The Rings of Power - S02E08 - Shadow and Flame

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[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Welcome to The Rings of Power podcast. We are the Lorehounds, your guides to Tolkien's world of Middle Earth. I'm David.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm Grand Elf.

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm John.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm Marilyn. This is our coverage for the final episode of Prime Video's original series, The Lord of the Rings, The Rings of Power. Season 2, Episode 8.

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_06]: We're going to start off with our hot takes and then we will get into a detailed scene by scene breakdown of the episode.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_03]: If you'd like to contact us, send emails to lotrthelorehounds.com.

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_03]: If you want to join our Discord server or support the community by subscribing on Supercaster Patreon, check out the link tree in the show notes below.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_06]: And of course if you are not into recurring subscriptions but you would like to support the podcast and the community and all that we do,

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_06]: you can find a link to our season pass even though the season is over.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_06]: You can still pay ten bucks as flat one-time fee and you will have forever access to the ad-free versions of this podcast and all of the Lorecasts and the show guide,

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_06]: which we hand lovingly handcraft every week to give you bonus material for what's going on in the show.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_04]: And we use artisanal keyboards.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Come on, you're going to get two Starbucks or are you going to get to click on a picture of Grand Elf?

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Right, why don't we just jump right in?

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_04]: We're not saying it. It was painful enough.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_06]: Two are hot takes.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm never going to wear this one, go.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_06]: Is Grand Elf's heart bigger than his feet?

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_06]: No.

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_06]: What are your hot takes?

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, before I get into my hot takes, I just wanted to say that this has appeared in a couple of servers and whatnot in discussion but

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_04]: in episode seven I really, in my role as an historian, wished that I pointed out that the river mud really would not have allowed any armies to run across it the way we saw

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_04]: and never mind dragging siege engines behind them.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm using as an example the battle of Ejingklo in 1405.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_04]: It was a plowed field, so very muddy and chunky whatever, but it had been raining on it all the previous day and it was just a sea of mud

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_04]: and the charging knights on horseback fell in droves.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_04]: And then when they struggled to get to their feet to confront each other, they just fell over if they didn't fall face first and drown in the mud.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_04]: So they were really weighing jazz hands with that river bottom mud and whatnot.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Of course, if it was rocks it wouldn't have been a whole lot better anyway, right?

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_04]: But they would have done better just to leave the river in place and have them quietly building boats to sail across.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_04]: But since Peter Jackson had already done that in a previous movie, maybe they just decided to ignore physics.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, sometimes you just gotta do stuff for the show.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you do, but as a medieval historian I just felt like...

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Damn! I don't know, there's some debatability there.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_06]: They did, I did see the Ravager as they call it which that historically I think is more suspect than trying to cross a dried riverbed.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_06]: But anyway, is this our pyroclastic flow moment?

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_03]: No, it's nowhere near as severe.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_04]: I guess it all depends on your background, doesn't it?

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I think this is nowhere near as severe and plus, I mean look, this is a cinematic universe I'm going to say that has elves skating on their shields.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_03]: So like whatever, it's fine.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, let's get into...

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_04]: We can talk about that too, but I will talk about my hot takes instead.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Definitely an action packed final episode and there was one particularly poignant surprise event

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_04]: that I absolutely didn't see coming and a boss battle I didn't really need, but okay, you know, ended the season.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, gotta have a boss battle I guess.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm glad that they left us in as much of a good place as they could at this point in time

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_04]: and they addressed most of the plotlines so I really didn't feel like I was dangling over a cliff with anybody

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_04]: and I appreciated that because we don't know how long it's going to be before they start up next season.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_04]: There were many things that were beautiful and evocative and powerful, even if I would have made some different choices, but you know, that's okay.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_04]: And there's so much about fathers and children.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_04]: It's really kind of interesting what you notice that it just comes at you from all directions.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_04]: I wish they could also have had mothers and children, but in this case, they only have dead mothers so far which is certainly in keeping with fairy tale tradition.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_04]: But Alas, Tolkien just simply didn't write all that many women characters to begin with so there just weren't a lot to draw from.

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Can I just say on that point, the...

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_03]: So somebody had requested an email at some point.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't remember if we address it on there that I added a section to the show guide where I divide the characters by canon and non-canon.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_03]: These are primarily non-canon characters like by a wide margin and so they absolutely could have added female characters.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think I'm going to blame the showrunners more than Tolkien on that one.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Interesting.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I guess they figured they didn't have time to show parents and children when they were little children.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_04]: It was mostly the parents of the kids who are adult and active and what not.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_03]: More or less.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Well go on anyway.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_04]: No that's it.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh I'm sorry.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_03]: If I cut things short I'm sorry.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_04]: You didn't.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_04]: I had gone through my list and I'm eager to hear what you guys have to say.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_03]: John?

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_03]: David, you make pancakes.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_03]: You tell me a lot.

[00:06:48] What?

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_03]: You got to keep stirring the pancakes until there's no more lumps in it.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_03]: They didn't do that with this episode.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh okay I see where you're going.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_03]: There were lumps all around.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_04]: I thought we were back to the river mud again.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_03]: But you know just watching this episode I think there was a lot of really good stuff in it.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I also think there were parts that made me cringe out of my skin.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Hmm.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Ow.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Sounds painful.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Not a pleasant experience.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_03]: That's true I was writhing on the floor like killer brim board today.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_03]: No I think that it had so many good parts and I think it wrapped up a lot of the potlines

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_03]: really satisfactorily but I think that they are just way too attached to homages to Peter Jackson.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh here here.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_03]: And I've heard that criticism before about this season and the show in general.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm usually in the camp of Peter Jackson was the first Lord of the Rings content I ever consumed.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm usually on board with the whole actually that's not true.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I watched the animated movie for the Hobbit first but anyway point is that was my first big thing right.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_03]: That was the first thing that got me into this world so I'm usually fine with all the Peter Jackson references you want.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_03]: But it was like so heavy handed this episode in a way that made me go alright tell your own story.

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Just tell your own story.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_03]: For the love of God tell your own story.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_03]: For the love of Eru.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And so I just wish we were able to break away from that.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I did feel like some plotlines just resolved a little clumsily.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean we'll talk about Gandalf when we get there but my god they're just they are just determined to give Gandalf the worst line of the season every season.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_03]: From last from last seasons I am good.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_03]: To this season's I suppose they're going to call me Gandalf.

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And I just I don't know what it is about writing this character but they cannot get the dialogue right.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Well I have much to say about that very topic when we get there so.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_03]: But anyway just on positives I think the dwarf stuff other than parts of the dorm bait stuff very good.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_03]: I really enjoyed how the elf stuff all worked out.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I really enjoyed the confrontation between Galadriel and Sauron.

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Really great stuff.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Kela Brimboar's dialogue was fantastic.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought that there were really good lines dropped at various points especially from the dark wizard which I'll get to later.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_03]: So a lot of good stuff mixed bag overall successful finale.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I am excited for season three.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_03]: That's all I want to say.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_03]: David.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_06]: I am not far off from either of you.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_06]: The first time I was actually feeling a little under the weather when you guys recorded the I think the the lower cast or the feedback.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_06]: I forget what you did both.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah but which I am trying to remember which night and while you were doing that I was like well let me let me try to you know do my job and as a as a podcaster so I was like I'll watch episode eight.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_06]: And I found myself drifting and looking at my phone and kind of feeling odd and uncomfortable and I was like is this because I'm sick and I don't have the mental capacity to like really focus on what I'm seeing here or is this because the show is like not firing in all cylinders.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_06]: So then today when I did my second watch and my detailed notes.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_06]: And this has happened on other shows in the past.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_06]: Even I think in the season a little bit seen by scene everything's pretty good on paper.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_06]: It's all there.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_06]: It all makes sense.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_06]: All the resolutions make sense for where we want to end up and where we want to leave things off to start season three.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_06]: And somehow and I think and I was wondering because one of you said this in our in our private chat was that it was so Jacksonian and I was like is that was it like they over salted it and then that's what sort of.

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Sour the broth is just got too much salt in it and it just throw it sort of threw everything else off.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_06]: And I was like you know and then was some of the fight choreography off was the this the the oh the dwarves have shown up and they have machine gun crossbows and you know obviously they're going to have a mechanic across whatever it's all good.

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_06]: But it was just there were there were like you said John there are lumps in the batter and not everything was fully stirred in.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_06]: So I'm just kind of left like I don't know it was fine.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_06]: It wasn't horrible like it didn't it didn't break anything.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_06]: It didn't break cannon.

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_06]: It wasn't like a soka where we were like wait a minute you were we're going in this one direction and then you did a 180 and then you moved us back the other direction and that doesn't make sense.

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_06]: And it just it felt a little long which again is a jacks Peter Jackson tradition having several endings.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_03]: And honestly and the film right that's that's in the original.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_03]: It is Texas having several of these.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah having so many threats even have an extra one that Jackson cut of the scouring of the shire but this is on screen right this is on screen is you know what we've got to find that balance we have to you know do the shippy test and like OK are we are we getting to what we need from the core message to make it work on screen.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_06]: It was 108 minutes this episode from according to my you know checking the timecode on our thing.

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_06]: So yeah I think I'm with you guys where I'm like there's a lot of great scenes a lot of great dialogue pretty happy with the season overall we'll have a whole season wrap up and we'll get into our whole season thoughts.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_06]: And I just kind of felt like a little bit left down after episode seven because episode seven just was was on fire and season yeah episode it was just kind of like not sure what we're doing here.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Not sure how all these pieces fit together.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah you know after episode seven I thought to myself as long as they land the plane here we're OK for season three like this was a good season.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_03]: If they give me a clunky finale I'll be fine.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And they give me a clunky finale right like it was it's a little clunky but it's it's got some good stuff it's got some not so good stuff.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that it does set up a lot of good stuff for season three and I do appreciate that they were no major what will happen cliffhangers because I think it's extremely frustrating when people do that.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Particularly when you have to wait two years before you get any answers.

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I like your knowledge books to tell you everything that's going to happen like don't give me like what will happen cliffhanger that's so stupid.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Well that's true. That's true. I like your analogy David of the salty soup. I think you know PJ is a very strong flavor and a little goes along.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_06]: A little I think Marilyn you've you've summed it up nicely. A little goes a long way. I don't need five or six different lines. What orders my Lord's hour on you know what was another one.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_06]: The I don't want to get all negative. I've got notes on them later. Well but I think you're right. I think a little goes a long way and I think they went too far.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_03]: All I have one which is the first time I've said that this season. It is same with me. Same with me. I think because I've been fine all season. I was that threshold. Yeah.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah they definitely crossed a threshold particularly with one scene that I was really looking forward to and it just completely wrecked for me.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_04]: No but.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_04]: It really took me down.

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah it took us down.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_04]: It really took me down.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_06]: But we're I think yeah we'll do a season wrap up. We're going to combine a final feedback in our season wrap up all in one so please send in your thoughts to LOTR at thelorehounds.com

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_04]: And be prepared for a 3R episode.

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you again to all of our season pass and regular subscribers. You have made this a really successful season for us. We're really happy.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_06]: It's this show this season has been a game changer for us as a podcast in more ways than one and in your support with the season pass has really given us a lot of courage.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_06]: The circle of light has expanded because of all of you season pass holders.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Should I sing my song?

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Do you have a song?

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_03]: You didn't listen to the podcast then David.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_06]: I am three quarters of the way through.

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_06]: I had to take my daughter to it.

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Well I did it in the first like three seconds so I don't believe you now.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh no did I?

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_03]: In the circle of light.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah I didn't really that was more of a song.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_06]: It's just a vibe.

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought you did a whole song.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Well if you want to hear more you'll have to get on the Lorecast.

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly and for the Lorecast just a reminder last episode was courage and circle of light. See I'm not calling it northern courage. I listened.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_06]: I heard you John.

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I just wanted to put it in context.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I think you absolutely should have.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Absolutely.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_04]: I was looking for another word too.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Didn't want to be restrictive.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_06]: The one before that was on Urx.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_06]: Before that we did the politics of Numenor and before that Bombadil and then before that Myar and then up next Maryland is.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_04]: On fairy stories and eukatastrophe.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_06]: If you want to find out what eukatastrophe is you could look on Wikipedia or you could come listen to the Lorecast.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Well I don't know both but I think the Lorecast is better.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_03]: You brought that up in the season one wrap-up I think.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_03]: When I was talking about it.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah that was one of your first podcasts with us full podcast.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_03]: You came on and you were like eukatastrophe.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_06]: What?

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_06]: I had no catastrophe.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Eukatastrophe?

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Wee catastrophe.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_06]: As always a quick reminder we're watching screeners so we don't have subtitles or titles for the episodes.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_06]: There's nothing to spoil ahead because this is it and again Nancy is going to be.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Is Nancy on vacation or is she on vacation?

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_03]: She is on vacation.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay right so we're on our own.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh gosh we have to do our own job.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_06]: What are we gonna do?

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_06]: We will be on the other end of the emails compiling those and so please get them in.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Voice mail, use your voice mail app on your phone.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Use the website littleapp if you go to lorehounds.com or use the contact form there.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_06]: We would really welcome.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_06]: There's a lot of garbage out.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_06]: There's a lot of garbage on the internet?

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Jays Pris.

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Shock whir.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_06]: But then I also know that there's a lot of people who are really enjoying that and I think again in that idea of having courage and expanding the circle of light.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Send in your critiques, your thoughts, your opinions that

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_06]: further the dialogue and the conversation and the fellowship of this pretty cool television show.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean it's been a great season so far.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I think so.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_03]: So far it's over.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_03]: It's over.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_03]: There's no judging it so far anymore David.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_03]: It's over.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_04]: This season yes.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay enough of all the blah blah let's get into the scene by scene.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Alright we start off with Duren's bane.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Duren IV confronts his father Doren III and begs him to remove his ring.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_03]: The king refuses and digs through a wall into a large cavern with veins of mithril.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Doren the younger looks to be at a loss of words, a loss for words rather, until the Balrog an ancient spirit of fire attacks the two Doren's.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Doren the older removes his ring and bids a fond farewell to his son before attacking the Balrog when the two clash the entrance to the Balrog's lair collapses.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_06]: So yes Marilyn what do you.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_04]: This was so perfect.

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_04]: The only thing that I objected to was where's the army that adores that was fighting that Prince Duren had to not send out his army to Reggae on board.

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_04]: That's a good question.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_04]: That was a really weak point for me.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Having gotten over my disappointment with all that.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I just I loved this.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I absolutely loved it.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Classic determined courage moment here.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Talk about knowing that you're going to be toast literally and doing it anyway because that's the thing to do.

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_04]: I loved the final scenes of this father-son interaction.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I just thought it was great.

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I never let you lift your hand.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_04]: It was you getting stronger.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean such affirmation from a father to a son.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_04]: So great.

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_04]: And interesting that he did finally take the ring off.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_04]: And leave it on the ledge there.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's like okay how what did he how what was he thinking about that ring at the end?

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean I think he knew that it had changed him and altered him.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_04]: So his son would corrupt it.

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_06]: John would you cue my little music or my little clip there?

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I have whatever you put in here.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes play it down.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I feel the good in you.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_03]: The conflict.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh my God.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_03]: There's some Star Wars here.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_03]: There's some Harry Potter later.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know the Harry Potter.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Marilyn knows she's done scholarly work on Harry Potter.

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_06]: I think I saw it on her website.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_06]: I read the first book once I think and that was about it.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_03]: I come from the Harry Potter generation.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_03]: There was no escaping it for me.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_06]: That's true.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_04]: I talked about Gen HP so I think you do qualify John.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_04]: The only other thing was interesting like for the first time in two seasons it occurred to me that the dwarven crown is a teeny bit reminiscent of Warthogs.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe they learned the seven smithing secrets and Sarron reforged it like that.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Pokey like that.

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_06]: There was a lot of Mithril that was down there.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm confused.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_04]: I guess it was Mithril but at one point I thought it was gold but maybe that just because of the golden color of the fire of the beast that was.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah no one knows.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it was Mithril.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah because it was kind of silvery blue.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_04]: That's right in the beginning it was silvery blue.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_06]: The destiny of Duren.

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_04]: So what did you guys think?

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_06]: John?

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't like when he said fly you fools.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_03]: No.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it was a little Jacksonian but it was fine.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_03]: It was fine.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think I was quite as enamored with the scene as you were Marilyn.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_03]: OK.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_03]: But I think overall good it did feel like a bit of a heel turn at the end for Duren the third in a way that I wasn't expecting.

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Why the Orph Arby wasn't there.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I like to think Duren IV was like hey let's not all go in there with blades first let me deal with him first.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_03]: You know son Doren to Doren and then if you guys need take care of it after we're both done fighting fine.

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Right I think that feels very Dourbus to me right.

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah but I think the other time out you know he slaughtered my people and dead bodies everywhere and you know we're about to fall apart here and then it turns out being you know.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_04]: What Ford Wars total.

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah it just it confused me and yes the very first scene that we the first image that we see of the Balrog was total Peter Jackson I didn't have that but I kind of.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean it is Duren's Bane right it is the the flame of Odun a nameless terror you know the name how is it a nameless terror if it has a name anyway.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_03]: It is the same.

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_06]: The Balrog is like it's class of being right there are many Balrogs right exactly and this one was Duren's Bane that's the name of this one which is in the movie and here.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Because I don't think they don't call it here do they know they don't but that's what we know now post post Jackson.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah well but also so the whole thing with the Balrog if we didn't I don't think we talked about this this season because we talked about it in season one is that they've moved it back in age right.

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_03]: So Duren's Bane does not become Doren's Bane until the third age when you know cause I can't I don't want to spoil too much because in between the similar learnings but anyway there's a Balrog incident in the third age that really makes it Doren's Bane because.

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Doren to Doren to Doren to Doren is the king line got it okay.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_04]: But they've kind of messed that up too because it you know lore wise there were other people between right yeah yeah.

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_06]: This is where I think in the moment I had you know when when Duren three is you know leaping out there and that final act of courageous moment which is I don't know you know nobody's going to do anything to this Balrog so like why even try.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay fine.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_06]: The one thing that I do agree with you with Marilyn is that this is the one place where I'm feeling the hand of the writers trying to create this dramatic tension between you know well it's a it's a grand Elf's dilemma trolley dilemma again right like do I go with my friend or do I you know do.

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_06]: The right or do I protect my people or what have you and the they I think they create a false mechanism here which is like oh I've got to keep an entire army back.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_06]: For what so that I can go into a little cave tunnel right right so this feels to me like the writer and then we get a dramatic moment where the where the dwarves sweep in and save the day woohoo.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_06]: And and it just it it it's it feels right or it feels like they're taking some standard writing mechanical.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Pieces and doing this and I think it didn't work in the end for me what they could have done simply was just to have the elf come staggering back and say Duren is in mourning he's not coming.

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_06]: There you go yeah.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_04]: And they could have moved all this nonsense about right this army that army whatever right right.

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean at the same time I got feels I got feels between the sun stuff exactly this this idea I love this question of strength versus power.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm breaking it that way just because I'm not using the word strong twice but strength versus power strength to wield the weapon but not powerful enough to use it as you know as you're intending yeah I can lift the axe.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_03]: But do I actually have the willpower to you know swing it at the person that I'm swinging it at yeah and also in the last scene of this whole episode of the season we get this whole dichotomy of light versus power right exactly exactly.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think that perhaps comes into the scene as well.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_04]: And I was glad that we had the short opening music in this final episode.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah just saying.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_04]: And then.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh another thought I had to which I thought was interesting with the whole thing with the ring.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_06]: You know this is during destiny and and he says you know that it's our mountain and and during the fourth says no you didn't teach me that you told you taught me that it the mountain is the mountain and then we get to and that really brought to me brought forward to me the question of power of versus power over.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_06]: The ring gives them power over the mountain.

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Nice.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_06]: But with the ring just normal like we have to work with the mountain we have to listen and sing and power with the mountain is the power and we're just sort of you know we're farmers we're we're miners instead of farmers we have to work within the seasons and the way that you know build the right things and dot it up so yeah I thought that brought that theme forward nicely.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah and I think.

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_03]: So Ron also brings up you know power over people of course that's this whole yes but Caleb remember kind of points out later and we'll talk about this but.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Power over something opens you up to being overpowered by it right it opens up that competition power of something like the elves with their rings bring balance to things that does not invite overpowering.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Interesting you can't flip the power dynamic if you don't have one.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Right right right which I think is.

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Did we I mean it feels like there's some earth sea related concept you know that Ursula K. like when was using a little bit of that as well not in a direct one on one sense but just in a sense of philosophical sense of.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah you know if you know if you're pushing hard on the wind and using all this stuff it's going to it's going to change the system.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_06]: And if we're and if you're not maybe that's a slightly different argument it's just that the yeah I'm trying to.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_06]: I see what you're saying and I'm just trying to feel it out John a little bit more so right go find your goats and come back to me.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I think what it possibly what one thing could be is one gets says that at the end of the day the most skilled act of magic is to do only what you must do.

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_04]: And often that means not doing anything.

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's a very different approach.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_06]: This is do we don't have much ring lore around the doors it's like they've got them.

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_06]: No yeah.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_04]: No it all it says is it enhances their greed.

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And they're gold lust right.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_03]: The gold lust.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah that's about all.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_04]: But they also say that each of the seven hordes had as its basis a ring.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_06]: Right right.

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_04]: So there is that sense of you know that they used it to gain wealth and so forth but you know overstepping as we saw a couple of times you know well he never used to you know greed was never his way.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_04]: So that I think was a nice solid.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's a nice fleshing out of the dwarven ring lore.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_04]: And yet him saying to him you know you're going to need a ring in order to you know understand them out in the way I have.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Was a little worry making.

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes indeed indeed yeah we have some questions there.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_06]: This is also we got another kiss here we had a Disa and Durin kiss I think a lot of people will be happy with that.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't I didn't think you know there was I there was some discussion about the Elrond Galadriel kiss but it was more people bracing for the impact than the actual impact I didn't think it was that crazy making.

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah people didn't seem to have a visceral reaction which I think actually shows a mature audience that they were able to see the nuance in it.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_04]: I really don't get why so many people were clutching their pearls and studying the area.

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_06]: I think we were worried for the crazy trolls on the internet overreact.

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_04]: I guess I guess.

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_03]: So shall we move on to a scene that I call an old friend and I want to before we start the scene I want to highlight that.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I think there was another theme in throughout this episode which was false friends.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_03]: People waving a French flag.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Nice.

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay when they are not your friend and this is the first scene that appears in there's there's more and I'll put them out as we go through.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_03]: The stranger arrives at store central to find the dark wizard.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Bronk holds the hard foot at knife point and the dark wizards pretends to be a good guy and saves Poppy and Nori from the Raiders.

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_03]: The dark wizard tries to convince the stranger to defeat Sauron with him and become his successor.

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_03]: But the stranger declines.

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_03]: The dark wizard causes a landslide that destroys the store home but the stranger uses his magic to stop the rocks from killing the stores.

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_06]: This between the dark wizard and Sauron it's pretty toxic gas situation here in Middle Earth.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_06]: These guys are gaslighting the hell out of everyone around them.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_03]: That was wild.

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Keep saying my old friend my old friend.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_03]: As soon as I heard that I was just oh dearie me.

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Alright I want everyone to place your bet who is it?

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Well Sauron of course.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_03]: You think it is Sauron?

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Of course it is.

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I will hate if it's Sauron.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm already hating it.

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Because Gandalf if this is Sauron and Gandalf gets duped in the third age on the ring stuff.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Then Gandalf is stupid.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't think that fits his character so if this is Sauron I will be very upset.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I will genuinely be very upset with the show.

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And you guys know I am very kind on letting the lore slide with these guys.

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_03]: As long as it's trivia that's fine.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_03]: This will fundamentally change characterizations in the future and I don't like that.

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_03]: So let's just hope that it's not.

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think they're going to because this was already showing that he tried to dupe them and he failed.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_06]: It would be weird.

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Bizarre.

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Unless you're saying that they both got mind wiped.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_06]: Who knows?

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_06]: He does say there were five of us right so we have Sauron, Gandalf, Radagast and then the two blues.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Yup.

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_06]: They're keeping the blues alive in a sense.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_06]: But I think my greater disappointment and I think this goes back and I'm still resolving my feelings about eight.

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, because there was like we said there's a lot of good stuff a lot of whatever stuff.

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_06]: But I think this would be I would have been excited if they had stuck with the blues.

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_06]: If these were just two blues that would have been their own story.

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Of course.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_06]: And they would have been making a nice big swing and you know making a stand.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_06]: But I think it goes back to the Jackson thing where like, well we're going to just keep playing with I get it.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_06]: You've got to lay track for the casual fans but damn it man also swing out a little bit right take a risk.

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Well I think you also have a rights issue here.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh good point.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Nothing on the blue wizards.

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_03]: You have the fact that there are five wizards.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_03]: That's a really good point.

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I wasn't thinking about that at all.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_03]: You have an vacuum of information there so it wouldn't have been able to call them blue wizards I'm pretty sure.

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_03]: They would not have been able to give them the names from the extended lore which they're I think there are two sets of them actually so they can.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_04]: There are.

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_03]: But anyway they wouldn't have been able to pull anything so I'm okay.

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that it's necessarily obvious for them to do the blue wizards because of that.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I would have liked it but I don't blame them on that.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I will really hate if it's Saramon.

