The Rings of Power - S02E07 - Doomed to Die

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Hey Mark, I was listening to Paramore the other day and it really made me think about the amygdala and the limbic system.

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_01]: You just made those words up didn't you?

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_04]: What? Paramore?

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We're the nevermind the music podcast, where one musician...

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_04]: And one psychologist...

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Talk songwriting and the mind. One song at a time.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll hear everything from Green Day and Outcast...

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_01]: To Stevie Wonder and Do Alipa.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_04]: And we mostly try to stay on topic.

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Except for when we don't want to.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Nevermind the music wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Can we pour one out for Damra? No.

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_04]: No.

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I'd rather not.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Not really.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to The Rings of Power podcast, where the Lorehounds your guides to Tolkien's world of middle-earth.

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm David.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm John.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_09]: And I'm Marilyn.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_09]: This is our coverage for primed videos original series The Lord of the Rings, The Rings of Power,

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_09]: season two at the so-de-seven.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_03]: In this podcast, we're going to start off with our hot takes and then we will get into our detailed

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_03]: scene by scene breakdown of the episode.

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_06]: If you'd like to contact us and email us to LOTR at the Lorehounds.com

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_06]: If you want to join our Discord server or support the community on a supercaster Patreon,

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_06]: you can find the link tree in this show notes below.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you are not into recurring subscriptions, but you want to support the podcast,

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_03]: you can find a link to our season pass.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a pretty good deal. 10 bucks flat.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_03]: You get ad-free episodes, are the weekly bonus lorecast where we dig deeper into the legendarium.

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And you get the you get access to the one guide to rule them all.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Our hand forged visual guide to the season.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And that just as a reminder, you'll have that feed forever.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, that's everything it's in there will be yours for the end.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_06]: It may be the heat death of the universe, my.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, thanks.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_07]: Most of them.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_03]: They must end.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Serial, longevity.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Let us get right into it.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_03]: This was a hell of an episode.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_03]: What did you think?

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, it was intense.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_09]: It was intense.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_09]: There was no opening Howard Shore Music, which was amulently appropriate to the tone.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_09]: I didn't know that.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_09]: That's one thing I pay attention to.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_09]: They're weaving the story threads together in new patterns,

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_09]: nothing particularly any way suppose.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_09]: But in this instance, in particular, I'm really wondering how they're going to sort

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_09]: all this out or not with next week's final episodes for season two.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, Golly, I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of to be continues.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_03]: They have a lot to bring together.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, for sure.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_09]: I also wanted to mention something that I almost missed from the previous episode,

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_03]: which we'll see that for a second.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_03]: We're just doing our hot dates right now.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_09]: It's, there's plenty of things I kind of go into away from on screen.

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_09]: There's certain interaction between two particular characters, which is almost

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_09]: sick making in some respects, particularly if one is experienced gas lighting of one's.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_09]: And there's also, you know, some really exciting moments and

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_09]: the visuals spectacular.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, it's there they're they're firing on all cylinders.

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_09]: Um, whatever I think about the direction they might not be going in.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_09]: So we shall see John.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_06]: The first time I watched it, I really liked it.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_06]: I had my one big argument getting me moment.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I had one, but they're different and we're going to talk about them.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, interesting.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_06]: It's, it's the arrow for you, right?

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's the arrow for me.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_03]: It's for you.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_06]: It's the, yes, we know.

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to defend the arrow real quick.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, no, no, no, save it.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_06]: No, no, no, save it.

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to defend it real quick because I can't let the cylinder go on.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't want to.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't want to need shadow of more door and shadow of war.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_06]: That's like a tactic used to invade or camps.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_06]: And I love that they that it's in motion.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that's an interesting little link in the podcast.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_06]: I feel like somebody played that game was like, we should put that in the show.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_03]: That's cool.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, okay, that respect respect.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I like that.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, I, I thought, you know, the first time I watched it,

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_06]: came away and I was like, well, that was basically just one big battle.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_06]: And then I said to you today, should we just do character by character?

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Because it's it's really just one big battle.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_06]: And you were like, it's not really just one big battle.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_06]: And I go back and I watch it again to recap it.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_06]: I was like, oh, there's a lot in here that doesn't battle.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_11]: That's right.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_11]: That's right.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_06]: It also makes me think this is going to go down.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_06]: It's the battle episode, right?

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Like no matter what, no matter what.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_06]: This is just going to be the battle episode.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_09]: I actually forgot a couple of things that happened.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, me too until I wrote it down.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Because the battle is the curtain for the whole episode.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_03]: It's the, it's the boundary space of the episode.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_06]: It's our safe zone.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_06]: We keep returning to.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, well, we keep returning to it anyway.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm not sure if it's a safe zone.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_09]: But any matter of it.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, anyway, I think really, really great episode.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_06]: And I actually softened on my criticism.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_06]: No, it's okay.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_06]: I actually was convinced that it was, it was fine writing.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't love it.

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_06]: I wish they didn't do it.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_06]: But I was more convinced of it the second time.

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_06]: I think yes.

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway, David, your thoughts?

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I was blown away by this episode on multiple levels.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_03]: On one level, I was really surprised at how gritty they were really willing to take

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_03]: the storyline and literally bring us down into the mud.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_03]: This has been high fantasy and a little bit of politically intrigued.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of character development to stuff.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And then they just took this one right down to, you know,

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_03]: well, actually I want to say it a little bit differently.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_03]: High fantasy where oh, things are up here and we're talking about,

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_03]: oh, the fate of the world.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_03]: No, it's a, it's all very important to and stuff.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And we're very important people in this very important world.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And then they come back down and then they're just slugging it out.

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_03]: It's dark.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a gritty.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_03]: It's brutal.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And I just loved that range of going from high fantasy to just really brutal and gritty

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_03]: and the stakes, and there are costs that have to be paid.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I, a couple of just side notes that I wanted to mention just really quickly in general.

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I've heard some people drumbling, oh, this is too much Jackson in our movies

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_03]: and stuff like that.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And I just wanted to, you know, one of the things that I kind of like about this is that

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_03]: and we've talked about this, this show is walking a whole bunch of, this is show isn't just for

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Tolkien, you know, book people.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_03]: And this show isn't just for Jackson.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_03]: This isn't just for superficial fans.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_03]: This is for, this show is for a whole lot of people.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think they're doing a really good job of balancing the visual styles of what

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_03]: we've already had in making a seamless world.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_03]: So no matter what your entry point is, you can follow this story and there's some continuity

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_03]: across productions.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's really good.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And I also kind of a little bit, this, right, there's, there's the, obviously, the, the crazy

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_03]: people out on the internet who, who, you know, they'll burn anything down because they can

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_03]: burn it down, whatever.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_03]: But for everyone else, I would just remember, you know, the Tom shipy test which is what

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_03]: did the show runners have to do to get a visual adaptation onto the screen.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And did that, that test is, do we have the message of the intent of the author?

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_03]: But it got changed form.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_03]: That's fine.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Did we mean, did we meet what the author was trying to intend?

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And I know for some people there's something that they like and something that they don't

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_03]: like, but does it work ultimately to tell the story not on a mechanical piece by mechanical

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_03]: piece level, but on the whole?

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And I have to say this show is doing that, right.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And I get criticism and personal takes and I don't know, I like this, but by and large,

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_03]: like, I think these guys are doing a okay job.

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's a show, a season of television takes time to grow.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think coming to this episode, the amount of the trajectory of growth is tremendous

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_03]: that they can go kind of high fantasy stuff in a little bit of D&D.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to fight some raids and you know, we're in a digs of mines to then this kind of

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_03]: battle with this kind of choreography, with this kind of stakes involved.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I think is showing a lot of command of the material and maturity.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_03]: They are, the show runners on their own arc.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think we can, I'm seeing an upward trajectory, Marilyn, you wanted to chime in on something.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, it's something I posted in one of the discord somewhere that it's important to remember

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_09]: that the second age material that we have is far more analistic.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_09]: Is a novel?

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_09]: Or a set of stories.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_09]: So we have specific points, you know, event, an elusive event, if you will, this happened

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_09]: and then this happened in the next one.

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_09]: But there's not always a lot of connected tissue at or for or filling out.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_09]: And so in some respects, this is actually a more difficult task.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_09]: Pretty to the screen.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_09]: That's a good point.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_09]: Then the Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit because they're complete stories, you have, you know,

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_03]: you don't have to, you can take the bricks apart and re-stack them in different ways.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_06]: And then the child log straight up from it, right?

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, and they will even if it's not in there.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_09]: And then they do that too here.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_09]: But the other thing I wanted to point out is you were distinguishing between high fantasy and the, the gritty.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, the second age is gritty.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_09]: I have not seen anything yet.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_09]: And I know my don't.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_09]: That was not specified in the few materials that we do have about the second age.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_09]: And about this particular event.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_09]: Now, the way it's happening has been changed somewhat.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_09]: But what happens?

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_03]: That's what's important.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_09]: They're absolutely following it.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_09]: So yeah, this is really gritty, violent, uncomfortable stuff.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_03]: And we hear about wars and we hear about conflict and great heroes doing great hero deeds in the face of, you know,

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_03]: the odds are stacked against all this stuff.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_03]: It's all, it's there.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And now we're actually really seeing it in this material and it's great.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_09]: And we are going to be talking about that, the whole idea of what is heroic courage.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_09]: And this is our Lordcast.

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_09]: Being surrounded as our Lordcast.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, excellent.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_03]: So it'll be perfect topic.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_03]: That's really cool.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_09]: You know, it's been instances of it throughout this episode.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I wanted to, you really brought something up from the depths of my mind.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I'm not sure.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_06]: Was it the watcher in the water?

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I actually this one's called supper.

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_06]: I like that you.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_06]: I like you bring up my fantasy because to me, high fantasy if done right does show personal

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_06]: stakes and does show the only thing that makes it high is that the overarching, the overarching plot

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_06]: is about the fit of the world.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_06]: The game of thrones is still high fantasy because you have the threat of the white

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_06]: walkers that could wipe out humanity, right?

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I do still high fantasy to me.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_06]: I think there's, there's many shrubs sub genres within high fantasy at this point.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's a pretty broad thing right now.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_06]: But the thing that really piece by universe was where you said, we're talking about how

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_06]: they're really doing a good job bringing people in this season.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think it's not that they're diverging from the lore more because I actually think

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_06]: they're closer to the lore this season in many respects.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_03]: I think you're right.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_06]: But I think the problem was in season one, at some points they did a good job portraying

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_06]: with Tolkien put on the page.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_06]: And at other points they did a poorer job portraying with Tolkien put on the page.

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_06]: At very few times did they do a good job putting together a coherent TV show?

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_06]: You know what I mean though?

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Making a TV show they were making a TV play about the works of JR Tolkien.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_06]: And this season is a TV show.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Feels TV doesn't it?

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I'm going to go out here.

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_06]: I've been talking my way about what I'm going to pick for my top ten of the year.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_06]: At this point, unless they royally screw up the finale,

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm putting this above house of the dragon season two.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_10]: Wow.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's operating at a higher level.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_06]: I think.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_06]: I think the dialogue is a little bit sharper in house of the dragon but dialogue does not

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_06]: make a show.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think that this season feels more consequential to this show and this universe

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_06]: than that season did.

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, it absolutely is because this is the crux of the second age is the forging of the ranks

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_09]: and perhaps what we're seeing.

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_09]: So, makes perfect sense.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And this show did something that house the dragon didn't do.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_03]: It gave us a big battle.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, are we forgetting rug left rest?

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_03]: That was not a big battle.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_03]: And it was a really battle.

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_03]: That was not an ultimate episode battle.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Right now.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_03]: So, something that I want to agree with you, John, about this operating as a television show.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And that is Miradania, Iran dear.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, I know there might be a question mark about there but anyway, damn rod.

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_03]: El Ron's horse, a thumb.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_03]: We actually, there are stakes.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_03]: There are things on the line and there are costs that are paid.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And they delivered that in an episode seven, penultimate episode.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_03]: That is television.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_03]: That is something that I want to television.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I want to season to flow so that just before the season ends, I have experienced something.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_03]: And my characters have gone through things and they have, you know, plummed new deaths or

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_03]: reach new heights or there are certain characters that are not going to be coming along with

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_03]: us any further.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And that is something that house of the dragon season two didn't do.

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Unfortunately, and we know there is a lot of problem.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not blaming a condol or anybody else because I know studio was involved in a bunch

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_03]: of other things.

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that still, they still had to strike and, and you know, it was a good season.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm more comfortable with my things.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_06]: It brings a power than I am insulting how to agreed.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Agreed.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_03]: So, I think all in all, and then damn rod.

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, like that was amazing.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_06]: That was great.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Special effects.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_03]: So there's a, yeah, like the arrow bothered me.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_03]: I was fine with the kiss.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_03]: We'll talk about it.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And I just don't know how they're going to wrap up with eight.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And that means something.

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_03]: If I'm sitting there going, what are they going to do?

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Who's going to wait?

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, she's got the rings.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_03]: She's taken off.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Around here.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Addar.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, Gil Gallaudet.

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll write like, where are heroes?

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_03]: What's going on?

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I am left in a state of, I don't know what the trajectory of any of these characters

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_03]: are where they're headed and then how they're going to bring that all into a conclusion for the season.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_03]: That is a really good thing.

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm very pleased with this episode overall.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I liked the arrow.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_09]: So we'll balance each other out.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_09]: We can't wait to hear about this arrow.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_09]: Gone by me.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_06]: So I was getting attention for it the second time I watched it because you complained about it.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_06]: But I was like, I'm going to make sure I, because I didn't even, well, I didn't blink at it the first time, right?

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Sure.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_06]: I expect pyro techniques from the elves at this point.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Sure.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_06]: I think they're, it's, we'll talk about it.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I expected pyro techniques from the elves a lot sooner than we actually got them.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_09]: But I think this was the show where I was waiting until after dark when they would be particularly spectacular.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_09]: That's true.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_09]: I thought that was a very poor tactical decision.

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_03]: So just a couple of details before we get into our scene by seeing, thank you to everyone who has been a subscriber to the season pass.

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_03]: It's been a very successful thing.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you to all of our new regular subscribers.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_03]: If you're a season pass,

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Holder and you can still buy that at any point.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_03]: You get access to our lore casts.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_03]: We have done a lore cast on the politics of Numenor on Tom Bombay.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_03]: We have a video on the Maya on Orcs vs. Orok.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Oroks and next up, Marilyn, what is it again?

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_03]: The circle of light.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And that is all about courage in the face of overall knowledge.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Got it.

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_03]: And how that plays a role in Tolken's writing and then with what we're getting on screen here.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's going to be very cool.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_03]: This is the one I know, I have no idea what you're planning.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I haven't looked at your outlook document.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm really excited for this.

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_03]: The show guide, John, you got the episode 7 ready to go for everybody.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Sure do.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Super exciting.

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Reminder screeners.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_03]: We don't have subtitles or titles while we're reporting.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And feedback, we're going to do feedback.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_03]: This week, Nancy M is on the case.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_03]: The document is ready.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_03]: We've got a couple of voice mails.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_03]: If you want to send us a voice mail, use the voice memo app on your phone and just send it.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_03]: To the LOTR at the Lorentz.com email address or use the little voice mail recorder feature on our website.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_09]: And within the next 12 hours, please.

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_03]: So and we're going to be recording that tomorrow.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, I guess then you can't do it in the next 12 hours because of the two.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, right. Yes.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_03]: You can't do it in the next 12 hours.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay. Listen, listen, if you want to send feedback, you still can't.

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_06]: We'll do more at the end of the season.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Of course we will.

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to do a follow up episode and we have a special.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_03]: We're planning something very fun and special for that.

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think we're going to do something with Mark from never mind the music.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, it should be fun.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_03]: No, Rada.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_03]: So let's get straight into the scene by scene.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, no, you had an errada.

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_09]: I wasn't an errada. It was just an observation.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_06]: That was still perfect.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_09]: I wasn't sure.

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_09]: I had missed.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_09]: From the previous episode,

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_09]: I didn't record a mean until after we recorded when Sauron slices his palm.

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, yeah. I don't say if it's safe. We're going to talk about it.

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, they're not going to talk about the connection that I made.

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_09]: Which is, will you, the dark wizard?

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Can you bring it up then?

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Can you bring it up then?

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_09]: I can certainly bring it up when we talk about it.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Great. Great.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Because I think it's, uh...

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_09]: Sorry, listen, there's David just wants you to sit and sit.

