The Fall of the House of Usher & Edgar Allan Poe

[00:00:00] Okay, David. This is where we're supposed to choose a side. Green or black? John, my soul is as black as night. Your turn. I am black for life. So, we're not fighting? I thought this is where HBO wanted us to, like, pick sides and fight and stuff.

[00:00:24] Don't worry, I'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about on the pod, but we seem to agree on one thing. We both really like the show. The politics, the drama, the lore! It was made for the Lorehounds.

[00:00:36] And since we just finished recapping Season 1, we couldn't be more ready to defend our black queen in the Dance of the Dragons.

[00:00:43] And with the Season Pass option and Supercast, listeners can get early, ad-free access to each weekly, scene-by-scene deep dive, plus our custom show guide with all the characters and connections. See you in the Lorehounds podcast feed each week for our dragonfire hot, but probably positive, takes.

[00:01:00] The Lorehounds House of the Dragon coverage is also safe for teen green consumption. Side effects may include a deeper understanding of dragon lore, a hardened conflict with itself, and an inescapable urge to read the book fire in blood by George R.R. Martin. Dragon seeds may experience burning.

[00:01:12] Wul's shift dust is back, rising from a sleep-like death like a raven-faced angel of vengeance. It is the most wonderful time of year, spooky season, of course.

[00:01:51] And it just so happens that one of my favorite filmmakers has made an adaptation of the writing of one of my favorite authors of all time. So you better fucking believe we're covering the fall of the House of Usher on Netflix.

[00:02:04] Don't worry if you haven't seen it just yet, we're going to start with a spoiler-free chat about the series overall, and then we'll warn you before diving into the actual plot spoilers and all the tie-ins, or a whole bunch of them at least.

[00:02:16] Everything's been incorporated from post stories and poems to pieces of his real life that showrunner Mike Lanigan has woven in. So we'll get to that soon, but first I have a very special guest with me for this one. More on that in a minute.

[00:02:31] Just to mention if you're into the Poe series, we're doing a whole cross-podcasting. I've got a conversation with Maester Anthony on Electric Bookaloo in this feed already.

[00:02:42] So we're talking about the influence of Poe on George R. R. Martin and the Game of Thrones, the Song of Ice and Fire series. And we've got Book Club already up in the Book Club feed.

[00:02:54] It's double Poe trouble where I do full readings and we have one of our very own Dead Eye Jedi Bob. Also helps, he does the raven and I do the fall of the House of Usher itself, complete with sound effects and even maybe some singing.

[00:03:10] And then in The Lorhounds I also had a chat with John about Mike Flanagan, John's seven deadly sins theory, and I talk about a hopfrog theory that I won't be talking about here tie in with another Poe story.

[00:03:24] Yeah, so time to welcome my special guest and it is I've promised it on previous podcasts. My very own sister grew up together, share the blood, share the memories good and bad. Ashley, welcome to We'll Shift Dust.

[00:03:41] Thank you, Alicia. It's good to see you. Good to be here with you. Yeah, so yeah, we're coordinating across continents now. Yes. Yeah, you live in Philadelphia where I grew up and also a significant city in Poe's life.

[00:03:57] Yeah, so I hope listeners can tell us apart. We always get told that we have similar voices. Yep, hopefully you can tell that I am the cool one. Yeah. All right, well, we'll litigate that at the end of the podcast.

[00:04:10] So we obviously watched a lot of horror movie together growing up. I started a bit earlier. I'm the older one. It was kind of like an accidental nightmare cure for me.

[00:04:21] Yeah, mom and dad realized like when I pastored them to stay up one night and watch Jaws and HBO that I actually had fewer nightmares for some reason. So they're like, okay, fine. But what was your first horror memory, Ashley? Honestly, it's the leprechaun.

[00:04:37] I remember pretty vividly the scene with the Pogo stick where he's jumping on a person on her belly.

[00:04:43] And yeah, I was looking back to this day. I'm still kind of surprised that they let me watch that so young but also not surprised because they just, you know, they let us do that. They're chill parents. Yeah, so I guess that's my fault. Thank you then.

[00:05:01] So we kind of have our tastes have somewhat diverged like you watch a bit more of like the saw hostile stuff than I do.

[00:05:08] I do. I like movies that are easy to follow honestly so I don't have to think too much a lot of the time although I do appreciate a variety but I just love visceral guttural gore. Yeah, okay, okay.

[00:05:24] Yeah, and I tend to go to the supernatural. I don't know. I like the whole Gothic vibe which obviously ties back to the whole Polo.

[00:05:34] So Ashley talking about this series at hand, what is your no spoilers yet but what is your hot take on the fall of the House of Usher as a whole? Did you like it? What were some of your highlights low lights?

[00:05:50] I did. I enjoyed it overall. I'm trying to think of what I can say without being a spoiler because I'm not used to this but I liked the arc of the story and the character especially the main characters that they got into throughout the season

[00:06:08] and I definitely liked the tie-ins with Poe. I don't know his work as well as you do but I was able to appreciate some of this through reading him in the past which is really nice and good to see on the screen especially done in such a disturbing, eerie, awesome way.

[00:06:26] Yeah. So I really liked how dark, mysterious and visually pleasing the show was.

[00:06:33] I have definitely nailed the visuals. For me, I was worried at first when I saw the first trailer because I was like, oh my god this doesn't look like Poe at all and they're just making up shape shifting demons and what is any and then once I watched it, I had such a high just like having fun picking out all of the little Easter eggs.

[00:06:53] Like oh my god they just used some lines from that poem. Oh my god that's part of the plot of this story. Oh look how they're just weaving it all together. So yeah, that probably definitely colored my experience in a positive way but I also feel like Flanagan has gotten more mature too in the way that he puts together his stories.

[00:07:14] Yeah, so I thought Hill House was scarier but this one was more like perfect to me. Did you find this scary, this one?

[00:07:25] I don't know that I found it scary as much as I found a lot of it kind of delightfully disturbing. It was unsettling at times and watching the characters, some of them kind of unraveling was just really like uncomfortable in a good way if you like that kind of thing.

[00:07:46] Yeah which is very on brand for Poe but there was a lot of gore I guess. There was but I guess I'm pretty desensitized to that especially knowing that I am into the saw movies and all that so for me those are the fun juicy parts.

[00:08:00] Yeah, no I agree but it was also people were talking about like oh but there were a few jump scares. I'm like oh there were jump scares?

[00:08:08] There were few. I tried to take note of it and I was a little surprised with how few I noticed and maybe again I could be desensitized to that as well or just have like blinked at the wrong moment but there weren't that many jump scares.

[00:08:22] I mean I can really think of one but yeah we'll talk about it on the other side of this further section. So speaking of Mike Flanagan the creator, head writer, editor, director he did have a lot of help in writing this so this shows a strength of collaboration

[00:08:39] but you are you in general a Mike Flanagan fan how many of his other things have you seen? I did see the haunting of Hill House and the haunting of Bly Manor beyond that looking at the list here.

[00:08:53] Oculus I loved, I absolutely loved that movie and Hush. I haven't seen that one. Loved Hush. I thought that was so good.

[00:09:00] Gerald's game absolutely really interesting type of horror if you haven't seen it you should check that one out because it's not your typical scary movie but it is still deeply unsettling. I watched it last week. Oh nice. Because I just wanted more like Carla Gugino and Bruce Greenwood.

[00:09:20] Did you notice a small peep to that show in I mean that movie in the show? Yeah yeah and I also noticed in that show that there was a book called Midnight Mass. Oh okay I missed that part. Yeah.

[00:09:32] So I do I suppose we can say I do like Flanagan's work. Yeah I mean I've seen all the Netflix stuff and this is his last thing on Netflix by the way so I don't know bummer slash exciting I don't know.

[00:09:46] But I've seen all the Halloween shows and but the only movies I've seen are Geralt's game and sorry Gerald's game and Doctor Sleep. So both Stephen King. Yeah he likes to reuse actors so it's nice to see them back.

[00:10:00] I'm not by the way going to be going through and pointing out everything that everyone's been in because you can find those lists online and there's so much to talk about anyway. But it is interesting he's married to Kate Siegel who played Camille Usher.

[00:10:15] Okay I didn't realize that. Yeah I didn't really I don't know if I realized that either to be honest. We talked before about that fingers crossed he's going to do this dark tower adaptation next. That would be awesome.

[00:10:30] Yeah this is one of your favorite series of books right. It is my go to whenever anyone asked your favorite book I just say it's the whole Dark Tower series I was just blown away by it when I read those books it stuck with me.

[00:10:42] But neither of us saw the Idris Elba starring one that got it didn't sound good. I'm too scared to watch a bad adaptation of my favorite story. Yeah. One of my favorite stories.

[00:10:55] Yeah but that's the thing is so Mike Flanagan he wants to do five seasons of TV and two movies. So Amazon bulked at that but I think like this again is showing that he has the audience you know he has the vision.

[00:11:11] And I think he's already done several Stephen King adaptations and he knows how to do like weird proper horror. And he knows how to like take the essence out of out of what he's adapting and put his own stamp on it.

[00:11:26] Yeah and I could argue that he also or support he also is just really good at tying in little pieces of different parts of whether it's one series or a bunch of different works by the same author. He's good at weaving it together into one cohesive story.

[00:11:40] Yeah yeah so would you mind if he did the Dark Tower series but like you know woke things out of order like it's a different turning of the wheels so to speak.

[00:11:51] I can't imagine he could possibly do it exactly as it is in the books it's too much it's seven books plus another one that came in that I think fits between books three and four.

[00:12:00] So yeah he's got to do what he's got to do to make it work and I mean I think you'd have to just go into it with those expectations of it's not going to be the exact same story but hopefully he'll have a lot of the main elements and main feels that go with it.

[00:12:16] Yeah.

[00:12:17] I'm definitely watching his next his next work also in development apparently is a long gestating adaptation of the life of Chuck by Stephen King and also another of the season of passage by Christopher Pike so that's the author that he based the Midnight Club series on which I know a lot of people were

[00:12:37] poo pooing the Midnight Club series but I love Christopher Pike books growing up and I thought it was pretty good just for teens.

[00:12:44] Okay so Ashley you said that you have like just a certain level of po exposure do you think that's do you think we got more exposure because we grew up in Philadelphia. If so I didn't ever know that was the reason. That was the reason. Okay.

[00:13:00] And honestly the two that stick out to me the most are the Raven and a telltale heart the telltale heart always stuck with me as my favorite of his but I didn't actually know he lived in Philadelphia so I would not say that at least I learned about more about him on purpose because of that.

[00:13:17] Well it was because Philadelphia was like the center of the publishing in the US at that time. It was the center of his publishing career so. It makes sense.

[00:13:29] Basically all of his stuff is published in Philly but I don't know how many because I got assigned to read it in school as well. Yes. I don't know if that's something that's still done. Oh that's a good point. Yes we did. I remember reading them in school.

[00:13:44] That's probably why I read them at all honestly. Yeah. One of the ones I actually read and was happy to have done. We got some good school reading.

[00:13:53] I hope kids today do too but yeah for me like I read it and then I connected with some of it and then I got like the full collection you know. Yeah I think especially like he just appealed to the angsty goth kid at heart that I had.

[00:14:11] You saw me as a teenager. I did see you as a teenager. And he had in particular there was one poem. He wrote this poem when he was 21 years old but it wasn't published until like 25 years after his death and it's called Alone.

[00:14:30] And I felt so seen by it. Okay so I'm going to it's a short one so I'll just say it real quick. From childhoods hour I have not been as others were. I have not seen as others saw.

[00:14:42] I could not bring my passion from a common spring and from the same source I have not taken my sorrow. I could not awaken my heart to joy at the same tone and all I loved I loved alone.

[00:14:55] Then in my childhood in the dawn of a most stormy life was drawn from every depth of good and ill. The mystery which binds me still from the torrents or the fountain from the red cliff of the mountain

[00:15:08] from the sun which round me rolled in its autumn tint of gold from the lightning in the sky as it passed me flying by

[00:15:16] from the thunder and the storm and the cloud that took the form when the rest of heaven was blue of a demon in my view. So yeah that made me I was like oh he gets it.

[00:15:30] That's awesome I can see that I can see why you liked it. But then yeah as I got older and learned more about Poe I realized not everything is about me and I could see that he had a much stormier life than I did indeed.

[00:15:44] So his darkness you can see where it comes from. He was born January 19th, 1809 in Boston but yeah lived up and down the East Coast his whole life. His dad left when he was an infant maybe died a year later we don't really know.

[00:16:00] His mom she was herself orphaned at a young age and brought up in a theater troupe. She was apparently quite talented but she died before he was three and so he had three siblings at the time.

[00:16:14] His older brother Henry Leonard and a younger sister Rosalie who maybe had a different dad because the timing suspicious. But yeah they were separated at death sent to different families but kept in touch and he was taken in and baptized but not adopted by the Allens.

[00:16:31] He had a fraught relationship with his foster dad John Allen his whole life. It had to do with his gambling and his wanting to be a writer and you know all these things that a dad who hasn't adopted you

[00:16:46] and a son who's not what you hoped would fight about. They reconciled briefly when his foster mom died like his mom of tuberculosis and his older brother died in 1831 when Poe was 22 also of tuberculosis.

[00:17:01] He went into a military career, lied about his age to enlist and he did pretty well with promotions went to West Point got himself kicked out on purpose said fuck my foster dad I'm just going to be a professional writer

[00:17:14] and he was one of the very first people to make a career from writing so yeah he was poor his whole life.

[00:17:22] And yeah the men actually from his regimen and millet when he was at West Point all chipped in to help himself publish his first book of poetry so it's dedicated to them. I always think it's really sweet. That is sweet.

[00:17:37] And he wrote the satire poetry short stories one completed novel like more like plays and uncompleted stuff a lot of essays. He was really mostly a literary editor and critic and yeah he published all this in Philadelphia.

[00:17:52] He had some infamous rivalries which were incorporated into the series and he had a rather rich love life. What do you know about his love life actually nothing but I'm excited to hear about it. Well, he had a few engagements or maybe engagements.

[00:18:12] Many public flirtations sometimes with married women but he married one woman Virginia Eliza so middle name same of his as his mom because that was his first cousin not uncommon at the time.

[00:18:25] She was 13 though when they married he was 26 and I don't know the weird thing to me is he's known her much longer and he lied about her age at their wedding. But her mom was totally on board and lived with him even after her daughter died.

[00:18:42] And yeah also from tuberculosis obviously so he lived with his mother-in-law until his disappearance in death. Does any of this change would you think of him Ashley.

[00:18:53] Yikes, I mean that's pretty young but I guess in the 1800s maybe it's not quite as big a deal as it sounds right now.

[00:19:02] But yeah he definitely had a pretty rough upbringing lot of tuberculosis which is a big bomber for him so I can see where there was some sorrow in his upbringing.

[00:19:11] Yeah well I think we should think about this tuberculosis when we talk about the Mask of the Red Death episode. Gotcha yes.

[00:19:20] When he died though the fun thing is that various women who had known him came out of the woodworks and like they all wanted to establish their association with him.

