The Wheel of Time - S02E07 - Daes Daemar

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_08]: Welcome to The Wheel of Time podcast. We're The Lorehounds, your guides to Randland. I'm David.

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm John and this is our cover of the Amazon Prime Fantasy series The Wheel of Time.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_08]: In this podcast we're going to do a scene by scene breakdown of season 2 episode 7.

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_08]: I see you've put some pronunciation that's in here for me. Thank you John.

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I saw that I saw this title and I was like, I'm going to write this out for him.

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_08]: I appreciate that. Thank you.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_08]: Day is Daemar?

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep, the great game it translates to in the background.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, very cool.

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_08]: Hey, oh, and you know, I know we're going to talk about feedback.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_08]: But I think somebody sent in some feedback with a linguistic quote.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_08]: So we have to talk about that. Nice.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Nice.

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, be sure to stick around to the end of the podcast for programming notes about our September

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Podcasts and schedule followed by our white tower segment where Alicia said I and I do a deep dive

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_02]: into the lore of the books.

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_08]: For early access, add free episodes and exclusive content, visit us at patreon.com-the-warhounds.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_08]: Also, we'd like to ask if you are enjoying our podcast coverage of all the shows and projects that we're working on,

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[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Specifically, on the wheel of time, we've got a new feed set up just for this show.

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[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_08]: And we'd love to respond to your questions, thoughts and theories on air.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_08]: So send us feedback for the next episode.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_08]: As a reminder, we're recording these well, maybe not this particular one but generally, well, we only got one more to go too, right?

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_08]: So we have had access to screeners so we've been recording these a little bit in advance.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_08]: But we've got a good pile up of email today, so lots of exciting feedback and we're going to do, I don't know what we're doing for our season wrap.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, we got a little bit more feedback.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Said emails to WOT at the lorehounds.com or head to our website, the lorehounds.com and either use the voice mail feature or the context form.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_02]: You can also post the message in our discord server and we can include those as well links to all of that is in the show notes.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_02]: David.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes sir.

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_02]: What do you think of this episode now that we're a couple days past?

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I should I should preface this by saying we had sick family and just light got in the way of this week and just our recording got pushed.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So apologies for the little bit later this week, although it's going to be out the day after the episode so that'll be all right.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, it's not too bad.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Right, so anyway, we have finally gotten together.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_02]: We are talking about the episode would you think?

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, it was um, I'm still there's still so much that I'm trying to learn and sort of orient myself to and there's some, I don't know if it's just the screener quality or if it's a production you know, if there's some post processing that they didn't do for our copies but there's just some stuff that I didn't feel was great.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And with production, um, but you know I watch it on prime to this morning and I thought a great.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, and I do know that our our screeners are a lower resolution so it's going to be lacking that polish.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I wonder it's not in 4k it's not not in ultra HD whatever.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_08]: So yeah, and I wonder if there's some color grading and some other post production effects that they're able to put in that yeah that they didn't because I think they make the screeners available earlier.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know anyway.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_08]: A couple things, I feel like I'm finally we're finally getting into it very early in the season.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_08]: It felt like a lot of track being laid and a lot of setup being done very typical right for a show.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_08]: And I feel like now I'm like, oh okay now we're getting into characters now we're getting into motivations now we're seeing plots you know we set something up and now it's actually starting to pay off or we're exploring it a little bit more

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_08]: So I felt that these last couple of episodes.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm getting a little bit more immersed into the world and then I'm feeling a little bit like dang there's only eight episodes.

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, I just I'm just getting going and then whoop the seasons over so we'll see but I think they did season three already right they filmed season three already

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_08]: Or started filming it before the story.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they wrapped it I think it's done.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, that'd be great.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so maybe next year we'll get it. We need something next year.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, oh we I think there's gonna be plenty next year. I think I think we're gonna have a little hitch but they they banked enough content.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think the first half of the year might be a little bit a little bit slow, but we'll see some there's some good stuff coming up.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So didn't they wrap rings of power right early in the writer strike?

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_08]: I think they did or it was overlapping a little bit but it wasn't as affected because it was a UK production.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the main thing was they only had a couple of reshoots left to do so the right acting strike had not started yet.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And so they just went through it without the writers for the last couple of reshoots which you know debateable on that debateable on that the effects of that but at least we will get something next year probably.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, so the one other kind of issue that I had with this is it.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_08]: There feels like there's a little jetpacking going on and for those who don't know what what you mean by jetpacking that's a term that was sort of invented for the end of the last couple of seasons of game of thrones where characters would suddenly.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, but across the continent or some far away place and then pop back.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Except there's an explanation in the lore in this universe.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_08]: Right. So yeah there is because of the the dream world.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_02]: The dream world tell us the truth.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_08]: Tell you can say dream world. It's okay. Yeah, I know I was trying to remember what the phrase.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_08]: Telleron Rio to telleron Rio to if I can say errorugula can say telleron i really need to practice anyway.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_08]: I just it did feel a little bit of jetpacking and maybe that's there is a well developed geography for this world and I have not fully understood.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm being very careful about going on the internet looking for answers.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, don't. I think there is a show only wiki.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, but I don't know which one it is and I'm not going to tell anybody because I'm going to give them the wrong information that we're going to get.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_08]: It's right.

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_08]: I did look up somebody today because I wanted to understand what tribe she's from and then I like got spoiled because the Google pair is one thing.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_08]: What's your name?

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Avienda.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Avienda.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_02]: She is a maiden what's going. What got spoiled for you? I want to know all fair.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_08]: But yeah, it was in the Google search and I was like oh damn.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't I should have said that earlier in the season. Do not Google any of these names.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_02]: If you Google iguine, you will have a major plot point spoiled by auto complete on google.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I wanted to look up the actor who plays iguine today and I just put a guene actor and then I just made sure that I only looked at that.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the auto completes are brutal for the wheel of time.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_08]: Really are.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I mean, great in other reasons but yeah, if you don't want to be spoiled do not Google's.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Do they do the Google's?

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_02]: You can write it if you have questions. You know we're here or go to the discord.

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, there was a lot of chatter on the discord last month and there.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, a lot of debate over variance veracity in her statements.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, interesting. I kind of stayed out over the last couple of days just because I know we were waiting to get a recording schedules lined up and I wanted to come in with you know.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_08]: I can't wait.

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_08]: My hot takes fresh.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_02]: There you go right off the griddle.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_08]: Cool.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_08]: So and for you what did you guys think? I know you did your white tower segment with a leisure.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_08]: Which I haven't had a chance to talk to Alicia and while I hope she's enjoying it as well. I choose to love it. She's loving it and I'm loving it too.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I bet the way if you listen to the white tower segment today, you may hear some children going shouting each other's names in the background because you know like

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like if I had to record, I never record really when they're awake but in this case I just had to because of the way that my schedule was going this week and

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So you may hear some children sounds and it's fine.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, anyway, I really like this episode.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I know Alicia did too.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: This felt like a breath of fresh air to me because last episode felt so suffocating.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I can do that.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And in a good way, right? It was supposed to be suffocating.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And so this was great. There were a lot of satisfying conclusions thing to things.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_02]: They finally resolved the is marine still thing which I never thought she was but I was tired of it anyway.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I was tired of it.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just going to surround it.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_08]: And let's go and then show. Yeah, and then hopefully she can be less inseparable.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, she was awful in the show and I think that they let that linger too long.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I understand what they were going for with it but I think that it overstayed its welcome.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it really negatively impacted the view of the character that a lot of people have and that's a shame.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a big shame because she's a great character.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_08]: And that's one of those decisions that a show runner and the writers have to make and it's like salt.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, a lot too much.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_08]: And it's not great and then a little too little in your,

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_08]: It's a tough thing to hit the just right spot.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's probably my main criticism of this season overall.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Structurally I think that they left marine stilled, sorry.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_02]: She wasn't stilled.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Left marine shielded too long.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And they left marine mean to everyone for too long and just like,

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_02]: insufferably mean, right? Like unnecessarily mean to her nephew and whatnot and it's just,

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just very hard to watch and just it didn't really add anything to the character.

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Like what do you get out of that? What did we get out of that for that character?

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_02]: All we learned was that when she's in a tight spot, she gets mean.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_02]: That doesn't do anything for motivations or the story or anything.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't understand why they did that for so long.

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_08]: I think that's one of those writers tricks that, and I guess it was on,

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_08]: I think I went on probably a little too much about it last episode.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_08]: I think it was where it's like, we don't have time.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_08]: We must go now.

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_08]: It's like no take two seconds and explain to me what the hell is going on and then we can save all this drama and when you get to the real stuff.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_08]: I really, it really annoys me when that gets done.

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_08]: And it kind of was working in a bigger way with wearing in this season, like you said,

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_08]: They just, for what purpose? We get it.

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_08]: We know we need to, you know, land to peel off and then come back again.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_08]: A couple of little setups here are there but yeah, it went on too long and it felt like a little two

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_08]: Cheap of a writer's trick to push drama.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, the only thing that we learned about this character is that she gets grumpy when she can't channel.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_02]: That's it.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, that's my biggest complaint. It's a pretty small complaint.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So I mean, I'm loving this season.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they did a fantastic job at adapting it.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that I'm wondering how you feel about Ren now because I think he's finally starting to be a person and less of a moby kid.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_08]: I, we could talk about it when we get to some of those scenes.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_08]: But yeah, I think again, maybe all except for one character.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm starting to see some depth and complexity.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_08]: And that's what I want from any show is I want to see character develop the kids are growing up.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, and it doesn't have to be growth right? It could just be development.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, you could start in a good place and end in a bad place or start at a bad place and in a good place.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_08]: Right. There's a, who is it? The Fair and Hight 451 author.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_08]: Apologies. My memory is always.

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't think of it right now either.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we were talking about.

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, it's a guy you like. Anyway, he, I think he gave a famous lecture where there's these like seven types of us.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's not Fahrenheit for a 50 and that's slaughterhouse five.

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's how it's going to get.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_08]: Anyway, yeah, Kurt Vonnegut's lecture about, you know, these different starting places for characters and then the shapes of stories.

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, that's it.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, you know, I, again, I don't need, I don't care what the trajectory is just that there is a trajectory.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_08]: And then a character's not locked into their character. And I think there's only one, one character in this story right now that is feeling locked for me and which is parent.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, yeah, I can get that.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Parent is not super popular even in books.

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that people, I think his arc through books six is pretty good.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And then after that, he feels a little bit wasted at times. He has some cool moments, but I think that he was underdeveloped even in the books.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, yeah, I think you've mentioned that a few times as well. So yeah, so we'll see where it goes. But yeah, cool.

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, all right, I think it's time we get into the episode breakdown. But first, we've got to do some production notes.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_02]: David, you've never read the books.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Correct. I read all the books most of them multiple times. I think I think somebody wrote in feedback about that. They want to know my, my approach to the books.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we'll talk about later.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_08]: Did I see that Marilyn Arpukila, our favorite Tolkien scholar is finally cracking the books again?

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, well, that's the book, nock volume, too. I've already decided. I don't know why we didn't talk about this, but I've decided.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay. Fair enough.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep. We won't spoil ahead in the books. We will only make comparisons with events that have already happened in the show, so something happened differently in the books and you've already seen it on screen. We'll talk about that. But that's it.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_02]: For deep lore and book talk for all 14 books plus the prequel, stick around to the white tower segment at the end. It'll be after the full breakdown. You'll get music. You'll get a big spoiler warning. So don't worry about it.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_02]: We will not spoil you on this podcast unless you want us to.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think you guys even do some general takes before you get into this. Yes. Yes, and then we do an ad break which is just music if you're on the Patreon.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we talk spoilers.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_08]: Right. Yeah. So I know some people in the discord were saying gosh, I really want to hear Alicia's takes and then they're like, yeah, you've ready to go into the white tower.

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_02]: You can listen to the first part of it and then when we say get out.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you can stop it. So yeah, yeah. So you have time. You have time. Cool. All right. David. Let's get started on the episode. We start off 20 years before the start of the show.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Marine and Swan trade dreams about the future in the white tower. They visit the Isidai guitar with a message from the Amarlin seat that the IEL have retreated and the war is over.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Guitar goes into a trans, tells them the dragon is being born on Dragon Mount and charges them to tell no one and find him.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Guitar dies leaving marine and Swan staring at each other in disbelief.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Did you like this exposition David? No.

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_08]: Really. Okay. Yeah. No. It was the Swan and marine stuff was fine.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_08]: I like that we get a little bit more backstory on marine's family because she mentions her parents and siblings.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_08]: So we get a little bit more about what's going on there.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_08]: I did have some questions if you could feel me in a little bit about the war but first just the it's a device, you know,

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_08]: the dragon's being reborn. No, I died. You know, it's okay. Okay.

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, it is a functional piece of plot device.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah. Fine. But you did not win me. Sure.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Sure. But I'm not complaining about it either. I get it. Right. You know, we had to you don't want to spend too long in that backstory exposition stuff.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_08]: You need to trigger your character so that they can, you know, do the thing. And obviously we have a big setup for later in this episode with Swan and marine and their relationship.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_08]: And so I felt all of that was fine. It was important. I understand the decision they made.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_08]: Just didn't the actual implementation of it just didn't. Didn't, didn't wow me. But you know, part of it is I think you'll learn more about the war as we go on.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't want to tell you too much. But okay. Cool. Essentially this was a war between the IEL and some wetlanders, as they say, right? Some ranlanders.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay. So that IEL are the tribe that Aviendas from right or tribe. IEL are a full people. There are there are different groups within the IEL as well.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. Right. Yeah. And she's a, I'm, Aviendas, a maiden of the spear. So they kind of have two or here class groups. They have two allegiances. They have their born allegiance plus they have their, um, their maidenhood.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And you see that they even have a sign language. They call it a maiden hand talk.

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah. So which, you know, the Attraities had in Dune. They had a battle language that was well, you know what I can't, I can't, I can't define that.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_08]: Stu, we're, we're, we're eating stew here. It's all. Yep. We're having fun. Yeah. They have, they have some doony stuff going on here for sure for reals.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Don't tell me, yeah. Like you said, don't tell me too much about the war with the IEL, but was it like an invasion type of war or was it a sort of a natural conflict over borders and resources or what was the, there was a reason there was a reason and it was the IEL came.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_02]: They attacked Kyrian specifically and they left at a certain point and depending on who you ask the IEL accomplish their goal or the ranlander is drove them out.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So what you're saying is the wheel weaves, the wheel weaves. Yeah. It's not, it's not that spoilery, but I want the show to be able to tell you when she don't time, you know?

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I appreciate that. So yeah, I mean, I think that the vision scene was done a little silly but other than that, I think it was a good scene. I like seeing Marine and Swan in there.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and they're youth, you know, dreaming about everything what could have been. And it's really heartbreaking because you see them look at each other like why us? Why were we the ones in this room with this woman?

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_08]: Mm-hmm. Just my chance. Right. And so yeah, but the wheel, so you know who knows, which are not, but yeah.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_02]: In the books, and I think this is in New Spring and the Prequel. They were accepted at the time, not I said I, not full I said I. And so that's why they weren't out helping with the war.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Usually we're kept in the tower and they were actually with the Amirlen seat and with Gitarra and Gitarra to you know, did that foretelling in front of all of them. And the Amirlen goes yeah I need I need you to help me with this, you know, because I don't have anybody else and I don't want to tell anybody else.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. And then the Amirlen was later murdered but they just didn't involve the Amirlen with this.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_08]: Right. Makes it, it's a little cleaner. But yeah. And then it sets up a, it sets up the bubble that these two characters have to live within and puts them into dramatic conflict not not, not conflict conflict but you know what I mean tension that's the word.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_08]: It's the inciting event, right? Yes exactly puts them in dramatic tension and it creates a secrecy bubble around them and gives them their motivations.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_08]: Right. So I think it's that all of that seems good to me in terms of motivations.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. And I should correct myself actually the Amirlen seat that that was reference here in the books was not murder. She died and there was a little bit of funny business around it, right? Like they it's suspected that perhaps there was a play.

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. Yeah. But yeah, I think that this is fine to give us our inciting event. It is interesting that the inciting event really happens 20 years before the sort of series and that's that's a pretty unique thing in the Wheel of Time I think.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So let's move on to the current Amirlen seat giving Marine a scolding for withholding. Well, that's you was stilled.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So, one has decided to take a more hands on approach with the dragon and request to see Rand.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_08]: More of Marine stupid people decisions here. You know that she did tell Swan and this was I think I liked that they gave us the opening here with their little backstory 20 years before.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-huh. Because it makes then everything else that's going on between Swan and more rain more poignant and yeah more personal for sure.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_08]: And one of the things that I was thinking about with Marine is that her betrayal of not telling Swan that she was you know quote unquote stilled is even more of a breaking of the trust.

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_08]: Then say Swan having to have Marine do the swearing on the the rod, you know, to obey her.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_08]: Because you know that at the end of this, there's there's more drama between these two but you know, we're, my rain not telling Swan because they are responsible for this whole dragon stuff.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_08]: I think the dragon protecting him training him all of these kinds of things and the fact that Marine withheld a very important piece of information from Swan is a huge violation of when I perceive as there are trust relationship.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_08]: Be they lovers, be they just political allies, be they, I said, I allies, whatever the whole thing that really breaks a huge bond of trust between them.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that when you look at Marine her biggest character flawed, this is in both the books in the show is that she always think she knows better.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_02]: She always thinks that she's the smartest person in the room.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_08]: Big sister.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And she is often right but she's not always right and it takes a long time for her to realize that and I still don't think she has at this point. She started to a little bit with friend giving him a choice.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_02]: That was not really a choice.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_02]: The land fear thing, he's like hey here is this opportunity to do something great but it's your choice.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay so yeah well that's playing out well within the story.

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah and it's having a good impact in terms of we're all really frustrated and upset with my rain for her choices.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_08]: You're right.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah and even with the stilling right she thinks she's still she's convinced she's still doesn't even consider it could be something else.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_02]: It takes land thinking outside the box to figure it out which pivoting over to that conversation.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_08]: Well no we're gonna we'll save it because it's yeah we'll save it.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah I forgot where we were in the order of the scenes when things certain happened because we have now we roll over into the conversation with land and in land.

