The Wheel of Time - S03E05 - Tel'aran'rhiod

[00:00:00] The Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. In one podcast, called The Lorehounds by Some, a weekly recap with tons of analysis, two Wheel of Time superfans will lead you through a world of powerful magic, tricky prophecies, and cutthroat politics. Join me, John, and my co-host Alicia for weekly coverage of Season 3 by searching your podcast app for The Lorehounds. Dov'ye andi se tovas again.

[00:00:29] It's time to roll the dice. Hello, welcome to The Lorehounds coverage of The Wheel of Time Season 3, Episode 5, Telaranrhiod.

[00:00:58] I'm Alicia, captain of the Alana Defense Squad. And I'm John, first sister to David. For most of this episode, we will be talking about spoilers through Episode 5 of Season 3, and equivalent book stuff. Stick around until after the outro music for our White Tower Talk if you want full series book spoilers. But we will save that for the very end with a huge warning, as usual.

[00:01:25] And John, what did you think of Episode 5, Telaranrhiod? I thought it was really great. It was definitely more of a setup episode than the last episode, and that's totally fine. You know, you need these breaks between big events. But you had a lot of good character moments. I think that this was the episode of a lot of great character development. And we need that too. So I was really happy with it. But, you know, they brought a lot of plot points going faster than I thought.

[00:01:54] Like, the White Cloak plotline is going faster than I thought. Really tragic, the White Cloak plotline, in a way that's different than the way that it is in the books, but still very tragic. I like the way that they're handling the Cawthons in general, especially that weird channeling thing. And I am loving seeing more of the Aiel culture. Again, Ran's smiling. I need Ran to smile every now and then.

[00:02:22] Really fun while we're just hanging out with them. Moraine and Lan, their relationship, I feel like, is returning to a sense of normalcy where it was a little on the rocks last season. And that's cool to see. Overall, I think I'm satisfied with this episode. Not like a lot of... Oh, and the Seafolk. I should just say the Seafolk. Amazing visuals. Love the way that they portrayed their channeling. Really amazing. I think good choice to not make them all topless for TV. Right. Like they are in the books.

[00:02:52] But yeah, I think overall, really successful episode at what it's doing. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I definitely... Of course, I expected this episode. It's got to like go down a notch after the last one. You know, do some more. Check in on everyone. Do some more groundwork laying. Set up the next thing. You know, I was really excited, obviously, by the title of the episode. Teleron Riod is one of my favorite things about the entire series.

[00:03:20] So I love to see that getting explored more. And I can assure those of you who are non-readers that we are just scratching the surface at this point. And yeah, the Seafolk too. Very excited to see the Seafolk turn up. Lots of lore drops and interesting things. And I do have an issue though. Well, I mean, I think I like this episode. I think this episode, as you said, has a lot of great character moments. A lot of great moments overall.

[00:03:50] But I do think in some ways it was the sloppiest episode of the season so far. It was a little disjointed. Yeah, I mean, but also things like the fact that they were on the Seafolk ship. And they're going from, in the books, this is taken from the books, this whole thing with the Seafolk ship. But in the books, they're going from Tyr to Tanchico, which are both on the coast. So it makes sense to be on a Seafolk ship. In this case, they were coming from Tarvalon, which is inland.

[00:04:19] So when Matt said that they returned by boat from Falm to Tarvalon, I'm like, well, that's possible. But yeah, they would have taken riverboats and he said it took a month. And now somehow they're on a Seafolk ship on the open sea. And I have questions about how that's possible and where they picked up the Seafolk ship. It's a good question. And I'm okay with hand-waving that away. You know, I think after Game of Thrones, my whole, like, the geography has to make sense has just broken. Yeah.

[00:04:46] Like, they jet-packed so much in there that I'm like, eh, whatever. No, I know. It's true. It's a typical TV thing. It's just, this is the first time this season that there are a few questions like that where I'm like, hmm, that was just a little bit messy. You could have given us a line to explain that away somehow or I don't know. So, yeah. But there is a lot that I really liked in this episode. Especially, it had a very strong ending, I would say, with the whole dreamwalking sequence.

[00:05:14] Although I have morality questions about Egwene's behavior there. Yeah, right? She's just like, oh, let me just invade your brain. Yeah. No big deal. Just going to check in on your private thoughts since I can now. I can't wait for it at the end anyway. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:05:30] Isn't that a bit like, so her, obviously we'll talk about this at the end, but her popping in and finding her boyfriend making out with Len fear, isn't that a lot like in our modern day, suppose someone checks their partner's phone and they're like breaking into their phone, but then it's confirmed they are cheating on them. Like, ooh. Yeah, fair enough. Moral grays there. Dark grays. I think the phone one, you're like, mm, it's fine. Because, you know what I mean?

[00:06:00] Like, if they were cheating on you, like, be sure moral gray, but like, pretty different levels of wrong there. I don't know, because isn't like looking at someone's phone, like looking at their private thoughts? Mm, I don't know. I don't keep my private thoughts on my phone. Okay. Well, anyway, so let's get into the episode itself. It's episode five of season three, Teller on Ryoad.

[00:06:27] It was written, this one by Ajay or Adroke, credited as both. Ibrionoke? Ibriono? No, sorry. You know better than I do. Ibrionke. Yeah, sorry. I do not. I'm not. I'm sure I messed up that pronunciation. But this is a story editor on other episodes of this season. This is the only episode that they're credited for.

[00:06:54] The director of this one is Marta Cunningham, who's also directing the next episode, episode six, and has a wide variety of prior experience. Lots of stuff that I've seen that she's done. And this episode, another long one, an hour and six minutes. We're going to, as usual, be talking through the story arcs one at a time. So we're going to be discussing scenes out of order just to keep the story in order. Do you want to set up the cold open? I would love to. It's called Moraine's New Toy.

[00:07:25] Isolated at the waist, where she thinks she is not watched and can cause no harm, Moraine investigates the possibilities of the Sakarnan. The powerful Sangreel she found inside the Aventasora tree of Roydeon last episode. The extra power it grants her is vast, but we see her struggle to control it. And then struggle to stop it until Lan intervenes. He admits that he could feel the euphoria and the painful yearning through his water bond with Moraine.

[00:07:54] He asks her what she saw in the rings, and she doesn't answer. So, yeah, it's funny. I wrote here, Moraine's not allowed to talk about, with anyone who didn't go through the city, the trials in Roydeon, what she saw there. But she does definitely forget that by the end of the episode. Yes, yes. Very gorgeous effects. I mean, you can really feel her losing control there in the way that they portray the visuals.

[00:08:24] Also, I'll say I'm enjoying Rosamund Pike this season more because of her performance. I think she is not so Shakespearean. She's showing a vulnerability that's less like... I always feel like Shakespeare... The performances of Shakespearean actors in fantasy, it puts a shield in front of them, a shield in front of their emotionality. And I'm sure someone who's a big fan of Shakespearean performances is like, no, it's not a shield. Obviously not. I mean, if you're doing it well...

[00:08:53] Yeah, but to me, the formality of her speech in the previous two seasons really felt like a gate that I couldn't get through to see what she was feeling. But isn't that also how Moraine is introduced in the books? Where she's inscrutable and then as you get to know her, then you start to see her vulnerability more? But there's a warmth to it in the books. Yes and no. Depends who you ask, yeah. I think there's a warmth to it in the books. You know, the way she's like, here, take these coins from me, children. You know what I mean?

[00:09:23] Yeah. There's this level of I'm trying to connect with you in the books that has not been in the show. I think we're seeing that change now. And I'm glad that they've taken these steps to last episode especially to sort of mend that rift between Moraine and Lan. Okay, yeah. And Rand, I'm sorry. Yeah, and Lan, to be honest. That's true. Because it was annoying last season that she and Lan were on the outs the whole season. Right, right. Yeah. I have to say, I saw some behind-the-scenes clips on TikTok.

[00:09:51] And yes, I went on TikTok to see if people were making Wheel of Time stuff. But it was cool to see her, you know, obviously she's just there in the desert holding a glass ball that lights up. It lights up in her hand. But, you know, and to see this is really, obviously there's not power twisting her this way that this is really just her acting. And then they fill in the effects to match. So.

[00:10:15] Yeah, it's like Lily Rose Depp doing the Nosferatu eyes and stuff. You're like, oh, that's just you. That's just you. Yeah. Yeah. And just to remind anyone who might forget, so the crystal ball again, it is, it's called the, in the show, it's called the Sarkonnen. It's a Sa'angriol, which is a type of object made in the Age of Legends that it can look like anything. It doesn't have to be a crystal ball.

[00:10:43] But the purpose of a Sa'angriol is to magnify the power of a channeler and they're gendered. So this one is for female channelers. And we learned that Kalindor, the sword that's not a sword, is for males. And we also saw Rand in season one with that little Buddha-esque statue. That was also for males. Moraine gave that to him.

[00:11:03] And a Turangriol, in contrast, is an object of power with a specific purpose, like the archways that they tested, the crystal, the crystal columns, the rings that Moraine went through are all Turangriol. My favorite thing about Turangriol is that nobody knows what they do until they use them and they can be like terrible. So you have to be really careful. Like, will this one destroy the world? I don't know. Let's try it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:28] Because they had just all these objects from the Age of Legends, but because of the breaking, they kind of forgot what a lot of them were for. So they're like, I don't know. Just winging it. Yeah. Just winging it and seeing if it kills anyone. You know, we didn't ask this last question, but how do you think that Moraine knew that the Sarkhanan? How am I supposed to pronounce this? I thought it was Sarkhanan. I thought the R was after. Sarkhanan. Okay. You're probably right. You're probably right.

[00:11:58] Sarkhanan. Yeah. It's after. It's right before the end. Sarkhanan. I have to stop turning it into a family from Dune. How do we think that Moraine knew the Sarkhanan was in the Aventasora tree? I think you can sense powerful Sangriel in the books, at least. I think we've had that established. Rand, for example, since they're getting rid of the Code and Call, it seems like.

[00:12:26] Like, Rand senses the male statue. Mm-hmm. Meow. When he passes it, he's like staring at it. It was very cheeky of Moraine to just take it, though. It was. Very presumptuous. But, I mean, see, that's Moraine to me, right? Is like mischievous. Like, sure, she has some like properness to her being a former royal and a current Aes Sedai. But, like, there's a level of mischief I hadn't really seen until this season. Hmm.

[00:12:56] I mean, I guess, does she know that these objects were kept in safekeeping for the Aes Sedai? I mean, I guess she has an argument for why she can just do that. Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. I don't think she knows. I think she's just winging it here, like I said. Okay. Like, what if she took that out and that's like the battery for Roydeon and it just collapses?

[00:13:21] Well, later, Lan finds Moraine sitting flooringly alone by a fire holding her emotional support, Sakarnan. She tells him that she saw that she will not be at the last battle. In her visions of the rings, if she lives, Ran dies, and Lan reminds her that she's not dead yet, urging her to make the most of the moment she has left and share some Uskai with him. Would you be into the Uskai, do you think?

