Elysia and Luke's A Christmas Carol discussion takes a darker turn in this lore-down between the Guy Pearce-starring, BBC co-produced 2019 version – which adds some grimer touches to Scrooge's tale – and the 1964 Twilight Zone-like variation created to advertise the importance of the UN at a time when the US and world in general were on the brink of one war and fully entering another. They'll give you all the history, psychology, and sociology you need to get more out of these two tales of existential dread.
Note: Apologies for the mic issues in this episode, but we hope you enjoy the history and psychology deep dives!
Films discussed this episode:
- FX's A Christmas Carol (2019)
- Carol for Another Christmas (1964)
The promised links:
- Explore "hopepunk" with Elysia and Nevermind the Music
- Luke's book: The Powell Doctrine and US Foreign Policy (Military Strategy and Operational Art) (Amazon)
- Abigail Thorn reads A Christmas Carol for charity
This year's Christmas Carol classics (already released): Scrooge (1913), Scrooge (1935), The Stingiest Man in Town (1956), The Stingiest Man in Town (1975), Disney's A Christmas Carol (2009)
This season's final episode: More Christmas Carol Twists – Mr. Magoo's Christmas Carol (1962), An American Christmas Carol (1979), Ebenezer (1998), Christmas Above the Clouds (2025), Christmas Karma (2025)
Catch up on the "five staves" of last year's Dickens specials...
I – It all begins with the short opening notes episode, which sets the stage for all our Dickens Christmas coverage
II – The Dickens novella A Christmas Carol, and an audio drama of his short story "The Goblins Who Stole a Sexton" (Supercast, Patreon)
III – Many of the most classic classic Christmas Carol adaptations
IV – An intermezzo on Dickens' life and the creation of this tale
V – Finally, our first round-up of cinematic twists on the classic tale
2023 holiday special: The It's a Wonderful Life / Knife multiverse
Join the Book Club
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It Could Be Said (Luke)
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00:34 --> 00:39 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you hear the people saying singing the songs of angry adaptations of a Christmas carol?
00:41 --> 00:43 [SPEAKER_05]: Hello, I'm Alicia here again with Luke.
00:43 --> 00:44 [SPEAKER_05]: Hello, Luke.
00:44 --> 00:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, Alicia.
00:45 --> 00:45 [SPEAKER_00]: How you doing?
00:46 --> 00:52 [SPEAKER_05]: And welcome to the darkest entry in this year's Walshift Dust a Christmas carol cannon.
00:52 --> 00:58 [SPEAKER_05]: This is the third of four quarters of Dickens Christmas coverage this year.
00:57 --> 01:00 [SPEAKER_05]: this year are first quarter.
01:00 --> 01:08 [SPEAKER_05]: So we're saying four quarters because we did five staves last year because that's how a Christmas Carol, the novella's broken up.
01:08 --> 01:11 [SPEAKER_05]: This year our book was The Chimes.
01:11 --> 01:21 [SPEAKER_05]: We did a deep dive for subscribers plus some Christmas essays from Dickens and The Chimes is broken up into four books.
01:21 --> 01:22 [SPEAKER_05]: We kind of
01:22 --> 01:28 [SPEAKER_05]: We referred to it briefly in the last episode with the Christmas Carol classics part do.
01:28 --> 01:30 [SPEAKER_05]: So check that out if you haven't.
01:30 --> 01:43 [SPEAKER_05]: But this, I was just saying right before we recorded that these two films we're talking about today are much more in the tone of the times than of a Christmas Carol.
01:44 --> 01:45 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you agree?
01:45 --> 01:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I would certainly say for the, um, for the, the UN special, the, um, the Rodster, the Rodserling one.
01:53 --> 01:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I would tell you that that's true.
01:55 --> 02:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I think me at the FX BBC, gay PS1 is actually,
02:00 --> 02:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't say it's faithful to a Christmas carol, but there's a lot more of a traditional telling you of a Christmas carol in it.
02:07 --> 02:15 [SPEAKER_05]: Right, but the tone, you said, right before we recorded, you brought up the FX1 as being most similar in tone to the times.
02:16 --> 02:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I think, I think it is in tone.
02:19 --> 02:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it helps it, it's a period piece as well, so.
02:23 --> 02:24 [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.
02:24 --> 02:25 [UNKNOWN]: Yep.
02:25 --> 02:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we'll talk about it, but they're not selling one most certainly is not.
02:28 --> 02:30 [SPEAKER_01]: But it is a period period.
02:30 --> 02:30 [SPEAKER_01]: It is a period.
02:30 --> 02:31 [SPEAKER_05]: It is a different period.
02:33 --> 02:35 [SPEAKER_05]: And it was contemporaneous to its own period.
02:35 --> 02:53 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so the two that we are talking, they are the darker, more sociologically oriented effects is a Christmas Carol from 2019 and the one you may not have heard of,
02:54 --> 03:11 [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, this is the third quarter we said first quarter was our subscriber deep dive into the charms and Dickens Christmas essay second quarter is available to all and it was looking at more Christmas Carol classics at the start of that episode.
03:11 --> 03:15 [SPEAKER_05]: We rattle off all the versions of a Christmas Carol that we've talked about so far.
03:15 --> 03:21 [SPEAKER_05]: So you can see you can find those episodes linked in
03:21 --> 03:23 [SPEAKER_05]: Listen to that one if you want to a quick catch up.
03:23 --> 03:35 [SPEAKER_05]: This episode is part three and we do have one more to go after this So stick around until the end for a preview of which feel good Christmas Carol Swiss will be covering this year These are not the feel good choice.
03:35 --> 03:44 [SPEAKER_01]: That's for sure Oh, yeah, you sang one as when the entirety of Civilization is wiped out in a firing nuclear holocaust you weren't feeling all warm and firstly
03:45 --> 03:48 [SPEAKER_05]: So, spoiler is for everything, of course, it's cool.
03:48 --> 03:50 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm particularly these two movies, right?
03:50 --> 03:56 [SPEAKER_05]: And no, no, and I also, I think the darkest thing actually happened in the other one with Mrs. Cratchett.
03:57 --> 04:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, yeah, we'll definitely get to that.
04:03 --> 04:10 [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, so, the format for today, we're doing a bit different for Wolfshift Dust standards, but Laura Hounselis, nurse, might recognize this.
04:10 --> 04:14 [SPEAKER_05]: Since we are doing two films, we're going to have a lower down here.
04:14 --> 04:31 [SPEAKER_05]: So basically what we're going to do is we're going to set up the basics for both films and give our overall hot takes and then we're going to pit the two films head-to-head across six categories and whichever quote-unquote wins the most categories takes us lower down.
04:32 --> 04:33 [SPEAKER_05]: Is that clear?
04:33 --> 04:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay clear.
04:34 --> 04:38 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, let's start with with your hot takes overall.
04:39 --> 04:41 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, we don't need to get into the plot details yet.
04:41 --> 04:45 [SPEAKER_05]: We will, but what did you think of these two films?
04:45 --> 04:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I really like the FX BBC one that's in 1991.
04:51 --> 04:54 [SPEAKER_01]: The guy here's one really enjoyed that.
04:54 --> 04:57 [SPEAKER_01]: But also this probably the point where I'm going to have a moment at the BBC.
04:58 --> 05:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's BBC, I couldn't get it off Disney.
