The Rings of Power - S02E05 - Halls of Stone

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_04]: The Lord of the Rings is fundamentally a story about project management.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_08]: Welcome to the Rings of Power podcast where the Lorehounds your guides to Tolkien's world of Middle-earth. I'm David.

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm John and I'm Marilyn.

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_02]: This is our coverage for prime videos original series the Lord of the Rings the Rings of Power season 2 episode 5 in this podcast

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_08]: We're gonna start off with our hot takes and then we've got some errata from episode 4 and then we're gonna get into our

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_08]: detailed scene by scene breakdown of the episode

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_04]: If you'd like to contact us send emails to

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_04]: lotr at the lorehounds calm if you want to join our discord server or support the community by subscribing with either

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Supercaster patreon you can check out the link tree link in the show notes below

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_08]: And if you're not into recurring subscriptions

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_08]: You can also find a link to our season pass where you can pay a flat one time

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_08]: $10 fee and you get ad free episodes our

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_08]: weekly bonus lore cast episodes where we dig deeper into the legendarium and

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_08]: You get access to the one guide to rule them all our hand forged visual guide for the season John

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_08]: Kelleb Rimbour would like you to redouble your efforts, please

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_08]: Anatar said that he'd be willing to assist you

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_08]: But I think you're gonna be need to work night and day on this I already do so

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_08]: He wants for me. Yeah, you got to squeeze out that extra a little bit

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, hopefully anatar is not planning to add an extra, you know hours

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_08]: 24-hour day. He's got some meat thrill. He'd like to weave into the silicon. I see Marilyn

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_08]: What did you think of episode 5?

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's um, it's pretty impressive pretty intense

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It seems to me that they are demonstrating that this is the age in which the elves learn the meaning of the long defeat

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_08]: Mmm. What do you mean by that?

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's a saying that collateral has in the Lord of the Rings where she says something about

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Together with kill a bird and bore they have fought the long defeat

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, I don't remember that is that when Frodo that when they're in Lafloria. Yeah. Oh, okay

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't remember that line. Yeah. Yeah

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So it isn't you know, we aren't actually in battles yet

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's I just I keep thinking about this in terms of the directions that so many things are heading

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_04]: That's my new

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Spoiler thing. So if anyone says a spoiler inadvertently and I think I'm gonna put that over

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_04]: I was inspired by Alicia and her leaping me on the acolyte

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_04]: So now we're gonna have Frodo saying keep your secrets every time someone blurt out a spoiler. That's the waffle

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Yep, watch and find out or read and find out. Yeah keep that for everything. All right, then keep your secrets

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I like that. That's good. That's good. Let's take it

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So I had a thought

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm wondering if the stranger may actually rally the desert folk who were diseased by the bad wizard

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think the disease may prove to be leprosy and

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_02]: They will follow the stranger in a rebellion against the bad wizard and by extension against so on so

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_08]: No, this is a new theory. You've got cooking. It's a theory. It's okay

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_08]: So I thought I would just share it out for are you putting internet points? Are you are you putting some bets down?

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not quite as confident. Okay, let's see how I feel after the next

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_08]: You've got it in your your tinfoil pot on the stove. There we go. I'm not one up there

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_04]: We're half ration of internet points to you

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the events in this episode are done brilliantly and they are so unsettling and distressing and some of them just downright perfidious

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the p-word. Yeah. Yeah Vickers and Edwards are just knocking it out of the park and in the next time zone

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_02]: They are so

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Gifted at what they're doing. It's it's a

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_02]: marble to see

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of beautiful sets and there's one set in particular

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I just want to spend hours looking at every single detail and you gentlemen probably know which one that is and we'll

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_08]: Is it maybe on the island of Numenor?

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_08]: We have to talk about that stained glass window when we get to that scene, oh, oh absolutely

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, great. So you enjoyed the episode. I take it. I it's it's tough for me to say

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I enjoyed it because so much of it was so painful

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Mmm, but in a good story. It was well, I mean obviously if it's that painful

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not not enough. Oh my gosh, how could they possibly do that sort of right?

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Not a cringy pain, but yeah the pain that says yeah

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_02]: You're you're hitting all the notes and how we need it. That's the word point

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Very poignant cool. I want to smack a few people too, but that's something

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_04]: John what did you think of this episode? You know, it's interesting. I the first time I watched it

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_04]: I thought we were on a little bit of a slowdown

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, we were doing more setup and I didn't like it as much as episode four

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_04]: I think I watched it right after my second watch of episode four

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_04]: so maybe it was just that I was so high on Tom Bombadil on the pipe weed of Tom Bombadil that I

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Wasn't ready to go back to the seriousness of Numenor and Eregion right away any cause of doom for that matter

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_04]: But my second watch I liked it a lot better and I thought it really does pull a lot together in ways that

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Were not before I really love the way that we're seeing the dwarven ring effects

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Start to appear that that's much more that's really interesting to me because we've not seen that portrayed on screen before right?

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Everything's roomer by the time of third age. Yeah, yeah and

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_04]: I still think that they have not adequately addressed Numenorean politics, but I also think

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_04]: The interpersonal parts of Numenor are working for me

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And so the plot is working for me because the primary thing has to be the interpersonal stuff

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_04]: I for one would like a little more like well, why do these people like what's their philosophy?

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Right because right now it feels very simple simple of like I don't like the elves

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I do like the elves and that that's less

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_04]: That's less interesting to me than like the fear of mortality which they allude to in this episode

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_04]: But it's not super explicit and it's it's the first time we've heard this worry of pharaoh zone

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_04]: The fear of dying and comparing himself inadequately to the elves

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Hmm. I just think that they could have done a better job setting that up

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_04]: But like I said, I think that the interpersonal parts are working. They are making me love to hate both Kemen and a Arian

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Seriously, they're made for each other aren't they but also I think it what's it

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Really good is that pharaoh zone is kind of a charmer like I don't I don't have the same vitriol for him as

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_04]: I do for the others which is funny because he's the one pulling the strings

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_04]: But he's just more

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Interversely charming and I think that is something we have a strict an issue with in the real world

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Right is we we look at charisma and we think charisma equals good intentions

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_04]: But in reality it could mean bad intentions to it's the we look more at the way somebody communicates

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Interpersonally than the impact of their actions and words

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think it's also difficult to remember way back to the first season when we were told that you know

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Muriel's father was essentially deposed because of his desire to go back to the old ways

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So that is a subtext that is supporting all of this, but they're not really

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Highlighting that so much. We kind of have to do a lot of memory work on our own

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe you know the feedback

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going a little too deep but the feedback that we got that new Minoan culture reminded one of the listeners about Judaism

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think of I I can't think of the name off the top of my head

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_04]: But there's a king of ancient Judah who says hey

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_04]: We should go back to the old ways and he finds an ancient script that has the whole Torah on any

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_04]: He's like all right

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_04]: let's implement all this stuff and

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_04]: I I think basically the point is the society was not having it and right

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_04]: It was just too late to save the kingdom I want to say that was Josiah, but I think that's right

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, well listeners write in if you want that was the name of my head, but I didn't want to say it wrong

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so I think you're right. Thank you for the confirmation and and that's that's so interesting to me that he's pulling from biblical myth

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Too. Oh, yeah, it's all over the place isn't it? Yeah

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_08]: David your hot takes hands down my favorite episode of the season so far

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_08]: Head and shoulders above the rest. I

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_08]: It just feels like everything's coming together

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_08]: The the stakes like I'm really starting to feel the tension and the drama and the you know

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_08]: The stakes have been set and things are starting to happen now

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_08]: the

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_08]: All of the production elements the acting the scripts the sets the camera

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_08]: it's all

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_08]: Working, you know, it all feels like the the music is, you know, the conductor is

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_08]: Got the band in line and everybody's playing, you know the the right notes at the right time sort of sort of thing

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_08]: There are some a few lines of dialogue in this episode that are absolute fire and I've made a note of a couple

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_08]: of them

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_08]: Again, yeah the way they're using the camera

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_08]: There were a couple of small points that were like I was like, I don't know about this

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_08]: And one of them was the the tuning crystal rolling away

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, and there was something else but like they're so minor kind of in the in the grand scheme of things that I even

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_08]: forgot what the other one was that I was thinking and

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_08]: So yeah, I was just really satisfied and I felt like okay. We're finally

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_08]: Stuff's happening and it's it's happening in a great way and I enjoyed the heck out of it

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_08]: I was on my seat the entire the entire episode

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_08]: something that I've noticed and

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_08]: Just listening a little bit here and reading a little bit there not too much. It seems like

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_08]: you know the show is

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_08]: It's not seems like the show but the the show is

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_08]: walking a fine line of

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_08]: Overbalancing their individual creations

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_08]: the books and every you know all the written material and then the movies and

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_08]: No matter

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, like if they're if they're overbalanced in one way or the other you're you're gonna hear a lot of

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_08]: Flack coming from one particular sector right of the movie people are oh, yeah

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_08]: The book people are wow, you know, and then the you know, the the just the regular TV fans

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_08]: But if you're catching about an equal amount of flack from all sides, yeah, then you're right in the middle

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, yeah, and it feels like they're they're pretty well balanced and that's a hard thing to do

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_08]: And you're dealing with an estate and a fandom that is gonna let you know when you screw it up

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_08]: and so

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_08]: You know people may be gnashing their teeth a little bit and throwing some, you know comments here and there

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_08]: But by and large I think so far, you know fingers crossed we're only episode we got three more to go

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, they're they're walking the line kind of where they need to be

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_08]: They could be a little balanced one way or the other

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_08]: but I really think they're they're threading their way through this and for me this episode really is

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_08]: a demonstration of that

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_08]: Because it feels like they're confident in their storytelling the actors are starting to grow into their roles

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_08]: sometimes for an actor it's not until

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_08]: Season two midway season two that you're actually starting to go. Oh, I got this character now

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm really being able to embodying it and so during an attar

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_08]: Gladriel, you know add ours news

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_08]: So, you know, we're gonna see what's going on add are like all of these characters

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_08]: You really feel that the actors have grip, you know

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_08]: I've come to grips with who these characters are and in during the third in this episode is just fire

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, he's just so good and

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_08]: Anattar and watching Charlie Vickers in a couple of scenes where he's thinking it through and then he kind of comes up with

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_08]: A plan and then you see his head nod and you know from one direction to the other and you're like, oh

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_08]: And so yeah, I'm just really I'm just really enjoying I enjoyed the hell out of this episode and that it's making

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_08]: Me feel very good about the season overall

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I see what you're saying David and I think

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_02]: The way I'm experiencing it is they are

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Confidently in the saddle and telling their story now, right?

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Right that it sometimes as you say it veers one way sometimes it here's another but I think they're owning it a lot more

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Than they did in the first season and again, I think post-covid makes a huge difference

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, because they have so much more freedom now

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And post-strike and yeah, I'm post-strike all all of this stuff. We tend to forget

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_02]: The time they were filming was our really tough time there was a little bit of chatter in our discord

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_08]: You know people are sort of like finger nail biting gosh

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_08]: we hope we you know, because we had a terrible we kind of have a little bit of a debacle in the Star Wars

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_08]: universe where they're

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_08]: you know what they green light and what they cancel is seems to be very capricious and

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_08]: So people you know a little nervous you're like, oh is it's gonna get a season three season four

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_08]: I I don't know. I have a weird feeling that Amazon is just like unless you guys really F this up

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_08]: You've got five seasons just just keep doing what you're doing and don't worry. And I think that also gives

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_08]: Showrunners and writers and production crews and actors it gives people

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_08]: Confidence to lean into what they're creating and to pour some of their their Freya froh what it was the spirit

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Fair why don't we say pour some of his malice

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_08]: But you know to put some weight into their performances and to their craft and into their writing and

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_08]: When you feel it's like fine, you need a little bit constraint. You need to be a little bit concerned like okay

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_08]: We've you know, you want a little bit of pressure

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_08]: But you know unless you have that room to grow and know that you're gonna be able to grow and that you're what

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_08]: You're putting into it is gonna actually result in something. And so it really feels like this

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_08]: This episode just to me feels like they have wind in their sails

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_08]: They have a course set and you know, they're they're sailing their hearts out and and that feels good to me as a TV fan

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_04]: And our hearts are even bigger

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Than their feet

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Sure, I go into the front matter. Yes, so

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_08]: Real quick. We'll just zip through this shout out to all of our season pass subscribers and our regular subscribers if you've joined during the show

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you so very much

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_08]: It's made a real big difference for us and we're really hopeful that you guys are enjoying the content

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_08]: Obviously when we see the subscription notice was like, oh great people are like what we're doing

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_08]: So we get an email and you go huh? That's nice

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, yeah, and then we come to our podcast like with a little bit more energy so thank you

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_08]: lore cast

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_08]: so

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_08]: This week we released a whole episode on Tom Bombadil. I

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_08]: Read some poetry. I

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_08]: Sang and you sang and that's people seem to enjoy they haven't unsubscribed

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_08]: So and going back we have

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_08]: A

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_08]: Podcast on the my are we have the one on Bombadil and then we're gonna do one on new manure this week

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_08]: right

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_08]: And we've been talking about some ideas orcs

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Maybe ball rags nameless things

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm not sure what else we're gonna come across but we're kind of seeing what the episodes bring and

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_08]: Then we're like, okay. That's a really important thing

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_08]: So obviously after this episode we want to get into some new minority in politics

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And if there's something that you are very curious about and you want us to cover then write in and suggest the topic

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, absolutely

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_08]: Lot are at the lorehounds.com

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_04]: John how's the show guide going? It's great. You know, I had to correct the spelling of Suzotte now that we know that it's a

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_04]: I think we're to talk about that in a minute, but things are going swimmingly

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, I've got I've got the recap ready to post when the embargo lifts and

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Not too many new characters this time

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_04]: So I don't have to rush and add a bunch of new characters all of a sudden on Thursday

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_08]: Which is nice that always helps so and if you don't know what the the show guide is we use a platform called notion

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_08]: So we have a there's like a database of on-screen characters. There's a location guide. There's an artifact guide

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_08]: There's the weekly episode

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_08]: Recaps which we use for our recaps

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_08]: So that's all included in the season pass or if you're a regular monthly yearly subscriber

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_08]: That's also part of your benefits. So definitely if you're interested in that

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_08]: It's a it's a great resource second, especially as a second screen when you're watching the episode

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_08]: We are fortunate enough to have access to screeners. Thank you Amazon

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_08]: Especially thank you to the IT folks because a couple of weeks ago you had a little problem Marilyn and they were on this

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_02]: They were fabulous. They you know

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Back-and-forth real time in in chat sort of mode and finally they gave me a phone number and I called somebody and we talked

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_02]: About it and now I have a magic password that I just type in and both there it is. It's beautiful

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So yes, once I finally found the right person, right?

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Which is always important it is it is but yeah, you find the right person and wow, they are really really good

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_04]: show Bezos

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_08]: so with the

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_08]: Spoilers the the

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_08]: Screeners we don't have the titles nor do we have the subtitles

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_08]: So we're at a slight disadvantage

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_08]: But that means that we get the episodes right out for you

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_08]: So as soon as the episode is as soon as they lift the embargo on us allow it being allowed to share details about the

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_08]: Episodes which is nine o'clock on Thursdays in Eastern time John. Yep, and

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_08]: If we have watched ahead of the episodes

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_08]: We will be very careful to try to not spoil

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_08]: All in the episode, right? So if some people in this podcast I didn't do it

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I was very good this week. I did not watch ahead and I knew I wasn't because I had no time to do that

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I knew I couldn't I just I knew that that really wasn't a very good idea to do so

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I did not do it

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_08]: All right

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_08]: Basic coverage plans if you have any other questions go back to our episode one for season two

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_08]: We talked about that we talked about our backgrounds Maryland's an academic. She's taught and studied

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_08]: Tolkien John is a super fan read tons. I'm a casual

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_08]: Tolkien fan, but a avid TV watcher

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_08]: feedback

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_08]: Lotr at the Laura Helms calm you can send voicemails

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_08]: You can use the voice memo app on your phone and then record yourself and send it there or you can go to

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_08]: Our website there's a contact form there and a voicemail tool embedded in the website

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_08]: Just report and it uses your your system settings

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_08]: Nancy M our hand of the pod are what did we call? What was the lore master thing title that you guys hang a lot of a

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_08]: Pangalua, yes

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_02]: She she could also be a raven

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's something that grm stole from Tolkien but in the hobbit they use Ravens for miss

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, we called her she was yeah, she was hand of the pod for house of the dragon

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_08]: She's that's fine. Yeah, we hand of the pod

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_08]: She's collecting all of our feedback and putting it into a Google Doc for us every week and sometimes she will get in touch with folks

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_08]: You send in a feedback just to let you know that she got it or if she has any questions or clarifications

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_08]: And we're relying less on discord for feedback for this season

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_08]: We relied for it a little bit more in house the dragon

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_08]: So really the email address is the best way or the contact form on the website is really the best way to get

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Stuff and we had her second voicemail already. So yes exciting

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Alright, we have some errata

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Marilyn over to you. Yes, we need to do a

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02]: correction

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_02]: It turns out that Suza is the actual quote-unquote

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Restaurant word for wait for it Shire

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Now I had recognized as I thought about it. It sounded familiar

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I realized that what confused me was that they put the T on the end

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Which is the definite article? So Suza is Shire Suzaat is the Shire

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_04]: It's Suza dash T, right? That's how you spell it. I

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure that it includes a dash. Oh, that's what I that's what I saw online maybe somewhere

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe somewhere they do it that way just to make it clear that this is so if you actually say the Suzaat

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Then you're saying the the Shire which yeah, okay fine. Whatever

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Said that the western language. This is part. I just want to say good

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Why do we have Western in rune at this point?

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's a common tongue

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean it's a common speech wherever you were and since the hobbits were all wandering and we thought it came from

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It does but remember hobbits are connected with humans and the stores initially were not in turn

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_02]: They were you know, they wandered there from the same rough location

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_02]: That the Harfoots are in now

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_02]: This is all due to Tolkien's frame narrative concept that he is translating

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_08]: So there and just can you define frame narrative, right?

