The Wheel of Time - S03E08 - He Who Comes with the Dawn

[00:00:01] Nicole, did you ever notice how the sign by Ace of Bass has really strange key changes? I did not, Mark. I'm a real person. Well, let me tell you about it. I'll let you talk about neuroscience gobbledygook. Yes! I thought you'd never ask. This is the Nevermind the Music Podcast. Where one psychologist... ...and one musician... ...deep dive into the songs you love. So you don't have to. And there's plenty of time to get off topic. From semi-charmed life to the way you move... ...and who could forget the crossroads. Is it THE crossroads or THE crossroads?

[00:00:29] Save it for the episode, Mark. Listen to Nevermind the Music. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:00:56] Welcome to the Lorehounds coverage of The Wheel of Time Season 3, Episode 8, He Who Comes with the Dawn. I'm Alicia, the fox through the doorframe. And I'm John, Mogidion's cave redecorator. And by the way, as usual, for most of the episode, we're going to have spoilers through all of Season 3 and equivalent book stuff. And if you are interested in future book spoilers, we will not do any of that in the main episode.

[00:01:23] But stick around until after the outro music for our White Tower Talk with full series book spoilers. And do also, by the way, if you want the opposite experience, do check out the non-reader check-in with Jean that I did. Did you get a chance to give that a listen, Jean? I did. I heard a lot of kicking rocks. Yeah. But he did a lot of kicking rocks and taking names. Yeah.

[00:01:47] I said that the line of Trollocs coming down the mountain in Episode 4 was actually people Jean sent to kick rocks. That's good. That's good. Yeah, I was listening to it. I think I listened to about half of it because, as long-time listeners may know, I missed the last Lorecast because I was sick and I was in and out of fever dreams and I was listening to podcasts in between. So I don't know how much of it I heard, actually. That was a fun conversation.

[00:02:15] It's fun to get the perspective of someone who's just enjoying this from, you know, just from the show-only perspective and to hear what he still picks up on and, yeah, how he's feeling about the characters. He's not a fan of Perrin. Yeah, he is not a fan of Perrin. I'm not a fan of mid-books Perrin, so I get it. I get it. And Perrin can be extremely frustrating at times. So I am not totally against Jean with this.

[00:02:44] No, no. I mean, yeah. Perrin's in the middle for me. But, yeah, I'm waiting for next season. I think we're going to get my favorite Perrin stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Next season, you think? Okay. Yeah. All right. All right. Yeah, I think so. Because, I mean, they should have already gotten into it this season. But I understand they have to delay some things just to, you know, space things out. Yeah. Okay. All right. I'm in. But, okay.

[00:03:13] About this season, I'm nervous to ask because I haven't – you – I have no indication from you. No idea what you're about to say. What is your hot take about the finale? I thought it was really great. I thought it was – oh, did you think I wasn't going to like it? I don't know because I didn't hear anything. Oh, I was just – I was just dying. You were sick. You were sick. Yeah, yeah. I was just – I was unconscious. That's the problem. But I just – but then I don't know. It could go any way. So, I'm relieved to hear that you liked it.

[00:03:43] No, I really loved it. I thought, you know, as much as I was a downer a little bit about episode seven, which like usually when I'm a downer about an episode, I get a lot of complaints. But maybe I was fair enough where people didn't – I didn't hear any complaints about my being a Debbie Downer about it. So, episode eight, I thought, you know, perfectly executed episode. There was one thing that they didn't go as far in the plot on as I thought they would. But other than that, I thought that they did a fantastic job tying up loose ends from the rest of the season. The visuals were stunning.

[00:04:12] The character development was great. They actually pulled one thing ahead in the books that I thought was a really smart choice. And we'll get to that later with Nynaeve. Yeah. Yeah. And I just – overall, I'm thrilled. And I really hope we get a season three because this is not concluded. Yeah, season four. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:39] Now, I mean, I've been really enjoying – well, first of all, it was interesting to see the reactions to episode seven because there are people who say it's their favorite episode of the entire season. It seems like there is a lot of strong love for it. And, you know, as we were talking about in the episode itself, it's basically – there's a divide on this one, I think, between book readers and non-readers.

[00:05:04] And not a strict divide, but it's, you know, book readers had so much more expectations just because this is like – it's such a long, drawn-out thing, you know? And non-book readers are like, that was a great battle episode. So, yeah, we just have to take off our book goggles for that one. That's fine. That's fine. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I just listened to Rosamund Pike's interview with David Tennant. Uh-huh. And by the way, amazing interview. I think everybody should listen to it. It's on David Tennant Does a Podcast with dot dot dot.

[00:05:34] And it's the episode labeled Rosamund Pike. Like, and she was talking about working on the Wheel of Time. And she said, you know, we finally, like, got the fandom this season. Mm-hmm. She said the first two seasons, we got some – and she's like, we got some, like, valid or fair or something like that criticism in the first two seasons from, like, the real fandom people. And I think we – they finally are with us this season. And I was like, I think you're right.

[00:06:02] Like, I was with you on season two also, and I know you were with them on season one. Mm-hmm. But season three, I think, is, like, the indisputable – like, we're all here now. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I've made some oblique comments about a content creator who's infamous for trashing the show. And I'll say now that it was – it's Daniel Green. And now I actually enjoy watching his videos this season because he's loving it and he's,

[00:06:30] like, really thinking about, oh, why do they make these changes? And it just seems like people want to be on board more this season. And I think that also – yeah, that's just the quality, the level that the show is giving to people. And I'm – my new favorite hobby – I even went on Twitter for the first time in many months just to see what people were saying because I'm just enjoying all the people

[00:06:54] who are – and on Blue Sky you see this on threads and whatever – just all the people who are just discovering the show because apparently they just hear so much buzz about it. And now they're binging it from the beginning and more people falling in love. And obviously not everyone's going to love it. That's never going to be true. But it seems if you look at all the top comments, it's people saying, like, this is some of the best fantasy I have ever seen in my life.

[00:07:23] And yeah, just really – it feels like – and the numbers so far, we don't have many numbers yet. We only have numbers from the first week from Nielsen. But it feels like the numbers are going to be good. And I'm hoping they're delaying the renewal announcement because they want to announce two at a time. And I know a lot of the fandom hopes that because it would just be so much easier for them financially and logistically. I hope they do that.

[00:07:54] I hope they renew very soon. It's really a shame. You know, The Last of Us just got to renew a pre-premiere. And that's so nice because we could just relax the whole season. I think, you know, if The Wheel of Time gets canceled, it'll be for a lot of reasons. But I think mostly it will be for the trajectory of streaming right now. It won't be specific to the show. Right. Yeah. And it's also – it's a co-production between Amazon and Sony.

[00:08:23] And so apparently maybe there's something there. You know, and the fact that the two of them have to make a deal together, that might be what's holding things up a bit. Yeah. Yeah, who knows? But the buzz and the numbers definitely help. So keep talking about it, everyone. Keep making everyone watch it. Definitely. And we'll do our part today. Mm-hmm. Yes. Okay. So I loved the episode. It was my – I think it was my second favorite of the season, actually. Oh, yeah? After episode four.

[00:08:53] Got it. Yeah. I actually – I'd agree with that. I think these two really stand out because they did a lot with this episode, but it was still paced well. And that, to me, is very impressive. Yeah. I think, you know, when we talk about the quality between the seasons, there are sloppy points in seasons one and two that make you nitpick. Mm-hmm. And this is something that happens in Rings of Power. Rings of Power. Oh, my God. Rings of Power also. And it happens in House of the Dragon. Yeah.

[00:09:23] Mm-hmm.

[00:09:53] And episode five. But we were just like, whatever, moving on, moving on, because the rest is so cool, you know? Yeah. Or was that episode six, actually? Anyway. And it's been an incredible season. The ratings are really good. And yeah. But we are here to talk about the finale, episode eight, He Who Comes with the Dawn. And this one was written by Justine Joelle Gilmer, who was also credited for episode one of this season.

[00:10:21] And the director was Kieran Donnelly, who also directed episodes one and two and seven of the season. And this was one of the longest at an hour and eight minutes. And yeah, I might have hoped for longer. But actually, I really agree with you. You know, like a lot of people, there's a lot of anxiety. We're recording this slightly ahead of the airing. And there's a lot of anxiety online right now in the fandom because people think that the finales are always too rushed.

[00:10:50] And just looking at the laundry list of things that they needed to accomplish, and it turns out they did accomplish, I agree with you. I think the pacing was surprisingly really good, really even, very, you know, they gave these three different stories equal weight. And they all had several big moments. Yeah, I agree.

[00:11:17] And really, like, they changed enough of the Rand stuff that it was interesting for me. Like, implicating Lanfear directly and, like, showing it. I know she basically was confirmed to do it in the books. But now we have, like, on camera, like, girl is doing it. And plus, bringing forward the Tom and Elaine stuff, bringing forward Nynaeve's block thing,

[00:11:47] I think. And also, having a payoff for some of the show creation stuff with the Leandrin plotline, I thought that was a really brilliant way to sort of marry the sometimes controversial changes of the show in the past to these great climaxes that are beloved by book readers and show watchers alike. Yeah. Yeah, I think they're setting things up in a much more interesting way between Mogedian and Lanfear.

[00:12:14] Like, those two also have an interesting relationship in the books, but I think they're adding more complexity to it now. Yeah, they're certainly, like, more defined in their powers. And that's true of all the Forsaken here. Mm-hmm. Yeah. All right, so we're going to be talking through one story arc at a time. So we're going to be discussing scenes out of the order in which they air.

[00:12:41] And do you want to take us to Once Upon a Tar-Valon? Sure. The episode opens in the White Tower 10 years ago. Elida Sedai of the Red Aja exits that mysterious twisted red doorframe in the 13th Depository. A portal, it turns out. So she's looking at her wrist at the fox and snake's charm bracelet we see her wearing in 10 years later. Alvi Aran of the White Aja is waiting for her.

[00:13:08] She tells her that going through the door was reckless. Many have gone through and never returned. But Elida insists it was the logical thing to do. And tells Alvi Aran that the Elfin of the other side of that door promised her the Amarlin seat itself. Yeah, so I think season four we're going to need to do an Elfin versus Elfin lore cast.

[00:13:34] I'm not sure they are different in this, honestly. No, no, they are different. They are different. Because, well, first of all, we have the two doorframes. So, okay, just to catch non-readers up, they're remixing this a bit in the way that this happens with these two doorframes and stuff and the events there around. And Elida had nothing to do with that in the books. But they did specifically, the door Elida went through, they called it the Elfin.

[00:14:03] So that's A-E-L-F-I-N-N. And then when Matt was in the other one with the fox figure, that was the Elfin, E-E-L-F-I-N-N. So they're called the Fin together. And they're the Elfin and the Elfin. And we, yeah, one is foxes. We keep saying another animal with that. Maybe that's through the other door. But spoilers, I guess. Okay.

[00:14:31] Yeah, I guess what confused me is that both sides got a gift. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that is a change. Because in the books, it's one, the Elfin is questions and the E-E-L-F-I-N is gifts. But here, Alviaren says to Elida, you cannot trust them. Every gift the Fin give has a price. Yes.

[00:14:53] And says that they, so I don't know if they answered her questions and like, that's how they promised her the Emerlin seat or if she requested it like the way we saw Matt request things later. Yeah. And Alviaren said to Elida, every gift the Fin give has a price. And then she says, yeah, that they promised her the Emerlin seat. But is that a gift or a question? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good question. I guess we're going to have to stick around for that one. Yeah.

[00:15:23] Because it is true, like Matt's story has a couple parts with the Elfin and the Elfin. And we got part of it, but it's like a remixed part. Like they combined different parts. So we'll have to talk about that more in the White Tower. And we had that dancing guy up there, you know? He was like remixing musically almost. With the Fox, the Elfin? Yeah. It was like, done! And it was like all background noise. Yeah, I love the effects.

[00:15:54] Yeah. No, it was great. I thought that, I guess we could just talk about that later. Yeah. But yeah, how relieved were you? Like as soon as I saw Elida walk out of the door, I was so relieved. Because for some reason, I don't know, I knew like it would not be smart to cut the fin. But for some reason, everyone was so worried that they were going to cut the fin from the story. I think because they cut the green man.

[00:16:23] And aside from the green man, this is the second weirdest thing in the book. Is it though? I don't know. I mean, they cut the portal stones too, of course. And some other creatures and stuff. But I don't know. I think it's pretty weird. I think it's pretty out there. Like I do. I agree with you. It's not a smart thing to get rid of it. But like, I've thought things weren't smart to cut before. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I guess I can't say why I don't think they should cut it.

