The Man Who Invented Christmas (2017) & the real Charles Dickens – The intermezzo

[00:00:35] Hello holiday listeners and welcome back to the Wool-Shift-Dust Winter Tales Lounge. Pull up a chair for a storytelling nightcap, a look at the life of the man who is said to have invented Christmas, plus the 2017 film The Man Who Invented Christmas. This is the second public episode in our A Christmas Carol 2024 winter holiday series, third if you want to count the intro up. So I recommend starting with that introductory app where we lay out everything we're covering this year and

[00:01:05] There's also the classics episode in this feed where we talk about some of the most iconic, most faithful versions of A Christmas Carol.

[00:01:15] Um, so I guess I didn't introduce myself. I'm Alicia and I'm here as always with Luke and Luke, are you a Dickens fan overall aside from A Christmas Carol?

[00:01:26] No, I would have to say I am a Christmas Carol fan before I am a Dickens fan. It was, it was not, weirdly it was not something we did at school. We did a lot of Shakespeare. We did a lot of Shakespeare, but no Dickens.

[00:01:39] Oh, we definitely. I mean, most of the Dickens I read, including this, uh, was at school. Um, and actually my low key favorite was Nicholas Nickleby, which is, it was his third novel. So written before this one.

[00:01:54] Okay.

[00:01:54] He kind of got depressing at the end.

[00:01:56] Yeah.

[00:01:57] I got, I got, I got that impression doing the research. You kind of want to be considered, you wanted to be considered an author, you know?

[00:02:04] Hmm. Yeah.

[00:02:05] Very serious. But this is, that's when he wrote, you know, like a tale of two cities and great expectations, you know, which are considered his seminal works. But I like Nicholas Nickleby, which is like a caper, you know?

[00:02:15] Okay.

[00:02:16] Um, but this episode, this is going to be a shorter one. It isn't meant to be an exhaustive look at Dickens. It's just the intermezzo of our little series this year. But we, yeah, we know a few things about his life that we think will give you a deeper appreciation of the story of A Christmas Carol.

[00:02:34] Um, and we're going to use the 2017 film, the man who invented Christmas, the one starring Dan Stevens as a framework to open the conversation.

[00:02:44] So we'll get into what we thought about the film in a minute, but just to set it up. Uh, it was directed by Bharat Naluri and Naluri, uh, previously got an Emmy nom for the HBO mini series Tsunami, the aftermath.

[00:02:56] And that's the one, like when I see the cast, the cast was like Chewy Tail, a Jew for Sophie Okinaudio, Tim Roth, Hugh Bonneville, Tony Collette, like crazy good cast.

[00:03:06] I remember seeing trailers for this one, but I never watched it.

[00:03:11] No, I've got, I've got to say, I never heard of it. So I need to dig that out.

[00:03:14] I remember there were like two Tsunami, um, movies that came out at the same time.

[00:03:19] You know, I remember the one with you and McGregor and Naomi Watts.

[00:03:23] I didn't watch that one either. Yeah. And this was the other one, I guess.

[00:03:26] Okay.

[00:03:26] Uh, but, uh, Naluri also directed the pilot of the hundred and the hundred is an imperfect show, but the pilot is not the problem.

[00:03:38] Um, the movie was written by Susan Coyne, who's apparently known for co-creating and starring in a show called slings and arrows, which was, uh, it is a TV series that ran in the early noughties about a Canadian Shakespearean theater company.

[00:03:52] I've never heard of it before. Sounds fun. And this is her only film writing credit. This is based on a book by Les Standiford, who has, yeah, the books called the same thing. The man who invented Christmas. Um, I haven't read it. I'm assuming you haven't either.

[00:04:09] No, no. So we can't really comment it on, uh, on it as an adaptation of that. I've seen reviews that basically said what you would expect. It really cuts things out and simplifies.

[00:04:20] And just based on what I know about Dickens life, I'm like, yeah, yeah, it certainly does.

[00:04:27] Um, it's a Canadian Irish co-production and you can find it now on Disney plus or maybe Hulu in the U S I don't really know. Um, starring Dan Stevens and more fifth Clark.

[00:04:37] And it's about Dickens writing the book, Christmas Carol, what his life was like at that moment, his childhood that led to that, um, basically the various influences that went into that happening and the, how it happened.

[00:04:51] So this was actually one of the first that you watched out of the whole bunch.

[00:04:56] Let's take, let's take a listen to what you thought then.

[00:05:00] So I've just finished watching the man who invented Christmas, a fictionalized version of the writing process for a Christmas Carol.

[00:05:11] Um, I quite enjoyed the film.

[00:05:14] It's very much a pastiche of ye olde Victorian England, but nothing wrong with that.

[00:05:21] Um, it does, it is one of those films that has every British actor that can stand and deliver lines.

[00:05:29] So we have Jonathan Price, we have Christopher Plummer, we have Ian McNeice, we have several others who I don't know their names, but they crop up everywhere.

[00:05:42] Um, it's really a story about Charles Dickens dealing with his own childhood trauma, um, because his father was bankrupt and sent to death as prison.

[00:05:56] And, uh, Charles Dickens had to work as a boot black as a small child.

[00:06:02] I don't know how true to life, I, I know that Dickens' father was bankrupt and I know that he did go to the poor house.

[00:06:10] I don't know how accurate the rest of it is.

[00:06:13] Nevertheless, it was funny.

[00:06:16] It was touching.

[00:06:17] It was darker than I expected for a Christmas movie.

[00:06:21] Um, it was slightly hallmarky in its portrayal.

[00:06:25] Of Victorian England, but I can forgive it that.

[00:06:29] On the whole, I enjoyed it.

[00:06:31] All right.

[00:06:32] Do you still feel the same way?

[00:06:34] Yeah, I do.

[00:06:35] And having done a bit more research, there are obviously bits of it that aren't true to life, but, but there are bits of it that are fairly close to, um, that are fits that are fairly close to the history.

[00:06:47] Um, I mentioned in the introduction that Dan Stevens would make a great Doctor Who.

[00:06:52] Right.

[00:06:53] And if ever he was cast as Doctor Who, I think this should be a show reel, particularly when he's talking to the imagined spirits.

[00:07:01] Yeah.

[00:07:01] Yeah.

[00:07:02] There's something about the way he delivers that performance that is very, it's very high energy.

[00:07:07] It's very, it's very Doctor Who.

[00:07:09] Um, I mean, he could perform like some pharmaceutical terms and conditions and I would sign up to watch.

[00:07:16] I love Dan Stevens.

[00:07:18] Um, I also love Morfydd Clark.

[00:07:21] Uh, others may know her best as Galadriel from Rings of Power or, you know, she's also in some, uh, great horror films.

[00:07:29] Um, but yeah, I, I would watch either of them just for themselves.

[00:07:34] So let alone together, I was all, I was really excited about this film.

[00:07:39] I ended up giving it three stars, which is okay.

[00:07:43] It's not bad.

[00:07:43] Um, I said the concept and cast seemed ideal and the actors really lived up to their roles, went beyond really.

[00:07:49] The production design was incredible and there were some really stunning lighting moments as well.

[00:07:54] It's just a shame that the story felt so stiltedly superficial and paint by numbers, given how much they had to work with.

[00:08:01] I found myself eager for it to be over despite starring actors I adore.