[00:13:50] I think so. Well, I don't know. I like whiskey. I could drink whiskey on the rocks when I was younger. I've kind of, like, I can still drink an old-fashioned, but I've kind of gone away from drinking straight liquor. How about you? Yeah, I have more of an appreciation. So, okay, Uskai is obviously an Aiel liquor. For anyone who doesn't know, it's made from a plant called Zemai, which is an anagram of maize. So, yeah, it seems to be made from corn, basically.

[00:14:19] So, yeah, it is basically like an ultra-strong whiskey. And I do, like, my dad likes a good scotch. I'll have some of that with him sometimes. Like, I'll bring him a scotch or something. But I prefer bourbon myself. This sounds, like, double-strong, though. I think, actually, Rand says at one point it's, like, double-strong bourbon. Okay. Interesting. Now, scotch is very varied, though. So, now I got to know.

[00:14:48] Because on my 25th birthday, I bought, like, a bottle of Lagavulin. Uh-huh. And I took one sip, and I was like, oh, my God, that's just wood. It's just so peaty. Oh, yeah. Like, there are non-peaty scotches, too. There's, like, plenty of – because I honeymooned in Scotland. Uh-huh. Which, by the way, great stuff, because the scotch is, like, five pounds for a drink, you know? Right. Because, you know, it's there.

[00:15:17] So, it's not – there's no import taxes and whatnot. No tariffs. Big tariff time to talk about. Where in Scotland did you honeymoon? I drove around, like, the whole thing, basically. Oh, nice. Okay. Yeah, yeah. We rented a car, and we just drove around. We did, like, a loop around the north. Both. Okay. Yeah. I do, like – if I'm going to have scotch, I do prefer – I like something that's, like, peaty or smoky or something like that. Okay.

[00:15:43] But I'm not – it's not an area of my expertise where, like, I remember all of the makers and such. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I was going to say something before that. So, Ushkwai, what varieties of that would you like? Not the variety that's made with that worm creature they eat later, which is from the books, by the way. It's mentioned in the books. We'll talk about that when we get to their meal. But – It's actually – the peat is the vendasora tree. It's a smoked vendasora tree. Mm. Hmm.

[00:16:13] Oh, they'll make you calm and chill. That sounds fun. Yeah. There we go. I don't know if the aisle really liked being calm and chill, though. Yeah. Apparently, that is not the peat. But can you imagine – so, the grub thing, Motai, I think it's called. Can you imagine, like, we, growing up, had a bottle of tequila with a worm in the bottom of it and was, like, half drunk and it was just a joke in the neighborhood.

[00:16:39] Like, even the kids would participate in this where we would hide the bottle in the neighbor's house when we, like, went over for dinner or something like that. It wasn't mezcal? Because mezcal is what usually has the worm. I mean, it's – tequila is a type of mezcal. Fair enough. But didn't – I thought it was opposite. I thought mezcal was, like, the type that had the worm. No. No. Tequila is a type of mezcal. Tequila is from Jalisco, I believe. Yeah. Well, I have chicken and egged my way out of intelligence.

[00:17:11] But anyway, yeah. Just imagine an uscoy with one of those Motai grubs at the bottom. And that's when I say, I'm a vegetarian. Lovely. You're not going to get me to drink a worm. You know, I have to call Moraine out, though. She says to Lan at this point, everything we've done is all for nothing because I won't be there. And it's like, girl, that is so self-centered.

[00:17:40] Like, if Rand is there, that's supposed to be your mission. It's not all for nothing because you are not there. But I can understand, obviously. Right. Not wanting to die. Right. Yeah. I get it. Like, you did all this work and now you're just like, well, I'm not even going to get to see it. Yeah. Yeah. That does suck. But it doesn't mean that you didn't do the work and it doesn't mean something. Yeah. It's very Harry Potter, this prophecy, isn't it? Neither shall live while the other survives.

[00:18:10] Yeah. Except Moraine and Rand are supposed to be on the same side. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Should we go to Cold Rock's Hold? Would love to. Do you want me to read it? Sorry. Moraine, Lan, Rand, Egwene, Alvienda, Ruark, Bear, and Malayne, and the other Tardad Aiel with them hiked to Cold Rock's Hold, the primary home of the Tardad Aiel.

[00:18:34] Egwene, ever the student, peppers the wise ones with questions about the Aiel. And what to expect after the revelation at Rodeon that Rand is indeed the Karakarn. They tell her that they have met with the other wise ones in the dreams, and they will try to bring their chiefs together at a place called Al-Kar-Dal to discuss this development. The wise ones say that some will accept this, but others will react the way the Shido did. Not good.

[00:19:05] They say that to begin her wise one training, Alvienda must stick by Rand's side at all times to make sure he learns their ways, despite her protests that, I cannot teach someone unwilling to learn. Yeah. Alvienda still has a lot of sass for Rand, which is fun to see, I guess. Not a huge fan, I see. And he doesn't seem to be a big fan of hers so far either. No. No.

[00:19:32] Yeah, I mean, they're both very stubborn, so that's going to rub each other the wrong way. Yeah. Al-Kar-Dal, I can say we saw glimpses of it in the trailers, for those of you who watched that. It was one of those Leo pointing me moments for book readers. Basically, it's an amphitheater, basically.

[00:19:52] It's in a bowl in the air so that they can stand on this stage in the center and talk, and it will project up to the seating around them. I like how they're like, all right, so for the season finale, you are going to have a venue. For the Cara Carn show? Yeah. Yeah. We booked the venue already, Rand. Again, for episode eight, you're going to have, I don't know if it's actually going to be episode eight.

[00:20:21] We haven't watched ahead, but it's funny. They're like, all right, so this is where this group is going to end up. I'm guessing it's the next episode, is my guess. Oh, yeah? Maybe it is. I mean, just because what else are they going to do with that plot line in the meantime? That's true. Yeah, I guess you're right. I don't know. Again, we haven't watched ahead, so who knows?

[00:20:39] I do know that, so in the books, after Rand comes out of Rodean, he has this bad interaction with the Shido, with specifically the wise one, Savannah, and Kuladine, who is the brother of, you know, the guy, Muradine, who went into the columns and died there.

[00:21:01] So they were really unhappy to see Rand come back, marked as the Karakarn, and they basically rejected accepting him. And so we just kind of, we got this offhand reference in this conversation that Egwene's having with the wise ones, that this did happen in the show world too. We didn't see it on screen.

[00:21:20] And I think the reason we didn't see it on screen is Rafe Judkins said in, and inside the episode about this, he said that basically at the end of episode four, he had all these scenes written, you know, like stuff from the books. But then when they were there filming, he was like, you know what? It's just more powerful to have this silent moment where Rand carries Muradine out and they all share this final look. And I don't know, I'm with him on that one. Yeah, I would agree. Yeah.

[00:21:49] I like when they make calls like that on set where they're like, all right, this feels right. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I would have loved to have seen more Savannah and more, yeah, just the setting that up, you know, on screen rather than off. But these are the decisions you have to make when you have a show in a limited amount of time. And I'm sure she'll be involved with this big summit. Yes, of course. Yeah, definitely.

[00:22:16] We can expect to see Savannah and Guladin there. And yeah, Bear's mentality, she's not like, rah, rah, rah, the Karakarn is here. She's like, welp, he's the Karakarn. It's confirmed now. There's no changing it. So let's just try to make this go as smoothly as possible and, you know, save as much of this remnant of remnants as we can of the IO.

[00:22:40] It is a pretty crazy thing of like, you are hoping for the coming of this person that will like, it is almost like, it is almost like the book of Revelations, right? Like, oh, we're going to save a piece of humanity, but the rest is going to die. And you're like, let's hope for this to happen. You're like, hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a good parallel, actually. I think it's exactly like that. Yeah. Well, there are some people who seem excited to see Rand.

[00:23:05] The group enters Cold Rock's Hold to a chorus of encouraging cries and we meet Leon, roof mistress of Cold Rock's Hold and the sister wife of Bear. As they learn Aiel dining customs, the wetlanders are surprised to see polyamory in full force amongst the Aiel as it's not so common on the greener side of the spine of the world. Prudes. I've never been accused of being a prude. No, not you.

[00:23:33] So we are actually, this week's lore cast is going to be all about Aiel relationships, both political and personal. But of course, we want to run through the terms that were brought up in the show here. So, okay. Sister wife. I guess that's probably clear, right? I would think so. There's whole shows about that stuff. Yeah. Literally called sister wife, right? Well, I don't watch that one, but I've watched seeking sister wife. And that is a fantastic train wreck.

[00:24:03] Okay. Actually, I watched a really good short film. I think it's called sister wives. It was just, yeah, it was a short film that came out this past year. You can find it on, on YouTube. You'll probably recognize the cast. They're pretty well-known faces. But anyway, yeah, I won't spoil it. It's only like 20 minutes long, but yeah, it's, it's basically, they are married to the same husband, in this case, Ruark.

[00:24:28] But they also have their own kind of relationship going as we see, you know, Bear also greets Leanne with a kiss. Right. At least in the book version. That was sort of glossed over. I mean, sorry, at least in the TV show version. That was sort of glossed over in the books, but you know, we've already discussed that. Robert Jordan took with him some 20th century sensibility, let's say. Yeah.

[00:24:53] And he came out later and was like, and he basically, he said some of those things, like, of course, the pillow friends. He's like, yes, the pillow friends is what it seems to be suggesting. And he basically confirmed there are some, a lot of the things that feel queer were intended that way. But in a sort of like wink, wink, it's the 90s off the page way. He was ahead of his time, but also a product of his time, right?

[00:25:19] Like he was pushing the boundary of what, like Tolkien would have never written anything close to this. No. But at the same time, he had to like keep with like the acceptable level of queerness. I mean, I'm sure that also has to do with his military background too. Well, that's what I should say. It's both the, to get it published, but also like in his own head, he's like, well, I can't go that queer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm yeah.

[00:25:46] So, um, and it is, he does have a tendency with like a lot of his societies to have this sort of strong matriarchal bent, but then in a way that's, well, I find my biggest issue with the books is that they're too gendered. And, uh, the aisle is, is a huge example of that, but he tries to make it equitable, but in a way that sometimes feels, I don't know.

[00:26:12] So for instance, for example, uh, the aisle, the women own all the property and that's why the, you know, the wife of Ruark is called the roof mistress of cold Harbor because she is, you know, in every house has their own roof mistress. The wife owns the wife. And we saw that Ruark even has to ask permission to enter his wife's house. Um, but then once they're out and about, it's like the, there, the men are usually in charge.