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So the next scene as you said is land telling ran how to approach the island and observing his new sword forms and his new practice with the sword.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah I thought this was a really good conversation.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_08]: I think maybe it was my second favorite scene out of the episode.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_08]: I liked Rand he had a real funny smirk in his eye when he saw Rand do what is it crane dipping wing or whatever that I forget what the form was but he was just like oh aren't you cute isn't that sweet little baby dragon.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah yeah it was it was really great and I like you know Rand is not Rand land is is gone through some evolutions in this and and again.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_08]: They're giving me development with land and I'm seeing stuff go on with him and and I appreciate that he's not just this strong silent type we know water person but he.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_08]: He's got motivations and he's trying to work something out which is you know he was on a mission with my range she cut him off yet he's still on the mission right.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_08]: And yeah there's a scene later with my rain which I think is really great because you we see that he has figured something out and so I really appreciate what what they're doing with his character.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Right yeah land is the primary sword tutor for Rand in the books at least early in the books and so they can really have a look here yeah he really has in god and a chance to do that in the show.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I think book two even opens with a scene of them training so I'm hoping that they show a little bit more of that in the show they get they get ran some sword tutoring because he needs it.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_08]: He laid some track for you. He needs a lot six months six months and you haven't learned squat anyway.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_08]: Well get the fair criticism it very fair.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_08]: I wanted to just mention something to this thing that lands says you know one rule about being a man is to you know stand on your feet and you know.

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay yeah that's true and I think that's a rule for everyone you know no matter what your physiology or your so's you know how how you relate to yourself have values have principles.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_08]: Stand on those face the world with them be flexible and if you have to change or reevaluate your values or your principles that's part of life right we can we got a bend we can't break and something that we have to shift.

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_08]: We realize things but this idea of just standing up and looking at you know being in being looking at life from your feet is just a good general principle for everyone has nothing to do with gender and so I was a little surprise that.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_02]: He said one rule about being a man he could just yeah if I know one general about it yeah if I'm generous about it he's saying in he could have said it more clearly like instead of a boy.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_02]: One rule about being a man a child instead of being a child yeah you could have used gender neutral language.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah there's a quote that ran has in the books I don't think he said it in the show that I really like which is death is a letter than a feather duty heavier than a mountain.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And that is the way he always says that to interest like your your duty is heavy and you have to bear it.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_08]: Right and we all have things that we have to deal with in process and carry in our lives and some things we can't.

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_08]: Something we just have to carry right there's other things we can put down or pick up but anyway that's not good to you fill us out of here.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_08]: Right but I did like what he said and and he could have been and it was just a curious decision on the writers to be gender specific about it so.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's land he's he's yeah yeah and it's short I think character kind of makes sense for.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And in Jordan writing in the context and you you're going to carry some of that that is going to carry through no matter what he's also talking to a man you know I mean like yeah sure it's all right if you want to be a man he is he is a man you know I don't think it's.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't think it's problematic as we're we're saying because he's not no no no I don't think it's problematic I think it's more just an interesting.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, anyway Matt is knocked out at the 4 gate and wakes up in foam to the landfill welcoming committee.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_08]: So this is where I got like a little head scratchy it was like wait yeah when in time and jetpacking and where are these two cities in relationship to each other and if the sand chin or there and they're so close.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_08]: They're not that slow for me they're they're on the opposite side of the continent but see that's what I thought but then but then we do in a blink of an eye Matt's there he's been knocked out that you know anyway.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not gonna cause a lot of the air she we've seen her transport ran to to fall before.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, right like we saw her show him a going that's true I thought it was in in a going dreams though.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_02]: It's it's both he can transport him through dreams yes.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, all right all right that's a thing you're just gonna have to accept like the jetpacking is canon in there okay and you haven't even seen the extent of what jetpacking can do yet.

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_08]: So you're gonna have to get used to it I'm just gonna tell you that now this fine I didn't have a problem quote problem with it it was just like huh what yeah I was just a little confused I would just or I think the better word is disoriented.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_02]: They can teleport in this world just accept it now and it will be easier later but perfect I certainly people can teleport fine I'm good with that.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_08]: I need to point out that those big stone circles with the Yin Yang symbols on them.

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_08]: I've pointed these out before it was in the very first episode when they were having the dark friends social yep and then with Ishamel here what city are we in now sorry.

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah in foam and we've seen them in the background of several scenes in while he's been informed they're very clearly on display a couple times in the ancient symbol of Isadai okay that's what's it is I'm putting some.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_08]: Because one of them was it broke it when he let land for your go I'm pretty sure that's what was up on the ceiling and then when they had the dark friends social with the little girl was out in front of the house.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_02]: There was one that had fallen or something but there's also one in the floor of the white tower.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_02]: In the audience chamber okay from season one so there this is a symbol that's around it's not just for the first take a sure sure it's it's a symbol that's around but then what are these specific ones yeah.

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_08]: I could have something to do with it for sure yeah so I'm putting I was going to put some internet points on that you know maybe there's your wiser has been accepted.

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_08]: Steward inside of these things yep your wager has been accepted thank you.

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_08]: By the way who in the name of light are you I loved that.

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_08]: I was like oh no I'm kind of the opposite of light my dear.

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you know I am I've been noticing this season they've cut down on the real world cursing and they've interesting more into the book language which was one of my complaints about season one so I'm glad that they've done that.

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know we've gotten flag about complaining about cursing in foundation because.

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Right you know but yeah I really did take me out in the wheel of time and I'll tell you exactly why is that the wheel of time books have in universe curse word.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Just use them it's part of the immersion.

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway okay not a lot of the scene let's move on to a lane and I need discussing next steps well walking through the city.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_02]: A lane takes charge of the situation to nine heaves horror and suggest they find loyal.

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Meanwhile a queen is brought to be tested with the other demonic.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_08]: Is this where the that's so look the look yeah okay I was in sure if it was this one later when actually me loyal but at least you had a funny little meme.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_08]: That she put out on Twitter with a 90 you've gone.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah it's good.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Well she on nine neaves face was full funny the actor did a really great job I think what's her name.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I think Zoe Robbins did an amazing job with a scene really looked horrified by being given orders by.

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_08]: By a lane because they really know each other yet in this right there's still feeling each other out exactly.

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_08]: They've gone through some stuff but everything has been about the stuff and not as a queen and Elaine had long chats in their novice rooms and sharing personal backstory and details.

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_08]: Nine even and Elaine have really been thrown together in circumstances.

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_02]: They're still in their pre wonder girls era right.

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep yep.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I did really like that they did a transition of Matt looking out the window into them being in the city that looks really good.

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes it's right that's right I usually pick up all those details and I well I'm here for you this time.

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Perfect you got you got me covered because they have another great transition later so.

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah dude while in the transitions here so one other thing I wanted to say about the scene was the we had some.

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_08]: Good little bit of world building expositiony thing here where oh now who said it I forget I can't remember who said it but one of them.

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_08]: Said you think that these people here would fight back they it's like they've been with this San Jan for years and I was like oh that's a very good clue.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_08]: That echoes back to what we know about the the San Jan is if you swear the loyalty low loyalty oath and I think you said this before was that they just kind of leave you to your business right unless you're part of the power structure.

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_08]: Unless you're part of you know the there military forces or police forces or political structures if you're just you know quote unquote the small folk.

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_08]: You're fine they just leave you do to do your thing and as long as you're very Roman Empire in that yeah and so how I'm not going to think of the Roman Empire do it anyway.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_08]: Now more because of the stupid.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_08]: This stupid mean.

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_08]: But yeah I think I just liked it it was just like oh that's the kind of stuff where they just drop little bits and pieces like that so it's just like yeah again great little connective tissue that.

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_08]: And it makes the world feel a little bit more whole and three dimensional.

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah I mean I've said this the shonchen largely governed well other than the fact that there are people who have slaves and that's awful right they have slaves both channeling and non-channeling and that's awful and it's horrible to be slave under them.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_02]: The normal people I guess they leave alone and they actually like are very good at like resource management and making sure people have food and and this and that like they are.

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Good at the bureaucratic parts of governing they're just awful people.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_08]: So this and I think this is a good mark of having new wants and complex writing the world is a complex and nuanced place you can have.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_08]: Right a political in you know rulers and institutions where certain things are good and certain things are bad right and and it's very hard to accomplish all of those things simultaneously maybe unless you live in one of the you know skin and avian Norwegian style countries where they seem but even they have problems right so.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_08]: This idea that political structures and how you govern large geographic areas and populations is not easy and I like that there's nuance and complexity rather than just like oh they're bad or oh they're good and and making it very simplistic so yeah I appreciate it.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And you have the question raised with a green and red later can you form an alliance with someone who's doing something file that you completely disagree with.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_02]: To serve some kind of greater good let's fight the shadow right can you do that because red wants to do that but she's on the side of the vile people.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And can can it go inside you know swallow their pride and and hold their nose.

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And form an alliance with them right.

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Because at some point the last battle is going to happen and you are going to have to probably fight alongside them if you want to win.

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Right right anyway food for thought for now.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's go back to Kyrian where very in receives an ogear map of the city and team Alana worries about very in the Andreans allegiances landran then enters house damage red.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_08]: So Alana is I think swiftly becoming one of my favorite show one of my show favorites.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay I really when we cut I mean it was we had them for just such a short bit in this episode but when I got there I was like oh cool lot you know I was like.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_08]: To see a lot and I really like I like to vibe in the dynamic that Alana's got going and I like the actor and just everything about that that's there so I was excited and then like oh I didn't get more of our really yeah she's out there very much.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah yeah I won't comment on my feelings on Alana because they are riddled with book knowledge.

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay fair enough.

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_08]: Do we know who the isadai with the purple cape and no hair who they are?

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes that is joya okay because we make a there's a they make a point of having.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean I think very in look at her or and what's the what's the other brown.

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Isadai who gives her the map I can't recall the name at the moment right because they both kind of look over and are sort of a bit nervous I mean I understand with an isadai.

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_08]: Political dynamics you're going to be cautious and then of course they know a secret well at least.

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean I think that's a secret about the dragon right.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_08]: And which is also interesting because Alana does does Alana know that verin knows do they know that each other know or or not so that's an interesting good question I'm not sure about.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah and that's good setup that I like that you know because that's going to you've got two different people.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_08]: Who have a same goal or motivation and yet they're coming at it from different directions in the not knowing.

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_08]: And the others position they don't have total information so that can make for some good dramatic tension yep.

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_02]: All right cool and and oh go you have some well yeah I was just going to say what you know.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_08]: You know lander in enters house doma dread dot dot dot question mark question mark question mark what the hell is she doing here and what but what are we going on it was a nice hook.

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just so rude upon walking in just like there is at the painting doesn't even acknowledge the owner exactly.

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Well.

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, land and marine meet for the first time since he sent her away since she sent him away.

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Lann asks if being cut off made her think of ending things and she said not once because nothing matters besides protecting and guiding ran.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Marine scolds land for telling swan but land tells her it's time to trust someone.

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_08]: So I really liked this detail.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_08]: This was the first clue that you know land has figured out that there's something else going on that she's not actually stilled because in 98% of all other cases.

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_08]: Yep, you know there was a specific results that ended up sure and my rain is very clear I never once thought about that never crossed my mind.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_08]: She's putting it on she's putting her strength on the fact that her mission to save the dragon you know or to find and drag in is keeping her.

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_08]: Moving forward but she can't see that land it takes land to see from the outside to go no wait something else is going on here.

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_08]: Interesting I really liked the detective land action going on.

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm loving that you're saying that because it actually made me think of a scene differently and I had read it as her kind of fiddling because because she had had that dagger scene with.

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_02]: With a low gain earlier in the season but now that I'm thinking about it she can't lie so she's clearly not fiddling and.

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I don't think you can she said not for one second so I don't think that I don't think that that can be a lie. I don't think we can I sit I out of that.

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_08]: Nope yep and it takes a land and that's what the structure as I'm understanding it from the show perspective watching the show perspective that is part of what a good word or I said I relationship.

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_08]: I think that should be about okay yes there's clear in battle type of stuff going on but you're so into your eyes to die stuff and having to deal with what's there.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_08]: You really do need that wingman or you know that other person who is outside and can see from the outside and give you that guidance and counsel so it's not just being your your blade but also.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_08]: You know somebody who can you know a friend in that sense of here's some advice or here's a perspective.

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Right, which back a little exactly think about this don't just react to this.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_08]: All right and and lastly on this I think it sets up this interesting question which is the you know marina's done so much to damage the trust relationship land is being steadfast in in some ways.

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_08]: But again it sets up this question of can you come back can you pardon my friend fuck up relationships so bad that.

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_08]: That can you come back from it can you repair those things can can there be some resolution or some healing or something like that and I think it it sets up again more dramatic tension for for that kind of questioning.

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Right yeah well I'm excited to see what they're what they do from here now that they're back together the gang the bands back together.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Swan then questions ran and becomes concerned by his lack of progress she tells him tower law requires her to catch him and she intends to do that this time she's shield ran and limits his gender.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_08]: You're not a spoke boy.

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_02]: You're the water that turns the wheel itself.

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_08]: He's he's doing his like mopey kid thing I don't want to have to be the savior and then she's like dude you're not the savior you're the energy that drives the the the system right right so I think that's the most interesting thing about the wheel time is that it it really does.

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Mess with this chosen one trope where first of all it's a cycle like this has happened before anybody happen again which we have to talk about when we get to eat some hell by anyway.

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm and second I think it it really.

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_02]: He's not necessarily the savior of the world he could do a lot of things with this and it's not necessarily always a good thing right.

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And so she drives the pattern he's not he's not he's not he's basically saying I don't want to be used by the pattern she's like you are the pattern buddy.

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_02]: You are moving it right now by being here right.

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_08]: She.

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_08]: She really messes them up to right you're not our general and she yeah she really disabuses of of of this thing.

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_08]: Obviously with her shielding him right just very easily like with a flick of her wrist.

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, but something that I thought was really interesting as well was tower law wants to use the dragon not unlike the way the sanction use the demonic.

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_08]: The demonic put a physical collar on you, you know you right the I said I might put a weave on you.

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_08]: But it's the same thing we're going to use you as a tool as a weapon and you don't have agency and you're not a person so going back to moral complexities.

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, the I said I aren't necessarily the quote unquote good guys.

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_08]: Right, you know that's a pretty horrible law that well we're when we find the dragon we're going to lock them up and then use them.

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_02]: You know right in the last battle well the so the white tower was founded after the last last battle after the war of power.

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And so this was in response to the the breaking of the world by you know men going mad from the power right so you got to remember there they're thinking to themselves we're going to limit the amount of time he can channel so he doesn't go mad.

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm. We're going to train him well he's caged and then we will unleash him as a weapon for the time he needs to be here and then they probably gentle him and kill him right maybe not kill him they just let him you know be gentle.

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, that's no different than the than a demonic in some way.

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Right, I completely agree with you it's very wrong. You're just telling you how you can kind of see where it came from right is is this is an extra this is the new right we have to cage the new.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_02]: We're not going to let the nuclear the sentient nuclear bomb run around the world.

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_08]: In yeah, we're trying to control the circumstances here. We're we're trying to manage variables and we're trying to minimize the downside and maximize the upside so yeah it's all very logical decision you could see the committee meeting where they actually decide this right tower law.

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_08]: Right, it's all very clear and for me as a show only.

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_08]: It was a shocker. I was like dang that's cold right then that's that's a that's a very serious thing to say yeah we're going to lock you up and then use you as the tip of our spear right right.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_08]: I love also swan just like so exasperated it's been six months and she's taught you nothing this is pathetic this is a waste of time and resources and efforts she's pissed swan is pissed.

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I think she's right, but also yeah a woman can't teach a man in this world. I don't use the bad advice versus like the you can't even see the weaves how are you going to teach them.

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_08]: And the fact that she couldn't find him for you know she had to set a trap she had to put out bait essentially to get ran to show up somewhere so.

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean kind of because she didn't know he I think she knew people's encounter in the whole time.

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh really okay. Yeah, because there's suggestion like I think I think landfier says it's last episode or something like that. Do you think it was an accident you ended up in Kyrie and

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh no, I know that the trap was the bait was there. Right. Did she did she know that he was there that's the I think so because he was there while he was there long enough to get a promotion to logins guy you know to view

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, or sank them if she had known that he was there she would have gotten there sooner, but anyway it's a debatable right in if you haven't. Yeah, although I will point out a plot hole I noticed which is how does ran just get in and out of this position and just not show up for work some days.

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_02]: You know they don't take away his badge like buddy, you know, you haven't been showing up to work. Right.

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_02]: A Gwain watches the other demonic perform a wind gust weave to test their power when it's her turn a Gwain makes a gust so big it knocks everyone back and is heard far off in the city.

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_08]: Renna is pleased. I really like the way that they're building Renna who is has this very subtle Stockholm syndrome style thing where she's clearly being evil from our point of view. She's just doing what she's thinks that is what she's supposed to be doing her culture and character.

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_08]: But I love her subtlety and I love the fact that she's not a big shouting. Yep, bad person but she sees herself as a dog trainer. Yeah, exactly. That's what it is.

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_08]: But she's also they're making their writing her character as a very sort of even killed and not not overtly sadistic. It's quietly sadistic if that makes a distinction right some bad guys can be written over the top.

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_08]: And in this case they're writing her with a real nice subtlety and so I really like what they're doing with her development.

[00:49:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And a motivation that makes sense right we need to all be prepared to fight the last battle. We know that you guys are dangerous now, you know there's I don't think that she's right since the the I said I kind of keep themselves under control with the O's.

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_02]: But she's saying you know, you can't just be running around the world channeling so we're going to keep you under control. You know they treat them like nukes too just like just like the I said I are treating ran like a nuke.

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly and and you know she has clear motivations.

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_08]: We all disagree with them, but they are there and they make sense. Yeah exactly. Yep. It was interesting that this we didn't need a going to do anything specific other than be it kind of it. I guess that's the way I'm talking about yeah yeah I don't know exactly you do this I am doing this.

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah I don't recall exactly what they did with that in the book, how they how they had that go but I know that I think in the books the the soul line basically just like come hands the weave through

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_02]: The Demonne but it still comes out of the Demonne. Right the Demonne is the plug into the electricity wall and and the soul DOM is flipping the switch sort of speed. Yeah yeah, but I I don't I don't think they did it like this where it's more like you know that the

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_08]: The one power is going into the Demonne is you know risk thing the leash. Yeah, that's really for the show which is fine. That's fine. Yeah, it helps to have a physical manifestation of that in the world that we can observe. Yeah so

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_08]: I love to the look that Madeline Madden the actor who plays a going gives Rena after this she's both amazed by her power and actually touching the source

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah to that degree and then amazed at the effect that it had in world but then also in that moment I think that this is the moment where she's like I'm going to end up in kill you.

