David, John, and Marilyn are joined by Mark from Nevermind the Music to talk all things Rings of Power Season 2! They start off with their overall thoughts before playing a musical game show. Then, they talk deep lore with the help of listener feedback.
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[00:00:00] Wünschst du dir jemanden, der dich versteht wie kein anderer? Jemand, der deine Wünsche wahr werden lässt und mit dir das schönste Abenteuer deines Lebens erleben möchte?
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[00:00:56] Nicole, hast du schon mal gesehen, wie das Sign von Ace of Base hat wirklich strange Gehtänderungen?
[00:01:01] Ich habe nicht, Marc. Ich bin eine richtige Person.
[00:01:03] Na, lass mich dir erzählen. Ich werde dich über Neuroscience-Gobbledegug sagen lassen.
[00:01:07] Ja, ich dachte, du wirst nie fragen.
[00:01:09] Das ist die Nevermind der Musik Podcast.
[00:01:11] Wo eine Psychologie und eine Musiker.
[00:01:13] Und eine Musiker.
[00:01:13] Dive in die Songs du lief.
[00:01:15] So, du hast du.
[00:01:16] Und du hast viel Zeit, du hast.
[00:01:18] Und du hast viel Zeit, du hast du.
[00:01:20] Und du hast du.
[00:01:20] Und du kannst du.
[00:01:21] Und du kannst du.
[00:01:21] Die Crossroads.
[00:01:22] Ist es die Crossroads oder die Crossroads?
[00:01:25] Save es für den episode, Marc.
[00:01:27] Listen to Nevermind der Musik.
[00:01:28] Wherever du get your podcasts.
[00:01:51] Willkommen zu den Rings of Power Podcast.
[00:01:53] Wir sind die Lorehounds,
[00:01:54] your guides to Tolkien's world of Middle-Earth.
[00:01:57] Ich bin David.
[00:01:57] Ich bin Jon.
[00:01:58] Und ich bin Marilyn.
[00:02:00] Das ist unsere Season 2 Wrap-Up für Prime Video's Original Series,
[00:02:03] The Lord of the Rings, The Rings of Power.
[00:02:05] In this podcast,
[00:02:06] we're going to play a game of musical trivia
[00:02:09] with our friend Marc from Nevermind the Music.
[00:02:12] Then we're going to be talking about the season as a whole
[00:02:15] using listener feedback as conversation starters.
[00:02:19] The season's over, but if you'd like to still contact us,
[00:02:22] you can send emails to lotr at thelorehounds.com.
[00:02:25] If you want to join our Discord or support the community by subscribing on either Supercast
[00:02:30] or Patreon, check out the link tree in the show notes below.
[00:02:33] If you're not into recurring subscriptions, the last chance to buy the season pass where you can pay a flat $10 to get ad-free episodes and the bonus Lorecast podcasts where we dig deeper into the legendarium as well as access to the one guide to rule them all.
[00:02:53] All of our hand-forged visual guide to the season.
[00:02:58] After a couple of weeks, we're going to be disabling the purchases of new season passes, but you can always find all of our premium content with recurring subscriptions on Supercast and Patreon.
[00:03:09] Well, today we've got Marc from Nevermind the Music here to help us play musical trivia.
[00:03:15] Marc, welcome to...
[00:03:18] Is this your first time on the main feed?
[00:03:19] Like other than your promo?
[00:03:22] We had, yeah, we...
[00:03:23] I think so.
[00:03:23] Hi, everybody.
[00:03:24] I'm Marc.
[00:03:25] We had a little episode where we spoke to the three Lorehounds, the Triumvirate, and talked about the podcast a little bit.
[00:03:32] But this is my first time on a regular show and Nicole beat me by what?
[00:03:38] A day?
[00:03:39] Two days?
[00:03:41] Agatha all along with Alicia and John.
[00:03:43] I'm very happy to be here.
[00:03:45] Thanks so much for having me.
[00:03:47] I, like many others, found you all because of the ramp up to the first season of Rings of Power.
[00:03:54] So it's a great honor to be here for that.
[00:03:56] And nice to finally meet Marilyn.
[00:03:58] I feel like maybe we need a podcast with like you, me, Nicole and Anthony where we complain about our deans.
[00:04:04] And talk about getting tenure and complain about students.
[00:04:09] The academic nonsense.
[00:04:11] Yeah, there you go.
[00:04:12] Oh, I have some stories I could tell.
[00:04:14] That's for sure.
[00:04:15] Y'all do.
[00:04:16] If the podcast comes up short, we'll extend.
[00:04:19] Okay.
[00:04:19] But yes, I am one of the creators of Nevermind the Music, which is, I think, yeah, the newest part of the Lorehounds Network.
[00:04:28] Yep.
[00:04:28] And we are a music and pop culture podcast.
[00:04:33] Every main episode, we dissect a popular song sort of, you know, leaning on kind of the recent history, but a lot of 90s and 2000s just because we are who we are.
[00:04:44] And I am a music professor and my co-host Nicole is a psychology professor and I talk about one thing.
[00:04:51] She talks about the other and we try to have fun with it.
[00:04:55] It's not like lecture time so much as it's fun conversation over coffee time.
[00:05:00] And so please welcome all of the all of I'm definitely welcoming all of the people who are going to feel a big hole in their podcast listening schedules after the lack of Rings of Power podcasts.
[00:05:12] To check us out.
[00:05:14] We're only, what are we six episodes in or something like that?
[00:05:18] Yeah, seven.
[00:05:18] Something like that.
[00:05:20] And people please listen and write in.
[00:05:23] People have there's a lively discussion on the discord already.
[00:05:27] But write in, send us emails.
[00:05:29] And I think, you know, one of the reasons Mark that we were excited to invite you to, you know, to be part of the overall network is because the kind of stuff that we cover on our,
[00:05:42] our television and movie and book related stuff, the way that we approach things, the way that we think about things, that's how you and Nicole approach music.
[00:05:51] Yes.
[00:05:51] And so it is a very, if you like what we do on this main feed, you will like what Mark and Nicole do on their feed.
[00:05:58] So go subscribe and listen because the analysis, it's fun.
[00:06:05] You guys are funny together.
[00:06:07] You have a lots of great insights.
[00:06:09] And even if you don't know the song, I don't know that artist.
[00:06:12] I don't know that song.
[00:06:13] It's not the point.
[00:06:14] The point is to listen to you guys have this con this enriching conversation.
[00:06:18] And as one of the boomers in the room, I will say that even though most of the music goes completely over my head, I still enjoy it because it's what you pull out of it.
[00:06:28] That is really interesting.
[00:06:30] And, you know, sometimes I get a beta in reference to keep my classical music persona happy and content and all.
[00:06:36] So, you know, it's great.
[00:06:37] It's really good.
[00:06:38] Yeah.
[00:06:38] Well, I'm really enjoying this, these first few episodes, Mark, I got to say, because I usually take the bus to work on Tuesdays when it comes out.
[00:06:46] So I'm listening and I want to just shout to all my fellow bus goers.
[00:06:50] They should be listening.
[00:06:51] Never mind the music.
[00:06:52] Well, I will.
[00:06:53] I listen to it on my commute.
[00:06:56] And I should say thank you, everybody.
[00:06:58] I appreciate the votes of confidence.
[00:07:01] Marilyn, this week's episode is a Stevie Wonder tune.
[00:07:03] I did see that.
[00:07:04] I don't know if I'll recognize it or not, but you never know.
[00:07:07] It's a big one.
[00:07:08] But even if you don't know the song, you never know where we're going to go because we start talking about.
[00:07:13] Exactly.
[00:07:13] And I wonder we end up talking about illumination studios, animated films.
[00:07:18] So it's definitely not always, you know, I guess it's part of the deal is that's kind of what my college classes are like.
[00:07:25] Sometimes we just go in a direction where the spirit moves us.
[00:07:29] Anyways, happy to be here, everybody.
[00:07:31] Great.
[00:07:31] The episode was full of wonders.
[00:07:33] And so will this one be.
[00:07:36] Mark, you've got a whole slew of ideas for us tonight with this game.
[00:07:41] But before that, I want to get your quick reaction to the season and I want to then go around to everybody.
[00:07:46] So let's start with you as our guest.
[00:07:51] My thoughts on the Rings of Power season two as a whole.
[00:07:54] Yeah, I would.
[00:07:56] I have some thoughts specifically music related, but maybe should I save those for the Lord?
[00:08:00] Save that for a minute.
[00:08:01] Save that for a minute because we're going to do a music topic right after the game.
[00:08:05] Got it.
[00:08:05] Perfect.
[00:08:05] So I would say that in terms of where I am in the room with Tolkien, I may be closest to David, with the exception that I don't know much about filmmaking.
[00:08:16] If I if I couldn't learn it in like a film music class I took as a grad student, I don't know it.
[00:08:21] So I read the Lord of the Rings.
[00:08:24] I think I read the fellowship right up to before the Jackson first Jackson movie came out when I was a teenager late teen.
[00:08:31] Um, and maybe didn't even finish it before the movie came out.
[00:08:35] And then I read the rest of it and was kind of blown away by the I don't know why I didn't see the ending coming at the end of the return of the king but loved it and obviously love the movies like everybody listening certainly does.
[00:08:46] But I have not deep dove.
[00:08:48] I'm following.
[00:08:49] I'm following along on similar alien stories like the rest of you.
[00:08:53] Um, that's all new to me.
[00:08:55] Um, I think this season was a lot stronger than season one.
[00:08:59] I think I probably like season one maybe more than some of you but I did enjoy it.
[00:09:04] But season two, I thought was a lot stronger.
[00:09:06] Um, maybe there were a little too many member berries in some of our last sort of episodes, which honestly though I missed some of them.
[00:09:14] I think like because I haven't seen the two towers in returning.
[00:09:17] I haven't seen the movies in a long enough time that.
[00:09:19] I don't necessarily remember all of the things.
[00:09:22] I think the characters were consistent this season.
[00:09:26] I think they had interesting arcs.
[00:09:28] I felt like emotionally drawn to them.
[00:09:30] I have to say this is a really hot take and I probably shouldn't alienate your your listeners this early in the podcast all about the hot takes on the Lord.
[00:09:38] I kind of like this.
[00:09:40] This Galadriel.
[00:09:41] Oh, I'm doing it.
[00:09:42] This Galadriel.
[00:09:43] There you go.
[00:09:43] You got it.
[00:09:44] More more than the movie one does because the movie one felt like look iconic character.
[00:09:50] But she felt like a mythic character.
[00:09:53] She didn't feel like a person to me.
[00:09:55] She felt like what I would feel like if I were Frodo like this like, oh my God, this almost an angelic being right?
[00:10:01] Yeah.
[00:10:01] And I feel like Galadriel and Sauron.
[00:10:04] These characters have a reality of humanity to them and L fanity.
[00:10:09] I don't know what the term would be to them that this season nails more than the first does.
[00:10:16] They feel more like real people.
[00:10:18] Um, and the pacing for the most part worked for me.
[00:10:22] I, I think one interesting thing because of the crazy music thing that we're about to undertake regards to the show.
[00:10:29] I was paying attention in a much more moment to moment way than I usually do when I'm watching TV.
[00:10:36] Um, not that I've been podcasting about it, but listeners, I've been listening, watching the show, looking for ways to use the music, use music as a manifestation of that show.
[00:10:48] I'll explain that in a few minutes, but it caused me to watch in a more intent way, in a more intense way, actually, that made it kind of more in like engaging experience on some level, even when maybe some other people were seeing, seeing, um, slow moments.
[00:11:04] So I'm hoping I didn't like ruin things for me.
[00:11:06] Like I'm one of those people.
[00:11:06] I can't listen to music while I sleep or whatever.
[00:11:08] Cause I'm too deconstructing every little harmonic movement.
[00:11:12] I hope I didn't just do that to my show watching, but so far it's been really satisfying.
[00:11:16] So I enjoyed my career.
[00:11:17] So, you know, you're in good hands on the big man of air.
[00:11:21] McCreary have been for a long time.
[00:11:23] Um, so yeah, I'll keep it to their, uh, overall successful second season.
[00:11:30] Cool.
[00:11:31] Marilyn, you're up next.
[00:11:33] Yeah.
[00:11:33] Well, I like what Mark said about having the particular lens through which to view it because that was the genesis for my podcast rings and rituals.
[00:11:40] When you are considering the material in a particular light on its own merits, um, a lot of interesting things do emerge.
[00:11:48] I would say overall, this is the eight, this series and particularly the season is showing that this is the age in which the elves learn the meaning of the long defeat.
[00:11:57] And I think I said that before, but as I think it also works as a summation, uh, definitely.
[00:12:03] I find season two better than season one.
[00:12:07] We can't really say that they learned from comments because of course this season was already in the works when season one came out.
[00:12:14] So, not a lot of turnaround time there.
[00:12:18] Um, I'll start with the biggest flops and then go to the good stuff.
[00:12:21] I'm sorry.
[00:12:22] I just couldn't get on board with Grand Elf.
[00:12:24] Um, that whole, I, it's funny cause I enjoyed the stranger.
[00:12:28] I enjoyed his relationship with Nori and then with Poppy.
[00:12:32] I love that all that all along.
[00:12:34] Um, but I just, it, I just was so disappointing to me that they made him Gandalf and I'll explain more why when I get to the way positives.
[00:12:44] Um, I think Arian's character needed more development time.
[00:12:47] She seemed like a new person practically every scene.
[00:12:50] So that was, that was kind of not given enough attention.
[00:12:54] Um, Elendil receiving Narsa was such a disappointment because I wanted to see him have his own reactions.
[00:13:03] Um, and that was one of many examples to my mind in which there were just too many references to Peter Jackson.
[00:13:10] I really hoped that they would cut that apron string and instead they seem to kind of double down on it a lot of times.
[00:13:16] So, okay.
[00:13:18] I mean, if that's their choice, that's their choice.
[00:13:20] Right.
[00:13:20] But, um, the reason why it disappoints me so much is because the very best aspect of season two to my mind was the story of Adar.
[00:13:31] Adar, who was a completely created character, um, you know, had a completely different relationship.
[00:13:39] The podcast, uh, lore cast that David and I did about orcs and Uruks would not have happened if the showrunners had not created Adar.
[00:13:49] Adar and had not given him all the characteristics that he had.
[00:13:52] His whole arc, his ending was so poignant.
[00:13:55] I just did not expect the healing by Narsil, by Nenya.
[00:14:00] And, um, and so short of course, because it was pretty clear that he was not going to last past season two because of the conflict with Saldron.
[00:14:08] And Saldron meets his orc armies and so on and so on.
[00:14:10] Right.
[00:14:11] That kind of brilliance, I wish they could have applied it to all the arcs in the show.
[00:14:18] So, whoever, whoever's responsibility that was props to you because that was beautiful, beautiful myth making and beautiful storytelling.
[00:14:27] Yeah.
[00:14:28] Uh, Bombadil was remarkably successful.
[00:14:31] So again, props to them for having the huevos to go ahead and actually do Bombadil for the first time, something nobody else has ever tried.
[00:14:41] And there will always be people who will say, well, but it doesn't look like my Bombadil.
[00:14:44] And that's the essence of Bombadil.
[00:14:47] But given what it was and given how they used him, I thought they did a really good job with their context.
[00:14:54] Loved Kirdan, want to see more of him, hope I'll see more of him in subsequent seasons.
[00:14:59] I love his contemplative wisdom.
[00:15:03] He is pretty much exactly as I might have envisioned him.
[00:15:07] So yeah, let's get more of that.
[00:15:08] I thought Meryl's arc was great.
[00:15:11] She really increased in depth and gravitas.
[00:15:15] Um, I think we have more good things to look forward to for her.
[00:15:19] Is the older finally growing up?
[00:15:21] Um, the music.
[00:15:22] Oh, the music.
[00:15:23] Yes.
[00:15:24] Um, unfortunately I couldn't pay as close attention to it as I wanted to, but on a rewatch, I think I'm definitely going to try to do that more.
[00:15:30] And the costumes and the props, the, the creatures, all of those things just beautifully accomplished.
[00:15:36] And the rituals also so moving, the, particularly in Numenor, the floating lights of morning, a statue of Nienna.
[00:15:46] That whole scene in sequence, just, just so moving.
[00:15:50] Uh, the relationship between the Dorons also incredibly moving.
[00:15:55] And the final wrap of that whole thing at the opening of episode eight.
[00:15:59] Oh, I was, I was just absolutely over the top with that one.
[00:16:06] Um, I enjoyed Sauron's arc.
[00:16:08] I really did.
[00:16:09] And once I understood what they were doing with it, how long it took, because that answered a lot of questions about why Galadriel was searching for so long in season one and couldn't find him until, until she did.
[00:16:23] Um, and even the light touches, I mean, this one we shall call supper.
[00:16:29] I really, really loved that.
[00:16:31] Um, particularly from a character like a Rondier who doesn't usually give us humor at all.
[00:16:35] So, uh, so yeah, on the whole, definitely better than the first season.
[00:16:39] Lots of things to enjoy a few things that I wish they had done differently, but isn't that always the case?
[00:16:46] Yeah.
[00:16:46] You know, it's something that you and Mark kind of both touched on opposite ends of is, you know, Mark said, Galadriel feels more human and less mythic in this one.
[00:16:56] And you're saying all about how this is sort of the long defeat for the elves.
[00:17:01] And I think something that they really nail is, uh, I think those two things go hand in hand, right?
[00:17:08] Is that the world is fading throughout this age and into the third age.
[00:17:12] And so Galadriel, by the time she becomes Cate Blanchett, uh, is, is a mythic character now, right?
[00:17:19] Because in contrast to the hobbits from Frodo's point of view, there's nothing in middle earth like her.
[00:17:24] There's just nothing that godly almost.
[00:17:27] And she's also like 3000 years older than she is in this season.
[00:17:32] Right, right.
[00:17:32] And, and yet here we have Galadriel who still is thousands of years old.
[00:17:36] And I know some people have taken a lot of issue with sort of how naive she feels at sometimes for being a pretty ancient elf.
[00:17:43] I think I'm fine with it.
[00:17:45] I can see the criticism though, but here I agree with Mark that they are doing a better job showing a more well-rounded character because Galadriel would be more flawed in this age, right?
[00:17:54] Sure.
[00:17:55] She would have learned fewer lessons.
[00:17:56] And I like that we're seeing her learn these lessons.
[00:17:59] So something that they are nailing for me is the character arc and character development of Galadriel.
[00:18:05] Mm-hmm.
[00:18:06] They are also really nailing the Sauron plot line.
[00:18:10] I mean, the, the siege and fall of Eregion is something that was always going to be a hallmark of the show, right?
[00:18:17] Like this was, we did a full episode of the second age podcast on the rinks of power and their creation and the fall of Eregion and how all that happened.
[00:18:27] Mm-hmm.
[00:18:27] And I'm just so glad that that was done so well.
[00:18:30] So I want to just say they are nailing the core of the show.
[00:18:33] All the things that they need to do are getting done.
[00:18:36] Sure.
[00:18:37] The only.
[00:18:38] Literally.
[00:18:38] The core of the original?
[00:18:40] Yeah, really.
[00:18:41] They are.
[00:18:42] They are.
[00:18:42] Yep.
[00:18:42] We test, right?
[00:18:43] Yep.
[00:18:44] But I think the only things that I'm, that are not working for me just yet are really the Numenorean stuff as a whole.
[00:18:50] I will say, you know, obviously we had our nits to pick in episode eight and I don't want to rehash all those, but on a season show structure, the Numenor stuff is really the weakest part for me.
[00:19:00] I think that the Hobbit stuff is good, not great, but the Numenorean stuff is poorly executed right now.
[00:19:06] There are good bits from time to time.
[00:19:08] Like you said, Marilyn, the world building is really good.
[00:19:10] These rituals going around, the design of all the looks of things, how it's kind of Athenian.
[00:19:18] I love all that.
[00:19:19] I don't know who these characters are and they really need to get there for the future of this plot.
[00:19:26] But I also think that now that we have moved past a Region, we will have room for development of characters in Numenor.
[00:19:34] Sure.
[00:19:35] And so that's something that I'm really looking forward to.
[00:19:37] It kind of goes back to what I said before, which is, I almost wish they had waited to introduce Numenor at all.
[00:19:43] Mm-hmm.
[00:19:44] Because just do it right the first time.
[00:19:47] Don't, don't just give me a taste of it, but not have it that enticing.
[00:19:51] Just wait and really spend a full season with these people.
[00:19:54] Just really making me love Isildur and love Elendil and feel pain for when Muriel has to sacrifice herself, right?
[00:20:03] And feel the tension within Arian.
[00:20:05] I know you mentioned that's a less developed character, Marilyn, and I agree with that.
[00:20:08] Yeah.
[00:20:09] Yeah.
[00:20:09] And if you're going to introduce a new character, don't have her just be a plot device, have her be a fully formed character.
[00:20:16] Yeah.
[00:20:18] And I also, something that I'm glad that we're done with is the Grand Elf thing.
[00:20:23] because I feel like that is kind of a relic
[00:20:27] of a previous era of television,
[00:20:29] of everything, every show needs a mystery box, right?
[00:20:33] And we don't do that anymore.
[00:20:34] And I think it's a good thing we've moved on from it
[00:20:36] because these are these artificially created story devices
[00:20:40] that some shows are designed for it,
[00:20:43] like Severance, and that's great.
[00:20:45] And we should have shows like that.
[00:20:46] But if it's not designed for that,
[00:20:48] as I don't think Tolkien's world works in a mystery box, right?
[00:20:51] Tolkien's constantly spoiling himself
[00:20:53] and alluding to the next thing.
[00:20:54] You don't need to have a mystery box.
[00:20:56] It's intriguing on its own.
[00:20:59] I just felt like it was so artificial.
[00:21:00] We all knew it was Gandalf.
[00:21:02] We all knew it was either Gandalf
[00:21:04] or a similar character to Gandalf.
[00:21:06] Why are we playing around here?
[00:21:08] Yeah, yeah.
[00:21:09] It seems weird to me that the Grand Elf thing,
[00:21:12] because I was immediately,
[00:21:14] because I don't know the lore as well.
[00:21:15] As soon as I saw that, I looked at this.
[00:21:16] I was like, there's no way that's what that is.
[00:21:18] But I felt like they left something
[00:21:20] hanging right in front of them.
[00:21:22] Apparently, Gandalf comes from the term for staff elf.
[00:21:27] Yes.
[00:21:27] In Old Norse.
[00:21:28] From the Norse.
[00:21:28] And he says that line about,
[00:21:31] I guess they'll call me Gandalf,
[00:21:32] in the context where he's talking about his staff.
[00:21:34] It's like, it felt like they built that moment
[00:21:36] to have him come up with the name
[00:21:39] as a relationship to the staff
[00:21:41] that had been kind of his whole thing
[00:21:43] for the last several episodes.
[00:21:44] But they just left it hanging there.
[00:21:46] And even that, I think it's just the way they did it
[00:21:48] is what's so clunky.
[00:21:49] It's like, if what I one day,
[00:21:52] what I just say,
[00:21:53] I bet in future versions of English,
[00:21:55] they're going to call you all the Laurens
[00:21:57] instead of the Lorehounds.
[00:21:59] Like he's commenting on.
[00:22:00] Right, yeah.
[00:22:00] He's not saying, I guess my name is Gandalf.
[00:22:02] He's saying one day,
[00:22:04] this language will mutate enough,
[00:22:07] will corrupt enough linguistically
[00:22:09] that they will call me by this.
[00:22:10] It's just, it was really strange.
[00:22:12] It was very clunky.
[00:22:13] Well, I did have a sample of one inadvertently
[00:22:16] with one of my relatives who is in late 40s
[00:22:20] who loved that whole line.
[00:22:22] And this is someone who had read the books a while ago,
[00:22:28] but is definitely hepped on the movies.
[00:22:30] And I think that's who they were aiming that to.
[00:22:34] But I have to think that people who knew nothing
[00:22:36] about Lord of the Rings or Gandalf
[00:22:38] or anything who was watching this show
[00:22:40] just would have been confused
[00:22:42] and wondering why is this taking so long?
[00:22:45] And then those of us who knew the lore
[00:22:46] either, you know,
[00:22:48] made our peace with it or hated it or whatever.
[00:22:51] But I just, yeah, I agree, John.
[00:22:53] It was not, it wasn't really a needed device.