[00:26:41] Of course we have the maidens of the spear, but overall it's, it's generally the men, uh, doing everything outside of their holds. So in a way it's like, oh yeah, doesn't that feel equitable? But then it's also like, as long as the women stay at home. Yeah. It's there, there are a lot of weird things like that. The, I think he, he tried to add matriarchal elements to some parts of these societies and then others. He's just like kind of falling back on the, the patriarchy that he knows. Uh, yeah.

[00:27:09] Like I said, like he's trying to push boundaries of his time, but he's also a product of it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, and for the I yield, it's also that, um, bloodlines like closeness of blood connections is counted through the matriarchal side. So we hear, for example, here, there's a young girl who runs up, who says great father to Ruark and he calls her great daughter.

[00:27:34] And basically that means that he is her maternal grandfather. So that is, uh, his daughter is her mom. And I don't, in the books, like, I don't even know if they really acknowledge much through the paternal side. Like they're more likely to acknowledge their spouse's mother's parents than their father's parents as close relations.

[00:28:05] You're losing me. Yeah. That's why we're going to have a whole episode about this, but basically just, uh, yeah, the importance of familial relationships is, is counted through the female side. So through your mother is, is a stronger relationship than through your father. Right. Um, what do you, what did you think about the kid? Did the kid add or detract from this episode for you? I thought it was good. I thought, you know, again, seeing Rand laugh and like play with a kid.

[00:28:35] Great. Do it. Do it. We need some light in Rand. He's the dragon reborn. He can't just be mopey and dark and whiny all the time. Yeah. Yeah. I did have the feeling that this was to show Rand is good with kids. Which is fine. Like, cool. Do it. No, I mean, it makes sense. Uh, kid actors are always hit or miss, but, um, I, yeah, it makes sense. And, you know, she was cute. Yeah.

[00:29:01] What did you think of the look of cold rocks hold both outside and inside? I thought it was good. I, I could never, I'm very bad at visualizing geography, which is like my wife will always joke and remind me that I lost the car on the first day. Like I was like, why did it park? Um, and, uh, so, so I'm just bad at geography in general. So every time I see a visualization, I'm like, that's very cool. That's not what I pictured because I don't picture anything really. Uh, like I do visualize when I read, but for some reason, like places I'm like, what?

[00:29:32] Okay. Okay. Yeah. I have, I'm, I'm a very visual person. And when I read, um, yeah, indeed, I get, I have very strong visions of it. And I have to say this looks pretty much exactly like what was in my head. So I was really happy to see them. Well, first of all, from the outside, it looks like a pile of rocks with just like an archway at the top to kind of mark that there's something special there. Um, but inside it looks pretty much exactly. Yeah.

[00:29:57] Like what it was in my head, you know, these, these stone homes carved into the stone of the landscape. Cold rock. Yeah, exactly. Oh, but the siege in dune part two looks so good. Um, but yeah, speaking of stealing from Arab cultures, they, uh, we note, they note here that you're supposed to eat with your right hand, which is definitely something that's a

[00:30:26] thing in, in Arab and Bedouin cultures because your left hand is used for cleaning up after the potty. Oh. Um, yeah, I already, uh, mentioned the motai, that crispy grub from the waist. Uh, it seems to be, the grub seems to be inspired by this witchetty grubs from the Australian outback, uh, which are, if you look at a picture of them, they are fat and juicy and no thank

[00:30:55] you, but I'm sure there's good protein in there. Uh, and it may be the name motai comes from Indian languages. For example, in Nepali, motai means thickness, fatness, or corpulence. Hmm. I'm not eating grubs, Alicia. Stop trying to convince me. Hmm. You can have mine. Especially after Malin says to Lan, or sorry, Malindra says to Lan, not with the head, it's going to bite your throat the whole way down.

[00:31:25] Like, are they eating these grubs alive? It's a good question. What, what was, weren't we watching something recently and they were like, oh, you could feel the, the, uh, legs just like tickle your throat. Ooh. Yeah. Did we watch this recently or is this a book I read? I'm not sure. I don't, I'm definitely have seen. Yeah. I cannot remember. Somebody write in. Tell me what piece of media that's from. I just watched old boy for the first time recently.

[00:31:54] And I'm not, I'm not even going to bring it up, but it's genuine animal rights. Uh, anyway. Um, yeah. But in the book, they describe these motai as sweet and crunchy. It was the rings of power. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I just realized. Okay. No, that was the, the, the Harfuts teaching the stranger how to eat bugs. Right. Right. Very similar. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um, but yeah, because the books call them sweet and crunchy, I always assumed they were cooked, but I don't know.

[00:32:24] You never know. You never know what the aisle. Hmm. Um, and we get more bonding between Malkiri born maiden of the shield, Melindra and Lan and Melindra apparently remembers Malkir better than Lan. How old is she? She's older than him. That's a good question. I guess. When did she join the aisle? Yeah. She has to be older than him because she remembers it. Yeah. I mean, I don't, she's a maiden of the spear, so she must not be able to channel. Right.

[00:32:53] Why? Well, I mean, I mean, make her stop being a maiden. Yeah. They probably would make her stop. Um, although I don't know if they have to make everyone who can channel into a wise one. Um, I think so. I don't, I don't think that there's any example. There'll be a lot of people. I mean, I don't think it's that many people who can channel. We're going to agree to disagree on this one. All right.

[00:33:19] Well, well, until they define it further or right in from home because I know I'm, I'm pretty sure I'm, I'm right on this one. That there's just, it's, it's a low percentage of people who can channel in general in the world. Maybe I'm just biased because we mostly follow channelers in these books. Yeah, that's true. That's true. But yeah, I'm wondering what's, what's Melindra's timeline. When did she join the IO? Yeah.

[00:33:47] Should we take a quick break here and then, uh, come back and check in on the tower? Let's do it.

[00:34:13] And we're back with the black Aja trap in the white tower, Alida, red sister, and until recently advisor to the queen of Andor barges into the Amalur's office. She and Swan exchange barbs about Swan's tyrant decor and Alida's pungent rose perfume. And then Swan asks where Elaine is noting her brothers are also missing. Swan assures her that Elaine is safe and off on a task Swan herself center on.

[00:34:43] Alida says that everyone can see how hard Swan is failing. So she's going to go ahead and call for a vote in the hall to agree to cage dragon. Swan responds. Basically, I beat you last time you pulled this bitch. So bring it. So Alida turns the topic to Moraine calling Swan out for her crush on her as a novice. Sure that they must still be corresponding today. She calls Swan river trash, drops a curtsy instead of a mic and stalks out.

[00:35:14] So, yeah, I assume by the way that the scene opens with Swan's caressing and smelling a letter. I'm guessing that was a letter from Moraine. So indeed still corresponding, but, um, yeah, they, these two ladies do not like each other. Nope. Nope. And, and, uh, this was the thing in the book too, that like everyone had pretty much forgotten that she and Moraine were an item from their novices, except Alida was like, I'm going to hold on to that for later.

[00:35:40] Cause she's very political and conniving and is like going to always remember any kind of possible weakness. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And also this references that, uh, Alida taught Swan when she was a novice, which was also true in the book. She was, um, giving classes to Swan and Moraine, but as you pointed out, she wasn't actually that much older than them in the books. Whereas here, it seems like she, she is a bit older. Yeah. And that makes sense. I mean, even, even accepted can give classes to novices. Right. That's true. That's true.

[00:36:09] And yeah, Alida definitely doesn't like how the power dynamics have changed since then. No, she does not. So Swan can't lie, but could she possibly really think that Alaine is safe on this mission? Uh, maybe she's like, she's still on a boat. She's probably safe right now. That's true. That's true.

[00:36:31] Uh, and, uh, Alida also points out that, um, Alaine's brothers are missing and we did, we didn't mention this, but we did see in episode three that they overheard Alaine and Nynaeve talking about Tanchiko when they were trying to figure out where Leandra might be. So they've heard the name Tanchiko. That's interesting. I wonder if they're going to show up there. I genuinely don't know they're changing things in this. Right. Right. No, exactly. No, we don't know. That was, it's just a hint that was dropped.

[00:37:01] Yeah. And so Viren Sedai is taking care of her familial sister Adelaus, who is also an Aes Sedai sister, uh, in their brown Aja quarters. Adelaus is having trouble forming words after the mind wipe from Naomi, but she is still sharper than she seems. But Swan and Leanna stopped by to discuss the Black Aja hunt. And Viren says that by her calculations, there must still be at least one member of the Black Aja left in the tower.

[00:37:31] So yeah, Viren reminds us again how the Black Aja is structured. There's hearts of three sisters each and each sister has one contact outside of their own heart. But Leandrin seems to have been a bit further up on the hierarchy. And so she could connect four hearts, which means there would have been at least 12 Black Aja sisters. Um, and only 11 of them exposed themselves in the Black Aja uprising.

[00:37:58] So that means there must be at least one still around. Hmm. Hmm. Who is it? Who is it? Well, we can't speculate. Yeah. That's the one, that's the one negative of having two book readers is we just cannot genuinely speculate. Right. I mean, just saying like, yeah, that makes sense. That is, uh, that's good math. And I think it's good. She said at least. Yeah.

[00:38:27] Um, do you want to set up what happens next? I would love to. Alida arrived after Leandrin left and she is their primary object of suspicion at the moment. They decide to let it leak to Alida that they've captured two Black Aja members, Joya and Amiko, and are keeping them in the 13th Depository. Adelaus helps them feed that information to Alida, who underestimates Adelaus in her current condition.

[00:38:54] And Alida goes to confront Amiko and Joya, but not as a member of the Black Aja, as a member of the Red Aja, whose purpose is to hunt down and extinguish all misuse of the power. She kills Amiko when it's clear she won't talk and strings Joya up in ropes of the power, telling her this is not a negotiation. She will tell her who the other Black sister is that she knows of.

[00:39:15] But the Jai Kim Keratin gray man, who we saw Mo Gideon make at the end of episode one, sneaks in and kills Joya before she can speak the name and then stabs Alida as well. Swan and Liana rush in, taking out the gray man and healing Alida. Swan apologizes to Alida for misjudging her. She knows now that Alida is not a member of the Black Aja herself. So there we go.

[00:39:42] That's the point that you and I, whenever we've talked about, you know, Marilyn saying like, are all nasty people dark friends? And I know the first person to pop into both of our heads is Alida. Exactly. She's the worst and she is not evil. Yeah. Well, she's not a dark friend. She's not a dark friend. She's not sworn herself to the dark. She, but she is still an asshole. And it's true of the real world, right?

[00:40:09] That like many people do bad things in, in favor of what they believe is a good cause. Right. Yeah. And just to point out that, um, even though she does is still bound to the Aes Sedai oaths, because she's not a member of the Black Aja, she can kill Amiko and Joya because they are dark friends. And the oaths say you cannot harm someone who is not a dark friend, but dark friends are fair game. Exactly. Exactly. Once you know they're a dark friend or they're trying to hurt you, uh, as a last resort technically.