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_02]: His frame narratives that he is translating a manuscript that he found

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_02]: That was written in this language called Western or common speech

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_02]: But he made it up. He made it all up. He made it all up including the languages that it's being translated from

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_02]: The Western language is primarily based upon adonaiic words and it became the common speech

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_02]: By and large because it was the speech of new menor and after certain events new in orians were more

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_02]: prevalent in this region

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_02]: But if you look in the Tolkien Gateway, you'll see the following

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Tolkien gave us very few actual restaurant words

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_02]: But it happens that the word for Hobbit is one of those he did provide in Western the word for Hobbit was kuduk

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_02]: The older word which Tolkien translates as whole blitta

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Was kuddukan

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Which we are told meant whole dweller

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_02]: In the Western plural ending was probably I N. So if kuduk is Hobbit then kudukin means hobbits. So

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_02]: He translated some of the words into what we would recognize as English, but not all of them

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So if he was going to use the actual restaurant word for hobbits

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Then he should also use all the other Western words Tolkien does give us the Shire is Suza

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Rivendell is carningle and Samwise Gamgee is actually Banazir Galbasi

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Or ban for short. Okay

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_02]: The problem of course is that the vast majority of names in Tolkien's legendarium are never translated into quote-unquote actual restaurant

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So it would be inconsistent to use the half dozen or more terms that he does give us so

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_02]: This is actually fairly typical of

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Manuscript translation anyway, this is Tolkien the scholar bringing his scholarly experience

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_02]: into this world that he is creating and

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_02]: as I said before I had a vague notion that I had seen the word somewhere before and I wish I had followed up on

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_02]: it right away, but

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Some of you did and told us and thank you very much for that

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I dug in and found that little bit more to great firm

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_04]: We now know

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_04]: We all know no, it's good though. I did not know that word

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_04]: I did not know that that was a word for Shire. So thank you everyone for

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Bringing that to our attention. You want to talk about the barrow downs quick? Yes

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Another correction to make the barrow downs were actually built in the first age

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_02]: They were made by the ancestors of the Aedine during part of their long migration from the east to the west

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Tolkien Gateway tells us in the late first stage the ancestors of the Aedine built many of the barrows in the barrow downs

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Before they migrated west to Valerian

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_02]: In the second age many men that were descended from the ancestors of the Aedine so the time of the rings of power series

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Primarily from the folk of Béor and partly from the folk of Hador living near Lake Evendim in the northern downs

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_02]: In the weather hills and in the land in between so Béor and Hador are two of the three founders of the three

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Friendly houses of men if you want to put it that way in the Silmarillion

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_02]: It is not known if these humans had lived as far south as the barrow downs at that time

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_02]: i.e. the second age during the dark years men who were related to the Dunlendings which are folk

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_02]: roughly between Gondor and

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_02]: The southern edges of Eriador had migrated from the valleys of the white mountains to the empty lands as far north as the barrow downs

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So there are lots of humans wandering around here now some people quibble with or quarrel with the fact of

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, yes, sure. There may have been barrows. There may have been bodies but this

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_02]: animation of spirits

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Of the dead bodies

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_02]: You'll be we know that the witch king did it in the third age and so there is no witch king yet well

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_02]: To my mind sauron did it in the second age. I mean, this is something that the show seems to be giving us

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_02]: With that marvelous visual image of the explosion of the volcano and the tendrils of dark creeping northwards

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, yes, they gave us a very visceral physical

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Reaction to that in the damage to khazad-dum in an earlier episode

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think they're also telling us these tendrils are not just earthquake vibrations

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they are sauron's power reaching out

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_02]: To all kinds of nasty beasties all over the place

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_08]: Right and when you see the nameless thing the the mud skipper thing in the previous episode

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Right and we'll see something in this episode tonight too when we get to it

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Which I also think simile had been awakened by

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_02]: sauron's calling so I I have no problems with the idea that

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_02]: He in this process woke up

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_02]: The actual spirits of the dead men

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Who were buried in these tubes because the showmeners have said something about

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_02]: In our show the barrowites are inhabited by the original spirits who were unwilling to be doing what they were doing

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So you could have these as being first age

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_02]: leaders

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Who are suddenly being forced into this?

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_08]: the horrible behavior without you know

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_08]: Since i'm, you know not as as steeped in the in the lore and I don't know much about how the witch king did the

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_08]: You know witchy king things and all that

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_08]: my head cannon based on what they gave us on the television show and the lines of dialogue was

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, and then the movement of sauron and all that kind of stuff was oh

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_08]: he blew up the bridge and then went and

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_08]: maybe

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_08]: You know what was the most simple logical path if somebody had to you know backtrack around

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_08]: He just woke up those barrows, you know

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_08]: Just enchanted those uh those dead bodies right and not the whole thing and not all the witch king stuff

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_08]: But he is setting a trap. Uh, you know specifically for

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_08]: messengers coming from uh

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_08]: linden and um, you know and and anyone else trying to get to a reggion so to me it's

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_08]: Totally fine in from a show creation

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_08]: It works it doesn't break anything

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And at this point, of course, we can't have a witch king until we have the nine rings

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_08]: There you go. So yeah

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_08]: Cool. All right

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_08]: great

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, it's it's sometimes it's hard to it's a moving target

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, uh trying to track these shows and pick up all the details on that kind of stuff

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_08]: And that's kind of too where we rely on listeners

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_08]: So, you know if you've got lore that you want to make sure what we're updated on or observations that you know

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_08]: We might not have made, you know, send them in but it's totally helpful. So

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So who's going to talk about the closing music?

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_08]: I haven't really listened to the music much more john. Did you go we talked about it in the in our feedback a little bit

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_04]: You know what i'm gonna send people there. I'm gonna say we liked the music those of us who listened

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_08]: and this is the um rufus rainwright's

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_08]: Song old tom bombadil at the end of episode four, uh, but we did talk pretty

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Several minutes about rufus winwright and the song

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_04]: So, uh, yeah check out the feedback episode if you want to hear more conversation on that right here john

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Correct. Oh, I had a gaffe

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_04]: A I had to correct myself real quick epic. Yeah

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_04]: wikipedia saved my

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_08]: But

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_08]: It's good at that sort of thing, isn't it

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_08]: Cool. I think we're all wrapped up with our errata and other front matter. So we are ready for a scene by scene breakdown

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_04]: All right. Well before that we're gonna take a quick break

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_04]: And we're back

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_04]: All right. So scene by scene breakdown. We start off with a new sun shaft

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Doren the third wears one of seven rings forged by kilobrimbor and saran

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Narvi and doran four have trouble finding a new sunlight shaft

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_04]: So doran three tells them to dig into a support shaft when they refuse

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_04]: The king digs it himself allowing light into casa doom

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_04]: The king warns his son to listen to him next time and the kingdom celebrates

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_08]: so

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_08]: this um

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_08]: Opening shot of the mountains and the sort of flowing it's very jacksonian

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_08]: And you know, we've talked a lot about the visual

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_08]: Style that they're taking from the show and again, it was just one of those ones that really struck me which

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_08]: To me, it's fine. I think it because it's it's providing a visual continuity across

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_08]: What we have in terms of movies and television shows

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and they also had the distinguishing features of the

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_02]: The large statues above and and the openings of the shafts

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_02]: You know which we saw in earlier episodes which were a wonderful explanation for how they brought the light down in so

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_08]: And then we get this cross fading of the stone mountain into the ring

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, and then doran's hand reaching to to get the ring

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_08]: And the the interesting thing about that that cross fade that just dissolved from one, you know shot to the other

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_08]: That's the easy part

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_08]: The part of of having durin's hand reach out to that ring and pick it up

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_08]: That was actually that's actually a lot more technically challenging than you would think it would be

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_08]: And it is flawless. It is spot on

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_08]: And I was just really impressed with the craft and the care that they took with this whole set up shot

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_08]: And we do this a couple of other times. There's a great shot with uh, disa and durin later

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_08]: um it just

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_08]: It it the way that durin the third's hand reaches to that ring also really

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Calls back to the scene on the mountainside of the jackson movie with boramir and the the ring falling into the snow

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_08]: And again just really smart visual

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_08]: Setups and and using the language that we already have established and then doing their own thing with it. So super impressive

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I found myself wondering if the blue ring was specifically calling to him in particular

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Of the of the of the seven why that one right?

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and just the strong emphasis on it visually seemed to emphasize the possibility that

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, this one's for you durin the third. Well, how do the rings speak parcel tongue?

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_04]: What said why did the ring speak parcel tongue from harry potter? Is that what that is?

[00:33:01] No

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Watch it, you know when the snakes talk

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_04]: So they're doing seven horcruxes. Is that what you're saying? I guess so

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_04]: All right

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we could talk all day about how the horcruxes are like a direct lift from the ring

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_02]: From lord of the rings, but yes and no I I have a bone to pick with that. All right

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_04]: All right, that's that's not this series. So yeah, I don't I don't know if we're gonna be doing a harry potter series

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Anytime soon. Yeah, no

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, yeah, maybe we'll talk about horcruxes one day as a that would be a fun podcast

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Like we we compare the different like infused objects from different series and like how they how they compare anyway

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_04]: all right

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I I found the notion that king durin was going to

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Douse the mountain with this ring that had just come to him. I mean hubris much

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, he seems to have a lot more energy

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_02]: but

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_02]: The notion that he has this confidence to dig into a foundational wall

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and he's got a little roid rage, you know, he feels stronger and he's like, ah, give me the pick. Yes

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_02]: He definitely seems to me to be more energetic. Yeah

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_02]: digging into a foundation

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you know the metaphor for that

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_02]: You're weakening

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_02]: That which is supposed to protect you from enemy forces and you're making yourself vulnerable

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So I mean you could argue all right, but without the sunlight, you know, they're running out of food in three months

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_04]: So right, you know project management bad choice, you know pros and cons

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Well leader rings the lord of the rings is fundamentally a story about project management

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, is that it? Okay. Okay, right. Yeah, because he's on a giant timeline

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_08]: He's got milestones to to meet, you know your frodo i'm thinking of frodo getting across, you know

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_02]: What's what's that sound i'm hearing all the way from oxford?

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_02]: It's the sound of something underground rolling over and over and over

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_10]: Flip flip flip flip. Oh boy

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_04]: I do I do like that doran gets like completely

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Doran the fourth, sorry young doran the young girl say doran the younger

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_04]: It gets completely out of his mind immediately right? He's like don't do it. Don't do it

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_04]: He's just shouting at his dad. He doesn't doesn't go like hey, maybe that's not the best idea

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_04]: He just goes from zero to ten very quickly and yeah, well because dwarf come on

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but I wonder if it because son of doran I wonder if it lessens the impact of the statement though

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_04]: You know the fact that he doesn't approach it with some kind of like hey, you know

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_04]: i'm a little concerned about this and

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_04]: But at the same time he's running towards him with an axe. I guess maybe I would be panic too

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_08]: He's he's starting to see his father suddenly being

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_08]: More energetic than he has been because we see later a scene where he has the the ring off. He's a little bit

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh confused and and less energetic, right?

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_08]: And and that his father would suddenly want to start digging who has been up to this point

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Cautious about their digging and where they dig and how much they dig because we also get that line later

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_08]: Who set these you know for these uh, these regulations. Oh you did. Oh well

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_08]: um, so I think during the fourth is

[00:36:15] Because

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_08]: I I would say he's a little bit alarmed because his father's acting

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_08]: Pretty weird more than a little yeah

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Right and uh, you know kingdoms do thrive on some kind of stability. Yeah, and that's a lot of why

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Monarchies prevail is that people just want some kind of predictability. Yeah to their lives, right?

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_04]: So when you get a mad king in the game of thrones universe and when you get

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_04]: A king who perhaps is taxing at 100 in this universe

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I think people are gonna start to go, huh?

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know about this. Yeah a little strange

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_08]: a little strange I I do have to say though peter mullen as during the third is

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_08]: Brilliant. Oh man. I I was he hasn't caught my you know

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_08]: I up until this point but this episode i'm just so impressed with what he's finally doing here

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_08]: And I love the line of give me your axe which is a great contrast to

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh a line of you know, and you have my axe, right? Right, right

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_08]: It's demanding rather than offering. Yeah point counterpoint there. Yeah, so wasn't he in westworld 2?

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, he was that that was a great role too when he had to play like robot version of him. Yep

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_08]: Like super crazy. Oh anyway, well, it's not

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_04]: For a canceled show we'd i'd recommend you watch it, but you can't watch it anymore

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_04]: So I don't think spoilers matter anymore, right? They ripped it from hbo. It's not you can't even stream it anymore

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_04]: It's annoying when they do that stuff. Yeah, seriously

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_08]: the the last thing for me on this scene though is the

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_08]: Contrasting light on during the fourth's face

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_08]: When the light is the outer the sunlight is, you know getting on him and everything else is in shadow

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_08]: but that that daylight that bright blue daylight is

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_08]: just perfectly they they

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_08]: Um

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_08]: There's a lot of problems with the darkness and visibility this season

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_08]: So overall i've heard other people complaining about it too even on the broadcast ones. It's not just screeners

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, but that was such a clear shot and that daylight just felt so

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_08]: refreshing and strong and healthy and it was just

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_08]: beautifully visual visually well done on this whole scene

[00:38:28] Yeah

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_02]: He has a speech later on about

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Being chained to the sun, but I don't know if you want me to save that we'll get that we'll get there

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_04]: I think we'll get there. Yeah

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_04]: All right. Why don't we go to anatar?

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_04]: I almost call this anatar's

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_04]: a lover spurned

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Because he was just really cold and nasty right he was just really like

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't even talk to you kella brenvor

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_04]: It

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Um narvi and kella brenvor unveiled the doors of durin inscribed using a filled in and unbreachable without a password

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Only known to friends might I add

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Sauron acts coldly toward kila brenvor in an attempt to manipulate him into forging rings for men

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Sauron says he fears numenor and hopes rings will help he turned he uses a r and deal

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_04]: To or and baron as examples of men who were worthy of rings, but kila brenvor

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Gets scared by anatar's new idea of nine rings anatar says he will make the nine rings himself

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_08]: So the doors of durin

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, that was a lovely moment. Did you do you guys feel like they got they handled this right?

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Could have had a little bit more shish

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_04]: It felt like it came and went real quick. Yeah, I did that's true agreed

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's almost just though they they recognize we can't not do this

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_02]: They'll be screaming at us in the streets

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh fine. We'll do the doors of durin right? Let's let's do this and then get back to our plot line

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_04]: It was a begrudging plot line

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_08]: I kind of been expecting it and or looking for it like okay

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_08]: Is it gonna happen how is it all this stuff and then it was there I was like, oh cool

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_08]: I was I was pretty excited

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh by it so yeah as soon as kila brenvor made it filled in I was like, okay

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we're gonna get it this season. Yes, that's that was my feeling also

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I still would love to see them actually hung in place before you know, right all hell breaks loose

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Which is coming closer and closer, right? Right?

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_04]: I think maybe because it was in the middle of kind of a tense plot line

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_04]: It took away from a little bit of the celebration of it

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Right because immediately anna natar's

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Opposition to it kind of put a damper on everything anna tar stomps his foot and goes to the other room

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_08]: So he gets his pouty face on I think that's a really interesting

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_08]: place for a conversation too because

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_08]: Was anna tar being unhappy?

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_08]: As a ruse to pull kella brenbor in or is it

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Is it true also that?

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_08]: He's worried because he's seeing the alliance, you know a potential alliance

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Forming and a friendship forming between the dwarves and the elves that he didn't want to have happen

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_08]: So I was trying to parse out like what is his coldness?

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_08]: And and and is it also true that he was like, hmm

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_08]: How do I get nine for the humans because they're the most corruptible?

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_08]: So like I really want to get my claws into them

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_08]: So I I thought it was just a very it's there's multiple levels going on there with anna tar's

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly coldness. Yeah, I think it's all the above. Okay. I mean it's it's just sort of the basic, you know

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, he's not completely under my control and in fact

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_02]: You know the the line that he calibrated says we mustn't allow our reach to exceed our grasp

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_02]: um

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's the point what he's at at that point

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think that's also when he realizes that he's now riding the tiger

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_05]: right

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, he's he's never the wool has never completely pulled over his eyes. He knows that there's something

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Odd going on

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And he keeps driving forward in his desire

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_02]: To do great things

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, and kelly bimbr calls anna tar out for a game playing. Yes. He does

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, he does which I find fascinating because initially, you know, he was kneeling down to this dude now

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_02]: it's like no you can't do that, but

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I still don't really know and i'm not clear on what it is that kelly bimbr has that anna tar doesn't have

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_04]: He well he's making it sound to figure out how to get the myth role to balance right?

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Like it does seem like in this episode we get the answer of like he cannot figure out how to get this balance

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Right

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_04]: by himself

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Which again it surprises me because not only is he a maya but he's also a very knowledgeable

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Forge person, I mean he studied with aulé and so it just it's odd to me that there could be any knowledge

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like when he came in with kelly bimbr back when he was just helping and saying oh well in my country we use alloys

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm and there it was that the knowledge imbalance was completely reversed because of course kelly bimbr would have heard of alloys

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_02]: By this time in his career. Come on

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So it it's just odd to me somehow isn't it true though that

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_08]: Part of what?

