Thunderbolts* (2025) – MCUniverse

[00:00:24] Welcome to the next Comics vs. Exploration of the MC Universe. We are The Lorehounds, your light in the void. I'm Alicia, the girl who liked to play goalie so that I didn't have to run as much. And I'm Jean, the guy who would throw you out a window, then pull you back in just to tell you to kick rocks. That's me. And this is the Comics vs. Deep Dive into Thunderbolts.

[00:00:49] And warning spoilers for everything Marvel's on the table, but we will start with some spoiler-free hot takes before giving you the spoiler warning. So we're going to talk about what we thought for those of you who are considering whether or not to see this film. The logline is, ensnared in a death trap, an unconventional team of antiheroes, Yelena Belova, Bucky Barnes, Red Guardian, Ghost, Taskmaster, and John Walker,

[00:01:15] embarks on a dangerous mission that forces them to confront the darkest corners of their past. Jean, hot take spoiler-free, what did you think of this movie? I actually loved it. Yay. I did. I did. I had reservations going into the movie because I thought it would be hard to do Bob on screen. But I absolutely loved this movie.

[00:01:45] I think it's one of the better MCU movies out there, regardless of what phase you want to talk about. It's one of the better movies that they've made.

[00:01:57] And I'm really glad that they brought this ragtag group of characters together that probably not many people outside hardcore MCU people or comic book heads know a lot about and gave them this story to introduce them to the larger world. I thought it was well done.

[00:02:24] And just, yeah, I will rave about this movie for quite a while. I really liked it. Yeah. Yeah. For me, this is my second favorite film of 2025 so far after, of course, Sinners. And I think that, honestly, that's the only thing that it suffers in comparison to Sinners. But I'm so glad that we have two excellent films that I can tell everyone to go see in the theaters right now.

[00:02:51] Like, these are films that are going to entertain the hell out of you. And these are also films that are going to make you feel things and think about things on a deeper level. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I had you in mind as I was watching and like, oh, how are they going to handle Bob? Bob, but just, I mean, I could tell from the opening monologue that Yelena gives, I could tell that they were going at this from the right angle.

[00:03:19] You know, this really is a film about mental health, but also with some really cool fight scenes and, you know, action sequences. Yeah. It's, I think, yeah, I, the movie makes you think about things that are happening in everyday life. Mm-hmm.

[00:03:43] And being a comic book movie, when things like that are able to occur, to happen on screen, and you feel it, like this is part of what everyone kind of goes through at some point. But you're getting it in this superhero flick. It's just, it's just so, so damn special. Yeah.

[00:04:09] And, you know, we often talk about how, you know, these type of movies don't get the respect that they should just because of the nature of the characters and the nature of the story that people know, the source material. But you can't, sometimes the fantastical can lead you to some really wonderful truths, right? Mm-hmm.

[00:04:38] And I think this is one of those, one of the movies that does that really well. Yeah. Yeah, we were having a great conversation just before recording about that in the Murderbot. Yeah, yeah. I hijacked Murderbot feed episode one. My bad, my bad. No, no. This is exactly the kind of conversation that we want, you know, that we want good storytelling to engender, you know? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:05:04] Critical thinking that's, that is praise, but also how can we continue to better tell stories that teach us more about the world? And this is, this is definitely contributing to that. Like, I like, it bridges that line where it's just, it is really just a well-written story about characters that I just want to hang out with, you know? I want to spend time with them in the theaters.

[00:05:27] I mean, I don't know if I want to hang out with them, but, you know, I'm not, I'm not pulling Obama, let me have a beer with you type of situation. I don't know. I would smoke a blunt with them. I don't know about that. I don't know. But yeah, at the same time, it also has these fantastic moments where like, there's one thing that Bucky did at one point that made me shout out cool in the theater.

[00:05:56] And I loved, I love the music by the way. It's a Sunlux soundtrack. Sunlux also did the soundtrack for Everything Everywhere All At Once. They were nominated for that. And yeah, they just, and when I see their name now, I get excited. Good. Good stuff, man. It's a good movie. It's a really good movie. This is the final film and, and penultimate project in phase five of the MCU. So we're coming to a strong end.

[00:06:24] The movies in this phase were Ant-Man and the Wask, Quantumania, Guardians of the Galaxy, Volume 3, The Marvels, Deadpool and Wolverine, Captain America, Brave New World, Thunderbolts. Of those, I think most of those are quite good. There's two where I'm like, meh. Which two? Don't, don't, don't be shy. Which two? I won't, I won't be shy. Quantumania and, and Captain America, Brave New World is, is my lowest rated of this batch. Okay. Yeah.

[00:06:54] Um, in order of favorites for me in this batch would be Thunderbolts, um, Marvels, um, Ant-Man. Okay. Okay. Um, we're swapping Ant-Man-ing. Okay. And then Captain America. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Okay. I'm going to go Thunderbolts.

[00:07:18] I'm going to go, um, then Guardians, then Marvels, then Deadpool and Wolverine. Then, um, where are we? Ant-Man than Captain America. Uh, and I forgot to rank Deadpool and Wolverine. So that tells you how I feel about that movie. Um, so strictly, I don't know if I like it better than Captain America, Brave New World. Okay.

[00:07:48] But that's just me. Okay. Fair, fair. So Deadpool and Wolverine occupy the same space as Captain America. All right. And, and as far as the phase five shows, we've, I think it's been with one notable exception. Oh, wait, no, that wasn't this phase. Yes, it was. Yes, it was. All right. With one notable exception, I think it's been pretty solid. So I'm including I am Groot, those little baby Groots shorts. They were cute. Uh, Secret Invasion.

[00:08:17] Oh, we don't even say the name. We don't talk about that one. No, no. That one. Loki season two. Uh, what if Echo, Agatha all along, your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man, Daredevil born again, and then coming up to end the phase is Ironheart on June 4th. I mean, that's pretty strong stuff. That's pretty. Yeah. That. Yeah. One little stumble in there, but yeah. That's one major stumble.

[00:08:44] One major stumble, but everything else is just really, really good. Yeah. Really, really good. So people catch up if you haven't. This is all worth watching. Um, so the director of this film is Jake Schreier. This is his third feature only after Robot and Frank and Paper Towns, which were both really strong features with emotional cores. Uh, but interesting adventure as well.

[00:09:12] Uh, the writers were Eric Pearson, who's, he's like a big member of the Marvel stable. You'll often see his name as rewriting a lot of doing rewrites of a lot of the biggest films like Infinity War and Endgame and stuff too. Um, most notably for this, he did the screenplay for Black Widow. So you can see how that character banter came back into this. And he's also one of the writers in the new Fantastic Four movie.

[00:09:39] And the other writers, Joanna Kahlo, who, yeah, she's got nothing but hits as far as I can see. Bojack Horseman, Hacks, Beef. Like, this is a powerhouse writer of this emotional stuff. Nuanced and, but also fun and dark humor. Yeah. Did you find it a funny movie? In spots, yes. Hmm. Yes, in spots. Darkly humorous.

[00:10:07] Um, it's, it's only been on a few weeks so far. We are a bit late with the, but it's still, it's in theaters. Uh, so it's still collecting money. So far as of May 15th, it's 280 million, uh, box office on an 80 million budget. So this is quite a modest budget for an MCU film. For an MCU, yeah. And I think they should do more of this, frankly. I think this was great.

