Silo: S2-e2 – "Order" must be maintained

[00:00:26] Welcome back to Wool-Shift-Dust. I'm Alicia and I'm not here alone. Hi, Luke.

[00:00:31] Luke Svoboda- Hi, Alicia.

[00:00:33] We are back to tackle episode two of season two of Silo titled Order,

[00:00:39] which Luke will be happy to know was full of surprises for me as well.

[00:00:43] Luke Svoboda- Yeah, it's always nice when you as the book reader are taken by surprise as well.

[00:00:48] So Luke, can you remind people or fill in new listeners? What is our book spoiler policy?

[00:00:53] Luke Svoboda- So Alicia has read all the books that go to make up the series Silo. I have read none of them.

[00:01:03] So we will be talking about what's happened in previous episodes. We will be talking about

[00:01:09] what happened last season, but Alicia will protect my book innocence by giving no spoilers from the

[00:01:16] books ahead of where we've already gotten to. So once again, I remain the fount of all ignorance.

[00:01:22] Luke Svoboda- Right. So I can bring up things from the books that have already

[00:01:26] played out on screen in this episode. It's merely going to be to say, by the way,

[00:01:30] that's from the book. I can't tell you more yet. Um,

[00:01:34] Luke Svoboda- Teasing, teasing, teasing, teasing. Um, but, uh, there is an extra spoiler cast that's

[00:01:42] going out a couple of days after this, um, where Abby and I, Abby's also read the books. We will be

[00:01:48] talking about, um, a specific topic, uh, related to this episode, which I'll bring up more as we go

[00:01:55] through. I bet it's the Pez Dispenser. I bet you any money it's the Pez Dispenser.

[00:02:00] Luke Svoboda- I mean, there is like half a book dedicated to that. No,

[00:02:03] the Pez Dispenser is not in the book. Um, but I think we will actually talk about it for another reason.

[00:02:11] Um, so yeah, so we are recording this ahead of time, by the way, because we have screeners this

[00:02:16] season. So that's why you're able to get this on the day that the episode drops. Um, we will be

[00:02:22] for that reason, recording separate episodes for community feedback. We had a really great time

[00:02:27] last season interacting with, uh, everyone in the community with everyone's thoughts and theories.

[00:02:32] So we still definitely encourage you to send them in. Uh, you can send them to woolshiftuspodcast

[00:02:38] at gmail.com and you can talk to us on discord and check us out, um, get in touch with us on

[00:02:43] social media. All those links are in the show notes. Um, but just to assure people we are not

[00:02:49] watching ahead of the episode that we're talking about for these episodes. So we've only seen right

[00:02:55] now, Luke and I have only seen the first two episodes of the new season. Uh, so you can trust

[00:02:59] all of our speculation is genuine. I've got to say after watching this episode, it was really hard to

[00:03:06] fight the temptation to watch. I know, I know. Um, so, and I think we also have to throw out that

[00:03:15] there are, I, I know that these are going to be officially said on screen very soon. I don't know

[00:03:22] if you noticed the episode title for next week. Um, but there are a couple pieces of lore that were

[00:03:28] revealed at comic con, um, that are not spoilery. They're just the labels for things that make it

[00:03:34] easier for us to talk about them. So we are going to, I'm going to reveal that now and we will be

[00:03:38] referring to these as we talk. And that is the fact we know that there are multiple silos. We know

[00:03:43] that from last season, um, they are numbered and the number for the silo in which this week's

[00:03:49] action takes place is 18. And we know that because we saw that on the hard drive last season. And we

[00:03:54] saw that on Bernard's key fob. Um, and yes, we've been seeing that number around the silo that we saw

[00:04:02] Juliet enter last week next to it is silo 17. So it's going to be revealed on screen soon. We're

[00:04:08] just going to say that now because it makes us easier to talk about it. And then also we're going

[00:04:12] to be referring to the man that Juliet met last week as solo. Uh, anything dad?

[00:04:19] No, uh, let's, let's crack home with it.

[00:04:22] All right. So I was thinking by the way, before we get into the episode itself, last week,

[00:04:27] we were questioning why the rebellions in these silos always seem to come from the down deep.

[00:04:32] But I was thinking about it, um, this week and do rebellions actually ever started the top

[00:04:39] because that wouldn't be a rebellion then they pretty much.

[00:04:42] That wouldn't be a rebel. That wouldn't be a rebellion. That would, that would be a cut.

[00:04:45] That would be a coup. Yeah. Which, which arguably is what Bernard has pulled off.

[00:04:51] Uh, well, but he's the secret head of the silo anyway. So yeah, but now he's the public facing

[00:04:57] head of the silo. Yeah. Is that a coup? Cause he's like just saying, he's just coming out

[00:05:02] of the closet as being in charge.

[00:05:04] Well, I don't see anybody in a massive rush to organize a mayoral election.

[00:05:09] So until there is one, I'm calling it a coup.

[00:05:12] Oh, I don't know. But yeah, I mean, it, I guess the fact that they refer to them as rebellions,

[00:05:19] they never start in the mids. They never start with the middle class rebellions, do they?

[00:05:23] Um, well, generally speaking, rebellions don't start with people who are very poor because

[00:05:30] they're too busy, um, trying to survive. What generally happens is that successful rebellions

[00:05:37] tend to start when people's circumstances improve a little bit and they want to see them continue

[00:05:44] to improve and they don't see a way that they can continue to improve with the current system.

[00:05:52] Interesting. I can't wait for the transcript to be released by the way, so that I can count how

[00:05:57] many times they said the mines this episode. Did you notice that? The mines should have sent

[00:06:02] them to the mines, sent them all to the mines.

[00:06:04] Also, are you okay, Alicia? Cause there was no Lucas.

[00:06:07] I know.

[00:06:07] There was no George.

[00:06:09] Why are they keeping him from me? I mean, George, all right. So, um, by the way, I also

[00:06:14] desperately need Patrick and Danny back. Um, but so I have to shout outs in our trailer breakdown

[00:06:22] episode, you were teasing me saying, I kept bringing up George and why do I want George

[00:06:25] back and all that? And so, um, Jeremy on discord, he said, I finally just listened to your trailer

[00:06:33] episode and well, I'm sorry, but I had to, this is more for Luke really laughing.

[00:06:39] Oh yeah, that was awesome.

[00:06:40] I have, he says, I have a medical condition called overdraw itis. If I find something funny,

[00:06:46] I've seen slash heard, I have to draw it or I can't get it out of my head. And so he get

[00:06:51] a drawing that's an excellent drawing of, um, a woman's arm opening a door that says creak

[00:06:58] and inside George is sitting on a couch, holding a drink in one hand and the ducky Pez dispenser

[00:07:05] and the other. And it says, well, hello there, Alicia. What brings a girl like you to a silo

[00:07:11] like this?

[00:07:13] It's a brilliant draw. It's a brilliant draw.

[00:07:16] It's really well done.

[00:07:17] Yeah.

[00:07:17] It's really well done.

[00:07:19] So thank you, Jeremy.

[00:07:23] Oh yeah. Oh, so just about Lucas. Um, yeah, I do wonder, I'm going to talk about this more

[00:07:29] with Abby, but I do wonder if they have, maybe they really did send them to the mines and that's

[00:07:34] like how we're going to see the mines, but then show episode three, better feature the mines

[00:07:38] and Lucas and Patrick and Danny, like having some stupid conversation.

[00:07:43] Well, like you say that, like you said that they keep mentioning the mines enough that we

[00:07:47] need to see them at some point.

[00:07:49] Right.

[00:07:50] Yeah.

[00:07:50] So many times this week. All right. Well, let's get into the episode itself.

[00:07:54] Your regularly scheduled breakdown will begin in three, two, one.

[00:08:02] All right. So this week's episode is season two, episode two, order. And that episode title,

[00:08:09] it's about keeping order, you know, not letting things get out of control, of course, but it's

[00:08:14] also about a new book that we get a glimpse of that we'll talk about a bit more. Um, so this

[00:08:19] episode first aired Friday, November 22nd, 2024, and it was written by Fred Golan, who is

[00:08:26] a frequent collaborator with the showrunner Graham Yost. And the director was again, Michael

[00:08:31] dinner, who also directed episode one. Luke, what were your overall thoughts in the episode?

[00:08:36] I really liked this episode. I thought it covered a lot of ground. I thought it really developed

[00:08:42] particularly Bernard as a character and judge Meadows for that matter. You get to see a lot

[00:08:49] more of who judge Meadows is and what's motivating her. And you find out the relationship between

[00:08:57] Bernard and judge Meadows, which, which when it was revealed, I went, that makes sense. You know,

[00:09:04] it was like, huh, but it wasn't something, it was certainly not something I was expecting.

[00:09:08] Um, I do have one major gripe with this episode in that Walker's agoraphobia seems to have completely

[00:09:19] disappeared as required by the plots. Um, you know, she's wondering about all over the place

[00:09:25] and she's taken all over the place seemingly without any consequence. And I think that is,

[00:09:32] you know, just to get it out of the way. I don't like it when shows have characters who have illnesses,

[00:09:41] disabilities, mental health conditions that sort of come and go and fade in and out as the plot requires

[00:09:46] them to, because that's just not how real life works. Yeah. So that was my one major gripe with the

[00:09:54] episode. Yeah, no, I share that gripe. Um, and I have to say her agoraphobia does come from the books

[00:10:01] and where it's a male character, but it doesn't matter. Same, same character in every other way.

[00:10:05] Um, so Walker in the books, you know, he is, he does leave for similar reasons basically to,

[00:10:15] it's actually once it's not to, um, Walker communicates with supply, not by going directly

[00:10:21] and he doesn't have like an ex wife there or something, but, um, he coordinates with supply

[00:10:26] to get Julia at the right tape and then goes, leaves finally his workshop to go see the screen.

[00:10:31] To watch her walk. But then after that, you do still see in the books that he still struggles

[00:10:37] with it. It doesn't like, just because you've made a big step forward with, with something

[00:10:42] you've been struggling with doesn't mean that it's now over.

[00:10:45] Yeah. And it's now gotten that you are, you are in inverted commas cured.

[00:10:50] Right. Um, so yeah, up until the end, like you see that Walker prefers more confined spaces

[00:10:55] where he feels cozy and, you know, gets nervous to walk through the cafeteria and all that stuff.

[00:11:00] So yeah, they, they kind of dropped the ball there and that, and that is also my one big

[00:11:05] gripe for this episode, but I promise we love the episode otherwise.

[00:11:07] Yeah. I mean, uh, otherwise it was, otherwise it was a brilliant episode, but I think it is

[00:11:12] just worth, you know, we're always coming from a place of love with these reviews, but when

[00:11:15] the show does drop the ball, it's important that we point it out as well. So we're not just,

[00:11:20] we're not just fanboying and fangirling.

[00:11:22] Right. You can, I can fanboy too. Um, yeah, so this episode, like I said, it definitely reflects

[00:11:31] book stuff in ways I can't talk about yet, uh, but well in the spoiler class, but I, yeah,

[00:11:36] it adds layers also to what I know from the books, like that speech or the whole thing about Bernard

[00:11:43] having a former shadow is not in the books. And I think that that, cause judge Meadows is not a

[00:11:49] character in the books. There's a judge Pickens who's just kind of like a side character you meet

[00:11:53] later, but, um, yeah. So, uh, this episode had me sitting on the edge of my seat a lot more than

[00:11:59] the first one I have to say. And there were a few actual gasps. So I seem to like the political

[00:12:06] intrigue more than the action in this show personally.

[00:12:09] Yeah. I think I'm there with you actually. I think, I think we're on the same page there.

[00:12:13] You know why that is?

[00:12:15] Why?

[00:12:16] Because we're nerds.

[00:12:20] Yeah. Well, yeah, there's, there's, there's really no denying that.

[00:12:25] I'm glad they have something for everybody. Um, all right, so let's get into the episode itself.

[00:12:30] We're going to talk about one arc at a time. So that'll mean that we will talk about some

[00:12:36] scenes out of order versus the order that they occur in the show, but it's just easier to do it

[00:12:41] this way. Speaking of order, let's start with the order. So we see Bernard, Tim Robbins,

[00:12:49] uh, he's alone in a room and it's not the janitor's closet, but there is like a monitor that he's

[00:12:55] watching. And, um, this room seems more tailored to personal surveillance. He's watching through

[00:13:02] Juliet's helmet cam as she discovers silo 17 and the body spilling out of the airlocks.

[00:13:09] And he watches until she destroys her helmet. And then he opens a book labeled the order

[00:13:13] and scans a section labeled in the event of a failed cleaning prepare for war. As an alarm goes off,

[00:13:21] a worried Bernard exits this new to viewers space, closing a circular door behind him and takes off

[00:13:29] on a run. So did you get the idea that Bernard isn't surprised to see this other silo, but is

[00:13:36] surprised to see the dead people?

[00:13:37] Yeah. And like the look of horror on Bernard's face, it's a really good bit of physical acting by, um,

[00:13:44] Tim Robbins because Bernard is shook. You know, this is a guy who, who knows what's going on,

[00:13:50] who is in command, who is in charge. And you see in that moment that all of that assurance,

[00:13:55] all of that, um, sense of power is just gone. And like the look of horror on his face. And I think

[00:14:02] that's, that's important, um, for Bernard's character because it makes him something more

[00:14:07] than a mustache twirling villain. Like you can disagree with what Bernard's doing, but you can't

[00:14:13] doubt his motivation is the best interest of the people, uh, living in silo 18. Um, and he,

[00:14:21] there's, he has a conversation with, um, the, with judge Meadows about this later on in the episode.

[00:14:27] But yeah, I think it's really adds something, um, to Bernard's character. And is that room,

[00:14:34] do we think, do we think solo is in the same room, the equivalent room in silo 17? Cause it looked

[00:14:42] like it to me with the circular door and the circular door with the ice, the people, you know,

[00:14:50] slit at the same level. Um, and yeah, uh, yes. I mean, I think that we can confirm it because also

[00:14:58] the other thing I pointed out, uh, for the episode one breakdown, I pointed out that you get a glimpse

[00:15:03] through this room where we see blinking machines through this sort of alcove to the side, we get a

[00:15:09] much better look at the equivalent in this silo of that same alcove. And now I can point out for people

[00:15:16] who don't spend a lot of time in it. The, um, what we see in the alcove are server closets.

[00:15:22] So it's computer servers in there. Okay. So this must be an it somewhere, which makes sense because

[00:15:28] Bernard's there and he's the head of it. Yeah. Um, also if you want to keep the population

[00:15:34] calm and everything under control, maybe don't go with big, big loud alarms telling people not to

[00:15:41] panic. Have you ever known a siren to be good? Pump like, yeah. Pump some, you know, elevator music.

[00:15:49] Yeah. Just some, just some nice music rather than wow. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess, you know,

[00:15:57] I can understand from the filmmaking perspective, it's to get the viewers frame in that mindset,

[00:16:02] you know, that Bernard is freaking out because he's, he sees these dead bodies. He's like,

[00:16:08] oh my God, that could happen to us. That could happen to us. That could happen to us.