[00:19:32] And a lot of what we know about him came through that some of his letters got published some of them fought back against a unsavory obituary that ruined his reputation which we'll talk a bit more about later.

[00:19:46] What do you think? Do you think that it's better for them to have said and like released private letters or do you think that they should have just kept that secret? The other lovers you mean? Like other women? Yeah.

[00:20:02] I mean I'm all about some juicy drama so yeah let it be known, let's hear about it, let's stir some shit up.

[00:20:09] Yeah I mean yeah so but he had no children so he was actually the end of his house like the ushers and his death is a huge mystery.

[00:20:18] It happened October 3rd 1849. He was supposed to be on his way to Philadelphia from, I think he was coming from his house which was in like the equivalent of the Bronx and somehow he ended up in Baltimore in somebody else's clothes dead in the street.

[00:20:34] So there's all these theories like could it have been a binge gone wrong, could it have been murder or one of the most popular ones is have you heard of cooping? I have not.

[00:20:47] It's like basically when they kind of kidnapped some people and then they keep changing their clothes and having them vote under different names so that their candidate would win.

[00:20:57] They had no way to like steal votes but they would get them really drunk so that they would cooperate I guess but Poe was infamously sensitive to alcohol.

[00:21:08] So he had this obituary that said he was a huge drinker but apparently other people said like well he was just a terrible drinker, he could only have a drink or two and would just you know get way too drunk.

[00:21:20] There's also similar rumors about opium like you know opium was just everyone was using it back then in the day it was, it didn't seem like he had a special problem with it. But he did have a lot of gambling debts that was a thing.

[00:21:35] So Ashley have any of these details affected your thoughts about the show. Well you said his mom saying it was Eliza so there was an Eliza on the show so I hope there's that.

[00:21:45] I mean I don't know it all seems very kind of messy which I guess you can see reflected in the show in some ways messiness of relationships and family ties romance if you can call it that well I'm sure we'll get more into that with the episodes and stuff.

[00:22:04] Substance use I mean I'm not surprised it does seem fitting. Yeah he was he like I guess kind of invented the stereotype of writers in some ways. Yes he inspired so many to be just like that. Excuse me gonna go get some opium.

[00:22:26] All right well let us bite into the meat of this body of harrowing Halloween horror before it starts to turn after a quick commercial break we're unlocking the tomb and letting all the spoilers rise from their own door. No longer eternal rest.

[00:22:41] Beware you are now entering the spoiler section make sure you have watched and or read the thing we are talking about if you don't want to be spoiled. All right and we're back and Ashley you ready to actually talk about the details. Absolutely I am ready.

[00:23:10] What did you think about the format of the show like the whole death per episode thing.

[00:23:15] I liked it I like when they delve into each character's story per episode and you know each theme of it is that characters kind of unraveling and demise and so I enjoyed the special detail that we got to learn about each of the children all while learning about you know the past and present of Roderick and Madeline.

[00:23:35] Yeah someone on the Lorhoun's discord called it succession meets final destination. I thought that was rather apt or I saw people in Twitter calling it the succession Halloween special.

[00:23:48] I actually haven't seen succession but I can see the final destination comparison with the kind of imminent what's coming is inevitable and you know a lot of foreshadowing and hints throughout. Yeah somebody's gonna die each time. Yeah succession this is way more fun than succession so noted.

[00:24:10] So John on the Lorhoun's he pointed out that the kids actually died in reverse order of age.

[00:24:16] I was too distracted notice like trying to play the matching game as soon as the first episode was over I was like oh here are the names in here are the episode titles and the job titles and then I could figure out who was dying each episode.

[00:24:28] So that was just part of my like fun po puzzle brain. Were you were you right.

[00:24:34] Yes I was right who died each each episode but some of them I wasn't sure about like Frederick I knew he was going to die pit and pendulum by process of elimination but I couldn't quite see how he tied into the story until we got there. Okay.

[00:24:50] But yeah I also I also figured out that Lenore was going to die in the last episode because as soon as I was like Lenore lost Lenore the Raven oh no.

[00:25:00] Right I caught right away that she was you know from the reason yeah I was actually naively hopeful for her until a certain point and I was like yeah okay now it makes more sense that she's not gonna make it.

[00:25:13] As soon as they said bloodline I was like well. Yeah yeah and well first I'm like sitting there like well but wait bloodline but what about Lenore like as if she was an exception I was like no dummy she's part of it.

[00:25:26] At least she didn't have to die horribly so. No it was a very peaceful death. Poor thing.

[00:25:32] So this is called the fall of the house of usher but that story actually really only has three characters and the Raven only has two but every other character introduced has in this show pretty much has an origin in pose writing and or real life so I'm going to be pointing out those links as we go.

[00:25:51] The way we're going to do this is we're going to retell the story in roughly chronological order so first we're going to talk about the full backstory of the twins and do pen and verna.

[00:26:02] And then I will get to the week of death one episode at a time with each characters arc explored and full when we talk about their death episode. Make sense. Make sense to me. Awesome.

[00:26:14] So diving in with the twins we have these are two of the three characters from the house of usher the other being the nameless narrator more on that in a bit.

[00:26:24] So the twins are Roderick and Madeline and actually would you want to twin if you had to agree to enter the world together and leave it together. I'm going to say no. Because I don't want to be responsible for someone else's death depending on my reckless lifestyle.

[00:26:44] Okay that's interesting that it goes that way and you're not worried about you getting killed. No I'm the I'm the badass of the two twins probably. Obviously. These are like the two the two characters that had actually four actors playing each of them.

[00:27:03] So what were your thoughts overall on on like the whole cast of characters playing them do you think that they held together like did you see a coherent character through the ages.

[00:27:14] I did think that they were coherent for me what stuck out the most was the younger adult versions and the older adult versions. I thought that they especially with Madeline I thought that was extremely well cast. Yeah just really well done both of those actresses actors.

[00:27:29] Yeah so just to run through it so for Madeline we had Kate Whittington playing the kid version Lulu Wilson as a teen Willow Fitzgerald as the younger adult and Mary McDonnell as the older adult.

[00:27:42] And for Roderick it was Lincoln Russo as a kid Graham Versher as a teen. Zach Guilford as a younger adult and Bruce Greenwood as an older adult and Bruce Greenwood actually was a late stage replacement for actor Franklin Jella who was released due to something about behavior stuff.

[00:28:05] Yep. Whoops. But I mean all that aside like Bruce Greenwood absolutely nailed this character for me I can't imagine anyone else. No he did a phenomenal job I yeah also couldn't see anyone else in the role.

[00:28:18] Yeah so we started with the kid versions I always love a flashback I don't know is that like is that weird like that I would just love that every episode just have flashbacks to backstory.

[00:28:31] No I also love it it feels like you're getting a sneak peek or just this insight that you otherwise wouldn't have with a more linear story. Yeah it feels like a secret somehow. Yeah.

[00:28:41] And speaking of secrets there was an affair and a forbidden house so juicy stuff to begin with.

[00:28:49] And yeah so their mom Eliza was having an affair with we'll talk about this name long fellow her boss and yeah Roderick one day he climbs a fence he falls he gets injured the boss daddy is a total dick.

[00:29:05] And Madeline sees right through him she always sees right through people and their mom has very religious and bright eyed at this point.

[00:29:14] Now it's interesting that we see that the House of Usher and now the House of Usher in the stories is like I picture it on a moor somewhere in the highlands with this dramatic estate crumbling in desolation and isolated and here it's like a suburban house in a street but they did the crumbling part well what did you think of the House of Usher itself.

[00:29:37] So I read the short story before watching just to see what sort of hints and whatever it could give me little more knowledge of the Easter eggs that would pop in in the story in general.

[00:29:49] And I've just was overwhelmed by Poe's description of the house in the short story I mean he just brought on this desolate sense of dread describing every little detail of the house.

[00:30:00] And I mean the old house in the show I was actually surprised it looked more somehow more run down than I expected but not in like a haunting way it was just like kind of a beat up junker house the old one. Right.

[00:30:16] So I mean I guess for me the house didn't quite pair with what I was expecting based on the short story. No. Yeah I don't know it was an interesting decision to make I guess they wanted to make him come from more humble beginnings.

[00:30:28] But it's interesting because it's like Roderick in this case was more of an agent in his own life making things happen but it also means he was making the bad things happen whereas in the story he's almost kind of more of like a victim of his birth.

[00:30:44] It's kind of like an analogy for genetics. Yeah I could see that. Yeah and they also in their book they say that they're charitable so I don't know anyway. Charitable with drugs.

[00:30:55] So yeah pose mother as you pointed out is Eliza Poe Eliza Usher in the show played by Annabeth Gish and the ushers now the name that was used for the short story it might have been family friends who watched him while his mom was sick and dying or even more likely there

[00:31:19] was a real life spooky house with a reputation in Boston called the Hezikaya Usher House and it was constructed in 1684 but then it was torn down in 1830 and there was apparently the story went a sailor and the young wife of the older owner they were caught and

[00:31:38] they were entombed in their tristing spot by their husband very poe story and when the usher house was torn down in 1830 the two bodies were found embraced in a cavity in the cellar. That's that's a rough way to go and to stay.

[00:31:55] I mean yeah I guess at least they had each other for the final cuddle better than you know being entombed in a wall alone. Yeah that was that's that's a part that's that got me.

[00:32:08] Yeah I said I would tell you more about William Longfellow the dad he was played by Robert Longstreet by the way he was actually named after one of ushers real life rivals but it was like kind of a one sided rivalry.

[00:32:20] So in 1841 Poe he was this ambitious upstart editor of something called Grams Magazine and Philly and Longfellow was a prestigious academic at Harvard and Poe asked Longfellow to become a contributor to his magazine and Longfellow was like polite but said no I don't have time for that.

[00:32:37] And Poe started review bombing him accused him of plagiarism said his writing was going out of style this part might be true.

[00:32:46] He might have even invented a persona someone he called Altis which is Greek for nobody to argue with himself about it in his own paper and Longfellow seems to just have like sat back the entire time and chilled and then after Poe's death he gave Poe's mother-in-law some money class act.

[00:33:06] Yeah that's okay. But yeah it wasn't as bad as Poe's other even greater rival which we'll talk about in a second also a character in the show now if you think there's a character in the show who's even more ick than Longfellow the dad who would you say?

[00:33:21] Chris Wald. Yeah that's the one. I mean right like that's he really that's an easy answer right there. That's the one.

[00:33:29] Now if you Ashley were to pick a celebrity that you were going to beef with to get more attention for yourself in your career who would you choose?

[00:33:41] It's kind of mixed feelings but I want to say like Miley Cyrus because she kind of bugs me and annoys me even though she's got a great voice so I feel like I would have fun picking on her. Sorry Miley. It's okay she listens yeah.

[00:33:56] Yeah come at me. That's fair. I don't know who would I want to beef with like I feel like I would probably go for some politician but then it just gets like no fun. And they'll dig you into the dirt faster than any singer will.

[00:34:11] Yeah that's true that's true it's no longer just fun Twitter stuff. No it's now you're buried in a house in the wall. Right at least give me somebody to cuddle with. Yeah nope nope just some chains. Oh man maybe a mask. A jester costume yeah.

[00:34:27] You can make yourself laugh. By the way one thing also about the fictional longfellow in the show is his ruthless approach to parenting when he said children are never too tender to be whipped as apparently actually a pro quote so comes from his 1849 work 50 suggestions.

[00:34:48] Maybe that's a reason he should not have had children. Thank you for not torturing young minds or bodies. Maybe he wasn't.

[00:34:55] I don't know like I don't even know if he his wife he and his wife tried but hmm so skipping ahead to 1962 we've got mother Eliza now bed bound she's got this family illness that we'll talk about later but she's refusing medical care because you know Jesus wouldn't want that or whatever.

[00:35:14] So when she dies they decide OK we have to give her a private burial but that ends up being a big oops because she is not quite dead yet. Were you surprised by that.

[00:35:25] I was I also just want to say that when they were digging the grave I was like are you kidding me you are very much in view of your neighbor's window.

[00:35:33] Like come on think a little harder about what you're doing but also yeah I didn't expect her to not be dead.

[00:35:39] It was interesting OK so when they were burying the grave they had two poems mixed together one it's called for Annie from 1949 and it was one of the last things that he wrote and it was written for one of his flirty friends.

[00:35:53] Her name was Nancy L. Heywood Richmond but Po called her Annie and later after he died she legally changed her name to Annie.

[00:36:03] So she was one of the ones who like some letters that we have from him were letters to her but this poem for Annie it seems to me like he's giving up on life.

[00:36:13] So thank heaven the crisis the danger is past the lingering illness is over at last and the fever called living is conquered at last. So just thinking that's one of the last things that he wrote it always gave me an extra sadness.

[00:36:28] And then the other one the Nord's from much earlier but it's also celebrating rather than mourning death. Yes that's also the name of the main character in the Raven. Right. But yeah the premature burial is actually the name of his 1844 story.

[00:36:45] Yeah there's a character who is actually afraid of being buried more than actually is buried themselves.

[00:36:52] So this seems more like the fall of the House of Usher the way that Madeline ends in that story is yeah she ends up getting stuck inside of a tomb when she's not quite dead yet because I guess she had a catalepsy.

[00:37:07] Which is horrifying that is one of the most terrifying things to think of. Yeah well yeah in the fall of the House of Usher she's stuck in there for what was it like eight nine days.

[00:37:16] Yeah I have to think about like that Usher house that was in Boston with the people entombed in the walls because these burial fears keep coming back again and again in so many stories like including the fall of the House of Usher the black cat and telltale heart which are both in this series as well.

[00:37:32] Do you know about the dead ringers the like real phenomenon the real thing that happened. I don't but I do know a gruesome short story I can briefly tell you. But go ahead and tell me about it because I bet maybe it's probably related.

[00:37:46] It's from someone who does a podcast on true dark stories it's not all true crime but someone who was in seemingly dead but probably more than something like a coma and was buried alive in a cement coffin and but it was one that was above ground and so her husband was like dead.

[00:38:06] Her husband was like weeping against the stone wall of it and actually heard her banging only because he had his ear pressed against it he would not have heard it but by the time they were able to drill through all the stone and get her out she had actually died anyway.

[00:38:20] Oh wow.

[00:38:22] Well yeah so the protagonist is another nameless narrator of the premature burial would like collect stories like that and then obsess over them and then he finally got over it's one of the rare stories where he finds he survives the fear and gets over it because in the fall of the House of Usher.

[00:38:39] Roderick definitely dies from the fear. But yeah there was like a phenomenon back in the day where they had they would tie a belt people's fingers when they buried them because they worried about that happening. Right now that you mentioned it. Yeah to be dead ringers. Yikes.

[00:38:58] It's also interesting that the production team in one interview they said that Madeleine's AI that the idea stemmed from a modern version of death by entombment which was common occurrence in post work. Yeah.

[00:39:12] The idea being that your mind is uploaded to a cloud like database but your body is gone came from the discussion after reading the premature burial. So okay interesting. I was sliding in the AI thing somewhere else.