[00:10:34] Um, they did a lot of practical effects and, um, I think not, I mean, of course, yeah, pull out the big guns for your secret wars or whatever. But I think a lot of the in-between movies should be of this size in scope. I would love that. Um, the reviews lean quite positive on Rotten Tomatoes, 88% from critics, 94% from audiences

[00:10:58] on Metacritic, 68% of, of critics liked it, a 7.4 from audiences and a 3.7 out of five on Letterboxd. So how would you rank this on the Pukila scale for emotional and physical violence? Oh, wow. I think it's high. Yeah. Because of the emotional side? Yeah, for the emotional stuff. Hmm. I would recommend this to anyone who doesn't know Pukila scale is named after Marilyn, our

[00:11:28] favorite Tolkien scholar who doesn't like physical or emotional violence in movies. But I would probably recommend this one to her though, just because of the sensitivity around the discussion of mental health. That is, that's a good point. That's a good point. I mean, it's not like terribly off-putting, you know what I mean? But there's still some, there's some stuff in there that can, you know, send you in a,

[00:11:56] in a ways that you are, may not expect from a movie featuring the MCU characters. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, yeah, there's going to be a discussion of, of, of, you have dark mental states. So. Yeah. It's cathartic, I found. And how, and how you get into those states and how you try to come out of them. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:12:21] Would you say this is one that people should see in the theater or do you think it's okay to wait until it comes out at home? You know, I, I, I'm a proponent of telling people go to the theater. So, but quite honestly, there's, I didn't see, I'm not the visuals guy. So there's, there, there are no aspects that I can say to anyone, you know, you would get

[00:12:47] a better feel for the movie in a theater than rather at home on the screen. There's no, nothing visually or nothing auditory that I can say. You have to see it in a larger screen as possible. So, so take that for what, what you will. I think that there are great action scenes. And what I especially liked about this is that there was, um, this was less of just a

[00:13:13] commercial project in the way it was shot and more like, uh, I really liked the framing of, of, you know, the shots that was done. It was done in a more thoughtful, intimate way, the cinematography. Um, but there were still big action scenes. So obviously it's always going to be a bit better in a theater, but I honestly think the strongest strength of this film is, is the character. Yeah. Yeah. And if, if that's better for you at home, then okay.

[00:13:42] Yeah. Although I want to see it do well, obviously. That's why, you know, we are proponents of going to see it in the theater so we could get more of these types of films. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So I'll say, uh, if you do watch it at home, preferably rent it or watch it on Disney where it gets logged that people are watching it. Right. Yeah. Or rewatch it there, whatever works for you. All right. Any final things that you would say to the people who have not seen the film yet before

[00:14:12] we get into spoilers? No, this, this talk about the movie and maybe the, you know, if they stick around, the spoilers won't turn them off. Okay. All right. Uh, we're going to take a quick break and when we get back, the spoiler veil will be lifted.

[00:14:46] Okay. So as far as the timeline of this, we think that it's about April, 2020. Seven, about 14 months after Captain America four, because we see Washington monument that was damaged, uh, has scaffolding around it. And just, there's some references to, um, to the, the president turning into a Hulk and things like that. So, uh, that's probably when it's set. We get this opening of Yelena. She, we hear this depressed voiceover.

[00:15:16] There's something wrong with me. Avoid. I thought it started when my sister died, but now it seems like something bigger, just a void. Or maybe I'm just bored, which as soon as I heard that I was immediately in because it's such a, an accurate representation of depression that, you know, it's, it is this feeling depression isn't really just being sad. It's about being, feeling empty.

[00:15:46] Right. Avoid. Avoid. Or, you know, where you're just like, or maybe I'm just bored, but it's, you just can't get excited for things. Wow. And then we see her jump from the second tallest building in the world, which is Merdeka 118 in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Um, and I didn't even think about this because I guess I knew going in, but it was sort of framed to look like a suicide. But then of course she, but I didn't think she was committing suicide. Did you? I didn't. I didn't. Not for one second. Yeah.

[00:16:16] We were supposed to be tricked. Yeah. They didn't trick me. No. I saw it was a cool jump. And then we get, um, you know, we just were covering daredevil. Well, we get an overhead hallway fight here with shadows on the floor. That was wonderful. That was, that was awesome. That was awesome. And definitely foreshadowing the shadow stuff we get with the voice later too. Yeah. Yeah. What did you think of this whole opening, uh, with Yelena's voiceover and action?

[00:16:45] I think she's a great point of view character. Mm-hmm. I, I just, you know, kudos to Florence Pugh for, you know, breathing life into this character because it could have very well gone sourly. Um, the portrayal after Johansson's, um, black widow. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:17:08] Um, she's on screen and I think she's a better widow than widow. Mm-hmm. For me personally. She's more personality. Yeah. Yeah. And I think she brings a whole different level of, of thought and emotion into the character that she's portraying than what we had before.

[00:17:32] Um, the opening sequence when, as you just said, she, you know, maybe I'm just bored. Right. After she says, it's, I thought it started when my sister died because grief can almost feel like depression, right?

[00:17:55] Like when you're, when you're grieving a great loss, you feel that void, that something is missing from your life. But it's not depression. And that's personally, that's something that I had to learn, um, you know, growing up, grief comes at you. It never leaves you. It comes at, in you at waves. At times you don't even understand why it's happening.

[00:18:23] You can not surpass it, but you learn how to ride those waves of emotion. Depression is not like, right? You need help to ride those waves of emotions when someone is dealing with a mental health

[00:18:52] issue such as that. And I think that this opening to hit you immediately with those two themes was something that I did not expect. I did not expect that because as I'm dealing with my own grief and my, and my life, it's

[00:19:21] not something that I thought I would be sitting watching in the first five minutes of this MCU movie and thinking about how her issues mirror my own and how they differ greatly. That make sense? Did I lose you? Oh, wait, no. Okay. Okay. It's fine. I just forgot. I muted myself.

[00:20:01] Okay. Okay. Marker back in. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that what, yeah, like I said, what people miss grief is something that has, you know, where it comes from. And depression is something where you are constantly searching. Like it's the same thing. So I hear like, what's causing this? What's causing this? And basically it comes down to often chemicals in your body.

[00:20:27] There are obviously triggers, but, um, it comes to down to like these chemical responses. And you see Yelena at this point, you know, she gets these instructions, go destroy this lab. And it's not her job to wonder whether she's doing the right thing. Um, it's not, and she, she just doesn't have the interest in doing that. Like, she's like, I'm going through the motions and that's the best that I can do right now.

[00:20:51] And so when we see her, as soon as like, she goes to see her father later and she is starting to think like, I don't know, maybe I want to do something different. Maybe I want to be a hero. This is starting to show that she's ready to fight out into caring. But even once you make that first step to indicate to people you love, okay, I'm ready to step out of this darkness. You still need help from people. Right.

[00:21:18] And you know, the fact that she makes those two statements in that opening scene, right? Whether I thought I was, it was because of my sister's death, but maybe it's not. Maybe I'm bored. You know, she's trying to work all of these things out. This feeling, this feeling that she's having, she's searching, like you said, why am I feeling this way?

[00:21:46] Like, you know, what's going on? And she recognizes that it's not because of, solely because of Black Widow's, you know, death that she feels the way that she feels. Something else is going on. And I think oftentimes, you know, there's always, you can, I can't speak for everyone, but I will speak for myself.

[00:22:15] Oftentimes, when I feel a ways about something, the something that I'm feeling a ways may be masking something else. Right. There might be something else that's bothering me, but I'm expressing it in a way that is not dealing with the thing that's really bothering me. Mm-hmm. Right. And you have to work this stuff out in your head. You have to figure it out.

[00:22:42] Therapy, however you want to try to get to those root causes, this is what we should try and endeavor to do. And I think that's what she's trying to do. She's trying to figure it out. And in just this short amount of time, I got all of that. Yeah. Yeah. And what I also admire about the film is, you know, we get this emotional voiceover while we're getting this action scene.

[00:23:08] And then it seamlessly blends into humor when it comes into focus and we see that she's monologuing this to a guy. She's tied up on one of her jobs. And then we get the guinea pig moment. She rescues the guinea pig. I love one of the favorite scenes. It was in the trailer when she's walking away with the guinea pig and she's like, oh, the job is, oh, wait. Yeah, it's done. It's done. And so I have to point out that the guinea pig does pop up in the end credits.

[00:23:36] The director says everyone asks him about the guinea pig. So hopefully we'll get more in the next movie. What did you think of, it feels like the most controversial scene or sequence, I guess I should say, it's a whole bunch of scenes, is the vault trap situation where basically Val, she's got this ox group thing where she's had her operatives cleaning up the operation because she's being investigated.

[00:24:06] And now she's like, OK, we've got all this stuff in this vault. I'm going to send them in each one to kill another one and then fire the vault so that they're all dead and all my dirty laundry is dead. But they figure out, yeah, John Walker, U.S. agent, sent to kill Yelena, who's sent to kill Ghost, Ava Starr, who's sent to kill Taskmaster. And after Taskmaster's done dirty, they figure out what's going on and start to fight back.