[00:16:11] So that shows why, you know, like we are not shy about calling Bernard out for not being a good guy,

[00:16:17] but, um, he does have a reason for the things that he does.

[00:16:22] Yeah. I think with Bernard, like the, the phrase is the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[00:16:27] Right. Right. And so what did you make of this book that he's looking at in this new hidey hole?

[00:16:35] Okay. So we've got the pack and we've got the order. And I think it's important to establish

[00:16:39] that these are two different things. Yes.

[00:16:41] Meant for two different audiences. Right.

[00:16:44] So clearly the order is what's, is the handbook for what's really going on.

[00:16:50] Mm-hmm.

[00:16:50] The pack is designed to keep everybody sort of on track. And yeah,

[00:16:57] it's sort of designed to keep everybody dorsal and sort of in their roles.

[00:17:02] Right. But it, but the order doesn't give a lot of very good advice because it's just,

[00:17:07] yeah, in the event of a failed cleaning, prepare for war. You're screwed basically.

[00:17:11] Well, that, that line is straight from the book actually.

[00:17:14] Okay.

[00:17:14] Yeah. Um, yeah, that line is straight from the book. The, the order is from the book. Um,

[00:17:20] I'm reluctant to say too much about the order at this point, but it's like, uh, you know, Luke,

[00:17:25] you're a smart cookie. You are piecing it together already.

[00:17:28] Yeah. But also really nice printed book. Like as somebody that spent a lot of time around hardback

[00:17:34] books, that one was really well printed.

[00:17:37] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And for people who want me to be less coy about the packs in the order

[00:17:43] and how they relate, um, that's what the spoiler cast is going to be this week about. So I was

[00:17:49] paying attention. I paused several times to try to see what's the keypad code that he puts in as he

[00:17:54] leaves. And it looks, it looks like it definitely ends on an eight. It looks like it ended on a three

[00:18:00] eights, but it feels like 18 would make more sense, but I don't know why it could just, it could be any

[00:18:06] random code could be his, maybe he once had maybe his mom's birthday. We still don't know.

[00:18:13] Maybe somebody's birthday. Yeah. Yeah. We still don't know like anything about Bernard's private

[00:18:19] life. We don't know where he lives. We don't know anything about his family or if he has any friends

[00:18:24] or family now.

[00:18:25] Well, we know, we know that he has a kind of, um, ex work bestie in Judge Meadows.

[00:18:32] Right. We learned that this episode. Yeah.

[00:18:34] They were clearly close at one point and I wouldn't, I wouldn't be entirely shocked to find

[00:18:40] out later down the line that they were romantically involved at some point. There seemed to be a

[00:18:43] little bit of a frisson. There seemed to be a little bit of a frisson there.

[00:18:47] Okay. You know, hmm. Yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe. Mm-hmm. Okay.

[00:18:52] Yeah.

[00:18:53] All right. Well, continuing forward, Bernard meets Sims played by Common on one of the bridges in the

[00:18:58] silo with a low level panic spreading throughout and Sims is upset that he couldn't find Bernard

[00:19:03] when everything started going sideways. So we know Sims does not know about the secret hidey hole.

[00:19:07] Um, people are talking openly about rebellion, but he's already got the jackboots on the job and Bernard

[00:19:14] tells Sims to implement an 8 PM emergency curfew, put the sheriff's deputies under judicial command

[00:19:21] and watch Juliet's father. Bernard says he'll make a speech later that day. He says he needs to know

[00:19:28] what happened, but he knows what happened. If Sims will kindly detain the two names on his list,

[00:19:35] which we'll later learn are Martha and her ex-wife, Carla, the woman from supply who helped

[00:19:39] Martha set up Juliet with a good tape. So yeah. Do you want to remind people about the whole tape

[00:19:46] situation? Because that's really important this episode.

[00:19:48] Yeah. So there are two types of tape, two types of heat tape, the good heat tape that IT uses to keep its servers

[00:19:55] and computers all nice and cool. And then there's the heat tape everybody else uses, including in the down deep.

[00:20:02] And it's still, and that's the bad tea tape. And it's also used for the cleaning to secure the suit

[00:20:08] around the wrist and ankles. And that's what...

[00:20:12] Well, I think it's only used for that, the bad tape.

[00:20:14] Oh, I thought it was, they used it in the down... I thought they used it in the down deep as well.

[00:20:18] No, no, the down deep uses the good tape because the down deep...

[00:20:21] Because the good tape is actually made to like seal machines and the things it's meant to be for.

[00:20:26] The shitty heat tape, as it kept being called last season, is made to fall apart outside so that cleaners die.

[00:20:33] That's all it's for.

[00:20:33] Okay. Okay.

[00:20:35] Thanks for clarifying that.

[00:20:37] So yeah, so Julia had the good heat tape, which is why she was able to make it over the hill to Silo 17.

[00:20:45] Yeah, right. Exactly.

[00:20:48] Yeah, so we'll, there's a lot of tape talk this episode we'll be talking about as we go along,

[00:20:53] including what the spy work with those two detainees.

[00:20:56] But first, I have to pull a Paul Billings, Chinaza Uche, and ask, but what about the pact?

[00:21:06] So Billings, his head is spinning from what just happened during the cleaning,

[00:21:10] and he's none too happy about all of the pact violations going on.

[00:21:14] Sims says it's only temporary, and Billings should keep himself busy moving into the recently vacated sheriff's apartment.

[00:21:20] They have to pave the way back to normalcy by acting coolly and calmly themselves.

[00:21:25] Billings asks Sims for his statement on the cleaning, and Sims says,

[00:21:30] Bernard believed Juliet broke the relic laws.

[00:21:32] He led her to the cornfield to keep the arrest from disrupting the rest of the Silo,

[00:21:37] and once he confronted her about the relics, she said she wanted to go outside,

[00:21:42] and Sims saw it, and then she ran, and the raiders chased her down.

[00:21:45] End of statement.

[00:21:46] Do you think Billings believes any of this?

[00:21:49] No, because Billings asks a very pertinent question,

[00:21:52] which is if she said she wanted to go outside, why did she run?

[00:21:56] So I don't think Billings believes any of this.

[00:21:59] And also, we know that Billings is in a state of confusion anyway,

[00:22:02] because he saw the Georgia tourist book last season.

[00:22:06] So I'm not sure Billings knows what to think about anything at this point.

[00:22:11] And oh, by the way, there's no way I'm moving into that sheriff's apartment.

[00:22:15] Like the last two of them have been sent out to clean.

[00:22:17] There is no way I'm moving into that apartment right now.

[00:22:21] They've definitely replaced the camera, but when he burned the book there,

[00:22:25] the camera was broken because Juliet broke it.

[00:22:28] So they did not see him find the book and burn it.

[00:22:33] Oh, so is it just me, or do you think his syndrome is getting worse?

[00:22:37] Oh, I was going to say the opposite,

[00:22:39] because they zoomed in on Billings' hand when Sims said,

[00:22:46] we have to stay calm, and it showed his hand was quite calm, actually.

[00:22:50] No, but he's sitting there with his right hand over his left.

[00:22:54] Yeah, he was holding it, but he always does that.

[00:22:56] Yeah.

[00:22:57] Okay.

[00:22:58] I don't know.

[00:22:59] I thought that it was showing why.

[00:23:01] I thought that the point of that was to give us the idea,

[00:23:04] like, okay, so Sims is telling Billings to be calm,

[00:23:07] but who's more likely to act coolly and collectively out of those two?

[00:23:12] It's true.

[00:23:12] That's true.

[00:23:13] And I do like the snark in.

[00:23:16] Is there any other parts of the pack that Bernard wants us to ignore?

[00:23:19] Yeah.

[00:23:20] Oh, he's in a calling out mood, yeah.

[00:23:22] Yeah, like he put some real snark behind that.

[00:23:26] Yeah.

[00:23:28] But yes, and he also called out, you said about, you know,

[00:23:32] why did she run if she said she wanted to go outside?

[00:23:34] And Sims said, oh, she must have changed her mind.

[00:23:36] Like, okay, dude.

[00:23:37] But he also points out that Bernard destroyed the red level relic,

[00:23:42] and that's the hard drive that he's referring to,

[00:23:45] that Bernard confiscated and destroyed at the end of last season.

[00:23:49] And Sims says, for the safety of the silo.

[00:23:53] So, yeah, he's noticing stuff.

[00:23:54] He's like, in his head, I imagine, like a mental checklist of like, hmm.

[00:23:59] Yeah, I got the feeling that scene,

[00:24:01] he's moving more towards the Julia end of the Sims Nard scale.

[00:24:05] He's still very much in the middle,

[00:24:07] but maybe just a tiny bit more towards the Julia end of the Sims Nard scale.

[00:24:13] I have to shout out the actor, Chinaza Uche.

[00:24:17] Just like, the way he delivered Alone the line,

[00:24:20] she walked over the hill.

[00:24:21] Like, oh, he's just so good.

[00:24:23] He's such a good actor.

[00:24:24] He's got very little to do, but he communicates a lot with it.

[00:24:28] Oh, really?

[00:24:29] Oh, I think he has a lot to do.

[00:24:30] But I think he does require...

[00:24:32] I meant sort of in this episode, doesn't matter much.

[00:24:35] Hmm.

[00:24:36] Yeah, but I think, yeah, this character requires like,

[00:24:39] subtlety in the acting, and he really is very deft with that.

[00:24:43] He is.

[00:24:43] And he's very, he's likable.

[00:24:45] Like, I know you like Billings for, you know,

[00:24:48] you like the type of character that he is.

[00:24:50] That's not normally the type of character I'm so into,

[00:24:53] but Chinaza Uche just makes him so likable

[00:24:55] that he's one of my favorite characters too in the show.

[00:24:57] Yeah.

[00:24:58] In the book, he's a stronger person in the show than the book.

[00:25:01] Yeah, I think you said last season that he's,

[00:25:04] he's a much more sort of filled out, rounded character in the show than he is in the book.

[00:25:09] He also has, he has more of a backbone.

[00:25:11] He's kind of more obsequious in the books.

[00:25:13] Okay.

[00:25:14] Okay, let's pause here to take a quick break,

[00:25:17] and then we'll be back to talk about what's going on in the Down Deep.

[00:25:30] Okay, well, speaking of backbone,

[00:25:33] we've got some rumblings from the deep.

[00:25:36] Chaos reigns in the Down Deep cafeteria as the alarm goes off.

[00:25:40] Deputy Hank, played by Billy Postlethwight?

[00:25:44] Postlethwight.

[00:25:44] Yeah, almost.

[00:25:46] What's the difference between what I said and what you said?

[00:25:48] Okay, yeah, no, you got it this time.

[00:25:50] You got it this time.

[00:25:51] You got it.

[00:25:52] I'm just teasing you at this point.

[00:25:56] Yeah, Postlethwight.

[00:25:57] Okay, so Deputy Hank, played by that actor,

[00:26:01] tries to calm things down and stop people from cutting the speakers to shut off the announcements,

[00:26:05] but fails miserably.

[00:26:07] They've all seen Juliet walk over the hill,

[00:26:09] and they think that means it's safe,

[00:26:11] and some people even want to go further.

[00:26:14] The crowd doesn't quiet down until Knox, played by Shane McRae,

[00:26:18] takes over corralling them,

[00:26:20] but he tells Hank to shut the fuck up and listen to the people.

[00:26:23] He calls Juliet one of their own,

[00:26:26] to which Shirley calls out them,

[00:26:27] why the fuck did you turn her in?

[00:26:29] Knox admits that he did that,

[00:26:31] and says he did it to protect the rest of them.

[00:26:33] They are looking for any excuse to tear their homes apart

[00:26:37] because they think they're dumb animals,

[00:26:39] and they have to show them.

[00:26:41] But he's cut off by Shirley,

[00:26:42] who says they need to show them,

[00:26:44] by cutting off the power and shutting down the silo.

[00:26:47] Knox says that's an extreme measure.

[00:26:49] They can only pull once,

[00:26:50] so they better make sure they pick the right moment,

[00:26:52] and he doesn't think that moment is now yet.

[00:26:55] Things continue to get more heated

[00:26:57] until Martha sprays the crowd down with a fire hose.

[00:27:00] As Shirley storms out,

[00:27:01] Knox tells her to stop before she sets off the tinderbox.

[00:27:06] She asks if that's a command as head of mechanical,

[00:27:08] and he says yes.

[00:27:10] So yeah, we already did our Martha complaints.

[00:27:13] We'll let that rest.

[00:27:14] You know, she should not be miraculously cured,

[00:27:16] but okay, moving forward.

[00:27:18] That's the way it is in the show from now on.

[00:27:20] So, Knox is obviously on our shit list

[00:27:24] for the reasons that Shirley calls out directly,

[00:27:27] but Shirley's also talking some dangerous stuff.

[00:27:29] So, is he also kind of right in a way to tell her to shut up?

[00:27:34] Yeah, I mean, I think Knox is on your shit list

[00:27:37] more than he's on mine.

[00:27:38] Okay.

[00:27:39] You like order too.

[00:27:41] Because I kind of agree with Knox.

[00:27:45] He really didn't have a choice but to turn Julia in.

[00:27:48] And the Raiders were going to find her anyway,

[00:27:51] sooner or later.

[00:27:52] Because that's just the nature of the silo.

[00:27:54] You can hide, but you can't run.

[00:27:58] And actually, I have a lot of respect for Knox

[00:28:02] coming out of this scene.

[00:28:03] Because he's just trying to make sure

[00:28:05] that none of his people get hurt.

[00:28:08] And he's also trying to keep things together

[00:28:11] in the silo.

[00:28:12] And I do like the,

[00:28:14] that's a thing we can do once.

[00:28:17] Because he's absolutely right.

[00:28:19] Like, you can only shut the silo down once.

[00:28:22] And there's no guarantee that when you do that,

[00:28:24] you'll be able to turn everything back on again either.

[00:28:27] So, it's a really dangerous thing to do.

[00:28:30] Yeah.

[00:28:32] And also, I like the,

[00:28:34] is that an order?

[00:28:35] Yes.

[00:28:36] Yes.

[00:28:36] Yeah.

[00:28:37] Just to just...

[00:28:39] Yeah.

[00:28:40] I have a lot more respect for Knox

[00:28:42] after this little scene.

[00:28:43] So, yeah.

[00:28:45] My question though is,

[00:28:47] by telling Shirley to shut up,

[00:28:49] like when you just tell someone to shut up,

[00:28:51] that can often backfire

[00:28:53] and Shirley seems to really have the personality

[00:28:56] that would make that happen, you know?

[00:28:58] Like, I understand he's trying to keep things under control,

[00:29:01] but that just makes her feel more frustrated

[00:29:03] and like she's not being heard.

[00:29:04] Don't you think it could make the situation worse?

[00:29:06] Yeah.

[00:29:07] No, that's true.