[00:08:05] Fantastic production design and some great, oh, I already said the great lighting moments, but it bears repeating.

[00:08:11] I actually tried to look up who was in charge of the lighting and, um, that's apparently just not easy to find online.

[00:08:19] Lighting techs should get more credit.

[00:08:21] Yes.

[00:08:22] But yeah, I don't know.

[00:08:24] Um, I guess I'm, I'm slightly less warm on it than you, but I'm glad I watched it.

[00:08:30] So a friend of a friend actually works at, oh, I don't know whether he still does, but he certainly worked for years at Dickens world, which is the like theme park slash museum to Dickens in Chatham in Kent.

[00:08:46] I don't think I knew that existed, but now I really want to go through there.

[00:08:49] Yeah, no, he was, he was one of the, he was, it's like, um, it's like a little Victorian model village that he played.

[00:08:58] He was one of the characters that was like one of the tour guides that took people around the, the model village in, in character.

[00:09:05] So, you know, I've seen him in the suit and the stovepipe hat and the fake beard and everything.

[00:09:10] That sounds like a lot of fun.

[00:09:12] I actually really enjoy that sort of thing.

[00:09:15] Um, but yeah, so from the historical perspective, the movie does a decent enough job checking off the, like the important points from his biography.

[00:09:25] Like, you know, I do like how they pay attention to how he pissed off Americans for a while and then won them back with this book.

[00:09:33] Basically.

[00:09:33] Basically.

[00:09:34] We see his previous success from Oliver twist and yes, and that's also true.

[00:09:38] And pick quick papers and Nicholas Nickleby, but he did have some books that weren't making as much in between.

[00:09:44] Um, they talk about his tour of the U S which was like a big thing because also, well, this is why he wrote the mean things about Americans.

[00:09:52] Cause he walked away thinking that Americans were basically, um, too into money and celebrity and a bit racist and uncaring.

[00:10:03] Which, okay.

[00:10:04] Yeah.

[00:10:05] I grew up in the U S.

[00:10:06] Speaking of, speaking of being uncaring.

[00:10:09] The one thing it really does gloss over is Dickens relationship with his wife, which was.

[00:10:16] Right.

[00:10:17] Yeah.

[00:10:17] Which was no, which was not good.

[00:10:18] And like the, the, the, the movie.

[00:10:21] It sounds like it deteriorated over many years.

[00:10:23] Yeah.

[00:10:24] To the point he almost had got her committed.

[00:10:26] I think he got her committed.

[00:10:28] Tried to get her committed.

[00:10:28] Well, he tried to, but it didn't have pan out, but that was a very like, you know, Rembrandt, the, um, the painter.

[00:10:35] He did that to his wife.

[00:10:36] It was a very Rembrandt move.

[00:10:38] Rembrandt was a note.

[00:10:39] And also like Dickens.

[00:10:41] I mean, Dickens had an odd relationship with women altogether because, um, I don't know how true this is,

[00:10:48] but what I read was when his father was released from debtors prison, his mother wasn't, his mother wasn't like as keen that he should come home from the boot blacking, um, factory immediately.

[00:11:01] And like Dickens held that against her for the rest of his life.

[00:11:05] Okay.

[00:11:06] All right.

[00:11:06] I know that he did continue to work there.

[00:11:08] I just assumed that, yeah, they, um, cause basically, so his father got arrested and put in debtors prison for, you know, spending too much money.

[00:11:18] Um, and his mother and their, you know, brothers and sisters, he was, he was one of, he was a second of eight children.

[00:11:27] Um, and two of them died young, but so six who survived into adulthood.

[00:11:32] And so everyone, but him and his older sister, Fanny, who does that sound familiar from the book?

[00:11:40] Um, the rest of them basically had to move into debtors prison with their father because that's like, you know, they couldn't afford rent.

[00:11:50] Yeah.

[00:11:51] And that lasted about a year and then afterwards.

[00:11:55] Uh, and then, yeah.

[00:11:57] So the good, the good fortune was that his father's mother died and they inherited some money.

[00:12:03] And Marshall C prison, the death is prison.

[00:12:06] His father, um, and his family was in, was actually part of Dickens world.

[00:12:11] Hmm.

[00:12:12] Okay.

[00:12:13] Okay.

[00:12:14] Um, so I, it's like a historic building, but I think part of it is the gift.

[00:12:18] Part of it is the gift shop rather amazingly tackling.

[00:12:23] Yeah.

[00:12:25] Well, yeah, so much for not being commercial, but yeah, but yeah, I do just find it amusing that he wrote some, he went to the U S did some tours, wrote some books where he was perhaps a little too candid for our American cousins as they put it in this film.

[00:12:43] Um, and, uh, then he wrote this book and then they're like, okay, we forgive you.

[00:12:48] And then he went back to America and didn't want to.

[00:12:51] Um, I mean, there is even a slight dig at the United States in the Christmas Carol, um, when the ghost of Christmas past turns up and Scrooge thinks he slept all the way through, um, to the next day when it's, uh, you know, none of his, um, none of his, um, loan agreements would be worth more than the United States.

[00:13:11] Uh, treasury bond.

[00:13:13] Right.

[00:13:14] Um, and that was because actually in the 1840s, the U S was considered a massive credit risk, um, because of fear of civil war over slavery, basically.

[00:13:23] So like the U S government could only raise money, but like really exorbitant rates of interest.

[00:13:30] Okay.

[00:13:32] Hmm.

[00:13:33] And, um, they also brought up a copyright lawsuit in this case over someone, someone doing an unauthorized version of his Oliver twist called Oliver twisted.

[00:13:42] But this was a, this was a constant problem for him at this time.

[00:13:47] And it also became a problem.

[00:13:48] We'll talk about it a bit more with a Christmas Carol because, uh, there, they didn't really have the protections at the time that, that people could copy these or could make an unauthorized play and earn more money off this story than he did.

[00:14:04] Um, what did you think of the characterization of Dan Stevens as Dickens in this?

[00:14:10] I mean, he comes across both as incredibly likable, but also a bit of an ass depending on which part of them, depending on which part of the movie we're in and who he's talking to.

[00:14:22] He's clearly got a lot of like unresolved anger towards his dad, which is understandable.

[00:14:29] But, um, but like, he's very much, he's very much portrayed as like the tortured artist, but you know, it's like, no, you don't, you can be,

[00:14:39] you can be, you can be talented without being an ass.

[00:14:42] Yeah.

[00:14:43] Well, what I get from, you know, here reading about what other people said about him, his contemporaries is that it seems like he probably had ADHD and he was just really, um, overbearing for his own family, but then really fun to be around for people who spent less time with him.

[00:15:05] Yeah.

[00:15:06] And it's, it's really, it's really odd given the amount of affection that for children that is clearly in a Christmas carol and given this sort of general affection for, you know, or general sympathy with the poor and particularly with children that he doesn't seem to have liked his own children.

[00:15:25] He doesn't seem to have liked his own children very well.

[00:15:27] Yeah.

[00:15:28] Yeah.

[00:15:29] We see him in the film say, bye little strangers to them.

[00:15:31] And I do love that line because it just tells us very quickly what his, uh, relationship is with them, but also how he just like is making a joke out of everything.

[00:15:41] Yeah.

[00:15:43] Um, it's also one thing I do like about the characterization in the film too, is that we see that he wants the trappings of wealth to like, probably to kind of prove something to himself.