[00:24:34] What did you think about that whole sequence? I thought it was great. I didn't know that there was a hubbubaloo about it. I didn't hear it. I didn't hear it. I thought it was a great sequence. I thought the way that each character came into view and not knowing they're in the dark. There's a theme going on here. They don't know. They're in a place where they don't know much about what's going on.

[00:25:00] And not thinking, really, beyond their orders. You know, I'm sent to do this one thing and that's all I'm going to do, right? Until, you know, it's clear that something else is going on again, right? There's something else happening here.

[00:25:20] But when we see all of them in the room, they're not thinking about anything other than the mission that they were sent to do, which is to kill someone. Right? I thought that was well done. I thought it was well portrayed and how they had each of them individually had to come to the realization that they were being set up. Yeah. It wasn't like this whole group aha moment. Yeah. Which made it believable.

[00:25:49] Yeah, I thought it was quite believable. And I thought we needed this. First of all, yeah, we get that introduction to the characters, as you said. It gives them time to talk to each other and they are forced into sort of awkward teamwork. I guess my only small complaint, but, you know, thinking about it long and hard, I understand why they did it. But they did Taskmaster dirty. I mean, yeah, that was.

[00:26:16] And arguably, she's the best fighter out of all of them. I mean, yeah, she was up against someone supernatural. But yeah, I guess. But still, I mean, wow. The way she took her out too, it was just like, oh, I did not see it coming. It was like, I literally, I said, oh shit. Yeah. When, you know, she got taken out, I was like, wow, they really did that. Yeah. So this is a movie that's really pulling no punches. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:26:44] They said they did it to establish stakes. And I understand that. But there was a version where she stuck around. But I do, there are a few things where I'm like, oh, it would have been nice to get more of that. But when I think about it, this movie for me was balanced in its pacing and, you know, its runtime. And just the amount of storylines that it tried to juggle that I understand. Decisions like that. But I'm also, I'm also like, oh man, I don't know. I'm a little iffy on the Taskmaster thing.

[00:27:12] It's one of two quibbles I have. Things that you don't like. Okay. Mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. Quibbles. We'll see. Not even strongly dislike. Okay. For instance, Ghost. I wondered where's Bill Foster, her foster dad. I also did. Who's, we've seen him in What If? He's been showing up as a character. Yes. But I understand. Yeah. I'm glad we got a bit more of Ghost. I hope we do get more of her in the future. Because she had a fun personality in this. Yes.

[00:27:41] And I'd love to see more of that story. And where's Bill Foster and blah, blah. That's, when you say she had a fun personality in this, that's another thing about this movie that I really enjoyed is that it brought out the personalities of these characters. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. You really got to meet them and know them a little bit more so than, you know, they weren't, it wasn't fleeting, not for any of them. Um, they could have very much made this movie about, um, Yelena.

[00:28:11] Right? But they didn't. They made this movie about them. It wasn't just about this one character and how that character, you know, how they all revolve around her. Right? Mm-hmm. They made this movie about them. And I really liked that. I really did. Yeah. Yeah. Can I ask, what did you think of John Walker in this movie? Because I know you were not a fan coming out of Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Yeah, I'm still not a fan of John Walker.

[00:28:38] Um, I still think he's pompous, but they humanized him here in a way that he wasn't humanized in Captain America. Mm-hmm. In Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Right? Yeah. Um, so I enjoyed this John Walker much more than I enjoyed the John Walker in the TV series. Okay. Okay.

[00:29:00] Because they gave me more of, they gave me more to feel about him than what he was in Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Yeah. Yeah. We saw him with his wife in Falcon and the Winter Soldier and they seemed fairly happy, but we barely saw any of her, which is, it's ironic. This is a movie and there was more space for him, but I understand it's because that was, he was not one of the main characters in the other series. Right.

[00:29:23] But, um, do you think that the events of Falcon and the Winter Soldier, I mean, do you think that that ruined his marriage inadvertently because he became depressed after that? Yeah, I can see that. I can definitely see that because he wasn't a, when we, when we leave him in Falcon and Winter Soldier, he's not a very nice person. Mm-hmm. I'm just saying what it is. Mm-hmm.

[00:29:53] Not nice. Even at the start of this, he's, he's a jackass. Yeah. Yeah. And not just a jackass, you could be a jackass, but he's not nice. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? He's not, he's not somebody that you want to, you want to hang out with. Mm-hmm. It's not somebody that you want to have over at your house. Mm-hmm. Like, I wouldn't never invite him to meet my kid. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like, that's the type of person he is. I'm like, I want to keep you far away from my family, from my loved ones, from my friends.

[00:30:21] You know, this, like this work partner, this work person that you just, you know, have to put up with for a few hours. And as soon as those hours are done, you want to be as far away from that person as possible. That's who he is. Mm-hmm. So I can very well see the, the ego that he had being crushed in the way that it was

[00:30:44] leading to him having, you know, a terrible, terrible outcome for him and his wife. Mm-hmm. And his family, his burgeoning family. So yeah, I could, yeah. I think he's not in a good place in this, when this movie starts. Mm-hmm. He's not in a good place. Yeah. I love how he says, on your left. Yeah. Like, he's claiming, he's still claiming that cap role. But that made me laugh. Made me laugh.

[00:31:11] But yeah, I mean, I think that we, yeah, we see him as someone who, he was, by the way, he was going to be an antagonist in the original draft. Oh, I didn't know that. Okay. And I think they just felt that was too, I don't know, it got annoying, I think. If this was the draft, there was going to be more of Taskmaster and he was going to be more of an antagonist.

[00:31:36] And I'm actually, I miss having more of Taskmaster, but I'm really glad that they decided to make him, you know, an anti-hero that you can root to get better. Yeah. Root for to get better. Yeah, that was the right choice, definitely. Yeah. And so, okay, we also got in the sequence, the introduction to Bob, who was going to be played by Steven Yeun, but ended up, he ended up dropping out and we got Lewis Pullman instead,

[00:32:07] Bill's Pullman son, if you can't see it in the face. But yeah, what did you think of this casting? What did you think of this character? I mean, he did a great job. Mm-hmm. They really did a good job on Bob's last century. Mm-hmm. They really, it was, that character is so hard to portray, even on page, even in the comics,

[00:32:37] right? Because he's a character that is dealing with, you know, depression and he has a whole alternate personality, which is a parasitic, you know, cosmic being that's latched onto him. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So it's how they were able to pull it off in the way that they did to make him relatable was just amazing.

[00:33:06] I think the acting, the character portrayal, the writing, everything about Bob worked for me. Yeah. Yeah, I was bummed when Steven Yeun dropped out, but now I can't imagine it being anyone but Lewis Pullman. Yeah. Yeah. But he really nailed the, yeah, the complexity of this character. Absolutely. All the different sides. Yeah.

[00:33:34] Because when he pops out, he is this kind of, it's like, who are you? Who are you? He's Bob. I'm like, he's like, I'm Bob. I'm like, Bob, what do you mean you're Bob? How'd you get down here? Man, I don't know. I'm just here. That was great. It was great.

[00:33:54] So that just really hit, it's just a character that has the power of a billion exploding suns. How do you put that on screen in a relatable way that people don't look at it as a Superman? Right. You know, as Clark Kent. Mm-hmm. And this was done, it's written really well in the comic books. Mm-hmm.

[00:34:24] And it was written really well. He was written really well in this story, in this movie. And I really liked that they immediately showed Yelena reaching out to him. Like, I imagine, you know, it made me think of the beginning of Black Widow and the way that Natasha was treating Yelena when they were children, you know, taking care of her and wanting to protect her from the bad things. And I just saw Yelena.

[00:34:51] Sometimes that helps if you're struggling to help someone else who is struggling. And that helps you to feel better as well, to sort of pull each other out of this. And so it was nice to see her immediately reach out like that. And, you know. So it wasn't. I didn't think of it in that way. I thought of it as Natasha and Bruce for some reason. Mm-hmm. You know, like Natasha being the only one able to talk the monster down. Mm-hmm. Really. Yeah.

[00:35:20] That's what I got from. But she learned it from her sister. Yeah, from her sister. No, that's what I'm saying. I didn't make that connection until you just said it because the connection that I did make was Natasha and Bruce. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. No, that's a good parallel too. And it's, yeah. So Natasha lives on through Yelena and her kindness. Yeah. I loved the whole sequence with the asterisk-shaped climb.