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_08]: When when this when I get free this is like this is the moment she does the Arya decision right Arya with her lists of names of all people that she can kill from from game of thrones. Yeah, this is the moment where

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_02]: A going makes that decision like your ass is mine at the moment I get out of this collar. Yeah, so the the other thing with this is do you think that she could have kept channeling further than she was because it seemed to me like Rena said I've had enough I'm going to let this all out now.

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Interesting possibly I didn't I didn't catch that but I like the idea.

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it seemed like a queen was still like the glow is increasing she might have kept going but right now that's enough for me dog.

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_08]: That's a split this one go yeah yeah yeah Rena looks like she's getting pretty high here. She's like whoa this is you know if she's a surfer on a wave she's that you know she's like wait a minute. This wave is really I'm not sure I'm prepared for this.

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I can I can see and and a grain is probably you know the what I'm kind of interpreting is that she you know it's it's like she's feeling her power and it feels good right it's and it's a kind of a newness so yeah it's it's a very cool little scene.

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Part of the thing that this arc does for a queen in the books is it levels her up she can she can sense how powerful she is she's able to use more practical beaves. She was not allowed to do in the tower and it really is as much as it's traumatic for her it's also a growth moment for her hugely and that's also good because we want as we can as I keep saying we want growth right and even though this is terrible.

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_02]: It is it's like her apprenticeship right it's not in the white tower right and I think I think later a character asks her like how did you become so powerful so fast.

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_08]: She's like you don't you don't want to do what I did no spoilers the fact that she gets out.

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_08]: This it's clear that she's gonna get we know nothing she's gonna get out exactly that's a saying you can't you get call that it's spoiler. We just know yeah.

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_02]: It's built into the show I'm not going to tell you how she gets out. No exactly that's the interesting bit right right all right.

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Loyal meets Elaine and I need and tells them a queen is being held in the kennels that and that only sold on can go in and out.

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I need promises to get loyal out to Elaine says they have what they need did you like the.

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_02]: The the the what am I trying to say the dialogue where the loyal is trying to do the big big.

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_02]: The big fancy list of of.

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_02]: He's a build titles he's got to do he's got to do his builder thing right and and I need goes don't encourage her.

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_08]: That was a great line the whole little scene was it was very fun a very character building moments Elaine receiving him and feeling her power in that was great and I need going this is gross.

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_08]: And loyal being loyal like he's fully being an ogre and saying right my allegiance is my protocols my everything that I have been trained and it was within my.

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_08]: Social and in psychological makeup I have to kneel I have to address this ruler this way right it was so genuine and honest and I need was like this is gross.

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah that was super good but did you think by the end of the scene okay one of them is going to call or the other.

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_08]: I wasn't sure and I saw the twist caught me I was like I did have that thought and I thought oh that's gross.

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, they do the fake they do the same thing out in the book I think okay it's a good work yeah it worked I didn't I wasn't hunting for I mean I suppose if I thought it through.

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_08]: I you could puzzle it out but at the same time they give it just they just touch it just enough to give you the thought and go oh I hope they don't do that.

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah I wasn't sure if they were actually going to do it in the show but they they did the same fake out and I liked it I like the way that they pulled it off the whole like hey how you doing.

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah it was good.

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_02]: All right Matt wakes up to Ishmael with Ling in his room ishmael starts to lecture about the world being depressing and Matt asks if this is a sex thing or a murder thing ishmael bruise a T that he says will allow Matt to see glimpses of his past lives.

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Matt questions it but ishmael is confident that he will drink it.

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_08]: Very funny line by Matt about the sex or murder thing either way can you please move on when it.

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_08]: I was thinking about this Matt and this actor and you know we've been been thinking and talking about you know what this actor brings differently to this role and I can't remember if we talked about this before but.

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_08]: What I'm starting to get is that this Matt is less puckish and he's a little bit more of a shambles you know a little bit more shambolic a little bit more life he's lived a rough life and he doesn't have the same pluck that the other and I'm not I'm not I'm just comparing here I'm just kind of contrasting not not giving value judgment.

[00:56:40] [SPEAKER_08]: But this Matt is feeling the he feels more rough and rough edge than the other Matt who while having the same upbringing had a pluckish upbeat attitude and a sort of twinkle in his eye and yeah you know things are messed up and what but I'm still have this natural verb.

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_08]: Where this Matt is a little bit more downtrodden overall and it's fine I think it's working for me.

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I hope that he gets a little bit of life back in him but this was it's starting to show signs in this.

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, yeah, he doesn't have that same verb so yeah.

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I think this is my favorite scene of the episode okay not not the actual vision scene but this scene.

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes this scene because I get an insight into Ishamel that I haven't before I thought the comedy note hit well right is a section murder thing.

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_08]: So that all worked right the the dynamic that's getting set up for Matt.

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_08]: Which I'll come back to in just a second but that this idea that Ishamel is on a mission and it's not necessarily the Dark one's mission and it's not an issue mission it's the issue mission I like it.

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, it is the Dark one's mission to break the wheel to just in suffering.

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Docs what well not to end suffering 10 did all.

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay to end the existence.

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Interesting okay and we haven't I right there I've only recently learned that the Dark one is not Ishamel right so I still know.

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Right well he says Ishamel says in a previous episode I'm the only one who gets the Dark one you know I'm the only one who has who shares his motivations and I'm saying what you're about.

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's that's why I'm telling you I think this is you know shown in the show that's the Dark one's true goal not just to you know make everyone is the slag of the.

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_02]: To be an honor of yeah what you've done with it all it's not he's not Sarah on he's not more off this is a new thing which is somebody who sees the cycle at once to end it.

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_08]: Interesting okay so fair enough so so maybe that was off but then I can see the alignment then of Ishamel with the the Dark ones goals and I'd like this whole thing of you know I would wake up and I would.

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Think about all the pain in the suffering in this world and there's only one way out of this trap and that's to end it all.

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_08]: And so it's not that and I know that he said all the world is depressing that it's a funny line but for me it's not that he's depressed about the world he's hopeful for the world.

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_08]: In as much as he's going to end the world there's hope and that's.

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_08]: And and that's a good you know that's a Thanos he and bad guy right I have a principle I have a point of view I have a reason for what I'm doing.

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_08]: And I can kind and you can kind of see that logic you can understand how he arrives at his answer I don't agree with the answer but you know I get right and I that is so the writing in the scene and the motive and the insight into the motivations I think we're are really good.

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_08]: This is the show hitting it's best I have there are there are things in the show for me that are uneven there some places where it is not great and then there's other scene you know stuff in this show that it's like wow this is really cool.

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_08]: And this is one of the scenes for me that that really made me feel something.

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_02]: All right well yeah yeah I think Thanos he in is a good way to describe him I think Alicia assigned a word to him and to somebody in foundation that I won't spoil which was actually sorry somebody in Star Wars that I won't spoil which is nihilistic you know she's a nihilist and he really is it's just kind of done with living but he can't be done with living because he knows even if he dies he's going to come back as a different person.

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And the cycle will repeat and he just would like he would just like to go to sleep and not pick up and.

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_02]: You kind of get the guy especially because this guy wants to be one who has glimpsed his past lives and is struggling to reconcile the fact that he has to keep doing this with his with his consciousness and I think I think he sees Matt as a tool.

[01:01:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I think he wins if he if he makes the heavens fields five all come to his point of view right like let's figure out how to end this.

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_06]: Right yep.

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_08]: So his goal isn't to kill them but he's to turn them to his point of view to which is on the merit again more good construct more interesting story and I think.

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_08]: Putting the tea in front of Matt is a really great strategy because.

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_08]: I think with Matt particularly he's as he as we learn later in the scene you know what what he's gone through and what he's stuck with.

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_08]: There's this idea that our.

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_08]: Our brains are designed to protect us both physically and socially in the world like the just the mechanisms of our neurons right got a void disabled to tiger and not get kicked out of the tribe.

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_08]: I think those are two very deep seated in paratives and.

[01:02:11] [SPEAKER_08]: Our brain is good at creating and seeing you know seeing the patterns in the world. Oh, okay. I know that the sabre to tiger likes to hunt here and this is and it jumps out this particular way.

[01:02:21] [SPEAKER_08]: I know how to avoid it because I can predict the future based on the past.

[01:02:25] [SPEAKER_08]: And so Matt being trapped in this wheel and having a pretty horrible life.

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_08]: A terrible set of circumstances that he's he's carrying a burden that he's carrying what what human heart wouldn't jump at the chance to figure out.

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_08]: What my pattern is so that I can try to escape the pattern human heart and conflict with itself maybe.

[01:02:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And I will add they. They really changed Matt's home life in the show.

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_02]: We had a loving mother and father sisters that he loved. Everybody was jelly in his home life at interesting in the books interesting in the show they made him come from this abusive household and I guess this is why they wanted to be able to play this role here, but yeah I don't know if I love it because I we stand we stand the coffin family.

[01:03:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, I could see where that would be a big departure for books folks for show only person it's working for me. I understand it it's relatable.

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_08]: It gives me clear motivation and yeah if that is the that's a night and day change between the book and the show so I can get it where people are like.

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm not having all kinds of different reactions so yeah that that was jarring for me.

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, totally understandable. I wonder what happens because it shimels very clear what happens if you drink more than one cup of this tea because he's like only one.

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know maybe you die.

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's terrible. Maybe you stay crazy forever.

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So obviously and finds her fellow Iel being in she ad and asks to be taken to joya.

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_02]: They show her joy is grave then Abienda offers herself to be beaten mercilessly.

[01:04:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Perrin tries to interfere but they convince him to stay out of it.

[01:04:20] Yep.

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_08]: Yep, it was a scene.

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't want to talk too much about it.

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_08]: It just yeah it was a wolf walking in the desert and Perrin walking around without covering himself up and yeah there's just a bunch of things that sort of took out of that very similar to that's fine.

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_08]: Wetlander.

[01:04:47] [SPEAKER_02]: What I love wetlander.

[01:04:49] [SPEAKER_08]: All right.

[01:04:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Because they come from a place where water is like a precious commodity so they call them wetlanders is in like your week it's like a it's like a pejorative.

[01:04:58] [SPEAKER_06]: It's not.

[01:04:59] [SPEAKER_02]: You haven't had to work for anything you haven't had to seek anything you have water just spoon fed to you.

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, it's it's not like it's not descriptive it's I think Jordan's naming style.

[01:05:10] [SPEAKER_08]: I think I kind of.

[01:05:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's they're very on the nose and they're very obtuse they're not I like all of them except dark friend I don't like right that's the only one that really jars me but everything and I got used to it eventually.

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_02]: But everything else I really like I do like wetlander there's a word.

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_08]: It's even a gleaming in this season.

[01:05:33] [SPEAKER_02]: The name for the name for dark friend in the IELCulture is Shadowrunner which I think is way better.

[01:05:39] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, for sure.

[01:05:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, anyway yeah so you you're your first taste of tow here.

[01:05:46] [SPEAKER_08]: So this is when I googled obvious and this I was trying to understand so I yield but it's to rod I eat.

[01:05:56] [SPEAKER_08]: Tardot.

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_08]: Tardot thank you to rod what am I.

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_08]: But that's the full name of their people.

[01:06:04] [SPEAKER_02]: No that's her tribe within the IEL.

[01:06:06] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh interesting.

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_08]: There's so I yield these people and this the tribe within it.

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, yeah I've got it.

[01:06:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep, and then and so that's her main tribe and then there's also you know there's also the maintenance of the spear which is her sort of adopted tribe of warriors.

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_08]: Right, okay.

[01:06:24] [SPEAKER_08]: Life is a dream that we all must wake before we dream again.

[01:06:29] [SPEAKER_08]: It was also very doony was a strong doom.

[01:06:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Well that's direct line from the books life is a dream we almost wake from before we dream again.

[01:06:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I though I always found that very moving.

[01:06:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you just don't like Jordan's writing.

[01:06:45] [SPEAKER_08]: It's a I never write this writing.

[01:06:47] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a world where this is a world where reincarnation is a known fact.

[01:06:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, you must wake from the dream of life so that you can dream again.

[01:06:57] [SPEAKER_02]: You know I think that that's beautiful you know you you know you're saying they'll be back one day and it was their time to wake.

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, maybe it's out of context for me and I was I was limited.

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Out of context they were out of funeral.

[01:07:13] [SPEAKER_08]: I was in my own context of.

[01:07:17] [SPEAKER_08]: Doon.

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_08]: Because that's what visually I'm seeing.

[01:07:21] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, and so I don't have the context of Jordan's writing.

[01:07:25] [SPEAKER_08]: So, may I call for? I'll accept my limitations.

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you once you get further into them they are like probably the most fascinating part of the Wheel of Time.

[01:07:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, because they have such an interesting backstory and history and their role in the world is really fascinating.

[01:07:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm looking forward to you learning more about them and I hope you enjoy it.

[01:07:45] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, cool.

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_08]: I do hope that I do as well and we've got some ground to cover between here and there.

[01:07:54] [SPEAKER_08]: In the show, in the show.

[01:07:56] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm writing the books.

[01:07:58] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, so time for tea.

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Matt has a cup of Ishmael's tea.

[01:08:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Once the trip starts, Matt sees his mother telling him he's just like his dad.

[01:08:06] [SPEAKER_02]: He sees himself hanged himself drowning someone and himself breaking someone's neck.

[01:08:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Finally, he turns into his mother and another Matt tells him he's just like him.

[01:08:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Matt turns back into himself and the two mats scream at each other.

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_08]: So if this is the truth of his soul, it's really tough.

[01:08:31] [SPEAKER_08]: That's a tough beat that he's in here.

[01:08:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean you have to decide if you trust Ishmael too.

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_08]: That's a good point. That's a good point.

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_08]: There has to be a kernel of truth in this though because otherwise the lie won't take.

[01:08:50] [SPEAKER_02]: They showed things in the scene that I was really surprised they showed.

[01:08:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Really? Yes.

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_08]: Hinting it at stuff.

[01:08:57] [SPEAKER_02]: At things you may learn later.

[01:08:59] [SPEAKER_08]: We'll leave.

[01:09:02] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, they showed things were like, oh, oh.

[01:09:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Also, I was really surprised that they released this scene as a promo before the episode came out.

[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's such a weird scene to publish without context.

[01:09:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, it's pretty and it's not a.

[01:09:17] [SPEAKER_08]: Shall we say life affirming?

[01:09:19] [SPEAKER_08]: No.

[01:09:20] [SPEAKER_08]: No.

[01:09:21] [SPEAKER_08]: It's pretty rough all around.

[01:09:24] [SPEAKER_08]: And then what's the mirror of his mother and him?

[01:09:29] [SPEAKER_08]: I wasn't sure I fully interpreted what was what they were saying.

[01:09:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[01:09:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was very confused by this scene.

[01:09:38] [SPEAKER_08]: I would love to hear some fan theories.

[01:09:40] [SPEAKER_08]: So if anybody's got anything right in.

[01:09:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[01:09:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I think he fears being just like his dad that was very clear.

[01:09:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And which again, able coffin in the book, great man.

[01:09:51] [SPEAKER_02]: But here, not so much abusive of all.

[01:09:54] [SPEAKER_08]: I thought it was a big departure.

[01:09:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[01:09:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, you see him hanging, you see him drowning someone.

[01:10:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I couldn't tell who the drowning someone.

[01:10:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought it might have been Ishmael based on the outfit.

[01:10:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And the breaking someone's neck.

[01:10:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I couldn't recognize that person either.

[01:10:11] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, no.

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_08]: It didn't.

[01:10:13] [SPEAKER_08]: It seemed like the person who he broke the neck of might have been a female character.

[01:10:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Look, it looks female.

[01:10:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it looks female.

[01:10:24] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[01:10:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, not a lot to say about the scene.

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I did enjoy the humor of him screaming at himself and laughing at himself.

[01:10:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was, that was a well done shot.

[01:10:33] [SPEAKER_08]: It struck.

[01:10:34] [SPEAKER_08]: They hit a good reality note here.

[01:10:37] [SPEAKER_08]: I can say, I can speak from experience.

[01:10:39] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.

[01:10:40] [SPEAKER_08]: I can not all trips are fun.

[01:10:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[01:10:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Fair.

[01:10:44] [SPEAKER_08]: I haven't had about one of that negative of consequence.

[01:10:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Have you had the the resulting scene happen to you?

[01:10:54] [SPEAKER_08]: No, no.

[01:10:55] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.

[01:10:55] [SPEAKER_08]: Never never went too far down the.

[01:10:58] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.

[01:10:58] [SPEAKER_08]: It did visually they portrayed things pretty nicely.

[01:11:01] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[01:11:02] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[01:11:02] [SPEAKER_08]: That's one thing that's really hard to do is to get the interior,

[01:11:07] [SPEAKER_08]: psychological experience of being in an altered state onto screen.

[01:11:12] [SPEAKER_08]: It's really hard.

[01:11:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[01:11:15] [SPEAKER_08]: And I felt like that was a pretty that that rang pretty true for a.

[01:11:21] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.

[01:11:22] [SPEAKER_08]: Not the content, but the visual representation of it.

[01:11:26] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[01:11:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Marine tries to convince Juan to free-rand.

[01:11:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Swan says she can't train him and control him as he's stilled.

[01:11:33] [SPEAKER_02]: She says the next day they'll announce him as dragon.

[01:11:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And 14 sisters will buy be by their side to show he's under their control.

[01:11:43] [SPEAKER_08]: So I didn't quite understand at the beginning of this that she had him.

[01:11:50] [SPEAKER_08]: She has him shielded and she's carrying on this conversation in very intense conversation with

[01:11:56] [SPEAKER_08]: Marine and is rand so inexperienced that she can just sort of devote a very small corner of her brain to keep it in

[01:12:05] [SPEAKER_08]: the outside of the world.

[01:12:06] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[01:12:06] [SPEAKER_08]: Swan is not a joke.

[01:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And in the books they make very clear that it's really hard to shield someone who's already

[01:12:15] [SPEAKER_02]: channeling.

[01:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: It's almost impossible.

[01:12:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And here, Swan does it easily.

[01:12:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[01:12:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So he's just really inexperienced.

[01:12:23] [SPEAKER_08]: And he's looking very pathetic there.

[01:12:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[01:12:25] [SPEAKER_08]: He's looking is a little bit.