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Now you know it could be Radigast because Radigast you know Sylvester McCoy played Radigast in the movie and he was the seventh doctor so he can regenerate.

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_06]: No I'm sorry.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_06]: You're getting some Dr. Hooley.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't care how eternally is.

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_03]: See I just wanted to make a Dr. Hoo joke.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah that's all right.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay check off that box.

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_04]: I just think it would have been less likely for them to be sued if they're going into unwritten territory at this point.

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_06]: They wouldn't even have to call them blues.

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_06]: They could have just made up two wizards out in the West.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah and they didn't have to call them you know the names that we know and they're just they could have been so creative.

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah yeah.

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_04]: And given us so many interesting ideas about this.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a kind elf.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I just and I really don't understand why they're doing it because if you are a Jackson fan.

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_04]: You know you don't need these sort of teases and hints and whatever you know already if you know nothing about it whatsoever all of these teases and hints are going to be utterly meaningless and you're just going to say why do they keep calling a grand elf.

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_04]: You know what's that supposed to be.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't understand who they think they're targeting with this.

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_06]: And it goes back to what we were saying before too much salt they just over seasoned here with this.

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_03]: These cowards didn't want to do a nude Ian McKellen sir Ian McKellen crashing into the earth with a meteor.

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Well I'm sorry.

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Cowards.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Cowards.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_04]: They did it carefully and tastefully and that was fine.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Sour money Gandalf style conflict in some ways.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_03]: It's literally just a rehash of it is.

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Join me again Sauron.

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_03]: No OK then you'll suffer.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_04]: And a couple thousand years from now we'll do this all over again.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I just I know I will not.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_03]: If that is Saruman I will legitimately like remember the Ahsoka finale you ain't seen nothing.

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh oh.

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_04]: I spiced a screen on that.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_06]: And then they threw in the pity line.

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_06]: You know yeah and I was like no I loved that line.

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_06]: I did too but it was like they were just layering it on everything so thick right so.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_03]: So I want to talk about the pity line because let's talk about we did about the the scene.

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I love the pity line because pity will not defeat Sauron is so cocky.

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's so antithetical to what becomes the point later right which is pity stayed Bilbo's hand then later stage Frodo's hand.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And allowed Gollum to live long enough to help destroy the one ring.

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Pity opens the way for everyone and for you catastrophe.

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And so I actually really like that because well it does it well it is really on point I get that it also.

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Talking is very on point sometimes like sometimes he just wants to stay to moral and that's fine.

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_03]: And also it's something that I could see a villain saying in that situation right I feel like I feel like they let us there pretty naturally right like.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_03]: With Nori being like yeah I do pity the people who had a knife to my throat and him saying pity will not defeat Sauron you know like basically like dismissing as a weak emotion when that is the emotion that will take Sauron by surprise and lead to his demise in the world.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_04]: And it connects nicely with what we see at the end of this episode.

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah I suppose the the reaction to the line versus what the meaning behind the line is because that it's also kind of a lit it serves as a litmus test for them to figure out that the dark wizard is the dark wizard and not you know that he's gas lighting them.

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Right he's like oh you don't even the way that he says you pity that guy.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_06]: And you're like oh you've got a bad attitude like if you actually had an open heart and had pity you would you know you might talk it through a little bit differently in a little different way but he was just like oh you know these these former kings are trash.

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Well frankly you know we saw a couple of episodes ago that here's a person who is willing to slice the palms of one of his acolytes to somebody I mean you know blood magic is a pretty big flashing sign right there.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_04]: So I was in front of the really good to expect anything.

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah but in front of the stores and the way the stores already knew he was a bad wizard.

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_04]: We don't know how but I mean they were so afraid of him that when Nori and Poppy said oh yeah we've been traveling with this wizard dude it's like a wizard man we're injecting you in the morning.

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Fortunately that didn't take place.

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah so I want to talk too about what's what's his name I wrote in there.

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Geary and Hines.

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_03]: No I want to talk about bronc.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Bronc.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay because I don't think we've seen the last of him.

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_03]: He had a right John.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_04]: I think you're right.

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_03]: No this line my people were once kings.

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I have that on tune.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I think we have not seen the last of him and I can't.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_06]: He's dead though because he hit his head on the back of the thing and then his henchmen ran away.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_06]: He could just be knocked out.

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_06]: No they showed blood on the stick.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Does all blood?

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't buy it.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't buy it David Bronc is alive.

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_03]: He's a deceased in the show guide.

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_04]: And even if he isn't you know he said my people were kings in the plural so he's not the only one.

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_03]: He's not alone yeah.

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_04]: And there may be some future ring material there amongst those particular kings.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's keep our secrets here I didn't load it up then.

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah I didn't do that for you you got to put it in the new clip library John.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I know I know I do.

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that's my backup computer right now because my wife got into a video game where you build a little town and so she's on my gaming PC.

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_03]: That I usually record.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_08]: Priorities.

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_06]: There it is.

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Well Gary Hines was having fun with this role his crazy eyes he was like boy my friend.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_04]: No he was doing it great.

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Just sorry that they had to do all the sardim on cues.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Clearly there and then the way they left it right were big hooks for season three.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_06]: So we we see the constellation in the night sky.

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Wasn't there somebody in the Tolkien academic world who studies the astrology of the Middle Earth and like maps out all the stars and stuff like that.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah yeah that's Christian Anderson.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_04]: That's amazing.

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_04]: If I get the name right.

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_06]: How do you like the you know to draw to pull all that material out of Tolkien's writing and then actually do constellation work.

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Not only did he do that but then that we can drive it out and actually do some work on it is why.

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_04]: She does some wonderful stuff look at her up online and see you'll find some other things.

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Well speaking of which yeah I've I meant to say this a couple of episodes ago I noticed that in the.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Opening scene with with the vibrating dust pieces.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_04]: The constellation the Hermits hat appears on either side of.

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh nice OK alright yeah next time you look at it take a look and see great good pick very nice.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Of course last Star Wars comment I couldn't help but think about you know with the rocks and it's too heavy I can't lift it and you know it's like no size doesn't matter anyway.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Enough Star Wars alright I've got one more though for this episode OK fair enough but before we go to break I want to tell everyone that we are doing a live event.

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Coming up so here's where we're going to promote it David you want to talk a little bit about what we're doing and I'll I'll gonna go find the link while you do that.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_06]: You know what I swear to God I don't know enough to speak to.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I can talk about it OK we'll have a little and do it pitch Marilyn yeah so this is let me pitch it let me pitch it quick.

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Marilyn you want to tell the folks at home what we're doing on this live event.

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes Aaron of Lore of the Rings has invited several podcasters who are podcasting about Tolkien to come together in a live event to talk about the series and to have people live call in and type in or whatever method you want to use to access us.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_04]: So the three of us are going to be there and then there's today from captain's pod yeah and of course Aaron himself and it's gonna be interesting.

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Haven't done one of these before so it'll be me either Aaron's got this whole setup on it's called crowdcast so it's a platform specifically for live podcasting it looks really cool.

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I think the three of us are really excited to do it. It's three bucks to attend. I think we mostly did that out of like a desire to keep out trolls who just want to like hate on the show right right.

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And the proceeds a portion of them will be donated to charity involving orphans I think we're going to do so I don't want to promise that but probably involving orphans since Tolkien and his way for both orphans right.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah you can find that all at rings podcast dot com slash live I'll put that in the show notes as well.

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_03]: All right let's take our quick break.

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Think of a song you really love don't you want to know why you love it so much.

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Well we can't answer that no but we can deep dive into it anyway unless we get to sidetracked where the nevermind the music podcast.

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[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And we're back.

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_03]: All right let's move on to the faithful fleeing.

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Arian I can never say that name right.

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Arian was perfect.

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Arian gathers the faithful for Farisone who gives them quote evidence that Miriel is allied with Sauron.

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_03]: The faithful are declared traitors and arrested.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Arian sneaks away and warns Elendil who finds Miriel and attempts to convince her to flee as the white tree of Numenor sheds leaves.

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Pedals I should say.

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_03]: The queen tells Elendil to leave without her and gives him narsiel before he leaves for the west and his son Anarion.

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Beautiful shot of a tree opening this up the way it was lit up and everything.

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_04]: For a minute I thought it was the tree in Lindon and then I said oh no okay.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Not with that dome behind it or whatever.

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_06]: And then with the petals falling I didn't we see we had petals falling in season one didn't we?

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes we did.

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_03]: We had a very critical moment.

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_03]: My whole line in the second age podcast was follow the trees.

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_03]: All the trees.

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Because the trees signify sort of oneness with Eru, oneness with the Valar, you know being in sync with the will of the holy ones.

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And so each time the white tree starts shedding that's supposed to be a sign that these people are straying from the path.

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And so gathering up all the faithful to imprison them I think is straying from the path a bit wouldn't you say?

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_04]: I think that takes that box yes.

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Now can I just complain about this?

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Get the lines on.

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_03]: What is the evidence?

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_03]: A manila envelope, like go slide a manila envelope across the table and be like she's allied with Sauron.

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Like what was that evidence?

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't understand.

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_03]: They didn't explain it.

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I was tying it back to when Fautazon was looking in the Palin theater and he sees a vision of Halbren.

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Who then it's like he looks around his shoulder and looks back and then there's an image of him in the Palin theater looking straight on.

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_04]: And then the energy goes all blue and jagged the way it usually does.

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_04]: I have no idea what that means.

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if it means anything in particular, but that was the only thing I could think of that would lead Fautazon to put this idea forward whether or not it's true.

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_03]: But so I don't know that he ever knew.

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm with you on that.

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, but I don't know if it is actually even works because when did he ever find out that Halbren is Sauron?

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think the only way you can do that is by saying he learned it from the Palin theater right like that would those were vision.

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Those were sort of snapshots of what he was seeing, but he understood what they meant.

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Sure, I'm on board with that. That's fine.

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_08]: All right. All right.

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_03]: But what are you sliding over to the faithful to be like that this is Sauron?

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like they don't have cameras guys.

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_03]: You can't just like slide over a picture of Halbren and be like here's a picture of Halbren.

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Here's a picture of Sauron.

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_03]: They're the same picture.

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_04]: And where's the picture of Halbren with Muriel?

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_06]: So is this a season three setup?

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Later in the episode is a season three setup.

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Because this is too, but they wrap it up with her in in manacles and sort of at trial.

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_06]: But is this, you know, they didn't do did it get cut or did or did they leave it intentionally a little bit loose so that they can play.

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_06]: They can work it, work on it a little bit more in season three.

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_04]: That's my question.

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_04]: I think they realized that they had a lot of ground to cover in a very short amount of time.

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_04]: So this all feels kind of rushed.

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_04]: But three more seasons.

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Three more seasons.

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I think where we left off is perfectly fine.

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Numanor and Disarray.

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Ellen Deal going to his son and Ariane, you know, we're gonna get a little family reunion.

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I think great.

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's a perfectly fine and Muriel and custody, Farisone and charge.

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_03]: We're in a good spot for Numanor in this part of the potline.

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I think they have plenty of time to get done with any to get done.

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I think that is on was really rattled by the outcome of the sea master trial kind of thing.

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_04]: And so he felt okay, I got to come up with something fast and I don't know that he even cared if anybody really believed you're not.

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, something that I think they're nailing is that Farisone in the books was really ruled by fear.

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah.

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And here we have that.

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_03]: He lashes out when he's more fearful.

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_03]: He's very comfortable collected and he's the one when everything's all happy, happy, right?

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And the minute he feels threatened in his power is when he goes berserk.

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_06]: And we've seen him lashing out at Kemen, his son and yeah, even the scenes of him just he's a little bit more wild eyed.

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_06]: His hair is a little bit more in Kemen.

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_06]: He's a little bit more, yeah, a little bit crazier.

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_06]: So yeah, that's cool.

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I love that later in the episode too, he's like, get my son to another continent please.

[00:50:54] Yeah.

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Go away.

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_04]: But even that scene from last episode, I believe it was immediately after he was handed the scepter and declared ruler of Numanor.

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And Kemen is standing beside him saying, Dad, what's wrong?

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_04]: You've got the scepter.

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_04]: You've got all the power there is.

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Why are you looking off and in a distance and looking at this tower?

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, you can do whatever you want with Numanor now.

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_06]: So if Salron is on the other end of the, you know, is on the network as it were of the Palantiri network.

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_06]: And there are actual companies called Palantiri.

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_06]: There's a company called Palantiri out there, yeah.

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_03]: That feels like a trademark infringement.

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Kind of.

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_06]: Kind of is.

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_06]: But that if Salron's on the network there, what does Salron do?

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_06]: He feeds you what you need.

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Like, you know, what is it that is front and center for you?

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_06]: He satisfies.

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_06]: And so if he, if, if, if Farazone has this, like, oh, you know, like we've, we need control because if we don't have control, then the bad things are going to get us or whatever.

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Like if he's being driven by fear of his, his need for control is driven by fear, what better thing for Salron than to do then is to feed that energy, stoke those fires of his fear through the Palantir?

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_04]: I'd feel a lot better about it all if I had ever seen any evidence that, you know, Salron, Halbrand or Annatar had ever had a Palantir in their hands.

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's true.

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's pretend there's one in Oregon.

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I guess nobody told Kellogg Rimboard about it.

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_03]: It's in the attic, right?

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Like nobody, everybody forgot about it.

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, is that it? Okay.

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I am headcanning this thing to oblivion.

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_06]: Did you guys see a couple of things about Aarion?

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_06]: She was wearing blue again, right?

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Which is they were because they were doing the whole red thing and then she switched back to blue.

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_06]: But then just this is just a little detail thing.

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_06]: The bells, she was playing the bells by pulling levers, which I thought was really interesting as opposed to pulling on cords.

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_06]: And I tried to do some quick internet searching, but I didn't come up with anything.

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_06]: But I loved that tactile sort of lever thing.

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know. That was cool. I'd never seen that before.

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_04]: As a some time bell ringer.

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_06]: I say part time bell ringer.

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Blame to you.

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, please.

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_04]: I've done it for years.

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_04]: My interpretation of that is they're not intended to ring singly.

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_04]: So you can put two on a strut and then, you know, just sort of mechanically have them go back and forth.

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_04]: By pulling the levers up and down.

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_04]: The bells that I think you're thinking over the ones, the single bell on a rope.

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_04]: And you have more control over when it rings and when it doesn't.

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_04]: You have a sally on the rope which tells you how far fire goes and all kinds of stuff.

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_04]: I can't begin to explain.

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead and read The Nine Tailors by Dorothea Sayers.

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_04]: There's a lot in there.

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_03]: So which one is responsible for the Liberty Bell?

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Can we get to the bottom of that?

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Which Liberty Bell are we talking about here?

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Are the United States?

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the crack in it.

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I see.

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_03]: How did that happen?

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Poor smithing probably.

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, hey, that's a topic for your project, John.

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_03]: You got to keep the lid on it for subscribers only on this discussion for now.

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_03]: No, well maybe it's an enticement.

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_04]: It's an enticement for people to say.

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Stay tuned on the off season.

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Did the posting of the decrees give you a little bit of reference?

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Sorry about that.

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_06]: Did the posting of the decrees give you kind of a like a reformationary kind of thing?

[00:54:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Didn't what's his name?

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Martin Luther.

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, Ben has noticed on the door.

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_06]: I just I don't know.

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_06]: I've kind of felt like, you know,

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Felt more persecution like than that.

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think.

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_03]: More fascist than it.

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, more.

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Martin Luther, he's, he's a traitor to western.

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_03]: He's nailing something to the door of authority.

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_03]: He's taking, you know, I'm doing the most charitable read of Martin Luther possible.

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, but you're doing a very good job.

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, he's trying to speak truth to power, right?

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_03]: This is speaking lies to the public.

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_04]: And trying to scare the heck out of everybody.

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just interested to see the little glance that Fathers on gave to it.

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Aearean as she slipped out of the door.

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm afraid there may be trouble brewing there.

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_06]: And then the absence of Kemen is noticeable in retrospect.

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't notice it at the time, but now it's like, oh yeah.

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_06]: He was on the ship.

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_03]: So he pulls Aearean into this thing and she's like at odds with her dad.

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_03]: She has very few friends and then he just nopes out to Pilar Geren doesn't even take her.

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe by this time she just said, no thanks. I'm not going.

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's true.

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_03]: That's true. I got to stay here for my dad.

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, all right. Now I'm going to complain again.

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Narsil.

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_03]: This was a horrendous reveal and I wish Elendil had Narsil.

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I wish he had Narsil already.

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, it's awful.

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Why did she have Narsil?

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_03]: What's the lore behind it?

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_03]: It just felt like it popped out.

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_03]: It looked like they ordered it from the Peter Jackson lore catalog and it just arrived

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_03]: and they just handed it to Elendil in a weird ceremonious fashion where it,

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_03]: to me, it should have been that Narsil earns its legacy by Elendil's deeds,

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_03]: not by Miriel being like this is a legendary sword.

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_03]: We call it Narsil.

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think back to our good friend Aaron from Lore of the Rings.

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_03]: He was saying on a recent podcast, the show is doing a lot of telling instead of showing.

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And I do agree with him on this, on some of the things in this episode were very,

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_03]: very tell-not-show.

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_04]: And the way he took it, the way he looked at it, the way he grasped it,

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_04]: it was a repeat of everything that Aragon did when in the movies,

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Elron brought the reforged Narsil to him.

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Guys, why?

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we do just spoiled it for me because Narsil has its own history.

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_04]: I wanted to see Elendil's reaction.

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_04]: We want to see the he's not Aragorn even if he is his ancestor.

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Let him be Elendil.

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. Let's watch the history of Narsil be written rather than have it be told to us.

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Or have it just be a prelude for another sword.

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_06]: It's been in the background of a couple of shots in this season and last season.

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_03]: And we've all been like, oh, is that Narsil?

[00:58:01] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_03]: They don't know this word.

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's pronounced soup to lay.

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_03]: They don't know how they don't know that word in the writer's room.

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_06]: What's the word?

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Subtle.

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Subtle.

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_06]: That was too subtle for me.

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_06]: There you go.

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_06]: What is, is there lore?

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Like we don't, you don't have to be specific, but is there written lore about Narsil prior to like,

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_06]: prior to Aragorn and the shatter, you know, and the shattering of it and then Aragorn and the reforging of it.

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Is there second age, first age history on Narsil?

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_04]: It was Elendil's sword.

[00:58:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. I'm not aware of anything before this.

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_04]: It was Elendil who made it famous.

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_03]: We're trying to watch this happen, right?

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Like this is, this is exactly like you said, Marilyn.

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Like we are trying to watch history happen rather than like let that play out.

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Don't be like, this already has a deep history.

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_06]: All right. So like, okay, we're going to play writer's room here for a second.

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_06]: She has a ceremony to promote, you know, do something nice for Elendil or whatever.

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_06]: And she bequeaths, hey, this is the finest craftsman of our land have made this sword and I honor you with it.

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_06]: I shall call it the, you know, the, what is it? The white flame?

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Is that the name of the, you know, I shall call it the white flame Narsil and then like, da-da.

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_06]: But instead it was some sort of artifact that was kept in the tower and next to the Palaeontary and everything else.

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it was also, she says, with this sword claim your destiny.

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. Yeah. It's a little on the nose.

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_04]: He has to make his destiny.

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. Okay. Now I didn't mind the claim your lordship piece because that, you know, that's fine.

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_04]: He, in according to this version, he had rejected his lordship.

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_04]: He didn't want to be associated with the West because that was dangerous.

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_04]: His son, Anarion had gone off that way and I'm glad we get a name check on him again.

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_04]: And now she's saying, no, you are a Lord of Andunie, although she doesn't actually say that.

[01:00:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Probably they don't have rights to it.

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_04]: But, you know, reaffirming that yes, he is also descended from Elros and of the royal line.

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_04]: And here is a wonderful sword for you to take and to reenter that part of your life.

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Right.

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And it is what he subsequently does with that sword that makes it so special.

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_03]: She's like, I'm a queen. I got swords. You're a wannabe lord. Let's do the deal.

[01:00:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's do the deal here.

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to, I'm making a note in my wrap up notes here that this is a compressed season issue.

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_04]: I agree with that.

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Interesting.

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_06]: And when we see this all over the place in modern TV, I'll save this for later.

[01:00:47] [SPEAKER_06]: But yeah, was eight the right number?

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_06]: For what, for the amount of content that they were trying to cover?

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_06]: And I would, my, I'm going to assert that eight was not enough.

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Though, of course, given the restrictions that they had, they were not allowed more than eight per season.

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_06]: There you go.

[01:01:05] [SPEAKER_04]: That was part of the part of the original deal.

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I've yet to see a show with eight episodes that felt like it was enough.

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Right. Right.

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_03]: As far as, I will say, as far as like prestige big budget TV, I think you can,

[01:01:20] [SPEAKER_03]: you can say like a comedy show can do eight episodes if it's probably fine.

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_06]: I've seen some British murder mysteries where it's like five or six and then

[01:01:27] [SPEAKER_03]: there's like, there are things that work with eight episodes, but I don't think a story like this can work with eight episodes.

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_03]: It needs to breathe.

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, all's I have to say about all of this is these are not the faithful you are looking for.

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Is that your last one?

[01:01:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that was my last one.

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_06]: And I did not pull the quote.

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_06]: I was going to go, I got a little busy this afternoon, but I was going to try to pull Ben Kenobi.

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Were you just going to, were you just going to like overdub you going,

[01:01:51] [SPEAKER_03]: these are not the faithful you were looking for.

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_03]: That would have been funny.

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_03]: All right, let's go to the destruction of a Reggaon.

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a short scene. The orcs invade our Reggaon and destroy much of its population.

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, Galadriel leads a group of survivors out.

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_03]: They are surrounded by orcs, but Galadriel surrenders herself with the nine rings in exchange for the escape of the others.

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_06]: Something we didn't mention last week, but I saw somebody else mention already heard somebody else mention and then

[01:02:21] [SPEAKER_06]: I saw something again in this one that reminded me was

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_06]: on the attack, they were waiting until there was enough smoke in the sky

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_06]: to dull the lights for the orcs to be able to charge out and we kind of see that again in this episode.

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_06]: So I just wanted to point that out that that was that was a good piece of

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_06]: attention to detail in the in the cinematography or in the story.

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_03]: They've also really exaggerated the effects of sunlight on orcs in the show.

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Like this is not.

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_06]: They sure have.

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_03]: They're not like burning. They're not vampires, right? Like they can go in the sun.

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_03]: They just don't like it.

[01:02:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Right. And I think with enough cloudy, smoky haze like this, it works to that advantage.

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_04]: And then like a little bit of a covering. So I also wanted to say that the scene is to my mind a nice call back to

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Ethril who actually built the escape tunnel in Gondolin.

[01:03:12] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh.

[01:03:12] [SPEAKER_04]: When Gondolin was attacked and overwhelmed, she was able to lead people through this tunnel and out to escape

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_04]: and was confronted by some of the enemy anyway.

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Which sets up an interesting trolley problem for Gladrile there.

[01:03:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Nine rings versus how many elf civilians, you know, the fate of the entire world versus, you know,

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_06]: she could have fought her way out of that herself.

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, she would not have been able to rescue everyone, but instead she chooses to give up the nine instead of...

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, but I actually, I don't know. I think she's a desperate there, but I also think she sort of had a plan of like,

[01:03:54] [SPEAKER_03]: alright, I'm not even going to show him exactly what the nine can do, but let's go get my ring back.

[01:04:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Once I get there, I can try to talk my way out of it.

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Interesting.

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. I don't think it was as straightforward as we're looking at, but I think once she saw Adar,

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_03]: which we'll get to later in his Elvis form, I think her heart changed a bit.

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think you're actually pointing to something that I didn't think about before, which is she is reliant by turning herself in.

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_06]: She is expecting that the Oro is going to act in accordance with the rules and have honor...

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Because Adar.

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Because Adar has honor and is acting within a set of values and principles and rules and what have you,

[01:04:39] [SPEAKER_06]: which is what we kind of talked about with like, is an, you know, an orc is a mentality, not just a race,

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_06]: not specifically a race. And so she's saying, white flag, surrender, take me to your leader,

[01:04:52] [SPEAKER_06]: you know, and because he had made a previous promise.

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_06]: So maybe it's less of a trolley problem in that regard because she doesn't know that Sauron is going to pop up

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_06]: in, you know, five minutes later.

[01:05:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, well, neither does Adar.

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_06]: No, clearly.

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Clearly.

[01:05:08] [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, that is an interesting point, David, that these are still orcs with which you can make deals

[01:05:14] [SPEAKER_04]: and bargains. I hadn't thought about that.

[01:05:16] [SPEAKER_06]: So the, this is a fake one or shot.

[01:05:21] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, one or shot is where there's no cuts in the scene.

[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_06]: The camera is filming the scene from one end to the other.

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_06]: So the mo, but it's a fake one though, but it's really nicely done given it's not a true one or,

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_06]: but there's two big one or chunks in there.

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_06]: The first flaming shot comes, you know, streaking towards the camera and then the orcs come over the wall.

[01:05:46] [SPEAKER_06]: So right there, the camera picks them up.

[01:05:49] [SPEAKER_06]: They've, it follows them to some more orcs coming in the door and then the camera backs up

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_06]: and then that shows an orc archer shooting an arrow up at a guy up on the wall.