[00:19:04] Okay.

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think it'll be a nice segue into it.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Because that'll open up the whole conversation about the blood and the...

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Fair enough?

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_06]: I've been watching interview with the vampire much

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_06]: of the delight of Alicia.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_06]: And so now I can't talk about blood without...

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_06]: I was burning up my favorite vampires

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_06]: who just yell at each other for a century.

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_06]: John, when he leads us through to the S,

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_06]: to Eregion, to the Promised Land,

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_06]: nine rings for mortal men as where we start.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Killer Brembrour forges the nine rings of men using the, quote,

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_06]: mythril given to him by Sauron.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_06]: Before noticing the pattern of a mouse going across the floor

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_06]: and a mistake in the illusory hammer of Fainar.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Anatar asks when the rings of men will be ready

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_06]: and Killer Brembrour answers a few more days for perfection.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Sauron, the men's at their time together is coming to an end

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_06]: and walks out into a besieged Eregion.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_09]: So I wasn't really clear what they were doing with the whole hammer thing.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_09]: It's a supposed hammer of Fainar.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_09]: His Sauron already copped the real one or what?

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_06]: I, to me, what happened with it could have been the real one

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_06]: or it could have been a fake.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_06]: But the whole point was it needed to be like clean and pristine

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_06]: and like ready to go and start on distracted by the war

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_06]: his illusion is starting to slip.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, I, okay.

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm not remembering.

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm noticing for affections.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_06]: There was a missing jewel.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_09]: There was a missing jewel.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_09]: No, I caught that.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_06]: He looked back down at it and in the middle of the sentence

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_06]: there was a very good.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Right, right, right.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_09]: I didn't think that what he was looking at looked like

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_09]: what we saw in season one somehow.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_09]: It looked different to, it had the leather wrapped around it.

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, maybe that was what he did when he decided

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_09]: he was actually going to use it.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you got it.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_06]: You got to protect.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_06]: You got your PPE, right?

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_06]: You got to make sure that you're all prepared.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_03]: So maybe we should talk about the hand and the

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_03]: hand and the hand.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Because we missed the

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_03]: myth rule and that, that we, last episode, we missed him

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_03]: cutting his hand.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And then later giving the jar of, of, crushed

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_03]: myth rule.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_03]: We didn't, we, we missed that connection.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And then we also missed the mouse.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Because there was a mouse in the last episode

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_03]: as well.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And these are all these, you know things that,

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_03]: that, that's sour on our up to you.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_09]: The thing for me, I've made the connection that when he cut his palm it was to do some kind of mega magic.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_09]: And I assumed that that was only, you know, putting Kele Bittenbor in the beautiful bubbles that

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_09]: when the world is still his ideas can flow freely, as he said.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_09]: Right.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_09]: Some blood magic.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_09]: But at the time, I wish I had made the connection that, of course, this is exactly what

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_09]: happens with dark wizard and crune.

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, with the white wings.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_09]: With the white wings.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_09]: He has one of the acolytes cut their palm in order to boost the blood to bring

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_09]: one of the white wings back in embodied form.

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_09]: And so there's a really powerful connection between South-Ron and the dark wizard

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_09]: because the three white wings of the first season were looking for South-Ron's return.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_09]: And had been said to out-define him and had all this information.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_09]: So it definitely to my mind implies that at some point South-Ron was in ruin working with

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_09]: the dark wizard.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_09]: Otherwise, why would they be dedicated to South-Ron?

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_09]: Why would they have learned all this magic?

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_06]: Good question.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Although, South-Ron was the second most famous villain in Middle-Earth for the first

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_06]: stage, right?

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, there's, there is calls for him to have notoriety.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, sure.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_09]: But this is more direct.

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, this is teaching him.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I agree with you.

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_09]: My magical working.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_09]: So that didn't think I happened when he was still crawling around as a slime monster.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_03]: So were the two blue wizards given the mission to go fix things post more-dough?

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Was that part of their...

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_09]: Not precisely they were asked to go out to ruin because they were was concerned about

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_09]: South-Ron messing around in that region.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_09]: And corrupting the humans in ruin.

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_03]: So does that plays into your...

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_09]: That would work, that would work into that very nicely.

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_09]: It would...

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_09]: But the implication was, the two of them went out and in one version, they both changed

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_09]: his secret cults in evil.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_09]: In the other version, they both were good, quote unquote,

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_09]: and accomplishes much as they could.

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_09]: But failed in Safari's, you know, they were killed or whatever,

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_09]: they didn't completely stop the spread of South-Ron's influence.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_09]: But they stayed it enough so that when the third-age battles came along,

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_09]: there were many fewer human armies marching to South-Ron's aid

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_09]: when the West had to confront him at last.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_06]: They're playing a little extra jazz here because we have a clear cut mission for the

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Estauderate in the third-age where they're told go and stem the influence of Sauron going

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_06]: to help unite the people's middle or the against him, you know,

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_06]: persuade them to join forces more than actually fight yourselves.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_06]: In the second-age, it's even in the writing is a question whether anybody went in the second-age

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_06]: any of the Estari.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_06]: And where they did go, it's not necessarily clear what their mission was.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. So they have room to play jazz.

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_06]: They have room in room.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_09]: But this was one of Tolkien's speculations and one of his letters.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_09]: To a reader who was asking questions about wizards.

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_03]: So something that I'm really enjoying with this ring-lord,

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_03]: I think this was a question, John, that I had asked a couple of times when we

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_03]: started my last thing.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_03]: It was like, I wanted to know where there are the rings, how did the rings get made,

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_03]: what who got, what, what, what, like I had a whole bunch of details and this is what the show

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_03]: is giving us, right? So it's like this was cool. We're seeing the rings being forged.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think what's really cool that I'm enjoying from my television viewer standpoint

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_03]: is the three kind of levels of the rings.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_03]: The elf rings are only sort of maybe possibly tainted a little bit just because

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Salron was kind of near enough to the process and involves around adjacent.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Salron adjacent. The door rings got a spell on him because he touched the

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_03]: ring, he was really thrilled before dropping it into the, you know, to get it molten.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And he obviously would cast some magic on it. But then the human rings are full on Salron blood,

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_03]: which gives us the Nazgul, right? He has total control over the men,

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_03]: where from the doors to the, from the elves to the dwarves to the men,

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_03]: there's this increasing gradient of his ability to corrupt and control them.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_03]: And I just think that's so cool. And I don't know how much there is in the lore.

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't think there is that much. No, it's, this is a show creation.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_09]: But it's either like the creation of it. From from the television viewer standpoint,

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_09]: particularly for those who are not wedded to the lore, it is, they are following the order

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_09]: of the ring versus. Yeah. Three rings to the oven kings said, right, the door floor is

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_09]: different. So that seems to have been there frame. In the lore, it was just a whole bunch

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_09]: of rings that the elven SNPs had made as essays in the craft as Tolkien puts it. So they're just

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_09]: happened to be that many rings that had not been taken away or destroyed or whatever. And so Salron

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_09]: just scooped a lot and then distributed him on his own amongst, you know, various doors and

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_06]: and various humans. Yeah, they've also really, he really implicated Telugu, we're all

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_06]: more than he is in the lore. Absolutely rings. Telugu, more forges in the lore are the elven rings.

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_06]: The three out of fourges are apart from Salron, which is why they were so uncrupted. And he was just

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_06]: after all the other rings are made. Exactly. When when Salron realizes this has happened that

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_06]: he's furious because he's like this guy used my ring lore to make private rings. And so I also

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_06]: to me, there were many other rings. There were a lot of draft rings, right? Exactly. And

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_06]: right, yeah. And so when Bilbo finds the ring, the one ring, Gandalf's not immediately concerned

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_06]: because he says, I don't remember if he said it in the Hobbit or the ring's break, he goes, there

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_09]: were many magic rings. Exactly. Exactly. And all of them to my mind, perilous for mortals.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Right, right. So he's concerned but he's like, it's mine, my concerns for the wizard of my

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_09]: kind. And you kind of have to have that from the Lord of the Rings perspective because otherwise,

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_09]: Gandalf will be incredibly culpable for not going right away and saying, oh, look at how we

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_06]: got to take care of this world. In fairness, he did go to Salron Monk, right? And Salron Monk was like,

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_09]: you know, it's fine. But that was like 20, 30, 30 years after. So I don't wonder

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_03]: this is my head, Gandalf. That part of the pitch that Paine and McKay made to the estate

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_03]: and to Amazon was we're going to fill this part out and you know, and we're going to level,

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, the elves, the dwarves and the men are going to have these different effects of Salron,

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, in their forging. I like this show creation. I think it's cool. They played it out

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_03]: well on screen given the way that the circumstances of when and how the rings were being forged

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_03]: and how how how how brand was trying to get in and then he came comes back as Anatar and all of that.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I really liked this is sort of my head, Gandalf. This is what sold the estate on giving the green

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_03]: light this particular aspect that the men got blood, the dwarves got a spell and the elves were just

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_03]: sort of adjacent. Oh, could be, it could be. It is it's entirely just sort of my own little tinfoil

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_09]: world, but you know. But I really like what I really liked about this scene is for all the horror of it

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_09]: and the artificiality of it. We do get to see Calibran mode as a creator in an undisturbed sense

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_09]: and he is in an environment in which he can reach the epitome of his own capacity as a creator

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_09]: and in his line where he says, um, when the world is still the ideas flow freely,

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_09]: my work is to let them share the secrets of their song, which tied me right back to, of course,

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_09]: the song of the Lillatar and the founding and, you know, in a quote unquote perfect world

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_09]: where he wasn't the Lord of Rageon and the sister, I didn't have to deal with all this other stuff

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_09]: and could just simply focus on his craft. He can create things that are as close to perfect as

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_09]: one can be in this world and it was lovely to see, but it also in some respects is more elish to me.

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_09]: You know, I've had a hard time with the series because it's very, very hard to create

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_09]: elven characters that are elvish in their culture that aren't really human as well.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_09]: And of course we are human, we relate to human beings so they are going to slide more towards

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_09]: the human and the scale. But in this one instance, I feel as though I saw the greatest elven crafts

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_09]: person of all time at the height of his power and I've ended very touching even if it was

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_06]: quote unquote artificially brought about. You know, I'll just say that a Gil Gallaud

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_06]: wander into the battle felt pretty eloofed to me. Well, you know what he was, he was part of

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_09]: no, he was part of the charge, John, I'm not sure you'd cut that. I know, I'm missing it. Yeah,

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm just, I'm just joking because Gil Gallaud is always like, I'm talking. Yes. Well, we'll talk

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_03]: about that more in the lower cast. The, um, that line to of letting things sing it also makes me think

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_03]: about, you know, you hear artisan, you know, artist, writers, musicians, when they're talking

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_03]: about their craft, how sometimes they're a conduit for a creation. Right. Exactly. And you know,

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_03]: that the shape of the statue was already in the stone and you just have to, you know, you're

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_03]: cutting it away or the song just I woke up and I broke down the lyrics and that was the song. And

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_03]: like, I don't know where it came from? I don't know how I got there. Just, you know, of just being this

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_03]: uh, this intermediary for it. And so, you know, him hearing the song that's embedded in them

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_03]: kind of reminded me of that, that same ethos. All right, well, we spent 15 minutes on the scenes

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_03]: so we should probably just thinking about it. I just say that, you know, if there's an on a tar

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_03]: out there who would like to create some peace in my world so I can just focus on podcasting and

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_03]: creating cool podcasting projects, I'll sell my soul. Let's find it. Yeah, but will you give up a

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_09]: thumb? Sure. Yeah. I don't need a thumb to record. Oh, the year. I could represent the

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_06]: perfection of Valinore, but three random people talking about the Lord of the Rings. They did

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_03]: foreshadow the cutter in this scene. Yeah, they do. Yeah. Yeah. I really like that. And no,

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_06]: commander, Amatar, Saran tells the people of Oregion that Khelebrenmore has ordered there to be

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_06]: no defense except the river. He confides in Miderdania that Khelebrenmore has lost his mind and she

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_06]: offers her assistance. He tells her she will be rewarded just before the Orcs begin to fire at

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_06]: the mountain to dam the river. The elves repair for a ground assault, Khelebrenmore draws a mark on a candle.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_02]: What orders from Mordor, my Lord? Thanks a little Jackson line. I want to know how a dog

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_09]: got so familiar with the makeup of Austin Ethel. I don't get you. How did he know the, well,

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, I suppose you could just spy out the fact that it's protected by two rivers and so forth,

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_09]: but how did you know where the weakest point of the water? How did you know the defenses and

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_09]: um, guys got good intel? Yep. Evidently. Evidently. Oh and the rock formations that they exploded

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_09]: to make to fall down to make the dam looked very much like National, that studies me natural,

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_09]: rock formations in Iceland. Okay. Which is where we get ideas of elves and dwarves and you know

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_09]: from that we're very much a part of Tolkien's reading and thinking and um, creation of his mythology.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_09]: So I don't know if anybody else has been to Iceland or live in Iceland and noticed that, but I just

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_06]: thought it was cool. Yeah, there's, there's not a lot of substantive stuff about here except

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_06]: poor Mordorania, right? She's going to get her reward, all right? And also, yeah, it's going to be great

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_06]: that that you know, we got a piece of feedback saying like, oh, Sarah doesn't really lie. He tells

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_06]: he tells the truth. He just twists it and I'm like, actually, I think he does lie and here's

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_06]: it, it's able to clear cut lie, right? Oh absolutely. Which is your hiking is ordered that we

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_06]: not launch a counter-dark. It's like, hiking doesn't even know there's an attack going. That's

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_06]: like, that's a clear lie. Um, and and yeah, I just think it's a beautiful twist, right, that he's

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_06]: gone. He's like, y'all, the hiking's in denial, but I'm here. I'm your savior. Putting yourself

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_06]: in the position of a savior really helps you earn the trust of the whole city. Well, until it doesn't.

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, but, but it kind of does, right? Because he wins later anyway. It gives him a time he needs.

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_03]: It gives him the time he needs. Yeah. I think he was taking a little surprise by at our tactics though.

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think he was expecting that. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you David. I agree with that. Yeah. And by the way,

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not spoiling when I say, I think it does work. I'm saying when he later in this episode orders,

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_06]: the L was the kill each other when they were arrested. I'm already, I already won. I'm already

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_03]: inside everybody's head. Everybody's head, right? Yep. Which is what Adar says later that, you know,

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_09]: they're lost to shadow. It's already lost to shadow. And that may actually spill out some reason

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_09]: for me, Adani is fake because I'm not well, he wasn't her head and yet so was Calibut in boy.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_06]: Hmm. Yeah. Yep. No, I think, Maradania, I think if she had not been there at that moment,

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_06]: if it had had been any other elf, Sarah would have just killed that elf. I think it was just,

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you know, he's angry at this person right now. Now's my chance to make him make a mistake.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Right. And get the people of Arigat really turned on him because once he kills another elf,

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_06]: oh, we are done. He's done. He's never, he's never recovering from that on the campaign for

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_06]: reelection. All's are down in Calibut. So I think we can move right on to this read of King

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Doran. Doran III orders Narvee to clear out Duran IV and Disa to begin mining again. Narvee

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_06]: goes to the mine entrance, but allies withdraw in the younger. He tells Doran that Elirant has

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_06]: come to ask for aid in Arigat. Elirant asks for aid of the Duran tells Elirant he's about to

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_03]: overthrow his father. I don't think I've got much, we did see a little shot of the Westgate, which was

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_03]: cool. Mm-hmm. But it's, it's pre, I think it's pre friend of, that's interesting because then what

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_03]: happened to the door? They haven't installed it yet. Yeah, but they're not friends anymore.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_09]: At the end of this episode? They're, well that's the question I have, but I don't think

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_09]: that they didn't send. Wow. I don't think anyone's going to be friends with the Ragnar

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_11]: at the end of this episode. I'm not going to be a great idea. Left to defense with. Right. Yeah.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I did think we did. We have talked in the past on various podcasts, Laura Hans podcast about

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_03]: like the game of not, you know, the game of comparing grief. Oh my grief is bigger than yours.

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And I, and how that's just not a good thing to do. Right. There's no, there's not a lot of validity

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_03]: in that pain is pain and you just want to be present to other people when they're in that so that

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_03]: you can be empathetic and help them. But I kind of like that with Elirant and Duran

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_03]: that it's part of their little game with each other and there's sort of one upmanship. And

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_03]: season one, they had the stone breaking contest, you know, who's tougher and that kind of stuff.

