The Wheel of Time - Season 3 Trailer Spoilercast

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[00:02:25] Hello and welcome to the inaugural episode for Season 3 of The Wheel of Time on Amazon Prime. I'm John. And I'm Alicia. We are going to be doing a quick, like, 30-minute breakdown of the new trailer that just came out. You can find those links in the show notes, right, Alicia? What links are you including?

[00:02:46] So there's a teaser trailer that came out like a month ago, and then there's the new trailer that just came out. And there's also a teaser to a Matt teaser that we'll talk about a little bit later. Sure. How should we handle... I mean, I think we're just going to do full book spoilers for this particular episode, right? That's not going to be in our regular coverage that way. But for this episode, thoughts? Do you want to limit us to book five? Like books four and five?

[00:03:11] The problem is, as I was putting together this outline and thinking about it, I don't always remember where things happened. So I feel like I just want to say a blanket book spoiler thing just in case so that we're not gagged and trying to like, you know. All right. So let's say we could pull from any book. We'll try to avoid, like, very ending spoilers. Big spoilers. But other than that, we'll mostly be spoiling book four and five.

[00:03:38] So if you've not read those and you care about spoilers, which I know a lot of people don't. A lot of people just want to, you know, come along for the ride. They want to know what happens. But maybe it'll be different in the show. Leave now or forever hold your peace. Say not that you have not been warned. Yeah. The Black Kaja is coming for you.

[00:03:54] For the regular episodes, we're going to have the majority of the episode will be book spoiler free. And then we're going to do like David and I did with the Dune Prophecy, where after the credits, we'll do book spoilers per episode. That's right. That's right. So for now, you know, join us for our weekly coverage. That'll be safe. For now, I think this is just going to be for people who want to speculate based on the books.

[00:04:20] Because I think it would be silly for us to go through this trailer and be like, I don't know what's going to happen because I know what most of these things are. I want to tell you about the Leo pointing me moments, you know? Yeah. All right. This is going to be fun. Again, last spoiler warning. We're going to go into full spoilers after this. So goodbye. Bye.

[00:04:38] Okay. So the first, what I like about this trailer is that I think a lot of it comes from what we've already been told is going to be the opening scene of season three. They showed it at Comic-Con in Brazil. And it's basically the Black Aja fighting the rest of the White Tower and escaping. Ooh. I didn't realize that that was confirmed to be the opening scene. I mean, that makes sense to me. Mm-hmm.

[00:05:02] I think there's going to be a lot of White Tower drama this season. And, you know, it's funny. We have Marilyn on the Discord saying like, you know, it seems like these Aes Sedai are really just not great people. And maybe, you know, someone needs to give them a talking to. And I'm like, they'll get plenty of talking stew. Talking stew with the power. Yeah. Do not worry about the Aes Sedai not having, not being disciplined. Not getting taken down a notch. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:29] Which makes me question, I guess, I'm thinking maybe at the end of the season, we might see the break in the White Tower, you know, where there's a coup. And that one's, so we have like Black Aja versus the rest. But then there's a coup where it's not necessarily members of the Black Aja, just different ideas about how the White Tower should be run.

[00:05:49] So I'm going to disagree with you about that a little bit, because I think that it was spearheaded or at least puppeted by a member of the Black Aja, which was Alvi Arun, who becomes Elida's keeper of the Chronicles. Right. I'm one. But it certainly contains members of non-Black Aja. Yeah. Yeah. They haven't really introduced Alvi Arun, and then she's kind of one of the only glimpses we got into the White Aja.

[00:06:15] So I'm wondering if they're going to keep that character the same or, you know, I don't know. The White Aja always feels very boring to me. It feels very like they are just the people who maintain the rules. And I'm like, okay, I mean, that's very necessary, but it happens behind the scenes, which is okay. But they're like dispassionate. It's like always about being, which is so anti-me. And yeah, they're my least favorite Aja, even behind the Red Aja. Yeah. Yeah. I see what you're saying.

[00:06:45] I mean, so on your question, will the tower break the season? From my recollection, the book four ends near the end. Swan is attacked, and that's the last we hear from her in that book. We don't see the stilling. We don't see the break. And then book five, we see that she escapes. We see that she's still, and so is Leanna. Leanne, I'm sorry. No, they pronounce it Leanna, don't they? I don't remember which it is.

[00:07:15] I would say Leanna. Okay. I am wondering if Swan is even going to survive this season because also, of course, like, Sophie O'Connor is a very busy, successful actress. And also, I think, well, okay, we'll get to Moraine in a bit, but I think for Moraine's storyline, it frees her up to have her own storyline as goes in the books. Yes, I agree with that.

