luthien's robbed of her disguise. But she was not daunted by his eyes. Like the fact that she has the strength of will to stand before the Dark Lord and not be daunted by his gaze. He's incredible, really. Yeah.

[00:19:47] Yeah. And then, yeah, she named her own name and offered her service to sing before him after the manner of a minstrel. So she already has got her plan of what she's going to do. She goes, step aside, Baron. You needed me this whole time. Yeah. See, he's just gone and hid under the throne. He can't do it lately. What is he going to do? Can't contribute here. It's all on Luthien.

[00:20:15] I think what's really interesting about that is a lot of people could have done what Baron did. Not a lot of people could have done what Luthien did. No. Absolutely. Maybe no one else. Yeah. Quite possibly. I mean, she is like the most powerful elf because she's half Maia. Right. But yeah, he's just like hiding under the throne while she does her thing.

[00:20:42] And yet Morgoth, looking upon her beauty, conceived in his thought an evil lust and a design more dark than any that had yet come into his heart since he fled from Valinor. That's pretty dark. Yeah. And I like that he's back in the void during his trance, right? He's. Yeah.

[00:21:08] Imagining the thing, the very thing that made him go crazy is where he's being sent back to. Yeah. Set upon him a dream dark as the outer void where once he walked alone. And then he falls off his chair. He actually falls off his chair, which I mean, that must have been a bit humiliating for him when he came round.

[00:21:34] Not only did he get put to sleep, he's literally slid off his chair and his crown that has the Silmarils in rolls off his head. And then Luthien has to go and wake Beren up because he's fallen asleep as well. And then he uses. He's just like kicking him. Like, come on, go cut it. Do the thing.

[00:21:57] And that's when he takes the knife, Angrist, which he took from Corofin and cuts the Silmaril from the crowd. From the crowd? From the crown. I get words. Which is an incredible achievement, really.

[00:22:16] And this is why I always feel like as great as this story is in and of itself, I think it needs to be in the context of everything else to fully appreciate the significance of them getting the Silmaril. And like what a big deal that is. Because it really is. It's like all these wars are happening pretty much because of these duels.

[00:22:46] And yet they've actually managed to get one. Something that the seven sons of Feanor have been failing to do for hundreds of years. Yeah. And we're post-fall of Fingolfin now, aren't we? So even Fingolfin couldn't defeat Morgoth. Couldn't defeat Morgoth enough to do this. I know Morgoth's not fully defeated here, but, you know, it's a big blow. It's a big blow more than anyone else could have done.

[00:23:14] And to lose one of these duels, which he is kind of obsessive over as well, is a massive blow to him. Yeah. Part of me does wonder, like, could Beren not have just, like, used the knife and just, like, shanked Morgoth in the head or something? Well, but then you get into, like... Killed, but... Yeah. It's just a raiment. Is it going to do anything? Yeah. Is it even going to shake him out of it? I don't know.

[00:23:41] All I know is Morgoth's never going to financially recover from this. That's where he's at. I suppose from Beren's point of view, it's like his goal is to marry Luthien. And for that, he just needs a Silmaril. So... Right. He's not thinking too big of a picture here. He's like, I need the Silmaril so I can marry the love of my life. But yeah, then... I think that's also some humility too, right? Like, I'm a regular mortal man.

[00:24:11] I cannot go kill Avala. And that's why, you know, when Gandalf is scheming to defeat Sauron, he's not sending Frodo to go stab Sauron. He's like, okay, we need, like, a thing you can actually do, buddy. Yeah, that's a good point, actually. Yeah, it probably doesn't even occur to him that he could manage to kill him. So, like, he doesn't even enter his head to try. He's just doing what he can do, hopefully can do.

[00:24:42] And he does manage to get his Silmarilm. Yeah. Tries to get another one. The blade snaps and hits Mordogoff in the face and he starts waking up. And that's when it's time to run. Yep. Because you got Balrogs around too. Once everybody starts waking up, it's not a great place to be like that. Yeah. It's like, oh no, we need to get out of here now.

[00:25:08] And they do manage to run, but, like, it actually isn't looking well for them until a familiar old friend, who comes and saves the day quite often, shows up. He's putting in the work. On the way out, Karkaroth bites off the right hand of Baron and leaves him poisoned. Karkaroth is enraged with pain as the Silmaril burns his insides. Hope seems lost when the eagle Tharundir rescues the duo and brings them back to Doriath.