[01:12:27] [SPEAKER_08]: So a lot of fire here between Swan and Marine.

[01:12:31] [SPEAKER_08]: A lot of hurt.

[01:12:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, Swan has a point.

[01:12:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that her approach is very bad but she definitely has a point in taking a new approach and taking the

[01:12:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Reigns away from Marine.

[01:12:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:12:43] [SPEAKER_02]: The Marines away.

[01:12:45] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[01:12:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:12:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Not a lot to say about the scene more, you know, this one plan coming to fruition.

[01:12:55] [SPEAKER_08]: We get an answer with the sisters like how many why she came with.

[01:12:58] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[01:12:59] [SPEAKER_08]: The sisters and then some more drop here about the, you know, declaring the dragon and fulfilling

[01:13:07] [SPEAKER_08]: the prophecy, you know, and he shall be known by blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[01:13:13] [SPEAKER_08]: So right.

[01:13:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Standard stuff for a fantasy.

[01:13:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Speaking of speaking of prophecy, Rand learns that he's been shielded and

[01:13:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Marine tells him it's only temporary.

[01:13:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Rand says he was trying to go to fall to save a grain and ask why fall.

[01:13:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Marine says that's where the dragon is supposed to proclaim himself.

[01:13:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Rand thinks the forsaken want him to be famous before they kill him and says they probably

[01:13:38] [SPEAKER_02]: don't want him imprisoned by the Omrelancy.

[01:13:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Nice.

[01:13:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Nice hint that they're going to free him with landfares help.

[01:13:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, and this is new for the show.

[01:13:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, fallm is definitely a place and is the location of the end of book two.

[01:13:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And so they are, they are very set up to do basically the finale of book two as the

[01:13:58] [SPEAKER_02]: last episode.

[01:13:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm excited because it's a great ending.

[01:14:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think Rand reads the motivation over the first taken wrong.

[01:14:08] [SPEAKER_02]: They don't want to kill him.

[01:14:09] [SPEAKER_08]: No, they wouldn't use him.

[01:14:10] [SPEAKER_08]: They wouldn't do like you said, it's emails.

[01:14:14] [SPEAKER_08]: Goal here is to turn them all right.

[01:14:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Wind them on the merits.

[01:14:17] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, exactly.

[01:14:19] [SPEAKER_08]: And that's a, that is interesting.

[01:14:22] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[01:14:22] [SPEAKER_08]: That is straight up interesting.

[01:14:23] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[01:14:24] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm going to convince you, I'm going to intellectually convince you that my point of view,

[01:14:29] [SPEAKER_08]: my argument is the only natural logical conclusion to ending suffering of the word.

[01:14:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So how does he do that?

[01:14:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Keep traumatizing him.

[01:14:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Basically that's that's as cool as I'm going to traumatize you in this omission.

[01:14:41] [SPEAKER_08]: That's right.

[01:14:41] [SPEAKER_08]: That's right.

[01:14:43] [SPEAKER_08]: When they open the scene, I apologize.

[01:14:46] Who's the,

[01:14:47] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, I apologize.

[01:14:48] [SPEAKER_08]: The name of the second in command of the,

[01:14:51] [SPEAKER_08]: I, Leanna.

[01:14:53] [SPEAKER_08]: They, right, to keep her.

[01:14:54] [SPEAKER_08]: That's what I was looking for.

[01:14:55] [SPEAKER_08]: Leanna to keep her.

[01:14:56] [SPEAKER_08]: So as they pull, they zoom out from Leanna's face and she's stress it.

[01:15:01] [SPEAKER_08]: She's got a little sheen of sweat and she's working hard to keep Lann shielded.

[01:15:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Where, where, where, where, where.

[01:15:09] [SPEAKER_08]: Lann does need to shield shield or you sell land.

[01:15:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, I'm sorry.

[01:15:14] [SPEAKER_08]: I call it as Rand.

[01:15:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Rand, Rand, Rand, Rand, Rand.

[01:15:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I'll all be the point.

[01:15:17] [SPEAKER_08]: We got the point.

[01:15:17] [SPEAKER_08]: Vowels.

[01:15:19] [SPEAKER_08]: Where she's keeping Rand shielded where swan was having a pretty big conversation with

[01:15:26] [SPEAKER_08]: Marie that took a lot of her attention.

[01:15:29] [SPEAKER_08]: And yet still had Rand locked down no, no problem at all.

[01:15:33] [SPEAKER_02]: It was a nice way to show.

[01:15:35] [SPEAKER_02]: It was a very, very powerful there.

[01:15:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:15:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was a pair to other.

[01:15:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I said, I.

[01:15:39] [SPEAKER_08]: And that was a, it demonstrated that to me.

[01:15:42] [SPEAKER_08]: The show showed me that.

[01:15:44] [SPEAKER_08]: So I, you know, appreciation for the in-world consistency there.

[01:15:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[01:15:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I thought this was a great scene.

[01:15:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I liked the exposition of foam.

[01:15:54] [SPEAKER_02]: They did add the prophecy, but they, yeah, but yeah, that'll be really cool.

[01:15:58] [SPEAKER_02]: That'll be really cool.

[01:15:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I hope that they have a nice cool conclusion to this season.

[01:16:03] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, we got one more to go, right?

[01:16:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So yep.

[01:16:06] [SPEAKER_02]: One more scene before we take a break.

[01:16:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Barthanas orders his mother to leave him alone with the Andran.

[01:16:11] [SPEAKER_02]: LeAndran tells Barthanas to remove Marie from the board.

[01:16:15] [SPEAKER_02]: He's initially hesitant, but he agrees to do it that day.

[01:16:18] [SPEAKER_02]: LeAndran tells him that if his mother suspects anything,

[01:16:21] [SPEAKER_02]: he'll have to take care of her too.

[01:16:23] [SPEAKER_02]: On there, he is through the wall.

[01:16:27] [SPEAKER_08]: So, uh, Dark friend's social, another revealed player?

[01:16:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know if he was there, but he certainly certainly is a dark friend.

[01:16:36] [SPEAKER_08]: He's a dark friend.

[01:16:39] [SPEAKER_08]: So, great little, you know, we were all, you know,

[01:16:41] [SPEAKER_08]: it was a great little hook.

[01:16:42] [SPEAKER_08]: Why is LeAndran there?

[01:16:44] [SPEAKER_08]: And we got a clear payoff there.

[01:16:47] [SPEAKER_08]: So, I like that they didn't keep it running too long.

[01:16:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, did you suspect Barthanas to be a dark friend before this?

[01:16:52] [SPEAKER_08]: No, but it's completely obvious now that he revealed it.

[01:16:56] [SPEAKER_08]: He was so nice and, you know, he was just such a fun, calming, you know, influence within the

[01:17:03] [SPEAKER_08]: Dama-Dread household.

[01:17:04] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I'm just, you know, I'm a, I'm a young man who's excited to get married.

[01:17:08] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh boy, I'm going to be king isn't that nifty.

[01:17:10] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[01:17:11] [SPEAKER_08]: And no, no, it turns out that the dude straight up evil.

[01:17:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Um, not, you know, but he's, again, he's got motivation.

[01:17:17] [SPEAKER_08]: He's got a good motivation, right?

[01:17:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[01:17:20] [SPEAKER_08]: And it's obvious in retrospect and so good job, you know, that you fooled me.

[01:17:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:17:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So, he is a character in the books, but well, there's, I should say there's a character in the book named

[01:17:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Barthanas who's a dark friend.

[01:17:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.

[01:17:33] [SPEAKER_02]: However, it's very different.

[01:17:35] [SPEAKER_02]: He's just a, a Lord that's unrelated to Marine in the books.

[01:17:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And he is probably the most powerful Lord after the king was, or the king instead of a queen in

[01:17:43] [SPEAKER_02]: the book.

[01:17:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[01:17:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, Rand meet him and goes to his party and he was, he was hiding the way gate.

[01:17:51] [SPEAKER_02]: They didn't, is part of his estate.

[01:17:53] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, okay.

[01:17:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And that, that's part of the, the book to adventures, but it's just very different

[01:17:58] [SPEAKER_02]: in the show.

[01:17:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I will credit Alicia and I with calling the way this was going to play out earlier in the

[01:18:04] [SPEAKER_02]: season.

[01:18:05] [SPEAKER_02]: We were like, all right.

[01:18:06] [SPEAKER_02]: He's probably still a dark friend.

[01:18:08] [SPEAKER_02]: He's moved up through the ranks quickly, why did he move up through the ranks quickly because

[01:18:13] [SPEAKER_02]: he sold a soul, right?

[01:18:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that, that we called that early and I know they give us too hard to call early.

[01:18:19] [SPEAKER_02]: The only question we had was is on bear in on it.

[01:18:22] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-huh.

[01:18:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And now we know she is not in on it.

[01:18:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[01:18:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Which is nice.

[01:18:26] [SPEAKER_08]: We got a counterpoint to her son.

[01:18:30] [SPEAKER_08]: And again, good.

[01:18:32] [SPEAKER_08]: Some good conflict there that's, uh, that, you know, we've got a mother and son, you know,

[01:18:42] [SPEAKER_08]: in conflict.

[01:18:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And he basically says he pleads with her like, I did this for us.

[01:18:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Let us keep it.

[01:18:49] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, exactly.

[01:18:51] [SPEAKER_08]: And that's great.

[01:18:52] [SPEAKER_08]: So yeah.

[01:18:52] [SPEAKER_08]: And this is where I was saying before I was feeling a little frustrated

[01:18:56] [SPEAKER_08]: is because I feel like we're, this should have had this been episode three or four.

[01:19:03] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, yeah, right?

[01:19:04] [SPEAKER_08]: Like we're really cooking with gas and wait a minute where it eats.

[01:19:08] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, we're not at 10 or 12 episodes here.

[01:19:10] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm getting juicy plot and the season's over.

[01:19:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So I will tell you that it kind of mirrors the structure of the books,

[01:19:18] [SPEAKER_02]: which is that we spend a lot of time on casual walks with the characters.

[01:19:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you are five chapters from the end and Robert Jordan is going to blow your

[01:19:27] [SPEAKER_02]: fucking mind.

[01:19:29] [SPEAKER_02]: That's, that's his goal is I'm going to slow walk you through this whole thing.

[01:19:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to lay a lot of track and then I'm going to make everything explode at the end.

[01:19:37] [SPEAKER_08]: Interesting.

[01:19:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.

[01:19:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And I love that.

[01:19:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that it's a really cool writing technique.

[01:19:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And he is amazing at writing a satisfying climax.

[01:19:46] [SPEAKER_08]: All right.

[01:19:47] [SPEAKER_08]: Good.

[01:19:47] [SPEAKER_08]: Hopefully the show can, I know the show has to make decisions about plot and character,

[01:19:52] [SPEAKER_08]: but hopefully they can mirror that way the right or structure the story lines.

[01:19:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I really hope episode eight is a bang around.

[01:20:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I will be.

[01:20:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we've set up.

[01:20:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they've earned a really big conclusion which is exciting.

[01:20:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's crossed.

[01:20:07] [SPEAKER_02]: There's that you have this powder keg in fall and right now.

[01:20:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:20:11] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just ready to light up in so many ways.

[01:20:14] [SPEAKER_02]: You've got a grain captured.

[01:20:15] [SPEAKER_02]: You've got Matt in his weird mood.

[01:20:17] [SPEAKER_02]: You've got Ryan about to go fight the forsaken.

[01:20:21] [SPEAKER_02]: You've got landfill and ishamel there.

[01:20:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that you have plenty going on in fall.

[01:20:26] [SPEAKER_02]: The where it's going to be really interesting.

[01:20:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Even patting fame.

[01:20:28] [SPEAKER_02]: We haven't talked about he's in fall.

[01:20:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Still.

[01:20:31] [SPEAKER_08]: What's going to happen?

[01:20:32] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[01:20:33] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[01:20:33] [SPEAKER_08]: Good point.

[01:20:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[01:20:36] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[01:20:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's take a quick break when we get back.

[01:20:39] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll continue the episode.

[01:21:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And we're back.

[01:21:01] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[01:21:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Ishamel cradles mats head and strokes his cheek.

[01:21:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Ishamel explains of the cycle of a

[01:21:11] [SPEAKER_02]: little bit.

[01:21:12] [SPEAKER_02]: What he wants to do is to close his eyes and one day it

[01:21:16] [SPEAKER_02]: closes eyes one day and never have to open them again.

[01:21:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Matt asks how.

[01:21:22] [SPEAKER_08]: So I think he wins him on the merits here.

[01:21:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:21:26] [SPEAKER_02]: At least for now.

[01:21:27] [SPEAKER_08]: Yep.

[01:21:28] [SPEAKER_02]: At least for now.

[01:21:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I think Matt's going to do his bidding for a little bit.

[01:21:31] [SPEAKER_08]: He, you know, Matt is in pain and he wants to really from the pain.

[01:21:35] [SPEAKER_08]: So it's a good that's a good point.

[01:21:36] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, can we trust Ishamel with the tea?

[01:21:41] [SPEAKER_08]: Was that truth or was that some kind of Hall of Mirrors type thing where there is truth,

[01:21:49] [SPEAKER_08]: but it's distorted.

[01:21:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Is it nice to die truth, right?

[01:21:53] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[01:21:54] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[01:21:54] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[01:21:55] [SPEAKER_08]: An absolute truth.

[01:21:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah.

[01:21:58] [SPEAKER_02]: It's stuff I laughed out loud when I saw him cradling Matt and Matt's just like

[01:22:06] [SPEAKER_08]: right.

[01:22:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, we know that Ishamel can be tender and intimate.

[01:22:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:22:12] [SPEAKER_08]: They've shown us that.

[01:22:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah.

[01:22:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Pretty funny over there.

[01:22:17] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah.

[01:22:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm excited to see what happens with Matt because this is pretty different from the books.

[01:22:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't like Ishamel.

[01:22:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I really get's to him this way in the books.

[01:22:25] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah.

[01:22:26] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll see where this goes from here.

[01:22:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's move on to Rand.

[01:22:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Entering the dream world to speak to a golf landfier.

[01:22:32] [SPEAKER_02]: He asks for landfier is help to escape, but she complains about

[01:22:36] [SPEAKER_02]: the marine's presence.

[01:22:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Rand says maybe marine will help him and she any won't need landfier.

[01:22:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And landfier smirks before terrorizing the four gate with weaves of fire and explosions.

[01:22:49] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, this may get me s added.

[01:22:52] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, it gives me get me some hate.

[01:22:54] [SPEAKER_08]: But I'm kind of glad that they got rid of the hat thing, the headpiece.

[01:22:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just fine with it with him without.

[01:23:01] [SPEAKER_08]: But I think it's better without personally.

[01:23:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[01:23:04] [SPEAKER_02]: That's me.

[01:23:05] [SPEAKER_02]: You like God's spirit better.

[01:23:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, she's I mean it's basically the same costume.

[01:23:09] [SPEAKER_08]: It's everything's the same for the headpiece.

[01:23:12] [SPEAKER_08]: So same boots.

[01:23:13] [SPEAKER_08]: I think they they they filmed it all in one shot.

[01:23:15] [SPEAKER_08]: They block film this so you know, you don't want to get in and out.

[01:23:18] [SPEAKER_08]: It's going to take you about an hour to get in and out of that costume.

[01:23:22] [SPEAKER_08]: A lot of buckles and straps.

[01:23:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:23:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:23:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I really like the look.

[01:23:27] [SPEAKER_02]: People are thirsting over landfier now.

[01:23:29] [SPEAKER_08]: Of course.

[01:23:30] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[01:23:31] [SPEAKER_08]: That's a tall hot glass of water.

[01:23:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And I and I love her just going casually through the city, right?

[01:23:39] [SPEAKER_02]: He casually walking through the city just blowing shit up.

[01:23:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Just the whole four gates going to burn down now probably.

[01:23:47] Right.

[01:23:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, well, I guess not because the fire gets put out later.

[01:23:51] [SPEAKER_08]: But so criticism, minor criticism here on on my point.

[01:23:55] [SPEAKER_08]: I get it.

[01:23:56] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, I get the device and I get her.

[01:23:58] [SPEAKER_08]: I like her.

[01:24:00] [SPEAKER_08]: The actor doing a great job.

[01:24:01] [SPEAKER_08]: But this.

[01:24:04] [SPEAKER_08]: This scene production wise it was fine, but it was also just like, okay,

[01:24:09] [SPEAKER_08]: they just had a bunch of those explosion pots and air cannons and stuff like that.

[01:24:13] [SPEAKER_08]: It didn't didn't wow me from a production standpoint.

[01:24:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So I liked it.

[01:24:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought I look good.

[01:24:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought I I thought it spoke to a very powerful gentleman.

[01:24:21] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm not yeah, not not not criticizing what they do with the setup of landfier

[01:24:27] [SPEAKER_08]: And that she can just walk through and flick and you know, glance and stuff blows up.

[01:24:31] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm just for me the production wasn't.

[01:24:35] [SPEAKER_08]: Wasn't wasn't up to its best in my opinion.

[01:24:38] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[01:24:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'll be sure to write into Rachel.

[01:24:43] [SPEAKER_02]: For now, I really like this.

[01:24:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I love the line.

[01:24:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I love a human to feel it.

[01:24:48] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and I think Rand doesn't realize that he's completely playing into her hand of.

[01:24:54] [SPEAKER_02]: She's she's of course going to help him out.

[01:24:56] [SPEAKER_02]: He was she was going to do that anyway.

[01:24:58] [SPEAKER_02]: But now she has him owing her a favor in his mind.

[01:25:03] [SPEAKER_08]: She's playing.

[01:25:04] [SPEAKER_08]: She's having a good day.

[01:25:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so yeah, she because she knows him it's okay.

[01:25:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So we talk about parasols or relationships with podcasting and how like people know a lot more about us than we know about them.

[01:25:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[01:25:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that gives them a little bit of an informational advantage when they do things like right in.

[01:25:19] [SPEAKER_02]: But this is the same thing, right?

[01:25:22] [SPEAKER_02]: She spent a lifetime with the previous incarnation of Rand.

[01:25:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And now he only knows the fake persona that he she put up for a few months.

[01:25:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And that is a huge advantage for her.

[01:25:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Not the message.

[01:25:37] [SPEAKER_02]: She's the rethalsing years old and has had a lot of time to learn things.

[01:25:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I really like this scene.

[01:25:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And I like how Rand is just kind of a kid who is like,

[01:25:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to manipulate this crazy smart woman.