[00:07:46] And while I appreciate Swan later, I don't think it's vital to the story. And if we're going to have to start chopping things off, I think that's perfectly fine. And like you suggest in your notes here, Leanna probably could fit a similar role. Right. She can do, yeah, the same, the stilled thing that you mentioned. It could be just Leanna, and then you still have that plot playing out pretty much the same. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I'd be fine with that.

[00:08:15] And I think we could speed up the tower break stuff a little bit. That would be fine, too. Because, I mean, of all the things that really drag in the later books, and, you know, for people who have not read the later books yet, a lot of people call books 8 to 10 the slog. And I think that books 8 and 9 are undeserving of that. Book 10 is absolutely deserving of that label. Yeah. But I think that the tower break plot line does drag a lot.

[00:08:44] So I would be okay with them sort of keeping that a little low key. I mean, I think that that's one of the plot lines will speed up and maybe a certain kidnapping. Yeah. Yeah. So, and also, you know, we know characters like Leandrin have played a bigger role. She's featured prominently in the trailers. And I like that, that they're able to expand.

[00:09:06] I mean, Leandrin is an important character in the books, but they've given her more depth and let us see more into her psyche in the show. And that's one of the things I like about the adaptation. Yeah. She's important in the books, but she kind of nopes out after a while. Mm-hmm. Like, doesn't even have a dramatic end, just kind of fades out a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, that happens with a few characters, to be honest. Yeah.

[00:09:30] And so I'd be fine with them expanding her role and sort of some other Black Ajo sisters are going to, like, fade into the background a little bit more. Mm-hmm. And I'd be fine with that, you know, in favor of more Leandrin. Right, right. And we also see Alana. It looks like it's from this scene where she's crying and people are speculating that her warder died. And we know that her warder, Ivan, was recast from Emmanuel Imani, who played him the last two seasons. Mm-hmm.

[00:09:59] Apparently wasn't available this season, and so he's recast to Anthony Kaye. And I'm wondering if, yeah, he's going to die. Yeah, I could see it. I could see it. I think that'd be fine. And I think that would give her more motivation to forcibly bond Iran. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Which I believe does happen in book five, so I'm not feeling too badly about that one. Right. And about Rand, so one thing is, first of all, I'm glad they're finally making up his training with Leand.

[00:10:29] We see that especially in the teaser, that they're training together. And that's like a big thing in the books. It was kind of skipped over in the first seasons of the show because the plot's just like zooming along. So I'm glad they take a moment for that. But with Moraine, a big focus of both the teaser and the trailer is her saying, you know, I've seen a dozen different, you know, dozens of different futures. And everyone where I live, he dies. Right.

[00:10:57] Which I don't think she ever explicitly says that in the book. I don't remember her ever saying that. But yeah, we know that at the beginning of book five, you have her fight with Lanfear. Right. And so I'm wondering if that's going to be part of the ending of this one. But that would be a really busy ending. But I think it makes sense to do it at the end of a season also because, I mean, yeah, we've said spoilers for beginning of book five.

[00:11:25] This means she's not coming back for a presumptive season four and there better freaking be a season four. And yeah, so it makes sense to wrap up the season that way. And if you have, if you set it up like that, where she's like, I know I have to die in order for Lan to live, then it adds more weight up front to that sacrifice. Right. Yeah, I think that would make sense.

[00:11:54] From a TV perspective, contracts and all that, I think it would make sense to do it at the end of a season when it really happens at the beginning of a book in the books. Right. And of course, how does she know all this? Well, a big feature of this season is going to be the Ayo Waste. Also, what they call the threefold land because they say it toughens and strengthens them. And yeah, we hear in the trailer, we heard last season this word Karakarn.

[00:12:22] You know, he who comes with the dawn is one of the titles that Rand has to achieve as in, you know, in his dragon dominance of the world, basically. And we know we're going to get the Shido clan who are antagonists. And again, yeah, he was talking about, you know, Marilyn saying that are is anyone who's not who's who seems like an antagonist. Are they all dark friends?

[00:12:47] And the Shido clan, there are dark friends, but there are also just people who are antagonists. And of course, it's another big character. Maybe we shouldn't mention. Yeah. But yeah, we see like Kula Dean in in the trailer, who's a big antagonist for Rand. So and we see what did you think about the glimpses we got of Roy D. And the I'll city. I really liked it. I really liked it.