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_06]: That's where I think the first cut happens because then the second one or is following the two archers up on the

[01:06:08] [SPEAKER_06]: parapet, whatever thing running around there.

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_06]: And then one guy runs back, slides down the roof and lands.

[01:06:17] [SPEAKER_06]: So at the point where he jumps over, I think is where they do another digital cut.

[01:06:21] [SPEAKER_06]: And then it's a one or again until Galadriel appears escorting the women and children out until they get to the final

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_06]: end of their sequence where they get, we get some more like flaming shot come flying in.

[01:06:36] [SPEAKER_06]: So it was really, I think two real one ors that are then digitally stitched at one moment,

[01:06:44] [SPEAKER_06]: but they're stitched in a way that it looks, it actually even from the beginning to the end,

[01:06:51] [SPEAKER_06]: that all of the sequence, it makes it look all seamlessly one.

[01:06:55] [SPEAKER_06]: So yeah, yeah, it was interesting.

[01:06:58] [SPEAKER_03]: That's very cool. David, I'm going to assign you homework, which is you got to watch the actual one or episode of

[01:07:05] [SPEAKER_03]: It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia where Charlie Day leads you through a health inspection where everybody's getting into nonsense

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_03]: and it really is all one shot.

[01:07:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Very cool stuff. It's like a 25 minute episode with that.

[01:07:17] [SPEAKER_06]: I will, I'm putting it into the searches now to see if I can track it down.

[01:07:23] [SPEAKER_03]: It's on Hulu, I think if you have Hulu.

[01:07:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay. Is it a season one?

[01:07:27] [SPEAKER_03]: No, it's late. It's late.

[01:07:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll find it for you later. Let's get back to Rink of Power.

[01:07:32] [SPEAKER_03]: So let's go deeper into a Reggion for Goodbye, Celebrimbor.

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Saron tortures Celebrimbor by firing arrows into him at non-lethal points and bending the arrows to cause more pain.

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_03]: He tells him he will continue to torture him as those in Gondolin were tortured during its fall

[01:07:52] [SPEAKER_03]: unless Celebrimbor tells him where the nine rings are.

[01:07:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Celebrimbor taunts Saron telling him that he is the prisoner of the rings

[01:08:02] [SPEAKER_03]: and that one ring will destroy him.

[01:08:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Saron takes the bait and kills Celebrimbor before the orcs come in to change allegiances.

[01:08:11] [SPEAKER_06]: You know it's your fault that I'm shooting you with these arrows.

[01:08:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Look what you've made me do.

[01:08:16] [SPEAKER_03]: When he said that, I was like alright a little on the nose on the abusive comparison.

[01:08:21] [SPEAKER_04]: He's been doing it all along.

[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Can we cue the tailor so if your daughter likes tailor shows right David?

[01:08:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:08:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Look what you made me do.

[01:08:30] [SPEAKER_06]: The workshop in Ruins was pretty, some nice shots in there.

[01:08:33] [SPEAKER_06]: The arrows were pretty dramatic.

[01:08:35] [SPEAKER_06]: And pretty brutal though, like what Saron is doing with the arrows, like bending them and stuff.

[01:08:42] [SPEAKER_06]: Man that guy is...

[01:08:42] [SPEAKER_03]: They raised the rating two years this season.

[01:08:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh did they?

[01:08:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it was TV 16 last season and it's TV 18 this season.

[01:08:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Though there was one episode that was TV 14 rated.

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_04]: So it seemed to be going up and down depending on what happened.

[01:08:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. Yeah. So I think we know why they rated the whole season as a whole to be 18 because probably this scene.

[01:09:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:09:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I will confess no, I didn't watch it.

[01:09:09] [SPEAKER_04]: That's alright.

[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I skimmed through both times.

[01:09:11] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm relying on you guys to fill me in on all the good lines.

[01:09:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh gosh no.

[01:09:17] [SPEAKER_04]: No.

[01:09:17] [SPEAKER_04]: You got them so I figured that was fine.

[01:09:20] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a line Marilyn.

[01:09:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to read it to you now.

[01:09:23] [SPEAKER_06]: A couple of lines.

[01:09:28] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a little bit of both in it.

[01:09:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Interesting.

[01:09:30] [SPEAKER_03]: He goes, here are the last words of Lord Kiliborimbor.

[01:09:35] [SPEAKER_04]: What? He says that?

[01:09:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:09:37] [SPEAKER_03]: He says something like that.

[01:09:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And he says, the rings of power shall destroy you and in the end I foresee one alone shall prove your utter ruin.

[01:09:46] [SPEAKER_04]: No he's not wrong there.

[01:09:49] [SPEAKER_06]: Well then what's the next...

[01:09:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Is it the next line or is it a little bit later and he calls Sauron Lord of the Rings?

[01:09:56] [SPEAKER_03]: He does call Sauron Lord of the Rings.

[01:09:58] [SPEAKER_03]: He tells him you're a prisoner of the rings and he's like Sauron Lord of the Rings

[01:10:02] [SPEAKER_03]: and I'm like hey that's the name of the movie.

[01:10:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, that's a thing.

[01:10:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Well they don't really use that word.

[01:10:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Actually Anatar said that Kiliborimbor was the Lord of the Rings.

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I think Kiliborimbor is from what you're saying.

[01:10:15] [SPEAKER_04]: He decided to shove it back into space and say no no no not me.

[01:10:20] [SPEAKER_04]: This is your mess.

[01:10:22] [SPEAKER_03]: That makes sense.

[01:10:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Now that I know that you didn't watch it now I can tell you that you brought up Idril for the first time.

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm from Gondolin in another scene.

[01:10:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Gondolin is explicitly name dropped here.

[01:10:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[01:10:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I saw your mention in the list ahead of time so I thought oh there we go.

[01:10:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah so Gondolin let's go into this quick.

[01:10:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Gondolin was a city in the first age.

[01:10:41] [SPEAKER_03]: It was the greatest city of Elves.

[01:10:43] [SPEAKER_03]: It was supposed to be the closest thing to Tyrion which is Elf,

[01:10:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Calp et al in Valinor right in Atman I should say.

[01:10:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's supposed to be this wonderful wonderful place hidden nobody goes in

[01:10:56] [SPEAKER_03]: nobody goes out it's like Willy Wonka's chocolate factory.

[01:10:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Right and it falls at the end of the first age but there's this whole thing

[01:11:04] [SPEAKER_03]: where Ulmo one of the Valar says listen don't get too attached your city will

[01:11:09] [SPEAKER_03]: eventually fall but I'm going to make sure two things one your city is the

[01:11:13] [SPEAKER_03]: last city that will fall in Elvish Kingdoms in Beleri and second is

[01:11:19] [SPEAKER_03]: that I will send a messenger to tell you you know when it's coming so

[01:11:23] [SPEAKER_03]: that as many of your people can escape as possible.

[01:11:25] [SPEAKER_03]: So Saron here says you know in Gondolin he says I could do this for days

[01:11:30] [SPEAKER_03]: you know in Gondolin it said that it went on and on and on the torturing

[01:11:35] [SPEAKER_03]: and whatnot so pretty brutal and we're going to cover that on Silmarillion

[01:11:39] [SPEAKER_03]: so eventually it's one of the last stories in the Silmarillion.

[01:11:43] [SPEAKER_03]: You're going to do the story I think it's the one just before that right

[01:11:46] [SPEAKER_03]: you're doing Turing Turing Bar and then is it next chapter after that

[01:11:50] [SPEAKER_03]: as tour?

[01:11:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I can't remember.

[01:11:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Alright well anyway it's similar to there towards the end of the Silmarillion.

[01:11:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And brutal, brutal tale and Tolkien Christopher actually eventually

[01:12:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Tolkien's son compiled all the writings about Gondolin and made it into

[01:12:06] [SPEAKER_03]: novel form with the fall of Gondolin which is one of the three great tales

[01:12:10] [SPEAKER_03]: he published post mortem post posthumously.

[01:12:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Well one of the key themes in that whole exchange almost tells

[01:12:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Turgan before he leaves the coast.

[01:12:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Love not too well the work of your own hands and the devices of your heart

[01:12:28] [SPEAKER_04]: and the true hope of the Valar excuse me the true hope of the Noldor lies across the sea.

[01:12:35] [SPEAKER_06]: One of the other lines in this was that I was like oh boy you know they're really salting here

[01:12:40] [SPEAKER_06]: is where he says you know the rings are beyond your reach which wasn't that a

[01:12:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Frodo line or a line that they said you know that oh Frodo is beyond your reach now

[01:12:52] [SPEAKER_06]: or beyond our reach now so it was again just more of that sort of peppering in stuff.

[01:12:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Well that's maybe a little bit of a reach.

[01:13:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah I think Gandalf says something about Frodo is beyond my sight now

[01:13:07] [SPEAKER_06]: maybe use the word reach.

[01:13:09] [SPEAKER_06]: No I thought there was a reach like there.

[01:13:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's a little different to you because of the posturing with people right like Elron who is worried about him

[01:13:15] [SPEAKER_03]: and then you have you know Sarah on Celebrimbo who's saying like you can't catch them now

[01:13:21] [SPEAKER_03]: like you're never gonna find them I think that's a little different.

[01:13:25] [SPEAKER_03]: But I do I did really enjoy the Celebrimbo back in his senses was able to bait

[01:13:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Sarah on into killing him before getting the location of the rings.

[01:13:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.

[01:13:33] [SPEAKER_03]: There was another really good line I didn't write it down but it was you know

[01:13:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Sarah calls himself a craftsman and he goes craft man.

[01:13:42] [SPEAKER_03]: The only thing you craft is what was it David?

[01:13:47] [SPEAKER_06]: I have it I've got it here in my notes.

[01:13:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Your only craft is treachery that's it your only craft is treachery.

[01:13:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Well there's more though.

[01:13:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Your only craft is treachery so pure it can deceive its own maker or something like that.

[01:14:00] [SPEAKER_03]: It was really tasty.

[01:14:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah Celebrimbo had some really good lines and he thought he did.

[01:14:06] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm glad because he certainly deserves them.

[01:14:08] [SPEAKER_03]: If you could stomach closing your eyes and listening to the audio I'd recommend you listen to Charles Edwards performance.

[01:14:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Well I might do that sometime we'll see.

[01:14:17] [SPEAKER_04]: At the very least read it you know read a script I'm sure it will be awesome.

[01:14:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think there's a lot of audio violence I think it's mostly.

[01:14:26] [SPEAKER_03]: So we don't get moans and groans.

[01:14:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I think he just goes like a couple times right because he's trying to be strong he's trying not to look like he's suffering under Sarah on.

[01:14:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[01:14:38] [SPEAKER_04]: So he allowed him to recover his dignity and his lordship and even some far-sightedness.

[01:14:44] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm reminded now of how his grandfather Fanor died and he looked upon the strong hold of Angban and realized that the Noldor were never going to succeed.

[01:14:58] [SPEAKER_04]: And with the eyes of death he foresaw all it was going to happen.

[01:15:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Yet he still had his son swear the oath one more time to their dying father.

[01:15:08] [SPEAKER_04]: So that's that is really the point at which Fanor deserves being in hand also for the rest of his family.

[01:15:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah he's in time out forever.

[01:15:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah but also I like that his grandson here dies in a different way.

[01:15:22] [SPEAKER_03]: In a much different way right.

[01:15:24] [SPEAKER_03]: He's setting the Noldor free of this burden and allowing Sauron to have full responsibility for the rings.

[01:15:31] [SPEAKER_04]: And it also comes back to the thing that I keep saying over and over when people probably tired of hearing me say is what is it that Caleb Brimbo has that Sauron doesn't.

[01:15:40] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm getting a sort of a hint here from what you were saying that at the end of the day he isn't a really fine crafter.

[01:15:49] [SPEAKER_04]: He is not as good as Caleb Brimbo.

[01:15:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Right he doesn't have the patience he doesn't have the will to sacrifice himself right.

[01:15:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Well and his focus is different. His focus is illusion and manipulation rather than genuine crafting.

[01:16:05] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's an interesting interpretation because initially it was in fact Anatar who was teaching things to the Elven Smiths that they hadn't known before but his knowledge only went so far.

[01:16:18] [SPEAKER_04]: And Caleb Brimbo exceeded that and that was why he needed him.

[01:16:23] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's not like Anatar shows up he goes to the Reggion Donut Shop he says you ever thought of making those in gold.

[01:16:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Probably not. Probably not.

[01:16:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Alright alright.

[01:16:34] [SPEAKER_04]: One thing I don't think they had donuts yet.

[01:16:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Two last thoughts one Charles Edwards thank you for your service sir.

[01:16:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you I think that's the last we're going to have of him so incredible performance.

[01:16:46] [SPEAKER_03]: He gets a little moment for a second later in the episode.

[01:16:49] [SPEAKER_06]: Well but you know overall his arc is done here and I think it's what a really great performance I have enjoyed him on screen pretty much the whole time.

[01:17:00] [SPEAKER_04]: He just grew so much between the first sighting of him in season one.

[01:17:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah I think you can tell that he and Charlie Vickers were having fun together as much as they were adversaries I think they had a lot of fun acting.

[01:17:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Gosh I hope they did. I hope they did because they needed some kind of emotional relief from.

[01:17:20] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah for the intensity of the relationship.

[01:17:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I'd watch like I hope someone puts together like a sitcom edit right like Anatar and Caleb Brimbo trying to make the rings and Caleb Brimbo gets distracted by his mouse.

[01:17:34] [SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of like I told David and Alicia about Kevin can F himself the show where it's like changes perspective and one day it's a sitcom then you know somebody leaves the room and it becomes a drama.

[01:17:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like what if we what if we shot this in multi camera and we were really like there are people who do these edits though.

[01:17:53] [SPEAKER_06]: Have you seen the one of Andor if it was like a 70s sort of like air war for 18 kind of thing.

[01:18:02] [SPEAKER_06]: They're brilliant they recuts like that so yeah I think we could definitely order one of those up from the end.

[01:18:09] [SPEAKER_03]: You heard it here folks.

[01:18:12] [SPEAKER_06]: What does Sauron call a glug when he comes in.

[01:18:17] [SPEAKER_06]: He calls him work.

[01:18:21] [SPEAKER_04]: That's interesting.

[01:18:22] [SPEAKER_03]: He takes.

[01:18:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah you missed that Marlon.

[01:18:24] [SPEAKER_03]: It's I'm trying to determine where you came back in.

[01:18:28] [SPEAKER_04]: But I didn't come back in until after we no longer saw us.

[01:18:32] [SPEAKER_04]: And the thought.

[01:18:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Because actually this is Pelinor right.

[01:18:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah so right.

[01:18:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[01:18:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah yeah right.

[01:18:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Now I see where you're going with that at Lord of the Rings they get it.

[01:18:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah but so yeah so Amitarr sorry Marlon but he he kills brutally kill a brim where he shoves him up the wall on his bike and then glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug.

[01:19:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah it's not an oom lout it's the other one it's the little tent.

[01:19:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah but it's also the name for a delightful Swedish drink drink that happens around you all.

[01:19:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Well anyway so glug he comes in and he's like hey Sauron baby Sauron daddy do you want to do you want to give me some orders and and I think I think he comes into contract actually but he's a little bit he's a little bit skeptical about the whole situation.

[01:19:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Like he's he's been growing more resentful of Adar.

[01:19:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah and so he goes up to him and he's basically like ready to arrest him but.

[01:19:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh he and and Sauron goes you know what's your name Rook and then he's kind of disarmed and charmed.

[01:19:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Yep yep yep.

[01:19:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that that's that's a that was a really good way to say like okay all Sauron did was put them in a situation where a lot of them would be dying and then he can just come in.

[01:20:03] [SPEAKER_03]: As the savior right he put them in a tough situation so that he could come in as their savior.

[01:20:10] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah and if he's got he's already in their minds he's already in their spirits he knows sure knows how to manipulate them already he's mapped them all out.

[01:20:19] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like when David makes me save a human hardened conflict with itself.

[01:20:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I know he's Sauron.

[01:20:25] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't even have to say anything anymore and you say it yourself.

[01:20:29] [SPEAKER_03]: The Uruk heart and conflict with itself in this scene.

[01:20:32] [SPEAKER_03]: The port of Pilar Gear is next.

[01:20:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's go on.

[01:20:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Isildur gives a tearful farewell to Theo bonding with him over the loss of their mothers.

[01:20:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Estrid comes in to confess her love for Isildur they kiss and Isildur invites her to Numenor before they can leave.

[01:20:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Kemen arrives to retake the settlement for the Kingsmen.

[01:20:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Isildur tries to resist but Kemen threatens the low men.

[01:20:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Kemen orders the men of Pilar Gear to start felling trees for the royal fleet.

[01:21:03] [SPEAKER_03]: They're just trees.

[01:21:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes they're just trees I got that line too.

[01:21:08] [SPEAKER_04]: And did you see the glance that went between Theo and Hagen and Estrid?

[01:21:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah they're like we're screwed.

[01:21:15] [SPEAKER_04]: No no no they're screwed because of the ants.

[01:21:21] [SPEAKER_04]: The Numenorians are.

[01:21:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah but who's going to be doing the labor?

[01:21:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't think the ants are too into like ask questions before you shoot you know.

[01:21:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I think they're pretty like did you see what's the ant-wife's name again?

[01:21:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Who's wife?

[01:21:38] [SPEAKER_03]: The ant-wife.

[01:21:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Winterbloom was ready to smack everyone down.

[01:21:44] [SPEAKER_03]: You see that she sees somebody with an axe they're dead.

[01:21:47] [SPEAKER_06]: If the low men are able to you know go hey you know these guys are make one us to kill them.

[01:21:53] [SPEAKER_06]: They're cut or you know they need you know they could maybe goad them into action.

[01:21:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Alright so we'll have to have a full season of the ant-moot.

[01:22:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Was is this in sync so for the Numenorians showing up and going you know oh you want food we need wood.

[01:22:11] [SPEAKER_06]: As opposed to oh you guys are hungry here's some food.

[01:22:15] [SPEAKER_06]: I think we've talked about that in the past where when the Numenorians were coming and helping.

[01:22:20] [SPEAKER_06]: At some point they it flipped and then they came and they started exploiting.

[01:22:25] [SPEAKER_06]: So this was a nice proper lore because in the first season they came to help and now they're coming to exploit.

[01:22:33] [SPEAKER_03]: They turned from ambassadors into colonists.

[01:22:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Right which is what they're going to set up a watchtower here and garrison their troops and yeah.

[01:22:42] [SPEAKER_04]: And oh by the way I don't think that it was Kevin threatening the low men that caught the sealed rub shorts so much as threatening this lot of Barrick.

[01:22:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah that's true.

[01:22:56] [SPEAKER_06]: We did a farewell shot to Barrick.

[01:22:59] [SPEAKER_06]: They gave us one shot of Barrick they're framed in the little archway and I was like oh man.

[01:23:05] [SPEAKER_04]: But is he leaving him behind?

[01:23:06] [SPEAKER_06]: I think they said that there was room for the horse.

[01:23:09] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean they thought yeah there are ships.

[01:23:11] [SPEAKER_06]: There ships are.

[01:23:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I know what they're going to do with Barrick and I hate it.

[01:23:17] [SPEAKER_06]: Don't spoil us.

[01:23:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Play your little thing.

[01:23:19] [SPEAKER_03]: No I don't think it's not canon.

[01:23:21] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not canon.

[01:23:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I think I know what they're going to do with Barrick.

[01:23:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Can I take a guess?

[01:23:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Something horrible.

[01:23:28] [SPEAKER_03]: No I think they're going to do something too cutesy.

[01:23:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh what's that?

[01:23:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I think they're going to make Barrick the ancestor of Shadowfax.

[01:23:41] [SPEAKER_06]: To know that or not.

[01:23:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Shadowfax is one of the mayoress.

[01:23:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah Shadowfax is from the...

[01:23:47] [SPEAKER_03]: takes two horses to make another.

[01:23:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah well John we'll see.

[01:23:53] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just saying it's an interesting idea I hope you're wrong.

[01:23:56] [SPEAKER_03]: This show is very into making every connection it can to the range possible.

[01:24:02] [SPEAKER_04]: No you're not wrong.

[01:24:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think they might be placing Barrick in the line of ancestry of Shadowfax.

[01:24:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Well.

[01:24:11] [SPEAKER_03]: If Barrick is going to be stranded in Middler.

[01:24:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think he's done as a character.

[01:24:16] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah they just showed him saying goodbye.

[01:24:20] [SPEAKER_06]: They didn't actually show him getting loaded onto the ship or anything like that.

[01:24:25] [SPEAKER_04]: And I suppose once Kevin offers to slaughter him he's like right I'm out of here.

[01:24:30] [SPEAKER_04]: But he wouldn't do that.

[01:24:31] [SPEAKER_04]: They wouldn't do that.

[01:24:32] [SPEAKER_06]: No Numenorean would do that to a horse.

[01:24:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Isyldor would stay behind.

[01:24:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Well this Numenorean would but...

[01:24:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah but I think Kevin would be in a lot of trouble with the Numenorean soldiery.

[01:24:44] [SPEAKER_04]: With everybody else.

[01:24:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah with his own group.

[01:24:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Can we just get rid of the dude?

[01:24:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Like Kevin...

[01:24:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Well he is definitely showing Caligula vibes.

[01:24:53] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know how much you know about Caligula.

[01:24:54] [SPEAKER_04]: He was the son of a general who eventually became emperor and was like a sort of a figurehead, a symbol for the troops.

[01:25:04] [SPEAKER_04]: And so they called him Caligula which meant little boots because he'd march around in a full grown uniform when he was six years old and he...

[01:25:13] [SPEAKER_03]: They didn't call him Crabligula and then he said I think they'll call me Caligula.

[01:25:23] [SPEAKER_06]: You're stretching tonight John.

[01:25:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm stretching.

[01:25:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm doing a grand elf joke guys.

[01:25:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Completely over my head.

[01:25:29] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't get the claw part.

[01:25:32] [SPEAKER_04]: But he's definitely a little boots bully.

[01:25:35] [SPEAKER_04]: The worst kind just constantly needing to prove his quote unquote strength and you know,

[01:25:40] [SPEAKER_04]: oh your father's a traitor and all slaughter the horse and so on and so on and so on.

[01:25:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And his robes just look pure imperial room too.

[01:25:49] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[01:25:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe they're going for the Byzantine maroc and look but in the case of Kevin they're really jazzing it up.

[01:25:55] [SPEAKER_04]: And yes I see that his arm is in some kind of a sling at this point so clearly he hasn't finished with his PT yet.

[01:26:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Takes a long time with the long process.

[01:26:04] [SPEAKER_04]: That line Theo's advice don't pack a dagger in a bag for a journey my first thought was yeah security will compensate.

[01:26:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Well he did put it in a bag too without a sheaf I think.

[01:26:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah that was a little short sight.

[01:26:18] [SPEAKER_03]: You're going to reach in to grab your tissues.

[01:26:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Owies.

[01:26:21] [SPEAKER_04]: And oh by the way there's loons here in Pallonga as well as in the Great Hades so.

[01:26:28] [SPEAKER_06]: Is loam in...

[01:26:31] [SPEAKER_06]: A low man.

[01:26:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Is there how much lore is around the terminal that term that thing?

[01:26:38] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a show creation.

[01:26:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's just supposed to be derogatory.

[01:26:42] [SPEAKER_06]: Versus a Numenorean right because if there are high...

[01:26:45] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just men and the Numenoreans right like they're there look there are other I'm not going to go deep into this right now but there are other strains of men out there.

[01:26:53] [SPEAKER_06]: Right that's what I was wondering if this was one of those you know.

[01:26:57] [SPEAKER_03]: No this is just vanilla men you know.

[01:26:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay yeah it's just like oh we're not...

[01:27:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Well some of them are dark you know and maybe they just got tired of saying dark was your dark men.

[01:27:07] [SPEAKER_06]: But it's like oh you're from New York City and I'm from you know...

[01:27:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Brooklyn.

[01:27:13] [SPEAKER_03]: No Queens.

[01:27:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh Queens.

[01:27:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Long Island.

[01:27:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Long Island.

[01:27:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway but as a more of a oh we're from a better place than you are kind of thing.

[01:27:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh definitely it's a question of superiority and superiority.

[01:27:30] [SPEAKER_04]: I also privately amused forgive me for indulging here but I felt sorry for Hagen obviously with the whole triangle going on here.

[01:27:41] [SPEAKER_04]: But I also feel sorry for him that he has a name Hagen because this is the name of the son of an evil dwarf and Vagra's good or damn wrong so he's definitely not a nice feature.

[01:27:49] [SPEAKER_04]: But he seems to have started cleaning up really nicely now that he's under the influence of you know the free folk of Palahar and the occasional good Numenorean.

[01:27:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Well and he's half the leader right isn't that what...

[01:28:03] [SPEAKER_04]: He's the leader of the wild men who are becoming less wild and Theo is the leader of the townies.

[01:28:13] [SPEAKER_06]: The townies.

[01:28:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah and they established that when Kevin shows up.

[01:28:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[01:28:19] [SPEAKER_06]: And he's half the leader and Kevin's like whatever.

[01:28:22] [SPEAKER_04]: And I mean why should they expect him to know that anyway right I mean that was a little awkward.

[01:28:27] [SPEAKER_04]: But Kevin didn't get the signal obviously.