[01:25:50] [SPEAKER_02]: She's like, that's cute.

[01:25:52] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I do pat pat pat on the head.

[01:25:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. Oh, good job little buddy.

[01:25:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:25:58] [SPEAKER_02]: All right. Let's go to a Lana confirming to Maxim that land fear walks the world and Maxim

[01:26:03] [SPEAKER_02]: laments the loss of their simple farm life.

[01:26:06] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[01:26:08] [SPEAKER_08]: Not sure there's that much here.

[01:26:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I just figured out another point for a Lana such you like or so much.

[01:26:16] [SPEAKER_08]: I do.

[01:26:16] [SPEAKER_08]: I do.

[01:26:18] [SPEAKER_08]: And yeah, it was just sort of a mechanical scene.

[01:26:22] [SPEAKER_08]: There was a lot to go for.

[01:26:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep, land offers Logan the key to his captivity in exchange for information about any weaves on marine.

[01:26:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Logine tells land there are a man's weaves tied off on marine.

[01:26:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Logine tries to get the key but Lance as he has and forgotten what he did to his friends.

[01:26:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Meanwhile, land fear burns her way to Rand.

[01:26:48] [SPEAKER_08]: Interesting.

[01:26:48] [SPEAKER_08]: So I think this is CSI, uh, land.

[01:26:51] [SPEAKER_08]: Detective land here on the case trying to put it all together.

[01:26:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So yep.

[01:26:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so were you surprised that he renegged his offer?

[01:27:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, he didn't explicitly say it. He just put it on the table and he made him think.

[01:27:06] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's like it's kind of cheap.

[01:27:08] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it is a lie.

[01:27:10] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, but land can lie.

[01:27:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but right.

[01:27:14] [SPEAKER_02]: He's not I'm not saying on I'm not saying on oaths, but I'm saying like kind of dishonorable.

[01:27:19] [SPEAKER_02]: But I guess he's saying, well, you've already dishonored me.

[01:27:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Fuck off.

[01:27:23] [SPEAKER_08]: Do you want him? Do you want Logan out in the world?

[01:27:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I think he's more interesting free.

[01:27:30] Hmm.

[01:27:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't you don't you want another wild card on the board?

[01:27:33] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, we got all I got enough cards.

[01:27:35] [SPEAKER_02]: What is I'm welcome to the Wheel of Time every time everything's a wild card.

[01:27:40] [SPEAKER_02]: That's that's really what it is.

[01:27:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like Robert Jordan is great at like putting a lot of moving pieces around and I think he was a lot better than

[01:27:47] [SPEAKER_02]: George R. Martin about tracking them and he'll remember like, oh, I put this person there three books ago.

[01:27:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to bring him back here for this purpose.

[01:27:56] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, I know Martin has assistance as well, but Jordan had that as well.

[01:28:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, people who are helping him track those details.

[01:28:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[01:28:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, so this whole idea of this was a forgotten thing to tie weaves.

[01:28:10] [SPEAKER_02]: That's very much a show creation.

[01:28:12] [SPEAKER_02]: People can tie off weaves all the time in the box.

[01:28:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay. Oh, interesting.

[01:28:16] [SPEAKER_08]: All right. That's not a forgotten thing in the books are people upset.

[01:28:21] [SPEAKER_08]: I haven't seen a lot of people be upset about it.

[01:28:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's fine for a plot device.

[01:28:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I still think the whole stilling plot line from a rain was stupid.

[01:28:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't have done it at all.

[01:28:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I would have just just there be.

[01:28:33] [SPEAKER_02]: What do we get out of it?

[01:28:35] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, yeah, we got dramatic tension with her and Swan.

[01:28:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Kind of.

[01:28:39] [SPEAKER_08]: Now she's got to be on the run.

[01:28:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. So I think she's still you could have thought of a million reasons to get her to not train

[01:28:44] [SPEAKER_02]: her and well, especially the fact that she can't train ran because she's a woman channeling side R instead of sighting.

[01:28:51] [SPEAKER_08]: All right. Well, you've got a copy of word on your computer.

[01:28:54] [SPEAKER_08]: Let's go.

[01:28:57] [SPEAKER_02]: No thank you.

[01:28:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm here to criticize not to fit.

[01:29:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, critique is much easier than creation.

[01:29:03] [SPEAKER_02]: It sure is.

[01:29:04] [SPEAKER_02]: It sure is.

[01:29:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, good for the writers.

[01:29:06] [SPEAKER_02]: They won this week.

[01:29:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm allowed to criticize them now.

[01:29:09] [SPEAKER_08]: There it off.

[01:29:11] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[01:29:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's go to Avienda explaining Gato to Perrin explaining that her toe was her beating as a penance for allowing her friend joya to die while defending her.

[01:29:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess you were bothered by Gato, generally.

[01:29:29] [SPEAKER_08]: No, I.

[01:29:31] [SPEAKER_08]: I.

[01:29:32] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm getting all I'm seeing right now is the surface of this carma Dharma, right?

[01:29:39] [SPEAKER_02]: It's yeah.

[01:29:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Your your Dharma is your G and then your toe is your darma is your karma, which is, you know, your come up and

[01:29:47] [SPEAKER_02]: but the the I'll believe that, you know, you make the karma happen, right?

[01:29:53] [SPEAKER_02]: You if you if you do something wrong, you have to make it up to the other person.

[01:29:57] [SPEAKER_02]: You have to fulfill a duty or take a beating or whatever it is.

[01:30:00] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[01:30:00] [SPEAKER_08]: And I don't think Dharma has a and I could be wrong about this, but I don't believe that Dharma has a.

[01:30:08] [SPEAKER_08]: That there is a counter point that's sort of a, you know, punitive in that way.

[01:30:14] [SPEAKER_08]: Dharma is if your.

[01:30:18] [SPEAKER_08]: If your job in this world is to be a venture every time you're not painting, you're not living your Dharma.

[01:30:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[01:30:27] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, if your job is to be an athlete in this world every time you're not being an athlete,

[01:30:30] [SPEAKER_08]: you're not living your Dharma.

[01:30:32] [SPEAKER_08]: All right.

[01:30:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So they sure it's so it's it's more detached from karma in that way you're saying.

[01:30:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.

[01:30:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So this is this is linked here for sure.

[01:30:40] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes exactly.

[01:30:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's a you're not following the rules and then you are going to have a bad time of it.

[01:30:46] [SPEAKER_08]: It's an economy there's an economy here of between two different things.

[01:30:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, right.

[01:30:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Well anyway, I like Gito I disagree with it.

[01:30:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't implement it, but I think it's a very interesting aspect of the IEL culture.

[01:31:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, they're in the lane track distinct.

[01:31:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mixed them really distinct from the the ran lenders, the wet ladders.

[01:31:08] [SPEAKER_08]: Fair enough.

[01:31:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Nine neave distracts a soul-bom long enough to put an eye down on her.

[01:31:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Brutana tries to bond with a grain by telling her the shanjans mission is to unite the world to fight the last battle for the light.

[01:31:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And a queen tells Renna, she'll kill her.

[01:31:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Renna could use angrily.

[01:31:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's it was really good.

[01:31:28] [SPEAKER_02]: This was that's the best part of this episode, I think.

[01:31:30] [SPEAKER_02]: It's me is this idea of well, this and end the whole last conversation between Matt and Ishamell are the most interesting conversations in this or just it really lays these gray motivations for the villains.

[01:31:44] [SPEAKER_08]: Mm-hmm.

[01:31:46] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[01:31:48] [SPEAKER_08]: I like the quote unquote good guys doing something bad as well.

[01:31:52] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[01:31:52] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[01:31:53] [SPEAKER_08]: What do you call this thing again? I apologize.

[01:31:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think all of the shows saying A-domb but I really don't.

[01:31:58] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't think all of them say A-domb.

[01:31:59] [SPEAKER_08]: So I like that they do the they put an A-domb on somebody which is pretty horrible.

[01:32:05] [SPEAKER_08]: It's a horrible thing to do.

[01:32:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Right, but they're putting it on the sliver right?

[01:32:09] [SPEAKER_02]: They're putting it on the person who normally puts it on others.

[01:32:12] [SPEAKER_08]: And we don't know what that does too.

[01:32:14] [SPEAKER_08]: It is but you know that's the there's a term the master's tools right?

[01:32:19] [SPEAKER_08]: Do you use the tools of your enemy?

[01:32:21] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, or what's his name says in Andor.

[01:32:26] [SPEAKER_08]: All right.

[01:32:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So by soul to.

[01:32:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[01:32:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but in my soul to whatever yeah.

[01:32:32] [SPEAKER_08]: I can see his face why am I liking his character name.

[01:32:34] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, Lutheran.

[01:32:36] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, what Lutheran does you know is to use the tools of the enemy against them.

[01:32:41] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.

[01:32:41] [SPEAKER_08]: But that that has a cost that has a that does moral harm to the person doing it.

[01:32:47] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, fire may be fighting a just war.

[01:32:50] [SPEAKER_08]: I can think of a good friend of mine in high school who's father, father and world war two and had a lot of trauma that played out for the rest of his life and effected their life as well.

[01:33:04] [SPEAKER_08]: My friends life.

[01:33:06] [SPEAKER_08]: It was a just war and they did just things in terms of overthrowing you know an evil brutal regime.

[01:33:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[01:33:13] [SPEAKER_08]: But that still had a cost.

[01:33:16] [SPEAKER_08]: And so by putting the thing on the soul dumb.

[01:33:21] [SPEAKER_02]: The sorry putting the item on the school.

[01:33:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I am yes.

[01:33:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[01:33:26] [SPEAKER_02]: There's just so much vowelness to you just got a role with it.

[01:33:30] [SPEAKER_02]: It's okay.

[01:33:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm working with you.

[01:33:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm working here with you.

[01:33:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll help you out.

[01:33:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I've just had a lot more.

[01:33:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Immersion in this world.

[01:33:38] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, absolutely.

[01:33:39] [SPEAKER_08]: Anyway, putting the the item on the the soul.

[01:33:41] [SPEAKER_08]: Dom is still that still has a cost.

[01:33:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah.

[01:33:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I agree with you.

[01:33:46] [SPEAKER_08]: Interesting story.

[01:33:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I completely agree with you.

[01:33:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that um, you know, it is a horrible thing to do if you have to do it to get into this place and save your friend.

[01:33:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Then this is the best way to do it right is to put it on the sliver put it on the soul.

[01:34:01] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, you got it.

[01:34:03] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, and of course it's the you know, it's a well worn road a well worn trope here.

[01:34:08] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, disguising yourself to get past the guards.

[01:34:11] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, so it works and it works in this world.

[01:34:13] [SPEAKER_08]: And I have, you know, what's interesting here.

[01:34:16] [SPEAKER_02]: What's interesting here is that they're not just disguising themselves with look.

[01:34:20] [SPEAKER_02]: They're disguising themselves with the act with the exact.

[01:34:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[01:34:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's that's interesting.

[01:34:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Subverting that trope a little bit.

[01:34:27] [SPEAKER_08]: That's right.

[01:34:28] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, on retrospect to this episode is pretty packed.

[01:34:31] [SPEAKER_02]: It is.

[01:34:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think you're right.

[01:34:33] [SPEAKER_02]: The long set line.

[01:34:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I've done I think.

[01:34:35] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, there's a lot of detail.

[01:34:36] [SPEAKER_08]: There's a lot of I think that's what I was reacting to earlier on was like,

[01:34:40] [SPEAKER_08]: there's a lot of substance to this.

[01:34:43] [SPEAKER_08]: And I think going through it, seeing by seeing like this actually is opening my eye even more to how much was was going on here.

[01:34:50] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, and then just a quick comment about the relationship between Renna and a grain here.

[01:34:57] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, and she's she's like, oh, you're good pet, you know, and you know, look,

[01:35:01] [SPEAKER_08]: you did such a good job and I'm going to be so nice to you now.

[01:35:05] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[01:35:06] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[01:35:06] [SPEAKER_08]: Wayne, I think it going starting to go a little insane.

[01:35:10] [SPEAKER_08]: But of course you would in this circumstance, right?

[01:35:12] [SPEAKER_08]: And she's burning with there's an inner fire in her that is not unlike Arias fire in some ways or or or

[01:35:22] [SPEAKER_08]: or son says fire, which is whoa, this is an evil place.

[01:35:25] [SPEAKER_08]: And for me to get out of here, it's going to I have to go a little crazy to be able to do the things that I'm going to need to do to get out of this.

[01:35:35] [SPEAKER_08]: It's going to it's going to cost.

[01:35:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's very sad to see all this happening to her and I agree with her motive.

[01:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I agree with her anger, you know?

[01:35:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:35:47] [SPEAKER_02]: She has a right to be angry at this woman.

[01:35:49] [SPEAKER_08]: We get a lot and there's a lot of conversation about how rough the last episode was.

[01:35:53] [SPEAKER_08]: It's a really impacted people.

[01:35:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[01:35:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[01:35:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Now she's in good cop mode.

[01:36:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Barthanas enters Marines chamber and discovers it was a trap laid by his mother.

[01:36:05] [SPEAKER_02]: He explains he went to the dark to elevate their family and asks her to let it continue on there.

[01:36:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Says she already told everyone about his actions and walks away from his pleas.

[01:36:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Pretty rough.

[01:36:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, pretty rough.

[01:36:19] [SPEAKER_08]: Not easy to.

[01:36:22] [SPEAKER_08]: What's the the duties heavy is a mountain?

[01:36:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, is lighter than a feather.

[01:36:31] [SPEAKER_08]: So she for her to be able to imprison her son this way is not an easy it's a heartbreaking thing.

[01:36:38] [SPEAKER_02]: No, she's reverably mentions Marine right? She's like, hmm.

[01:36:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Basically she's like, I think she's basically saying I love my son more than my sister.

[01:36:49] [SPEAKER_02]: But my sister at least knows right from wrong.

[01:36:52] [SPEAKER_02]: She has principles and yeah, and in this situation she'd be right to imprison you and I'm going to do it for her.

[01:36:59] [SPEAKER_08]: And yeah, you're you're taking a shortcut to power. You're taking where have we seen that before?

[01:37:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you hear Darth Maul on the background?

[01:37:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[01:37:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Therein uses some isodied wordplay to free ran from the shield and they take ran to the way gate.

[01:37:21] [SPEAKER_08]: Yep, pretty straightforward. Well, well, well, well, warm trope. Oh, you know, you're needed elsewhere.

[01:37:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to actually address this because there was a lot of conversation in discord about this and really Alicia actually settled this debate and I like the way she broke it down.

[01:37:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So people are saying since swan was surprised to see Leonelator did verin lie.

[01:37:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, which would mean she was black object right.

[01:37:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. Okay. Here's here's Alicia's defense of verin.

[01:37:57] [SPEAKER_08]: So verin and I mean, Browns have a bookish right there. They're researchers. They're bookies.

[01:38:02] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.

[01:38:03] [SPEAKER_08]: Right. And verin, as we know, is she is experienced and she has a level of wisdom. So yes, I mean, I'm very interested because she's not.

[01:38:15] [SPEAKER_08]: She's not a simple player on the board. She has a lot of complexity to her.

[01:38:19] [SPEAKER_08]: Very far.

[01:38:19] [SPEAKER_08]: She get out of this.

[01:38:20] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah. Tell me tell me tell me tell me tell me.

[01:38:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And marane says you pick your words cleverly. You know what it's like.

[01:38:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[01:38:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So the brain would have called her out for lying.

[01:38:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So here is the breakdown from Alicia. One, she told Leona swan need your strength true even if she didn't ask for it.

[01:38:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I've been asked to shield him. We didn't see this, but presumably she's one of the people asked to join the rotation just not necessarily then.

[01:38:44] [SPEAKER_08]: A nice number three.

[01:38:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I told all take over the shield and she did for a second.

[01:38:50] [SPEAKER_08]: Nice.

[01:38:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So yes, that you can you can check box all these statements and they were all true technically.

[01:38:58] [SPEAKER_08]: She says this is an order. Leon said I so she's giving an order.

[01:39:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[01:39:03] [SPEAKER_08]: In order is just an order. I would like to a.

[01:39:06] [SPEAKER_08]: To a.

[01:39:07] [SPEAKER_08]: Exactly. She didn't say this is an order from the.

[01:39:12] [SPEAKER_08]: The ameralin sea.

[01:39:13] [SPEAKER_08]: Right. She put it in the same conversation.

[01:39:16] [SPEAKER_08]: Right.

[01:39:18] [SPEAKER_08]: The ameralin sea needs your support and this is an order.

[01:39:22] [SPEAKER_08]: Nice.

[01:39:23] [SPEAKER_08]: Nice.

[01:39:24] [SPEAKER_08]: Nice.

[01:39:24] [SPEAKER_08]: Leon.

[01:39:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Well done indeed.

[01:39:26] [SPEAKER_02]: That was that was one of the best examples of I said I speak.

[01:39:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I can I can find him as whole show very very good.

[01:39:34] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, and I and I like I like very in.

[01:39:37] [SPEAKER_08]: I like I'm sorry who's the green with the.

[01:39:42] [SPEAKER_08]: I like the.

[01:39:42] [SPEAKER_08]: So, you know, there's there's some great secondary characters within.

[01:39:46] [SPEAKER_08]: In the Isidai here that we're seeing.

[01:39:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So yep.

[01:39:50] [SPEAKER_08]: Good actors.

[01:39:51] [SPEAKER_08]: Two they picked good actors. I'm very happy.

[01:39:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Absolutely.

[01:39:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Swan links with other Isidai to create rain that puts out the fires.

[01:39:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Leon is a.

[01:40:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Arrives a surprising swan.

[01:40:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Swan orders Leon to lead her sisters in healing the city.

[01:40:08] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, yep.

[01:40:09] [SPEAKER_08]: We got a link.

[01:40:10] [SPEAKER_08]: Did we get an email about linking?

[01:40:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure.

[01:40:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't even looked at the feedback, but we will.

[01:40:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm in it.

[01:40:16] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, because it was about the, somebody wrote in about the number.

[01:40:19] [SPEAKER_08]: We'll get to it.

[01:40:20] [SPEAKER_08]: But somebody wrote in about the number.

[01:40:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, the number is to gentle.

[01:40:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:40:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:40:24] [SPEAKER_02]: All of that kind of stuff.

[01:40:26] [SPEAKER_08]: So yeah.