[00:13:16] I think that the rings especially look amazing. Like I could have never imagined a ring set up like that, but it makes so much sense. And I'm really glad that they look different from the white tower rings. Right. I always thought like, oh, you keep having these rings around, right? Like, are they just going to look the same every time and like, all right, we're doing another ring section. But no, they did really, really good job with that. Yeah, it looks really cool. And the glass columns, too. So basically, like Rand goes through the glass columns.

[00:13:45] Moraine goes through the rings and they get these visions of for Rand. And it's especially like the past leading up to the present and Moraine. It sounds like it sounds like we're going to get like the flicker flicker is a thing that we were all hoping for from season two. And they didn't fit it in because they didn't do the portal stones, which I understand. That is like a whole other lore wrinkle that just makes sense to cut. So it looks like you don't think they're going to do the stones at all.

[00:14:15] I don't think so. No, I think there's enough ways for them to get around. And I think Moraine's going to see the flicker flicker in the rings, which is basically all these different worlds and possibilities. And that's why she would say, you know, every world I see where I live, Rand dies. Right, right. Yeah. All right. Yeah, that makes sense.

[00:14:39] The flicker flicker will also probably play into, we know that Teller on Riyadh, the dream world. They introduced it in last season especially, but that's definitely going to play a bigger role. Yeah, especially with, I know you have listed here too, is one of the things to talk about, Mogadine coming in. I think Mogadine is one of the creepiest but most interesting forsaken to me because it's always described like she's a coward, right? Like she is a coward.

[00:15:09] She will stay in the shadows. Softly, softly from the shadows. Yeah. Yeah. She'll stay in the shadows until she thinks she has a clear shot. But she's incredibly strong when she does fight. Right. That's an interesting villain to me. Yes. Yeah, I'm very excited about her. She looks super creepy in the trailers. They have her with these like black fingertips. Yeah, we know she's going to have, they've teased some of the most iconic confrontations she has in the trailer with like Nynaeve and Lanfear. Yeah.

[00:15:40] Yeah. There's a shot of Nynaeve I wanted to bring up. There's a shot of Nynaeve like going over Perrin. Do you see that as a flicker? Going over Perrin? What do you mean? She was like standing over Perrin. Oh. And she had like markings on her face. Oh. Was that Nynaeve? It flashed really quickly. It looked like Nynaeve. Yeah. I know what you mean. And I do think it was Nynaeve.

[00:16:04] But it could be also, we know Perrin, well yeah, because we know Perrin's going to go back to the Two Rivers this season. We're going to get the Battle of the Two Rivers, he's going to meet up with the Tinkers again and stuff. But Nynaeve, I don't know, will she go back there? We know that she and a bunch of other characters are going to end up in another city called Tanchico. So I don't know if that's a flicker or dream, you know, telling Ron Riyad or what.

[00:16:37] Are you excited about Fael or Zarin? I say Fael. Fael, yeah, that makes sense. Fael, which means Falcon, and that is the chosen name of a princess of sorts from Saldea named Zarin. Yeah. She and Perrin, we see them kissing. Fael is such a messy character. Like, I think I'm fine with her.

[00:17:04] I do not have, like, the visceral hatred that the fandom seems to sometimes. She is problematic. She is, like, a very toxic partner to Perrin sometimes. But she also is ride or die, and I appreciate that. Mm-hmm. Like, she does, and I don't want to get into later spoilers, but I think she redeems herself in a lot of ways. Yeah, and I think that the show knows what annoys the fandom about her in earlier parts of her story.

[00:17:33] And I think that the show is going to probably approach that a little bit differently so that she's less annoying at that point. We can dream. We can dream. Look, Robert Jordan is horrendous at writing romance. Like, let's just admit it. And so, while I don't want them to change the big moments of all these plot lines, I am totally fine with them rewriting some of these romances. I mean, they did a great job rewriting Lan and Dainee. I thought that that felt much more natural in the show than it did in the books.

[00:18:03] Yeah, except the whole big line from the first season landed with a bit more of a thunk. But I'm going to blame COVID on that because that was a finale thing. Fair enough. But speaking of rewriting romances, so, yeah, I don't know how much of this we want to say, but about Ren's romances. First of all, it looks like we're getting the Egwene breakup, which makes sense.

[00:18:27] But also, there is a scene that suggests maybe something that fans have been hoping for, which is a more overt romance between Elaine and Avienda. Romance? Mm-hmm. You think there's a romance between them? They're sisters. Uh-huh. First sisters. Yep, yep, yep. Just like, yeah. All right, all right.