[00:16:49] But I just, yeah, the green man was like a one and done kind of random deal. In this. Right. I don't know. Anyway. But yeah. So in the books, this door was, the door that's in Tar Valan was in the Stone of Tear in the books. So, and this is an addition that Elida goes through. But I guess this kind of explains the bracelet that she has. We saw that there were foxes and snakes on it. But it's the shake in her hand, the price. We still have questions around that. Yeah.

[00:17:19] That's a good question. Is it a bracelet like a Tarangreal or something? Yeah. It could be a Tarangreal or a Sangreal. And it also could be like, maybe it's something to keep her from neurologically degenerating as fast. Like maybe it's actually keeping her from shaking. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if they hadn't already said the name of another character, I might think that she might be combined with someone who had charms in her hair. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:49] Okay. All right. I see what you're saying. I hope not. But they said that other person's name. So I don't know. Yeah. I think you're right. I think that's going to be a different character later. Yeah. They play different roles. So yeah. Anyway. But the charms thing is anyway. But yeah, obviously, Elida, this gift that was promised of the Amaralyn seat, she didn't realize it was going to be with a 10 year delay. So what happens next?

[00:18:14] Elida enters the hall of the tower with Alviaren, where all the sitters are gathered to vote for the next Amaralyn seat. Either Smaon of the Blue Aja or Elida herself. Many more sisters, including Moraine, watch from the tiers above. Elida is still feeling confident the White Sisters will support her cause.

[00:18:31] But after a brief delay in which it looks like only the Blue Sitters and Varen of the Brown Aja will vote for Swan, far short of the 11 votes needed, Alviaren unexpectedly stands for Swan as well, followed by six others. Swan is sworn in as the new Amaralyn seat, a title she will hold for at least a decade.

[00:18:55] So yeah, they kind of hinted some interesting history here that they obviously didn't have time to go into. But they did mention that the previous Amaralyn was Marth Jean, who was only Amaralyn for four years. And, you know, we can tell she was probably Blue Aja because the keeper was Blue Aja. And so, yeah, we had Marth Jean was only Amaralyn for four years.

[00:19:19] Before that, Sirin Vayu was Gray, who was raised to the Amaralyn, sorry, was only Amaralyn, yeah, yeah, who was raised to the Amaralyn seat for only five years and died mysteriously. And before that, Tamra Aspenia was raised to the Amaralyn seat and died after only six years in her sleep, quote unquote. And Tamra is the one who was Amaralyn when Guitara had her foretelling about Rand being born.

[00:19:48] So in the books, Tamra was also there in the room with Swan and Moraine when this foretelling happened. And basically anyone who found out about this, Black Asha killed, except Swan and Moraine, who got out. So that's kind of why there were like, there's this short succession of really short-lived Amaralyns. And Swan was like kind of the end of that, but then she only lasted 20 years, I guess.

[00:20:19] 10 years, right? Yeah, 10 years, right. Oh, right, right. 20 years since, I mean, 20 whatever years since Rand was born, but I guess it was only 10 years ago that she was raised to the Amaralyn seat. Yeah. Right. So I don't know if the other stuff is the same. Well, thanks for that history, Alyssa. Yeah. It always gets confusing because you're like, these are like very long-lived people. Why are their Amaralyns so short? Because they are messy. Right. Yeah, because Black Asha was in there doing Black Asha stuff. That's right. That's right.

[00:20:48] And anyone who got warned about it was the next one to get Black Asha stuff done to them. But it is interesting that, yeah, I don't know. There's interesting political stuff to be mined there, I guess, is better done in the book about just how strict or progressive different Amaralyns were. But a lot of them, even like Marith, the last blue, was super strict.

[00:21:15] And I think Swan had a pretty good reputation for being strict, right? Like this was not, Swan didn't suffer any fools. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're expected to be a bit dogmatic, which makes it a bit more understandable why people might support Elida. Right. She seems like a strong leader, I suppose. Certainly rigid.

[00:21:45] I don't know if she's strong, but she's rigid. I think Swan, her fatal mistake, as we see in this episode, is truly fatal. I mean, this was a shock to me. Her fatal mistake was hyperfixation on one issue. Mm-hmm. She didn't clean up her own house while she handled Moran's stuff. Well, I think Liana was right.

[00:22:10] Like, obviously, Swan had this extra information from Moraine, where Moraine visited her in her dreams and said, basically, like, the world will, if the White Tower doesn't bow to Rand, the world will fall to the shadow. So, um, but Liana was absolutely right. Like, okay, so you have your reasons for what you want to do. And I understand, as a viewer, she didn't want to say until the very end about, well, Moraine and I are still in love and have been secretly working together all these years.

[00:22:39] Um, but still, like, um, people just think she's being shady, and they have no reason to understand that if she doesn't give them one, if she doesn't at least try to make some kind of explanation. And she was being shady, right? Like, she's being shady for good reasons, but she's still being shady. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, and Elida definitely clocked Swan and Moraine making eyes at each other in this flashback. So she was saving that for later.

[00:23:09] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, I just want to shout out also, this, the styling is always very good. You know, we always have, um, Sharon Gillum is always doing phenomenal work. Did you know the shawls had fringe on them? I did not notice that. But again, fever, fevers did a lot to me when I was watching this. I mean, maybe that's why I loved it so much, is that it was very, it was very, uh, trippy to me at times. It is a trippy episode.

[00:23:37] Um, but yeah, they, they shawls in this flashback, they're also in the tower and they have shawls with long fringe. And that's a, it's a big thing in the books for anyone who doesn't know the, um, I said, I, they don't have to dress in the color of their Aja. Although they often do, they don't always, uh, but they do always have these shawls with colored fringe for their different Aja colors. So, yeah, it was cool to see.

[00:24:01] And I also really liked, um, Liana, Jennifer Cheon's hair, which, you know, credit goes to Davina Lamont's head of makeup and hair, but it was a very, um, apparently Jennifer Cheon's, uh, half Mexican, indigenous Mexican. And I wasn't able to find out what kind, but her hair, the way it was styled and wrapped and stuff, just very striking. Looks like, uh, they've been using a lot of the actors, real roots as inspiration in the costuming. And that was cool.

[00:24:31] That is cool. I want to also say, you know, back to the fringes, maybe that's part of what you're going with, with this laxness of Swan. Like I'm saying she's, she, you know, she's still a little rigid too, but in some ways she's not right. She's losing control of other things. Maybe part of that you're seeing is that they don't wear the shawls anymore. Even in the hall. Yeah. By 10 years into her reign. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Perhaps. So that's, that's just visual storytelling right there, which is very cool. Yeah.

[00:25:02] Yep. Um, yeah. And so there are a maximum of 21 sitters in the hall, uh, three sitters each for seven. Seven Aja's, but they only need 11 to vote, which becomes, uh, an important point in the, in the next part of the story. But, um, just to point out, Leandrin was already a sitter there. She was on the red side and Karen was back in the greens. Karen, who died in episode four of season one. Oh, that's a nice catch. Wow.

[00:25:32] They were like, listen, we need you back for one day. Yeah. And you don't get to say anything, but you can sit in the middle like a queen and we'll give you a badass wig. Like she's like, I'm in. She's like, is there lunch? Like, not coming without a platter. Oh, it'd be cool. I mean, yeah, I would love to be an extra on the, on that show. Yeah. That'd be fun. Um, but yeah, it was a cool callback.

[00:26:01] And, uh, yeah, this, the white Aja is coming more into play as you know, in the books, it's basically Alviarin represents the white Aja, but, um, the white Aja is a logic Aja. But I was talking to people in blue sky about it and how, um, they were explaining to me, you know, sometimes I have trouble wrapping my head around this one and they're explaining to me, it's basically like the scientists.

[00:26:23] So if these colored Ajas existed in the age of legends, um, Mirin Sada, you know, who became Lanfeo, she might've been white Aja. Hmm. That's interesting. I always thought of them as more like legalistic. Um, but maybe I'm wrong. I mean, I know the gray Aja has this like diplomacy thing and that has like a, a level of legalistic thinking to it too.

[00:26:51] But I always thought that the white Aja were like the domestic policy people. Oh no. I mean, yeah, they're, they're like the math and. Yeah. I mean, it could also just contain all of that. Yeah. Yeah. True. And so like the, but like the brown Aja is more the historians and the white Aja is more the scientists. Gotcha. I suppose. Okay. Anyway. All right. I'm fine with that. So I'm going to argue.

[00:27:19] My, my quiz said that I was blue Aja, so I don't have anything to say about the white. That makes sense. My quiz says that I am gray Aja and yeah, that's a, yeah. I would say I'm, I'm hazel Aja. Okay. Yeah. We, we, we all were laughing about doing this silly quiz. I was doing this when I was sick too. I was doing this quiz on a, that somebody shared on the discord of like, which Aja are you? I shared it. Yeah. Oh, you shared it? Mm-hmm. Oh, that's fun. Well, thank you for sharing. Cause it was fun. Yeah.

[00:27:51] Um, question. Do we think that Alviaren in the past supported a Swan because Elida went through that doorway? Like, and she thought that was foolish. I think she supported her because she saw it going the other way. Yeah. Even though there was that pause, that dramatic pause before. And I was like, Karen, why are you not standing as soon as Viren stands? Why are you not with her? Yeah.

[00:28:21] I guess, I, I guess based on where she did it in there, I don't know. I don't know. It could have been because Elida did something that she considered foolish. Um, I, I, I also sometimes think like maybe she just wants to be with whoever is in power, like allied with them. But, but again, like you said, like there was no guarantee of that at that point, but, but she could have thought, you know, playing 5d chess here.

[00:28:48] Like if I go over, the line is done. Yeah. Well, it's very clear that she, I mean, it's clear in the past and it's clear in the, you know, present quote unquote, that she is in charge of the white Aja because the rest of the white Aja just looks at her and does what she does. Yeah, for sure. Wow. Yeah. An interesting character. I don't, I don't think we know enough yet. Mm-hmm. Okay. You want to set up the tower coup?

[00:29:19] In the modern day, following her meeting with Moraine in her dreams in episode six and the warning she gave her there, Swan has been contacting others on behalf of the tower, declaring their support for Rand Althor as the dragon reborn. Liana, Swan's keeper of the chronicles, stresses that Swan needs to get the rest of the tower on her side before she makes such big moves, but it turns out it's already too late.

[00:29:44] Elida and fellow red sister Galena have gone to Alviaren to secure the support of the white Aja. They created a version sending Galena and seven other red sisters out of the tower, eight of them the number needed to gentle a man, so that Swan's inner circle will chase them in a panic.

[00:30:03] In the meantime, Alida and Alviaren convene an emergency session of the hall with the minimum 11 sisters required and inform Swan when she storms in that they have voted to depose Swan and make Alida Amarlin, with Alviaren as her keeper of the chronicles. Yeah, so we see Swan staring at a drawing of Moraine when Leon comes in, so, you know, I'm worried, we'll talk next about the whole death thing,

[00:30:32] but I'm worried about the reaction, but I hope at least people are happy they gave them a really romantic death, I think. Or gave her a romantic death, at least, yeah. I think we've been talking about it all season this was a possibility. Mm-hmm, definitely. And I think it was a smart thing to do. I think we will have a more concise group of people going forward. Yeah, yep. Yeah.

[00:31:02] Just to point out that it's relatively unusual to have a keeper of the chronicles from a different Aja's use, so now we have a red Amarlin with Alviaren as the white, well, keeper of the chronicles. I mean, they're no longer from their Aja's anymore, they are from all and none, but that's where they come from, and that's pretty unusual. I'm thinking Alida had to have been pretty desperate to go back to Alviaren after she let her down last time. Also, it's a sign of weakness to have somebody from another Aja, right?

[00:31:31] That means you couldn't do it with just your own at the helm. Mm-hmm. You needed to make a deal here. Well, you were pointing out that Alida, she has Galina on her side, it seems, but Alida has been at odds with a lot of her Aja because, I don't know, she was pushing harder, or what do you think? I don't know.

[00:31:53] I mean, maybe because she was just off in Camelon, doing Camelon things, and clearly, look, Alida is clearly awful at interpersonal relationships. Right. Like, she is clearly abrasive all the time and doesn't know how to play nice, and that doesn't make you allies. Right.

[00:32:15] And I was thinking about, you know, she was having her beef with Tsutama and got Tsutama, who was the head of the Red Aja, sent out of the tower to go collect Mazram Taim, the false dragon, to go gentle him. And, yeah, I was thinking about their exchange where Tsutama said, oh, that's so gaudy, that's more your taste. And Alida's getting ready, and she's putting on, like, her third necklace, like the biggest earrings you've ever seen. Yeah.