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_03]: On the fact that what I'm going to be overthrown my father. I don't know. What do you got? He's like,

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_03]: well, I don't know. I don't know. The fate of elves is on the line. I don't know. Is that out of that way?

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I guess, you know. So I thought it was cute that they weighed that they played it. They fit for their

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_03]: characters and their interaction in history together. Yes. And they're probably the two characters

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_09]: who are most being straight up with each other and with the world. I like that.

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_09]: And not doing any deception or side hustles or anything else. I don't have time to tell you. Like,

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_03]: whatever they're like, they're being straight with each other. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Duran's

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_06]: bat house business is really taking off. I thought that was Dees' property. That's true. That's true.

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_06]: But you know, you got to help. You got to help your wife with her side hustle.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_06]: That's true. You do? Yeah. Yeah. It's um, you can. I just want to say, I'm really glad Norby

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_06]: came around. I was really worried because he hadn't beforehand and he's a beloved character in the

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_06]: lore as his guy best besties with killer brim borer. And and I'm glad that he comes down and he

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_06]: gets this order. And you keep every time you watch him, you see he's a little more hesitant to

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_06]: say yes. Yes, he's doing it. Yes. Beautiful. That actor. Until finally he breaks. He's like,

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_06]: you want me to what attack your own son? Yeah. For gold for no reason but gold. That's too much.

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Yep. It's good point. Yep. Yeah. Anyway, that's about all I have for this scene.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_06]: All right. Let's take a quick break when we get back. We'll do more talking.

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[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Hands-to-end rings.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_06]: But Kela Bremorth rose the hammer fan or at him, breaking a window and the spell.

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_06]: He walks out to see his city and ruins and himself disheveled.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Kela Bremor sweeps in his ruined workshop and trips into the bottle of Miss Brill, which was really

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_06]: the blood of Sarah.

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_06]: Kela Bremor understands who Annatar really is.

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_03]: So I got kind of, there's a whole bunch of shows that are around or watching right now.

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Agatha for one, I just finished one division.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I never finished before.

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_03]: The first time I finally got up on it, or Westworld and these characters that are in

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_03]: these loops are the matrix obviously is a very major, major, major thing.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_03]: But I am really pleased with the way that they set all of that up, gave us the clues.

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And then when it's revealed, you're like, oh man, I can't believe I missed that.

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_03]: It was the candle, the mouse, everything.

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_03]: It was just really, really nicely done.

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_09]: Well if Caleb put him on this to, I'm not sure why I thought I shouldn't have.

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I think Marilyn will be pleased to hear this.

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_06]: But I've been, and I just finished rewatching Mrs. Davis because I, my boy, I want you to find

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_06]: away.

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_06]: And there's a line in there that I think really applies to how Sauron thinks being kind goes.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_06]: The main character says to Mrs. Davis, Simone says to Mrs. Davis,

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_06]: it's not your fault. You were programmed to satisfy, not to care.

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Right. And I just think of it like Sauron is satisfying Caleb and more without caring for him.

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_06]: He's giving him this illusion of peace but it's not real and it's not empathetic.

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's not what he really needs, it's what he wants.

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Because Sauron wants something.

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, and I know that deception is ever caring.

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, you may deceive yourself into thinking, well, I'm protecting this person.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Right. But it did temporarily satisfy Caleb or more.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Mrs. Davis is a different thing because it doesn't have the evil intent to dominate the world.

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_06]: I just think it's really interesting to think about this distinction between caring and satisfaction

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_06]: because that really gets into like, you know, Sauron's whole thing. He goes into a whole thing later on about

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_06]: like the differences between him and Morgoth.

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that gets right down to it. Right. Like, yeah, he does have on its face.

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_06]: It looks like a better idea for the world than Morgoth does. But in the end, his idea of peace is really just

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_06]: I think the same thing as the distinction between satisfaction and caring is that his

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_06]: peace is without empathy, his peace is without feeling, his peace is without love.

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_09]: And without any regard for free, well, of course. Right. Well, and Caleb, but in Borses,

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_09]: whatever you have done to me, it is no gift. And when Confundi says,

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_03]: you asked and I gave it, but I gave you what you wanted. Exactly. That's where this came into

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_03]: me, right? Like, that's the distinction. Oh, yes. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, in the area of the Valar would do this, right? This or again, right? Again, exactly.

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_06]: Benevolence. And you can see Sauron's rage because he would like to be considered one of

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_06]: the my arm. He would like, he's, it's the same thing as like the fallen angel trope, right? Like,

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_06]: sure, he's bitter. He's not accepted as part of the pantheon. He's not, he would rather not be

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_06]: adversarial with them. He'd rather than just leave middle or a thumb. Right. Right. Let me get on with

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_03]: my wise plan for everybody's life. Cool. I like that they used Fanner's hammer as the thing

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_03]: that breaks the spell. That is interesting, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And I don't, that brings up a

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_03]: question of whether it was an illusionary hammer or the real one. Well, as I said, I really don't

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_09]: remember that it looks like that in season one when we first see it. I don't think there were any

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_09]: gems on it. And I just don't remember that. Maybe I just wasn't looking closely. So listeners

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_06]: write in. And you know that Fanner is sitting in the halls of mandoist, hearing about this

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_06]: and he's like, let Gipshit grandson is following for that guy? Yeah. Yeah. Well, he's in talk,

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_09]: right? Potts and Kettles. He scratched my hammer. I was asking myself earlier, why doesn't

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_09]: sound on just stop the destruction? And then of course, I realized they probably answer is because

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_03]: he wants to go thinking on destroy. Yeah. Yeah. And he wants the means of the creation of

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_03]: them rings destroyed. Right. So that nobody can figure it out or make other ones or roll back up

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_09]: the clues on that. Yeah. Well, somehow I doubt that South Honest is going to leave any of his own

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_09]: blood behind there for future. He keeps that church anyway. So that's not a problem. Yeah. I mean,

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_06]: the whole premise of the shadow of mortar games is that Kella Britmore comes back as a rath. No.

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_06]: He was up with them and who's kept from death. And in the second game, he's like, we got to

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_06]: make a new ring so we can come out to Aaron and I'm like, first of all, many, many, many more issues

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_06]: with that. But putting that aside, like, yeah, that's why he's outrun doesn't want to rig

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_06]: on around anymore. Right? He does not want someone to come up with another ring or set of rings

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_09]: that could possibly combat him and his forces. But if Kella Britmore is the only source of

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_09]: information that is needed to do this, if he's no longer around, it kind of doesn't matter.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, but the other elves were helping. Right? Like you could you could make an argument that

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_06]: the other Smiths like maybe he'll be executed all the Smiths would be okay. But you can make an

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_06]: argument that the other Smiths have enough knowledge. Somehow I don't think there's going to be any

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_09]: living Smiths left at the end of this. I would agree with that. He's in. And you know, yeah, I mean,

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_03]: just just make the whole thing murky and opaque and make it the, make it hard for anyone to

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_03]: ever follow back up with exactly how or watch, except for him. And then he gets to scope off the

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_03]: mortor and make his one last final ring because he's learned so much from Kella Brimbore.

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, this is what one wonders. You know, was he observing Kella Britmore at a whole time?

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_09]: Yes. Finally, learn that's the one thing that he needed to learn from him. I think so.

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_06]: I think. Yeah. Well, this is my prediction. Oh, yes. I've not watched the final episode.

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_06]: I need to reply. I've only watched part of it. You don't even have to cook. You don't make the way in.

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_06]: I could not leave the end of that. I watch something just to kind of calm down. So here's my

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_06]: season. We'll be siren forging the one ring with Fay and our hammer. Oh, I like that.

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_09]: Points wager bet, bet recorded. I have no information on that topic. So I feel free to weigh in and say

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_06]: that's a very interesting idea. I like it. They give you a cool shot, right? Just him. Could well be.

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_06]: So let's go on. I think to Miradanias reward. So sad. Kella Brimbore goes outside to find Miradania

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_06]: and tell her he's being manipulated by Saron. He declares Anatara to be Saron and orders him

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_06]: arrested, but the elves side with Anatara and treat Kella Brimbore as insane. He tells them to check

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Saron's wound for black blood, but he raises his hand to show it red. When Miradania tries

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_06]: to help Kella Brimbore to his chambers, Anatara causes Kella Brimbore to push her off the wall

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_06]: into the Orcs who kill her. Anatara tells Kella Brimbore if he gives him the nine,

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_06]: he'll spare the city and create a new piece. Perfect in lasting. A perfect in lasting. I'm

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_06]: going to put that in there. Yeah, perfect. And lasting. I don't know what it's a good line.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_09]: This is an excellent example of why anybody comes along and tries to tell you that they have

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_09]: the recipe for creating a perfect world order. You should smile politely and look for the nearest exit.

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's in my professional life and things that I've done a bunch of

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_03]: leadership training and management training and all these kinds of things. That's one of the

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_03]: things that you, you, at least I've discovered for myself is that leadership isn't always about

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_03]: the one who has the answer or the one who does the work or whatever, but it's about

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_03]: building teams and coalition and creating space where everyone can sort of contribute. And if you

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_03]: only have one source of answers, besides the fact that it's a single point of failure,

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_03]: it also diminishes everyone around you and actually creates a weaker and less robust

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_03]: organization or the ability to achieve whatever the goals are. I'm actually thinking even in

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_09]: larger terms than that, which is rather than try and teach the creation of a perfect world order,

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_09]: however you're defining that. I would like to see leaders teaching us how to deal with the imperfections

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_09]: of our world because it will never be a perfect world. Correct. There will always be flaws

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_09]: and slips and mistakes and deliberate evil done. And far better to have the tools to

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_09]: respond to that in the best possible way than to say, oh, what I can make it perfect.

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Definitely agreed. And that's where you need to be able to hear the voices of other people

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_09]: as part of solutions. Yes, exactly David and that's back to your point of the teamwork as opposed

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_09]: to the one mile lady leader and everybody else scratching down and around them with their one idea,

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_09]: eye alone can fix it. Right. Very, very dangerous, very, very dangerous, Latia. So

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_09]: poor went out for Madonna. Yeah, she looked to lovely and pure and innocent to survive

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_03]: long in this particular millionaire. I'm sorry for Madonna, but I'm glad this is terrible. It's so

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_03]: terrible. I'm glad they killed off the character because it actually makes this show meaningful.

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_03]: It actually brings it actually elevates the thing that they're willing to bump

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_06]: characters off like that. Yeah, this was an entirely show creation and I'm totally fine with that.

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Look, the second age is filled with death of canon characters too. Yes, it is. And you have a loss

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_09]: that is not simply one of half a dozen Elvis troops. Right. Yeah, they're not just red shirts.

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_09]: You have a loss of a character who we have known, who we have, you know, had perhaps sympathy or

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_03]: empathy with. Yeah. Yeah. And it tells us about Sauron as well and about how he's willing to

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_09]: have other people pay these costs. Well, I'm the horror of having Calibre more believe that he

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_09]: to Madonna is even worse. Right. That's I'm getting a little uncomfortable with the level of

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_09]: knowledge of people that the show runners have. Who did you grow up with? And to think that

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_03]: the in her mind, the last thing is poor Calibre and Bor who is raging about the ruby in the

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_03]: house, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then the next thing she knows, she's at the bottom of a wall,

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_09]: you know, surrounded by works. Yeah. At least they kill her quickly. That's true. It was my first

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_06]: thought. Yeah. Well, all right. I think that's basically it other than very terrifying Sauron here.

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_06]: And it only gets worse. Yep. Yeah. All right. So standoff between Elf and Ork is next.

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_06]: Has Mayor Donnie had died. The elves of Lyndon arrive on horseback ready to fight before they can attack

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_06]: at our reveals, Galadriel caged at our an eleron parlay and at our asks for the rings that

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_06]: a feet Sauron in exchange for Galadriel. At our tells Elrond, he will lose an Elrond mocks at our

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_06]: careless treatments of the lives of his children. At our tells Elrond, he will bring Galadriel's

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_06]: to the battlefield. And Elrond says goodbye to her by kissing her on the way out. Elrond shares

[00:55:51] [SPEAKER_06]: with another elf. I think it was the name Borrah here. Borrah here. Yeah. Borrah here. Yeah, I was going

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_06]: to check with the X-ray once the episode actually comes out. But Elrond shares with Borrah here,

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_06]: it sounds like we, you know, again, we could be wrong because no subtitles. That Dorin,

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_06]: the fourth is coming with an a Jorvis army and he sends the soldier there to check on them.

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_09]: A lot here. Yes, the second watch I recognize the little poison pill that Elrond dropped into

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_09]: the otherwise supposedly still in happy waters of the Orks and their father. Oh, yeah. I got

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_06]: the right way. I was saying, yeah, the minute he was like, are they okay with it? And usually the Orks

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_06]: like, huh? Yeah. Yeah. It tilts the chin a little bit. I would not be at all surprised if Daddy

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_09]: Ork wins up killing a dog or maybe he would be fitting wouldn't it bringing him down sufficiently

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_03]: so that someone else will kill him. Is that Ork in the show guy because he is named? He has a name.

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_09]: I just don't know what it is. Oh, that's how he works. X-ray comes out. Okay. Because everyone knows who

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Daddy Ork is. So should we talk about the kiss? Can I quote the killers? Okay. It was only a kiss.

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_06]: It was only a kiss. You know, Mr. Brightside? Yeah. Now millennials right now.

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_06]: Now, anything else. Yeah. All the way in their head right now. I've been your head. You

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Millennials. You have your hair. You're thing and I think never mind the music because they

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_06]: got to do Mr. Brightside eventually because it's you know they're they're millennial millennials and

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_06]: I think I think I think get out. It's the millennial anthem, I think. So what was your what was your

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_03]: beef with a kiss? My beef was that a lot of being asked or like we're putting at we're putting

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_06]: was underlined. We look. We have said we're going to spoil be Lord of the Rings. The trilogy

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_06]: of the Lord of the Rings where it doesn't reference the second age and so I just want to

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_06]: say fact now if you really really really don't want it with that's forward like two minutes

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_06]: by the way, I don't want you right then. Um okay so Elron, Mary's Galadriel's daughter

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_06]: and then has a child with her who booms our win and I hate that he just kisses mother and

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_06]: I just hated it. I hated that. I thought it was uh I thought Tolkien would have been horrified.

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_09]: Not if he realized that this was the only way he could get close enough to her to slip her a lot

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_09]: of it. But was it? What if he just gave her a hug? He had to put it in your hands in such a way

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_06]: that she could pome at immediately. Um I don't buy it. Anyway um I think it shocked the

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_09]: works enough that they were looking directly at him too so that helped. So what what saved it

[00:58:52] [SPEAKER_06]: for me on second watch was I noticed he says right before he gets there he goes forgive me and you're

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_06]: like okay yeah that's good writing because the orcs will be as good as he's both a poor

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_06]: level for giving me for sacrificing you but he's saying forgive me for kissing you. Yep and I

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_06]: think that's that was good that was good. I did enjoy that part and so I it grew on me on second

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_06]: watch I'm not gonna complain about it anymore. This will not be a pyroclastic flow everyone

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_06]: calm down everyone around or hardspickers in our feet yes everyone put down your emails to me

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not gonna you can still write it you can still write it but it's okay okay I'm not gonna

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_03]: yell about this anymore and then the look that she shoots him after things she's like she's like

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_06]: dude like that was weird well but yeah she she has it I I thought it was like oh that was

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_06]: good shit you know like you you you really nailed that that hand off. Yeah yeah and that was why

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_03]: too that was absolutely lie man yeah yeah it was all there. It really was really yeah so and for me

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_03]: when it happened I was like oh there's gonna be some people who are gonna you know flip their wigs a

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_03]: little bit you know and I'm not I wasn't thinking of you John but I'm just thinking oh they it'll

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_03]: be interesting to see how the internet reacts to that particular scene but for me it was like

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_03]: it's a perfectly legit rose to gear the stakes are high you're one of your best friends

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_03]: and one of your most important generals is chained up in the enemy camp you know the end of

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_03]: the you know there's a siege engine tearing apart the walls of a raggeon etc etc etc etc

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_03]: and he's just got I got to get this key into into her palm and and I think like you said Marilyn

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I got to get him to look the other way well he rolled he rolled the natural 20 on his

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_03]: sleight of hand roll after rolling pretty high on his persuasion for persuasion roll as well so you

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_03]: know he did his job and and I thought it was straight up legit and yeah I'll be interesting to

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_09]: see how the how the fandom reacts. I don't know if I can say this or not so if I can't go ahead and

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_09]: cut it out but this was I inadvertently saw that this was the first thing on the list of things

[01:01:11] [SPEAKER_06]: that we were absolutely not to spoil. Oh I did too I did too I was so I was preparing for it.