[00:15:53] But at the same time, he's looking at his father who is and was in real life going around town and using his son's name to borrow money and things like that.

[00:16:02] He doesn't want to become that.

[00:16:04] So I, there's this conflict between those two sides where he wants to be, have made it and not be, you know, the, the, um, have gotten away from the struggles of his youth, but also doesn't want to repeat the mistakes of the last generation.

[00:16:19] Yeah.

[00:16:20] Yeah.

[00:16:21] And I thought one of the most effective scenes in the movie is Dickens finds his father like rummaging through the garbage too.

[00:16:30] He's cause he's selling like Dickens as left Dickens, his letters and papers is like memorabilia.

[00:16:36] And that's the moment that like Charles Dickens, uh, you know, as played by Dan Stevens kind of snaps with him completely.

[00:16:45] Um, and I, I thought Dan Stevens and Jonathan price.

[00:16:49] I mean, Jonathan price, again, one of those actors you could, you could listen to read the phone book.

[00:16:54] Um, but the way they do that scene is really excellent.

[00:16:58] It kind of lifts the whole, it lifted the whole movie.

[00:17:00] Yeah.

[00:17:01] What is a movie where I got more appreciation of how, of what they fit into it after?

[00:17:08] Cause I've watched the movie first and then kind of did a little deeper research after.

[00:17:12] And so for example, there's a throwaway line about, you know, he's, he's like, but I bought

[00:17:17] you a house and you know, and his parents still just want to be in London.

[00:17:21] And then you find out, Oh yeah, he bought his parents a house in Devon, which looks like

[00:17:26] a very pretty place.

[00:17:27] And he thought that if they were away from the city, they would stay out of trouble.

[00:17:31] But then they just kept coming back to the city.

[00:17:34] Yeah.

[00:17:34] And like in the 1840s, Devon, it was a long way from London.

[00:17:38] Right.

[00:17:39] Yeah.

[00:17:40] No, the way, you know, you brought up his relationship with his wife, Catherine, but

[00:17:44] I thought they portrayed that well also where it was, he was just careless toward her.

[00:17:50] Like he just was indifferent toward her and he was attaching to, they made up the character

[00:17:56] of the Irish nanny made whatever her job was.

[00:18:01] But apparently there are stories of him basically behaving like that.

[00:18:06] Like say he sees some pretty young thing who captivates his attention for a moment and

[00:18:10] yeah.

[00:18:12] And his wife's just like, okay.

[00:18:14] I mean, I thought Monifrey Clark did a really good job with a part that didn't actually, she's

[00:18:19] not got that much to do in the movie, but she, you know, she makes, she takes a small,

[00:18:25] a relatively small part and, you know, makes it bigger by her performance, I guess is what

[00:18:31] I'm trying to say.

[00:18:32] Yeah.

[00:18:33] Yeah.

[00:18:33] Yeah.

[00:18:35] One change from that, the movie made that I do take issue with is they showed

[00:18:40] the Raven.

[00:18:41] So he did have a Raven named grip.

[00:18:42] He actually had a succession of three Ravens named grip and an Eagle at one point.

[00:18:46] Um, but they showed his father basically trading something for, yeah.

[00:18:52] And giving that to the kids and the kids wanting to keep it and stuff in real life.

[00:18:56] The kids were afraid of the Raven because it would bite them, bite their ankles.

[00:19:01] Um, but the first grip was really smart and could, you know, speak some words, but that

[00:19:08] grip actually died in 1941.

[00:19:10] So two years before the events that are portrayed in this film.

[00:19:16] And Dickens thought that somebody, it died, that the Raven died by drinking, um, paint that

[00:19:23] had lead in it.

[00:19:24] And Dickens thought someone might've poisoned his Raven, but he stuffed the bird and placed

[00:19:30] it on display.

[00:19:31] And actually, uh, he got a new Raven, same name, but apparently he said this one was dumber.

[00:19:37] And eventually there was a third Raven.

[00:19:38] Uh, but the first Ravens remains passed from collect Dickens collector to Dickens collector

[00:19:44] and ended up with a Poe collector in Philadelphia.

[00:19:48] And, uh, it now is in on display in the rare book department of the Parkway central library

[00:19:54] in Philadelphia.

[00:19:54] And it's believed that this Raven is actually the inspiration for Edgar Allen pose the Raven

[00:20:03] because Dickens and Poe met twice in Philadelphia while he was touring the U S and, you know,

[00:20:09] he told him about his Raven and showed him picture or like showed him drawings or whatever.

[00:20:14] Um, and they say, and people point out that, you know, pose Raven says never more.

[00:20:20] And they say, that sounds like grip you, the Raven would speak and said, never say

[00:20:24] die.

[00:20:25] And nobody, uh, and at the end of the Dickens book, Barnaby Rudge, a grip makes a noise and

[00:20:35] someone asks what, what was that him tapping at the door?

[00:20:38] And someone responds to someone knocking softly at the shutter, which sounds very much like

[00:20:44] the poem wrap, wrap, wrapping on my chamber door.

[00:20:47] Yeah.

[00:20:48] Yeah.

[00:20:49] Um, I also found out that, that while Dickens was working as a journalist, because before

[00:20:54] he became, uh, an author, uh, an author, he was a parliamentary sketch writer, um, he

[00:21:00] was living in Camden, which is the same part of London that Bob Cratchit lives in.

[00:21:04] Ah, okay.

[00:21:06] In A Christmas Carol.

[00:21:07] Yeah.

[00:21:07] Yeah.

[00:21:08] Uh, so what did you think of the other characters other than, um, what did you think of the

[00:21:14] households?

[00:21:15] We had Mrs. Fisk.

[00:21:16] We had Mr. Forster, who's based on a real person, uh, who was his friend, but then they

[00:21:22] added this whole romance plot where he wants to propose to miss Wigmore.

[00:21:27] But, uh, then they break up because he's only the son of a butcher.

[00:21:31] And yeah, this is a whole added plot.

[00:21:32] I'm not sure what that added, but he was in real life, a friend who supported him during

[00:21:36] this time and later wrote a biography about him.

[00:21:38] And was kind of sort of the film implies sort of acting as a sort of literary agent.

[00:21:44] Yeah.

[00:21:45] Kind of.

[00:21:46] I guess so.

[00:21:47] Yeah.

[00:21:48] Yeah.

[00:21:49] And there was also Thackeray, a rival who's rub, rubs Dickens face into middling reviews.

[00:21:55] I guess that's comedy of relief.

[00:21:56] I love my, I love my old job, but Thackeray is just, it's just brilliant.

[00:22:02] And also like, uh, as an academic, you either are a Thackeray or, you know, a Thackeray, like

[00:22:08] everybody knows that person whose project is just a bit more advanced than yours, whose

[00:22:13] reviews are just a bit better than yours and won't mind letting you know about it.

[00:22:18] That was very relatable.

[00:22:21] Well, I think he, it was his maybe jealousy of Dickens.

[00:22:25] Miles Jupp is the guy that plays him and he's, he's a very funny standup comic actually, but

[00:22:32] he does do a little bit of acting as a kind of side gig.

[00:22:36] Hmm.

[00:22:37] Okay.

[00:22:38] Okay.

[00:22:39] Um, and the film though, it gave us some, gave us some Hollywood moments of inspiration.