[00:29:09] But like, Knox has,

[00:29:11] you know,

[00:29:11] there are probably several hundred people in the downbeat.

[00:29:14] And like, you know,

[00:29:15] things are really starting to fall apart.

[00:29:18] So...

[00:29:18] Yeah.

[00:29:19] He probably does.

[00:29:20] Like, I agree with you

[00:29:22] that that's what Shirley is going to do,

[00:29:24] but he probably doesn't have the time

[00:29:25] or inclination

[00:29:27] to do anything else.

[00:29:29] And also, Knox is an authority figure.

[00:29:32] He's used to people doing what?

[00:29:34] Doing what he tells them to do.

[00:29:36] Mm-hmm.

[00:29:37] And he's used to the idea

[00:29:38] that people trust him to know what he's doing.

[00:29:42] So...

[00:29:42] Yeah.

[00:29:44] I take your point and you're right.

[00:29:47] But I think that's just the way Knox

[00:29:49] that's the way those two personalities interact with each other, basically.

[00:29:54] Yeah.

[00:29:54] He has BDE,

[00:29:56] big director of mechanical energy.

[00:29:58] He does, yeah.

[00:30:02] It did, by the way.

[00:30:03] I just recently,

[00:30:05] finally watched the Metropolis,

[00:30:07] this famous,

[00:30:08] one of the first sci-fi films from 1927.

[00:30:10] I think it's the first feature-length one, maybe.

[00:30:13] But yeah,

[00:30:14] it reminded me of that

[00:30:15] in where it's ostensibly,

[00:30:18] Metropolis is ostensibly like a pro-communist film,

[00:30:21] although I have questions about that.

[00:30:24] But they say at one point,

[00:30:26] you know,

[00:30:26] the workers,

[00:30:26] they want to rebel

[00:30:27] and they destroy the machines.

[00:30:30] And then they're like,

[00:30:31] by destroying the machines,

[00:30:32] you destroy yourself.

[00:30:33] And I guess there is also,

[00:30:35] there's some truth to that.

[00:30:37] Like,

[00:30:37] if they turn off the silo,

[00:30:40] that means,

[00:30:40] you know,

[00:30:40] it's not working for them either.

[00:30:42] And they're all stuck in this underground,

[00:30:44] giant bunker with everything dying.

[00:30:47] Yeah, and like I say,

[00:30:47] given what happened with the turbine last season,

[00:30:50] there's no guarantee that once you switch stuff off,

[00:30:52] you'll be able to safely switch it back on.

[00:30:55] Yeah, well, yeah,

[00:30:56] there was,

[00:30:56] that is a question because,

[00:30:59] wasn't there,

[00:30:59] this,

[00:31:00] the turbine works differently in the show versus the book,

[00:31:03] but I recall Juliet saying something like,

[00:31:07] you couldn't turn,

[00:31:08] you couldn't turn it off all the way,

[00:31:11] or for too long.

[00:31:12] This is why they had to work quickly because of the mechanics of,

[00:31:15] yeah,

[00:31:15] again,

[00:31:16] we're not mechanics on this podcast.

[00:31:17] We're sorry about that.

[00:31:18] I just,

[00:31:19] I just,

[00:31:19] I just took from it that if you turn it off,

[00:31:22] you wouldn't be,

[00:31:22] you might not be able to safely turn it back on.

[00:31:25] Oh no.

[00:31:26] I thought it was like,

[00:31:27] they had a limited time they could turn it off,

[00:31:28] but anyway,

[00:31:29] yeah,

[00:31:29] it could be detrimental.

[00:31:31] But what do you think is the distance,

[00:31:34] because Knox was saying to Hank,

[00:31:38] like,

[00:31:38] shut up and listen to the people,

[00:31:39] but Shirley's taking a step further.

[00:31:41] How far apart do you think Knox and Shirley really are?

[00:31:45] Was he saying,

[00:31:46] was he saying,

[00:31:48] was he telling Hank to shut up?

[00:31:50] Yes.

[00:31:50] And listen to the people?

[00:31:51] Or was he telling the people to shut up and listen to Hank?

[00:31:53] And I did not insert the F word.

[00:31:55] That was his.

[00:31:55] Okay.

[00:31:56] Yeah.

[00:31:56] He said,

[00:31:57] shut the fuck up and listen to the people.

[00:31:59] Okay.

[00:32:00] Yeah.

[00:32:01] I thought he said,

[00:32:01] listen to these people talking about Hank.

[00:32:04] No,

[00:32:05] no,

[00:32:05] no.

[00:32:05] He was telling Hank to shut up and listen to,

[00:32:07] he said they saw Juliet walk over the hill and,

[00:32:09] you know,

[00:32:09] we have to show them.

[00:32:10] And then Shirley's like,

[00:32:11] let's show them by turning off the machines.

[00:32:13] And he's like,

[00:32:13] whoa,

[00:32:14] whoa,

[00:32:14] whoa,

[00:32:14] whoa,

[00:32:14] whoa,

[00:32:15] whoa,

[00:32:15] whoa.

[00:32:16] Also,

[00:32:17] shout out to Billy Posslethwaite this episode,

[00:32:19] because never has a guy looked more hangdog.

[00:32:22] Never has a guy looked more put upon and just wanting to be left alone.

[00:32:26] Yeah.

[00:32:28] Than Hank in this episode.

[00:32:29] And also,

[00:32:30] it's the first time I've looked at him and thought,

[00:32:33] yeah,

[00:32:33] you actually look quite a bit like your dad.

[00:32:36] I can see Pete Posslethwaite.

[00:32:38] Yeah.

[00:32:38] In this performance.

[00:32:40] Oh.

[00:32:40] Yeah.

[00:32:41] Yeah.

[00:32:42] Sometimes I think we should call it like the Hank to Simsnard scale,

[00:32:45] because like,

[00:32:46] especially the TV show version of Hank has never done a thing wrong.

[00:32:51] He just,

[00:32:51] he just wants to be left alone.

[00:32:54] Well,

[00:32:54] I love like,

[00:32:55] cause when people are like,

[00:32:56] Juliet went outside,

[00:32:56] I want to go outside.

[00:32:57] He's like,

[00:32:58] please.

[00:32:58] He's like putting his fingers in his ears.

[00:33:00] la la la la.

[00:33:01] You didn't say that.

[00:33:02] You didn't say that.

[00:33:04] He's trying so hard.

[00:33:07] But question though,

[00:33:08] where would you put Knox currently on the Julie Hank to Simsnard scale?

[00:33:14] I would put him close to the Julie Hank end of the Simsnard scale.

[00:33:18] I think Knox is not a bad guy.

[00:33:22] He's a good guy who has been asked to,

[00:33:26] to,

[00:33:27] to be the boss,

[00:33:28] to,

[00:33:28] to be,

[00:33:29] you know,

[00:33:30] be the direct big director of mechanical energy.

[00:33:32] Um,

[00:33:33] and he's doing the best,

[00:33:35] he's doing the best he can.

[00:33:37] Um,

[00:33:39] and he didn't sell Julia out because he was mean or vindictive.

[00:33:44] I agree with him.

[00:33:45] Yeah.

[00:33:46] What about Shirley?

[00:33:48] Where would you put Shirley on that scale?

[00:33:49] Oh,

[00:33:49] sure.

[00:33:50] Shirley's not on that scale.

[00:33:51] Shirley doesn't,

[00:33:52] Shirley's just all like piss and vinegar.

[00:33:54] Like she's an anarchist.

[00:33:57] Yeah.

[00:33:57] She's just,

[00:33:58] yeah.

[00:33:58] She's on the scale of one.

[00:34:00] She just wants to break the scale,

[00:34:01] man.

[00:34:02] She doesn't have time for your rules.

[00:34:04] Break the wheel.

[00:34:05] Yeah.

[00:34:06] Um,

[00:34:07] yeah.

[00:34:08] Okay.

[00:34:08] So I actually would put Billings closer to Julie Hank than I would put

[00:34:15] Knox.

[00:34:16] And with Knox and Shirley,

[00:34:19] it's hard for me to,

[00:34:20] cause I do think obviously Knox,

[00:34:21] Knox is in the coming from the right place.

[00:34:26] Um,

[00:34:26] but it,

[00:34:29] it's more like,

[00:34:30] but I think Bernard is coming from the right place.

[00:34:32] And I'm not saying he's Bernard.

[00:34:33] I'm not saying he's Bernard.

[00:34:34] Just to make that clear up front.

[00:34:35] Um,

[00:34:35] but just in the way of sometimes,

[00:34:38] sometimes you're trying so hard to do something that you don't notice what

[00:34:43] lines you're stepping across.

[00:34:44] And I feel like Billings is Billings doesn't always follow his own rules.

[00:34:49] Um,

[00:34:50] but he's always thinking about what lines he's crossing.

[00:34:53] And I think because he's always haunted by that time,

[00:34:55] he beat up the kid who also had the syndrome as a teenager.

[00:34:59] And he's like,

[00:35:00] I can't cross the line like that again.

[00:35:02] Yeah.

[00:35:02] I mean,

[00:35:03] like I said,

[00:35:03] I think Knox is,

[00:35:05] I think Knox is just trying to get from one day to the next.

[00:35:08] And keep the silo and keep the silo running and keep everybody alive and sort of pointed in the same direction.

[00:35:16] Yeah.

[00:35:16] I don't,

[00:35:17] I don't think it's that he's not considering the lines he's crossing.

[00:35:21] It's just from his point of view,

[00:35:23] he's never had time to stop and not be,

[00:35:27] you know,

[00:35:28] not be Knox,

[00:35:29] not be,

[00:35:29] um,

[00:35:30] not be big department of mechanical energy.

[00:35:33] Yeah.

[00:35:36] Yeah.

[00:35:36] So I do have to say that,

[00:35:38] uh,

[00:35:38] things are escalating more quickly in the show than the book,

[00:35:41] but that makes sense.

[00:35:42] Like they take the time to build out the character sideways,

[00:35:44] but then the action kind of has to,

[00:35:46] you know,

[00:35:46] like we've got to move forward.

[00:35:49] I loved,

[00:35:50] there was a,

[00:35:51] when Shirley calls out Knox,

[00:35:53] there was a side eye reaction from one of the women in the crowd.

[00:35:57] I'm going to,

[00:35:57] um,

[00:35:59] paste that picture in the show notes.

[00:36:00] I thought it was really funny.

[00:36:03] Um,

[00:36:04] she's like,

[00:36:04] Oh,

[00:36:05] also,

[00:36:06] I love Knox's haircut.

[00:36:08] Like,

[00:36:08] okay.

[00:36:09] For,

[00:36:09] for,

[00:36:09] for people,

[00:36:10] for people,

[00:36:11] for people who are in the down deep and mechanical,

[00:36:14] you know,

[00:36:14] they pay a lot of attention to personal grooming.

[00:36:18] Knox has a really bad ass haircut.

[00:36:20] I like that haircut.

[00:36:21] Well,

[00:36:22] it is funny because yeah,

[00:36:23] it is like they have the tattoos down there,

[00:36:25] which you don't see so much in the rest of the silo.

[00:36:27] It's,

[00:36:27] you know,

[00:36:28] they are everyone peacocks in their own ways,

[00:36:30] you know?

[00:36:31] Yeah.

[00:36:32] Um,

[00:36:33] one thing I found interesting is that Knox,

[00:36:36] he says,

[00:36:37] they think we're dumb animals.

[00:36:39] He says about,

[00:36:40] you know,

[00:36:41] I guess judicial and the up top and all that.

[00:36:44] Um,

[00:36:45] it just,

[00:36:45] as I was rewatching that,

[00:36:47] it made me think,

[00:36:48] is this what popular populism looks like?

[00:36:50] Like that,

[00:36:52] you know,

[00:36:53] it just saying the elites,

[00:36:54] they think that you are stupid,

[00:36:56] but,

[00:36:57] yeah.

[00:36:57] I mean,

[00:36:58] and I mean,

[00:36:58] bear,

[00:36:58] bear in mind for the listeners,

[00:37:00] we are watching this,

[00:37:01] the week of the American presidential election.

[00:37:05] So,

[00:37:05] and as you can imagine,

[00:37:06] Luke and I are thrilled with the results.

[00:37:09] just,

[00:37:09] yeah,

[00:37:10] great.

[00:37:11] Yeah.

[00:37:11] but then,

[00:37:12] but it does,

[00:37:13] you know,

[00:37:13] in this,

[00:37:13] and that is a real life case where,

[00:37:15] you know,

[00:37:16] you have somebody saying like,

[00:37:17] oh,

[00:37:18] they think that you're dumb.

[00:37:19] So let's hate them.

[00:37:20] Yeah.

[00:37:20] but then,

[00:37:21] you're absolutely,

[00:37:22] you're absolutely,

[00:37:23] you're absolutely right.

[00:37:24] And the thing is,

[00:37:25] the thing is,

[00:37:26] it works because what Knox is saying is to some extent true.

[00:37:32] You know,

[00:37:32] you,

[00:37:32] you could find examples,

[00:37:35] you know,

[00:37:35] people in the up top of the silo do look down literally and metaphorically.

[00:37:41] Sure.

[00:37:41] Yeah.

[00:37:41] People in the down D.

[00:37:43] Yeah.

[00:37:43] No,

[00:37:44] it's,

[00:37:44] it is truth what he's saying,

[00:37:45] but then on the other hand,

[00:37:46] like this anti-elitism can,

[00:37:49] it gets dangerous because when it starts pushing people to dismiss reason.

[00:37:54] Yeah.

[00:37:54] Cause like Sims has like the snarky comment of,

[00:37:57] you know,

[00:37:57] then they must be living this in the down D.

[00:37:59] Right.

[00:37:59] When he's talking to Bernard.

[00:38:01] So yeah,

[00:38:02] they're definitely panicking down there too.

[00:38:03] Yeah.

[00:38:04] There definitely is that element of snobbery.

[00:38:06] Mm.

[00:38:07] Yeah.

[00:38:08] No,

[00:38:08] both are true where it's,

[00:38:09] you know,

[00:38:11] they maybe are,

[00:38:13] viewing people that way,

[00:38:15] but also there,

[00:38:16] they do have more information and that's,

[00:38:20] that's,

[00:38:20] that's what it comes down to for me.

[00:38:22] You know,

[00:38:22] I'm always like,

[00:38:23] just communicate all the things.

[00:38:25] Yeah.

[00:38:26] Transparency.

[00:38:27] Yeah.

[00:38:28] But then,

[00:38:29] yeah,

[00:38:29] obviously at this point,

[00:38:32] if like they were suddenly to just tell people the truth about there being other

[00:38:35] silos out there,

[00:38:36] I can see that would,

[00:38:37] that would be bad news.

[00:38:39] Yeah.

[00:38:39] How do we figure out,

[00:38:40] we've got to figure out a way to tell people about this stuff.

[00:38:44] But how do we get to this situation where,

[00:38:47] yeah,

[00:38:48] you know,

[00:38:48] you,

[00:38:49] uh,

[00:38:49] you can only maintain order by lying to people.