[00:35:48] I mean, you got to have some really strong abs, glutes. Yeah. You know, everything got to be super toned. So I'm like, man, these people really, you know, they're going all the way to the top. They're going to do that crawl all the way to the top. I said, hell no. I thought it was hilarious when John says, don't worry, I got this. Everybody stand back. And you jump. I'm like, what are you doing? Yeah. You know how far down you are?

[00:36:17] You are not the hulks or, you know what I'm saying? It's not you. You know, you may have super soldier serum, but you're not jumping a mile or two, however deep they were into the earth crust or whatever. So it's just like, man. And then he came crashing down. I yelped. That was hilarious. Because as soon as he jumped, I'm like, dude. I'm like, no way. I'm like, no way you're going to make it. And then boom, he fell right back down. That was great. That was great. Yeah.

[00:36:46] And he's, well, I love the, like the bickering banter on the way up too. Like cucumber, cucumber, don't sneeze. And like bitching about ghosts, hard luck because of her suit. Because of her suit. It was crazy. I'm sorry. I need a suit to help me stay corporeal. And then at the, and then at the top, you know, we start, and I'm glad we got this arc for John Walker, where when we got to, when they got to the top, he left them in a way that they really, luckily the rest of them. Yeah.

[00:37:15] Well, luckily the rest of them were working together or they all would have fallen that mile or whatever to their death. Yep. I wonder at the end of the movie if he, he would have handled that differently at the end. I don't know what they would have done otherwise, to be honest, but. Uh, and then we see Bob from the beginning. He, I like that he is this like scary, you know, he's an antagonist more than a villain in this movie, I would say. Yeah. I don't think Bob is a villain. The void is a villain.

[00:37:45] The void is a villain. Bob is not a villain. But Bob is saying, I don't know if the void is part of me. So that is still a question in the MCU version. But we see at the end of this first section, he sacrifices himself. Do you think he knew that he was not going to get shot? Do you think he had an inkling of his powers already? No, no. That he was going to die? Not die, I mean a few shots? Yeah, I don't think he knew. I don't think he knew. Hmm.

[00:38:14] And then he, he said he was afraid of heights and then he flies up into the heights. And passes out. And passes out, yeah. Yeah, he's got to work on that. I guess he was doing better later. I loved Bucky in this. We get, as you know, on the road, we complete the rest of the team. We get Bucky who is, he lasted half a term as a congressman.

[00:38:40] And I'm wondering, like, we were just recently talking about Daredevil, the TV series, the new series. And I was thinking about, like, his quest to expose Valentina. It's like he tried to go about it the Matt Murdock way with being a congressman. And then he's like, you know, this is not getting me anywhere. I'm going to be, do the Daredevil version where he reverts to Winter Soldier mode and teams up with these people. Huh. I don't know.

[00:39:09] I don't know if I agree with that. Because I think Matt Murdock was just trying to run away from who he was. Hmm. He was trying to run away from Daredevil. He wasn't, you know, actively trying to. Okay. Well, it's not a one-to-one thing, but just saying that he figured out that working out outside the law was going to be more effective than going through the courts. I don't know. I think Matt is still. Well, I'm just talking about.

[00:39:36] I agree with Bucky with what you just said about Bucky. Yeah, I'm just talking about Bucky there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally agree with him coming to the realization, especially after leaving, you know, Sam in the lurch fighting the Red Hulk because he's, you know, out doing, I don't know, was he campaigning in that movie? I don't know.

[00:39:58] So whatever he was doing, he couldn't be bothered to show up to help his friend, realizing that maybe, you know, being a politician and trying to read these briefs is not the best use of my time. So, yeah, I think he did come to that realization. Mm-hmm. He had my favorite action scene.

[00:40:20] I love when he comes in and rescues the rest of them and he, like, is on the motorcycle and he pulls back the car and slams his arm into the road and it goes. And I'm doing a big exploding arms gesture. Now, Bucky was badass in this movie. Yeah, yeah. He was badass in this movie. And he and Alexi were funny together. It reminded me of What If Season 3. Yes, yes, yes. Immediately I felt that. Yeah. Right.

[00:40:50] It was great to see Red Guardian back and to have him, like, as the embarrassing dad role where, like, when he comes running up on the highway and Yelena's like, oh, God. But also, you know, how he's living, too, right? He's also someone who's battling his demons. Mm-hmm. Right? He's isolated. He's, you know, unkempt, you know, just.

[00:41:16] And really not in touch with anyone. Like, he's totally, you know, cut off from the world at this point, even though he has this limousine service. But it doesn't seem like he has much friends. It doesn't seem like he has anyone. Well, at least he lives in D.C. because he'll have, you know, that Baltimore is one block that way. Oh, yeah. But, yeah.

[00:41:43] But it was interesting to see when Yelena went to see him at the beginning of the movie and they're both, they haven't seen each other for a year at that point. And they're both, I feel like she blames him later for, I don't know. It feels like they were both avoiding each other because they were kind of trying to hide that they weren't doing well emotionally. Yeah, I think.

[00:42:10] Yeah, I think they were both off in their own corners. But I don't know if Alexi was in his own corner because of his own, like, struggles. Mm-hmm. I think he was off in his own corner specifically because he did not think Yelena wanted him around.

[00:42:40] Hmm. It's almost as if he was hiding. Hmm. Hiding himself from her. Not hiding, you know, what he's going through, but just physically hiding from her. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know? And I think Yelena is hiding what she's going through, which is a difference to me. Hmm. Okay. Okay.

[00:43:03] My second quibble with the film, first quibbles, Taskmaster, second quibble out of two, is that I don't believe that Val would have hired Alexi's limo. And I especially don't believe that she would have spoken that freely in front of him. Oh, yeah. No way. No way. No way. But it's okay. Conveniently get him in this room. Yeah, I'm cool with it. I'm cool with it. You know what I'm saying? When I saw him as the limo driver, I was like, yeah, no. Yeah.

[00:43:30] So she's too smart and too, you know, cultured to have that limo driving her around. You know, to be seen in that limo is not Val. No. No. It's going to be bachelor parties who want him as their driver. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What did you think about the, we'll ignore the asterix for now, but what did you think about the explanation of the name Thunderbolts? In this movie? The soccer team.

[00:43:59] I thought it was, yeah, it was fine. Okay. I mean, it didn't, it didn't move me one way or the other. Okay. You know, I wasn't expecting like, nah, we were going to name you the Thunderbolts. You know, I wasn't expecting anything like that either. So it was, it was fine. I thought it was perfectly cute. You know, that's what they went with. So because of that shared memory between Alexi and Yelena. So yeah, that was fine.

[00:44:28] I thought it was a fun running gag. And they're like arguing about who sponsored the Thunderbolts team. And somehow the entire group gets into it. Like, I don't know, we're calling ourselves after her childhood soccer team, whatever. Fine. I mean, yeah, I thought it was a fun running gag. Apparently they did want to film a flashback to the soccer team, but then they thought twice about it because in Black Widow, David Harbour, when he was stationed in America in the past,

[00:44:57] he had developed an American accent, which obviously he is not using now. So they're like, we don't want to remind people about that other accent. And we just want him to use the fun one. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I did wonder though. So they mentioned when they go to the, they have the court scenes where Val's being investigated. They mentioned the whole thing about, you know, the president turned into whose name is,

[00:45:26] that is Ross, but he was good. Yeah. I mean, so it's named after him, the group in the comics a little bit, right? Or what's the clarification for where it comes from in the comics of Thunderbolt's name? There are two, just, there are two. There's one from Norman Osborn and the Thaddeus Ross. Okay. But he, yeah, the Thaddeus Thunderbolt Ross was his nickname, but they haven't established that in the MCU, I guess? No, I don't think so.

[00:45:54] I don't remember anyone calling him Thunderbolt in the MCU. Okay. Because they, they make reference to him turning into a Hulk and that's the now played by Harrison Ford character. And he turned into Red Hulk indeed in the last movie, but yeah, no mention of the name Thunderbolt. So they just kind of loop that in. It's only temporarily, but like I said, I want to keep that name. It's different. It's cute.

[00:46:19] Um, but yeah, so we have Val is under investigation because of her ox group has been, well, they've, she's been doing this superhero experiment thing that ended up giving birth to the century. I mean, not literally giving birth, but you know what I mean? Um, and so, but Val, this is interesting. She's the director of the CIA, but she's like, oh no, no, no.