[00:32:43] It looks great on her, but she definitely has a style motif. Yeah, and Alida, like you said, like, she sends people away. She doesn't, she doesn't win you to her side. She'll just, if you're an enemy, she'll just send you away. And that's the kind of leadership style we see here, right? This is going to be someone who rules based on, you know, fear and, like, power is power kind of idea. Right. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:33:11] Although, you know, I am totally with Lyanna that Swan, it's really messed up that Swan didn't tell Lyanna everything. And maybe it was to protect her, but in the end, Lyanna went down with Swan, and she was always going to share her fate because she's her keeper of the Chronicles. Did we see her final fate? I don't think we saw her die, right? No, she didn't die. Lyanna didn't die. No. Lyanna looks like she was shielded. Okay, all right. Yeah.

[00:33:39] But she was right when she said you were giving Lyanna a wedge to drive between you and our sisters. So, just hashtag Lyanna was right. So, they steal Swan and shield Lyanna and lock them up. Later, they drag a bloodied Swan back into the tower, and she admits everything, that she loves Moraine, the foretelling they heard from Katara that sent them on their search for the dragon, the need to support him now.

[00:34:05] Now, Swan is declared a dark friend and a traitor to the tower and beheaded on the spot. First of all, before we get into the tragedy of her death, how beautiful was it, her being stilled? So, we saw in season one, they pull like an inky black cloud out of Logaine because of the taint on the male half of power. And this, we see the contrast where they pull like a rainbow out of Swan with hooks.

[00:34:36] Yeah, I, you know, I think there's going to be some book hooks about this one because it's not quite like as clean as it is in the books. This like, you know, severing this bond. It seemed a lot more, uh, one by one pull out the strands kind of thing. Hmm. I don't know. I feel like that was a lie to being a drama queen. No, you think so? You don't think that's necessary? I mean, that's not what they did to Logaine, but I don't know.

[00:35:06] Those are the only two examples we've seen so far. Yeah, that's true. That's true. And they did, you know, they did Logaine in season one. And we are now in season three and in season two, they redid the entire channeling structure. The effects. Oh, oh, the V. Yeah, they keep improving. I mean, because I think with VFX like that, probably they spent the first season just getting like the physics of the strands.

[00:35:30] And then once they have that base every season, they can have more money and time invested into improving and building upon what they have. So, yeah, but I think they like made a deliberate change in the visuals between season one and two in in the way that like there's like colors now and different kinds of elements. Yeah, they keep building every season. Yeah. Yeah. So I so maybe they would have if they had thought of it done that with Logaine in season one. Yeah.

[00:36:00] I mean, well, it's also he's he's he was going mad already. You know, he's corrupted with the taint. So they made it. I thought it looked really cool what they did. They made it black because of that. So I thought it was I'm glad it looks like that. And this was that contrast. OK. But I am I am bracing myself for Brazil's reaction to Swan's death. I have to say the Soirane fans seem to be strongest in Brazil.

[00:36:25] I mean, it's been a thing for a while that whenever Swan and Moraine don't spend enough time together, there are people commenting online like, oh, why aren't they spending? And all the book readers are like, this is not the Swan and Moraine love story. That is just not what this story is. So in a way, I'm glad they pulled a bandaid there. Yeah. And I think they gave it a really good end.

[00:36:50] Like the way her death was layered with Moraine's near death was just very romantic and tragic. And, you know, she says, I am Swan Sanche, daughter of the river, water itself. And I defy you. So that was a sad. Yeah, she like spat it at her. It was great. Yeah. Great. Great performance. I thought they were going to kill Moraine there, too, when they were. Yeah. I thought it was very possible if they just kill off Moraine right there. Yeah.

[00:37:20] I thought so, too. I thought so, too. Rosamund Pike is like, I've sold my house in Prague. You are not getting me back. No. No, she I mean, she actually said in in the interview with David Tennant, she's like, I really love I just want them to renew the wheel of time because I want to do more of it. But she was saying how the the younger cast, like the ran parent and all that, they have all become like mentors to her kids. Oh, yeah. I thought it was nice.

[00:37:45] It seems like a really great group of people, you know, like they just, yeah, I don't know. I don't mean to make judgments, but they seem like good people. Give them. She was saying it's her first multi-season show playing a character, you know, like this is like the longest she's ever played a character. Yeah. Yeah. And it sounds like, you know, because they have to travel to these, you know, in this case, they're going to the middle of the desert in South Africa and in tents together and stuff. And, uh, yeah, um, I think it's a really intense bonding experience.

[00:38:16] Yeah. And look, I, as you know, have complained about them trying to make it the Rosamund Pike show when it's not about Moraine. Like she's just not the main character. Um, but I, I do think they fixed that a lot in season three, especially, but even in season two, they, they did a good job toning it down a little bit. Yeah. Um, and I, I, I like her better after that interview, but I also just really liked her this season. I thought her performance was a lot more Moraine to me. She felt like she inhabited the character a lot better. Yeah.

[00:38:46] Yeah. I mean, I think they also, they balanced it better because, but they did also, it is part of the book story in the main end, a big part of the season story. We'll talk about it in a bit, but, um, her relationship with Rand where. Yeah. They start to come to a new understanding. It just takes, you know, carrying her back several miles in the desert. Right. To make it be like, maybe I should be nicer to this woman. Right. Well, okay.

[00:39:13] So, um, I guess this is a good place to take our first break after just 45 minutes of jabbering. We have two more sections to go. So let's, uh, we'll come back and switch to 10 Chico. All right.

[00:39:48] Do you want to give me like a Chia Pat theme song for like 10 Chico? To 10 Chico. The hills of 10 Chico. No, sorry. Do you want to take us into the pet? But he said, I saw somebody actually comment about us on Reddit and say that they had just gotten the song out of their head and then they listened to our podcast. Sorry. I'm not going to help you there. Get it out of my head.

[00:40:16] Although I have to say since last week, it's been, um, sing for Minethrin, sing of Minethrin in my head. All right. Well, good. We, we got to have some variety. Uh, we're going into the Panarchs Palace. Yeah. The anger finds the two remaining black Aja sisters chilling in their hideout. Uh, surprisingly sanguine after the other two of their number just disappeared or turned up dead.

[00:40:43] Chesmal Emery, the former member of the yellow Aja who never heals humans. Only cats is attending to some feline friends. And Jeanne Cade, the formerly green sister with the white streak in her hair, who has presumably already killed poor fellow from the tavern in episode six, is playing with one of her stolen terongreal, the Balefire Rod.

[00:41:08] Leandhrin tells them to get their shit together because it's time to break into the Panarchs Palace and look for that collar that goes with the cuffs that they can use to capture a male channeler. But just then, conveniently, Mogidion, still posing as a servant, enters the room to offer Leandrin the other cuff from the set, which she took from Nynaeve and Aline in episode six. She says that a peddler who stopped by had it.

[00:41:32] And as a humble servant who does not offer her own name, she took it upon herself to buy it, knowing that Leandrin was looking for something like it. Leandrin straps on both cuffs and enlives Jeanne and Chesmal to the palace to find the collar. Uh, yeah, I love that they leaned into Chesmal being a cat lady because that is a thing from the books. Um, the terongreal, the Balefire Rod, that is also a thing from the books.

[00:42:01] And we'll talk more about what Balefire is when we see what it does later in the episode. But, um, yeah, this is, this is kind of a big deal for book readers. But yeah, I love Leandrin's attitude. Naomi died because she challenged me. Now put that terongreal down. And Jeanne is like, okay, fine. But, um, yeah, she is wrong about Ispan Moghetti and Kildur, not Leandrin. Yeah, she is wrong. Yeah.

[00:42:29] And then, uh, Nineveh and Matt are eating noodles at a food stall on the street when they see the three Black Aja members stalk by, so they follow them, gathering up Elaine, Min, and Tom. They enter the palace as well, finding the guards already dead by Leandrin's hand. They split up into groups of two to try to find the collar before the Black Aja does.

[00:42:47] Um, and we got a shout out to the Panarch Amathera, Amathera, which, she's, she's a character who has her own arc in the stories, but I'm guessing this means we'll likely never see her in the show. It's skippable anyway. It's not that great an arc. Yeah, I know. She's, she's an extra character who, yeah, it's not important to the central story per se, except for, like, in this particular part of it, which, as they showed, she doesn't really need to be there. Right.

[00:43:17] Right. Yeah, they left out another major character in this too, that I wonder if they're not going to bring in. Which one? A much more major character, I should say. Which one? A Gaanan. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. I was going to complain about that later, but. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's why I, I didn't want to say it. Yeah, no, I mean, you know, even at the end of the, I mean, I've, I've brought her up before. This is a character who I was hoping would, would turn up this season and she didn't turn up and a luger didn't turn up.

[00:43:47] Yeah. All right. So I'll mark all this. Well, no, I think it's okay to talk about characters who. Okay. Don't turn up. Yeah. But yeah, so they have, Matt says to Tom, I thought you didn't want to get wrapped up in this old man. And he says, well, I have this thing about watching kids die. I try to stop it if I can. And he's eyeing Elaine in a kind of fatherly way. I love his like, so not subtle, like full house sitcom look.

[00:44:15] Like he is straight up Bob Sagetting his like long, full fatherly look at Elaine. Yeah. He's like, I knew you when you were a lass. I feel like you could, you could edit them together and like everywhere you look. Well, I love that they actually, cause that is one thing I said after episode six. I was like, oh, I want more conversation between them about, you know, the background about the fact that he used to be at the court. Um, and yeah, so we, we get that.

[00:44:44] We get memories and bale fire. You got your Tom Lursations. My, my what? Your Tom Lursations. Tom Lursations? Tom Lursations. Tom. Oh, it's a conversation. Tom, Tom Versations. I got it. But Tom, Tom Elaine, Tom Lane Sations. Got it. Tom Lane Versations. It's over. We can't do it. Inside. They split up. Leaving Tom and Elaine on their own.

[00:45:14] He remembers what a clever little girl she was during his time at court. He says she was about five years old when he left. And she says that she barely remembers him. Ouch. She says that must have been before Lord Gabriel and her mother got together. And Tom says he's been monitoring the happenings at court. And he would know if her mother had a prince consort. He tells her there must be a forsaken in her household. And, um, yeah.

[00:45:40] So, of course, Morgays and Gabriel have only actually been together a couple of months. But everyone that Robin put the compulsion on thinks... Robin said a decade earlier in the season. But Elaine, this time, she says, as long as I can remember. So, I don't know. I guess it's unevenly implied, which makes sense. Guys, in a totally non-creepy way, I did leave a nanny cam set up in Morgays' bedroom. Yeah. I'm monitoring the courts. Like, okay, Tom.

[00:46:09] Why are you monitoring the court? Yeah, yeah. I do think that was a thing in the books, too. Is, like, he just... No, yeah, sure. He really cared about Morgays. And he wanted to make sure that she was okay afterward. Yeah, and he says... Monitoring in a way of, like, getting gossip. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, just, you know, what's going on with the Camelon household and stuff. But he also says he made a promise to Morgays a long time ago to protect Elaine. So, I guess that's part of it, too. Yeah.

[00:46:42] Interestingly, Elaine talks about delving, as in finding ore. And we talked about this in the Talents lore cast. Yeah, I actually thought about you when they brought that up. Because I was like, oh, at least she's going to bring that up. Because she said, I don't know if we're going to get it in the show. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because Egwene learned about this during her time with the Sean Chan in the books. But they skipped over that in the show. So, it's interesting. They bring it up now. They have Elaine bring it up now. But, of course, Elaine would know. Because Elaine likes to study things. Right.

[00:47:12] Yeah. She's the Hermione. I love, by the way, in this scene, did you notice that the cats are just casually eating the dead guards in the background? While Elaine and Tom bond. Like, they just do not give a fuck. Oh, my God. I didn't notice that, but that's hilarious. Do you want to take us through the next part? Just then, Jane shows up to call Morgueze a slut and a fight ensues.

[00:47:39] She tries to strike the pair with the power of her Balefire Rod, instead at one point damaging a ceiling. Tom is ready to sacrifice himself to let Elaine get away. But Elaine sneaks up behind Jane and knocks her over, taking the Balefire Rod, which she then uses on Jane. We see her timeline unwind slightly, the ceiling she hit repairing itself. So, I love that Tom threw some knives.

[00:48:04] But also, we got our first Balefire, but I'm sure that non-readers are like, what was that? So, basically, Balefire erases you from the pattern. And it'll erase also, it'll undo, depending on how strong the Balefire is, it'll undo some action. So, we saw it seems like it unwound her only a couple of moments this time. And so, it put the ceiling back together.

[00:48:33] But that guy that she killed maybe yesterday, let's say, he's probably still dead. Yeah, but Tom and Elaine remember what happened. They saw all this, and they know that the ceiling got repaired. So, the physical effects revert, but memories remain, right? Do you agree with that? Yeah. That's right. That's right. And it's usually just like a few seconds for most people. It's only if you're like extremely powerful with your Balefire that it could be like minutes or more. Right, right.