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_08]: attracted morgoth

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_08]: To the silmarils

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_08]: Was the fact that he couldn't create those

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_02]: That's an interesting idea that's not one i've heard remind me the the creator is it feanor who's the

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, grandfather else created but just that one dude. He had the talent

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_08]: Nobody else had the talent to do it and other people tried, you know have probably tried to achieve that greatness

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, so whatever

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_08]: kelly bimbr has

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_08]: as a natural artist and an

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_08]: Artisan and a craftsman of this sort of most disciplined and highest order

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_08]: Just like you know a musician. Yeah, I might be able to you know, play a tune on a fiddle

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_08]: And you know have folks kick up a jig but you know to sit first chair at you know

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_08]: London or something like that

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_08]: That's something special and and yeah, I mean I mean granted morgoth is was even more powerful than sauron

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_08]: But morgoth couldn't create anything or like the silmarils. So

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_08]: It's there's something unique in the creation there. Yeah, that is a good point

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And the other thing that I thought was perhaps it was simply that anna thought wants to be sure that kelly bimbr takes part in

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_02]: the making of the rings

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_02]: In the hopes that he can further corrupt kelly bimbr and maybe even win him over to the side

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_04]: So let me let me posit a theory here

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Anatar sauron is following the denis system from it's always sunny in philadelphia

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Now this sounds silly, but i've sent you both an image in the chat in discord

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, that i'd like you to look at now now the denis system for some background is a system created by one of the main

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Characters denis. They're all awful people in the show. That's the whole joke of the show

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_04]: but this guy he is just constantly trying to

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Manipulate women into sleeping with him and and he's just terrible about it and he says to his friends

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_04]: He said look this system is my lord proof system to make sure that a woman will always crave your attention

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that anatar is doing this to kelly bimbr so here are here are the steps ready

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Despicable me right there ready. It's demonstrate value

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Engage physically, you know forge rings. Let's say that

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Nurture dependence neglect emotionally. That's where we're at now

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, inspire hope that's later in the episode then separate entirely. Will we get there? I don't know

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I think so because we've seen some flash for you know, some clips in the you know of what's coming

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, even at the end of this episode, we know what's coming

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I think anatar is also spending far too much time with myrdania

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's that's getting me a little nervous for myrdania sake anatar wants to separate

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Kelo bimbr from any allies. He wants to isolate him emotionally. Oh, yeah, it's wholly dependent on anatar

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_04]: That is why anatar is following the foolproof dentist system

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely, I think you are spot on on this one john and he's already starting to play good cop to kelly bimbr's bad cop

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, what came out from kelly bimbr's own worry and fear and guilt over? Oh dear. I didn't do it perfectly

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Something that I really love about

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Charlie vickers performance and the writing behind anatar is just how

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, he's playing kelly bimbr right he never and how well he plays myrdania too like how well he's playing everybody he's

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_04]: He's not ever explicitly saying something

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_04]: He's leading them to water right? He's saying later in the episode. He goes

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll have to tell the high king

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Right, and then he pauses and he goes or I guess we could plunge a head forward

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Like as if it's an afterthought as if he's disappointed to hear that

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's it's beautifully done and even in this I mean he's he's pulling on all the hard strings right ar and deal

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Tua or barren these are the heroic men of the first days

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_04]: although I don't know if I'd use ar and deal as an example of men because he kind of

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Not really use more elf. He's I I think of him more as an elf than a man even though he's both

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_09]: Yep. Yep

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_04]: But two are in barren great examples, you know

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_04]: I I actually think touring would have been a better example, but uh, no

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_04]: I know he's got moral issues, but I yeah. All right. You're right. You're right. I back I back out to my comment

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_08]: I think you need to post that picture in the discord or the that would be great

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_04]: The guide i'll put it in the guide under uh under the uh, anatar grows cold. Perfect

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think that'll be fun

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_08]: I love too this construction of the three times three times three sort of thing

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, you know sure our third forging we need nine rings

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_08]: You know bring balance all this kind of stuff and so it's the

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_08]: The poetry and the rhyming of of all of this stuff it it um

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_08]: And that he's like well, okay fine. I'm just going to use your forge. Thanks very much and your staff

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_08]: Also, thanks very much and make my own rings. So yeah, and he's just knowing

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_08]: Knowing that kelly bimmore cannot will not ultimately be able to stay away

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And he almost says but this is what you have to do and then looks at and the thought stops, right?

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_02]: But the number the the numerology of nine is is

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Referred to in a number of different systems and I think in some possibly medieval christianity writings

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_02]: The same thing that he says the three times three is you know, the further perfection of the numbers

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_08]: So that's right. That's very much in keeping and some nice, uh foreshadowing here for numinor

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_08]: Numinor is fractured, you know lorian rule and I fear numinor

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_08]: So they did a good job from the script standpoint of setting up what's going to come

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_08]: That we're going to see on screen this very episode. So that was very smart strategically of the of the writers

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_02]: it's also very lore based it's very lore based because

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Just like his former master morgoth

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_02]: He fears numinor and he hates it. Mm right. It's a true statement, right?

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly exactly. It's true, but not in the way he's portraying it

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, this is what's so incredibly insidious and evil about him. Exactly and it's beautiful. We love it

[00:49:56] [SPEAKER_02]: It's an amazing accomplishment

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Shall we go there?

[00:50:00] [SPEAKER_04]: All right. So fara's own and kemon is the next scene fara's own looks toward tol erisaia

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And laments the mortality of men kemon encourages his father to treat the scepter as enough

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_04]: and to reshape numinor

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Fara's own tells his son that his mother prophesied that kemon would meet an ill end

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_04]: He promises to tell his son what she said if he succeeds in his new task

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_08]: So this had some lore density involved here this tower metal tarma

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_08]: The doom of man is referred to here. There's it was kind of packed in a little bit

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_08]: I guess you're right. There was more than I gave it credit for yeah, because you I I think probably for you

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_08]: And this isn't this isn't a knock. It's just that you're like, oh of course, obviously these are all right

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_08]: Where i'm like, oh yeah, oh metal tarma. Oh, what's this tower rate?

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_04]: What was that? What's erisaia? You co-hosted a whole podcast about this stuff. It was two years ago

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_08]: We've put out how many podcasts since we did that I think we're up to like 345. Yeah

[00:51:07] Yeah

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's interesting that he's reinterpreted the tower in erisaia as something to taunt humans with the knowledge that they will die

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_02]: So good when in point of fact it was so that

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Newman all numinorians at that point

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Could look out to the west to their friends the elves

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And that from time to time the elves would sail to numinor and the western harbor because that was the closest one

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_02]: to bring gifts and knowledge and

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_02]: You know to maintain that connection

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And now it's just been flipped entirely on its head. So good

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_08]: Like so so really good and and that's what happens over

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_08]: The course of time, you know as as we're affected by things and we affect things we lose the meanings of things

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_08]: So, you know

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_08]: What does the statue of liberty really mean or how did it really come like now?

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_08]: It's just this thing in new york that you go to and you see oh there's a statue of liberty

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, it's smaller than I thought it was going to be

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, you know and oh you can take a boat around to it or whatever but you know this idea of liberty and

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_08]: Egalité and you know all of these concepts that are so deeply embedded in it

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_08]: They're just kind of like huh?

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_08]: And then who knows one day, you know, it might end up on a on a beach

[00:52:22] [SPEAKER_08]: In a world that's wracked, you know, that's no longer ruled by human beings covered in sand covered in sand, you know

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_08]: So so I I was just wondering too just for some folks

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_08]: You know if there's if we need a little lore check here on this tower and metal tarma

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_04]: So metal tarma is the holy mountain of the new menorians

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_04]: It is both a shrine and a mountain and it is where the king would go three times a year or the queen because

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Numenor has historically had both kings and queens

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, and the ruler of numenor would go three times a year to pay tribute to the ballar and the eagles would come roost

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_04]: To say hey good job, you know proud dad moment for man way

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_04]: and

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Essentially, it's been neglected

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_04]: For some time since the new menorians started turning against

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_04]: We we they call it the elvish ways in the show. It's really the ways of the ballar. That's really

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_04]: The ways of the faithful is what they call it and yeah, we finally get that term in this episode so I can say it

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Yay. Yeah, isn't that great?

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_04]: but um

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it is it is a shrine and a mountain and it is the highest point in numenor. I believe

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_08]: And what's this tower?

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I think they're talking about um

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_04]: They said white tower. Yeah. So yeah the tower on tolera say that that is the the lonely aisle

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so it's another island separate. Yeah from yeah. Yeah, is it the lonely aisle? Is that the translation maryland?

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. Yes

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And you can just barely see it from the highest

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Parts of numenor which would include the metal tarma. So you have these contrasting towers

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_02]: You have the the tower that was built by the elves on tolera say and you have the natural tower of mental tarma

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, okay. Cool. Okay. So here's here's the fun lore bit is that when the elves went to valinor

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_04]: uh

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_04]: umo who is the

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_04]: water water

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_04]: vala

[00:54:18] [SPEAKER_04]: He breaks off a piece of

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_04]: valerian

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_04]: into an island

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_04]: And he

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Uses the island as a ferry to get the elves to valinor. Oh, I remember this and they're happy there

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_04]: So he just leaves the island parked off the coast of alinor and that becomes tolera say, okay

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And osse was particularly happy osse being a maya who is pledged to ulmo

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_02]: But he really

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_02]: He kind of fell in love with the talari and the the sea dwelling elves and he was very sad when they were going to leave

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_02]: The larian and so

[00:54:51] [SPEAKER_02]: This was a nice compromise as well that you know, you still have this island and they can still

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Be an island people and yet also go to valinor when they want to see their kin they parted from

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_08]: Right, and then we get this uh concept of the doom of man

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, yeah

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_08]: Which is which you know, um, you can really see faraz own chewing on this. He's like, oh i'm really this really

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_08]: Gulls me, you know and i'm gonna right i'm gonna use this to to wield political power

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_08]: That we don't know where we go when we die

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And the original uh form of it was the gift of luetard to men

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_02]: For humans as I prefer to say but uh, right they

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_02]: It's changed so much over time and this is another sign of how the new minoreans have changed and fallen off

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Of the old ways encouraged no doubt by morgoth and all of his machinations over time

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_02]: uh

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Installing fear of what happens when you die

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Whereas initially it was actually a gift that the the elves would envy because it means they can leave the circles of the world humans

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Whereas the elves are bound to the circles of the world, even if they're reduced entirely to their fea

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_02]: They still can't go anywhere else they just have to hang around until

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_08]: The end and then they don't know what's gonna happen. Right? What's it? What is it sidereal longevity?

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_04]: What's the serial longevity? Yeah serial longevity like a serial killer, you know, just have fun with it

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_02]: But sidereal too because they love the stars so that works

[00:56:32] [SPEAKER_08]: Cool there you go

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_08]: And I I also like this idea that kemon even though we know that he is uh,

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_08]: The most despicable of characters so far on this show but this idea that you know

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_08]: What is

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_08]: A very human concept a very, you know, uh race of men concept which is you know

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_08]: It is what you make of it. So reach out and mold these things and so you have the scepter

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_08]: Use it the age of man is upon us now. Yeah. Yeah, and uh, but then

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_08]: Farizone's manipulation man, I you know if you think anatar is bad farizone

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_08]: Who?

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_08]: Boy does he pull a

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Really really bad twist on his son here. This is like evil evil stuff

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I just I really couldn't understand it

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_02]: You know because on the one hand it looks like all of a sudden kemon has risen in his father's estimation so much

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_02]: You know

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_02]: He's wearing these clothes and he's with his father alone and he's daring to give his father advice

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_02]: About you know, let the scepter be enough and look at all the toys you have to play with now

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, you can have a lot of fun

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I suppose he also in the back of his mind has the calculus of yeah, when you're gone old man, it's my turn

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Though of course you smart there's always two to that

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_02]: The master and the apprentice, yeah

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, and um

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, I think it's really showing us this narcissistic

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_08]: Quality that farizone has sure and he's cunning that you know

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, you know you're rising up but you're never in in that whole thing of like you're never going to be good enough

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_08]: You're never going to and so you're always going to come back for more and you're always going to push it

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_08]: And you're always going to go to the extra degree

[00:58:22] [SPEAKER_08]: And it's interesting now that i'm saying this too

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Because that's not dissimilar to what's happening in kelly mrib moore's

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_08]: Forge at the end of this where he said you guys aren't good enough, right? You know, you got to bring it up and um

[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_08]: That can be there. There are ways in which that can be healthy and then there's ways that it can be very unhealthy

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh in both physically and psychologically

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Definitely. Yeah agreed

[00:58:52] [SPEAKER_04]: So let's go on to the new menorian prophecies with elendil and also i'll direct you to the

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Discord channel where I have a new image for you

[00:59:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_04]: It is a recreation of the denna system with anatar's head

[00:59:09] on it

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_08]: That's a good tick tock. Uh john, you got to put that out. Yeah, I will I will actually bargo

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll get that one out. Yeah

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_04]: For sure. All right, so new menorian prophecies elendil tries to hype up meryl telling her she opened him back up to the old ways

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_04]: of the faithful

[00:59:29] [SPEAKER_04]: When she asks what he saw in the palantir

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_04]: He says he saw himself lost riding from the city to an unknown destination

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_04]: meryl says perhaps new menor's history changed and that farisone should be king to avoid their home's downfall

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_04]: She commands elendil to remain calm and to allow events to continue

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_08]: So the uh another great opening scene here where uh, we have this tilted camera

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_08]: uh sort of from this high up vantage point which

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_08]: Gives us a feeling of unease and things are out of whack. So we come into the scene already feeling

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Ill at ease and then we have this very

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_08]: discomforting conversation

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_08]: uh where things are are strange and weird and we're not really sure what's going on and

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_08]: You know my queen saying weird things and what am I supposed to do with this stuff? And

[01:00:28] [SPEAKER_02]: This is not unlike the the camera angles for the conversation between galadriel and andar

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_02]: In the barn in season one and there's a name for that camera angle and i'm not remembering. I think it starts with a k

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_02]: You know

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_04]: I I don't want to talk about real world politics

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I do think that there is something to be said about

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_04]: The way that when you are trying to do the right thing you are usually playing by the rules

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_04]: And those who are trying to do the wrong thing do not play by the rules and it's really hard to combat that

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_04]: and so

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_04]: meryl is really trying to do the right thing and she's like just do your duty

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And and just keep it going just maybe this is the right path i'm not she's has no ego about it, right?

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_04]: She says whatever is good for new menor. I am all for I want the island to survive

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_04]: I want my people to survive. It doesn't matter if I have the scepter

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_04]: and

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_04]: That's a really beautiful moment and it's a really beautiful contrast to everything else that happens in the episode

[01:01:30] [SPEAKER_04]: On the other side on the king's side. So we've got two factions now

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_04]: We've got the faithful and the king's men and so if you look at the show guide after the embargo has

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Lifted I will have sorted the new menorians in both where I bet that was exciting

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I haven't done it yet, but it will it will be exciting right? It will be exciting

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_04]: It will yeah exciting. I've had mannish sub faction

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Just sitting there with no entries

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_04]: For the entire season and i've been waiting for this moment. That's yes. Yes. Yeah

[01:02:03] [SPEAKER_04]: There was a reason I had that field in the in the whole thing

[01:02:07] [SPEAKER_08]: I think I messaged you too about that. I was like wait, why do we have this here?

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Don't do that. Don't just leave that leave that leave it leave it

[01:02:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Now you know there's a plan

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_08]: So it seems when in his vision in the in the re

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_08]: Visioning of his vision. It seemed like the city might be a bit of a smoking ruin

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_08]: Or there seems to be smoke coming off the roof off the city

[01:02:31] [SPEAKER_08]: And fire didn't look great. Yeah

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, this this idea too that miriel, uh talks about which is not every battle must be fought to be won

[01:02:47] [SPEAKER_08]: That's one of these fire

[01:02:49] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, one of the the lines that really caught me this episode and it made me sort of think two things

[01:02:58] [SPEAKER_08]: uh one was

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_08]: That

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_08]: Sometimes it's okay for things not to be complete

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_08]: and then the other one was is kind of about spiritual struggles because she was telling him to be calm in the center of

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_08]: all of this and the

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_08]: First part of that which is things that it's okay for things to be not complete makes me think of that line

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_08]: from bombardier that uh tolkien that you talked about in the lore cast that

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_08]: Not all things need to be explained

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_08]: Um that sometimes enigma is a good thing and that is uh,

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_08]: It's something that we as human beings are bad at uh kind of at a species level

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_08]: On an individual level we can do it but on a species level our brains want answers to the patterns

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, we're meaning making machines. We're pattern seeking machines

[01:03:48] [SPEAKER_08]: And when we have enigmas it drives us crazy and we want to answer them

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_08]: That's why we can you know send people to the moon and put people in orbit and you know all of this kind of stuff

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_08]: We are bad at some other things, but you know, we're good at some things

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_08]: And so I just I love this idea that that

[01:04:05] [SPEAKER_08]: It's okay that this fight doesn't have to win with a battle, right?

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_08]: It doesn't have to resolve in a particular way doesn't have to be quote unquote one

[01:04:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Just the um our very ancient

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_02]: formulation is

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_02]: To survive

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_02]: The predators right and the pattern making skills that we have are part of that

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_02]: To be able to recognize patterns and to assign, you know safety and versus danger to them

[01:04:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And if we can't do one or the other that becomes the the anxiety point

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I don't know. Is this is as good as this bad?

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And uh that kind of rolls over into um an awful lot of our lives even to this day

[01:04:52] [SPEAKER_08]: So the other thing that I

[01:04:54] [SPEAKER_08]: This scene made me think about was this idea

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_08]: of uh jihad

[01:04:59] [SPEAKER_08]: and not a

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_08]: jihad in a

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_08]: modern political sense that it has come to mean as a

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_08]: It's like if we say make a xerox copy or or kleenex tissue, right?

[01:05:12] [SPEAKER_08]: It's a word it becomes associated with something and that's not what it was

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_08]: um

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_08]: There's another meaning to jihad which there's there's a the greater jihad and the lesser jihad

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_08]: a lesser jihad is

[01:05:28] [SPEAKER_08]: um debate persuasion sort of you know, the

[01:05:32] [SPEAKER_08]: uh the the art of politics and then of course there's uh, the jihad of the sword or or warfare and that's when you need to defend

[01:05:39] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh your yourself and your community

[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_08]: but the greater jihad is that which is um

[01:05:47] [SPEAKER_08]: Involves the the struggle of your own passions and your own impulses and your own

[01:05:52] [SPEAKER_08]: And again just what we were talking about this this anxiety to solve and answer questions

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_08]: And she's telling him in this scene

[01:06:02] [SPEAKER_08]: Be still

[01:06:04] [SPEAKER_08]: Don't answer the question

[01:06:06] [SPEAKER_08]: Don't pick up the sword

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_08]: Be still at the center of the storm because it's going to be around you

[01:06:14] [SPEAKER_08]: That this thing is going to hold together or fall apart and so the individual here is standing in place of the larger community

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_08]: And if we don't all individually hold stillness or peace or tolerance or whatever

[01:06:28] [SPEAKER_08]: Individually our society can't do it, right? We can't do it. So it starts with an individual sociological change starts

[01:06:35] [SPEAKER_08]: with individual change

[01:06:37] [SPEAKER_08]: and so it just

[01:06:39] [SPEAKER_08]: This scene just like it's such a blink of an eye scene

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_08]: But it is so infused with with meaning and depth and the way she puts her hand on his heart

[01:06:49] [SPEAKER_08]: And she's asking him be still

[01:06:51] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah

[01:06:53] [SPEAKER_08]: Don't lash out

[01:06:54] [SPEAKER_08]: because that's the that's the

[01:06:56] [SPEAKER_08]: That is the tool of your of our enemies here. And if we answer in the same way, then we're going to be doomed

[01:07:03] [SPEAKER_02]: It also is a callback to the previous episode where

[01:07:07] [SPEAKER_02]: The woman walks up and slaps her

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Right, and she hugs her right and asks her to you know, who did you lose? And i'm so sorry and grieves with her

[01:07:18] Yeah

[01:07:20] [SPEAKER_08]: So yeah, this is where again the episode this episode is really firing on some uh on all cylinders for me here

[01:07:26] [SPEAKER_04]: I just want to say to the fbi agent that's tuned in when we talk about jihad in the second week of september

[01:07:32] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, yeah, right

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_04]: We're fine, we're fine we're talking about something else we're okay down here. How are you?