[00:22:56] Yeah, I mean, it was the same thing
[00:22:57] with Halbran season one to a lesser degree
[00:22:59] because I thought that reveal was better.
[00:23:01] But leading up to that,
[00:23:02] I think we were all frustrated.
[00:23:03] Like, can you just tell us who this guy is?
[00:23:05] I mean, this is just, again,
[00:23:07] we're here to watch these mythic characters
[00:23:09] do their mythic deeds.
[00:23:11] We're not here to figure out
[00:23:12] the identity of different people, right?
[00:23:15] Yeah.
[00:23:15] So anyway, I'm just glad that we're moving on from that.
[00:23:18] And I hope that we don't introduce more of it.
[00:23:20] I know we still have a little bit
[00:23:21] of a hanging mystery box over Saruman.
[00:23:23] Yes.
[00:23:24] Well, and also the dark wizard.
[00:23:26] Well, that's what I mean,
[00:23:27] is like, is that Saruman and whatnot?
[00:23:30] But, you know,
[00:23:31] I hope that they don't drag that out too much.
[00:23:33] Anyway, overall.
[00:23:34] Just to interject, John, quickly,
[00:23:37] I didn't dig too deep into this,
[00:23:40] but apparently Payne and McKay,
[00:23:42] one of them, both of them, whatever,
[00:23:43] in some interviews,
[00:23:44] said that he's not,
[00:23:45] like definitively said,
[00:23:46] he's not Saruman.
[00:23:47] No, they did not.
[00:23:48] It's not definitively.
[00:23:49] I read the same thing.
[00:23:51] You did? Okay.
[00:23:51] I've read two articles
[00:23:53] and in every single statement they made,
[00:23:55] it was qualified.
[00:23:56] They said it wouldn't make sense
[00:23:57] if it was Saruman.
[00:23:59] It would be almost impossible for Saruman.
[00:23:59] They said, well, if you know the lore,
[00:24:00] you'd know it wouldn't really make sense
[00:24:02] if he was Saruman.
[00:24:02] Saruman, which is not saying
[00:24:05] it's not Saruman.
[00:24:06] It's leaving it open for them
[00:24:07] to play a little like,
[00:24:09] well, we said it wouldn't make sense
[00:24:10] based on the lore,
[00:24:11] but we're changing this.
[00:24:12] Okay.
[00:24:13] Got it.
[00:24:13] All right.
[00:24:13] Fair enough.
[00:24:14] I didn't read.
[00:24:14] I have a question about the rights of this.
[00:24:15] Sorry to interrupt.
[00:24:17] I understand that the blue wizard thing
[00:24:19] is a thing reserved
[00:24:20] from the Silmarillion or whatever,
[00:24:22] but is the fact that there are
[00:24:25] five wizards,
[00:24:26] that there are more wizards
[00:24:27] than the three that we see
[00:24:29] in The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit,
[00:24:30] is that mentioned
[00:24:31] in any of the appendices?
[00:24:32] Because it's mentioned in the main text.
[00:24:34] It's in the main text.
[00:24:35] Oh, okay.
[00:24:35] So like they could have another wizard
[00:24:37] that is Saruman.
[00:24:39] It just can't call it a blue wizard,
[00:24:41] I guess, right?
[00:24:42] Right.
[00:24:42] Unless they get explicit permission
[00:24:43] from the Dolby State.
[00:24:44] But yeah.
[00:24:45] Gandalf says at one point,
[00:24:46] there were five of our order,
[00:24:48] I believe, is the line.
[00:24:49] And Saruman screams about,
[00:24:51] you know,
[00:24:51] the staffs of the five wizards
[00:24:53] when he's confronting,
[00:24:55] Gandalf is confronting him
[00:24:56] at Isengard.
[00:24:58] Got it.
[00:25:01] So anyway, David,
[00:25:02] sorry,
[00:25:03] I didn't mean to shut you down there,
[00:25:04] but I'm glad you,
[00:25:05] I'm glad you had more clarity on it
[00:25:07] than I did
[00:25:07] because I didn't actually
[00:25:08] read those articles.
[00:25:09] I only, you know,
[00:25:10] derived what the,
[00:25:11] what they wanted me to derive,
[00:25:13] which is,
[00:25:14] oh, but maybe it's not Saruman.
[00:25:15] They're tamping it down,
[00:25:17] but they left,
[00:25:18] they're tamping down the criticism
[00:25:20] while also leaving the door open.
[00:25:22] And that concerns me a little bit.
[00:25:24] But look,
[00:25:25] I just wanted to say
[00:25:25] before I pass it on to you,
[00:25:27] David,
[00:25:28] overall,
[00:25:28] I think they landed the plane.
[00:25:29] I said this multiple times
[00:25:30] on the finale episode.
[00:25:32] It's,
[00:25:32] it was a good season.
[00:25:34] It was a very good season,
[00:25:35] I would say.
[00:25:36] I think season,
[00:25:37] season one was mid-level.
[00:25:38] This was a high level season.
[00:25:41] It was not like
[00:25:42] my favorite show of the year,
[00:25:44] but it was,
[00:25:45] it was very good
[00:25:46] and it did make me excited
[00:25:47] for season three.
[00:25:48] Yes.
[00:25:49] Now,
[00:25:50] David,
[00:25:50] give us your thoughts.
[00:25:53] I think I'm pretty much
[00:25:54] in line with everyone.
[00:25:57] Nothing in this season broke me.
[00:25:59] There's a couple of things
[00:25:59] in season one
[00:26:00] that I was just like,
[00:26:01] oh,
[00:26:01] you know,
[00:26:02] that,
[00:26:02] that was unfortunate
[00:26:03] that they made that decision.
[00:26:05] Nothing this season did that.
[00:26:07] And so that's good.
[00:26:10] A few other nitpicky things
[00:26:12] and just a little
[00:26:13] here and there.
[00:26:14] And then I have some things
[00:26:14] that I want to praise the show for.
[00:26:16] I noticed,
[00:26:17] I remember when we started
[00:26:18] the season,
[00:26:19] it was very visually dark,
[00:26:20] but by the end it wasn't.
[00:26:22] So I guess that's kind of
[00:26:23] a good thing.
[00:26:24] The,
[00:26:25] we talked a little bit
[00:26:27] before about
[00:26:29] this,
[00:26:30] the number of episodes
[00:26:31] in the season
[00:26:32] and whether this was
[00:26:33] a lumpy season.
[00:26:37] And,
[00:26:38] and regardless of
[00:26:39] pancake batter being,
[00:26:41] you know,
[00:26:42] whether you get better pancakes
[00:26:43] if it's lumpy or not lumpy.
[00:26:45] Um,
[00:26:46] I think they,
[00:26:47] it's unfortunate
[00:26:48] that they are
[00:26:49] constrained
[00:26:50] to doing
[00:26:51] eight episodes,
[00:26:52] uh,
[00:26:53] seasons.
[00:26:54] I don't think
[00:26:55] that is a
[00:26:56] thing that serves
[00:26:57] the story.
[00:26:58] I,
[00:26:59] I,
[00:26:59] I think it's fine
[00:27:00] to give creatives
[00:27:02] constraints
[00:27:02] because that creates
[00:27:03] innovation
[00:27:04] and experimentation
[00:27:06] and some of the best,
[00:27:08] you know,
[00:27:08] movies that we've had
[00:27:09] have been things
[00:27:15] just that hard limit
[00:27:16] just really,
[00:27:16] uh,
[00:27:17] compresses it.
[00:27:18] And,
[00:27:18] and I think it affects
[00:27:20] storylines.
[00:27:20] And when we look at
[00:27:21] the different storylines,
[00:27:23] the,
[00:27:23] the elf storyline,
[00:27:24] the overall,
[00:27:25] all of the elven storyline
[00:27:27] parts were really good.
[00:27:29] The dwarf,
[00:27:30] the Southlander
[00:27:31] and the Numenor
[00:27:32] were lumpy,
[00:27:33] right?
[00:27:34] In some cases
[00:27:34] they were really good.
[00:27:35] In some cases
[00:27:35] they were,
[00:27:36] you know,
[00:27:36] not so great.
[00:27:37] And then the stewards
[00:27:38] and rune
[00:27:39] and,
[00:27:39] and enough
[00:27:40] that other than
[00:27:41] the Tom Bombadil stuff
[00:27:42] was,
[00:27:43] it was just
[00:27:44] that's again
[00:27:45] where some of their
[00:27:46] weakest writing is.
[00:27:48] Um,
[00:27:49] there were a lot
[00:27:50] of fan service
[00:27:51] elements this,
[00:27:53] I,
[00:27:54] uh,
[00:27:54] this season
[00:27:55] I
[00:27:56] attempted something
[00:27:57] last night
[00:27:58] was to like
[00:27:59] see how many
[00:28:00] episodes I could
[00:28:01] plow through
[00:28:01] in a,
[00:28:02] in a,
[00:28:03] in a one night
[00:28:03] sitting.
[00:28:04] John found
[00:28:05] this really cool
[00:28:06] Chrome plugin
[00:28:07] that will take
[00:28:09] any speed
[00:28:10] that you can,
[00:28:11] you know,
[00:28:11] like I was legally
[00:28:12] watching it on
[00:28:13] uh,
[00:28:14] on,
[00:28:14] uh,
[00:28:15] Amazon
[00:28:16] and that you
[00:28:17] can speed it up.
[00:28:18] So I was playing
[00:28:18] the episodes
[00:28:19] at double speed
[00:28:20] and I got through
[00:28:21] to episode six
[00:28:22] and,
[00:28:22] uh,
[00:28:23] I had to like
[00:28:24] bail at about
[00:28:25] halfway through
[00:28:25] episode six
[00:28:26] and a lot of it
[00:28:27] I was just sort of
[00:28:28] passively.
[00:28:28] I was just sort of
[00:28:29] trying to get the,
[00:28:30] the gestalt of it all,
[00:28:31] you know,
[00:28:32] just sort of let it
[00:28:32] just wash over me
[00:28:33] and,
[00:28:34] and just see,
[00:28:35] you know,
[00:28:35] how it went.
[00:28:36] There were so many
[00:28:38] fan servicey elements,
[00:28:39] everything from
[00:28:40] Jacksonian,
[00:28:41] you know,
[00:28:41] visual callbacks
[00:28:42] to nameless things
[00:28:44] to tree ends,
[00:28:46] you know,
[00:28:46] did it really make
[00:28:47] a difference for the
[00:28:47] story in some of
[00:28:49] this stuff?
[00:28:50] In a lot of cases,
[00:28:51] no.
[00:28:51] And it was just
[00:28:52] pure fan service.
[00:28:55] But then the question
[00:28:56] is,
[00:28:56] is who is this show
[00:28:57] for?
[00:28:58] And why are they
[00:29:00] adding those elements
[00:29:01] and they're trying
[00:29:02] to build a,
[00:29:03] a bit of a rich
[00:29:04] world and tap into
[00:29:05] as much of the lore
[00:29:06] as they can?
[00:29:08] And that is a,
[00:29:09] a plus and a minus.
[00:29:11] And I think they're
[00:29:11] using it,
[00:29:12] some of those things
[00:29:13] in a little bit of,
[00:29:14] of a gratuitous way.
[00:29:15] And I think it doesn't
[00:29:16] do them that much
[00:29:18] good.
[00:29:18] It doesn't do them
[00:29:19] as good as they
[00:29:20] think that they're,
[00:29:20] that they're going
[00:29:21] to get.
[00:29:21] They're not,
[00:29:22] they're not getting
[00:29:22] the results fully
[00:29:24] is if they really
[00:29:25] stay focused on
[00:29:26] the Numenorean
[00:29:27] storyline and the
[00:29:28] political intrigue
[00:29:29] and what's going
[00:29:30] on there.
[00:29:31] Instead,
[00:29:31] we have to have a,
[00:29:32] you know,
[00:29:32] nameless,
[00:29:33] you know,
[00:29:34] a quicksand monster
[00:29:35] and,
[00:29:36] you know,
[00:29:36] all of this kind of
[00:29:37] and treants.
[00:29:38] But then they don't,
[00:29:39] nothing happens with
[00:29:40] the treants.
[00:29:40] We just have this one
[00:29:42] encounter and then
[00:29:43] that's it.
[00:29:43] It had no impact
[00:29:45] on the storyline
[00:29:47] for the season
[00:29:48] and you could have
[00:29:49] used that time.
[00:29:49] If you only got
[00:29:50] eight episodes,
[00:29:51] you know,
[00:29:52] think,
[00:29:52] you know,
[00:29:52] you really should be
[00:29:53] using your time
[00:29:54] wisely.
[00:29:56] That said,
[00:29:57] some of the stuff
[00:29:58] that I thought was
[00:29:59] really great in this
[00:30:00] was,
[00:30:01] like you said,
[00:30:02] John,
[00:30:02] the whole depiction
[00:30:03] of Sauron
[00:30:05] and how,
[00:30:09] you know,
[00:30:09] this master
[00:30:10] manipulator
[00:30:11] and how he's able
[00:30:12] to work
[00:30:13] and to,
[00:30:16] you know,
[00:30:16] all these different
[00:30:17] machinations.
[00:30:18] Then we had this
[00:30:19] whole Galadriel,
[00:30:21] you know,
[00:30:22] backstory intention
[00:30:23] that was there
[00:30:25] in the background,
[00:30:25] but it wasn't
[00:30:26] in the foreground,
[00:30:27] but it really
[00:30:28] colored the whole
[00:30:29] thing because that's
[00:30:30] what was driving
[00:30:30] her action.
[00:30:32] And I really
[00:30:33] thought that that
[00:30:35] was really good.
[00:30:35] If you take a step
[00:30:36] back and think about
[00:30:37] what are some of the
[00:30:38] places where dramatic
[00:30:39] tension is arising
[00:30:40] from,
[00:30:41] that relationship,
[00:30:42] even though it's not
[00:30:43] active on screen,
[00:30:45] was driving so much
[00:30:46] of the elf storyline.
[00:30:48] There's something I
[00:30:49] wanted to highlight
[00:30:50] too,
[00:30:51] which I've seen
[00:30:52] some stuff.
[00:30:52] Tea with Tolkien
[00:30:53] had a really
[00:30:54] interesting post.
[00:30:55] I posted a visual
[00:30:57] of that in our
[00:30:58] private Discord chat.
[00:31:02] and this,
[00:31:04] this idea
[00:31:06] that,
[00:31:06] you know,
[00:31:06] do Sauron and
[00:31:08] Galadriel have a
[00:31:09] romantic relationship?
[00:31:10] You know,
[00:31:11] what about Elrond
[00:31:12] and Galadriel?
[00:31:13] And something that
[00:31:14] I like,
[00:31:14] that I really
[00:31:15] appreciate the,
[00:31:16] admire the show
[00:31:16] for and appreciate
[00:31:17] what they did
[00:31:18] was,
[00:31:19] in a lot of
[00:31:19] other TV shows,
[00:31:20] when you have a
[00:31:21] male and a female
[00:31:22] character,
[00:31:22] unless they're gay
[00:31:24] and they don't
[00:31:25] have any interest,
[00:31:26] you know,
[00:31:26] they're not,
[00:31:26] they're just,
[00:31:27] I'm not interested
[00:31:27] in you in that way.
[00:31:28] If it's anything
[00:31:30] else,
[00:31:31] the inevitable
[00:31:32] trajectory of those
[00:31:33] two characters
[00:31:34] is that they're
[00:31:34] going to fall in
[00:31:35] love and,
[00:31:35] you know,
[00:31:36] and be happy.
[00:31:37] You know,
[00:31:38] Diane and Sam
[00:31:39] on Cheers
[00:31:40] and all the
[00:31:41] people on the
[00:31:42] Friends show,
[00:31:43] right?
[00:31:43] They all ended
[00:31:44] up,
[00:31:44] you know,
[00:31:44] poking up with
[00:31:45] each other
[00:31:45] and stuff.
[00:31:47] I really like
[00:31:48] the fact that
[00:31:48] Galadriel has
[00:31:50] a very intimate
[00:31:51] relationship with
[00:31:52] both Elrond
[00:31:53] and Sauron,
[00:31:55] but neither
[00:31:56] of them are
[00:31:56] romantic.
[00:31:58] They're intimate,
[00:31:58] they're close,
[00:32:00] they share,
[00:32:01] there's a lot
[00:32:01] going on there
[00:32:02] and I was just
[00:32:02] like,
[00:32:03] oh,
[00:32:03] this is so
[00:32:03] nice.
[00:32:04] I don't care,
[00:32:05] you know,
[00:32:05] there's,
[00:32:06] oh,
[00:32:06] they're shipping
[00:32:06] Hal brand
[00:32:07] and Galadriel
[00:32:08] and all this
[00:32:09] kind of stuff.
[00:32:09] I thought it
[00:32:10] was actually
[00:32:10] kind of refreshing
[00:32:11] that a woman
[00:32:12] can have a
[00:32:12] close relationship
[00:32:13] with a man
[00:32:13] that doesn't
[00:32:14] end up in
[00:32:15] a romantic
[00:32:15] relationship.
[00:32:17] So,
[00:32:17] I thought that
[00:32:18] that was a
[00:32:18] really great
[00:32:19] thing that they
[00:32:19] did.
[00:32:22] the CGI
[00:32:23] of the Balrog
[00:32:25] for a
[00:32:26] television show,
[00:32:28] that was
[00:32:28] amazing.
[00:32:29] That was a,
[00:32:31] that was an
[00:32:31] absolutely stunning
[00:32:33] piece of
[00:32:34] visual
[00:32:35] storytelling
[00:32:36] and I
[00:32:37] thought that
[00:32:38] they really
[00:32:38] knocked it out
[00:32:39] of the park
[00:32:39] and they put,
[00:32:40] they clearly
[00:32:41] put their
[00:32:41] money into
[00:32:42] that,
[00:32:43] you know,
[00:32:43] they saved
[00:32:43] up their
[00:32:44] pennies for
[00:32:44] that.
[00:32:44] So,
[00:32:44] love that.
[00:32:47] Something
[00:32:51] that we
[00:32:52] got in
[00:32:53] this season
[00:32:55] of television
[00:32:55] that we
[00:32:56] did not
[00:32:56] get in
[00:32:57] House of
[00:32:58] the Dragon
[00:32:59] was we
[00:33:00] got the,
[00:33:01] even though
[00:33:02] they're working
[00:33:02] with an
[00:33:02] eight episode
[00:33:03] hard boundary,
[00:33:06] they built
[00:33:07] and planned
[00:33:08] their season
[00:33:09] for that.
[00:33:10] So,
[00:33:10] the episode
[00:33:10] seven was a
[00:33:11] penultimate
[00:33:12] episode.
[00:33:13] What did
[00:33:14] you call it,
[00:33:14] John?
[00:33:14] Not a
[00:33:14] denouement.
[00:33:16] What did
[00:33:17] you say the
[00:33:18] other day?
[00:33:19] Denouement.
[00:33:23] That's what
[00:33:24] it was.
[00:33:24] Was,
[00:33:25] was so
[00:33:27] good.
[00:33:27] They hit
[00:33:28] the mark
[00:33:28] that we
[00:33:29] wanted and
[00:33:29] then we,
[00:33:30] you know,
[00:33:30] we,
[00:33:30] we resolved
[00:33:32] in,
[00:33:32] in,
[00:33:33] in the
[00:33:34] eighth episode.
[00:33:35] We got a
[00:33:35] status,
[00:33:36] we got a
[00:33:36] battle.
[00:33:37] We have,
[00:33:38] you know,
[00:33:39] dramatic,
[00:33:39] we have all
[00:33:40] this tension
[00:33:40] building up
[00:33:41] and then we
[00:33:41] have the
[00:33:42] release and
[00:33:43] then,
[00:33:43] so they
[00:33:44] planned their
[00:33:44] season well.
[00:33:45] That's something
[00:33:46] that House of
[00:33:46] the Dragon
[00:33:47] didn't do
[00:33:47] for us this
[00:33:48] year.
[00:33:48] And it's
[00:33:49] not necessarily
[00:33:50] to the
[00:33:50] showrunner's
[00:33:50] fault.
[00:33:51] I mean,
[00:33:51] I know the
[00:33:51] studio was
[00:33:52] messing with
[00:33:52] a little bit.
[00:33:53] So,
[00:33:53] really good
[00:33:54] job on
[00:33:55] that.
[00:33:55] I really
[00:33:55] see them
[00:33:56] moving forward.
[00:33:58] A couple
[00:33:58] of final
[00:33:59] little notes,
[00:34:00] just to hang
[00:34:01] this one out
[00:34:01] there.
[00:34:01] We never
[00:34:02] got an
[00:34:02] answer to
[00:34:02] why the
[00:34:03] ocean
[00:34:03] burped
[00:34:04] when,
[00:34:05] what's-his-name
[00:34:06] tried to
[00:34:06] drop the
[00:34:07] rings into
[00:34:07] the big,
[00:34:08] you know,
[00:34:09] scar.
[00:34:10] Another
[00:34:11] quick note
[00:34:11] is,
[00:34:12] I was thinking
[00:34:13] about this
[00:34:13] today,
[00:34:13] I saw
[00:34:13] what,
[00:34:15] there's a
[00:34:15] famous
[00:34:16] painting or
[00:34:17] illustration of
[00:34:18] Tom Bombadil
[00:34:19] where he's got a
[00:34:20] big tall hat and
[00:34:21] he's skipping up
[00:34:21] and he's sort of
[00:34:22] dancing through
[00:34:22] the forest.
[00:34:23] I couldn't find
[00:34:24] who the original
[00:34:25] author of that
[00:34:25] was,
[00:34:26] but it's the
[00:34:26] one that,
[00:34:26] you know,
[00:34:27] if you just
[00:34:28] Google Tom
[00:34:28] Bombadil,
[00:34:29] that's the
[00:34:29] one.
[00:34:30] And he
[00:34:30] looks like
[00:34:30] sort of a
[00:34:31] very merry,
[00:34:32] jolly,
[00:34:32] sort of goofy
[00:34:33] fellow.
[00:34:35] Yeah.
[00:34:35] And I,
[00:34:36] something that I,
[00:34:37] I realized
[00:34:40] that I think
[00:34:40] the show did
[00:34:41] a really good
[00:34:41] job of is
[00:34:42] that Tom
[00:34:43] is not a
[00:34:44] goofball.
[00:34:45] Just because
[00:34:46] he's a merry
[00:34:47] fellow does
[00:34:47] not mean that
[00:34:48] he has to
[00:34:49] be a goofball
[00:34:49] skipping and
[00:34:50] dancing and
[00:34:50] doing all
[00:34:51] sorts of
[00:34:51] goofy stuff
[00:34:52] in the,
[00:34:52] you know,
[00:34:53] around the
[00:34:53] forest.
[00:34:54] So I thought
[00:34:55] that they
[00:34:56] nailed the
[00:34:57] Tom Bombadil
[00:34:57] depiction.
[00:34:59] He can be
[00:35:00] serious,
[00:35:00] he can be
[00:35:00] contemplative,
[00:35:01] he can be
[00:35:02] a little quirky,
[00:35:02] he can be
[00:35:03] a little fun,
[00:35:04] he can be
[00:35:04] easygoing,
[00:35:05] and I
[00:35:07] just felt
[00:35:08] like they,
[00:35:10] of all the
[00:35:10] difficult things
[00:35:11] that they had
[00:35:12] to manage
[00:35:12] for this season,
[00:35:13] that was the
[00:35:14] most difficult,
[00:35:15] and I think
[00:35:16] they executed
[00:35:17] really well
[00:35:18] on it.
[00:35:19] So overall,
[00:35:20] I see a lot
[00:35:21] of growth
[00:35:21] in all areas
[00:35:23] of their
[00:35:23] storytelling,
[00:35:24] and their
[00:35:24] visual storytelling
[00:35:25] is excellent.
[00:35:26] Their writing
[00:35:27] is still a little
[00:35:28] lumpy,
[00:35:28] but it's gotten
[00:35:29] so much better
[00:35:29] than the first
[00:35:30] season,
[00:35:31] and I'm
[00:35:32] really looking
[00:35:32] forward to
[00:35:32] season three,
[00:35:33] and I'm just
[00:35:34] really glad.