[00:39:26] Yeah the Eliza death is like more like usher and other ways to like the fact that they wanted a private burial for fear of outsiders. The fact that she came back in a storm only to take out the object of her scorn with her as she went.

[00:39:41] Yeah that was a that was one of the first I think like freaky scenes that was just like whoa when when she came back all messed up out of the grave and went and got her vengeance.

[00:39:52] Yeah not I mean it was it's a bit freakier in the story I think but then yeah that was that was also the first death of this show I guess. Mm-hmm. Yeah well since we thought she was and she wasn't or at least I did.

[00:40:08] So in the 1962 story we also have Madeleine as she's teaching Roderick how to be manipulative when they go to see long fellow.

[00:40:16] What do you what did you think of that do you say like yeah take baby bird under your wing or do you think she was a corrupting influence on him.

[00:40:25] I think she grew up with a really troubling childhood and was just trying to kind of figure out how to survive and be her own autonomous powerhouse in a way and she took it too far but she was really just trying to like not let other people dictate her life.

[00:40:45] Yeah. No that's fair that's fair.

[00:40:48] I wanted to point out just one cool thing during the storm sequence visually is did you notice during the flashing storm it was like every time the lightning flash there was color and then it would be black and white almost when it was in between.

[00:41:03] I did not notice I think the flashing was so much my eyes were just trying to adjust to the flashing lights and I didn't notice color or lack thereof. Yeah that's fair that's fair.

[00:41:13] I just yeah they I was really impressed with the production design by Lauren Kelsey and apparently I didn't actually notice this it was pointed out to me but this was confirmed by her that each of the siblings were assigned a color so when they died you would see their color

[00:41:30] so Perry was red blue was Frederick Vic was orange Camille was silver Tammy was green Leo was yellow Madeline was purple Roderick was gold and Lenore was black.

[00:41:46] I did not catch that I did notice that there were color themes but I didn't notice that there was strictly a color per person that's really cool. Yeah I didn't put that together either but yeah that's a really cool production design detail.

[00:41:58] So moving into the seventies we have our twins meeting two significant people first is Roderick's wife Annabelle Lee played by Katie Parker and she's named after a poem about lamenting a lost love and he recites like pretty much all of it I think throughout the series so you've heard that poem now.

[00:42:20] But it's interesting because at first when he's reciting the beginning in the beginning he sounds like he's being very possessive of her and then eventually he's mourning her death. Did you have the feeling that she committed suicide. Huh.

[00:42:34] It's a lot of her at the funeral it sounded like she maybe killed herself after a kid's laughter. You know now that you say it that does make sense it didn't cross my mind in the show but that that does make sense.

[00:42:48] Do you think she changed like I always noticed that at first she was kind of to the side and usually holding a child but then she got more assertive as time went by but then also there was more friction between her and Roderick.

[00:43:03] I don't know if I would say for me that she felt assertive as much as she just felt like she was more and more standing her ground right not like pushing but just not being pushed like. Right.

[00:43:16] Just I guess speaking up a little more which is a bit assertive but just still in a very kind way of and just like a moral way of saying what you're doing is wrong not like yelling or screaming or anything hostile like that but she was more standing her ground.

[00:43:33] Yeah not pushing but yeah not giving up not giving away. And what did you think of Auguste de Paire the detective cop.

[00:43:43] I thought he was a great character I thought the actor did a great job I especially liked young young Augie and how when they first brought him in when he kind of forced his way into their apartment he was so observant like he was able to say so many details about their

[00:44:01] life that he they couldn't deny that he had a point with trying to get them involved and trying to get them to do the right thing so I just I felt like he was a really strong character in his youth and then we saw him more passive in his older

[00:44:13] age but yeah I did I liked his character.

[00:44:16] Yeah the young version was played by Malcolm Goodwin and I was it was driving me crazy is like I know this guy you played a cop somewhere else what is it and I realize I zombie did you ever watch out. No I never saw that one.

[00:44:28] It's about like sentient zombies who yeah they can live with it but they take over Seattle and it becomes a whole thing anyway. He plays a cop in that.

[00:44:39] And then yeah the older version was played by Carl Lombly and yeah he just brought a great presence to it but he was someone who had kind of realized that he hadn't made the wrong decisions and we'll talk about his end.

[00:44:53] But Dupain the character so Poe was actually credited for inventing detective fiction. So Dupain is the prototype for characters like Sherlock.

[00:45:03] That's awesome I did not realize that it also took me a second in the show to realize Dupain was the narrator of the short story at first I thought he was right they slotted him into that role.

[00:45:13] Yeah yeah it wasn't I kind of suspected it then I didn't for a second and then I was like no this is definitely that got the narrator of the. Yeah yeah because they use that as like the framing device to have him talking.

[00:45:26] I think that was a smart way to combine things yeah. Yeah and use it to build the story of their past by making the narrator you know giving him more of a backstory and a reason. Right not just somebody who showed up at the family house.

[00:45:41] And like old friend is a loose term. Yeah apparently he didn't even know that the brother and sister were twins in the story so. Okay you missed that somehow but yeah so they didn't use the word detective back then in the 1840s whatever.

[00:45:58] So Poe called these stories ratio sonation.

[00:46:02] So the first one was the murders in the room org so that's one of the ones that's in the show that was in 1841 and then we had the mystery of Marie Roger which is based on a real life story but was like considered a sequel to the first one year later.

[00:46:18] And then in 1844 one some people might have heard of is the pearl or indoletter which wasn't adapted here but. Those are it those were the only three Dupin stories and like detective fiction has built upon the back of that.

[00:46:33] That's powerful to have the base be built on just three legs. Yeah a tripod yeah but yeah so in the stories he was a Japan was a French valier.

[00:46:45] He was an amateur detective so here he's a lawyer and in the stories he was a fallen member of a wealthy family whereas I don't get the sense that he came from a wealthy family in this case. No not in the financial way.

[00:46:59] Yeah yes that's right because he realizes at the end that that's not what wealth is. I think the most Dupin like thing that he did though was when he threw out in the courtroom a fake informant to shake things up.

[00:47:15] Oh yeah that I noted that is something that stood out to me I thought that was awesome move of his it worked so well.

[00:47:23] But I thought that I thought Ratterick was on to him in the courtroom they exchanged like a little look I was like oh he's just causing trouble but nope he couldn't help himself like even after all of his kids are dead he's like it doesn't really matter

[00:47:35] it doesn't really matter but just like tell me. Yeah but who was it? It's Perry right? Or Perry. I mean Perry sucked. Yeah that's true too.

[00:47:51] But so did Ratterick a bit because in the 70s he betrayed Dupin so this is when we start seeing Rufi's Griswold who also sucks played by Michael Trucco and this is named after indeed after Poe's biggest rival.

[00:48:08] People liked this guy way less than Poe even though Poe was kind of like a difficult gambling whatever.

[00:48:15] But yeah Griswold was the kind of guy who was possibly closeted gay but without other people so you know he published Poe's work but then he replaced Poe and one of his jobs and got paid way more. Damn.

[00:48:31] There was just a huge robbery in their life and when Poe died he wrote the obituary under a fake name and said that oh he was now the executor of Poe's professional estate

[00:48:43] and like showed a signed document from Poe's mother-in-law which may or may not have been forged but even if it wasn't Poe's sister was alive so she should have been the executor of his estate.

[00:48:53] But anyway he didn't give any money to the family and yeah it kind of falls in line with the character of the show where he's stealing bodies to forge science experiments and signing up random people pretending their patients.

[00:49:09] Do you think he knew that the twins were really like the kids of Longfellow? Hmm you mean Augie or Rufus Griswold. Do you think Griswold yeah knew that the twins. I want to say no he treated them like peons like dirt under his shoe.

[00:49:27] But I wondered if he did that because he knew that. I guess I could be like he thinks they kind of weaseled their way into wealth or tried to and so he wanted to squash them as much as he could at first.

[00:49:38] Because when Roderick first came to pitch him the whole Ligodome thing he said something about being the kids of you know that his mom used to sit at the desk outside and I felt like there was a look on his face but I don't know if that means anything.

[00:49:54] Well he may have at least suspected it if he didn't know. Yeah well anyway he was a freaking misogynist pig he sucked. Yes but. Not as much as Frederick but he sucked. He did suck but it led to his demise so whatever.

[00:50:13] Yeah yeah but Dupin sure is bitter after the betrayal like just apparently says fuck my family I'm going to go get this guy. Yeah. Dedicates his career to it. Why do you think Roderick betrayed him?

[00:50:28] Do you think it's because the sister told him to or do you think he wanted to?

[00:50:33] Yeah so I just want to say that that was a fierce betrayal and I think you know we knew it was coming because they had mentioned it before that he'd betrayed him but it was like heart wrenching if you didn't expect it.

[00:50:45] And I think that Roderick did it kind of a three fold like because yeah Madeline was chirping in his ear and she's obviously I think she was the you know the brains of the operation at least for the most part at least in the beginning.

[00:51:00] Yeah so he was the driver behind getting him to do those things but also a sense of desperation because he did feel like he didn't want to give up first of all I think being able to support his family but more just being able to have money to support his dream lifestyle.

[00:51:17] And just a desperation of like wanting power like he desperately wanted power and I think he was willing to do what it took to get there and Madeline just gave him a little push in the right direction.

[00:51:28] Yeah yeah because it did seem to me like his persona changed a bit over the years. He was kind of the dopey go along guy in the beginning and then he by the time he's an old man he's the heart leader.

[00:51:42] Yeah he seemed definitely a little softer in the beginning but I still think he wanted success and I think with the right voice in his ear being Madeline's I think he was easy to sway.

[00:51:58] Yeah well I guess he was the one you know who went climbing over the fence because he wanted to see what was on the other side.

[00:52:05] That's true but didn't she egg him on or encourage it? I mean I feel like she was always there saying do it do it do it like.

[00:52:13] Yeah I was saying with John on the lower hounds that she's kind of the devil in his shoulder and then Annabelle is like the angel in his shoulder. Yep that makes sense that's correct.

[00:52:25] So the production team says during the 1979 timeline the thematics and idea of being done in by one's own hubris ties back to Metzengerstein which yeah Metzengerstein is the story from which Frederick's name is taken

[00:52:44] and it's also the story where they talk about working with this chemist Metzer anyway.

[00:52:50] They say the show nods to it each time Roderick takes Dupin back to that time period so they're saying this time period it's all about how your hubris does you in you know is your fatal flaw. Yeah we see that in multiple characters I'd say. No I agree.

[00:53:06] And there's also funny Easter egg they at one point refer to a character Dr. Brevet who's named after a character and the man that was used up 1839 who yeah they keep hearing about this character and weird references like oh they will have to be assembled piece by piece

[00:53:28] Luckily there's such advancements in technology and then when Dr. Brevet shows up then it turns out that it's a war hero who he's lost so much like he's basically become Anakin Skywalker and he has to be assembled because most of his body is prosthetics.

[00:53:46] So I have to wonder if that's talking about something about this you're talking about Roderick wanting that and also about Dupin wanting to provide for their family this whole like toxic masculinity thing. Yes sorry I got distracted because my assistant wants to eat my headphones.

[00:54:08] But yes then we get to the faithful night. So do you know the story of the cast come from a month ago. I have heard of it and I don't know it.

[00:54:20] Okay so basically the narrator is just like fuck this guy for Chinato, which is funny that's Griswold's company or that's taken over is called fortune out of pharmaceuticals.

[00:54:31] But he's like I hate this guy for Chinato and they're at like it's carnival and so fortune out of his dressed like a jester just like Griswold is in this point.

[00:54:43] And he's like okay here's some a month ago which is a time of sherry and gets him a little bit drunk and says like oh I've got some good stuff come back with me to this isolated basement place.

[00:54:55] And basically it's a similar thing where he knocks him out and then fortunately wakes up to realize he's being walled in. Oh okay very similar.

[00:55:07] Yeah, they basically just took that story because it was it's one of the ones it's one of my favorites and other people have said the same thing and then when you look at the episode titles you're like oh no they didn't do the cascaba Montiato and then you watch it and you get to the end and you're like oh yeah no they did the cascaba Montiato.

[00:55:24] Maybe they didn't name it on purpose so it was a bit of a surprise when it came. Yeah, I guess so as soon as I saw him in the jester costume and then they offered him a Montiato I'm like oh here we go.

[00:55:35] But yeah the jester car moment is the one jump scare that I can think of.

[00:55:40] So it's kind of funny because that's the one I looked down for a second and realized that something happened so I made Jose rewind the show so I could see the jump scare but then once you know it's coming it's less jump scary. Did he jump?

[00:55:53] He doesn't jump. Yeah fair. But you heard like the music go me. Yeah I saw it at the top corner of my eye that something happened and I was like wait what was that? Like of course I blink at the wrong moment.

[00:56:06] Yeah, yeah it's funny what do you think about them making the central family business be pharmaceuticals given you know the saccler's of it all. Right so I mean I instantly made that connection it felt like the saccler's.

[00:56:19] I think it was fitting because a lot of the story first of all is about addiction not just about substances but I feel like being addicted to power or money.

[00:56:30] But also I also thought it was fitting because just throughout the series there was a lot of poisoning both literally and I think figuratively but a lot of literal poisoning like drugs and what they're putting in drinks or with injection and it just felt fitting that they're poisoning each other.

[00:56:48] They've also poisoned millions and millions of other people and it's one of the top stories I'm aware of of people at least in modern day of people getting an insane amount of wealth and power over just destroying so many other people and framing it in a way that's positive.

[00:57:06] So it just felt really manipulative and fitting for this family to have that be their ladder to the top. So you think that they nailed that basically. I do. I think it was an appropriate business for them to be in.

[00:57:19] Yeah I know it's the cool thing about this adaptation is it does take these stories from you know the 1830s 1840s and sets them in the modern day and if you're going to have a rich out of control family what's more topical than to make them in pharma.

[00:57:37] And it's also appropriate because they're selling opioids and there's a lot of opium references in post work.

[00:57:45] Also the drug it's called ligadome which might be a reference to a post story called legaea, which is the tale of a woman called Rowena who dies of an illness but is resurrected as legaea who was a narrator's first wife and so that's one of two stories referenced in this show about a female character

[00:58:05] being replaced by a dead wife. So hmm. Okay yeah.

[00:58:11] Yeah and do you know the speaking of wives, the young wife apparently who all the step kids wish didn't exist she straight up calls the legodome heroine she compares that she used to be addicted to heroin and now she's addicted to legodome.

[00:58:26] Right I really first of all I thought it was kind of funny I know it's sad but like how they referred to her as like it like oh why is it speaking. I was like oh my god these people are so horrible.

[00:58:37] And the worst was with Tammy and she freaks out her presentation and throws a thing and she didn't even mean to hit her but it just beats her right in the head.

[00:58:46] Oh right yeah I mean I mean she seemed to hate her the most I think she's the one I'm thinking of that was specifically like why is it talking. Yeah.

[00:58:53] Oh my god you're so horrible but I also like that you know being such a representative of the struggle with addiction was the one with the clearest head. Yeah yeah that it's true. Especially in the end. Yeah she was actually you know she was the anti-wicked stepmother.