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_06]: I actually kind of forgot about it though because I saw that like evidently you said you wouldn't have

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_06]: been particularly hot in the color of that. I saw it weeks ago because they gave us like episodes

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_06]: four through seven at the same time and there was and so I was I accidentally saw that when

[01:01:36] [SPEAKER_06]: I was like cleansing out and then I stopped reading it because I was like I'm just gonna spoil myself

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_06]: further. Right. I don't usually read any other things. They give us a list of the creators like do

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_06]: not tell anyone which I don't know why they give us a list because we're not supposed to talk about it

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_06]: anyway but they're like absolutely extra don't spoil these things. I think it's for the bigger

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_03]: season reviewers you know the vanity fairs. Oh yeah. If you're writing a talk about it but they

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_09]: can't talk about this. I also thought it was there was multilayer's going on here when

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_09]: Elvron said I would have to be really stupid if I had brought the ring with me. Oops. I think that was

[01:02:21] [SPEAKER_09]: kind of attempted a deflection and oh by the way I think Adaud was only asking for one ring not for

[01:02:27] [SPEAKER_09]: all the ring. Right yeah okay yeah yeah because that was the only one that he knew of for certain

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_09]: because collateral labed let me let's be honest about that. Yes. The week he said that in the last

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_09]: episode is very much so I'm not sure who made the bigger mistake. Galatriel or Elvron but

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_09]: whatever. Why not both although I guess their flip side of that is well where's it actually I

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_09]: know exactly where he should have left it and that's with Kirito. Yeah but it can't be just

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_03]: healthy didn't have time. Yeah I can get all the way to the great havens and back to Elvron

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_09]: and I don't think you could do that. Although given their sort of jazz hands about distances me.

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Wouldn't have to fit them for the rings due teleportation. Sorry just kidding.

[01:03:15] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm talking universe. I'm killing last week either so it's a little bit jazz idiot this

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_03]: point. So it sounded like Adaud knew Elvron's mother. He was like straight up she was super

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_09]: beautiful. No it was her his maternal. Malian is a Maya so that's his grandmother. No it's not even

[01:03:40] [SPEAKER_09]: his own. Great grandmother. I don't know how moved generations but. Malian and Fingol were the

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_09]: parents of Luvian to New York. Right. Her son was Deod. Fingol's heir. Deod's daughter was Elwing

[01:03:54] [SPEAKER_09]: who married Elvron Dill and they were the parents of Elvron. So are we a great great

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_03]: is that where we live. But then who did he didn't who did Adaud reference? He did reference Malian.

[01:04:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Great thing everything I'm okay then I totally sorry my bad don't at me it's not my

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_06]: swall in this one. A million is a Maya so she's got a little okay so she would have been around when

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_03]: it sounded like it. What Adaud was just a pop. Right but that's it sounded like Adaud had some

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_09]: first-hand exposure. Well it's interesting how they keep seeding these little bits and pieces

[01:04:30] [SPEAKER_09]: into Adaud's knowledge bank if you will and makes you wonder well you know what was he doing

[01:04:35] [SPEAKER_09]: and who was he talking to and you know how long was it before he was rejected by the elves

[01:04:39] [SPEAKER_09]: for having been totally wrecked by sall. And more to go off. What when we covered season one I was

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_06]: really hoping that this was going to be a poll from the Silmeraly and where there was this whole bit

[01:04:50] [SPEAKER_06]: that there were some elves that were captured and tortured by more god but they were not made into

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_06]: and they escaped or more god there's a lot of them go because they have no more use to them

[01:04:59] [SPEAKER_06]: and they try to go back but because some other elves were corrupted to evil they weren't

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_06]: welcomed in even if they were trustworthy. Right so when I was hoping because I thought this would

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_06]: have been the most interesting moral complexity was that Adaud was still an elf but he came back

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_06]: and he was rejected because he had been in the custody of more god. Well I'm beginning to think

[01:05:22] [SPEAKER_09]: that he is still more of an elf than he wants to be because they keep having him harking back

[01:05:32] [SPEAKER_09]: to his elvish side and his elvish knowledge you know planting the seeds before battle. Later on

[01:05:39] [SPEAKER_09]: referencing a particular famous elf from the first age and just in any number of what just

[01:05:48] [SPEAKER_09]: having a fatherly attitude towards his children I don't think that's a typical old book behavior

[01:05:55] [SPEAKER_09]: now we did see you know when nuclear family of works in this but how much of that was because

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_09]: daddy at work was following in the footsteps if you will of Adaud whose name literally means

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_03]: right. So it's interesting and you're being very reasonable in negotiations and you know

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_03]: honoring a treaty flag you know well they didn't show us a white flag but like honoring the rules of

[01:06:25] [SPEAKER_03]: okay you know we're too opposing forces you can safely enter the camp. Par. Par. Parlay. Yes.

[01:06:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Very good and so yeah he's being you know he's following the rules of things.

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_09]: Which is hardly or like or Ulrok like remember he is making that distinction. Right.

[01:06:49] [SPEAKER_09]: Which is nothing more than a question of using the black speech instead of common speech but still

[01:06:56] [SPEAKER_03]: it's an important distinction. We spend a whole hour talking about this on the loricast.

[01:07:01] [SPEAKER_09]: Indeed we did and many people have been sending us very nice things about it so thank you listeners

[01:07:07] [SPEAKER_06]: would appreciate all that lovely. One grateful you too one-on with them and then I was such a hit.

[01:07:12] [SPEAKER_09]: Well I'm sorry that you weren't there with us to make it even a better head. You know what I think

[01:07:16] [SPEAKER_06]: it needed it needed to be the two of you. The power of two. Speaking of works there were some

[01:07:24] [SPEAKER_03]: works on the on the battle line there that were certainly the actors were certainly having fun playing or

[01:07:30] [SPEAKER_03]: they were shouting. Oh yeah really going for it. Well because they knew they were going to stop

[01:07:36] [SPEAKER_09]: the charge dead in its tracks. Right. Pretty pretty good. I thought we were somebody wondering why the

[01:07:42] [SPEAKER_09]: works look so happy that they were facing ahead on Elf a charge. Now you're white. I do have to say

[01:07:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Gil Gallaud was giving big show gun energy with his helmet. Yeah. I don't know if when we were

[01:07:54] [SPEAKER_03]: watching show gun earlier this year some of the helmets that the generals had were just sort of ginormous

[01:08:01] [SPEAKER_03]: art pieces you know they talk about fascinators right for in the. Yeah but those are often very tiny

[01:08:07] [SPEAKER_09]: you see. Yes exactly. I was headed to the spectrum more guts what got spasinated as Dr. Sarah Brown

[01:08:13] [SPEAKER_03]: called it right right exactly that I did. That pod that was funny. I was very very funny.

[01:08:18] [SPEAKER_03]: I got a little confused because we see we get that shot of of Gil Gallaud there and then he's

[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_03]: just not around. He's not participating in the the parlaze he's you know and then he just should have

[01:08:30] [SPEAKER_03]: shows up because a king is needed it was so I got him. He was a little dopey there. Yeah I was

[01:08:36] [SPEAKER_09]: like I was not feeling Gil Gallaud there. I felt that there were a couple of scenes that got cut

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_09]: and I think it's appropriate. Elvron is his herald. Yeah and therefore serving as his ambassador.

[01:08:49] [SPEAKER_09]: And let's visit he's the mastermind behind all of this and I think Gil Gallaud is content to

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_09]: have him be so and he's not a shatogeneral and if you want to know what that means to your listeners

[01:09:01] [SPEAKER_09]: be sure those of you who are able to listen to our lark has. Oh I'm curious and we will be talking

[01:09:06] [SPEAKER_03]: new lore is about to drop. Yes. I love it. Hot off the press. That's right.

[01:09:12] [SPEAKER_03]: David. Yeah I did. It'd be a quick one. The Elvron does drop a line. I'm fine with Gil Gallaud not

[01:09:19] [SPEAKER_03]: being there for the negotiations but there's a great line that add our drops you know something

[01:09:27] [SPEAKER_03]: about well you know your your your your hand would be better with a scroll and he then a short

[01:09:33] [SPEAKER_03]: piece of you've never seen me wield either. I was like oh boom smack yeah and it's good I

[01:09:40] [SPEAKER_03]: we really are seeing Elvron's development not only as a a strategist and a field commander

[01:09:52] [SPEAKER_03]: as a you know hardened warrior but also a skilled negotiator and balancing and juggling all

[01:09:59] [SPEAKER_03]: these sort of different political and things oh no he's a Gary Stu I'm just kidding I don't know

[01:10:06] [SPEAKER_06]: to Gary Stu. It's a merry suit but what is a male character. Oh okay okay. Got it so well we've certainly

[01:10:13] [SPEAKER_09]: seen a lot of his ambassador and diplomatic skills yeah this is the first time we've seen him you know

[01:10:20] [SPEAKER_09]: wielding the sword kind of thing and I somehow think they had to have been some training sessions

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_09]: back there in Lendon on a regular picture yeah yeah all of these elves to be so skilled in things

[01:10:33] [SPEAKER_03]: but I will say on the battle stuff I don't know how you guys felt about any of it I'm giving some

[01:10:40] [SPEAKER_03]: of the I'm giving a lot of room for the show to do certain things like having those big siege engines

[01:10:49] [SPEAKER_03]: just outside you know to build those things to transport or build those things is a pretty big

[01:10:57] [SPEAKER_03]: undertaking and so to this big the Elvron city doesn't know that there are several lesions of

[01:11:02] [SPEAKER_03]: works building giant tribusheys outside there well okay fine cavalry like the cgi line up of the

[01:11:09] [SPEAKER_03]: cavalry well it was great it was fine and cavalry really shouldn't be running around in forest

[01:11:15] [SPEAKER_03]: environments that it you know especially heavily armored cavalry even if they're Elvron so there's just a

[01:11:20] [SPEAKER_03]: lot of things that are like this doesn't work but I'm really fine hand waving at all because ultimately

[01:11:27] [SPEAKER_03]: it's serving the story and it's putting our characters into the places and the positions that we want them

[01:11:32] [SPEAKER_09]: or their dramatic arcs their car yeah but let us also remember that we've already been told that

[01:11:37] [SPEAKER_09]: the professional soldiers were shipped down to more of the door okay it's a good point so these are

[01:11:43] [SPEAKER_09]: everybody they could cobbled together to last minute sure do whatever they could with what they had

[01:11:49] [SPEAKER_03]: that's a big army to the decoupled together who knew linden had so many people right yeah

[01:11:53] [SPEAKER_03]: no that's good that's a good point that's a lot of horse and it's a lot of heavy armor and you don't

[01:11:57] [SPEAKER_03]: do that you don't ride cavalry without training so anyway whatever it's all it's all in the

[01:12:02] [SPEAKER_06]: world of sort of some hand-babe stuff and I'm fine with it but also I want to say that there have

[01:12:08] [SPEAKER_06]: been very few orc settings for thousands of years at this moment hold oh yeah so there's not

[01:12:14] [SPEAKER_06]: it's not like these are practice remember house of the dragon bro we keep saying like oh well

[01:12:18] [SPEAKER_06]: these people haven't seen more they're they're not prepared for it they think it's gonna be glorious

[01:12:22] [SPEAKER_06]: and you know we don't see that problem with the elves here because they did live their wars because

[01:12:27] [SPEAKER_06]: they're so old but recently first aid there's been no reason to have a standing army there's been no

[01:12:33] [SPEAKER_06]: reason to have huge battlements it's literally just relics of the first age right that's

[01:12:40] [SPEAKER_06]: that's what they have for army so I think it's totally possible that they're completely unprepared

[01:12:44] [SPEAKER_06]: for a full-scale attack like this with the full orc as army yeah good point okay

[01:12:50] [SPEAKER_06]: good point because they're not warring these realms of elves are not warring in the second age

[01:12:55] [SPEAKER_06]: any wars between elves happens on the first age and they're hurting more wars there were

[01:12:59] [SPEAKER_06]: like skirmishes you may even have good relations with the dwarves yeah yeah that's my whole deal

[01:13:09] [SPEAKER_06]: that's my whole deal speaking of dwarves yeah let's go there we have a pre battle montage I'm calling

[01:13:17] [SPEAKER_06]: it during the fourth rallies the dwarves of Kazadume to go to war against saur on the stone

[01:13:23] [SPEAKER_06]: heart who stole the seven smithic secrets from their forebears and his forging rings to enslave

[01:13:30] [SPEAKER_06]: the people's a middle earth gladial finds the lockpick eleron slipped her during the kiss

[01:13:36] [SPEAKER_06]: and kellabron borr begins his attempts to destroy the nine rings the dwarves chant barook Kazad

[01:13:43] [SPEAKER_09]: yes they ready for battle I called this door in srispen crispy in spiel yeah

[01:13:51] [SPEAKER_06]: hammer the fifth yeah for sure it was really good and always excellent the

[01:13:56] [SPEAKER_09]: eliteration was stunning I had that line exact line too john so if you hadn't said it I was

[01:14:01] [SPEAKER_06]: quite you and also this um this barook Kazad I always love this because it shows how directly

[01:14:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Tolkien tried to link Hebrew to the dwarf his line the dwarves language the wolf is you know

[01:14:14] [SPEAKER_06]: kashem that's something that you say in in Jewish prayer quite a lot or ukatada and I you know this

[01:14:20] [SPEAKER_06]: this whole thing and so means like blessed in Hebrew lust in Hebrew and here we have

[01:14:26] [SPEAKER_09]: blessed Kazadume I guess well actually I think it's gimlius line from the siege it helps

[01:14:33] [SPEAKER_09]: oh it is just not the first time we've been reminded of the siege of the casadist dwarves isn't it

[01:14:38] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah so holy dwarf is that what's so no it's axes of the dwarves

[01:14:45] [SPEAKER_09]: bahu Kazad Kazad I may know he so Kazad I may know the dwarves are upon you bahu Kazad

[01:14:52] [SPEAKER_09]: axes of the dwarves I guess whether an axe is blessed depends until I have a hand in the

[01:14:59] [SPEAKER_06]: year on barook for axe I'm pretty sure well that's weird I don't like it I don't like it

[01:15:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Mr. J. R. R. It's a count for yourself poor translation Mr. Lingwist I had to go with a

[01:15:13] [SPEAKER_03]: dune comp and long live the fighters of Kazadume which you know Paul rallies his troops along

[01:15:19] [SPEAKER_03]: live the fighters which has some other historical annacitances well without French and Algerian

[01:15:25] [SPEAKER_09]: war and stuff so my only question along this line is I don't see why D.C. is saying that

[01:15:32] [SPEAKER_09]: Prince Doran can't take the army with him is that late no it's it's when he's about to leave and

[01:15:39] [SPEAKER_09]: they say no you can't do that that's later actually yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I'm sorry

[01:15:45] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah that's true it's after Dedi Duran goes crazy yeah oh okay although do you think that happened

[01:15:50] [SPEAKER_06]: do you think that's an illusion by sauron we'll talk about later yeah I think it's not about when we get there

[01:15:55] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah yeah sure but it was cool to see Kazadume we've been great great great great

[01:16:01] [SPEAKER_03]: visuals of Kazadume all all season long yeah and getting us a real sense of how big that

[01:16:06] [SPEAKER_03]: population is yeah and I like to call him response Kazad it was great yeah they got to go

[01:16:16] [SPEAKER_06]: I really do yep good work the battle for a reggiana's upon us Eleron fights his way

[01:16:23] [SPEAKER_06]: through an army of works in defensive a reggiana the orcs beg at our to retreat but he refuses

[01:16:28] [SPEAKER_06]: saying he just loves them too much to allow them to become slaves to sauron great ladar finds

[01:16:36] [SPEAKER_06]: it's a gladrial escaped and orders are found she navigates the orc camp in disguise and

[01:16:43] [SPEAKER_06]: deserves an orc as funeral but is almost found out when Arondier rescues her from her pursuers

[01:16:50] [SPEAKER_09]: I wish I'd put in an at points I was like I predicted it I I think we can award you some honor

[01:16:57] [SPEAKER_03]: okay that's all right you go have me here on the on our production chat you're like

[01:17:04] [SPEAKER_09]: I'd happen to run here you funny yeah and interesting that he has that they have ad

[01:17:15] [SPEAKER_09]: to say you know I love it with all that remains of my heart I didn't catch that part oh

[01:17:23] [SPEAKER_09]: that's just saying okay oh yeah and uh therefore I can have he slaughtered by thousands

[01:17:31] [SPEAKER_09]: rather than have all of you enslaved by sauron yeah some of you may die but that's a sacrifice I'm

[01:17:38] [SPEAKER_09]: willing to make to make yeah I mean really think about it for a minute here whether it's for your own

[01:17:45] [SPEAKER_09]: glory or for the love supposedly of your children you still have very powerful

[01:17:53] [SPEAKER_09]: quote unquote leaders making decisions for their followers it's interesting because

[01:17:59] [SPEAKER_03]: and I think we got a feedback about this and we'll talk about it when we do the feedback pod but

[01:18:04] [SPEAKER_03]: this idea of what does why is sauron a threat to the orcs?