05:00 --> 05:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't get it off YouTube because it's good for you.
05:04 --> 05:13 [SPEAKER_01]: If it's not like everything disappears off the BBC eye player after a year and it just like alls into the like Did you talk this did you all black hole?
05:14 --> 05:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, but that's it's Dr.
05:15 --> 05:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Hedge.
05:16 --> 05:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah So like if you know if you don't want to use it yourself, BBC at least let Disney or whoever Yeah, properly in the UK
05:25 --> 05:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah, really don't really like the guy pissed one of the road surling one, it was an interesting little, it was an interesting little, um, period piece, but it felt too much like being lucky that, um, to be enjoyable, really, um, there was, it was, it's a, it's a stack
05:55 --> 05:55 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
05:56 --> 06:00 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I thought that was a really interesting, like, bit of mid-1960s.
06:00 --> 06:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my god.
06:05 --> 06:08 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, for what I'd be lectured out for an hour and a half.
06:09 --> 06:10 [SPEAKER_05]: OK, that's fair.
06:12 --> 06:15 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I mean, OK, so both of these got mixed reactions.
06:15 --> 06:26 [SPEAKER_05]: And I definitely understand why, in both cases, for different, but not dissimilar reasons, both are obviously seen as quite like dark and somber.
06:26 --> 06:32 [SPEAKER_05]: I would say, yeah, the FX1 is you said before, it is definitely more the closer adaptation.
06:32 --> 06:33 [SPEAKER_05]: We could have put it under classics.
06:35 --> 06:40 [SPEAKER_05]: It's, it's the same story, but it is intentionally done in a different way.
06:40 --> 06:48 [SPEAKER_05]: Like it feels like they take great pains at many points to avoid hitting the usual beats of these adaptations.
06:49 --> 06:54 [SPEAKER_05]: So it's the same story, but then like we're not going to say that
06:54 --> 07:11 [SPEAKER_05]: No, the Carol is no point in the Carol's end to screw his office and start seeing God resty very gentle The Carolers did sing a song, but like they sang a song that no other adaptation is ever used and I have never even heard of I don't even know the name of it.
07:11 --> 07:11 [SPEAKER_05]: I was just like fine.
07:11 --> 07:13 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sure it's historically accurate
07:15 --> 07:33 [SPEAKER_05]: uh yeah but then the 1964 one it's really like only the foggyest outline of the story process and and as you said it's it's not subtle no it's not subtle i'm not going to claim that um but it is very much an interesting historical relic
07:33 --> 07:55 [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's interesting to put the most side to side because like the FX1 is more about the individual forces shaping a man that one delves a lot more into psychology and sociology, whereas the UN is about the collective forces which are influenced by individuals, but it's really about the collective hole that shapes society.
07:56 --> 07:58 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think you're about the bigger picture.
07:58 --> 08:01 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a really good way of putting the distinction.
08:02 --> 08:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it completely changes the moral of the story.
08:05 --> 08:08 [SPEAKER_01]: It changes the moral of the story somewhat.
08:08 --> 08:10 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, we'll come back as well.
08:11 --> 08:24 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and I think so I recently was a guest on Nevermind the Music, and we talked about Hope Punk, the concept of Hope Punk, which we kind of posited as the opposite of Grimdark.
08:24 --> 08:35 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm actually going to link that episode in the show notes in case people are interested in a deeper idea of Hope Punk, but I feel like FX is Grimdark.
08:36 --> 08:38 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you know, does that mean something to you?
08:38 --> 08:39 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
08:39 --> 09:04 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I kind of get what you say, but no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
09:04 --> 09:10 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, a little bit a little bit a little less than usual for sure yeah
09:10 --> 09:22 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, whereas the UN-1 is more like, let's all pull together and it doesn't mean that things will immediately be okay, but as long as we all, as long as we're talking, we're not fighting.
09:26 --> 09:39 [SPEAKER_05]: Anyway, if anyone's more interested in that concept, there's that link in the show, no, it's definitely recommend never mind the music for a combination of psychology and music exploration.
09:40 --> 09:45 [SPEAKER_05]: Did you notice by the way, I saw people complaining online that the FX1 had F-bombs in it.
09:46 --> 09:49 [SPEAKER_05]: And I have to say, I only noticed one of them because they didn't mean that.
09:49 --> 09:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you only notice the one F-bombs?
09:51 --> 09:51 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
09:52 --> 09:52 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
09:52 --> 09:56 [SPEAKER_05]: So, where are we thinking of the same thing when he's talking about Loddy with the gun?
09:56 --> 09:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
09:58 --> 09:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
09:59 --> 10:00 [SPEAKER_01]: That was the one I noticed.
10:01 --> 10:01 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
10:01 --> 10:02 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
10:02 --> 10:04 [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe people are just being historical.
10:06 --> 10:08 [SPEAKER_05]: It is, it did strike, it made me laugh.
10:08 --> 10:12 [SPEAKER_05]: So I didn't mind it at all, but it did strike me like, okay, maybe that's a little necronistic.
10:13 --> 10:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, maybe with maybe when his dad turns up and kills the mouse.
10:18 --> 10:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I think there might be more, I think there might be one there.
10:22 --> 10:25 [SPEAKER_05]: I was probably screaming worst things in my head at that moment.
10:25 --> 10:26 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.
10:28 --> 10:35 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, just to before we get into the lower down a little background on each of them, FX is a Christmas Carol.
10:36 --> 10:36 [SPEAKER_05]: It came out in 2019.
10:37 --> 10:42 [SPEAKER_05]: It was a co-production between FX and the BBC, so it aired.
10:42 --> 10:43 [SPEAKER_05]: They dropped all through.
10:43 --> 10:44 [SPEAKER_05]: There was three episodes.
10:44 --> 10:48 [SPEAKER_05]: We watched it, or at least I watched it combined as a three-hour movie.
10:48 --> 10:49 [SPEAKER_05]: You said y'all want it.
10:49 --> 10:50 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, okay.
10:50 --> 11:04 [SPEAKER_05]: That's how Disney Plus has it combined as a three hour movie, but it was three chapters chapter one, the human beast chapter two, the human heart and chapter three a bag of gravel and so it split after I mean,
11:04 --> 11:17 [SPEAKER_05]: more similar to the book is split after Marley's visit and just before the first ghost arrives, then the first ghost gets like an entire episode and then the last episode is the other two ghosts in the conclusion.
11:17 --> 11:28 [SPEAKER_05]: So FX dropped all three at once on December 19th 2019 and BBC did one episode a day between the 22nd and the 24th.
11:28 --> 11:36 [SPEAKER_05]: And yeah, I was, while I was watching because I just, I watched it on Disney+, and it's called FX is a Christmas Carol.
11:36 --> 11:43 [SPEAKER_05]: And I started watching, I was like, this feels so BBC, and then I realized that what it is.
11:46 --> 11:53 [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, this one, it was directed by Nick Murphy, which it's not a name I'm really familiar with, but it was written by Stephen Knight.
11:53 --> 11:54 [SPEAKER_05]: Are you familiar with Stephen Knight?