[00:59:10] Yeah but no one saw her that way. She had all the wicked step kids. She sure did.

[00:59:16] It was also interesting when Madeline puts one of the last bricks into the tomb with Griswold it says on it written you are so small which is kind of petty but it's also what Annabelle Lee said to her at one point earlier.

[00:59:32] When she corrupted her husband and it's also it reminds me of something from Gerald's game which I watched recently. So at the end Karla Gugino's character goes up to another character that is tormented her and says you are so much smaller than I remember.

[00:59:50] So I'm wondering if this is like a Mike Flanagan idea. Okay I liked that on the brick especially because it was what was said to Madeline earlier because I think that may have shown that like Madeline comes off.

[01:00:01] Like Madeline comes off as this character that nothing affects her right.

[01:00:05] Like she's just too strong to have anything make her feel bad about anything but that must have stuck with her enough because it made her feel such a way that she knew it would make someone else also feel small. Exactly well spotted yeah.

[01:00:19] And then the next part of the story we skip to is 43 whole years later which is quote unquote two weeks ago like two weeks before the murder week and they're in the courtroom and it's so sad.

[01:00:30] This is the last time they're all alive together and it's litigation in the courtroom and that they're going to have the mole idea planted so their last dinner is tainted with that.

[01:00:44] So actually yeah we'll talk about the Pym Reaper more toward the end of the story but what did you think of Mark Hamill? What did you think of Luke Skywalker playing the dirty lawyer? I thought he was amazing.

[01:00:56] I loved everything from his demeanor to his voice like he had this gravelly raspy voice throughout it. He was just such a cold to the point but like matter of fact knew everything what to say what not to say to keep you perfectly in line.

[01:01:11] He was such a well poised well thought out character. Yeah I thought yeah he was unrecognizable in this role and indeed the voice but a lot of it.

[01:01:22] The one thing though I thought the character was great no complaints but I thought it was a lot more like telling us than showing us.

[01:01:29] So he wasn't like nothing amiss with him but he wasn't necessarily as interesting to me as some of the other members of the quote unquote usher crime family. I love that they called them that in court.

[01:01:42] I think he just kind of he gave a sort of structure and backbone to the family that they needed that they didn't have without him. Right.

[01:01:50] Like they were kind of flailing and doing their own crazy things all over the place and he kept kind of like hurting cats right is like reigning them in and he's like no no come here stop saying that come here don't say this say this.

[01:02:00] He just kind of gave them a shadowy structure voice in their ears that they needed to listen to or else they were going to get themselves in deep shit early on. How do you think that he met them wrong answers only.

[01:02:14] I think he met them when they were all at a circus together and they were accidentally seated next to each other and they were like wow look at that Jester he's so cool.

[01:02:26] I love gestures so much I love so much I want to keep one of my house forever and he's like me too. Can you have a wall installment. Like how forever are we talking. No, I have to stay alive.

[01:02:41] But to be honest I actually did think at one point later on in the series that he might be somehow connected to Verna like that she he could be someone bidding her work helping them stay in I don't know somehow I thought they were connected until I realize they weren't.

[01:02:56] Yeah, I mean it was interesting he's like basically he and Dupin are the only ones who say no to her.

[01:03:03] Yeah, yeah that was really I liked that they were both powerful in their own way and not in any way like the power that the main family was seeking. Right he's like I'm gonna be powerful and jail now. Power by my own choice. Yeah, yeah.

[01:03:18] Yeah it's interesting at this trial the there's text from the Tamerlin poem spoken which is the poem that the character Tammy's named after and it's about a war Lord's regrets. So I think we're starting to get the hint of Rotarix regrets here. Yeah.

[01:03:33] And also yeah it's interesting that the judge of the trial John Neil played by Nicholas Lee he is also named after a critic of pose so it's really got all the petty beef in here. He sure does. Okay, so we've caught up and all the backstory.

[01:03:49] So we're going to get into the episodes we're going to do each episode one at a time and just focus on the arc of the basically of the child that dies that episode.

[01:03:59] So we start with episode one of Midnight Drury now this is the one that's different from all the other ones because this is basically lining up how the story is going to go giving us the backdrop.

[01:04:10] The title comes from one of the first lines of the Raven the poem obviously we'll talk about that poem in the last episode.

[01:04:18] And yeah it opens with pink Floyd's brick in the wall, which when it opens we don't know why we see flashes that only fully make sense after the finale so we've got like the two.

[01:04:28] Brick walls we've got the one that we find out that Griswolds in and we've got the party one from the New York's Eve party in a bar that may or may not actually exist. And then we get actually right up front flashes of each kid's horrible death.

[01:04:44] Were you lost or intrigued when this started ash. I think maybe a little bit of both honestly that one of the things that caught me very first is very small but I was like laughing because all he pulls up in a Tesla attack.

[01:04:58] And I was like what the hell. What is this is he rich or the taxis rich what's happening here. Tesla taxis are pretty common here but I wonder if that was a sponsorship deal. That's funny I see Tesla's all over but I have never seen a Tesla taxi.

[01:05:13] Oh okay. But I actually forgot he showed up in a taxi at first when I first watched it and then at the end when he runs out like where's your car man. He just stuck stuck there how is he planning to get home. Hope.

[01:05:30] I guess he's a city guy.

[01:05:32] Yeah we also get in the first episode we get the setup of the two men talking which ends up being the framework it's a nod to obviously the fall of the house of us your short story which is a lot about the narrator and

[01:05:44] Roderick talking with Dupont and the narrator role but it's the whole framework device they use to tell the story where Roderick asked Dupont to come to the decaying usher house he's going to tell him everything. He calls it a confession but maybe it's also an apology.

[01:06:03] What did you think about the whole talk between the two old men did you find it riveting boring somewhere in between.

[01:06:10] I think I wasn't expecting that much overall the episode I think I felt like it didn't have like a huge wow factor like a lot of pilots have like this really grasping moment or are all kind of more exciting and it was all I thought a bit slower than I was expecting going into it.

[01:06:29] Okay. But I think it made sense more as just a straight setup episode. Mm hmm. Yeah. So if you were watching weekly do you think you would have continued after the first if we weren't doing this.

[01:06:42] I think so but maybe, maybe only because of the writer and the fact that it was based on Poe like I don't know if seeing that if I hadn't known of Edgar Allen Poe and if I hadn't seen any of the other work done by Flanagan I'm not sure if I would have been as committed to it as I was with the context.

[01:07:03] Okay. And did episode two hook you more. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, no episode to picked right up I hated Perry.

[01:07:14] I loved like the whole red like mask of the red death scene I also I read that short story too before watching that one I didn't read most of them but I did read that one. Okay.

[01:07:26] So I think that's one of the ties with that and just little things in that one like, like Perry's friend using a metal butt plug the crushes pills.

[01:07:37] That made me laugh. And the fact that like we find out early on, you know that there's like sibling, not rivalry but like this taste because Freddie was in his phone as Dick Wad and he has, it was just like a picture of his nipple or something.

[01:07:50] And so there are things that got a little more exciting and funny and also definitely gruesome in that one. So yeah, that had one of the or maybe the most gruesome finale, maybe tied with seven.

[01:08:03] But yeah, it's probably like the most direct adaptation of all the episodes because the story the mask of the red death in 1842. And it's basically about a very wealthy prince type figure called Prospero.

[01:08:19] So Perry's full name in the show is Prospero Usher goes by Perry played by Sarin Sipcota and he also was known by the Gucci Caligula in the show which I could have seen a little more Caligula from him to be honest, I wanted him to stick around and like do terrible things for another episode or two.

[01:08:38] I mean, he was planning on some terrible things like the fact that he invited Morella just out of I thought it was more out of interest but it turns out it was more out of like blackmail.

[01:08:48] Yeah, shitty like when I saw him with the camera feeds, I was like man that is this guy's fucked up. Yeah, well Verna saw it all too.

[01:08:56] So Verna in this case she was representing the death figure so yeah so Prospero and the story he throws this ball because he's like everyone's dying of this bleeding sickness.

[01:09:07] And the peasantry and he's like well not us rich folk we're just gonna party until this is all over. And they're having a grand old time until someone comes in with the mask of the red death.

[01:09:20] And so Verna is definitely playing that figure and that person brings the plague to the party. And yeah, in this case we've got death by cuddle puddle.

[01:09:31] Yeah literally a puddle though because I thought about it especially with the start of the next episode and it's like they probably melted together. Like they probably stuck together. Yeah, just being like the just being the cleanup crew that has to separate the bodies.

[01:09:47] Oh man now just burn it burn it down burn the whole thing. Yeah so the water tanks were storing some pretty shady stuff but I guess they managed to just cover that up immediately.

[01:09:59] Yeah I mean they mentioned it and I did that was messed up that Roderick knew what like what was in there. He knew that that substance was in there. I guess he didn't expect anyone to go use the building but that it was a preventable thing. Yeah, yeah.

[01:10:14] So do you think that Perry's partners deserve to go down too because I felt bad for them when he's like threatening one of them with a fork to the chin because they wanted his black headed

[01:10:25] rolls eggs from Key Haven which is apparently a real delicacy you need a license for and there's like a secret ritual to collect them. Oh wow I didn't know that. But it doesn't deserve a knife to the throat or fork to the throat.

[01:10:38] No they didn't seem like evil like he did but I mean they were kind of little leeches on this rich druggy guy so there's something to be said in that that like they're choosing to kind of latch on to someone else who's an asshole

[01:10:53] like they chose that so that speaks of their character a little bit.

[01:10:57] Alright yeah one more fun fact about the episode is that Perry, yeah it's supposed to be his nickname for Prospero but it seems to refer also to the last name that Edgar Alimpau used when he lied in his enlistment for the military.

[01:11:13] Alright so what about episode three was that that's the one that I always had trouble remembering the most. What did you think of that one? Murder in the Rue Morgue Camille's death?

[01:11:24] It was on the bottom of my list of the deaths if I had to rank them for sure I guess especially because you didn't fully see it but I mean that's where we first see Verna as another character I think or maybe no I guess we may have seen her in the first episode maybe I'm not thinking about it.

[01:11:40] Oh well yeah she was just in that lacy hood and stuff so she just looked like a woman in the first episode.

[01:11:47] Right so then in this one she was very different from the second episode so it's like okay what's going on with this person and she looks really different she has an accent now. I also this episode had that lemon speech which I thought was amazing. Yeah.

[01:12:01] Like the whole thing was so good but like just talking about how you can turn a lemon into anything and they're like you know you get a Kardashian to suck a lemon in a leaked sex tape and make millions.

[01:12:12] That speech was pretty epic so I really did appreciate that but um.

[01:12:15] Yeah that was like there's a really divisive opinion about that a lot of people think it's the best and I've read something online it was like this is the worst speech that's ever been written like okay calm down now.

[01:12:25] Oh I really enjoyed it the whole time while it was happening I was like oh yeah this is great but also that episode had another jump scare and I'd say the first one that got me because I had missed the jester one but when older Roderick was talking to Augie and the Camille like bloody Camille jumps out

[01:12:43] and Roderick throws his expensive whiskey glass which first of all that whiskey costs more than I make in like two days so can you just chill out and not throw it but yeah that one got me a bit of a jump scare there

[01:12:53] and also a good line that came from that one was Griswold, Rufus Griswold talking to them about ideas and he said an idea is nothing an idea is a fart that your brain makes. Yeah I love that line. I love that. That's such a good one.

[01:13:07] It was also one of these episodes when you know Frederick wasn't so heinous at first but I love his whole shtick with his daughter when he like apologizes for swearing and then swears again like he's like that fucking guy sorry honey that fucking guy.

[01:13:23] Yeah that made me laugh too.

[01:13:25] Yeah so this episode Murder in the Rue Morgue the story is obviously it was the first one with Dupin and Dupin he investigates a crime scene in Paris at a house on the Rue Morgue which is a street so it's not actually referring to a Morgue

[01:13:40] but a woman and her daughter named Camille have died violently and he eventually deduces that the culprit must be an escaped orangutan which explains how the body's got so mangled with one stuffed up the chimney.

[01:13:56] So in this we have Camille obviously doomed played by Kate Segal wife of Mike Flanagan and in this case Rue Morgue it's r.u.e so the Rotary Usher experimental which apparently they call the Rue Zoo and then called the Morgue because now they know better that the animals aren't just being tested on they are dying.

[01:14:21] Yeah this was another like there's a lot of messages packed into the show. Yeah they're putting a lot of details in there.

[01:14:28] But yeah Vic she's pressured to go like to press ahead unethically because she doesn't know why it is but her father thinks that this device will cure him and I guess the family of well we'll talk about their whole disease that's revealed later and whether or not that's actually I have questions about it.

[01:14:47] Learning that Victorine cuts the dead apes up to bring them out in pieces or at least that was rumored. Yeah that was like oh yeah it's okay so some gross shit happens here.

[01:14:57] Yeah so that yeah that actually seems to be a reference to the Telltale Heart which is the name of the episode where she dies and in the Telltale Heart story the character murders someone and then dismembered them and puts them in the floor. Right. Yeah.

[01:15:14] Yeah that I can't wait till we talk about that episode actually because I really liked it. Okay. I'll just one more Easter egg from this episode is Lander Pharma which is a competitor for Fortunato.

[01:15:26] It's named after Lander's cottage which was the last story that Poe ever wrote in 1849. It's really more of a like peaceful vignette inspired by his cottage where he lived with his wife and mother-in-law in New York. No not really a competitor. Okay.

[01:15:44] Episode four the black cat I don't know it's one did you think I would not like because I'm a cat lover but I kind of loved it. This one I did like but not as much as the Telltale Heart. Right.

[01:15:58] But yeah I liked the black cat especially because I think we really start to see unraveling of characters.

[01:16:05] Leo you know you see him just starting to go crazy and I really I always enjoy seeing that in scary movies because it's just if it's done the right way it really gets to me like that losing your mind thing if it's and especially when it could be from something real or paranormal so like he's doing all these drugs like there is a logic explanation for why it's happening but realistically it's not the drugs.

[01:16:29] Right. Which is crazy like the real answer is the not real answer. I start to see more of what Verna's capable of in this too. She does a lot of shape shifting in this one.

[01:16:39] Well and we got a hint of that in the last one when she became the chimp.

[01:16:43] Yeah that was the first hint and now it's like okay well now I'm gonna play but yeah so the story the black cat its story itself it's from 1843 and it's about a man who becomes an alcoholic and he starts mistreating his animals and he accidentally kills his pet cat named Pluto just like in the show.

[01:17:02] And so he ends up getting another one but he starts to hate that cat and he decides he wants to kill it but his wife gets in the way and so he accidentally kills her.

[01:17:11] And so he buries her in the wall with the cat but the cat is still alive and it yowls and leads the police to the body. That's awesome. Yeah.

[01:17:22] You know it kind of reminds me of King's pet cemetery of like carrying a cat and it comes back and it's a murder cat. I mean yeah this was so the whole thing with the eye popping out that's what happened with his cat and the story. Oh wow.