[00:35:35] And I think
[00:35:35] the other thing
[00:35:36] is,
[00:35:36] and we've
[00:35:36] talked about
[00:35:36] this,
[00:35:37] if a show
[00:35:39] feels confident
[00:35:40] that they
[00:35:40] have a
[00:35:42] runway,
[00:35:42] the actors
[00:35:43] are going to
[00:35:44] lean into
[00:35:44] the characters,
[00:35:45] the writers
[00:35:45] are going to
[00:35:45] lean into
[00:35:46] the words,
[00:35:47] the production
[00:35:48] people are
[00:35:48] going to
[00:35:49] work,
[00:35:51] they're like,
[00:35:51] yeah,
[00:35:52] we did a
[00:35:53] great job
[00:35:53] last season,
[00:35:54] let's make
[00:35:54] a better
[00:35:54] season next
[00:35:55] year.
[00:35:56] And so I
[00:35:56] think that's
[00:35:57] a really
[00:35:57] important thing
[00:35:58] for the
[00:35:58] show,
[00:35:59] is that there
[00:36:00] is no
[00:36:00] indication
[00:36:01] unless they
[00:36:01] really stuff
[00:36:02] it up,
[00:36:03] they're going
[00:36:04] to get a
[00:36:04] season three.
[00:36:05] And that
[00:36:06] gives the
[00:36:07] show a
[00:36:08] lot of
[00:36:09] inertia,
[00:36:10] and it
[00:36:11] gives the
[00:36:11] actors,
[00:36:11] the writers,
[00:36:12] the production
[00:36:12] people all
[00:36:13] that inertia,
[00:36:13] and that
[00:36:14] gives them
[00:36:14] the space
[00:36:15] to grow,
[00:36:15] and that
[00:36:16] gives them
[00:36:16] the space
[00:36:17] to deliver
[00:36:17] us better
[00:36:19] television in
[00:36:20] the long run.
[00:36:21] Cool.
[00:36:23] Nice.
[00:36:23] Well,
[00:36:23] as always,
[00:36:24] we've done a
[00:36:25] very good job
[00:36:25] keeping our
[00:36:26] hot takes
[00:36:26] succinct,
[00:36:27] and we are
[00:36:28] 35 minutes
[00:36:29] in.
[00:36:30] Right
[00:36:31] here,
[00:36:31] right here,
[00:36:31] it says
[00:36:31] right here
[00:36:32] in the
[00:36:32] I actually
[00:36:32] have more
[00:36:33] because I
[00:36:33] have to go
[00:36:34] first,
[00:36:34] and I'm
[00:36:35] like,
[00:36:35] oh my
[00:36:35] gosh,
[00:36:35] so many
[00:36:35] thoughts.
[00:36:36] It says
[00:36:36] right here,
[00:36:37] quick season
[00:36:38] opinions.
[00:36:39] Yeah,
[00:36:40] yeah.
[00:36:40] In our
[00:36:40] outline.
[00:36:41] Well,
[00:36:42] that's five
[00:36:42] minutes per
[00:36:43] person,
[00:36:43] and that's,
[00:36:44] you know,
[00:36:44] reasonable.
[00:36:45] I'm my
[00:36:45] own personal
[00:36:46] Sauron,
[00:36:46] I deceive
[00:36:47] myself when I
[00:36:48] outline.
[00:36:48] So,
[00:36:50] let's take a
[00:36:50] quick break
[00:36:51] before we get
[00:36:52] into Mark's
[00:36:53] musical trivia
[00:36:54] game.
[00:37:06] Wünschst du
[00:37:07] dir jemanden,
[00:37:08] der dich
[00:37:08] versteht wie
[00:37:09] kein anderer?
[00:37:10] Jemand,
[00:37:10] der deine
[00:37:11] Wünsche
[00:37:11] wahr werden
[00:37:12] lässt
[00:37:12] und mit dir
[00:37:13] das schönste
[00:37:14] Abenteuer
[00:37:14] deines Lebens
[00:37:15] erleben
[00:37:15] möchte?
[00:37:16] Die
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[00:38:11] Welcome back and we are
[00:38:13] ready to play a game
[00:38:15] that I'm calling
[00:38:15] Are You Smarter
[00:38:16] Than Dairon?
[00:38:19] You'll recall
[00:38:20] Dairon was the
[00:38:21] bard mentioned by
[00:38:22] Kirdan earlier in the
[00:38:24] season when he was
[00:38:25] saying he was
[00:38:26] insufferable
[00:38:27] because Elrond was
[00:38:29] questioning if you can
[00:38:30] trust rings created in
[00:38:31] part by someone you
[00:38:33] don't like.
[00:38:34] So Mark,
[00:38:35] you've been sending us
[00:38:35] fun audio summaries for
[00:38:37] each episode the whole
[00:38:37] season and we goofed
[00:38:39] and we didn't include
[00:38:39] them in the early
[00:38:40] opportunity.
[00:38:41] So the whole season
[00:38:42] we're trying to figure
[00:38:43] out what to do with
[00:38:44] them and then you had
[00:38:45] this idea that you
[00:38:46] present them as a game
[00:38:47] and we all loved the
[00:38:48] idea.
[00:38:48] So can you tell us
[00:38:49] what's going to happen
[00:38:50] next?
[00:38:52] Okay,
[00:38:53] so I started off
[00:38:54] thinking I was going
[00:38:55] to catch you on the
[00:38:56] feedback episodes,
[00:38:58] basically weekly
[00:38:58] feedbacks where I
[00:39:00] was I had created
[00:39:01] essentially a musical
[00:39:02] summary,
[00:39:03] a musical collage
[00:39:04] using various pop
[00:39:06] songs basically that
[00:39:07] would summarize a
[00:39:09] given scene from
[00:39:11] each of the
[00:39:12] episodes,
[00:39:12] but you all did
[00:39:14] that first four
[00:39:16] episodes mega
[00:39:17] feedback and so
[00:39:18] sort of like at
[00:39:19] that point the
[00:39:19] pacing would have
[00:39:20] been so strange.
[00:39:21] So here's what we're
[00:39:22] going to do instead.
[00:39:24] I have created
[00:39:25] little short,
[00:39:26] you know,
[00:39:27] 30 second ish
[00:39:28] collages of
[00:39:29] different songs that
[00:39:30] summarize sometimes
[00:39:32] literally sometimes
[00:39:33] more abstractly a
[00:39:35] given scene in each
[00:39:36] episode of this
[00:39:38] season.
[00:39:39] And what I would
[00:39:40] like you all to do
[00:39:41] is listen, we could
[00:39:42] listen multiple times
[00:39:42] if you need it,
[00:39:43] figure out what I'm
[00:39:45] trying to tell you,
[00:39:46] figure out which,
[00:39:47] I will tell you at
[00:39:49] least which episode it
[00:39:50] comes from, but
[00:39:51] you're going to figure
[00:39:52] out which scene from
[00:39:54] that episode I'm
[00:39:55] referring to.
[00:39:56] And I guess we could
[00:39:58] say what would,
[00:39:59] what would Darren
[00:40:01] say?
[00:40:02] Like you're like a
[00:40:04] lore master if you
[00:40:05] get half, let's say
[00:40:06] half of them right
[00:40:07] would be good.
[00:40:09] All right.
[00:40:10] That sounds good.
[00:40:10] I think reasonably,
[00:40:11] I think you can get
[00:40:12] partial credit if you're
[00:40:13] really close, I think.
[00:40:15] But if not, you are
[00:40:16] fed to maybe the
[00:40:19] Balrog, but honestly,
[00:40:20] I think the hungrier
[00:40:20] creature is the
[00:40:22] creature in the ocean.
[00:40:22] And that thing passed
[00:40:24] up a good meal.
[00:40:26] All right.
[00:40:27] Very nice.
[00:40:27] What was the troll's
[00:40:28] name?
[00:40:28] Damron?
[00:40:29] Damrod.
[00:40:29] Damrod.
[00:40:30] He's got the appetite.
[00:40:33] Or does, does Dairon
[00:40:34] just tell our dad that
[00:40:35] we're seeing a man?
[00:40:37] Yeah.
[00:40:38] Because that's what he
[00:40:38] did in the lore.
[00:40:40] He just, he, he
[00:40:41] tattled on Luthien that,
[00:40:42] that she was seeing
[00:40:43] Baron.
[00:40:44] And since that was a
[00:40:45] fairly stupid move, I'm
[00:40:46] not sure how being, you
[00:40:49] know, more intelligent
[00:40:50] than Dairon is.
[00:40:51] Pretty low bar.
[00:40:53] So let's hope we don't
[00:40:55] fail at this.
[00:40:55] Let's, Dairon, don't
[00:40:57] feed us the Damrod.
[00:40:59] Lead us through, Mark.
[00:41:02] Okay.
[00:41:03] So the first one, you
[00:41:04] guessed it, comes from
[00:41:06] episode one of the
[00:41:08] season.
[00:41:08] Elven King's Under the
[00:41:10] Sky.
[00:41:11] You should see me in
[00:41:12] the crowd.
[00:41:13] I don't know when
[00:41:15] there's nothing.
[00:41:16] Shark, do, do, do, do,
[00:41:37] do, do, do, do,
[00:41:37] Grandpa Shark.
[00:41:44] That's awesome.
[00:41:45] Who wants to go first?
[00:41:47] I think I have.
[00:41:48] Put your heads together.
[00:41:48] What do you got?
[00:41:49] Well, it's something, I
[00:41:52] mean, Elrond being as
[00:41:53] cold as ice, it sounds
[00:41:54] like something that went
[00:41:55] on between Galadriel and
[00:41:57] Elrond.
[00:41:57] And the Grandpa Shark
[00:41:59] makes me think of
[00:42:00] Kyrrdan.
[00:42:00] So that's all I got.
[00:42:02] What about you, David?
[00:42:03] You say you know it?
[00:42:04] I feel like it's the
[00:42:07] Sauron's journey.
[00:42:09] Yep.
[00:42:10] Oh, okay.
[00:42:10] It's the cold open.
[00:42:11] Okay.
[00:42:12] Yep.
[00:42:13] Because it ends then
[00:42:14] with the shark and,
[00:42:16] but cold as ice,
[00:42:18] that's when, you know,
[00:42:19] when Ford Wife, you
[00:42:20] know, it blows up.
[00:42:20] Right, right, right,
[00:42:21] right, right.
[00:42:21] What was the next one,
[00:42:25] Mark, what was the
[00:42:26] Evanescence?
[00:42:26] Bring Me Back to Life.
[00:42:29] Yes.
[00:42:29] Yeah.
[00:42:30] That was fairly,
[00:42:30] fairly good.
[00:42:31] I just have a,
[00:42:32] I'm not talented at
[00:42:34] actually hearing lyrics
[00:42:35] and an awful lot of
[00:42:36] pop songs.
[00:42:37] Well, we're going to
[00:42:38] help you through it,
[00:42:38] Marilyn.
[00:42:39] Don't worry.
[00:42:39] You are.
[00:42:39] You're doing great.
[00:42:40] You're doing great.
[00:42:41] You got teammates.
[00:42:42] And then the baby shark
[00:42:43] made me laugh a lot that
[00:42:44] he's going off against
[00:42:45] the shark.
[00:42:45] That's good.
[00:42:46] That's good stuff.
[00:42:47] As I collected that one,
[00:42:49] I didn't yet see the
[00:42:51] later episode where it
[00:42:52] doesn't look so much
[00:42:53] like a shark.
[00:42:54] Well, that's okay.
[00:42:55] It's close enough.
[00:42:57] Yeah.
[00:42:58] At first I thought we
[00:42:59] were jumping ahead a
[00:43:00] couple seasons to
[00:43:00] Muriel's trial, but maybe
[00:43:03] it'll be something else
[00:43:04] for that.
[00:43:04] I don't know.
[00:43:05] I just have to thank you
[00:43:06] for throwing in the
[00:43:07] foreigner.
[00:43:07] I feel seen.
[00:43:09] Oh, yeah.
[00:43:10] Or heard.
[00:43:10] I'm trying to mix it
[00:43:11] up here.
[00:43:11] I'm trying to start it
[00:43:12] with Billie Eilish and
[00:43:13] then went straight to
[00:43:15] foreigner.
[00:43:16] That was the one song I
[00:43:16] didn't really know.
[00:43:17] Well, if you put in any
[00:43:18] Sibelius, then I'll know
[00:43:20] that you were really
[00:43:21] putting it there for me.
[00:43:22] We got to keep the show
[00:43:23] guys open for these so
[00:43:24] that we know which scenes
[00:43:25] that are in each episode.
[00:43:27] Otherwise, we're never
[00:43:27] going to be able to keep
[00:43:28] it straight.
[00:43:29] Seriously.
[00:43:30] Yeah, that's right.
[00:43:32] Did we pass?
[00:43:32] All right.
[00:43:34] You are correct.
[00:43:35] One point.
[00:43:37] Very nice.
[00:43:38] What's a unit of
[00:43:39] currency in Middle
[00:43:42] Earth?
[00:43:44] Marilyn, you know more
[00:43:45] than me.
[00:43:46] Gold coins.
[00:43:46] He never really talked.
[00:43:47] He just talks about
[00:43:48] think.
[00:43:49] Yeah.
[00:43:49] I don't think there's
[00:43:50] ever about having a small
[00:43:52] amount.
[00:43:52] Half point.
[00:43:53] Yeah, that's no good for
[00:43:54] me.
[00:43:54] That's no good.
[00:43:55] That's no good.
[00:43:56] All right.
[00:43:57] All right.
[00:43:57] One point.
[00:43:58] We'll go with one point.
[00:44:00] Episode two, where the
[00:44:01] stars are strange.
[00:44:41] I feel like that's a hard one.
[00:44:47] That was dense.
[00:44:48] That was a lot going on there.
[00:44:50] Well, the stranger comes to mind.
[00:44:52] The references to Jesus and...
[00:44:56] Oh, no.
[00:44:56] Marilyn, you got to look at the show
[00:44:57] guide because I know exactly what
[00:45:00] shot you're referring to, Mark, with
[00:45:02] he doesn't look a thing like Jesus.
[00:45:05] This is Sauron doing his
[00:45:07] Annatar pose.
[00:45:08] If he does look like Jesus, maybe
[00:45:10] actually more accurate.
[00:45:11] Oh, of course.
[00:45:12] Of course.
[00:45:13] Of course.
[00:45:13] Of course.
[00:45:14] This is all that leading up.
[00:45:16] I forgot that happened in season
[00:45:17] two.
[00:45:18] You're right.
[00:45:18] Because it's in the rain.
[00:45:19] The one's very little.
[00:45:20] Well, you've got the show guide
[00:45:22] open, John.
[00:45:22] You should all have the show guide
[00:45:24] open because you're not going to
[00:45:25] remember the scenes otherwise.
[00:45:26] I can't do it.
[00:45:26] I don't want to play this alone.
[00:45:28] Well, I suppose I could open the
[00:45:29] show guide.
[00:45:30] I just...
[00:45:30] I'll lose the outline.
[00:45:32] John, can you cue the sequence
[00:45:33] again?
[00:45:34] Sure.
[00:45:35] Yeah.
[00:45:35] I'm only happy when it rains.
[00:45:39] I want you to stay.
[00:45:43] Caleb Brimbor invites him back.
[00:45:45] Tell me lies.
[00:45:46] Tell me sweet little lies.
[00:45:49] Tell me lies.
[00:45:51] That's a sound on cue if ever
[00:45:53] there was one.
[00:45:54] Open up the dirty window.
[00:45:56] Do what?
[00:45:57] Take that.
[00:46:00] That one I didn't get.
[00:46:01] Don't listen to me far.
[00:46:02] Stop.
[00:46:03] Doesn't look.
[00:46:08] You're all gonna be friends.
[00:46:11] You closed with the white stripes.
[00:46:13] Perfect.
[00:46:13] We're all gonna be friends.
[00:46:16] So we lost a little in the...
[00:46:17] First of all, you got it right.
[00:46:18] It is that scene.
[00:46:19] It is the scene where
[00:46:21] Annatar reveals himself
[00:46:23] as, you know,
[00:46:24] fake Valar agent.
[00:46:26] But are we a little lost
[00:46:27] in the middle there?
[00:46:28] Yeah, yeah.
[00:46:29] I'm not fully
[00:46:31] getting which songs those were.
[00:46:33] It's very literal, right?
[00:46:34] So Fleetwood Mac,
[00:46:35] Little Light,
[00:46:36] like he's lying to him.
[00:46:37] Right, yeah.
[00:46:37] That's got...
[00:46:38] The Natasha Bedingfield song,
[00:46:40] Open Up the Window,
[00:46:41] she says.
[00:46:42] Oh, okay.
[00:46:42] And then spill the wine.
[00:46:44] Eric Burden in the war.
[00:46:45] Remember when the bottle exploded?
[00:46:47] Oh, first stage.
[00:46:47] Oh, that's what that was.
[00:46:48] First stage bottle.
[00:46:49] Nice work.
[00:46:50] Yeah.
[00:46:51] Good.
[00:46:51] That is, I think dense
[00:46:53] is the right word.
[00:46:54] That might be the longest of them.
[00:46:55] Okay.
[00:46:56] We'll see.
[00:46:56] But you got it.
[00:46:57] You all are two for two.
[00:46:59] You have two points.
[00:47:00] Well, John and his show guide,
[00:47:02] I'm telling you.
[00:47:03] Yeah, look,
[00:47:04] I would not be able to remember
[00:47:05] which things are in the episodes.
[00:47:07] And I think if we did that,
[00:47:08] we'd all be sitting here like,
[00:47:09] um, uh.
[00:47:12] And that's not a good podcast.
[00:47:14] Like I said,
[00:47:15] originally intended for a recap podcast.
[00:47:18] Right, right.
[00:47:18] When you were talking about one episode,
[00:47:20] not two months later.
[00:47:21] So episode three,
[00:47:22] The Eagle and the Scepter.
[00:47:24] Cause I got something to tell you.
[00:47:41] And as I hung up the phone,
[00:47:43] it occurred to me.
[00:47:44] He'd grown up just like me.
[00:47:47] My boy was just like me.
[00:47:50] I know that one.
[00:47:52] I don't trust nobody
[00:47:54] and nobody trusts me.
[00:47:56] Stand on the box,
[00:47:58] stomp your feet,
[00:47:58] start clapping,
[00:47:59] got a real good feeling
[00:48:00] something bad about to happen.
[00:48:02] I'm guessing dwarves.
[00:48:04] I was thinking Isildur.
[00:48:06] Well,
[00:48:07] that was my first thought,
[00:48:07] but they haven't gotten back together again.
[00:48:10] But then the,
[00:48:11] the sorry when she stabs him.
[00:48:15] Ah.
[00:48:17] That was also.
[00:48:17] But you're right,
[00:48:18] the dwarf,
[00:48:19] because the dwarf,
[00:48:20] this is the one where.
[00:48:20] He's going to be just like me.
[00:48:21] And yeah,
[00:48:23] yeah,
[00:48:23] yeah.
[00:48:23] That's where I shifted to the dwarves too.
[00:48:26] I like it.
[00:48:26] Okay.
[00:48:27] I get it.
[00:48:28] Yeah.
[00:48:28] Can you,
[00:48:29] can you play it one more time?
[00:48:33] Yeah.
[00:48:33] Okay.
[00:48:42] Sorry.
[00:48:43] Yep.
[00:48:44] Okay.
[00:48:49] Yeah.
[00:48:49] Yeah.
[00:48:51] Good one.
[00:48:52] Good one.
[00:48:52] Just like me.
[00:48:54] Fantastic.
[00:48:55] That's the Durans.
[00:48:56] Yeah.
[00:48:57] I think it has.
[00:48:58] I don't trust nobody and nobody trusts me.
[00:49:01] And this is where Doran four starts saying,
[00:49:04] I don't trust this power.
[00:49:05] Yeah.
[00:49:06] Yeah.
[00:49:06] Yeah.
[00:49:06] Something bad about to happen.
[00:49:08] Got a bad feeling about that.
[00:49:10] Something's bad to happen.
[00:49:11] Yeah.
[00:49:11] Yeah.
[00:49:11] I like it.
[00:49:12] I think the,
[00:49:13] I think you guys are right.
[00:49:13] The dwarves.
[00:49:14] You got it.
[00:49:15] You're three for three.
[00:49:17] Oh,
[00:49:17] are they too easy?
[00:49:18] I feel like I contributed something finally.
[00:49:22] This is like how you slowly iterate your final exam over the semesters,
[00:49:27] changing it to making it harder or easier based on how the students do.
[00:49:31] I'm not great in this one on a curve.
[00:49:32] I can tell you,
[00:49:33] you're getting the actual points.
[00:49:35] This is great.
[00:49:36] Okay.
[00:49:36] This is fun.
[00:49:37] You already heard the beginning.
[00:49:39] We got episode four.
[00:49:41] Eldest.
[00:49:41] I'm the one who sees you home,
[00:49:44] but now I'm lost in the woods.
[00:49:48] And blue eyes blue.
[00:49:50] Tell Rund.
[00:49:51] What's the matter,
[00:49:52] matter?
[00:49:55] What's the matter,
[00:49:56] matter?
[00:49:57] That's the barrel lights.
[00:49:59] My baby's got changed.
[00:50:03] Oh yeah.
[00:50:04] Yeah.
[00:50:04] That's the barrel lights.
[00:50:06] Zombie.
[00:50:07] Zombie.
[00:50:08] There it is.
[00:50:19] Yep.
[00:50:19] The barrel lights.
[00:50:20] Barrel lights all the way.
[00:50:21] Yeah.
[00:50:21] The blue eyes really,
[00:50:23] really did it for me.
[00:50:24] Well,
[00:50:24] and they have chains.
[00:50:25] Yeah.
[00:50:25] Yeah.
[00:50:26] Chains.
[00:50:26] The chains were the.
[00:50:27] The chains and then zombie,
[00:50:29] zombie.
[00:50:29] Right.
[00:50:30] You got,
[00:50:30] you got them all.
[00:50:31] Lost in the woods.
[00:50:32] That's the easy one.
[00:50:33] It's cool that they got the,
[00:50:34] they got the white walkers to play the.
[00:50:40] Not a lot of work out there for the undead.
[00:50:42] It's really great representation.
[00:50:45] Now you're sounding like disc world,
[00:50:46] John.
[00:50:49] All right.
[00:50:51] Episode five.
[00:50:51] That was,
[00:50:52] I've got that one as the easy one,
[00:50:54] right?
[00:50:54] Episode five.
[00:50:55] Halls of stone.
[00:51:12] That's a short one.
[00:51:13] That was really tough.
[00:51:15] The,
[00:51:15] some of them went by so fast.
[00:51:16] I couldn't even understand the words.
[00:51:18] Should we do one more?
[00:51:19] Yeah.
[00:51:19] Yeah.
[00:51:20] Can you redo it?
[00:51:22] That's dwarven.
[00:51:23] I got no,
[00:51:24] I count them.
[00:51:25] I don't know this song.
[00:51:27] I don't know this song.
[00:51:29] I can see.
[00:51:35] Is this the,
[00:51:36] um,
[00:51:36] dwarven,
[00:51:37] uh,
[00:51:38] light shafts?
[00:51:39] Is this Durin digging?
[00:51:40] Yeah.
[00:51:41] The cold open,
[00:51:41] I think.
[00:51:42] Yeah.
[00:51:43] The cold open.
[00:51:44] Uh,
[00:51:45] he,
[00:51:45] Durin gets the ring on.
[00:51:47] He can see out the window,
[00:51:48] right?
[00:51:48] Everything.
[00:51:49] Yep.
[00:51:49] Yeah.
[00:51:50] I can see the mountain.
[00:51:51] Yeah.
[00:51:52] Yeah.
[00:51:52] And then he opens up the,
[00:51:53] the window.
[00:51:53] So yeah.
[00:51:54] Right.
[00:51:55] Do we get it?
[00:51:56] Best guess.
[00:51:57] Is that your final answer?
[00:51:57] Yeah.
[00:51:58] By the way,
[00:51:58] that's do a leap of new rules.
[00:52:00] I've got new rules.
[00:52:01] I'll count.
[00:52:02] Okay.
[00:52:03] Saying so.
[00:52:04] Okay.
[00:52:04] You can hear that through all the auto tune.
[00:52:06] Yeah.
[00:52:06] Um,
[00:52:07] yeah,
[00:52:08] you got it.
[00:52:08] I don't remember if that's actually the,
[00:52:10] or I don't know what that's auto tune,
[00:52:11] but it's something like that.
[00:52:12] Um,
[00:52:15] I like that song a lot actually.