11:54 --> 12:06 [SPEAKER_01]: uh... so steven night is the guy that wrote uh... pey blinders mm-hmm and i think he was also involved these one of the writers on the christopher no one batman okay well i think
12:06 --> 12:35 [SPEAKER_05]: mean he's he's got a massive career he's one of the three creators of who wants to be a millionaire randomly and indeed yeah the creator of piggy blinders and he also wrote screenplays for films like close circuit dirty pretty things in eastern promises and serenity so uh oh and he's going to be doing the the next bond movie that's going to be directed on it yeah so yeah big name
12:36 --> 12:44 [SPEAKER_05]: And yeah, he, Tom Hardy and Ridley Scott were the executive producers and apparently Tom Hardy was going to appear.
12:44 --> 12:47 [SPEAKER_05]: They never announced what role and then he just didn't show up.
12:47 --> 12:48 [SPEAKER_05]: So, okay.
12:48 --> 12:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm, I'm, I'm going to guess Marley.
12:51 --> 12:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm, I'm going to go.
12:52 --> 12:56 [SPEAKER_01]: You think, yeah, I'm going to say I'm going to say Marley, he would have been miscat.
12:56 --> 13:06 [SPEAKER_05]: He would have been miscastered, but I mean, I don't know.
13:06 --> 13:08 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm glad that it was Stephen Graham.
13:08 --> 13:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, Stephen Graham, Stephen Graham is also with us.
13:13 --> 13:19 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, there was another actor that was lost lost from the production, Rutger Howard.
13:20 --> 13:30 [SPEAKER_05]: He was cast as Christmas future, but he ended up being too ill to film, and then he ultimately passed away from pancreatic cancer before the show was released.
13:31 --> 13:32 [SPEAKER_05]: So that's really sad.
13:33 --> 13:33 [SPEAKER_05]: Major duck.
13:33 --> 13:38 [SPEAKER_05]: .checkter, you know, people know him from Blade Runner and a million other things, yeah.
13:39 --> 14:05 [SPEAKER_05]: Um, but yet the, like I said, the reaction to this was mixed where episode one was apparently the most watched TV show for that entire week in the UK, but then viewing numbers plummeted over the three days that followed like there was a, uh, uh, on the US side, I think or maybe as you case, I, there was a 30% fall off after the first and then yeah, people were just not
14:05 --> 14:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you can kind of see why because it's probably if you want like a modern adaptation, you're not going to get that if you want a straight retelling a book, you're not going to get that if you want some kind of like spin on the book, like I can see how it falls out.
14:25 --> 14:35 [SPEAKER_01]: It might fall between several souls because it's not a traditional adaptation, but on the other hand it's not a radical departure, either it kind of falls somewhere between the two.
14:36 --> 15:02 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I would say if, you know, what I think makes this stand out and makes it its own thing apart from all the other adaptations is that this one leans more into psychological profiling, I suppose.
15:03 --> 15:09 [SPEAKER_01]: You see him as this, you see him for what, I think, scrudges for what, thickens and plays, it's scrudges.
15:10 --> 15:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And the book, which is a broken man, you know what you say.
15:14 --> 15:43 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a study of his psychology and I think Pearce sort of does a really good job of portraying like internalized pain and internalized trauma, and also I do, I think it's just, it's just something quite cool about slightly younger version of Scrooge, the late Middle Age version of Scrooge rather than an old version of Scrooge because frankly it gives him a bit more time.
15:44 --> 15:46 [SPEAKER_01]: to be redeemed, basically.
15:46 --> 15:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I like the fact that Steve Graham is Marley has like a much expanded role in this.
15:51 --> 15:56 [SPEAKER_01]: He's almost like the Greek chorus in the background of the entire story.
15:56 --> 15:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And A. Stephen Graham is just very watchable.
16:00 --> 16:05 [SPEAKER_01]: But I like the fact you know more about Marley's character at the end of it.
16:05 --> 16:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And like Marley is going on his own little journey parallel.
16:09 --> 16:10 [SPEAKER_01]: It's proved.
16:10 --> 16:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's really cool.
16:13 --> 16:27 [SPEAKER_05]: Um, yeah, it's interesting that uh, so we're going to obviously get into the whole scourge that's a whole category about scourge and we've got a whole category about Marley so we're going to get into that more, but it is interesting both her younger in both versions.
16:27 --> 16:30 [SPEAKER_05]: So also in Carol for another Christmas.
16:30 --> 16:45 [SPEAKER_05]: They, well, we'll get into exactly how young Marley is, but it's interesting that Carol for another Christmas, we talked about this darkness and about maybe people being turned off by that with with FXBBC version.
16:46 --> 16:50 [SPEAKER_05]: This one was released on December 28, 1964.
16:50 --> 16:57 [SPEAKER_05]: So after Christmas, between Christmas and New Year's, which is an interesting time to release it, I think.
16:57 --> 17:07 [SPEAKER_05]: it's saying this and it's true like even in there's no real mention of Christmas other than Fred's going to church, right?
17:07 --> 17:11 [SPEAKER_01]: They do mention that it's Christmas Eve because that's why Fred's going to church.
17:11 --> 17:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
17:12 --> 17:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but that's that's all.
17:15 --> 17:15 [SPEAKER_05]: That's it.
17:15 --> 17:15 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
17:16 --> 17:17 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
17:17 --> 17:17 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
17:17 --> 17:17 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
17:17 --> 17:18 [SPEAKER_05]: And so careful.
17:18 --> 17:21 [SPEAKER_05]: Another Christmas was a black and white TV special.
17:21 --> 17:24 [SPEAKER_05]: But it is feature length at 84 minutes long.
17:24 --> 17:25 [SPEAKER_05]: So a nice short tidy feature.
17:26 --> 17:29 [SPEAKER_05]: But it has a really rich pedigree.
17:29 --> 17:33 [SPEAKER_05]: It was written by Rod Sirling of Twilight Zone fame.
17:33 --> 17:38 [SPEAKER_05]: And this actually came out later the year after Twilight Zone ended.
17:38 --> 17:57 [SPEAKER_05]: And Rod's Hurling, you know, considering we're going to get into the situation in which this was written, but he was known throughout Hollywood as the quote unquote angry young man because of his activism and he would often butt heads with people over.
17:57 --> 18:01 [SPEAKER_05]: Um, we have things not being done ethically as he saw.
18:01 --> 18:08 [SPEAKER_05]: And he is someone who he enlisted in the military because the military is obviously also very relevant to the story.
18:08 --> 18:12 [SPEAKER_05]: He enlisted in the military the day after his high school graduation.
18:12 --> 18:16 [SPEAKER_05]: And he really went through the ring there.
18:16 --> 18:18 [SPEAKER_05]: You know, he witnessed a death of his comrades.
18:18 --> 18:23 [SPEAKER_05]: He received injuries himself that he would, that would bother him for the rest of his life.
18:24 --> 18:25 [SPEAKER_05]: He received medals.
18:26 --> 18:33 [SPEAKER_05]: And his final assignment was to be part of the occupation force in Japan after the bomb dropped in Hiroshima.
18:33 --> 18:36 [SPEAKER_05]: So that's also why you'll see that reflected in here.
18:36 --> 18:56 [SPEAKER_05]: And he was, uh, he left the mill, he left duty in 1946, and then worked at a rehabilitation hospital while he himself healed, and, uh, to quote this, so Sirlings combat experience affected him deeply and influenced much of his writing at left him with nightmares and flashbacks of the rest of his life.