[01:28:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly yeah.

[01:28:32] [SPEAKER_06]: They were doing it in a ritual way like oh you're the leader hey I'm the leader here and let's treat now and let's do the formulas.

[01:28:41] [SPEAKER_06]: But Kevin is just like oh we're Numenoreans we're building a garrison.

[01:28:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And if you want to eat you're going to be biggest him.

[01:28:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah you know I gotta say if you want to be taken seriously in diplomacy maybe don't elect Theo.

[01:28:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Right like the guy he doesn't have facial hair yet I think we gotta think about this guys.

[01:28:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh John you just raised a sore point for an awful lot of people who love the lore none of the Numenoreans ever had facial hair.

[01:29:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Well I'm just messing with you.

[01:29:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Because they were descended from dwarves.

[01:29:10] [SPEAKER_03]: But in seriousness.

[01:29:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Excuse me they were descended from elves.

[01:29:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't really understand and I think this was a little sloppy.

[01:29:16] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't really understand how Theo is just the leader.

[01:29:19] [SPEAKER_04]: That was very fast too yeah no I mean they're trying to put him in this position for I think a future role and here's the.

[01:29:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah I think there's a couple roles he could fill.

[01:29:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm leaning towards one let's let's not go there.

[01:29:39] [SPEAKER_06]: No I have my favorite in mind we'll see.

[01:29:42] [SPEAKER_06]: There's two other interesting things that were brought up in this scene though so again you know on the surface the question of things but underneath there's some really cool things.

[01:29:51] [SPEAKER_06]: One was this whole idea of mistaking kindness for love.

[01:29:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes and some things can't be fixed and you just gotta carry them.

[01:30:02] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's when Theo and Sealdor were talking he's like how do you deal with the death of your mom he's like I don't very well.

[01:30:11] [SPEAKER_04]: I thought that was a poorly yeah yes it was I like that they're finally allowing you Sealdor to have some inner reflectiveness and stepping aside from himself and saying yeah I really have not handled this well.

[01:30:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Because we get that later it's the theme echoes back again later towards the end of the episode where you know thing some things that are broken can't be fixed right and you just gotta make do.

[01:30:35] [SPEAKER_03]: But also you know you have you have really conflicting characterizations of Theo right.

[01:30:40] [SPEAKER_03]: You're gonna tell me he's gonna be the leader but he's also the one asking for like pretty basic life advice of how do you deal with grief.

[01:30:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And not that we not that you can't do that as a leader but it just feels like he's not at the place where he can effectively lead a group of people and be the one people go to for their advice.

[01:30:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Well the standout that he has is he's a healer.

[01:31:01] [SPEAKER_04]: He has incredibly valuable knowledge and it takes a certain amount of maturity to be able to carry that out effectively I think I think he is also the son of Bronwyn and they even say that yeah right yeah.

[01:31:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's a little Bronwyn.

[01:31:14] [SPEAKER_04]: And she clearly had status.

[01:31:16] [SPEAKER_06]: Yep.

[01:31:17] [SPEAKER_04]: And oh by the way she was partnered for a brief time with a Rondir who is no longer there but still there is that kind of suggestion of okay these are not your run-of-the-mill wild people.

[01:31:28] [SPEAKER_06]: And in their temporary or even Southlanders.

[01:31:30] [SPEAKER_06]: In their temporary confinement under the tree ants he got close to I forget the other guy's name the Hagen.

[01:31:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Hagen.

[01:31:40] [SPEAKER_06]: Good point.

[01:31:42] [SPEAKER_06]: And so they learned you know something and then I think Theo has demonstrated some bravery right and courage.

[01:31:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh yeah for sure.

[01:31:49] [SPEAKER_06]: In a number of situations so yeah maybe he's emotionally still growing to do but.

[01:31:56] [SPEAKER_04]: That's probably true of most of the wild men if we're honest.

[01:31:59] [SPEAKER_03]: He's a model UN champion so you gotta give him the leadership.

[01:32:04] [SPEAKER_06]: But yeah I do agree I think they're setting him up for a future thing.

[01:32:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Also are the people of Hilargir just listening to a Rondir on everything like does he have the power to.

[01:32:14] [SPEAKER_06]: A Rondir's gone.

[01:32:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I know I'm saying the fact that he appointed Theo there right like he basically appointed Theo.

[01:32:22] [SPEAKER_03]: That's good point.

[01:32:22] [SPEAKER_03]: The leader of Hilargir on who is authority right.

[01:32:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Strange elves pulling swords out of him.

[01:32:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Strange creatures.

[01:32:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not sure if that was supposed to be taken as official statement.

[01:32:33] [SPEAKER_04]: I think he was telling Theo.

[01:32:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Just be a man.

[01:32:38] [SPEAKER_03]: They will follow you.

[01:32:40] [SPEAKER_03]: But why have we seen any qualities of leadership from him.

[01:32:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Because the writers want him to be outlined them.

[01:32:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Again I just don't I get this is something where I think the show has done this a few times and I feel like I'm being negative tonight and I really hate that I'm being.

[01:32:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah yeah we are being a little weird but what I substantive critique of this show I think is that sometimes they earn it but sometimes they don't and sometimes they just.

[01:33:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Claim the victory lap without earning it.

[01:33:10] [SPEAKER_08]: Sure.

[01:33:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think they did that with Theo here.

[01:33:13] [SPEAKER_04]: It could be.

[01:33:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Alright well let's go on.

[01:33:18] [SPEAKER_04]: I still think you're undervaluing healers.

[01:33:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Well listen I played World of Warcraft for a while and let me tell you something I was a healer nobody's asking the healer to leave the dungeon right like that the healer needs to the healer is very busy you have a lot of things to do you can't be worried about what direction to go in so.

[01:33:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Well.

[01:33:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And David speak up on the D&D side is the leader leading the is the healer leading the party.

[01:33:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Generally not it's not in the front well tank.

[01:33:47] [SPEAKER_04]: But Pilar Geary is not looking for conflict it is not a battle society it is not trying to go on quests or kill or share.

[01:33:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Let me mix my metaphors Marilyn.

[01:34:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Mix away John just don't put too much salt in.

[01:34:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Alright last scene before we take a break the doom of Adar.

[01:34:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Galadriel is brought to Adar who has been restored to pure elvish form by Nenya.

[01:34:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Adar gives Nenya back to Galadriel and they agree to destroy Sauron together.

[01:34:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Adar says he will take his children back to Mordor and forgives Galadriel for killing so many Uruks.

[01:34:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Adar returns to his orc form and his orcs return to him carrying the wounded right hand of Adar Glug.

[01:34:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Glug I can't get it right.

[01:34:36] [SPEAKER_03]: They drop the act and stab Adar to death and Sauron appears to claim Morgoth's crown.

[01:34:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Sauron orders the orcs to raise a Region.

[01:34:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Galadriel then attacks Sauron but he blocks the blow with Morgoth's crown and demands Nenya and the nine rings.

[01:34:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I did not see this coming and I thought it was fat.

[01:34:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh really? I thought Glug was going to work on it the whole time.

[01:35:03] [SPEAKER_04]: No, no not the Glug part that I saw a long time ago.

[01:35:05] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm talking about Nenya healing Adar.

[01:35:08] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah that was cool.

[01:35:11] [SPEAKER_04]: That was extraordinary and the grief I felt about what could have been was they just you know all of them hit all the right notes.

[01:35:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's make a lasting peace.

[01:35:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Adar was the name I earned, help me get it back.

[01:35:27] [SPEAKER_04]: I forgive you for slaughtering my children.

[01:35:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Let this ring create a lasting peace.

[01:35:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I wanted it to be true but they were filming it at the Dutch camera angle again.

[01:35:39] [SPEAKER_04]: And so that said to me, not necessarily don't trust that Adar but it's not going to work.

[01:35:48] [SPEAKER_04]: And of course, I knew it wasn't going to work anyway because it's you know, he's got to get out sometime because Sauron is going to take over the show.

[01:35:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Just on this point of Adar and Galadriel and Nenya before the sort of Etou Brute, Etou Glug scene happened.

[01:36:13] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a worm tongue rip right? Like I think it is.

[01:36:17] [SPEAKER_06]: How so?

[01:36:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Worm tongue is the one who kills Saruman.

[01:36:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Right but I was doing the Etou Brute which is goes back to Julius Caesar.

[01:36:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry.

[01:36:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying to say that this is a Jacksonian rip off here.

[01:36:28] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, I see what you're doing.

[01:36:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Go back to your Brutus.

[01:36:32] [SPEAKER_06]: No, I was going to get back to Adar because he takes off the ring and the effect fades slowly.

[01:36:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I didn't notice that.

[01:36:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, totally does.

[01:36:44] [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't know I believed you.

[01:36:45] [SPEAKER_06]: And so then I was wondering, well, so what's the mechanic of the ring here?

[01:36:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Was he only wearing it temporarily and so like is his heart so deep that it would take years and years and years to actually know fix what's underneath on the surface superficially he can return himself.

[01:37:08] [SPEAKER_06]: So maybe if it weren't longer.

[01:37:09] [SPEAKER_06]: But then I thought it was also interesting that the whole thing with the name because we've got this stranger over here looking for his name and here we've got Adar who's like, I don't need that name no more.

[01:37:21] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I'm that person is long gone and I'm fine with Adar.

[01:37:25] [SPEAKER_04]: And you can't even remember it anymore.

[01:37:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Is that what do you think he can't remember it?

[01:37:29] [SPEAKER_04]: He said I can't remember my original name and it was a meaningless name anyway.

[01:37:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[01:37:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Adar was the name I earned.

[01:37:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[01:37:38] [SPEAKER_06]: And then this idea with the ring we can heal and we, you know, and I will I am with honor.

[01:37:45] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to give you like when he gave the ring back, I was like, wow, wow.

[01:37:50] [SPEAKER_04]: That more than anything else convinced me that this was real in his part.

[01:37:53] [SPEAKER_04]: So he's got to die.

[01:37:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I knew he was going to have to die just anyway because Sauron.

[01:37:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because we have to have the Lord of the Rings.

[01:38:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:38:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And you know, I think it makes sense for his orc form to come back.

[01:38:06] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we know from the Lord of the Rings, which again, our spoiler policy is the Lord of the Rings is fair game that when the ring, when the rings lose their power because the one ring was destroyed, the elvish lands begin to fade again.

[01:38:17] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[01:38:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And so and the speeding, the fading has been hastened by this loss of the rings.

[01:38:23] [SPEAKER_03]: So it makes sense to me that Adar was beginning to be healed.

[01:38:28] [SPEAKER_03]: But the minute you take the ring away, he stops healing as much.

[01:38:32] [SPEAKER_04]: And if he could have worn it for a hundred years or whatever, then maybe it might have been complete healing.

[01:38:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Or living within a sanctuary that was created and that had healingness to it.

[01:38:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Sure.

[01:38:43] [SPEAKER_06]: What was he praying?

[01:38:45] [SPEAKER_06]: Was he praying?

[01:38:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Was he, what was he was in sort of a repose?

[01:38:48] [SPEAKER_06]: There were some glyphs on that or some room or some decorations on that rock.

[01:38:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Celtic designs.

[01:38:56] [SPEAKER_04]: I think we were supposed to think of it as a sort of a henge or...

[01:39:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, there's definitely a stone hinge on the they jump down later when they're fighting.

[01:39:03] [SPEAKER_06]: Right, right, right.

[01:39:05] [SPEAKER_06]: But it just seemed interesting.

[01:39:06] [SPEAKER_06]: And I didn't know if they were just doing it for the drama where he can stand up and reveal himself.

[01:39:13] [SPEAKER_06]: But he was definitely sort of in a...

[01:39:15] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:39:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, they had to have some reason why he wasn't facing them right away.

[01:39:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Although he could have just been looking out in the distance as far as that goes.

[01:39:23] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know. I wondered about that too.

[01:39:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:39:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe there's a certain amount of not outright pain and then, you know, struggle or energy going out.

[01:39:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Sure. When you're healing, sometimes your energies are going into the healing.

[01:39:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that makes sense.

[01:39:42] [SPEAKER_06]: So, Adar got done like he did Sauron.

[01:39:46] [SPEAKER_06]: So there's a little turnabout here.

[01:39:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it's a mirroring, you know.

[01:39:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:39:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Straight simple mirroring, for sure.

[01:39:53] [SPEAKER_06]: I have a question though.

[01:39:57] [SPEAKER_06]: So Adar's...

[01:39:58] [SPEAKER_06]: I always get them confused.

[01:40:00] [SPEAKER_06]: I forget which one is it.

[01:40:01] [SPEAKER_06]: The fro is the body.

[01:40:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Which is the one that you expend.

[01:40:06] [SPEAKER_03]: The fea is the spirit which is immortal and does not fade.

[01:40:10] [SPEAKER_06]: So Adar's fea is going to the Halls of Mandoes.

[01:40:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Yep.

[01:40:17] [SPEAKER_06]: But if Sauron were actually ever killed, where would he go?

[01:40:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Is he serially longjivel?

[01:40:28] [SPEAKER_06]: He is.

[01:40:28] [SPEAKER_06]: He's a Maya.

[01:40:30] [SPEAKER_03]: He is.

[01:40:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, if his body were killed as we saw...

[01:40:34] [SPEAKER_06]: It turned to slime and...

[01:40:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, his fea was still there.

[01:40:38] [SPEAKER_03]: His spirit was still there.

[01:40:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[01:40:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And so he had a choice there.

[01:40:44] [SPEAKER_03]: He could either spend a long time reconstituting his body,

[01:40:47] [SPEAKER_03]: or he could go back to Valinor and beg them for a new remit.

[01:40:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.

[01:40:51] [SPEAKER_06]: So he'd go back to Valinor.

[01:40:54] [SPEAKER_03]: He could.

[01:40:54] [SPEAKER_03]: It would be optional.

[01:40:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Again, Lord of the Rings' spoiler here.

[01:40:59] [SPEAKER_04]: At the very end, he becomes a figure of smoke and mist and whatever.

[01:41:04] [SPEAKER_04]: He's literally blown away.

[01:41:07] [SPEAKER_04]: So the implication is...

[01:41:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Having lost so much of his native power and so on and so on,

[01:41:15] [SPEAKER_04]: he can't hold it together anymore.

[01:41:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:41:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Gandalf talks about...

[01:41:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Each time his body is destroyed and has to be rebuilt,

[01:41:24] [SPEAKER_04]: he loses some strength and he becomes more evil

[01:41:27] [SPEAKER_04]: and can't take on the fair form anymore, etc., etc.

[01:41:30] [SPEAKER_04]: As it goes along.

[01:41:31] [SPEAKER_04]: So in the end, Gandalf says he'll just become a spirit,

[01:41:35] [SPEAKER_04]: gnawing himself in the illustration or whatever.

[01:41:38] [SPEAKER_04]: But he will never be able to reform him

[01:41:40] [SPEAKER_04]: and he will never be able to really have

[01:41:43] [SPEAKER_04]: power over anything or anyone.

[01:41:45] [SPEAKER_04]: So not dissimilar to what happens to Salomon,

[01:41:47] [SPEAKER_04]: who incidentally is also a Maiar.

[01:41:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:41:51] [SPEAKER_03]: But also a Maiar with more limitations, right?

[01:41:54] [SPEAKER_03]: It's interesting.

[01:41:55] [SPEAKER_03]: We had an interesting question from Cyrus on the Discord day of

[01:41:59] [SPEAKER_03]: did the Valar create the Maiar?

[01:42:01] [SPEAKER_03]: And the answer is...

[01:42:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Sorry, it did create the Astari.

[01:42:04] [SPEAKER_03]: That was the question.

[01:42:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And the answer is no,

[01:42:10] [SPEAKER_03]: but the Valar did place the limitations upon them,

[01:42:13] [SPEAKER_03]: that they go to Midorah with.

[01:42:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And so that's sort of the interesting twist with them.

[01:42:17] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think it makes it confusing because

[01:42:20] [SPEAKER_04]: they were in human bodies.

[01:42:25] [SPEAKER_04]: They weren't in Valar or Maiar arrangement

[01:42:28] [SPEAKER_04]: that they could put on and take off and so forth.

[01:42:30] [SPEAKER_04]: So the bodies could age, they could suffer pain,

[01:42:33] [SPEAKER_04]: they suffered hunger and so on and so on.

[01:42:36] [SPEAKER_04]: And that was an experience that I don't think any Maiar had ever had

[01:42:40] [SPEAKER_04]: before.

[01:42:40] [SPEAKER_06]: So we lose Hazeldyne for,

[01:42:45] [SPEAKER_06]: he came in for one season.

[01:42:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, well, he did a fabulous job.

[01:42:48] [SPEAKER_06]: They bumped off like a couple of big characters in this episode.

[01:42:51] [SPEAKER_06]: So if you think about it now.

[01:42:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:42:55] [SPEAKER_03]: So we got a bunch of other things to worry about.

[01:42:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:43:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Big costume change for the big S here for Salon.

[01:43:06] [SPEAKER_04]: His outfits throughout this season were really...

[01:43:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Shifting.

[01:43:11] [SPEAKER_03]: We are going to be on the cover of Variety in Nintendo.

[01:43:15] Exactly.

[01:43:16] [SPEAKER_06]: I will say though, big Tulsa Doom energy on his outfit.

[01:43:20] [SPEAKER_06]: And if you know that reference, you'll get it.

[01:43:23] [SPEAKER_06]: But his costume made me think of another fantasy character

[01:43:27] [SPEAKER_06]: on movies.

[01:43:31] [SPEAKER_06]: James Earl Jones as Tulsa Doom and Conan the Barbarian.

[01:43:38] [SPEAKER_06]: These sort of sneaky things, this sneaky motif.

[01:43:41] [SPEAKER_06]: So anyway.

[01:43:42] [SPEAKER_04]: What do you guys think of the exchange between Galadriel and Salon?

[01:43:46] [SPEAKER_04]: All this was by your design and Salon says,

[01:43:50] [SPEAKER_04]: you think too much of me.

[01:43:52] [SPEAKER_06]: What did he say? The road is ever winding?

[01:43:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he was doing poetry.

[01:43:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank God he didn't say the road goes ever on and on.

[01:44:01] [SPEAKER_04]: I really want to smack something in my head.

[01:44:03] [SPEAKER_03]: All right, but Merrill, we can agree that this was an attempt to invoke that, right?

[01:44:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it was.

[01:44:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I can't imagine what else it was, John.

[01:44:12] [SPEAKER_03]: So, I mean...

[01:44:14] [SPEAKER_04]: But setting that aside, just the initial statement and response.

[01:44:20] [SPEAKER_04]: This was all by your design, you think too much of.

[01:44:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, what are you driving at?

[01:44:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Are you just caught you or...?

[01:44:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we start off thinking about Salon as being the big bad

[01:44:35] [SPEAKER_04]: guy having so much power that eventually he can control everything

[01:44:38] [SPEAKER_04]: and he certainly wants you to think about that.

[01:44:40] [SPEAKER_04]: But there does, they do seem to be pointing to some ability to resist.

[01:44:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Particularly if you know what's going on.

[01:44:47] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that always helps, right?

[01:44:50] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think a lot of his skill lies not in being the grand architect of design

[01:44:55] [SPEAKER_04]: but in being an improviser.

[01:44:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Not unlike Morgoth, if you think about it.

[01:45:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Because it was Morgoth improvising on the original theme

[01:45:05] [SPEAKER_04]: and then eventually breaking up altogether and starting his own stuff.

[01:45:10] [SPEAKER_04]: So, a lot of people say this about Salon throughout.

[01:45:14] [SPEAKER_04]: This is his plan all along.

[01:45:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Galadadal was screaming at Adar when he decided to take all the orcs off and so forth.

[01:45:21] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know how much foresight does he have?

[01:45:24] [SPEAKER_04]: How much did this...

[01:45:26] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think he foresaw the dwarves coming in.

[01:45:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Clearly not.

[01:45:31] [SPEAKER_04]: For instance, although he was very angry with the increasing closeness

[01:45:36] [SPEAKER_04]: that was developing between Kiloborne and Borda of the Dwarves,

[01:45:39] [SPEAKER_04]: that was not his plan.

[01:45:40] [SPEAKER_04]: He wanted all the peoples of Middle Earth to be separated out.

[01:45:45] [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm not sure that he had a master plan all along that said

[01:45:48] [SPEAKER_04]: okay, I know you're going to do this and therefore I'll do this

[01:45:50] [SPEAKER_04]: and then you're going to do that and I'll do this

[01:45:53] [SPEAKER_04]: because that doesn't allow for free will.

[01:45:55] [SPEAKER_04]: And it assumes that people are too predictable that way.

[01:46:00] [SPEAKER_04]: But Salon saying you think too much of...

[01:46:05] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, a lot of it was in the way Vickers delivered the line.

[01:46:09] [SPEAKER_04]: You could interpret it so many ways.

[01:46:11] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, aw, shucks.

[01:46:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I think the false modesty of a narcissist to pull you in.

[01:46:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, okay.

[01:46:18] [SPEAKER_04]: That was pretty much what I was thinking here.

[01:46:23] [SPEAKER_04]: But at the same time, maybe she is thinking too much of him.

[01:46:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe that is part of Salon's power.

[01:46:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Is that he gets you thinking?

[01:46:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Whatever I choose, it's going to be the wrong choice

[01:46:33] [SPEAKER_04]: because he's already plotted it out five moves ahead.

[01:46:35] [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of people talked about Salon playing chess

[01:46:38] [SPEAKER_04]: and thinking five moves ahead and anticipating that this would be the response

[01:46:42] [SPEAKER_04]: and so on. Yeah, he does a lot of that.

[01:46:44] [SPEAKER_04]: But there still is this possibility of, you know,

[01:46:49] [SPEAKER_04]: the unexpected thing happening which of course is free will.

[01:46:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Free will. It's also you catastrophe, which we'll be talking about.

[01:46:56] [SPEAKER_06]: And Herbert deals a lot with that in Dune,

[01:47:00] [SPEAKER_06]: but one of the big underlying engines of Dune is

[01:47:04] [SPEAKER_06]: when we are, when things are easy and we're complacent

[01:47:08] [SPEAKER_06]: and we just know the next thing to do,

[01:47:10] [SPEAKER_06]: the next thing to do, the next thing to do,

[01:47:12] [SPEAKER_06]: then we actually start to diminish our potential

[01:47:16] [SPEAKER_06]: and that actually will lead us into a genetic ruin as it were.

[01:47:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Interesting.

[01:47:23] [SPEAKER_04]: We're talking it was you're going to lead yourself into a downfall

[01:47:28] [SPEAKER_06]: if everything is too easy.

[01:47:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Right. And foundation and Asimov do the same thing.

[01:47:31] [SPEAKER_06]: And of course, Herbert is building off of Asimov in that regard.

[01:47:35] [SPEAKER_06]: And so the idea that Herbert was pushing forward was

[01:47:37] [SPEAKER_06]: we need to be on the edge of uncertainty

[01:47:41] [SPEAKER_06]: because as a species, that is what activates our creativity

[01:47:46] [SPEAKER_06]: or empathy or emotions.

[01:47:48] [SPEAKER_06]: It actually push it.

[01:47:49] [SPEAKER_06]: We then stretch further out

[01:47:51] [SPEAKER_06]: and that's the only way that we're going to survive

[01:47:54] [SPEAKER_06]: on a genetic level is if we're constantly on that edge.

[01:47:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:47:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, one more question.

[01:48:01] [SPEAKER_04]: How are you supposed to have a sword fight with an archangel?

[01:48:04] [SPEAKER_04]: In this case, an angel.

[01:48:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Particularly when he has this mega crown of death and evil.

[01:48:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, we did the fight.

[01:48:13] [SPEAKER_03]: It is, I think it has to be someone like Galadriel, right?

[01:48:17] [SPEAKER_03]: It has to be someone who is one of the older elves

[01:48:20] [SPEAKER_03]: who saw the, you know, a Calakwendi who saw the light of the trees

[01:48:24] [SPEAKER_03]: lived through the first age because we do know there were elves

[01:48:27] [SPEAKER_03]: in the first age who went to a tour with Sarah, right?

[01:48:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Luthien is the name one.

[01:48:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Finraud is another, you know, Galadriel's brother.

[01:48:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And so I think it's fine that she goes toe to toe with him

[01:48:39] [SPEAKER_03]: and loses.

[01:48:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that that makes sense to me.

[01:48:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, and I suppose it could give her that final wisdom

[01:48:45] [SPEAKER_04]: to say, all right, Caleb Rambo was right.

[01:48:48] [SPEAKER_04]: We're not going to do this by power.

[01:48:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Caleb Rambo was right is not expected to hear this episode.

[01:48:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Seriously. Seriously.

[01:48:55] [SPEAKER_04]: But there you are.

[01:48:56] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that's, you know, great suffering brings about great insight.

[01:49:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Just curious, Jen, are we in terms of scene organization?

[01:49:04] [SPEAKER_06]: Are we going to talk about the final scene between these two

[01:49:06] [SPEAKER_06]: a little bit later on in linear order?

[01:49:08] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know if we're going to smoosh them together.

[01:49:10] [SPEAKER_06]: But I think you wanted to move us to a break real quick.

[01:49:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but I just wanted to final point here.

[01:49:16] [SPEAKER_04]: It felt too much like the required boss battle of a video game.

[01:49:21] [SPEAKER_04]: It did.