[00:49:02] But it does erase you from the pattern so that you cannot be reborn or anything like that. Like, you are gone, gone. Is it a spoiler to say that's not true? I guess not. Okay, I'm misremembering. It's not true. This was a theory that someone posits at one point, but it is eventually proven untrue. It does not erase you from the pattern.

[00:49:24] The reason it is tricksy is that, and I don't know how spoiler this is going to get, so tell me if we need to cut it. But the Dark One can't pluck someone out because their moment of death was erased. He can't revive one of the forsaken or something like that because their moment of death would have been erased.

[00:49:46] We saw him revive, for instance, Lanfear in Season 2 when she got, Moraine slit her throat, and then we saw that she got like the black flecks in her eyes. It's called Saw, and that means that the true power was running through her to revive her. Yeah, that's like a thing. Like, the Dark One is like the lord of death, and so the Dark One can, at the moment of death, be like, no, you go back. Like, put the soul back in the body, shove it back in, let's go.

[00:50:15] But if a forsaken or somebody else that Dark One's trying to save is hit with Belfire, the Dark One can't do that. Right, okay, okay. That's the big weakness with Belfire. There was someone positing that Belfire completely erases your soul, and then it's eventually determined. I don't remember how. That like, no, it just, you can't do that, right? Like, you're not going to be able to erase a soul from the pattern. That is too much. Okay, okay.

[00:50:45] But it does, it is banned because it can cause the pattern to become unstable. It was being used a lot during the War of the Shadow, and yeah, it can, if you do too much, it causes problems. It's like poking a bunch of holes in the pattern. Yeah, even the Shadow people were like, hey, let's not do this anymore. This is not being, this is not getting good. Yeah.

[00:51:05] So it is funny, you know, the way you put it, I mean, not funny, but it's chilling to think about Rand with El Cera and how he was trying to revive her and shove that power back into her at her moment of death. It was almost, and he was saying, I can do anything. It was almost like he was trying to be the Dark One in that moment. That's true. That's true. I never thought of it like that. Hmm. That's spooky. Hmm.

[00:51:34] All right, shall we talk about some gifts from foxes? Sure. So Matt and Min, meanwhile, find a room full of what we would call antiquities, including stuffed animals recognizable to us, but also others like boars with two sets of tusks. Inside is a twisted red doorframe. Not realizing it's the doorway from Min's vision, Matt simply walks through.

[00:51:56] On the other side, there's a foxman creature known as an eelfin who tells Matt it's been a long time since someone came through that door, but by the ancient treaty, here is agreement made. He confirms that Matt is not carrying iron, musical instruments, or light-making devices, and then he asks Matt his need, calling him by name. Matt may make three requests.

[00:52:20] A confused Matt eventually chokes out that he needs a way to stop being bollocksed about by magic, that he needs to get these memories from the horn out of his head, and he needs to get back. The eelfin tells Matt he was wise to ask for passage back, but unwise not to set a price. Can I interject one thing? The eelfin did not say done when Matt said get the memories from the horn out of my head. He said it when Matt said fix me.

[00:52:51] And so I wonder what the actual wish grant was. Fix me. Okay. It was something like fix me. You think he might be severed? I just need someone to fix me, you know? Yeah. And like, what does that mean? Hmm. Okay. Like he could be severed from the horn or something? I don't know. That would be a big change, by the way. But anyway. Yeah, I know. Who knows? Okay.

[00:53:23] While Matt is on the other side of the door, Chesmall enters the room where Min is, so Min hides. And Matt is sent back through the doorway in a noose. Chesmall watches him gasp for air until Min pops out of the shadows to bonk Chesmall over the head, knocking her out, and cut Matt down and resuscitate him. He's now wearing a silver pendant of a fox head, but has the mark of the noose around his neck, and he no longer remembers why they are there. There are holes in his memory.

[00:53:54] So, yeah. This was the, Alida went to see the ale fin. This was an eel fin. They'll definitely look different, but, you know, as we said, it's kind of unclear how they're remixing the lore. Did you notice? So, there's only one eel fin in there, and that's definitely, I think, a budgetary, a budget thing. Yeah. But then they had the other diocese. There are dioceses around the room. They're all empty, and there's rotting corpses.

[00:54:24] Beside them with, like, red fur stuck to them. But I also wondered if it could also be corpses of people who forgot to ask for a way back. I think that's probably, too, because he goes, you were wise to ask for a way back. Not quite wise to not set a price, right? Right. That was so good. I just love this portrayal of the eel fin. We didn't talk about the portrayal of Balefire, which I'm a little more skeptical about. Okay. It's a little lasery for me. Mm-hmm.

[00:54:52] But maybe it's because it's the rod. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. But the eel fin, I thought, I mean, perfect. I would never have thought to do it that way, and I also think it's perfect. Yeah, because, I mean, the fact they went full CGI, I was somewhat surprised by it. But, you know, we saw, like, there were people who saw pictures of Lanfear in costume in this episode. And we're like, is that going to be, it was hard to tell that it was her.

[00:55:22] It's like, is that going to be the eel fin? You know, is that like a snake look? Yeah. So, I would have been happy if they just did, like, some dramatic costuming, but they went full Fox. Yeah. I think this was good. I think this was good the way they did it. But, you know, I do love a good practical effect, but some things are, like, so otherworldly that you just have to go full CGI. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:48] Yeah, and just to point out, so the doorways, there are two in the books also, but in the books, one is in the Stone of Tear, and that's the one that's in Tar Valon now. And this doorway was in Roydean rather than in Tanchico because Matt went to the waste with Rand, and while Rand was walking through the columns, he was talking to the eel fin through the doorway. And then Rand saved him from hanging. Yeah.

[00:56:15] One joke that we couldn't have because only Matt and not other people, and I won't tell you which other people, and it's not just, like, the people who were around. So don't worry, I'm not spoiling anything. But the one thing that we lost by Matt being the only one going in is that there was a great joke where they're all out, and they're all like, oh, yeah, there was a translator, too. And he's like, why did you guys get translators?

[00:56:43] Because, of course, Matt speaks the old tongue, and he just didn't need the translator. It's just funny. It's just funny. But it was interesting. I thought they were going to stick right with the old tongue the whole time, and they didn't in this. Yeah. I think that's a typical TV thing. Like, how quickly can we find an excuse to switch to English? Yeah. And I'm fine with it. Like, I don't want to do the whole thing in old tongue. No, that's fine. Do you think that Matt will still remember going through the door and remember the eel fin?

[00:57:13] Or do you think that's one of the memories he lost? Oh, I have no idea. I think he'll remember. I think he'll remember. Okay. It is interesting to hear him say he longs for a world without magic, and he describes a world that sounds just like ours. I'm like, I'll switch with you, dude. Yeah, fair enough. Yeah. It would be more fun to live with magic. Mm-hmm. All right.

[00:57:39] So then we get to the Holy Moses moment. Leandrin searches the endless treasures of the palace for the collar, unknowingly dumping it on the floor at one point because it looks like a simple circlet until it's put on. Unlike Leandrin, Nynaeve knows that the collar will look like a silver ring when not in use, so she's able to spot it on the floor of the room where Leandrin unknowingly dumped it.

[00:58:07] But Leandrin finds Nynaeve and takes the collar from her. The part of her that wanted her son, her weakness as she calls him to die, wishes the same for Nynaeve. She ties Nynaeve in chains and throws her into the bay, knowing that Nynaeve cannot channel because of her block. Under the water, Nynaeve struggles, but then thinks of her daughter that never was, making peace with her death. Surrendering herself allows her to break through her block and channel.

[00:58:31] She not only removes her chains, but she parts the water like Moses and just walks right out. So what did you think of this? Fantastic. 10 out of 10. And incorporating this development of Leandrin that we almost like, I thought we were going to just let that go. I thought that was just a one season gimmick of Nynaeve trusting Leandrin when she shouldn't have. But then we get to this season and we have a huge payoff.

[00:59:00] Because this is how, in a way, how Nynaeve breaks her block in the book. But it doesn't happen until a later book. And it's kind of an accident that she's drowning. Whereas in this, is it an accident that she's drowning? I don't even remember now. No. Well, it was, but this, that one was, it was a conflict with Mogedion. And clearly they're setting up conflicts with Mogedion as well. But yeah, I agree with you. Just the fact that she, yeah, I think that was book seven. And so this season's mostly book four.

[00:59:31] So they brought it forward. I'm not sad about that at all. I think that's great. But Nynaeve not being like, I just can't do it. Unless I Hulk out is exhausting. It's exhausting. And post-block Nynaeve is the superior Nynaeve. Yes, I agree. I agree. Yeah. And I agree with you also that I don't mind at all that they subbed in Leandrin with this because of that interesting relationship they've built between the two of them. It served both of their character arcs to have this moment. Yeah.

[01:00:01] It's absolutely fantastic. I thought it was great. Especially just to, especially because Leandrin spent a whole season trying to break Nynaeve's block unsuccessfully only to accidentally do it by trying to kill her. When she, yeah. When she's like, I give up on you. Right. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing writing there. Do you think, so we saw Nynaeve kind of trying to convert to like, have I talked to you about our good Lord, the light? The creator.

[01:00:30] But do you think Nynaeve will still want to save Leandrin after this? No. I think she's done. And I hope so. I hope she tells Leandrin to kick rocks. Hear that, John? His expression is becoming popular. That's right. But yeah, so they also point out, we should say, that Matt and Min in their conversation, even if they had the color, they don't know how to destroy.

[01:01:00] But it's definitely worse that Leandrin and Mogedion have it. Because Leandrin's making a deal with the spider. Leandrin finds Mogedion in the palace by now having figured out who she actually is. And she admits to her that she wants to become one of the Chosen, the Forsaken's name for themselves.

[01:01:19] But that Mogedion, she argues that Mogedion should keep her alive because Mogedion will need other Chosen, weaker in the power than her, to do her bidding once she manages to kill off the others. Mogedion takes back the cuff she gave to Leandrin. And Leandrin offers her the collar as well, asking to work together to collar the dragon. They form an uneasy truce. Is this the beginning of a beautiful friendship? It's the beginning of something.

[01:01:49] I don't know if beautiful is the word I'd use for it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is one of the relationships I definitely want more seasons to see how it plays out. I feel like those two would run a really good call-in podcast. What would it be called? Like Advice That Cuts. Mm-hmm. You know? Advice that slices.

[01:02:19] Advices that slices. Yeah. I mean, I think that they've created a more interesting layered dynamic between these two. So I'm happy about that. Yeah. I think very interesting stuff. Like I said, Leandrin, like she's interesting for a while and then she's not really that interesting in the books. And I'm fine with them making her more interesting, more consistently.

[01:02:45] I think whatever characters they combine, the characters that they leave behind need to really pull their own weight the whole time. Yeah. Because it's something you can do in a book series. Like I'm not even complaining about it. Like in a book series, you can just have characters come in and out more often because you're not worried about like, is the actor going to have work that year? Are we going to get scheduling together? But like here, you have to get bang for your buck with your characters. Right. And for viewers, it's better, you know, they form attachments to.

[01:03:16] We've also seen more from Alana, which she becomes a more important character later in the book. And they've beefed her up from the beginning. And I know a lot of this has to do with their fan favorites. Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right. Shall we take another quick break and then cut to the waste for the finale? Yeah, I'll see you there. The finale of the finale.

[01:04:02] Okay, John, what's up with the other Forsaken in the Waste? I like your title here, the Forsaken Disassemble. After being struck down by Rand at the end of episode six, the Forsaken Samal is now shielded and in Moraine's custody. With Lanfear's help, she has him trapped to try to force him to teach Rand to use his powers the way that Mal Aes Sedai could in the Age of Legends.

[01:04:30] But while Moraine is out, he gets a visit from Mogidion, who uses his extra weakened state as the perfect opportunity to take her blood freezing antics to the next level. And she figures out presumably very slowly and painfully whether it's possible for her to kill another Forsaken. It seems the answer is yes. And Lanfear and Robin later find Samal hollowed out and strung up by hardened strands of his own blood.

[01:04:54] And Lanfear tells Robin that his special alliance won't protect him long and tries to entice him to go after Kalandor in the Stone of Tear before Rand does. Robin says he wants to be on Lanfear's side, but questions whether she could really kill Rand. Though she says she is ready to kill Rand. So, Samal, most creative death this season? I'd say so.