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I actually had a student who was the imam for the for the college. Oh wow

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_02]: muslim

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_02]: As a first-year student he was he was their imam for the college muslim organization and and he told me that very thing

[01:07:54] [SPEAKER_02]: right

[01:07:55] [SPEAKER_02]: um, you know

[01:07:56] [SPEAKER_02]: the personal

[01:07:58] [SPEAKER_02]: work to overcome your limitations and to

[01:08:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Strive to it means striving, you know to reach as as

[01:08:06] [SPEAKER_02]: deeply and well as you can and and he took a class with me and at the end of the class I said well

[01:08:11] [SPEAKER_02]: You have shown me more than anything. I could ever possibly read

[01:08:15] [SPEAKER_02]: The embodiment of that meaning of it. So thank you for being my teacher

[01:08:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you know I I think that's an important point and I don't think we should allow

[01:08:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Bad actors twist beautiful concepts into their own meanings and to let those concepts stick

[01:08:32] [SPEAKER_08]: And so it's it's kind of weirdly fitting that we're talking about it this week. So and this very eve

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_08]: This very eve yes indeed

[01:08:43] [SPEAKER_08]: so yeah, and and I think that's the

[01:08:46] [SPEAKER_08]: That's the thing is is that?

[01:08:48] [SPEAKER_08]: The greater struggle of your own internal passions. It's easy to pick up a sword. It's easy to throw a punch

[01:08:54] [SPEAKER_08]: It's easy to throw a harsh word

[01:08:57] [SPEAKER_08]: It's harder to not do that and to seek

[01:09:01] [SPEAKER_08]: a different answer. Yeah, that doesn't necessarily involve the denigration or

[01:09:07] [SPEAKER_08]: uh, uh death of somebody else which we're gonna see later in the episode

[01:09:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I really think now this conversation they are they are building muriel up to be a christ-like figure

[01:09:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Or from whatever other religious, um

[01:09:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Path you may follow right i'm thinking of her as an obi-wan Kenobi if you strike me down

[01:09:28] [SPEAKER_04]: I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine

[01:09:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Right and I do enjoy that. Do you do you know about this whole obi-wan Kenobi? Uh,

[01:09:39] [SPEAKER_04]: people who have never seen star wars

[01:09:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Generally older people who have never seen star wars have pictures of ewan McGregor in their homes and they think it's jesus

[01:09:48] [SPEAKER_04]: No, really their grandkids come over and they're like

[01:09:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you understand that this is a picture of ewan McGregor as obi-wan Kenobi in the prequels?

[01:09:55] [SPEAKER_04]: He's when he has a long hair

[01:09:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Wow, this is a real thing look it up on tiktok or something

[01:10:02] [SPEAKER_04]: They find pictures that look very christ-like of ewan McGregor in their grandparents homes, sir

[01:10:08] [SPEAKER_04]: All right. All right. Let's go on to

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_04]: captain

[01:10:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Elendiel returns to the shipyards to receive a warning from his daughter arian

[01:10:17] [SPEAKER_04]: There kemon has fired the faithful seaman including

[01:10:23] [SPEAKER_04]: elendiel

[01:10:23] [SPEAKER_04]: When elendiel calmly accepts this

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_04]: valendiel and the other seaman thank him as their captain arian offers the vows for valendiel to get his job back

[01:10:33] [SPEAKER_04]: But he refuses the offer

[01:10:35] [SPEAKER_04]: ferrazone uncovers

[01:10:37] [SPEAKER_04]: the palantir of new menor

[01:10:40] [SPEAKER_08]: How dare you reduce my grief to petty ambition?

[01:10:45] [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, that was such a good line I like shrieked my fist at the screen. I was like yes

[01:10:50] [SPEAKER_08]: That was so good

[01:10:51] [SPEAKER_08]: We don't see much of her but like that line delivered written and delivered and acted was

[01:10:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Perfect. It was great and that scene was just incredibly heartbreaking. This is right remaining child

[01:11:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. Well, he has another one. They've named dropped an arian

[01:11:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, right

[01:11:10] [SPEAKER_04]: The other brother

[01:11:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for all we know an arian is just out of his life. Anyway, yeah, that's true. That's true

[01:11:17] [SPEAKER_08]: But he doesn't have any his children. He doesn't have any of his children with him in his life, right? Exactly

[01:11:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, exactly. He's like he's alone and he's not even being dentists

[01:11:27] [SPEAKER_04]: and um

[01:11:28] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, I it's really sad because she's really following like classic

[01:11:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Patriarchal scripts right of grief has to turn to anger and vengeance when really

[01:11:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Neither of those will help you

[01:11:42] [SPEAKER_04]: healthily grieve

[01:11:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Neither of those will bring you any peace

[01:11:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Instead you should let yourself feel the pain and you should confront your emotions

[01:11:50] [SPEAKER_04]: But it's much easier to feel angry

[01:11:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Than feel sad. Mm-hmm. Yeah

[01:11:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, most assuredly

[01:11:58] [SPEAKER_08]: And I would say it even goes back to

[01:12:03] [SPEAKER_08]: That question of we don't like unresolved things as human beings

[01:12:08] [SPEAKER_08]: And so when we have a death of a loved one

[01:12:12] [SPEAKER_08]: You know that we want to resolve the pain and if it's if it's if it's a death that's caused by someone that we can blame

[01:12:21] [SPEAKER_08]: You know all the more easy to to uh, uh be angry and upset at that person as opposed to just hold the pain

[01:12:29] [SPEAKER_08]: And it can't be you know, some things can't be fixed and you just have to carry them

[01:12:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Right and we will find someone to blame whether or not it makes any sense

[01:12:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely look at the justice if we are of that particular bent

[01:12:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Look at the justice system. It is based on a retributive model rather than a restorative model

[01:12:48] [SPEAKER_04]: It is based on the victim rights movement that uh that cropped up specifically

[01:12:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Not to help victims but to give harsher punishments to perpetrators

[01:12:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it is it is falsely named but it uh, and so I do think that we as a society find it easier

[01:13:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Easier to be vindictive easier to be retributivist than we do

[01:13:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh to restore and that's a it's a big shame and I think we see that here in new minorean

[01:13:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Culture, which is why this scene rings so true, right? Yes

[01:13:19] [SPEAKER_02]: We have less of an emphasis on communal bonds and much more emphasis on individuality

[01:13:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Right, and this is my grief and how dare you call my grief?

[01:13:30] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, right what about your father's grief? It's not like you're the only person in the world who is grieving right?

[01:13:37] [SPEAKER_08]: He's lost a wife. You've lost a mother, you know

[01:13:39] [SPEAKER_02]: You both as far as we know he's lost one son and the other one is estranged and

[01:13:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And the fact that he can let lucid his daughter this way

[01:13:50] [SPEAKER_02]: You know is just indicative of his own frustration and grief coming out and saying, you know

[01:13:55] [SPEAKER_02]: You're gonna find you're standing on seawater

[01:13:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and he's not wrong I still have a hard time imagining how when she became so very powerful

[01:14:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Because it was actually she who said it's by my authority

[01:14:11] [SPEAKER_02]: That this is all happening now when ellenville walks into the middle of the crowd and i'm like say what?

[01:14:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean kemon is standing right at your elbow. Right? How can you say it's by your authority?

[01:14:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, she's wearing that was a little off for me. Okay

[01:14:27] [SPEAKER_08]: She's wearing the thing so yeah

[01:14:28] [SPEAKER_08]: Maybe there's just some stuff that was cut or that they didn't get on screen that that was a little bit more illustrative of

[01:14:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I really wish we had seen maybe there will be a director's cut more of a audience development

[01:14:41] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just every time it seems like she's leapt ahead three steps

[01:14:46] [SPEAKER_08]: It's it's it's jarring too. Yeah, she is a little under baked compared to

[01:14:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I think so, which is too bad because the actor is fantastic as you say the delivery of that line and the

[01:14:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Argument with her father

[01:14:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Pitch perfect. Yeah. Yeah, so give me more

[01:15:03] [SPEAKER_08]: We had her more in season one if I remember right a little bit not much a little bit

[01:15:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, because once they go to once they go to middle earth. She's gone right? She's still a new menor

[01:15:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but her significance has increased so much that I really feel like I want a little bit more. That's fair

[01:15:19] [SPEAKER_08]: Understanding of her process it's in it and I think we talked about this

[01:15:23] [SPEAKER_08]: Was it the last episode or on the maybe not on the feedback?

[01:15:26] [SPEAKER_08]: But I think on episode four where we have rune we have the southlands

[01:15:29] [SPEAKER_08]: We have linden we have a reggaon and new menor like these are a lot of places that we're dealing with in an eight

[01:15:35] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, they are episode

[01:15:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Series season. That's a lot of geography to cover so yeah

[01:15:43] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, I i've been watching rewatching mrs

[01:15:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Davis with my wife lately because I finally can watch it and i'm thinking about an aspect of that show that really applies here and that's

[01:15:53] [SPEAKER_04]: everybody

[01:15:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Everybody wants a quest and who do we get them from right?

[01:15:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, you know mrs

[01:15:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Davis a science quest another very important figure a science quest in that show and I don't want to spoil it for people

[01:16:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Because everyone should still watch it. It was very good and not enough people watched it

[01:16:08] [SPEAKER_02]: My show the year last year, yeah, and we did a fun podcast about it as well

[01:16:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So if that's incentive for you go for it, but look at how many people in grief

[01:16:16] [SPEAKER_04]: I know I did this when I lost my dad

[01:16:19] [SPEAKER_04]: I was constantly looking for like quests and I I say that in you know, a silly

[01:16:24] [SPEAKER_04]: You know a very adventurous sounding word, but you know purpose right?

[01:16:27] [SPEAKER_04]: You look for purpose you look for meaning in the loss you look for

[01:16:30] [SPEAKER_04]: You look for a way to make it right

[01:16:33] [SPEAKER_04]: When you can't

[01:16:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Which is exactly what is yield or is doing exactly has been what a sealed or is doing what a aryan is doing right now

[01:16:41] [SPEAKER_04]: What a lendil is doing I think when he tries to go to mary and say it's this is an injustice

[01:16:46] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll get you your your queenship. Yes

[01:16:49] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a fair point

[01:16:50] [SPEAKER_04]: I I think it's really interesting the way the show explores grief and

[01:16:53] [SPEAKER_04]: I you know

[01:16:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I had a twitter exchange with someone the other day because they listened to our uh, bella cuenta episode from the south

[01:16:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Plays where as which you were on maryland. Yes, and uh, she talked about how she was she was uh, I

[01:17:05] [SPEAKER_04]: I think this was a woman. I could be wrong actually

[01:17:07] [SPEAKER_04]: uh, they talked about um

[01:17:11] [SPEAKER_04]: How it was making them tear up because of the the depictions of grief within the text and so I think

[01:17:15] [SPEAKER_04]: If you're going to nail a concept in Tolkien grief is the one to do first

[01:17:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And wow do they do it in this episode?

[01:17:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Right

[01:17:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm fired up tonight guys. Cool. You know

[01:17:27] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm ready to go

[01:17:29] [SPEAKER_08]: All right. Um last note on this scene

[01:17:32] [SPEAKER_08]: The the palantir the corruption

[01:17:36] [SPEAKER_08]: We're seeing pharaoh's own right. He comes in and he's looking all oh, I gotta get my palantir fix

[01:17:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, and of course we don't get to see what he's seeing right not yet

[01:17:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Not yet

[01:17:48] [SPEAKER_08]: So watch this space and what's that gonna do? Yeah, like for me is uh, i'm not sure all the lore stuff like

[01:17:53] [SPEAKER_08]: Whoa is I don't know if that's

[01:17:56] [SPEAKER_02]: We're completely out of work completely off book, right?

[01:17:58] [SPEAKER_08]: So, but we know that the palantir is a

[01:18:03] [SPEAKER_08]: a potent

[01:18:04] [SPEAKER_08]: object and right and this guy is a potent leader and it's going to

[01:18:10] [SPEAKER_08]: It's gonna affect him. I think

[01:18:14] [SPEAKER_04]: I actually have one more thing on the scene now, which is

[01:18:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Any man who must say I am the king is no king

[01:18:22] [SPEAKER_04]: and when

[01:18:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't remember if arian or kemon said he's not he's not the captain anymore. I think it was kemon. Yeah, it was kemon and

[01:18:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Is and elendil goes he's right and he kind of shrugs it off and he starts walking away

[01:18:36] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's when all his men go. Thank you captain my captain, you know, and i'm just like this is a leader

[01:18:43] [SPEAKER_04]: This is a leader of men

[01:18:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Literally, yeah. Yeah, you know, they're the race of men

[01:18:50] [SPEAKER_02]: tears

[01:18:51] [SPEAKER_04]: But I I think that's such a beautiful moment and it really made me think back to the time when they have like

[01:18:57] [SPEAKER_04]: power

[01:18:57] [SPEAKER_04]: It is is something that you

[01:19:02] [SPEAKER_04]: You have to inhabit in a way that you don't need to assert

[01:19:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think this is why he and muriel are so drawn to one another because they both use this same style of leadership

[01:19:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah

[01:19:14] Yeah

[01:19:16] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you don't slap the queen without serious consequences unless that queen happens to be near. Yeah, right, right. Yep

[01:19:22] [SPEAKER_04]: So kelo bimbo's deceit

[01:19:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Is the next one gilgallad reads kelo bimbo's letter that the forge is shut down

[01:19:29] [SPEAKER_04]: His captains push him to send troops to mordor

[01:19:33] [SPEAKER_04]: He sees visions of a dark lord sauron, but his commander urges him not to risk their kingdom over a ring's visions

[01:19:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So shades of eldrond

[01:19:44] [SPEAKER_02]: What's that shades of eldrond?

[01:19:48] [SPEAKER_08]: so

[01:19:49] [SPEAKER_08]: gil's letter

[01:19:51] [SPEAKER_08]: Gil's letters are not getting in it sounds too mundane

[01:19:54] [SPEAKER_08]: To call them gil. Yeah, exactly gilgallad's letter

[01:19:58] [SPEAKER_08]: They're not letters are not getting in but kelo bimbo's are getting out

[01:20:03] [SPEAKER_08]: That's interesting

[01:20:06] [SPEAKER_08]: Well serves the purposes of a certain anata exactly exactly and I think that's a it's another nice thing

[01:20:12] [SPEAKER_08]: You know in the show

[01:20:15] [SPEAKER_08]: That you know, we get to draw the conclusion like well, wait a minute

[01:20:18] [SPEAKER_08]: You know messages are messages are going one way, but not the other way

[01:20:21] [SPEAKER_08]: What's that about and so I I think that's smart construction on the on the showrunner's part

[01:20:28] [SPEAKER_04]: right

[01:20:29] right

[01:20:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, not a lot to say about the scene. But uh, you know, it's mostly a setup for the the later scene with elrond

[01:20:37] [SPEAKER_08]: Will and this is the one

[01:20:39] [SPEAKER_08]: Episode where we get a vision, but we don't get a lot of pay. We don't get any payoff from that vision

[01:20:44] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, and yeah

[01:20:46] [SPEAKER_08]: So there was a couple of things about the vision that I thought were really interesting one was the way that the rocks were

[01:20:52] [SPEAKER_08]: Shaking and breaking away

[01:20:55] [SPEAKER_08]: It was filmed in a style and in a visual tone that we have not seen

[01:21:00] [SPEAKER_08]: In this show it was really interesting and it really caught my eye and I don't know what it means

[01:21:06] [SPEAKER_08]: And then there's the fish like what's up with the fish it was like a whole

[01:21:11] [SPEAKER_08]: Bunch of you know fish on the sea on on the you know, what sea lake?

[01:21:15] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know what but like, you know gasping for air

[01:21:17] [SPEAKER_08]: And then there was like this weird orc vision of it's eating something or this was the most

[01:21:25] Visually

[01:21:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Like I don't understand anything that's going on in this vision where all the other visions that we've had

[01:21:30] [SPEAKER_08]: Have been pretty straightforward and they've paid them off almost immediately

[01:21:35] [SPEAKER_08]: So this one is like oh big question marks, so i'm really interested to see how this is going to play out

[01:21:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well I have some guesses but that would be spoilery

[01:21:45] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think we'll just have to leave it ambiguous unless john you have anything to say

[01:21:49] [SPEAKER_08]: I thought he's gonna play his little sound clip. Oh, all right then keep your secrets

[01:21:56] [SPEAKER_04]: All right, let's go uh to a quick break when we get back we will talk more Tolkien

[01:22:17] And

[01:22:23] [SPEAKER_04]: We're back

[01:22:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Next up the ring's influence

[01:22:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Disa and doran the younger worry about doran the elder's influence under the ring

[01:22:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Disa tries to buy a tuning crystal and learns about the king's new ring tribute, which is a

[01:22:39] [SPEAKER_04]: 100% tax on every coin spent

[01:22:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Disa drops the crystal and chases it into a cavern where she sings to find the orb

[01:22:49] [SPEAKER_04]: That she hears the balrogs growls and drops the crystal breaking it

[01:22:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Was that the balrog or was that the watcher in the water?