18:56 --> 19:02 [SPEAKER_05]: He said, I was bitter about everything and at loose ends when I got out of service.
19:02 --> 19:05 [SPEAKER_05]: I think I turned to writing to get it off my chest.
19:06 --> 19:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, he certainly gets a lot of his chest in.
19:09 --> 19:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know if we're in any crisis.
19:12 --> 19:14 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so that's all what's feeding into this.
19:14 --> 19:17 [SPEAKER_05]: And apparently his background is he went to after that.
19:17 --> 19:19 [SPEAKER_05]: He went to physical education school.
19:19 --> 19:21 [SPEAKER_05]: He was going to be like a physical teacher, I guess.
19:21 --> 19:26 [SPEAKER_05]: But then he got involved in the campus radio station and that's a direction, the direction he went.
19:27 --> 19:35 [SPEAKER_05]: He eventually became most known for the Twilight Zone, which ran 1959 to 1964.
19:35 --> 19:48 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, are you familiar, would you okay first let me ask did you a lot of reviewers online compare this movie to the Twilight Zone did you get it?
19:48 --> 20:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this could have been a Twilight Zone special Yeah, yeah, it just it just could have been so yeah it felt very I mean I've only watched a couple of
20:04 --> 20:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I know enough of it to know the view for all of it, the tone of it.
20:10 --> 20:12 [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm, okay, okay.
20:12 --> 20:16 [SPEAKER_05]: And are you familiar with the film's director Joseph L. Mankowitz?
20:17 --> 20:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I recognize the name, but I don't know where I recognize it from.
20:21 --> 20:26 [SPEAKER_05]: So he was, he was, um, is known as an actor's director.
20:27 --> 20:30 [SPEAKER_05]: So I, which I like my favorites of the actor's director.
20:30 --> 20:34 [SPEAKER_05]: He's originally from Wilkes Barra, which is where my well-side my family's from.
20:34 --> 20:42 [SPEAKER_05]: He grew up in New York City and he lived in Europe in Germany, specifically for a while during the YMI Republic.
20:42 --> 20:44 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you want to say what the YMI Republic is?
20:44 --> 20:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So the VIMO Republic was the German state between 1918 and 1933.
20:50 --> 20:59 [SPEAKER_01]: This sort of free experiment in democracy between the end of the fall of the Kaiser right here in the rise of Hitler.
21:00 --> 21:21 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so yeah, and it was known as um it was a time when arts flourished in Germany in particular too We see a lot of great film and they're apparently we're a lot of great parties Yeah, apparently I always think like if I had to be sent back to that time I would hang out and Berlin until about like yeah
21:21 --> 21:26 [SPEAKER_05]: until about like 33, and then as soon as the prohibition lifted in the U.S.
21:27 --> 21:28 [SPEAKER_05]: So she went to New York City.
21:31 --> 21:34 [SPEAKER_05]: But he did the same, or he went to LA, rather.
21:35 --> 21:46 [SPEAKER_05]: His brother is actually Herman Manquitz, who is a writer, who's written, you know, such, such little-known films as Citizen Kane, might you have heard of it.
21:46 --> 22:13 [SPEAKER_05]: So it's his brother, if you're wondering about the last name, his brother is someone who's a subject of the 20-20 film Mank, he was sort of an infamous figure in Hollywood, but Joseph L. Mankowitz, his directorial debut is Dragon Wick, which came out in 1946, and I was just recently talking about it on a L'Orhound subscriber episode because, yeah, watch it recently is part of my Gothic
22:13 --> 22:26 [SPEAKER_05]: My Gothic 40s, the 30s, 40s movies deep dive, he won four Joseph one four Oscars, including two for probably his most famous film All About Eve from 1950.
22:26 --> 22:28 [SPEAKER_05]: Are you familiar with that one?
22:29 --> 22:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I know the title, but I've only because I've heard it referenced and others.
22:33 --> 22:36 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's, I mean, it's, yeah, it's one of my favorites.
22:36 --> 22:39 [SPEAKER_05]: It's at one of the absolute
22:40 --> 22:51 [SPEAKER_05]: classics, classic explorations of mental health in the feminine psyche in general, but yeah, he also was known for guys and dolls from 1955.
22:51 --> 22:53 [SPEAKER_05]: He took over the disastrous Cleopatra in 1963.
22:54 --> 22:57 [SPEAKER_01]: That's where I'm, that's where I know him from.
22:57 --> 22:59 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, guys and dolls.
22:59 --> 23:00 [SPEAKER_05]: No, clear pop.
23:00 --> 23:01 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, Petra.
23:01 --> 23:03 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
23:03 --> 23:03 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
23:03 --> 23:03 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
23:03 --> 23:06 [SPEAKER_05]: And so the Carol for another Christmas was towards the end of its career.
23:06 --> 23:09 [SPEAKER_05]: I think he only did like four or five movies after this.
23:10 --> 23:17 [SPEAKER_05]: But this was the first in a series of UN TV specials sponsored by Xerox, which aired on ABC.
23:17 --> 23:19 [SPEAKER_05]: We'll get back to that part.
23:19 --> 23:30 [SPEAKER_05]: There were six planned, four were broadcast, there was this one, then there was who has seen the wind in February of 1965, which was about refugees.
23:31 --> 23:35 [SPEAKER_05]: There was once upon a tractor in September 1965 about farming.
23:35 --> 23:48 [SPEAKER_05]: There was the Poppy is also a flower and April of 1966 about opium slash heroin.
23:48 --> 23:49 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
23:50 --> 23:56 [SPEAKER_05]: And there was supposed to be two more in production was started on the fifth called the cashmere story.
23:56 --> 24:04 [SPEAKER_05]: It was going to be focused on peacekeeping efforts along the India Pakistan border, but
24:05 --> 24:19 [SPEAKER_05]: production was postponed because it was conflict going on along the border and then it just eventually never happened and I'm part of the reason the last two never happened is they were going to split these UN specials across the three major networks in the U.S.
24:19 --> 24:23 [SPEAKER_05]: So ABC obviously but then CBS
24:23 --> 24:29 [SPEAKER_05]: With Drew, they're support because they were afraid of political backlash because of the political content.
24:29 --> 24:34 [SPEAKER_05]: And then NBC, they wanted to extensively censor these for the same reason.
24:35 --> 24:40 [SPEAKER_05]: So they just ended up airing four of them on ABC, and that was that.
24:40 --> 24:42 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
24:42 --> 24:53 [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, this aired in 1964 and then was not officially aired again until Turner Classic movies aired it 48 years later in 2012.
24:53 --> 25:00 [SPEAKER_05]: But now Turner Classic movie re-ears it annually TCM and it's available on DVD and elsewhere.
25:02 --> 25:03 [SPEAKER_05]: go for my independent YouTube.
25:04 --> 25:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, YouTube is well, yep.
25:08 --> 25:10 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I should say an apparently elsewhere.
25:10 --> 25:15 [SPEAKER_05]: YouTube.
25:16 --> 25:17 [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, I'll say I
25:17 --> 25:19 [SPEAKER_05]: that it did get recognition.
25:19 --> 25:35 [SPEAKER_05]: It had mixed reviews, but at the 17th prime time Emmy awards, it did get two nominations for outstanding program achievements in entertainment, for Joseph L. Manquids and ABC, and for art direction and scenic design, but it didn't win either category.