[01:05:24] I, by the way, read it as blood vessels. That's what I thought they were. Oh, okay. Well, because they were kind of like, well, I was thinking because we saw her do the blood freezing thing with Jaichem. Yeah, no, you're right. I think you're actually right. I was just reading those blood vessels that it was making me really squeamish, so I kept looking away. Yeah, no, I mean, either way, super creepy. Because we saw it kind of like chant. It was like blood bending from Avatar, The Last Airbender. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've only watched a little bit of Korra, but I remember that from there.

[01:05:53] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love, I mean, we didn't get much of Samuel this season. You know, I think Cameron Jack, the actor did a great job. No shade to him, but also I'm like, I think it's totally fine to kill Samuel at this point. He doesn't really live that much longer in the books. They did. We did get a little last minute exposition about how that scar across his face was from loose Theron and he refused to have it healed out of spite.

[01:06:21] And he was one of the greatest generals in the age of legends. He says he reinvented the art of war in the peaceful age of legends. So he was kind of a real asshole then. He was a real asshole. Imagine bragging about that. Yeah. It's wild. Yeah. I mean, RIP Sammy, you're not gone too soon, but I will always remember the way you called Lanfear a rug.

[01:06:52] Oh boy. Yeah. I'm fine with him being on. I think we got a wheedled, wheedled, whittle. Oh my God. Whittle down our roster of Forsaken. It's, it's, you know, it's been a long week, Alicia. I am just, I'm not talking right. Yeah. Well, it's a lot. We're going through in this episode too. Um, we, so we know the Samael is the weakest in the Forsaken other than Mogadian,

[01:07:20] but it also seems like he's weaker than Loghain. Okay. So I'm presuming this whole tying off the shield thing. I'm assuming that Lanfear taught that to Moraine and then Moraine's like, yeah, that's a handy trick. Um, but now, but remember Loghain season one had to have two sisters on him at all times. They didn't know how to tie it off, but he was really pushing back against it. And it doesn't seem like Samael is as strong as him. Is that the sense you get? Yeah. I mean, that could be for sure.

[01:07:49] It could also just be a little bit of inconsistency here where they're like that guy, we need him to die and we didn't need Loghain to die there. I don't know. I think I'm going to take it as Loghain strong. Yeah. Yeah. Very well. It could be. I mean, it's just like in with that in mind, it is very arrogant of him to think that he could take on Rand. And I think clearly Lanfear was egging him on probably some of the other Forsaken too.

[01:08:17] They were just like goading him on as a sacrifice, which is typical and messed up of them. But, um, we were asked to do a Forsaken check-in in the finale. So just, we have some information about the power rankings. That was another question we got. So we know it seems a Shamiel was the strongest RIP. I guess Lanfear is second in this telling because this is why she assumes she's Nabless,

[01:08:46] which is the name of the leader of the Forsaken after Shamiel's death, even though the Dark One doesn't seem to be talking to her. Mm-hmm. Um, so the three- I think she's, she's in Denabless Nile. Uh, Den, Denial Bliss. Yeah. Yeah. Um, the three Forsaken we have not met, Grandal, Semarag, and the mystery final Forsaken,

[01:09:10] they must be in the middle because we know Mogedion's the weakest, Samuel was the second weakest, and now Lanfear says that Raven is the next weakest after that. Yeah. I wonder why they're keeping one of the Forsaken so secret. Hmm. Um, we'll talk about that in the White Tower corner. All right. I have thoughts. I have thoughts. Okay. Yeah.

[01:09:35] But I do think it was interesting, you know, we had basically Samael, he was the weakest made weaker by shielding, so he was kind of like just a bug caught in a web, which is a perfect spider snake. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, but yeah, this means Rand is going to need a different Forsaken teacher and someone, it must be a male Forsaken so that, uh, because that's how they see the weaves. So the options are either Raven or the mystery final Forsaken. Yeah.

[01:10:06] I mean, I'm okay if he doesn't get a Forsaken teacher too. It would be, it'd be nice, but. Well, they've said he needs one. Yeah. I was kind of looking forward to Samael being his teacher. Hmm. I thought that would have been fun to get his little Scottish. Yeah. We could have at least gotten a lesson before he died, but then again, yeah, they did a lot this episode, so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I am not sure. Well, I guess they didn't, they didn't have to kill him this episode either. They could have just not, they could have just not visited that again until next season.

[01:10:35] But then we wouldn't have gotten the Forsaken blood vessels strung up across the cave. To put it in episode one of the next season, you know? Yeah. It was a cool scene though. Um, I, I am curious about what Lanfear says to Robin. You rejected my help once and look where it got you. So when did he reject her help? We haven't seen that, right? This is a thing we don't know about. I think we did see that. That was when they were all like laughing at her earlier in their, in their last social

[01:11:04] earlier in the season. But what did she offer to help with? She was like, Oh, you're right. She didn't offer to help with anything. She just asked for an alliance. Right. She's like, I think you're right. I think you're right. This is a different thing. I don't know. Or maybe, Hmm. Maybe she sees it as offering help, but he didn't argue with her. So I don't know. I don't know. I think, I think where you convinced me is where she says, and look where it got you. Like he's doing fine right now. Right. Right.

[01:11:34] So maybe it's something. It must have been in the past sometime. Yeah. Maybe it has something to do with him turning, joining the shadow. Yeah. That could be. Or maybe something against Luz Theron. Everyone, everyone's got a grudge against Luz Theron. We've learned. Mm-hmm. Nobody likes Luz except Ileana. Yeah. So do you want to set up the trap for Lanfear? The Lanfear trap. Is that a parent trap parody?

[01:12:04] Mm-hmm. I love it. That's great. After harvesting the deceased Alcera's little green squashes, Ran joins Egwene to visit the Wise Ones for a little dream make walking. Uh, he appears in Teleron Riod to confront Lanfear about what he learned about her tormenting Egwene. She says the only reason she swore her dark oaths is that the other option is death, but she still wants to find a way to kill the Dark One to free all of humanity from his evil.

[01:12:32] And if she can grab some power in the process, what's the harm in that? When Lanfear brings up Ran's last life, Ran says he is leaving her for the same reason Luz Theron did, because she's a jealous, petty bitch. Lanfear loses her temper and summons swirling glops of the inky true power. But then Egwene appears in front of Ran using her dream walking training to banish Lanfear from the dream.

[01:12:59] Ran and Egwene wake up and wait with Moraine, Lan, Avienda, and the Wise Ones. Assuming a pissed off Lanfear is about to appear, they stand ready to trap her. But she's smarter than they gave her credit for and decides to go cause trouble somewhere else instead. So I have to say the squash harvest was not as sad as I expected. But I do appreciate that the soundtrack made sure to remind us of G-E-T-O.

[01:13:30] Yeah. Do you think that they overplayed their hand by having Egwene enter Ran's dream? How so? Like, if they didn't do that, if Ran had just woken up, Lanfear might have just come. But because Egwene went in, it was clearly orchestrated. Right. Yeah, that's true. I mean, it would have been super, I really think they underestimated her intelligence there. It would have been very stupid of her to go. Yeah.

[01:14:00] Yeah. But still, I think they would have had more of a shot had Ran just disappeared. I think you have a good point. Yeah. Silly, silly Aes Sedai. Silly, silly. I also, I have a question. So I was theorizing, I guess, in the lore cast that where the boar opened is where Shia Ogul is now. But apparently in the dream where Ran met Lanfear in the random woods somewhere, not the blight,

[01:14:29] that was where the shirom crashed. Oh, really? That's what they said. Yeah. That is really interesting. Hmm. I do think Lanfear has a little bit of delusion. She's like, oh, so Egwene told you. I knew she would. Like, as if Egwene did anything wrong. Like, yeah, she told him because obviously she would tell him. I mean, Lanfear is. That's not sister code or something. She is eternally delulu. Mm-hmm.

[01:14:59] As the kids say. Yeah. And she claims she's the only one who wouldn't bow to lose Theron. I'm like, well, Samuel said otherwise. Rogue. Born to be the Rizzler, stuck being delulu. Absolutely. Um, and I do think also the other thing Lanfear does, which is very true to the books, is she's, she's constantly conflating lose Theron and Rand. And every time she does it, she loses Rand a bit more because he's like, I'm not that guy. I am myself.

[01:15:28] I am a different person. Yeah. And I don't blame him. Like, I don't want to be like my past souls. I don't, I don't want to be responsible for everything that motherfucker did, especially that guy. Like, yeah. Yeah. It was cool. We see Lanfear using the true power a lot this episode. So the true power is different from the one power. The one power is like what we see the Aes Sedai channeling and the one power is what we normally see Rand channeling.

[01:15:56] But Lanfear's black goo is the true power. Like this is, you know, what she was boring through the pattern to get to is this, this quote unquote true source. It turns out to be the dark one. So it's very powerful, but it's not the same thing as like the black stuff around Rand's channeling, which is the taint on the male half of the one power, Sideen. So I don't know if you can clarify that at all. Yeah.

[01:16:26] I mean, the, the true power basically is the dark one and the taint on the one power is like the dark one kind of putting a spell on the one power to like taint anyone who uses it. Right. Right. So they both come from the dark one, but the true power is like a direct source and the taint is sort of like a curse in a way. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

[01:16:51] So Lanfear's, she first visits Melindra, Taishar, Melkir. She's a Melkiri born maiden of the shield who has been making friends with the Lan. And it turns out that Melindra is a dark friend. Lanfear calls in her oaths, sending her to kill Lan. Only when the time comes, Melindra can't go through with it. She says that she joined the shadow because she thought it would help Melkir. So she can't kill the would be king of her country.

[01:17:17] She would rather die a true death as happens to those who break their dark oaths, never to be reborn into the pattern. She would rather that than to harm the best hope her country has of its own rebirth. So that's, that's, um, an addition from the show that I don't mind. Uh, well, first of all, everything about Melindra's story arc is, is, is different. Um, it's short and sweet in the show, very different, but at least she made it on screen

[01:17:47] unlike some other characters. Um, but she definitely does not get this hero's death in the book and this whole no rebirth. If you break the dark oaths is an addition to. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think we've ever seen someone die from breaking their dark oaths in the books, right? We never actually find out the consequences for breaking them. Right. I mean, just like the dark one will punish you basically. Yeah. He's like evil Santa. He knows. Right.

[01:18:16] But it's not like the oath rod where it's like an automatic thing. Mm-hmm. Right. Exactly. Right. Yeah. Um, what did you think about the, the connection they created between her and Len this season? I thought it was fine. I, I think it's good to be reminded of this Malkyr stuff because it kind of just disappears for a while in the books and then they're like, Hey, remember that? Yeah. Yeah. I think that was fine.

[01:18:45] I, I, I didn't love it. Like it didn't do much for me, but I, I think it's fine to remind. And I, I think it would have been better if they would have just left it at her, him seeing the tattoo. Hmm. I don't know. I mean, they have to resolve. So in the books, she's a dark friend. She was linked to Matt because again, Matt was in the waste with them and she tries to kill Matt and Matt kills her. So, um, I like this, this also, she says to him, you are Malkyr.

[01:19:14] You are the golden crane, Alain Mandragorn. Um, I mean, and she also says this, this classic line that we hear, especially land say in the books, death is lighter than, than a feather duty heavier than a mountain. Uh, so that kind of when he, he's definitely going to say that line again later and it has a bit more emotional weight now. Yeah, that's true. I think that's effective.

[01:19:41] Uh, although I have to point out that that line is not Robert Jordan didn't write it. He, it comes from this 1882 Japanese Imperial re-script to soldiers and sailors, which, uh, has this line. This was a favorite of a general. Oh, that's really interesting. I didn't know that. Yeah. I didn't know that either until I was, I was looking it up. I was trying to see where it appeared in the books and it appears more than once, but, uh, yeah. Yeah. It's all the, all over the place in the books. Yeah.

[01:20:09] I was trying to see when the first time it appears is, but it seems like, it seems like it's a Malkiri thing, especially, but it's said a few times by a few different people. Yeah. Yeah. Um, Rand, Rand, I think thinks it a bunch too is like when, when he, cause cause land trains him. So we just adopt this whole thing. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And we also saw Melindra when she showed up to kill land, but obviously she never intended that. She has a Kisan on her forehead. That's the red dot on her forehead.

[01:20:39] And this is something that all Malkiri adult women have on their forehead. Red means that you're married. So I guess it's because she's married to the spear. Yeah. That must be. Cause they can't be married to men or women. Like they can't be married to a person. Right. Yeah. She's married to the spear basically. Yeah. Anyway, that was a cool call out. Yeah. So what does land fear do next?

[01:21:08] The double, double dragon arms. Land fear is next stop is to visit the side. Visit the shadow specifically false. Wise one. Savannah and cool. It wait. Is she a false side? Wise one. Well, doesn't she? Maybe not yet, but she kind of like pretends to play the role of a wise one, but she has not gone. Wise one. She, she didn't go through the rings and stuff.