[00:40:39] But I think they omitted that from the, uh, uh, show oaths. What? The, uh, the self-defense part? Yes. Well, self-defense as a last resort, it says. Oh, okay. Uh, and you're like, oh, I think they eliminated that from the show so that it's not like that arguable. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's also, you know, the fact that they amped up, we get to see a lot more in this episode particularly, but overall we see a lot more battle Aja stuff from Alana.

[00:41:05] And, um, in the books, they kind of, because of these oaths are hamstringing them and they don't really have much to fight, you know, in a battle kind of way. Um, the green Aja has just become kind of like the hedonistic Aja that's just lounging around with their extra warders. Focus on your own pleasure, Egwene. That's my advice. Advice. That scene always, like, when Egwene goes, I was asking about the weave.

[00:41:34] It always gets me. Oh, what did you think of, uh, I'm a little bit sad to lose Amako and Joya, especially Amako was kind of fun, actually, when she was revealed as a dark sister. I thought it was fine to get rid of them. You gotta start. Oh, I mean, of course, of course. It makes sense. And, you know, and also, um, they do, um, they do. They are killed in the books when they're held in captivity, but then it's sort of, uh, it happens in the middle of the night.

[00:42:02] So this was a much more dramatic TV interpretation, but I think it's a good one. Right. I like the way that they, you know, early on confirmed that a light is not a dark front. So you're not like constantly like, what's going on? Um, and yeah, you go, oh, she's not evil. She's just dumb. She's just extremely misguided. Yeah. Misguided is a better word. I think she's a, she's a clever cookie, sometimes too clever. And it makes her, I don't know.

[00:42:32] She has, we don't really get that much backstory from a light in the books. I wonder if they will flash that out. A la Leandrin. Yeah. And you're right. She's not dumb. Like she, she can plot really well. It's just, it's just, she, I think she has a lot of hubris, which really, uh, I've been reading a lot of Greek mythology lately. So hubris is on the mind. That's like a big theme they love. And that I think is the biggest flaw with a Lida. For sure. Yeah. No, she couldn't see that.

[00:43:00] But, uh, and, and Vera knew to said, uh, you know, she was like, she's going to underestimate my sister. So I'm going to make my sister. And she obviously told, um, Adelaus, she said, when you smell the rose perfume, then tell the secret. Cause Adelaus is like, no, can't tell, can't tell. Roses. Can tell. Can tell. Yeah. That's so funny. Um, so by the way. I didn't pick up on that. So good catch. Yeah.

[00:43:28] Uh, another thing that a lot of people didn't pick up on is that you can play where's Waldo, Waldo with the gray men this season. So season one, you can play where's Waldo with Pat and Fane, who's often lurking in the background. Uh, this season, apparently no one has yet found all the times that the gray man is on screen in the first episode. Like the gray man was on screen six or seven times. Oh, wow. Yeah. Like six times before we finally saw him at the unstaffed nine Eve.

[00:43:56] And so now that's a fun, uh, game for rewatches is see if you can spot the gray men because the, you know, obviously the gray men popped up a couple of times before darting out of the shadows to kill joy. Uh, and you could just see him like become more and more obvious as the, as that went on. That's really fun. And when I have time to rewatch something, I will, I will try to play that with, uh, with, with Andor and last of us coming up.

[00:44:26] It's not going to be soon. Oh, well, I mean, the rewatching wheel of time is my hobby. So fair enough. Um, I also want to point out that we briefly see Alida trying to make an alliance with the white Aja sister Alviaren, uh, in the beginning of this scene. So we last saw Alviaren at Egwene's accepted test in episode one, and we're just telling you she's a character in the book. So worth paying attention to.

[00:44:54] Um, she says, reminding us all the white Aja's only constant ally is reason and logic. Yawn. You did that in a real Siri voice. Or, or was it a Miss Casey voice? Oh, you're right. You're right. I see what you're doing there. Uh, my brain has already moved on from severance recorded the recorded the last episode three days ago and it's already over.

[00:45:23] Well, yeah, that's, uh, I'm hoping that everyone's like, look, look at wheel of time. Now. Did you see episode four? It was awesome. I hope so. I hope so. We're, we're going to convince David eventually to watch the show. Yes. Yeah. Well, I think I want to hear his thoughts on the cinematography this season. It is very good. Particularly for episode four, of course. Yeah. Do you want to take us to the Seafolk ship? The Seafolk ship.

[00:45:51] Nynaeve, Elaine, and Matt traveled Tanchico by ship. Matt not realizing that Min has followed them and is staying in a cabin next door. But the Aes Sedai he's traveling with are forbidden. Aes Sedai. Come on loosely. Uh, according to the terms of their passage to leave their cabin during the voyage. However, with all of them going stir crazy, which Elaine's constant Tanchico tour guide mode isn't helping. And Nynaeve, especially suffering from seasickness.

[00:46:21] They disobey their orders and make a break for the deck to get some fresh air. There they meet the Raker's sailmistress, Quain. Quain? How do you say it? How are you saying this? I mean, I guess Quain. Yeah. Or is it Quina? Like half. Oh, good question. Because we didn't hear them say. These are names from the credits and these are names from the books. So this is definitely their names. But we didn't hear them say their names out loud, did we? I don't think so. So we'll find out.

[00:46:49] Quina, I'm going to say for now, Din Jubai, Wild Winds, and her sister windfinder, Joran Jin Jubai, White Wing. They like to make the solid landers trip up over their names. You know what? Robert Jordan, this is your fault. And they learned the Seafolk secret of fast travel. Their windfinders are actually channelers with a specialty in wind and weather control.

[00:47:17] Ensuring the wind is always in their favor. Afraid that the Aes Sedai will steal their best windfinders, they throw them off the scent by sending weaker channelers to train at the White Tower. So that the Aes Sedai think the Seafolk just aren't very gifted in this talent. This is why Aes Sedai traveling on Seafolk ships, the rare times that it's allowed, are commanded to stay in their cabin so that they can't see the windfinder weaves.

[00:47:43] Sailmistress Queen makes them promise not to tell the tower about their windfinders. So, yeah, I do have to say Queen was very chill about them breaking the deal not to stay in their cabin. And she's like, fine, you can stay on deck because this stupid mountain woman can't learn to give herself into the sea. Yeah, I actually thought it was a little too chill. I was like, I don't, I kind of don't buy that, you know?

[00:48:13] Yeah, I mean, this was where I can see that this is an important sequence in the books because it starts to bring the Seafolk more into the story and we're starting to learn more about them now. So I'm glad that they kept this scene. But indeed, how did they take the ship from Tutanchico, if not from Tyr? Seafolk don't run river boats.

[00:48:37] And this definitely doesn't look like a river plus Elaine referenced wind biters finger, which is on the map for the Westlands. And it's like it's like at the turn of the coast from where it goes from south to, you know, the western coast. So off that corner there is where wind biters finger is. So somewhat they were really far down south, apparently, according to the map. So they're asking too many questions. I know, but the show is usually so good about this.

[00:49:06] So I'm like, what happened there? Anyway. What happened is they needed to get them somewhere and that's what they did. Yeah. I'm definitely all for them toning down the toplessness that would have just been distracting and felt gratuitous on screen. I mean, Robert Jordan does a lot of gratuitous nudity of women in his book. Like, he's like, well, the women go to Rodeon. Yeah. Anytime there's a test, the women need to be naked. Yeah.

[00:49:36] But not the men. The men can wear their clothes. Like, if he did both, I'd be like, okay, you have to be like purified, whatever. Fine. But then he does like, but the men are fine. Yeah. Yeah. So this ship must be called the Wave Dancer, though. They didn't say so, but it must be because that's the ship that's run by Sailmistress Koine and Windfinder Jorin is her sister.

[00:50:07] So we've got more secret channelers. So we have the Aes Sedai are having their minds blown because Egwene and Moraine just found out that the wise ones include channelers. And now Elaine and Naini found out that the Windfinders have stronger channelers. Sorry, that the Seafolk have stronger channelers than they thought. And now Egwene knows, too, because she was spying at the end. Hubris. Hubris.

[00:50:35] Hubris is these Aes Sedai think that they have a monopoly on channeling and they do not. Yeah. They do not. They do not. And it was also, I liked the response where Elaine's like, why would you not want to study at the tower? And she says, there are many ways to be a channeler, many ways to be a woman. And Naini is like getting some truths spoken to her on this whole trip. Naini was like, teach me your ways. No, actually, I think Elaine was more teach me your ways. Naini was just like, huh. Yeah.

[00:51:05] Yeah. She's, she's like, I'm listening. I'm listening. Keep going. But okay. How does Queen, she is the sail mistress. I don't think she's a channeler herself. She's not in the books at least. So how does she know that Naini can't touch the source? And why she, she drops the truth to Naini as well. Channeling is like the sea. It can't be controlled.

[00:51:25] It flows whether you want to or not, which is again, like calling back to how she said Naini was planting her feet too firmly, trying to always be in control, which is so very Naini. Well, I think that's the point of why she knows is, is she's guessing, but it's an educated guess based on her refusal to submit to the sea, you know, refusal to ride the wave is the reason she can't embrace the source.

[00:51:50] And I'm sure she's worked with enough channelers to like hear over here, the, the, you know, you have to like submit yourself to side are to control it. You know, it's, it's, uh, I, I feel like it was, it was, it made sense to me. It read right to me that she's like, well, you, you are so tight fisted that you can't grab hold of this. Yeah. No, that makes sense. She's giving Naini of good advice and Naini very much wants to hear, but how does she know?

[00:52:17] We can, I'm, I'm just going to headcanon it that her sister talks about this stuff with her. So she knows. Yeah. And like I said, I think she's worked with enough channelers that she's like, she probably has heard a lot of this stuff going on where they, they probably say like, Oh, it's a lot like the sea. Right. And so she's like, yeah, I know this shit. All right. Yeah. I guess that makes sense. I have to say the channeling again, very pretty, very pretty channeling this episode. Um, and we get a reminder that deals with the sea folk are not meant to be broken.

[00:52:45] Although this one seems pretty easy to break. Uh, but we last heard about the sea folk spoken when Moraine was meeting with that guy, Doman Bale, who, um, Bale Doman, sorry, who John and I both really like. Uh, but he do be talking like he's an Illyana. Uh, I still have hope he'll show up this season since they're on the coast. He do be do be do. Yeah. He's a river boat captain.

[00:53:14] Um, but he and Moraine were talking about, again, the sea folk are known for making deals. They're tough negotiators and, uh, you don't want to cross them is, is the way it usually is understood. The trick to dealing with them is you got to throw up on their boat and they're like, I don't want to deal with this anymore. They're like, well, we don't want that in the cabin. That's a lot of cleaning.

[00:53:38] Um, and Queen also calls Elaine out as wanting to be taken off the path that's been chosen for her. So it's interesting because we just saw Elaine a couple episodes ago trying on her mother's crown. And now we're hearing that she's conflicted about that. Right. Yeah. I think she does what a lot of young people do, which is like, what do I want to be? Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Do you want to talk about Matt and Min?