[00:46:42] I divested ox group interests, which sounds very like other certain political people in the real world. Like, oh no, I, I divested my interest. I just sit on the advisory board. So I'm just telling them what to do. So I laughed, I cackled, I cackled. I said, yeah, I said, yeah, look at them making real world connections.

[00:47:14] Oh man. I did wonder, we had Wendell Pierce in there playing Leonard Gary, and he is a more important character in the comics. He's a mutant. Um, the fact that they used him here, I wonder if there was more to his character before, or if they're planning to do more of his character in the future. I don't know. I don't know.

[00:47:37] I don't think, um, you know, I'm hesitant to, to figure it to, to say anything until I see fantastic four. Yeah, sure. Sure. That's right. Hmm. Um, so I will say, I will say what I, I will say. Um, but the least kept secret of this film was that, oh, Val has taken over Avengers tower, which is now calling the watchtower.

[00:48:06] And, uh, we see her that she plays, she decides to mom century. And that actually seems to work for a while, but he has this thing we didn't talk about yet where he touches people and he can go into like their worst memory. Deepest, darkest memories. Yeah. So we saw him with Yelena, um, this moment where she's being trained by the red room and she has to lure a friend outside to get shot, which is awful. And that's like a test she had passed for the red room.

[00:48:35] And we saw with, uh, John Walker, the, that he, you know, when his marriage was falling apart and he's not paying attention to his son and just in a complete depression. Um, and then we see with Valentina, a glimpse of her past. And so they're speaking Italian, which yeah, given her name, this makes sense. Right. And her, she sees her father, I presume killed by a German soldier.

[00:49:01] And so this makes me ask how old is Valentina? Cause that was looking very well too. Yeah. That's, that's going to be a thing for me. Yeah. What they do with that. Yeah. That's definite. That flashback was definitely, you know, Captain America, Steve Rogers before pre ice pre ice, you know? So. So. And she does not have an Italian accent now. So it's. She does not. Mm. Mm. So I.

[00:49:30] Who is Valentina? Yeah. Allegra. De Fontaine. Yeah. She's like, it's not Fontaine. It would be like if I just called you fence instead of defense. That was a great line from a horrible person. Yeah. But great line nonetheless. Nonetheless. I love how if you go back and watch the movie, you can see in the vault that they're,

[00:49:58] there's a whole bunch of paperwork where they're like workshopping looks for century. And this is how they decided to dye his hair blonde because he is blonde in the comics. So. Yeah. I thought that was handled well. Um, and, and I liked the characterization of century that he will fight them because this is at the moment what he thinks he's supposed to do because his new mommy figure is like, uh, you need to fight them because they, whatever. Um, but he doesn't want to kill them. So. Like he pulls,

[00:50:28] he throws red guardian out the window and pulls him back inside. And when, uh, Val's like, no, you have to kill them. He's like, no, I don't. I actually don't have to do anything. You tell me because I'm way more powerful than you. Yeah. You have to do what I tell you. No, you said, I have the powers of a God. What are you talking about? Why do I have to listen to you? Get out of here. Yeah. Which is the, you know,

[00:50:53] I am so happy that a character in these, in this world says something like that. You know what I mean? Like, no, there's no way you can tell me what to do. Do you know what I can do? Like, who are you to watch me around? Get the fuck out of here. Like, are you kidding me? Like, I was so happy somebody actually said that. Yeah. You know, like you can't tell me what to do.

[00:51:24] You know, I could in a second decimate this entire building and you, you are telling me what to do. Yeah. That this, that dismissive attitude. I, I kind of think that, you know, folks with superpowers might have. Yeah. Toward authority types. Right. Well, especially, yeah, because she's gotten him. She's gotten him to disengage,

[00:51:52] disengage and go against the people who are nice to him. And probably he hasn't had all that many people nice to him. And this group was. Yeah. Except John Walker, but that's, he still doesn't want to kill him. he's still part of the group. So, yeah. So I was so glad he said those words. Like, you can't tell me what to do. You can't make me do anything. Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, except, so she thinks she thought that she had the kill switch, which she did.

[00:52:22] She installed a kill switch in him and she even gets, we haven't talked yet about Mel, but Mel is her assistant. I'm presuming her full name is Melissa gold because that's a character thing. I did expect more of Mel's story. This, this movie, but I, like I said, I think it's, it's balanced and it would have been too much to fit in. And I'm presumably she'll be back, but it was interesting that even Mel was like, Oh no, Oh no, I have to hit the kill switch to save you. But yeah,

[00:52:51] that doesn't kill him. That just makes him angrier. Right. And that actually brings out. Mm hmm. The void. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Mel, she, that character was going to be played by IO at a beer. But again, I really liked Geraldine. This one, what's her last name? This one, not the, sorry. I'm anyway, I really liked the casting and performance. What did you think about Mel?

[00:53:20] I thought she was, you know, well played and very, this would nothing or something. True. Very true to the time. You know, I think is Bucky tells her something. I'm paraphrasing here. Like, you know, you have a choice to stay here and do this shit. Or do something else. You know, like, you know who you're working for. You know what this person is capable of doing.

[00:53:49] You know what they have done. You have a choice to either keep on this path or change. And, you know, given the times that we're in, that was, again, unexpected for me to hear in this movie. Mm-hmm. And I'm glad for it. I think it makes the movie stronger. And I think it makes Bucky a stronger character for seeing those things, for recognizing what he's seeing,

[00:54:20] because he is also someone who fought literal fascists, right? In World War II alongside Steve Rogers. So, he has a bit of history with this stuff. You know what I mean? So, for him to look at her and say, yeah, I'm a hundred and whatever years old, and you have a choice here. You have a choice. Yeah. I thought that was really powerful. Some people are talking about romantic vibes between them. Did you get that? No.

[00:54:51] I did, but I'm also like, I don't know, age, whatever. I guess it's fine, but yeah. Yeah. I mean, is Bucky really 109 years old? Well, yeah. I mean, how long was he frozen for? You know what I'm saying? And he does, how much of, well, I guess he remembers now all of his Winter Soldier stuff, does he? Yeah. I think he remembers all of it. He remembers all of it. But he was in and out of suspended animation. You know,

[00:55:19] they kept him on ice for years at a time. Is he really 109? Okay, fair. I mean, I don't hate it. And I thought Mel, you know, was true to form. Like, how many people who are young want the proximity to power? And what that means. Like, they're willing to do the things, the sort of things that maybe in 20 years

[00:55:47] they'll look back on and say to themselves, how did I do that? Mm-hmm. If they, you know, are good moral, just people. Mm-hmm. Or, she turns into another Valentina. But right now, I think she's at a crossroads. Yeah. And I think the film portrayed that well for her. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that actually the, you know, a movie has to have a low point

[00:56:16] before it can reach the crescendo of the climax. And I think that the low point actually comes right after this for the team. And I'm glad, I mean, obviously we have the void stuff we'll talk about in a sec. But before that, we get a couple emotional beats with the team where they are at their lowest as teamwork. And Yelena, the one who was the one reaching out to people, is now lashing out at everyone. The worst and funniest is like, she says something snarky to everyone.

[00:56:44] And then John Walker says, is it my turn? And she said, no, you know, you're a piece of trash walker. Your family does too. And he's like, Jesus. That's the worst. That was a little harsh. But I can't say I disagree. I'm just saying. A little harsh. But, you know, call a spain a spain. Yeah. This is what it is. But then they follow it up with, she has that emotional talk with her dad. And if she didn't have him there to, you know,

[00:57:13] just let it out and feel that like, I love you, even though you're in this bad moment where you feel so low. I don't think she could have done what she did next without that kind of pep talk of sorts from Alexi. No, no, no, no. She definitely needed to hear that. She definitely needed to hear that. They needed to have that, that brief moment of connection, of recognized pain, of apology, right? Of forgiveness,

[00:57:42] no matter how brief, you know, couple of minutes at most, right? But they needed it. And she needed it in order to do what she did. You're absolutely right. Yeah. Wow. All right. Let's take one more quick break here. When we get back, we're going to get into the visual and emotional climax of the movie.