[01:18:11] [SPEAKER_03]: sauron's a threat to all people's everybody's everybody so what makes the orcs more and I really

[01:18:18] [SPEAKER_03]: do think it's this uh there that they're under his shadow in a way that other uh other races are not

[01:18:25] [SPEAKER_09]: well and it's also the for our god they are my children right and I think that that

[01:18:33] [SPEAKER_09]: bit of possessiveness there is is partly blending him you know he's going to make sure that sauron is

[01:18:40] [SPEAKER_09]: not going to you know quote unquote win but it's also true that in their making

[01:18:46] [SPEAKER_09]: the orcs were tainted probably first by more graph yeah right you know sub-saclity by sauron so

[01:18:53] [SPEAKER_09]: that they are quite susceptible and let's face it I think we've only seen you know we've seen

[01:18:58] [SPEAKER_03]: the one nuclear family um I haven't really seen a lot of well we see some orc females in the

[01:19:10] [SPEAKER_03]: managing the the rituals and of course my my ritual detectors went off uh we saw this in flames

[01:19:17] [SPEAKER_06]: they returned to darkness yeah yeah but what was most important to us into me I think is that

[01:19:24] [SPEAKER_06]: collage real started seeing they're not animals yes they are

[01:19:27] [SPEAKER_03]: cool things with the in beings yep with rituals with with hopes and fears and dreams about their

[01:19:35] [SPEAKER_03]: themselves but their their their their souls they're uh they're offspring right yeah they're a whole

[01:19:42] [SPEAKER_03]: people they feel grief yeah there you go into to put it in law simply yeah and I think that

[01:19:53] [SPEAKER_03]: that they did that really well with her under her she's looking very nazzgule under that cloak

[01:19:59] [SPEAKER_09]: yeah interesting in some ways have yet to see a nazzgule with you know golden here that reminds

[01:20:04] [SPEAKER_03]: no but it was just that they pulled the way the cloak was uh no I know it's me I know it's you yeah

[01:20:09] [SPEAKER_03]: but yeah there we had some some female orcs there but then going through those trenches right we

[01:20:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I just was right back to that world war one experience of talking and for sure and then I think you

[01:20:20] [SPEAKER_03]: said something on the lore cast uh about uh orcs and orcs that was like when Christopher was uh at war

[01:20:28] [SPEAKER_03]: the he met orcs in the barracks and they were wearing the same uniform as him right right

[01:20:35] [SPEAKER_09]: which is again an interesting reflection on Tolkien's origins of orcs and uh how his idea shifted over time

[01:20:44] [SPEAKER_03]: right because we really saw a human side of the orcs with a burial rituals absolutely absolutely

[01:20:52] [SPEAKER_09]: yes and uh I just love Galadriel saying to Arondir there is a birth of Elven heroes this night

[01:21:02] [SPEAKER_09]: it would be a pity to lose another and the true fight with Adar who will come later

[01:21:08] [SPEAKER_06]: you can't lose the green power Ranger about early in the past and oh gosh I really thought we had

[01:21:15] [SPEAKER_06]: lost him but I hope that yeah I don't know what you're talking about yeah I don't think he's dead

[01:21:21] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think he's dead look I'm gonna have to go back first encountered

[01:21:27] [SPEAKER_06]: what's his name is male card over dova okay so I had first encountered him on sesame street because my

[01:21:34] [SPEAKER_06]: daughter was in to ses me straight for like a very brief moment and he would he played Mando on ses

[01:21:39] [SPEAKER_06]: me straight and he was very into singing the kids and teaching them Spanish it was great

[01:21:44] [SPEAKER_06]: and then when I saw him and rings a power I was like you know he's he's doing a good job he's a guy's

[01:21:48] [SPEAKER_06]: got range and uh he's not gone yet he can't be gone I'm in denial I hope not we've already lost

[01:21:55] [SPEAKER_09]: for Arondir and yeah but also I don't think his arc is done I don't either because I want him to take

[01:22:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Galadriel to the green wood yeah I think I think that would be a really nice way for his arc to go

[01:22:08] [SPEAKER_06]: and and we can walk in right and I think it would be I don't think he needs to kill

[01:22:16] [SPEAKER_06]: Arondir I think that would actually be counter to the arc I think the balance is not what he should find

[01:22:22] [SPEAKER_06]: but I also think him dying here would be a really big waste of a character arc

[01:22:28] [SPEAKER_07]: oh I couldn't agree more I couldn't agree more I don't

[01:22:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I was again like with Miradania like if you're as a showrunner if the story needs you to take

[01:22:42] [SPEAKER_03]: a character off the board take the character off the board don't put him under a dumpster so

[01:22:46] [SPEAKER_03]: they can climb out you know a couple episodes later and oh surprise you know so they kill

[01:22:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Arondir because that's his arc then I'm fine with that I just don't want to see some hand-wave

[01:23:00] [SPEAKER_03]: stuff about you know how how he comes back you know when they showed us him cut down by

[01:23:08] [SPEAKER_06]: Ador I mean I know where you're going to be I think it's perfectly reasonable that Elvish medicine

[01:23:12] [SPEAKER_06]: heals him if he if there are so many wounds so the thing is right there and I think

[01:23:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Galadriel has a personal she doesn't have any liking to him yeah but she says she has it

[01:23:23] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not she got she's gonna get it back she gets it in the third age we know she had them third age

[01:23:27] [SPEAKER_09]: she's gonna get it back well we can we can certainly determine who has it now with a couple of scenes

[01:23:34] [SPEAKER_06]: in line here look I I the guys not dead I I will wager all of my right points and I'm going

[01:23:40] [SPEAKER_06]: all out guys not dead okay I really really hope you're right I think Ador's arc is basically over

[01:23:47] [SPEAKER_06]: and he's he's not been struck down but I think I couldn't even any more story to tell with Ador I think

[01:23:53] [SPEAKER_06]: well with what Ador function as and I didn't see this vision the first season but I see it now

[01:23:59] [SPEAKER_06]: is I think Ador presented to us an alternative history of the arcs that could have been

[01:24:04] [SPEAKER_06]: interesting where they could have been a free people that learn to perhaps have

[01:24:12] [SPEAKER_06]: worse rules within their society but still be able to have productive relationships with the

[01:24:18] [SPEAKER_06]: terms of men and elves and dwarfs and I and I just think that Sauron robbed them of them of that

[01:24:25] [SPEAKER_09]: by seeing them thralls yeah yeah and I rather think that Ador's arc will be over as far as

[01:24:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Sauron is concerned yeah but I mean what what more is there to do after this I think it was a really

[01:24:38] [SPEAKER_06]: interesting addition I think he he proved his point right is that these orcs have personalities

[01:24:44] [SPEAKER_06]: and they they do have the capacity for you know a regular life and and now I I think and again

[01:24:55] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not spoiled for anything I'm not spoiled for the finale or anything if this happens or

[01:24:58] [SPEAKER_06]: no but I would be perfectly fine about Ador dies now I think his arc is played out now okay I

[01:25:05] [SPEAKER_03]: went back and and looked at that clip and he's still crawling on the ground oh okay he's still moving

[01:25:13] [SPEAKER_03]: he you know Ador throws him to the ground and he sort of lands and he continues to crawl forward

[01:25:17] [SPEAKER_03]: so he he does he's not finished there so there we go there we go and Ador just more interested in

[01:25:25] [SPEAKER_06]: finding Elkron to race exactly and I think he's not a thread anymore yeah yeah and I think you're

[01:25:31] [SPEAKER_09]: right kind of it myers around you're a little bit yeah John I I can see that I was just thinking

[01:25:37] [SPEAKER_09]: that too maybe he really doesn't want to to take him down because you know elf you only other thing

[01:25:42] [SPEAKER_03]: was going to actually say maybe about this whole scene it was cool to see the same sword technology

[01:25:48] [SPEAKER_03]: that they have in the the the lying sword that the wet uh folks invented just that big curvy thing

[01:25:55] [SPEAKER_03]: that's what uh El Runs fighting with then what was it deal with the catapult arc okay so there's

[01:26:00] [SPEAKER_03]: the arrow and then the catapult or that those those two things yeah the catapult or did read me a

[01:26:05] [SPEAKER_09]: little bit the wrong way I was just kind of down silly I thought it was just a sort of

[01:26:13] [SPEAKER_03]: he did and that's interesting because you know fighting with anger right I mean oh we know that

[01:26:19] [SPEAKER_09]: don't worry I mean let's save that for the final scene but the the the whole

[01:26:24] [SPEAKER_06]: El Run on the war path really reminded me and I think I've quoted this line before but it's

[01:26:29] [SPEAKER_06]: something that always sticks in my head from the soul merlane about Fay and O'er

[01:26:33] [SPEAKER_06]: for he was fake and soon by the flame of his own right right right right and that oh it like you could

[01:26:40] [SPEAKER_06]: just feel like the fire behind the eyes and you feel like every step is weighing a thousand pounds

[01:26:46] [SPEAKER_06]: and I feel like that was El Run here just yeah sweeping through the army of works

[01:26:51] [SPEAKER_09]: it would be beautiful and no relation to Fay and O'er in this case but still no but

[01:26:57] [SPEAKER_06]: of the same kid right of all of the world um not really he's got some gold o' in him

[01:27:05] [SPEAKER_09]: no he's got um well yes okay from from the gaundal in line yeah um or no sorry I think he's

[01:27:17] [SPEAKER_06]: entirely sondar in line we're gonna look this up right now before you and I it's so added

[01:27:29] [SPEAKER_09]: because El Run until all right El Run until his mother is an old wolf

[01:27:35] [SPEAKER_06]: he drill but I think she's the only that's still some nuldo though I feel like

[01:27:41] [SPEAKER_06]: he's looking very generous with his like you got any later the trees you got any myr

[01:27:46] [SPEAKER_06]: and you you got yeah it's a mixture of stuff well he does have my own it he does right so he's he's

[01:27:52] [SPEAKER_06]: a send the end yeah I think I think even if he wasn't nuldo he would still have

[01:27:57] [SPEAKER_06]: led to the trees and him because he's got the blood of thing all

[01:28:02] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's a caliquan d, not a morquan d.

[01:28:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Right. Future John here. We've determined that L. R. is part no door but not very much.

[01:28:10] [SPEAKER_06]: So I think we were all a little right.

[01:28:13] [SPEAKER_06]: We weren't. Of course. Okay. So let's move on.

[01:28:19] [SPEAKER_06]: We've got an impossible choice. I'm calling it.

[01:28:25] [SPEAKER_06]: As the Jorvish army becomes ready.

[01:28:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Narvish runs in bloody to tell Doran that his father turned his axon the other dwarves.

[01:28:33] [SPEAKER_06]: He delivers a message from D. So that he must recall the army and makes this an existence.

[01:28:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Makes it clear that this is an existential threat to Casadoom.

[01:28:42] [SPEAKER_09]: And I don't get that at all.

[01:28:44] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know. Really. I did it all.

[01:28:46] [SPEAKER_09]: Why does the entire army have to be recalled because the king is attacking some.

[01:28:52] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm guessing there are a loyalist dwarves too.

[01:28:56] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm guessing there are. Well, then they should say that they should say that because that has not been cleared to me at all.

[01:29:02] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, we saw an odd view in all of his people go right over to Prince,

[01:29:08] [SPEAKER_09]: so where are these, you know, king supporting dwarves that I haven't heard anything from?

[01:29:16] [SPEAKER_06]: I wonder if this is a deception from Sarah.

[01:29:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. I'm kind of leaning towards this is just Sarah on sending over a shadow.

[01:29:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Narvish to talk to you to Doran.

[01:29:28] [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, I hope that's not true because that's really overstepping in my eyes.

[01:29:34] [SPEAKER_03]: There is a the at the end of the scene.

[01:29:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Annatar is superimposed. They cross fate over Narvish in a way that makes me think that John is got his finger on something here.

[01:29:46] [SPEAKER_03]: That this is a Salron manipulation because he has been to causa doom, right?

[01:29:55] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, he has. But I thought that was just to see if he could get them to me three on if he couldn't to make sure that the bow rug was.

[01:30:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Was Narvish there at that scene? Was it Narvish who came to get Doran to bring him?

[01:30:08] [SPEAKER_03]: I can't remember how that all went down.

[01:30:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just trying to put Narvish and Annatar on the same room.

[01:30:18] [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know if I can't remember David. Yeah.

[01:30:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Listeners, right? But they totally superimposed him over Narvish.

[01:30:23] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, I missed that.

[01:30:25] [SPEAKER_09]: I missed that.

[01:30:27] [SPEAKER_03]: So, and it's got I do agree with you. It's like from the big wide shot that we had of the forces lined up there.

[01:30:35] [SPEAKER_03]: There were like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11. Probably like 11 or 12 companies.

[01:30:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I can't remember my military size strengths but you know, big groups of guys.

[01:30:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Co-ports.

[01:30:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. And so it was a lot of people. You need all of them for this situation.

[01:30:57] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

[01:30:59] [SPEAKER_06]: But I think it's pointing deception, but it could just be...

[01:31:02] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, no. I'm more comfortable with that than with you know, Disa actually said this.

[01:31:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because why was it Disa was like, nah man, you gotta help our friends kind of like I would say.

[01:31:14] [SPEAKER_03]: It would just be weird.

[01:31:16] [SPEAKER_03]: A classic Pokemon Nabro.

[01:31:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Nabra.

[01:31:20] [SPEAKER_09]: Take out this dude that has caused our kingdom all this, you know,

[01:31:23] [SPEAKER_09]: Salad on the stone heart. Of course we want to be.

[01:31:26] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.

[01:31:26] [SPEAKER_09]: Go on after this man.

[01:31:28] [SPEAKER_09]: Person.

[01:31:29] [SPEAKER_09]: Thingy.

[01:31:30] [SPEAKER_09]: West.

[01:31:31] [SPEAKER_09]: Right.

[01:31:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:31:34] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I am of the opinion that Doren will very quickly handle the dad situation and then he will be a little late to L.R. on Spattle.

[01:31:46] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think he's gonna not show up.

[01:31:48] [SPEAKER_09]: Where is Frodo's quote? Keep your secrets then.

[01:31:52] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, where's your little...

[01:31:54] [SPEAKER_09]: Alright then keep your secrets.

[01:31:56] [SPEAKER_06]: There you go. There you go. He hasn't shown up today. We've been very good with spoilers.

[01:31:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:32:00] [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, we have.

[01:32:03] [SPEAKER_09]: But this one's a wonderful, wonderful. I can't wait to you guys see it.

[01:32:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Alright.

[01:32:10] [SPEAKER_09]: Anyway, Siren on's gas sliding.

[01:32:13] [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.

[01:32:13] [SPEAKER_09]: Absolutely.

[01:32:14] [SPEAKER_09]: Lee.

[01:32:15] [SPEAKER_09]: And I say the pun intentionally.

[01:32:17] [SPEAKER_06]: Yep.

[01:32:18] [SPEAKER_06]: But before that, let's take a quick break.

[01:32:41] [SPEAKER_06]: And we're back.

[01:32:43] [SPEAKER_06]: The next one is all about Aditar.

[01:32:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Killer Brembrour pretends to work on the rings. Well, Siren tries to bond by complaining about his treatment under Morgoth.

[01:32:53] [SPEAKER_06]: He highlights the difference between the Siren method and the Morgan.

[01:32:57] [SPEAKER_06]: By the way, where Siren seeks to heal what Morgoth destroyed.