[00:22:44] So apparently, you know, uh, Dickens was renowned for just kind of sitting and observing and writing

[00:22:50] things about people, but that's basically what all writers do.

[00:22:53] So we see him here.

[00:22:55] Uh, he meets a waiter named Marley and I go, he collects names, which I guess is broadly

[00:23:01] true, but we talked about, I guess that was in our novella episode.

[00:23:05] We talked about how probably the name Scrooge and Marley were based off a sign that was near

[00:23:11] where he grew up.

[00:23:13] Um, I, I liked the addition of the Irish maid Tara with her.

[00:23:21] Basically I liked broadly her, the addition of her, um, you know, with her saying like,

[00:23:28] I don't know, actually, you know what?

[00:23:30] I completely take that back.

[00:23:32] It still bothers me even with the spooky stories, because so the movie implies that he doesn't

[00:23:36] know that spooky stories are popular at Christmas, that only the Irish lass will know that because

[00:23:42] it's, cause it's when the veil is thin and winter solstice.

[00:23:46] Like, well, he lived in Victorian England.

[00:23:49] He fricking knew that it was ghost story season.

[00:23:51] Um, and I, and I did wonder looking at the end credits, it got funding from like the Irish,

[00:23:59] Irish film or whatever.

[00:24:01] So I wondered what, I wondered whether you kind of needed to have an Irish and explicitly

[00:24:06] Irish character in there somewhere.

[00:24:09] Which that's fine.

[00:24:10] I don't mind them adding an Irish character.

[00:24:12] Just like, I'm not sure I like the way she was at it.

[00:24:15] And then also at the end, she's like, don't, don't let tiny Tim die.

[00:24:20] And like, oh, some random Irish maid is the one who told him that it, that it should be a story

[00:24:25] about redemption.

[00:24:25] But, but actually, because, because what a lot of Dickens, a lot of Dickens novels weren't

[00:24:32] actually written as novels.

[00:24:34] They were written as sort of monthly installments.

[00:24:39] Right.

[00:24:40] In magazine.

[00:24:41] Yeah, that was, that was the common way to release stories at that time.

[00:24:45] Serialized.

[00:24:46] So Dickens would, Dickens would actually change the plot of his stories based on feedback.

[00:24:52] Sure.

[00:24:53] Based on feedback from readers.

[00:24:55] But yes, it is a, it is a little bit hokey.

[00:24:58] Well, not just hokey, just, I don't know.

[00:25:00] Yeah.

[00:25:01] Um, let's say that all the inspiration came from this made up character.

[00:25:06] And no mention of course, of the goblins who stole the sexton story.

[00:25:11] So.

[00:25:12] Humph.

[00:25:13] Humph.

[00:25:15] Humph.

[00:25:15] Humph.

[00:25:15] Humph.

[00:25:15] What do you, what do you think about the whole, uh, bit about the Christmas Carol scenes

[00:25:20] bleeding into his reality?

[00:25:23] Yeah.

[00:25:23] That's where I think it gets a bit, that's where I think it gets a bit Doctor Who.

[00:25:27] Um.

[00:25:28] I mean, that's my favorite part.

[00:25:30] Yeah.

[00:25:30] I like Doctor Who.

[00:25:32] I'm like, it's a shame that Christopher Plummer will never do an adaptation.

[00:25:36] Yeah.

[00:25:36] Why not?

[00:25:37] Oh, right.

[00:25:38] Well, cause he's dead.

[00:25:39] Right.

[00:25:40] Yep.

[00:25:40] Yep.

[00:25:40] Yep.

[00:25:41] That'll do it.

[00:25:42] Um, but I, cause it's, it is actually like the perfect cast overall though.

[00:25:46] Not just him, but all of them.

[00:25:49] Yes.

[00:25:49] Yes, it is.

[00:25:50] Although I have to shout out the, um, the ghost of Christmas past was super lame compared

[00:25:56] to Dickens real imagination.

[00:25:57] See our classics episode where I read his description of that crazy ass ghost.

[00:26:03] Yeah.

[00:26:03] But again, very, very difficult to do on screen.

[00:26:07] Yeah.

[00:26:08] Um.

[00:26:08] Yeah.

[00:26:09] Yeah.

[00:26:09] But they did, this one didn't even try.

[00:26:11] They're just like.

[00:26:12] That's true.

[00:26:12] But he was working through the creative process, Alicia.

[00:26:16] Like it's not a finished draft.

[00:26:18] Right.

[00:26:19] That was the last thing he did when he was, you know, hadn't slept for days.

[00:26:23] And also I do like the, um, cause one of the little subplots is like, how are they

[00:26:27] physically going to get the book published in time for Christmas?

[00:26:32] You know, for it to hit the market in time.

[00:26:34] And like Dickens is having to pay out of his own pocket.

[00:26:38] Do you get like the best illustrator in London?

[00:26:40] Well, that was real.

[00:26:41] That part's real.

[00:26:42] Yeah.

[00:26:42] There is a great little scene where he's trying to describe the ghost of Christmas present.

[00:26:47] Right.

[00:26:47] And like the illustrator is just not having it.

[00:26:49] Cause how can there be a ghost and it not be scary?

[00:26:54] Like what, what, what, what do you want me to draw?

[00:26:56] I don't understand.

[00:27:00] Yeah.

[00:27:01] Uh, yeah, because he did, um, he self-financed and he did this really fancy first edition.

[00:27:07] Uh, so indeed he got John Leach, who was the preeminent illustrator at the time to do hand

[00:27:13] painted illustrations.

[00:27:14] So not that he would paint them all himself, obviously, but that meant that there were people,

[00:27:20] women who were painting each book.

[00:27:23] So that was really expensive.

[00:27:25] Um, and he also had the red cloth cover and he had pages trimmed with gold and he wanted

[00:27:30] on the inside, he wanted, um, the opening pages to be green, but then the, the dye was not sticking

[00:27:37] while it was rubbing off on people's fingers.

[00:27:38] So he got reprinted so they could be yellow.

[00:27:41] So it didn't do that.

[00:27:42] So super expensive.

[00:27:44] And then he, and then he also got no money for all the unauthorized plays.

[00:27:48] There are no copyright protections.

[00:27:51] So he ended up, he made money for this.

[00:27:54] It was absolutely a massive bestseller, but he did not make nearly as much money as you

[00:28:00] would expect.

[00:28:02] It was expensive.

[00:28:04] And also it was like a staple of Dickens reading tours.

[00:28:07] So I think we mentioned in the, in the, in the intro episode that Dickens would, a lot

[00:28:14] of the way he made his money would be go on these book tours to America around the UK.

[00:28:19] He even had one planned for Australia, although he never actually did it, but he would go and

[00:28:25] read out loud to an audience.

[00:28:28] And a Christmas Carol was one of like the main, you know, one of the individual, you'd either

[00:28:33] read the whole book or one of the individual staves, one of the individual chapter chapters.

[00:28:39] And often it would be paired with something from the Pickwick papers.

[00:28:44] So he made a lot of money that way.

[00:28:47] Yeah.

[00:28:47] When he died as a state, I don't know whether this is true because I only got it off Wikipedia,

[00:28:52] but it would have been worth about 9 million pounds in modern money.

[00:28:56] Okay.

[00:28:57] Yeah.