[00:38:52] Yeah.

[00:38:53] And I mean,

[00:38:53] I think that's like one of the things at the heart of the show is this idea that,

[00:38:58] that,

[00:39:00] that their whole society is built on lies,

[00:39:03] but those lies exist for a reason.

[00:39:09] And it's like,

[00:39:10] how long,

[00:39:12] how long can the dangers outside of the silo justify lying to the people inside of the silo?

[00:39:19] Right.

[00:39:20] Yep.

[00:39:22] Yep.

[00:39:23] Okay.

[00:39:24] So I'm moving forward.

[00:39:26] Uh,

[00:39:26] later,

[00:39:27] Shirley frets in Martha's workshop.

[00:39:29] She,

[00:39:29] of course,

[00:39:29] read the note Martha sent up with the hush puppies in the season finale.

[00:39:33] They're all good in supply.

[00:39:34] It said,

[00:39:34] we know this is about them swapping out the shitty heat tape made to break down during cleanings.

[00:39:39] So the person inside the suit would die with the good tape for mechanical made to actually seal important machines and all that,

[00:39:45] that we talked about earlier.

[00:39:46] Um,

[00:39:47] but surely is now piecing that together too,

[00:39:49] with the things that she's seen and overheard this season and last Martha says,

[00:39:54] good tape or no,

[00:39:55] there's no way Juliet survived because of course,

[00:39:57] as far as they know,

[00:39:58] where could she possibly go before she ran out of oxygen?

[00:40:02] Walker just wants to be alone,

[00:40:03] but Shirley says it's not enough to just mourn.

[00:40:07] And Hank arrives to arrest Walker as his new boss judicial commands,

[00:40:11] but he's really nice about it.

[00:40:13] Of course,

[00:40:14] he places her in a cell with her ex Carla and they talk about the heat tape.

[00:40:18] Carla wants to take the blame herself because clearly it would be traced to her and leave Martha out of it.

[00:40:25] Martha says they should just keep their mouth shut,

[00:40:27] but Carla says they'll find,

[00:40:29] they'll find out anyway,

[00:40:30] or just find someone to denounce them so that they can be sent to the mines or outside.

[00:40:35] Regardless,

[00:40:36] Carla is hoping that by fessing up,

[00:40:38] she can prevent them from denying what happened.

[00:40:42] Martha says they'll be taken out sooner or later.

[00:40:44] At least they could go out together.

[00:40:46] Little do they know a camera is recording their entire interaction.

[00:40:50] Later after the speech,

[00:40:52] which we'll talk about shortly,

[00:40:53] Hank comes back and says judicial has their explanation for the tape now referring to the speech,

[00:40:58] but little does he know also.

[00:41:01] And he says that the two women are free to go much to their confusion.

[00:41:06] So we'll talk about what Bernard says in the speech in a bit,

[00:41:09] but just pointing out now that these two obviously know that's all bullshit.

[00:41:13] Any thoughts on this interaction?

[00:41:15] Well,

[00:41:16] I did,

[00:41:16] I did sort of,

[00:41:18] I did sort of like the fact that they were literally discussing a prisoner's dilemma in a prison.

[00:41:24] That was a little,

[00:41:24] that was a little bit on the nose,

[00:41:26] which is prisoner's dilemma is if you put two prisoners in a cell,

[00:41:32] the only way the police can convict either of them of a crime is if one implicates the other.

[00:41:38] If they both stay silent,

[00:41:40] the police can't do anything,

[00:41:43] but neither prisoner can communicate clearly to the other.

[00:41:47] So they both have an incentive to rat the other one out or do they both stay silent?

[00:41:53] So I like the idea that it was a prisoner's dilemma in a prison.

[00:41:56] Um,

[00:41:58] I thought as soon as they put them in the same cell,

[00:42:00] I was like,

[00:42:01] yes,

[00:42:01] yeah,

[00:42:02] that's suspicious.

[00:42:03] That's suspicious.

[00:42:04] Also,

[00:42:05] I wonder whether that,

[00:42:07] whether Bernard was watching that conversation and whether or not that was like inspiration for the speech.

[00:42:14] Mm hmm.

[00:42:15] Uh,

[00:42:15] yeah,

[00:42:16] but what about the,

[00:42:17] yeah,

[00:42:18] sorry,

[00:42:18] because it seemed like that conversation obviously took place before Bernard gave a speech.

[00:42:23] So I wonder whether he was watching it.

[00:42:25] I wonder whether he'll,

[00:42:26] ah,

[00:42:27] maybe if I just fess up to the tape,

[00:42:32] that will sort of explain the whole thing.

[00:42:36] Yeah.

[00:42:36] So I thought that,

[00:42:37] I thought that was,

[00:42:38] I thought that was kind of interesting.

[00:42:39] And like I said,

[00:42:40] I just,

[00:42:40] I love Hank in this episode.

[00:42:42] Just the,

[00:42:42] the,

[00:42:44] you know,

[00:42:44] if,

[00:42:45] if you need anything,

[00:42:45] just yell until somebody comes.

[00:42:49] He's a lovable character.

[00:42:51] Um,

[00:42:52] yeah,

[00:42:53] I mean,

[00:42:53] that's a good point about him having watched beforehand because also they,

[00:42:58] you know,

[00:42:58] Martha insists,

[00:42:59] like,

[00:42:59] let's just not say anything.

[00:43:00] And so I guess that's satisfying.

[00:43:02] That satisfies him.

[00:43:04] He's like,

[00:43:04] oh,

[00:43:04] well,

[00:43:05] if I let them go,

[00:43:05] they're just going to not say anything because they don't want to die.

[00:43:08] And they understand that that's how it works.

[00:43:10] Um,

[00:43:10] but what about the interaction before that between Martha and Shirley?

[00:43:14] Any thoughts on that?

[00:43:16] Yeah.

[00:43:17] I mean,

[00:43:17] like Harriet Walter,

[00:43:18] really good actor.

[00:43:19] She really does get the depth of,

[00:43:22] um,

[00:43:23] Walker's grief over Juliet's presumed death.

[00:43:27] Um,

[00:43:28] it really does come out.

[00:43:29] And also,

[00:43:30] uh,

[00:43:31] the actress playing Shirley,

[00:43:32] she just like takes it down a notch.

[00:43:35] Uh,

[00:43:36] because she hadn't like,

[00:43:37] she hadn't,

[00:43:38] she was just sort of lost in her own sense of rage and grief.

[00:43:42] She hadn't really considered,

[00:43:44] uh,

[00:43:45] Walker's feelings in that moment.

[00:43:46] So there's a really nice sort of touching quality to that scene.

[00:43:50] Yeah.

[00:43:51] Yeah.

[00:43:51] I feel like Martha is the only one who can,

[00:43:53] you know,

[00:43:54] keep Shirley at least a bit in check for now.

[00:43:57] We'll see how long that holds.

[00:43:59] Uh,

[00:44:00] I wanted to,

[00:44:01] so when I rewatched the episode,

[00:44:02] I put the,

[00:44:04] um,

[00:44:05] audio description on and,

[00:44:07] uh,

[00:44:08] I just had to note,

[00:44:10] by the way.

[00:44:10] Yeah.

[00:44:10] Thank you Apple for including that in screeners.

[00:44:13] That's so rare.

[00:44:14] Um,

[00:44:14] but I just wanted to note that the audio,

[00:44:16] the AD calls out a character named Teddy,

[00:44:19] who's played by Ola Tunji,

[00:44:21] Eofe.

[00:44:22] And Teddy,

[00:44:24] I had to look him up cause I didn't really remember him.

[00:44:26] He's it's a black guy with short dreads.

[00:44:28] And,

[00:44:28] um,

[00:44:29] he's staring at Martha right after she's arrested.

[00:44:32] And he was in season one of the show as well,

[00:44:35] but I didn't really remember him because he's someone who was constantly in

[00:44:38] the background of mechanical and he had a few lines,

[00:44:40] but it seems like he's becoming more important this season.

[00:44:44] It's we'll see him again later with Shirley,

[00:44:46] but yeah.

[00:44:47] So wanted to call that out.

[00:44:49] Also.

[00:44:50] Yeah.

[00:44:51] Poor Hank and his thankless job.

[00:44:53] He's like sent to Russell,

[00:44:55] everybody up to make sure they hear Bernard speech.

[00:44:58] He's like,

[00:44:58] first they wanted them all inside.

[00:45:00] Now they want them all outside.

[00:45:06] But I have to ask,

[00:45:07] why did Juliet not tell Walker about the cameras when she was down there last

[00:45:12] season?

[00:45:12] Yeah.

[00:45:13] Again,

[00:45:14] communication people.

[00:45:15] Communication.

[00:45:17] Please.

[00:45:19] Do you think Martha and Carla are going to rekindle things?

[00:45:23] Oh yeah,

[00:45:24] but I kind of hope so.

[00:45:26] And then,

[00:45:27] then on the other hand,

[00:45:28] I kind of hope not because no couple in this show gets a happy ending.

[00:45:33] Maybe they'll be happier if they're apart.

[00:45:35] Yeah.

[00:45:35] So like they may be happier together,

[00:45:37] but the chances of survival are considerably better if they don't,

[00:45:42] if they don't reconcile,

[00:45:44] but that,

[00:45:44] that scene where they hold hands really,

[00:45:47] not really,

[00:45:48] really sweetly done.

[00:45:50] Yeah.

[00:45:51] Yeah.

[00:45:51] Well,

[00:45:52] I mean,

[00:45:52] my question is why did they break up in the first place?

[00:45:56] Um,

[00:45:56] and why didn't they see each other for so many years?

[00:45:58] Like there's a story there that we still heard.

[00:46:01] Yeah.

[00:46:01] I mean,

[00:46:02] we,

[00:46:02] we don't have enough information at the moment,

[00:46:04] but I think that's something they'll come back to hopefully.

[00:46:07] Yeah.

[00:46:08] Well,

[00:46:09] so speaking of that Teddy guy,

[00:46:11] um,

[00:46:11] who's apparently important to pay attention.

[00:46:13] Um,

[00:46:14] he goes and meets Shirley.

[00:46:16] He's played by Remy Miller Milner,

[00:46:17] by the way,

[00:46:18] and others in a tunnel.

[00:46:19] And he updates them on Walker's arrest.

[00:46:22] And Shirley shares what she's been putting together about the heat tape

[00:46:26] incident.

[00:46:26] And Shirley thinks they can get Walker to tell people what she knows,

[00:46:30] which I'm like,

[00:46:30] come on.

[00:46:31] You think Walker is going to tell people about the heat tape?

[00:46:33] She,

[00:46:33] she didn't even want Shirley to know about it.

[00:46:36] Yeah.

[00:46:37] Yeah.

[00:46:37] I don't think Shirley has thought this all the way through.

[00:46:40] I'm not sure Shirley has ever thought anything all the way through.

[00:46:43] No,

[00:46:44] that's true.

[00:46:45] Yeah.

[00:46:46] Um,

[00:46:47] the tunnel they're meeting in it's covered in graffiti.

[00:46:50] I don't know,

[00:46:50] like if this is meant to be the tunnel to the digger room or a different

[00:46:53] tunnel,

[00:46:54] I guess it doesn't matter.

[00:46:55] I guess if it's the one to the digger room,

[00:46:57] they're behind that don't pass here sign,

[00:47:00] which I guess is a good place together.

[00:47:02] Yeah.

[00:47:02] I thought it was,

[00:47:03] I took it to be the one to the digger room.

[00:47:05] Yeah.

[00:47:05] That makes sense.

[00:47:06] That makes sense.

[00:47:07] So in the meantime,

[00:47:08] Knox goes to see an old friend played by George Robinson,

[00:47:11] who seems to be the overseer of some sort of metal shop in the down deep.

[00:47:15] He seems to have a sort of loyalty to Knox because Knox's father helped him in

[00:47:19] some vague,

[00:47:20] but very important way in the past.

[00:47:21] But when Knox asks him to promise not to make weapons for anyone,

[00:47:25] he seems,

[00:47:26] I don't know,

[00:47:27] somewhat reluctant.

[00:47:27] Did you get that?

[00:47:29] Yeah.

[00:47:30] He definitely,

[00:47:30] he definitely paused there for a second.

[00:47:33] Like,

[00:47:33] yeah,

[00:47:34] I sort of,

[00:47:34] I sort of take this as,

[00:47:35] this is the,

[00:47:36] this is sort of the,

[00:47:37] the silos blacksmith,

[00:47:39] sort of it's metal,

[00:47:40] it's metal working shop.

[00:47:42] Also the guy's in a,

[00:47:43] the guy's in a powered wheelchair.

[00:47:45] And next time I,

[00:47:46] next time I get a new wheelchair,

[00:47:48] I want his kind of steampunk.

[00:47:51] Powered wheelchair.

[00:47:52] That is very,

[00:47:53] very cool.

[00:47:54] I didn't,

[00:47:55] I didn't have time to check this.

[00:47:58] Um,

[00:47:59] and maybe,

[00:48:00] and you probably didn't look it up either,

[00:48:02] but do we know if the,

[00:48:03] the actor is actually disabled?

[00:48:06] Because if he isn't,

[00:48:07] he does a very good,

[00:48:08] he does a very convincing.

[00:48:09] Oh,

[00:48:10] he is.

[00:48:10] Okay.

[00:48:11] I've seen him in other things as well.

[00:48:13] Um,

[00:48:13] most notably sex education,

[00:48:15] sex ed on Netflix.

[00:48:17] Okay.

[00:48:17] I haven't seen that.

[00:48:19] Yeah.

[00:48:19] Yeah.

[00:48:20] And,

[00:48:21] and I,

[00:48:21] his name,

[00:48:22] they don't say his name this episode,

[00:48:23] but I looked him up on IMDB.

[00:48:25] And so I know the name of this character is Mark chambers.

[00:48:28] So presumably he's going to be back as well because he,

[00:48:30] as well as that guy who plays Teddy,

[00:48:32] they were both in the first batch of names in the credits,

[00:48:37] if that makes sense.

[00:48:38] Anyway,

[00:48:38] it seems to be,

[00:48:38] those are like more recurring characters.

[00:48:40] Okay.

[00:48:41] Yeah.

[00:48:41] But yeah,

[00:48:42] I love,

[00:48:42] I love the steampunk powered chair.

[00:48:44] I want one of those.

[00:48:46] Yeah.

[00:48:47] Yeah.

[00:48:48] Yeah.

[00:48:48] And he,

[00:48:49] um,

[00:48:50] yeah.

[00:48:50] So,

[00:48:51] first of all,

[00:48:52] uh,

[00:48:52] it was interesting to me that this is apparently not considered part of

[00:48:55] mechanical.

[00:48:56] Cause he,

[00:48:56] when Knox walks in,

[00:48:58] he's like,

[00:48:58] I thought you,

[00:48:58] we told you scum for mechanical to stay out of here.

[00:49:01] And,

[00:49:02] um,

[00:49:02] I guess they're differentiating more in the show versus the book.