[00:52:17] Um,
[00:52:18] yeah,
[00:52:18] you got it.
[00:52:18] I don't know.
[00:52:19] Is that the cold open?
[00:52:20] It's definitely the scene where he's talking about,
[00:52:21] I can see the mountain.
[00:52:23] Right.
[00:52:23] Um,
[00:52:25] like,
[00:52:25] I think I made that one,
[00:52:27] you know,
[00:52:27] the digging in the dirt,
[00:52:28] a little too easy.
[00:52:28] Maybe you're five for five.
[00:52:31] Let's move on.
[00:52:32] Only three more.
[00:52:33] Episode six.
[00:52:35] Where is he?
[00:52:53] Stewards.
[00:52:54] You're nobody till somebody loves you.
[00:52:58] Stewards.
[00:52:59] Oh,
[00:52:59] okay.
[00:53:03] Yeah.
[00:53:04] Yeah.
[00:53:04] Yeah.
[00:53:04] Yeah.
[00:53:04] There it is.
[00:53:05] Yep.
[00:53:05] Yep.
[00:53:05] Yep.
[00:53:06] Yep.
[00:53:06] Yep.
[00:53:06] Yep.
[00:53:06] You're gonna run away from it now.
[00:53:09] I'm gonna stand here and fight with you.
[00:53:13] Yeah.
[00:53:13] We're not going to leave.
[00:53:14] We're going to fight.
[00:53:15] Yeah.
[00:53:15] The nobody one was really good.
[00:53:17] Yeah.
[00:53:17] Really good.
[00:53:17] Nice work there.
[00:53:18] Kiss me.
[00:53:19] That was,
[00:53:19] uh,
[00:53:20] that was right on.
[00:53:21] Yep.
[00:53:22] You got it.
[00:53:23] You got it.
[00:53:24] It's the stores.
[00:53:25] Um,
[00:53:26] yeah.
[00:53:27] Yeah.
[00:53:27] And that one's like three different mini interactions,
[00:53:30] right?
[00:53:30] Because it's the,
[00:53:31] yes,
[00:53:32] the,
[00:53:32] the boss.
[00:53:34] What is the groomed?
[00:53:35] Is that?
[00:53:35] I don't remember her name.
[00:53:36] The groomed.
[00:53:37] Like,
[00:53:37] Oh,
[00:53:37] we're not going to leave.
[00:53:38] And then it was the flirty flirterson interaction.
[00:53:43] And then like the,
[00:53:44] this is my fault kind of stuff.
[00:53:46] No,
[00:53:47] we're going to fight for it.
[00:53:48] That kind of stuff.
[00:53:48] Right.
[00:53:49] Um,
[00:53:49] cool.
[00:53:49] Episode seven doomed to die.
[00:53:54] Wait for it.
[00:53:54] Wait for it.
[00:53:58] Wait for it.
[00:53:59] Wait for it.
[00:54:40] Yeah.
[00:54:45] Yeah.
[00:54:46] And so on,
[00:54:46] Caleb rimbore.
[00:54:48] Yeah.
[00:54:48] This is,
[00:54:49] this is a combination of the cold open for,
[00:54:51] or maybe just the open.
[00:54:52] I don't remember if it was cold.
[00:54:53] The opening scene where he's like,
[00:54:56] Hey,
[00:54:56] wait,
[00:54:56] don't wait for perfection.
[00:54:57] And then he puts a little line on the candle.
[00:55:00] And then we go to the later interaction where he's like,
[00:55:03] who are you?
[00:55:03] Oh,
[00:55:04] he's like,
[00:55:04] Oh,
[00:55:04] you're him.
[00:55:05] And he goes,
[00:55:06] say my name,
[00:55:06] say my name.
[00:55:07] You know,
[00:55:07] maybe that would have been a good one in there too.
[00:55:10] Oh yeah.
[00:55:10] It could have been.
[00:55:11] Yeah.
[00:55:11] I didn't recognize as many songs.
[00:55:13] It was just those,
[00:55:13] uh,
[00:55:14] this couple of,
[00:55:14] of trigger ones.
[00:55:17] You don't know Hamilton.
[00:55:19] You don't know Hall and Oates.
[00:55:20] I've only seen Hamilton once and Hall and Oates.
[00:55:23] I do know,
[00:55:23] but I didn't recognize the,
[00:55:25] I don't know unless you,
[00:55:26] can you play it again,
[00:55:27] John?
[00:55:30] This is Hamilton.
[00:55:31] Okay.
[00:55:31] I don't know it that well.
[00:55:32] Yeah.
[00:55:32] I've only seen it once.
[00:55:33] So next,
[00:55:34] you make my dreams.
[00:55:39] All right.
[00:55:39] Cause you're right on the candle.
[00:55:40] There it is.
[00:55:40] Yep.
[00:55:40] I like it.
[00:55:44] He blew the thing through the wall.
[00:55:45] He worked it out.
[00:55:46] He worked it out.
[00:55:52] Blood on my hands.
[00:55:54] And he's bloody all of a sudden.
[00:55:55] He was not before.
[00:55:59] And the world is on fire.
[00:56:05] All right.
[00:56:09] Sauron introduced himself.
[00:56:11] Yeah.
[00:56:11] That's perfect.
[00:56:13] Sauron song.
[00:56:16] Good.
[00:56:16] Okay.
[00:56:18] Okay.
[00:56:20] So,
[00:56:20] you know that song,
[00:56:21] right?
[00:56:21] Yeah.
[00:56:21] Hell yeah.
[00:56:22] The devil.
[00:56:23] Stones.
[00:56:24] So the funny thing,
[00:56:25] Oh,
[00:56:26] by the way that the blood on my hands,
[00:56:27] it's because that's when he realizes that he,
[00:56:31] Sauron had cut his hand and put his blood.
[00:56:33] Oh,
[00:56:34] it's real.
[00:56:35] Okay.
[00:56:36] And the funny thing is the no doubt to just a girl,
[00:56:40] the like,
[00:56:41] take this ribbon off my eyes was originally supposed to be,
[00:56:45] um,
[00:56:46] what's the Johnny Nash or Jimmy cliff.
[00:56:49] I can see clearly now.
[00:56:51] And then John just like saying it in the middle.
[00:56:55] I had,
[00:56:56] I had it made and everything.
[00:56:57] Oh my gosh.
[00:56:58] I think it was in the,
[00:56:59] the episode,
[00:56:59] the main episode.
[00:57:00] And I'm just like,
[00:57:01] going to change that one.
[00:57:04] I don't remember doing that.
[00:57:06] So I make these like immediate,
[00:57:07] I make them immediately after I watched the episode.
[00:57:09] Right.
[00:57:10] So,
[00:57:10] wow.
[00:57:11] It was too late.
[00:57:12] Um,
[00:57:13] wow.
[00:57:13] Seven for seven.
[00:57:14] I thought I had you with,
[00:57:16] was it maybe the second one or the third one,
[00:57:18] but one more episode eight,
[00:57:21] shadow and flame.
[00:57:26] Is this when I don't is wearing.
[00:57:46] Nenya.
[00:58:04] Sound on saying,
[00:58:06] guess who's back to trailer park.
[00:58:09] I can't,
[00:58:10] I can't go.
[00:58:11] You got it.
[00:58:11] You got the verse.
[00:58:12] the whole season.
[00:58:15] The only time anybody was wanting to give peace a chance was at our after he put on Nenya.
[00:58:20] Yeah.
[00:58:22] And I knew that song.
[00:58:23] So that helps.
[00:58:24] All right.
[00:58:26] Is that your final answer?
[00:58:28] Yes.
[00:58:29] You are correct.
[00:58:30] Woo.
[00:58:31] Wow.
[00:58:32] Eight for eight.
[00:58:33] I actually got two.
[00:58:34] Three,
[00:58:35] uh,
[00:58:36] three heads are better than one.
[00:58:37] I think.
[00:58:38] Yeah.
[00:58:38] Maybe I should have.
[00:58:39] Oh,
[00:58:39] in this case,
[00:58:40] I should have had us compete.
[00:58:42] We were debating whether we should work as a team or not.
[00:58:44] No,
[00:58:45] it's more fun.
[00:58:45] Team is much more fun.
[00:58:46] Yeah.
[00:58:47] Thanks to everybody.
[00:58:48] That was fun.
[00:58:48] It was fun to compile them to.
[00:58:50] Um,
[00:58:50] gosh,
[00:58:51] the amount of time you spent on that,
[00:58:52] Mark,
[00:58:53] that's just really,
[00:58:54] I don't want to talk about it.
[00:58:57] It's really dedicated.
[00:58:59] He's,
[00:58:59] he's,
[00:58:59] he's edging into the Keller Brimbor,
[00:59:02] uh,
[00:59:02] school of,
[00:59:03] of crafts.
[00:59:04] We only made a light.
[00:59:06] I think you need to make one more to complete the set.
[00:59:09] Rule them all.
[00:59:09] Oh,
[00:59:10] that's right.
[00:59:11] You know,
[00:59:11] I kept waiting for a scene where I could use number nine,
[00:59:16] number nine from Beatles.
[00:59:18] Right.
[00:59:18] And it never happened.
[00:59:19] Um,
[00:59:20] the,
[00:59:22] as you know,
[00:59:22] we pre-recorded so much,
[00:59:24] nevermind the music.
[00:59:25] So I haven't been having to generate content and I feel this,
[00:59:28] this vacuole.
[00:59:29] Should I,
[00:59:30] should I write songs?
[00:59:31] Should I work on the album I'm recording?
[00:59:32] No,
[00:59:33] I have to make music.
[00:59:38] I just wanted to say,
[00:59:40] if you hear the amount of effort Mark put in for this bit,
[00:59:45] you,
[00:59:45] you better believe he's putting even more into his show with Nicole.
[00:59:50] So please,
[00:59:50] if you enjoy this segment,
[00:59:51] go over to his feed.
[00:59:53] You can find the link in the show notes,
[00:59:54] check the link tree and go listen to nevermind the music because it is even
[00:59:58] more detailed than this.
[00:59:59] And they are doing a great job over there.
[01:00:02] Clearly these are folks who know their lore.
[01:00:05] It's true.
[01:00:06] Now,
[01:00:06] Mark,
[01:00:06] you wanted to pivot.
[01:00:07] Yeah,
[01:00:08] but I know we're about to move on,
[01:00:09] but,
[01:00:10] and I actually have musical comments,
[01:00:12] but I just wanted to say,
[01:00:12] it re I was reminded when Maryland made the comment,
[01:00:16] like at our is the only one who wanted to give peace a chance.
[01:00:19] And I realized like,
[01:00:20] I think at ours,
[01:00:21] my favorite part of the show.
[01:00:22] And I'm reminded of.
[01:00:24] Uh,
[01:00:24] to foundation.
[01:00:25] Yep.
[01:00:26] That.
[01:00:27] For those of you that don't know those books like me,
[01:00:31] but also don't know the show.
[01:00:33] Well,
[01:00:33] there's this idea of this genetic empire sort of thing where like the empire
[01:00:38] is ruled by clones of the empire.
[01:00:39] And I,
[01:00:40] that was my favorite part is my favorite part of that series.
[01:00:43] And apparently that was invented whole cloth.
[01:00:46] And I'm just wondering if,
[01:00:48] if sort of the best parts of this show are the ones where they're not
[01:00:53] servicing Jackson.
[01:00:54] They're not having to like fill in awkward gaps,
[01:00:58] but like,
[01:00:59] I don't know the during three during four storyline.
[01:01:03] Like,
[01:01:03] I know that storyline was rough maybe,
[01:01:05] but like the emotionality there,
[01:01:07] the emotionality of Adar,
[01:01:08] like are the things that they had the least.
[01:01:13] Some of the best things in this show.
[01:01:17] I got our origin.
[01:01:18] It's a good point.
[01:01:19] I'm seeing it in the future.
[01:01:20] It's a good point where they have some,
[01:01:22] some latitude and they're,
[01:01:24] they're not like you said,
[01:01:26] doing fan service or being constrained by,
[01:01:29] uh,
[01:01:30] lore,
[01:01:31] other lore issues where they can actually,
[01:01:33] where the writers can actually sit down,
[01:01:36] think about the character and then breathe life into that character.
[01:01:39] And that character's motivations without being boxed in by a bunch of other
[01:01:43] stuff.
[01:01:44] And yet,
[01:01:45] Adar story was absolutely to the lore.
[01:01:50] Perfect.
[01:01:51] In terms of how Tolkien first envisioned the origin of orcs,
[01:01:56] but then subsequently wrestled with it.
[01:01:59] So I think that was the beauty of it is that they were following the beats,
[01:02:05] if you will,
[01:02:06] but doing something completely new and totally unexpected with it.
[01:02:09] And then throwing in a daddy orc and a mommy orc,
[01:02:12] baby orc that would,
[01:02:14] you know,
[01:02:15] icing on the cake.
[01:02:17] Yeah.
[01:02:17] Yep.
[01:02:19] And I think that's where they excelled is they didn't need to shove all of
[01:02:24] that right at us.
[01:02:24] We just needed that one quick scene and it gives us depth and it gives us
[01:02:31] connectivity to the written words and gives us something for,
[01:02:35] you know,
[01:02:36] Glug's character to be a little bit more.
[01:02:39] So when he does meet his demise,
[01:02:41] it means something a little bit more.
[01:02:43] Um,
[01:02:44] so yeah,
[01:02:45] that,
[01:02:45] that was really good story building story,
[01:02:48] story world building.
[01:02:50] So smart.
[01:02:51] And again,
[01:02:52] that's where,
[01:02:52] where I was going back to,
[01:02:53] they thought about this season.
[01:02:55] Yes.
[01:02:56] And they planned the season out and they,
[01:02:59] they knew the beats that they wanted to hit.
[01:03:01] And then they knew how to break the,
[01:03:02] uh,
[01:03:03] episodes so that those things played at the right moments.
[01:03:07] I guess part of the reason why I'm really optimistic for season three is that I,
[01:03:11] I have the feeling that they can only get better from here.
[01:03:14] They can get worse.
[01:03:16] Well,
[01:03:17] that's all right.
[01:03:17] That's true.
[01:03:18] I'm trying to be optimistic,
[01:03:19] but you know,
[01:03:20] just,
[01:03:20] you know,
[01:03:20] their trajectory.
[01:03:22] Yeah.
[01:03:24] They're headed for,
[01:03:25] they're headed for good things.
[01:03:26] Yep.
[01:03:27] Well,
[01:03:27] I'm liking it.
[01:03:28] I'm loving it.
[01:03:29] And,
[01:03:29] uh,
[01:03:29] that was a lot of fun,
[01:03:30] Mark.
[01:03:31] Thank you for leading us through that game.
[01:03:32] Yeah.
[01:03:33] Thank you so much.
[01:03:33] That was really,
[01:03:34] can I talk more seriously about music?
[01:03:36] Actually,
[01:03:37] we are going to now move into,
[01:03:39] so let me introduce a section here.
[01:03:41] Uh,
[01:03:41] we're going to move into our wrap up topic.
[01:03:44] So what I've done here is I've taken all the feedback we've gotten and I've organized it into just a few major topics.
[01:03:52] And the first one I did was music because I wasn't sure if you were going to do the whole one with us.
[01:03:57] So I wanted to give you the opportunity to talk about that before we,
[01:03:59] uh,
[01:04:00] went on.
[01:04:00] Quick shout out to Nancy,
[01:04:02] our hand of the pod.
[01:04:04] Definitely.
[01:04:04] Who all season has been organizing the,
[01:04:06] uh,
[01:04:08] feedback for us in the document like she did for house of the dragon.
[01:04:11] And then she pre,
[01:04:12] she is spending some time with her family right now.
[01:04:15] They're having,
[01:04:15] they're out in the world,
[01:04:16] having some fun.
[01:04:16] And she was able to pull a bunch of this together so that then when John,
[01:04:20] when you went to go make your outline for the school show,
[01:04:24] you had that resource available to you.
[01:04:26] And so just Nancy,
[01:04:28] thank you so much.
[01:04:28] We hope you're having a lovely vacation.
[01:04:31] Absolutely.
[01:04:31] We just,
[01:04:31] your absence was felt not,
[01:04:34] and we're glad you're going to be,
[01:04:35] you have done us and our community such a huge service.
[01:04:41] Um,
[01:04:41] and it means a lot to us that you are having fun and doing this.
[01:04:45] This is your way to contribute.
[01:04:47] And we're so glad to have your help.
[01:04:49] And it just makes our lives so much easier week to week when we know that we can rely on a good,
[01:04:55] clean feedback documents.
[01:04:56] Thank you.
[01:04:57] Thank you.
[01:04:57] Thank you.
[01:04:57] So if you're wondering why it's less organized tonight and not quite as polished,
[01:05:01] it's because I did it.
[01:05:04] You started with a good basis.
[01:05:06] I did start with it and then I completely moved it into this document.
[01:05:09] So anyway,
[01:05:11] let's talk about the music of bear McCreary.
[01:05:14] So my idea with all this is I want to,
[01:05:16] I want to give everyone room to have a free flowing conversation before we get to the feedback with certain things.
[01:05:22] So Mark,
[01:05:23] you are our music man.
[01:05:25] You are our,
[01:05:26] our expert here.
[01:05:27] Can you tell us what you thought overall of the music this season?
[01:05:31] And then maybe I know you said you had some more specific thoughts.
[01:05:35] I mean,
[01:05:35] I love the music in the show.
[01:05:36] I think it's excellent.
[01:05:38] I,
[01:05:39] I don't have that much more to say about it than that in terms of just the general I've,
[01:05:44] I've enjoyed bear stuff ever.
[01:05:47] I mean,
[01:05:47] going back to,
[01:05:48] I guess the earliest stuff would have been either Battlestar or Walking Dead,
[01:05:52] whatever the first,
[01:05:53] whichever one of those came out first,
[01:05:55] but always been a fan.
[01:05:56] I think it hits the right notes.
[01:05:59] I,
[01:05:59] I don't have much more to say than that.
[01:06:01] I mean,
[01:06:01] you all have,
[01:06:02] have interviewed him and covered a lot of this.
[01:06:05] I mean,
[01:06:05] he's,
[01:06:05] he's doing the things that you sort of,
[01:06:12] I want the person putting in that extra mile to use a palindrome or to,
[01:06:18] when he was talking about the,
[01:06:20] the invented software to do the score for foundation,
[01:06:23] like just that.
[01:06:24] Yeah.
[01:06:24] I,
[01:06:25] I love the stuff that like I,
[01:06:27] so I'm a,
[01:06:27] I'm a composer by training.
[01:06:29] That's what my actual field is.
[01:06:30] That's what,
[01:06:31] you know,
[01:06:31] I am academically and also professionally,
[01:06:33] which sometimes means I write pop songs for the band I'm in or the musical I
[01:06:37] wrote,
[01:06:37] but also means I've written sort of quote,
[01:06:39] serious classical music.
[01:06:40] And I,
[01:06:41] whether,
[01:06:41] whichever type of thing I'm doing,
[01:06:43] I'm always putting in stuff.
[01:06:44] No one,
[01:06:44] but me will ever hear.
[01:06:46] And that's what gets you through the day.
[01:06:48] And so not only to find somebody that's doing that for a show like this,
[01:06:53] putting the same care that the writers are presumably putting in that
[01:06:57] Tolkien put in and also willing to tell people about it.
[01:07:01] I mean,
[01:07:01] just the fact that he's willing to talk about this stuff,
[01:07:04] big fan of the music for sure.
[01:07:07] my observations are more about the in universe music.
[01:07:11] Actually,
[01:07:12] my specific observations aside from just admiration.
[01:07:15] Okay.
[01:07:16] I,
[01:07:16] I find myself like,
[01:07:20] I don't,
[01:07:20] I music,
[01:07:21] I'm distracted by music.
[01:07:22] If I focus too much on it,
[01:07:23] like I will just listen to the music and figure out what kind of harmonies
[01:07:29] resolving to what kind of harmony.
[01:07:31] And I,
[01:07:32] I actually kind of almost turn off my adult analytical brain when I'm watching
[01:07:37] TV or movies,
[01:07:38] because I'm not a film composer and I've done a little bit of it,
[01:07:41] but that's not my main training.
[01:07:42] And it's really like,
[01:07:43] this is the one type of creative output I can just enjoy and not feel like I
[01:07:48] have to wonder if it would make a good,
[01:07:50] nevermind the music episode.
[01:07:51] Um,
[01:07:53] so what I most noticed this season was the music occurring within the world,
[01:08:00] which you all have talked about on your podcast a few times.
[01:08:04] I,
[01:08:04] I know there's a great podcast between,
[01:08:07] uh,
[01:08:08] on rings and rituals with,
[01:08:09] with John and Marilyn talking about the sort of cultural aspects of music and
[01:08:15] how each sort of not necessarily if we even said the races,
[01:08:20] but each like cultural group has their own musical cues.
[01:08:24] And you were thinking a lot of score,
[01:08:25] but I'm thinking more of like,
[01:08:29] I can't help but think about the historical realities of music.
[01:08:33] Now that this is,
[01:08:34] this is getting a little,
[01:08:35] a little more deep dive my podcast.
[01:08:37] So stop me if I'm going too far.
[01:08:38] No,
[01:08:39] but you're a Laura,
[01:08:39] you're in the Laura Hound community.
[01:08:40] You're in the Laura Hound.
[01:08:41] This is your,
[01:08:42] you're bringing it.
[01:08:43] This is what we,
[01:08:44] you know,
[01:08:44] this is what we enjoyed so much about hearing your podcast.
[01:08:48] And as a classically trained musician,
[01:08:49] I am absolutely with you.
[01:08:51] So carry on.
[01:08:52] So on that note,
[01:08:52] it makes me think of the Protestant reformation.
[01:08:55] Perfect.
[01:08:55] Boom.
[01:08:56] There he is.
[01:08:57] And podcast.
[01:08:58] It makes me think of the Protestant reformation and the council of Trent.
[01:09:01] And it makes me think of post-slavery colonialism in the Caribbean.
[01:09:07] And so what I mean by that,
[01:09:08] let me explain those things.
[01:09:10] Why does Trinidad and Tobago have the steel pan as an instrument?
[01:09:14] Right.
[01:09:15] Why the steel drums,
[01:09:16] people sometimes call them,
[01:09:18] but the steel pan it's built from oil drums,
[01:09:20] from shipping that washed shore because the percussion instruments were taken away from the slaves.
[01:09:26] And I had no idea about this.
[01:09:28] Still like the African traditional instruments had been taken away in a lot of cases,
[01:09:31] which is something that the English colonists did more.
[01:09:35] Whereas like you would see Spanish colonies,
[01:09:38] for example,
[01:09:39] which in some ways had certain like worse aspects for the,
[01:09:43] for the enslaved people living in those colonies,
[01:09:46] but also they were maybe let allowed more of their original culture to remain,
[01:09:50] for example.
[01:09:50] So that moment,
[01:09:53] that weird arbitrary decision by some governor of the colony of Trinidad and Tobago hundreds of years ago,
[01:10:01] led to hundreds of years later,
[01:10:03] entire types of music existing,
[01:10:06] right?
[01:10:06] Calypso or panoramas,
[01:10:09] steel pan festivals,
[01:10:10] things like that.
[01:10:10] Or the Protestant Reformation encroaching on the Catholic church.
[01:10:17] And they,
[01:10:17] in the 1500s,
[01:10:18] they have this council of Trent and they decide whether they should allow polyphonic music.
[01:10:23] Yeah.
[01:10:24] So what does that mean?
[01:10:25] That means voice vocal music in the church where people are singing,
[01:10:29] kind of answering each other,
[01:10:31] singing kind of complex lines on top of it,
[01:10:34] on top of each other.
[01:10:35] It was thought at the time that it was obscuring the true message of,
[01:10:40] the church really,
[01:10:42] and that they were trying to do what,
[01:10:44] what they call the counter-reformation,
[01:10:45] right?
[01:10:45] Where they're like pushing back against the Reformation.
[01:10:47] Let's,
[01:10:47] let's make things more appealing to people.
[01:10:50] And,
[01:10:50] and first of all,
[01:10:51] I shouldn't even get too distracted.
[01:10:52] Like the fact that we associate church music with vocal music is because way before that,
[01:10:57] they said instruments don't belong in the church.
[01:11:00] The particularities of Catholicism disallowed anything outside of a bell to be rung within a church.