[01:21:34] She just was married to the chief and held onto power after he died. Oh, okay. Land fear. His next stop is to visit the shadow specifically false wise one. Savannah and cool it in the brother of the man who wanted to be the next clan chief, but died in the glass columns of Rodeon as ran was passing through. Land fear tells them that she wants what they want to prevent ran from being named the car a car.

[01:22:01] So she uses her forsaken skills to create false golden dragon tattoos on cool. And his arm arms, just like ran so that he also looks as though he is marked to be car car. So yeah, this was done by a different forsaken in the book, but I think it makes sense to have land fear do it. Here is a sort of jealous. Well, I was in the book. Oh, okay. That's cool. Um, we see here also Savannah and cool. Dean always itching to start a fight.

[01:22:31] I love how the other lady in the tent with them. I couldn't even find her name in the closing credits, but she says no blood is to be spilt on all Kair doll. And then she gets sent out of the room. They're like, okay, thanks mom. Bye. Yeah. That's pretty funny. Yeah. And then we come to our desert showdown where first Marine has another talk with Rand, one that she thinks may be her last. She tells him that his plan to come to the waste was a good one.

[01:23:00] Admits that she's been working with land fear, that she wanted to separate Rand and control him. And that she suspected that land fear was the one tormenting Egwene. She hoped to drive all three apart and it worked. But Rand now sees that Moraine is the one who has been most faithful to him the entire time. They want the same thing for Rand to choose the light and win the last battle or else die. He thanks her for getting him this far and asks her to stand by his side.

[01:23:29] She says he must stand on his own without any Aes Sedai strings tied to him. So yeah, great arc between the two of them this season. Yeah. I thought excellent character work. They needed to do a lot because again, there were some weird moments last season. Like I wasn't quite sure where they were going with certain things with them, but they really turned it around. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then we get to the badass fight.

[01:23:59] Moraine knows from her visions that the time has come to face land fear herself in the place. Her visions from Roidian told her this confrontation was most likely to happen. She draws land fear there with a big rainbow show of power, a shield that protects Alkaer doll. And then the two battle land fear nearly kills Moraine, but Moraine breaks free. And then land who is not dead. Like land fear expected joins the fight. Land fear eventually knocks him out and gains the upper hand with Moraine stabbing her through the stomach.

[01:24:27] Just then Moraine feels Swan die. Their oath rod bond evaporating from her. Land fear mocks her pushing Moraine to find new strength. And then she pulls the sword out of her own body and cuts land fears throat. Land fear scurries through a portal and disappears. And land collects Moraine in his arms and carries her back. So it looks like they both survive for now. Yeah, I think so.

[01:24:56] Did Moraine heal herself? Like, is this a new talent being discovered? Is that what happened with the sword or does she still have a hole through her center? Nah, she has a hole through her center. Look, depending if it didn't hit any organs. Yeah. I'm not saying that it would kill her on the spot, but I just, I wondered if. Okay. I didn't see her bleeding a lot. No, I think they just didn't have a lot of blood. I mean, I hope that they're not having her heal herself because I think that's an important weakness we have to leave with the eyes to eye.

[01:25:26] I think that it makes them really overpowered if they get healed themselves. Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. But yeah, so this was some of the highlights in terms of the visuals for the episode. Like the whole Lanphir strangling Moraine with a cord of light. The Moraine shooting fireballs with the Sarkarnan and Lanphir floating on the ground with a shield blocking the fire. The weaves of light versus the inky true power.

[01:25:54] This is, I want all of like these screens as posters on my wall. Yeah. I really did enjoy this fight. There was, it did go on a little bit long sometimes with the whole like, like Moraine just going like, every time she got her throat pulled back. But it paid off well.

[01:26:19] I, I thought it was interesting to see, you know, this is something that we've seen with Alana too, is this like rage that happens when you lose someone you, you have something with. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we see this weave float away from Moraine when she feels Swan die. So that must've been the oath that she swore to Swan on the oath rod, the whole, what people call the secret wedding. Yeah.

[01:26:45] Um, so I guess that means how do you think, how do you think that that works though? Because there's no like two people on the oath rod. I don't think in the, uh, in the books and, and the reason that this, this might be a problem is like, what happens when you swear the three O's? Like does a person hold the other side? And what if that person dies? Are you now no longer part of the three O's? Or is this like a multi-use rod where you can also do two person O's?

[01:27:14] I mean, I think the key difference is that Moraine said Swan's name in her oath. So it was tied specifically to Swan. Okay. All right. I guess I was a little confused as to why Swan was even holding the rod in, in season one. Because it was their secret wedding. I know, but I, I think it, it confused me in like a lore basis. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[01:27:38] I mean, I suppose if, um, she would be, she might be doing that as like swear in a new I said, I sister or something too. But in that case, the O's are sworn to her office rather than to, as Moraine, Moraine kind of slipped Swan's name in there instead of saying the Amarillo and Seats or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess this means Moraine can enter the white tower again. Yeah. I think that's right.

[01:28:08] Will she? Under Alida? I don't know. Hmm. Hmm. All right. Will the real Karkar please stand up? Do you want to set that up? That's a good title. It's a good title. Hurts me every time. Um, meanwhile, Ruark and Ran lead the Tardad to Alkaer Dal, a meeting place of the clans with an amphitheater structure. The Shido and three other clans are already waiting for them there.

[01:28:37] But Ran says they don't have time to wait for more clans to join. The Forsaken are making moves and they need to make their moves faster. They need to proclaim him Karkar and join him to take the stone of Tyr and claim the sword that is not a sword, Kalandor. But when Ruark goes to present Rand, Kuladin is already standing in the center of Alkaer Dal claiming that he is the Karkar, showing off his new golden tattoos.

[01:29:03] Rand joins him there, throwing off his coat to show his own, reminding the Aiel that the prophecies say that their Karkar will be someone who is of the blood, but not raised by the blood. He, raised in the two rivers, fits the bill. Aiel raised Kuladin does not. First of all, suns out, guns out. Get those pecs pumping, boy.

[01:29:29] There was, oh, in that moment also when Lanfear takes Kuladin's shirt off to put the marks on his arms, I'm like, woo, they're going for some sexy stuff there. I will continue to call this man Budget Kaldrogo. That's fair. That's fair. I mean, he wishes. He honestly wishes. Yeah, yeah. Do you want to do the last part? Rand also calls Kuladin out for lying. Kuladin never went through the columns.

[01:29:58] Rand did, and he knows that every other chief and wise one who did as well saw a vision of the same visions he did, filtered through the eyes of their own ancestors. They will know he is speaking the truth if he tells them what he saw. Even though Ruark warned him that sharing such knowledge openly will break the Aiel, who cannot believe themselves oak breakers who once followed the way of the leaf. But he is the Karakarn. Breaking the Aiel is part of the job description. So he tells the crowd this truth.

[01:30:28] Well, Kuladin, who doesn't know and can't believe it himself, vehemently denies it. And the crowd of Aiel watching break in half and begin to fight. So, first of all, I love Sivana's fashion choices again. I'm begging Sharon Gillum to always give Sivana a headpiece, the scene where she was inside that was missing. But question, do you think if Kuladin had gone through the columns instead of Mordeen, do you

[01:30:57] think he would have torn out his own eyes as well, like his brother did? A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Dude can't handle it. Weakling. I mean, we don't really, we never see in the books also. We don't know what Mordeen was actually like if he was like a hothead, like his brother as well, or if he was a more kind of stable guy. Yeah. Could have been, could have been a perfectly fine gent. Maybe, maybe. Seems unlikely, but could be. Well, you know, let's not, let us not speak ill of him. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

[01:31:27] Hmm. Um, I do love Avienda says to, we just see Egwene like really ready to finish bailing on this relationship and Avienda says to her, it's the Aiel's duty to follow him, but you are not Aiel, Egwene. He has lain with a shadow sold and promises a future of destruction and madness. Like, well, when you put it that way, I mean, doesn't seem like such a catch. Yeah. Look, I mean, Ren straight up sucks sometimes and that's just got to be part of his

[01:31:57] character for a while. I, I think that's, that's a big part of the wheel of time is like, he's one dude. He's got a lot on his shoulders. What's he going to do? Yeah. I mean, I'm not blaming him. Yeah. Um, I mean, he's, he's a human. I don't think he handles everything perfectly. Um, I think that is a better story because he does not, but yeah, you can see Egwene in this part starting to, there's several cuts, cutaways to her this season where her

[01:32:27] face is just like, what the hell am I dealing with? And, uh, she's ready to bail, which is for better or worse for, you know, whatever that says about her character that doesn't exactly make her look great either. Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, just to point out that Avienda did not know about the visions because, so the wise ones, they do the rings first. We saw Avienda do the rings. It's how they start their training.

[01:32:56] And then at the end of their training, they go through the columns. So that's why, uh, bear and wrote bear and, um, Malene do know about, you know, the visions, the past. Mm. Right. Right. Yeah. They did that plenty long ago. Mm-hmm. All right. So that brings us to the final moments when Rand silences them all by channeling dark skies, which we see stretch across the land.

[01:33:26] The sky darkens over Tarvalon across the spine of the world as Aleda takes over the Amarlin study, putting away the Terangrial swan use to visit her dream world love shack with Moraine. Over Tanchico, where Moghedian peeps through paperwork in the Panarch's palace, a shocked expression crossing her face. Clouds gather over the two rivers where Fahil, Bane, and Shiad spy on the White Cloak army.

[01:33:51] And the Areth ocean where Nynaeve, Matt, Elaine, and Min are back on the deck of Coen's Seafolk ship. And rain pours down in the desert into the faces of the dragon reborn's new army in Alkaer Dal. We hear Moraine's voice say, for the land is one with the dragon reborn and he is one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, and pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield.

[01:34:16] He calls upon the mountains to kneel and the seas to give way and the very skies to bow, pray that the heart of stone remembers tears and the soul of fire love. Egwene calls for Ran to stop, to let the power go, and the screen cuts to black. Girl, can you let him have one moment? Like, come on. Come on. I mean, he had his moment and she was worried about him. She does still love him. Wah, wah, wah. Wah.

[01:34:46] That's all I'm going to say. He could burn himself out or go mad on the spot. Wah, wah. All I hear is complaining from everyone. And Ran, my guy, is having a glorious moment. I hope all the Ran stans are happy with that, that he had his big finish for the season. I know that they were disappointed that he didn't have, I mean, he had the biggest ending in the first season, but it was just, you know, that was the COVID shit season finale.

[01:35:15] Yeah, it was a little anticlimactic because of the way it was. And so in season two, I know people were disappointed. And I kind of too was like, why is Moraine doing the dragon fire? He would never do that for himself. No, I get it. I get it. I was just like, I actually thought it would be more of a landfier thing. Hmm. You know? Hmm. Hmm.

[01:35:41] I could see that, but I guess, yeah, Moraine, it was her task to find the dragon. Yeah. But yeah, that last part that Moraine says, it's from the Carathon cycle, which is also known as the prophecies of the dragon. And that is going to be the subject of the final lore cast for this season. We're going to talk through the Carathon cycle and what it says. And also, well, I didn't talk to you about this yet, John, but I thought that I would

[01:36:10] record and release a separate, like eight minute long recording with just the reading of the cycle with sound effects for subscribers and season pass holders as well. That sounds like a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to listening to it. And then, yeah, you and I will talk through what the prophecies, which we'll talk through the prophecies that we've already seen happen because there are a lot that we've already seen happen now. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

[01:36:40] And so that will be available for subscribers and season pass holders. But what do you think about where we left things with the finale? What are your thoughts and expectations for season four and beyond? You gotta get me a season four before I even consider that. But I'll play your game anyway, Alicia. Yeah, I mean, you have a good list right here. But I think we've got to have, you know, resolution of the parent storyline.

[01:37:09] Mm-hmm. I'm very curious how they're going to do that. I think we can talk more freely about that in the White Tower. Yeah. I'm really wondering where the Wonder Girls are going, the Mighty Morphing Wonder Girls. I don't know. No, that doesn't work. And I want to see what's going on with the Shanshan. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:37:41] We haven't picked up with what happened with this whole empire of people across the water who sent boats that got blown up. And Loghain. We never checked in with Loghain. He must still be locked up in the tower. I think actually Loghain and Tam are both like rowing in a boat together like Gendry in Game of Thrones. Okay. With Perrin's dad, apparently. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, they've set up the Stone of Tear.

[01:38:11] So I guess, you know, they're all going across the spine of the world, the mountains. And we have to deal with the fallout from Swan's death and Liana's shielding what's going on in the tower. So we saw the Wonder Girls on the Seafolk ship. We did not see Tom with them, but I'm going to assume he's down in the cabin, I hope. I don't know why he wasn't there. Yeah. I don't know. Please don't.