[00:49:05] And I hope that makes mechanics happy.

[00:49:08] Yeah.

[00:49:08] Why does everybody look down on mechanical?

[00:49:11] It's not like you've got it so good in the metalworking workshop.

[00:49:15] Yeah,

[00:49:15] no,

[00:49:16] I think,

[00:49:16] I guess maybe you always just look down,

[00:49:19] but yeah,

[00:49:19] I mean,

[00:49:20] I guess I presume that's part of the down deep too.

[00:49:22] I hope we,

[00:49:23] I hope we find out more about Knox's dad.

[00:49:26] That was,

[00:49:27] that was a really interesting little throwaway line.

[00:49:30] Yeah.

[00:49:30] He says,

[00:49:31] I wouldn't have made it out except for your dad.

[00:49:34] So out of where,

[00:49:35] out of mechanical,

[00:49:36] out of the mines,

[00:49:37] does this have to do with him being a wheelchair user?

[00:49:40] What did you make of that line?

[00:49:41] I'm not sure.

[00:49:42] I mean,

[00:49:43] like I had the same sort of three thought process that you just,

[00:49:47] you just outlined there.

[00:49:48] I don't think we have enough information to tell,

[00:49:50] but it's interesting that like people with the syndrome are,

[00:49:55] you know,

[00:49:55] are shunned,

[00:49:56] are sort of pushed out to the margins of silo society.

[00:50:00] And yet this guy seems to,

[00:50:03] this guy seems to be in charge of his own little section within the silo.

[00:50:08] So the silo's attitude towards illness and disability.

[00:50:11] I think we need to find out more about that at some point.

[00:50:15] Well,

[00:50:16] here's what,

[00:50:17] how I would clarify that,

[00:50:18] how that works in my own head is,

[00:50:20] um,

[00:50:21] first of all,

[00:50:22] they are further because they're in the down deep.

[00:50:24] They always are kind of left to their own devices to do things their way

[00:50:28] more.

[00:50:28] Um,

[00:50:30] but also my thought is that the syndrome apparently also has mental effects,

[00:50:35] or at least that's what they say.

[00:50:37] Or,

[00:50:37] um,

[00:50:38] so that is their excuse for not letting people have certain jobs.

[00:50:45] But,

[00:50:45] yeah,

[00:50:45] again,

[00:50:46] I think that there's less supervision of that sort of thing downstairs and

[00:50:50] mechanical.

[00:50:51] Although we did see,

[00:50:52] um,

[00:50:52] further up in the silo,

[00:50:53] like more toward like the up top mids,

[00:50:55] we saw people carrying someone on wheelchair,

[00:50:58] but we don't know where that person came from and what their job is.

[00:51:00] Where they were going or who they were.

[00:51:02] Yeah.

[00:51:02] Right.

[00:51:03] Right.

[00:51:04] He says,

[00:51:05] um,

[00:51:06] so yeah,

[00:51:06] I'm just going to call him Mark because that's apparently the character's

[00:51:08] name.

[00:51:09] Mark says they need us more than we need them though.

[00:51:13] He admits that it feels different this time.

[00:51:15] So I'm wondering,

[00:51:16] I'm suspecting,

[00:51:17] I don't know.

[00:51:18] I don't know if he,

[00:51:19] if he's going to end up on knock side of things when it comes to time to

[00:51:24] make weapons.

[00:51:25] Yeah.

[00:51:25] No,

[00:51:25] he definitely,

[00:51:26] he,

[00:51:27] he nodded.

[00:51:28] He,

[00:51:28] he did make that promise,

[00:51:30] but he certainly paused and we don't find out what the second,

[00:51:33] no,

[00:51:34] nox asks him for two things and we don't find out what the second one was.

[00:51:38] Yeah.

[00:51:39] He leans in and he,

[00:51:40] you know,

[00:51:41] he's like,

[00:51:41] there's a second thing and he leans in like he's about to whisper it to

[00:51:44] him and then it cuts.

[00:51:45] Yeah.

[00:51:46] And we're going to cut also right here for a quick commercial break.

[00:51:50] Okay.

[00:51:58] Okay.

[00:51:59] So we're back and we're coping.

[00:52:01] We're going to be a little bit of a,

[00:52:02] just with a doctor,

[00:52:03] daddy,

[00:52:03] Peter Nichols played by Ian Glenn.

[00:52:05] So he's Juliette's father and you know,

[00:52:08] his daughter has just been sent out to clean and he,

[00:52:11] we find him quietly sitting alone in the cafeteria,

[00:52:14] watching the screen long after everyone else has gone.

[00:52:16] And he's interrupted by a nurse who needs his help resetting an infant's

[00:52:22] dislocated elbow.

[00:52:23] And then he,

[00:52:25] so he goes back to the nursery and dives into his work as cheerfully as

[00:52:29] ever.

[00:52:30] So yeah,

[00:52:31] Dr.

[00:52:32] Nichols,

[00:52:32] a level 10 expert on masking emotions.

[00:52:35] Yeah,

[00:52:36] definitely.

[00:52:37] I kind of just got the sense that this scene was there just to remind the

[00:52:41] audience that,

[00:52:41] that Juliette has a father and this is him and he's the doctor and yeah,

[00:52:47] he's just there.

[00:52:48] And also,

[00:52:49] um,

[00:52:50] I think we see one of,

[00:52:52] um,

[00:52:53] one of the goons from judicial doing what Bernard tell them,

[00:52:56] told them to,

[00:52:57] which is just to sort of watch him.

[00:52:58] Watch him.

[00:52:59] Yeah.

[00:53:00] Yeah.

[00:53:01] so yeah,

[00:53:02] I just think that scene was there to remind us who this character is.

[00:53:07] Why they're important.

[00:53:09] Yeah.

[00:53:10] So the AD also emphasized that there is a tall slender man.

[00:53:14] We only see his back,

[00:53:14] by the way,

[00:53:15] he seems to be a janitor and he's watching Nichols and nurse Alice as they

[00:53:20] leave the cafeteria.

[00:53:21] And so nurse Alice,

[00:53:22] played by Helene Maksud.

[00:53:24] We saw that character last season.

[00:53:27] And after episode three,

[00:53:29] we talked about how it looks like she might actually be spying on,

[00:53:33] um,

[00:53:34] Dr.

[00:53:35] Nichols.

[00:53:35] Cause she was like hovering around looking through a window.

[00:53:38] So we've got a spy spying on a spy spy.

[00:53:41] Yeah.

[00:53:42] It could be,

[00:53:43] could be,

[00:53:44] I'm presuming that they replaced the cameras that were missing in there by

[00:53:47] now too.

[00:53:49] Presumably.

[00:53:49] Yeah.

[00:53:50] Yeah.

[00:53:50] Cause Nichols is a top,

[00:53:51] uh,

[00:53:52] surveillance target for sure at this point.

[00:53:55] Yeah.

[00:53:55] I,

[00:53:55] but I also,

[00:53:56] I just,

[00:53:57] nurse Alice always gives me sinister feelings for some reason.

[00:54:01] And like,

[00:54:02] I was even thinking really dark thoughts about this.

[00:54:05] Like,

[00:54:05] you know,

[00:54:05] the doctor asks the baby like,

[00:54:08] Oh wow,

[00:54:08] you have a dislocated elbow.

[00:54:09] How did you do this?

[00:54:11] Yeah.

[00:54:12] So I'm having dark thoughts about nurse Alice.

[00:54:14] And then also he doesn't,

[00:54:16] she's like,

[00:54:16] Oh,

[00:54:17] I'll hold the baby.

[00:54:17] And he holds the baby to himself.

[00:54:19] That could be because he doesn't trust her,

[00:54:21] but it could also just be to comfort himself because it's a little girl.

[00:54:24] And he was probably thinking about,

[00:54:26] we saw Mary Johns's little hats that she all knitted.

[00:54:31] She always knitted for the babies.

[00:54:33] Hmm.

[00:54:34] He was wearing one of the little hats.

[00:54:35] Nobody's getting those hats anymore.

[00:54:38] Nobody's getting those hats anymore.

[00:54:39] Oh,

[00:54:42] so speaking of sobering twists,

[00:54:45] jumping back a bit,

[00:54:47] judge Mary Meadows played by Tanya Moody is,

[00:54:49] uh,

[00:54:49] woken up earlier in the episode by the alarm.

[00:54:52] And she learns from Carl Nari Blair Mangatz,

[00:54:55] the guard at her front door about Juliet's failed cleaning.

[00:54:59] Later,

[00:54:59] she pours herself the usual liquid breakfast,

[00:55:02] a screwdriver mixed drink.

[00:55:04] But when her judicial aid,

[00:55:05] Sharon played by Taj Kandula tells her Juliet walked over the hill,

[00:55:10] Meadows changes her mind and pours the drink down the sink and grabs a glass of water instead,

[00:55:15] looking stupefied.

[00:55:17] What now Bernard?

[00:55:18] She asks the empty room.

[00:55:20] She later tells Bernard she's quit drinking today.

[00:55:22] When he shows up to talk about the shit that's hitting the fan,

[00:55:26] he's surprisingly open with Meadows as they discuss the heat tape fiasco that led to Juliet crossing the hill.

[00:55:31] Meadows says someone was going to figure the tape thing out eventually and notices Bernard is frightened.

[00:55:37] He tells her what Juliet saw,

[00:55:38] the body spilling out of the other silo,

[00:55:41] and says he's worried the same thing will happen here.

[00:55:44] Meadows asks if his beloved order,

[00:55:46] that book we saw him reading in the beginning,

[00:55:48] doesn't tell him what to do if someone walks over the hill.

[00:55:51] And he says the founders don't seem to have taken that possibility into account.

[00:55:56] He wants Meadows,

[00:55:57] who he reveals was his former shadow,

[00:56:01] to come stand behind him during his planned speech as a show of solidarity.

[00:56:05] He tries to bribe her cooperation,

[00:56:07] offering her a bigger apartment,

[00:56:09] more relics.

[00:56:10] She tells him she feels like a fraud,

[00:56:12] and pulling out a copy of the book,

[00:56:14] The Wizard of Oz.

[00:56:15] The only thing she wants is a balloon to fly away.

[00:56:18] But Meadows does show up for the speech.

[00:56:20] And after she says she will help Bernard in return,

[00:56:23] she wants a suit made with a good tape,

[00:56:25] so she can walk away and have the same chance Juliet had,

[00:56:29] and end things on her own terms.

[00:56:34] So first of all,

[00:56:35] nothing but respect for her when she tried to shut the door in Bernard's face

[00:56:38] when he showed up.

[00:56:39] Yeah.

[00:56:40] Yeah.

[00:56:42] And she says,

[00:56:43] I'd make you a drink,

[00:56:44] but I don't want you to stay that long.

[00:56:46] Also,

[00:56:47] really good acting of somebody with a ferocious hangover in that first meeting.

[00:56:55] Yeah.

[00:56:55] I mean,

[00:56:56] Meadows,

[00:56:56] I think,

[00:56:57] is one of the most sort of enigmatic characters in the whole show.

[00:57:03] You really don't get,

[00:57:05] and this is why I really enjoyed this episode,

[00:57:07] because you get a much better sense of who she is,

[00:57:10] who she was,

[00:57:14] and sort of what motivates her.

[00:57:17] When she was describing,

[00:57:18] she describes to Bernard the story of the Wizard of Oz,

[00:57:23] and I wondered when she was describing that,

[00:57:26] was she talking about herself?

[00:57:28] Was she talking about Bernard?

[00:57:30] She said she was talking about herself.

[00:57:32] Yeah.

[00:57:33] He said,

[00:57:34] you're calling me a fraud?

[00:57:34] She says,

[00:57:35] no,

[00:57:35] I'm calling myself a fraud.

[00:57:37] Yeah,

[00:57:37] but it struck me,

[00:57:38] she was also,

[00:57:38] you could also say the same thing about Bernard as well.

[00:57:41] Oh,

[00:57:41] even more so.

[00:57:42] Yeah,

[00:57:42] perhaps.

[00:57:44] Love the Wizard of Oz.

[00:57:45] Shout out,

[00:57:45] by the way,

[00:57:46] shout out to Agatha and Wicked.

[00:57:47] I,

[00:57:48] it's,

[00:57:48] it's Wizard of Oz season,

[00:57:50] apparently.

[00:57:52] Um,

[00:57:54] yeah,

[00:57:55] I,

[00:57:56] do you think that he seemed unnerved that she stopped drinking?

[00:57:59] Like,

[00:57:59] I was wondering if,

[00:58:00] you know,

[00:58:01] he's worried.

[00:58:02] I think he was surprised.

[00:58:04] Hmm.

[00:58:04] Um,

[00:58:05] I'm not sure.

[00:58:06] I'm not sure he was unnerved.

[00:58:08] I can definitely see where you're coming from when you say unnerved.

[00:58:12] Like,

[00:58:13] yeah,

[00:58:14] yeah.

[00:58:14] Yeah.

[00:58:14] I was wondering if that meant,

[00:58:16] if that made him worry that she would be more difficult,

[00:58:19] difficult to control because we know like with Gloria from last season and she was,

[00:58:23] had her quote unquote medicine,

[00:58:25] um,

[00:58:26] that it seems like Bernard thinks,

[00:58:28] Oh,

[00:58:29] drug them and keep them out of the way that potentially.

[00:58:31] Yeah.

[00:58:32] But it sounded,

[00:58:32] it also sounded like Bernard regretted the fact she,

[00:58:36] well,

[00:58:37] we didn't sound like Bernard,

[00:58:38] like basically says nobody else could shadow me.

[00:58:41] You know,

[00:58:42] I never,

[00:58:43] I never trusted anybody else.

[00:58:44] I never thought anybody else could do the job.

[00:58:48] So there's a,

[00:58:49] there's a level,

[00:58:49] there's a level of respect there that I've not seen Bernard have for anybody else,

[00:58:54] including,

[00:58:55] including sentence.

[00:58:57] Like there's a,

[00:58:58] yeah,

[00:58:59] yeah.

[00:58:59] There's a sense that,

[00:59:00] um,

[00:59:01] you know,

[00:59:01] he thinks,

[00:59:02] he thinks there was a point in time where she could have carried the weight of the

[00:59:08] responsibility that Bernard has sort of put on himself.

[00:59:13] Yeah.

[00:59:14] Yeah.

[00:59:15] I mean,

[00:59:15] he keeps asking her about a secret.

[00:59:17] She seems to have been keeping for 25 years.

[00:59:20] Presumably this has to do with what made her stop being Bernard shadow.

[00:59:23] Do you have any thoughts on what that might be about?

[00:59:26] Well,

[00:59:26] I thought the secret was,

[00:59:28] was to do with the virtual reality display in the helmets for the,

[00:59:33] for the clean.

[00:59:34] I mean,

[00:59:34] he knows about that.

[00:59:36] Yeah.

[00:59:36] Yeah.

[00:59:37] But that's what I'm saying.

[00:59:38] She,

[00:59:38] she might be the only other person in the silo in on the secret.