[01:23:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, was it the watcher in the water? I think it was the watcher in the water

[01:23:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Because we get lots of we get lots of splashy tentacle things waving around

[01:23:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Which is not a balrog style to my brow. She hears a growl and sees

[01:23:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Tentacles

[01:23:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, there were no tentacles. All right. I'm just gonna say she hears a growl. How about that?

[01:23:22] [SPEAKER_10]: The water splashed okay. Yeah tentacles are no tentacles the water was splashing so I went back and forth myself at first

[01:23:30] [SPEAKER_08]: I did think it was the watcher in the water and then I

[01:23:34] [SPEAKER_08]: On my second watch and notes in the rest of the episode. I felt more like it's the balrog

[01:23:41] [SPEAKER_08]: So we shall see we shall see this is the one

[01:23:47] [SPEAKER_08]: scene that

[01:23:48] [SPEAKER_08]: stretched my

[01:23:49] [SPEAKER_08]: Credibilize my sense of credibility just a little bit because yeah, what is this chamber that a rock singer?

[01:23:56] [SPEAKER_08]: Who's lived here her whole life. That's right off the central market. She's never known about this place

[01:24:02] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, that was the only thing that I was a little bit, uh dubious about

[01:24:07] [SPEAKER_08]: The mechanic fine I get it. It's all all good. You know, we need to you know, she needs to you know

[01:24:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Encounter, you know what there is to be encountered here and we need to we need that setup. It's all fine

[01:24:20] [SPEAKER_08]: But it was just like the way they did it. I was like, yeah, that's great

[01:24:24] [SPEAKER_02]: We could make the argument that this new chasm opened up as a result of the earthquake

[01:24:30] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah

[01:24:30] [SPEAKER_08]: But that chasm did not look new that that looked like it had because the water the way the water was sitting there

[01:24:36] [SPEAKER_08]: Informed and stuff. Yeah, it did not but

[01:24:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, I hear you. I hear you. I mean

[01:24:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I they've they've added the concept of stone singing so I don't think Tolkien really had to deal with this

[01:24:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I mean the dwarves

[01:24:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you know we see in the third age we see in the lord of the rings

[01:24:56] [SPEAKER_04]: I think we've safely said we're gonna talk spoilers for the lord of the rings itself

[01:25:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you know the dwarves were at some point surprised by the presence of a balrog so I I guess there have to be unknown cavern

[01:25:09] [SPEAKER_08]: John did you have uh minds of mandalore mythasaur?

[01:25:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, it's funny. That's funny. I didn't think about that. But yeah, you're never occurred to me

[01:25:18] [SPEAKER_04]: but of course i'm so deep into this tolkien lore right now that like

[01:25:24] [SPEAKER_04]: My uh other polls are not not happening

[01:25:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's another really important tolkien point here, I think this is in the same section where disa

[01:25:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Says learning to hear the mountain is a gift from aulé refined over a lifetime

[01:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And now the king is simply using a manufactured ring

[01:25:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and this is a perfect example of

[01:25:50] [SPEAKER_02]: um

[01:25:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Tolkien's um

[01:25:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Mortality in the machine thing the machine is something that you make

[01:25:57] [SPEAKER_02]: in order to

[01:25:59] [SPEAKER_02]: overlay and

[01:26:01] [SPEAKER_02]: dominate a natural process

[01:26:04] [SPEAKER_02]: To make it faster better harder, whatever

[01:26:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And so rather than take the lifetime to refine your skills to sing to the mountain

[01:26:12] [SPEAKER_02]: You've got this glittery ring that is definitely a machine and manufactured

[01:26:17] [SPEAKER_02]: You know making it faster

[01:26:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Making it easier right right and something else that he alludes to when he gives his

[01:26:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Pep talk to the masses which I think is coming up. Um

[01:26:31] [SPEAKER_02]: i'll save that

[01:26:32] [SPEAKER_04]: You know for the moment

[01:26:33] [SPEAKER_04]: I I don't wholly agree with tolkien on that because I think tolkien kind of draws an arbitrary line in the sand

[01:26:38] [SPEAKER_04]: It says this level of technology is okay

[01:26:41] [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't I don't agree with him on that, you know, I you know should we eliminate agriculture? That's technology

[01:26:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Should we eliminate forks and knives? That's technology

[01:26:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, I I just I do think that we get a little caught up in like well, this is new

[01:26:55] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's scary and so I know but I see the point he's going forward with rings. I think the idea of things you

[01:27:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Assert power over other things being bad. I like that

[01:27:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and also the the idea of

[01:27:09] [SPEAKER_02]: hastening processes

[01:27:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Making them faster. I mean obviously the the auto short cutting is the case in point short cutting

[01:27:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Bike is technology that makes you faster than walking should that be gotten rid of sure

[01:27:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure. No, no, I hear what you're saying. Yeah, and you know, everybody can parse it however they want to

[01:27:26] but

[01:27:27] [SPEAKER_02]: In you know when you get to decide if something is quote unquote unnatural exactly. I I do think

[01:27:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Many of the things we do are completely

[01:27:35] [SPEAKER_04]: quote unnatural

[01:27:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, if you want to look at it from from a

[01:27:41] [SPEAKER_04]: You know a purist standpoint

[01:27:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Sure, how's our unnatural right they are unnatural we we domesticated those from wild animals

[01:27:50] [SPEAKER_08]: Having a three person conversation over a tri-state area

[01:27:56] [SPEAKER_08]: And then told me what I hated this conversation out around the world around the world. Yeah. Yeah

[01:28:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But it it's the subtext of domination

[01:28:07] [SPEAKER_02]: In any kind of machine

[01:28:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Are we not dominating cows by making them dependent upon us for their nourishment and making it so that they can't

[01:28:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Survive in the wild like they're wild and oh here we go

[01:28:19] [SPEAKER_02]: No, we are if they're not free-range cows. Well, let's let's not

[01:28:23] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just saying I think tolkien he's I got a bone to pick with him on this one

[01:28:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Sure, I got a bone to pick with him

[01:28:28] [SPEAKER_04]: I think he's drawing arbitrary lines and he's kind of being an old man shaking his hands saying when I was a kid

[01:28:33] [SPEAKER_04]: This is the level of technology we had and that was the perfect amount of technology

[01:28:37] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, then we talked the other day too about him being upset about the pace of change and

[01:28:42] [SPEAKER_08]: Cars and bicycles and whatnot. So

[01:28:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah

[01:28:47] [SPEAKER_08]: Anyway, it's all mind-cheft robbery

[01:28:50] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, sorry that was yeah

[01:28:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I I forgot about that line. Yeah, that was a good line. That was a good line

[01:28:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I also like that she basically bullies him into like yeah i'm gonna buy it for this price. So right over it

[01:29:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Right, right one to one ring tribute

[01:29:05] [SPEAKER_08]: Damn durin the third that is a that is some serious, uh,

[01:29:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Tension it took me a minute for that to set in as 100 tax rate. Mm-hmm

[01:29:15] [SPEAKER_08]: It's crazy

[01:29:16] [SPEAKER_08]: Did um, I I the the polymptary looked a little bit

[01:29:22] [SPEAKER_08]: Too much or sorry the polymptary this the the tuning crystal looked a little too polymptary for me

[01:29:27] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know if that's uh, yeah, i'm with you on that. Yeah, i'm with you interesting

[01:29:30] [SPEAKER_04]: No, especially because they are trying to introduce that lore in this with the polymptary and

[01:29:37] [SPEAKER_04]: I I think they should have made that a little like make it angular or something

[01:29:40] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, I think that would be like a tuning cube or a triangle or something. Yeah

[01:29:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah

[01:29:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Perhaps it's a differentiation of power over and power with

[01:29:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, because up to this point you could say disa has had power with him out the stone singers had power with him out

[01:29:57] [SPEAKER_02]: But in his speech king durin says we now have power over earth rock and the destinies of other dwarf realms. Yes

[01:30:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And kaza doom shall never want again

[01:30:11] [SPEAKER_02]: You know and we can you know, some people are tied into the cycles of the sun

[01:30:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we can bring in the light whenever we want. Well, that's a clear

[01:30:20] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a dominating of a natural process which we do all the time because we have lamps

[01:30:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll say it before john does because it's absolutely true

[01:30:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Hey told you did you eat meat?

[01:30:31] [SPEAKER_02]: But if if you listen to that clip again listen to the music

[01:30:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Listen to the treatment that bear gives to the kaza doom

[01:30:41] [SPEAKER_02]: It'll give you the shivers. Okay

[01:30:43] [SPEAKER_08]: It's really really amazing. I think this is that's a really another really good point is the power

[01:30:49] [SPEAKER_08]: Of her power over and it with the doors we're seeing it or it's right there

[01:30:54] [SPEAKER_02]: You can't forget that you have to keep that in mind and we even have the king with a with a bill bow moment

[01:31:01] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, where's the ring? Right? Yeah, where is it? Where is it? Yeah, I thought that was too much

[01:31:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna be honest with you. Well, yeah, I I was really thinking down what is what's the function of this?

[01:31:10] [SPEAKER_08]: We're jumping a little bit ahead. Yeah, so okay. I'm sorry. Yeah. No, no, no, it's fine. I mean it's a natural

[01:31:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Extension of our conversation. Yeah, let why don't we move on to that thing that way we can keep talking

[01:31:20] [SPEAKER_04]: So I call it the council of doran

[01:31:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Instead of elrond. Ah, that's my that's my little that's my little haha moment

[01:31:28] [SPEAKER_04]: doran the elder

[01:31:30] [SPEAKER_04]: calls together

[01:31:32] [SPEAKER_04]: representatives of the other six dwarven lords to offer them rings of power for a price

[01:31:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Doran tells narvi to lift all restrictions on digging to get more gold

[01:31:44] [SPEAKER_04]: He begins to panic when he can't find his ring, but it's on the table near him whispering temptations

[01:31:52] [SPEAKER_04]: joren

[01:31:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Arat during the younger arrives to warn his father of what disa saw and asks him to stop digging

[01:31:59] [SPEAKER_04]: But his father reminds narvi of his orders

[01:32:03] [SPEAKER_04]: The king says he can now see the mountain unlike the stone singers who can only hear the mountain

[01:32:09] [SPEAKER_04]: He insists there is no danger

[01:32:14] [SPEAKER_08]: Again another

[01:32:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Densely packed scene a lot of little stuff that could just go whoop right by

[01:32:20] [SPEAKER_08]: But when we start to unpack it, there is a ton going on here

[01:32:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Why are we valuing sight more than listening david?

[01:32:28] [SPEAKER_08]: This well this goes to the conversation we were just having weren't we about short-cutting processes or yes

[01:32:35] [SPEAKER_08]: you know

[01:32:37] [SPEAKER_08]: And and then I think it also goes into the conversation of power over versus power, you know of or with yeah

[01:32:43] [SPEAKER_08]: And and so this the stone singers

[01:32:48] [SPEAKER_08]: Are not

[01:32:51] [SPEAKER_08]: Efficient in a market capitalist kind of way, right?

[01:32:56] [SPEAKER_08]: They can see and okay

[01:32:58] [SPEAKER_08]: We have some regulations and we got to be careful and you know, whatever

[01:33:01] [SPEAKER_08]: And what is uh during the the third say is but a thimble of

[01:33:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Ocean of of riches that we've taken out right, right

[01:33:12] [SPEAKER_08]: and so and he can see every jewel and and every vein of gold and and everything so that they can really

[01:33:19] [SPEAKER_08]: be

[01:33:21] [SPEAKER_08]: uh

[01:33:21] [SPEAKER_08]: Efficient in their extraction

[01:33:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah

[01:33:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And i'm thinking of what uh prince durin was saying to kelly brimbor when he's describing the change in his father

[01:33:34] [SPEAKER_02]: He never used to be greedy

[01:33:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And that is very consonant with the lore that the one effect that everyone seems to agree

[01:33:43] [SPEAKER_02]: That the dwarven rings had on the dwarf lords was it inflamed a desire for gold

[01:33:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

[01:33:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and and they were said to uh

[01:33:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Be the the uh, and this is a legend so I think we could say it's said in the lord of the rings

[01:34:00] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, they were said to each be the foundation of a great

[01:34:03] [SPEAKER_04]: dwarven treasure hoard right, right

[01:34:06] [SPEAKER_02]: But you need gold to make gold was thorin's other comment about

[01:34:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Or I guess it was thorin's father who said, you know, the ring needs gold to make gold. So

[01:34:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that they're necessarily following that in this in this particular adaptation

[01:34:23] [SPEAKER_08]: There was some other good writing in this at the beginning of the of the council seen here

[01:34:28] [SPEAKER_08]: and he's using this analogy of the land as a body and limbs are stretching and bones are creaking and

[01:34:35] [SPEAKER_08]: Man, I the um, i'm blanking the name of the actor again. I have it up in the notes before but peter mullen

[01:34:41] [SPEAKER_08]: Ah, he is just killing it in this role right now. He's really hitting his apex. I think

[01:34:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we're definitely getting a feeling or i'm definitely getting a feeling of the leer

[01:34:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Effect king. Yeah

[01:34:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and interestingly you're saying that david just reminded me of in muriel's dream way back in season one

[01:35:02] [SPEAKER_02]: When she's doing the blessing of children and suddenly there's a rumble and she says our island sometimes needs to stretch

[01:35:11] [SPEAKER_08]: I like that. I wonder if they made that that connection that body. Yeah, that's cool

[01:35:18] [SPEAKER_04]: So can we go on to technical issues? This is this is my next section

[01:35:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh kelle brimbor goes to his forge where meredania has gone missing while resizing a ring

[01:35:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Objects move as if by an invisible hand including the anvil falling from the ceiling. What did I say?

[01:35:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah

[01:35:38] [SPEAKER_08]: You called that

[01:35:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Kelebrin bor removes the ring from your dania's hand

[01:35:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And she said she was in a shrouded and dark version of the place where

[01:35:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Of the same place where she saw a tall figure with skin made of flames and pitiless eyes

[01:35:57] [SPEAKER_04]: She thinks it has been there with them

[01:36:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Kellebrin bor learns that saran added more mithril but refuses to provide advice on how to fix the problem

[01:36:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Kelebrin bor is called away to speak to doran

[01:36:11] [SPEAKER_04]: The third who tells him oh i'm sorry doran the fourth who tells him the ring has caused his father to be corrupted with greed

[01:36:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Doran casts suspicion on at anatar

[01:36:24] [SPEAKER_08]: So before we start taking this scene apart there was something I just wanted to point out at the very beginning

[01:36:31] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh kellebrin bor has a paperweight and he's got some cool looking papers on his desk. I'd be yes. Yes

[01:36:37] [SPEAKER_08]: But the paperweight is a little anvil exactly

[01:36:41] [SPEAKER_09]: Exactly. I noticed that second watch it was really something

[01:36:45] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, I did great merch sell amazon right and you've got a distribution channel. You can sell that stuff real quick

[01:36:51] [SPEAKER_04]: But just don't store it. I'm surprised you didn't have the office world's best boss mug

[01:36:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Just don't store it in the ceiling. Okay. Yeah, right

[01:36:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean whose design was that? I mean osha was not consulted on this set

[01:37:04] [SPEAKER_02]: No

[01:37:05] [SPEAKER_02]: No, and who checks the lines regularly to see that they don't get frayed when they're raising a little right

[01:37:11] [SPEAKER_08]: So I didn't understand

[01:37:14] [SPEAKER_08]: Some of this scene so at the end he catches the hammer

[01:37:20] [SPEAKER_08]: And figures out

[01:37:21] [SPEAKER_08]: You know the person and she pulls the ring off again very

[01:37:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Jacksonian and you know in visually in some regards of the you know the ring and the finger and that kind of stuff

[01:37:32] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh

[01:37:33] [SPEAKER_08]: But I didn't understand why stuff was flying around all crazy like because she wasn't doing that

[01:37:39] [SPEAKER_08]: Like the first hammer that came off

[01:37:41] [SPEAKER_08]: The table like it was almost like magnetism was pulling it off. And so I didn't really understand what

[01:37:47] [SPEAKER_08]: What the effect uh, what was going on here? Because that wasn't her doing a lot of the

[01:37:52] [SPEAKER_08]: Making the forge explode

[01:37:54] [SPEAKER_08]: You know what I mean? And I don't know maybe it's just that because the unseen world was being mucked with I I don't know

[01:38:02] [SPEAKER_04]: I think you're on to something david. I think perhaps sauron was manipulating things

[01:38:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe in the hopes that she might get struck out with it or he could blame some accident on her

[01:38:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, continue to isolate kella brenboer. That's his that's kella brenboer's most trusted assistant, right? Right

[01:38:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and yet I see

[01:38:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Her turning more and more to annatar

[01:38:25] [SPEAKER_02]: even before kella brenboer

[01:38:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Goes off on his bad cop rant and annatar steps in with the good cop rant

[01:38:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I pictured it as being an imbalance between the seen and unseen worlds. Okay

[01:38:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And my interpretation of course is that the figure with skin of flame etc is in fact annatar

[01:38:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah

[01:38:49] [SPEAKER_08]: I was thinking balrog by this on my second watch and and

[01:38:55] [SPEAKER_08]: Reconsideration of what he was saying I

[01:38:58] [SPEAKER_08]: My initial thought

[01:39:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Was annatar and then sorry annatar

[01:39:05] [SPEAKER_08]: But then I was afterwards. I was like, oh that sounds a little balroggy because you know flame eyes, you know very ancient

[01:39:14] [SPEAKER_08]: So I got a little

[01:39:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Little confused in the scene. Well sauron is a fire spirit

[01:39:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah

[01:39:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, and I and I think you know seeing things in their true nature the pitiless eyes really set

[01:39:27] [SPEAKER_08]: Scream sauron to me. See that's what I thought initially too. Yeah, so

[01:39:33] [SPEAKER_04]: And also when she says it's been here with us the whole time

[01:39:36] [SPEAKER_04]: I think exactly the balrog is too far away for that, right?