[01:17:38] Yeah that was gruesome. But it was also did you notice later when we saw the pictures when they were collecting all the pictures of Verna and the picture in the shelter of her holding the animal and she's holding a big rat not a cat.

[01:17:51] Oh no I didn't but I mean definitely noticed that she's wearing a collar. True true. Like a cat collar. Speaking of cat collar you know he kept going on about the Gucci collar but we saw the cat at the end when Leo was dead Pluto was alive.

[01:18:06] He just went away for a few days. So I missed that so the dead cat we saw was all in his imagination. Yeah it was all Verna missing with him and or his disease. Well they just got some points back from me because they didn't kill the cat.

[01:18:21] I thought that they were going to kill because the wife dies I thought that they were going to kill his boyfriend Julius. Yeah.

[01:18:27] By the way the name Julius comes from the Journal of Julius Rodman which is a fictionalized account of the first expedition across the western wilderness so nothing to do with this character but that's where the name comes from.

[01:18:40] But yeah I seriously thought he was going to get deaded so he and Pluto have one of the happiest endings. Yeah wow go Julius and Pluto. Yeah. They'll live a better life somewhere else with new people. In an apartment that doesn't have holes in the walls.

[01:18:56] Yeah oh my god he ruined that apartment so hard. Yeah. Also with a Thor hammer which is really fun. Yeah that's true because I noticed it a few scenes earlier I was like oh yeah there's a Thor hammer there and then okay yep that's set up pay off.

[01:19:12] Yeah that was great.

[01:19:14] Yeah so Leo full name Napoleon Leo Usher played by Rahul Kohli and so this character he's a gamer he's a cheater like that was actually one of the shocks for me when he's like oh you're coming up and then there's like a girl kneeling before him.

[01:19:30] Yeah and an unapologetic drug addicts he's like you know what you signed up for baby.

[01:19:36] Yeah I did like the gaming tidbits though was he the one playing was it Mortal Kombat or maybe it was the other one and also he had the Xbox XO you know triangle square little like ornament on his bookshelf.

[01:19:49] Yeah yeah he was full geek he would be the one that I would probably be into but you know he's a dick so. At least you know you'd survive.

[01:19:57] That's true I do wonder if Julius like survived in part because he didn't get close to the family like he's like I want to meet your family he's like no. And maybe that saved him in a way.

[01:20:08] Yeah I have maybe that's good then the only good thing that Leo did. So his name Napoleon comes from a character in a story called the spectacles in 1844 and it's about a guy who refuses to wear glasses because he thinks it makes him look dorky or whatever.

[01:20:28] And so he ends up marrying someone puts his glasses on and finds out that she's an old toothless woman. That's really bad eyesight. Not sure how it relates to this character I mean I guess you can see a certain vanity or certain refusing to look at reality.

[01:20:48] So but this episode had another one of the jump scares that you say you didn't see but when he was in the closet and he's like peering behind the clothes and the cat jumps out that literally like sometimes and just but that made me physically move my body.

[01:21:02] Was that when when his eye gets scratched that for me. Yeah, and which was also gruesome seeing the eye like just scratched right down the middle.

[01:21:11] That was pretty cool and this episode something that made me laugh is when his brother Freddie came and once in coke just to take the edge off he I mean he gave him what I understand to be quite a large amount of cooking.

[01:21:22] He just like left it out because he was dealing with his own shit he's like okay whatever you're dealing with not interested I'm just gonna take this and go right. Yeah, distracted. Okay, so next episode. This one I know that you like a lot the telltale heart.

[01:21:40] Yes, yes I really like this one especially because I am most familiar to the short story and I really liked how they portrayed it in this episode.

[01:21:48] Yeah, so the short story for anyone who doesn't know it's basically there's a narrator nameless as usual who lives in an apartment with an older man and he develops an irrational dislike for this man.

[01:22:02] He says it's because one of his eyes is glazed over or it doesn't really matter he just he goes at night to stare at this man asleep and then chickens out and decides to do nothing about it until one night.

[01:22:14] He goes and looks at him and the eye is open and he's like that's it you're dead kills him dismembers him buries him in the floor and starts to feel guilty so he hears the boom boom boom boom.

[01:22:29] The heart is haunting him and the police come and he's about to get away with it but he just can't take it so he confesses. So not quite the horrible end of this story actually.

[01:22:41] No, but I think the driven to insanity by a heart or heart something similar noise that is only you can hear. Yeah, yeah.

[01:22:50] I know the main death of this episode is victory in La Fruca de played by Tania Miller and the name is one of those side stories we talked about how the character in the premature burial would collect these like side stories of people who were buried prematurely.

[01:23:09] And that's the name of one of the people was a young girl of illustrious family and wealth and of great personal beauty who was buried alive by her abusive husband then exhumed and resurrected by her lover. So this version is kind of the opposite.

[01:23:24] It's almost like she tried to resurrect her lover. Yeah, well yeah instead of her lover resurrecting her she takes her love down. I see what you mean. Yeah.

[01:23:37] And her lover by the way play by Paula Nunez Dr. Alessandra Ruiz and this seems to come from a play called Palatine which involves a suicide pact set in Rome during the 16th century and Alessandra is part of a love triangle that results in murder so not a direct tie but you know death, death, death.

[01:24:05] I love the scene. I love the use of music in this in general but I loved how they use totally clips during that breakup scene. That one went over my head. Turn around. What about the Wicked Game Needle Drop in episode two by the way at the party?

[01:24:21] Nope, missed that too. That was maybe my favorite but it was cool how they changed the heartbeat sound by having that mesh involved so you hear like this extra squishing with it. Yeah it was like a squish squeak.

[01:24:33] Yeah, almost you weren't quite sure it sounded like a heartbeat but there was something different about it. Yeah, exactly. Did you notice that like all the siblings seemed to push away their partners right before they die?

[01:24:44] I did not notice but if that's the case it didn't work for most of them. I mean they still were brought down with the Usher who died for the most part.

[01:24:55] Well yeah I was thinking that it was for the most part but actually I think it's like maybe about half died? I guess yeah Camille's assistants didn't die right? Yeah.

[01:25:06] Yeah maybe it's a part of their fate then because the others weren't necessarily supposed to die it was supposed to just be the bloodline based on the pact that was made or the deal that was made so maybe it wasn't even them on purpose pushing them away for any reason but just that like they were not meant to be there at the end.

[01:25:22] Well it was like during Perry's episode Verna tried to warn Maury to go and she stayed for whatever reason but you have to think like the party that Perry took down the most people with him but that party was full of rich assholes so maybe Verna was like cashing in.

[01:25:40] I know I mean are you kidding me $20,000 just to go to the party? Yeah I don't, that's not something I'll ever even dream about in my life.

[01:25:51] But I do, I like to think that she somehow led to Maury still being alive like somehow she got a little bit far enough away like to the wall or like what I mean she was kind of found among the bodies but like when that happened I was like I really hope that she got out because I really liked Marella and then having her be the one that's like gasping and still alive the next episode

[01:26:13] and like well maybe she's still alive because Verna whispered to her. Right, right she was distracted. Which ends up being huge for the end cause like she's the one who kind of like changes the whole trajectory of that family's money.

[01:26:27] Yeah that is absolutely true, well it just takes her daughter dying. Yeah Sadzees.

[01:26:33] But she's also, I think she's interesting because she's one of the more morally grey characters because she did go to that party in the first place and lied about it and I understand her husband's a bit of a douche.

[01:26:43] Obviously by the end more than any of us realized but you know she is in some ways the more morally grey one which to me makes her more of the interesting character because it seems like all the other partners are just absolute saints like what did they put up with these people?

[01:27:00] Yeah but again just like with Perry's minions they choose this, they choose to leech on to these horrible rich people because they want to taste that wealth and power. I think that in itself makes them a little bit tainted.

[01:27:13] Yeah no that's true because yeah why would Mori be with Freddie in the first place you know? Like she's out of his league in terms of everything but name and money. Right, yeah.

[01:27:28] Well speaking of gold, episode six, Goldbug what did you think of this episode with Tammy's death episode? I loved her death honestly and it was another unraveling.

[01:27:43] It felt like it kind of went back and forth with the unravelings where there was a like a reason it could have been like with the drugs with Leo and then just kind of someone going crazy on her own which is Victorine.

[01:27:54] But then Tammy was also more of one that could have had a reason with her lack of sleep. Right.

[01:28:00] So I just I loved her unraveling I thought and it was so cringe when she was on stage like when she you know like why the fuck are you here and then it just got worse and worse and worse and it's just like oh my god this is so horrible I love it.

[01:28:15] And I loved her death I thought it was one of the prettiest scenes in the whole series with the glass falling like I thought that was just gorgeous and then the huge slate of mirror in her neck was right up my alley.

[01:28:28] Her face at the last moment when she realizes it's gonna happen. Yeah. So the episode it's called Goldbug which is a post story it was actually the most popular story apparently when he was alive because it's really about code cracking.

[01:28:42] And it's apparently because of this story that cryptology puzzles are popular in newspapers today so it was quite influential story but it has other than like that little gold bug that they show it has nothing to do with with the plot of this episode.

[01:28:58] What does have to do with the plot of this episode is another story called William Wilson from 1839 and that was inspired by for a while when Poe was young he went to boarding school around London.

[01:29:10] And this story it's about a guy named William Wilson a kid who was haunted by a doppelganger and the doppelganger keeps messing things up for him.

[01:29:20] And it finally leads to a lethal fight and as he strikes his killing blow he realizes he is looking into a mirror and he has killed himself.

[01:29:29] So that seems yeah and also her husband in this episode is Bill T. Wilson but it does seem to be relating to her. What did you think about her whole voyeur thing? What do you think that was about?

[01:29:45] It first made me laugh because honestly I don't really hear of a woman cuck but I mean I know they're out there that's you know to each their own.

[01:29:52] But I also kind of had a like a ugh because it's like oh she wants them to be romantic like that's so boring. But I think then it could show kind of her hollowness because she doesn't she's like not able to feel those emotions on her own.

[01:30:08] So maybe her only way to like get excited about it is to see other people do it like she's watching a movie almost. So it kind of gave her this emptiness that seemed fitting with her character.

[01:30:20] Yeah so she's named after the poem Tamerlane which was one of the first poems that Poe ever wrote. Yeah actually he wrote it when he was 17.

[01:30:29] Wow but it's about a conqueror who laments giving up on a true love he once fell for a peasant woman because yeah he didn't want that quiet simple life. He instead decided to go pursue his whole conquering thing.

[01:30:42] But at the end he laments and I have to give credit to Mashable for pointing out how the end really does seem to capture a character. It says I reached my home my home no more for all was flown that made it so.

[01:30:58] I passed from out its mossy door in vacant idleness of woe what was there left me now despair a kingdom for a broken heart. So about pushing everything away and finding that you have nothing left.

[01:31:16] Yeah I mean she was horrible to her husband the things she said in the end would just oh my God you're just such a terrible heartless like it's just very cold person. But she did have that moment where she felt sorry for Juno.

[01:31:31] A little bit I mean it was she wouldn't kind of admit it but also speaking of Juno in this episode one of the funniest lines I think in the whole series was when they were opening the boxes they were under their seats and Juno says watch.

[01:31:45] Minds full of poo. That got me it was so funny like she's just the cutest little character. I love that actress she was in she was in the midnight club before this so I'm glad she's doing more Mike Flanigan stuff. Would you buy gold bug products.

[01:32:04] Would you buy Tanny's goop. I'm like not even sure I know what the gold bread bug products were they're just like health products that were catered to the specific person. Yeah like do you know like a Gwyneth Paltrow's goop brand.

[01:32:19] I have heard of it I don't fully know what it is. It's like lifestyle stuff but you know very shishy and I don't even really know what goop is all I know is that like the vagina candle.

[01:32:32] Why don't you ask me again when I make way more than six figures. Yeah no they're not they're more than I make now and then I'll let you know how I feel about goop and personalized beauty products. Fair fair we are not the ushers. No.

[01:32:49] Yeah I also just want to point out this episode is there's so many like blurbs and lines are used from different poh things that I just can't fit all the Easter eggs in here.

[01:32:58] But I love they made a reference in here to dream within a dream all that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream. And I also love there's a quote from Eleonora men called me mad loftiest intelligence.

[01:33:13] I just have to admire I can't imagine how much time Mike Flanagan and the other writers spent like pouring over every corner of Po to fit this much stuff in. Yeah.

[01:33:25] There's so many details and they're so intertwined like it's not just parallel this from this story this from that it's it's really delicately done. Yeah.

[01:33:34] And then we get to episode seven which is definitely one of my tops the pit in the pendulum what did you think it was overall disturbing in in multiple ways.

[01:33:44] I mean the way that Freddie treated Marella bringing her home and just the way he treated her at home. Also I enjoyed that.

[01:33:52] I mean I guess there was some of this before now but you really got into Augie here like older Augie in the basement talking with Roderick hearing the noises that you know like kind of something in the basement and that pulls straight from the short story that this whole series is based on

[01:34:07] right. So I liked that there was this tie and I was thinking like maybe they're going to wrap it up in a way that really matches the short story which I always appreciate when they when they can bring it in close to that. Yeah.

[01:34:20] Yeah, like I said I wasn't sure at first like how this was going to match up because okay so the short story.

[01:34:26] There's a lot of guy who is a victim of the Spanish Inquisition and then it basically ends with him being laid in a pit and then there's this pendulum very much like what happens to Freddie at the end swinging back and forth only in the story.

[01:34:45] The Spanish Inquisition ends and he saved at the last moment before the rats can eat him. Oh wow.

[01:34:53] So this pit in the pendulum ending actually George R. Martin rewrote it in high school and it's one of the things that kind of inspired him to become the kind of writer that he is I talk about this more on the electric bookaloo episode with

[01:35:07] Maester Anthony that I mentioned. But yeah so we have Freddie Frederick Usher aka Frotterich I always thought that was funny. I thought that was funny too.

[01:35:18] Played by Henry Thomas and his name comes from like I said that first post short story Metzinger Stein a tale in imitation of the German and in this story Frederick is the last of his family

[01:35:33] and he's now a Baron and he's got this rivalry with this other family and there's like a prophecy that this family is going to be his ruin and then he causes a fire that kills ahead of their family

[01:35:46] but he gets an awesome new mystery horse no questions asked. But then his own house catches on fire and his awesome new mystery horse rides him right into the fire and he burns up. There's this puff of horse shaped smoke in the sky. Wow.

[01:36:03] So yeah I guess that does actually seem to jive well with our Freddie here.

[01:36:10] One thing that I noticed though I was like why is he torturing her and then I realize oh he is the inquisition in this story you know he's the one who's like tell me tell me what the password is and why you went to the party and where your ring is and look at all these pictures.

[01:36:27] So then when I saw that I was like oh well then he's going to die just before she can die and she shall be saved from the inquisition and that's what happened.

[01:36:38] The whole thing about him ripping out her teeth it seems to come from this story called Baronese which is 1835 story about a man who's neglected fiancee begins to wither away and in all ways except her teeth are still like big imperfect.