[01:40:27] [SPEAKER_08]: Cool.

[01:40:27] [SPEAKER_08]: And is this the first time we've seen a big group linking?

[01:40:30] [SPEAKER_08]: We did see it in season one when they captured Logan, I guess, and kept him under.

[01:40:35] [SPEAKER_02]: That.

[01:40:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[01:40:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And we saw it with the finale, too, with the battle with the other.

[01:40:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's right.

[01:40:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And the other people, which made everyone angry.

[01:40:44] [SPEAKER_02]: But anyway, it's a matter for now.

[01:40:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Doesn't matter for now.

[01:40:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Land tells Marine.

[01:40:51] [SPEAKER_02]: She's been shielded and they tell Rand to use the one power to cut the weave.

[01:40:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Rands exceeds ending marine shielding.

[01:40:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Marine opens the wig gate, but swan arrives shields.

[01:41:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Rand and orders Marine to close the gate.

[01:41:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Land fear arrives and knocks one out.

[01:41:09] [SPEAKER_02]: She opens the wig gate, and she ran land and Marine walk through well swan pleads with

[01:41:16] [SPEAKER_02]: marine.

[01:41:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Rand on the run.

[01:41:19] [SPEAKER_08]: Here we go.

[01:41:20] [SPEAKER_08]: Back on the.

[01:41:21] [SPEAKER_08]: Back out on the lamb.

[01:41:23] [SPEAKER_08]: On the lamb with land.

[01:41:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[01:41:26] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a possible.

[01:41:28] [SPEAKER_08]: So they can.

[01:41:30] [SPEAKER_08]: There's a story in the age of legends.

[01:41:34] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, for sure.

[01:41:35] [SPEAKER_08]: I can do this.

[01:41:36] [SPEAKER_08]: That's what the dialogue says.

[01:41:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Which again, this is a show creation.

[01:41:39] [SPEAKER_02]: This was absolutely possible in the books.

[01:41:41] [SPEAKER_02]: People wouldn't have blinked at saying I tied off the shield.

[01:41:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Whether a tie-dolph-shield is as strong as an active shield is a question that I will leave

[01:41:50] [SPEAKER_02]: for later.

[01:41:53] [SPEAKER_08]: But it's a device and it worked.

[01:41:55] [SPEAKER_08]: I know you don't, you know, the motivation.

[01:41:58] [SPEAKER_08]: But now there are now that this is available in the world, are we going to see it more

[01:42:06] [SPEAKER_08]: employed further on down the ground?

[01:42:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Will Marine learn that?

[01:42:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Will we learn that?

[01:42:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Will we learn that?

[01:42:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[01:42:12] [SPEAKER_02]: All that.

[01:42:12] [SPEAKER_08]: Is this a check-offie and not?

[01:42:16] [SPEAKER_08]: I guess you could say.

[01:42:17] [SPEAKER_08]: We've not.

[01:42:17] [SPEAKER_08]: Sure.

[01:42:17] [SPEAKER_08]: Check-offs.

[01:42:18] [SPEAKER_08]: We've not.

[01:42:20] [SPEAKER_08]: Sorry.

[01:42:20] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm really pulling there.

[01:42:22] [SPEAKER_08]: I didn't mean to.

[01:42:24] [SPEAKER_08]: Fish merch.

[01:42:25] [SPEAKER_08]: Check-offs.

[01:42:26] [SPEAKER_08]: Theory.

[01:42:26] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a merch away.

[01:42:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Well David, it's time for listener feedback.

[01:42:30] [SPEAKER_02]: We've got a bunch today because we've been recorded a little bit later and that's kind

[01:42:34] [SPEAKER_02]: of cool.

[01:42:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm glad that we're getting more people running in.

[01:42:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Kathy W.

[01:42:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Email the lower-hand of the lower-hand.com said hi guys.

[01:42:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Loving the Asuka Pods at the moment, I have a question about the wheel of time though.

[01:42:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I read books one to ten nearly 20 years ago and then when Book 11 came out started

[01:42:52] [SPEAKER_02]: again.

[01:42:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So it was fresh and kept getting sidetracked.

[01:42:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So here we are in 2023 and I'm once again on the Dragon Reborn and still never read

[01:42:59] [SPEAKER_02]: past book ten even though I've read books one to six four times a second count.

[01:43:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm determined to finish this time but are there any late series spoilers in the podcast?

[01:43:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd like to listen but I've lasted this long but that's pointly the ending and I don't

[01:43:13] [SPEAKER_02]: want to ruin it for myself after all this time.

[01:43:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks Kathy.

[01:43:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So in the main section, no book spoilers pass where we are.

[01:43:19] [SPEAKER_02]: In the White Tower we do go all the way to the last battle.

[01:43:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So we are end-be-on.

[01:43:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So you should definitely stay away from that if you don't want to get spoiled.

[01:43:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Go finish the book, Kathy.

[01:43:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I believe in you.

[01:43:33] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah and like we said at the top of the episode you can safely get spoiler free hot takes

[01:43:39] [SPEAKER_08]: from Alyssa before they get into the details of White Tower stuff.

[01:43:44] [SPEAKER_08]: So you know definitely listen into the first part of White Tower.

[01:43:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[01:43:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Alright well thanks Kathy and good luck with the reread.

[01:43:51] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah thanks for and right us back again please.

[01:43:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Ted H in Cincinnati emailed WOT at theloorhounds.com

[01:44:00] [SPEAKER_02]: says shanthin enemy or ally.

[01:44:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Hey guys, long time listener of all your podcasts.

[01:44:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I particularly love your Wheel of Time coverage because you can hear the love of the source material

[01:44:10] [SPEAKER_02]: in your voices much like with Tolkien.

[01:44:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely love the Wheel of Time.

[01:44:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Love like that it's coming like that we're coming through.

[01:44:18] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean I think there could be non-fantasy or fantasy adjacent folks who could have a heart out

[01:44:23] [SPEAKER_08]: or even book cloaks as they're being cloaked.

[01:44:27] [SPEAKER_08]: But yeah I think we try to do that with all of our podcasts as we try to look for

[01:44:32] [SPEAKER_08]: what's good and really elevate that and enjoy that stuff and then we pick our nits

[01:44:37] [SPEAKER_08]: and we have our criticisms but we don't we're not mean about it right?

[01:44:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Alright I had to ask you about the shanthin feel free to save this question if it might be

[01:44:45] [SPEAKER_02]: big spoiler and just let me know the wheel weaves if so.

[01:44:48] [SPEAKER_02]: This people has been presented as a mysterious empire from across the sea and so far

[01:44:53] [SPEAKER_02]: has been framed as the enemy at every turn.

[01:44:55] [SPEAKER_02]: They conquer territory and slave people and do far worse to the demonic.

[01:45:00] [SPEAKER_02]: However I can't help but think that they're not the big bad in this world.

[01:45:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Ishamel is attached to just one of their leaders and he is trying to corrupt them and gain favor.

[01:45:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's clear the dark one is separate from the shanthin.

[01:45:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So should I regard them as just an extension of the dark one or they more nuanced?

[01:45:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Personally I see them as a potential ally in the final battle to come however.

[01:45:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I'm trying to make this complex world more complex than need be.

[01:45:23] [SPEAKER_08]: It's complex enough.

[01:45:24] [SPEAKER_02]: It is complex and you were correct to not lump them in with the dark one.

[01:45:29] [SPEAKER_02]: They are not following the shadow in their intention.

[01:45:34] [SPEAKER_02]: They think that they are following the light and they are preparing for the last battle.

[01:45:37] [SPEAKER_02]: We saw that with Renna in this episode I think that was made very clear.

[01:45:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think this was written before this episode so I'm glad that the episode

[01:45:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Let you in on that.

[01:45:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's probably cleared up by now but I'll confirm it here.

[01:45:51] [SPEAKER_02]: They are not on the side of the shadow at least in their minds.

[01:45:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Alright thanks and cannot wait for next week.

[01:45:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Ted from Cincinnati.

[01:46:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Well thanks Ted.

[01:46:01] [SPEAKER_02]: That was it's always fun to talk about the nuances of the world especially with the shanthin.

[01:46:05] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah and feel free to if for book reader or non-book reader like write in your questions because

[01:46:10] [SPEAKER_08]: yeah there's so much to there's a lot of head scratchy material in here not in a bad way but just

[01:46:16] [SPEAKER_08]: like oh wait what is this how does it work so yeah we definitely want to be a resource for everyone.

[01:46:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[01:46:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Alright John the Master sent us an email regarding EAT vs 13 ISA die.

[01:46:29] [SPEAKER_02]: In the latest episode of the lorehounds you were talking about the book stating the need

[01:46:34] [SPEAKER_02]: for 13 to gentle someone but the show has changed it to 8.

[01:46:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm reading through the books I'm only on book 6 but based on what I've read so far I think

[01:46:42] [SPEAKER_02]: that might be incorrect.

[01:46:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I believe 13 is mentioned as the number of ISA die and fades needed to turn

[01:46:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna remember this actually.

[01:46:53] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a ignore that David.

[01:46:55] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh yeah whatever it's good.

[01:46:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I am now redacting this email from John the Master because mentions that 13 is the number

[01:47:03] [SPEAKER_02]: of ISA die used in another context that I think let's let's save that for later.

[01:47:11] [SPEAKER_02]: There's also another thing next that is is spoilery.

[01:47:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you're right John the Master though that this is a number that I might have taken

[01:47:21] [SPEAKER_02]: from somewhere else and that it's used in different channeling things than the gentling.

[01:47:28] [SPEAKER_08]: So they've done some mechanics then in terms of numbers and function okay that's fair enough right

[01:47:34] [SPEAKER_08]: they have to do that for show stuff.

[01:47:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I did a rewatch of gentling in of logine in season one and it looks like exactly 8 were used

[01:47:43] [SPEAKER_02]: so maybe 8 is the show's gentling number for whatever reason but they're going to keep 13 as

[01:47:49] [SPEAKER_02]: different thing. I can't have redacting here a lot.

[01:47:54] [SPEAKER_02]: That's my best guess right now but the addition of 8 as the number of significance does seem messy.

[01:47:59] [SPEAKER_02]: It makes me wonder is there actually a minimum for stilling in the books?

[01:48:03] [SPEAKER_02]: As far as I can remember thus far I have not read one. I just understand it to be very difficult to do.

[01:48:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Sort of like shielding becomes harder the more powerful the shield of person is.

[01:48:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I would imagine stilling is even harder than just shielding but to avoid vague spoilers let's not say this.

[01:48:25] [SPEAKER_02]: John the Master thank you for writing in. I think you're right. I'm going to do a little

[01:48:29] [SPEAKER_02]: digging on this myself. I'll get back to you again next week with a definitive answer but I think

[01:48:34] [SPEAKER_02]: you're right that the number 13 might be coming from somewhere else.

[01:48:37] [SPEAKER_08]: I think this is a good point too that if you've got a spoilery what you think might be maybe market

[01:48:43] [SPEAKER_08]: or just throw in that note that this might be a white tower thing and then we can push this email

[01:48:49] [SPEAKER_08]: over to Alicia and John so it's not in the general section.

[01:48:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Alright well very cool let's go to Stu aka do 71 loremaster in front of the pod with a big

[01:49:03] [SPEAKER_02]: episode 6 feedback email. Hi guys I'm just going to go right into it that was a pretty heavy episode

[01:49:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think for the first time it really showed the stakes of the world of the wheel.

[01:49:13] [SPEAKER_02]: As David said on the pod it's a world of high fantasy fantastical creatures,

[01:49:17] [SPEAKER_02]: prophecies, magic wielders, ancient artifacts all the ingredients for a rich bowl of cereal.

[01:49:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Along comes episode 6 which gives a big dose of realism and drops a whopping

[01:49:29] [SPEAKER_02]: sour pickle into that sweet sweet breakfast. This is no bad thing in my humble opinion episode 6

[01:49:35] [SPEAKER_02]: could be the episode where the casual viewer is now locking in and writing along for the story

[01:49:41] [SPEAKER_02]: the show runners want to tell. We are starting to enter the end of season arc and we can see

[01:49:46] [SPEAKER_02]: some of the jeopardy and the cost of being to veer and being in their orbit. I'm so hoping that

[01:49:52] [SPEAKER_02]: after the suffering of a goain went through through this episode that they do what they did

[01:49:58] [SPEAKER_02]: in the books I am not going to now say this. Honestly later note since getting more into the wheel

[01:50:08] [SPEAKER_02]: of time I have seen my the level of interest that the fandom exhibits on social media.

[01:50:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Alicia kindly invited me to blue sky this week and I have to say my feed is predominantly wheel

[01:50:18] [SPEAKER_08]: of time or cats and those guys love their life. Cats are really colonizers and

[01:50:24] [SPEAKER_02]: any new internet platform. Right and those guys love their lore and dive so deep

[01:50:29] [SPEAKER_02]: that you may encounter aquatic aliens. Old man movie link here. John the Abyss. Nice.

[01:50:35] [SPEAKER_02]: All right do you know this movie David? The Abyss. Yeah for shame, John for shame. I'm never

[01:50:41] [SPEAKER_02]: never a part of this in my whole life. The Abyss, James Cameron. I believe it is it James Cameron

[01:50:47] [SPEAKER_08]: who is it? I don't know. It was a very early it had a big CGI thing deep sea alien stuff

[01:50:55] [SPEAKER_08]: um who is the director of the Abyss. Yeah James Cameron. I was right. Very very

[01:51:05] [SPEAKER_08]: did you ever see like Armageddon or any of those ill-to-movies? Okay. Anyway yes very very

[01:51:12] [SPEAKER_08]: consequential and monumental film both in terms of its technology and in a certain version of story

[01:51:19] [SPEAKER_02]: telling so. All right for enough. Do you have continues with that letter feel? I really loved

[01:51:25] [SPEAKER_02]: landfierce totally outrageous dumb outfit with the headdress. It was just can't be but not too much.

[01:51:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So have to disrew their David the headdress. Very very very time-lord from Dr. Who vibes and I'm

[01:51:38] [SPEAKER_02]: fine with it. All right. Thank you guys have commented on the step up this season and costuming

[01:51:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and I have to agree with multiple cultures and factions the outfits and accessories are really

[01:51:47] [SPEAKER_02]: helping to ground the production in the world. That's all really as my main focus was on the

[01:51:53] [SPEAKER_02]: great acting and direction that we saw in this episode that translated he scenes that were difficult

[01:51:58] [SPEAKER_02]: to read in the book but that were taken to a whole new visceral level in the show and I salute

[01:52:03] [SPEAKER_02]: the great team that brought them to the screen. As I said earlier I hope that we have seen the reaction

[01:52:08] [SPEAKER_02]: from the Wonder Girls in episode seven and not long until the season finale. Over the sea but

[01:52:15] [SPEAKER_08]: Shonchin stew would do 71. Yeah the costume department is earning their, earning their keep this

[01:52:24] [SPEAKER_08]: season they're doing a good job. I agree that it's helpful to have the visual cues

[01:52:29] [SPEAKER_02]: depending on where we are and what culture you're in. Yeah yeah the horror of the demonic stuff

[01:52:35] [SPEAKER_02]: really was you know it's present in the books but there's just some things that you can't do without

[01:52:39] [SPEAKER_02]: seeing real people with it. Right it's just a different thing. Right that's one of the advantages

[01:52:45] [SPEAKER_02]: of TV and film. Visual. You know the books have the advantage of showing inside the head

[01:52:50] [SPEAKER_02]: you know the visuals helped for our TV and film. Yep. All right Glinda and sent in an email with

[01:52:57] [SPEAKER_02]: a question hi guys I'm enjoying so much your Wheel of Time covered like very much the super book fan

[01:53:03] [SPEAKER_02]: versus the non book reader perspective loving the comparison once the events on the show clearly

[01:53:09] [SPEAKER_02]: differ from the books and the analysis David gives about narrative story arcs. Well thanks Glinda.

[01:53:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah she says I have a question for John what happened with the water of an isidai who has gone

[01:53:22] [SPEAKER_02]: dark. Does he know he has to write because of the bond or do you think the bond can be

[01:53:28] [SPEAKER_02]: masked without him noticing it? Okay so I should make clear and I think the show could do a

[01:53:35] [SPEAKER_02]: job of this you don't read the thoughts of your isidai if you're a water and you don't read

[01:53:40] [SPEAKER_02]: the thoughts of your water if you're an isidai. You get feelings and vibes and you can see location

[01:53:46] [SPEAKER_02]: but you could totally not know that your isidai is a dark friend. Oh interesting okay.

[01:53:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Right you could maybe figure it out from like feelings at certain stages. Yeah right but there's no

[01:54:01] [SPEAKER_08]: there's no automatic okay I know that you went to the shadow. Mm-hmm got it. Um and we got I mean

[01:54:08] [SPEAKER_02]: in oh gone to the dark right uh yep. Yeah yeah so uh well I think that will be that will be answered

[01:54:16] [SPEAKER_02]: more clearly later but for now I'm gonna say I think that that deception is possible. Cool.

[01:54:25] [SPEAKER_02]: All right so thanks so much have a good weekend. Kaelis Viya Lindo maybe I said that right uh

[01:54:32] [SPEAKER_08]: GM do you recognize this phrase David? Yeah John I believe that it is uh Spanish and it means basically

[01:54:39] [SPEAKER_08]: good luck to you. Oh well thanks yeah thanks Glinda. Yeah thanks for writing England it's

[01:54:43] [SPEAKER_02]: good to hear from you and I hope to hear from you again in the future. Cool all right last email from Mark P

[01:54:50] [SPEAKER_02]: who wrote in Wheel of Time Journey in Tom Marlin. Hi David and John. Hi Mark.

[01:54:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Loving your coverage bin with y'all since second age definitely making me consider watching some

[01:55:01] [SPEAKER_02]: shows I wouldn't have been otherwise like white lotus, soka, silo, etc. Sadly almost only so much

[01:55:07] [SPEAKER_08]: time in the day for now. Fair enough. Fair enough. Thanks for sticking it's always great to hear

[01:55:12] [SPEAKER_08]: from second ages right going all the way back and we get these occasionally we get a less now but

[01:55:19] [SPEAKER_08]: it's fun when when somebody does say that they've been around for that long so that's cool. It feels

[01:55:24] [SPEAKER_02]: like so long ago John. Right I know first John can you share a little bit about your Wheel of

[01:55:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Time reading journey. You've mentioned several times that you read the books multiple times and

[01:55:36] [SPEAKER_02]: others only once uh that makes me assume wrong or right that you started the series when it wasn't

[01:55:41] [SPEAKER_02]: finished and re-read it as new books were released is this the case or did you as some may have

[01:55:47] [SPEAKER_02]: struggle in the low in the middle books are you able to spend but maybe eat to 10 or something.