[00:25:37] There, Baron takes a long while to heal and Huan returns to Luthien. Yeah, so Karkaroth starts his mad rampage. Really interesting the way that, you know, they make very clear in this chapter and we've heard in earlier chapters, Morgoth is burned by the Silmarils every time he touches them. That's why they have to be in a crown. Yeah. And Baron was not burned by them. It was fine with his flesh. Yeah. This is not an Infinity Stone.

[00:26:06] If you're a Guardians of the Galaxy fan, you can hold it. Even though when they were hallowed by Varda, it was hallowed so that no, it was said that no mortal flesh could touch them. So I think Baron is protected here by that good old word, doom. Yeah. Yeah, by doom, by a little, hey, look over there. Yeah. A little sleight of hand there, but that's all right.

[00:26:34] But Karkaroth obviously is tortured by it because he's an evil being and he just can't touch this. We'll be right back with more Silmarillion stories.

[00:27:04] And then we see Morgoth's anger is shown as well by the fact that like, like the ground itself seems to come alive. It says, as they're being flown away by the eagles, below them suddenly thunder rolled, lightnings leaped upwards, and the mountains quaked. Fire and smoke belched forth from Thangorodrim, and flaming bolts were hurled far abroad, falling ruinous upon the lands.

[00:27:31] And the Nulldor in Hithlum trembled because they wouldn't know what the hell was going on. Suddenly they're just, you know, going about the day and suddenly all this starts happening. And I also find it fascinating that Lúthien actually sees Gondolin as they're flying back to Doriath.

[00:27:51] They fly over Gondolin, but she's understandably is focused all on Baron and how very, very unwell he is at this point that she doesn't even pay attention to Gondolin. Because she's worried about Baron. But yeah, the eagles come to the rescue again. Yeah, I mean, can I just say, they had zero escape plan. They had nothing.

[00:28:21] Had Thorondir not come, they weren't getting away with that Silmarillion. No, they were dead. It's pretty clear about that in the text. Because, yeah, it's another part of this whole escapade that they didn't really think through. So it's almost like part of them thought they probably weren't going to get this far anyway. Right, right. But it's like, I feel like Manways on Tanacuedo saying,

[00:28:47] Okay, these people are, these dummies have put no thought into this. I'm going to go send Thorondir and make sure they get out okay. Yeah. Yeah, he steps in. He did that for Fingon to rescue Maedhros. And he does it for Baron Luthien. Just little things. Thorondir's like, what am I, a taxi service? This is ridiculous at this point. Oh, dear.

[00:29:11] But yeah, so they do make it back to Doria. And Luthien is happy to just keep wandering in the wilds and stay with Beren. And it's Beren who thinks she's too good for that life of just wandering around in the wilds. It says,

[00:29:41] It seemed also to him unfit that one so royal and fair as Luthien should live always in the woods, as the rude hunters among men. Whereas it says Luthien indeed was willing to wander in the wilds without returning. She was quite happy. But Beren thought, you know, she's above that. She needs better for that. So they head to see Fingon.

[00:30:08] And then everybody's favorite, Minstrel Dairon. The best thing in Rings of Power was when Kyridan called Dairon insufferable. I know. I was laughing really hard at that. And I brought that up in our coverage because I thought it was so funny. It was a really good poll. That was, I think, where they sold me on the humor for the season. Yeah. It was so good. I mean, it was like, I was first, because that whole scene, first you had him shaving with a seashell.

[00:30:36] Which was just like, then he name drops Rumeil. And I was excited about that. But then the Dairon one was just perfect. Yeah. Perfect. Because, yeah. Dairon, he betrayed Lucian twice. He's very much like the original, oh, she put me in the friend zone sort of man. The original incel. Yeah.

[00:30:59] And now, because she comes back with Beren, Dairon leaves and is never seen again. Because he can't handle that she's happy with someone else. So it's like, see ya. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Careful. You'll get a cameo in season three of Rings of Power, Dairon. Yeah. It turns out he escaped to the east. He was in ruin the whole time. Yeah. Oh, my God.

[00:31:26] But, of course, Beren can't stay in the wild forever because he has to deal, he has to deliver the sickest line that Tolkien ever wrote. I mean, I always say, like, Tolkien puts this in every single version. There's so many changes between the different versions of this tale. But he always puts in the line, even now a Silmaril is in my hand. And you know that when our good old J.R.R., when he wrote that line down, he went, nailed it. Like, I got him. Got him with that one.