[00:59:41] Sure.

[00:59:42] I'm sure she knows that,

[00:59:43] but he's,

[00:59:43] she's keeping a secret from him for 25 years.

[00:59:46] He said,

[00:59:47] Oh,

[00:59:47] did he?

[00:59:49] Okay.

[00:59:50] I hadn't.

[00:59:51] No,

[00:59:52] I hadn't read it like that.

[00:59:53] Um,

[00:59:54] okay.

[00:59:55] That's,

[00:59:56] that's interesting.

[00:59:57] I have to go back and watch that again then.

[01:00:00] Yeah.

[01:00:00] He said,

[01:00:00] go ahead.

[01:00:01] Keep your secret.

[01:00:02] Um,

[01:00:02] by the way,

[01:00:03] finding out she was a shadow.

[01:00:04] It's my biggest gasp moments.

[01:00:08] So that,

[01:00:08] that's not in the,

[01:00:09] that nothing like that is in the book.

[01:00:11] No.

[01:00:11] Well,

[01:00:11] like I said,

[01:00:12] her character is not even,

[01:00:13] I mean,

[01:00:13] there was a judge,

[01:00:14] but not like a different name.

[01:00:16] Not at all.

[01:00:17] None of this stuff.

[01:00:18] Judicial plays a much bigger role in the show,

[01:00:20] which makes sense.

[01:00:21] Okay.

[01:00:23] Yeah.

[01:00:23] I mean,

[01:00:23] I think at this point,

[01:00:24] you know,

[01:00:25] obviously they are getting back into the circle of trust later in the episode.

[01:00:29] But at this point,

[01:00:30] you know,

[01:00:30] she's like,

[01:00:30] are you ordering me to come stand behind you?

[01:00:33] I like how she points out.

[01:00:34] He's like,

[01:00:34] I'd like you to be behind you.

[01:00:36] And she's like,

[01:00:36] behind you.

[01:00:37] I snorted out with laughter because of course he would put it like that.

[01:00:41] Um,

[01:00:42] but yeah,

[01:00:42] he says with the lives of 10,000 people at risk,

[01:00:45] I didn't think I'd have to order you.

[01:00:47] So I guess he did shame her a little bit with that comment.

[01:00:50] A little bit.

[01:00:51] Yeah.

[01:00:52] And yeah.

[01:00:53] And I was just gasping through this scene on the first watch because like,

[01:00:57] she knows everything.

[01:00:58] He's like,

[01:00:58] Oh my God,

[01:00:58] he's talking about the tape.

[01:00:59] Oh my God.

[01:00:59] He's talking about the other silo.

[01:01:03] But he says that he,

[01:01:05] it was a mistake not to send Juliet to the mines as soon as she stole that

[01:01:09] tape.

[01:01:10] Um,

[01:01:10] and I guess the idea behind that would be to shut her up,

[01:01:12] but isn't part of the problem,

[01:01:15] part of the reason why everyone's piecing together.

[01:01:17] The tape thing is because of that outsized reaction.

[01:01:21] So he ended up taking the tape situation and,

[01:01:24] and just,

[01:01:25] instead of just like letting it go and being like,

[01:01:27] Oh,

[01:01:27] so you had the wrong tape.

[01:01:28] He called a lot more attention to it.

[01:01:31] It's like the classic Greek tragedy.

[01:01:33] You know,

[01:01:33] you sort of,

[01:01:34] you bring on the thing you fit in,

[01:01:36] you know,

[01:01:36] there's the thing you fear in your own actions and your own overreaction,

[01:01:40] um,

[01:01:41] brings about the thing you're most worried about.

[01:01:43] Yeah,

[01:01:44] exactly.

[01:01:46] Yeah.

[01:01:46] Because even Carla,

[01:01:47] when,

[01:01:47] you know,

[01:01:48] when,

[01:01:48] um,

[01:01:49] Martha showed up,

[01:01:49] she's like,

[01:01:50] isn't that about that fricking heat tape?

[01:01:52] You know?

[01:01:53] Yeah.

[01:01:54] Uh,

[01:01:55] all right.

[01:01:56] Well,

[01:01:56] this brings us to the speech.

[01:01:58] So Bernard tells the people of the silo that Juliet died a hero.

[01:02:01] She was testing a new type of tape and miraculous advance in science.

[01:02:06] She's totally dead anyway,

[01:02:07] of course,

[01:02:08] but what an advance in the fight to reclaim the outside and,

[01:02:12] um,

[01:02:12] hecklers who we later find out were hired,

[01:02:14] shout out things like she's a traitor.

[01:02:16] She's alive and it's impossible.

[01:02:18] So the Bernard can lay those fears to rest.

[01:02:21] Meadows steps forward publicly to thank mayor Holland for this exciting

[01:02:25] development and commends him for his exemplary leadership.

[01:02:28] And she announces everyone will get five credits to celebrate,

[01:02:31] which I think giving people money shuts them up nicely.

[01:02:35] But surely interrupts to yell out the truth about the tape.

[01:02:38] A raider attempts to arrest Shirley,

[01:02:40] but Knox intercedes,

[01:02:41] says Shirley's just drunk and upset and gets Hank to vouch for her.

[01:02:45] And they say,

[01:02:46] they'll escort her home and keep an eye on her.

[01:02:48] Um,

[01:02:49] and when she storms off,

[01:02:50] Hank sends Cooper played by Matt Gomez,

[01:02:52] Hidaka to follow her.

[01:02:55] So what did you think of the speech?

[01:02:57] I did that.

[01:02:59] The speech is the bit of the episode that made me gasp.

[01:03:02] Cause it's like,

[01:03:02] you Bernard,

[01:03:04] you brilliant,

[01:03:06] you brilliant bastard.

[01:03:08] That's amazing.

[01:03:10] Cause I didn't,

[01:03:11] I didn't know what,

[01:03:12] I didn't know what Bernard was going to say.

[01:03:14] And that's like,

[01:03:15] you know what?

[01:03:16] That story's crap,

[01:03:19] but it kind of makes,

[01:03:20] but it,

[01:03:20] it hangs together.

[01:03:21] It makes sense.

[01:03:22] It's like what Meadows said later on.

[01:03:25] It did what it needed.

[01:03:27] It was ridiculous,

[01:03:29] but it did what he needed it to do in the moment.

[01:03:32] Yeah.

[01:03:32] And it's like,

[01:03:33] yeah,

[01:03:35] actually I underestimated you,

[01:03:37] Bernard.

[01:03:38] You're actually a lot better at this political stuff than,

[01:03:41] than even you thought you were.

[01:03:44] Do you think it,

[01:03:45] it worked or do you think Shirley disrupted that?

[01:03:48] Well,

[01:03:49] it's kind of like Bernard says,

[01:03:51] um,

[01:03:52] to Sims later on,

[01:03:53] it probably bought them some time.

[01:03:55] No more than that.

[01:03:57] But yeah,

[01:03:58] you know,

[01:03:58] they're kind of in the situation where you just have to get from one

[01:04:02] day to the next.

[01:04:04] Mm-hmm.

[01:04:05] I was thinking,

[01:04:06] by the way,

[01:04:06] it's funny that we rarely use Bernard's last name,

[01:04:09] both us and we rarely use it because the show rarely uses it.

[01:04:13] But for the other characters,

[01:04:14] we're often referring to them by their last names.

[01:04:16] And it's really funny because,

[01:04:17] um,

[01:04:18] Bernard,

[01:04:19] it's almost like Bernard's trying to cultivate this cozy personality.

[01:04:23] Yeah.

[01:04:24] You know,

[01:04:25] like,

[01:04:25] Oh,

[01:04:25] I'm just everybody's friend.

[01:04:27] Nothing,

[01:04:28] dude,

[01:04:28] nothing nefarious here.

[01:04:30] Yeah.

[01:04:30] And like,

[01:04:31] the thing is when he's,

[01:04:32] when he's giving the speech,

[01:04:33] he is a little bit awkward at the start,

[01:04:36] but he sort of,

[01:04:37] it's a really good bit of acting by Tim Robbins.

[01:04:40] Cause Bernard is not good at public speaking,

[01:04:42] but he kind of,

[01:04:43] he kind of gets into it and having the fake hecklers,

[01:04:47] he uses them really well as a prop.

[01:04:50] Yeah.

[01:04:50] Yeah.

[01:04:51] I agree.

[01:04:53] Oh yeah.

[01:04:53] I loved,

[01:04:54] by the way,

[01:04:54] we had this,

[01:04:55] I am Spartacus moment where the Raider asked Shirley,

[01:04:57] what is your name?

[01:04:58] She says,

[01:04:58] Juliet Nichols.

[01:04:59] And I expected other people to be like,

[01:05:01] I am Juliet Nichols.

[01:05:03] It's like,

[01:05:04] Shirley,

[01:05:05] Shirley,

[01:05:06] I love you,

[01:05:06] but just for once,

[01:05:10] get out of your own way,

[01:05:12] please.

[01:05:14] I also loved Knox's reaction to the Raider.

[01:05:17] He's like,

[01:05:18] Oh,

[01:05:18] is this your first time below one 20?

[01:05:20] Like,

[01:05:20] like you're not from around these parts.

[01:05:22] Don't you know who I am?

[01:05:27] Knox again,

[01:05:29] he is actually helping in that moment,

[01:05:31] but he's doing it in such an obnoxious way that it's just going to piss Shirley off even more.

[01:05:35] And he doesn't seem to see that.

[01:05:38] Yeah.

[01:05:38] But I think he's less concerned with Shirley in that moment than that.

[01:05:43] Then,

[01:05:43] then,

[01:05:43] then did not start a fight.

[01:05:45] Yeah.

[01:05:46] He better start getting more concerned with Shirley.

[01:05:49] And also,

[01:05:50] I like,

[01:05:51] um,

[01:05:52] Knox going to Hank.

[01:05:53] I owe you,

[01:05:54] I owe you one.

[01:05:55] And Hank's going,

[01:05:56] you both do.

[01:05:57] Yeah.

[01:05:58] Yeah.

[01:05:59] Hank's fed up this episode.

[01:06:00] He's having a rough day.

[01:06:02] Hank has just totally run out of F's to give at this point.

[01:06:06] I don't blame him.

[01:06:08] Um,

[01:06:09] and the Raider again,

[01:06:11] threatens the minds on Shirley.

[01:06:12] So the minds,

[01:06:14] the minds,

[01:06:14] the minds.

[01:06:15] I think we ought to,

[01:06:16] I think we ought to go for listener feedback.

[01:06:18] We ought to get a game of bingo going.

[01:06:20] How many times do they mention the minds in an episode?

[01:06:24] How many times does a Pez dispenser turn up for episode?

[01:06:28] Well,

[01:06:29] so far only once,

[01:06:30] right?

[01:06:30] So far only once.

[01:06:31] Yeah.

[01:06:32] Um,

[01:06:33] I do wonder if the hired hecklers might turn out to be a loose end.

[01:06:37] Although like,

[01:06:38] I guess on the one hand,

[01:06:39] they're hoping for more of this kind of work because they got paid and they also got released from detention apparently.

[01:06:46] And on the other hand,

[01:06:48] either.

[01:06:48] Yeah,

[01:06:49] let's see.

[01:06:49] I don't know how,

[01:06:50] how afraid they are of Sims,

[01:06:51] but that seems like a good deterrent if he tells you it'll be worse than detention if you talk.

[01:06:56] Yeah.

[01:06:58] So speaking of Sims,

[01:06:59] we get another shadowy solicitation.

[01:07:01] Sims and Bernard debrief in the relic room as Bernard contemplates the Pez dispenser.

[01:07:08] You just mentioned that kicked off so much of this trouble last season.

[01:07:11] He knows what it is.

[01:07:13] It wasn't important,

[01:07:14] but it is now.

[01:07:16] Sims says all is calm.

[01:07:18] Bernard's play was successful and the watchers are watching,

[01:07:20] but Sims believes he could help more if he were Bernard's shadow.

[01:07:24] Bernard says he needs Sims right where he is because the crisis isn't over and he better get home before he breaks his own curfew.

[01:07:32] So yeah,

[01:07:34] funny that Bernard does know what a Pez dispenser is.

[01:07:37] How do you think he knows that?

[01:07:39] Maybe it's in the order.

[01:07:41] Like maybe.

[01:07:43] Yeah.

[01:07:43] I don't know,

[01:07:45] but it seems like a funny thing to include.

[01:07:47] Yeah.

[01:07:48] He knows it somehow.

[01:07:49] Does he know what a Pez dispenser is or does he just think he knows what a Pez dispenser is?

[01:07:54] Well,

[01:07:54] I wonder also like,

[01:07:56] so we know,

[01:07:57] you know,

[01:07:57] there are some relic pieces of media.

[01:08:00] Like we saw Meadows with that,

[01:08:02] with that.

[01:08:04] Etchersketch.

[01:08:05] Oh,

[01:08:05] with Etchersketch.

[01:08:06] Sure.

[01:08:06] But I was going to say the Wizard of Oz book.

[01:08:08] So maybe there's like old movies or commercials or something.

[01:08:11] Well,

[01:08:11] yeah,

[01:08:12] where somebody's actually using a Pez dispenser as a Pez dispenser.

[01:08:15] Yeah,

[01:08:16] maybe,

[01:08:16] maybe.

[01:08:19] But yeah,

[01:08:20] so Sims,

[01:08:21] he asked Bernard,

[01:08:22] was it important?

[01:08:23] This kind of implies to me that he has some knowledge.

[01:08:26] He knows Bernard has some knowledge of the before times.

[01:08:30] Yeah,

[01:08:31] it does.

[01:08:34] Yeah,

[01:08:34] it does.

[01:08:36] Do you,

[01:08:38] do you think that Bernard ever intends to actually take on Sims as his shadow?

[01:08:43] What do you think he's going to do with the shadow thing?

[01:08:45] No,

[01:08:45] I mean,

[01:08:45] I don't know if Bernard,

[01:08:47] you'll have to take somebody on,

[01:08:49] but he's never going to be Sims.

[01:08:51] He doesn't see Sims as being up to the challenge.

[01:08:54] He sees Sims as being very good at what he does,

[01:08:57] but basically just as hired,

[01:08:59] you know,

[01:09:00] just hired muscle.

[01:09:01] Right.

[01:09:02] Basically.

[01:09:03] And so I,

[01:09:04] I still come back to what I said in the preview.

[01:09:07] If you had to tell me,

[01:09:09] if you had to ask me one thing that I absolutely think is going to happen this

[01:09:12] series,

[01:09:13] this series,

[01:09:14] either Bernard is going to kill Sims or Sims is going to kill Bernard.

[01:09:16] Hmm.

[01:09:17] Um,

[01:09:18] and yeah,

[01:09:19] I'm more and more convinced that this is true.

[01:09:22] Cause they're just,

[01:09:23] they just seem to be going in like different directions.

[01:09:26] And there's this whole scene that I think we're going to talk about next

[01:09:29] between Sims and his,

[01:09:31] his other half is why,

[01:09:34] um,

[01:09:35] that's a really interesting little scene.