[00:58:21] All right. Time to go into the void. Now we have century in full void form. And that way, how cool was that with, it was making me think also of sinners with, you know, where he's all blacked out and just the glowing eyes. That was so dope. Yeah. That was so dope. The visual of that is fucking haunting. Mm-hmm. How, yeah,

[00:58:50] I'm amazed that they were able to pull that off. Yeah. Because that look, it's unlike anything that we've kind of seen before, right? And so unique to this character that it's immediately like a showstop. Yeah. Yeah. And, and he says, are you tired of fighting here? Let me help you.

[00:59:18] So he's still approaching it from a place of empathy where he thinks he's helping people by like, I'll end your pain and just the via the foop, foop, the visual effect of people just turning into flattening in the shadows. Yeah. Oh my gosh. That was so, Ooh, you know, it's just like Thanos snapping in his own dust. You know what I mean? And now you have this void, just like licking your direction and poof.

[00:59:48] Yeah. Like a shadow on the ground. Like, holy shit. Yeah. It was so well executed. And, and the whole, I love that whole action sequence where each of the Thunderbolts got their moment to do something. Yeah. So, and the crowd saw them and, and Val saw the crowd seeing them where she wanted to kill them. She's like, Oh, maybe they, maybe they are marketable. Oh, ultimate opportunist. That woman is. Yeah. But, but then that climaxes with red guardian saves this little girl.

[01:00:18] And he's like, you're safe now. And just then she's gone. Yeah. She's gone. Yeah. I said, damn, what's going on? You're taking the kids too. That's the kids. That, I mean, that hits hard. That's like a punch. You're taking the kids out too. Oh man. We didn't even see that when Thanos did the snap. You know what I'm saying? Are you taking the kids out? I said, Oh no. I mean, half the kids in the universe must have disappeared too. I said,

[01:00:48] but we didn't see it, Alicia. No, I know. I know. It was like, this was right in our face. Like, poof, kid is gone. I'm like, Oh no. Who is the kid? This is a very grown up movie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't say this in the, I forgot to say this when I was doing the spoiler free review, but, um, I said when this film came out that, um, I think for me, from the perspective of telling an emotional,

[01:01:17] engrossing story about the humanity of superheroes in that regard, it's the best, uh, Marvel film since Logan, in my opinion. I have to think about that. I'm not going to say that you're wrong. I'm not going to say that you're wrong at all. I have to give that some thought. I'll write in. Okay. Um, and yeah, this is, you know,

[01:01:45] where I was saying that Yelena's talk with her, with her dad kind of pumps her up and she's like, you know what? I needed my dad to pull me out of that downward spiral where I was insulting everyone who was trying to help me. And I think Bob needs that right now. And she's like, you know what? Sometimes people need you to just step into the darkness with them. Sometimes people need you to be present, present in their, in their pain. You know, you may not offer them a solution, but just by being there,

[01:02:16] just by extending that hand and for them, knowing that they're not alone, can change someone. Absolutely. Can cause someone to see the help that they need. Right. Yeah. But it does, as in this movie, it does often involve confronting your own darkness as well to help them. And I think this is why we see in the real world, people struggling often to be there for people who are at a low point because they,

[01:02:45] they don't want to be pulled down to that low point as they feel it. But actually you can, as this movie shows you, you, you, by reaching toward each other in the depths, you can pull each other up. Right. Um, we got, we got his backstory. We didn't talk much about his backstory, but he was, um, a meth addict. And he, at one point he was, uh, spinning signs, dresses, a chicken. So we got a glimpse of that, but I have a question. Okay.

[01:03:14] This is not an official quibble, but just, um, how did a meth addict end up in Malaysia looking for drugs? Like that is ambitious. I mean, you know, not to stereotype. There's a way. Yeah. Well, there's a way. And we don't know what Bob's, you know, upbringing is. Hmm. Maybe he had some, we got a glimpse. Yeah. We got a glimpse. It didn't look like he came from money, but, um, and I get to, you know, it didn't look like he came from poverty either.

[01:03:44] No. Yeah. I mean, I just think to go that far looking for drugs is, I don't know. Is that like necessarily meth is something that you, you make from supermarket ingredients usually. So I don't know. Just because you're, you're on meth doesn't mean that's the only thing you crave. Yeah. That's what he said though, that he was there looking for drugs. Maybe we don't, he lied. Right. So maybe we shouldn't necessarily believe that. Maybe he was there looking for drugs.

[01:04:14] Hmm. You know, it's, that's the, that's the thing. I mean, I won't speak on addiction because I, I've not been addicted. Right. So I can't speak to, to that, but people do things when they are addicted and they find ways. But why Malaysia? I don't know. That's a good question. Hmm.

[01:04:43] Why do you run to the other side of the world? Yeah. I think that could be more having to deal with it. That's just far away. Yeah. How do you get away from the pain that you're, that, you know, that you're experiencing? Mm hmm. And then once you find yourself on the other side of the world, the pain is still there. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And you got to deal with it. Mm hmm. And the only way that you know how to deal with it is to find some more drugs. Yeah.

[01:05:14] So, I mean, first of all, I love the, the construction of this whole thing. Very, uh, eternal sunshine of the spotless mind with the way the rooms flow into each other of these people's minds and, and the trippy passing through it that they have to do. Um, I think it's interesting. So you brought up earlier how in the comics, it's a cosmic entity who latches onto Bob in this version so far, we don't know, you know, we,

[01:05:43] we don't know what they're going to say about it later, but at this point, Bob is not sure. He says the void might actually be a part of me and I've always been a part of him. And part of me wouldn't mind if they just kept that as, you know, what, what happened with this drug trial that it just kind of spun off this, uh, this dark side of him into a literal entity, because I find that more interesting that it's coming from within rather than something that infected him from space.

[01:06:13] I mean, yeah, I think that would be, I think keeping it this way or maybe even keeping it ambiguous. Right. I'm, I'm cool with either, either, or I don't think it has to be something else. Anything more than just manifestation of Bob's own, you know, grief, depression. I don't think it has to be something more than that. Yeah.

[01:06:43] Yeah. And then it basically ends with a giant hug and some people make fun of that, but actually I found that really powerful. Yeah, absolutely, man. I mean, again, just, you know, just personal life experience, you know, I think people are uncomfortable with that. Right. Especially in,

[01:07:10] in certain masculine ways. Right. Right. And there are times I've never felt safer than in being in conjunction with my friends, consoling me. Mm. Mm. Mm. In that way. Those are, those are things that I remember still to this day. My father passing,

[01:07:41] you know, just friends who've, who passed. And those of us left behind trying to find a way out, embracing each other in that way. Mm. Mm. It's powerful. Yeah. Yeah. And I think also from this particular group of characters that they are, their way of dealing with everything that they've been taught is fight it, fight it down and beat it.

[01:08:08] And so I think there is something extremely strong about them coming to this point where they realize, um, you don't have to fight. Sometimes fighting is not the answer. Right. Sometimes just being present and accepting someone and, and just, yeah, saying, I'm here for you. Sometimes that fixes things a lot better than, uh, fighting can make things worse. If they fought him there, then. And also. Go ahead. Everyone would die. No,

[01:08:38] I say if they fought him there, everyone would die. Right. And also, you know, this is a group of characters who, you know, we've seen only no isolation. Mm. Mm. Like ghosts can't be touched. Right. You, you know, Yelena's running from everything. Right. John is John. There's not many people who get close to him, you know,

[01:09:06] because of all the barriers that he puts up in, in front. Hiding behind that helmet. Right. Alexi is totally alone. Mm. Mm. Mm. So we have a group here who have only known isolation and for them to come together in that moment, to be together, you know, Mm. Mm. That's powerful. Mm. And I'm sorry if people don't understand that. And maybe I'm,

[01:09:35] I'm happy for people who don't understand that because they haven't had to go through it. Yeah. And needing that. Mm. Mm. So, you know, I can only hope that they don't have to need that. Yeah. What's the line from Andor? How nice for you. No. Um, yeah, no, I, I think that it was very powerful how it did. And of course we get our happy ending. You know, we get all the unvoided people return, except, you know,

[01:10:04] we saw some helicopters and stuff go down and those people are definitely dead. Oh yeah. They're gone. They're gone. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry for them, but the little girl's back. So we're all okay. Yeah. I'm not sorry for them. Hmm. For the people. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And, and then we get, uh, basically would they all, they're like, Oh, we're going to go after Valentina. They're arguing about that. And they stepped forward to confront her. And then suddenly they're on a stage and it's a press conference. And she's like, guess what?