[01:39:39] [SPEAKER_04]: This is somebody who's been here intimately and that's why annatar had to

[01:39:43] [SPEAKER_04]: They're right next to each other

[01:39:44] [SPEAKER_04]: But if you deep in the mountain is she gonna be like it's been here with us the whole time

[01:39:48] [SPEAKER_04]: You know what I mean? Yeah, okay. I don't feel like my neighbors even next door are with me right now

[01:39:53] [SPEAKER_02]: The balrog is in kaza dum, which is miles and miles away from ebregion which is where the gwaidim yurtain are

[01:40:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, so even though they're next door in the grand scheme right relatively close

[01:40:04] [SPEAKER_02]: But not on top of each other only in the minds of the showrunners here. Yeah, okay

[01:40:09] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, all right

[01:40:11] [SPEAKER_08]: well still a

[01:40:13] [SPEAKER_08]: masterful

[01:40:14] [SPEAKER_08]: ability for

[01:40:17] [SPEAKER_08]: um

[01:40:18] [SPEAKER_08]: Annatar to get

[01:40:20] [SPEAKER_08]: Kelle rimbaud back involved here. Yes, you know perfect

[01:40:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Perfect play also. I love that annatar is basically like a kid cheating on his homework, right?

[01:40:30] [SPEAKER_04]: A plus a times b equals well, no you're doing it wrong. You have to do it like wait a minute

[01:40:38] [SPEAKER_09]: Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep

[01:40:40] [SPEAKER_08]: uh

[01:40:41] [SPEAKER_08]: and then this master gas lighting and using uh galadriel who

[01:40:47] [SPEAKER_08]: Must I I really thought that it was interesting that he compared her to galadriel

[01:40:52] [SPEAKER_08]: Because that says something about galadriel as being someone that uh, a normal

[01:40:57] [SPEAKER_08]: A mundane elf. Can I say that? You know, like you're you know, a regular elf would look up to galadriel

[01:41:03] [SPEAKER_08]: Like she's even more elfie elf than most elves are yeah

[01:41:08] [SPEAKER_08]: And so it's like hey david you're really like, you know this hero or this, you know, amazing person like oh, thank you

[01:41:14] [SPEAKER_08]: That's very kind of you

[01:41:17] [SPEAKER_02]: You know and then for annatar to tell the guaidim yrdain that

[01:41:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Kellebrimbor has been damaged by forging the 7 that that was just evil

[01:41:28] [SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely wicked

[01:41:30] [SPEAKER_08]: And and he's isolating her right? Yeah. Yeah

[01:41:34] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I think he's isolating he's isolating kellebrimbor even more. Yeah. Well, he's yeah. Yeah, absolutely

[01:41:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And and you know suddenly making the guaidim yrdain the us with with annatar versus him

[01:41:49] kellebrimbor

[01:41:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think edwards is also starting to show more than a touch of the kinglyre

[01:41:56] [SPEAKER_02]: About him. Yeah, he's really it's really starting to affect him visibly. I mean his hands were shaking right, right

[01:42:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And uh, he's he's he knows what he's dealing with

[01:42:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah

[01:42:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Is incredibly dangerous and he managed to do it more or less successfully with the elven rings so far that we can see

[01:42:17] [SPEAKER_02]: but i'm thinking back again to that scene where the dwarves bring their piece of mithril and

[01:42:24] [SPEAKER_02]: You know kellebrimbor picks it up and is about to dump it in when annatar reaches out his hand

[01:42:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And does either the palm thing and puts in something completely different or simply makes it look very

[01:42:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Formalized and closes his eyes and holds it in his fist. That's my I'm

[01:42:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Shows the juju in I mean either way. Yeah, either way he clearly has affected it

[01:42:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah

[01:42:49] [SPEAKER_04]: you know my my favorite part of this whole scene is just how masterfully he

[01:42:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Pushes nudges mirjania to the conclusions

[01:42:59] [SPEAKER_04]: That he wants her to go to right. He never says kellebrimbor is the ring of fire

[01:43:03] [SPEAKER_04]: He says something that I think is a true statement which is

[01:43:07] [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't want any of you to see that

[01:43:10] [SPEAKER_10]: Right

[01:43:11] [SPEAKER_10]: I didn't want you to see my true form. No, no, no definitely not

[01:43:15] [SPEAKER_04]: And just leads her to the conclusion that it's kellebrimbor and not him right? Oh

[01:43:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Yep, yep. She's the one who makes that logical leap. Yes, so it is not the balrog

[01:43:27] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I don't really think it is. Yeah

[01:43:31] [SPEAKER_02]: It makes so much more sense if it's yeah, you know, okay easier that way. Okay. All right. All right

[01:43:36] [SPEAKER_08]: All right. I'm digging that i'm digging that

[01:43:39] [SPEAKER_08]: Cool

[01:43:41] [SPEAKER_08]: I feel like I need to take a bath

[01:43:44] [SPEAKER_10]: Talk about slime my goodness metaphorical or literal

[01:43:49] [SPEAKER_09]: Sauron is slime

[01:43:52] [SPEAKER_08]: Well

[01:43:53] [SPEAKER_08]: I think your big scene is up next. Oh

[01:43:56] [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, all right

[01:43:58] [SPEAKER_04]: The unseen world

[01:44:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I actually I didn't I didn't actually say the scene that we were talking about as we were

[01:44:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Talking about the second part of it, which is saron consoles mirdania

[01:44:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Telling her the unseen worlds show world shows things as they really are

[01:44:13] [SPEAKER_04]: He leads her to the conclusion that kellebrimbor was a fiery figure and swears her to secrecy

[01:44:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, he helps to heal the elven lord

[01:44:21] [SPEAKER_04]: He tells her she looks like galadriel when the light hits her hair

[01:44:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Right, there's the scene description got it. Yeah, okay, cool because of course secrecy is always good for community building, right?

[01:44:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, but it's

[01:44:34] [SPEAKER_04]: He does it in a way that says like let me help him, you know

[01:44:37] [SPEAKER_04]: He's not ready to hear. I know he's fallen to darkness. I know but it's still it's beautifully done

[01:44:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Beautifully done dentist system pull it back up

[01:44:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Take another thing all over the place 100 percent seriously

[01:44:51] [SPEAKER_04]: All right. So the new minorean funeral is what we're doing next

[01:44:55] [SPEAKER_04]: The new minoreans place candlelit shells in the water in memory of their lost loved ones

[01:45:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Including ellendil sir. Sorry ellendil and vilandil for a sealed or yes, that was correct

[01:45:07] [SPEAKER_04]: I was reading it correctly and I typed it correctly. I promise

[01:45:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Kevin arrives to condemn the shrine to make way for the new aqueduct

[01:45:15] [SPEAKER_04]: He taunts ellendil but ellendil tries to escort a priest out in peace with his relic which kemin breaks out of spite

[01:45:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Ellendil punches kemin to the ground and is captured by guards, but valendil stops kemin from attacking

[01:45:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Telling him kingsmen aren't welcome at this shrine for the faithful

[01:45:34] [SPEAKER_04]: kemin and vilandil fight

[01:45:36] [SPEAKER_04]: And valendil holds kemin at sword point ellendil orders

[01:45:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Valendil to put the sword down only for kemin to stab vilandil in the back killing him

[01:45:47] [SPEAKER_04]: kemin frames ellendil

[01:45:50] [SPEAKER_08]: All right, uh marilyn where are we going to start with this

[01:45:55] [SPEAKER_02]: It's an incredibly beautiful ritual in the oldest shrine in the old quarter of new minore

[01:46:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And it is the shrine of niana. Is that the figure that was broken?

[01:46:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Unquestionably because she is the one who

[01:46:10] [SPEAKER_08]: Kevin's kemin's even more a p.os now that I know that it's

[01:46:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Her

[01:46:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And not just some random, uh, not some artifacts. No, no, this is this is the shrine to niana

[01:46:22] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a ceremony to help the dead new minoreans find peace which I found interesting because

[01:46:28] [SPEAKER_02]: My philosophy is you know, the dead have already found their peace

[01:46:31] [SPEAKER_02]: It's the living who need to find their peace about those who died but you know, it works both ways

[01:46:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Now interestingly in a sense

[01:46:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Beautiful as this is it still represents something of a fall for the new minoreans

[01:46:46] [SPEAKER_02]: because

[01:46:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Only the monarchs were supposed to take on priestly roles in the beginning

[01:46:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And they were only

[01:46:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Enacted on the top of mental tarnama, you know the open air sanctuary with no buildings or no other devices

[01:47:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Right here. We have a beautiful sanctuary with a priest running the service doing sacred ceremonies

[01:47:06] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's wonderful

[01:47:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Right, it's wonderful and I knew the moment that I saw that statue of diana that it was going to be smashed and probably by kevin

[01:47:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And all this for an aqueduct

[01:47:18] [SPEAKER_02]: right

[01:47:20] [SPEAKER_08]: Right, of course. We've got to make way for the hyper space bypass

[01:47:24] [SPEAKER_04]: It reminds me by the way, maryland

[01:47:27] [SPEAKER_04]: You say this is a fall for the new minoreans because they only should have basically one temple right one shrine

[01:47:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Right and it reminds me of the schism currently within jewish belief which is some

[01:47:40] [SPEAKER_04]: You may have noticed that some jews call their place of worship a synagogue and some call it a temple temple

[01:47:46] [SPEAKER_08]: Some call the shul as well. Yes, and a interesting it's in my

[01:47:53] [SPEAKER_08]: Where where I interact it's it's uh interchangeable the word

[01:47:56] [SPEAKER_04]: so temple is the most controversial of them because

[01:48:00] [SPEAKER_04]: very

[01:48:02] [SPEAKER_04]: The more strict denominations of judaism will tell you

[01:48:06] [SPEAKER_04]: that uh temple that there is one temple and it is in right Jerusalem and

[01:48:11] [SPEAKER_04]: We cannot call any other place of worship the temple or any temple

[01:48:16] [SPEAKER_04]: And so I I think of it like that. It's again really interesting

[01:48:20] [SPEAKER_04]: I love that that listener pointed out the the ties with jewish

[01:48:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes. Yes, and they just keep on

[01:48:29] [SPEAKER_02]: um

[01:48:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Popping up because we are talking about a concept of a quote-unquote

[01:48:35] [SPEAKER_02]: true faith

[01:48:36] [SPEAKER_02]: right and

[01:48:38] [SPEAKER_02]: The reason why I think they were led to to this particular outcome is because

[01:48:46] [SPEAKER_02]: This implies that yes, if this has been going on a very long time

[01:48:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Because this is the oldest shrine and the oldest part of new minore

[01:48:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Those who remained faithful

[01:48:56] [SPEAKER_02]: To the old ways had to have some form

[01:48:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Right of enacting them. It's the democratization of it, right?

[01:49:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And if that means that you're slipping into ceremony well ceremony is just something that people do

[01:49:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Whether it's with an official or just on their own

[01:49:13] [SPEAKER_02]: You know ritual is as much a part of us as our meeting making

[01:49:17] [SPEAKER_08]: Only there was a podcast that talked about yeah, I'm gonna say people like rings. They like rituals

[01:49:25] [SPEAKER_08]: If it were bundled with some other podcasts as a package

[01:49:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah with a lovely

[01:49:33] uh

[01:49:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Tent sheltering us all together

[01:49:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, we have that incredible

[01:49:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Stay glass window which I interpreted as being of the of the tree and it's a definite tree

[01:49:49] [SPEAKER_08]: Design motif and there's 11 small circles that are branching out from the tree

[01:49:55] [SPEAKER_08]: So on the outer ring of the circle and I don't know if if there was significance there or not

[01:50:00] [SPEAKER_08]: But I counted 11 little nodules. I think that could indicate the number of the valor

[01:50:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, i'm not sure about that. That might be incorrect. Okay

[01:50:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I just went with you know

[01:50:13] [SPEAKER_02]: The original tree that morgue off

[01:50:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Killed off or the white tree of new minore or you know

[01:50:19] [SPEAKER_02]: As john says follow the trees. There's all kinds of yeah possible meanings for that more merch that amazon could be

[01:50:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Telling but then the shell motif. Yes, right

[01:50:29] [SPEAKER_02]: The walls is yeah being the the the new minority and flavor

[01:50:35] [SPEAKER_02]: To this essential

[01:50:36] [SPEAKER_02]: You know shrine of grieving and mourning and the tradition of releasing lighted candles to float on the water

[01:50:43] [SPEAKER_02]: To honor your beloved dead ones

[01:50:45] [SPEAKER_02]: uh

[01:50:46] [SPEAKER_02]: That's thousands of years old we see it in the buddhist bond festival in japan and in hawaii

[01:50:52] [SPEAKER_02]: In ceremonies we see it in hindu rituals on the ganges river

[01:50:57] [SPEAKER_02]: There are many east asian and southern asian cultures that use

[01:51:02] [SPEAKER_02]: This particular form of of memorializing sometimes it's it's paper

[01:51:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Boxes that float with the candle inside. Sometimes it's just as we saw here a simple shell with with the wax candle in it

[01:51:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Um floating out on the water

[01:51:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Even today in providence, rood island they had in the summertime they have this um

[01:51:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Water fire

[01:51:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Where?

[01:51:27] [SPEAKER_02]: In evenings, they have these large middle baskets full of wood

[01:51:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And after dark people will go about in boats and light these baskets with this holding this wonderful

[01:51:37] [SPEAKER_02]: flames

[01:51:39] [SPEAKER_02]: All down the river and also in this the circular basin, which is the headwater of the river. It's it's a tidal river. So

[01:51:46] [SPEAKER_02]: You know that that combination of fire and water seems to be really really embedded in the human spirit

[01:51:52] [SPEAKER_08]: And this whole scene ends with uh, the lights on the water drifting out into them. Yeah. Yes and vilandil's death

[01:52:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Truly heartbreaking in this moment and kemon washing his sword in the water is just

[01:52:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Abominable I was gonna that was like a big note. I had here kemon. He doesn't just

[01:52:12] [SPEAKER_08]: he

[01:52:14] [SPEAKER_08]: but

[01:52:14] [SPEAKER_08]: For him what he's doing is a yeah

[01:52:17] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I got to hit the blood off my sword and whatever but visually the way that they they filmed that scene

[01:52:22] [SPEAKER_08]: It is ritualistic. Oh, yeah in its depiction and it was so powerful

[01:52:29] [SPEAKER_02]: deliberate desecration

[01:52:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Of this oldest shrine of

[01:52:35] [SPEAKER_02]: What have now become?

[01:52:37] [SPEAKER_02]: the faithful

[01:52:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And of course foreshadowing which I won't spoil you can cue a photo again if you watch on

[01:52:48] [SPEAKER_02]: To keep your secrets

[01:52:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this this was just an incredible thing

[01:52:55] [SPEAKER_08]: I've got a ton of notes. I've got a couple of technic or uh lorry questions

[01:53:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh that I wanted to ask. Um, there was a word that was uttered. Um

[01:53:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Narsea narsea

[01:53:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was a new word to me and of course with the screeners we don't have yeah

[01:53:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we'll have to check it after we yeah after it comes out

[01:53:16] [SPEAKER_08]: And then what language was the old man speaking when he was saying, you know, like we've got to preserve that

[01:53:22] [SPEAKER_08]: relic so um, so the dead can be taken care of

[01:53:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't pay close attention to it at a guess

[01:53:30] [SPEAKER_02]: It would be

[01:53:33] [SPEAKER_02]: It's more likely to be quenya than sandodon I think I I think it's quenya because that's what

[01:53:38] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it has to be elandiel was speaking to gladrile in season one, right? Right. Right. I think that's the most likely

[01:53:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean it there's a possibility that it could be adonai

[01:53:48] [SPEAKER_04]: But I think also their titles were recorded in quenya for the faithful, right?

[01:53:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Their titles were recorded in quenya and then it's only the king's men

[01:53:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, they're not really king's men till later

[01:53:58] [SPEAKER_04]: But the those breaking from the faithful tradition that record their names in adonai in the roles of kings and queens

[01:54:05] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, yeah

[01:54:08] [SPEAKER_08]: Just to pivot back slightly to the aqueduct thing the something that it really reminded me of was sort of a

[01:54:16] [SPEAKER_08]: Robert moses thing where oh, you know industry has to pave its way here

[01:54:21] [SPEAKER_08]: We've got to do all this stuff. And so we're going to bulldoze communities and community spaces

[01:54:26] [SPEAKER_08]: In uh for a greater good, you know, quote unquote greater good purpose

[01:54:30] [SPEAKER_08]: And I know, you know moses was doing robert moses in new york city and the way

[01:54:34] [SPEAKER_08]: highways were designed and brought in and

[01:54:36] [SPEAKER_08]: there's a lot of complexity to it, but then just to

[01:54:40] [SPEAKER_08]: oversimplified a little bit just this idea that

[01:54:44] [SPEAKER_08]: um

[01:54:45] [SPEAKER_08]: Infrastructure is more important than community space

[01:54:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, particularly if those communities are communities that are troublesome in some way right quote unquote

[01:54:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Perceived as troublesome by by those who have the power to do aqua. Once again, what is it with the aqueducts, right?

[01:55:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Pelagia now it's another device you get an aqueduct seriously coming in

[01:55:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Coming in saying mr. Ellen deal tell her tear down this wall

[01:55:13] [SPEAKER_01]: What did the brahmans ever what did what did the new menorians ever give us?