[01:38:40] You just gave his Tom back. Please don't take it away. Are they going to do that again? Like, oh, I stayed back to help. No. Which he did, but I'm hoping that they just re-get. Oh, we handled it. Okay. Bye. Yeah. I mean, she came. I mean, Elaine immediately came back and helped him. Oh, true. True. Yeah. Yeah. I hope they didn't have another, like, I don't know. We'll see. Maybe they wanted to leave it open in case the actor is not available. Hmm.

[01:39:07] Elaine does need to go warn her mom, as he said, about Robin. And also, I guess I'm going to assume her brothers are still at the Tower. So, how are they going to react to this and this whole political strife that's going on? I mean, of course, Elida is their girl, you know? Yeah. They've known her. She basically, like, rocked them in the great. Well, no, she didn't. No, that was Linny, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:39:35] And also, I think they were older before Elida even. Maybe not. Maybe not, actually. True. True. I'm not going to speculate on all this. Yeah. Okay. But yeah. I mean, and the Alana is taking the Cawthon girl somewhere, too. So, that's interesting. We need more explanation of the Finn. And we need to find out what happened with Tsutama.

[01:40:00] The head of the Red Aja was sent to hunt down Mazrum Taim, the false dragon. So, in the book, she was also exiled for a while. And then when she comes back, she has this story. So, I'm wondering if that's going to happen. It does make sense to combine it with Mazrum Taim, her version of the story. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We just need that renewal announcement. ASAP.

[01:40:30] Hopefully, it's come out while we've been recording. Yeah. Who knows? Who knows? Let's look at it right now. Wheel of Time. Season for renewal. Cool. Everybody post on social media how much you want season four. Just make a lot of noise. The actors say they have hope. Yeah. Well, that doesn't give me hope. That the actors are coming out saying, we have hope.

[01:40:59] Well, they've been asked a lot in a lot of... But it seems like they're getting more hopeful. It's from like, oh, I hope so, to... I think Josia Stradowski said, like, basically, they'd be crazy not to renew us. And I think he's right. So, we'll see. We'll see. Yeah. I think it's perhaps one of the top one to three shows on Amazon right now. That's what I'm going to say. It's the top show on Amazon, definitely.

[01:41:26] No, I just mean, like, on my personal taste. Oh, overall. My preference. I think I would say, like, overall, out of shows they've made, it's one of, like, my top three. I think I'd put, like, this Fallout and the Rings of Power as my top three. Okay. But I'm not going to choose which one is top. I will. It's easily this one. Okay. But that's, yeah, that's for me.

[01:41:54] We are going to do a mailbag episode, I think, in, like, a week. Does that sound good? Give people time to get their thoughts in? Look, I need a break anyway, because I'm still getting over my cold. And we have to do some Andor and Last of Us in between. Right, right. So, we want to hear your responses to the finale, to the season as a whole. Everything else, please send that to WOT, W-O-T, at the lorehounds.com, and you'll find that link in the show notes.

[01:42:22] Do also check out that extra public episode this past week, where they check in with non-book reader Jean. Yeah, maybe we should invite him to join for the finale, too. Yeah, that'd be fun. Yeah. And this week's Lorecast, as I said, it's the Carathan Cycle, the Prophecies of the Dragon, with the extra Carathan audio mini-drama, audio drama mini-ep.

[01:42:49] What's the deal with season passes and subscriptions? For $10, you can get all the show guides. I've got to finish updating that. I'm slightly behind on my recaps for the show guide. But the character guide and the concept guide are all ready to go. You can look at people's Aja's. You can look at all their affiliates and whatnot.

[01:43:14] You could also get our Lorecast, as you mentioned, Alicia, and other various bonus content from time to time, just for this season of the Wheel of Time.

[01:43:52] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's not that it's going to be a pain to record or listen to. It's the name of the movie. No, the Oscar-winning movie. I really like it. It's one of my favorites. Yeah, I know. Yeah, it was great. It was great. I'm going to rewatch it before our episode, which we need to schedule. I'm going to try to fit that in. But if not, I just recently watched it, so that's okay. No, it's a great movie. Yeah. It is really good. It made me feel a lot of things. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I want to talk about some of those conversations, too.

[01:44:21] It's also why I want to rewatch to remind myself. But yeah, if you're not interested in those extras or not up for whatever reason, then you can also just help us by sharing this episode with anyone else who enjoys the Wheel of Time. Or leave a review, a positive review, preferably, wherever you're listening. And what else do we have going on on the network? Well, something I want to make clear is a lot of people listen on our dedicated Wheel of Time feed. Yeah. That will basically go dead after this season. Right. Good point.

[01:44:51] Until next season. But if you want more of us, we're always doing stuff on the main Lorehounds feed. So go to the link through the show notes. Subscribe. Follow on Apple or whatever else you listen to to the main Lorehounds feed for more of us. Right. And what else is going on on that feed right now? You're doing some Daredevil stuff. I don't think I'm going to join for it, even though I am mostly caught up. Yeah. I just can't add another podcast this week. Understood. But I'm excited to hear your thoughts on it. But it's going to be Luke, Sean, and I.

[01:45:20] We had a great talk after the last batch of episodes. So it's going to be another fun conversation wrapping up the season. You don't need my sorry opinions then. But yeah. We'd love to hear them anyway. I'm excited to hear yours. And we're doing Doctor Who, The Last of Us, and Andor. All happening. Those are all... Those three are... The Last of Us and Andor are definitely full coverage. Doctor Who, we're going to play it by ear.

[01:45:48] When we can fit in episodes, we'll do them. We're not sure if we're going to get screeners for the full season. So that's part of it. Yeah. I think it depends a lot on... We got screeners for the first two episodes so far. So you're getting those. Yeah. But yeah, the current show section of our Discord has never been so full. I know. It's so big right now. And people are like, where's this channel? And I'm like, I don't even know. Well, I think it's actually convenient when it's under current shows.

[01:46:16] It's like the easiest place for people to find stuff. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. So definitely join us on the Discord to chat about the Wheel of Time, where we have a dedicated forum with different channels per episode and everything, so you don't get spoilers and book stuff. And yeah. That links in the link tree in the show notes, as are links to the affiliates in the network. So we have Radioactive Ramblings. They've been doing Ghibli coverage.

[01:46:44] And I'm not sure what else is next, but other various things. My Own Will Shift Us and the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast, Properly Howard, Rings and Rituals, and Nevermind the Music, which I really enjoyed their Tears for Fears episode they just released. That was a good one. That was a really good one. Was this a sidetrack you were talking about? No. Oh, no. Oh, no. There was a sidetrack they just did. Okay.

[01:47:14] Yeah, I did listen to that one. That was a good one. That was the one I listened to most recently. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that just brings us to the reading of the names. Do you want me to do it? Oh, and can I say one more Wheel of Time thing? Is just, if the show does get canceled, and I hope it doesn't, you know, creator forbid, I think we should do one more episode on here and talk about if we could fit in,

[01:47:43] like, you know, something I've seen people do after shows get canceled in other universes based on books, is they'll do, like, a future read-through, and so they'll continue the series through the books with, like, a podcast for each book. And I think that would be a nice idea. Yeah. So I think if the show gets canceled, we'll try to walk you through the rest of the story. Okay. I mean, part of, I mean, of course. I'm pitching this to you right now. Yeah. But, of course, I want to start at the beginning. No, I know. But maybe we could, like, start.

[01:48:12] I don't know. I don't know. Let's workshop it. Let's workshop it. Okay. Okay. I think it would be good to, like, offer people something if they don't want to read the books and they are sad that the show will be gone. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. But I still say we can start at the beginning. Yeah, fair. Also because things go different directions and stuff. It always reminds me of, like, people with silo. They're like, if I just want to start at the end of this season, which book do I start with? I'm like, the beginning of the first book. Start with the beginning of the first book. Yeah. It's tough.

[01:48:42] It's tough because it is different. But, yeah, we'll talk about plans and whatnot. I think it'd be fun to do something. If in a dark time, we can make light of it a little bit. But I am more optimistic about the renewal than you are, I think. I think you are. Look, I hope to be wrong, though. Yeah. No, I know. I know. And very well. Look, they just renewed Rains of Power, I think, like, last month. And so if it doesn't get renewed, like, in a month, I'm not going to be, like, completely downtrodden.

[01:49:12] Right. I think if it gets to, like, six months from now and it's not renewed, then I'll be like, okay, we're done. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe they could be saving it for a big con or something. But I just think now with the number of people who are picking up the show and the buzz around it, I have a good feeling. Yeah. All right. We'll see. Good. We'll see.

[01:49:37] So just a reminder to everyone before we do the reading of the names that we'll have a White Tower discussion with full book spoilers after the outro. But do you want me to take the names, Sikhi? Yes. Thank you. I'm not going to get through them. All right. So thank you to our Discord server boosters, Aaron K., Tiller the Thriller, Dork of the Ninjas, Doob71, Athena Adjalea, Tina, Lestu, Nancy M., Ghost of Perdition, and Radioactive Richard.

[01:50:03] And thank you to all of our subscribers who make this possible. Thank you most of all to our highest tier, the Lore Masters. Thank you.

[01:50:20] Sarah L., Gareth C., Matthew M., Sarah M., Andrew B., Kwong Yu, Jedi Jedi Bob, Nathan T., Alex V., Sub Zero, Aaron K., Dally V., Mothership 61, Narls, Kathy W., The Stew, Jeffrey B., Elisa Yu, Neil F., Ben B., Scott F., Stephen N., Julia F., Kali S., Ilmariel, forward slash Tim, and always last Adrian. All right. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. See you in the White Tower if you like spoilers.

[01:50:50] The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds. You can send questions, feedback, and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and add free access to all our episodes at patreon.com slash thelorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. So, first of all, can I pitch a little bit about one minor disappointment that I had this episode? Okay.

[01:51:19] Is there were no obvious first age artifacts in the Panarchs Palace? Yeah, I see your note here about the not Ben's logo. I was like, yeah, that was a missed opportunity. There was a silver circle with a star in it that was not a Ben's logo. And I guess that was nodding to what was clearly a Mercedes-Benz logo in the books.

[01:51:42] And maybe they couldn't get the rights, but they could have put something in there that was clearly where you look at it and you're like, that's from our world. You know, maybe they couldn't get a Mercedes-Benz, but get a Kia. I mean, it's literally on Amazon. Put an Amazon Swish or something somewhere. That's true. That's true. Yeah, well, oh no, I think you would have gotten raged with that. Yeah, okay, fair, fair, fair, fair. Maybe, especially not in this climate, especially not in this climate.

[01:52:10] Maybe they even took it out. But I wonder if they're saving that, you know, the first ages our world reveal for later somehow and how they intend to reveal it. Because it is really, in the books, it's at the Panarchs Palace where you're like, wait, what? Right, yeah. There's a giraffe and a Mercedes-Benz logo? It turns out it was actually the last of us the entire time. Mm-hmm.

[01:52:37] I mean, there was like some, there was like a chimpanzee and some other animals from our world, but nothing as dramatic anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Can I also say, I was really worried they were going to kill Tom? Tom? And I wonder if they even changed their mind? Because with the whole thing about him not being at the end, but just the fact that he had on what is clearly Matt's hat. Oh.

[01:53:07] The little Jack of the Shadows? It's very much Matt's hat. So it feels like at some point he has to give the hat to Matt. And I thought, I was like, don't bring him back just to kill him so he can hand over the hat. Yeah. No, agreed. Agreed. I want Tom to be around long term. Yeah. Do you think that they might make him and Morgay's endgame instead of Moraine? I would be fine with that. I never really understood what they were doing with Morgay's and her romance towards the end.

[01:53:36] Just like, it just didn't feel good to me. You know? It felt like it was fine, but I was like, this was just unnecessary. Yeah. It gives a little ick. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas with Tom would be, and I know a lot of people, I'm probably like the only one who's pro. So the, I wanted Tom and Moraine in this world because they seem better suited than in the books, but we'll see. No, I don't want them. I never wanted them in the books and I don't want them in the show.

[01:54:06] Keep it away. All right. All right. Protect Rosamund Pike from that old man. I mean, he's not that much older than her in the show. Okay. Um, so Moraine in Lanfear, we thought she was going to die or go through a door or something. Do you think, do you think, what if Moraine goes to the tower to try to get Liana out and then goes through the door there?

[01:54:34] And Matt also maybe because Matt still has unfinished door business too. He's like, this went well one time. Let's do it again. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Cause in the books he goes and he, he asks the questions and the ale fin, the snake ones, they, the questions are kind of useless in the book, to be honest. And they're just like, go to Rodeon. And he's like, okay, that's lame. They're like, why? And he's like, he's like, why? Like, because it's your fate. And he's like, well, what's my fate? And then they finally say something useful.