[01:55:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Curious hear your story and how it fit in with your Tolkien fandom as in which one came first.

[01:55:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Alright I'll answer this quick um I actually came to the Wheel of Time pretty late. I came in

[01:56:03] [SPEAKER_02]: New Year's Day 2022. I read my first Wheel of Time page because I had wanted to read it for a

[01:56:15] [SPEAKER_02]: for the holidays and I opened it up when I was off on New Year's Day and I plowed through the

[01:56:23] [SPEAKER_02]: books. And then so I read them all the way through once you just once you know not repeating anything

[01:56:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and then when I wanted to reread them I just started a reread I got through I think the first six or seven

[01:56:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and then I knew that the show was coming soon so I restarted again and uh yeah I've just kind of kept

[01:56:43] [SPEAKER_02]: going on the first few just to just keep it going maybe I went later than that because I think I've

[01:56:48] [SPEAKER_02]: recently read book nine but yeah the last the last few I have not read in a while but I'm gonna

[01:56:54] [SPEAKER_02]: keep rereading and then I'll probably read them a couple more times before season three honestly.

[01:56:59] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah you're a notoriously voracious reader so. And now less lately because I've been so busy with

[01:57:05] [SPEAKER_02]: the podcast right right but anyway Mark continues I for one was introduced to it mid to late 90s when

[01:57:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I was a middle schooler and book seven was the latest one released after a pause I did a full read

[01:57:19] [SPEAKER_02]: when book 10 came out yikes and then another full reread after book 14 came out uh the yikes is because

[01:57:27] [SPEAKER_02]: book 10 is the notorious slog book that is the book where almost nothing happens it's mostly

[01:57:34] [SPEAKER_02]: characters reacting to the events of book nine and it's still nobody knows why he did it the way he did

[01:57:43] [SPEAKER_02]: book 11 was really great it was returned to form and then unfortunately Robert Jordan passed away

[01:57:47] [SPEAKER_02]: shortly after book 11 right but um also I've realized I didn't answer the other part of Mark's

[01:57:53] [SPEAKER_02]: question I came to Tolkien way before so uh yeah yeah Tolkien first then wheel time although I think

[01:58:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I think Tolkien will always have you know my first love kind of thing for me but my comfort read is

[01:58:07] [SPEAKER_02]: of time I will I will pick up the wheel of time for a casual read before I'll pick up the load of the rings

[01:58:14] [SPEAKER_02]: our system mark continues with a question for the white tower I'm gonna despoiler it here

[01:58:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and answer here because the white tower has already recorded um just wants to know do we think Tom

[01:58:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Marilyn will appear this season what do you think David I have no idea I don't know who this character is

[01:58:31] [SPEAKER_08]: he was the bard from from season one oh the gleamman boy I know I might get a

[01:58:39] [SPEAKER_08]: not trouble but I I have not gotten back to a rewatch of season one and so my memories are vague

[01:58:49] [SPEAKER_08]: obviously I didn't recognize the name so I don't know it would be a pretty late

[01:58:56] [SPEAKER_08]: uh to bring in a character like that to a final episode of the season um so yeah my money would be

[01:59:06] [SPEAKER_08]: no but you know they could have you you know surprise me I think season three I think we'll see

[01:59:11] [SPEAKER_02]: him in season three okay all right anyways he says he was one of my favorite in the books and I enjoyed

[01:59:18] [SPEAKER_02]: him in season one though I'm guessing the more modern style of music might have a no a John

[01:59:22] [SPEAKER_02]: in the funny how people just know our taste now but yes you are right it did annoy me so it's a

[01:59:29] [SPEAKER_02]: shame if he's gone for a long time or gone completely I'm not gonna try to say this but this is the old

[01:59:36] [SPEAKER_02]: tongue for it's time to roll the dice so I tried his catchphrase I tried to google this and google thought

[01:59:43] [SPEAKER_08]: it was uh Hindi it didn't understand but that's interesting that it wasn't and at first I thought it

[01:59:50] [SPEAKER_08]: might be you know some sort of maybe even Catalanian or something like that but it no google thought

[01:59:58] [SPEAKER_08]: it was Hindi and then it then I realized then I did some more searching and then realized no no this is

[02:00:03] [SPEAKER_02]: real of time speak yep it's it's the old tongue so uh yeah it's it's uh it means basically

[02:00:09] [SPEAKER_02]: it's time to roll the dice it's something that Matt uses in the books quite a bit because you don't

[02:00:13] [SPEAKER_02]: use a gambler mm-hmm and I don't know if they'll bring into the show because it is a mouthful

[02:00:19] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's uh it's a fun phrase go people have lots onto it in the books people love it so

[02:00:25] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe they won't do at least a nod to it nice yeah all right it's always going little things like

[02:00:31] [SPEAKER_08]: that come out of the out of the literature and into into our daily reality right well Mark

[02:00:37] [SPEAKER_02]: thanks for writing in always a pleasure to hear from the fans and hear from the listeners

[02:00:42] [SPEAKER_02]: if you want to get in on this feedback of course you can write into wot at thelorhounds.com

[02:00:47] [SPEAKER_02]: or go to our website thelorhounds.com or join us on discord and chat with us in real time

[02:00:52] [SPEAKER_02]: all right David it's time to go to the white tower but first we've got a little bit of business to

[02:00:56] [SPEAKER_02]: get through programming notes very quickly we've got two affiliates Alicia who you'll

[02:01:00] [SPEAKER_02]: you're in a moment doing her feed will shift us you can check that out not a lot on there right now

[02:01:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's new but you got plenty of silo podcast and do and stuff to look at for the past

[02:01:10] [SPEAKER_08]: and she's coming up with she's got stuff coming so stay tuned to that that feed yep

[02:01:14] [SPEAKER_02]: then you've got properly Howard movie review where they are currently going through remakes

[02:01:19] [SPEAKER_02]: in a comedic fashion you can find the link to that in the show notes and you don't even have

[02:01:24] [SPEAKER_02]: to watch the movie you can just have a great time all right.lorh master shoutouts we have a

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[02:03:06] [SPEAKER_08]: zittinite to note that we have over a hundred subscribers now let's really exciting

[02:03:11] [SPEAKER_02]: very cool all right David thanks for doing this episode with me i think it's time to show you the door

[02:03:17] [SPEAKER_08]: and while you're sure everybody who doesn't want to get spoiled come with me if you want to live

[02:03:21] [SPEAKER_02]: well well well don't forget there's general impressions without spoilers first so

[02:03:26] [SPEAKER_08]: you don't have to leave just yet i'll leave the door open real little bit for you and

[02:03:29] [SPEAKER_02]: you can run out right afterwards so all right David i'll see you next week bye

[02:03:33] [SPEAKER_02]: elisha welcome back to the white tower how you doing today i am excited to talk about this episode

[02:03:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and to not talk as much about torture fair enough last episode was uh the most

[02:03:49] [SPEAKER_02]: torture it will probably get for a while for a while yeah yeah well we'll see where we go later

[02:03:54] [SPEAKER_02]: in this season what they decide to adapt from the books but for now we're not talking books

[02:03:59] [SPEAKER_02]: spoilers we're still giving general impressions on the non-spoiler part of the show what do you think

[02:04:04] [SPEAKER_00]: of the episode yeah i mean overall um i laughed out loud several times um i think the scene with

[02:04:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Matt was really fun um the there are a lot of changes from the books but i can see why i'm in the

[02:04:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted there to be a big messy wedding and obviously we got no wedding, no queen at all um nope but

[02:04:32] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah it was also i expected um i expect well i sorry we'll save that for spoilers but um but

[02:04:41] [SPEAKER_00]: it was like a lighter more fun episode although those swan yeah she's she's going over to the dark side

[02:04:47] [SPEAKER_02]: but i understand why right yeah the motivations were very clear what swan and i think that's

[02:04:53] [SPEAKER_02]: important you know when the characters use something unexpected it has to look expected in hindsight right

[02:04:59] [SPEAKER_02]: right and uh i think that that was clear here um swan is certainly one to bend the rules when she

[02:05:06] [SPEAKER_02]: needs to but i think she's very results based and this made sense for her character right and yeah

[02:05:13] [SPEAKER_00]: it was they played that nicely uh in the last moment when more ains going through the gate

[02:05:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and looks back at her in the ground and you know they juxtaposed that with them 20 years ago

[02:05:23] [SPEAKER_00]: in the tower like oh yeah i think that made me miss to get for sure right yeah it's it's really

[02:05:30] [SPEAKER_02]: heartbreaking to think about what could have been i mean we know that they were a lot more

[02:05:34] [SPEAKER_02]: explicit about the relationship of swan and marane in the show than they were in the books but i

[02:05:40] [SPEAKER_02]: think it works to provide even more character motivations and even deeper meaning to their interactions

[02:05:47] [SPEAKER_02]: the way that they've done in the show so i'm glad i'm actually glad that they made that change

[02:05:51] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah no i agree to i yeah i think that um all of the the more they bind these people together

[02:05:57] [SPEAKER_00]: with more meaning for relationships the more everything that happens later means right all right well cool

[02:06:06] [SPEAKER_02]: any other thoughts on the spoiler free part of the episode before we dig deep into the books

[02:06:11] [SPEAKER_00]: um no just i want to know what's in match t right it does seem like a good time and also a

[02:06:18] [SPEAKER_02]: terrible time yeah yeah well we'll see where that goes i could have sworn that we were going to see

[02:06:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Matt stab her and in one of the visions but i guess we didn't and so that's still on the table

[02:06:32] [SPEAKER_00]: right yeah another thing they have to wrap up uh next episode maybe maybe we'll see if they just

[02:06:39] [SPEAKER_02]: leave that hang in a couple seasons hmm yeah well all right i think it's time we move on to the

[02:06:45] [SPEAKER_02]: white tower so if you've not been here before basically we do our spoiler free thoughts and then

[02:06:51] [SPEAKER_02]: i play the ad break music if you're on the public feed you get an ad if you're on the patreon

[02:06:55] [SPEAKER_02]: you don't then we move into the spoiler section where we talk full swanlers for all 14 books

[02:07:01] [SPEAKER_02]: plus the prequel or 15 books the way at least you like speed aside and uh all right so we'll see

[02:07:06] [SPEAKER_02]: after the break put on your great serpent ring elitius that i because we've got some studying to do

[02:07:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and yeah it starts in the tower 20 years ago what did you think about the prophecy

[02:07:38] [SPEAKER_02]: i thought it was a good presentation of it they did change that it wasn't in front of the

[02:07:42] [SPEAKER_02]: amarlin and that we don't have to do the backstory of well she got murder that's why she doesn't

[02:07:46] [SPEAKER_02]: know blah blah blah blah that's fine that's fine that's a efficient change we don't need to know

[02:07:51] [SPEAKER_00]: about that previous amarlin but i would have liked to have seen hailey mills gets to speak it's

[02:07:55] [SPEAKER_00]: guitar just like i don't know at least a greeting before it started that felt a little sudden to me

[02:08:02] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah fair enough i guess i guess uh it was as sudden as it was for the characters right thinking

[02:08:08] [SPEAKER_02]: that they're about to go live their lives happily because the ones over suddenly they are faced with

[02:08:13] [SPEAKER_02]: this life or death situation that's gonna take up the rest of their lives yeah definitely definitely

[02:08:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and then yeah we we skipped forward to farm where a grain is while she's still in the same

[02:08:25] [SPEAKER_00]: position but looking much better than last week um we get to see one of my favorite things from

[02:08:31] [SPEAKER_00]: the books is when she learns like she shows this aptitude for delving in the different

[02:08:36] [SPEAKER_00]: metals which is unusual for women so okay they didn't go into that and i guess that's another

[02:08:43] [SPEAKER_00]: case of like simplifying the details but it was pretty impressive they show how they showed like

[02:08:47] [SPEAKER_00]: wait no this is you know everyone's been giving all the buzz to naineve but this is also an

[02:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: extremely powerful channel i yes and she's weaponized now yeah i'm glad that they made clear

[02:09:00] [SPEAKER_02]: that she is extremely powerful even if she's second-fittled and i need in the tower which is

[02:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: something that you know she's struttle within the show i think more than the books even because in

[02:09:08] [SPEAKER_02]: the books i think she has more of an individual specialty earlier on yeah is she feels more unique

[02:09:14] [SPEAKER_02]: earlier on and i think once she gets to dreaming once she gets to tell her real she will really

[02:09:20] [SPEAKER_02]: come into her own and feel like she doesn't have to compete with naineve right yeah and i and next season

[02:09:25] [SPEAKER_00]: presumably she'll be doing her wise woman training too so yeah that'll be cool i'm looking

[02:09:31] [SPEAKER_00]: to that yeah i i'm going the exchange student that's why she's one of my favorite characters

[02:09:38] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah she's really cool with that i really i really loved that plot line i liked i liked uh not so much

[02:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: the switching but the the whole idea of like she's keeping everything from them and they're like

[02:09:49] [SPEAKER_00]: it's fine now here's your toe yeah yeah and i i like she was showing some sats back to uh rena

[02:09:58] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah i the whole rena storyline which she was saying about i like how they snuck that in about

[02:10:03] [SPEAKER_00]: explaining what this shan chan believed from their perspective but it is interesting how you see

[02:10:09] [SPEAKER_00]: every faction once to unite everyone under the light you know it's a shan chan the white

[02:10:14] [SPEAKER_02]: cloaks i said i um right and you can see some discord in some discourse in discord about um

[02:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: you know people are saying are the shan chan evil a lot of people are asking and from a certain

[02:10:27] [SPEAKER_02]: perspective yes but i think they're asking are they serving the dark and the answer overall is no they

[02:10:32] [SPEAKER_02]: think there's a light they feel like they are serving the light their goal is to fight on the side

[02:10:37] [SPEAKER_02]: but light whether they are actually serving the interests of the light is a different question but i

[02:10:41] [SPEAKER_02]: think that it's a more interesting yeah it makes it exactly it makes it a more interesting faction

[02:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah and the fact that they they all think you know like she rena said this episode

[02:10:52] [SPEAKER_00]: we need to unite all together to face the light but by doing this they're actually dividing more

[02:11:00] [SPEAKER_02]: right yeah i think that's right i mean rand has the same idea later on right he's got his dragon's

[02:11:06] [SPEAKER_02]: he's got to unite everybody to fight against everybody and he tricks it going to pull everyone in that

[02:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: was that's one of my favorite moments in a memory of light yeah he goes it went into uh to invite

[02:11:18] [SPEAKER_02]: the whole world to this council um but yeah i think that they're right in overall mission they're

[02:11:26] [SPEAKER_00]: wrong in execution and in details right exactly yeah um and i also noticed make and still hanging

[02:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: out in the background you know she wasn't taking uh as a demonic in the books but i think they're

[02:11:38] [SPEAKER_00]: just setting this up so i'm guessing she's going to play um a prominent role in the saladar plot

[02:11:44] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe yeah i'm gonna end that in the book now be cool i think that's that's good we need to

[02:11:50] [SPEAKER_02]: condense some of those i said i because i can't even remember everybody involved with that

[02:11:53] [SPEAKER_00]: no exactly yeah i'm happy with this um and it also seems like loyal to come min's role this episode

[02:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: of being a go between um with the wonder girls um yeah and i loved we talked about this on

[02:12:07] [SPEAKER_00]: the discord already but i loved the interactions between niny and um and elaine you know

[02:12:13] [SPEAKER_00]: this time you listen to me and do exactly as i say she's absolutely right i mean who can argue

[02:12:20] [SPEAKER_02]: with that i mean the niny's whole plan has gotten them captured and gotten somebody killed and

[02:12:26] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah it's let's just do it my way for a little while buddy yeah yeah but then also nine

[02:12:31] [SPEAKER_00]: eve says is back when loyal's giving her his whole intro like don't encourage her yeah and i

[02:12:38] [SPEAKER_02]: do like that they adapted something sort of from the books in a similar way which was

[02:12:43] [SPEAKER_02]: that you know they they have the they find out that they need to just has themselves a

[02:12:48] [SPEAKER_02]: sublamant demonic getting right but then they say we have everything we need and that leads

[02:12:52] [SPEAKER_02]: the audience to think okay one of them's gonna have to be colored through this and then they do

[02:12:57] [SPEAKER_02]: the the twist of okay we're gonna knock out a soul bomb and chain them yeah but it's just seems

[02:13:03] [SPEAKER_00]: like it's not a secret in this show that soldem can channel like they seem to just know that already

[02:13:09] [SPEAKER_00]: okay you think so why not i mean i don't think it's so explicit as that but how do you

[02:13:15] [SPEAKER_00]: think that they knew that that would work on a soldem i don't know if they knew that it would only

[02:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: work on a channeler okay at the times yeah but maybe a queen puts it together i think that could

[02:13:26] [SPEAKER_02]: happen right it's like oh this so i've been told this only works on somebody who can channel obviously

[02:13:30] [SPEAKER_00]: the soldem can channel them okay yeah i am very curious to see because obviously expect the same

[02:13:36] [SPEAKER_00]: thing to happen with rena next episode yeah oh let's hope she deserves it yeah and i have to give some

[02:13:43] [SPEAKER_00]: props to the set decoration people because um so farm is recorded in this in a town called

[02:13:52] [SPEAKER_00]: a sweetra and moracco i was there in i was there in january of 2020 and really i can tell

[02:14:01] [SPEAKER_00]: the area where they're filming is just like these just a couple little streets that are next to

[02:14:06] [SPEAKER_00]: each other and have this open area where you could like film over the top because of the there's no roof

[02:14:11] [SPEAKER_00]: so they are for every scene they're like completely redecorating the area and i think they've

[02:14:18] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah done a good job with that so that's awesome that's super cool that makes it feel so much more

[02:14:24] [SPEAKER_00]: lived in yeah yeah yeah because that's that's a raise awful filled with shop so i guess the shop

[02:14:30] [SPEAKER_02]: keepers will well compensated for a few days let's hope i mean i always remember the port landia drama

[02:14:37] [SPEAKER_02]: where they uh the feminist bookstore they weren't compensating them for like anything and