[00:28:57] So rich, but not super rich.

[00:28:59] Not as you know, you would expect from one of the most famous authors to have ever lived.

[00:29:05] Yeah.

[00:29:06] Yeah.

[00:29:07] All right.

[00:29:07] Well, we're going to get more into specifically his, his life, the movie aside after a quick

[00:29:12] break.

[00:29:13] Be right back.

[00:29:17] Okay.

[00:29:17] So I have to thank Arca Diego on blue sky who read Charles Dickens, a life by Claire Tomlin.

[00:29:26] Um, and apparently she also wrote the book, the invisible woman is adapted from, but anyway, um,

[00:29:32] so Arca Diego, I asked for, you know, like some takes from that book on Dickens, just a sort

[00:29:39] of a high level summary.

[00:29:40] And this is what they said.

[00:29:42] He was really into the French revolution and hated queen Victoria, LOL, which surprised me

[00:29:48] to be honest.

[00:29:49] Uh, she was a big fan of his though.

[00:29:51] He eventually met her because his daughter really wanted to be presented at court, but it

[00:29:55] was under a lot of duress.

[00:29:57] He didn't like the Royals.

[00:29:59] He basically abandoned his wife and didn't have any real contact with her for years and

[00:30:04] then hooked up with a teenager.

[00:30:05] He also didn't really want kids, but because Victorian times ended up with a bunch and just

[00:30:11] didn't really like most of them.

[00:30:13] Um, honestly, my main takeaway was that in terms of many social issues, except racism, he was

[00:30:19] terrible about that.

[00:30:20] He was a good person, but as a husband and father, he sucked.

[00:30:24] Sorry if I'm ruining your image of Dickens here.

[00:30:27] The epilogue of the book was really interesting because although sadly, a lot of his children

[00:30:31] died, two of them lived into old age.

[00:30:33] His daughter spoke out about the difficulties of him being seen as a very compassionate man

[00:30:39] and of her having good childhood memories, but also knowing that he just didn't really

[00:30:44] care about some of them and seeing how he treated her mother.

[00:30:48] Whereas her brother really disapproved of her speaking out about it and thought that sort

[00:30:53] of stuff should be kept private.

[00:30:54] It was a fascinating, it was fascinating and sad.

[00:30:58] Dickens really did do a lot of good things for social issues though.

[00:31:02] One fascinating story was about how he funded this home and school for women who wanted to

[00:31:07] get out of sex work and how it didn't treat them like awful sinners as such places often

[00:31:13] did.

[00:31:13] So it was just very frustrating.

[00:31:15] So many historical figures would have been nicer if they'd been born after therapy had

[00:31:19] been invented.

[00:31:20] Yeah, well, and today if people would go to therapy.

[00:31:25] But yeah, I think that's a good summary from what I've heard.

[00:31:30] Yeah.

[00:31:31] What I've read.

[00:31:32] Yeah.

[00:31:32] And he was clearly a guy with issues.

[00:31:36] And I, and you know, not, not surprisingly, he had a very traumatic child, he had a very

[00:31:43] traumatic childhood.

[00:31:45] Um, but I do think it's like, it's a typical, if you are not decent as a person to the people

[00:31:52] around you, I don't really care all that much about what believe.

[00:31:57] Like you have to live that.

[00:31:59] You have to demonstrate it.

[00:32:01] And yes, Dickens did do a lot of good.

[00:32:03] He also helped like establish great Ormond street hospital and put it on a, put it on

[00:32:08] a financial, um, financial footing.

[00:32:12] Um, cause he did a lot of readings around fundraising for great Ormond street hospital, but like

[00:32:20] there's a difference between liking humanity and liking people.

[00:32:24] And I think Dickens liked humanity, but he didn't much like people.

[00:32:29] I mean, I guess though, he probably did more good.

[00:32:33] You know, we talked about this, especially in our novella breakdown, um, in the book club,

[00:32:38] but he probably did more good overall than, you know, because it's not like he, he was

[00:32:47] awful to his wife and I feel sad for that, but you know, she had a good life at some independence

[00:32:54] and children, like, you know, he went and did this thing for his daughter because she really

[00:32:59] wanted to be presented at court, even though he hated it.

[00:33:01] You know, he was, um, I, I'm not, I don't mean to make apologies for him.

[00:33:06] I'm just saying people are complex, so I don't want to write off things just because yeah,

[00:33:12] he was definitely also a bit of an asshole because I can, you know what, when I defend

[00:33:16] people, I think part of me is worried that I'm also a bit of an asshole.

[00:33:20] I hope people give me the grace that I would give to others.

[00:33:26] Um, anyway, he was born in 1812.

[00:33:29] So he was 31 when he wrote a Christmas carol.

[00:33:31] Um, but he only lived to be 58 when he died of a stroke.

[00:33:35] And apparently he really looked much older at that point.

[00:33:39] Like he was aging rapidly because of his lifestyle or.

[00:33:45] Yeah.

[00:33:45] A lot of travel, a lot travel in, in an age when that wasn't common and a lot of very hard

[00:33:51] work as well.

[00:33:52] Like he was constantly like touring the country.

[00:33:55] Yeah.

[00:33:57] Yeah.

[00:33:57] And his older sister Fanny, by the way, or which is short for Francis, she did have a

[00:34:02] sixth son named Henry Burnett Jr.

[00:34:06] So we saw in the film this character and it was implied that tiny Tim was based off of

[00:34:11] him.

[00:34:12] And yeah, that's probably true.

[00:34:14] And he, he had tuberculosis.

[00:34:17] So maybe that's what tiny, tiny Tim had also.

[00:34:20] So, but then, yeah, it doesn't matter if Scrooge helps because you don't cure tuberculosis.

[00:34:25] Yeah.

[00:34:25] You don't cure tuberculosis in the 1840s, unfortunately.

[00:34:30] Yeah.

[00:34:30] So maybe it wasn't that, but yeah, he, we, we talked already about the debtor's prison,

[00:34:37] but, um, even though that was only a year of his life, you know, he was forced to leave

[00:34:41] school and work in a factory for a while that, you know, producing, doing labels on these

[00:34:45] blacking tins.

[00:34:47] And, uh, that really, that was when he was 12, but it affected him forever.

[00:34:53] And he is famously quoted as saying, I know I do not exaggerate unconsciously and unintentionally

[00:34:59] the scantiness of my resources and the difficulty of my life.

[00:35:02] I know that, but for the mercy of God, I might easily have been for any care that was taken

[00:35:08] of me, a little robber or a vagabond.

[00:35:10] And so he's basically saying, you know, if, if that inheritance hadn't come through and

[00:35:14] things turned around or, you know, any thing had gone wrong, he could have been, he, he,

[00:35:22] his whole life could have, um, turned out differently.

[00:35:25] And I guess that's why he wanted to give people in those situations a second chance.

[00:35:31] Yeah.

[00:35:32] Yeah.

[00:35:33] And he was a, he was a journalist before he was a fiction writer, you know, so he was

[00:35:38] really studying these social issues and he was especially horrified by how poor women

[00:35:42] and children were treated.

[00:35:44] And it said that, you know, and I talk about this in the novella episode with the, uh, with

[00:35:50] the song, the tiny Tim song.

[00:35:52] Um, but one of the main inspirations was a talk that he saw in Manchester in 1943 about

[00:36:01] 1840.