[00:31:55] But it's like, this is the second time that Beren is really sassy to Thingol. It's like we talked about in the previous one when he says cheaply to Elven King sell their daughters. Yeah. When Thingol basically puts a Silmaril as a bride price. And yeah, now there's this one. It's also the fact that the way he does it as well is, like, he holds his hand out. I mean, I'm doing it. Obviously, the listeners can't see me, but I'm doing it. He holds his hand out with the fist.

[00:32:25] And then opens his hand as if to say, whoa, psych. Because it's empty. And then holds up his stompy arm. It's just like, mate. But this whole display kind of woos Thingol in a weird way. It does. Because you'd think he'd be, like, angry at that. But it completely goes the other way. And this is what, it literally says Thingol's mood was softened. So maybe he had a sense of humor after all.

[00:32:55] I think what happened was Melian was telling him the whole time, like, this is about fate. This is about doom. This is about, you know, something bigger than you and me. This is about bigger than your feelings. And Thingol waited for this moment to say, no, it's my idea. I actually like Baron. And so don't worry. Yeah. So he wants to take the credit for it all right now. It's like, oh, it all worked out. Yeah. It was totally my idea. See, Melian, I told you he was a good guy. But yeah.

[00:33:22] And then I think right then and there, they actually get married. Therefore, at the last, he yielded his will and Baron took the hand of Luthien before the throne of her father. So they do actually get married, even though Thingol hasn't actually got his Silmaril at this point. He has softened enough to Baron for whatever reason, whether it's like cynical and he wants to take the credit or he actually has softened a bit.

[00:33:50] Because from this point on, his view towards humans is very different to the point that like he even like raises Turin as like a foster son. Yeah. And welcomes Morwen and Nienor in. So he does seem to change his mind about humans in general because of Baron. Yeah, that's true. That's true. I haven't thought of it that way.

[00:34:17] But Karkaroth is still out there on his mad pained rampage. We've got a hunting party together. Yeah. I mean, this isn't even Karkaroth's fault at this point. He's not doing this on purpose. He's being driven insane by the agony of the Silmaril burning him. But yeah, he is destroying the country. So they get the boys together, the hunting party together.

[00:34:45] So we've got Thingol and Beren, Kuan, Mablung, and Beleg. So it's like all the top hitters. I totally forgot Beleg was in this story at all. Yeah. And Beleg is so significant in Of Turin Turinbar. Yeah. And I totally forgot he was in this. Well, he don't do that much besides pretty much just going on the hunt, I think. Mablung does a few other things.

[00:35:15] I think it's Mablung who brings Thingol the news about Karkaroth being on the rampage. And then Beleg just turns up to go on the hunt with them. But he is there. He sure is. And, you know, I think it's interesting to have somebody who was a companion of Beren, the last great heroic man. Yeah. And then later be a companion of Turin.

[00:35:44] And that's as much as I'll say about it for now because we'll save spoilers for those who are on their first read. Yeah, of course. So, yeah, they get the hunting party together and they go after Karkaroth. And they find him where he's drinking. He's drinking the water from one of the rivers that runs through Doria, Thiers Galduin. It does kind of soothe it a little bit for him.

[00:36:14] So they find him where he's drinking that. And Huan actually jumps the gun a little bit because it says, Beren Serbisai Thingol. And they're just like watching and waiting, Karkaroth, watching, waiting, waiting and watching Karkaroth from the shadows.

[00:36:40] But it says, Huan becomes impatient and desiring to look upon the wolf. Because Huan, of course, he knows the prophecy about himself. And he knows Karkaroth. And he wants to see this wolf that is the one that has been raised with the purpose of killing him. Right. And so he basically instigates the fight.

[00:37:11] But Beren, Karkaroth goes to attack Thingol. And this is what we were saying before about Beren taking a lot of bullets. Takes another one. I bet you Thingol could have survived it too. I know, right? He's like, one of them, he's Kalaquendi. But Beren, Beren is Beren. And he jumps in front of him with a spear.

[00:37:40] Karkaroth sweeps it aside and bites him. And then Huan and Karkaroth have their insane fight. Which is, yeah. It's like the wrath of the Valar and the howls of Karkaroth was the hate of Morgoth. And they have their fight. But it's interesting how much Thingol has changed in his view of Beren.