[01:10:34] That asterisk is a new title. It's the new Avengers. She's good. She's good. I just shook my head. I'm like, Oh, she's good. She's fucking devious. She's good. She's good. Yeah. What would you say before we get into, you know, the, the credits, what would you say is the message of the film? The message of this film is, wow, that's deep.

[01:11:05] What's the message of this film? Like it's a deep film. Oh man. That's, uh, that's, I think there's a few. Let me think you speak. I think there's a few. One of them I would say is that, you know, don't wait for someone to tell you you're a hero or give you permission to be a hero. Just do the good things and people will see it. We saw, we saw that with them. Um, um, I think, yeah,

[01:11:34] obviously what we've been talking about, about how maybe, you know, we always say hurt people, hurt people, but maybe hurt people can help other hurt people. And if we, I love to see a movie like this modeling that behavior. I think, um, it's not that hurt people can help other hurt people. It's that people can help people. Sure.

[01:12:02] And I think that's what I'm going to take away from, especially the final moment where they embrace Bob is that, you know, sometimes you have to extend the hand to someone else because they need you to. And if you can recognize that that person needs you to, then you probably should do it.

[01:12:33] And I'm left with that thought that even John Walker deserves that hand, a character that I don't like, but I can understand why he needs that hug. Who do you dislike more him or peacemaker? Oh God, peacemaker. Okay. Oh, this is easy. Although you like, uh, the peacemaker show. Oh,

[01:13:03] I love the show. Yeah. You know, I'm ready. I'm ready for the show. I love the show. But, um, yeah, he's a terrible character. He's a terrible person, not a terrible character. He's a terrible person. Right. He's a great speaker. Interesting character. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I get, I get why they made the film in the way that they made this film to show that we can be there for each other.

[01:13:27] You can be there for someone because that's the easiest thing that you can do. It's not about money. It's not about, you know, gifts. It's not about, you know, any of the things that you think about when you say, all right, I need to cheer somebody up. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like you don't need to cheer them up. You just need to be there for them. You just need to be there. And I think that's what I take from this film. Yeah.

[01:13:57] Yeah. I mean, I think that I am now probably rooting for this team the most out of the teams that we've seen. And of course, that's a little unfair to compare because we haven't really seen the other teams fully form. But okay, that gets us into, let's talk about the credits. So first we get these meta news articles at the beginning of the credits where people are like, not my Avengers and all that stuff.

[01:14:23] Just want to point out that the guinea pig appears on the bow of the boat in that Washington painting spoof. And we also have John Walker has now traded in the helmet that Ghost was making fun of in the film for a beret. But he still has the bent shield. I love that he still has the bent shield. Yeah. You know, it's a reminder. I wonder if he's going to get a new one. It's a reminder. I love that he's still carrying it around. Yeah.

[01:14:51] And then we get that first credit scene with Alexi in the grocery store where he just wants the woman to notice him on the Wheaties box. That was perfect. I thought this is the fun. But that takes us to the second credit scene. 14 months later, this is the really meaty credit scene. We find out there is a space crisis. And we know this was actually directed. The scene was directed by the Russo brothers and filmed on the Doomsday set or co-directed by them.

[01:15:21] I wonder if the space crisis. Okay. Well, we see a Fantastic Four rocket show up. So that's like, but will it also connect to the Marvel's credit scene? Is it space crisis is probably incursions, right? I think it's incursions. I think it's incursions. I think it's the Fantastic Four, obviously in the ship. I don't think, I think it's probably the ship at the end of my speculation of the movie. Yes.

[01:15:51] Because from what we've seen in the trailers of the movie, of the Fantastic Four movie, the ship and the trailers and the ship and these credits are different. So I will say that we're seeing what them coming to this universe at the end of their own movie, the Fantastic Four. I got hyped.

[01:16:20] I'm hyped. I'm hyped. I think there's several things happening here. You know, Fantastic Four, the thing with, you know, Sam and Bucky. It's going to come to a head. If you've listened to podcasts, you guys already know. I am not a fan of Sam Wilson in the MCU. I'm a huge fan of Sam Wilson, Captain America in the comic books. I think the MCU version in the comic book versions are very different.

[01:16:51] And how they view the world and how they interact with the world being black captains, Americas, wearing the star spangled and stripes, whatever, wearing the flag of the United States as a uniform. They come from two very different viewpoints.

[01:17:10] So I am expecting to see Bucky and Sam come to some sort of major disagreement about the Thunderbolts. Because it can be argued that these are villains. These are not good people. They hurt people, blah, blah, blah. And I can see Sam Wilson, MCU,

[01:17:39] saying they should not be viewed as superheroes. They should be on the raft, which is the superhuman jail. Yeah. Where we saw Red Hulk is there now. Yes. And some others. Yeah. Yes. And Bucky's not going to go for that. Mm-mm. No. No. And it's also, it is so weird. So, okay. Bucky, apparently, so they're called the New Avengers. And Sam is like, no, because at the end of Captain America, he said, I'm going to start my New Avengers team. And by the way,

[01:18:09] I just have to say, I'm sure comic book Sam Wilson would never turn in Isaiah back to the police. Oh, we already, we already know that. We already know that. You don't got to say that. You know what I'm saying? Let me just get this on my chest, Alicia. Let me just say this. Let me just say, MCU, Captain America, Sam Wilson is the feds. You can't trust the man. You can't trust him. You know what I mean? You can't trust him. You know, that's it.

[01:18:37] You cannot trust this Sam Wilson. That's all I'm saying. Well, no, but that really, it does inform everything that I think about him at this point in time. And I'm sure that that was like some, you know, political washing going back. And I just, but it just, I can't, when I hear Bucky who Bucky showed up in that movie to give him a little advice. And as you said, Bucky did not stick around to help him. So, okay. Um,

[01:19:06] but the fact that like, they're having some copyright arguments and he said, the copyright chat with Sam did not go well. So these two have like broken up friendship, which I guess it was always tenuous to begin with, but yeah, it's, uh, I am immediately feeling like I'm on Bucky's side over Sam's, not even knowing the conversation. I don't even know what Sam's side is and I'm not on his side. You know what I'm saying? Give me the Avengers with the Z. Give me that. Give me that.

[01:19:36] You know what I'm saying? Give me that. I don't want Sam Wilson's Avengers. I want the Avengers with the Z. That's what I want. You know what I mean? Uh, I love that. I love that line where, um, red guardians, like, why do we need a jet? Why can't, uh, Bob just be century and we can ride him in space. And Yelena's like, this is why we are the Avengers with the Z. John's like, what do you think we're all going to like get on his back?

[01:20:06] How are you picturing this guy? Oh, but I also, I love the fact the way they handled Bob's character where he has a happy ending for this film, but he does. Yeah. But he can, he's not just, it's not just like superhero unlocked because he can't become century without also being the void. At least. Yeah. That's what he fears. So this is a way like with, they had this problem with, um, with captain Marvel where she's just so OP.

[01:20:35] They just have to constantly send her out into space all the time to explain why, she's not there to solve instantly every problem. Right. And he's also such an OP character, but now they have a really good reason why he can't just unleash that whenever he wants. Right. So he's sitting there like a dormant nuke waiting probably to explode in a future movie, which could be great and probably will be terrible at the same time. I think it's going to be terrible. That's just me personally.

[01:21:03] I don't think it's going to be good because I think, uh, yeah, it's all speculation, but doom is, doom is doom. Mm. And if doom sees Bob just sitting around there knowing that Bob has the void and the power of a billion, billion exploding suns, then he's going to use that. Mm. Mm. And we already know where doom is,

[01:21:33] where doom is headed. Right. Right. Yeah. I'm I, this has got me this credit scene alone. I mean, first of all, uh, the, just the quality of the movie has me excited for the big, uh, for what comes in the MCU and the fact that people are lavishing praise on this film and the fact that it's doing pretty well in the box office. Um, I hope it overtakes Captain America just, just to show, I just want them to see like, you know what movies with thoughtful writing, that's the way to go. It can work. They work. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[01:22:03] They work financially too. Yeah. Um, but it has me excited. This credit scene has me excited for the fantastic four with that tease. So, okay. We know that they're going to show up on earth, um, in 14 months. Uh, it has me excited for doomsday for all the reasons that you're saying and secret wars. And obviously we're going to get this new Avengers with a versus Sam Wilson's Avengers. Yeah. I, it's got me excited for the future. Yeah.