[00:36:02] 1843.

[00:36:03] Yes.

[00:36:03] He was very old cave mech as his ghost.

[00:36:06] And then now 1843.

[00:36:08] Um, and, uh, yeah, that the, about the working conditions, you know, and, and factories and

[00:36:14] such.

[00:36:15] But at the same time, I love one story that kept coming up.

[00:36:18] Did you come across this about where his dad pointed out a house or he liked a house and

[00:36:24] his dad said.

[00:36:24] And, and, and, and when, when he became rich enough, when he became rich enough, he bought

[00:36:28] it.

[00:36:29] Um, and also apparently he liked the fact the house is mentioned in Henry VI part one in

[00:36:37] Shakespeare.

[00:36:38] And, um, like Dickens got a real kick out of the fact he was living in a house that, uh,

[00:36:44] was meant was mentioned and it was mentioned in Shakespeare history.

[00:36:48] Okay.

[00:36:50] Um, so I, um, I want to pivot to another question, but do you have any other thoughts on Dickens

[00:36:56] life itself?

[00:36:57] Nope.

[00:36:58] Okay.

[00:36:58] So the main question that we have to ask now is, did he invent Christmas as the movie claims?

[00:37:05] No.

[00:37:05] I mean, no, no.

[00:37:07] Was he extremely influential in what we think of Christmas today?

[00:37:12] Yes.

[00:37:13] Yes.

[00:37:13] Yes, he was.

[00:37:15] I mean, even humbug, um, that wasn't a word he invented.

[00:37:19] That was a word used by PT Barnum before that.

[00:37:21] And the wizard of odds had it before, um, this book.

[00:37:25] And wasn't the wizard of odds written after?

[00:37:27] Oh, right.

[00:37:28] Wizard of odds was 1900.

[00:37:31] Yeah.

[00:37:31] Okay.

[00:37:32] That's fine.

[00:37:33] But PT Barnum was already using it.

[00:37:35] Okay.

[00:37:35] He didn't invent it, but yeah, Christmas itself, you know, famously a lot of people say it takes

[00:37:41] elements from pagan festivals, especially the Roman festival Saturnalia, which was like a

[00:37:46] solstice party holiday where people use green garlands and light decorations and gave presents.

[00:37:53] Uh, they especially gave candles to the children and the poor, but you know, presents, but there

[00:37:59] are some links, some people debate it, but no, I think, yeah, definitely it just makes sense.

[00:38:05] I'm winter solstice people.

[00:38:06] It's the darkest time, you know, people want to celebrate, let loose, feel cozy, connect

[00:38:12] with people.

[00:38:13] But then the turning point for the worst for Christmas, uh, was in 1643 when there was an

[00:38:21] ordinance passed encouraging subjects to treat the midwinter period with quote unquote, the

[00:38:27] more solemn humiliation, because it may call to remembrance our sins and the sins of our

[00:38:32] forefathers who blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, basically be more pious, don't have fun.

[00:38:37] And they outlawed Christmas pudding.

[00:38:40] I mean, the, the one, the one, the one thing to say about that is, um, so obviously this

[00:38:46] is the height of the English civil war.

[00:38:48] And then the Republic.

[00:38:50] Yeah, this is Cromwell's time, right?

[00:38:51] Cromwell's dexterate.

[00:38:52] Um, so this is, this is a lot of pure, this is obviously pure and yeah, everything that

[00:38:58] the leash was so, but also Christmas, particularly in big cities was a time, you know, even under

[00:39:07] the, even under the Elizabethan, even under the late Elizabethan period, the Tudor period

[00:39:11] and the Stuarts like Christmas in cities.

[00:39:15] It was, it was a time where the authorities like registered a massive uptick in like public

[00:39:22] drunkenness, violence, revelry.

[00:39:26] So even before, um, even before that ordinance, like in the late Tudor, early Stuart period,

[00:39:33] you were getting like all these like local laws and ordinances basically telling people

[00:39:39] to calm the F, to calm the F down over Christmas because this was getting out of hand.

[00:39:45] Mm-hmm.

[00:39:46] Um, and leading to a, yeah.

[00:39:48] So Christmas actually had a bad reputation.

[00:39:51] And what I think the, the Victorians do do is recast Christmas as this time to be with

[00:39:56] family, this sort of homely domestic, um, festival.

[00:40:03] But rather than a public.

[00:40:05] Right.

[00:40:05] Um, festival.

[00:40:06] But at the same time they were, you know, it became, especially in the early 1800s was

[00:40:12] a time when historians and antiquarians were trying to bring back Christmas.

[00:40:17] Um, and they held, you know, they would, um, idolize the Tudor Christmases basically like

[00:40:24] the Elizabethan era.

[00:40:25] They were like, that was peak Christmas.

[00:40:27] We should get that back.

[00:40:28] But then, you know, they kind of picked in shows which aspects of it they incorporated into

[00:40:34] the modern version.

[00:40:35] So it was especially popular with the Royals more than the commoners because most people

[00:40:41] didn't have off work.

[00:40:42] So, you know, and they didn't have money for frivolous things like that.

[00:40:46] But, um, Victoria and Albert who were King and Queen at the, at that time during the Victorian

[00:40:52] era, believe it or not, they would decorate their own tree every year.

[00:40:57] Can you imagine today's Royals decorating their own tree and making gingerbread for their

[00:41:02] children?

[00:41:02] No, well, I mean, at the moment, uh, at the moment, you know, uh, Prince Andrew will be

[00:41:08] lucky if he gets any kind of Christmas at all because he is, he is nothing good odor with

[00:41:13] the rest of the Royals right now.

[00:41:14] But no, I can't imagine them, um, I can't imagine them decorating their own, uh, their own

[00:41:19] tree.

[00:41:20] Um, also if you're King and Queen, like what do you buy as presents?

[00:41:24] You have everything.

[00:41:26] Like what on earth would you give us gifts?

[00:41:27] What do people give them?

[00:41:29] Um, uh, I, I, I got the feeling that it was mostly them giving out presents and the presents

[00:41:34] they gave out were Christmas trees, uh, because, you know, Albert was German and this was a

[00:41:40] German tradition, the decorating of, of a fir tree basically.

[00:41:44] Uh, and actually the first Christmas tree in England was introduced by, um, Victoria's

[00:41:52] grandmother, Queen Charlotte, who was the wife, George III.

[00:41:55] And yes, this is the Queen Charlotte from Bridgerton.

[00:41:58] And she, yeah, she decorated one for a Christmas party for children in 1800.

[00:42:05] But then Albert, two generations later, he was the one who really made them mainstream because

[00:42:10] he would send them to local schools and army barracks and people are like, tree purdy.

[00:42:16] But also there's a really nice tradition ever since, I think it's a second world war thing

[00:42:22] that at the end of the second world war in Christmas, 1945, the Norwegian Royal family

[00:42:28] sent like a massive, huge Christmas tree over.

[00:42:31] Okay.

[00:42:32] Um, to, to London to say thank you for liberating us.

[00:42:36] Um, and it's like put in the middle of a Piccadilly circus and they still do that.

[00:42:40] They still, the Norwegian Royal family still send us a tree.

[00:42:42] Oh really?

[00:42:43] Since the world war.

[00:42:44] Yeah.

[00:42:45] Since world war two to say thank you for, thank you for liberating us.