[00:38:09] Because they're having this insanely vicious fight to the death between god dogs, for whatever better way of describing them. But Thingol gave no heed, for he knelt by Beren, seeing that he was sorely hurt. But so Thingol is now so concerned for his son-in-law that he's not even paying attention as these hounds of the gods are fighting behind him. Also, what is he going to do anyway?

[00:38:38] True, but you'd think he'd be like... He's not getting involved in that. One of the sad bits is that Huan kills Karkaroth, but his own doom is fulfilled.

[00:39:03] And Karkaroth gets a fatal blow on Huan as well. And it's really sad. I'm a big dog person, so this really gets to me. And so then he came and falling beside Beren spoke for the third time with words, and he bade Beren farewell before he died. Beren spoke not, but laid his hand upon the head of the hound, and so they parted.

[00:39:33] And there died the goodest boy in all of Arda. The goodest boy. I think that's a great title. Yeah. And it's really sad, but then Beren is like... Oh, and then we get Beleg got another mention here. Mablong and Beleg came hastening to the king's aid. And then it's actually Mablong who cuts the Silmaril out of Karkaroth.

[00:40:06] And I think it's interesting that it says that quickly and in fear, Mablong took it and set it in Beren's hand. Like, he doesn't seem to particularly want to be handling the Silmaril. I didn't catch that. I thought it was more of fear that Beren would never get it. But I think you might be reading it right. I don't know. Maybe Mablong doesn't want it. Anyway, actually.

[00:40:33] Maybe he fears being judged by it, essentially. Maybe, yeah. He's just like, oh, this has caused a lot of trouble. I don't want to get drawn into it. I suppose it's because as well as the whole Doom of Mando's thing is centered around the Silmarils and the Oath of the Feanorian Oath and everything. And he's worried that if he touches it for too long, then the Sons of Feanor might come after him or something. Or, you know, he'll get drawn into the Doom of Mando's.

[00:41:02] Yeah, you can hear the Oath of Feanor play in the background. Whomsoever! Yeah. There's no exceptions. Oh, our friend. And Mablong's like, quick, catch this. I don't want it. Hot potato. There we go. But part of the Oath is actually, whoso hideth or hoardeth or in hand taketh, finding keepeth or afar casteth. So even Mablong getting rid of it actually does bring him into the Oath.

[00:41:28] So I don't blame him for being quick and in fear about touching it. What Corifin doesn't know won't hurt him. And yeah, so he finally has the Silmaril and he says to Thingol, now is the quest achieved? Like, here you go. I got it for you. And he spoke no more. Yeah. And then they carry him back to Menegroth.

[00:41:57] And this is where it gets really sad. They carry Beren back to Menegroth and Luthien meets them there. And it says, There she set her arms about Beren and kissed him, bidding him await her beyond the Western Sea. And he looked upon her eyes ere the spirit left him. But the starlight was quenched and darkness had fallen even upon Luthien Tanuviel.

[00:42:27] And yeah, because he dies. She tells him to wait for her in the halls of Mandos and he dies. And then she dies as well from the grief of it. Mm. The spirit of Luthien fell down into darkness and at the last it fled.

[00:42:51] And her body lay like a flower that is suddenly cut off and lies for a while, unwithered on the grass. And then the really big change happens in Thingol because he sees his daughter die. And it says, Then a winter, as it were, the whore age of mortal men fell upon Thingol. Actually witnessing his daughter die ages him.

[00:43:18] It physically ages him and turns him grey like old humans. Wow. That's how much it hurts him. And then she goes to the halls of Mandos. And then this whole bit is so beautifully written.

[00:43:45] Luthien came to the halls of Mandos where are the appointed places of the Eldalia, beyond the mansions of the West upon the confines of the world. There those that wait sit in the shadow of their thought. But her beauty was more than their beauty and her sorrow deeper than their sorrows. And she knelt before Mandos and sang to him. And for the first and only time ever,

[00:44:13] Mandos is actually moved to pity by the sorrow of Luthien. But then they have the problem because they can't change the fate of men, the gift of men. So they got to call a supervisor. That's the next step. Yeah. Because within Tolkien,

[00:44:41] death as in the death of mortals that leave the world is a gift. And they can't take that away from them. So he goes to his supervisor, who is Manwe, who then goes to his boss, who is Iluvatar. Right. I got to take this all the way to the CEO. I mean. Yeah. Like this is above my pay grade.