[01:33:02] [SPEAKER_06]: When Siren calls Killer Brembrour the author of his own torment, Killer Brembrour says the Great Disciver can even deceive himself.

[01:33:11] [SPEAKER_03]: This was a pretty hard-garden gas-lighting man.

[01:33:17] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.

[01:33:17] [SPEAKER_09]: What you made me do?

[01:33:18] [SPEAKER_09]: Even a teaser.

[01:33:19] [SPEAKER_09]: It's a classic line of the abusing and the number of people who have suffered under this from abusive partners is just pretty horrific.

[01:33:27] [SPEAKER_06]: You think what you made me do, energy?

[01:33:30] [SPEAKER_03]: You forced me to torment you.

[01:33:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I am a victim of your obstinance.

[01:33:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[01:33:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And you are the true author of your torment.

[01:33:39] [SPEAKER_09]: Wow.

[01:33:39] [SPEAKER_09]: But at least at this point, Killer Brembrour and our logger believes it because he replies as John just dreaded.

[01:33:46] [SPEAKER_09]: Truly you are the Great Disciver. You can't even deceive yourself.

[01:33:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[01:33:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. He hits back with that line.

[01:33:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:33:53] [SPEAKER_03]: He can see the sort of the scales of falling from his eyes as it were.

[01:34:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Somebody should do a cut of like I can see clearly now the rain has gone.

[01:34:04] [SPEAKER_06]: Coming out.

[01:34:05] [SPEAKER_06]: I'll see you in the city.

[01:34:07] [SPEAKER_09]: No.

[01:34:10] [SPEAKER_09]: It's really, it's too awful.

[01:34:12] [SPEAKER_03]: But then they really do illuminate how twisted Sal Ron is because he says,

[01:34:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Do you know what it is to be tortured at the hands of a God?

[01:34:23] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.

[01:34:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And that this whole pain and reward a game like the whole, you know, the physical and psychological torture and torment that he suffered under more God.

[01:34:34] [SPEAKER_09]: But let us say that Killer Brembrour can pretty much answer will.

[01:34:39] [SPEAKER_09]: Right. But you also see a minor God but still a God.

[01:34:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Right. That's to hard of terror and inferiority complex.

[01:34:45] [SPEAKER_06]: So right. Like he is a minor God and he can't change that.

[01:34:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. Right.

[01:34:52] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, just so do you know what it's like to be tortured by a God?

[01:34:54] [SPEAKER_06]: It's like, dude, you are a God.

[01:34:56] [SPEAKER_06]: Yep.

[01:34:56] [SPEAKER_06]: Right now.

[01:34:58] [SPEAKER_09]: Been there done that would be really happy to give way the T-shirt and the jewelry collect.

[01:35:03] [SPEAKER_03]: But not to you.

[01:35:05] [SPEAKER_03]: So what's the deal? The rings, sorry, John, were you gonna say something else?

[01:35:08] [SPEAKER_06]: I just wanted to say I really love that they highlight the difference between Mark out and Sarah on because this is a really interesting thing in Tolkien that I don't think gets talked about enough is the variety of his villains.

[01:35:19] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, Tolkien always gets talked about it and it's like, Oh, it's just good versus evil like, no.

[01:35:24] [SPEAKER_06]: It's not just good versus evil.

[01:35:26] [SPEAKER_06]: It's different worldviews of evil competing against different worldviews of good, right?

[01:35:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Kind of unite on a miracle.

[01:35:35] [SPEAKER_06]: They don't unite because they all agree on everything.

[01:35:37] [SPEAKER_06]: They unite because they chose to believe that that the other threat was bigger.

[01:35:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway, I just like it a lot.

[01:35:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's all I wanted to say.

[01:35:52] [SPEAKER_06]: David, what were you gonna say?

[01:35:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I was just wondering why the rings were not hot to the touch after he tried to...

[01:35:58] [SPEAKER_09]: Don't you remember?

[01:35:59] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, they were a little bit.

[01:36:01] [SPEAKER_03]: He did try to and he touched something they cool and it was the same with the one ring.

[01:36:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[01:36:08] [SPEAKER_06]: It's like, it's Gandalf's like, you know, you could touch it.

[01:36:10] [SPEAKER_06]: It's cool.

[01:36:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:36:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Is that the meethyl, I guess?

[01:36:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, there is no meaning to use the post-blades.

[01:36:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that's true.

[01:36:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, it's Sauron's blood.

[01:36:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, oh, oh, maybe that's why, right?

[01:36:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Was it a fire, Maya?

[01:36:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[01:36:25] [SPEAKER_03]: He was.

[01:36:26] [SPEAKER_09]: And of course, I guess this is, this is showrunner Laura Notkander.

[01:36:31] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.

[01:36:33] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, yes, Sauron put part of his essence in the one ring, but I don't necessarily know that that meant biological essence.

[01:36:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and also in the one ring, I got the sense that the reason, one of the reasons that it wasn't hot,

[01:36:48] [SPEAKER_06]: it wasn't affected by fire at all was because it was forged in some extent so hot.

[01:36:52] [SPEAKER_09]: Exactly.

[01:36:52] [SPEAKER_06]: Nothing could come close to what it was forged in.

[01:36:55] [SPEAKER_09]: And that was the takeaway that I had with this experience was such as, yeah, there...

[01:37:01] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.

[01:37:02] [SPEAKER_09]: The method of their forging,

[01:37:03] [SPEAKER_09]: Break out the jazz hands.

[01:37:05] [SPEAKER_09]: So Fano really prepared his furnace to this little fire that he was dropping into.

[01:37:10] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, just even in that scale, it's kind of silly,

[01:37:13] [SPEAKER_09]: but he's desperate, he's in terrible pay and it is not thinking all that clearly.

[01:37:18] [SPEAKER_03]: So Caleb, remember, really does create something then that then Sauron is able to use to afford the one ring.

[01:37:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[01:37:27] [SPEAKER_03]: So connectivity.

[01:37:28] [SPEAKER_03]: All right.

[01:37:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I like it.

[01:37:30] [SPEAKER_03]: It works.

[01:37:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it works.

[01:37:33] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.

[01:37:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:37:36] [SPEAKER_06]: We're going to skip the thumb.

[01:37:39] [SPEAKER_06]: That's next.

[01:37:40] [SPEAKER_03]: That's not yet.

[01:37:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, did I get ahead?

[01:37:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[01:37:42] [SPEAKER_03]: My notes are the last.

[01:37:43] [SPEAKER_03]: That's the next one.

[01:37:43] [SPEAKER_06]: But I will move on to it now.

[01:37:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.

[01:37:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Caleb and Boris farewell is next.

[01:37:48] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm not saying he died here.

[01:37:51] [SPEAKER_06]: He did it clearly did not die here.

[01:37:52] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm just being farewell to Galadriel.

[01:37:54] [SPEAKER_09]: He might wish that he had.

[01:37:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[01:37:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[01:37:57] [SPEAKER_06]: Caleb, remember, tries to destroy the rings by fire to no avail.

[01:38:00] [SPEAKER_06]: He then tries to escape his bonds but cannot break them.

[01:38:04] [SPEAKER_06]: He decides to cut off his thumb to get free.

[01:38:07] [SPEAKER_06]: He goes outside and is knocked out by a blast.

[01:38:11] [SPEAKER_06]: The elves tried to return Caleb and board to his chambers under the order of Sauron slash anotar.

[01:38:19] [SPEAKER_06]: The Lord of a Region.

[01:38:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, but Galadriel arrives and saves him from his fate.

[01:38:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Setting the record straight.

[01:38:28] [SPEAKER_06]: Caleb and Boris, it mits he was deceived and insists Galadriel take the rings out of the city.

[01:38:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, Caleb and Boris stalls.

[01:38:35] [SPEAKER_03]: The idea that the show runners were willing to show somebody.

[01:38:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Cutting off their thumb.

[01:38:45] [SPEAKER_03]: That's pretty wild.

[01:38:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[01:38:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And this is like, okay, we had a pie with classic flow or something.

[01:38:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to be blind.

[01:38:55] [SPEAKER_03]: This is radically different and for them to do it.

[01:38:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Really shocked me and actually,

[01:39:02] [SPEAKER_03]: I kind of got a little bit more respect for them for them willing to do this.

[01:39:07] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I think it's, you know, preparation for the final episode.

[01:39:11] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.

[01:39:12] [SPEAKER_09]: It's going to get worse.

[01:39:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[01:39:13] [SPEAKER_03]: All right. Well, good.

[01:39:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Good television, right?

[01:39:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Because they're prepping us.

[01:39:18] [SPEAKER_03]: That's a good television show.

[01:39:19] [SPEAKER_06]: But I also think it's a really good inversion of true creation or cryo sacrifice.

[01:39:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, nice.

[01:39:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[01:39:28] [SPEAKER_06]: The direction of the creation now requires sacrifice.

[01:39:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:39:33] [SPEAKER_06]: He's got to actually give up part of his ability to create.

[01:39:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Right? Like he has learned to forge rings using all of his fingers.

[01:39:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Like I'm not saying someone with nine fingers couldn't create rings,

[01:39:45] [SPEAKER_06]: but they'd have to relearn a lot of their fine motor skills.

[01:39:47] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, and it's not just finger. It's the opposable thumb.

[01:39:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yeah, true.

[01:39:52] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:39:52] [SPEAKER_06]: Which is a big one.

[01:39:54] [SPEAKER_09]: More debilitating, I think.

[01:39:56] [SPEAKER_06]: And so I think he really is.

[01:39:59] [SPEAKER_06]: He understands he's like, I will never forge anything again.

[01:40:02] [SPEAKER_09]: Mm-hmm.

[01:40:03] [SPEAKER_06]: In my life ten bits.

[01:40:06] [SPEAKER_09]: And maybe I don't want to forge anything more about that.

[01:40:10] [SPEAKER_09]: Given what's happened.

[01:40:12] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, that the.

[01:40:15] [SPEAKER_09]: That meeting between Calibut and Borg, a Galatriel, I found particularly moving when he says,

[01:40:20] [SPEAKER_09]: I blighted myself to what he was doing.

[01:40:22] [SPEAKER_09]: And Galatriel says, so did I.

[01:40:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[01:40:26] [SPEAKER_09]: And I was reminded of how in one version of the lore,

[01:40:30] [SPEAKER_09]: Calibut and Borg actually had romantic feelings for Galatriel,

[01:40:34] [SPEAKER_09]: but Galatriel was already married to Calibut and the creation of rings was partly

[01:40:41] [SPEAKER_09]: influenced by that.

[01:40:44] [SPEAKER_09]: Because she said to him, you know, I long for flowers that do not die.

[01:40:51] [SPEAKER_09]: And so he first he made the gem that.

[01:40:56] [SPEAKER_09]: Out of normal eventually where the green stone.

[01:40:59] [SPEAKER_09]: But then he gets this idea of rings that will preserve.

[01:41:05] [SPEAKER_09]: And this was all supporting to this version of Galatriel's many version to story.

[01:41:12] [SPEAKER_09]: This was all part of the impetus for it.

[01:41:17] [SPEAKER_06]: I like it a lot.

[01:41:19] [SPEAKER_06]: And like it a lot.

[01:41:20] [SPEAKER_06]: And you're right, Marilyn, there is a version where Calibut and Borg is in love with Caladriel.

[01:41:26] [SPEAKER_06]: In the books.

[01:41:26] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm glad if they were going to make this big age difference,

[01:41:29] [SPEAKER_06]: which doesn't really make sense.

[01:41:31] [SPEAKER_06]: But again, trivia when people are born and want on.

[01:41:35] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's good that they didn't go down that direction.

[01:41:38] [SPEAKER_06]: But she did do a really good job showing that these are still people who have a love for each other.

[01:41:44] [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, yes.

[01:41:45] [SPEAKER_09]: And I think part of why they decided to have the older actor aside from the fabulous fabulous jobs that

[01:41:53] [SPEAKER_09]: Charles Edward has is because they wanted to show him aging.

[01:41:57] [SPEAKER_09]: Because that one scene where he looks at his face in the mirror and is appalled by what he sees.

[01:42:03] [SPEAKER_09]: Because he's so haggard, well, elves don't get haggard, right?

[01:42:07] [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, that's just not part of their DNA.

[01:42:10] [SPEAKER_09]: But they do get their DNA.

[01:42:11] [SPEAKER_06]: There it's like your dog.

[01:42:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, they do.

[01:42:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Some of them.

[01:42:17] [SPEAKER_03]: He was interesting.

[01:42:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Some of the online discourse there of the more,

[01:42:24] [SPEAKER_03]: what I want to say, people who wanted to track just to track or just trying to poke holes and everything.

[01:42:30] [SPEAKER_03]: And again, I just go to the ship you test.

[01:42:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Did we get this, tell the story.

[01:42:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Kelle Brimbor is a master in our culture in this day and age to see a young kid being a master craftsman.

[01:42:42] [SPEAKER_03]: It would be weird.

[01:42:44] [SPEAKER_03]: And so it's fine that he's a little bit older.

[01:42:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And it plays into what we want to see on screen.

[01:42:50] [SPEAKER_03]: It's fine.

[01:42:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[01:42:52] [SPEAKER_03]: But people are going to use whatever they can use to, you know.

[01:42:56] [SPEAKER_09]: Whatever gets up there knows.

[01:42:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, exactly.

[01:43:00] [SPEAKER_09]: And I just can't picture, well, I should say this because I don't know.

[01:43:05] [SPEAKER_09]: But how many young actors could you find who could possibly carry that?

[01:43:09] [SPEAKER_09]: The gravitas that we're seeing in this performance.

[01:43:13] [SPEAKER_03]: So she says to him, does she say it or does he, I can't remember?

[01:43:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Who says Namariay?

[01:43:21] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm not sure.

[01:43:22] [SPEAKER_06]: That's a good question.

[01:43:22] [SPEAKER_09]: Either of them said Namariay.

[01:43:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Somebody said some, yeah, no they did.

[01:43:26] [SPEAKER_06]: They did.

[01:43:27] [SPEAKER_09]: I know it was, it was Kelle Brimbor.

[01:43:30] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.

[01:43:30] [SPEAKER_09]: It was Kelle Brimbor.

[01:43:31] [SPEAKER_09]: So he's trying to convince him to come away with her and he says, no, I'm going to stay here.

[01:43:38] [SPEAKER_09]: Do what I can to stall.

[01:43:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And then he gives the whole message about the light and that the light is the,

[01:43:44] [SPEAKER_09]: Is not strength that ever comes to darkness at his light.

[01:43:47] [SPEAKER_09]: That might have gone on a little too long, man.

[01:43:51] [SPEAKER_03]: It was such a stretch.

[01:43:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Here it is.

[01:43:54] [SPEAKER_03]: So when I did a quick internet search for Namariay, I wanted to double check.

[01:44:00] [SPEAKER_03]: I was under the impression that it means go towards the light.

[01:44:03] [SPEAKER_03]: That's what the shell runners have told us.

[01:44:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[01:44:05] [SPEAKER_03]: But in lore if we do a little lore check, there's a poem.

[01:44:12] [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, Galatriel's poem Namariay.

[01:44:14] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.

[01:44:16] [SPEAKER_09]: Is when she is saying farewell to the fellowship,

[01:44:20] [SPEAKER_09]: That's they drift down the river.

[01:44:21] Uh-huh.

[01:44:22] [SPEAKER_09]: And she's regretting the loss of the years in Valley Nord and

[01:44:26] [SPEAKER_09]: Wonders who can possibly allow her to return there.

[01:44:30] [SPEAKER_09]: And she finally ends with Namariay.

[01:44:33] [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe you will find, well, in North, maybe even you will find it.

[01:44:36] [SPEAKER_09]: Namariay.

[01:44:37] Mm-hmm.

[01:44:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.

[01:44:40] [SPEAKER_06]: I like that.

[01:44:41] [SPEAKER_06]: I think that makes sense with Go towards the light too.

[01:44:44] [SPEAKER_09]: Sure.

[01:44:44] [SPEAKER_09]: Sure.

[01:44:45] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm not in any particular objection.

[01:44:48] [SPEAKER_06]: I want to say two, I just want to remind listeners that there was a whole big thing in season one where

[01:44:55] [SPEAKER_06]: The, you know, L, L, L, R, I was like, oh, we, we, L don't say goodbye.

[01:45:01] [SPEAKER_09]: Right.

[01:45:02] [SPEAKER_06]: And then it door and tearfully interrupts him with Namariay.