[01:22:33] Do you have any final thoughts about the movie? No, just some, every time, I'm glad that we talked about it. Um, it deserves to be talked about, deserves to be seen. And, um, yeah, kudos to the entire, um, production because this was a really good movie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, our next Marvel chatter on the public feed is probably going to be Ironheart, which begins. Oh, I'm excited. Yeah. I'm excited too. Uh,

[01:23:02] we don't really know the release schedule. It seems like there's going to be a three episode drop up front, but there's only six episodes. So I don't know if they're going to do the other three weekly or just drop all those three. And then I kind of hope it's weekly. Yeah. I don't want two weeks of three. Mm hmm. I hope it's weekly. Yeah. That was, that was enough with Andor. Don't, yeah. Um, and then shortly on the tail of that, or yeah, it will be fantastic for that movie. It comes out July 25th.

[01:23:32] Um, and yeah, we're hopefully now that things are winding down in the spring, we can do some of those subscriber extras we've been talking about. I'm still going to, I'm going to, once we schedule, have you watched Craven? I'm going to watch it. We schedule it. We schedule first. And then that gives me the motivation to watch this movie that I am admittedly. We'll see where I rank it, but I am dragging my feet to hell to watch that movie. Okay. Okay. Okay. You know what part of my problem is with Craven?

[01:24:01] Is it like, if I were a superhero, I would be reverse Craven. Like I would be having all the animals on my side to hunt people like Craven. I hear you. I hear you. Watch the movie. Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. I'll watch the movie. And I'm going to rewatch. I'm going to rewatch Morbius. Just so we can rank. Just so we can rank. Just watch the movie. All right. But yeah, things, things are definitely, whew, thankfully slowing down after that spring crush. Yeah. And DCU,

[01:24:31] we don't forget you either. Yeah. Superman with the, the new trailer just came out. Man. When I say I'm excited, I know we're on the MCU. Right now. Well, it's Carman's versus. I know. I know, but we told my MCU, but Lordy Lord, I think Superman is my most anticipated movie.

[01:24:57] And it's the movie that absolutely has the most riding on it. Mm-hmm. More so than Fantastic Four. Yeah. Way more so than Fantastic Four. Mm-hmm. There's a lot of pressure for this movie to be really damn good. Everything I've seen so far. Yes. It surprises me in a new way. Yes. Yes. I'm excited. I'm excited for it.

[01:25:27] July 10th is when that drops. So right before Fantastic Four. And then in August is when we get Peacemaker season two. And those trailers have me excited too, because it looks like there's going to be some. Connectivity. Yes. With the first season and explaining this transition from the DCEU to the DCU, perhaps with these characters. So we have eight episodes starting August 21st. Um,

[01:25:55] and I think we're going to do full coverage for this. Yeah, we should. Mm-hmm. So if you have any thoughts about Thunderbolts or about anything else from Marvel, uh, please send it to MCU at the lorehounds.com. And we'll talk about that feedback on a future podcast. And you can send DCU thoughts as well, of course. And, um, we have, we have Marvel forum and we have a DCU forum set up under franchises on the discord.

[01:26:23] You'll find that link tree in the show notes. Um, also check out our weekly, uh, the last of us is almost wrapping up. Doctor who is almost wrapping up the season twos for both just started murder bots and we're just finishing up. And, or that was an all hands on deck situation. What, what, yeah. What were your thoughts? It was great to hear you, uh, you and I were supposed to be paired together in Andor, but then the schedule got all. Then everything got hokey. Um, Cal was great.

[01:26:54] It's probably, yeah, it's, it's my, it's my favorite star Wars. Okay. I understand that. It's my favorite star. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's an extraordinarily high quality show and yeah, hard look at fascism, but in a galaxy far, far away. Wow. Um, yeah. So we check out our sinners episode. That was,

[01:27:21] I'm still getting nice compliments from people on that. Uh, that's so amazing to hear. That's great. Yeah. I really loved hearing you're in Anthony's perspectives and, and that was a lot of fun. Yeah. A lot of deep conversation. The, both these movies, uh, Thunderbolts and sinners really inspire deep conversation. So glad to talk about that. Um, supercast on Patreon, you get ad free access to all this stuff plus all the bonus content for and, or, and all the other shows that have season passes plus the extra extras,

[01:27:51] uh, like 11 Z's, uh, movie club every month. And to check out the link in the show notes for nevermind the music, uh, where music meets psychology, radioactive ramblings. They're doing, um, they're doing fallout lore. Now rings and rituals, properly. Howard movie reviews will shift dust moving into Dune, the star Wars canon timeline, podcast. Uh, those last two are with me and all right. You ready for some thank yous? Okay. Yes. All right.

[01:28:21] So I went with an honor. I went with synth wave cause that felt like the music for this. I no idea what's coming, but, uh, in honor of century, I went with Apollo. So here we go. All right. This is the hopeful aftermath of the void, you know, after they've come out of the void. Uh, uh, thank you to our discord server boosters, Aaron K. Tiller, the thriller, dork of the ninjas, do 71, Athena, Adjalea, Tina, let's do Nancy M ghost of partition and radioactive Richard.

[01:28:51] Thank you to everyone who's listening. Please do share this with other thunderbolts fans and leave a nice review. If you're up for it, wherever you're listening, that helps a whole lot. Um, thank you to, especially our subscribers. Most of all, our highest tier, the lore masters, some Martian, Michael G, Michelle E, Brian P, SC, Peter, O H, Adam S, Nancy M, Dove 71, Brian, 80, 63, Frederick H, Sarah L, Garrett C, Matthew M, Sarah M, Andre B, Kwong Yu, Dead Eye,

[01:29:20] Jedi Bob, Nathan T, Alex V, Sub Zero, Aaron K, Dally V, Mothership 61, Narls, Kathy W, Lestu, Jeffrey B, Elisa U, Neil F, Ben B, Scott F, Steven N, Julia F, Kali S, Ilmariel, and forward slash Tim, and always last, Adrian. Right. Final thoughts, Sean? Yeah. Feige, I've been giving you a break. I've been giving you some time.

[01:29:51] Let's go. You see what sinners did. You know, the vibes. Recast T'Challa. The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at the lorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and add free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds.

[01:30:17] Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Just the Thunderbolts in the comics. Okay. I wanted just to clear that up really quickly. Not named after, you know, Thaddeus Ross. Okay. So, the original first iteration of the Thunderbolts was, they were formed by Baron Zemo. They were actually, I don't know, villains.

[01:30:47] Mm-hmm. Okay. who became some sort of heroes when the Avengers and other superheroes were presumed dead. So, there's been, there have been, there have been many iterations of the Thunderbolts throughout the Marvel comics. So, this is just in line with that thought process. Mm-hmm. Right? So, again, just,

[01:31:17] it's different from the first ones. Mm-hmm. Because the first ones, they were villains. Right, right, right. They weren't anti-heroes. Mm-hmm. Right? They weren't anti-heroes. They weren't, they were just bad guys who got together. And, because of circumstances, were looked at as heroes later on. Mm-hmm. And then the teams kept changing, and it kept changing with different, you have, Red Hulk has Thunderbolts, Luke Cage in the Thunderbolts. You have, um,

[01:31:46] Norman Osborn, Thunderbolts. So, you have a whole lot of different Thunderbolts, teams that have a whole lot of different, a set of different rosters. Okay. Okay. I like this iteration. You know, I love a team of lovable anti-heroes, or, and that's the thing that- people I can root for to change. Yeah. And I really like that theme, because, you know, when Avengers first came out, it was just like, it's the same thing, it was the same thing for me, because, mm-hmm. the Avengers in comic books,

[01:32:16] has a changing roster. You know, so I've never had this thought that, only these five people, can be Avengers, you know, in the MCU. I never believed that. Right? Um, so, I'm looking, I'm very much looking forward to having a new roster, of Avengers, because, in the comics, the, the Avengers roster is always changing. The X-Men's roster always changes, you know? Um, so, that they're doing that,

[01:32:45] in the films, to give different heroes, um, some shine. I think that's really, different characters, I should say, some shine. I think that's really good. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. Thank you.