25:36 --> 25:37 [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
25:38 --> 25:42 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you have any, before we get into, we're going to take a quick break and go into our lower down.
25:42 --> 25:51 [SPEAKER_05]: But do you have any final thoughts like, if someone's gotten this far and they have not watched either of them, would you recommend either of both?
25:51 --> 25:53 [SPEAKER_02]: I would definitely recommend the FX one.
25:53 --> 25:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I really enjoyed that.
25:55 --> 26:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was a, I thought it was a really original take on a Christmas Carol.
26:01 --> 26:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I have, I have problems with the, I have problems with the UN special in terms of,
26:08 --> 26:12 [SPEAKER_01]: what it does to the what it does to the moral of the story.
26:13 --> 26:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like I say it just if that were being let you felt like being let you check out very earnestly for an hour and 20 minutes.
26:23 --> 26:30 [SPEAKER_05]: I do for me both of these have middle plus ratings.
26:30 --> 26:37 [SPEAKER_05]: So I gave the FX1 a 3 out of 5 and I gave the
26:37 --> 26:41 [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I have, yeah, I've mixed feelings about both of them.
26:41 --> 26:43 [SPEAKER_05]: We'll talk through them after this with full spoilers.
26:44 --> 26:49 [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, I mean, what I, again, how do you really feel like this is going to happen, even?
26:49 --> 26:51 [SPEAKER_05]: It's 150 years old people.
26:53 --> 27:05 [SPEAKER_05]: Um, but yeah, I guess I am slightly more interested in the UN one because I think it's just such an interesting time capsule.
27:05 --> 27:06 [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
27:07 --> 27:12 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, did I mention, by the way, yeah, yeah, yeah, that, that, of course, the FX1 is twice as long.
27:13 --> 27:16 [SPEAKER_05]: So that's something to keep in mind too.
27:16 --> 27:18 [SPEAKER_05]: But we will, okay, we're going to take a quick break.
27:18 --> 27:22 [SPEAKER_05]: And we will, when we come back, we're going to begin the lower down.
27:22 --> 27:23 [SPEAKER_05]: There will be six categories.
27:24 --> 27:27 [SPEAKER_05]: And we will declare an ultimate dark, carol.
27:28 --> 27:29 [SPEAKER_05]: Maha.
27:37 --> 27:40 [SPEAKER_05]: welcome back and prepare for the lower down.
27:41 --> 27:45 [SPEAKER_05]: So we're going to put these two films head to head category by category.
27:45 --> 27:56 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to be in each case listing FX at your root first and the UN one second and then we'll discuss and then we'll choose a category winner and move on.
27:57 --> 28:00 [SPEAKER_05]: Starting with category one ding ding ding.
28:00 --> 28:01 [SPEAKER_05]: the setting.
28:01 --> 28:11 [SPEAKER_05]: So we have classic Dickens 2019 versus Cold War America, 20, I'm sorry, 1964.
28:11 --> 28:18 [SPEAKER_05]: Now, what is your overall feeling on these two before we get into the details?
28:19 --> 28:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, just in terms of the setting.
28:21 --> 28:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
28:22 --> 28:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, yeah, the FX one is obviously very traditional, you know, decansy, decansy in London, or decansy in England, I should say, because I think there are a couple of bits of pieces that take place outside of London.
28:40 --> 28:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the Carol for another Christmas one.
28:42 --> 28:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean,
28:44 --> 28:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it set in, I mean, I know it's shown in 1964, but is it set in 1964?
28:51 --> 28:57 [SPEAKER_05]: I just thought it was set in there because they make direct reference to it being the aftermath of World War II, basically.
28:58 --> 29:01 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, maybe you've been said a little before that if anything.
29:01 --> 29:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's what I was thinking they felt to me like it was probably a little bit a little bit late 1950s if anything.
29:09 --> 29:09 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
29:10 --> 29:17 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think the FX1 has gorgeous production design.
29:17 --> 29:23 [SPEAKER_05]: It has that dark gray filter that was especially popular during the 2010s.
29:24 --> 29:33 [SPEAKER_05]: But it's still like the details and the richness of the production design and the costumes and everything are really set you in place.
29:33 --> 29:35 [SPEAKER_05]: I never doubted for a second, it was taking place where it was.
29:35 --> 29:36 [SPEAKER_05]: You know what I mean?
29:36 --> 29:37 [SPEAKER_05]: It never looks stage or fake.
29:37 --> 29:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and actually, I think that kind of grayed out filter, um, I know what you mean about it.
29:43 --> 29:54 [SPEAKER_01]: About it being ubiquitous, but it did actually work in this, I think, because it gave you that kind of very smoky industrial, right, to everything that kind of grind me.
29:55 --> 29:58 [SPEAKER_01]: So a such a, look, to everything which is appropriate.
29:58 --> 29:59 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah.
29:59 --> 30:03 [SPEAKER_05]: It's definitely really echoed or cast of the mood.
30:03 --> 30:03 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, yeah.
30:04 --> 30:17 [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I think in terms of like the the setting as as a historical setting, I think it's interesting that the 2019 one gives us more details of Scrooge's work than most business.
30:17 --> 30:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's like Scrooge's Scrooge and Marley were like VOC basically.
30:23 --> 30:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, as that strip is yeah, they were they were building a industry and industrial conglomerate.
30:29 --> 30:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, so yeah, they're into, they're into, um, Kawakau, they're into, I think making, they've got a pin making factory.
30:38 --> 30:46 [SPEAKER_05]: They're trading in spices, they were, they had a cotton mill that they took over and then they just stripped it for parts and sold it.
30:46 --> 30:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know, I think there's not the, the scene where the factory explodes.
30:50 --> 30:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what it's like, you know, you know, I am lunges.
30:52 --> 30:54 [SPEAKER_05]: Right, there's the miners.
30:55 --> 30:58 [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, we're always talking about whether or not they show the miners that they talk about.
30:58 --> 31:01 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, they show the, are you sensitive miners?
31:01 --> 31:16 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, they showed it but usually in the thing in the book is like even the miners are jolly on Christmas And he was like the miners are like blowing explosion everybody's dying Everyone seems to care about it's a bleeding horses.
31:17 --> 31:18 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
31:18 --> 31:26 [SPEAKER_05]: They understand they understand me They understand that I would care about the horses more than the humans
31:26 --> 31:28 [SPEAKER_05]: like why why the horse is dying.
31:28 --> 31:29 [SPEAKER_05]: It's Guru Chievin.
31:29 --> 31:30 [SPEAKER_05]: That's what got him.
31:31 --> 31:33 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, if I need to him, he cared about the horse.
31:35 --> 31:38 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and then Carol is asleep.
31:38 --> 31:39 [SPEAKER_05]: We talked about singing some random Carol.
31:39 --> 31:40 [SPEAKER_05]: I know.
31:41 --> 31:49 [SPEAKER_05]: So, okay, if we look at the setting of the UN-1, 1964, maybe set before that in the 50s, I think you might be right.
31:50 --> 32:09 [SPEAKER_05]: And so, I like how they handle the fact that clearly had a smaller budget, and they handled it in a typical twilight zone way where it is in some ways like a stage production, but they use it like an asset rather than a liability, like look, this is stylistic.