[00:45:08] And then Luthien is given a choice to either be re-embodied as any elf would be and go and live in the Undying Lands as an elf for the rest of the world, forgetting all griefs from her life that her life had known. Or because Beren can't do that. They can't change his fate.

[00:45:35] It was not permitted to the Valar to withhold death from him, which is the gift of Iluvatar to men. But the other choice was this, that she might return to Middle-earth and take with her Beren, there to dwell again, but without certitude of life or joy. Then she would become mortal and subject to a second death, even as he.

[00:45:59] And ere long she would leave the world forever and her beauty become only a memory in song. So basically your choice is you can go back to eternal life, but Beren can't. Or you can both go back to Middle-earth for a very brief time compared to what she's used to. She's over 3,000 years old at this point. Right.

[00:46:25] And I think they have about another 30 years before they both, because that's what she chooses. Obviously at this point, after all they've been through, she's made it clear that whatever path he treads, she's going to go with him. And this is no exception. So that is her choice. Which is pretty crazy. I mean, it's a guy she just met basically, right? And everyone she's ever known for 3,000 years, she can't ever see again.

[00:46:52] But this one guy, she's like, this is what's happening. Yeah. Her father, her mother, literally everyone she's ever met. Because I think everyone she's ever met at this point, it's only ever elves. So she's never met humans before. And she falls in love with the first one she meets.

[00:47:13] But yeah, it makes me kind of understand why Elrond had kind of kept Arwen hidden away from mortals for so long. Yeah. Galadriel was too careless and they met and then it was a whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. Although Galadriel even kind of helped Aracor. She nudged it, yeah. Yeah. She helped. She's like, go put on a suit.

[00:47:40] Yeah, she dresses him all in this fancy white outfit and cleans him up. But that's interesting as well because Galadriel was in Doriath when this happened. Like she saw Beren and Luthien. Yeah. So it's interesting then that she actually helped because then she knows what that means for her own granddaughter to make that choice of Luthien.

[00:48:08] Perhaps with her sort of foresight she saw like this is going to be the next great union, maybe the last great union. The one that brings the bloodlines of all them together because in their union it reunited the bloodlines of all the houses of the Eddine and all three houses of the elves back together in one. So yeah, they could be part of it but it still must have been difficult for her.

[00:48:38] Yeah. I always feel like the elves as a species collectively never really recovered from losing Luthien. Because even elves who were born centuries, millennia after she died still talk about her with this reverence and this sense of mourning.

[00:49:05] Like because no elf had ever been lost to them like that before. And yeah, it's like it's left a permanent scar on the entire race of elves. Like that's just, you know, this wound that's so deep is that one of them was lost forever, like beyond the world.

[00:49:33] And that brings a lump to my throat as well as just like how they all collectively grieve for her. And that's, I think it's encapsulated on this last line. Yet in her choice the two kindreds have been joined and she is the forerunner of many in whom the Eldar see yet, though all the world is changed, the likeness of Luthien the beloved, whom they have lost. It's whom they have lost.

[00:50:02] It's like it's a loss to all the elves. Right. But perhaps not a loss to Luthien herself, right? She's gotten the gift of men. She's going to be beyond even the age of Arda. She has now gained a sense of immortality.

[00:50:18] Yeah, that different immortality that Finrod explains to Andrath in the Atherabed Finrod or Andrath, that mortals are in a way more immortal than elves because the elves are bound to Arda and will exist as long as it does. Right. Whereas mortal souls leave Arda and continue on somewhere else.

[00:50:45] But it is, this whole story is always like, and I ask people this sometimes, do you think Beren and Luthien has a happy ending or do you think it's a tragedy? Because. I think it's a happy ending for Beren and Luthien. I think it's a sad ending for everybody else. Yeah.

[00:51:05] But even then, it's like you said, for Luthien, she is still being separated forever from her mother and her father and the rest of her family. Yeah. I mean. Perhaps Tolkien is thinking in a very Catholic terms of she's smiling down on them now. Yeah. She can see them from the afterlife, you know? Yeah.

[00:51:26] But I think, um, I think the word I use for it mostly is bittersweet because I think it has elements of both the happy ending and the tragedy. Yeah. Um, and I think that becomes really clear with Arda and as well. And she uses the term when she's talking about Luthien, she says, for mine is the choice of Luthien, both the sweet and the bitter.

[00:51:50] Like she recognizes herself that it's not all going to be rainbows and smiley faces. You know, it's going to be, it's going to be painful. Um, and I don't know. I think that's just why this story is so affecting is because it's not fully one or it's not fully the other. Like the children of Hordin is very, very much tragedy.