[01:49:22] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not going to.

[01:49:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Because we already had a confrontation at the end of season one.

[01:49:27] [SPEAKER_04]: And it was brilliant and it was mind games and that's what

[01:49:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Sauron does.

[01:49:32] [SPEAKER_04]: So now we have to have the physical confrontation.

[01:49:35] [SPEAKER_06]: I did, I will say that it did go on a little bit longer than I,

[01:49:39] [SPEAKER_06]: you know, it would have been quicker, I think you're right.

[01:49:42] [SPEAKER_06]: So even for a skilled.

[01:49:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I would totally be the licensed video game of this.

[01:49:45] [SPEAKER_03]: That sounds really fun.

[01:49:48] [SPEAKER_06]: I will say Clark had a great look on her face though

[01:49:52] [SPEAKER_06]: and she shows up and she's just petrified.

[01:49:54] [SPEAKER_06]: And you can feel the fear around her heart and she's trying to

[01:49:58] [SPEAKER_06]: control her emotions because her user just showed up.

[01:50:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Right, she does it.

[01:50:03] [SPEAKER_06]: He broke the restraining order and he's, you know, he's there, right?

[01:50:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, seriously, seriously.

[01:50:09] [SPEAKER_03]: She really brought the mighty Morphid out of that colloquial.

[01:50:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:50:13] [SPEAKER_04]: And yet at the final, at the end of it all,

[01:50:16] [SPEAKER_04]: she was able to say the door is shut.

[01:50:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think she needed to know that she could do that.

[01:50:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, yes. Right.

[01:50:24] [SPEAKER_06]: To reclaim herself and reclaim her agency of that. Yeah.

[01:50:28] [SPEAKER_04]: And so in that regard, I thought it was,

[01:50:30] [SPEAKER_04]: it was good to have a final competition.

[01:50:33] [SPEAKER_04]: I just don't know why it had to be, you know, swords and crowns and,

[01:50:37] [SPEAKER_06]: you know, jumping around Stonehenge and having,

[01:50:40] [SPEAKER_06]: you know, big rocks fall down and stuff like that.

[01:50:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. And again, I think it goes to this thing is that they're

[01:50:46] [SPEAKER_06]: amping it up and they didn't need to amp it up because the drama is inherent

[01:50:51] [SPEAKER_06]: in their relationship.

[01:50:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. It should be. Yes.

[01:50:54] [SPEAKER_04]: And they showed that beautifully at the end of the season.

[01:50:56] [SPEAKER_06]: You don't need to push it further than it needs to be pushed.

[01:50:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. Yeah.

[01:51:00] [SPEAKER_03]: All right. Well, let's take a quick break.

[01:51:03] [SPEAKER_03]: When we get back, we will finish up the episode.

[01:51:19] [SPEAKER_03]: All right. And we're back.

[01:51:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And we definitely didn't just take a 24 hour break because this

[01:51:29] [SPEAKER_03]: podcast was getting two hours long already.

[01:51:32] [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, no. Of course not. Why would we do that?

[01:51:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, and I just had a brainstorm.

[01:51:36] [SPEAKER_06]: I really lies. A 24 hour brainstorm.

[01:51:40] [SPEAKER_04]: No, it didn't take quite that long.

[01:51:41] [SPEAKER_04]: The astronomer's name is actually Christine Larson.

[01:51:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay. L-A-R-S-E-N.

[01:51:47] [SPEAKER_04]: And she's, I'm sure she's got a lot of stuff out there on the web.

[01:51:50] [SPEAKER_04]: And anytime I have seen her speak, heard her speak or read any of her stuff,

[01:51:55] [SPEAKER_04]: it's been fantastic. So by all means, check her out.

[01:51:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Very cool. I think two last night, I noticed that a lot,

[01:52:03] [SPEAKER_06]: we were very critical heavy and less, I don't know,

[01:52:08] [SPEAKER_06]: we were a little bit hard on the show yesterday, I think.

[01:52:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, also the second half of the episode, I did like a lot better.

[01:52:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Like it did flow better for me.

[01:52:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought that the clunkier parts generally fell apart except,

[01:52:22] [SPEAKER_03]: sorry, fell away except to the grand aisle thing, which still not.

[01:52:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. But we don't have to talk about that all night.

[01:52:28] [SPEAKER_03]: But my point is I did really enjoy all these sequences.

[01:52:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I know that we were talking about like maybe it feels like a boss battle,

[01:52:35] [SPEAKER_03]: this whole like battle between Galadriel and,

[01:52:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm saying things weird tonight, Galadriel and Sauron.

[01:52:41] [SPEAKER_03]: But honestly, I liked it. I liked it a lot.

[01:52:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And I thought it was a really great way for her to sort of close out that arc.

[01:52:48] [SPEAKER_03]: It did feel to me like it was an incomplete arc at the end of season one

[01:52:51] [SPEAKER_03]: because she has, it feels like she has to lie about it to the other eyes.

[01:52:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. Right. And there is a sense in which she does come to a point of completion.

[01:52:59] [SPEAKER_04]: The door is shut. So, you know, if that's how you're going to do it,

[01:53:03] [SPEAKER_04]: that's how you're going to do it.

[01:53:04] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think yesterday did, I forget who said, I think Marilyn, maybe you had said it.

[01:53:08] [SPEAKER_06]: Like the fact that she knows herself to have accomplished the door shutting exercise.

[01:53:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Right. That she has regained her agency and that is a huge step for her in her arc overall.

[01:53:21] [SPEAKER_06]: It is. It is.

[01:53:22] [SPEAKER_06]: I know that she can actually refuse and step away from somebody who is so under,

[01:53:29] [SPEAKER_06]: whose enchantment she was so strongly, which then makes an interesting set up

[01:53:34] [SPEAKER_06]: for Lord of the Rings Jackson movie when she, when Frodo gives her the ring

[01:53:38] [SPEAKER_06]: and she's able to refuse it because she knows she has that strength within her.

[01:53:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, and in the text, she actually does say, you know, he seeks ever just,

[01:53:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I know much of his mind and all of his mind concerning the elves.

[01:53:52] [SPEAKER_04]: And he seeks to know my mind ever, but the door is shut.

[01:53:57] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, that's a great line. Yeah.

[01:53:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, you know, that guy Tolkien wasn't a bad writer.

[01:54:01] [SPEAKER_04]: He had his good days, didn't he?

[01:54:04] [SPEAKER_03]: He did. He did.

[01:54:06] [SPEAKER_03]: As he attended the children, he was in his study practicing.

[01:54:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. So why don't we get into the scene that we're kind of already talking about a little bit?

[01:54:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. I called it two battles as the elves forces start to falter.

[01:54:19] [SPEAKER_03]: The dwarves of Khazadum arrive to turn the tide.

[01:54:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Galadriel and Sauron battle, soared to crown as Sauron transforms into a managed form

[01:54:28] [SPEAKER_03]: and then a mirror of Galadriel.

[01:54:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't put in, but also a killibrim borer form, a killibrim form.

[01:54:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Sauron mortally stabs Galadriel with his crown,

[01:54:39] [SPEAKER_03]: declaring his former loyalty to her as she resists him.

[01:54:42] [SPEAKER_03]: He takes the nine rings and tries to compel Galadriel to hand over Nenya

[01:54:47] [SPEAKER_03]: after she can feigns compulsion.

[01:54:49] [SPEAKER_03]: She jumps off a cliff with the ring.

[01:54:53] [SPEAKER_03]: The orcs arrive and beg Sauron to retreat, but he kills Glug.

[01:54:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Glug.

[01:54:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Glug, pour one out for Glug.

[01:55:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[01:55:02] [SPEAKER_03]: I got to add him to the show guy just to take him away.

[01:55:05] [SPEAKER_04]: We can have some interesting Glug, Glug, Glug pour one out.

[01:55:10] [SPEAKER_03]: If we want to go there.

[01:55:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I just did want to pour one out for Damrod.

[01:55:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Did you hear I made that the cold open on our last episode?

[01:55:18] [SPEAKER_03]: I think so.

[01:55:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I remember.

[01:55:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Can we pour one out for Damrod?

[01:55:21] [SPEAKER_04]: I remember.

[01:55:23] [SPEAKER_04]: That managed form that Sauron took I think was sort of an edited hellbrand.

[01:55:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I saw almost a Numenorean hellbrand.

[01:55:31] [SPEAKER_04]: What I saw was it looked like hellbrand, but the hairstyle was that of Elfrand.

[01:55:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Hmm.

[01:55:38] [SPEAKER_04]: So it was almost like an amalgam.

[01:55:40] [SPEAKER_04]: At least that's what I saw.

[01:55:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Really?

[01:55:43] [SPEAKER_04]: With that particular form.

[01:55:45] [SPEAKER_03]: What do you think David, what kind of hellbrand is that?

[01:55:48] [SPEAKER_06]: He didn't look like hellbrand from season one.

[01:55:50] [SPEAKER_06]: He had a nice hairdo for season two.

[01:55:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.

[01:55:55] [SPEAKER_06]: His armor was shiny and everything was trim and proper,

[01:56:00] [SPEAKER_06]: he looked a little bit more ship shape.

[01:56:02] [SPEAKER_06]: In season one he's a bit rougher around the edges.

[01:56:05] [SPEAKER_06]: I agree.

[01:56:06] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know how I feel about the falling off the edge.

[01:56:12] [SPEAKER_06]: the cliff thing.

[01:56:14] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm curious to know if there's any antecedents

[01:56:16] [SPEAKER_06]: in the literature for that.

[01:56:19] [SPEAKER_06]: I did like the stabbing with the crown

[01:56:21] [SPEAKER_06]: because it did kind of remind me of Frodo

[01:56:23] [SPEAKER_06]: and the, you know, the morgle blade kind of thing

[01:56:27] [SPEAKER_06]: and that type of movement.

[01:56:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, interesting connection.

[01:56:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I like that.

[01:56:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah, I caught that too.

[01:56:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Actually, that was one of the parts

[01:56:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't like about it

[01:56:33] [SPEAKER_03]: because I thought it was too much like,

[01:56:35] [SPEAKER_03]: why are we doing it again?

[01:56:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I was just,

[01:56:37] [SPEAKER_04]: I was seeing it as a mirroring

[01:56:39] [SPEAKER_04]: of the opening of the season.

[01:56:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Sure, yeah, that too.

[01:56:42] [SPEAKER_04]: I think overall that was my biggest takeaway is,

[01:56:45] [SPEAKER_04]: all right, so it was done to you

[01:56:46] [SPEAKER_04]: and now you're going to do it to everyone

[01:56:48] [SPEAKER_04]: that you feel is standing in your way.

[01:56:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Right. But I don't know is if

[01:56:54] [SPEAKER_06]: we're completely off book here

[01:56:56] [SPEAKER_06]: with this fight between the two.

[01:56:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, Lord, yes. Yeah.

[01:56:59] [SPEAKER_06]: And there's there's nothing ever about Galadriel.

[01:57:03] [SPEAKER_03]: There's not really a lot of Galadriel

[01:57:05] [SPEAKER_03]: at all in the second age in the right.

[01:57:06] [SPEAKER_03]: No. Well, so most of what you see

[01:57:08] [SPEAKER_03]: with Galadriel in this is fiction.

[01:57:10] [SPEAKER_03]: It is non-canon.

[01:57:12] [SPEAKER_03]: It's all fiction, but.

[01:57:14] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think mostly

[01:57:15] [SPEAKER_04]: fiction in Galadriel in any kind of fighting situation.

[01:57:20] [SPEAKER_04]: So and I think that's what a lot of people

[01:57:24] [SPEAKER_04]: had a hard time getting accustomed to,

[01:57:27] [SPEAKER_04]: particularly in the first season.

[01:57:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Although there are writings of Tolkien,

[01:57:30] [SPEAKER_03]: especially in thinking of unfinished tales

[01:57:32] [SPEAKER_03]: and do minor Middle Earth,

[01:57:34] [SPEAKER_03]: where Tolkien describes Galadriel as more of a warrior.

[01:57:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, in some run, she's described as

[01:57:40] [SPEAKER_04]: is joining the fight.

[01:57:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. So it's certainly ships.

[01:57:45] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's not definitely not outside her wheelhouse.

[01:57:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. And she looked upon the Dwarves of Khazadum

[01:57:50] [SPEAKER_04]: with the eyes of a general.

[01:57:52] [SPEAKER_04]: So there's these little touches here and there.

[01:57:57] [SPEAKER_06]: But yeah.

[01:57:58] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm just not sure about her falling.

[01:58:00] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, that was much like Elrond did

[01:58:02] [SPEAKER_06]: when he refused to give Gilgallad the ring.

[01:58:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:58:08] [SPEAKER_06]: And so and then I don't know, you know,

[01:58:10] [SPEAKER_06]: she survives somehow, you know, because Elf.

[01:58:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Well, I'm OK with the elves having like better

[01:58:18] [SPEAKER_06]: bounce a better bounce.

[01:58:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Yeah, they're lighter, right?

[01:58:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Like they're they're they're light footed.

[01:58:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Shedder. Yeah, maybe.

[01:58:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe cast in Shedderfall.

[01:58:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, look, she's like a super, super elf.

[01:58:30] [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, being one of the original Noldor,

[01:58:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I think super, super elf.

[01:58:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Did when they looked up, who was it?

[01:58:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Arandir and did Gilgallad or Elrond look up?

[01:58:41] [SPEAKER_06]: I know Arandir did.

[01:58:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's kind of like a star falling.

[01:58:47] [SPEAKER_04]: And with their elf eyes, they could see her falling for sure.

[01:58:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I was fine with the fall.

[01:58:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't like it as much as the Elrond thing.

[01:58:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I think we're overplaying that a little bit now.

[01:58:57] [SPEAKER_03]: The same thing.

[01:58:58] [SPEAKER_03]: And I liked Elrond a lot better

[01:58:59] [SPEAKER_03]: because it connected to his mother.

[01:59:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. And he was he was plunging into water and right.

[01:59:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. And he was jumping, not falling.

[01:59:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. Like there's there's a difference.

[01:59:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. Don't they do that? Right.

[01:59:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Like you there's a certain amount of distance

[01:59:12] [SPEAKER_03]: you'll be from the window if you jumped fall, fell or were pushed.

[01:59:16] [SPEAKER_06]: It's like I guess I haven't watched enough long order to know that.

[01:59:25] [SPEAKER_06]: All right. All right.

[01:59:26] [SPEAKER_04]: But the one thing I did like about that

[01:59:28] [SPEAKER_04]: is that finally Elrond found something more important than his pride

[01:59:33] [SPEAKER_04]: and finally accepted that the Elven rings could.

[01:59:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, is this a do something?

[01:59:39] [SPEAKER_04]: OK. Right.

[01:59:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's the next scene.

[01:59:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's at the end. Yeah.

[01:59:43] [SPEAKER_06]: We're still talking about dwarves in battle in a Reggion and stuff.

[01:59:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes. Yeah. We haven't done that yet.

[01:59:48] [SPEAKER_03]: There is still a little bit more.

[01:59:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Dwarf later, but I think actually now most of the dwarven warring is here.

[01:59:57] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. Right. With their machine gun crossbows.

[01:59:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm OK with it.

[02:00:00] [SPEAKER_06]: I would expect that they would have higher tech crossbows.

[02:00:04] [SPEAKER_06]: I've missed that all together.

[02:00:05] [SPEAKER_03]: The Ravager was less believable than the Orc.

[02:00:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, the Ravager was a strange thing.

[02:00:10] [SPEAKER_06]: But it was very convenient.

[02:00:11] [SPEAKER_06]: They just show up at the last minute and, you know, I wish.

[02:00:15] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I just wish they had played that a little differently personally.

[02:00:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I was sad because I think I said this a couple of times

[02:00:21] [SPEAKER_04]: that I was really looking forward to the moment when Dwarf arrives

[02:00:24] [SPEAKER_04]: at the head of his army and rescues Elrond.

[02:00:28] [SPEAKER_04]: And OK, so they did it as close as they could

[02:00:30] [SPEAKER_04]: within the context of what they were doing.

[02:00:32] [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, I get it.

[02:00:33] [SPEAKER_04]: He can't go from watching his father die to leading an army.

[02:00:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, being with his friend.

[02:00:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Siv, Shiva last seven days, right?

[02:00:43] [SPEAKER_06]: That's true. You had something, Marilyn,

[02:00:46] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it was in our in our private chat

[02:00:50] [SPEAKER_06]: something about the scrolls and the trees and the.

[02:00:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I thought that was really interesting.

[02:00:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Say more that.

[02:00:58] [SPEAKER_04]: In season one, we saw Sylvan elves who were willing

[02:01:03] [SPEAKER_04]: to give up their lives to defend a tree.

[02:01:07] [SPEAKER_04]: When back when they were all captured

[02:01:09] [SPEAKER_04]: and in the trenches of the orcs and they were going to cut down a tree.

[02:01:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. And the elves said, look,

[02:01:15] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, this has been around here longer than you have and so on and so on.

[02:01:18] [SPEAKER_04]: And after a rondeer sees

[02:01:21] [SPEAKER_04]: at least one, if not more of his comrades being cut down, he says,

[02:01:25] [SPEAKER_04]: right, stop, I'll do it.

[02:01:27] [SPEAKER_04]: And before he does, he asked the trees forgiveness.

[02:01:31] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm sure that's what he was thinking of when winter blossom.

[02:01:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Had him captured and said,

[02:01:39] [SPEAKER_04]: have you ever set wood ax to living wood?

[02:01:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, did we I don't think we even talked about that in relation to season one.

[02:01:48] [SPEAKER_06]: That's actually interesting.

[02:01:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, I think you brought I think Marilyn brought it up.

[02:01:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think it came.

[02:01:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I think we did touch on briefly, but and I'm sure that's what he was

[02:01:55] [SPEAKER_04]: recalling when you said to my great sorrow.

[02:01:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yes, I have.

[02:01:59] [SPEAKER_04]: And so now we see the no daughter in elves and of course, Elrond in particular,

[02:02:04] [SPEAKER_04]: who is held up as a scholar saying, kill me, but save the scrolls.

[02:02:11] [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, the librarian in me gets that.

[02:02:14] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not sure that I would have the passion

[02:02:17] [SPEAKER_04]: and or the courage to put myself in that position.

[02:02:21] [SPEAKER_04]: But I just it really resonated for me is, OK,

[02:02:23] [SPEAKER_04]: here's a way of seeing the difference.

[02:02:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Your moment of of Northern Courage, Marilyn,

[02:02:28] [SPEAKER_04]: throwing yourselves in front of the well, I mean,

[02:02:32] [SPEAKER_04]: perhaps it's just that I do think that lives are more important.

[02:02:36] [SPEAKER_03]: And also you're you're living in an age where we have mass media and right.

[02:02:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Matt, the printing press has been wonders

[02:02:44] [SPEAKER_03]: for not needing to sacrifice yourself for books.

[02:02:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, and things, you know, things disappear daily from from the Internet.

[02:02:51] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's not like once it's there, it'll never go away, even that's what people say.

[02:02:56] [SPEAKER_04]: But you know, websites and preservation and everything.

[02:02:58] [SPEAKER_04]: But don't get me started on that because I don't think that's why people are here to listen to me.

[02:03:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Basically, I just saw it as a really interesting way of highlighting

[02:03:08] [SPEAKER_04]: the differences between these two types of Elm between a Sylvan Elven and Old Dorian.

[02:03:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.

[02:03:13] [SPEAKER_04]: And I mean, if that is the only copy of whatever knowledge it is,

[02:03:17] [SPEAKER_04]: it's a big loss.

[02:03:19] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's a way to part of what I read into it was

[02:03:25] [SPEAKER_06]: no one is going to be able to reverse engineer the rings.

[02:03:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Sure, sure.

[02:03:32] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, to either undo Sauron's influences or to create something that could be a counter to it.

[02:03:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Or, you know, there it's cutting off any future

[02:03:42] [SPEAKER_06]: challenge to this ultimate power that was designed by this guy who's now dead.

[02:03:46] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's also a good way for the show to say,

[02:03:51] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, we're falling away from our former glories.

[02:03:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Right? We've just lost this information that we had

[02:03:59] [SPEAKER_04]: for thousands of years and we're in the process of losing

[02:04:04] [SPEAKER_04]: the one who created a lot of it.

[02:04:06] [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, how can we ever recover that, reclaim that, whatever?

[02:04:11] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's definitely again, this feeling of a long defeat.

[02:04:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Much that once was is lost.

[02:04:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.

[02:04:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't now live to remember it.

[02:04:20] [SPEAKER_04]: And is that actually Elrond in the Council of Elrond chapter?

[02:04:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know that.

[02:04:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Galadriel is that's Galadriel, but in the movie in the opening.

[02:04:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if it's in the book.

[02:04:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, OK, OK.

[02:04:32] [SPEAKER_04]: So who knows where it actually was.

[02:04:33] [SPEAKER_04]: But anyway, it certainly sounds like something Elrond would say.

[02:04:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Another thing about the burning just quickly, too,

[02:04:39] [SPEAKER_06]: and we had been talking about this, and oh, by the way,

[02:04:41] [SPEAKER_06]: within the 24 hour break, a blog post went up on our website,

[02:04:46] [SPEAKER_06]: the Lorehounds.com slash blog by our very own

[02:04:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Loremaster, do 71, yes, who wrote a great little summation

[02:04:58] [SPEAKER_06]: of the conversation that we had, Marilyn, about orcs versus

[02:05:00] [SPEAKER_06]: or hooks and the idea of inherent evil versus not inherent evil.

[02:05:06] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know how to say.

[02:05:08] [SPEAKER_06]: So go check out.

[02:05:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, go check out that.

[02:05:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Thing that blog post.

[02:05:13] [SPEAKER_06]: It's a really nice short article.

[02:05:15] [SPEAKER_06]: Very good.

[02:05:16] [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, it is really good writer.

[02:05:18] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm he's very lucid in his writing style.

[02:05:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Definitely lucid.

[02:05:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, very clear.

[02:05:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I've not I've not heard.

[02:05:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Writing described as Lucid before.

[02:05:29] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't really know.

[02:05:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, I think it was lucid dreaming.

[02:05:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's a nice writing.

[02:05:35] [SPEAKER_06]: But the idea that this so

[02:05:40] [SPEAKER_06]: in this moment anyway, this is an orcish attitude to destroy

[02:05:44] [SPEAKER_06]: knowledge and to be stubborn about it and to be like, oh,

[02:05:49] [SPEAKER_06]: well, you don't want me to do this thing.

[02:05:50] [SPEAKER_06]: So I am going to do this thing.

[02:05:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, that was the obvious thing that was going to happen.

[02:05:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Right? Yeah, exactly.

[02:05:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Whether or not it was knowledge or or silk tapestries.

[02:06:00] [SPEAKER_04]: It just, you know, right.

[02:06:02] [SPEAKER_06]: They were right.

[02:06:02] [SPEAKER_06]: And that and that embodies that idea of an orcish attitude,

[02:06:06] [SPEAKER_06]: which is sort of uncareful, unempathetic.

[02:06:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's sure. Oh, yeah, for sure.

[02:06:12] [SPEAKER_04]: For sure. I mean, I doubt how he been there might have objected to who knows.

[02:06:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Good point.

[02:06:17] [SPEAKER_03]: But there's a there's a line in Jordan and I don't remember

[02:06:20] [SPEAKER_03]: if Tolkien says something similar, but eyes without pity.

[02:06:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. Yeah. Right.

[02:06:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. I think Tolkien has said some more things,

[02:06:29] [SPEAKER_04]: just maybe not with those exact wording or is it whatever.

[02:06:32] [SPEAKER_03]: So let's move on to another scene that I called guess who's a ring bearer.

[02:06:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Can we just before we do say, oh, maybe this is the scene.

[02:06:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, it's about our own.

[02:06:40] [SPEAKER_03]: That is go go go.

[02:06:41] [SPEAKER_03]: You're going to make me do another 20 minute per scene podcast,

[02:06:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Marilyn, how we got the day two of this recording.

[02:06:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I am sorry. I'm just I'm just kidding.

[02:06:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I know you every thought, every thought that you bring.

[02:06:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Gilgallad finds Galadriel with our on dear and tells her on dear

[02:06:58] [SPEAKER_03]: that Galadriel is physically wounded, but also drawn into the shadow realm.

[02:07:02] [SPEAKER_03]: He tries to heal her with Vilya, but it's not working.

[02:07:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Elrond eyes Nenya and decides to bear it to heal her together with Gilgallad.

[02:07:13] [SPEAKER_06]: So what does Gilgallad's ring do?

[02:07:20] [SPEAKER_06]: And I had what I wrote this on my note, like I wrote this,

[02:07:23] [SPEAKER_06]: what does Gigi's ring do?

[02:07:25] [SPEAKER_06]: I then had a thought because I was reacting to my own thought,

[02:07:29] [SPEAKER_06]: which was, gosh, why do I need to know what the material function?

[02:07:36] [SPEAKER_06]: What is the the mechanistic aspect of this ring do?

[02:07:42] [SPEAKER_06]: And I thought, oh, that's interesting.

[02:07:43] [SPEAKER_06]: That sort of belies my thought as to being a Western technologically driven kind

[02:07:49] [SPEAKER_06]: of guy, oh, what does my new smartphone do?

[02:07:51] [SPEAKER_06]: What are the features?

[02:07:52] [SPEAKER_06]: What are what are the features of these rings?