32:09 --> 32:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the bit weird, the bit with the ghost of Christmas present, it's like we are very obviously on a sound stage, but also it doesn't matter because it's kind of supposed to look that way.
32:21 --> 32:21 [SPEAKER_05]: right.
32:21 --> 32:22 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
32:23 --> 32:24 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
32:24 --> 32:26 [SPEAKER_05]: And I thought it was clever.
32:26 --> 32:32 [SPEAKER_05]: For example, they didn't obviously have the money to do like the scenes that setting shots.
32:32 --> 32:35 [SPEAKER_05]: So they did these really elaborate hand drawn.
32:35 --> 32:40 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if they're pencil or charcoal drawings to introduce the setting.
32:40 --> 32:43 [SPEAKER_05]: So that was a lovely way to set it up.
32:43 --> 32:51 [SPEAKER_05]: And then once you got inside, they probably just took over some
32:51 --> 32:59 [SPEAKER_05]: So visually the whole thing, the black and white, it's been well preserved, it looks great.
33:00 --> 33:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I know, I know also like the character is not, like the character is inspired by Ebenees' Scrooge, but it's not Ebenees' Scrooge.
33:08 --> 33:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's not only is the name different, but like you say, that the motivation is different the yeah and his sort of his sort of relationship his own money is different as well.
33:22 --> 33:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
33:22 --> 33:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Like he lives in quiet sort of ground fashion.
33:26 --> 33:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
33:26 --> 33:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Or they're like, he's only, this is the thing, this is the thing, this is important.
33:30 --> 33:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Like he's not like a billionaire.
33:33 --> 33:35 [SPEAKER_01]: He's just moderately rich.
33:36 --> 33:42 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, I mean, he does live in a massive mansion and have servants.
33:42 --> 33:51 [SPEAKER_05]: So I don't, you know what, you know, who did not grow up with servants.
33:51 --> 33:54 [SPEAKER_05]: Me.
33:55 --> 33:56 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I know.
33:56 --> 34:02 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I suppose he's he's not the most wealthy, but he does live a very privileged life.
34:03 --> 34:04 [SPEAKER_05]: That's for sure.
34:04 --> 34:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, so it has that.
34:06 --> 34:10 [SPEAKER_01]: It has that 50, 60 thing of two men are talking.
34:11 --> 34:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Therefore, hard alcohol must be consumed.
34:14 --> 34:15 [SPEAKER_01]: At least by one of them.
34:15 --> 34:16 [SPEAKER_01]: At least by one of them.
34:16 --> 34:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
34:17 --> 34:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Two men can not have a conversation without somebody drinking liquor.
34:23 --> 34:28 [SPEAKER_05]: Listen, don't come at my wasp, grab up, bringing him.
34:28 --> 34:32 [SPEAKER_05]: She says and takes a sip of wine.
34:32 --> 34:36 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, so here's where I'm going to unleash you a little bit.
34:38 --> 34:39 [SPEAKER_05]: We have to talk about the setting.
34:40 --> 34:43 [SPEAKER_05]: It is an explicitly cold war setting.
34:44 --> 34:52 [SPEAKER_05]: And in order to understand the visions that we're going to talk about later, we need to understand the situation in history.
34:52 --> 34:54 [SPEAKER_05]: at the moment at which this is released.
34:55 --> 34:58 [SPEAKER_05]: And so we'll just say this is again and came out in 1964.
34:58 --> 35:04 [SPEAKER_05]: And this is shortly after the 1962 missile crisis.
35:05 --> 35:15 [SPEAKER_05]: So shout out to it, welcome to Dairy, where we are also coincidentally talking because it welcomed a dairy set in
35:15 --> 35:17 [SPEAKER_05]: the Cold War and the missile crisis.
35:17 --> 35:21 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, Luke, do you want to just set up quickly for anyone who doesn't know what the email is?
35:21 --> 35:31 [SPEAKER_01]: So the very, very short version of the Cuban missile crisis is Fidel Castro leads a communist revolution in Cuba.
35:32 --> 35:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, the, and I actually, I'm, um, listening to a book at the moment about
35:37 --> 35:43 [SPEAKER_01]: The history of the diplomacy between the United States and Cuba between, okay, 1962 and the present day.
35:43 --> 35:49 [SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, Fidel Castro leads a revolution in Cuba overthrows across U.S.R.I.
35:51 --> 36:05 [SPEAKER_01]: is the head of a very left-wing government, if not communist government, at the outset, nationalizes a
36:05 --> 36:09 [SPEAKER_01]: where they're nationalizing the casinos, that is all part of that.
36:11 --> 36:30 [SPEAKER_01]: At the CIA under the Eisenhower administration and under the Kennedy administration, tries to overthrow Castro by subversion and crop burning, psychological warfare, but it also backs Cuban excels.
36:30 --> 36:45 [SPEAKER_01]: in Miami to stage an invasion of Cuba, the infamous Bay of Pigs, it fails, that invasion fails, Castro then asks the Soviet Union for assistance in defending Cuba.
36:46 --> 36:59 [SPEAKER_01]: The Soviets are really annoyed that the US has intermediate range ballistic missiles in Western Europe, specifically Turkey, Italy, and the United Kingdom.
36:59 --> 37:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Crosscraft famously says this is an opportunity to put a hedgehog down Kennedy's pants.
37:08 --> 37:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Now there's an image, so the Soviet Union sends intermediate range missiles to Cuba.
37:15 --> 37:27 [SPEAKER_01]: The US had said repeatedly that it wouldn't accept the basing of Soviet missiles in Cuba and so there is a diplomatic military crisis that almost results in World War III.
37:28 --> 37:36 [SPEAKER_01]: In the end, it's resolved when both sides withdraw their missiles and the US is used a pledge not to invade Cuba.
37:36 --> 37:48 [SPEAKER_05]: The amazing thing to me about that is the very end there that you said about this, there's a point where both sides are being told to launch their missiles.
37:50 --> 38:00 [SPEAKER_05]: And there were two different people, both sides who said, wait a minute, just took a step back, they weren't defying orders, right?
38:00 --> 38:06 [SPEAKER_05]: But they just said, I think they're not actually launching
38:06 --> 38:13 [SPEAKER_05]: and basically prevented nuclear war because and I think that's something that's directly reference later.
38:13 --> 38:15 [SPEAKER_05]: But do you want to correct what I said at all?
38:15 --> 38:16 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no.
38:16 --> 38:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I just had to add to that.
38:17 --> 38:20 [SPEAKER_01]: If people are interested, there's really good movie from.
38:20 --> 38:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I think 2013 days, um, based on a book of the same title.
38:28 --> 38:36 [SPEAKER_01]: In 13 days, just to the movie, just take a bit of liberty in the sense that it massively contracts a number of characters.
38:36 --> 38:41 [SPEAKER_01]: to my genealogical, that is pretty, it's pretty historically at era.
38:41 --> 38:56 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, but I think about this, this Cuban missile crisis all the time, just says this moment where if people just blindly followed orders, nuclear war would have begun and life as we know it would have ended.
38:57 --> 39:05 [SPEAKER_05]: But there were just happened to be one person on each side in the right position to say, let's take a breath and think.
39:05 --> 39:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but they're, they're, they're, doesn't, they're, doesn't like that across across the coal.
39:13 --> 39:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, true.