[01:45:06] [SPEAKER_09]: Yep.

[01:45:06] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.

[01:45:07] [SPEAKER_09]: Or go towards goodness.

[01:45:09] [SPEAKER_09]: I think that's what they're, what they're doing is the other connection here is

[01:45:14] [SPEAKER_09]: The beautiful beautiful song that Gilgile sings is full of phrases from the other song

[01:45:23] [SPEAKER_09]: That Galabriel sings in New and North.

[01:45:26] [SPEAKER_09]: I sang of leaves and leaves there were leaves of gold there fell and so forth.

[01:45:30] [SPEAKER_09]: And there's, um, there again that morning for the fact that the spring and summer are of

[01:45:39] [SPEAKER_09]: Lorian or gone and the winter is coming and so on.

[01:45:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Galagriel is lament and Lorian.

[01:45:46] Mm-hmm.

[01:45:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.

[01:45:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Should I read it?

[01:45:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I've got it up on the screen here.

[01:45:51] [SPEAKER_06]: I think you should.

[01:45:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Go for it.

[01:45:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, like, I haven't practiced this yet.

[01:45:56] [SPEAKER_03]: This is a, we're gonna try to present you.

[01:45:58] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't have to if you don't want to.

[01:46:00] [SPEAKER_05]: You've offered it.

[01:46:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Like gold fall, uh, like gold fall the leaves in the wind long years, numberless as the wings of trees.

[01:46:12] [SPEAKER_03]: The years have passed like swift trots of the sweet need and lofty halls beyond the west beneath the blue

[01:46:20] [SPEAKER_03]: vault of Varda, wherein the stars tremble in the song of her voice holy and queenly.

[01:46:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And missed covers the jewels of Cala, Curia?

[01:46:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Perfect.

[01:46:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Calakaria forever.

[01:46:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Now lost lost for those from the east is valymar.

[01:46:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Farewell.

[01:46:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe thou shall find valymar.

[01:46:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe even though she'll find it farewell, even though even though she'll find it farewell.

[01:46:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Sorry, I'm reading it from a distance because I don't know my glasses blah blah.

[01:46:59] [SPEAKER_09]: Sure.

[01:47:00] [SPEAKER_09]: So valymar is the name of the city in valymor where the valar lived.

[01:47:07] [SPEAKER_11]: Got it.

[01:47:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.

[01:47:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Cool.

[01:47:11] [SPEAKER_06]: And just like we are in Austin, Edel.

[01:47:14] [SPEAKER_06]: We are not in a reggae on but the shows called it a reggae on so I'm not going to confuse everybody.

[01:47:19] [SPEAKER_06]: With specifics.

[01:47:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's see.

[01:47:23] [SPEAKER_03]: So she's got the nine now.

[01:47:25] [SPEAKER_06]: She's got the nine.

[01:47:27] [SPEAKER_06]: We'll see what happens.

[01:47:29] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm very safe based on the existence of the Lord of the Rings that she's not going to keep the nine.

[01:47:36] [SPEAKER_06]: But that's certainly not.

[01:47:37] [SPEAKER_09]: I'm not going to give you anything on that bench.

[01:47:39] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.

[01:47:44] [SPEAKER_06]: The next scene I'm calling, send in the troll.

[01:47:51] [SPEAKER_06]: This scene I'm combining with the next battle scene.

[01:47:54] [SPEAKER_06]: The elves begin to succeed in their push against the Orcs but add our defyce.

[01:47:58] [SPEAKER_06]: His subordinates and clears a path for Damrod the troll.

[01:48:03] [SPEAKER_06]: The elves overpower the troll with our on deer landing the killing blow.

[01:48:07] [SPEAKER_06]: And Gil Gallaud, kind of rides around like a proud dad as more Orcs arrive.

[01:48:15] [SPEAKER_09]: Now see to me, Gil Gallaud being there when his troops are telling him the king

[01:48:19] [SPEAKER_09]: Kikings should not be here and he says we're else sure to king be but with his people in their time of need.

[01:48:25] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know, maybe out of like direct fire line at the highest point in the army.

[01:48:29] [SPEAKER_06]: I just that I don't have to think that it's great Lord attack.

[01:48:33] [SPEAKER_06]: It's great War Tactics actually.

[01:48:35] [SPEAKER_09]: And I think that it's definitely a circle of light moment where Elf should a king be when his people are in danger.

[01:48:43] [SPEAKER_09]: He knows he's going to be the prime target and yet there he is.

[01:48:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, on a battlefield, I've learned this by listening to Anthony on the House of Dragons of Rikers.

[01:48:55] [SPEAKER_03]: He has a lot of medievalists on and they talk about some of these things.

[01:48:59] [SPEAKER_03]: If you showed up on a medieval battlefield in a horse with armor, you would have the eye of every single enemy combat and around they would come for you.

[01:49:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Not to kill you.

[01:49:13] [SPEAKER_08]: No no no no no no.

[01:49:15] [SPEAKER_03]: To take you hostage because you are worth a lot a lot of money.

[01:49:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes you are.

[01:49:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And then doesn't matter, you just show up on a horse on a battlefield, you're going to draw fire.

[01:49:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you had a big tail, it like Gildas, you're going to really attract attention.

[01:49:32] [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, but if it's like kind of a last and I kind of had to reframe my own thinking of this when they formed a rank and that was exactly.

[01:49:41] [SPEAKER_03]: That was the that was the last of the army that we saw Elrond right up with that was it.

[01:49:47] [SPEAKER_09]: That was it and again, we're going to talk about this.

[01:49:51] [SPEAKER_09]: I hope in in the Larkest, but you see contrast this behavior of Gildas with the behavior of King Amy the fourth who had three or four of his soldiers dress up in the world surcoat and have a fake crown on their heads writing around the battle or shows Barry.

[01:50:09] [SPEAKER_09]: So that they could not identify the real him before.

[01:50:13] [SPEAKER_09]: And you know, contemplate that behavior for a while smart.

[01:50:17] [SPEAKER_06]: And the shamelessness of Padme Amadala.

[01:50:22] [SPEAKER_06]: How dare she.

[01:50:24] There we go.

[01:50:25] [SPEAKER_06]: How dare she, no wonder Annie didn't like sand.

[01:50:28] [SPEAKER_09]: And I also I also was reminded very much in this moment when he said where else should a King be when this people were in danger.

[01:50:36] [SPEAKER_09]: I was reminded of Erdogan saying, I have no other help to send therefore I will go myself.

[01:50:44] [SPEAKER_06]: That's good stuff.

[01:50:45] [SPEAKER_09]: And we already know that he had no more help to send because he actually said to Elrond in a previous scene in a previous episode.

[01:50:53] [SPEAKER_09]: We don't have anybody to send to Oragon.

[01:50:56] [SPEAKER_09]: Obviously, that was an exaggeration.

[01:50:59] [SPEAKER_09]: I had to beat up a few soldiers in the bushes that way.

[01:51:03] [SPEAKER_09]: Right.

[01:51:03] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay. Well let's go.

[01:51:05] [SPEAKER_09]: But as we said before, the bulk of the professional troops presumably are somewhere between Lindon and what?

[01:51:14] [SPEAKER_09]: Right.

[01:51:16] [SPEAKER_09]: Who else does he have to send? No, and put himself.

[01:51:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Can we pour one out for Damrad?

[01:51:22] [SPEAKER_03]: No.

[01:51:23] [SPEAKER_04]: No.

[01:51:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Not really.

[01:51:26] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know. There's not enough Grag in the world.

[01:51:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Not enough.

[01:51:31] [SPEAKER_09]: And it took four hours to take him down.

[01:51:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought this was all great.

[01:51:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, cool. You know, it's like we took a medieval battle, right? You know horses and swords and bows and arrows.

[01:51:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And I ended up going down a rabbit hole of like what happens when you what would happen if you really were shot by like an English long bow style bow and things like that.

[01:51:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Not a whole lot afterwards.

[01:51:59] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot of interesting stuff anyway.

[01:52:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Because they're dropping them like they're shooting them with a rifle or something, you know, and anyway whatever.

[01:52:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I just thought that when we got Damrad, it just took everything up to this next level.

[01:52:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought the CG was great.

[01:52:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought he looked great with his hair.

[01:52:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Like we've never seen a troll with hair like that. He looked like some guys I knew in high school.

[01:52:26] [SPEAKER_09]: And say no name.

[01:52:27] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I know name.

[01:52:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And then when he gets punched in the stomach by the sea ginger thing, all of that like it was just it worked across the board and it just made me very happy to have some fun fantasy you know, fight scene.

[01:52:45] [SPEAKER_06]: So I was like, yeah, I'm glad to spoke to you David very well.

[01:52:49] [SPEAKER_06]: But but I don't think I enjoyed it quite as much as you did. So it's nice. It's nice to get that second hand.

[01:52:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, excitement. When he came out I was like, oh, is this going to you know, I like how is this going to go down and I was like, oh no, it's worked and they just did it all in one long scene and they just took care of it and didn't sort of spice it up.

[01:53:12] [SPEAKER_03]: It so it compelled like it had a compelling mini arc to it and then it served the characters to you know with a rendezier.

[01:53:21] [SPEAKER_03]: At least he didn't ride a shield down the steps, but you know, go we have to you know and then you know, Gill and I like to just call and Gill. You know where buddies like that with Gill Gallaud and El Rond and Iran dear all teaming up it was great. I really enjoyed it.

[01:53:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, and we missed the arrow scene because the arrow scene was before this job right I still haven't figured out which arrow I didn't write it in because again when I was doing the recap, I was like, oh, it doesn't matter.

[01:53:50] [SPEAKER_03]: It didn't matter. She I forget her name she was with El Rond's little special forces union. She was an important enough to get us when they fought the ring race and so she goes down like Boramir.

[01:54:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, yeah with multiple arrows which didn't make sense to me because how did all of those arc or archers target her from those multiple direction whatever and it was this big glory death moment scene for her and what is she do she lands.

[01:54:18] [SPEAKER_03]: The arrow in the bucket of pitch that causes the.

[01:54:22] [SPEAKER_03]: The siege engine thing to blow up she finally manages to blow up the final siege engine. Yeah, which he still used damn rod still uses, which I liked the fact that then he just uses it physically and just rams it himself.

[01:54:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So and I couldn't find anything online about that style of siege engine. So I think they made that up wholesale.

[01:54:44] [SPEAKER_09]: It wasn't anything I'd ever heard before not that I'm a you know expert on medieval battle. I know some stuff but that always not anything that was special is they called it a ranger, but that does ravager.

[01:54:54] [SPEAKER_09]: I was trying to remember the name. Yes, yeah, that's not a name I've ever heard mentioned and any kind of yeah we should we should go to the unminigated patent website because he specializes in.

[01:55:05] [SPEAKER_09]: He's a legal battle tactics and machinery and compares it with things of order the rings and other.

[01:55:11] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, all right that might be in there somewhere if he's covering rings at power I don't know if he is right.

[01:55:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, yeah, so she she you know she gets shot a whole bunch and she has this whole writing scene where she's being hit by arrows and then she stands up in the launches the one final arrow that blows up.

[01:55:26] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's the arrow you're talking. Yeah, so that whole scene was just like.

[01:55:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you know, just sort of it but it was very bore a mirror like right where he's getting shot by multiple arrows.

[01:55:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I got him. Yes, I can.

[01:55:40] [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe we need to talk about her tomorrow or whenever we record.

[01:55:44] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, she does show it courage right in these final moments exactly exactly in fact, there's there's a line a couple lines of poetry that I won't spoil here, but that reminded me of exactly that sounds good.

[01:55:57] [SPEAKER_06]: Sarah's under arrest everyone before brings his guards to a restaurant who reveals he has them under his control as well and get some kill each other.

[01:56:07] [SPEAKER_06]: He again demands the nine rings.

[01:56:12] [SPEAKER_06]: This was, this was in the trailers like all the time.

[01:56:16] [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[01:56:16] [SPEAKER_06]: I think one of the latest things they put in the trailers.

[01:56:19] [SPEAKER_06]: And I loved it. I loved what they did with it. I thought it was a ball or move that Sarah on.

[01:56:26] [SPEAKER_06]: was like, yeah, you can think that you have control of yourself, but I'm too far in your head.

[01:56:33] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah. Yeah, it was absolutely ghastly and it was a really

[01:56:37] [SPEAKER_09]: way to demonstrate just how far in he had gotten. I think it's something that often

[01:56:42] [SPEAKER_06]: gets losses at this guy still is a god, right? Like he just has god-like powers and these are all

[01:56:48] [SPEAKER_09]: right. And to him. Which then you kind of trip over when he's limited by things like

[01:56:54] [SPEAKER_09]: a little bit of boredom, no some skill that he doesn't, but whatever. You know? It wasn't part of the

[01:56:59] [SPEAKER_09]: seven secret smithing thing. No, this is secret number eight, I guess, or maybe secret number nine.

[01:57:07] [SPEAKER_06]: So it's the wonders of the middle-earth world. Was he a little a little a little

[01:57:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Vatery for you? Hmm. I did mind it. I was just saying a little dark Vater in my Tolkien.

[01:57:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I did. They did damn rod like they did the walkers on half as well, right? They sort of wrapped

[01:57:27] [SPEAKER_06]: up his legs and tripped him. So it's all like I found your lack of myth rule disturbing.

[01:57:37] [SPEAKER_09]: Tares. Seriously Vater was not going to turn around. I walk out of

[01:57:41] [SPEAKER_09]: how's I doing without the mythical that he came from. Right.

[01:57:45] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. Anyway, I think that a lot to say about the scenic, Sarah's very evil, a very well-excuted

[01:57:52] [SPEAKER_06]: scene and surprised me even though we saw it about a million times in the trailer. We saw one

[01:57:57] [SPEAKER_06]: of it, I guess. We just saw the hand-turn. Yeah, yeah. Well, we did also see the guards. Yeah, but not what they would do.

[01:58:04] [SPEAKER_09]: Right. All right. So the last scene again, it's the context. It's the context. We all exist in

[01:58:10] [SPEAKER_06]: you know. Don't let the coconut sit you in the head as you're. We all exist in the context.

[01:58:17] [SPEAKER_06]: All right, the last scene here, a sunrise. As the sun rises, Elirana announces that the dwarves are coming

[01:58:25] [SPEAKER_06]: for Elirana Revere. The elves look north but Borahir returns wounded telling Elirana that the dwarves

[01:58:34] [SPEAKER_06]: are not coming in the gates of Kazaduma shut. Elirana holds the dying Borahir as the elves fight

[01:58:41] [SPEAKER_06]: the orcs. Elirana deer tries to kill at our, but his unsuccessful and seriously wounded.

[01:58:47] [SPEAKER_06]: And the orcs breets the walls of a reggian. Elirana enters the battle and loses Nenia to at our.

[01:58:57] [SPEAKER_06]: I love Elirana's lock. He's just like, oh damn. He's like, yeah, how did he lose woman? He realized

[01:59:04] [SPEAKER_03]: he makes it out. Exactly. He really was that stupid. Yep. I was trying to see here the I guess

[01:59:12] [SPEAKER_03]: it's around his neck because they hide it really well. Like we never, I never had a hint that he had it.

[01:59:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. And so you know, they never, they never gave us a hint. They never showed it and so for him to

[01:59:27] [SPEAKER_03]: have it in that moment was like, wow, okay. Well, he gets to the armor compartment where Elirana

[01:59:32] [SPEAKER_09]: starts to be easily stored cocaine. Actually, this may actually be an indication of the

[01:59:43] [SPEAKER_09]: faultiness of Elirana's approach to the rings. The reason why he brought it with him on a chain around

[01:59:53] [SPEAKER_09]: his neck was because he did not trust anyone else to not use it. Right. Right. Then that was where

[02:00:03] [SPEAKER_09]: his blindness really bit him in the butt. And of course, we'll have all kinds of exciting

[02:00:10] [SPEAKER_09]: whatever is to get it back again. I am hoping that would be a serious love break if the it

[02:00:16] [SPEAKER_09]: didn't happen but you know, they're certainly living us with a lot of how is this going to be healed

[02:00:22] [SPEAKER_03]: or solved through whatever. One thing too about this whole sequence and from Dameron O'Neill through

[02:00:27] [SPEAKER_03]: just the brutality of melee combat in a medieval setting, it's just brutal, you know, the blood

[02:00:34] [SPEAKER_03]: and the gore and just the brutality. And we really get that in this final scene with Ed R and Elirana,

[02:00:43] [SPEAKER_03]: they're exhausted, they're filthy and you know, they just are at their at their ends of,

[02:00:53] [SPEAKER_03]: of complete inhumanity, I guess you'd say. Because they've been fighting for 24 hours and

[02:00:59] [SPEAKER_09]: virtually there is nothing inhuman about it. I mean, you can read descriptions of

[02:01:04] [SPEAKER_09]: the Anglo-Saxons shield wall put up against the invading by things and how it's just this rush

[02:01:10] [SPEAKER_09]: of bodies to the point where even if you wanted to escape you couldn't. Right. And people are

[02:01:16] [SPEAKER_09]: not unlike World War I falling down and drowning in the mud or getting trampled to death. Right.