[01:55:20] [SPEAKER_08]: We were gonna do a monty python I know I know

[01:55:23] [SPEAKER_04]: You absolutely have to absolutely you I think you know, what would be really fun is if for like a christmas special or something

[01:55:30] [SPEAKER_04]: We just all reenacted a full monty python movie. It's just each took several characters

[01:55:36] [SPEAKER_04]: That would be fun every affiliate contributes some lines that would be a lot of fun

[01:55:40] [SPEAKER_02]: But who's how are we gonna you know draw lots for dennis because everybody's gonna want to do dennis, which is dennis

[01:55:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I fart in your general direction. No, no, no, no, no dennis is um, you know

[01:55:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Strange women lying in ponds. Oh, yeah, there's no assistant for it. Right? You know what marilyn you can have dennis

[01:55:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you're very kind. I'll happily i'll happily take the uh, the french soldiers too just because but

[01:56:06] [SPEAKER_08]: so I have two last notes one about the uh,

[01:56:09] [SPEAKER_08]: The uh swift sunrise line and then I have one about the fight between valandil and kemon

[01:56:16] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know if we have a preference to talk about one or go for it

[01:56:21] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, well, let's talk about let's

[01:56:23] [SPEAKER_08]: I would talk about um kemon and valandil. So this was a fight that was

[01:56:29] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh foreshadowed a couple of episodes ago. Absolutely. Well a couple of scenes ago

[01:56:33] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, well, but it was in the bar the right right

[01:56:37] [SPEAKER_02]: But then we also have this scene in this one with the decaptaining and so forth

[01:56:41] [SPEAKER_08]: Right and something that really struck me about valandil

[01:56:46] [SPEAKER_08]: Reminded me a bunch about pippin and mary when they returned to the shire

[01:56:51] [SPEAKER_08]: And at kemon when we met him in season one and with all his other shipmates they're young

[01:56:57] [SPEAKER_08]: They're idealistic. You mean valandil valandil. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah

[01:57:02] [SPEAKER_08]: apologies, um

[01:57:04] [SPEAKER_08]: Valandil was young and and his whole cohort they're young and idealistic and they're ready to write off with their queen going to war

[01:57:10] [SPEAKER_08]: Probably not unlike a lot of uh tolkien's contemporaries were when they were facing absolutely

[01:57:17] [SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely, and then when when mary and pippin come back to the shire

[01:57:23] [SPEAKER_08]: They're badasses, right? They kick some

[01:57:26] [SPEAKER_08]: Serious ass

[01:57:27] [SPEAKER_08]: And they clean up the shire. Well, you know with all the remnants of of you know

[01:57:32] [SPEAKER_08]: The sort of the shattering of of all the evil forces and all the other evil stuff that was going on

[01:57:38] [SPEAKER_08]: And this idea that people who have lived through combat and through great, uh stress and turmoil if you've survived and come out

[01:57:45] [SPEAKER_08]: You know reasonably whole, you know in um and alive that um, you're different and so his fights

[01:57:53] [SPEAKER_08]: with uh kemon is

[01:57:57] [SPEAKER_08]: Very I mean they the whole head in the water

[01:58:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Bit like that was all just for some dramatic tension

[01:58:03] [SPEAKER_08]: But valandil had this you know fight from the beginning. It was yeah, you know

[01:58:07] [SPEAKER_08]: He owned it

[01:58:08] [SPEAKER_08]: I just wanted him to do a flip and pull him into the water when that was happening

[01:58:12] [SPEAKER_08]: Like he's got when he's got his head in the water

[01:58:14] [SPEAKER_08]: He could have just fallen into the water with both of them and he was

[01:58:16] [SPEAKER_08]: He would have won that fight because he's a sailor. So anyway, whatever

[01:58:20] [SPEAKER_08]: um

[01:58:21] [SPEAKER_08]: but it just really I just really

[01:58:24] [SPEAKER_08]: Was appreciating the arc that uh valandil went on and what that represents is that somebody who's gone out and faced

[01:58:31] [SPEAKER_08]: The terror of combat who's coming back and then you've got this bully like i'm gonna punch you in the nose bully

[01:58:37] [SPEAKER_08]: Right, you don't scare me because i've seen real combat

[01:58:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would say that kemon needs to learn self-defense, but he's already so twisted inside

[01:58:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure that he can learn the things that he needs to learn even more before he can learn self-defense

[01:58:53] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you gotta have two soldiers holding elandil before you can punch him in the gut and you have to you know

[01:58:58] [SPEAKER_02]: all the

[01:59:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, anyway, but of course if saruman can get stabbed in the back then

[01:59:04] [SPEAKER_04]: I think I think we're fine

[01:59:06] [SPEAKER_08]: This is and this is like a rule for life if you live in this kind of world is never ever

[01:59:12] [SPEAKER_08]: Turn your back on your opponent and never leave a weapon in reach of your opponent. Right, right

[01:59:17] [SPEAKER_08]: And now of course, uh, elandil has got some serious guilt baggage to carry. Oh, holy cow

[01:59:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think you know valandil was more than halfway to being his

[01:59:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Surrogate son and now yes, he is gone. Yeah

[01:59:32] [SPEAKER_08]: So a far so the priest says a far greener country under a swift sunrise

[01:59:38] [SPEAKER_08]: And it's a line that we've we've talked about before

[01:59:41] [SPEAKER_08]: In the movie, it's an adaptation with pippen and gandalf

[01:59:46] [SPEAKER_08]: and in the book, it's a

[01:59:49] [SPEAKER_08]: Dream that frodo has

[01:59:51] [SPEAKER_08]: in the house of bombardier

[01:59:55] [SPEAKER_08]: and

[01:59:56] [SPEAKER_08]: there

[01:59:57] [SPEAKER_08]: Frodo heard a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a gray rain curtain

[02:00:03] [SPEAKER_08]: And growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver

[02:00:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Until at last it was rolled back

[02:00:10] [SPEAKER_08]: and a far green country opened under

[02:00:14] [SPEAKER_08]: Pardon me. I flubbed the line here

[02:00:16] [SPEAKER_08]: And a far green country opened before him under a swift sunrise

[02:00:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Look at you being all lore master

[02:00:24] [SPEAKER_08]: Very nice

[02:00:26] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I you know the internets, uh provide are they're a cornucopia of information

[02:00:33] [SPEAKER_08]: And uh, and I guess at that point in the book, you know, he had um,

[02:00:37] [SPEAKER_08]: No idea what that dream meant

[02:00:39] [SPEAKER_08]: But then at the end when he's sailing it's again revealed and brought back

[02:00:43] [SPEAKER_08]: So I thought it was really interesting now. I don't know. I was fine with the line under this circumstance

[02:00:48] [SPEAKER_08]: But again, i'm a more casual fan

[02:00:50] [SPEAKER_08]: But I just wonder how much this line is going to make maybe some um book oriented folks be a you know

[02:00:57] [SPEAKER_08]: Howl a little bit. I don't know. We'll see

[02:00:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think all the people who are complaining just too much peter jackson will probably howl

[02:01:05] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, right. Yeah

[02:01:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that book people will howl particularly. Um

[02:01:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean because

[02:01:13] [SPEAKER_02]: They could have talked with their friends the elves when the elves were still friends and the elves were describing this

[02:01:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Event and so that's how it went into the

[02:01:23] [SPEAKER_08]: The lore and then the rituals of the faithful. I yeah, I I find that it's a it's a beautiful

[02:01:30] [SPEAKER_08]: Description and I think in

[02:01:32] [SPEAKER_08]: Was it episode one of season one when gladriel is uh on the boat?

[02:01:37] [SPEAKER_08]: Right, right, you know, it felt very that scene the way they shot that scene

[02:01:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh felt very inspired by this line. So intentionally so they tried to recreate it as much as they could

[02:01:47] [SPEAKER_02]: John what do you think?

[02:01:50] [SPEAKER_04]: the um

[02:01:51] [SPEAKER_04]: The line that is similar to frotto's line or the line about the line there in you know in the middle of it

[02:01:59] [SPEAKER_04]: I I didn't connect it at all when I was watching it. Oh, okay. So interesting. Yeah

[02:02:03] [SPEAKER_04]: I was not thinking about that at all

[02:02:05] [SPEAKER_04]: It's it is interesting though now that you bring it up that the newman orians are explicitly banned from sailing west, right?

[02:02:12] [SPEAKER_04]: They are

[02:02:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you know that they are banned from sailing west they can never make that journey that frotto made

[02:02:18] [SPEAKER_02]: At least not in their bodies

[02:02:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Sure

[02:02:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. And so that is uh, that's an interesting line to put in there

[02:02:26] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, yep and in a shrine of the faithful

[02:02:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah

[02:02:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I guess they long for something that they know they cannot have

[02:02:38] [SPEAKER_04]: A common occurrence

[02:02:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, can we move on to the corruption of the rings? Yes, so we get back to kelly brimbor time

[02:02:48] [SPEAKER_04]: The brimbor asks saron

[02:02:50] [SPEAKER_04]: If he altered the dwarven rings, he says no they both did. I love the long pause there. Yeah

[02:02:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Saron claims the deception of kelly brimbor to gil gallad brought to seat into the process corrupting the rings

[02:03:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Anatar tells kelly brimbor their only options are to confess to the high king or to plunge on

[02:03:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Doran the younger tries to get his father to take off the ring

[02:03:15] [SPEAKER_04]: But doran the elder tells him he's proud of his son for allying with the elves and saving their kingdom

[02:03:23] [SPEAKER_04]: He gives his son his regalia back

[02:03:25] [SPEAKER_04]: When he arrives home when doran the younger arrives home

[02:03:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Disa makes him swear to never wear any of the rings

[02:03:35] Hmm

[02:03:36] [SPEAKER_04]: His sweet talk to him, right? It's like I don't want any part of that until you give me my job back

[02:03:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's the impression that's created isn't it yeah and I can see where disa might

[02:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Be led to suspect that there was some

[02:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: You know kind of bribery involved

[02:03:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, of course was not the case and and

[02:03:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Prince doran is quite open about the fact that you know, I tried I really tried

[02:04:04] [SPEAKER_04]: And nothing I could do could persuade him. Well, I I don't think that this is bribery. I think this is just

[02:04:12] [SPEAKER_04]: He he craves the acceptance

[02:04:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Of his father

[02:04:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Sure, which he's never had and so the minute he gets it he stops arguing with him at that very moment

[02:04:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Right, and and I can only go with what they're telling me on tv. We can't assume that he kept going after that

[02:04:30] [SPEAKER_04]: I think the the regalia gets ripped away from him if he keeps going too hard

[02:04:35] [SPEAKER_02]: My interpretation was he was so gobsmacked

[02:04:39] [SPEAKER_02]: That it would have this outcome that he just didn't know what to say at that point. Mm-hmm. Yeah

[02:04:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And I still think that he was

[02:04:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Wishing desperately that he could get his father to give up the ring

[02:04:52] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, he'd give the collar back again if his father would give up the ring. Mm-hmm

[02:04:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Was was how I read it but you may be right sean. I mean I guess we can just wait

[02:05:01] [SPEAKER_08]: Let me wait and see. Yeah, yeah, I read it more too that it was he was conflicted

[02:05:06] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, you know he he wants to be prince again

[02:05:09] [SPEAKER_08]: But and he wants his dad back again that even more than being prince

[02:05:14] [SPEAKER_08]: Right, I think and I think this is interesting and for his arc then over the you know, the course of the coming seasons

[02:05:20] [SPEAKER_08]: This is a really important time for doran the fourth

[02:05:24] [SPEAKER_08]: To have been to have lived without

[02:05:27] [SPEAKER_08]: the trappings

[02:05:29] [SPEAKER_08]: of

[02:05:30] [SPEAKER_08]: Royalty and the privileges that he's had to live, you know, what did she say deer?

[02:05:36] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, there's a word for you know, things are expensive. They're deer right

[02:05:42] [SPEAKER_08]: You know he's they've had to live within their means a bit more he's had to take a job

[02:05:48] [SPEAKER_08]: And he's been without power. And so when he does eventually assume the throne assuming that that's what happens

[02:05:55] [SPEAKER_08]: Um

[02:05:57] [SPEAKER_08]: That he will have had that experience and that will have tempered him and there's this line

[02:06:01] [SPEAKER_08]: Time and pressure can shape a dwarf as surely as it can shape a stone. I was like, oh another

[02:06:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Fire line like that was so good

[02:06:10] [SPEAKER_08]: And and he's being shaped by this experience

[02:06:14] [SPEAKER_08]: Whether or not it's tainted by the ring and you know all of that stuff

[02:06:18] [SPEAKER_08]: Just this time away from his father and in a way outside of the power structure

[02:06:22] [SPEAKER_08]: Is is really going to affect him later on in his arc

[02:06:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes and learning more about the um

[02:06:33] [SPEAKER_02]: The risks and the dangers of of kingship. Mm-hmm exactly

[02:06:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Exactly because during the third is cray cray at this point

[02:06:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm afraid so and I think that's

[02:06:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe the hardest thing of all for prince doran to accept

[02:06:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I want to I want to go back to kelle brimbor for a minute because I want to talk about the concept of reactive abuse

[02:06:55] [SPEAKER_04]: interesting, okay, uh the concept that

[02:06:59] [SPEAKER_04]: an abuser

[02:07:02] to

[02:07:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Lessen their culpability and make you think that they didn't do as bad of a thing they did

[02:07:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Will bait the victim?

[02:07:12] into

[02:07:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Into feeling like they're they're implicated in the abuse right?

[02:07:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you know baiting someone into hitting you back

[02:07:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Something like that. You know, this obviously is not physical abuse, but this is

[02:07:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Emotional manipulation and he says, you know, uh saran says to him. Uh, no I didn't do anything to the rings

[02:07:31] [SPEAKER_04]: We did we did we he puts his hand in the pot

[02:07:35] [SPEAKER_10]: Right, right, right

[02:07:37] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's such a a moment of I think it's true to the concept of reactive abuse

[02:07:42] [SPEAKER_04]: I might be stretching the concept a little bit but

[02:07:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, I think it's the same kind of thing is is trying to

[02:07:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Make it so that the victim feels like they did something wrong

[02:07:54] [SPEAKER_04]: So they feel too icky to get out of the situation

[02:07:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and i'm well right back with galadrio on that raft where

[02:08:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Sauron says to her what are what are your elves gonna say to you when they know that sauron lives because of right?

[02:08:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Same but she came clean at least

[02:08:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly eventually exactly

[02:08:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And isn't it ironic that the master of lies is saying

[02:08:17] [SPEAKER_02]: You lied to your high king, right?

[02:08:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the line that just absolutely kills me

[02:08:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And atar says just be mindful. Someone is not manipulated you

[02:08:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you know that in his head. He's just having fun with that one, right?

[02:08:36] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's so well done, you know, we got a little bit for the plot and then a little bit extra for fun

[02:08:41] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, yeah, yeah good golly miss molly

[02:08:45] [SPEAKER_08]: and this this

[02:08:47] [SPEAKER_08]: scene

[02:08:48] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, I the way I was trying to I was when I was watching it. I was trying to understand

[02:08:54] [SPEAKER_08]: It felt at one point that anatar is he's like, oh like I don't know how to handle the situation like what's going on?

[02:09:01] [SPEAKER_08]: and then we get this sort of

[02:09:04] [SPEAKER_08]: shot from

[02:09:05] [SPEAKER_08]: over charlie vickers's shoulder looking back

[02:09:08] [SPEAKER_08]: And his head is kind of down and kind of a thoughtful repose and then the camera flips back around and then we see him

[02:09:15] [SPEAKER_08]: And he as his face comes lifts up from that thoughtful pose

[02:09:20] [SPEAKER_08]: He's very clear and then that's when he

[02:09:24] [SPEAKER_08]: Gives him the only pathway out which is you know, we can we can

[02:09:28] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, you can go and tell your king and confess or we can dive deeper to the maelstrom

[02:09:34] [SPEAKER_08]: And so it feels like anatar is is in that moment

[02:09:39] [SPEAKER_08]: Coming up with this stuff like he's he's like playing jazz a little bit

[02:09:43] [SPEAKER_08]: He's like, oh how am I going to deal with this one?

[02:09:45] [SPEAKER_08]: And he's like, oh I can do this and then and we're seeing that actually develop real time

[02:09:50] [SPEAKER_08]: It's not like there's a pre-baked script that he has he's having to deal with kella brimbor

[02:09:56] [SPEAKER_08]: Who's very enamored with him?

[02:09:59] [SPEAKER_08]: But is also very smart and very observant. And so he's anatar is constantly having to like

[02:10:04] [SPEAKER_08]: Dance and be prepared and think a few steps ahead

[02:10:08] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm never sure what where things are going to go

[02:10:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there is a reason why kella brimbor is the finest

[02:10:16] [SPEAKER_02]: smith and crafter of of his age

[02:10:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And the wisdom that comes along with that and and the fact that there is some piece that he knows that sauron doesn't know and is

[02:10:27] [SPEAKER_02]: continually trying to get

[02:10:30] [SPEAKER_02]: um

[02:10:31] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, which is interesting because i'm quite sure that you know

[02:10:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And the thar sauron knows a lot more about the unseen world than kella brimbor does right right right

[02:10:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's it's kind of kind of fascinating

[02:10:44] [SPEAKER_04]: So let's go on to the next part of the scene kella brimbor is in charge

[02:10:48] [SPEAKER_04]: kella brimbor scolds his his assistance for losing attention making the rings

[02:10:54] [SPEAKER_04]: He says the only path forward is to forge the nine rings to redeem the seven as a part of the project

[02:11:00] [SPEAKER_04]: He will create new designs alloys and processes as he says

[02:11:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh sauron gives a pep talk and the team gets ready to start immediately kella brimbor is stressed

[02:11:11] [SPEAKER_04]: And here I want to picture kella brimbor doing a record scratch like you're probably wondering how I got here

[02:11:19] Funny

[02:11:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm now suddenly thinking of throwing good money after bad

[02:11:26] [SPEAKER_08]: Why

[02:11:26] [SPEAKER_08]: 20 rings

[02:11:29] [SPEAKER_08]: That seems an odd number to and that's the total with the one ring, right? So it's 19 plus one

[02:11:36] [SPEAKER_08]: There's no like there's no it doesn't seem like there's any mystical things around 20

[02:11:40] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know. Is that just the way the math ended up or did he intend to get to 20 or

[02:11:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Well again, one three seven and nine are significant numbers. Yeah agree in a lot of different cultures agree

[02:11:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So that might have been at the back of just it just ended up as 20

[02:11:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. Oh, they've also played a lot of jazz hands on the order of the rings they have

[02:12:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, they have and the manner of it and the fact that there were a whole bunch of rings just lying around and

[02:12:08] [SPEAKER_02]: In the lore it was sauron who?

[02:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Picked him up and said okay. I'm gonna give this money to this group and this money to this group

[02:12:15] [SPEAKER_02]: They were not specifically forged with specific people in mind. Okay. Here's my philosophy in the lore

[02:12:21] [SPEAKER_04]: which is not the same thing as the

[02:12:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Show which is

[02:12:27] [SPEAKER_04]: I think he gave he started giving them to dwarves and the dwarves were not very easily corrupted. He's like, um, right

[02:12:33] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm gonna pivot here and then he gave more of them to men

[02:12:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Because men are easier to corrupt

[02:12:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh in the books kelly brimbor forges the three elven rings without sauron after the other rings are forged

[02:12:47] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, that's right. That's right. Yeah, so they have flipped it on its head, right?