[01:11:06] So hundreds of years later,
[01:11:08] this guy,
[01:11:09] Giovanni Perluigi Palestrina walks in and says,
[01:11:12] I'm going to write the most beautiful polyphonic piece.
[01:11:15] And I'm going to dedicate it to you,
[01:11:16] Pope Marcellus.
[01:11:17] Yeah.
[01:11:18] And he,
[01:11:19] not quite single-handedly,
[01:11:21] but he convinced the church to allow this kind of music.
[01:11:24] And from that,
[01:11:24] we have Renaissance polyphony.
[01:11:27] We have Bach.
[01:11:28] We have a lot of stuff that then became super important to music history,
[01:11:35] all because these guys in a room made a decision about the rules.
[01:11:40] And so why did I do that long side quest here?
[01:11:43] Even though you're doing that,
[01:11:44] my mind is doing that.
[01:11:45] I'm doing the mind blown gif right now.
[01:11:48] Because I'm thinking,
[01:11:50] okay,
[01:11:51] the elves are singing choral music.
[01:11:52] Right.
[01:11:53] Why?
[01:11:54] Right.
[01:11:54] Huh.
[01:11:54] I know that I listen to different music mostly than my dad,
[01:11:59] and certainly different music mostly than his dad or his dad's dad.
[01:12:03] What if I lived 5,000 years?
[01:12:06] Would I ever,
[01:12:07] would they ever stop playing my music on the radio?
[01:12:09] Would they just only ever,
[01:12:11] would we still be listening to the Beatles 5,000 years later,
[01:12:14] if the boomers never left the mortal coil?
[01:12:18] Right.
[01:12:19] No,
[01:12:19] but think of,
[01:12:20] no.
[01:12:20] So this is what I'm thinking about.
[01:12:21] Like everyone in Congress.
[01:12:22] Beautiful vocal piece.
[01:12:25] As the representative boomer,
[01:12:27] I can think of worse things.
[01:12:29] That's right.
[01:12:29] So can I,
[01:12:30] I said on another podcast revolver,
[01:12:32] probably my favorite album,
[01:12:33] but I think about how,
[01:12:36] what if what we're watching,
[01:12:37] and I don't know,
[01:12:38] is bear is bear thinking about this when we're watching and listening to that
[01:12:42] vocal piece,
[01:12:42] is that vocal piece by the elves 10,000 years old because,
[01:12:48] or 5,000 years old,
[01:12:49] because literally the person who wrote it might still be in that choir.
[01:12:52] Whereas everything else.
[01:12:53] But then when I think of the walking song for the,
[01:12:57] not the stewards,
[01:12:58] the Harfoots,
[01:12:59] that's actually,
[01:13:00] I actually found that moment kind of absurd as a musician.
[01:13:03] There's no way I could have an oral,
[01:13:05] I could write lyrics as an oral tradition that would not be so messed up.
[01:13:10] I can't even get the vocalists in bands that I've played in,
[01:13:14] including myself to remember the words to the lyrics,
[01:13:17] let alone directions,
[01:13:20] specific directions,
[01:13:21] but the elves,
[01:13:22] they would remember the directions because it's the same person,
[01:13:25] right?
[01:13:25] We haven't had hundreds of generations or whatever of,
[01:13:28] of Harfoots.
[01:13:29] Um,
[01:13:30] so I think of these things or the stone singing.
[01:13:32] Why is the stone singing so beautifully dissonant?
[01:13:35] If you listen,
[01:13:36] not just when Disa singing,
[01:13:37] but when Disa singing with her,
[01:13:40] her other stone singer,
[01:13:42] the notes that they're singing are extremely clashing of one another.
[01:13:46] Maybe that's just because it's magic,
[01:13:48] but what if there's a historical sonar?
[01:13:52] but why those dissonances?
[01:13:53] Is there a cultural reason?
[01:13:55] Was there a council of Trent where during the first said it's illegal to play
[01:14:00] thirds,
[01:14:01] all,
[01:14:01] all intervals must be seconds and sevenths and dissonant.
[01:14:05] Like there's,
[01:14:07] I feel like if Tolkien were a musician,
[01:14:09] he would have figured this stuff out.
[01:14:10] And so I love that the musical things that emerge in this world feel different
[01:14:15] and maybe different from one another.
[01:14:18] Like that we have this gnarly chord with the,
[01:14:22] the dwarves that we would never hear in the,
[01:14:25] in the elf world.
[01:14:26] And you can almost,
[01:14:28] if you're somebody like me,
[01:14:29] which,
[01:14:30] you know,
[01:14:30] sorry.
[01:14:31] Um,
[01:14:32] I I'm a weirdo when it comes to this stuff.
[01:14:34] Like I'm imagining that there's a reason for all these things and a world.
[01:14:37] And I think bears music is sort of allowing for that.
[01:14:42] And that doesn't mean that you have to create a new,
[01:14:44] like I'm a big wheel of time fan.
[01:14:47] I like the show,
[01:14:47] but also like going,
[01:14:48] I'm a wheel of time fan from being 13,
[01:14:51] reading those books.
[01:14:52] Right.
[01:14:52] Went back,
[01:14:53] you know,
[01:14:53] when they were only halfway finished the wheel of time TV series goes in a
[01:14:57] completely different direction where Tom Maryland walks on with a literal
[01:15:02] acoustic guitar.
[01:15:03] They did not go,
[01:15:05] well,
[01:15:05] let's do this faux Celtic thing.
[01:15:07] Let's sort of like this imagined middle ages.
[01:15:10] No,
[01:15:10] he's playing a guitar,
[01:15:11] an instrument that has really only existed for a few hundred years.
[01:15:14] And in its modern form that we saw on screen,
[01:15:16] probably only 150 years.
[01:15:18] And,
[01:15:19] um,
[01:15:19] they're just like,
[01:15:20] let's do an acoustic pop song.
[01:15:22] The witchers like that too.
[01:15:23] Although they maybe use a lit,
[01:15:25] but a lute,
[01:15:25] excuse me,
[01:15:25] but they're writing like pop songs.
[01:15:27] And those music,
[01:15:29] those music supervisors and composers are going in a different direction.
[01:15:32] This,
[01:15:33] this show feels like it's kind of creating a little world.
[01:15:36] And bear,
[01:15:37] I want you to figure out what happens when the elves go to Valinor.
[01:15:42] Or does the music go with them?
[01:15:43] Or does the next,
[01:15:44] like,
[01:15:44] what does it mean to have 5,000 year old composers that are still alive?
[01:15:47] Anyways,
[01:15:48] thank you for entertaining that.
[01:15:49] That was a long diatribe.
[01:15:51] That's what I was thinking this season.
[01:15:52] I mean,
[01:15:53] you have me thinking a lot about this now,
[01:15:55] like the,
[01:15:55] the elves that,
[01:15:56] because,
[01:15:57] because a lot of the elvish population that was in middle earth in the first
[01:16:00] age isn't there anymore,
[01:16:01] but that's largely because of violence.
[01:16:04] But a lot of them went back to Valinor.
[01:16:06] Right,
[01:16:06] right,
[01:16:07] right.
[01:16:07] A lot,
[01:16:07] either they went back willingly or it was violence.
[01:16:10] It's not like here where we have a,
[01:16:12] a routine passing of the mantle.
[01:16:15] And so that's why it's so different.
[01:16:17] And in any case,
[01:16:18] the,
[01:16:18] the premise is that the song is always present in the hearts of any elf.
[01:16:23] So time doesn't really matter in that case.
[01:16:26] And that they will hear the song sung and they will know it instantly and sing
[01:16:29] it as well.
[01:16:30] Not because they were hearing it sung in Lindon,
[01:16:32] but because it's sort of embedded in them.
[01:16:35] I also think that giving a little more credit to oral culture,
[01:16:40] they might remember this,
[01:16:41] the lyrics certainly better than a 21st century band might,
[01:16:46] because they don't rely on,
[01:16:48] on writing.
[01:16:49] They rely on listening and memorizing.
[01:16:52] And if they know that the purpose of the lyric is to make sure they get to the
[01:16:57] right places at the right time,
[01:16:59] then it becomes important as well.
[01:17:02] It's interesting though,
[01:17:03] that Poppy called it her mother's walking song,
[01:17:06] which implies that her mother created it,
[01:17:08] but we now know it had to have been created by somebody else prior.
[01:17:13] Now,
[01:17:13] maybe it was her mother's grandfather who started it off,
[01:17:17] but still you set off all kinds of questions in my mind.
[01:17:21] And then finally the dwarves,
[01:17:22] I thought the dissonance was because they were in a situation where they were
[01:17:27] trying to shift something,
[01:17:29] you know,
[01:17:30] trying to send out something that would make an alteration.
[01:17:33] If you think about what she sounded like when they were all singing together,
[01:17:36] uh,
[01:17:37] to implore the mountain,
[01:17:39] to return the bodies of the miners with the breath still in them,
[01:17:43] completely different tonality.
[01:17:45] Uh,
[01:17:45] very,
[01:17:46] but there,
[01:17:46] there's a functional reason and like a source.
[01:17:49] Right.
[01:17:49] It's not just,
[01:17:50] but they're different functions.
[01:17:52] My,
[01:17:52] my thought on the,
[01:17:53] the door of,
[01:17:54] uh,
[01:17:54] with that,
[01:17:55] uh,
[01:17:55] the stone singing thing was to set out,
[01:17:59] uh,
[01:17:59] a resonance pattern or vibrations that if they're at different frequencies is,
[01:18:05] if I'm using the right word,
[01:18:06] I'm nervous now talking about music.
[01:18:08] Um,
[01:18:09] that those would,
[01:18:11] uh,
[01:18:11] just like a sonar,
[01:18:12] uh,
[01:18:13] would work.
[01:18:15] Different sounds are going to come back and they're going to reflect in
[01:18:19] different ways based on the density of the material or the cavernous
[01:18:23] shape.
[01:18:24] Um,
[01:18:25] so if you're sending out a whole bunch of sonar pulses and then one of them
[01:18:28] hits something that reflects right back while the next one over goes
[01:18:33] through and keeps going down another chamber and then hits a different kind
[01:18:36] of material and comes back,
[01:18:37] you're going to hear back those different,
[01:18:39] um,
[01:18:40] frequency vibration things.
[01:18:42] And that's why she has an affinity with bats.
[01:18:45] Yeah,
[01:18:46] there you go.
[01:18:46] That works.
[01:18:47] Use quarter tones,
[01:18:49] you cowards.
[01:18:50] Um,
[01:18:51] so I,
[01:18:52] sorry,
[01:18:52] I just wanted to go back to elves for a minute.
[01:18:54] Because now I,
[01:18:55] you have me thinking about something Nicole said on your podcast about grief
[01:18:59] and scheduled and unscheduled events,
[01:19:02] right?
[01:19:02] Scheduled and unscheduled losses.
[01:19:05] I'm just thinking of,
[01:19:06] you know,
[01:19:06] the,
[01:19:06] the Harfoots are going to have all these,
[01:19:08] and the dwarves too,
[01:19:10] are going to have all these scheduled losses and they're going to pass
[01:19:13] down this,
[01:19:14] this tradition and elves only have unscheduled losses.
[01:19:20] They only have that because they are serial,
[01:19:23] serial longevity.
[01:19:25] And so what does that do to the way music is passed down?
[01:19:29] Is that in that the only time you lose someone,
[01:19:31] it is a tragedy.
[01:19:33] Well,
[01:19:33] maybe not if they go back to Valenor,
[01:19:35] but you got what I,
[01:19:35] yeah,
[01:19:36] yeah.
[01:19:37] It's unexpected at any rate.
[01:19:38] Yeah.
[01:19:39] And it's also touches on my constant question of if elves has such perfect
[01:19:43] memories,
[01:19:44] why do they need to write things down?
[01:19:48] Right.
[01:19:48] If Celebrimbor scrolls being burned,
[01:19:51] you could make the case that only Celebrimbor knew what was written on them.
[01:19:56] But if other people had read them,
[01:19:58] if their memory is that retentive,
[01:20:01] then it might not necessarily be a total loss.
[01:20:04] But of course that would,
[01:20:05] that would dampen the emotionality of the moment when Elrond says,
[01:20:08] you know,
[01:20:09] kill me,
[01:20:09] not the scrolls.
[01:20:10] Well,
[01:20:10] don't worry,
[01:20:11] Marilyn,
[01:20:11] they had Merdania read as a backup.
[01:20:14] Oh.
[01:20:14] Oh,
[01:20:15] oops.
[01:20:16] But then you gotta put your backup drive in a separate place from your
[01:20:20] originals.
[01:20:21] Designated survivor.
[01:20:21] Sure.
[01:20:22] Writing is a really efficient way of,
[01:20:24] of disseminating information though,
[01:20:27] because you could take one person in a classroom and then you can just,
[01:20:30] you know,
[01:20:30] if they're reading that and then,
[01:20:32] you know,
[01:20:32] or somebody in time and place dislocated can.
[01:20:36] So it's,
[01:20:36] it's an effective and efficient.
[01:20:38] I mean,
[01:20:39] we're glad that they did because eventually,
[01:20:41] you know,
[01:20:41] things wind up in Rivendell and,
[01:20:43] you know,
[01:20:44] serve for the next couple thousand years.
[01:20:46] Yeah.
[01:20:46] I mean,
[01:20:46] if we,
[01:20:47] if we're talking about music notation,
[01:20:48] for example,
[01:20:48] like do the elves write out the music or do they just remember?
[01:20:51] I think like when we think of the propagation and development of music
[01:20:55] notation,
[01:20:56] at least notation in the Western sense,
[01:20:58] like European,
[01:20:59] you know,
[01:20:59] our staff with clefts in the sharps flats that sure.
[01:21:04] The,
[01:21:05] the impermanence of human life was a part of that,
[01:21:07] but it was really about the distribution,
[01:21:10] right.
[01:21:10] To like get this chant supposedly written by St.
[01:21:15] Gregory,
[01:21:16] but probably not or whatever,
[01:21:17] but also like written by Hildegard from being a member or something to get
[01:21:20] this to another monastery.
[01:21:21] So they could sing it also.
[01:21:23] Right.
[01:21:23] How could we possibly write that down?
[01:21:25] And would the elves,
[01:21:27] if the elves have communication methods that make that not necessary,
[01:21:32] or do they still need to like,
[01:21:33] find a way?
[01:21:34] Oh,
[01:21:34] Linden has a banger coral piece.
[01:21:36] Let's get it teared on or let's get it to the wood elves because they really
[01:21:40] want to read it.
[01:21:40] Then they would have invented this,
[01:21:42] right.
[01:21:42] And this is the stuff my,
[01:21:43] my corrupted brain thinks about when I'm watching made up stories.
[01:21:47] Well,
[01:21:48] but you also got me thinking because the,
[01:21:50] one of the things about partisan music is they were very tracked on the word
[01:21:54] and they were very tracked on a unity of purpose.
[01:21:59] And so they wanted to have the congregation singing the text because that was part of the
[01:22:05] way that the congregation learned the text and learned the new Protestant ideas for those
[01:22:11] who had not yet,
[01:22:12] you know,
[01:22:13] been trained on how to read because that was one of the major contributions of
[01:22:16] course,
[01:22:16] is that it was very important for them to have literacy increase because reading the
[01:22:20] Bible for yourself was one of the,
[01:22:22] so.
[01:22:24] Well,
[01:22:24] let's get into some listener feedback before we are here another four hours.
[01:22:28] Because we,
[01:22:29] I think we could really have a conversation on this all night and maybe we should.
[01:22:33] But let's get in Jordan M from Montreal.
[01:22:36] Now I'm going to read this one because Jordan's pastime is getting me to read
[01:22:39] Quebecois.
[01:22:40] All right.
[01:22:41] Keep your secrets,
[01:22:42] right?
[01:22:42] Um,
[01:22:43] so,
[01:22:43] so I didn't chop up this email too much because I wanted to keep it mostly intact,
[01:22:47] but so it starts off with some nice things and Jordan's going to talk a little
[01:22:51] bit about the music and then we're going to get into,
[01:22:53] it's only a little bit about the music,
[01:22:55] but then we're going to go into Laura with Jordan.
[01:22:58] So Jordan says,
[01:22:59] bonjour,
[01:23:00] they low rounds or the Lawrence,
[01:23:03] right?
[01:23:03] Because that's what they're going to call us.
[01:23:05] As you said,
[01:23:06] Mark,
[01:23:08] checking in post season finale to throw my two cents at you all.
[01:23:11] You still have pennies there,
[01:23:12] right?
[01:23:14] Oh,
[01:23:14] debut.
[01:23:16] Please allow me to sing your praises for such excellent coverage of the
[01:23:20] show.
[01:23:20] I have been cherishing my season pass.
[01:23:22] I am really appreciative of your analysis of the show and of the lore as is
[01:23:28] and not analyzing the show from a rewrite type of position.
[01:23:32] And then I skipped a little bit because there's some mixed opinions on
[01:23:36] another podcast and I don't want to say anything good or bad about that
[01:23:39] podcast.
[01:23:40] But all this to say your fair and balanced coverage has been greatly
[01:23:47] appreciated and greatly entertaining.
[01:23:49] A special shout out to the edition of Maryland this season too.
[01:24:01] We to scratch the surface.
[01:24:05] I really loved this season and it definitely beats out hot D this year.
[01:24:10] And unlike hot D what an excellent season finale.
[01:24:13] I laughed,
[01:24:14] I cried and I cheered at the screen often in the same scene.
[01:24:18] I mean,
[01:24:18] King Doran giving baby Doran his well-earned approbation right before
[01:24:23] heroically and somewhat comically with his little legs sprawled out
[01:24:26] leaping out against the ball rock is a prime example of those emotions
[01:24:30] being brought to the four for a sorry.
[01:24:35] Wait,
[01:24:35] what?
[01:24:36] No,
[01:24:37] I think brought to the four.
[01:24:37] It was to the four.
[01:24:38] I,
[01:24:38] I,
[01:24:39] I,
[01:24:39] I'm trying to be,
[01:24:40] French,
[01:24:41] Frenchifying every,
[01:24:42] Frenchifying.
[01:24:43] That one's,
[01:24:44] that one's,
[01:24:45] that one's,
[01:24:46] that one's Anglo-Saxon.
[01:24:47] So don't worry.
[01:24:47] Okay.
[01:24:48] Impressionistic French composer for a,
[01:24:51] what a random mention.
[01:24:52] I don't know.
[01:24:53] You're trying to show off.
[01:24:54] Sure.
[01:24:54] It won't.
[01:24:57] And speaking of that,
[01:24:58] Balrog,
[01:24:58] the creatures in this season have been truly fantastical.
[01:25:02] Bear McCreary deserves praise for the music,
[01:25:05] but so to do their visual effects.
[01:25:07] People,
[01:25:08] the ends,
[01:25:08] the wargs,
[01:25:09] the troll,
[01:25:10] the sea monster,
[01:25:11] many more just top notch.
[01:25:13] Okay.
[01:25:13] So this was the only email that mentioned music actually.
[01:25:16] So I kind of stretched it here that they gave there a half a sentence of,
[01:25:20] uh,
[01:25:20] of praise,
[01:25:21] but I just,
[01:25:22] you know,
[01:25:22] I just wanted an excuse to talk about music,
[01:25:24] Mark.
[01:25:25] Well,
[01:25:25] yeah.
[01:25:27] I don't think we need an excuse,
[01:25:29] John.
[01:25:29] We can just do it whenever we want.
[01:25:30] Yeah.
[01:25:31] Yeah.
[01:25:31] But then Jordan kind of leads us deeper into the lore.
[01:25:34] So I just want to,
[01:25:35] uh,
[01:25:35] I'll read the rest of Jordan's email and then we'll go into digging deep into the
[01:25:39] lore.
[01:25:40] And I know Mark,
[01:25:40] you had some more questions.
[01:25:42] So we'll get to that right after Jordan.
[01:25:45] Jordan continues as always.
[01:25:46] So I have a few minor quibbles.
[01:25:49] I blame the French blood.
[01:25:51] Sorry.
[01:25:52] Ha ha.
[01:25:53] Starting off with one that I go back and forth with because it at is,
[01:25:58] it is at times a boon for the show.
[01:26:00] And at times it's Baines.
[01:26:02] In my opinion,
[01:26:04] this being the showrunner's tendency to often pay more homage to the Jackson
[01:26:08] films,
[01:26:09] then the Tolkien texts,
[01:26:11] EG ball,
[01:26:12] rug whip,
[01:26:13] killer,
[01:26:13] bring more receiving arrows,
[01:26:15] Boromir,
[01:26:16] St.
[01:26:16] Sebastian style.
[01:26:17] That's actually,
[01:26:18] that's,
[01:26:19] that's actually a little bit closer to the text than you think that's in
[01:26:22] the text.
[01:26:22] Yeah.
[01:26:22] He does the bell rock whip.
[01:26:24] The bell roll.
[01:26:25] Bell logs were famous for the fact that they all had whips.
[01:26:28] I think the wings actually are the more debatable thing with the ball rock.
[01:26:30] That's the bit debatable thing for sure.
[01:26:33] The second is my recurring issue with too many storylines at once,
[01:26:37] which was mostly resolved by the Reguon convergence,
[01:26:40] but I feel it hurt the now revealed Gandalf and Harfoot storylines.
[01:26:45] The latter just felt a bit too rushed and sewn up too neatly.
[01:26:48] That said,
[01:26:49] these are very,
[01:26:50] very,
[01:26:52] minor quips,
[01:26:54] however,
[01:26:55] and do not detract from the fantastic story being told.
[01:26:59] Bon,
[01:27:01] looking forward to another season and hoping we don't have to wait too long,
[01:27:05] though.
[01:27:05] Clearly they use their time between seasons wisely here.
[01:27:08] So many questions to tackle coming up,
[01:27:10] such as who will succeed King Doran?
[01:27:13] What will be the fate of our beloved Harfoot slash stores?
[01:27:17] Who is the other wizard?
[01:27:19] Better not be fucking Saruman.
[01:27:21] And you can go French with that curse.
[01:27:23] Come on.
[01:27:25] And how is a sealed or going to rise up through the fascist Faro's own takeover?
[01:27:30] Oh,
[01:27:30] and I absolutely cannot await.
[01:27:33] Hold on.
[01:27:34] I have to push.
[01:27:35] All right,
[01:27:35] then keep your secrets.
[01:27:38] Well,
[01:27:39] as we wind up for season three,
[01:27:42] let's all pour one out for our boy at our followed by King Doran.
[01:27:46] And last,
[01:27:47] but not at least a good old boy,
[01:27:50] Celebrimbor himself,
[01:27:51] who I am not sure I would be so quick to forgive as Galatriel and the rest do.
[01:27:57] That has been my two cents.
[01:27:59] Thank you,
[01:27:59] Marilyn,
[01:28:00] John and David.
[01:28:00] And of course,
[01:28:01] Nancy,
[01:28:01] for all your hard work in giving us this amazing companion pod.
[01:28:04] It made for a wonderful season of TV.
[01:28:07] And I cannot wait for more.
[01:28:09] Be well,
[01:28:10] Laura Hounds.
[01:28:11] You know,
[01:28:13] I said,
[01:28:14] I said words there.
[01:28:15] P.S.
[01:28:17] John has been marked safe by the Montreal gay community for his quickly rectified Rufus
[01:28:22] Wainwright sexuality lapsed.
[01:28:24] There's a relief.
[01:28:25] I am relieved to not be a target of the Montreal gay community.
[01:28:30] Now I can safely travel in Montreal.
[01:28:32] They sound like,
[01:28:34] you know,
[01:28:35] serious dudes.
[01:28:36] I really want somebody who doesn't know this podcast very well,
[01:28:42] but watches this show 10 years from now and finds a season wrap up to listen to this episode
[01:28:46] and be what the hell is going on when I hear that.
[01:28:48] I know what you're talking about.
[01:28:51] And I,
[01:28:51] I also went,
[01:28:52] wait,
[01:28:53] Rufus Wainwright,
[01:28:53] you've got that wrong,
[01:28:54] John,
[01:28:54] but like,
[01:28:55] that is not going to make any sense in the future.
[01:28:58] Listeners,
[01:28:59] listen to the entire season of coverage and then you understand.
[01:29:02] Yeah.
[01:29:02] I,
[01:29:03] I corrected myself within minutes of my lapse of thinking Rufus Wainwright was straight.
[01:29:09] He in fact is not,
[01:29:11] and was a sperm donor,
[01:29:13] not a partner.