[01:36:54] She dies but her husband still obsessed and so one morning he wakes up with soil and a shovel in a bag of teeth next to him and it turns out that he had slept walk to dig up her grave pulled out all her teeth.

[01:37:08] But don't worry one of the servants saw her wandering around she was still alive. What? More being buried aliveness. Yeah yikes. Oh my goodness.

[01:37:23] I was wondering though the whole cocaine thing like okay so first of all when I watched that episode I happen to have just had like way too much coffee. So it's like really feeling is. I get it.

[01:37:35] Oh my God but yeah I was wondering if like okay why the cocaine thing I guess it explains him going off the deep end to a certain extent but also thinking maybe it's like the pit of addiction the pit in the pendulum. Oh that could be.

[01:37:50] There's also there's also the tie in from decades ago where cocaine was used by dentists and he did pull out her teeth so I don't know maybe there's some connection there. He could have at least given her a little cocaine.

[01:38:03] And by used by dentists I do mean medicinally for the patients not whether they did it on their own that's that's a separate story.

[01:38:10] Yeah but yeah it restricts blood vessels so and then we get the we get the whole I was like okay so are we is the wrecking ball going to be the pendulum but like nope they did like a whole thing where something sharp happens to fall in such a way.

[01:38:25] I'm like nope this works for me only issue is where are the rats should be rats eating him. Oh boy they probably got to him after like digging through the rubble.

[01:38:35] Yeah that was my the speech to Lenore and the speech to Freddie were my two favorite Verna speeches for opposite reasons I guess. Okay I guess yeah they felt just.

[01:38:48] I definitely thought that just most like literally speaking Freddie's death was the most gruesome and also it felt the most deserved because he kept giving more that drug that paralyzed her.

[01:39:02] Right which is horrifying like what he was doing to her and then the fact that he you know didn't realize because he was in this trance or whatever but putting it in his own drugs and ended up taking his own poison.

[01:39:15] And then he was just laying there while this happened and unable to do anything was like yes just desserts you motherfucker.

[01:39:23] Yeah so the drug it was nightshade which morella is yeah moral is a name for nightshade M O R E L morella is it's another one of those.

[01:39:35] It's a story from 1835 about a guy who has this really smart wife who was away but she has a child and she dies in childbirth and then the father doesn't want to name the child because he's so upset about it and the child becomes more and more like his wife

[01:39:53] and it's freaking him out so then at 10 years old he takes a child to get baptized and the priest says what is the child's name and out of his mouth just comes morella and then the child says I am here and then dies. Hmm yeah always fun time.

[01:40:10] But this morella usher was played by crystal ballant. And oh yeah I love her like random side hobby of is it cake. Yeah right like that show and like she's really really good at it whoever made those cakes for this show was really good at it.

[01:40:28] I mean frankly I was disappointed we didn't see more. Yeah yeah that would be fun but it's too light too light hearted and happy for this show is it an IV bag or is it cake. Or like is it a bleeding heart or is it cake.

[01:40:44] So what would be Perry's is it cake. Big dildo. He bites down on it and he's like oh damn it. Oh wait actually put some of those bird eggs in there. Yeah delicacy what a treat.

[01:41:02] Yeah so we also we get the wrap up then like this is the end of the main family deaths and so we get the two funerals which how much does it suck if your family is that rich and you still have to share a funeral with your siblings.

[01:41:18] I only thought of it as a timing but that is so funny.

[01:41:22] And the priest he mentions the imp of the perverse which is another po thing which is basically this little inclination inside of us that tells us to do the bad thing you know where you just think like what happens if I just push that person in front of me or what happens if I just like through the remote of that person's head.

[01:41:43] Drive off the cliff. It's those invasive thoughts that none of us have because we're normal. Right. But did notice like the it seemed to come back again and again with the characters in this show so I love that term the imp of the perverse.

[01:41:58] Yeah and then we also we got some more obviously po funeral poetry because that's what all the priests be spitting. We got spirits of the dead again mixed with for Annie and you have the spirits of the dead poem.

[01:42:12] And then there goes a dialogue between a dead speaker and a person visiting his grave so the spirit tells the person that those one knows in life surround a person in death as well which is definitely what's going on with Roderick. And then we get to the finale.

[01:42:28] Bum bum bum. What do you think did the finale bring it all together for you.

[01:42:36] I mean, I think it brought it together. I was looking for it to be connected to the story so I'm glad that they brought it back to that because I mean I understand there was tons of Po sprinkled in throughout and that each each episode has its own theme but where's the usher.

[01:42:50] But it was also kind of for me especially parallel to the story the short story because the short story is 15 pages I think and all but the last page are like descriptive text and then one page all this all this action happens. Right.

[01:43:07] And it felt like that kind of it was displayed similarly in the show in a way that was, it was fitting and I was also, you know, they brought back some little tidbits that I kind of forgot about like the tools he used in the sapphires and right.

[01:43:23] It felt like everything happened as it should I suppose and and as kind of you were expecting but not necessarily exactly how I expected it. Except poor Lenore played by Kylie current.

[01:43:34] Yes, that was that was a bummer I felt I knew it was coming at that point but and I was actually worried it was going to be gruesome so I was really glad when it was a more sentimental moment.

[01:43:46] Mm hmm. It was it was a beautiful speech. The one the Verna gave her about just knowing that she goes out with her. At least she knows that her life affects millions affects the world in a good way you know, yeah, and to counteract what her family is done.

[01:44:03] But also terrifying to think of it from Lenore's perspective. She doesn't know she's about to die and she's like why is this woman telling me this like it's kind of hopeful it's like oh that's amazing all these good things are going to happen my mom's going to get better blah blah blah and then just boom.

[01:44:16] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, wait this is the kindest death that she could give.

[01:44:22] It was it was very kind. I mean Verna is what like a devil or demon she was right full she was literally tearful when she was talking to her she felt sorrow which I didn't know that a being of that type was capable.

[01:44:32] Yeah, I mean I wasn't completely surprised just because of the way she was with each person. She's like you know you or you could do the right thing oh no you're just going to go off the deep end okay. Fredrick when you pulled her teeth that was it.

[01:44:46] Yeah, yeah I guess that's sure it's it's interesting to give slightly human characters to a evil character. Yeah but is she evil? Is she evil I don't know.

[01:44:57] Well you think of her as like the as like a devil making you make a pact with the devil right you sell your soul to the devil like that's kind of how I saw her because of the deal she made with young Roderick and Madeline.

[01:45:12] So I guess not necessarily evil maybe just fulfilling her duty but her duty like she works in hell or if there is a hell you know I'm not religious.

[01:45:20] Yeah yeah you know I was thinking of her as like an angel of vengeance at first but then of course there's the death analogy and the mask of the red death.

[01:45:30] I don't know she's obviously older than humanity we know that her name is an anagram for Raven and we see her especially at the end they're showing her with these tops that have like the black feathered sleeves. That did a lot of Raven imagery.

[01:45:47] Yeah do you think she was the best character slash performance or do you reserve that for someone else? No I would give it to her I think her she had a an awesome variety in the instances of her character I wanted to say characters but it's all her.

[01:46:03] Yeah so she and she just yeah she had a depth that made me really feel with her like even though she did all these gruesome things I was on her side and I was just eager to see more of her so I really did enjoy.

[01:46:16] I think she did an awesome job in that role that actress.

[01:46:19] Alright so we haven't talked about that bar outside of time and space speaking of Verna so this seems to come from Poe's poem Dreamland where the lines say I have reached these lands but newly from an ultimate dim tool from a wild weird

[01:46:38] land that life sublime out of space out of time so ultimate tool it's Latin meaning extreme limits of travel and discovery now I do wonder if the poem is talking about death and I should point out that Poe he does seem to have been suicidal at least once in his life after an engagement

[01:47:00] and he didn't work out so what do you think what did you make about this bar outside of time and space as Verna put it.

[01:47:08] I at first I did think the bar was real so but it makes sense as you got to know the story more and realize that Verna is more of an ephemeral being that it would not be real.

[01:47:20] I don't know it was an interesting unassuming kind of place for people to go in and make a deal that will change their lives like that.

[01:47:29] I found it pretty interesting that's where they ended up and they thought it was a way to escape something bad that they had done but it ended up leading them into maybe the worst thing they did I mean arguably the worst thing they did for the rest of their lives because they doomed

[01:47:44] Yeah entire bloodline she said bloodline which I have to so my Nigerian friend Dr. Precious Austin she also known as her royal bubbliness you've heard me refer to her before this podcast.

[01:47:56] She was talking about that there's a lot of Nigerian stories of trading blood lineage for wealth and rituals.

[01:48:03] So they have a priest figure they call the native doctor or the Baba Lawo who you can say OK they'll give you an early death or do manage a generation or say you only have limited children so she was saying as soon as those terms came up I was like I knew what bloodline meant.

[01:48:23] Now can I ask you Ashley would you rather a short wealthy life or a long struggling life.

[01:48:31] After seeing this episode I want to say long struggling episode ever seen this show but no if someone had just asked me that I'd probably say short wealthy life because you know life's really hard and if it's a lifetime of struggling and I got to choose between like a shorter amount of bliss.

[01:48:48] I might choose the bliss but then I guess it's like what is wealth you know the whole thing that Dupain says at the end because when I think of longer life I guess what I would most want is to like I just think I could learn so much more I could see so much more.

[01:49:03] Maybe that's what wealth is to me but I don't know I don't know if that's allowed to me if I'm supposed to be.

[01:49:10] It seems like you may have some poetic justice of interpretation here based on the story if we're talking wealth in that way if wealth is more than money then sure I would take still a short wealthy life yeah. Yeah now I'm getting upset.

[01:49:28] Okay so one thing I didn't necessarily understand is like Madeline she was pressuring Roderick to kill himself and it was like the implication was that if he dies it saves him all but how would that work?

[01:49:40] I didn't take it to mean he saved them all I thought it was just that it would end the terror that they were going through and save her that it would like break the pact because maybe she felt if they didn't die together then it would be broken.

[01:49:55] I mean I think she was in denial because Verna was very clear in this in together out together.

[01:50:01] She was but they were definitely in denial like they admitted to kind of forgetting she existed although I guess Roderick said he kind of knew the whole time that this is what he was getting himself into but maybe they not on purpose kind of put it in the back of their mind and

[01:50:16] chose or maybe on purpose actually chose to forget that that happened as like in a denial sense but I think I don't know I thought she was hopeful that doing that would kind of break the promise they had made so many years ago.

[01:50:30] Yeah I guess that must be what she thought but I'm like I just wonder I have to think that that's not true because then if that is true or if like if he could have saved Lenore by killing himself he would be terrible not to have done that.

[01:50:45] Yeah it's definitely not true it's because I mean I mean you see it like she brings him back from what should have been certain death the whole bottle of pills and an entire bottle of whiskey. And Verna's like nope.

[01:50:58] Yeah she's like oh you're fine you're just gonna blip a little bit and you're fine like wake up snap to it boot and reboot. Booting rally baby. Maybe it was just a selfish last kind of like a last straw like let's just try this one thing for me.

[01:51:15] Yeah selfish thing.

[01:51:18] Yeah I mean she did seem to care about Lenore Lenore by the way played by Kylie Curran and she called her grandfather Grandpas which is I thought was kind of funny but I looked it up and it's actually that's a it's a name that's used for like several different types of deadly animals like the orca and

[01:51:36] like a particular type of scorpion. Yeah hi ghost. Every single episode he has to be on it. But it's also it's a type of whaling boat the one that is used in the narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym which you I swear I'm not hurting him.

[01:51:57] He's not even in the room. No he's downstairs.

[01:52:03] Well so I can say while while he's meowing when when she said or when whoever said that Lenore used to call him I think it was the Grandpas the Grandpas or maybe just Grandpas but I thought it sounded like Krampus and I just thought of that. Yeah.

[01:52:20] I was like it's like the horror grandfather. Which I mean yeah he kind of is. No it's fair yeah you're the grandpa who might kill me you know. Cut me out of your will potato potato potato. Potato.

[01:52:33] And yeah I did think it was sad though that at the end so he's getting these texts at the end and it turns out it's just never more over and over which is great in terms of tying it back with the poem.

[01:52:43] But what kind of dark shit was she texting that the chatbot came out with this or is madline just not nearly as good as at her job as we thought. Yeah, I don't know that I thought it actually came from stuff Lenore had said or written,

[01:52:59] which I mean it would make sense based on what Madeline was putting together with the algorithm, but I took it as more of a glitch, like a glitch in the matrix kind of thing where

[01:53:10] it was just, I mean it was him hearing the raven saying never more over and over again, like he's trying to get it to answer something different or he's hoping, like in the short story he's trying to get the poem, trying to get the raven to answer something

[01:53:23] different. He keeps asking questions and it's just the same and in this show like he's hoping maybe we don't, he doesn't admit it but like hoping that the text will say something different

[01:53:33] that she'll actually somehow be alive, but it's just the same answer over and over again because she is never more, everyone's never more and you're about to be never more. Yeah, so they talked about it on the production as if like this sort of chat bot thing would

[01:53:49] entomb her somehow, but for me I thought at the beginning when Madeline was saying I want immortality to Verna and then you know seal the deal with the kiss, I thought that oh so this AI chat bot that's

[01:54:02] going to be her immortality because it's like a form of that in terms of both being able to store something of your personality but also in terms of like having her be remembered.

[01:54:13] What do you think? Do you think it's better it didn't work or do you wish it had? I think it's better that it didn't work because she doesn't deserve immortality straight up. But what about it? Also well I'm just saying Madeline doesn't deserve immortality so for

[01:54:28] it to have worked then she could have done it with her own consciousness but I think part of the reason we know it didn't work is that all the typos like it wasn't just the word never

[01:54:38] more over and over it was each spelled differently and like you know shifting over and yeah so I think it's like she almost had it like she had something there but it didn't work and so she

[01:54:50] will not live forever because well first of all she shouldn't but second of all whatever everything she tried and all the confidence she had in herself in the end it was broken just like her. So are you team you wouldn't live forever if you've been the chance?

[01:55:05] No absolutely never I have always felt this way I would never wish that upon myself. I feel it feels to me more like a curse than anything else especially if I'm the only one

[01:55:13] living forever that's a curse I would wish upon no one to see everyone around you just consistently. What if it's you and Zelda and Jose gets like a hundred years?