[00:18:47] I mean, this goes back to also, you know, where in the prequel book, Robert Jordan's like, oh, well, you know, Swan and Moraine were pillow sisters, but women grow out of that. And, you know, the gay showrunner, Rafe Judkins, is like, no, fuck that. Like, if you— I never read this, though. Like, this never popped out to me. And I'm not, like, averse to that. I just—I just—like, I did get that sense from Moraine and Swan. Like, that made a lot of sense to me. Yeah.

[00:19:17] Elaine and Avienda, I really never even considered that as a possibility. Okay, well, my hope is that they establish their own romance on their own, and then they can, you know, whatever polycule happens, it happens on more even footing. Of the things that don't make sense in the books, the polycule of Rand and all his ladies never really made that much sense to me, but I just went with it for the ride.

[00:19:46] Yeah. So did they. Yeah. But I think that, yeah, this would feel much better to me if—and there's just—there's a look exchange between them in the trailer that has people like, okay, okay, let's see, let's see. We have—so back in the Waste, we have Egwene continuing her training tour. And so Egwene's going to the Waste rather than—Matt went to the Waste in the books, but he's going to Ten Chico in the show on the other side of the continent.

[00:20:18] And, yeah, this is all—I think this is all just, like, kind of fallout from the fact, you know, what changed with the Matt actor not coming back at the end of season one and everything that's followed from there. And also, I think, to me, it makes sense to have Egwene get her Aiel Wise One training in the Waste. I don't think they're going to do that whole thing when they're, like, camping outside Karian for however long. Well, she starts it in the Waste in the books, too.

[00:20:46] And they're there, I think, for a pretty decent amount of time. Like, they're traveling over the Waste for a while. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that eventually the Aiel Wise Ones will come to the wetland. Right, right. To Ranlan. Season four, which is happening. Give us season four. Announce it. I hope so. Look, the show has really improved a lot. And this trailer is— I think it was good from the first episode. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think there were good parts of it from the first episode.

[00:21:17] There were a lot of things that bothered me in season one, and I'm not going to keep harping back on that because we've improved. And I'm taking the show as where it was at at the end of season two, which was very helpful for me. Yeah, and season three looks to be even better. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm really hoping they execute everything well. Everything just looks beautiful. I think they've really finally nailed, like, the channeling visuals, which is very important for this. So, yeah. I'm very happy with everything. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm excited.

[00:21:46] You know, there's a lot of key story elements that kick into play here. You know, we have—in the Waste, we have Ruark, who's an important clan chief. He's going to be played by Bjorn Landberg, and people thought he was going to be Asmodian when we knew he was going to be in the show, but now we know he's definitely—he's Ruark. Do you think we're going to get Asmodian? I don't know. We're going to get eight Forsaken, and we're not as sure exactly which ones, and Asmodian has not yet been name-dropped.

[00:22:15] So, maybe not. That was one of the ones I hoped for, but I don't know. Let's see. Let's see. They'll probably combine characteristics of others. He's another one, though, that disappears. Yeah. Like, just nopes out, and we never see him again. Yeah, but then there's that interesting spinoff story about him on another continent, which is a whole—yeah, that's way, way later. But, yeah, I would love to see that. But that could be another character that does it.

[00:22:43] Like, we are getting Robin, we know, this season. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. That's cool. That's cool. Yeah, look, I think that you could easily write Asmodian out and just have Ran learn from, like, Shadow Luz. Right. Right, exactly. I mean, they've also set it up with Loghain, and then if he's learning from Loghain, then that makes sense for Black Tower stuff that comes later. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:14] I just think that there are so many ways around using Asmodian, and that would be totally fine. Yeah. And you don't really need another Bardish character. Like, you already have Tom. Mm-hmm. You already have, for the comedy, you have Matt. And I hope they give Matt more of a chance to be funny this season. One thing I really liked in this trailer is- You have to watch the Matt promo. Okay. He's full Matt personality. They replaced his bathrobe with a book personality, so- Good. Yeah. That's very good.

[00:23:41] As long as they don't go full where Brandon Sanderson went in the last three books, where he just made him Wayne from the Mistborn series. Mm-hmm. I don't- I didn't read that, so- Okay. Well, Wayne is one of my least favorite fantasy characters of all time. Okay. Brandon Sanderson. I will never forgive this one thing, which is that he rewrote Matt in his- because, you know, he finished the books. If you're listening and you don't know this, Brandon Sanderson had to finish the last three books of Wheel of Time because Robert Jordan died. Mm-hmm. And he wrote Matt so badly in the first, like, two books.