[01:29:15] All right.
[01:29:16] Now that I'm marked safe,
[01:29:18] um,
[01:29:18] Mark,
[01:29:18] you had some more questions.
[01:29:20] So I want to give some space for you before we move on to more feedback.
[01:29:23] I get to still,
[01:29:25] uh,
[01:29:25] take over the podcast.
[01:29:26] All right,
[01:29:26] great.
[01:29:26] So I wanted to talk,
[01:29:27] I have to kind of two things.
[01:29:29] One of them very much,
[01:29:30] uh,
[01:29:31] some of these comments would lead right to,
[01:29:34] and sort of that's the villains,
[01:29:37] I guess,
[01:29:37] in this series,
[01:29:38] uh,
[01:29:39] I guess simply about the Balrog.
[01:29:41] I have a question for really,
[01:29:43] I guess,
[01:29:43] mostly for,
[01:29:45] um,
[01:29:47] for John and Marilyn.
[01:29:48] I feel like this show,
[01:29:50] like I implied earlier,
[01:29:51] has fleshed out some characters that were otherwise two dimensional in the lore,
[01:29:54] right?
[01:29:54] So Sauron feels like a real character.
[01:29:56] Now we have,
[01:29:58] there's Eddard,
[01:29:59] which we can,
[01:29:59] I actually have a,
[01:30:00] I want to talk about Eddard in,
[01:30:01] in a few minutes,
[01:30:02] but,
[01:30:03] um,
[01:30:04] I think maybe Farazhan,
[01:30:06] right?
[01:30:07] There's some,
[01:30:07] some depth there.
[01:30:08] I think maybe Kemen,
[01:30:10] they went too far.
[01:30:10] That guy's kind of just too evil,
[01:30:12] too fast.
[01:30:13] But I wanted to ask Balrogs,
[01:30:15] do they have personalities?
[01:30:17] Because it feels to me like in both this and in the Jackson film,
[01:30:22] they are portrayed as kind of just like a monster,
[01:30:25] but then like,
[01:30:27] they don't talk.
[01:30:27] They just sort of like attack,
[01:30:29] but then I know they're Maiar.
[01:30:31] And so are they like smoking pipe weed,
[01:30:33] like Gandalf?
[01:30:34] Are they going on adventures?
[01:30:36] I know that one's like Durian's Bane is just slumbering waiting,
[01:30:41] but like,
[01:30:42] are we supposed to understand that the Balrogs are kind of like two dimensional
[01:30:48] villains or are we supposed to think of them?
[01:30:51] Are they like intelligent,
[01:30:52] sentient creatures?
[01:30:53] Because I do not think the visual media as awesome.
[01:30:55] I agree.
[01:30:55] David looks amazing.
[01:30:57] I don't get the sense that they're like angelic beings or demons with like agency,
[01:31:04] as opposed to just like kind of like Godzilla sort of thing,
[01:31:10] right?
[01:31:10] Thoughts?
[01:31:11] Help me out here.
[01:31:14] I see the Balrog as,
[01:31:17] well,
[01:31:18] Balrogs in general,
[01:31:19] as sort of similar to,
[01:31:21] you know,
[01:31:22] compared to other Maiar,
[01:31:23] similar to how orcs are corrupted from elves,
[01:31:28] right?
[01:31:29] So like the Balrogs have been corrupted by Morgoth severely.
[01:31:33] So I think they probably once could have had more of a personality and now are sort of trapped in this cage of evil.
[01:31:42] And that,
[01:31:43] that's sort of why I think that they are more two dimensional.
[01:31:45] What do you think Marilyn?
[01:31:46] Cause I could be wrong on that.
[01:31:48] Well,
[01:31:48] the first thing I would say is in the lore,
[01:31:50] the Balrogs look nothing like what is now forever indelibly plastered on our back of our eyeballs,
[01:31:57] which came from the Russian monster from Fantasia,
[01:32:02] you know,
[01:32:03] in the,
[01:32:04] the second to last piece of that,
[01:32:07] you know,
[01:32:07] the night on bald mountain monster,
[01:32:09] basically that even has a name,
[01:32:10] but I can't remember right now.
[01:32:12] They were humanoid figures that were surrounded by a lot of,
[01:32:17] you know,
[01:32:18] smoke and flame.
[01:32:20] They were in fact,
[01:32:21] as John said,
[01:32:22] corrupted by Morgoth.
[01:32:24] And to that extent,
[01:32:26] we're completely under his will.
[01:32:28] Now you got to think that if that's the case,
[01:32:29] when Morgoth was taken out and,
[01:32:31] you know,
[01:32:32] turned into the void,
[01:32:35] they might be feeling kind of purposeless and running around and not sure.
[01:32:38] We're told that the Balrog in Khazad-dum was there after having run away from the destruction of Angband.
[01:32:48] So we're talking a very long time.
[01:32:51] And there's suggestions that,
[01:32:53] oh,
[01:32:54] well,
[01:32:54] Sauron woke him up or whatever.
[01:32:55] Not impossible,
[01:32:57] but,
[01:32:58] you know,
[01:32:59] that's,
[01:32:59] I think that's more of a supposition than,
[01:33:02] you know,
[01:33:02] I can't point to anything in the Lord that says,
[01:33:04] yes,
[01:33:04] he did it here or here.
[01:33:07] I think that,
[01:33:08] I think that the Balrogs have been monsterized,
[01:33:15] if you will,
[01:33:15] by the visual media,
[01:33:17] because that's more exciting and frightening.
[01:33:20] You know,
[01:33:21] they're described as having flaming hair streaming out behind them like a banner.
[01:33:27] They're described as very dark human figures within a larger shadowy form.
[01:33:33] And yes,
[01:33:35] there are no wings.
[01:33:35] There are just shadows.
[01:33:37] And that was a metaphor.
[01:33:39] But they have these flaming swords and they have these whips of flame.
[01:33:44] And that really is their trademark.
[01:33:46] And if you think about it,
[01:33:47] that's what pulled Gandalf over the edge so that,
[01:33:50] you know,
[01:33:51] they did homage to that because they followed that pretty closely.
[01:33:57] So that's my best thought.
[01:33:58] Does that help?
[01:34:00] Yeah.
[01:34:01] Interesting.
[01:34:02] Like a combination of we're seeing them.
[01:34:05] We're probably seeing their madness on some level,
[01:34:07] right?
[01:34:07] They've lost their sentience maybe on some level,
[01:34:10] but also we're seeing a amplified version of that via a show or a movie.
[01:34:15] Right.
[01:34:15] I mean,
[01:34:15] the orcs themselves were terrified of them.
[01:34:18] Right.
[01:34:18] Didn't want anything to do with them.
[01:34:19] And it's never really clear to me if the Balrog was directing,
[01:34:24] you know,
[01:34:25] the,
[01:34:25] the offense against the fellowship is they were fleeing Khazad-dum.
[01:34:29] Um,
[01:34:30] or if the orcs,
[01:34:31] you know,
[01:34:31] summoned them and,
[01:34:32] and,
[01:34:33] you know,
[01:34:33] then backed off as fast as they could.
[01:34:35] Right.
[01:34:35] Yeah.
[01:34:36] Um,
[01:34:36] so,
[01:34:37] I mean,
[01:34:37] on the,
[01:34:37] on the point of orcs,
[01:34:39] the other thing that I'm thinking about villains is as,
[01:34:43] as everybody agrees,
[01:34:45] the lore cast on orcs on Uruks is a top five lore hounds podcast.
[01:34:50] And that is not probably meant as a direct dig to John,
[01:34:54] who was not on the episode.
[01:34:55] I accept,
[01:34:56] I accept your ruling.
[01:34:57] So,
[01:34:58] but now that after that lore cast was recorded,
[01:35:03] the orcs betrayed,
[01:35:07] uh,
[01:35:08] Adar and went back to Sauron.
[01:35:10] Do they then go back to being morally sort of killable?
[01:35:17] Like,
[01:35:17] like we get to a point in the third age where we're supposed to view them as
[01:35:21] goons that are just meant to be exterminated.
[01:35:24] Right.
[01:35:24] And this,
[01:35:24] the,
[01:35:25] this series was sort of setting up the,
[01:35:27] what if the orcs were actually kind of like sentient creatures and had
[01:35:30] families and all that.
[01:35:32] Are we witnessed,
[01:35:33] have we witnessed the moment where they lose that?
[01:35:36] Like,
[01:35:36] and does this fit with,
[01:35:38] does what we just saw,
[01:35:39] we,
[01:35:39] we know they eventually get to be the bad guys.
[01:35:41] We know that we know they're not like functioning society,
[01:35:46] productive pro social society in the third age in,
[01:35:49] in the writings or,
[01:35:50] or the movies.
[01:35:50] But are we going to see for the rest of the series,
[01:35:54] essentially that's that.
[01:35:56] And our orcs are now sort of just unilaterally kind of bad,
[01:36:02] not one dimensionally bad.
[01:36:04] Was that the moment,
[01:36:06] you know,
[01:36:06] or is there more to it?
[01:36:07] How does this fit with Tolkien struggles on their evilness and their
[01:36:12] identity and their morality and all that?
[01:36:16] Am I making any sense?
[01:36:17] I hear exactly what you're saying.
[01:36:19] I mean,
[01:36:20] I think orc souls,
[01:36:23] the question is what happens with them after they die.
[01:36:25] Right?
[01:36:25] Because I think Tolkien can often be evaluated with what happens to you
[01:36:29] after you die.
[01:36:32] And to me,
[01:36:34] I think that orc souls have the potential to return to whatever,
[01:36:40] because you can't create as an evil person,
[01:36:42] right?
[01:36:43] You can only distort.
[01:36:44] So the orcs that were men will have the fate of men.
[01:36:48] The orcs that were elves will have the fate of elves.
[01:36:50] And so I think they still are elves at their core,
[01:36:57] but under Sauron,
[01:36:59] who is dominating them through manipulation and his own power,
[01:37:03] I think they will remain pretty two dimensionally evil through the third age.
[01:37:11] Now,
[01:37:11] of course,
[01:37:13] I think that there is always the possibility that individual orcs can choose to not follow Sauron,
[01:37:20] but that's very difficult for them because they've been so broken already through the process of becoming an orc.
[01:37:25] So it'll be more difficult for them to resist than someone like Galadriel.
[01:37:29] I think that's where I'm at.
[01:37:30] Does that answer your question?
[01:37:33] Mm-hmm.
[01:37:34] I think so.
[01:37:35] Yeah.
[01:37:35] Well,
[01:37:35] I don't know that there is an answer,
[01:37:37] but yeah,
[01:37:37] that sounds,
[01:37:38] that's fascinating.
[01:37:38] That sounds right to me.
[01:37:40] I think the Tolkien gives us examples of,
[01:37:43] well,
[01:37:44] certainly the orcs are sentient creatures.
[01:37:46] That to me is just beyond question.
[01:37:49] They were under Sauron's dominion at the end of the first age.
[01:37:57] And therefore,
[01:37:58] even though Adar,
[01:37:59] you know,
[01:37:59] killed Sauron and made him slimy Sauron and all the rest of it,
[01:38:02] there is still that mark,
[01:38:04] if you will,
[01:38:04] that imprint,
[01:38:05] which is part of what made it easy,
[01:38:08] quote unquote,
[01:38:09] for Sauron to force them to revert to his dominion,
[01:38:14] whatever you want to call it.
[01:38:15] we already have seen some orcs who've decided they're going to just go off on
[01:38:19] their own.
[01:38:19] They,
[01:38:20] who deserted Adar,
[01:38:21] mind you,
[01:38:22] not Sauron,
[01:38:22] but Adar.
[01:38:24] So another example of,
[01:38:25] you know,
[01:38:26] freedom of thought,
[01:38:27] independence of thinking,
[01:38:28] how much control did Sauron have over his orcs?
[01:38:31] Well,
[01:38:31] maybe it differed depending upon what jobs they had.
[01:38:34] I mean,
[01:38:35] Shagrad and his companion,
[01:38:36] whose name is escaping me right now,
[01:38:39] in the tower of Kirithungal,
[01:38:42] clearly had agency,
[01:38:43] clearly wanted to go off on their own,
[01:38:45] get rid of the big bosses and,
[01:38:46] you know,
[01:38:47] have their own way.
[01:38:49] So.
[01:38:50] Gore bag.
[01:38:51] Gore bag.
[01:38:52] Thank you.
[01:38:52] Thank you,
[01:38:52] David.
[01:38:53] I think Tolkien was kind of caught in his own cleft stick there.
[01:38:58] Because on the one hand,
[01:38:59] he's seemingly giving us mindless masses to be moaned down by the heroes.
[01:39:04] And then he gives us a conversation between two works that could happen
[01:39:08] between two humans.
[01:39:08] And so he never really resolved that to his own satisfaction.
[01:39:15] I like John's analogy of,
[01:39:17] you know,
[01:39:18] there's still souls.
[01:39:19] And so,
[01:39:19] you know,
[01:39:20] what happens when they die depends on which beings.
[01:39:23] So they had,
[01:39:24] I suppose you could make a case that after sufficient number of generations,
[01:39:28] there was so small amount of that left that it's difficult to comprehend.
[01:39:32] But I don't think that would make any difference.
[01:39:36] Or to.
[01:39:40] Mandos.
[01:39:42] Yeah.
[01:39:44] All right.
[01:39:45] Well,
[01:39:45] thanks for this sidetrack there.
[01:39:47] Interesting.
[01:39:48] Yeah.
[01:39:48] It's,
[01:39:49] it's quite the,
[01:39:51] the abrupt shift.
[01:39:52] Like,
[01:39:52] like,
[01:39:52] I know it's telegraphed.
[01:39:53] I know that this was pre preordained,
[01:39:56] but it's like they're in one direction and now they're in the other
[01:39:59] direction.
[01:40:00] Right.
[01:40:00] In the span of one scene,
[01:40:01] basically.
[01:40:02] Yeah.
[01:40:03] To some degree.
[01:40:04] I,
[01:40:04] I had predicted that,
[01:40:05] um,
[01:40:06] daddy work was going to eventually kill a dog.
[01:40:09] And they had been signaling that a couple of times with increasing
[01:40:13] strength throughout the season.
[01:40:16] So that was no big surprise for me.
[01:40:18] So I don't think daddy work.
[01:40:20] You need glue.
[01:40:21] Sorry.
[01:40:21] Give him his name.
[01:40:22] Needed much persuasion.
[01:40:23] Pour,
[01:40:24] pour one out for him.
[01:40:24] Right.
[01:40:25] Right.
[01:40:26] His last look.
[01:40:27] Look,
[01:40:27] look,
[01:40:28] look,
[01:40:28] I think the interesting thing though,
[01:40:29] will be if they do carry on with this threat,
[01:40:32] red,
[01:40:35] then we are going to see the increasing villainy,
[01:40:41] increasing villainy,
[01:40:42] the villainy of Sauron,
[01:40:44] where he has,
[01:40:47] um,
[01:40:49] enslaved isn't the right word,
[01:40:50] but he has subjugated this people for his purposes.
[01:40:54] Sure.
[01:40:55] For the,
[01:40:55] the,
[01:40:55] the sharp end of his stick.
[01:40:59] Dominated would be the word,
[01:41:00] right?
[01:41:01] Dominated.
[01:41:01] Dominated is absolutely Sauron's word.
[01:41:03] Yeah.
[01:41:03] And that was his attitude from the beginning.
[01:41:05] And that's why Adar rebelled.
[01:41:07] And the tragedy that is going to continue to unfold,
[01:41:11] that they can play,
[01:41:13] the showrunners can play with a little bit on the edges then,
[01:41:15] is the,
[01:41:16] the,
[01:41:17] this domination,
[01:41:18] the,
[01:41:18] the,
[01:41:19] the ruinous effects that this domination is going to have on these people.
[01:41:23] And,
[01:41:24] you know,
[01:41:24] we might see a couple more gore bagging,
[01:41:26] um,
[01:41:27] types of characters who say,
[01:41:29] gosh,
[01:41:30] you know,
[01:41:30] this Sauron guy sucks and we're all dying and whatnot.
[01:41:33] And,
[01:41:34] you know,
[01:41:34] they can,
[01:41:34] it's a little something that I think they could continue to play with on the
[01:41:37] margins that would give some depth perception,
[01:41:40] give us a three dimensional picture of orcs rather than just,
[01:41:44] you know,
[01:41:45] uh,
[01:41:45] bad guys to be mowed down.
[01:41:47] I'm going to guess that Sauron will not have a lot of mercy for doubters
[01:41:51] though,
[01:41:52] after,
[01:41:53] uh,
[01:41:53] clearly he didn't at the beginning of the second age.
[01:41:56] Yeah.
[01:41:56] Yeah.
[01:41:56] He doesn't have,
[01:41:57] we know they all live,
[01:41:58] lose,
[01:41:59] right?
[01:42:00] Spoilers.
[01:42:02] No,
[01:42:02] but like,
[01:42:03] we,
[01:42:03] we know there isn't some like orc nation in Lord of the Rings time.
[01:42:07] That's trying to make peace with the humans.
[01:42:08] Right.
[01:42:09] So like,
[01:42:09] but you see when Aragorn says he's giving all the lands around Lake Nurnin to
[01:42:16] Sauron slaves.
[01:42:17] Hmm.
[01:42:18] I saw this possibility there that those were orcs.
[01:42:21] I've never had anyone agree with me on that.
[01:42:23] Not just the humans.
[01:42:25] Not just the humans,
[01:42:26] but they're,
[01:42:26] you know,
[01:42:27] possibly even the orcs because otherwise you've got a real slaughter program
[01:42:31] ahead of you.
[01:42:31] Yeah.
[01:42:31] Otherwise you have a literal genocide.
[01:42:33] Yeah.
[01:42:34] And that's,
[01:42:34] yeah,
[01:42:35] that's got a lot of moral implications for our new King.
[01:42:38] Mm-hmm.
[01:42:39] So you start off with them in a location,
[01:42:42] hopefully removed from humans as much as possible,
[01:42:44] or maybe not because how,
[01:42:46] you know,
[01:42:47] if you want them to change,
[01:42:48] if you isolate them,
[01:42:49] does that help?
[01:42:51] So let's keep going.
[01:42:52] Awesome.
[01:42:53] Now that we're through one feedback email.
[01:42:56] No,
[01:42:56] that's too bad.
[01:42:57] Listeners,
[01:42:57] you won't be able to say,
[01:42:58] well,
[01:42:58] I guess you could,
[01:42:59] but you won't be able to hear our responses to any feedback.
[01:43:02] You might give us to this discussion,
[01:43:04] but by all means,
[01:43:04] send them in because it's always interesting.
[01:43:06] Yeah.
[01:43:07] Folks have to say,
[01:43:07] well,
[01:43:08] that's what the discord is great for.
[01:43:10] So that's what the discord is for,
[01:43:12] for sure.
[01:43:12] So Arthur H writes in and says,
[01:43:15] it is important to know that as a philologist,
[01:43:17] Tolkien would have known that in Hebrew,
[01:43:19] the prefix Ben or bar signifies son of,
[01:43:22] as in bar mitzvah or Ben-Gurion.
[01:43:26] And as we learned in the council of Elrond,
[01:43:28] that one of Bombadil's names is Erwain Ben-Adar.
[01:43:33] Is it possible in episode eight,
[01:43:36] we may see a father son reunion.
[01:43:39] A little silly,
[01:43:40] but very funny,
[01:43:41] Arthur.
[01:43:42] I,
[01:43:42] I,
[01:43:42] I like that.
[01:43:43] And of course they did name drop Erwain as the name of the little goat,
[01:43:48] the lamb,
[01:43:49] the lamb,
[01:43:49] sorry.
[01:43:50] Yeah.
[01:43:51] Yeah.
[01:43:51] That was funny.
[01:43:52] And yes,
[01:43:53] that is vintage Arthur.
[01:43:54] So thank you,
[01:43:55] Arthur.
[01:43:56] Oh,
[01:43:57] Arthur is our,
[01:43:58] right.
[01:43:59] Our Tolkien,
[01:44:00] your fellow Tolkien scholar,
[01:44:02] right.
[01:44:02] A stealth Tolkien scholar in our feedback.
[01:44:04] Thank you,
[01:44:05] Arthur.
[01:44:07] Jim C writes in,
[01:44:08] says,
[01:44:09] hi,
[01:44:09] lore hounds.
[01:44:09] I'm very much enjoying your podcast covering rings of power.
[01:44:12] Great entertainment.
[01:44:13] This podcast helps me enjoy the TV show,
[01:44:15] but also increases my Tolkien lore knowledge.
[01:44:18] Well,
[01:44:18] thanks Jim.
[01:44:19] I think the one skill Sauron doesn't possess is the ability to create.
[01:44:24] He's evil and can,
[01:44:25] I understand only change or manipulate,
[01:44:27] not create.
[01:44:28] To create the one ring,
[01:44:30] I think he's going to have to start with a ring started,
[01:44:32] created,
[01:44:33] created by Celebrimbor,
[01:44:35] maybe a cast off or otherwise ring,
[01:44:37] not yet finished.
[01:44:39] I guess we'll see.
[01:44:40] But I think the ability to create is why Sauron needed Celebrimbor on pins and needles waiting for episode eight.
[01:44:47] So what does everybody think on that one?
[01:44:49] Because Marilyn,
[01:44:50] this is something you raised all season.
[01:44:51] Yeah.
[01:44:52] And I think this is a really excellent point.
[01:44:54] I really appreciate this,
[01:44:57] Jim.
[01:44:59] And within the lore,
[01:45:00] yes,
[01:45:00] he was literally taking all the rings that Celebrimbor had made and handing them out himself.
[01:45:07] So that wasn't the,
[01:45:09] you know,
[01:45:09] they made the rings for the doors and the rings for the humans.
[01:45:15] It was just random rings that they had made as they were learning their craft.
[01:45:18] And then Sauron took them and handed them out as he felt fit to do.
[01:45:22] But he did forge the one ring himself.
[01:45:26] I guess the question would be,
[01:45:30] could he create the mechanism by which he could pour his cruelty and his will to dominate into a physical object the way he did?
[01:45:40] And maybe that is what he learned from Celebrimbor.
[01:45:44] If you think of that as an act of new creation.
[01:45:48] Yeah.
[01:45:48] It certainly is something that didn't exist before that is now being made.
[01:45:52] Right.
[01:45:52] Isn't the ring,
[01:45:54] the one ring though,
[01:45:55] a vessel for his essence,
[01:45:57] for his being.
[01:45:58] And ultimately it does,
[01:46:00] you know,
[01:46:02] because he's gone through so many sort of transmutations,
[01:46:06] that this is his last physical manifestation in the world.
[01:46:11] So when it does get destroyed,
[01:46:12] it kills him.
[01:46:15] So he's not fully dead even at the end of Lord of the Rings.
[01:46:18] No.
[01:46:19] Yeah.
[01:46:19] Right.
[01:46:19] You could interpret it that way.
[01:46:21] I think my understanding is he pours his power,
[01:46:26] his cruelty and his will to dominate.
[01:46:29] So what is destroyed is this source of his physical being,
[01:46:35] his essence,
[01:46:36] his energy.
[01:46:37] He is so reduced by the destruction of the ring that he,
[01:46:43] he doesn't have anything left.
[01:46:45] He's a chilly breeze by that point to even reach out for a bug.
[01:46:48] Right.
[01:46:49] Right.
[01:46:50] I don't know what physical form he takes.
[01:46:52] It's well,
[01:46:53] well,
[01:46:53] you don't know actually he is,
[01:46:54] he roses this huge dark cloud and was blown away by the Western.
[01:46:58] Right.
[01:46:59] Makes you,
[01:47:00] it reminds me of the spoilers,
[01:47:02] uh,
[01:47:02] end of the time bend.
[01:47:05] It's movie,
[01:47:06] the Terry Gilliam time,
[01:47:07] Ben,
[01:47:07] it's movie.
[01:47:09] Nobody,
[01:47:09] which I don't know.
[01:47:10] Sorry.
[01:47:11] Nobody.
[01:47:11] No idea.
[01:47:11] Old man.
[01:47:13] Come on.
[01:47:14] I know who that is.
[01:47:16] Haven't seen that.
[01:47:16] Anyway,
[01:47:17] there's a great scene where evil is destroyed and there's this little sort of
[01:47:20] fragment remnant and they're just kind of like,
[01:47:22] Oh,
[01:47:22] anyway,
[01:47:23] it's a very Tolkienian sort of thing.