[01:55:25] Okay can we just tell the people that Zelda is my cat that I'm obsessed with and if it were me and Zelda that might change things but no realistically even me and one other person you forever that's a forever of making friends love relationships everything that just cycles

[01:55:42] and dies and also like the earth right now is scary the world is scary and it's happened before and it's happened before that and it will happen again it's just cycles of like I've just one lifetime

[01:55:53] is already hard enough man. No fair I mean I guess for me it comes down to I always think back to when I was reading Faust in high school and I was like oh this guy sold himself to the devil for

[01:56:05] you know unlimited learning I was like finally here's a pack to the devil I understand and I think that's what kills me is just like I just never have enough time to see and do

[01:56:16] and think about all the things that I want to and if I just had more time I definitely wish I had more time maybe a few hundred years oh god also think of our aching bodies yeah okay yeah

[01:56:27] obviously that needs to be part of the deal we need to get this point our arms are falling off our tits are falling off like we need a little like a last gin and uh you know some oil for the joints

[01:56:40] right or just become a robot right with your mind yeah okay sure because then like give me my body from when I was like 24 yeah how do we get that back yeah exactly none more in magic not more science fiction so yeah so speaking of deteriorating bodies

[01:56:58] we've got Roderick seeing specters of death so he says this might have to do with this like cataclysm which is it's a real thing it's a rare inherited type of vascular disease this is

[01:57:12] Wikipedia here a disease of the blood vessels such as arteries and veins that can cause dementia cataclysm stands for cerebral autosomal dominant arteriopathy with subcortical infarcts and lukens lukens lukens um philopathy yep luko luko encephalopathy and okay I know this one

[01:57:36] luko encephalopathy and I'm done luko encephalopathy there you go there you go there we go that's uh you get it anyone who can say that gets 10 points but yeah cat some points for griffin doll 10 points for uh pronounce the door oh raven claw uh uh

[01:57:59] womp verna larker I was just trying to make a new one anagram yeah I know but okay cataclysm that's easier so mom had it did they all have it because they were all

[01:58:13] seeing things so like what if the verna thing wasn't actually real but they all had like a mass hallucination hmm I'm trying to think of how I can disprove that I mean some of them had

[01:58:25] legit reasons like we talked about with either drugs or lack of sleep you could argue that victorine had it from stress people can go crazy from stress and she was being literally pressured to save her

[01:58:38] father I don't know did she know that though she did at one point right um didn't he admit it was for him I think at the last moment with the human trials maybe when he was pressuring for that

[01:58:49] so it's interesting and also they're all I would argue they're all too young for that to start did the wikipedia say when it starts to hit because you know he was in his 70s but they were

[01:58:59] yeah you would think it would be an older thing um although his mom was younger than that at least I don't know yeah and obviously it doesn't all hit within the same week right yeah the timing is

[01:59:12] pretty sus but I do like when they told the line like where it could be it could be supernatural or it could be just all coincidence you know yeah do you think okay so it seemed like they were all

[01:59:26] figments of his guilty conscience in a way you know that they were his telltale heart the what was haunting him um it felt like he felt like he was responsible for their deaths and obviously

[01:59:37] by the end we find out about the pact so I guess it's true but then it also felt like even without the pact do you think he's responsible for the deaths of his kids like if you look at

[01:59:49] Perry's death Camille's death you could potentially argue that he is because he raised them in such a way that they were so disconnected from like reality they were so absorbed in their wealth and

[02:00:04] never had to really fend for themselves never had to build their own lives they just kind of like suckled on the teat of his money and his power yeah um and that could have and also I think he

[02:00:16] just wasn't he didn't seem like a super present father I mean he had six kids with five wives wives I'm like what are you Bob Marley like I mean that's like settled down I mean I guess a lot of

[02:00:26] them were just right not wives just uh here and there's yeah so but that in itself like maybe he led to their their deaths in a way just by not giving them really any sort of start of a good

[02:00:40] life and they were kind of always going downhill right from the start yeah so indirectly I mean but I was thinking like with a lot of them like with Perry you know because he was storing the

[02:00:51] chemicals on the roof um like with Camille I don't know I guess because she was working for him in some way obviously with Vic with the whole pressure with the monkeys and and the fact that he was he

[02:01:05] blamed himself for pitting them against each other growing up right so that's part of it yeah that's how Camille died I guess but then what about like Tamerlane she Tammy she didn't have a direct no

[02:01:17] wasn't from me she was actually trying to break away from him like make her own name yeah I think Tammy she really she's the William Wilton she really stabbed herself in the mirror you know

[02:01:29] she's like let me hire someone to replace me and then get jealous about the fact that I have hired someone to replace me right but even the one who was meant to who is they said would replace him

[02:01:41] you know Fraudrick his death was more about jealousy and like going insane because of I mean I think maybe a mix of grieving and jealousy because his he was upset about what happened to Morella

[02:01:53] yeah I mean I don't think he could have run the company though he seemed the softest out of the six of them I agree he was kind of like the douchiest yeah he was just a little like me like

[02:02:04] you're not really a powerhouse like the rest of your siblings yeah well Perry's not a powerhouse he's just a power player but yeah the rest of them were pretty like strong headed when he

[02:02:13] was just kind of I felt a bit bad for Perry the fact that like his father couldn't see that you know he's from a younger generation and he did see a real viable business plan in this it's just as

[02:02:26] legit as Leo saying I'm going to make a video game company yeah yeah I think probably at that point if I had to speculate on this I would think that Roderick's heard enough business ideas from

[02:02:38] his other five children and at this point when someone's like let's make a sex club he's like okay I'm done with this but even though it may have been a good idea it may have made a lot of money

[02:02:48] and especially from his generation Roderick's generation like the least prominent sounding business idea that he's probably heard a billion yeah well speaking of things Roderick hears he hears the bells the bells you know that poem it does sound familiar could you remind me it's

[02:03:05] like the it starts out like really soft with like the ringing of the tinkling of the you know and then by the end it's like the clamorous groaning of the bells yeah but it was this yeah it was a

[02:03:17] cool little Easter egg in there and another one was the cognac so this is a real cognac the one that Roderick keeps trying to get dupe to drink the Henri IV du gignon heritage cognac

[02:03:33] from Grand Champagne believed to be the world's most expensive in real life Roderick says four million at auction and indeed it's from 1776 aged a hundred years in barrels like encrusted in diamonds and gold but does it taste like shit is my question 1776 like I know cognac

[02:03:52] doesn't age when it's bottled but that's going to be fragile and I mean I'll try it I would taste it would you taste it I would taste it with reservation I could not believe that DuPan

[02:04:04] didn't want to at least have a sip but I also wondered if that somehow saved him morally wait he didn't have any sips did he because he was holding he kept saying no and he was holding it and then

[02:04:14] he put it back hmm I guess I just assumed he was sipping it because he was holding it but maybe I didn't actually see him bring it to his mouth hmm I mean yeah I would try it I don't I'm more

[02:04:23] of a bourbon girl if I'm gonna drink whiskey so it's probably not sweet enough for me especially a hundred years old or more okay so if you have to choose between the two different

[02:04:33] liquor wines brandy and a montillado which would you try the sherry or the brandy I'd probably want to try the brandy because it sounds like a little more bang for your buck it's a lot of buck

[02:04:46] and but if I and if I hate it I want to take a very small sip of something that I'm like a little I don't know like sherry is just a sweet dessert wine right so I'd rather well

[02:04:55] not always it can be dry yeah a monta no desert wine is the point yeah a monta auto is um it has it grows with like it's called a floor like this yeasty stuff on top and that sort of has like this

[02:05:09] nutty flavor hmm I'm probably yeah I would go for that but yeah so the cognac I think that it's probably a reference to have you ever heard of the cognac toaster no it was someone who for

[02:05:22] was actually probably two someone's who for 60 years every January 19th on Poe's birthday would go to his grave in Westminster Hall and Burying Ground in Baltimore and would leave a bottle of cognac usually

[02:05:33] or some other liquor uh would toast the grave leave the rest of the bottle and three red roses in a distinctive arrangement so yeah they kept this up from probably from the 1930s until 2009

[02:05:48] and then they just stopped showing up so at some point there was something about like it being handed over to next generations of probably the original person died and then the second person just didn't take it as seriously and eventually stopped so in 2016 the Maryland Historical Society

[02:06:04] they selected a new toaster to revive the tradition so Ashley what would you want your toaster to leave on your grave every year like the dad and me is hearing toaster like the

[02:06:16] appliance and I want to say a piece of bread but okay so what would I want to leave on my grave is this so sappy that I'd want them like to leave a picture of them and me

[02:06:30] like each person because I have a big social life and a lot of friends and if everyone came and had like a memory of me and they left just like a picture of us on the grave

[02:06:39] oh that's nice what about you um I don't know maybe like instead of leaving something on my grave like plant something nearby like a really pretty flowers or cool tree weeping cherry wait can we

[02:06:55] backtrack a second though about leaving what cognac around it made me think of mom and dad's story of when they and the neighbors would like cycle through that bottle of tequila with a worm in

[02:07:08] and they would leave it in each other's places and hide it from each other and like whoever found it had to hide it in the next neighbor's house yeah because it had the worm in the bottom I

[02:07:17] remember that I was uh I was old enough to like be tagging along to those parties and to I thought it was really funny to like try to hide it in someone's liquor cabinet well

[02:07:27] they distracted them yeah I love those games might we still do it with a stuffed animal when when my friend mariel comes over I know that baba's going to be hidden somewhere crazy

[02:07:38] one time she put it in the lamp though that was a bad idea because you know oh no it got burned it didn't but I could have turned the lamp on yeah yeah otherwise she picks really good good places

[02:07:49] now you know my cats do that all the time but they just don't um they don't tell me it's just a really funny game where they just hide things yeah but do they hide dead animals

[02:07:59] like Leo's fake cat I know luckily they don't go outside or they would yeah so speaking of death so we got verna what did one of my favorite things and they put a clip of it

[02:08:13] online is watching carla gujino tell that poem the city in the sea during that last scene about when you know when she says I'm older than humanity and talking about it almost sounds

[02:08:25] like Atlantis being swallowed by its own hubris in a way and she says that that poem is meant to offer the clarity that he's asking for do you think it does I don't know if I would have caught that

[02:08:38] since I didn't catch that it was specifically I mean I knew it was a poem but I didn't recognize the poem but that would make sense that in the end she's saying you know this is what brought

[02:08:48] you here and here's you did this to yourself I thought it was interesting though yeah so when one of the last people that she meets is Arthur Pym Mark Hamill again and yeah so he his character

[02:09:02] comes from this uh this book that I said the only complete novel that Poe made and you basically heard like the whole summary of the novel you know when they talk about Arthur Pym's story in this

[02:09:14] where he was a stowaway and they do this trip around the world the trans globe expedition was real by the way in the 80s but this is obviously well before that and it is funny by the way so apparently

[02:09:29] Mark Hamill improvised a throwaway line where he says I'm having Richard Parker for dinner and in the novel Richard Parker is a name of a cabin boy who draws a short straw and gets

[02:09:41] eaten and it also reminded me of life of pie which I always interpreted as having a like cannibalistic twist at the end but apparently not everyone interprets it that way right but yeah that line was

[02:09:52] improvised by Hamill so but he was an even crazier thing so okay so there's this novel that was published in 1838 that has this young guy Richard Parker getting getting eaten and then

[02:10:03] in 1884 so 46 years after that novel was published there were four men who were yeah they were set adrift after their boat sank and they were shipwrecked without food and they ended up needing to cannibalize

[02:10:18] to survive too and they ended up killing and eating a 17 year old cabin boy named Richard Parker poignant and yeah nobody notices for like a century until descendants of this wrote a letter and

[02:10:32] said hey wait a minute this is a really weird coincidence. Yikes wouldn't want to draw that short straw yeah so then we get to the grand finale of it which is really like as you said before is

[02:10:45] really the biggest thing to come from the fall of the house of usher is the actual fall of the house of usher yeah I did miss having like that grand building but I do think they at least made it

[02:10:58] look the way that it should and it is interesting they during this conversation Roderick he keeps telling Dupin that Madeline's in the basement and like mother like daughter it's a live burial Madeline did not get her wish for immortality it's funny that so she ends up getting mummified

[02:11:18] which in a way there is a post-short story called some words with a mummy which is about these archaeologists they end up finding a mummy and they ended up unwrapping the mummy and he's just fine and he chills and they have like a whole conversation about their lives

[02:11:33] and then one of the guys goes home goes to bed wakes up in the morning and was like you know what the world sucks I just want to be mummified for a few hundred years. Okay but then a lot

[02:11:47] of the stuff about Madeline collecting these like Egyptian death relics seem to be a reference to that especially since one of the death relics are stones that were put in the eyes of the mummy

[02:11:58] right so mummies are like you know it's a way to be immortal that's a good point that she did kind of get a sense of immortality with this slight mummification but it also like didn't work right

[02:12:09] because she was still alive and also I was I don't know I guess not surprised but in the end when Verna was placing the objects on the gravestones hers were the sapphires so they didn't stay

[02:12:19] in her body you know they were removed so she didn't get her full glorious mummification that was intended. She lost her eyes for what? She did which is a little ironic because she asked for Verna's eyes

[02:12:33] in like episode four or five or something saying like bring me her eyes as the receipt of her death. Yeah absolutely we're seeing the same thing like there's definitely something with Poe and eyes

[02:12:45] but yeah I'm not sure what the through line is with that in here. Yeah the cat's eyes and that. Yeah that one straight out of the black hat book but yeah there's got to be other Poe stories with

[02:12:56] eye stuff in it that I just don't know I can't know all of them I try so who do you think's worse Roderick or Madeline? That's a good question when they were younger when

[02:13:09] they were in the bar and making the deal with Verna I was actually kind of surprised by Madeline seemed more hesitant to make the deal and especially with her admission of like admitting

[02:13:20] I don't have kids this isn't like my decision right and she seemed tear more tearful and more worried about making it but then other than that I'd say she was the driver yeah but it's almost

[02:13:35] like she had to be because especially growing up when she did like if you didn't stand for yourself you would be just a secretary blowing your boss like so it sucks it's kind of like she might have

[02:13:49] been worse in my eyes but because she had to be yeah because otherwise like it's like a woman even nowadays sometimes like a woman who's assertive can be seen as a bitch whereas a man who

[02:14:01] speaks the same way is just seen as a normal leader yeah so it's like we have to kind of demand that power but in doing that we become less or like evil or not evil but like bad in a way

[02:14:16] yeah not our best and not what we would ideally want to be yeah maybe maybe I mean I guess you could argue that he's worse because he literally chose he had children alive and said yes like

[02:14:28] that's fine they can die when they're 50 he literally chose to kill his family so that they could be rich for a bit of time so I short well torn but I guess I would say him because she

[02:14:39] kind of had to be who she was I would say yeah I mean I guess also with the business analogy she gave up having kids and he was just like nah just gonna go ahead and do that um true why do you think he

[02:14:53] did that like do you think he was just in denial or he was like you know better short wealthy life for who cares I think it's a combination of a power play and just complete laziness and lack of care

[02:15:08] one is like yeah legacy like let's spread my seed let's get my name out there like let's keep my evolutionarily speaking let's keep my bloodline alive both so he thought kind of

[02:15:19] but also just like it doesn't matter what I do there are no repercussions I can do anything and have sex with anyone then he tries to act all magnanimous he's like well because my dad was a dick

[02:15:30] I'm gonna make sure all my kids are treated equally except Perry yeah yeah but equally like they were all they were all trying to get him to approve them like I think each of them their ventures

[02:15:43] were like so dad will want in part of it was like so I don't know so he chooses me and not in a good way but like they're all kind of seeking his approval in a way so I don't think any of them

[02:15:52] felt like he was necessarily a good father yeah so uh what did you think of the final scene when Dupin runs out and we see the house crumble um that's what I hoped for you know I've mentioned