[00:24:08] He kind of got there eventually, but it was never the same. Mm-hmm. But he really wrote him, like, Wayne from the Wax and Wayne series in Mistborn, which is just such an obnoxious character. And Brandon Sanderson, I think he's a lovely man and he can't write comedy. He just can't write comedy the way Robert Jordan can. So I just don't want that. I don't want it to be, like, cartoonish. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Matt has, like, a sarcastic humor to him that needs to be- like, the glibness needs to be there. Yes.

[00:24:38] Well, you have to watch this Matt promo. You will be very happy with that. It is perfect. Okay, good. Good. But I'm hoping there's some in the poster we got, there's some foreshadowing that, you know, one of his eyes is covered. Mm-hmm. He looks like he might have something around his neck on, like, a, you know, leather rope or something. Mm-hmm. Maybe a medallion. Mm-hmm. I'm really hoping, speaking of Brandon Sanderson, that he was wrong about that knife tied to, the dagger tied to the stick being his ashander eye,

[00:25:08] his weapon, because I'm hoping he gets a proper functioning weapon this time. Yeah. I don't think they can do that with later. I mean, I guess there are ways around it, but I don't think it would be as satisfying if he didn't get weapon. Right. Exactly. In the portal. Right. Yeah. And I hope that they do the snakes and foxes, the Eelfin and Alfin. I do, too. Which is, like, another dimension for anyone who doesn't know. And they, yeah, there's all these rules in this dimension.

[00:25:36] And they are just, like, really creepy, cool characters. They could show up this season. That could be something that they save for season four. But, like, maybe we just see a certain red door and then find out in the next season or so what happens on the other side of it, you know? Yeah. I'm, yeah, I would be okay if they, like, left that for next season. But at the same time, that's part of Moraine's disappearance. Mm-hmm. So can you fully get rid of that?

[00:26:06] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. We'll be right back with more Wheel of Time. And we're back. They are changing up some things.

[00:26:35] Oh, it was cool, by the way, we saw a gold dragon tattoo, which is important with the Isle clan chiefs. We know the wise ones are coming. We see a wise one say to Egwene, you do not belong here, which you could think would mean the waste. But I think it means Teleron Riyat. Yeah, that's basically exactly what Amos says to Egwene in Teleron. Teleron Riyat. Yeah. In the books. But they are changing up some things.

[00:27:01] Of course, they're simplifying the whole Isle clan system, which, yeah, fair, you know, we don't have time for all those different sects. Sects, sorry. But we, so we, Bear and Malayne, they are swapped, which one can channel. And then Melindra is now a survivor of Malkir, which is where Lan is from. He told that story in season one where Malkir fell. He was like the crown prince of Malkir. Right, right. So now she's going to be Malkir.

[00:27:31] It's a little Aragorn-y. It's okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. But I think that's interesting to give another tie to Malkir, not just like forget about that part of his backstory. Yeah. I didn't realize that they were doing the Malkir thing here. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We, yeah, we said more forsaken coming. There's eight in the show. We know Lanfear is obviously back. She plays a prominent role. Her fighting with Moraine, her kissing Rant, her tormenting Egwene.

[00:28:00] What was interesting, though, is Shamail, who we saw die at the end of the last season, is on the poster. Do you think they're going to, um, Morden doesn't come in until much later. But do you think they're going to just have him be Morden? Maybe. I would never even. Maybe he takes a new name, but he doesn't change appearance. Yeah. I mean, people can't like, we can't pretend that we don't know who he is, though.

[00:28:27] If he, like the other forsaken know who he is, if he doesn't change his appearance. But I can see them just not wanting to lose, um, Faris Faris. I feel like it doesn't even matter that much, the mystery of it, though. Like, I was never, like, caught up on who is Morden that much. Yeah. No, it's true. Like, I, I, I don't know. I think it would have been totally fine if, if it's not. Um, we see some bubbles of evil as well. That looks fun. So, um, I've been waiting for that to play out.

[00:28:58] Yeah. More, more of, like, the Tavirian weirdness. Yeah. And, and I hope they explain it well, because that's a weird concept, too. Mm-hmm. Of, like, it's bubbles of evil. But, I mean, you'll have us here to explain it. It's bubbles of evil following the strands of the pattern. Mm-hmm. And sort of being drawn to where Tavirian are. I think that's true. Right. And the Tavirian, again, are, like, the being, the people who bend the pattern toward them, kind of. Yeah.