[02:01:22] [SPEAKER_09]: Buy their fellows. Right. Because until one side of the other breaks, nobody's going anywhere

[02:01:28] [SPEAKER_03]: and they could be that way for an entire day. And God forbid, you're wounded but not outright killed.

[02:01:37] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, you might be but you'd still be standing up because there's no place to fall. Right. Well,

[02:01:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just in general, just in that medieval setting with the technology and the medicine that

[02:01:45] [SPEAKER_09]: they had at that time and just boon care and all of these things. Yeah, I mean, they don't know what we

[02:01:56] [SPEAKER_09]: do. I'm sure there were some well. Maybe selfish medicine. This was not the time at which

[02:02:06] [SPEAKER_09]: you know, which is we're being tried in burn but you cunning folk and healers still had to be

[02:02:11] [SPEAKER_09]: pretty careful about what they did to not to catch a doubting eye have someone. So was it

[02:02:20] [SPEAKER_03]: so Adar says, you know, you forgot in your room. You'll never make war in anger. Is

[02:02:26] [SPEAKER_03]: room ill the was that who cured on quoted before? Yeah. Okay. Room ill was the drunk and public. Right.

[02:02:35] [SPEAKER_09]: Okay. Yeah. And I don't know what they're referring to. Did that ring any lower bells for you,

[02:02:40] [SPEAKER_03]: John? Not me. Not directly. I just took it as a this could be that could have been something

[02:02:47] [SPEAKER_09]: Sunsu said in the in the I was going to say, it definitely stands more Asian to me, you know,

[02:02:55] [SPEAKER_09]: but is stirred or something along with it. And I possibly even the back of it. Yeah, no,

[02:03:00] [SPEAKER_03]: it's not more it's definitely Sunzuie and I actually did some internet, some like internet

[02:03:07] [SPEAKER_03]: searching around that and I pulled one quote from chapter 12, the ruler may not move his army out of

[02:03:14] [SPEAKER_03]: the general may not do battle out of wrath. Like as I was warning, and there's a whole there's like

[02:03:20] [SPEAKER_03]: a dozen different sort of things about being angry and with your strategy and your tactics and

[02:03:26] [SPEAKER_03]: that kind of stuff. And how it ultimately is not a smart thing to do because it's going to

[02:03:31] [SPEAKER_09]: compromise you in some way. Well anytime I've seen that bumper sticker that says if you're not angry

[02:03:37] [SPEAKER_09]: you're not paying attention my responses if I'm angry I can't pay it. Right. And it's true. Yeah.

[02:03:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I can't. Yeah. Great way to end the episode. Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. And I just noticed as

[02:03:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I because I just had the episode up on my screen it was directed by Charlotte Brandstrom who directed

[02:04:03] [SPEAKER_03]: an earlier episode. Well, a great episode you know she's I think she's really nailed the flow and we did.

[02:04:11] [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah. She she's been directing a lot of episodes. Great. Felix seems familiar the witcher.

[02:04:18] [SPEAKER_03]: She did the man in the high castle. We we got a feedback email about that her too. She

[02:04:22] [SPEAKER_03]: done something like a breaking batter or something or I forget what no I'm trying to read her

[02:04:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Wikipedia but it's in Swedish. Oh, the fact that we did put on a wrong link here folks.

[02:04:34] [SPEAKER_03]: So the last ballot of Damrod featuring Jen's Kidman. I this is a bear. Becary song.

[02:04:42] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, Shogun sorry. Yeah. She's a good. Let's show it. Yeah. All right. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead.

[02:04:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. So this song that's a bear special with the with I don't know who Jen's kid in

[02:04:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Kidman is but the first verse in human mold troll sits alone no friend or kid to call his own

[02:05:03] [SPEAKER_03]: troll knows on skins, raw shanks and shins rips meet from wreaking dragon bone with laughter,

[02:05:11] [SPEAKER_03]: deep and throaty grown he rises from his seat of stone from darkened cave a bloodless craves

[02:05:19] [SPEAKER_09]: set loose upon the hills to roam. Well, you know what that reminds me it's Sam's poem. Okay.

[02:05:27] [SPEAKER_09]: That he makes up on the spot when the yes, Kiddole bumps and all along this one I read it as a

[02:05:36] [SPEAKER_09]: dean. Oh, you're missing. This is when the four hobbits are traveling without a go on to get to

[02:05:43] [SPEAKER_09]: Rivendale and they come across the place where Bilbo encountered the troll right adventures right

[02:05:51] [SPEAKER_09]: and so they're all scared because I think they're real trolls until

[02:05:57] [SPEAKER_09]: Strider goes up and knocks one over the head with a stick and it doesn't do anything they say oh yeah daylight trolls

[02:06:02] [SPEAKER_09]: stone and that's when Sam invented troll he sat on a stone and much than mumbled a bear old bone

[02:06:10] [SPEAKER_09]: for many a day he's something or there's something because meat was hard to come by. So

[02:06:15] [SPEAKER_09]: it did perfectly that this song yeah that's right. I get a sense of some inspiration. If you just

[02:06:21] [SPEAKER_03]: get nearly adaptation if you do an internet search for the last ballative dam rod that you can

[02:06:26] [SPEAKER_03]: get to lyrics the song is out pummeled so yeah there's it's the music metal music yeah it's

[02:06:33] [SPEAKER_09]: it's a yeah did you know this do it? No but I did I did see a a BTS behind the scenes with bear

[02:06:43] [SPEAKER_09]: curious neighbors to know in clips of the metal musician. I think even if you'd hung on for

[02:06:47] [SPEAKER_03]: the credits for like one beat longer you would have heard it kick in because it is a very metal song so

[02:06:53] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah yeah it's a lot of fun let's see episode huh? That sure is only two hours and 10 minutes in

[02:07:03] [SPEAKER_06]: I think we're you know what I think we're finding a flow here seven episodes in you know

[02:07:09] [SPEAKER_06]: it's hard to believe we're almost done I know I know. I just cannot imagine

[02:07:16] [SPEAKER_09]: how they're gonna give us a satisfactory ending in episode eight. Well let's get let's let's

[02:07:22] [SPEAKER_03]: let's wrap up. Let's wrap up the pods so we can all go watch it.

[02:07:26] [SPEAKER_06]: I'll watch it. Yes yes. All right all right real quick programming.

[02:07:30] [SPEAKER_06]: All right this is a nurse. Yeah I have I have

[02:07:34] [SPEAKER_06]: consolidated our week because we have so many out this week I had it I had to like definitely

[02:07:39] [SPEAKER_06]: write a schedule this week. Yeah good thing we got this one we got a feedback episode for episodes five

[02:07:45] [SPEAKER_06]: through seven yep we've got Agatha all along yep which is yeah season two episode three you're

[02:07:52] [SPEAKER_06]: gonna host that with John yeah you're something for Alicia. Oh I'm just something for Alicia just

[02:07:56] [SPEAKER_06]: for one episode. Oh that's right she's gonna be elsewhere. She's also did the penguin

[02:08:02] [SPEAKER_06]: instant reaction to the first. Yeah John and I hopped on the mic really quick in.

[02:08:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Look at your David going all I'm seeing you again. Well you know the penguin is not

[02:08:13] [SPEAKER_03]: the penguin is something else it's it's it's it's not straight up comics it is it's a character

[02:08:19] [SPEAKER_03]: it's a really fascinating character drama that's set in a in a superhero world but it's not about

[02:08:25] [SPEAKER_06]: superheroes. It's very interesting but it's great how what it's really well with secret invasion

[02:08:31] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm just kidding. Yeah so we cranked that out that was a lot of fun. Yeah I listened to the

[02:08:44] [SPEAKER_06]: spoiler for each step that was very cool I got a watch so show. Yeah very important we we we

[02:08:48] [SPEAKER_03]: spend the first human is just talking about why we think it's a worthwhile show and people want

[02:08:52] [SPEAKER_03]: to check it out um so that's all spoiler free if you want to get our our reasons why and then we

[02:08:58] [SPEAKER_03]: get into I think we did it we did a more character analysis rather than a plot analysis so yeah

[02:09:05] [SPEAKER_06]: and then Alicia and Brandon did a one shot on Beetlejuice Beetlejuice. Yeah which was a very fun

[02:09:11] [SPEAKER_06]: movie I listened to that podcast they they did a phenomenal job breaking it down. I wrote in an email

[02:09:16] [SPEAKER_06]: because I was sick when they recorded Ron who's another co-host over here pops up every now and then

[02:09:22] [SPEAKER_06]: he showed up via voice mail so we got we got plenty of feedback they they did a really good job

[02:09:28] [SPEAKER_06]: to get in that movie the ups downs everything in between and we also have on the Patreon and

[02:09:36] [SPEAKER_06]: supercast of these are our subscribers on the Patreon and supercast side so for our subscribers

[02:09:41] [SPEAKER_06]: we have the rings of power lorecast for this episode which we're gonna be doing Marilyn on

[02:09:48] [SPEAKER_06]: the circle of light and can you give like a quick one sentence what it is

[02:09:55] [SPEAKER_09]: this is like there's a couple of different ways of describing what Tolkien called Northern

[02:10:03] [SPEAKER_09]: Courage taken from bail-off and other Anglo-Saxon poem called the Battle of Maldon the notion of

[02:10:10] [SPEAKER_09]: Courage and what that means and how it manifests. Cool okay very cool so we're doing that

[02:10:19] [SPEAKER_06]: and that'll be out on Sunday then also on the oh and I wanted to say season pass holders of course

[02:10:24] [SPEAKER_06]: we'll get that too but what the season pass holders won't get you can get on the recurring

[02:10:29] [SPEAKER_06]: subscriptions is our 11s episode on prey the 2021-2 predator film it's just you know fun hour

[02:10:35] [SPEAKER_06]: hour and a half conversation on this predator movie which is actually very good and it's like a

[02:10:41] [SPEAKER_06]: period beast yeah it's great it's cool stuff really it's one other thing before I go to affiliates is

[02:10:47] [SPEAKER_06]: the three of us are going to be appearing on this joint collaborative effort

[02:10:52] [SPEAKER_06]: with Aaron from lure the rings who you may have heard on some early in stories and

[02:10:58] [SPEAKER_06]: DNA from captain's pod which is a Star Trek pod we are all the five of us going to be talking about

[02:11:07] [SPEAKER_06]: the whole season of the rings of power for a couple hours to full two hours on October 11th live

[02:11:15] [SPEAKER_06]: from eight to 10 p.m. Eastern time this is a paid event I will say that because it is multiple

[02:11:23] [SPEAKER_06]: podcasts so everyone agreed to you know put a put a paywall on it a small paywall mostly to keep people

[02:11:30] [SPEAKER_06]: from coming in and being like tour suck you know like I don't like the casting so it's two

[02:11:39] [SPEAKER_06]: bucks for the early bird and then three bucks for general admission the early bird is bi October

[02:11:43] [SPEAKER_06]: first so make sure you sign up right away if you want to do it I'm going to put the link in the

[02:11:47] [SPEAKER_06]: show notes but you can get to it the link is ringspodcast.com slash live and I will put that

[02:11:53] [SPEAKER_06]: in the show notes as well you can get a ticket now so that's going to be the five of us three

[02:11:57] [SPEAKER_06]: three podcasts five people I think we're going to do need a portion of profits to a charity

[02:12:03] [SPEAKER_06]: yeah it has something to do with talking I don't know the specific charity yet but here it was

[02:12:08] [SPEAKER_09]: suggesting the charity of uh to had something to do with supporting of orphans because both

[02:12:13] [SPEAKER_06]: you and his wife eat if we're orphans themselves right right so I just didn't want to go any

[02:12:19] [SPEAKER_06]: go too specific because I don't know exactly the charity yet let's do but we definitely will be

[02:12:25] [SPEAKER_06]: donating a portion of profits to charity so go sign up if you want to be part of that live event

[02:12:30] [SPEAKER_06]: we'll have you know a live chat in there Aaron's hosting on this cool platform called Crowdcast

[02:12:35] [SPEAKER_06]: that's sort of four live podcasts so yeah it's cool I'm really looking forward to that

[02:12:41] [SPEAKER_06]: it's gonna be really interesting yeah and uh now for our affiliates on never mind the music

[02:12:48] [SPEAKER_06]: our newest affiliate we've got uh true by Spandow ballet is that the way I say this

[02:12:57] [SPEAKER_08]: she's just crying give me your best shot there John you got it right you're a save me

[02:13:04] [SPEAKER_06]: and the money notes of a middle school dance mm-hmm I wasn't doing it it was a really great episode

[02:13:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I haven't even had me laugh at it a lot of points yeah I saw you chatting with them and I was

[02:13:15] [SPEAKER_06]: I got it cute up so yeah it's really good it's really good I haven't gotten to that one yet either

[02:13:20] [SPEAKER_09]: really really good if you've ever had that oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh

[02:13:26] [SPEAKER_06]: stuck in your head that that's the song they're doing yeah oh that one yeah they're laughing

[02:13:30] [SPEAKER_03]: on the one the the previous one uh on uh cover was really fascinating I loved how they layered in all

[02:13:39] [SPEAKER_06]: different stuff yeah so go check that out and we have some special plans brewing to bring Mark on

[02:13:46] [SPEAKER_06]: for an end of season bit about this is a power so stay tuned for that radio active

[02:13:53] [SPEAKER_06]: ramlings are second newest podcast uh is back they're doing an episode on fallout lore again

[02:14:00] [SPEAKER_06]: on the wasteland beasty area that sounds exciting a lot of creatures creepy crawly is going around

[02:14:06] [SPEAKER_06]: in their radioactive nonsense so welcome back radio active ramlings and wolves shift dust on their

[02:14:14] [SPEAKER_06]: book club Alicia is doing the parts three and four of dust this is the last book of the wolves

[02:14:21] [SPEAKER_06]: shift dust series so go check out her uh her website and her um her feed if you want to know more

[02:14:27] [SPEAKER_06]: details about that all right everyone it's been a blast should we um yeah should we have a good

[02:14:35] [SPEAKER_06]: time with some of some of these uh thank you's yeah you want to hit me with the thank you list

[02:14:42] [SPEAKER_06]: yep can do I don't have music cute up but okay that was waiting for a lot you want to you

[02:14:48] [SPEAKER_06]: are music I can give you my new theme song okay all right all right you're ready yeah again this

[02:14:56] [SPEAKER_06]: this is a theme song I'm working on it's a loop of it so it's not it's not the total finished

[02:15:01] [SPEAKER_06]: what's gonna go in the beginning of a podcast but it's for a project I'm working on so

[02:15:05] [SPEAKER_03]: enjoy the teaser wow that an interesting project server discord boot uh discord server booster

[02:15:21] [SPEAKER_03]: is novels Aaron Kaye tiller the thriller doorca the ninjas do 71 captain gingery 56 Athena Adelaeah

[02:15:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Adrian Tina Lestu, NTM and Ghost to Predition thank you all so very much for boosting the server

[02:15:37] [SPEAKER_03]: making a better place for our community lore masters top tier subscribers they make our world go

[02:15:44] [SPEAKER_03]: round summation Michael G Michelle E David W Brian P S C Peter OH between a W Adam S

[02:15:52] [SPEAKER_03]: NTM do 71 Brian 863 Frederick H Sarah L Garrif C Eric F Matthew M Sarah M DJ Mila

[02:16:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Andreby Kong Yu Jedi Jedi Bob Nathan T Malax V Aaron T Sub Zero Aaron Kaye

[02:16:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Dali V Mothership 61 Naurals Kathy W Lestu Jeffrey B Liseu Fasiunil fbnb Charlotte M and

[02:16:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Drian thank you all so very much thanks to everyone who listens thank you thank you thank you and

[02:16:32] [SPEAKER_03]: we will see you on the next.