[02:16:05] a couple times that I really I like when the show or movie matches the book as closely as it can and I know how hard that can be especially with longer stories this is not a long story

[02:16:16] but I found it's I mean it's fitting not only in the name of the show but like the family itself had to fall and honestly for like populations to survive and to see it physically

[02:16:30] happen yeah I mean it resonated with me yeah no I thought my only disappointment as I said is that like it was in that grand scale house but whatever I guess we've seen that before yeah

[02:16:43] but I thought it was well handled and we have we have more survivors than I expected so it's not just the narrator aka Dupin surviving and he's got a he's got a nice ending you know he loses his

[02:16:56] job but he also stops being a shit dad and he realizes that his wealth is his family so he's kind of got maybe the happiest ending in a way I would say oh yeah I would agree with

[02:17:07] you him or morella well she might be scarred for life and lost her daughter right and the daughter loss is huge you know no parent will ever ever get over the loss of a child but also I know I mean I

[02:17:21] don't know I have heard and read about burn victims and the pain they go through and how long it can take and she'll I know she's never gonna look the same like she probably will always have this

[02:17:29] kind of appearance that everyone will know she's literally been like burned alive yeah um so I think the rest of her life is probably difficult and she's making the best of it with what she can do

[02:17:41] with her you know raising money and doing what she did fund raising and everything but I think that's a tough life yeah I mean yeah she's got the foundation and her daughter's name that's great

[02:17:52] but I noticed by the way both her and Juno their recovery like so Juno was getting off the the lego dome and had to be weaned off over and it turns out it's three years for

[02:18:05] both of them so I was wondering I know Poe was about three years old when he was orphaned I don't know if this three years it's just a coincidence it's a nice number that's a good point when I heard the

[02:18:17] three-year thing with Mori I knew it sounded familiar but it didn't quite make it click that that was Juno's recovery time as well so it would make sense that I don't know well it's not

[02:18:29] recovery for Poe if that's when his mom died but that it's a significant amount of time for him so by the way yeah Juno played by Ruth Codd she was kind of like a low-key really great character

[02:18:41] she deserves better than this family and I'm glad she's gonna get it her name comes from Eureka which was 150 page essay or as Poe called it a prose poem on the material and spiritual

[02:18:55] universe so basically in this in this essay Poe predicted the Big Bang theory like eight years before they came up with it before it happened before it happened he was like there's gonna be a

[02:19:09] universe it's gonna blow your mind literally do you ever think about like what if there was like a little particle universe like inside you and just whip and blew up or with just one of your

[02:19:23] farts starts a universe yeah you never know but no I mean I think he's got a few things where you know this was a clever cookie you know he uh he just he looked in the sky and there was a

[02:19:38] oboe's paradox which was the question of why given the vast number of stars in the universe is the night sky dark and he looked up there and he inferred like oh because it's expanding so it

[02:19:48] might must have started as a singular particle and I just yeah I find that so very impressive the other cool thing well I don't know cool is a weird word for this but the other uncanny thing that

[02:20:01] he predicted in a way what's he had this story called The Businessman in 1940 and there's an unnamed narrator again who suffers a traumatic head injury and ends up leading to a life of

[02:20:14] like sociopathic crime and outbursts and you know some neurologists have looked at that and were like this looks a lot like the you and I both studied psychology so we studied about Phineas Gage and

[02:20:29] that was an accident in 1848 eight years after he wrote this where an iron spike went through the skull of a railroad worker and his personality changed drastically and it seems to be quite

[02:20:41] a lot like the short story of his so Poe was just remarkably insightful that's impressive knowing that knowing when he was alive there's not so much science to go on they had different limited science

[02:20:54] and for him to have these ideas is pretty cool yeah his inference was uncanny yeah so survivors practice survivors we obviously have Pym he's the only other no to Verna goes to jail do you

[02:21:08] think he made the right choice or do you think like he could have taken you know his last years in luxury I think he made the choice so it was the most fitting for his character because he's not

[02:21:19] going to be swayed by anyone even a devil or demon yeah he showed himself the strongest character in the end in a way and throughout I mean he was he's a firm character unwavering

[02:21:32] firm is a good word yeah and I guess yeah Bill and Leo's guys are just okay Leo's Julia Julius gets live happily ever after with the cat Bill gets to live happily ever after with a woman who wants to

[02:21:47] have dinner with him herself presumably lucky guy and do you think Camille's assistants are dancing on her grave if they're smart they just turned their back and didn't look they turned away and

[02:22:04] didn't look back because that's like a tainted pool that you don't want to dip your toe back in then later how did you meet each other wow we were having three sums and we decided we just

[02:22:15] wanted to cut out the middle and that's when you say at work everyone's got not everyone a lot of people have those dirty work stories we don't know how to delve into them

[02:22:27] so one of the assistants by the way she keeps saying Toby damn it to him and that's because that's actually a reference to her character name in a story uh never bet the devil your head

[02:22:37] where Toby damn it he has too much provado and he does not heed the title of the story and he loses his head spoiler alert so okay well here's a question do you

[02:22:50] have the urge to rewatch this do you think like you'll rewatch this next year or anything like that i think that i would not because it wasn't shocking there weren't really twists for me

[02:23:05] necessarily or at least ones that were big enough for me to be like oh i want to see how this looks now that i know that okay like i kind of always thought verna had to be some sort

[02:23:15] of non-human being i kind of figured how it would end because of the short story so i don't know that i like usually if i'm rewatching for me it's something that was

[02:23:27] i feel like there are a lot of details that i would appreciate more on the second watch but for me to be able to appreciate those details with this show i think i'd have to read

[02:23:37] the poh stories and poems and that's the other question do you after this have the urge to read more poh yes okay that is a yes um and that's the thing like we hose was getting rid of

[02:23:49] some books and was thinking like oh i don't read this and was going to get rid of like a full anthology of pose short stories and poems and i was like whoa what are we doing with that that's not

[02:23:59] and then it was before we even talked about doing this podcast episode so i was really grateful to have it especially when you reach out to me and now that i do

[02:24:08] have it i'd like to start with just reading the stories that at least were the episode titles just to think back on what the episode was and where there were connections and what we've talked

[02:24:18] about today yeah but in general i've always been intrigued by poh and have always liked him i've just never like had it readily available or so i thought i didn't realize it was in the other

[02:24:28] room this house i live in um so yes i do think i would read more poh absolutely okay um yeah i definitely i'm glad that it got me reading more poh again like now as soon as i knew this was coming

[02:24:41] i started reading it again and i did the whole you know uh recording for the book club so i've read now the fall of the house of the usher better than i've ever read it before deeper anyway um

[02:24:55] and yeah so i'm grateful for that and i think that also made my uh watch experience more enjoyable because i was just like playing spot the details uh which made me appreciate how finally woven this all

[02:25:08] was how well crafted it is yeah all right well that's a good spot for us to pause for a break we'll be back in a moment with a lightning round of our final thoughts plus news of what's ahead

[02:25:20] for this feed and beyond the old old dream has caught you seem to feel a wet stream with a sinister gleam and you wake with a swing from a horrible dream all the home to the house all right and we're

[02:25:32] back just to wrap up our discussion of the fall of the house of usher i've got a lightning round of questions for you ashley don't think just answer favorite episode the telltale hurt all right

[02:25:47] i think i'm gonna go with seven actually with uh the pit in the pendulum um favorite memorable lines or jokes um oh you said not to think about it how about watch mine's full of poo that's a good

[02:26:03] in the same scene where she gets beamed in the head i mean she doesn't deserve it but it was still funny uh best death freddy's yeah with the pendulum yeah being paralyzed and having that should happen yeah well that felt like i wanted it

[02:26:21] the most but perry's was also pretty cool death he was my second it was gruesome i mean it was a great second episode like just uh really oof yikes acid rain yeah it took me a couple days to be able to

[02:26:34] watch and i kept seeing on twitter people were like end of the second episode whoa also the next episode they did they were looking at a zoomed in picture of perry on this like massive tv on the

[02:26:47] wall like why are you that zoomed in on your dead burned brother yikes yikes yikes yeah they just really didn't care no they were they're very um with emotionless about it yeah all right so speaking

[02:27:01] of the six emotionless kids which of them had the least deserved death of those six hmm i maybe want to say victorine because she was honestly trying to help people okay um

[02:27:15] yeah i mean i guess i guess i have to reluctantly go with you even though i don't know she's not necessarily the one i would have who is your best and worst usher i mean i think madeline was the

[02:27:30] best usher like yeah she was a bad guy but she was crafty like she was really good at what she did she was a powerhouse like i was proud of her and a lot of what she said and stood up for herself

[02:27:40] worst usher i don't know leo kind of sucked oh i loved leo i was considering you for the best he just didn't seem like a good person to anyone to me i mean all he did that was good in my eyes

[02:27:53] was give his brother coke when he asked well or allowed him to take it while he was like busy freaking out about not having stuff in the tub um yeah i'm gonna go with for worst i'm

[02:28:04] gonna go with frederick frederick yeah he was just so wimpy yeah but then like i hate that type where you know oh i'm being so nice and fake and then for the moment something goes against me i'm evil

[02:28:17] and literally torturing you i think that he let the drugs like he was kind of grieving took too many drugs and got crazy from that yeah i guess so but that's that's hey you went for leo

[02:28:31] so yeah right all right all right he all he ever did was take too many drugs and he was shitty he cheated and yeah he didn't actually kill the cat he didn't actually he

[02:28:42] thought he did and he thought he found it logical fair he's like oh that happened shit yeah fair fair fair all right um most disposable usher most useless usher oh yikes i mean tammy yeah definitely she was just kind of a side piece like of the family

[02:29:05] yeah i don't know i mean yeah you're scoffing at perry's club party thing but tammy just literally sells you know bullshit on the internet yeah no she's and it's she's also the only one who was

[02:29:17] not trying to like help she wasn't trying to do anything for the family i don't know i guess you could argue that from a couple of them but no tammy all right okay well that was our lightning

[02:29:29] round we have no feedback section this week but we will have some final thoughts in a minute just first a big thank you to you ashley a big thank you to everyone who's listening at home

[02:29:42] a big thank you to the book club on the book club as i mentioned before you will now find the po halloween special with special readings of the fall of the house of usher and the raven

[02:29:53] and you're also refining there soon uh the beacon 23 q howie book breakdown and then we will be continuing with the silo read and i would like to thank our new silo

[02:30:05] zins in the book club stacy c laura c ron a debbie p quang yu tom n babs peter oh melissa t and simon m look forward to forging ahead with all these books and look forward to more of you joining us

[02:30:23] now in this public feed our next coverage is going to be beacon 23 the hu howie adaptation on mgm plus luke and i are going to be covering that together as usual and we will be continuing with

[02:30:35] our dune series as well and on the lower hounds feed we're currently right in the middle of low key season two and we are also expecting soon there should be the one shot of the creator

[02:30:49] and maybe a little werewolf by night halloween specials coming our way soon too and as far as podcasts i'm not on i'm also really excited for them they're starting back up the book nook with

[02:31:00] some merrillian stories and earth sea where they're now in the book to hanu and also in the network anthony and steve have their podcast properly howard where they review films often horror based

[02:31:13] or with the theme like it was remakes this past season whatever it is it doesn't even matter if you've seen the film they're funny guys they make lots of jokes and you can also soon hear

[02:31:23] them making jokes teaming up with david and john from the lower hounds for a severance cross pod team up i've shared i've shared the preview episode in this feed so you can give it a lesson and

[02:31:37] we'll hopefully see you on the lower hounds discord back in this feed and everywhere else now ashley do you have any final thoughts about the show or po i would say the show was delightfully

[02:31:50] dreary with characters that you hate to love and love to hate and just enough gore to unsettle people who may not love blood and guts like i do yeah i mean it could have been scarier

[02:32:05] but i also recognize that uh i come from a different place for that but overall they nailed the atmosphere they nailed the adaptation the characters i find fascinating definitely was still thinking about a lot of them after the show was over and i'm definitely on the rewatch

[02:32:23] team so i'm into that what else are you going to be watching for halloween week anything else scary don't judge me you know me but jose one tickets on the radio near us to see saw x oh okay i mean

[02:32:38] that's right up here which has amazing ratings by the way if you hate the soft franchise this one's in like the 80 or 90 percent of raton tomatoes so fall back check it out no even uh even mark

[02:32:48] kerr mode who's like a big uk reviewer uh he's often like scoffing and a lot of stuff he was like hey he said the same thing he's like i'm not into saw movies this one's pretty good all right i mean

[02:33:01] are you gonna do any halloween parties any dressing up yes so i'm going to one this weekend and we're doing a theme though i'm not sure how many people are actually

[02:33:10] hopping on the theme but it's toy story and i'm going to be rex the t rex oh wait are you gonna do with your arms i'm gonna wear them real small the whole night and you know close to

[02:33:23] mouth beard of mouth that's how you got okay i was gonna say is jose feeding you i'll be able to he can hand me the food and then i can feed myself yeah okay there you go i'm gonna dress up

[02:33:35] as a podcaster and edit no i think i'm gonna do i'm gonna celebrate i mean a lot of my friends it's just not the same anymore that they all have kids and stuff so i'm gonna do some horror

[02:33:49] marathoning to celebrate that sounds like a wonderful way to celebrate halloween yeah well thank you so much for coming and you know we can relive our horror watching growing up times

[02:34:02] together thank you for having me i really liked being on your show good and i think the listeners are all gonna really like it too um and yeah thank you so much to the listeners if you enjoyed this

[02:34:13] episode please share it with anyone else you think would enjoy it and five star ratings on your podcast listening app of choice is a huge help in getting more people to give this show

[02:34:23] a try i'd also love to hear your thoughts about the netflix show this show po anything else we cover on wool shift dust you can find me on blue sky twitter and most other social media at alicia cb

[02:34:35] and uh you'll find me back on this feed at the start of november until then down down that town shall settle hence hell rising from a thousand thrones shall do it reverence and all with pearl and ruby glowing was the last door which came flowing flowing

[02:35:30] and sparkling ever more a troop of echoes whose sweet duty was bad to sing in voices of surpassing beauty to the wit and wisdom of their king okay david this is where we're supposed to choose a side green or black john my soul is as black as

[02:36:26] night your turn i am black for life so we're not fighting i thought this is where hbo wanted us to like pick sides and fight and stuff don't worry i'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about on the

[02:36:41] pod but we seem to agree on one thing we both really like the show the politics the drama the lore it was made for the lorehounds and since we just finished recapping season one

[02:36:52] we couldn't be more ready to defend our black queen in the dance of the dragons and with the season pass option and supercast listeners can get early ad-free access to each weekly scene by scene

[02:37:03] deep dive plus our custom show guide with all the characters and connections see you in the lorehounds podcast feed each week for our dragonfire hot but probably positive takes the lorehounds house of the dragon coverage is also safe for team green consumption side

[02:37:17] effects may include a deeper understanding of dragon lore a hardened conflict with itself and an inescapable urge to read the book fire and blood by george r r martin dragon seeds may experience burning