[02:07:56] [SPEAKER_06]: I need to know their exact definition.

[02:07:59] [SPEAKER_06]: And is it going to need a firmware update and all this kind of stuff?

[02:08:03] [SPEAKER_06]: And I don't know that.

[02:08:06] [SPEAKER_06]: You clicked on the show guide.

[02:08:07] [SPEAKER_06]: What's that?

[02:08:08] [SPEAKER_06]: I haven't looked on the show yet, actually.

[02:08:11] [SPEAKER_06]: The that that Tolkien necessarily that wasn't the point.

[02:08:16] [SPEAKER_06]: It wasn't a screwdriver or a, you know, a widget driver or something.

[02:08:21] [SPEAKER_06]: It didn't have to.

[02:08:22] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it has more a fuzzy boundary of what it can do and what it's

[02:08:27] [SPEAKER_06]: what their purposes are.

[02:08:29] [SPEAKER_03]: When does Gandalf use his magic when he needs to, you know, if it's very like,

[02:08:33] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah, I agree with you, David, it's a soft magic system in a lot of ways.

[02:08:37] [SPEAKER_04]: What we do know about the ring is that Gielgallad has is that

[02:08:42] [SPEAKER_04]: it's the ring of air.

[02:08:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And in most magic systems from the stories that Tolkien is drawing

[02:08:49] [SPEAKER_04]: from air has to do with knowledge.

[02:08:53] [SPEAKER_04]: And what the show winners have him say is by the power of the High King,

[02:08:59] [SPEAKER_04]: I am driving out the darkness.

[02:09:03] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's, I mean, air and light.

[02:09:06] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if you can associate those two things or not.

[02:09:08] [SPEAKER_04]: It's definitely not the ring of fire, of course, because that's with Kyrgyzm.

[02:09:12] [SPEAKER_04]: And its function is to warm hearts and to encourage people

[02:09:15] [SPEAKER_04]: and bring people together and so on.

[02:09:17] [SPEAKER_04]: And so the way I read it was I as the High King have strong access

[02:09:25] [SPEAKER_04]: to the light of the Valar and of the elves.

[02:09:30] [SPEAKER_04]: And I have authority over things of darkness.

[02:09:37] [SPEAKER_04]: But it is actually Nenya, which is associated with water.

[02:09:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Water is associated traditionally with healing.

[02:09:45] [SPEAKER_04]: In this same, you know, system of the four elements and so forth.

[02:09:51] [SPEAKER_04]: So I think that was an interesting way of saying, yes, these rings have power,

[02:09:56] [SPEAKER_04]: but they have specific powers as well.

[02:09:59] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's best to use the right ring for the right job, as it were.

[02:10:03] [SPEAKER_06]: Right. But you're not going to look up on the product webpage, the exact, you know.

[02:10:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Specifications? No.

[02:10:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, the exp...

[02:10:09] [SPEAKER_06]: It's a...

[02:10:12] [SPEAKER_06]: And it has something to do to with the character of the wielder

[02:10:16] [SPEAKER_06]: and it has something to do with...

[02:10:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.

[02:10:20] [SPEAKER_06]: So it has an, maybe the ring has an intent.

[02:10:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Not so much a purpose, but an intent or a

[02:10:29] [SPEAKER_06]: suggestion of an area, right?

[02:10:32] [SPEAKER_06]: And as opposed...

[02:10:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Do you see what I'm trying to get away from?

[02:10:34] [SPEAKER_06]: There's no rules.

[02:10:35] [SPEAKER_06]: There's just vibes.

[02:10:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly. It's a vibe ring.

[02:10:37] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not a mood ring. It's a vibes ring.

[02:10:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, the thing that touched me the most and that was to me,

[02:10:44] [SPEAKER_04]: the most significant was Gilgallad admitting that

[02:10:49] [SPEAKER_04]: High King, though he was, he did not have...

[02:10:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Didn't have enough.

[02:10:52] [SPEAKER_04]: The power to save her.

[02:10:54] [SPEAKER_04]: And Eldron says, I do.

[02:10:57] [SPEAKER_04]: We can.

[02:10:58] [SPEAKER_04]: And to me, the most important aspect of this was, you know,

[02:11:02] [SPEAKER_04]: the fellowship restored, if you will.

[02:11:04] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, Eldron is finally putting himself back

[02:11:09] [SPEAKER_04]: in company with his companions and working together instead of,

[02:11:14] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, being a leader who was kind of standing alone

[02:11:17] [SPEAKER_04]: and not really taking input from anybody else.

[02:11:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Recognizing that, yes, we can use these rings for good.

[02:11:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[02:11:28] [SPEAKER_04]: And in fact, in this instance, it's probably about the only thing

[02:11:31] [SPEAKER_04]: that's going to save my friend's life.

[02:11:33] [SPEAKER_04]: And maybe also the, you know, the sight of her in an elven,

[02:11:37] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, in an orcish cage and later on, you know, a prisoner

[02:11:41] [SPEAKER_04]: of a god and so forth made him reassess his choices.

[02:11:46] [SPEAKER_04]: But that was why, you know, it was like, oh, thank goodness.

[02:11:50] [SPEAKER_06]: They did stretch it out, his decision making process

[02:11:53] [SPEAKER_06]: for a little bit.

[02:11:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it shows his strength of will, doesn't it?

[02:11:57] [SPEAKER_04]: If nobody else.

[02:11:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[02:11:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Which is a good thing, but they can also turn against you.

[02:12:04] [SPEAKER_06]: Now, is it spoilery to talk that he did?

[02:12:07] [SPEAKER_06]: He doesn't have a ring in the Lord of the Rings.

[02:12:09] [SPEAKER_08]: All right, then keep your secrets there.

[02:12:11] [SPEAKER_03]: No, actually, I think we can talk about that

[02:12:13] [SPEAKER_03]: because we said we would talk about Lord of the Rings.

[02:12:15] [SPEAKER_03]: OK, does have a ring in Lord of the Rings, but it is not

[02:12:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Villia. OK, I'm sorry.

[02:12:19] [SPEAKER_03]: It is Villia. Why am I saying it's not Villia?

[02:12:22] [SPEAKER_03]: He gets Villia and Lord of the Rings.

[02:12:22] [SPEAKER_06]: You just want to get added.

[02:12:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. I'm just I'm trying to bait it.

[02:12:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. So he has Villia in.

[02:12:30] [SPEAKER_06]: And is that what helps him keep Rivendell?

[02:12:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes. Yes.

[02:12:35] [SPEAKER_03]: All of the Elven realms that remain,

[02:12:37] [SPEAKER_03]: which it's really like two, the main ones,

[02:12:41] [SPEAKER_03]: the two main Elven realms that remain for the high elves, I should say.

[02:12:46] [SPEAKER_03]: What are you talking about, Linden for the third one?

[02:12:49] [SPEAKER_04]: No, I'm talking about the Grey Havens.

[02:12:51] [SPEAKER_03]: That's what I meant, the Grey Havens.

[02:12:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Grey Havens, Rivendell and Lorien.

[02:12:54] [SPEAKER_03]: OK, there's no ringing the Grey Havens anymore.

[02:12:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Because starting off at the beginning of Lord of the Rings,

[02:13:01] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you know, yes, that is eventually true.

[02:13:04] [SPEAKER_03]: But like that's that's thousands of years before the start of Lord of the Rings.

[02:13:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Right? It is.

[02:13:08] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'll be very interested to see how the show decides to get

[02:13:11] [SPEAKER_04]: that ring from Gilgallad to Elrond.

[02:13:15] [SPEAKER_04]: All right. It's freely given.

[02:13:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Secrets. All right. Exactly.

[02:13:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, it's looping again.

[02:13:20] [SPEAKER_03]: It's looped.

[02:13:21] [SPEAKER_04]: That's why I said I'll be interested to see how they do it

[02:13:23] [SPEAKER_04]: because I don't know how they're going to do it.

[02:13:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Again, we are not.

[02:13:26] [SPEAKER_03]: We're trying to do a very difficult thing here, which is

[02:13:30] [SPEAKER_03]: we understand that everyone has seen the Peter Jackson movies pretty much.

[02:13:33] [SPEAKER_03]: He was watching the show.

[02:13:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And we're also trying to not spoil events

[02:13:38] [SPEAKER_03]: that will get you to the Peter Jackson movie.

[02:13:40] [SPEAKER_03]: We'll still understanding that there is the Peter Jackson movie that you've seen.

[02:13:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. So yes, Elrond has Vilja,

[02:13:46] [SPEAKER_03]: the Ring of Air in the Peter Jackson movie.

[02:13:50] [SPEAKER_03]: But I will add don't let the air part like mislead you,

[02:13:54] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, you see what he does with the Bruin in Lord of the Rings.

[02:13:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. He can manipulate water too.

[02:14:00] [SPEAKER_03]: There is it's not just that's what I mean about.

[02:14:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, there's no rules like that.

[02:14:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. Right. Right.

[02:14:07] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not like the Avatar of the Last Airbender

[02:14:09] [SPEAKER_03]: where everyone can control an element, but not the other elements.

[02:14:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. No, no, it's not that.

[02:14:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Or if you look up in the, you know, Dungeon Master's Guide

[02:14:17] [SPEAKER_06]: and you're like, oh, it's a ring of whatever

[02:14:19] [SPEAKER_06]: and it does this and that on a 2D whatever.

[02:14:21] [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, there's not a specific

[02:14:24] [SPEAKER_06]: because in D&D we're trying to

[02:14:28] [SPEAKER_06]: delineate very carefully those rules so that we can actually

[02:14:32] [SPEAKER_06]: create the shared fantasy where in literature

[02:14:36] [SPEAKER_06]: we're approaching it in a very different way.

[02:14:38] [SPEAKER_03]: So nobody was paying attention to the rules in Baldur's Gate

[02:14:41] [SPEAKER_03]: because they were thirsting over an a starion.

[02:14:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, and in Tokyo and they're more like guidelines.

[02:14:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Hmm. Right. Yeah. Right.

[02:14:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. You know, if sometimes you need to get away from the sons of fey

[02:14:55] [SPEAKER_03]: and or when you turn into a fucking bird and that's fine.

[02:14:58] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, there's not there's not a ton of rules guys.

[02:15:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Fair enough. All right.

[02:15:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's move on to what I call the finale montage.

[02:15:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Nori weeps at the destruction of the store homeland,

[02:15:12] [SPEAKER_03]: but Poppy launches into a monologue about how Sadduck Boroughs

[02:15:16] [SPEAKER_03]: told her how to deal with things that are lost.

[02:15:19] [SPEAKER_03]: We get a montage, including the destruction of a Reggion Isildur

[02:15:22] [SPEAKER_03]: looking longingly at Estrid as she holds.

[02:15:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Hagan, is that how we're saying it?

[02:15:27] [SPEAKER_04]: I say Hagan. Hagan. I think they say Hagan.

[02:15:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Does. Yes. Yeah.

[02:15:32] [SPEAKER_06]: I was trying not to say you said it. OK.

[02:15:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll say I'll say anything. Yeah.

[02:15:38] [SPEAKER_03]: As she holds Hagan's hand, Miriel surrendering to Farazon

[02:15:44] [SPEAKER_03]: and Elendil fleeing a burning capital city.

[02:15:48] [SPEAKER_03]: We also get Sarah on holding the hammer of Fanor

[02:15:52] [SPEAKER_03]: as Poppy talks about building something new.

[02:15:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm going to read the poppy quote here, the end of it.

[02:15:58] [SPEAKER_03]: What's broke is broken won't fix.

[02:15:59] [SPEAKER_03]: And all anyone can do is try to build something new.

[02:16:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's when we get Sarah on holding the hammer of Fanor.

[02:16:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. I wonder what he's going to do.

[02:16:11] [SPEAKER_08]: Hmm. Hmm.

[02:16:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I noticed one thing because I look closely.

[02:16:15] [SPEAKER_04]: There was no leather around the hammer of Fanor at that point.

[02:16:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, my theory is that the leather was put around it

[02:16:21] [SPEAKER_04]: for a particular smithing reason.

[02:16:24] [SPEAKER_04]: When it was being used by Caleb Putnam-Bor.

[02:16:29] [SPEAKER_04]: And it was later taken off.

[02:16:30] [SPEAKER_04]: I couldn't really tell.

[02:16:33] [SPEAKER_04]: There were there were sort of shapes that could have been gems,

[02:16:35] [SPEAKER_04]: but I couldn't really tell if they were actually any gems in here or not.

[02:16:37] [SPEAKER_04]: I just didn't remember any gems being in there from season one.

[02:16:40] [SPEAKER_03]: But he's just he's just got a metal allergy,

[02:16:43] [SPEAKER_03]: so he has to protect his hands, you know.

[02:16:46] [SPEAKER_04]: And was anybody else reminded of Sam's speech at the end of the two towers?

[02:16:51] [SPEAKER_06]: I guess it was.

[02:16:52] [SPEAKER_06]: I haven't watched the two towers in quite a long time.

[02:16:54] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, I kind of got the Sun will come out tomorrow vibes.

[02:17:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Although also, it's an interesting contrast

[02:17:02] [SPEAKER_04]: because Sam is saying, you know, the great tales.

[02:17:06] [SPEAKER_04]: You know that the sun is going to shine all the clearer

[02:17:08] [SPEAKER_04]: because people didn't give up.

[02:17:12] [SPEAKER_04]: And this is different.

[02:17:14] [SPEAKER_04]: This is saying sometimes you have to let go

[02:17:18] [SPEAKER_04]: because you can't fix it, right?

[02:17:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Which I thought was was a good message.

[02:17:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Mildly preachy, perhaps.

[02:17:26] [SPEAKER_04]: But it was also a useful way of kind of bringing us

[02:17:29] [SPEAKER_04]: to the concluding points of all these different threads that we've been

[02:17:32] [SPEAKER_03]: following. I will say it did feel so unnatural

[02:17:35] [SPEAKER_03]: because they stretch it out to cover all those scenes.

[02:17:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.

[02:17:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And people just don't talk like that.

[02:17:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, that was my one complaint with it.

[02:17:43] [SPEAKER_03]: But overall, I thought a very Tolkien-esque, you know, monologue.

[02:17:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I had no problems with the content itself.

[02:17:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, well, this is where we see the difference

[02:17:53] [SPEAKER_04]: between determined courage and eukatastrophe.

[02:17:57] [SPEAKER_04]: And those of you who listen to our subscribers

[02:18:01] [SPEAKER_04]: will hear our lorecast on eukatastrophe

[02:18:05] [SPEAKER_04]: to find out what that means.

[02:18:07] [SPEAKER_06]: And we talked earlier when we were in Palaugier

[02:18:11] [SPEAKER_06]: with Isildur and what's his name?

[02:18:16] [SPEAKER_06]: The young the Bronwyn Son Theo, thank you about

[02:18:20] [SPEAKER_03]: King of Angstmar.

[02:18:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to keep calling him that.

[02:18:24] [SPEAKER_06]: That

[02:18:25] [SPEAKER_06]: that's.

[02:18:27] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, sometimes those hurts can't be fixed

[02:18:31] [SPEAKER_06]: and you just need to you need to figure out how to carry on

[02:18:34] [SPEAKER_06]: with that with that wound, with that broken piece, whatever.

[02:18:39] [SPEAKER_06]: And you know what?

[02:18:40] [SPEAKER_06]: And in a way, that's OK, because if you're trying to fix it,

[02:18:44] [SPEAKER_06]: you're trying to get past it.

[02:18:47] [SPEAKER_06]: You're trying to

[02:18:50] [SPEAKER_06]: maybe rush past something that you should just be with for a while.

[02:18:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.

[02:18:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.

[02:18:57] [SPEAKER_06]: And sometimes it's that

[02:18:59] [SPEAKER_06]: holding on to that memory of that person or that time or that place

[02:19:03] [SPEAKER_06]: over time that is going to with with time is going to

[02:19:12] [SPEAKER_06]: somehow integrate that into your being so that it's not broken,

[02:19:16] [SPEAKER_06]: but it's not something that is, oh, happy, happy joy, rainbow,

[02:19:22] [SPEAKER_06]: you know, unicorn kind of right?

[02:19:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Does that make sense? Yeah.

[02:19:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Like there's a there's a there's a there's a part of life

[02:19:28] [SPEAKER_06]: that is a kind of a melancholy that we need to kind of a I don't

[02:19:32] [SPEAKER_06]: know, is it an ennya thing?

[02:19:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely. I mean, part of this is

[02:19:37] [SPEAKER_04]: figuring out who you are and now that that person is no longer a part of your life.

[02:19:41] [SPEAKER_06]: That's a really good way to put it, regardless of how they were

[02:19:44] [SPEAKER_04]: taken away, what the event was.

[02:19:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[02:19:48] [SPEAKER_04]: But you are no longer who you were.

[02:19:50] [SPEAKER_04]: And that realization, I think, doesn't really come until sometime

[02:19:55] [SPEAKER_04]: after started doing the grieving process for the person you have lost.

[02:20:00] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's a process, right?

[02:20:02] [SPEAKER_04]: It absolutely is.

[02:20:03] [SPEAKER_04]: And if you're not given time to do it,

[02:20:05] [SPEAKER_04]: that makes it even harder.

[02:20:08] [SPEAKER_04]: And it looks like Theo doesn't have a whole lot of time

[02:20:10] [SPEAKER_04]: because there's a lot of demands on his attention and so forth.

[02:20:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I just want to plug never mind the music or affiliate podcast,

[02:20:17] [SPEAKER_03]: just an excellent podcast on grief

[02:20:20] [SPEAKER_03]: where Nicole, the psychologist of Pear, talked a lot about what grief is,

[02:20:25] [SPEAKER_03]: why it's healthy, why it's her favorite emotion, I think she said.

[02:20:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Good.

[02:20:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think to have, I think, just as a as a concept, right?

[02:20:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Is and I thought it was very beautiful episode

[02:20:36] [SPEAKER_03]: and I'm planning to write in our discord about my thoughts on the episode.

[02:20:42] [SPEAKER_06]: So that that was the bone thugs in harmony.

[02:20:46] [SPEAKER_06]: The song, wasn't it?

[02:20:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it was on.

[02:20:49] [SPEAKER_03]: They it was like a follow up to their crossroads episode.

[02:20:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Right. Oh, OK, OK.

[02:20:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I wish Alicia was here right now

[02:20:55] [SPEAKER_04]: because she would come up with the quote from One Division

[02:20:58] [SPEAKER_04]: about grief being love that continues on after death or something like that.

[02:21:04] [SPEAKER_04]: So apologies for mangling at Alicia, but I'm sure somebody will

[02:21:09] [SPEAKER_04]: write in and give us the exact words.

[02:21:12] [SPEAKER_06]: So I guess the the stores have to do a little moving.

[02:21:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Stores are going to learn about migration.

[02:21:20] [SPEAKER_06]: So, hmm, it's not like we didn't see that coming

[02:21:24] [SPEAKER_06]: the whole season.

[02:21:25] [SPEAKER_06]: We're like, oh, sure, these guys aren't going to be here for much longer.

[02:21:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, they're going to find the phallohads too, aren't they?

[02:21:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we're eventually phallohids.

[02:21:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, eventually. Yeah.

[02:21:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe they're already there.

[02:21:35] [SPEAKER_03]: They're like, what?

[02:21:35] [SPEAKER_03]: What took you guys so long?

[02:21:37] [SPEAKER_06]: And then like, I think we talked about this yesterday was the

[02:21:41] [SPEAKER_06]: earlier in this podcast, sorry, was what was the evidence against Miriel?

[02:21:46] [SPEAKER_06]: We see him reading a scroll that we don't have.

[02:21:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. And that's why I was wondering if they're not going to

[02:21:51] [SPEAKER_06]: if they're not kind of kicking that one to to season three.

[02:21:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, in a sense, it doesn't matter.

[02:21:58] [SPEAKER_04]: We knew that even with the affirmation of the fallout

[02:22:02] [SPEAKER_04]: and the form of the sea monster,

[02:22:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Fata's on was not going to say, oh, right, right.

[02:22:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. Come on back.

[02:22:08] [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to call this one a whoopsy daisy.

[02:22:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Just move on.

[02:22:12] [SPEAKER_04]: But it is kind of interesting because there is there was a suggestion

[02:22:16] [SPEAKER_04]: from him looking in the Palin theater that he was seeing Elbred.

[02:22:20] [SPEAKER_04]: So how is that?

[02:22:22] [SPEAKER_04]: How are they going to conceptualize

[02:22:23] [SPEAKER_04]: the keep your own secrets stuff that's going to be happening in the future?

[02:22:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we got a word just going to have to move on from that thought

[02:22:32] [SPEAKER_03]: because two spoilery.

[02:22:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah. Far, far two spoilery.

[02:22:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's let's thank the grand elf.

[02:22:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I was I was sad that Nori didn't give him a hug.

[02:22:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Poppy did.

[02:22:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, let's recap the scene quick.

[02:22:47] [SPEAKER_03]: The stranger is thanked by the stores who all call him the grand elf.

[02:22:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Nori tells him it's time for them to part ways

[02:22:56] [SPEAKER_03]: while he recognizes their differences.

[02:22:58] [SPEAKER_03]: She notes their similarities.

[02:23:00] [SPEAKER_03]: After she walks away, grand elf finds his staff.

[02:23:05] [SPEAKER_03]: He takes it to Tom Bombadil, who helps the stranger determine

[02:23:08] [SPEAKER_03]: that his name will be Gandalf.

[02:23:11] [SPEAKER_03]: The stranger sits with Tom by the fire as they sing his theme song.

[02:23:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Meanwhile, the dark wizard looks on menacingly.

[02:23:22] [SPEAKER_04]: And we see a nice shot of the hermit's hat overhead.

[02:23:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, clearly.

[02:23:28] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's toy.

[02:23:29] [SPEAKER_06]: That's the second time that they gave us the hermits hermits hat.

[02:23:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Everyone said I really do enjoy

[02:23:38] [SPEAKER_03]: bears music as far as the Tom Bombadil thing.

[02:23:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I I could listen to it all day, right?

[02:23:43] [SPEAKER_03]: The it really feels like you're just sort of wandering through the forest,

[02:23:47] [SPEAKER_03]: enjoying this relaxing song with your hermit friend.

[02:23:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, no, it is lovely.

[02:23:53] [SPEAKER_04]: It is definitely lovely.

[02:23:55] [SPEAKER_04]: And I really had the sense that Gandalf found his own name.

[02:23:58] [SPEAKER_04]: I know you said that you thought Tom was helping him along.

[02:24:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I think he sort of well, no, because he says, you know,

[02:24:05] [SPEAKER_03]: oh, wizard finds his wizard doesn't find his staff Harry Potter.

[02:24:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Right? He does the Harry Potter thing.

[02:24:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, the wizard doesn't choose the one.

[02:24:13] [SPEAKER_03]: The one chooses the wizard, Harry.

[02:24:14] [SPEAKER_03]: We need to John Hurt there.

[02:24:17] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, I and then he goes same thing as a name.

[02:24:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what cues the stranger to be like, oh, they're going to call me

[02:24:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Gandalf. So he does, I think, lead him to that water.

[02:24:28] [SPEAKER_03]: OK, at the same time.

[02:24:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how you make the leap from Grand Elf to Gandalf.

[02:24:33] [SPEAKER_03]: That's something that definitely look over thousands of years,

[02:24:37] [SPEAKER_03]: which is presumably what's going to happen now.

[02:24:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, Grand Elf can turn into Gandalf.

[02:24:42] [SPEAKER_03]: But for him to just be like, well, they just called me Grand Elf

[02:24:47] [SPEAKER_03]: a minute ago, they're going to call me Gandalf.

[02:24:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought that that was wildly unbelievable and

[02:24:54] [SPEAKER_03]: way too cute and I did not enjoy it.

[02:24:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's as much as I'm going to say about that

[02:24:59] [SPEAKER_03]: because I just did not like that.

[02:25:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know why they can't write dialogue for this guy in the last episode of each season.

[02:25:06] [SPEAKER_06]: What there was no precedent for them to refer to him as an elf?

[02:25:14] [SPEAKER_03]: There was actually in an earlier season,

[02:25:17] [SPEAKER_03]: in an earlier episode, I think they were like, oh, is he as big as an

[02:25:22] [SPEAKER_03]: OK, as an elf and they're like bigger.

[02:25:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And he goes, they're like, oh, so like a Grand Elf.

[02:25:27] [SPEAKER_03]: And then they go, no, a wizard.

[02:25:29] [SPEAKER_04]: That's OK.

[02:25:30] [SPEAKER_03]: And they did see that earlier because people flagged that people clocked that

[02:25:34] [SPEAKER_03]: and were like, oh, that's how he's going to get Gandalf.

[02:25:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Right, right, right.

[02:25:38] [SPEAKER_04]: And some listeners and people who wrote in

[02:25:41] [SPEAKER_04]: suggested he did get his staff from the good tree.

[02:25:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, was it from the good tree?

[02:25:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm pretty sure it was.

[02:25:49] [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I'm pretty.

[02:25:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Also, I like that I noticed on my second one that Nuri actually

[02:25:54] [SPEAKER_03]: places it where he's going to find it.

[02:25:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I miss that.

[02:25:58] [SPEAKER_03]: She was on her feet.

[02:25:59] [SPEAKER_03]: It was like in her way and she placed it right on the ground where he ended up

[02:26:03] [SPEAKER_04]: finding it. Oh, interesting. Huh. OK.