39:14 --> 39:17 [SPEAKER_01]: My favorite one is if you ever heard of a guy called, uh, Stanislav Petroff.
39:20 --> 39:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, it sounds familiar.
39:21 --> 39:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Stanislav Petroff is a colonel and somebody has strategic rocket forces.
39:28 --> 39:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, the,
39:29 --> 39:41 [SPEAKER_01]: the nuclear arsenal of the Soviet Union and his job is to man in an early warning radar post in Moscow and it's New Year's Eve 1986.
39:41 --> 39:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Petrofen is wife of just had their first child.
39:45 --> 39:51 [SPEAKER_01]: So he trades shifts with a friend because he can't go out and celebrate New Year's.
39:51 --> 39:56 [SPEAKER_01]: The friend wants to go out and celebrate New Year's and Petrofen wants the extra money.
39:56 --> 39:58 [SPEAKER_01]: So he's sitting there in his bunker.
39:59 --> 40:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I like three in the morning with his sandwich in his thermos of coffee and all of a sudden, wow, wow, wow, the alarm goes down and it's shut and the computer shows that the a single US missile has been launched at the Soviet Union.
40:16 --> 40:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Petroff thinks that's weird because if the US was about to attack the Soviet Union, it wouldn't launch its missile
40:26 --> 40:35 [SPEAKER_01]: So he ignores, which is against all his training because a missile launched in the continent or you know, it says, we'll reach Soviet Union in 15 minutes.
40:36 --> 40:47 [SPEAKER_01]: So his job, his standing order, is to alert his chain of command that the Soviet Union can get its own missiles in the air before they're destroyed on the ground.
40:48 --> 41:07 [SPEAKER_01]: So Petroff ignores it, wait to few more minutes, along goes off again, wow, wow, wow, another mess I've been launched, Petroff ignores it for the same reason, and he's defying not only his orders, but everything he's been trained to do since he was 20.
41:08 --> 41:12 [SPEAKER_01]: to know the couple of minutes, the alarm goes off for third time, the ignores it again.
41:13 --> 41:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And what had happened is that the heat sensor on the Soviet early warning sound light at malfunction, so it read sunrise over Nebraska as the heat flow of the sound launch.
41:29 --> 41:31 [SPEAKER_01]: But guess what happens to Petroff?
41:32 --> 41:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Rather than rather than being faded as a hero, he is cautioned.
41:38 --> 41:40 [SPEAKER_01]: It's missed from the Soviet rocket forces.
41:40 --> 41:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Has half his pension taken away?
41:42 --> 41:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Is wife and his wife subsequently leaps it?
41:47 --> 41:56 [SPEAKER_01]: No, man, there's a really sudden interview in the Guardian, and I think about 2017, where he's in this tiny little flat in Moscow,
41:56 --> 42:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, because he's only living off half his pension, um, and basically, you know, it hasn't seen his kids for ages.
42:05 --> 42:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Asn't seen his wife for ages, because yeah, he disobeyed his orders.
42:11 --> 42:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
42:12 --> 42:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Think all the guns he did, right?
42:14 --> 42:16 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not his job to work out what was going on.
42:16 --> 42:18 [SPEAKER_01]: It was his job to pick up the phone.
42:19 --> 42:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
42:21 --> 42:28 [SPEAKER_05]: And this is why I am not a fan of blind obedience.
42:28 --> 42:30 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, well, so that is.
42:31 --> 42:34 [SPEAKER_05]: That all happened or I mean, I don't know, when did the Petrov thing happen?
42:35 --> 42:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you said it was me.
42:36 --> 42:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, 1983.
42:37 --> 42:37 [SPEAKER_01]: OK.
42:37 --> 42:38 [SPEAKER_05]: So it's a later.
42:39 --> 42:41 [SPEAKER_05]: But the Cuban missile crisis part happened in 1962.
42:42 --> 42:53 [SPEAKER_05]: And then two years later, the same year that this started, in addition to the whole Cold War situation, I had to look up where were we with the Vietnam War.
42:53 --> 42:54 [SPEAKER_05]: And then I asked you, Luke,
42:54 --> 43:06 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you know anything about the Gulf of Tonkin incident in August of 1964 because that seems important to this film so I knew you said, oh wait.
43:06 --> 43:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you're going to regret asking me this question.
43:09 --> 43:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Why are you going to regret asking me this question?
43:11 --> 43:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Because the first book I wrote and published was looking at the lessons that the U.S. armed forces drove Vietnam.
43:18 --> 43:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So I was basically emerged immersed in the Vietnam War for five years.
43:23 --> 43:27 [SPEAKER_01]: By the way, the U.S. armed policy and the power of doctrine are available for all good stockets.
43:28 --> 43:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Anybody's looking for a last minute?
43:30 --> 43:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm stocking for a last.
43:32 --> 43:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I will put a link in the show notes.
43:35 --> 43:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
43:36 --> 43:38 [SPEAKER_01]: So the Gulf of the Gulf of Tonken.
43:39 --> 43:42 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is where do I start?
43:42 --> 43:46 [SPEAKER_01]: The year where do I start?
43:47 --> 43:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
43:47 --> 43:51 [SPEAKER_01]: The Vietnam is divided between North and South Vietnam.
43:51 --> 43:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Coming to South Vietnam.
43:53 --> 43:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Coming to South Vietnam.
43:55 --> 44:05 [SPEAKER_01]: In 1954, after the French are forced to withdraw from Vietnam, because Vietnam had been a French colony, the country is divided.
44:05 --> 44:08 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's only supposed to be temporarily divided.
44:08 --> 44:15 [SPEAKER_01]: The idea is that in 1956, there are going to be national elections to elect a unified Vietnamese government.
44:16 --> 44:28 [SPEAKER_01]: The U.S. doesn't sign the agreement in Geneva establishing this, so what happens instead is that the Recept for a communist and non-communist group is formed north and south.
44:28 --> 44:39 [SPEAKER_01]: By 1964 there is an insurgency in South Vietnam guided, supplied armed by the North Vietnamese government.
44:39 --> 44:46 [SPEAKER_01]: The United States sends troops in as advisors to the South Vietnamese Army.
44:47 --> 45:03 [SPEAKER_01]: At the same time, the CIA is helping the South Vietnamese run a collection of sabotage and covert action programs against North Vietnam under the code name of 34A.
45:03 --> 45:12 [SPEAKER_01]: So, this involves basically fast motor boats landing commandos on the North Vietnamese coast.
45:12 --> 45:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
45:12 --> 45:31 [SPEAKER_01]: At the same time, the U.S. is running intelligence operations in international waters in the Gulf of Tonkin, which is the piece of water that is right next to North
45:31 --> 45:37 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the ships running these intelligence operations is a destroyer called the USS Maddix.
45:39 --> 45:45 [SPEAKER_01]: The Maddix is attacked by North Vietnamese patrol boats.
45:45 --> 45:50 [SPEAKER_01]: It's attacked because the patrol boats mistake the Maddix for one of these ships.
45:51 --> 45:52 [SPEAKER_01]: It's been one of the South Vietnamese ships.
45:52 --> 45:54 [SPEAKER_01]: It's been running these cover action.
45:55 --> 45:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Hidden run, commander raids.
45:57 --> 46:01 [SPEAKER_01]: The Maddox defense itself, it sees off the Vietnam.