[00:54:09] Matt and Min. Now on deck, Matt notices Min sneaking around. He's happy to see her asking if he can hang out in her room to get a break from the Wonder Girls. There, Matt, Min scurries to put away drawings she's made of her visions. But Matt finds the one of him hanging in front of a twisted red frame doorway, which we saw her view before they left the tower in episode three. She says she's followed Matt trying to figure out a way to stop this vision from happening.

[00:54:37] Uh, Matt points out that Min's visions are misleading. After all, he didn't really kill Ran last season as her vision suggested. So he's sure this one will turn out okay as well. Matt introduces Min to the Wonder Girls as they pull into Tanchico's port. Elaine recognizing her as the servant spy from the tower and Nynaeve recognizing her as the seer from the bar in Fal-Dara at the end of season one.

[00:55:06] Min tells him, Min tells them she also has beef with Leandrin and Matt promises she can be trusted. So she joins the group. Next time we see them, they will be in full Black Aja hunting mode. So I have never identified with somebody more than when Elaine was dropping that knowledge about Tanchico at the beginning. She says there's three hills in Tanchico Bay and the wealthy usually live on the top of the hills.

[00:55:33] But the lack of monetary stability leads to a lot of street crime. And Nynaeve's like, none of that will help us find the Black Aja. And I'm like, bitch, I strongly beg to differ. Travel 101. Elaine for Khan, welcome to the Lorehounds. Travel 101 is learn the peculiarities of your surroundings to learn, you know, how to make the most of your time there and also with whom to make friends and how. You have to learn this stuff. I think you're right. I think you're right. You should have been coaching them.

[00:56:04] Yeah. I mean, yeah. Elaine, it's funny because I wouldn't say I necessarily ever identified with her in the books, but it was always a Gwaine and then later Moraine identified with more. But in the show, I'm really like, you know what? Elaine's right about everything. She's been good. So I actually like Elaine in the books. There's obviously that one really problematic scene that they're probably going to write out of the show. But overall, I thought she was a good politician.

[00:56:31] I thought it was interesting, like the advice that she gave to Rand. I don't know why she got so much hate. Well, I know the one reason she got so much hate, but again, I don't think that's going to happen. Yeah. I mean, in the books, she's written with a lot more maturity. At this point from the jump in the show. Whereas in the books, she was quite immature to start. I do love the line she says to Matt. She's gotten a lot of the best lines this season. She says, what's your plan then? Drink yourself into a stupor and then ask for directions in the old tongue?

[00:57:02] That's honestly fair. Yeah. I think even his face was like, yeah, that's honestly fair. But they point out that they know Leondrin's last name is Gurali, but it might not be her real full name. I guess it's probably her maiden name because we know the wedding she interrupted a couple episodes and the house they stole was from the Lenult family. So that's probably the name they need to find to find her.

[00:57:30] Like they're not going to find Gurali, but if they found Lenult, they would find that house. But they don't know that, of course. Right. They're going to have to do some detective work to figure out what, you know, a hundred years ago. How old is Leondrin? That's the question, first of all. I guess pretty old because her son just died at like, it looked like 80 or something. Right. That's true. So she's probably like a hundred or so, which makes sense. Yeah. Thankfully, they have Min who knows her way around San Chico and emphasizes the dangers there.

[00:58:00] But so does this make Matt and Min wonder girls as well? I think so. It's like the Derry girls, right? You have the one male Derry girl. I think Matt can be a Wonder Girl now. Yeah. Well, I think it fits. I'm happy with that development. As long as we find out what that vision that Min had is all about. Cryptic, cryptic, cryptic.

[00:58:26] That and I forgot about the him killing Rand thing or at least stabbing Rand. Should we take a quick break here and then come back and check in on the two rivers? Yeah. Here we go.

[00:58:59] Okay. Let's talk about some white cloak warmongering with first Alana Sedai and her surviving warder, Maxim, struggle to adjust to country life, especially once Maxim figures out that the hot baker doesn't even have nice buns. But when Fael rides into town to warn Perrin that there are white cloak reinforcements coming through the mountains, that they better rescue the Cawthons before they arrive. Alana and Maxim join the cause.

[00:59:26] And, yeah, I just wanted to pause to point out here that Maxim mentions a coastal city called Ebudar, which is in the country of Altara, which we talked about in our geography episode for those who have access to the Larkast. And so he mentions it as a coastal city and a shopping destination, which I think is maybe seeding it as an important location in future seasons. What do you think?

[00:59:55] I plead the fifth on that one because... Well, we can say it's a location in the books, but we speculated they might move the stuff that happened there to another place, like combined with Tear or something, just to whittle down the number of locations. But the fact they're mentioning it, I don't know. That's either just a nod for book readers or they're seeding it as like, remember, this city exists. You'll see it. Yeah.

[01:00:20] And I think it would be interesting to see, again, another city if they can make it distinct from Tangiko because there are some similarities. They're like, just very dangerous city. You know what I mean? It's not like... I know that the rest is supposed to be different and whatnot, but yeah. Yeah. That's true. Both are kind of stabby in certain areas, at least. The non-wealthy areas. Yeah. Yeah. So we have this whole sequence.

[01:00:48] This is kind of like the most intense sequence with the white cloaks of the episode. So it's a longer recap. Shall we take turns recapping? In the white cloak camp that night, questioner Eamon Valda informs fellow white cloak Dane Bornhold that their reinforcements will arrive the next day and the day after they will be ready to march on the two rivers.

[01:01:10] They think to root out the shadow that gave birth to enemies such as Perrin A. Barra. Natty Cawthon and her two daughters are still locked in a cage. Dane tries to interrogate them gently about Perrin's whereabouts until he notices Natty is trying to pickpocket his key to their cage. He flies into a rage and one of the girls throws out a blast of the one power instinctively.

[01:01:36] To protect her daughters, Natty claims that she was the one who did it and she is taken away and handed over to Valda. Perrin, Fael, and crew reach the white cloak camp. The plan is that Perrin, the two A'il, Bane and Chiad, and Fael, who insists, will sneak into the white cloak camp. Loyal will mind the horses as Ogier aren't equipped for stealth.

[01:02:00] And the group insists that Alana stay behind as well, ready if anyone needs healing, since Aes Sedai are especially in danger from white cloaks. But Alana insists she will help them by giving them a cover of fog for their sneaking. Alone, Alana and Maxim bicker over her stubbornness and secrecy. She finally tells him she came to the two rivers because it's a place that produced a remarkable number of super strong channelers.

[01:02:26] And she's looking for more potential sisters to join the green Aja so that they have a real army to fight in the looming last battle. Maxim's big mad at Alana by this point. So he declares he's going off on his own to find Leandrin and kill her for killing Ivan. And Alana shields their bond so that they can't feel each other for a while.

[01:02:51] Alana continues on, creating the promised cover of fog so that the others can sneak into the camp where they find the girls alive and rescue them, but also find the burned body of their mother, Natty Cawthon, and heads of wolves on stakes around the campfire. Perrin confronts Dane on his way out of the camp, saying he thought he was a good man, and Dane saying he was, until Perrin killed his father. Perrin and Chiad have already slipped out of camp with the Cawthon girls,

[01:03:21] and Perrin and Fael fight their way out to join them, Fael throwing a dagger into Dane's shoulder that takes him down. But Valda is suspicious of the fog, and he leads a team to trace it to its source, putting a bunch of arrow bolts into her. Into Alana. As she takes out a bunch of their number. Finally, Alana collapses and is cornered, but Maxim returns just in time. Alana had instinctively turned the bond back on while she was fighting the White Cloaks,

[01:03:50] so he knew she needed his help. Together, they take out the last of the White Cloaks that were attacking Alana. And I missed, where did Valda go in all this? I don't know. You're right. I don't know where he went in this. Okay. Who knows? So I don't know if it's considered a spoiler. I would say book readers know which one of the sisters can channel. Yeah. That is definitely from the books.

[01:04:19] But I think it was clear even in the show that it was not the mother, right? It was one of the sisters. Right. Yeah, because they shared a look after it happened, and she clearly, Natty, was like, no, take me, take me. Yeah, it was definitely not her. Yeah. Dane really walking the moral line here. Like, he won't let Valda question the Cawthons until that whole channeling thing happens, but then clearly he's much closer, much more ready to cross the line.

[01:04:47] What do you think of Dane this season? It is much easier to feel anger than grief, and Dane is going into anger. And unfortunately, he is in a position of power in which he's abusing people based on that anger. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like he still wants to have a line, but you can see they're styling him to look a lot more unhinged this season. Right. They gave very tidy hair last season, and yeah. And they introduced him earlier in the show than they did in the books,

[01:05:17] and they added the relationship between him and Perrin, which was nice. I think this is shaping up to be a good storyline. Yeah. Yeah. So, Natty's death is new for television. She doesn't die in the books like this. So, that was sad, but also I understand that they do need to make some deaths real and get rid of some of the vast cast of characters. Yeah. But I wish they had done that

[01:05:44] and not completely defamed Daddy Cawthon last season, or two seasons ago. But right now, he's helping the Ibarra's escape, so he's on his redemption arc. I guess. But I just don't think you needed to go that far with him being like, oh, this guy's awful. Again, the Game of Thrones-ification of the show, something I've complained about, that was one of the symptoms, I thought. Okay. Okay. I hated seeing the wolf heads around the campfire,

[01:06:14] but it makes sense because the White Cloaks see wolves as dark friends, which is also another reason why they don't like Perrin. But this whole sneaking into the camp thing that they did in this episode, it reminds me actually of how it went down with Perrin and Egwene and the White Cloaks, what we saw in the first season, how it went down in the books. But when I was thinking about it, they do a lot of sneaking into camps in the books, don't they? They do do a lot of sneaking into camps, especially big old Perrin,

[01:06:43] like just lumbering through these camps. He's like, I don't need fog. I'm like, you do. You need the fog. I also really enjoyed, I also really enjoyed Fahil being like, I'm coming. Yeah. And he's like, no. And then she like does her knife thing. And then by being, they were like, her too. Her too. She's coming. I have written here, even Bain and Chiyad respect Fahil. So that's, I like it. Yeah. If the Aiel respect you, you are an impressive fighter.

[01:07:13] But okay. Question. How did Perrin get the keys to the girl's cage? Did Fahil steal them earlier? Or did I miss something there? It's a good question. I don't know. Yeah. All right. Listeners, if you know, please write in, let us know in the discord or what at the lorehounds.com. I wouldn't put it past Fahil to just have a skeleton key to everything in the world. I think that's very possible.

[01:07:43] Yeah. I feel like, didn't we see her hand something to Perrin? I guess that was in episode three at the end of the episode. Yeah. And she, or something. And she was like, this is when she realized that Perrin was going to go to the white, white cloak camp and try to get the coffin spec. Um, yeah, maybe, maybe we can read it as lock picking for now. Okay. All right. Well, uh, we had a child by our sighting. So there was this blonde mustachioed guy that Valda spoke to at one point.