[02:26:06] [SPEAKER_04]: I also noticed that Tom Bombadil pours two cups of tea before the stranger

[02:26:09] [SPEAKER_04]: even walks in. So.

[02:26:12] [SPEAKER_03]: He was using his his.

[02:26:14] [SPEAKER_03]: My guy doesn't have any limitations.

[02:26:18] [SPEAKER_04]: But I will ask one more time.

[02:26:21] [SPEAKER_04]: What was the whole point of teasing the Gandalf identity

[02:26:25] [SPEAKER_04]: once we knew he was a good wizard?

[02:26:28] [SPEAKER_06]: The showrunners have.

[02:26:31] [SPEAKER_06]: I kind of noted this that I'm kind of glad we're done with this part now.

[02:26:36] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm glad this didn't carry on into season three.

[02:26:38] [SPEAKER_06]: I would have gotten a little exhausted by it.

[02:26:40] [SPEAKER_06]: But they did.

[02:26:42] [SPEAKER_06]: It was almost like a we're being clever.

[02:26:45] [SPEAKER_03]: A wink, wink. We're setting up too much force mystery box.

[02:26:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, exactly. Exactly.

[02:26:50] [SPEAKER_04]: I just I just thought it was overdone.

[02:26:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, the hints were only meaningful to people who already knew.

[02:26:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, which is most of the viewers and pretty much useless

[02:27:01] [SPEAKER_04]: to the ones who'd never heard of Gandalf before,

[02:27:05] [SPEAKER_04]: which is probably a very small number.

[02:27:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. I mean, listen to our year end podcast for 2022

[02:27:13] [SPEAKER_03]: and you'll hear me complain all day about mystery boxes.

[02:27:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I was just so sick of them at the point.

[02:27:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think I've moved past that and I do enjoy a good mystery box again now.

[02:27:23] [SPEAKER_03]: But this was not a well done one.

[02:27:26] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm really sad to not have gotten blue wizards.

[02:27:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I am too.

[02:27:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I would have loved to have seen their creativity

[02:27:34] [SPEAKER_04]: and how they explored that whole basically unexplored section.

[02:27:39] [SPEAKER_04]: I wonder if the Tolkien estate said, no, you can't.

[02:27:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's likely.

[02:27:44] [SPEAKER_06]: That's I would agree that it's likely

[02:27:47] [SPEAKER_06]: that they they're trying to keep a tight box around what they're releasing.

[02:27:52] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah, such that they don't then end up in a situation where,

[02:27:57] [SPEAKER_06]: oh, well, this director already did that or that writer already did something

[02:28:01] [SPEAKER_06]: and now we're stuck with it like there's a we don't want to use it

[02:28:05] [SPEAKER_06]: so that it doesn't get altered or you know, or set in stone set in stone.

[02:28:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, because we all now have Jackson's movies in our in our heads

[02:28:15] [SPEAKER_06]: about what a ballerog looks like or something like that.

[02:28:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. And that's that's controversial.

[02:28:20] [SPEAKER_03]: That is very controversial, that ballerog.

[02:28:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, yeah, I agree with you, David and Marilyn.

[02:28:27] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that this was a right to issue.

[02:28:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And also, I think it's not not necessarily that they rejected it.

[02:28:34] [SPEAKER_03]: But like if you need something from your parents, your kid, right?

[02:28:38] [SPEAKER_03]: You need something from your parents.

[02:28:40] [SPEAKER_03]: You have so much social capital with them, right?

[02:28:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Like if I ask you for three things that are like difficult asks in a row.

[02:28:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Sure, it gets less likely with each ass.

[02:28:52] Sure. Right.

[02:28:53] [SPEAKER_04]: So they probably had their own prioritized list.

[02:28:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. It's like, all right, well, we want to mention this.

[02:28:58] [SPEAKER_03]: We want to have a statue of Niana.

[02:29:00] [SPEAKER_03]: We really want to have that.

[02:29:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Do we want that or do we want to have the blue wizards?

[02:29:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Choice is yours.

[02:29:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I do think there's probably something like that going on.

[02:29:10] [SPEAKER_03]: You ever you ever watch Jack Black beg,

[02:29:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Led Zeppelin to let them use the immigrant song in School of Rock?

[02:29:17] [SPEAKER_06]: No.

[02:29:18] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know.

[02:29:19] [SPEAKER_03]: He stood. You've never seen School of Rock.

[02:29:22] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't think I have.

[02:29:23] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I'm very well aware of it. I know.

[02:29:26] [SPEAKER_03]: OK, well, there's a whole big scene where he can do a Jack Black

[02:29:29] [SPEAKER_06]: film festival at our next 11.

[02:29:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's absolutely.

[02:29:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Doing anyway, so they wanted to use the immigrant song because they were like,

[02:29:36] [SPEAKER_03]: we can't do a movie about rock and roll without Led Zeppelin.

[02:29:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And so he stood on the stage where they're filming the finale scene

[02:29:43] [SPEAKER_03]: and he begged to the camera for Led Zeppelin to let them use the song

[02:29:48] [SPEAKER_03]: because Led Zeppelin notoriously does not let people license their music.

[02:29:51] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[02:29:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And it worked and they actually they bit after he said this like plea

[02:29:56] [SPEAKER_03]: with all the kids in the background.

[02:29:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Fair enough.

[02:30:00] [SPEAKER_06]: And the immigrant song is a good song.

[02:30:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's one of the one of their greats.

[02:30:07] [SPEAKER_03]: All right.

[02:30:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, what do we think the dark wizard is?

[02:30:11] [SPEAKER_03]: We talked about this.

[02:30:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody thinks it's Sarah Mon.

[02:30:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm hoping we do.

[02:30:15] [SPEAKER_04]: We did. Yeah.

[02:30:16] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I wish it wasn't, but I really don't see how it couldn't be

[02:30:20] [SPEAKER_04]: given all the quote unquote hints that they've been giving us

[02:30:24] [SPEAKER_06]: and given what we just talked about from a rates standpoint.

[02:30:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly.

[02:30:28] [SPEAKER_06]: They're those are boxed the blues are boxed out.

[02:30:32] [SPEAKER_06]: What what it's Radegast,

[02:30:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Saruman and and I mean,

[02:30:37] [SPEAKER_03]: dark Radegast, give it to me.

[02:30:39] Give it to me.

[02:30:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Give me like I said, Sylvester McCoy, he can he can regenerate.

[02:30:45] [SPEAKER_03]: He's the doctor. We got it. We got it.

[02:30:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. So and and he's calling him his friend, right?

[02:30:50] [SPEAKER_06]: It's that whole. Yeah.

[02:30:51] [SPEAKER_04]: My old friend. Yeah.

[02:30:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. So old friend.

[02:30:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't point it out when we got to the other scene.

[02:30:57] [SPEAKER_03]: So there's three false friends in this episode,

[02:31:01] [SPEAKER_03]: and I kept forgetting to go through this. Good pick.

[02:31:03] [SPEAKER_03]: So you have the stranger and the dark wizard.

[02:31:09] [SPEAKER_03]: You have Kemen and

[02:31:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Isildur and you have kill a brimboor being called Melon by Sauron.

[02:31:19] [SPEAKER_03]: So false friends was a theme throughout this whole episode.

[02:31:22] [SPEAKER_04]: So good pick. Nice. Very nice.

[02:31:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Well done. Yeah.

[02:31:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I do. I do this sometimes.

[02:31:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I do some.

[02:31:32] [SPEAKER_06]: All right.

[02:31:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, final thought.

[02:31:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Did I was pretty happy with the portrayal of Bon Madille?

[02:31:38] [SPEAKER_06]: I thought they got that right.

[02:31:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I do too.

[02:31:41] [SPEAKER_04]: I do too. Yeah.

[02:31:43] [SPEAKER_04]: No, I liked I liked the balance.

[02:31:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Bearded Yoda was excellent.

[02:31:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[02:31:51] [SPEAKER_06]: It, you know, I think if it was it,

[02:31:55] [SPEAKER_06]: it was going to be a tough

[02:31:58] [SPEAKER_06]: depiction to make no matter what in the

[02:32:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Lord, yes, this the sides of the trail were steep on both sides

[02:32:04] [SPEAKER_06]: with jagged rocks down below on either precipice.

[02:32:09] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think they walked it and I really enjoyed it.

[02:32:12] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think I liked the

[02:32:17] [SPEAKER_06]: the contemplative Tom Bon Madille as opposed to, you know,

[02:32:21] [SPEAKER_06]: in your when we read it, it's jaunty and, you know, bouncy

[02:32:25] [SPEAKER_06]: and what have you.

[02:32:27] [SPEAKER_06]: But I think that that belies the fact of who

[02:32:32] [SPEAKER_06]: and what Tom represents like we talked about in our

[02:32:35] [SPEAKER_06]: right in our Lord cast that there's something deeper

[02:32:38] [SPEAKER_06]: and more connected and contemplative about Tom

[02:32:42] [SPEAKER_03]: and gentle, right?

[02:32:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Like he's always with the hobbits.

[02:32:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think sometimes with like the songs that feel like all caps.

[02:32:51] [SPEAKER_03]: It's it's really it's really hard to get that out of the out of the writing.

[02:32:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know. I think Tolkien might not have.

[02:32:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Adequately portrayed Tom Bon Madille for what he wanted him to be, right?

[02:33:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, to some degree, I wonder if Tolkien,

[02:33:05] [SPEAKER_04]: well, I know he didn't know specifically what he wanted him to be.

[02:33:08] [SPEAKER_03]: That's true. That's true.

[02:33:10] [SPEAKER_03]: So the next scene is called OK, they're doing Dwarven politics.

[02:33:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Duran Ford gets a briefing that the elves of Oregion were led to safety

[02:33:19] [SPEAKER_03]: in a valley north by Elrond.

[02:33:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Narvi tells Duran and Disa that Duran's brother

[02:33:26] [SPEAKER_03]: is gathering support for a rival claim

[02:33:28] [SPEAKER_03]: and that the dwarf lords are not wholly behind him

[02:33:30] [SPEAKER_03]: following his father's taxation efforts.

[02:33:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Duran looks at Dwarven rings.

[02:33:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[02:33:39] [SPEAKER_06]: So the rings haven't been given out.

[02:33:42] [SPEAKER_06]: And Duran, the third was just collecting every

[02:33:47] [SPEAKER_06]: piece of gold and treasure

[02:33:49] [SPEAKER_06]: and thing that he could from the other lords.

[02:33:53] [SPEAKER_03]: But he offered them to them.

[02:33:55] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think I think what they're leaning towards

[02:33:58] [SPEAKER_03]: and I'm realizing this now, I think what they're leading us towards is

[02:34:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Duran said, pay a lot of tribute to me and I'll give you a ring each.

[02:34:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And now they're going to come to collect next season.

[02:34:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And Duran four is not going to want to give them away.

[02:34:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, and they know he specifically says the Blue Mountain Dwarves

[02:34:16] [SPEAKER_04]: want their debts paid, you know?

[02:34:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Hmm. OK, because I do you owe us.

[02:34:21] [SPEAKER_06]: But they but all that gold is just sitting there.

[02:34:23] [SPEAKER_06]: It's a durable good.

[02:34:24] [SPEAKER_06]: You can return it.

[02:34:25] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, they don't refunds once you give it to us.

[02:34:29] [SPEAKER_03]: That's it. Well, I have a feeling that it's it's

[02:34:32] [SPEAKER_03]: it has the Bodega refund policy.

[02:34:34] [SPEAKER_03]: No refunds.

[02:34:36] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it was a case of, you know, we really want a ring.

[02:34:42] [SPEAKER_04]: As a result, we will do something that we've almost never done before.

[02:34:47] [SPEAKER_04]: And that is give away a whole lot of our own treasure and so forth.

[02:34:51] [SPEAKER_04]: And expect to get a return on that investment

[02:34:54] [SPEAKER_04]: with whatever the ring is going to do now. Yeah.

[02:34:58] [SPEAKER_06]: But what I guess I mean, there would have been tales told about

[02:35:03] [SPEAKER_06]: during the third and his behavior and attitudes and the kind of stuff

[02:35:10] [SPEAKER_06]: that he was getting up to with the ring.

[02:35:13] [SPEAKER_06]: So you have a counter narrative if you wanted to use it to.

[02:35:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Or are you just telling me that because you're trying to keep the rings for yourself?

[02:35:20] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. Good points, good points.

[02:35:21] [SPEAKER_04]: And we know that she didn't like his son.

[02:35:23] [SPEAKER_03]: So right, David, we have video footage of events here today

[02:35:28] [SPEAKER_03]: that people deny and are truthers.

[02:35:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. Right. Yeah.

[02:35:32] [SPEAKER_03]: You not doubt the ability of people to believe exactly what they need to believe

[02:35:37] [SPEAKER_03]: to move forward, right?

[02:35:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Seriously, again, I'm going to bring back Mrs. Davis

[02:35:40] [SPEAKER_03]: because I watched it recently and I love it again.

[02:35:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Is this idea of I don't tell people the truth.

[02:35:45] [SPEAKER_03]: I tell people what they want to hear to hear. Yep.

[02:35:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think people tell themselves what they want to hear all the time.

[02:35:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, and unfortunately, there were four eyewitnesses

[02:35:55] [SPEAKER_04]: to during the third's courageous demise.

[02:35:59] [SPEAKER_04]: One is the son in question.

[02:36:01] [SPEAKER_04]: So his opinion doesn't count.

[02:36:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Two is his wife, so she's out on suspicion.

[02:36:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Three is during the fourth's best friend, Narvi.

[02:36:12] [SPEAKER_04]: So again, questionable.

[02:36:14] [SPEAKER_04]: And then there's this fourth door who comes along like the last minute.

[02:36:17] [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't know who he is and what his position is and so forth.

[02:36:20] [SPEAKER_04]: But, you know, you if he is in favor of during the fourth,

[02:36:25] [SPEAKER_04]: he's just one voice and can easily be discounted.

[02:36:29] [SPEAKER_04]: If Durin's brother, who we don't even know the name of yet,

[02:36:33] [SPEAKER_04]: decides he wants to try for a palace coup.

[02:36:39] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm trying to find this episode of the original

[02:36:45] [SPEAKER_06]: series of Star Trek where there was like an evil alien entity

[02:36:49] [SPEAKER_06]: that trapped some Klingons on the enterprise

[02:36:52] [SPEAKER_06]: and they all were fighting with swords and stuff like that.

[02:36:55] [SPEAKER_06]: And this idea that this this entity fed on their conflict.

[02:37:00] [SPEAKER_06]: And so it created conditions where they had to be in conflict.

[02:37:06] [SPEAKER_04]: I have a memory of that.

[02:37:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't have any visual memories of it, but I think it ended with

[02:37:12] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, Kirk standing next to an oversized thing on Captain.

[02:37:16] [SPEAKER_04]: And they were, oh, yes.

[02:37:18] [SPEAKER_04]: And each other on the back.

[02:37:19] [SPEAKER_06]: That was it. That was the one.

[02:37:20] [SPEAKER_04]: That's about all I remember from that episode.

[02:37:23] [SPEAKER_03]: There's kind of a similar concept in the wheel of time,

[02:37:25] [SPEAKER_03]: but it's way late spoiler.

[02:37:26] [SPEAKER_03]: So I can't go into it because some people will be joining us

[02:37:30] [SPEAKER_03]: for future Wheel of Time coverage.

[02:37:32] [SPEAKER_04]: All right, keep your secrets.

[02:37:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I've overused it tonight.

[02:37:36] [SPEAKER_03]: And also I don't think it applies to the Wheel of Time.

[02:37:38] [SPEAKER_03]: We got a we got a better line for that one.

[02:37:41] [SPEAKER_06]: So Durin's brother is that we're off book here, obviously,

[02:37:46] [SPEAKER_06]: with there's a line.

[02:37:47] [SPEAKER_03]: They all I'm sure that there's well, OK.

[02:37:50] [SPEAKER_03]: So Marilyn, do you want to go into the line of door thing?

[02:37:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Because you were the one who mentioned last night

[02:37:53] [SPEAKER_03]: that it's not quite well.

[02:37:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm I'm really foggy on it and I haven't looked it up recently.

[02:37:58] [SPEAKER_04]: So I all I believe they give us is the line of the actual rulers.

[02:38:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. And I don't remember how many.

[02:38:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Siblings, any of them had, I'm not even sure that it's noted anywhere.

[02:38:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I do know that in the lore, it's Durin the sixth

[02:38:15] [SPEAKER_04]: who wakes up the Balrog.

[02:38:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because it's in the third age.

[02:38:19] [SPEAKER_03]: So so look, I think the problem is

[02:38:22] [SPEAKER_03]: we're dealing with annals, essentially. Right.

[02:38:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And so you're not going to have Jeb Bush in the annals, right?

[02:38:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Like he's just not going to make it.

[02:38:30] [SPEAKER_03]: So you're not going to have Doran's brother in the annals if.

[02:38:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And again, like we we are playing around with like who's around here

[02:38:38] [SPEAKER_03]: or who which generation is this.

[02:38:40] [SPEAKER_03]: So yes, it is I would say it's made up,

[02:38:42] [SPEAKER_03]: but it's possible that he had a brother, right?

[02:38:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, of course, probably did have a brother, right?

[02:38:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Doran's have families.

[02:38:49] [SPEAKER_04]: No, particularly when they're, you know, of the royal line.

[02:38:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[02:38:53] [SPEAKER_04]: You can have an heir and a spare.

[02:38:56] [SPEAKER_06]: I guess the only thing that I was

[02:38:58] [SPEAKER_06]: not struggling with, but it just kind of hitched me up a second was

[02:39:02] [SPEAKER_06]: oh, you can immediately drop that in at this late stage

[02:39:06] [SPEAKER_06]: so that it sort of has maximum impact

[02:39:08] [SPEAKER_06]: as opposed to letting us know,

[02:39:11] [SPEAKER_06]: you know, earlier on with the conflict.

[02:39:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, Dees is like, oh, you know,

[02:39:15] [SPEAKER_06]: have you talked to your brother about how your father is acting

[02:39:17] [SPEAKER_03]: and dot it out unless unless they're not close at all.

[02:39:21] [SPEAKER_04]: True. They did mention the brother.

[02:39:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it was the end of season one where Deesus says

[02:39:26] [SPEAKER_04]: your brother is not going to go out of that crown.

[02:39:29] [SPEAKER_04]: You are. Oh, OK.

[02:39:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, memory.

[02:39:31] [SPEAKER_04]: There has been one drop of the brother.

[02:39:33] [SPEAKER_04]: OK. Yeah.

[02:39:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think just the act of disinheriting Doran

[02:39:38] [SPEAKER_03]: probably probably implies there's a backup, right?

[02:39:40] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm OK with that.

[02:39:42] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, like I said, it was just a little minor hitch.

[02:39:44] [SPEAKER_06]: And then of course we have another mystery brother,

[02:39:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Isildur's mystery brother.

[02:39:49] [SPEAKER_03]: He's been named after a lot this season.

[02:39:51] [SPEAKER_06]: He has, but I'm just saying he's there.

[02:39:52] [SPEAKER_06]: There's this like, oh, there's this brother out there

[02:39:54] [SPEAKER_06]: floating around somewhere.

[02:39:56] [SPEAKER_04]: And I hope we meet him next season.

[02:39:58] [SPEAKER_03]: They're like, we didn't have the budget for this season.

[02:40:02] [SPEAKER_06]: How's the dragon did the same thing with?

[02:40:04] [SPEAKER_06]: What's your name, son?

[02:40:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Daron. Yeah, who's down in the south.

[02:40:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Which is funny.

[02:40:07] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a Darren in House of the Dragon and there's Dairon,

[02:40:10] [SPEAKER_03]: which is spelled exactly the same,

[02:40:13] [SPEAKER_03]: but it's a completely different pronunciation in Tolkien.

[02:40:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And he was named after this season by Kearnan.

[02:40:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Remember, he was trying to talk about like authors

[02:40:21] [SPEAKER_03]: and whether the author was working.

[02:40:23] [SPEAKER_03]: He goes, Dairon insufferable.

[02:40:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[02:40:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, he was a tattletale.

[02:40:29] [SPEAKER_03]: He was a tattletale.

[02:40:31] [SPEAKER_03]: David, I'm making you come on the podcast with me

[02:40:33] [SPEAKER_03]: and Anthony when we talk about Bert and Luthien.

[02:40:35] [SPEAKER_03]: So you'll you'll read all about Dairon.

[02:40:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Sounds good. I mean, I'm down for it.

[02:40:41] [SPEAKER_03]: All right. Let's close out this season.

[02:40:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, Day of the Dove.

[02:40:44] [SPEAKER_06]: That's the episode of the with the Klingons.

[02:40:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Right. Right.

[02:40:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Seventh episode of the third season.

[02:40:50] [SPEAKER_06]: So anyway, we can move on.

[02:40:51] [SPEAKER_06]: We don't have to dwell on that.

[02:40:53] [SPEAKER_03]: A valley sanctuary.

[02:40:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Here we go.

[02:40:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Galadriel wakes next to Gilgallad,

[02:40:58] [SPEAKER_03]: who makes a snarky comment before Elrond tells her

[02:41:01] [SPEAKER_03]: they are in a sanctuary protected by the Elven rings.

[02:41:04] [SPEAKER_03]: He gives her Nenya back before Elrondir comes in

[02:41:08] [SPEAKER_03]: to ask for their decision over whether to use the sword

[02:41:11] [SPEAKER_03]: or the shield against Sauron.

[02:41:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Galadriel suggests they follow the words of Killa Brimbor

[02:41:17] [SPEAKER_03]: and seek light instead of power.

[02:41:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Gilgallad raises his sword and the survivors of Oregion cheer

[02:41:23] [SPEAKER_03]: for the final shot pose of the four named characters on a cliff.

[02:41:29] [SPEAKER_06]: How do we feel about the the final thing?

[02:41:32] [SPEAKER_06]: I got feels.

[02:41:34] [SPEAKER_03]: No, no, no.

[02:41:37] [SPEAKER_03]: You know why? Because they just did this with Wheel of Time.

[02:41:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And then I also criticized it like, all right, cheesy everybody.

[02:41:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody we know is on a tower and we're all going to look out

[02:41:48] [SPEAKER_06]: with the dragon in the sky and make sure everybody poses.

[02:41:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And now they do this.

[02:41:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm and also I was kind of bothered that they were like the sword of the shield

[02:41:56] [SPEAKER_03]: and like clearly they're following Galadriel's advice

[02:41:59] [SPEAKER_03]: and going with the light instead of the sword, right?

[02:42:01] [SPEAKER_03]: But then he raises the sword.

[02:42:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. And that was a very nice messaging

[02:42:05] [SPEAKER_04]: that I thought that part too, John, no, I didn't see Wheel of Time

[02:42:09] [SPEAKER_04]: so I have no idea what the other thing was.

[02:42:11] [SPEAKER_04]: But in terms of a set scene, I thought it was I thought it was decent.

[02:42:16] [SPEAKER_04]: I was content that they're they're finishing up what they can.

[02:42:25] [SPEAKER_04]: And reiterating, you know, as Kilimanjaro said,

[02:42:28] [SPEAKER_04]: it is not strength that overcomes darkness but light in the sun yet shines.

[02:42:32] [SPEAKER_04]: This is so much of a better message than sometimes to find the light

[02:42:36] [SPEAKER_04]: you must first touch the darkness.

[02:42:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. So I really like that we're getting away from that now.

[02:42:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you very much, you know, been there, done that,

[02:42:43] [SPEAKER_04]: had that workout for you and not so great.

[02:42:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. Let's see what we can do in the other direction now.

[02:42:49] [SPEAKER_04]: So I see this as Galadriel starting to move more towards

[02:42:56] [SPEAKER_04]: what people might think of as book Galadriel.

[02:42:59] [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, this also upholds the possibility of my favorite scenario

[02:43:02] [SPEAKER_04]: and my own head canon, which is a rendezvous going to take Galadriel

[02:43:06] [SPEAKER_04]: back with him to Lord to Greenwood.

[02:43:09] [SPEAKER_04]: And along the way, she's going to stop in Laurian and oh, by the way,

[02:43:13] [SPEAKER_04]: maybe even find in Kelleborn and a certain Elf woman.

[02:43:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's fine to talk about this because it's non canon.

[02:43:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Like this is all going to be made up if we see this.

[02:43:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, everything except Kelleborn.

[02:43:28] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, he isn't made up.

[02:43:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I just mean while finding him is made up.

[02:43:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Fair point. He wasn't lost in the books.

[02:43:35] [SPEAKER_04]: No, she knew where he was all the time,

[02:43:38] [SPEAKER_04]: not to mention another character who I really, really,

[02:43:41] [SPEAKER_04]: really hope that we see in three.

[02:43:44] [SPEAKER_03]: We are going to meet Kelleborn and he's going to say,

[02:43:47] [SPEAKER_03]: tell me, where is Gandalf?

[02:43:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Tell me, where is Grand Elf?

[02:43:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I must desire to speak with him.

[02:43:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's hope.

[02:43:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, they're certainly seeding this idea of these sanctuaries made by the rings.

[02:43:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. Exactly. Yeah.

[02:44:00] [SPEAKER_04]: And it was kind of weird that Kyradan wasn't included at all.

[02:44:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And he's still got the other ring.