[00:29:23] I still, I'm a little, I still have a few gripes about making Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elaine Tavirian. And I'll tell you why. Because I think that. I feel strongly that it was a good idea. I think that part of what makes them interesting is that they're not Tavirian, and yet they still make mountains move. But it is weird. And it makes them even more impressive than the Tavirian trio. But it's very weird that all the boys are Tavirian and all the girls are not.

[00:29:51] So if you want to do that, then you would have to mix it up some in order to not make it a little less overtly. There are some gender issues in the books. Yeah, there are. There are. And this is one of them. I did not consider that one of them just because I thought it was, I don't know, I thought highly of the Wonder Girls. Because I was like, they are just moving shit on their own. Like, nobody needs to help them. The creator doesn't need to help them. They're fine.

[00:30:16] I mean, yeah, I think it makes sense to put all of the Emmons Field characters on equal footing in that regard. And also make sense about how Maureen gathers them all up so quickly and moves. Especially considering they had to streamline the whole Emmons Field and then leaving Emmons Field process in the show. Right. Runtimes. I'm excited to see them in Tenchico.

[00:30:41] We see there's a lot of, Tenchico is a place where everyone's wearing different kind of veils and there's like high fashion. We see Matt is going full into the fashion, which does fit his book character. I mean, we see Lan and Nynaeve together in the trailer, but I guess they're going to then go their separate ways for the rest of the season.

[00:31:02] I am excited we see a tease of the Panarchs Palace, which is how much do you think they're going to lean into what's suggested in the book about the fact that this is an iteration of our own world? And so in the Panarchs Palace, we see like skeletons and stuff from animals that we know, but they don't like a giraffe. Yeah, I think that we'll see a few things. I mean, we've already.

[00:31:29] I feel like they've already hinted in the show of like this being a cyclical thing in the future of our world. But I think it'll get it more explicit with this scene with the Panarchs Palace. Yeah. Yeah, I'm excited about that whole thing. I hope we get Iganen. We had Dolman last season.

[00:31:50] And so, yeah, I hope we get that whole story with Iganen, the Shanchen, who maybe has a change of heart. Can I confess that I've never been like a huge Iganen stan? Like, she's fine. You said that before. I like her, though. She's fine. Like, I just never felt like there was that much characterization there. Like, I didn't really get her personality beyond. I am very loyal to the Shanchen and now I'm not.

[00:32:20] And I just never felt like she was a fully fleshed out character. I mean, and they could change that in the show. I just think that there are a lot more interesting characters. Okay. Okay. I mean, yeah. I always was interested in her because she has this real, she has one of the most, it's where we get some of the most insight into the Shanchen is through her.

[00:32:43] And also through her struggle of being kind of a middle management Shanchen, you know, where she has a certain amount of power that obviously gives her a self-worth. But then she's also knocked down a whole bunch of rungs because of, you know, the plot reasons, things that she does and responses to that and how she responds to that. And learning to build self-worth outside her status in that culture. I find all that very interesting.

[00:33:11] I would rather get Tuon earlier and have insight into the Shanchen that way. Hmm. I think that that would be my preferred way, but I won't be mad if they have a Gaiden. I just, I just don't know if I need it. I mean, but they're so different. They, they, you, Tuon does not fit because Tuon is, you know, she, she is never going to be knocked down. She's cocky until the end. Sure.

[00:33:36] Gaiden goes through this complete other journey that, yeah, you can't substitute her plot line with Tuon's because they're just in completely different places in the hierarchy. And, and everything that happens with them. And we already have Doman and they need to. Well, Alicia, we've, we've said this was going to be 30 minutes and now we're talking about Shanchen politics. So let's, let's go on to the rest of what we have to say. Okay.

[00:34:00] Well, just, I mean, I guess the last major set piece we haven't talked about yet is they're finally introducing Camelin, which is the capital city of Andor, which is where the two rivers is. But this is the two rivers is like that remote mountainous region. And Camelin is, it's one, it's the second largest city in the world after Tarvalon. Is that correct? I think so. I think so. But it's also much different because, you know, Tarvalon is really like kind of ruled unofficially by the Aes Sedai.

[00:34:30] And then. And then that's an island city state and Camelin is. Yeah. Right. This is a whole kingdom. Right. Right. And we get, we're getting more guys who is, so we had Elaine is the daughter heir. More guys is her mother played by Olivia Williams. Her Aes Sedai advisor is a red Aja Aleda played by Shorah Agdashloo. Hold on. Did you say more guys? Yeah. I've never heard more guys before. I always hear more gays. More gays. Okay. Well, fine.