[01:08:13] Remember him? He's, I mean, you never know. Like he's, uh, an important character in the books. Like, I don't know, like a C level character, but you don't know with those types of characters, if they're just going to get a nod, like Jai Chim, the gray man who died, or if they're actually going to play maybe even a more significant role, like Leandrin does. I was Leo pointing at the screen when I saw child by our. Yeah, exactly.

[01:08:43] But yeah, they, I mean, they took the, the time to say his name and introduce him. So I'm, I expect we will see more of him. What did you think of the added Alana Maxim drama? Um, fine. Like I, it didn't bother me, but I didn't need it either. I was a little like, uh, you didn't do that just to come back. I guess fine. Hmm. I'm, I'm a little, I'm a little tired of water drama after the season of it with Moraine and land. Yeah. Uh, but, but I guess fine again,

[01:09:12] like I, again, they are adding certain drama where I'm like, did you need to add that? Cause we already have a lot to get through. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I did. I, it just, the fact that he went away to come back in the same episode. Um, I guess this is maybe establishing like, um, a mental state for the pair of them, but they did seem unified at the end. So maybe this brought them back together. Um, although I have to say, I wrote here, the turning off the bond looks like constipation.

[01:09:43] It's like, I turned off the bond. Get some X-lax in you and you'll be fine. Um, yeah, I'm glad she just came out and said, it's the same thing in the books, but you know, same, same, but different like usual where Alana went to two rivers because she's like, they got that manethrin blood. We, you know, we want some of that, uh, good old blood with the powerful channelers. Yeah. Um, I, I guess fine.

[01:10:12] The blood of manethrin. Yeah. But who's going to heal Alana? Like she didn't get, have any help with the trollic wound. And now she's like, she, she, she's like, um, of pinprick doll of, of, of arrows. So. I think she's just going to be out of the game for a little bit. Hmm. Cause you can't really teach little coffin how to do it that quickly. No, exactly. Unless another eyes to die shows up. And I don't know if that's going to happen.

[01:10:42] No. Mm hmm. Yeah. I was surprised also that Maxim would want to leave in the middle of this mission like that. I guess I was, that was kind of just like a temper tantrum. Yeah, it was, it was very whiny. I mean, so Varen was in the two rivers with her at this point in the books. Wasn't she? Um, yes, yes. But we just don't have that. We clearly, yeah, we're clearly not getting that. So I wonder if they'll send another eyes to die to replace that. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I don't think Varen's going to take off and leave her sister at this point,

[01:11:12] because again, Adelaide was not her sister in the book. And this, that whole thing happened differently anyway. Yeah. Um, yeah, I, I do want to compliment though. Um, the, the, the acting, I think I didn't always, I thought some, a little bit, some of the drama was contrived, but I thought that the acting was really strong. Yeah. No, I thought, I thought it was, it was good. I, I'm really liking Alana's arc. I like that.

[01:11:41] They're developing her more and Maxim. I could take him or leave him, but he's, he's good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I would be really sad if he died because, he's good comic relief. Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. All right. So the last arc that we're going to talk about brings all the rest together and that's the dream training. Um, so bear tells a Gwain that it's time to stop focusing on Rand and start focusing on her own training.

[01:12:08] A Gwain moves in with the wise ones so that they can teach her dream walking and they teach her how to recognize when she is in tell it on Riot, the dream worlds. That looks like a reflection of the waking world. They teach her to control her thoughts there because there, her thoughts control the world and allowing her to move through it or change her clothing on a whim or by accident, if she's not careful. And they warn her that death in the dream world means death in the waking world as well. A Gwain, of course,

[01:12:37] already knows that injuries inflicted there can carry over, but she can use her mind to guard her dreams from now on. A Gwain practices jumping back to Tarvalon in the dream world where she sees a ghostly child running around there. Lanfear finds her and a Gwain is saved by the ping of a metal pin falling out of a burning candle, a safeguard set to ensure escape if needed. And it was bear and Malane tell her that her tormentor is one of the shadow sold. Uh, what the,

[01:13:07] I'll call the forsaken. And, um, so this is obviously the sequence that gave the show, this episode, its title. Uh, what did, what did you think of this whole training thing? And what did you think of the ghost child? Uh, well, I didn't think it was a ghost. I thought it was just somebody touching the dream. Right. Okay. Okay. Now that was my interpretation as well. I mean, I didn't mean like, well, Hmm. I don't want to be spoilery, but yeah. Yeah. No,

[01:13:36] I think it was just because they, they say that in, I think the last episode, they're like, you know, some people, everyone touches the dream. It's just, uh, everyone touches tell her on, right? Oh, you have it right here. Anyone can touch tell her on real, but very few can truly enter it. So I think that's, they were just demonstrating that for us. Yeah. And that's something you see in the book too, right? Is people just like flashing in and out. Mm. Yeah. And this is also why Malane points out that, um, it's not the dreamwalking. It's not connected to the one power that I said,

[01:14:05] I think it is, but actually Malane in the TV show cannot channel, but can dreamwalk. And in the books, it's bears, the one who cannot channel, but can dreamwalk, but they combine bear with a me. So they switched some stuff to Malane and whatever. Malane cannot channel, but can dreamwalk. Right. Swapping things around. Yeah. I like how they do the, um, like the filter for tar, as we're going to call tell it on real. Um,

[01:14:35] so it's sort of like, has this fuzzy filter with a slight echo in the sound. So it shows it's, it does feel slightly different. So it tips you off, but it's subtle enough that you might miss it, which is something where a Gwene is surprised at first. She's like, Oh wait, we're in tar now because it looks the same. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. I, I think that's good. Um, I, for some reason I always pictured it as more like dreamy, almost translucent in the books. And I know that that's not the description we get,

[01:15:05] but it's just in my head. I do it. So it's always like translucent. As I say, I never visualized locations. I did in that. Yeah. I would have been difficult to do as well. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think they did it right in the show. And we also learned the difference between personal dreams and tar. So normies, as you said, sometimes stumble across the barrier briefly and sometimes to, yeah, to death. Um,

[01:15:31] but most of the time we're just like dreaming in our own heads, but people who are dreamwalkers can jump into those dreams as we see a Gwene doing throughout this episode. Right. Right. Um, I loved the clothes changing moment that they had in the dream. So I know like they can't just, they can't keep doing that all the time because it's a budgetary thing, but, uh, it was definitely a thing in the books where at first they have to learn how

[01:16:01] to just like keep themselves dressed a certain way and not give away what they're thinking by, you know, right. Right. Putting on a frilly dress or in this case, you know, armor. Right. Yeah. I think it's, I think it's fun that they, that they did it like that. And I love the way that it like crumbles, like the, it's like the pattern weaving and unweaving right around them. It's very cool. Yeah. Um,

[01:16:28] and a Gwene and Rand say goodbye to a shared bedroom. Uh, there's this awkward kiss and I don't know, this kind of feels like a soft breakup to me. What do you think? Do it. Do it. I'm ready. We didn't need them to be this together in the show. End it. Do it. This is like you trying to tell John that every Peter Parker needs a tragic death on his family. I'm not the one who says that it's Spider-Man canon. I didn't make it up. And then he called me Miguel, which is totally fair.

[01:16:59] Who's Miguel? He's, um, he's the one from the into the, sorry, the, um, across the Spider-Verse movie. I didn't watch that. That's why. Okay. Oh, okay. Well, you gotta watch that played by Oscar Isaac. Oh, all right. Um, all right. Well, speaking of breaking them up, do you want to set up the final sequence of dream events? Sure. Moraine asks a Gwene to use her new dreamwalking training to help her meet

[01:17:26] with Swan in her dream in their love shack in tier. There Moraine tells Swan what she saw in the rings, that the white tower must bend the knee to ran to give him a chance to win the last battle. They hash it out over the whole Swan trying to take control of ran thing last season. Uh, they fantasize about a life away from duty and make up with a kiss. Though Moraine asserts they've broken what they have and it can't be mended, not in this life. Uh, but she will wait for her in the next.

[01:17:57] Giving the two privacy, a Gwene is already feeling more confident in the dream world and loves to push boundaries. So she decides to go exploring. She slips into her friend's private dreams, checking in on them from far. Nynaeve is with her daughter from the mirror world. She saw through the arches of her accepted test, teaching her to listen to the wind in the two rivers. Perrin is also in the two rivers, blacksmithing with Fai'il, a new face to a Gwene, and his wolf friend Hopper, whom we saw the debt,

[01:18:27] the white cloak daddy born hauled kill last season. Elaine is dressed as a sea folk wind wind finder, weaving the weather at the front of a ship. As Avienda walks up to embrace her from behind. And Matt is with his sisters and his mother in the tower, promising them a life of increased luxury. While his mother tells her she's proud, but a Gwene is in for a nasty surprise. When she enters Rand's dreams, land fear is already there.

[01:18:54] And she's told Rand that she's in love with him and they're making out. Gwene screams cut to credits. Yeah. So I think it, I, the relationship can't survive that. Like you were making out with a woman who is literally torturing me every night in my dreams. Break up. Break up. Hmm. Um, so we did, but before,

[01:19:23] before a Gwene catches them, we saw that Rand told land fear that he saw the past version, the mirror and said I version of her in his vision from before she swore herself to the dark one. So I have the feeling that's made him more in love with her than ever. Right. Yeah. He's like, well, she's, I can fix her. I can fix her. Yeah, exactly. And she's giving him hope that there's still something to save in there because she says,

[01:19:52] I've fallen in love with this piece of you that wants to save the world. I've always loved the piece of you that knows you have to break it. She really does the whole bad girl thing hard. Yikes. Run, buddy. Run. Yeah. Um, yeah. So we talked about already. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:20:40] So we talked about already. dreams of dreams years ago. So that makes me, we were questioning what year is it currently in the show? We know the year that they showed up, that Moraine showed up in the two rivers was the bell time of nine 98 and E new era. And we know there was a bell time in season two. So that means a year had passed. Um, so does this mean another year has passed? Maybe. I don't know. They're playing fast and loose with the time. And I don't blame them.