[02:44:07] [SPEAKER_03]: He's right when they're saying this is protected by the Elven rings.

[02:44:10] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, OK, well, two out of three.

[02:44:12] [SPEAKER_04]: So, OK, we need to protect that harbors.

[02:44:14] [SPEAKER_04]: So good, good on Kyradan for being there.

[02:44:16] [SPEAKER_04]: But what I want to know is where the heck are the rest of the armies from Lindon?

[02:44:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Are they still marching down the mortuary?

[02:44:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, sailing, I would assume they would have sailing down the mortuary.

[02:44:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, maybe they'll show up in Pilar gear.

[02:44:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.

[02:44:30] [SPEAKER_04]: They are going to sail up the Anduin and, you know, what that was a little unclear to me.

[02:44:36] [SPEAKER_06]: So. Mm hmm.

[02:44:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I hope we see Ben Daniels a little bit more in season three.

[02:44:41] [SPEAKER_04]: I couldn't agree more.

[02:44:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I think we will.

[02:44:42] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, he was in an interview with the vampire season two heavily.

[02:44:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was so delighted.

[02:44:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I've seen him in so many things I like lately.

[02:44:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[02:44:49] [SPEAKER_03]: He's a great actor.

[02:44:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. And we enjoyed all the foundation foundation foundation.

[02:44:55] [SPEAKER_04]: That was where I first really saw him and yeah, me too.

[02:44:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Fell in there with him.

[02:44:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I saw him there.

[02:44:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Then I saw him here and then an interview with the vampire.

[02:45:01] [SPEAKER_03]: So he's going to be he's going to be all over my discussions of top shows

[02:45:04] [SPEAKER_03]: of the year later in the year.

[02:45:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Foundation should be out next year.

[02:45:09] [SPEAKER_06]: It's cool.

[02:45:10] [SPEAKER_06]: The internet speculation says that it's that season season.

[02:45:16] [SPEAKER_06]: The filming is wrapped in that it's going to be released in 2025.

[02:45:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, cool. Cool.

[02:45:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Hopefully it's for a year next year.

[02:45:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. And this this year was a cake walk.

[02:45:26] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, yeah.

[02:45:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Last of us and or severance, white lotus foundation,

[02:45:33] [SPEAKER_06]: wheel of time, alien earth.

[02:45:35] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, just to name a few.

[02:45:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. I don't want to talk about it yet.

[02:45:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I know what I'm like.

[02:45:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm brazen.

[02:45:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm I'm not.

[02:45:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to talk about that yet.

[02:45:43] [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm guessing that we're saving our season wrap in.

[02:45:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. Yes.

[02:45:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Next time.

[02:45:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Season wrap up podcast.

[02:45:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Is there anything that you guys want to observe about this episode?

[02:45:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I would just say.

[02:45:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I did really like the episode.

[02:45:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm nitpicking this entire time.

[02:46:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think the problem is once you break my immersion once in a show like this,

[02:46:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I will start nitpicking.

[02:46:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And this show, this episode did break my immersion with Peter Jackson stuff

[02:46:11] [SPEAKER_03]: in a way that none of the other episodes did.

[02:46:14] [SPEAKER_04]: I think I agree with you, John.

[02:46:15] [SPEAKER_04]: That just seemed to be so many times.

[02:46:18] [SPEAKER_04]: And and I think it was just me.

[02:46:22] [SPEAKER_04]: I said this before, but really wanting to see Elendil

[02:46:27] [SPEAKER_04]: come into his own as his own character.

[02:46:31] [SPEAKER_04]: And to have him imitate Aragorn to gestures and looks.

[02:46:37] [SPEAKER_04]: And the whole thing with the presentation of not still, I just

[02:46:40] [SPEAKER_04]: was really sad.

[02:46:41] [SPEAKER_04]: I said, this is a must opportunity now.

[02:46:44] [SPEAKER_03]: It's also we're dealing with mythic figures, right?

[02:46:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's that's a problem.

[02:46:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Like there's a reason.

[02:46:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Sure.

[02:46:50] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a reason in the wheel of time they use this age of legends as this backdrop.

[02:46:54] [SPEAKER_03]: But you never really see it much.

[02:46:55] [SPEAKER_03]: You see like a couple of visions of it.

[02:46:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And there's a reason for that is that these people were mythic.

[02:47:01] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think it would be taking away from their legend to meet them, right?

[02:47:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Never meet your heroes.

[02:47:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, absolutely.

[02:47:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And here we are meeting our heroes.

[02:47:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's it's difficult.

[02:47:12] [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't envy the showrunners doing that.

[02:47:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. No, that's true.

[02:47:16] [SPEAKER_04]: That's true.

[02:47:17] [SPEAKER_04]: I get that.

[02:47:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Just they had developed his character so much as an independent person.

[02:47:22] [SPEAKER_04]: And then at this pivotal moment, he's suddenly, I don't know,

[02:47:27] [SPEAKER_04]: swung into the line of the line of a lindill.

[02:47:30] [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, he'll have plenty of time to do things that we haven't seen anything

[02:47:36] [SPEAKER_04]: about. So right.

[02:47:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I think I think they are on a good track now to have him forge

[02:47:41] [SPEAKER_03]: his own identity going forward.

[02:47:42] [SPEAKER_04]: I agree. I agree.

[02:47:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Particularly as a father.

[02:47:46] [SPEAKER_03]: What does your cat have to say, David?

[02:47:48] [SPEAKER_04]: She says, pet me.

[02:47:49] [SPEAKER_06]: She says, why are you ignoring me?

[02:47:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Why are you?

[02:47:52] [SPEAKER_06]: Why are you sitting there flapping your your gums and why are you talking

[02:47:56] [SPEAKER_03]: to someone who doesn't look like psychopaths to animals?

[02:48:00] [SPEAKER_03]: We're just sitting there talking to an inanimate object.

[02:48:03] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[02:48:04] [SPEAKER_06]: Why are you?

[02:48:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Why are you clickety clacking on that thing and not using those fingers to pet me?

[02:48:11] [SPEAKER_03]: So any any thoughts for you, David?

[02:48:13] [SPEAKER_06]: I think I covered it at the beginning where I think they over salted, you know,

[02:48:20] [SPEAKER_06]: or if you want to use your pancake metaphor, that the batter wasn't stirred.

[02:48:24] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm trying to be mindful of not straying over into seasonal reflections.

[02:48:31] [SPEAKER_06]: They had a lot to do in this episode.

[02:48:34] [SPEAKER_06]: There's a lot of they had to wrap up a lot of story lines.

[02:48:38] [SPEAKER_06]: They had not a lot of time to do it in.

[02:48:40] [SPEAKER_06]: So they had a lot of content that they had to compress but also stretch

[02:48:45] [SPEAKER_06]: because there were definitely scenes in this episode that just seemed to kind

[02:48:49] [SPEAKER_06]: of go on a little bit too long.

[02:48:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Like that fight scene was pretty long between Gladred and Salron.

[02:48:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I agree.

[02:48:56] [SPEAKER_06]: And they could have chopped the back third of it off.

[02:49:01] [SPEAKER_03]: And Morphid wanted to fight.

[02:49:04] [SPEAKER_03]: So she let her fight.

[02:49:05] [SPEAKER_04]: She got to chop any parts of Morphid off.

[02:49:08] [SPEAKER_03]: No.

[02:49:10] [SPEAKER_06]: So, you know, it was.

[02:49:13] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think, you know, like you said, John, you know, once once you break that

[02:49:18] [SPEAKER_06]: immersion, then we start to become aware of all of the little things

[02:49:23] [SPEAKER_06]: that that bother us and sort of are like, well, I don't think, you know,

[02:49:27] [SPEAKER_06]: and it's very easy to go down that road and but still maintain a critique,

[02:49:33] [SPEAKER_06]: you know, good, good healthy critique of it.

[02:49:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it was just a lot.

[02:49:37] [SPEAKER_06]: They had a lot to do in this episode.

[02:49:38] [SPEAKER_06]: And maybe it just got a little a little bit of the best of them.

[02:49:43] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think I think, too, they started off with a perfect opening.

[02:49:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I was so raptured by that opening of this is terrific.

[02:49:53] [SPEAKER_04]: And then, you know, it went along and there was some great stuff

[02:49:56] [SPEAKER_04]: and there was a lot of jarring stuff.

[02:49:59] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think I think for me, it was a bumpy ride.

[02:50:05] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's kind of why that the sort of uneven feeling.

[02:50:08] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, right. Right.

[02:50:10] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, difficult task as you were saying, John, very difficult.

[02:50:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. I mean, I just want to say, I think they learned at the point.

[02:50:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I am really excited for three.

[02:50:20] [SPEAKER_03]: I agree. I think it's going to be a great next season.

[02:50:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I think they've learned a lot, especially since I know Marilyn,

[02:50:24] [SPEAKER_03]: you pointed out they really did do most of this filming

[02:50:27] [SPEAKER_03]: prior to the airing where they did most of the writing rather

[02:50:30] [SPEAKER_03]: prior to the airing of season one.

[02:50:32] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think they didn't really have a chance to take lessons learned from

[02:50:35] [SPEAKER_03]: that and they still vastly improved.

[02:50:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I think not just us, but the whole audience has really turned around

[02:50:42] [SPEAKER_03]: on the show, which is great.

[02:50:44] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[02:50:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And we still get like some nasty comments on our YouTube sometimes saying,

[02:50:49] [SPEAKER_03]: like, you know, don't like the show.

[02:50:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And we're like, well, we're going to like the show if we like it.

[02:50:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I seriously.

[02:50:55] [SPEAKER_03]: But and I see, you know, there's always going to be that toxic part

[02:50:58] [SPEAKER_03]: of the fandom that doesn't want anybody to enjoy it or or a toxic

[02:51:01] [SPEAKER_03]: part of the fandom that wants everybody to enjoy it when they don't.

[02:51:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. And that's the two sides of the same coin is like just.

[02:51:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Sure. You don't have to yuck.

[02:51:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Somebody's young or young somebody's young.

[02:51:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, exactly.

[02:51:12] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think overall I'm really satisfied with the season.

[02:51:16] [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to talk about that on the finale podcast.

[02:51:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't have anything else to add.

[02:51:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Does anybody else know?

[02:51:22] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think I'm good.

[02:51:23] [SPEAKER_06]: We have a lower cast record now.

[02:51:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. So.

[02:51:28] [SPEAKER_03]: All right.

[02:51:28] [SPEAKER_03]: So this is now a three hour podcast.

[02:51:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Can I just make that clear?

[02:51:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I saw that three hour finale podcast.

[02:51:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I saw that.

[02:51:34] [SPEAKER_03]: That threshold.

[02:51:34] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a good thing we've got.

[02:51:35] [SPEAKER_04]: There was a lot of good stuff in this episode, right?

[02:51:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I hope we didn't complain too much.

[02:51:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I really do. Like I'm a little concerned now.

[02:51:43] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, but it goes to I'll put a

[02:51:47] [SPEAKER_06]: at least my final thought on that on the question of critique versus criticism.

[02:51:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Right. We're trying to be

[02:51:56] [SPEAKER_06]: we're trying to critique and not just throw stones like we're trying

[02:51:59] [SPEAKER_06]: to approach it thoughtfully. Right.

[02:52:02] [SPEAKER_06]: And something that I think is true about human beings is that we don't complain

[02:52:06] [SPEAKER_06]: about things that we don't care about.

[02:52:08] [SPEAKER_06]: You don't hear me complaining about the NFL because I don't care about it.

[02:52:12] [SPEAKER_06]: What do I complain about?

[02:52:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Traffic and and pedestrian safety.

[02:52:17] [SPEAKER_06]: Like if you're going to hear me harp on something and get on a soapbox,

[02:52:19] [SPEAKER_06]: that's a topic that really I'm really yes.

[02:52:22] [SPEAKER_06]: I've not heard this before.

[02:52:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah. I've spared you all.

[02:52:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you for that.

[02:52:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Yes. But you know, because we when we care about something,

[02:52:31] [SPEAKER_06]: we're vested in it and we're going to, you know, have thoughts and feelings.

[02:52:35] [SPEAKER_06]: And when our thoughts and feelings aren't

[02:52:38] [SPEAKER_06]: when our expectations are thwarted or we're let down a little bit,

[02:52:42] [SPEAKER_06]: then it's going to evoke a reaction.

[02:52:44] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think we can we have invested in the season

[02:52:49] [SPEAKER_06]: and in Maryland, geez, you know,

[02:52:50] [SPEAKER_06]: good chunk of your career has been invested into the writings of this man.

[02:52:55] [SPEAKER_06]: And you know, John has put in a lot of effort and energy

[02:52:58] [SPEAKER_06]: and we got our whole podcast started because of Tolkien.

[02:53:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. And because of this show, to be clear,

[02:53:05] [SPEAKER_03]: like we have our podcast started on the show.

[02:53:08] [SPEAKER_06]: Yep. So we we care about this content

[02:53:10] [SPEAKER_06]: and we want this show to be a success.

[02:53:14] [SPEAKER_06]: And so when it it doesn't quite meet our expectations,

[02:53:18] [SPEAKER_06]: we're going to say something, but I think we're trying to be

[02:53:20] [SPEAKER_06]: professional and courteous about it, right?

[02:53:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. So good, not great episode.

[02:53:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think a great season.

[02:53:28] [SPEAKER_03]: OK, and let's talk about it on the season wrap.

[02:53:31] [SPEAKER_03]: But for now, let's talk about what's coming next.

[02:53:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Send in your feedback.

[02:53:35] [SPEAKER_06]: L O T R at the Lorehounds dot com.

[02:53:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Voice mail please are highly encouraged.

[02:53:41] [SPEAKER_06]: And on the discord, we have a channel there for everyone to

[02:53:46] [SPEAKER_06]: share their thoughts.

[02:53:48] [SPEAKER_06]: What is coming up, John?

[02:53:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you've got a lot of stuff, actually.

[02:53:55] [SPEAKER_03]: More Agatha all along is, of course, coming.

[02:53:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I know Aaron just put out a new

[02:54:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Fallout Lore episode.

[02:54:03] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's very exciting.

[02:54:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Also, probably Howard surprised, dropped a Penguin episode.

[02:54:08] [SPEAKER_03]: They just reviewed the first episode of the Penguin.

[02:54:11] [SPEAKER_06]: And then seems I have a bone to pick with Anthony and Steve.

[02:54:14] [SPEAKER_06]: They start off the podcast talking about the greatest bald actor.

[02:54:18] [SPEAKER_06]: I heard that.

[02:54:19] [SPEAKER_06]: So they had this whole conversation like,

[02:54:21] [SPEAKER_06]: what are the parameters of that statement and all that kind of stuff?

[02:54:24] [SPEAKER_06]: And Anthony and Steve, you did not talk about Teli Savales.

[02:54:28] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think you did a huge, that's a major miss, major, major miss.

[02:54:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway, that's my beef moving on.

[02:54:36] [SPEAKER_03]: OK.

[02:54:38] [SPEAKER_06]: But it's a great episode.

[02:54:39] [SPEAKER_06]: It's very funny.

[02:54:40] [SPEAKER_06]: It's classic Steve and Anthony talking about stuff.

[02:54:44] [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah.

[02:54:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And Alicia has been away, but I think she's going to get out soon

[02:54:47] [SPEAKER_03]: for our subscribers, our recurring subscribers,

[02:54:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Prey, our 11 Zs for September.

[02:54:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Then yeah, plenty more subscriber stuff happening on, you know,

[02:54:58] [SPEAKER_03]: there will be a second breakfast this month.

[02:55:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And I just want to, you know, a lot of people who put on put on your future

[02:55:05] [SPEAKER_06]: radars, Silo is coming back.

[02:55:08] [SPEAKER_06]: So Alicia's going to be covering that with Luke on the Walshift Dust feed.

[02:55:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Linking and they got screeners.

[02:55:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Nice. Good job.

[02:55:15] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, you didn't know that?

[02:55:16] [SPEAKER_06]: I did, but I'm giving you the good job because you're the, you are your screener.

[02:55:20] [SPEAKER_06]: I was like, you got screeners too, you know, you get screener wrangler or screener wrangler.

[02:55:25] [SPEAKER_06]: And then Dune prophecy in November, I'll be covering that.

[02:55:31] [SPEAKER_06]: And Alicia will be joining me.

[02:55:33] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think we're going to try and get out some penguin, some penguin here and there.

[02:55:38] [SPEAKER_06]: We might do a episode two and three podcast because we're kind of waiting

[02:55:41] [SPEAKER_06]: for Alicia to come back and then be done with rings of power.

[02:55:45] [SPEAKER_06]: So our my schedule will be a little bit lighter.

[02:55:48] [SPEAKER_06]: And then we've got lots of festivity.

[02:55:50] [SPEAKER_06]: October, we're covering all the Poltergeist movies.

[02:55:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[02:55:55] [SPEAKER_06]: And then in December, we're going to have a whole bunch of stuff going on too.

[02:55:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. And I have, I have a side project that will be on Lorhound stuff too,

[02:56:02] [SPEAKER_03]: but yeah, I have another side project I'm working on in secret.

[02:56:05] [SPEAKER_03]: So stay tuned for that.

[02:56:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And I know a lot of people tune out for season wraps and they, you know, come back.

[02:56:11] [SPEAKER_03]: So I just want to thank everyone for being with us this season.

[02:56:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Whether you stick around or not, we are always covering something.

[02:56:20] [SPEAKER_03]: We got a lot of content.

[02:56:21] [SPEAKER_03]: If you've seen, if you didn't come back since rings of power season one,

[02:56:24] [SPEAKER_03]: we got like 300 episodes for you.

[02:56:26] [SPEAKER_03]: So welcome back or welcome to the Lorhound family.

[02:56:30] [SPEAKER_03]: We're happy to have you and we hope you'll stick around for future coverage.

[02:56:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Definitely. And of course, you can even stick around if you are subscribers

[02:56:37] [SPEAKER_04]: because there is one more low cast on the way. Absolutely.

[02:56:40] [SPEAKER_03]: It is true.

[02:56:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And for the public, we will be doing a season wrap up that will have feedback.

[02:56:46] [SPEAKER_03]: It will have Mark from Never Mind the Music to talk about his

[02:56:51] [SPEAKER_03]: musical project for this season.

[02:56:53] [SPEAKER_03]: It's very, it's going to be very cool.

[02:56:55] [SPEAKER_06]: It's very clever.

[02:56:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And then don't forget, we're doing that live show that I mentioned earlier.

[02:56:59] [SPEAKER_03]: You can find the link in the show notes if you want to sign up for that.

[02:57:03] [SPEAKER_03]: One more affiliate that I didn't mention was Never Mind the Music.

[02:57:06] [SPEAKER_03]: I was trying to pull up their episode name before I got to it.

[02:57:11] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's a sidetrack this week on why Nicole is a fan of grief.

[02:57:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And I plugged it earlier.

[02:57:16] [SPEAKER_03]: So I didn't see that one. I described that.

[02:57:17] [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe that's what I was. OK.

[02:57:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no. Yeah, that came out today. Oh, OK.

[02:57:21] [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't see it. I've been.

[02:57:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I haven't been looking at my podcast with this today.

[02:57:25] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'll have to go and do it on the way to work today. It was lovely.

[02:57:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Very cool.

[02:57:29] [SPEAKER_04]: And for those of you who are wondering about another affiliate

[02:57:32] [SPEAKER_04]: show called Rings and Rituals.

[02:57:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yeah. What? Yeah, there's some show with a couple of Tolkien scholars talking.

[02:57:37] [SPEAKER_06]: That's traditional. Yeah.

[02:57:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I was thinking things that are coming, but now, yeah, plug that.

[02:57:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it'll be coming, but probably not for a year or so.

[02:57:46] [SPEAKER_04]: So if you don't hear anything and afraid it's gone away, it hasn't gone away.

[02:57:50] [SPEAKER_04]: We just need to let everything settle for a while and think about stuff

[02:57:54] [SPEAKER_04]: and let it marinate and, you know, both of us having

[02:57:58] [SPEAKER_04]: a variety of scholarly and other types of things going on.

[02:58:01] [SPEAKER_04]: But it will happen.

[02:58:02] [SPEAKER_04]: We just don't have a specific date yet as to when it will start happening again.

[02:58:06] [SPEAKER_06]: But have you chatted with Sarah?

[02:58:09] [SPEAKER_04]: A little bit, a little bit.

[02:58:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we're both clear that, yes, this is going to happen.

[02:58:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Great question.

[02:58:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you so much for doing it because it is such a great additive to the.

[02:58:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I'm really glad.

[02:58:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's just a lot of fun.

[02:58:20] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, and I was this time I was taking notes about all the rituals.

[02:58:23] [SPEAKER_04]: There were a lot of rituals in season two, guys.

[02:58:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Come on. Right in with your rituals.

[02:58:28] [SPEAKER_06]: Rings and rituals at theLorhounds.com.

[02:58:30] [SPEAKER_03]: How about the stabbing your leader ritual, the mutiny ritual?

[02:58:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I haven't twice this season.

[02:58:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Sure did. The orcs, they love it.

[02:58:38] [SPEAKER_04]: It was the alpha and the omega of season two.

[02:58:42] [SPEAKER_03]: All right, we got out of here.

[02:58:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I think we should get out of here.

[02:58:45] [SPEAKER_03]: David, hit me with the thank yous.

[02:58:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Discord server boosters, the folks that donate their,

[02:58:53] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know what nitro bits.

[02:58:55] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know what they're called to our server to make it a little bit better.

[02:58:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I think they're called server boosts.

[02:58:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Server boosts. Thank you for your boosts.

[02:59:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, Narls, Aaron Kay, Tiller the Thriller, Dork of the Ninjas,

[02:59:07] [SPEAKER_06]: do 71 captain, Jinji 56, Athena, Agilea,

[02:59:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Adrienne, Tina, Lestu, Nancy M and Ghost of Partition.

[02:59:15] [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you for making a better place for our community to gather.

[02:59:19] [SPEAKER_06]: If you're interested, we have a really great Discord.

[02:59:22] [SPEAKER_06]: We've got channels for all the different things.

[02:59:23] [SPEAKER_06]: We've got a really great mod team that helps keep the server

[02:59:26] [SPEAKER_06]: in good working operating order.

[02:59:29] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's just a great place to have that water cooler third place

[02:59:36] [SPEAKER_06]: to interact with other human beings and to talk about the shows

[02:59:41] [SPEAKER_06]: and things that we love.

[02:59:43] [SPEAKER_06]: All of our affiliates have their own channels and everything.

[02:59:45] [SPEAKER_06]: So if you've got comments, jump in.

[02:59:47] [SPEAKER_06]: To our lore masters, our top tier subscribers who are the cornerstone

[02:59:51] [SPEAKER_06]: of our podcasting empire.

[02:59:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Summarshan Michael G. Michelle E.

[02:59:57] [SPEAKER_06]: David W. Brian P. S.C. Peter OH, Bettina W.

[03:00:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Adam S. Nancy M. Dove 71.

[03:00:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Brian 8063. Frederick H. Sarah L.

[03:00:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Gareth C. Eric F. Matthew M. Sarah M.

[03:00:12] [SPEAKER_06]: DJ Miwa. Andra B. Kwon New.

[03:00:15] [SPEAKER_06]: Dead Eye, Jedi Bob. Nathan T. Alex V.

[03:00:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Aaron T. Sub-Zero. Aaron Kay.

[03:00:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Dali V. Mothership 61.

[03:00:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Narls.

[03:00:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Kathy W. Lestu. Jeffrey B.

[03:00:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Melissa U. Fossi U. Neil F.

[03:00:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Ben B. Charlotte M.

[03:00:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Scott F. Is that a new name on that list?

[03:00:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I added it.

[03:00:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Hey!

[03:00:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you, Scott.

[03:00:40] [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks for joining the ranks of your fellow lore masters

[03:00:44] [SPEAKER_06]: and forever last but never least, Adrienne.

[03:00:49] [SPEAKER_06]: You know, there's so many names on here that have been with us for so long,

[03:00:52] [SPEAKER_06]: all the way back to our, you know, very beginnings.

[03:00:56] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's just really incredible to have the ongoing support of all of these people.

[03:01:02] [SPEAKER_06]: And you guys don't know how much that means to us,

[03:01:06] [SPEAKER_06]: both materially and spiritually.

[03:01:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Our froa and our froya are both grateful to you for sustaining us.

[03:01:14] [SPEAKER_06]: It is no joke because we put a lot of time

[03:01:18] [SPEAKER_06]: and effort into this craft.

[03:01:20] [SPEAKER_06]: We sometimes lose ourselves like poor killer brim bore into the depths of our cast.

[03:01:24] [SPEAKER_03]: We're at three hours and ten minutes, folks.

[03:01:27] [SPEAKER_06]: So thank you really for all of you.

[03:01:30] [SPEAKER_06]: And thank you to all of our season pass holders.

[03:01:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks for joining us on this journey.

[03:01:35] [SPEAKER_06]: You guys have made that a really successful offering.

[03:01:38] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's just such a great, great thing to see when you get those emails

[03:01:42] [SPEAKER_06]: to say, hey, somebody subscribe.

[03:01:44] [SPEAKER_06]: So it means a lot to us.

[03:01:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, indeed.

[03:01:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, thanks, everyone.

[03:01:49] [SPEAKER_03]: We will see you on the season wrap.

[03:01:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Bye bye.