[00:35:00] We'll see how they say it. I would put money that they're going to say more gays in the show. Probably. Probably. Don't. I mean, this is one of those things like I don't listen to the, to the audio books. So I just. I've done both. Uh-huh. I've read all of like the pronunciations in the back of the book, but I may or may not. That is how I learned to pronounce like 90 for instance, but I may or may not follow the, my head says what my head says. Yeah.

[00:35:29] Well, also there's like seven different ways they say Moraine in the books and the show. Like the show isn't even fully consistent on it. Sometimes it's Moraine. Sometimes it's Moraine. Sometimes it's Moraine. You know what? When people pronounce my name, everyone says it differently. So I get that. Fair enough. Fair enough. Just another thing that Moraine and I have in common. She's the same height as me in the books, by the way.

[00:35:53] When you first started writing into the show, Alicia, before you became a lore hound, I had to, every now and then I would see your name in the outline and I would put in parentheses, A-L-I-C-I-A for David. Because David would always say like, Alicia. And I was like, nope, nope. I'm going to put this in parentheses. Yeah. But people who have the same spelling as me, everyone who I've talked to, we all pronounce it differently. So. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:22] Well, I hope everyone has a lovely time saying Alicia because it's Alicia here. Yes. It's Alicia. Don't mess it up. Well, so, okay. So I mentioned Robin and again, we said spoilers, spoilers. There's, uh, so Morgat, Morgat, Morgays, sorry. She, uh, she has Lord Gabriel. I think Lord Gabriel might replace, um, what's his face? Who, you know, another reason why I think Swan might die is, uh, the, the head of, of the castle guard.

[00:36:51] I think that might just be Lord Gabriel in this, just to simplify things. Um. Oh, you think they're going to get rid of, um, Gareth Brynn entirely? I think maybe, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I could see it. I could see it. I'd be okay with it. Yeah. I like him. I don't love him. Mm-hmm. I think, I think he's, he's, he's an interesting character because he's really into like duty. I will say we've already gotten rid of one of the great generals. Mm-hmm.

[00:37:19] And I'm worried that we're going to lose that really interesting plot line in the last couple books. Yeah. I mean, well, I guess we're going to have, uh, Fael's father, you know, and, um, who is still in my head. It's Pedro Pascal, but I'm sure they've cast somebody else. Um, uh, yeah, I think we're going to get some, but it's like the IO clan chiefs. Like they just have to really tone it down. There's so many, there's hundreds of characters in these books. Yeah.

[00:37:47] I, I know, I know they have to, but. Yeah. And we've talked about some cuts they can make already. You put here the stick fight, um, which I'm very excited for. We're getting, we're getting Galad and Gawain who are the brothers of, of Elaine. And yeah, there are teases both in terms of talking about the season to come and also in terms of what we've seen in the trailer that we will get this iconic stick fight with Matt. Uh, yeah. I'm very excited. I mean, Galad is, is really one of the most interesting characters in the whole series, I think. Hmm.

[00:38:17] Um, I, he starts off really annoying and he just gets more interesting as it goes on. Yeah. And I appreciate his plot line and I hope they do it justice. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he has a really interesting plot line. I would actually not mind at all if, oh, maybe I shouldn't say this, but if, um, things with Eguain and the two brothers went the other way. Oh, absolutely. Gawain can eat my poo.

[00:38:43] I mean, I am, I am like the most anti-Gawain person you can find. I'm not as anti-Gawain as other people, but, um. Well, I am. I just think it's more interesting given Galad and his personality and, and what, where he come, what he comes to stand for in the series. Um, it would be interesting. Yeah. Kill him off early, Gawain. Just kill him off early. Do it. Hmm. Do it, showrunners. You heard me.

[00:39:12] Yeah. Or maybe they swap their personalities. People are not happy with the Galad casting because, uh. Really? Yeah. It turned up some right-wing tweets and stuff. Oh. I barely, we barely saw him. We haven't seen him at all yet. Oh, I thought he was in the trailer. Oh, yeah, yeah. In the trailer. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. But we've known about the casting for months, so. Okay. Yeah. But yeah, so, uh, what else? Uh, any other hopes for season three?

[00:39:43] Kill off Gawain. Um, other than that, I mean, look, they just have to really nail the Aiel. I mean, they're, they're the Fremen, right? Like, they are such a core part of this story. Um, you know, as I've been reading Dune, I've kind of started to, started, started to reconcile my thoughts between that and Wheel of Time. Because, I mean, Robert Jordan straight up does steal some ideas from Dune. Some, I think some tropes.