[01:21:08] I wouldn't want to be like stuck to a calendar either. I would. That's just me. I'm like, just drop a date. Just, just take pity on me and drop a date. No, um, but I did, I really liked this sequence overall though. Um, I thought it was, even though a Gwaine was like, not exactly respecting boundaries, it was really sweet. Most of the stuff that she saw and it's just fun to imagine, like it must all be blowing her mind. Like, she's like, wait,

[01:21:38] who's that? Wait, what Elaine is channeling on a boat. What's going on? Um, I love that. I went with the real sea folk garb too. Oh yeah. Oh boy. I love that. Elaine Vienda is going strong. Can I ask, do you think, was that actually a Vienda, maybe accidentally dreamwalking? Maybe she already knows a bit about dreamwalking. Or do you think it was just like a dream image? No, I think it was a dream image. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[01:22:09] What did you think of this whole sequence? I don't think Avienda's that skilled yet. No, but maybe she accidentally did because she wanted to see Elaine. So she thought herself there by accident. Maybe. I would like a very awkward scene between Ren and Avienda at one point where, nevermind, I won't spoil it. Well, all right. Let's, that, that was it for my notes. What did you have any more thoughts on this sequence on the episode as a whole? Um,

[01:22:37] I just thought they did a really good job setting up the rest of the season. I don't, I get not a lot of like huge events this episode. I like the cliffhanger and, you know, again, not what will happen, but what will happen next. Um, did you, did you get to hear our severance because you were asking about my thoughts on that cliffhanger? Um, I've started the episode, but, uh, I don't know. I haven't heard your thoughts yet actually. So I liked it. I like it. Okay. Okay. Yeah. David was the cranky one about that episode. Yeah. That I heard. So apparently that, mm-hmm. Yeah.

[01:23:07] I was, I'm surprised, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I liked it a lot, but anyway, so I thought this was a good cliffhanger for the next episode. Good setup. I'm looking forward to watching the next one. Yes. Yeah. Now the, well, after we record the lore cast, we can do that. And maybe I'll wait. I'm just kidding. I don't, I will wait until after the lore cast. Hmm. So we have the, um, lore cast is for subscribers. So if you are, if you are a Patreon or super cast subscriber,

[01:23:36] then you have access to all of the lore casts, including two came out before this one. Um, we had a lore cast about the timeline. And then also there was an extra lore cast for episode four where Mark and I talk about the song. So there's in the public feed, there was a preview, of the first part of that, where we talk about the diegetic music, the music, you know, that sung within the story from previous seasons.

[01:24:03] And then the full episode where we talk about the song that was introduced in episode four and the meaning of it and the history of it and everything. Uh, that is available for subscribers and also for season pass holders. So do you want to talk about the season pass? Yes. The season pass, it's, it's starting to pick up the subscriptions. They are, they are, um, one-time purchases where you can get all of our ad free coverage of the wheel of time this season and last season, uh, just for 10 bucks.

[01:24:31] You'll also get bonus episodes like the lore casts. And, uh, I know you did a bonus lore cast too with Mark. Uh, and you also get the show guide, visual show guide, Nancy hand of the pod, who is now keeper of the chronicles. She did a ton of work on the show guide to make sure that everyone has a solid base of characters. We've sorted it out so you can look at them by Aja and by affiliation. Um, you can look at the concept guide, which I'm still adding stuff to every episode and, uh, and the episode breakdowns,

[01:25:01] you can see our outline essentially, but it links to different character entries. Good stuff, right? Yes. And as I said, this week's lore cast is going to be all about Aiel social and political relationships. We're going to sort out what a great mother is versus a, uh, father sister. Yep. Uh, I'm not totally sure. So I appreciate you clearing that up for me. Uh, so yeah, you brought up the severance finale this week. Also, uh, subscribers, not,

[01:25:31] uh, not season pass holders, but subscribers will have access to our Scott Pilgrim and Zulu. Lander versus episode. Cause we got our first ever tie. Um, but you don't need to be a subscriber. Uh, if you know, that's not for you, we are just really grateful that you're listening. If you enjoyed this, then we really appreciate if you can share this episode with other wheel of time for fans, we want to turn everyone in our lives into wheel of time fans so that we get all eight seasons. Um,

[01:25:59] you can also leave a review for our podcast wherever you are listening as well. What else we got going on, on the network, on the channel and the rest of network, a lot of stuff. We've got, uh, the last of us and and or coming very quickly, like two weeks away, basically two or three weeks away. Um, we've got a Silmarillion stories. I'm recording one tonight with Denae from, captain's pod and from cinema sins. So that'll be a lot of fun. Um, you know, we have Baron and Luthien coming next though. I'm recording ahead.

[01:26:29] I'm actually like a couple months ahead now, which is, it's much more relaxing. Yeah. Um, and, uh, what else we got going on? Uh, we've got daredevil. Jean and I will put up another daredevil episode for episodes four and five. Sorry. I can only keep track of what I'm on at this point. No, that's fair. And then of course, yeah, lots of more coverage coming up. Last of us and or everything.

[01:26:54] You can find the link tree in the show notes with also the affiliates of radioactive ramblings just wrapped up invincible where you have nevermind the music where music meets psychology. And definitely again, listen to at least the opening part of our song lore cast with Mark from nevermind the music. Um, and join us on discord. We have channels set up with,

[01:27:16] we have a channel per episode for the wheel of time so that we can talk for spoilers and a separate channel for book readers who want to talk about that stuff. Uh, we also want to hear all of your feedback via what at the lore hounds.com. Um, those of you who wants all the full book, spoiler conversations stick around until after the break. But, uh, John, do you want to do the reading of the names? And John requested a bit more pizzazz this time. John did. Mm hmm.

[01:27:46] Oh, because we do it with the music. Yeah, I should have loaded up. I meant to send you the music. We put on like metal music or. All right. Okay. Next time. Yeah. discord server boosters, Aaron K. Taylor, the thriller, dork, the ninjas do 71, Athena, a Tina list to Nancy M goes to partition and radioactive. Richard. Thank you for helping the server have more features and our lore masters from Patreon and supercast who help keep the show rolling. Some artian, Michael G, Michelle E,

[01:28:16] Brian P, SC, Peter, Oh, Bettina, W, Adam S, Nancy M, do 71, Brian, 80, 63, Frederick H, Sarah L, Gareth, C, Matthew M, Sarah M, DJ Miwa, Andra B, Kwong U, Dead Eye, Jedi Bob, Nathan T, Alex V, Sub Zero, Aaron K, Dally V, Mothership 61, Narls, Kathy W, Lestu, Jeffrey B, Elisa U, Neil F, Ben B, Scott F, Steven N, Julia F, Kali S, Ilmariel, Adrian,

[01:28:47] Adrian, where are you? We're looking for you. Thanks everyone for the support. And we'll talk to you on the Lorecast. The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds. You can send questions, feedback, and voicemails at the lorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and add free access to all our episodes at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities.

[01:29:17] So, welcome to the White Tower Talk, where all of the secrets of the White Tower are shared through all 15, yes, 15 books in the series. So, make sure you have the proper clearance to be at this gathering in the hall. And yeah. John, did you have any book spoiler thoughts that you wanted to open with about this episode? I was really interested to see what they do with Avienda and her attitude towards Rand.

[01:29:46] Because to me, in the book, that is one of the parts of the romance that felt most annoying and juvenile to me. Okay. It's like, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, no, I love you. Right. And I don't know if we're getting away from that. Yeah. It doesn't seem like that so far. Like, it seems like they're going with the book. That was one of the things I hoped they would change from the book. So, we'll see where they go with that. At least they seem to have matured his, you know, getting to know Elaine a bit more.

[01:30:13] What was the thing that you were mentioning earlier as a thing everyone's mad at Elaine about? Oh, the, I can never remember the name of the woman. The Ebudar Queen. Oh, Tylan. Yeah. She, like, laughs when Matt describes being assaulted by her. Oh, right. And that's something that everyone hates and feels very out of character for her, too. Mm-hmm. So, I hope that they change that if that happens. Yeah.

[01:30:36] Something that I alluded to in the podcast, the main podcast, actually, that I wanted to mention was there's a scene that I hope that they do where, because Avienda thinks that, like, Rand is pledged to Elaine, although I guess that's not really what they're going for here. Avienda's like, let me describe to you her body. Her breasts are like, and he's like, why are you telling me this? See? It's a sexy book. No, Rand's intended to be, anyway.

[01:31:05] That always got me, though. Rand's like, are you kidding me? And he's like, she's like, wetlanders are so rude. Like, come on. It is my duty to tell you how of her curves we go. Yeah, I think, like, you know, I always found it a bit odd that knowing that Elaine has feelings for him. I mean, I guess she was just so overcome that she couldn't, you know. But I think it makes more sense for the two of them, for Avienda and Elaine to approach him kind of like as a couple.

[01:31:35] Like, hey, we saw you from across the room and we like your vibe, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I definitely bought the beginning of the Elaine romance more than I bought the beginning of the Avenda romance. But I like both of them as his partner in the end. Yeah. But again, like I was saying, Elaine was so much more immature in the beginning in the books. So, like, that whole two letters thing. I think we got a reference to the two letters, but she sent them to her mom and someone in tear.

[01:32:01] But in the books, they both went to Rand and one was like, I love you so much. And the other one was like, I hate you and I want you to die, you know? Yeah. It was because Rand didn't, like, ask her to stay. Right. And Rand wouldn't ask about that. He's like, but... But she didn't want to stay. Like, she needed to go somewhere else. So, I didn't want to make her feel bad. And Egwene's like, you don't get it. And he's like, okay. Okay. Yeah. All right. All right. Thanks, manipulative. Yeah. Manipulative. I said I. She doesn't have any of that vibe at all.

[01:32:31] She's much more, like, mature and grounded. And she's kind of... It seems like she's the... She's a kid who... You know, she has her mom her whole life, obviously. And she has her brothers and Aleda, for what that's worth. And Linny. We saw Linny. She exists. Yes. But it feels like she also raised herself a lot in the show. Yeah. In the book, she's like, I'm going to heal birds. And now this man fell into my garden. And I'm going to heal him. Look, it is a meet cute. I'll say that.

[01:33:00] I think out of the three, he has the best meet cute with her. Uh-huh. Yeah. No, that's... Yeah, that's a very memorable scene. And yeah, it went the way it went. But I can understand. Yeah. Yeah, I do. I agree with you. I think they're playing it well with Alvienda's reactions to, you know, the fact that she definitely must have seen in the ring futures with her and Ran together. And who knows? Right. Yeah.

[01:33:29] I just hope that they get together more smoothly. Like, it was so random and weird in the book. Don't do that. Well, I like how they're already setting it up in this episode. You know, when Alvienda says to Ran, like, monogamy is a lot to ask of one person. And he's like, oh, hmm, nobody ever presented a non-monogamous option to me. All right. Fine. So they're laying the groundwork. Yeah.

[01:33:58] So my thing that I was most excited about is in the dream sequence at the end when we saw Hopper. I think that's really Hopper. Like, that's really Hopper's soul. I think so, too. Hopper's coming back. We're going to get the wolf dreams. I hope so. So we got to. I think we already have a little bit, so we got to do it again. Right. Right. I mean, but Perrin... It is the wolf dream, so... Right. But Perrin needs to learn that that's what's going on. Yeah. I wonder if they're going to bring back...