[02:14:42] [SPEAKER_00]: they would leave it a mess i don't know if you knew about this no i yeah i wasn't in i never

[02:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: watched portlandia but no i didn't hear about that but there was also like like the game of

[02:14:52] [SPEAKER_00]: thrones ruined uh some areas of Malta that's awful yeah you gotta be respectful and you gotta be respectful

[02:15:00] [SPEAKER_00]: like they did they ruined an ecosystem because they brought in sand for the beach wedding

[02:15:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and then they couldn't get the sand out oh wow that's rough yeah let's not do that in the show

[02:15:14] [SPEAKER_00]: i would i prefer we didn't do that no i think yeah i think they're been learning um so we use

[02:15:20] [SPEAKER_02]: surprised by the man kidnapping i was but also i was glad because now he's gonna be in fall

[02:15:26] [SPEAKER_00]: moment we don't have to like hand wave about it yeah well i hope that he and ran would re-unite

[02:15:33] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah no ran was busy obviously so we got to have the fun trippy scene with him again um yeah they

[02:15:39] [SPEAKER_00]: actually released that scene today uh it's what Wednesday oh really they released it yeah so now

[02:15:46] [SPEAKER_00]: everyone's even but they don't have the the context for but i was really surprised that they released

[02:15:50] [SPEAKER_02]: that scene yeah that seems like when you want in context i don't know some of the choices on

[02:15:55] [SPEAKER_00]: the marketing are a little confusing but yeah it's alright um yeah they're teasing us with a lot

[02:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: flirting with the shadow but i'm not i mean i think Matt will play the same role that he does

[02:16:05] [SPEAKER_02]: what about you yeah yeah i don't think he's gonna go to the dark if anyone i see the the

[02:16:11] [SPEAKER_02]: person i thought would be most apt to join the dark for a period of time and come back in the

[02:16:16] [SPEAKER_02]: books was naineve because they had such a block and it was rooted in anger and i thought it would

[02:16:23] [SPEAKER_02]: have been a perfect way for one of the first seconds to say i have a way for you to channel more

[02:16:27] [SPEAKER_02]: i have a way for you to get these get this block off to get back at the i said i do this

[02:16:32] [SPEAKER_02]: to all your friends i thought she was the most susceptible to it okay i didn't yeah i always just thought

[02:16:38] [SPEAKER_02]: she was so like righteous um yeah i mean but also a lot of the forsaken were right they just

[02:16:46] [SPEAKER_00]: right yeah they could get to their ends better with the uh the dark right um so with the Matt trippy

[02:16:54] [SPEAKER_00]: scene do you think first of all how much do you think was really his past lives and how much

[02:16:59] [SPEAKER_00]: do you think was just uh isha mail messing with him um because yeah do you i'm worried the people

[02:17:06] [SPEAKER_00]: are going to worry that this is replacing flicker flicker and or replacing anything with the fins what

[02:17:13] [SPEAKER_02]: do you think oh i don't think it's gonna replace it at all i think i think it's just something different

[02:17:19] [SPEAKER_02]: with isha mail and i think it is a manipulation i'm sure there's traces of truth in it but it's

[02:17:24] [SPEAKER_02]: probably that he is um you know like using bits of truth as parts of lies right he's the father of

[02:17:33] [SPEAKER_00]: lies right right now i think so too um and i think that it's more like but we saw him hanging in

[02:17:39] [SPEAKER_00]: the mirror we've previously seen him with as i'm missing in several different alternate realities

[02:17:45] [SPEAKER_02]: i think this is just foreshadowing the fin personally yeah i did i did like the foreshadowing

[02:17:50] [SPEAKER_02]: i was actually kind of surprised that they foreshadow that is certainly although i guess it's

[02:17:54] [SPEAKER_02]: only one season only now maybe even for you episode so it's a way because they probably will do

[02:17:58] [SPEAKER_00]: that early in season three yeah or maybe he stumbles through door at the end of maybe that's the

[02:18:04] [SPEAKER_00]: hook for you know the crazy thing that shows up at the end of the season finale hmm that'd be fun

[02:18:13] [SPEAKER_02]: i like that do we get uh do we get the wound that won't heal the season you think

[02:18:20] [SPEAKER_00]: well some people are wondering if Matt you know that what we see the vision with men uh with

[02:18:27] [SPEAKER_00]: men random man whether that is linked to that hey maybe because he poisoned them with uh the

[02:18:34] [SPEAKER_00]: shadder logoth dagger yeah perhaps or it could even be that someone else has stepped him and

[02:18:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and Matt's like helping him take it out or something i don't know hmm and we know that for

[02:18:46] [SPEAKER_02]: taking can change their forums right so maybe ishamel is pretending to be Matt ishamel

[02:18:52] [SPEAKER_02]: even showed up as Matt in this episode yeah that's true although that was i guess it was a

[02:18:57] [SPEAKER_00]: loosenation but still i think i think ish he can do that but only in tell it on reoed right

[02:19:03] [SPEAKER_02]: i don't know i wonder if they'll incorporate teller on reoed as part of the sky business like

[02:19:11] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah what would be cool is if they said reflections of the dream world are in the sky right now

[02:19:17] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah that could be or i'm i was also wondering if they could just be like on a cliff and it

[02:19:22] [SPEAKER_00]: just looks that way because of the mist that shows up when the horns blown

[02:19:27] [SPEAKER_02]: ooh that would be cool too i think there's a lot of ways that he get around it i don't i'm not too

[02:19:31] [SPEAKER_02]: worried i think as long as it's not stupid it'll be fine yeah it'd be big if right

[02:19:37] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah um so i can't wait to hear how david reacts to meeting uh bane and chiaid especially

[02:19:45] [SPEAKER_02]: the demonstration of g toe yes that was super good super super good um with the

[02:19:55] [SPEAKER_02]: beating on avianic is oh yeah our friend i'd all right let's get on with it you know just very

[02:20:00] [SPEAKER_02]: matter of fact this is just business yeah and his heron goes to defender they go don't

[02:20:06] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah hello i think it's funny they just like they immediately trust him they left all their weapons

[02:20:13] [SPEAKER_00]: at his feet yeah yeah so that it looks like there's hope for gall after um the uh rave

[02:20:21] [SPEAKER_00]: jettkins a show runner he had an am a today okay and um he kind of basically implied that gall

[02:20:29] [SPEAKER_02]: might very well be coming in the future oh good we like gall he's we stand gall

[02:20:35] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah i know i'm happy for gall i wish someone had asked about a ludr though because i stand

[02:20:39] [SPEAKER_02]: her even more yeah i think she's uh she's an excellent character and i hope that she's included

[02:20:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and i really i think we've said this on a previous white tower segment but i i think that she

[02:20:49] [SPEAKER_02]: represents something unique in the story which is technology will develop in each of these ages

[02:20:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and it and it will go in cycles right right yeah i really i i like that whole plot with the

[02:21:01] [SPEAKER_00]: technology development and the whole institute that they set up i hope they do that

[02:21:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and also the way she's introduced in a very silly way but ends up being an important character you

[02:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: know rave yeah accidental lighting of fireworks yeah i mean i guess they still could meet on the road

[02:21:17] [SPEAKER_00]: next season but i don't know i'm kind of i'm trying not to get my hopes up because uh i don't know

[02:21:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and i will save we'll see um we'll see no fireworks for a wedding right yeah yeah no wedding so

[02:21:31] [SPEAKER_00]: yep um meanwhile yes speaking of uh korean uh landrin she was at the groom to be his house

[02:21:40] [SPEAKER_00]: colder than ever after the loss of her son uh she's basically like oh i remember marina that

[02:21:45] [SPEAKER_00]: age kill her um so we got the barthanas reveal but he's not dead yet and some people were wondering

[02:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: if on vera might be a dark friend i knew she wasn't and she doesn't seem to be um in the ama

[02:22:00] [SPEAKER_00]: today rave drug can said that on vera is the character who he's finds most interesting in terms of

[02:22:08] [SPEAKER_00]: stuff happening this season to set up future storylines so i'm i'm thinking she will play the role

[02:22:13] [SPEAKER_02]: coliver played in the books okay okay i like that i think that that's good i think that keeping her

[02:22:20] [SPEAKER_00]: around would be great yeah yeah i'm wondering if uh barthanas is gonna die next episode or if

[02:22:27] [SPEAKER_02]: it's just gonna be something picked up next season yeah and i kind it's he it feels a little

[02:22:35] [SPEAKER_02]: sudden what they did with barthanas i i guess they kind of hinted at it but uh i'm glad it's at least

[02:22:40] [SPEAKER_00]: out in the open now yeah exactly yeah um yeah i'm surprised i was surprised that he was going to

[02:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: go through with it but i guess you know if you go back and rewatch the earlier episodes there's

[02:22:52] [SPEAKER_00]: something sinister in a lot of his interactions uh so yeah yeah there's something creepy crawly about

[02:22:58] [SPEAKER_00]: right um and they also speaking of looking shady there was some lingering shots on joya the um

[02:23:05] [SPEAKER_00]: the bold ice at i of the gray azha so i guess they're setting up you know okay her story in

[02:23:11] [SPEAKER_00]: the books is that she kind of ends up getting tied up and ultimately killed um it's part part

[02:23:17] [SPEAKER_00]: of the tear plot so i don't know yeah i'm wondering if um they're setting that up for a for next season

[02:23:25] [SPEAKER_00]: or uh what's up with the tear plot in general because yeah we've talked about this before

[02:23:30] [SPEAKER_00]: this is supposed to be books two and three this season and it feels very book two i know i i almost

[02:23:36] [SPEAKER_02]: am questioning what they think they took from book three but i think it's mostly ran like alvia

[02:23:41] [SPEAKER_00]: no it's being introduced um yeah yeah i don't know a few other things but it's really yeah

[02:23:48] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah yeah no fail though no fail for anybody oh no yeah i was wondering if soldae i might show up

[02:23:56] [SPEAKER_00]: but it seems like too much to introduce yes so we is speaking of shady looking people we got

[02:24:01] [SPEAKER_00]: just several shots of joya um and she plays an important role in the uh tear plot where you know

[02:24:08] [SPEAKER_00]: she's she's a big dark friend there so i've got to wonder if they're setting that up for next

[02:24:13] [SPEAKER_00]: season hopefully um and then yeah we got i love the thruple democracy moment where it turns out

[02:24:21] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah uh alana's vote is equal with her waters which i think is an important character building

[02:24:26] [SPEAKER_00]: moment also interesting that um i run doesn't trust viran so i want him to sign up for the

[02:24:32] [SPEAKER_00]: black azha hunters um that would be good he's he certainly has a nose for it yeah yeah land had a

[02:24:40] [SPEAKER_00]: good arc this episode uh first week got him finally talking to rand about some sword forms even if you

[02:24:47] [SPEAKER_00]: know that's maybe that's the only nod we get to him training him but uh it was interesting of

[02:24:52] [SPEAKER_00]: course we got the iconic cat crosses the courtyard um but i was also interesting the other form

[02:24:57] [SPEAKER_00]: when rand whipped the sword over his head to take it away he land called at herendips the wing

[02:25:03] [SPEAKER_00]: which might be i'm wondering if it's a show version of herand waiting in the rushes

[02:25:08] [SPEAKER_00]: which in the um great hunt book in the finale and form um is it that's how he gets the wound

[02:25:16] [SPEAKER_00]: is he does that on purpose so that he can um you know expose himself but then get the stabbing

[02:25:27] [SPEAKER_02]: so that would be a good way to do that i think that um we we definitely need

[02:25:31] [SPEAKER_02]: i think it would be cool if it was it shemelik of him the wound because i think that that

[02:25:35] [SPEAKER_02]: that will be their initial link it's uh it's Harry Potter with the Voldemort Scarra it's

[02:25:40] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah exactly you gotta have that link to have the pacetas fine payoff yeah exactly yeah and

[02:25:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and land finally fix the most annoying discourse on twitter which is whether or not marine was

[02:25:50] [SPEAKER_00]: still she was shielded i told you um but i mean i i did not expect her to stay still at all i i

[02:25:57] [SPEAKER_02]: don't know why anybody would have seen you the books um yeah if you're only show then maybe

[02:26:03] [SPEAKER_00]: but uh the books yeah she was like and they they made it clear with the weaves um but it's

[02:26:07] [SPEAKER_00]: interesting to learn that in the show version uh tying off is a weave of legend so yeah that's

[02:26:14] [SPEAKER_02]: different because uh i guess in the in the books it's known it's just not known how to uh maybe do

[02:26:20] [SPEAKER_00]: some more complex weaves than that so i guess that's why land was asking the other a week maybe he

[02:26:28] [SPEAKER_00]: was already noodling over this because he was like it's it would you think about these weaves that

[02:26:32] [SPEAKER_00]: have then you know of legend um when when alana and co were getting really suspicious of him

[02:26:39] [SPEAKER_00]: being a dark thing so maybe he was already thinking that this is a possibility yeah i didn't

[02:26:44] [SPEAKER_00]: like that he lied to log in even though of course i want log in to go back to the tower because

[02:26:49] [SPEAKER_00]: that's where his story should take him um and of course i want him to be examined by two brown

[02:26:54] [SPEAKER_00]: sisters desperate study a man who can channel who i don't know veriner yasika or at a laus

[02:27:00] [SPEAKER_01]: oh good question uh so you think he's gonna kill at a laus maybe i don't know well i mean

[02:27:10] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of people are wondering a very mokele at a laus because she's come out of the shadow

[02:27:16] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe um yeah i'm speaking of uh people we don't want to be the bad guy yeah people are

[02:27:20] [SPEAKER_00]: not going to be happy with swan after this episode no and i think people will be questioning

[02:27:25] [SPEAKER_02]: is she working for the shadow but no she's just being an isididek yeah but i guess like if

[02:27:32] [SPEAKER_00]: this might be setting up a reason why should be deposed and still you know um and giving us a reason

[02:27:39] [SPEAKER_00]: why we might want that because will if swan is stilled the oath that she's wore with marane

[02:27:46] [SPEAKER_00]: i guess that's no long shi marane no longer has to obey her then is that true because i don't

[02:27:54] [SPEAKER_00]: because we saw both of their like they both channeled together on the oath rod to make that oath so

[02:28:01] [SPEAKER_00]: right wonder if they both need to have the power in order to hold it yeah i'm good with your logic

[02:28:08] [SPEAKER_02]: i just uh i'm not sure if they'll do it but they can't see fingers crossed i have a spying

[02:28:13] [SPEAKER_00]: or thank fingers crossed it also the way ran was crouching did it give you like box uh feelings

[02:28:19] [SPEAKER_00]: oh he's gone right in the box that's gonna happen for sure but if felt like they were intentionally

[02:28:23] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of foreshadowing it yep um yeah and viren you know i've on my suspect herb of viren

[02:28:30] [SPEAKER_00]: came through is the good guy this episode uh it was interesting that they the she is an ogier

[02:28:35] [SPEAKER_00]: map of the city to find um that way because in that's a nod to the beginning of the great hunt where

[02:28:44] [SPEAKER_00]: um they look for an ogier map uh but it turns out that the city has been rebuilt as no longer an

[02:28:50] [SPEAKER_00]: city it's interesting that they said an ogier setting once stood in the city center so

[02:28:58] [SPEAKER_00]: does that mean like a they call an ogier grove a setting in the show and there's no

[02:29:03] [SPEAKER_00]: setting with you know magic freeze zones i don't know yeah i think that's a good question because

[02:29:08] [SPEAKER_02]: are they are they conflating them and that that's an important detail because that's been used a few

[02:29:14] [SPEAKER_00]: times to do important things right right so i'm really wondering about that because there was also

[02:29:19] [SPEAKER_00]: previous AMA where uh rave judge can said we would see a steady this season and i'm like oh please tell me that's

[02:29:26] [SPEAKER_02]: not it oh yeah i hope that we don't see a setting i i mean i hope that we do see a steady and it's not

[02:29:32] [SPEAKER_00]: that yeah i thought it might be um you know the eyes without pity chapter where hopper dies but no

[02:29:38] [SPEAKER_00]: right hopper still going strong yeah um but i have a feeling hopper's gonna go out of hero in the next episode

[02:29:47] [SPEAKER_01]: you said that the last three those i know i know i'm not i'm not i'm not trying to kill hopper i love

[02:29:53] [SPEAKER_00]: hopper it's gonna be my heart but maybe it's also like waiting for the ram bandaid to be ripped off

[02:29:59] [SPEAKER_00]: so what what do you absolutely need to see in the finale i need to see the battle in this guy at

[02:30:04] [SPEAKER_02]: some point it doesn't need to be actually in the sky but i do need some kind of confrontation between

[02:30:08] [SPEAKER_02]: ran and ishi um i don't need to see ishi melde defeated you know we could see him kind of fade away

[02:30:14] [SPEAKER_02]: or you know by time that would be fun and um i want to see a resolution of the dagger thing with

[02:30:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Matt yeah i want to see a resolution of a going she's got to be freed and then i think that's

[02:30:28] [SPEAKER_02]: pretty much it i don't need to see a ton in the finale yeah why and i would love to see the

[02:30:33] [SPEAKER_00]: heroes of the horde yeah yeah and i hope uh masima pops back up i guess he's still with this

[02:30:38] [SPEAKER_00]: shunchen but i wanted to witness battle on the sky so we could get our profit era beginning

[02:30:43] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah that honestly that was an exhausting plot line for me yeah but it's gonna be cut down much

[02:30:49] [SPEAKER_00]: much yeah alright maybe maybe it'll be fine and it's important in arums as much as i don't like

[02:30:56] [SPEAKER_00]: so that turn the plot line takes it's important in it yeah but yeah i'm confident at least we know

[02:31:02] [SPEAKER_00]: that they are all like basically in foam i don't know what's up with min i hope we at least get a glimpse of

[02:31:08] [SPEAKER_00]: but the rest of them are ready for a final battle so i feel i feel good about the finale going in

[02:31:15] [SPEAKER_02]: you i feel great i think it's gonna be a great time i've been living this season not a bad

[02:31:19] [SPEAKER_02]: episode yet so let's hope that they stick for landing and we just got excited for season three

[02:31:24] [SPEAKER_02]: great yeah looking forward to it sounds good alright alisha i will see you on the next white

[02:31:30] [SPEAKER_02]: tower segment until then see you later may the light be with you the lornaun spot gas is producing

[02:31:38] [SPEAKER_02]: published by the lornaun's you can send questions feedback and voicemails at the lorhounds.com slash

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