[00:42:49] So yeah, it's always quite big.

[00:42:52] It's always like a little and finally thing on the news when the massive tree, when the

[00:42:57] massive tree arrives.

[00:43:00] Yeah.

[00:43:00] I guess it's like the American equivalent.

[00:43:02] It's not sent by royalty from another country, but the tree in Rockefeller square.

[00:43:07] Okay.

[00:43:08] At the Rockefeller center.

[00:43:09] Yeah.

[00:43:10] Um, but back in Victorian times, mistletoe.

[00:43:12] Mistletoe was a thing.

[00:43:14] I was kind of surprised to learn that, um, they didn't keep up with the dressing up like

[00:43:19] animals part of the Saturnalia, but mistletoe was from Saturnalia.

[00:43:23] And that was, uh, they would actually, it was acceptable for people.

[00:43:26] I questioned about people kissing at a party in one of the adaptations and maybe they were

[00:43:31] kissing a little too much, but mistletoe was an excuse.

[00:43:35] And yeah, the Dickens, uh, as Charles Dickens grew up, his family gave parties filled with

[00:43:42] music.

[00:43:42] So that explains why it's reflected in the story.

[00:43:45] Uh, and this was really like the prime period where people were gathering folk songs and

[00:43:53] especially the British Isles and they would take classic old melodies and put new words

[00:43:59] to them.

[00:44:00] And, uh, this is when Christmas carols started to become very popular.

[00:44:04] And Christmas cards as well.

[00:44:06] Yeah.

[00:44:07] So the first Christmas card by complete coincidence was quote unquote invented by Henry Cole in

[00:44:13] the same year, 1843, as a Christmas carol was published.

[00:44:16] And he was just basically like, I have too many contacts.

[00:44:19] We need to standardize this Christmas message.

[00:44:23] In 18, 1840s is also when the Christmas cracker came into, uh, use in the UK.

[00:44:29] Luke, Americans don't know what this is.

[00:44:31] Will you explain to them?

[00:44:33] Okay.

[00:44:34] So how do you explain the Christmas cracker?

[00:44:37] Christmas cracker is like a, it's a cardboard tube wrapped in wrapping paper.

[00:44:43] And it has like a small, a small fuse inside and you pack it with like party chachkis.

[00:44:52] So like paper hats, um, a joke, a little puzzle or a little game.

[00:44:57] And then one person takes one end of the cracker.

[00:45:00] One person takes the other end of the cracker.

[00:45:03] You pull the little, um, the little charge goes off.

[00:45:07] So it makes a little bang.

[00:45:08] Um, and one person gets the end with nothing in it.

[00:45:13] And one person gets the end with all the chachkis in it.

[00:45:18] I've actually, uh, I've never experienced it, but I've seen it on British movies and stuff.

[00:45:24] Yeah.

[00:45:24] Yeah.

[00:45:25] Uh, something that Americans are more familiar with is 1867 was the first department store

[00:45:31] Santa.

[00:45:31] But really I think what we think of as like the American side of the Christmas influence

[00:45:37] that comes, especially from a certain 1823 poem called a visit from St.

[00:45:43] Nicholas that starts, which was the night before Christmas when all through the house.

[00:45:47] Not a good, I do actually have the entire thing memorized, but, um, some, after we're done

[00:45:52] with this stuff, we have to do a year that we dedicate to that.

[00:45:56] Oh, really?

[00:45:57] There's enough, what there's enough, there's enough media around that.

[00:46:00] I mean, maybe it won't be as an ex, as extensive a series, but I definitely grew up with especially

[00:46:05] a Rankin-Bass version.

[00:46:07] Short.

[00:46:08] Yeah.

[00:46:09] I only know that cause it's at the end of, uh, National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation when

[00:46:14] he does the, the twas the night before Christmas.

[00:46:17] Oh, really?

[00:46:17] It wasn't like prevalent at all growing up?

[00:46:19] No, it's not a thing you get.

[00:46:21] It's not a thing you get in the UK.

[00:46:23] Okay.

[00:46:23] Okay.

[00:46:24] All right.

[00:46:25] Uh, well, but this was the, the, I, that poem is one of the main things that, you know,

[00:46:31] they took the Dutch version of Sinterklaas, which actually looks more like popish, you know,

[00:46:37] with the tall hats and the robes and stuff and described, you know, this version.

[00:46:42] And then of course, Coca-Cola in the 1930s really cemented what we think of as Santa looking

[00:46:48] like.

[00:46:49] Like holidays, holidays are coming.

[00:46:52] All of these.

[00:46:53] Yeah.

[00:46:54] You always know, know it's Christmas when you get the, in the US, did you have the Coca-Cola

[00:46:59] rod with like the big truck?

[00:47:01] Uh, Santa rolling into town.

[00:47:05] Yeah.

[00:47:06] That sounds like a few of them.

[00:47:07] Yeah.

[00:47:08] Yeah.

[00:47:08] Um, but it was interesting that at this time in the Victorian era in the UK, Father Christmas

[00:47:14] was seen similarly to the ghost of Christmas presents.

[00:47:17] Like it was more like this green man, pagan, you know, with food and merriment and boughs

[00:47:23] of holly in his hair.

[00:47:25] And according to my grandparents, at any rate, that was true, like well into the 1930s.

[00:47:31] Hmm.

[00:47:32] So it really took, like the, the red.

[00:47:36] Oh, it's Coca-Cola.

[00:47:37] Yeah.

[00:47:37] That is the power of Coca-Cola.

[00:47:40] But basically that was completely displaced in like the 1950s.

[00:47:44] Hmm.

[00:47:46] Um, you do stockings as well?

[00:47:48] Yes.

[00:47:49] Okay.

[00:47:50] Apparently that started in the 1870s and I guess it came via France in the US.

[00:47:55] I'm not sure between France and the US, which was first.

[00:47:59] I think probably France.

[00:48:01] So yeah.

[00:48:02] Did Dickens invent Christmas?

[00:48:05] Obviously not.

[00:48:06] To be honest, he played a, he played a sizable role in shaping it into what we celebrate today,

[00:48:15] but just a sliver of it still.

[00:48:19] Mm-hmm.

[00:48:21] Any final thoughts on Dickens and Christmas?

[00:48:24] Just that like, yeah, it would be very hard to imagine what Christmas would be if a Christmas

[00:48:32] carol didn't exist.

[00:48:34] Mm-hmm.

[00:48:34] Or if all we had was the Sexton story.

[00:48:37] Uh-huh.

[00:48:37] Which let's face it, is not, is very much a prototype.

[00:48:41] Right.

[00:48:42] Yeah.

[00:48:42] Right.

[00:48:43] Does not have the warm heartedness at all.

[00:48:45] No, it really doesn't.

[00:48:47] Um, well, we do have a couple pieces of feedback.

[00:48:49] So now opening the listener feedback channel.

[00:48:55] Uh, we, yeah, so we, we didn't get a chance to collect much feedback.

[00:49:00] To be honest, I didn't really leave enough time for that between when I released the first

[00:49:04] episode and when we're recording this one.

[00:49:06] So if you still want to send in more feedback, we would love to hear it.

[00:49:09] And we will have a special section in the next silo feedback episode, mailbag episode.

[00:49:15] So our first piece of feedback is from the TCS.