[01:09:37] Yeah.

[01:09:38] Yeah.

[01:09:39] Uh,

[01:09:39] well,

[01:09:39] so I was just thinking,

[01:09:40] um,

[01:09:41] I wonder,

[01:09:42] first of all,

[01:09:42] yes,

[01:09:42] Sims does not have the right disposition.

[01:09:44] We've seen him lose his temper too many times.

[01:09:46] And we,

[01:09:46] and this needs to be someone cool headed in situations like this.

[01:09:50] I do wonder why he doesn't consider Billings.

[01:09:54] Maybe he doesn't know him well enough.

[01:09:56] Um,

[01:09:57] do you think that he's trying to get Mary Meadows to be his,

[01:10:02] uh,

[01:10:03] shadow again?

[01:10:03] Do you think?

[01:10:04] Yes.

[01:10:04] Yeah,

[01:10:05] I do.

[01:10:07] Or is he pulling a banana?

[01:10:09] And like gaslighting her in some way.

[01:10:12] Well,

[01:10:13] I think there's more to their relationship than just mentor and mentee.

[01:10:18] I think,

[01:10:19] I think the way that those two conversations were staged,

[01:10:23] like I said,

[01:10:24] I wouldn't,

[01:10:24] I think there was a little bit of a freestyle.

[01:10:27] I think they could have been like romantically involved at some point in

[01:10:32] the past.

[01:10:33] Hmm.

[01:10:34] Yeah.

[01:10:34] They just seem to have a more intimate relationship.

[01:10:37] Yeah.

[01:10:38] Yeah.

[01:10:38] And then Julia had with Knox or that.

[01:10:44] Maybe it's because like,

[01:10:46] just,

[01:10:46] you know,

[01:10:47] we know that as his shadow,

[01:10:50] she was privy to some of the secrets that he is privy to.

[01:10:54] And presumably they're the only two who know certain things.

[01:10:59] Like we know there's a janitor's closet and they know more than most people,

[01:11:02] but presumably these are the only two who know about the other silos,

[01:11:07] I guess,

[01:11:08] about things like that.

[01:11:09] Quite possibly.

[01:11:11] And on his way home,

[01:11:13] Bernard sees some new graffiti,

[01:11:15] JL in a circle,

[01:11:17] which stands for Juliet lives.

[01:11:19] So,

[01:11:19] that was all very Hunger Games.

[01:11:22] That was very strong Hunger Games vibes.

[01:11:26] I guess,

[01:11:27] I guess stuff like that is,

[01:11:28] does happen in real lives.

[01:11:30] Yeah.

[01:11:31] Uh,

[01:11:31] so yeah,

[01:11:32] as you were talking about that scene back at home,

[01:11:34] Sims talks to his wife,

[01:11:35] Camille,

[01:11:36] played by Alexandria.

[01:11:37] Yeah.

[01:11:38] Played by Alexandria Riley.

[01:11:40] And,

[01:11:41] um,

[01:11:41] he notes that Bernard didn't seem as worried as he would expect about,

[01:11:46] you know,

[01:11:46] not having enough help.

[01:11:47] So he's wondering if Bernard and judge Meadows are working together since

[01:11:51] they're both surprised since he and his wife are both surprised that

[01:11:55] Meadows even showed up to the speech,

[01:11:57] let alone spoke up and Sims noted the looks,

[01:12:00] the two exchanged.

[01:12:02] So I guess he does not know that Meadows was,

[01:12:07] Bernard's former shadow.

[01:12:08] Do you think it's always a secret when the head of IT has a shadow?

[01:12:12] I would assume so.

[01:12:13] Yeah.

[01:12:14] And you only find out when it's like,

[01:12:16] by the way,

[01:12:18] I mean,

[01:12:18] I guess you would have to set it up,

[01:12:19] right?

[01:12:19] To be like,

[01:12:20] if something happens to me,

[01:12:21] this is the next in line.

[01:12:22] Yeah,

[01:12:23] I guess.

[01:12:24] Hmm.

[01:12:25] I guess.

[01:12:26] Um,

[01:12:26] but you,

[01:12:27] but you might want to,

[01:12:28] but maybe that's,

[01:12:30] maybe that's like none of judicial business.

[01:12:32] Cause like all of these different departments within the silo do seem to be

[01:12:36] sort of quite,

[01:12:38] you know,

[01:12:39] do seem to be worlds unto themselves to a large extent.

[01:12:44] Um,

[01:12:45] and yeah,

[01:12:46] um,

[01:12:47] Camille just,

[01:12:48] it's just me or is Camille like playing Sims like a piano in this scene?

[01:12:52] It's just like,

[01:12:53] she does seem to be pushing him about this whole shadow thing.

[01:12:56] Like it seems like the drives coming from her,

[01:12:58] especially.

[01:12:59] Yeah.

[01:12:59] It's,

[01:13:00] it's all very lady Macbeth.

[01:13:02] Yeah.

[01:13:03] You're not wrong.

[01:13:04] Cause you know,

[01:13:05] I always said I quite like Camille,

[01:13:06] but I'm also,

[01:13:07] I'm like back down lady.

[01:13:08] Like this is not going to go well.

[01:13:11] Um,

[01:13:11] I also found it interesting that they had this conversation where she says

[01:13:14] Meadows didn't even know who she,

[01:13:16] that she was alive when Camille worked in judicial.

[01:13:19] It feels like a conversation these two would have had before.

[01:13:22] It does.

[01:13:23] It does.

[01:13:24] fine.

[01:13:24] Whatever,

[01:13:25] whatever exposition.

[01:13:26] Here we go.

[01:13:26] It's fine.

[01:13:27] Um,

[01:13:28] I did notice Sims wouldn't even take the beer.

[01:13:32] She offered him,

[01:13:33] even when he was planning on killing Marms,

[01:13:35] he had no trouble drinking his beer.

[01:13:38] And now he's like,

[01:13:39] so shook that he's like,

[01:13:40] no,

[01:13:41] no,

[01:13:41] no,

[01:13:41] no.

[01:13:42] So you just sit here and think.

[01:13:44] Yeah.

[01:13:44] It's weird.

[01:13:45] It's weird.

[01:13:46] Hmm.

[01:13:47] Also,

[01:13:47] I hope we get to meet the,

[01:13:49] I hope we get to meet the brewer at some point.

[01:13:52] No,

[01:13:52] yeah.

[01:13:54] Well,

[01:13:54] yeah,

[01:13:54] I guess that's,

[01:13:55] that's a really,

[01:13:56] people do it in their houses.

[01:13:57] So I guess it's a relatively easy.

[01:13:58] No,

[01:13:59] no,

[01:13:59] no.

[01:13:59] But if you look,

[01:13:59] they all come and they all come in the same bottles.

[01:14:02] So I,

[01:14:03] I think,

[01:14:03] I think there is a brewery somewhere in the silo.

[01:14:06] I mean,

[01:14:07] yeah,

[01:14:07] no,

[01:14:07] it must be brewed in the silo for sure.

[01:14:09] Yeah.

[01:14:10] No,

[01:14:10] no,

[01:14:10] no,

[01:14:11] but I don't think,

[01:14:12] I don't think it's like home brew.

[01:14:13] Right.

[01:14:13] No,

[01:14:13] no,

[01:14:13] no.

[01:14:14] I understand what you're saying.

[01:14:15] I understand what you're saying.

[01:14:16] I'm just saying that that is out of the things,

[01:14:19] um,

[01:14:19] that they can make in the silo deep underground.

[01:14:22] That's probably one of the easier things.

[01:14:23] Yeah,

[01:14:24] it is.

[01:14:24] Yeah.

[01:14:26] Um,

[01:14:27] okay.

[01:14:27] So this brings us up to the end of the episode when we're going to talk about

[01:14:31] two final interactions.

[01:14:33] Uh,

[01:14:33] first let's,

[01:14:34] let's,

[01:14:34] uh,

[01:14:35] switch back to Shirley who is holding another meeting in the graffiti tunnel.

[01:14:39] And she says they should recruit people from the mids,

[01:14:42] teach them the hand signals they use to communicate.

[01:14:45] So we should remember hand signals.

[01:14:47] We're probably going to see that.

[01:14:48] Um,

[01:14:49] Cooper interrupts them,

[01:14:50] tells them Knox sent him to follow Shirley,

[01:14:52] but he wants to join them.

[01:14:54] He says he will lie to Knox for them for Juliet,

[01:14:57] who kept him alive.

[01:14:58] That time she punched him in the face when he wasn't following.

[01:15:03] Shirley starts to tell Cooper about the tape.

[01:15:06] When Martha walks up,

[01:15:07] having followed Cooper there,

[01:15:08] she tells Shirley,

[01:15:10] she doesn't know shit.

[01:15:11] They should stop riling things up before they get themselves killed because

[01:15:15] they're all sucky at being resistance operatives.

[01:15:18] Shirley asks Martha,

[01:15:19] if she will join them in looking for more people interested in the truth and

[01:15:23] demanding answers,

[01:15:24] which Martha says they won't get.

[01:15:26] And when it comes to a fight,

[01:15:28] the raiders and deputies have all the weapons.

[01:15:30] Shirley thinks they can win some of them over to their side.

[01:15:34] Martha tells them about the jail graffiti.

[01:15:37] She heard about on the radio.

[01:15:38] She doesn't think it's literally true.

[01:15:41] The Juliet lives,

[01:15:42] but their hunt for the truth in Juliet's name keeps her memory and spirits

[01:15:47] alive.

[01:15:48] So kind of seems like they're accidentally reforming the flame keepers here.

[01:15:53] Yes.

[01:15:54] Without sort of,

[01:15:54] without sort of,

[01:15:56] understanding the continuity.

[01:15:58] Yeah.

[01:15:58] Mm-hmm.

[01:15:59] And also,

[01:15:59] I love Walker's line.

[01:16:02] So,

[01:16:03] Shirley asks her,

[01:16:04] how did you find us?

[01:16:05] I just followed this genius.

[01:16:07] Because she's right.

[01:16:08] They are no good as like undercover resistance operatives.

[01:16:14] And yeah,

[01:16:15] if this rebellion is going to succeed,

[01:16:17] it's going to need somebody other than Shirley to run it.

[01:16:22] And that's not a strike against Shirley.

[01:16:25] No.

[01:16:25] She's just not built for this.

[01:16:27] Yeah.

[01:16:28] She's,

[01:16:28] it's the same as Sims,

[01:16:29] you know.

[01:16:30] Well,

[01:16:30] I was going to,

[01:16:31] I will say Shirley's heart is more in the right place.

[01:16:33] It seems as hard,

[01:16:34] but they're both just a little too hot headed.

[01:16:35] Yeah.

[01:16:36] Yeah.

[01:16:37] Um,

[01:16:38] so Cooper was Juliet's shadow and Juliet was Knox's shadow.

[01:16:42] Do we think Cooper is Knox's shadow now?

[01:16:44] Because Knox is bossing him around.

[01:16:46] I mean,

[01:16:46] but I guess Knox bosses.

[01:16:47] Yeah.

[01:16:47] Knox bosses everybody around.

[01:16:49] I hope that Cooper is Knox's shadow.

[01:16:52] Cause.

[01:16:53] He seems a little bit inexperienced to beat Knox's shadow.

[01:16:57] Yeah.

[01:16:58] Okay.

[01:16:58] But,

[01:16:58] but he was the one training to take over the,

[01:17:01] um,

[01:17:02] you know,

[01:17:03] the maintenance of the,

[01:17:04] what's it called?

[01:17:05] The,

[01:17:06] um,

[01:17:06] generator.

[01:17:08] Hmm.

[01:17:09] Do you think that Knox accidentally radicalized Cooper by getting him to listen to their rhetoric?

[01:17:16] Because he had him follow her.

[01:17:19] He was listening to what she said.

[01:17:21] Yeah,

[01:17:22] maybe.

[01:17:23] Um,

[01:17:24] yeah,

[01:17:25] maybe,

[01:17:26] but it just,

[01:17:29] I get where you're coming from Shirley,

[01:17:30] but this is not a very convincing plan.

[01:17:33] Well,

[01:17:34] yeah.

[01:17:34] Yeah.

[01:17:35] Yeah.

[01:17:36] It's good thing Martha gets involved because she's,

[01:17:39] she's a bit,

[01:17:39] she thinks,

[01:17:41] uh,

[01:17:41] thinks through a bit more.

[01:17:42] Yeah.

[01:17:44] So we,

[01:17:45] this brings us to our final reaction.

[01:17:46] Uh,

[01:17:46] interaction of the episode.

[01:17:48] Um,

[01:17:48] Meadows says she went to the speech to watch Bernard fail,

[01:17:51] but his performance today made her doubt,

[01:17:54] her doubts about him and her doubts about his political prowess.

[01:17:57] He says he gave the people a reason to believe in a miracle.

[01:18:01] And it's also harder for someone to tell a different story now.

[01:18:05] And worst case scenario,

[01:18:06] there's always brute force.

[01:18:08] Meadows points out that giving people something to believe in works much better.

[01:18:12] He says,

[01:18:13] that's why he needs her.

[01:18:14] Tells her about the new jail graffiti propping up.

[01:18:18] And then Meadows pours out the rest of her booze,

[01:18:21] says that for the first time in 25 years,

[01:18:23] she wants a clear head.

[01:18:25] And she says that she will help him for the heat tape that she asked for,

[01:18:31] because she wants her shot outside as well.

[01:18:34] Fine.

[01:18:35] The look on,

[01:18:36] the look on Bernard's face when she says she wants to go outside.

[01:18:40] It's just like,

[01:18:41] What?

[01:18:43] Why?

[01:18:44] You don't like living?

[01:18:46] Yeah.

[01:18:47] Yeah.

[01:18:48] I mean,

[01:18:49] yeah.

[01:18:50] Also,

[01:18:50] I,

[01:18:51] I wonder whether,

[01:18:52] I wonder whether they're going to show it.

[01:18:53] Cause poor judge Meadows is going to go through some hellacious withdrawal.

[01:18:58] We'd think.

[01:18:59] I mean,

[01:19:00] you know,

[01:19:00] had like a major,

[01:19:02] uh,

[01:19:03] alcohol problem for 25 years.

[01:19:05] Yeah.

[01:19:06] Yeah.

[01:19:07] Yeah.

[01:19:07] As you said,

[01:19:08] she did look a little rough,

[01:19:09] but yeah,

[01:19:09] maybe she's going to have some sleepless nights.

[01:19:12] Um,

[01:19:13] they did show us that she,

[01:19:15] or is it going to magically disappear?

[01:19:17] Just like,

[01:19:18] yeah.

[01:19:18] Like Walker's agoraphobia.

[01:19:19] Yeah.

[01:19:20] Agoraphobia.

[01:19:21] Yeah.

[01:19:21] Um,

[01:19:22] but they do show us the,

[01:19:23] how smart and observant she is because like,

[01:19:25] for instance,

[01:19:26] she realized about the hecklers.