[00:52:14] Um, but this like seems to have a, have a foot in both, both categories. Um, it's happy ending, but it's tragic at the same time. Um, I, it's, it's just, it's just so beautifully written and just. I think Tolkien was very good at sort of giving you a resolution. Yeah.

[00:52:39] That felt very realistic in terms of not everything was tied up nicely at the end, right? Frodo doesn't get to stay in the Shire forever. Oh yeah, absolutely. Like, yeah. End of Lord of the Rings. It's a happy ending and that the evil's over and done with, but Frodo. Yeah. He doesn't get to go back and just carry on his happy life in the Shire. Yeah.

[00:53:03] And I think that, yeah, it's, it's very true about, about, you know, reality is that there's, you know, there's always something really that you never get a fully happy ending. There's very few total wins, right? Yeah. Um, but yeah, I just, I love this story. I'm so glad that we, I got to do this one with you. Well, I'm glad you were able to come on.

[00:53:31] I know because you, you first volunteered to do this and I said, we got to do this in two parts though. Are you okay with that? And you were like, yeah. Oh yeah. Um, more time to talk about it because as we've said, there is a lot that happens in this chapter. Um, and it, you know, it's setting stuff up for the future as well. Like the fact that, um, Norgothrond is now very anti the sons of Feanor, um, which will, you know, have significance down the line.

[00:54:00] And obviously the reclaiming of a Silmaril from Morgoth obviously has a huge significance on the rest of everything going forwards. Um, it's such, it's such an important chapter, both as part of the overall story and as you say, in and of itself and to Tolkien, like Tolkien himself referred to it as the chief tale, I think were his words. Um, I mean, he even had it inscribed on their graves, right? Yeah.

[00:54:29] That's how much it meant to him that yeah. On when his wife, Edith died, he had Luthien engraved, um, on her, on her headstone. And then when he died, his family had Beren put underneath his, um, it shows how, how significant this was. And the fact that this was even inspired by Edith, um, like the scene where Beren comes

[00:54:54] across Luthien dancing was directly inspired by, um, when he was on a picnic or something with Edith and she was dancing in a glade and that's where it came from. Um, so this was a very, very special chapter for Tolkien on a personal level, um, which I think can't help but make it a very special chapter for us as the readers, especially with

[00:55:21] that background knowledge of how important it was to him. Um, make, you know, it, it gives it an extra dimension when you're reading it, that knowledge of how important it was to him. Right. Um, yeah, it's just so good. It is. And you, you've put such a good fine point on it that it's, it's such a good encapsulation of both just a good story on its own, but also a really significant story in the greater world.

[00:55:50] I think we got to leave it there. That's, that's the, the note to leave it on. Yeah. Well, can you tell again, first of all, thank you very much for being on both of these episodes and taking the time out to share your expertise with the Lorehounds community. I know people have been loving having the guests on your first episode, which hasn't aired yet. So they have not been exposed to that yet, but I know they're going to like it a lot. I hope so. And I'm, I'm sure we're going to collaborate again sometime soon. Yeah. This has been really fun.

[00:56:20] I've really enjoyed the, yeah, me too. So can you tell people where to find you if they want more of your Tolkien takes? Mm-hmm. I am Silmarillion. Again, I am on TikTok, threads, blue sky, and Instagram. All right. Well, welcome to blue sky. We've been warming up the Lorehounds. We have a starter pack on there. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. We're, we're trying, we're trying to be all over the blue sky stuff. I'm new on there because I, I started threads and now I'm like, oh, do I have the energy

[00:56:49] to keep up with so many different social medias? It's hard. So we'll see how I manage. I think we're focusing on blue sky. We're not doing threads right now. We're going to, we're going to try to try to keep it all on one spot for now. Yeah. Very much sensible than what I'm doing. Well, you're probably doing the thing that's better for your business though. So anyway, um, thank you again and we will see you again soon. Thank you.

[00:57:13] I am so grateful to Silmarly Ann Lee for coming on the podcast, not once, but twice to break down the complex and beautiful chapter of Baron and Luthien. Make sure you go to Lee's link tree in the show notes to check out more of her content. For now, I don't know when this is going to come out because I'm recording this well in advance, but check out all our affiliates. Nevermind the music, Radioactive Ramblings, We'll Shift Dust, Properly Howard Movie Review

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