[02:12:52] [SPEAKER_04]: And so we just don't know what they're doing in this okay, fair enough

[02:12:56] [SPEAKER_08]: I can I can deal

[02:12:59] [SPEAKER_08]: Organizational leadership. I was just thinking about this a little bit project management. Can we talk about it? Yeah

[02:13:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Should I make that the stinger?

[02:13:06] [SPEAKER_04]: I think I said earlier lord of the rings is fundamentally a story about project management

[02:13:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I think i'm gonna make that the stinger. I like it

[02:13:13] [SPEAKER_08]: uh, I was just thinking about

[02:13:15] [SPEAKER_08]: In military you would have an officer and a non-commissioned officer, you know

[02:13:19] [SPEAKER_08]: You might have a lieutenant and a sergeant or in an orchestra. You might have a conductor

[02:13:23] [SPEAKER_08]: But then the first chair, you know is doing a lot of stuff

[02:13:26] [SPEAKER_08]: So you have somebody who's looking up and out and at the big picture and then you have somebody who's looking

[02:13:32] [SPEAKER_08]: You know in and down at everybody else. So while kelly brimbor is

[02:13:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Saying right we have this huge mission. This is our direction and I expect everything from you

[02:13:43] [SPEAKER_08]: It's the nco it's the you know, it's the sergeant or it's the you know, whatever the you know

[02:13:48] [SPEAKER_08]: The manager under the director what have you?

[02:13:51] [SPEAKER_08]: Who's hey, it's cool, right? You know, yeah, the boss is just thinking big thoughts

[02:13:56] [SPEAKER_08]: But we got to do our work and so it was a just a nice

[02:13:59] [SPEAKER_08]: It was very relatable. Uh the the scene

[02:14:03] [SPEAKER_08]: uh, so

[02:14:05] [SPEAKER_04]: I hear you. Yep. I hear you

[02:14:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, so he's gonna work them night and day now

[02:14:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Is that going to work out?

[02:14:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Not very well

[02:14:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Probably even if you're serially long gv I have to assume that a certain amount of rest is necessary, right? Right?

[02:14:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, a new team up is up next

[02:14:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Elrond arrives in lindon to plead for

[02:14:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Gilgallad to send forces to a reggaon. He refuses saying he believes this is a construction of saran

[02:14:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Galadriel is released from captivity by the orcs

[02:14:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Adar

[02:14:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Offers an alliance against saran who watches the forge swirl medals together

[02:14:50] [SPEAKER_08]: so, um

[02:14:52] [SPEAKER_08]: We have a ticking clock now for the rest of the season

[02:14:56] [SPEAKER_08]: Right. We have these orcs marshaling and I I thought

[02:15:01] [SPEAKER_08]: for much just my

[02:15:03] [SPEAKER_08]: TV watching brain of this was like oh well, this is kind of convenient

[02:15:06] [SPEAKER_08]: Anatar is going to commit his final crime and then he's got the cleanup, you know

[02:15:11] [SPEAKER_08]: he's got all these orcs to come in here to like wipe everything out and destroy all the evidence and

[02:15:16] [SPEAKER_08]: Destroy any other possibilities of you know forging or what have you so whether it's adar or you know

[02:15:23] [SPEAKER_08]: anatar

[02:15:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Sauron's

[02:15:26] [SPEAKER_08]: things that's what's going to happen is right a reggaon is going to get wiped out and

[02:15:31] [SPEAKER_08]: That's going to cause more chaos and uncertainty and doubt about what's really going on and and what's happened

[02:15:36] [SPEAKER_00]: With these rings. All right, then keep your secrets

[02:15:41] [SPEAKER_08]: All right, that makes me feel all right I picked up on something I also I was

[02:15:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Under the impression that

[02:15:49] [SPEAKER_02]: One of the reasons why the high king refused to send people to a reggaon is because the ships had already sailed

[02:15:56] [SPEAKER_08]: to mordor yeah

[02:15:58] [SPEAKER_08]: Is that that's that is that no? No, you're correct

[02:16:01] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, because that one general was saying we got a we got a sender now is the time like yeah

[02:16:06] [SPEAKER_02]: The last time we saw the high king that that was that was exactly

[02:16:11] [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't say he didn't say i'm not going to do that. He said that won't be possible

[02:16:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, that's right. Right, right fair point fair point. So um, does that orc with the baby the tall thin orc?

[02:16:23] [SPEAKER_08]: Does he have does it have they do they have a name?

[02:16:26] [SPEAKER_08]: Because I think you might have to add them to the show guide now john because that's like multiple appearances

[02:16:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know he seems to be at our first in command and he does have a name

[02:16:36] [SPEAKER_02]: But I don't think we'll be able to identify it until we're actually watching. Yeah

[02:16:41] [SPEAKER_04]: You know what's something that I do like about, you know since prime is being nice to us with screeners

[02:16:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll say it's something that I really like about the prime video player. They're not our sponsor, but

[02:16:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I do like they they do the x-ray thing where you can click up on their remote

[02:16:53] [SPEAKER_04]: It'll play you all the actors that has helped me very easy to do that

[02:16:57] [SPEAKER_08]: Wait, is it in the do we have it in our player? No, I when I go to do

[02:17:03] [SPEAKER_04]: The screen yeah for the actual yeah got it

[02:17:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just trying to envision how this is going to complicate gildedriel's

[02:17:13] [SPEAKER_02]: relationship with her

[02:17:18] [SPEAKER_10]: Not to mention elrond, I mean talk about

[02:17:21] [SPEAKER_08]: Confirmation bias. This is the sound of my hands rubbing together gleefully

[02:17:26] [SPEAKER_04]: I have I have a theory now and I haven't watched ahead. So it's really mine. Oh good for you

[02:17:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I I think that this is how they're going to explain her going to lothlórien

[02:17:35] [SPEAKER_04]: I think she's gonna get exiled from the kingdoms

[02:17:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay

[02:17:39] [SPEAKER_04]: From the kingdom of the noldor and she's going to go out and forge a new path with the sylvan elves

[02:17:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I like it. Well, I guess the prior question is is she going to accept his offer of allyship? Yeah

[02:17:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah

[02:17:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I think so

[02:17:54] [SPEAKER_02]: It's exciting. I'll be very interested to see i'll be very interested to see that's what i'm saying this episode man

[02:18:01] [SPEAKER_08]: It was like it's and it uh, it's like all these things are coming together

[02:18:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Does she even know that anathar is working with kelo brimbor at this point? She strongly suspects it right?

[02:18:13] [SPEAKER_04]: She's the one who's been pushing like hey, he's going to manipulate

[02:18:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh kelo brimbor, he's focused he needs rings. He she said that he needs rings not armies. Yeah

[02:18:23] [SPEAKER_02]: But they never had any actual confirmation that the bridges blown how brand showed up at oregion

[02:18:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, she's also been seeing visions of kelo brimbor. Yeah

[02:18:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I think i'm pretty sure she you know while not having actual, you know someone telling her this

[02:18:41] [SPEAKER_08]: She's convinced in her own mind. Yeah, csi middle earth starring detective gladriel

[02:18:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Do do do do another salon order, whoopsies, but it's also i'm i'm wondering how they're going to work it out

[02:18:54] [SPEAKER_02]: that this

[02:18:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Clearly hostile orc army following the commands of adar

[02:19:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Are actually going to serve the purposes of sauron in the end

[02:19:06] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean yes to take down the guaidim yrdain or will they you can make you can keep finding orcs places

[02:19:13] [SPEAKER_02]: But can you are there any orcs around other than adar's children we don't know

[02:19:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we don't know. Yeah, and is numinor going to be getting involved with this

[02:19:23] [SPEAKER_08]: At all again, right because they've already gone out once and they didn't have a good experience

[02:19:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So and they seem to have plenty on their plates right now without going back to middle earth just at the moment

[02:19:35] [SPEAKER_08]: beautiful final shot of that or one of the final shots of that, uh the forge and again

[02:19:41] [SPEAKER_08]: Goes back to that eye motif, uh that we we get constantly so another record scratch for anatar

[02:19:47] [SPEAKER_04]: You're probably wondering how I got here

[02:19:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Which also leads me to wonder how they're going to depict him making the one

[02:19:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes

[02:19:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes

[02:19:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I mean how many times in the opening of lord of the rings are they like forged in the fires of mount doom?

[02:20:02] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, we know the location there. Yeah, well because the forge is going to be um

[02:20:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Conceivably from what they've given us in the show right is is that oregano's gonna get um messed up a little bit

[02:20:13] [SPEAKER_08]: So the forge is going to be destroyed. So

[02:20:15] [SPEAKER_10]: But he might take the anvil back

[02:20:21] [SPEAKER_04]: They've shown us that the anvil is not attached to the ground

[02:20:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And we have feyin orz hammer there

[02:20:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Just saying I think it'll be awesome if they have him forger with feyin orz hammer. That would be really cool

[02:20:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, right

[02:20:37] [SPEAKER_08]: Very cool. Now that and and with uh the dagger because the dagger is and is is uh the material for the three elven rings

[02:20:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but they don't have that anymore. I mean no no

[02:20:48] [SPEAKER_08]: But the elbow like I just just using all of these these parts and pieces from the first age

[02:20:53] [SPEAKER_08]: You know being broken up and and mixed into the second age stuff

[02:20:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, I was picturing using the hammer as a tool not as a yeah

[02:20:59] [SPEAKER_08]: No, no, no, like i'm just saying yeah all of these things

[02:21:03] [SPEAKER_08]: Filtering out into the into the coming in together. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah got it got it

[02:21:10] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I think we're at the end

[02:21:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Only like two and a half hours this one, right?

[02:21:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean good. All right. So I I think it's a good sign of how good an episode it is

[02:21:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Definitely. Yeah. Yeah, I like the episode the more we talked about it. Yeah, sometimes that happens

[02:21:26] [SPEAKER_04]: So, um we have uh, I actually did a schedule this week so I can actually just read off of it which is nice

[02:21:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Here's the other stuff we're doing. We know we have a lot of new subscribers. Go ahead. Yeah, we're just gonna say

[02:21:37] [SPEAKER_08]: Um, remember to check the show notes for the link tree if you're interested in the season pass

[02:21:43] [SPEAKER_08]: And remember we have a discord and channel set up for all the different episodes

[02:21:48] [SPEAKER_08]: So you can go there and get into and have conversations with everybody who's good conversations happening

[02:21:53] [SPEAKER_08]: And uh l otr at the lorehounds.com for feedback. I don't know what we're not going to do a feedback episode next week

[02:22:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's see the volume. Let's see volume. All right. Yeah, fair enough. I think there's already about half a dozen that didn't get in

[02:22:06] [SPEAKER_04]: So all right. Well, we'll see we'll see

[02:22:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, um, I do want to also add

[02:22:11] [SPEAKER_04]: If you want to help us climb the rankings and find new listeners you can leave us a five-star nice review

[02:22:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Usually people only use review leave reviews when they're mad about something we said

[02:22:21] [SPEAKER_04]: So I i'm gonna tell people please leave us nice reviews so that other people know that we we say nice things too

[02:22:27] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, we haven't we haven't um been talking about that aspect of of liking and reviewing because yeah

[02:22:33] [SPEAKER_08]: It makes a big difference on apple. You don't understand how big a difference it does

[02:22:38] [SPEAKER_08]: So if you can take a moment

[02:22:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah

[02:22:42] [SPEAKER_04]: so

[02:22:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Here's our weekly schedule on the lorehounds main feed. We've got this

[02:22:49] [SPEAKER_04]: We already did a feedback episode for uh, the first four episodes

[02:22:53] [SPEAKER_04]: and we've got

[02:22:55] [SPEAKER_04]: The dc eu is dead long live the dcu and else worlds

[02:23:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Whatever that is

[02:23:03] [SPEAKER_04]: That's from alicia. I guess it's a funeral for

[02:23:06] [SPEAKER_04]: The dc cinematic universe the dc extended year is an expanded universe. I don't know. It doesn't matter. It's dead

[02:23:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and by the way, you can find all this on our main feed

[02:23:17] [SPEAKER_04]: So if you're on the tolkien feed just follow the link for in the show notes and it's the first link in there

[02:23:22] [SPEAKER_04]: And the agatha all along prep recap and who's who podcast is also coming out on the main feed

[02:23:28] [SPEAKER_04]: That's there's gonna be full coverage of that on the main feed from jaune and alicia

[02:23:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Alicia is going to be spearheading this season. I think she's very into the witchy lore

[02:23:39] [SPEAKER_04]: She's very into the wandavision lore. So uh and jaune of course staple of the mc universe

[02:23:46] [SPEAKER_04]: And uh also on our patreon super cast

[02:23:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Subscriptions, these are our recurring subscriptions only so you can change over to a recurring subscription if you're on a season pass right now

[02:23:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, we have the rings of power lore cast for season two episode five

[02:24:02] [SPEAKER_04]: That one's also on the season pass. So I should have led with that one first

[02:24:06] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's going to be on numenorian politics and history this week

[02:24:12] [SPEAKER_04]: And we've got second breakfast number 23 on bagels. So if you are a subscriber, please send in your bagel feedback

[02:24:20] [SPEAKER_02]: That's becoming a very interesting discussion on the discord

[02:24:24] [SPEAKER_04]: You know once you start talking about schmears

[02:24:27] [SPEAKER_04]: I think I think you're you're on the right track

[02:24:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, not too much of the schmears just yet, but i'm sure it's waiting in the wings

[02:24:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, all right

[02:24:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Um now I want to talk about our new affiliate david you you do a good pitch for them

[02:24:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Why don't you talk about never mind the music and what they've just put out?

[02:24:44] [SPEAKER_08]: We're pretty excited about this. This is mark and nicole. The mark is a they're both uh, um

[02:24:53] [SPEAKER_08]: Professors he's a music professor. She is uh, a psychology professor

[02:24:57] [SPEAKER_08]: their friends, uh

[02:25:00] [SPEAKER_08]: They got together and do this podcast where they'll will take a song

[02:25:03] [SPEAKER_08]: And then they'll start to talk about it mark will talk about it from a music, uh perspective and then

[02:25:10] [SPEAKER_08]: Nicole brings in all this other interesting stuff and it is a fascinating conversation

[02:25:15] [SPEAKER_08]: They're fun. They're light-hearted. They have a good time

[02:25:19] [SPEAKER_08]: and uh, it's just

[02:25:22] [SPEAKER_08]: Lorehound kind of stuff. It's the kind of stuff that our community loves

[02:25:25] [SPEAKER_08]: It's like oh I never thought about this song in that way. I've never thought about

[02:25:30] [SPEAKER_08]: You know how yugin psychology plays into you know a pop song of

[02:25:35] [SPEAKER_08]: Different kinds they have a huge wide eclectic range of music

[02:25:40] [SPEAKER_08]: They're going to be covering songs from the 60s 70s 80s 90s 2000s

[02:25:44] [SPEAKER_08]: and um

[02:25:46] [SPEAKER_08]: We're just really excited that they're part of our network now. They're really fun to talk to you on our main feed

[02:25:52] [SPEAKER_08]: we have an interview where john alicia and I have a nice sort of

[02:25:58] [SPEAKER_08]: 20-minute half an hour conversation with them about the podcast and then their first three episodes are out now on their

[02:26:05] [SPEAKER_08]: Feed which is called never mind the music never mind one word the music

[02:26:10] [SPEAKER_08]: Link in the show notes. Um go to our webpage to find it

[02:26:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Or just search in your in your podcast player for never mind the music

[02:26:18] [SPEAKER_08]: It's I think you guys are going to love it because it's right up lorehound's alley

[02:26:23] [SPEAKER_08]: But it's just about music

[02:26:25] [SPEAKER_04]: And to pitch it to my other you know, it's funny mark called me a high millennial because I'm right smack in the middle of the millennial generation

[02:26:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Like a high elf right exactly

[02:26:36] [SPEAKER_04]: So to speak to my other high millennials

[02:26:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, that's what you get by paramour is the first song they cover and that really sang to my soul

[02:26:47] [SPEAKER_04]: I think mark knew he was playing his audience when he sent us that as a sample, right? Right, right

[02:26:53] [SPEAKER_04]: All right, and you can listen to the three the first three episodes on their feed right now

[02:26:57] [SPEAKER_04]: You can find that in the link tree as well

[02:26:59] [SPEAKER_04]: That's what you get the sign and the crossroads

[02:27:02] [SPEAKER_04]: So, uh a lot of and and those are the full titles

[02:27:06] [SPEAKER_04]: We for example, it's that's what you get by paramour and the motivic limbic system

[02:27:11] [SPEAKER_04]: You know like these are these are really good crossovers with psychology and I think that's really impressive

[02:27:17] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh the sign by ace of base and young's collective parallel minor

[02:27:21] [SPEAKER_08]: Mm-hmm and uh the crossroads by

[02:27:24] [SPEAKER_08]: bone thugs in harmony and four rhythms of grief

[02:27:29] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh my someone call niana

[02:27:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Seriously

[02:27:33] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, maybe she wrote the song. Yeah. Yeah, I can't wait for um, a spandale ballet

[02:27:39] [SPEAKER_08]: ballet and uh money notes of middle class school dance. I don't know what that means, but i'm ready for it

[02:27:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my don't don't announce them too early, but you gotta no no, no, I just had to get that one

[02:27:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I just had to get that one. All right. All right

[02:27:55] [SPEAKER_04]: all right, so um

[02:27:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Real quickly, let's do our thank yous david

[02:27:59] [SPEAKER_04]: I still have uh, I still have the 80s dance music loaded up and it works for me

[02:28:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's hype this up again throw anything at 80s at me. I'm good. Here we go

[02:28:09] [SPEAKER_08]: All right

[02:28:10] [SPEAKER_08]: I feel like i'm back at the club

[02:28:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Our discord server boosters

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[02:29:51] [SPEAKER_08]: So no matter where you are in that mix. Thank you for sticking with us and uh, we'll see you on the next episode

[02:29:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you

[02:30:01] [SPEAKER_04]: The lore hounds podcast is produced and published by the lore hounds

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