[01:47:24] So,
[01:47:25] well,
[01:47:32] he is creating something that he is pouring himself into this vessel of
[01:47:37] containment and focus.
[01:47:38] It's like a wizard staff in a way.
[01:47:41] It's a,
[01:47:41] it's a spell focus.
[01:47:43] It's a way in D and D.
[01:47:44] If you're going to cast a spell,
[01:47:46] you need a spell,
[01:47:47] you know,
[01:47:47] all off certain,
[01:47:48] certain magic users need spell focuses to be able to channel their,
[01:47:52] uh,
[01:47:52] their attention and energies to be able to cast the spell.
[01:47:56] It's a Horcrux,
[01:47:57] right?
[01:47:58] I mean,
[01:47:58] that's basically a thing.
[01:47:59] No,
[01:48:00] exactly.
[01:48:01] No,
[01:48:02] pardon me for being pedantic here,
[01:48:03] but you could maintain that it's a Horcrux for Barad-dur because as long as
[01:48:09] the ring survives,
[01:48:10] the foundations of Barad-dur survive.
[01:48:13] Okay.
[01:48:13] Interesting.
[01:48:14] Sauron survives whether or not the ring is destroyed.
[01:48:18] So as a minor,
[01:48:20] he doesn't need to worry about never dying because he can't ever die.
[01:48:24] It's just,
[01:48:24] he is reduced so much.
[01:48:26] Sure.
[01:48:28] That,
[01:48:28] you know,
[01:48:29] he's only mostly dead,
[01:48:32] but not absolutely dead.
[01:48:34] Nobody call that guy for Sauron.
[01:48:37] All right.
[01:48:38] Let's just,
[01:48:39] uh,
[01:48:39] let's keep going through this lore section before we take another break.
[01:48:42] Arthur H says,
[01:48:43] here we go again.
[01:48:45] Everyone always forgets that Elrond had more than one kid.
[01:48:48] For those of us old enough to remember the Brady Bunch,
[01:48:51] Arwen looks like Luthien.
[01:48:52] Arwen can knit a flag.
[01:48:53] Tag.
[01:48:54] Arwen chose mortality.
[01:48:55] Arwen replaced Glorfindel in the Jackson films.
[01:48:58] It's always Arwen,
[01:48:59] Arwen,
[01:48:59] Arwen.
[01:49:00] Submitted by Eladon and Elrah here.
[01:49:03] Her brothers.
[01:49:05] Of course.
[01:49:06] Deep cuts from Arthur.
[01:49:07] Yeah.
[01:49:08] I'm,
[01:49:08] I'm liking Arthur's contributions here.
[01:49:10] Give,
[01:49:10] always can make a struggle.
[01:49:11] Are they just not doing the children of Elrond and of Gladriel in this?
[01:49:17] Are Leila and,
[01:49:17] and the spouses,
[01:49:18] I,
[01:49:23] they said Caliborn exists in season one.
[01:49:26] They named out Caliborn.
[01:49:28] Oh yeah.
[01:49:29] Yeah.
[01:49:29] And Gladriel's like,
[01:49:30] I don't know what happened to him.
[01:49:31] I think he died in the battles of the first age.
[01:49:33] Okay.
[01:49:34] All right.
[01:49:35] My theory is Arrond is going to take Galadriel to the Greenwood for healing and whatever.
[01:49:42] And that's where she's going to reunite with Caliborn.
[01:49:46] Very unexpectedly.
[01:49:47] That's,
[01:49:48] that's my theory.
[01:49:50] And Caliborn's like,
[01:49:51] I was actually a seahorse elf and here's our child,
[01:49:55] Galadriel Calibrian.
[01:49:59] I've carried her all this time,
[01:50:02] but of course,
[01:50:03] practically speaking,
[01:50:06] practically speaking,
[01:50:07] Galadriel had to be separated from Caliborn or she could not have done all the things that she did in this first season.
[01:50:13] She had to be an independent woman.
[01:50:15] Quote unquote.
[01:50:15] Right.
[01:50:17] I'm a little more worried about the implications for being a mother,
[01:50:20] but you know,
[01:50:20] we'll see what they come up.
[01:50:22] Yeah.
[01:50:23] All right.
[01:50:24] I'm just going to finish off this section here.
[01:50:25] Tom S.
[01:50:26] This one's basically for Marilyn.
[01:50:28] Oh,
[01:50:29] Hi all really enjoying.
[01:50:30] It was very,
[01:50:31] really great coverage for the new season of readings of power.
[01:50:34] Been really enjoying it as ever.
[01:50:35] I,
[01:50:36] it's been quite the journey since the second age podcast.
[01:50:38] It's great to follow along with you all.
[01:50:40] Well,
[01:50:41] thanks for following us along,
[01:50:42] Tom.
[01:50:43] Also lots,
[01:50:44] spotting lots more interesting rituals,
[01:50:47] more orc funeral rites in episode seven.
[01:50:50] Yes,
[01:50:51] indeed.
[01:50:51] And that's why I said it was for you.
[01:50:53] Oh,
[01:50:53] I see.
[01:50:54] Thank you.
[01:50:56] Really loved the orcs and Uruk bonus episode.
[01:50:59] Fantastic fan.
[01:51:00] Sorry.
[01:51:00] Fascinating discussion.
[01:51:02] And one of the most successful new twists slash slants.
[01:51:05] I think the show has brought in.
[01:51:07] I think the fear,
[01:51:08] the hooded dad orc shows in the sentence,
[01:51:11] must we go to war again is so powerful and challenging to the orcs as
[01:51:15] cannon fodder perspective.
[01:51:17] Yeah.
[01:51:17] I have been wondering what is the word that the orcs have been chanting
[01:51:22] when marching into battle.
[01:51:23] In the subtitles,
[01:51:25] it is non pot.
[01:51:26] Do we know what this means?
[01:51:28] Yeah.
[01:51:30] Or where it comes from.
[01:51:32] Is this a noun or a verb?
[01:51:33] Does one non pot is one a non pot?
[01:51:36] Does one declare non pot?
[01:51:37] I would love to know if there's any background on this.
[01:51:41] It's been,
[01:51:41] it's becoming a running,
[01:51:42] a running joke in my home for me and my partner to march around chanting
[01:51:45] non pot while doing chores followed by your very best Tuscan Raider
[01:51:50] impression.
[01:51:52] Don't ask me why this crossover.
[01:51:54] It just feels right.
[01:51:56] Hopefully we are not chanting some kind of orc slur.
[01:51:59] Thanks again for the very entertaining coverage.
[01:52:02] Marilyn,
[01:52:02] you,
[01:52:02] you tell us about non pot.
[01:52:04] It's been in my notes on several times,
[01:52:07] but I've edited myself for timing,
[01:52:09] but we can hear it's,
[01:52:10] it's something that bear put in as a theme music for certain scenes.
[01:52:14] So over to you,
[01:52:14] Marilyn.
[01:52:15] Right.
[01:52:15] And the term non pot,
[01:52:17] as David has said,
[01:52:19] means death.
[01:52:20] So I hope that while you're doing chores,
[01:52:23] you're,
[01:52:24] you're killing dust bunnies.
[01:52:25] Yes.
[01:52:26] In that instance,
[01:52:28] it would be eminently appropriate.
[01:52:30] Otherwise,
[01:52:31] um,
[01:52:31] Hmm.
[01:52:32] I didn't know.
[01:52:33] You might want to come up with a different slogan.
[01:52:39] I love it.
[01:52:40] I think it's great.
[01:52:41] That's black speech then.
[01:52:43] Yes,
[01:52:43] it is black speech.
[01:52:44] And I presumably the show runners,
[01:52:47] uh,
[01:52:48] compounded it from,
[01:52:49] or the,
[01:52:49] you know,
[01:52:50] the folks are handing the language stuff on the show or,
[01:52:53] um,
[01:52:53] came up with it.
[01:52:54] I don't know if it was found in any,
[01:52:57] you know,
[01:52:58] black speech dictionary.
[01:52:59] Tolkien wrote very little instruction for us about the black speech,
[01:53:03] except to say that it was absolutely the most ugliest possible form of speech
[01:53:11] that he could come up with.
[01:53:12] Now,
[01:53:13] let us put the qualifier on that for his ears,
[01:53:18] because some of the,
[01:53:19] what he called ugly sounds are actually crucial sounds in a lot of other
[01:53:23] languages,
[01:53:24] which I'm sure sound quite lovely.
[01:53:25] So this was very much his,
[01:53:28] his personal linguistic bias.
[01:53:30] Um,
[01:53:30] and I think if he'd step back and thought about it,
[01:53:33] he would have recognized that fact and acknowledged it.
[01:53:36] As a musician,
[01:53:37] Tolkien scholar of English and linguistics.
[01:53:40] I got a bone to pick with you when I talk about intervals and I have to
[01:53:43] say the word six,
[01:53:45] six,
[01:53:46] that is the worst word ever seriously created.
[01:53:50] And obviously it's really bad if you had to sing it,
[01:53:53] but Oh,
[01:53:53] it's everybody.
[01:53:54] It's a bunch of major six.
[01:53:56] Like,
[01:53:56] so English isn't exactly,
[01:53:58] I mean,
[01:53:59] it is the black speech probably as far as other people learning it.
[01:54:02] Of course.
[01:54:03] Well,
[01:54:03] the difficulty level definitely would,
[01:54:05] uh,
[01:54:06] probably provoke a few non pots from people learning it as a second language.
[01:54:11] Now,
[01:54:11] Mark is non pot,
[01:54:13] a motif or a motive?
[01:54:15] That's my question for you now.
[01:54:17] Well,
[01:54:17] what's the melody?
[01:54:18] Is it the recurring rhythm or melody,
[01:54:20] right?
[01:54:20] It would be,
[01:54:21] um,
[01:54:23] I'd have to hear it again.
[01:54:24] I see.
[01:54:25] I think of it more as a rhythm than a melody.
[01:54:27] Yeah.
[01:54:28] Yeah.
[01:54:28] Although I know that there are rote melodies around it,
[01:54:31] but,
[01:54:31] um,
[01:54:32] there are rhythmic motives though.
[01:54:34] Those do exist.
[01:54:35] Exactly.
[01:54:36] I would have to,
[01:54:37] particularly if you're playing gamel on touch on this,
[01:54:39] uh,
[01:54:40] comment that Tom mentioned here about the,
[01:54:42] the orcs,
[01:54:43] um,
[01:54:43] must me,
[01:54:44] must we go to war again?
[01:54:45] And I think this would touch back to Mark,
[01:54:47] your comment earlier about like,
[01:54:50] what's happened,
[01:54:50] what's going to happen with the Uruks versus the orcs thing.
[01:54:53] Are these people just suddenly turned into,
[01:54:55] you know,
[01:54:57] uh,
[01:54:57] cannon fodder.
[01:54:58] Uh,
[01:54:59] and I think this question,
[01:55:01] like if they could keep that alive,
[01:55:03] that conversation alive with one or two POV characters in the orc armies,
[01:55:09] then we could get that dimensionality into them.
[01:55:12] Going,
[01:55:13] Sauron is throwing us again at,
[01:55:15] you know,
[01:55:15] doing this and that,
[01:55:17] that would keep that issue alive.
[01:55:20] We lost all our orc POVs.
[01:55:22] We lost everybody,
[01:55:24] but Sauron,
[01:55:24] right?
[01:55:25] He's the only person in that camp.
[01:55:27] Yep.
[01:55:27] We know now.
[01:55:29] And the impression is that Sauron flipped a switch and suddenly they're all
[01:55:33] Right.
[01:55:34] subservient to him.
[01:55:35] So,
[01:55:35] right.
[01:55:36] Whatever he did,
[01:55:37] the door is open,
[01:55:38] the door is open and at our store,
[01:55:40] whatever,
[01:55:41] however you want to represent that is shut.
[01:55:43] Yep.
[01:55:43] Although some of them are starting to shut it themselves.
[01:55:46] Uh,
[01:55:46] it's always nice to hear from OG second age podcast listeners.
[01:55:49] So thanks Tom.
[01:55:50] Definitely.
[01:55:51] Yes,
[01:55:51] definitely.
[01:55:51] Yes.
[01:55:52] We've got one more piece in the deep lore section.
[01:55:55] Now I haven't listened to this voicemail,
[01:55:57] but because it's from Brian 80 63,
[01:55:59] I'm going to say it's probably belonging in the deep lore section.
[01:56:03] Here we go.
[01:56:03] Greetings,
[01:56:04] John,
[01:56:04] David,
[01:56:04] and Marilyn.
[01:56:05] First of all,
[01:56:06] I wanted to say congratulations on a great podcast season.
[01:56:10] I know it must've been a lot of work for you all to do this amazing coverage.
[01:56:18] And thank you for that.
[01:56:19] I wanted to process this good season.
[01:56:26] And I am reminded by the last podcast about critique,
[01:56:32] a thoughtful critique.
[01:56:33] And I,
[01:56:36] I,
[01:56:36] in that vein,
[01:56:37] I wanted to process in a thoughtful way,
[01:56:43] the sadness or disappointment I felt for an important storyline of all of season two.
[01:56:50] And that is Adar,
[01:56:54] Uruks,
[01:56:55] and Oryx.
[01:56:56] It was a storyline that animated our community.
[01:57:02] It brought a very thoughtful podcast with David and Marilyn,
[01:57:06] who I would highly recommend for subscribers.
[01:57:11] It animated the feedback,
[01:57:15] discord,
[01:57:17] and our blog recently,
[01:57:19] as we explore orcs and Oryx and what Adar was trying to do.
[01:57:26] I was disappointed how it all ended and needed to process this.
[01:57:33] So I wrote a blog entry looking at the lens of the cold war,
[01:57:39] kind of to help explain in my head,
[01:57:42] what was going on and just,
[01:57:46] yeah,
[01:57:46] just kind of process what happened.
[01:57:49] And what was interesting,
[01:57:51] the after show,
[01:57:52] which I recommend people finish once the credits are over,
[01:57:57] they mentioned that the show runners wanted to kill off Adar,
[01:58:02] in the first season.
[01:58:04] But a consultant named Simon Tolkien came in,
[01:58:11] and he's the son of Christopher,
[01:58:14] grandson of J.R. Tolkien,
[01:58:17] said that,
[01:58:18] hey,
[01:58:18] this is a great character.
[01:58:19] Maybe we should keep him around.
[01:58:21] And they did.
[01:58:25] But I thought,
[01:58:27] just kind of using the blog as a way to do that.
[01:58:30] So I'm just going to give a little teaser,
[01:58:32] and then hopefully people can go to our website,
[01:58:35] click blog,
[01:58:36] take a look at Doof 71's entry,
[01:58:39] and my entry.
[01:58:41] So,
[01:58:43] in the final episode of season two,
[01:58:46] Adar loses his gamble that he could get the Uruks to live peacefully with the elves in Middle Earth.
[01:58:52] And it's an interesting storyline,
[01:58:54] as I mentioned.
[01:58:56] Could orcs be Uruks,
[01:58:58] and not be part of this monolith idea that all orcs are evil?
[01:59:05] Adar hoped for detente,
[01:59:08] which is relaxed diplomatic relations.
[01:59:11] In some short moments of the show,
[01:59:14] not a hot war with the elves.
[01:59:17] So,
[01:59:17] I talk a little bit about the two superpowers,
[01:59:21] the United States and Soviet Union,
[01:59:23] and the 1970s of detente,
[01:59:25] of relaxed relations.
[01:59:26] We see the elves and Saron,
[01:59:32] Adar,
[01:59:32] the orcs,
[01:59:33] and Uruk being the two superpowers right now of Middle Earth.
[01:59:38] So,
[01:59:39] Adar was looking for detente.
[01:59:44] He had
[01:59:44] multiple summits at camps
[01:59:47] and at the mountainside.
[01:59:49] They had differences,
[01:59:51] but they shared a heritage.
[01:59:54] And,
[01:59:54] this split at the same time between Adar and Sauron
[02:00:00] was damaging.
[02:00:03] Sauron wanted a hot war to dominate the world,
[02:00:06] not a detente.
[02:00:10] Sauron wanted this monolith thinking
[02:00:13] to control the orcs against the elves.
[02:00:15] So,
[02:00:16] it's very interesting.
[02:00:19] Storyline.
[02:00:20] I'm kind of sad to see how it played out.
[02:00:22] I understood
[02:00:23] it had to be what it had to be,
[02:00:25] right?
[02:00:25] We all,
[02:00:26] as book readers,
[02:00:28] show watchers,
[02:00:30] movie watchers,
[02:00:31] we all knew
[02:00:31] how it was going to end.
[02:00:35] All right.
[02:00:37] Thanks.
[02:00:39] So,
[02:00:39] what do we all think?
[02:00:39] I mean,
[02:00:41] first of all,
[02:00:41] check out the blog.
[02:00:42] Everybody check out the blog.
[02:00:43] We don't promote it enough.
[02:00:44] And Brian is doing a great job
[02:00:45] as our Lorbrarian.
[02:00:47] Definitely.
[02:00:48] To pull everything together.
[02:00:49] And Doove has contributed a couple times now
[02:00:51] to the blog.
[02:00:52] And I love that the Uruk episode
[02:00:55] really inspired people
[02:00:56] to do more writing on it.
[02:00:59] Yeah,
[02:01:00] that was,
[02:01:00] that was really meaningful to me.
[02:01:02] And I find it interesting
[02:01:04] what Brian said about Simon Tolkien
[02:01:07] being the consultant for this,
[02:01:09] because that takes me right back
[02:01:10] to the excellence
[02:01:13] of this particular thread.
[02:01:15] And if it came from Simon,
[02:01:18] that doesn't surprise me at all
[02:01:19] because he himself
[02:01:20] is an excellent writer.
[02:01:22] He's written a couple of books,
[02:01:24] mysteries,
[02:01:25] and one based upon
[02:01:28] legal stuff in England.
[02:01:32] And he was very close
[02:01:33] to his grandfather.
[02:01:35] So,
[02:01:37] that's a very interesting
[02:01:39] piece of information, Brian.
[02:01:40] And I really
[02:01:41] appreciate learning that.
[02:01:43] That makes a lot of sense.
[02:01:45] It really does.
[02:01:46] It really does.
[02:01:47] And I'm totally in agreement
[02:01:48] with his feelings.
[02:01:49] I was so,
[02:01:50] I was completely floored
[02:01:52] by the idea
[02:01:53] when Nenya
[02:01:54] healed Adar.
[02:01:56] and loved it.
[02:01:58] Loved every minute of it.
[02:01:59] And it was
[02:01:59] just way too short.
[02:02:01] And again,
[02:02:02] knowing that it almost
[02:02:03] was certain
[02:02:04] not to last.
[02:02:06] It's a big hole.
[02:02:08] Made it all the more painful.
[02:02:08] It's a big hole to fill
[02:02:10] for the storyline
[02:02:11] and for the characters
[02:02:12] because it was such a driving force
[02:02:14] these two episodes.
[02:02:16] I mean the,
[02:02:17] ooh,
[02:02:17] I can't remember the episode number now.
[02:02:19] Was it six or seven
[02:02:20] of season one
[02:02:21] where Galadriel
[02:02:22] and Adar
[02:02:24] have their,
[02:02:26] their little meeting?
[02:02:27] And it is some of the best writing
[02:02:28] that the show has put together.
[02:02:30] I don't think there was a moment
[02:02:31] in season two
[02:02:32] that matches the intensity
[02:02:33] of that from season one
[02:02:35] in terms of
[02:02:35] a individual scene.
[02:02:39] So what are we going to have now
[02:02:40] that it's going to be
[02:02:42] that source of dramatic tension?
[02:02:44] And I think,
[02:02:45] John,
[02:02:45] it goes to your point,
[02:02:46] like man,
[02:02:47] the,
[02:02:47] the Numenor plot line
[02:02:49] has really got to.
[02:02:51] Yeah.
[02:02:51] It's got a lot of weight on it now.
[02:02:53] It does.
[02:02:53] It really needs,
[02:02:54] because that's where we can get
[02:02:56] some of that really interesting,
[02:02:57] meaty,
[02:02:57] political,
[02:02:58] because right now it's just,
[02:02:59] you know,
[02:03:01] Pharaoh's own twisting his mustache
[02:03:02] and cackling,
[02:03:03] right?
[02:03:03] Right.
[02:03:04] Well,
[02:03:05] there's also Kem and Little Kooli
[02:03:06] you're watching around.
[02:03:09] It feels like they wanted
[02:03:10] a House of the Dragon
[02:03:12] Numenor,
[02:03:13] sort of,
[02:03:13] and it just didn't,
[02:03:14] they didn't do what they needed
[02:03:15] to do to make that happen.
[02:03:17] The court,
[02:03:17] court intrigue
[02:03:19] sort of thing.
[02:03:20] Yeah.
[02:03:20] Yeah.
[02:03:21] I wonder if that moment
[02:03:24] where he takes off
[02:03:26] Nenya
[02:03:27] is sort of the definitive
[02:03:29] moment,
[02:03:30] obviously,
[02:03:31] of his life,
[02:03:31] but,
[02:03:32] but of what they were trying to say
[02:03:34] and what is,
[02:03:35] what he wants,
[02:03:37] was,
[02:03:37] right?
[02:03:37] Like,
[02:03:38] and what is to say,
[02:03:39] like,
[02:03:39] if,
[02:03:39] if he's sort of a bad guy
[02:03:41] on some level,
[02:03:42] but he chooses not to get
[02:03:44] what he would sort of want.
[02:03:45] He chooses not to get
[02:03:47] something that would
[02:03:48] advantage him.
[02:03:49] He gives up
[02:03:50] the possibility
[02:03:51] of his elf life again.
[02:03:52] His,
[02:03:53] I guess he's still an immortal.
[02:03:54] He's still
[02:03:56] serially,
[02:03:57] serially,
[02:03:58] long,
[02:03:59] long,
[02:03:59] long,
[02:04:00] jivis.
[02:04:01] But,
[02:04:02] but he,
[02:04:03] he takes his corrupted
[02:04:05] self,
[02:04:06] so to speak,
[02:04:06] if I can say that,
[02:04:09] because it lets him
[02:04:10] still help the others.
[02:04:12] And like,
[02:04:12] if that's not like
[02:04:13] a good character,
[02:04:14] like,
[02:04:15] D&D alignment style,
[02:04:17] I kind of don't know
[02:04:18] what is,
[02:04:19] right?
[02:04:19] Like,
[02:04:19] I don't know he kills,
[02:04:20] they kill a lot of people
[02:04:21] and stuff,
[02:04:21] but at the end of the day,
[02:04:23] he chooses his people
[02:04:25] over himself.
[02:04:26] And I think that's like,
[02:04:27] that's different from
[02:04:29] the sort of
[02:04:30] giving into temptation
[02:04:31] that we might associate
[02:04:32] with evil,
[02:04:33] or the giving into
[02:04:33] the easy way out,
[02:04:35] or to corruption
[02:04:36] of,
[02:04:36] uh,
[02:04:37] enriching yourself
[02:04:38] that you might see,
[02:04:40] um,
[02:04:41] with a villainous character
[02:04:43] otherwise.
[02:04:43] And then in that one moment,
[02:04:45] not when he looks
[02:04:47] like an elf again,
[02:04:48] but when he starts
[02:04:49] to turn back into
[02:04:51] his halfway to an Eric self
[02:04:53] is where we sort of see
[02:04:54] the point of his character
[02:04:55] on some level.
[02:04:56] I,
[02:04:56] and it's just sad
[02:04:57] that it's done.
[02:04:58] Yeah.
[02:04:59] Yeah.
[02:04:59] It's interesting
[02:05:00] because I did not notice
[02:05:01] that.
[02:05:02] I did not notice
[02:05:03] his change back
[02:05:03] after he took the ring off.
[02:05:04] Oh,
[02:05:04] you didn't?
[02:05:05] Really?
[02:05:06] No,
[02:05:06] I didn't.
[02:05:07] I didn't.
[02:05:07] Very significant.
[02:05:07] Well,
[02:05:08] I was,
[02:05:08] I was so intensely
[02:05:10] involved with,
[02:05:11] uh,
[02:05:11] you know,
[02:05:11] let's have peace thing.
[02:05:12] I just couldn't quite
[02:05:13] believe it.
[02:05:14] I knew that
[02:05:14] Galadriel would get
[02:05:15] the ring back.