[01:34:28] What's his name? Elias? Yeah. I wonder if they're going to bring back Elias or if they're just going to have Hopper kind of, like, see him stumble into the wolf dream and train him like they did in the books. Because they haven't, you know, in the books, they say that it's with images that the wolves. They don't always communicate, but you can... Robert Jordan then writes down what they're saying, right? Like, for you. Right. And I wonder if we're going to get a voice for any of these wolves or if it's just going to be images. And maybe it's subtitled or something. I don't know. Right.

[01:34:56] Or it's like Perrin talking to Lassie. Like, what, Hopper? Timmy's in the well? Oh, my God. All right. That's the worst option. I mean, I want Elias back just because, yeah, it would be nice to have Elias back. But he does actually also disappear for quite a while in the books. Yes, he does. He does. And I guess that's just the way it goes with the shows. I don't like that about the TV adaptation, but I understand the realities of it. But just, like, for instance, the fact we didn't have Tom last season. Right.

[01:35:26] Yeah. Right. I also liked the foreshadowing with Maxim where he's asking Alana, like, why did you take me to this backwater mountain town? And she's like, to build an army. And he's like, an army of farmers. And I'm like, ooh, just wait for episode seven. Which, to be clear, we don't know. But we do pretty much know that episode, like, the Phantom in general knows episode seven is going to be the Battle of the Two Rivers. Okay.

[01:35:55] I haven't been looking ahead at all, even at, like, the notes that they give us. So I'm spoiler free here. No, I won't. No, I mean, no spoilers to say. Like I said, we haven't watched ahead. But that is something that's been pretty much communicated. In a penultimate episode, you know, Big Battle is something that we see in a lot of fantasy media. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And those who have seen the entire season say that there's one more episode this season that is as good as four, perhaps.

[01:36:23] And I'm wondering if that's this one, if that's the Battle of the Two Rivers episode. Fair enough. I'm not sure. It makes sense that would be one that they would really, like, lock in on. Yeah. Do you think Maxim might die? Ooh. Yes. I think maybe, like you've mentioned, like, we do lose another warder or a warder for Alana in the Two Rivers. Right. But we already lost one. We already lost a warder in the season. Yeah. Yeah. So, I don't know.

[01:36:52] I could see it going either way. Yeah. I don't want him to die, but I don't know. It does seem like there is an imperative, and I understand where it comes from, that they need to kill off more characters. Because, you know. You don't want him to die? You're like the Grim Reaper of fiction. I am not. I'm never going to let you live down this Peter Parker podcast. Listen to the, it was in silos, Luke, the whole time, trying to kill Daddy Dr. Nichols. So, like, why? Why? That's pretty funny. He lives in the book.

[01:37:22] He lives. Anyway. No siloes. Well, he was successful in the end, so. Yeah. He said that he doesn't even get credit for it because it took so long. That's funny. So, yeah. One other thing I noticed is that we didn't really talk about it, but, well, I guess, yeah, we said Alayda talked to Alveon. Alveon.

[01:37:44] But that means Alayda was, we've seen in this episode, she is not a Black sister, but Alveon, we know from as being book readers, is a member of the Black Aja. That's probably the 12th person that they're looking for, I would guess. Yeah. So, kind of ironic. It's either Alveon or Varen, right? Right. Although, I guess they wouldn't know about Varen. Exactly. I think Alveon is the one they would know. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:38:14] So, it's just kind of ironic that Alayda is making a deal with her thinking that she'll get a better jump on the Black. Because we see, she does care about the Black Aja. It's not just about being in power. Yeah. She's like, I want to be in power because everyone else is bad at their job and I think that I'm better than everyone. Right. And that is not a great attitude to have. And it's the reason she gets a collar in the end. And so, let me just make this deal with the Black Sister so that I can save the whole tower from the Black Sisters. Right.

[01:38:43] Honestly, though, like, as far as poetic justice goes, I feel like Alayda gets the poetic justice more than anybody. Hmm.

[01:39:21] Hmm. I think I'd send Alayda first out of the non-dark friends. Yeah. I mean, that's fair. That's fair. But also, I just wonder how they're going to handle the whole Shenzhen. I mean, obviously, we saw they're not backing off the beginning of it. But there's a lot of people who don't like the fact that at the end, they compromise and allow the Shenzhen to keep their slavery through the last battle to get them on their side. Yeah.

[01:39:49] It's, it's, see, here's the thing, though. Like, it's icky, but you could also see that happening in a real-world environment. You know what I mean? Absolutely. Like, there are a ton of moral compromises made all the time. Right. Right. Yeah, and I do kind of like the somewhat gray tinge to it. But then I wish we guessed, of course, the sequels. Right. Yeah, it would be nice to then have a sequel series where they, like, are forced to actually reckon with the fact that the, you know, the Suldam can channel and then the Queen can channel.

[01:40:19] The Embers can channel, right? Like, that's a really interesting series now. So, yeah, you're right. It would be nice to, I'm actually reading more Brandon Sanderson now because I'm inspired by Wheel of Timey stuff. Okay. I'm getting into Stormlight Archive. Okay. All right. What do you think, like, I guess you must have just started because we talked about it the other day. I'm 50 pages in. So, yeah, I'm not, like, a lot in. It's pretty good so far. I mean, like, it's not, I'm not in enough to really make a fair judgment. Mm-hmm. All right. All right. Someday I'm going to get to his books.

[01:40:47] I just, you know, there's a new Star Wars book out that I need to read before Andor. Fair enough. Fair enough. I am very much looking forward to Andor. Every time I turn around, there's another piece of media I need to watch or read. I know. I know. They can slow down. They really can slow down. Just one at a time. Because this is the thing. Like, it's harder for something to be a cultural event if attention is divided between these major properties that have overlapping fandoms.

[01:41:18] I know. I know. I mean, I get some of them. Like, White Lotus is not competing with the Wheel of Time. No, sure. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's just different. I'm like, I like them both, but the overlap between that is not a lot, I think. No, exactly. No, I don't argue that. But definitely Severance and Wheel of Time have overlapping fandom, Wheel of Time, and Andor, and The Last of Us. The Last of Us and Andor, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't get the under-release schedule. But anyway, you... Oh, when are you...

[01:41:47] Are you going to release the new ad before this? Yes. Okay. I really like the new ad where you explain how we're handling it. I'll just say that. Thank you. Thank you. It's going to be a lot of fun. Yeah. Okay, so Wheel of Time. One last question from my side is, what do we think on the Moraine Death Watch at this point? Do we think...

[01:42:12] So in the books, she falls through this door to this other world, and then Matt and Tom basically go and save her later. Yeah, she Gandalfs. She Gandalfs. There you go. Yeah, that's true. She is very Gandalf. Do we think there's a chance that they would outright kill her? Now, we've brought this question up before, but after this week's episode, do we think... They're painting it as if, you know, she's really going to die. But of course, that's show trickery. What do you think at this point?

[01:42:41] I don't think she's really going to die. And I think if she did really die, it would be a fatal mistake for the show. Yeah. She didn't need that emotional beat at the end. And she wouldn't even have to come back for that long. She can come back for like three episodes. No! She has to fall in love with Tom. There are book readers cursing me right now for saying that. I could totally do without her falling in love with Tom, and I would be fine with it. Well, we haven't even... She has to fall in love with Tom.

[01:43:08] We haven't even seen them in a scene together yet to see if they even have chemistry. But of course they do. Look at them. I don't care about Tom Lane. I just don't... Yeah, I don't in the books. Tom Rain. Tom Rain, yeah. I don't in the books, but I could be made to care in the show. Maybe. We'll see. But is there enough time? I don't know. I don't know if we have enough time to deal with that. Especially after spending multiple seasons on her and Swan. Swan. Yeah, I mean, we'll see what happens there.

[01:43:37] They seem to be really winding that up, perhaps. But... And I still am on Swan Death Watch this season. But hopefully we have five more seasons. I'm still holding my breath for that. Yeah. No, I think that'd be great if we can do this story to its end. I think if you do this without having Tarmic Guyton, then the show will go down as one of the great missed opportunities. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:44:03] And even if they were given one more season to wrap it up, they just have to skip straight to Tarmic Guyton, I guess, which is just such a shame. Yeah. I do hope we at least get it wrapped up, though. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it sounds like... I have the feeling, and this is based on just, like, you know, feeling the direction the wind is going based on random comments that have been made. I have the feeling that maybe they...

[01:44:32] The question is whether it's one more season or beyond that. And, you know, the answer depends on how well this season does. Mm-hmm. It's getting really good reviews. It's getting better reviews this season. Yeah. I think as good reviews this season as it was the last, the end of last season. Right. So that's good. In episode four, I saw somebody was sharing all of the IMDb ratings, and you can just see the rating steadily going up.

[01:45:00] So, indeed, the beginning of the season matched the ratings at the end of last season, you know, mid to high eights. And episode four, last time I checked, had a 9.5 out of 10 rating on IMDb. It's great. That's great. I mean, it was a really great episode. It deserves it. Yeah. We'll see. We'll see. Everybody tell your friends. Everybody tell your friends so we can stop talking about our renewal worries. We'll shut up the minute we hear about season four. Yes. Yes. And then we'll start talking about season five renewal.

[01:45:31] That's right. So, okay. Do you have any other spoilery thoughts about this episode? I don't think so. I'm, like I said, I'm loving Peleron, Ryoad, all that. What I am very interested in is, are they going to do, you know, you mentioned earlier that they're setting up like the cross pollination of these channelers. Are they going to go all the way with that? Have, have a Gwain try to unite the three. Mm-hmm.

[01:46:25] I don't know. Yeah. We're definitely not getting to Saladar this season, I don't think. No, no way. And I think that's fine. We don't have time. No, we don't have time. But we better have five more seasons to do that and the circus and Shara and yeah, all the things. The igloo. Oh, we can skip the circus. Come on. No, come on. We're skipping the circus. No. Boo. Hiss. I love the circus. I don't even want the circus. It's fine. It's fine. Well, I know you don't want the circus, but I love the circus and I know there are other people who agree with me.

[01:46:54] There are dozens of us. Dozens of dozens of us. All right. Well, fine. All right. Well, thank you. That was a really fun discussion and very excited to watch episode six. Yeah. I'll see you there. Andor is underway. Excellent. If we release three episodes per week, the Low Hounds will never be able to cover every episode.

[01:47:20] The Imperial forces will crush the rebellion before it begins. Stand by. We're picking up something on our scanners. Echo Squadron reporting in. Delta Squadron on your left. Jango Squadron on your six. With Imperial forces coming in fast, we're calling all rebels to join the fight this season. Starting after the April 22nd premiere, you'll hear three full breakdowns for each week's episodes of Andor Season 2. Each podcast will be led by one of our squadron leaders, Alicia, David, and John.

[01:47:49] We'll be bringing in new and familiar voices to fill out the roster. Search for the Lore Hounds on any podcast platform to join us in a galaxy far, far away. And don't forget to check out our season pass for even more content like our Holocron bonus pods. It's good news for anyone except Darth Vader. No! No! No!