[00:49:20] Listen to the pod this morning and now watched all the Christmas carol shorts you're covering.

[00:49:24] To be honest, not a thing I thought I'd ever do, but you and Luke definitely got me interested.

[00:49:29] I really liked them and was amazed at how different they all were.

[00:49:34] I have to own that.

[00:49:36] I've not read the book correcting that now via audio book.

[00:49:39] So not having read it, I'm assuming each version included different portions to focus on,

[00:49:43] which I find really neat.

[00:49:44] And one reason I'm listening.

[00:49:46] I was impressed with the early 20th century tech in those original adaptations.

[00:49:52] It's a really good reminder of how amazing that must have been and how amazing the world

[00:49:56] is now.

[00:49:56] The 1971 short was my favorite and likely the one I'm most familiar with, although it's

[00:50:02] also the only one where Scrooge doesn't actually intrude on the Cratchit family Christmas with

[00:50:06] his presence, which I've always considered rude and which interjection does not come from

[00:50:10] the book.

[00:50:12] Thanks so much for doing this.

[00:50:13] The shorts were a great way to spend a Sunday morning.

[00:50:16] Well, thank you.

[00:50:17] The TCS.

[00:50:18] All right.

[00:50:18] Any thoughts about the TCS?

[00:50:21] Yeah.

[00:50:21] Thanks for the feedback TCS.

[00:50:23] And I'm glad we could enliven your Sunday morning.

[00:50:26] Yeah.

[00:50:27] Very curious to hear if you keep watching the others and what you think.

[00:50:32] We also heard from Maureen D.

[00:50:34] Do many people hate the Jim Carrey Disney version, which by the way, it's not one of the

[00:50:39] ones we're covering this year.

[00:50:40] It's often not included in these discussions.

[00:50:42] It's one of my favorites, especially the way the sign ages and the floor opens up with Christmas

[00:50:48] presents.

[00:50:50] And Christmas past is closer to the book too.

[00:50:53] I started reading the man who invented Christmas and I liked the film adaptation of it so much

[00:50:58] more.

[00:50:58] And yeah, Maureen, I would love to hear why you like the film adaptation so much more, because again, I haven't read the book.

[00:51:05] So I'm very curious about this.

[00:51:07] But yeah, I, I think the Jim Carrey one from that's from 2009.

[00:51:14] It's on Disney.

[00:51:15] It's an animated one and it's supposed to be extremely faithful.

[00:51:18] And it was one of the ones that just missed the list this year, but it's on the list that I've already put together a proto list for next year and it's on it.

[00:51:28] Yeah.

[00:51:28] Sorry.

[00:51:28] We couldn't, we couldn't possibly cover every single adaptation of a Christmas Carol.

[00:51:34] We'd have had to have started in like September.

[00:51:36] Yeah.

[00:51:38] At least.

[00:51:39] Um, Paul Kent says, uh, just downloaded the book.

[00:51:44] Never read it.

[00:51:45] Had no idea.

[00:51:46] It's a wonderful life was based on a Christmas Carol, which yeah, I, I said that offhand and, and it's, um, I mean, I wouldn't say based on, but inspired by let's say.

[00:51:57] Yeah.

[00:51:57] Inspired by is a better.

[00:51:59] Yeah.

[00:51:59] And he says his favorite Christmas gift, uh, was space Legos.

[00:52:04] So I need to know what kind of space Legos.

[00:52:06] Cause I looked, I looked up, I Googled space Legos.

[00:52:09] Um, of course there's star Wars.

[00:52:10] Yeah.

[00:52:10] Yeah.

[00:52:11] But there's also, you know, you can, uh, have the make rockets and things like that.

[00:52:16] But then also the coolest thing I saw was somebody did the Milky way galaxy, or there's actually a kit you can buy to do the Milky way galaxy.

[00:52:24] And it's sort of this like almost textured Lego painting.

[00:52:28] Okay.

[00:52:28] Yeah.

[00:52:28] If we don't see that as a relic at some point in silo, I feel that would be a missed opportunity.

[00:52:35] Yeah.

[00:52:35] I suppose it depends on Lego licensing deals.

[00:52:38] Yeah.

[00:52:41] All right.

[00:52:41] So that's our feedback.

[00:52:43] Uh, any final thoughts, Luke?

[00:52:45] Um, no, no.

[00:52:47] Okay.

[00:52:47] Well, we have one more episode coming in this series for this year anyway, and that is the twists.

[00:52:53] So the twists we're covering this year is Scrooged Flintstones Christmas Carol, a diva's Christmas Carol, a new diva's Christmas Carol.

[00:53:03] It's Christmas Carol spirited and Scrooge a Christmas Carol.

[00:53:09] And, um, you can find links to all of those in the intro show notes or not to all of those actually, but to a bunch of them.

[00:53:17] Um, and you, yeah, you can find the full list of everything that we're covering in the intro episode.

[00:53:21] And we talked through it there.

[00:53:22] Although, yeah, we have, as we've said, already agreed, we're going to do another round next year.

[00:53:27] So please let us know if we haven't covered your favorite yet.

[00:53:30] Uh, you'll find links to our email and discord and blue sky in the show notes.

[00:53:35] Plus links to the super cast and Patreon book club.

[00:53:37] If you're interested in the novella deep dive and extra short story, not to mention last year's coverage of the greatest gift, which is a story.

[00:53:45] Our, uh, it's a wonderful life episode from last year was based on plus more spooktober specials.

[00:53:50] And of course all the silo and Hugh Howie and doing stuff.

[00:53:54] Uh, if none of that's for you, great.

[00:53:55] We're just glad you're here.

[00:53:56] And if you enjoyed it, please do pass it on.

[00:53:59] Yeah.

[00:54:00] In regards to doing it again next year.

[00:54:02] I don't think either myself or Alicia quite realized what we'd bitten off.

[00:54:06] No.

[00:54:08] Um, but we've done our best to be, we've done our best in the, the ones we've chosen to be as sort of comprehensive as we can be.

[00:54:17] If your favorite isn't on there, rest assured we will get to it probably in 20, in 2025.

[00:54:24] Um, but just accept our heartfelt apologies for the moment.

[00:54:28] And yeah, we really didn't realize the scale of this thing.

[00:54:33] I mean, yes.

[00:54:34] We might've picked up the elves had we realized.

[00:54:36] I keep discovering new adaptations that look really cool.

[00:54:40] So if you have a favorite, uh, yeah, please do let us know because now I've got a full list going and we'll, we'll see.

[00:54:47] We'll see when we get to that.

[00:54:48] The way it's growing, it's going to be 2025, 2026, maybe 2027.

[00:54:54] Well, we're going to do towards the night before Christmas.

[00:54:56] Also one of those years.

[00:54:57] Yeah.

[00:54:59] All right.

[00:54:59] We'll do also check out the cheesy Netflix Christmas coverage on the Lorehounds feed.

[00:55:04] Plus of course, our weekly doom prophecy breakdowns.

[00:55:08] And also all the other affiliates in the network, like the star Wars Canon timeline podcast by me.

[00:55:13] Nevermind the music with music and psychology, uh, radioactive ramblings and properly Howard movie reviews.

[00:55:20] See you soon for part two, the twists until then.

[00:55:24] Try not to think too much about what an asshole Charles Dickens was.

[00:55:27] Yeah.

[00:55:27] Yeah.