[01:19:27] She was like,

[01:19:28] Oh,

[01:19:28] those were hired.

[01:19:28] Right.

[01:19:29] He's like,

[01:19:29] Oh yeah,

[01:19:29] of course,

[01:19:30] you know,

[01:19:32] um,

[01:19:33] she calls the,

[01:19:34] yeah,

[01:19:34] as you said,

[01:19:34] the tape story ludicrous,

[01:19:36] but at the best he could do given the situation.

[01:19:38] Um,

[01:19:40] and she,

[01:19:41] yeah,

[01:19:41] she asks him,

[01:19:43] do you want my help?

[01:19:44] Because I'm the only other person who's been in that vault.

[01:19:46] So that confirms that.

[01:19:48] And he says,

[01:19:49] interestingly,

[01:19:50] well,

[01:19:51] it's because you're the only other person that I will listen to.

[01:19:54] So it shows at least he's telling her she's the only person he has respect for.

[01:19:58] But then again,

[01:19:59] Bernard can smile sweetly and lie straight to your face.

[01:20:03] So it's true.

[01:20:03] He can,

[01:20:04] he can,

[01:20:05] that that's true,

[01:20:05] but I don't think he was lying then.

[01:20:08] Then.

[01:20:09] Yeah,

[01:20:09] no,

[01:20:09] I agree.

[01:20:10] I mean,

[01:20:10] cause there's probably a reason he chose her as his shadow in the first place.

[01:20:14] Yeah.

[01:20:15] Yeah.

[01:20:15] I do like this book edition because it's also,

[01:20:18] we have the same,

[01:20:19] I mean,

[01:20:19] sorry,

[01:20:19] the show edition,

[01:20:20] because we do have the same thing in the book where Bernard is at this point,

[01:20:25] like things are hitting the fan.

[01:20:26] He's like,

[01:20:26] Oh shit,

[01:20:27] I really do need a shadow.

[01:20:28] I really do need a shadow because,

[01:20:29] you know,

[01:20:30] we need to have somebody else that can bear a bit of the burden.

[01:20:34] Right.

[01:20:34] And,

[01:20:34] but also if something happens to him,

[01:20:36] there needs to be continuity.

[01:20:37] Yeah.

[01:20:38] He needs to not leave,

[01:20:39] you know,

[01:20:40] the silo rudder list without someone who knows the things that he knows.

[01:20:45] So I like this.

[01:20:46] Yeah.

[01:20:47] And it doesn't,

[01:20:48] they don't explain in the book why he doesn't have a shadow at this point,

[01:20:52] other than just like vaguely,

[01:20:54] he can't trust anyone,

[01:20:55] you know,

[01:20:56] which,

[01:20:56] which I buy into.

[01:20:58] Bernard is not a trusting person,

[01:21:00] but I do like this edition.

[01:21:01] Um,

[01:21:02] it also gives a way for them to talk about things out loud,

[01:21:05] which is important in a TV show versus a book.

[01:21:08] Yeah.

[01:21:09] Yeah.

[01:21:09] And then that vault,

[01:21:11] of course,

[01:21:11] that they're talking about is what we,

[01:21:13] the room we saw him in at the start of the episode and the door that

[01:21:17] solo says he'd killed Juliet for trying to open in the other silo.

[01:21:21] So interesting.

[01:21:23] So it means solo is in there with that book and who knows what else as well

[01:21:28] in the monitor and whatever.

[01:21:31] I think next week,

[01:21:32] the story is going to start switching back and forth between the two

[01:21:35] locations,

[01:21:36] right?

[01:21:36] Yeah,

[01:21:37] I think so.

[01:21:38] I think that's what they said at Comic-Con.

[01:21:40] Yeah.

[01:21:41] But there better be some Lucas next week.

[01:21:43] Okay.

[01:21:45] You got through,

[01:21:46] you got through almost the entire episode.

[01:21:50] I mean,

[01:21:51] come on.

[01:21:51] I want an opening scene in the minds with,

[01:21:54] or,

[01:21:55] you know,

[01:21:55] uh,

[01:21:56] with Lucas and Patrick and Danny and they form.

[01:21:59] It's like a nerds club down there.

[01:22:02] They're making hacking plans.

[01:22:05] They're all computer people.

[01:22:06] This,

[01:22:06] this idea of like them,

[01:22:07] them as a little like a palette group.

[01:22:11] Sure.

[01:22:15] There's a character who works in the minds in the book.

[01:22:17] It's called Rafe.

[01:22:18] And I would love if Rafe showed up and he can be their fourth in their

[01:22:21] quartet.

[01:22:23] Do you have any more thoughts about this episode?

[01:22:30] No,

[01:22:31] like I say,

[01:22:32] it was a really strong episode.

[01:22:34] Just slightly let down by one.

[01:22:38] The agoraphobia thing.

[01:22:39] Yes.

[01:22:40] Yeah.

[01:22:41] Yeah.

[01:22:42] So yeah,

[01:22:42] same.

[01:22:42] I hope they handle the alcohol differently because people need to know you

[01:22:46] don't just like magically get over things overnight.

[01:22:49] Yeah.

[01:22:51] Well,

[01:22:51] we will be back here every week to track that progress and break down each

[01:22:56] episode as they're released.

[01:22:58] If you enjoyed listening to this and feel like you got something out of it,

[01:23:02] the best ways that you can help us are to share this episode with other

[01:23:05] people you think might be interested who are into silo or should be into

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[01:23:10] And you can also really help us out by leaving a positive review wherever

[01:23:14] you're listening.

[01:23:15] It it's a small thing to do,

[01:23:17] but you can't believe how much it helps us actually.

[01:23:21] We also,

[01:23:21] we want to hear your thoughts and theories about the show.

[01:23:24] Um,

[01:23:25] we're going to be doing periodic mailbag episodes to discuss what the

[01:23:29] community is thinking.

[01:23:30] So please do send your thoughts to we'll shift us podcast at gmail.com.

[01:23:36] You'll find that link in the show notes.

[01:23:37] And of course you can find us also on discord and social media.

[01:23:41] Um,

[01:23:42] the discord has dedicated forums with separate chats per episode and book

[01:23:47] spoiler discussion as well as separate chat for that.

[01:23:50] And,

[01:23:51] um,

[01:23:52] Luke now responds when you tag him on discord.

[01:23:55] Yeah.

[01:23:55] I'm trying to be,

[01:23:56] I'm,

[01:23:57] I've turned over a new leaf.

[01:23:59] I'm reformed.

[01:24:01] Yeah.

[01:24:02] Um,

[01:24:04] yeah.

[01:24:04] So in your feedback,

[01:24:05] by the way,

[01:24:05] you can send books,

[01:24:06] spoiler feedback,

[01:24:06] but then I will only discuss that in the spoiler cast episodes because we

[01:24:10] are keeping the sanctity of Luke and other non readers knowledge about

[01:24:15] this story sacred.

[01:24:18] And as I said,

[01:24:19] this week's spoiler cast discussion is going to be about the silo system and

[01:24:23] the books at its backbone.

[01:24:24] So there we can talk more openly about that book,

[01:24:27] the order that we saw in this episode and how it relates to the pact and the

[01:24:30] rest,

[01:24:31] um,

[01:24:32] super cast and Patreon subscribers.

[01:24:33] We'll have access to that.

[01:24:35] And also breakdowns of the silo books and short stories,

[01:24:38] the season one spoilery rewatch episodes,

[01:24:41] extra interviews with Hugh Howey with full book spoilers and weekly spoiler

[01:24:44] cast and show guides as this season continues.

[01:24:47] And I would like to shout out a big thank you and welcome to two new silo

[01:24:52] sins this week,

[01:24:53] Adrian M and Tom P.

[01:24:55] Thank you so much.

[01:24:56] Can't wait to hear your thoughts and theories as we go forward.

[01:24:59] Um,

[01:25:00] there's also by the way,

[01:25:01] a new season pass option that allows those listeners who aren't interested in

[01:25:06] the regular subscription to just get those things that I list above for a

[01:25:11] one-time fee.

[01:25:12] Um,

[01:25:13] there's a season one in books or just season two or a combo option of the

[01:25:17] available.

[01:25:18] Um,

[01:25:18] subscribers though do get access to all of that plus additional episode like

[01:25:22] extra,

[01:25:23] extra seasonal specials.

[01:25:25] And we're already discussing our,

[01:25:26] uh,

[01:25:27] winter holiday special plus additional Howie book breakdowns,

[01:25:31] doom book breakdowns and other stuff.

[01:25:33] So you'll find links in the show notes with all that information.

[01:25:37] Um,

[01:25:38] so yeah,

[01:25:38] we've already discussed our,

[01:25:40] our,

[01:25:40] uh,

[01:25:40] winter holiday plans.

[01:25:41] Do you want to tell the people what that is?

[01:25:43] Yeah.

[01:25:44] So last year we did all the adaptations,

[01:25:47] of it's a wonderful life.

[01:25:49] Uh,

[01:25:49] if you subscribe to the podcast anywhere,

[01:25:51] that should be in your feed.

[01:25:53] If you want to go back and listen to it.

[01:25:55] And in particular,

[01:25:56] you know,

[01:25:57] share my trauma over the,

[01:25:58] the abomination that was Clarence.

[01:26:01] Um,

[01:26:02] that's a 1990 movie ever.

[01:26:04] Yeah.

[01:26:05] the most 1990 movie ever.

[01:26:07] Um,

[01:26:07] so this year we are doing the various adaptations,

[01:26:11] both the,

[01:26:12] both the more book faithful adaptations and the somewhat looser adaptations of it's a Christmas,

[01:26:20] uh,

[01:26:21] a Christmas,

[01:26:22] a Christmas carol.

[01:26:25] Yeah.

[01:26:26] Yeah.

[01:26:27] Yeah.

[01:26:28] It's a Christmas.

[01:26:28] Yeah.

[01:26:29] it's a Christmas carol,

[01:26:31] which is one of my favorite,

[01:26:33] um,

[01:26:34] not just one of my favorite Christmas books,

[01:26:36] but one of my favorite books,

[01:26:38] um,

[01:26:38] full stop.

[01:26:39] So I'm really looking forward to that.

[01:26:41] Yeah.

[01:26:42] So yeah,

[01:26:42] we're doing a whole ton of movies.

[01:26:44] So we are already planning and working on that.

[01:26:47] And there's going to be two public episodes.

[01:26:49] So one,

[01:26:50] as you said,

[01:26:50] that's just like this more straight up adaptations and another that's the twists.

[01:26:56] And there's going to be a,

[01:26:57] another third episode for subscribers.

[01:27:00] That's about,

[01:27:01] uh,

[01:27:01] with an audio drama of the story that Dickens did before that,

[01:27:05] um,

[01:27:06] that was kind of like a practice run for a Christmas carol.

[01:27:10] But before that starting,

[01:27:12] yeah,

[01:27:12] has already started last week as this is released.

[01:27:15] Um,

[01:27:16] David is leading weekly breakdowns of doom prophecy in the Lord hounds feed,

[01:27:20] which I'm joining him for.

[01:27:21] And there is pre doom prophecy coverage also ramping up to that on the Lord hounds

[01:27:26] feed.

[01:27:26] And you'll also find some here actually Luke,

[01:27:29] um,

[01:27:30] David and I recently recorded for the first part of our dune book breakdown.

[01:27:35] And we talked a lot about the doom prophecy during that recording.

[01:27:39] So I might,

[01:27:39] I'm just pulling that out and leaving that as a preview episode along with a

[01:27:44] breakdown of a,

[01:27:46] uh,

[01:27:47] it's 40 pages.

[01:27:48] Is that a novella or a short story?

[01:27:50] But anyway,

[01:27:50] of a 40 page story that,

[01:27:53] um,

[01:27:53] the last written piece of book material leading into the timeline of dune

[01:27:59] prophecy.

[01:27:59] So,

[01:28:00] so check both the Lord hounds feed and this feed for dune stuff.

[01:28:05] Also Luke and I,

[01:28:06] you and I are going to be releasing some doom book breakdown while we're doing

[01:28:11] silo,

[01:28:12] just giving a taste.

[01:28:13] We'll be continuing that series after silo is over.

[01:28:19] Yeah.

[01:28:20] And also lots of other stuff happening on the Lord hounds feed.

[01:28:24] Of course,

[01:28:24] uh,

[01:28:25] there was just a DC all in comics episode released as this is being recorded.

[01:28:29] Um,

[01:28:30] the Agatha wrap up coven personality test.

[01:28:33] Of course also do check out my podcast,

[01:28:36] the star Wars Canon timeline podcast,

[01:28:38] which is a,

[01:28:40] an experiment in form where I'm trying to do the entire star Wars Canon timeline

[01:28:46] in timeline order.

[01:28:47] So wish me luck and follow along with my journey.

[01:28:51] Um,

[01:28:52] we've got ramblers rising.

[01:28:53] So radioactive ramblings is doing red rising series,

[01:28:57] a few chapters at a time.

[01:28:58] Uh,

[01:28:59] nevermind the music is,

[01:29:01] uh,

[01:29:01] combining music with psychology and how they interact.

[01:29:05] And Luke,

[01:29:05] tell us about it.

[01:29:06] Could be said.

[01:29:07] So it could be said as a podcast.

[01:29:09] I do with two friends from university.

[01:29:12] We're calling in Simon Alvey.

[01:29:14] We sort of,

[01:29:15] we don't have a regular schedule of the search.

[01:29:17] We just sort of pod as we build up,

[01:29:20] um,

[01:29:21] topics to talk about.

[01:29:22] We have to,

[01:29:23] um,

[01:29:24] record our reaction to the U S presidential election,

[01:29:28] which I am stealing myself for because that will,

[01:29:31] be somewhere between a podcast and group therapy.

[01:29:34] Um,

[01:29:35] but we talk about British politics.

[01:29:36] We talk about international politics.

[01:29:38] We talk about sport culture and whatever else interests us.

[01:29:43] Basically.

[01:29:44] Yeah.

[01:29:45] Okay.

[01:29:46] Any final thoughts before we go?

[01:29:49] No,

[01:29:49] I'm really looking forward to episode three,

[01:29:51] this whole not watching ahead thing.

[01:29:53] I'm down with it.

[01:29:55] I really am,

[01:29:56] but it was,

[01:29:57] it was so tempting this week.

[01:29:58] It was so tempting.

[01:30:00] Well,

[01:30:00] you can,

[01:30:00] you can watch it immediately after we stop recording.

[01:30:03] Yeah.

[01:30:04] Um,

[01:30:05] we,

[01:30:05] so we will be back in your ears for next week's episode three breakdown,

[01:30:09] and even sooner for subscribers or season pass holders with the spoiler

[01:30:13] casts.

[01:30:13] And if we get enough material in,

[01:30:15] then we'll have a mailbag episode in the meantime,

[01:30:18] too.

[01:30:19] Until then,

[01:30:20] what happens in the down deep stays in the down deep.