[01:55:04] They say his fate is to marry the daughter of the nine moons to die and live again and live once more a part of what was to give up half the light of the world to save the world. So die and live again. We kind of saw with him getting hanged, but I always took that part to be about him becoming a hero of the horn, which we already saw happen. Yeah.

[01:55:28] Um, I, yeah, I, I, to live once more a part of what was. Mm hmm. I always took that as a, uh, memories. Yeah. I mean that we do need. So now the eel fin who are the second he visits in the books, instead of giving him memories, they took away memories. So I guess he needs them given back and he needs to hear about this, marrying the daughter of the nine moons and giving up. He needs to lose an eye.

[01:55:58] Sorry. He, he, um, it's really interesting because. He's got too many eyes. Yeah. They, um, they, they healed the holes in the, in the books, right? Like he had holes in his memories and he's like, he's like, fix this. And the way that they do is to not take away the memories, which is what he thought they were going to do, but like fill everything out. Yeah. Yeah. And so now, now they, they did the opposite, the eel fin.

[01:56:25] So now he needs the other ones to like put the memories back or something. Yeah. Maybe I could see that causing his own problems. Yeah. I mean, but the book wishes are pretty much the same except for the reversal of the memories. It's still the fox head medallion, which protects him from channeling and from magic and, uh, passage. No Ashandari though. No, that's, I mean, that has to be in the second part then. Yeah. Yeah. I hope so. Yeah.

[01:56:53] They just, it seems like they just kind of remixed, like they still have the eel fin and the al fin, but they kind of remixed. Well, it seems like they do similar things. I'm not sure what the difference is going to be, but they remixed the order that Matt experiences them, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. I'm okay with, they're a little closer than in the books. It's, it's like you say, the questions were not that helpful. No. Yeah. And he's already, it's past the Roydian part.

[01:57:20] So, but they can say the things about the daughter of the nine moons. That's a big one. And to give up half the light of the world to save the world is a big one too. Yeah. Yeah. Which honestly is like a pretty good riddle. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like I didn't guess it. No, no, I, no, I definitely didn't guess it until, but I mean, it happens pretty quickly and then it's like, boop, I'd be gone. Right.

[01:57:47] Um, so, okay, we thought, we expected kind of Swan to die and cause we thought Liana could carry that, uh, that stealing storyline, but then they didn't steal, still, sorry. Ugh. They didn't steal Liana. They just shielded her. And I have a question about how did they know how to tie off the shield? Did they definitely tie off the shield or was somebody maintaining it? I don't know. Maybe, maybe somebody was maintaining it. There were plenty of people there. I mean, somebody definitely could have been maintaining it. That's true.

[01:58:15] It wasn't, Elida was busy with Swan, but yeah, someone else was probably holding her down. That makes sense. Yeah. But then I guess, are they going to steal her next season? Because that's like, I expected Liana to carry the stealing story and be healed later. And, you know. I think they probably will do it off screen between seasons. Yeah. And, uh, I hope not. I don't know. I liked the whole pouring out of power thing that they did. Yeah. But they got a budget, Alicia. Yeah. Fair, fair, fair. You can't expect them. They showed it once. That's what you get.

[01:58:45] That's what you get. And then, like, imagine that, but it happens at Liana again. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, because she has to, like, develop her new personality and everything. And it's a whole big story arc for her. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure if I want them to do all that, though. No? Some of that feels a little problematic to me. Oh, sure. She doesn't need to learn to be a sexy woman. No. Yeah.

[01:59:14] Like, actually, true freedom is being sexy and fitting the male gaze. Yeah. Well, she was reclaiming her domani roots. Yeah, yeah. Okay, Robert Jordan. But, yeah, next stop, Saladar. How quickly in season four do you think they'd get to Salazar? That's a good question. I hope pretty quickly.

[01:59:44] Yeah. Because I want that whole plot line to last, like, a season and a half at the most. Yeah. Just don't give me the little tower and, like, all this bullshit. Like, just have the revolution be televised quickly. Yeah. Okay, fair. But I guess maybe it'll take half a season to get there because first they have to, like, break Liana and Loghain and stuff out of the tower. And Gowan needs to be stupid. And, yeah.

[02:00:14] Gowan and... I can't wait to punch Gowan in the face. Gowan and Egwene have not even met yet. And let's hope they never do. Gowan and Egwene have not even met. I mean... He belongs on Planet of the Incels from Doctor Who, season two, episode one. I don't know. I have less hatred for Gowan than other people. No. I will never be talked out of this. Okay. Okay. He is the worst character in the Wheel of Time.

[02:00:42] What's that office quote with, like, if I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Gowan, Lanfear, and Ishamal, I'd shoot Gowan twice. I mean, I think a lot of people feel that way. I don't know. I have a soft spot for the ones that I also, like, I defend Aram. But I like what they're doing with Aram's storyline. I think that they're...

[02:01:10] He's going to be more interesting in his... I'm sure they'll still have him fall, but I think he'll be more interesting in it. And I believe in them and their capability of doing the same for Gowan. I always liked Gowan better than... I just... I don't like Galad. So by juxtaposition, Gowan seems better because Galad is just so... Oh, I just... Oh, I don't like that guy. He gets better as it goes on. But I just...

[02:01:36] He's too dutiful and strict and, like... Yeah. His idea of the right thing is very problematic. Yeah. I see what you're saying. And it definitely is for a while and then eventually it kind of mellows out. Mm-hmm. But are they taking away the trial of Perrin from him entirely? Do you think because Perrin's already there? Yeah. Like, I think they might be taking away that whole character arc.

[02:02:03] And that's part of his character arc of mellowing out. Hmm. You think they might give that to Dane? Yeah. I think this might be Dane's thing now. Maybe. Maybe. But then I wonder, what are... Are they just not going to do much with the Tricond brothers? Yeah, maybe. Maybe they just kind of... I don't know. I mean, Galad also ends up with Berylene, who we might not ever get. Right.

[02:02:32] I do hope that we get her. And I kind of hope, again, I kind of hope that they skip Morgay's going with the white cloaks and then... Well, they killed... In prison for how long? They killed Valda, who was the worst part of that story. Yeah. Just, but like, the whole Morgay's wandering, I do think, was a tired plot after a while. Yeah. No, I feel you. I feel you. Yeah.

[02:03:02] I do... They're definitely remixing things. Like, okay, so they... Samael, they released, as we're recording, they released the clip that shows Morgay saying that, you know, she wants Samael to teach Rand and everyone online's like, well, there we go. Noah's Modian, you know. Now, I think that they set that up and then killed him.

[02:03:27] I believe more than ever that we are actually going to get Asmodian or Asmodred, you know, combined with Demandred or whatever, as the final Forsaken. Yeah, I think it would be cool to have, if it is, them combined, like, call him Demandred, have Demandred spend some time training Rand and then disappear and then come back with Shara later.

[02:03:53] At least then he is a known entity by the time he comes in with this deus ex machina. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I could see that. And I do think... I think they're going to give Belal's book arc to Robin because we saw Lanfear setting it up where she's like, don't you want to go get Kalendor? Which is what Belal... A Forsaken who's not in the show. That was his storyline. So I think Robin's... Because Robin's another one who just kind of, like... He just kind of dies and you're not really sure who did it.

[02:04:23] And then it's confirmed, like, outside the books that it was Graindoll. And you're like, what? Okay, I guess. You know? So I think they can definitely do more. It was always Graindoll. Yeah. But I think just add Asmodean and keep them around for longer. Yeah, fair enough. I mean, I hate to say it, but Robin's kind of likable. He is kind of likable in this. And I think that's an interesting aspect of his villainy. Yeah.

[02:04:50] Except for, you know, the wanting to kill Elaine, but... Ah, details. He had some great, fun talks with her before that. He sure did. They shared wine. Question. Do you think that there are any Forsaken hiding in plain sight? Like, there was a fan theory that Savannah was Graindoll. But I think that's been debunked by this episode because she didn't know who Lanfear was. But do you think that there are any characters we've already seen that are secretly Forsaken in disguise?

[02:05:21] No. That's all I'm going to say. No, I don't think so. I think they're going to do very careful casting and they're going to have the people they're going to have. Yeah. Yeah, I think so too. They just haven't cast those yet. Yeah. So Tsutsama was sent to hunt down Mazrum Tayim. And then she's the one who later...

[02:05:44] I mean, I think that sets her up nicely to be involved with the Black Tower because she's the one later who proposes that the Red Sisters bond the Ashaman. Mm-hmm. Um, I am... I do hope that Loghain pops up next season and the Shuncheon. Would be nice. I think we need check-ins with both. Although Loghain, again, like, I'm fine with them just bringing him in when the Black Tower starts. But the Black Tower could start next season. And that would be reasonable.

[02:06:14] Well, I mean, they should bring Tayim in at least. And then it would be... I'm very eager to see... I mean, I want to meet Tayim and I want to see his relationship with... Not relationship, but like his... How he and Loghain interact. Yeah. Because they're very different characters who are juxtaposed for the rest of the books, basically. Right. Yeah. Right. And you almost want to root for Tayim at first, right? And then you're like, oh, no. Yeah.

[02:06:43] Well, I don't know. No, yeah. I don't know that I ever liked him. I was so excited about Tayim at first. Mostly from Luz Theron being like, kill him. Kill him. Nah. Luz Theron. You know what's such an earworm for me is him going, Ilyana. Yeah, exactly. In the audiobooks, it's always so whiny. It's like, Ilyana. Oh, you have to watch that Winter Dragon short. Okay. With... What was it?

[02:07:13] With... Who is it? Billy Zane or something? Anyway. Um... Yeah. Ilyana. Ilyana. Yeah. Poor Luz Theron. Poor Luz Theron. We didn't... We didn't see Luz Theron at all, but there was a few times where people thought that they heard his voice saying things when Rand was channeling hard. Oh, you think so? Hmm. That's what other people have said. I didn't necessarily pick it up, but other people are saying that.

[02:07:42] Yeah, and that might be the Luz Theron in your head, dear listener. Not Rand's head. I mean, it should be. It should be. There definitely are voices at some point. Yeah. Yeah. Um... I think... Next season, we gotta get it. Next season, we gotta get some Luz in the head. Some Luz in the head. Some Wolf. Some Perrin's head. I need Wolf action. And I need... I mean, they introduced Lord Luke, and then they...

[02:08:09] I couldn't believe he just wasn't really around in the battle in Episode 7. Although someone was hypothesizing maybe he's the one who shot Alana and Days Conger from the side, because we never saw who that was, who snuck up on the side of the town. Yeah. That's true. Okay. Yeah, I have no idea what they're doing with him, if they're gonna go forward with his plotline or not. I really need the Slayer arc. Yeah. And I need more Hopper.

[02:08:38] And I think it's really important for Perrin. Yeah. Yeah. And we need more Hopper. Yeah. I don't even think the Slayer arc takes that much screen time. No, not at all. But I need Perrin to learn the Wolf dream and all that. Gotta learn how to Hop. Gotta learn how to Hop. From the Master. Do you have any more thoughts on the season or next season?

[02:09:05] I'm excited and anxious because I want a season for... I don't know if we're getting it, but I think season four is gonna be fantastic if we get it. Mm-hmm. I think we'll probably get through book six. Yeah. In terms of content. And that's a good stopping point. No, I agree with you. Yeah. Because they even... Well, they've been... They had, like we said, even the 90 block thing is from book seven.

[02:09:30] So they've been pulling from later books, but I like how they've been remixing it. I think it's smart. Yeah. I have confidence. I have every confidence. Hopefully by the time we're back in about a week with the feedback episode with the mailbag, hopefully it'll be with good renewal news. So everyone send your posts and your positive thoughts out into the ether and get everyone

[02:09:59] you know to watch this show. And Jeff, I know you're a loyal listener, Jeff Bezos. Mm-hmm. Renew the show. Renew the show. Sony, play nice. All right. Good night, everybody. Good night. Thank you all. And see you in the next turning of the wheel, which means in a week for the mailbag episode. Thank you. Bye. Nicole, did you ever notice how the sign by Ace of Base has really strange key changes? I did not, Mark.

[02:10:29] I'm a real person. Well, let me tell you about it. I'll let you talk about neuroscience gobbledygook. Yes. I thought you'd never ask. This is the Nevermind the Music podcast. Where one psychologist. And one musician. Deep dive into the songs you love. So you don't have to. And there's plenty of time to get off topic. From semi-charmed life to the way you move. And who could forget the crossroads? Is it the crossroads or the crossroads? Save it for the episode, Mark. Listen to Nevermind the Music. Wherever you get your podcasts.