[02:05:16] I just didn't know how.
[02:05:17] It never occurred to me
[02:05:19] that it would happen
[02:05:20] through Adar
[02:05:21] giving it to her.
[02:05:22] I,
[02:05:23] but that first scene,
[02:05:25] that first scene
[02:05:26] that you mentioned
[02:05:28] in the barn
[02:05:29] between Galadriel
[02:05:31] and Adar
[02:05:31] in season one
[02:05:32] and this scene
[02:05:33] were both filmed
[02:05:35] with the Dutch
[02:05:36] camera angle.
[02:05:37] Right.
[02:05:38] And so,
[02:05:39] that made me uneasy
[02:05:41] throughout the whole scene.
[02:05:43] It was like,
[02:05:44] this is wonderful
[02:05:45] and I love it
[02:05:46] and it's too good
[02:05:46] to be true,
[02:05:47] isn't it?
[02:05:47] And I,
[02:05:49] and I only got
[02:05:49] a few seconds
[02:05:50] to really enjoy it
[02:05:52] all before it all
[02:05:53] fell apart.
[02:05:54] And I think we can't
[02:05:55] understate that
[02:05:56] moment of Adar
[02:05:58] willingly giving
[02:06:00] the ring back.
[02:06:02] That is
[02:06:02] Exactly.
[02:06:03] Exactly.
[02:06:04] freaking huge.
[02:06:05] It really was.
[02:06:06] That is a massive moment.
[02:06:08] Mm-hmm.
[02:06:08] Something that Galadriel
[02:06:09] wouldn't do.
[02:06:10] Right.
[02:06:11] Probably not.
[02:06:12] Probably not.
[02:06:13] Probably not.
[02:06:15] Although partially
[02:06:16] because,
[02:06:17] you know,
[02:06:17] she feels the ring
[02:06:18] chose her
[02:06:19] and she is very
[02:06:20] strongly personally
[02:06:21] identified with it.
[02:06:21] Ring attachment
[02:06:23] aside,
[02:06:23] just like,
[02:06:24] I'm handing back
[02:06:25] an adversary
[02:06:27] a thing which gives
[02:06:29] them an advantage
[02:06:29] over me.
[02:06:30] Sure.
[02:06:31] Sure.
[02:06:31] And she does,
[02:06:32] of course,
[02:06:33] hand it to Elrond,
[02:06:34] but that's because
[02:06:34] That's Elrond,
[02:06:35] yeah.
[02:06:36] She wants the ring
[02:06:37] to not get in the hands
[02:06:39] of the enemies.
[02:06:40] And that was custodial,
[02:06:41] right?
[02:06:41] I think that just reinforces
[02:06:42] your point.
[02:06:43] That was a custodial thing.
[02:06:44] That was not a gift
[02:06:45] freely given.
[02:06:46] It was as far as
[02:06:47] Elrond was concerned,
[02:06:48] alas.
[02:06:49] I think they had
[02:06:51] an understanding there.
[02:06:53] No,
[02:06:53] I think he said
[02:06:54] his snarkiest line
[02:06:55] that I've heard him say
[02:06:57] as a result of that
[02:06:58] custodial arrangement.
[02:06:58] You're not letting us go,
[02:06:59] are you, Marilyn?
[02:07:00] Elrond's on your list now.
[02:07:02] No,
[02:07:03] he's off the list
[02:07:04] because he finally
[02:07:06] recognized
[02:07:08] the shortcoming
[02:07:08] that he was living out.
[02:07:09] It took him forever,
[02:07:10] too,
[02:07:11] to get around to it.
[02:07:12] He was like,
[02:07:12] I'm like,
[02:07:12] at the end of that scene,
[02:07:13] I'm like,
[02:07:14] dude,
[02:07:14] we know you're going to put it on the race.
[02:07:16] Put it on.
[02:07:17] Come on.
[02:07:19] Get over yourself.
[02:07:21] And it didn't,
[02:07:22] at the end,
[02:07:22] didn't even come through
[02:07:23] listening to Kiddurdan's wisdom,
[02:07:24] although maybe it was
[02:07:25] in the back of his mind.
[02:07:26] It had to be
[02:07:27] his own
[02:07:28] convincement
[02:07:29] that led him
[02:07:30] to make such a radical change
[02:07:32] of heart.
[02:07:33] And that goes back
[02:07:33] to that whole idea
[02:07:34] of the truth
[02:07:35] that you discover
[02:07:35] for yourself.
[02:07:36] And sometimes it's hard
[02:07:37] for you to discover
[02:07:38] that truth,
[02:07:38] but when you do,
[02:07:39] it's very powerful.
[02:07:40] When your friend
[02:07:41] is lying in front of you
[02:07:42] dying from,
[02:07:43] you know,
[02:07:44] evil,
[02:07:45] more goth wounds,
[02:07:46] it does tend to change
[02:07:47] your perspective.
[02:07:48] Right.
[02:07:49] So,
[02:07:50] everyone,
[02:07:50] we just had an
[02:07:51] off-air conversation
[02:07:53] about how we have
[02:07:54] about 15 to 20 pages
[02:07:55] left of feedback
[02:07:56] and we've already been
[02:07:58] on the mic two hours.
[02:07:59] So,
[02:07:59] we are going to split this
[02:08:01] into two episodes
[02:08:01] and that'll come out
[02:08:02] a few days later,
[02:08:03] the second part of the feedback.
[02:08:04] Mark,
[02:08:04] though,
[02:08:05] is not going to be...
[02:08:05] I know,
[02:08:06] so shocking
[02:08:08] that we went long.
[02:08:09] Mark is not going to be
[02:08:10] joining us
[02:08:11] for the second part
[02:08:11] of the feedback.
[02:08:12] So,
[02:08:12] I want to give Mark
[02:08:13] one last chance
[02:08:15] to say his piece
[02:08:16] on Rings of Power
[02:08:17] season two.
[02:08:19] super excited
[02:08:20] by this show
[02:08:21] in the future
[02:08:22] because
[02:08:24] there's a lot
[02:08:25] of moral questions
[02:08:26] it raises
[02:08:26] that I hope
[02:08:27] they continue to raise
[02:08:28] and like moral
[02:08:29] taken like generally
[02:08:31] like the,
[02:08:32] the good and evil
[02:08:34] and these things
[02:08:35] that you talk about
[02:08:36] being kind of superficial
[02:08:37] with Tolkien
[02:08:38] which are definitely
[02:08:39] not in the deep lore
[02:08:40] and there's an opportunity
[02:08:42] here
[02:08:42] and that makes me excited.
[02:08:44] You know,
[02:08:45] as a,
[02:08:46] a San Diego
[02:08:47] sports fan
[02:08:48] as a kid
[02:08:48] it was always
[02:08:49] the possibility
[02:08:49] of success,
[02:08:51] success,
[02:08:51] never the actual
[02:08:52] success,
[02:08:53] right?
[02:08:53] Go Padres
[02:08:54] they're playing
[02:08:54] right now
[02:08:55] by the way
[02:08:55] but in the playoffs
[02:08:56] but I,
[02:08:58] I can't help
[02:08:59] but hope
[02:09:00] they can execute
[02:09:02] well on some
[02:09:03] of the promise
[02:09:03] that we've seen
[02:09:04] in this season
[02:09:04] because it's been
[02:09:05] so much better
[02:09:06] in so many ways
[02:09:07] than the first
[02:09:08] with,
[02:09:09] with some warts
[02:09:10] but,
[02:09:10] but a lot
[02:09:10] of great stuff
[02:09:11] and so
[02:09:12] really optimistic
[02:09:14] and we'll find out
[02:09:15] in five years
[02:09:16] when they release
[02:09:17] next season
[02:09:17] I don't know
[02:09:18] hopefully not
[02:09:18] more than two
[02:09:19] but,
[02:09:20] um,
[02:09:21] thanks so much
[02:09:22] for including me
[02:09:23] as a part of this
[02:09:24] was a blast
[02:09:24] I'm glad I got
[02:09:25] to do all my
[02:09:26] musical hijinks
[02:09:27] and ask some
[02:09:29] deep lore questions
[02:09:30] of you all
[02:09:30] Yeah,
[02:09:31] and thank you
[02:09:31] for doing the game show
[02:09:32] that was awesome
[02:09:32] Yeah,
[02:09:33] that was a lot of fun
[02:09:33] It was really fun
[02:09:34] thanks so much
[02:09:35] for all the work
[02:09:35] you put into this
[02:09:36] and I'll just
[02:09:36] remind you that
[02:09:37] hope is never meager
[02:09:38] even when it is meager
[02:09:39] That's right
[02:09:42] So,
[02:09:42] Mark,
[02:09:43] can,
[02:09:43] before you go
[02:09:43] well,
[02:09:44] you're staying on
[02:09:45] until the end here
[02:09:46] so,
[02:09:46] um,
[02:09:46] uh,
[02:09:47] can you tell us
[02:09:47] what you're doing
[02:09:48] on Nevermind the Music
[02:09:49] this week?
[02:09:51] This week
[02:09:51] Nevermind the Music
[02:09:52] we are talking
[02:09:53] about Stevie Wonder's
[02:09:55] tune
[02:09:55] Don't You Worry About a Thing
[02:09:57] and I'm talking about
[02:09:59] certain kinds of
[02:10:00] chords and melodies
[02:10:01] and Nicole is talking
[02:10:03] about what it means
[02:10:04] to worry
[02:10:04] and remember that podcast
[02:10:06] where she talks about
[02:10:07] how,
[02:10:08] grief is kind of
[02:10:09] a beautiful thing
[02:10:10] well,
[02:10:11] we have kind of
[02:10:12] a hot take
[02:10:12] on worrying also
[02:10:14] um,
[02:10:15] which
[02:10:15] Interesting
[02:10:16] is,
[02:10:16] is a fun one
[02:10:17] and we goof around
[02:10:18] a bit in this episode too
[02:10:19] so,
[02:10:20] check us out
[02:10:21] this is,
[02:10:22] this is coming out
[02:10:22] uh,
[02:10:22] this week,
[02:10:23] right?
[02:10:23] It's already out
[02:10:25] No,
[02:10:25] no,
[02:10:26] sorry
[02:10:26] No,
[02:10:27] I mean
[02:10:27] Oh,
[02:10:27] oh,
[02:10:28] oh,
[02:10:28] I was like
[02:10:28] your podcast
[02:10:29] is already out
[02:10:30] Um,
[02:10:31] no,
[02:10:31] this podcast
[02:10:31] is already out
[02:10:32] You are listening
[02:10:33] to my voice
[02:10:34] because this podcast
[02:10:35] has come out
[02:10:36] that is true
[02:10:37] Yes,
[02:10:38] this week
[02:10:39] yeah,
[02:10:39] so that it's the Stevie Wonder episode
[02:10:40] so
[02:10:41] I meant
[02:10:41] I meant
[02:10:42] your Stevie Wonder episode
[02:10:43] is already out
[02:10:44] to be clear
[02:10:44] I got you
[02:10:45] to be clear
[02:10:45] it's out
[02:10:46] um,
[02:10:46] and people
[02:10:48] write in with your thoughts
[02:10:49] write in with your questions
[02:10:51] uh,
[02:10:52] check us out
[02:10:52] happy to have
[02:10:53] happy to have more
[02:10:54] and
[02:10:55] fun to
[02:10:56] talk to all you
[02:10:56] about
[02:10:57] um,
[02:10:57] such a cool show
[02:10:59] Very cool
[02:10:59] Yeah,
[02:10:59] we look forward
[02:11:00] to having you back
[02:11:01] on other
[02:11:01] you and Nicole both
[02:11:02] because Nicole was just
[02:11:03] on Agatha
[02:11:03] with uh,
[02:11:04] Jean and
[02:11:05] um,
[02:11:06] Alicia
[02:11:07] and uh,
[02:11:08] we're looking forward
[02:11:08] to having you
[02:11:09] um,
[02:11:09] you know,
[02:11:10] sit in on
[02:11:10] various pods
[02:11:11] so
[02:11:11] Yeah
[02:11:13] Yes,
[02:11:13] indeed
[02:11:14] So on
[02:11:16] the rest of the network
[02:11:17] uh,
[02:11:17] Alicia is doing
[02:11:18] The Craft
[02:11:19] and The Craft Legacy
[02:11:21] as her Spooktopper
[02:11:22] specials on
[02:11:23] Woolshift Dust
[02:11:24] She's also doing
[02:11:26] Vision Season 1
[02:11:27] Episode 7
[02:11:29] and Season 2
[02:11:30] Episode 9
[02:11:31] Shadows of the Sith
[02:11:32] and
[02:11:33] In the High Republic
[02:11:34] and The High Republic
[02:11:35] Mailbag 1
[02:11:36] That's on the
[02:11:36] Star Wars Canon
[02:11:37] Timeline Podcast
[02:11:40] We just
[02:11:42] recorded
[02:11:42] a
[02:11:43] podcast for
[02:11:44] The Penguin
[02:11:45] Episodes 2
[02:11:46] and 3
[02:11:46] Jean and Alicia
[02:11:47] and I did
[02:11:48] and uh,
[02:11:49] I've got that
[02:11:49] in my queue
[02:11:50] for editing
[02:11:50] and that'll be out
[02:11:51] um,
[02:11:52] this week
[02:11:52] at some point
[02:11:52] as well
[02:11:53] Well,
[02:11:53] David,
[02:11:54] you've ruined
[02:11:54] my segue
[02:11:54] because in
[02:11:55] between that
[02:11:56] I was going
[02:11:56] to talk about
[02:11:57] how Anthony
[02:11:58] surprised us
[02:11:59] with a podcast
[02:12:00] on The Penguin
[02:12:01] Yep
[02:12:02] to go along
[02:12:03] with ours
[02:12:05] So yeah
[02:12:05] he's doing
[02:12:06] a Properly Howard
[02:12:07] thing
[02:12:07] every now
[02:12:08] and then
[02:12:08] on The Penguin
[02:12:09] just like
[02:12:09] you and
[02:12:10] Alicia
[02:12:10] and John are
[02:12:11] Yeah,
[02:12:12] I think that was a
[02:12:12] one-off
[02:12:13] on their part
[02:12:14] and we're gonna
[02:12:14] try to do
[02:12:15] They said they're
[02:12:15] probably gonna
[02:12:15] come back
[02:12:16] Right
[02:12:16] Probably gonna
[02:12:17] come back
[02:12:17] at the end
[02:12:17] of the season
[02:12:18] Right
[02:12:18] and we're gonna
[02:12:19] try to
[02:12:20] catch along
[02:12:20] the season
[02:12:21] as we go
[02:12:22] a little bit
[02:12:23] more regular
[02:12:23] now that
[02:12:24] Alicia's back
[02:12:24] from her travels
[02:12:25] Yeah
[02:12:26] Yeah
[02:12:26] and before I
[02:12:27] go fully
[02:12:28] into Lorehounds
[02:12:28] mode
[02:12:30] Radioactive
[02:12:31] Ramblings
[02:12:31] is back
[02:12:32] in a surprise
[02:12:33] way
[02:12:33] because they
[02:12:33] did their
[02:12:34] Fallout
[02:12:34] lore
[02:12:35] and they also
[02:12:35] just started
[02:12:36] covering the
[02:12:36] Red Rising
[02:12:37] book series
[02:12:38] which I've read
[02:12:39] and it's a
[02:12:39] pretty good
[02:12:39] book series
[02:12:40] so go check
[02:12:42] that out
[02:12:42] if you wanna
[02:12:42] It's kind
[02:12:44] of like
[02:12:45] The Expanse
[02:12:46] but also a lot
[02:12:46] more like
[02:12:47] action-y
[02:12:49] Mark,
[02:12:49] you're nodding
[02:12:50] Have you read
[02:12:50] this series?
[02:12:51] No, no
[02:12:52] I'm just
[02:12:52] interested
[02:12:52] from what
[02:12:53] you're saying
[02:12:53] It's interesting
[02:12:54] Okay
[02:12:54] Okay
[02:12:55] It's a lot
[02:12:56] more like
[02:12:56] fantastical
[02:12:57] than The Expanse
[02:12:58] but it's sort
[02:12:58] of similar
[02:12:59] in you know
[02:13:00] the humans
[02:13:01] colonizing the
[02:13:02] galaxy
[02:13:03] and how
[02:13:04] politics
[02:13:04] kind of develop
[02:13:07] So
[02:13:07] on the main
[02:13:09] Lorehounds feed
[02:13:09] you have this
[02:13:10] which is a wrap-up
[02:13:11] of Rings of Power
[02:13:12] then later in the
[02:13:13] week you'll have
[02:13:14] a feedback episode
[02:13:15] You've got the
[02:13:16] Alien Romulus
[02:13:17] community feedback
[02:13:18] which David
[02:13:19] started listening
[02:13:20] to that now
[02:13:21] You've let
[02:13:22] too many
[02:13:22] Brits in
[02:13:23] I'm gonna
[02:13:23] have to go
[02:13:23] rescue a
[02:13:24] nest of
[02:13:24] bald eagles
[02:13:26] while eating
[02:13:27] beef jerky
[02:13:28] and firing
[02:13:29] a gun
[02:13:29] into the air
[02:13:30] That's really
[02:13:30] the only way
[02:13:32] I can
[02:13:32] bring back
[02:13:33] I'm gonna
[02:13:33] call my
[02:13:34] friend Paul
[02:13:34] Revere
[02:13:34] and we're
[02:13:35] gonna go
[02:13:35] and save
[02:13:36] this podcast
[02:13:36] from the
[02:13:37] British
[02:13:40] And
[02:13:41] Agatha
[02:13:42] Agatha
[02:13:43] is going
[02:13:43] every single
[02:13:44] week
[02:13:44] You've got
[02:13:45] episode
[02:13:46] five
[02:13:46] this week
[02:13:47] So check
[02:13:48] that out
[02:13:48] Alicia
[02:13:49] and John
[02:13:49] are doing
[02:13:50] regular
[02:13:50] coverage
[02:13:50] every week
[02:13:51] Then on
[02:13:52] the subscriber
[02:13:52] side
[02:13:53] you have
[02:13:53] Elevensees
[02:13:54] on Prey
[02:13:55] the 2022
[02:13:56] Predator
[02:13:57] sequel
[02:13:57] taking place
[02:13:59] in
[02:14:00] colonial
[02:14:01] America
[02:14:02] following an
[02:14:04] indigenous
[02:14:04] protagonist
[02:14:06] podcast
[02:14:08] Any other
[02:14:09] That's a
[02:14:10] very fun
[02:14:10] podcast
[02:14:11] It was
[02:14:11] very fun
[02:14:11] I listened
[02:14:12] to a little
[02:14:12] bit of it
[02:14:13] today too
[02:14:13] Yeah
[02:14:14] Yeah so
[02:14:15] did I
[02:14:16] That was a lot
[02:14:16] of fun
[02:14:17] Well anyway
[02:14:18] thank you everyone
[02:14:19] for being here
[02:14:20] and for a
[02:14:21] lovely season
[02:14:21] We'll be back
[02:14:22] again with more
[02:14:22] feedback
[02:14:23] David can you
[02:14:24] just read out
[02:14:25] the thank yous
[02:14:25] All right
[02:14:26] to our
[02:14:27] discord
[02:14:28] server
[02:14:28] boosters
[02:14:29] Aaron K
[02:14:29] Taylor
[02:14:30] the
[02:14:30] thriller
[02:14:30] dork of
[02:14:31] the
[02:14:31] ninjas
[02:14:31] doove
[02:14:32] 71
[02:14:33] Athena
[02:14:33] Agilea
[02:14:34] Tina
[02:14:35] Lestu
[02:14:35] Nancy M
[02:14:36] Ghost
[02:14:37] of Perdition
[02:14:38] and Richard W
[02:14:39] Thank you all
[02:14:40] so very much
[02:14:41] for donating
[02:14:42] your nitro
[02:14:42] bits to the
[02:14:43] server to make
[02:14:44] a more
[02:14:45] funner place
[02:14:46] for our
[02:14:46] community to
[02:14:47] gather
[02:14:47] and if you
[02:14:48] haven't checked
[02:14:49] out the
[02:14:49] discord
[02:14:50] I invite you
[02:14:51] to come on
[02:14:51] over
[02:14:52] to our
[02:14:59] lore master
[02:15:00] subscribers
[02:15:01] our top
[02:15:02] tier
[02:15:02] subscribers
[02:15:03] who really
[02:15:03] are a
[02:15:04] cornerstone
[02:15:04] for our
[02:15:05] ability to
[02:15:06] create all
[02:15:07] this crazy
[02:15:07] amount of
[02:15:08] content that
[02:15:08] we just
[02:15:09] have
[02:15:09] streaming
[02:15:09] at you
[02:15:10] this fire
[02:15:11] hose
[02:15:11] Samarshan
[02:15:13] Michael G
[02:15:13] Michelle E
[02:15:14] Brian P
[02:15:15] SC
[02:15:15] Peter OH
[02:15:17] Bettina W
[02:15:17] Adam S
[02:15:19] Nancy M
[02:15:19] Doove 71
[02:15:21] Brian
[02:15:21] 8063
[02:15:22] Frederick H
[02:15:23] Sarah L
[02:15:24] Gareth C
[02:15:25] Eric F
[02:15:26] Matthew M
[02:15:27] Sarah M
[02:15:28] DJ Miwa
[02:15:29] Andra B
[02:15:30] Kwong Yu
[02:15:50] Dead Eye
[02:15:51] forever
[02:15:52] last but
[02:15:53] never least
[02:15:53] Adrian
[02:15:54] thank you
[02:15:55] all
[02:15:55] one and
[02:15:56] all for
[02:15:56] your
[02:15:57] subscriptions
[02:15:57] and your
[02:15:58] ongoing
[02:15:58] support
[02:15:58] if you
[02:15:59] are not
[02:16:00] a
[02:16:00] subscriber
[02:16:00] and you're
[02:16:01] just listening
[02:16:01] on the
[02:16:01] public
[02:16:01] thank you
[02:16:02] for listening
[02:16:03] we just
[02:16:03] are happy
[02:16:04] to have
[02:16:04] you here
[02:16:05] and part
[02:16:05] of the
[02:16:06] community
[02:16:07] and
[02:16:08] Mark
[02:16:09] Marilyn
[02:16:10] great to
[02:16:10] see you
[02:16:11] both
[02:16:11] thank you
[02:16:11] for
[02:16:12] everything
[02:16:13] John
[02:16:13] John
[02:16:14] you're not
[02:16:14] John
[02:16:14] you're
[02:16:15] John
[02:16:17] I'm
[02:16:17] John
[02:16:18] when I
[02:16:18] read
[02:16:18] Jordan's
[02:16:19] emails
[02:16:20] I think
[02:16:23] Jordan and
[02:16:24] John
[02:16:24] would have
[02:16:25] some things
[02:16:26] to say
[02:16:26] about that
[02:16:27] but
[02:16:27] thank you
[02:16:28] for organizing
[02:16:29] this tonight
[02:16:31] and we'll
[02:16:32] see you
[02:16:32] on the
[02:16:32] next
[02:16:32] spot
[02:16:32] see
[02:16:33] you
[02:16:33] then
[02:16:33] the
[02:16:35] lorehounds
[02:16:35] podcast
[02:16:35] is produced
[02:16:36] and published
[02:16:36] by the
[02:16:37] lorehounds
[02:16:37] you can
[02:16:38] send
[02:16:38] questions
[02:16:38] and
[02:16:39] feedback
[02:16:39] and
[02:16:39] voicemails
[02:16:40] at
[02:16:40] the
[02:16:41] lorehounds
[02:16:41] dot com
[02:16:42] slash
[02:16:42] contact
[02:16:43] get
[02:16:44] early
[02:16:44] and
[02:16:44] add
[02:16:44] free
[02:16:45] access
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[02:16:48] the lorehounds
[02:16:49] any
[02:16:49] opinions
[02:16:50] stated
[02:16:50] are ours
[02:16:50] personally
[02:16:51] and
[02:16:51] do
[02:16:51] not
[02:16:51] reflect
[02:16:51] the
[02:16:52] opinion
[02:16:52] of
[02:16:52] or
[02:16:52] belong
[02:16:53] to
[02:16:53] any
[02:16:53] employers
[02:16:53] or
[02:16:53] other
[02:16:54] entities
[02:16:54] thanks
[02:16:55] for
[02:16:55] listening