[00:40:09] But what I, what I've come to think is, like, he's stealing a lot of, like, the colors that, that, that Frank Herbert created. Mm-hmm. But he's painting such a different picture with them. Right. That it's interesting to me. Like, he, the, the Aiel do not serve the same purpose as the Fremen. Mm-hmm. And they don't, they don't act like the Fremen all the time either. And, and, uh, the, look, yes, the missionary protectiva have been very busy on this planet.

[00:40:39] Mm-hmm. But they, they have, they, I feel like they feel honestly more independent than the Fremen do. By the end of, of the Dune stuff. Mm-hmm. And I appreciate that. I agree. I think he goes deeper into that culture, Robert Jordan versus what we get with the Fremen in, uh, in the books. Yeah.

[00:41:03] Um, although I think that Villeneuve has done a pretty good job in the movie, new movie adaptations of giving the Fremen more. Well, I haven't finished part two yet, so. Well, you, I don't know what you're waiting for. I was like, ah, I'll finish it later. Okay. Um, yeah, for season three of this show, I, I'm really glad to see like some scenes of just characters hanging out in the trailer.

[00:41:27] I hope we get these moments are really key for me of just the relationships between the characters. And that's what really makes me root for them and care about the story. So, um, I know that, you know, they have to speed things up a lot, obviously for the TV show, but I think it is important that they carve out time for those moments of just having fun with your friends.

[00:41:50] Um, just to give you build on something so that when tension comes later, when there's like big political, uh, stakes at play, it's built on this familial, almost love between them. Right. Yeah. All right. I like it. I like it. I think we're going to have a great season three. Yeah. All right. If anyone wants to write in, um, please check the show notes for the email address, or you can always, uh, send it to lorehounds at the lorehounds.com.

[00:42:19] I just need to figure out what our wheel of time email address is. It's been a couple of years now. Okay. Uh, yeah, I'm really looking forward to, we're going to be doing a season pass. We'll talk about that, but there's going to be extra lore deep dives. Like we said, we're going to separate the, uh, non-spoilery bits with the spoilery bits and, and we're going to do full coverage on this. Uh, I cannot wait. Yeah. Oh, we didn't even say David's not joining us on this. It's you and me. Oh, right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:42:49] So I hope everyone has fun. Wish David well. He doesn't want to do any more wheel of time. He's sick of Rand. He doesn't want to see that whiny guy anymore. Well. I get it. Rand is a little whiny for a while, so I get it. Yeah, yeah. He's, but that's, I mean, so is, so is Luke Skywalker, you know? Oh, yeah. He's got to get some power converters. Yeah. All right. I mean, so is Paul Atreides. Not really, I guess. Paul Atreides had to grow up real fast. Yeah.

[00:43:19] He's, he, yeah. All right. We don't need, we don't need to do this. Anyway. Maybe that's one of our, we've been talking about doing like big picture podcast. Maybe we could do like the whiny hero at the beginning. Yeah. The whiny Messiah figure. Yeah. Yep. All right, everybody. We'll see you later. We'll see you over in Randland. Doviendi. Satovia. Saigon. The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds.

[00:43:45] You can send questions, feedback, and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and add free access to all our episodes at patreon.com slash thelorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Hey everyone, David here. Severance is back.

[00:44:14] The Lorehounds are partnering with Properly Howard to bring you in-depth weekly coverage of season two. Join me, John, Anthony, and Steve as we unpack every twist, theory, and revelation. We've created a dedicated feed just for our Severance coverage. Simply search for Severance Lorehounds in your podcast app or find the direct link in our link tree.

[00:44:41] Our weekly episodes dig deep into the show's mysteries, themes, and bigger questions about identity and consciousness that make Severance so compelling. Season Pass and regular community subscribers get ad-free access to our weekly episodes. Plus, exclusive content like our Supply Closet bonus series, featuring fascinating conversations with experts like the team from Nevermind the Music.

[00:45:07] We've explored the neuroscience of memory and personality, decoded the hidden meanings in the show's musical themes, and there's much more to come. You'll also get Steve and Anthony's complete season one rewatch series. We believe in total transparency with our listeners. And unlike Mammalians Nurturable, we're happy to share all of our secrets.

[00:45:33] Find the link for the Severance feed in the show notes below, or search Severance Lorehounds wherever you get your podcasts. Come theorize with us about what's really happening at Lumen.