46:01 --> 46:05 [SPEAKER_01]: It sees off the Vietnamese motorboat.
46:06 --> 46:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Lyndon Johnson's president is advised by his advisers to retaliate with their strikes against North Vietnam at that point.
46:16 --> 46:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Johnson says no, because he understands that.
46:21 --> 46:26 [SPEAKER_01]: He understands the mistake that North Vietnamese have made.
46:26 --> 46:28 [SPEAKER_01]: But he's in the middle of an election campaign.
46:28 --> 46:30 [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't want to look weak.
46:31 --> 46:37 [SPEAKER_01]: So rather than pull the Maddox out, he actually sends another destroyer into the Gulf of Tong Pin called the C Turner Joy.
46:38 --> 46:39 [SPEAKER_01]: This is called doubling down.
46:39 --> 46:41 [SPEAKER_01]: This is called doubling down.
46:42 --> 46:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And the Maddox then reports that it's coming under attack by the North Vietnamese again.
46:50 --> 46:55 [SPEAKER_01]: This time, there are no 34A raids in progress.
46:55 --> 47:12 [SPEAKER_01]: um but it turns out that a second attack never happened it was a combination of bad weather and very nervous radar operators but the Americans think it has happened
47:13 --> 47:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And Johnson also wants legislative cover for U.S. activities in Vietnam.
47:21 --> 47:30 [SPEAKER_05]: Because but can I just say also that the the Americans think it has happened is the theme that also connects to the whole human missile crisis.
47:30 --> 47:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
47:31 --> 47:31 [UNKNOWN]: So.
47:31 --> 47:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Lyndon Johnson also wants legislative cover for what's going on in Vietnam because, again, he's in the middle of election campaign, the war is not going very well, and he remembers what happened to Harry Truman when Truman sent troops to Korea without getting Congress involved.
47:48 --> 48:02 [SPEAKER_01]: So, there's been a piece of legislation sitting in a drawer in the White House for several months which would basically give the president carte blanche to use military force and Southeast Asia.
48:02 --> 48:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And as a result of this, this alleged attack, the U.S. does launch asteroids against North Vietnam.
48:13 --> 48:15 [SPEAKER_01]: in quote unquote retaliation.
48:16 --> 48:28 [SPEAKER_01]: At the same time, what comes to be known as the Gulf Tonkin Resolution is passed through Congress, unanimously in the House representatives and with only two votes against in the Senate.
48:29 --> 48:32 [SPEAKER_01]: One was Wayne Morse, the other was Ernest Grunig.
48:32 --> 48:35 [SPEAKER_01]: So Wayne Morse is from Oregon and Ernest Grunig is from Alaska.
48:36 --> 48:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell I had to commit that, I had to commit that, I had to commit that, I'm remembering.
48:41 --> 48:53 [SPEAKER_01]: So, the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution is really important because it is the legal, it is the legal cover and justification for everything that happens in Vietnam.
48:53 --> 49:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Up until 1973, it's essentially the equivalent of a declaration of war.
49:03 --> 49:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Some of us say some historians date the second Vietnam war starting from month point.
49:11 --> 49:14 [SPEAKER_05]: So, yeah, this is the point where we're at.
49:14 --> 49:22 [SPEAKER_05]: We have, we're in the aftermath of World War II, which of course evolved in many ways into the Cold War.
49:22 --> 49:26 [SPEAKER_05]: And we have the Vietnam War, meanwhile, heating up at the same time.
49:27 --> 49:32 [SPEAKER_05]: This very year that this film is released, and I'll say this is the same year at the beginning of this year.
49:32 --> 49:38 [SPEAKER_05]: Dr. Strangelove was released as well, another infamous infamous, in famous,
49:38 --> 49:43 [SPEAKER_05]: beloved anti-war film and it shares two key actors with this.
49:43 --> 49:44 [SPEAKER_05]: So we're going to bring it up again.
49:44 --> 49:45 [SPEAKER_01]: This is another piece.
49:45 --> 49:46 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's film.
49:47 --> 49:48 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
49:48 --> 49:51 [SPEAKER_05]: We're going to bring the it shares the two key actors with this.
49:51 --> 49:52 [SPEAKER_05]: So we're going to talk about it again.
49:54 --> 50:03 [SPEAKER_05]: But what would you say is the general feeling in the U.S. and more broadly about the U.N. at this moment in time?
50:03 --> 50:06 [SPEAKER_05]: about the United Nations, in case anyone knows there doesn't know it.
50:06 --> 50:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you know, that's an interesting question.
50:08 --> 50:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, Barry Goldwater in 1964 runs as runs as a very hard line called Warrior got no time for the UN, and I do see a lot of, like, I do, well, I see a lot of the caricature of Barry Goldwater in the, in the main character, um, four of this film, um, I wouldn't say
50:33 --> 50:49 [SPEAKER_01]: This is at the point in history where the UN is going from a reliably pro-American organization because when it had been set up, the UN is overwhelmingly focused on Europe and South America in terms of its membership.
50:50 --> 50:53 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is in the middle of the period of decolonization.
50:54 --> 51:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So, new members are being added to the UN rapidly, and they don't all love America?
51:01 --> 51:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the late 1940s, early 1950s, I just used to watch the UN, it's been very positive.
51:08 --> 51:09 [SPEAKER_01]: They are less positive.
51:11 --> 51:20 [SPEAKER_01]: At this point, I still think they're more positive than what they would be, than what they would be now to be honest.
51:21 --> 51:28 [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe they need to make some more U.N. Christmas movies.
51:28 --> 51:28 [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
51:29 --> 51:44 [SPEAKER_05]: So that sets up the background of both of these, the both from, wrote from the production design and also the historical settings in which they find themselves, which do you think wins round one?
51:45 --> 51:49 [SPEAKER_05]: Classic Dickens from 2019 or Cold War America from 1964.
51:51 --> 52:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to say Cold War from 1964 because I do think it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, like it is so of it's time, it's so of it's time, it's so of that particular moment that it hurts because it's not higher the Cold War in the 1950s, but it's not the,
52:12 --> 52:17 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not the count to cut, it's not the count, the culture of the late 1960s and early 1970s.
52:17 --> 52:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it feels like it's balanced on a tipping point in popular culture that really only existed for about a year and a half, right?
52:30 --> 52:58 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm going to go with you on that like in and that's not in any way to be little the effects be it BBC one because as I said that production design was especially for I mean it was definitely I'll say the production design not to share the BBC but it was more toward the effects and And I also like I said I really appreciate the way that they leaned more into what's good actually does and all the various
52:58 --> 53:01 [SPEAKER_05]: in city's details of his business and how he's ruining people.
53:02 --> 53:17 [SPEAKER_05]: So I appreciate all that, but I think the reason why I slightly lean toward the UN-1 in general is precisely for the reason of this category that it is, as you say, such an interesting and specific time capsule.
53:17 --> 53:25 [SPEAKER_05]: and also, you know, just the way it's been encapsulated by we talked a bit about the writer and director behind it, we'll talk more about the cast too.
53:26 --> 53:45 [SPEAKER_05]: And starting with the central cramudgen, so we have on the one hand Ebenezer's Scrooge play by Guy Pierce in the 2019 version and Daniel Grudge played by Sterling Hayden in the 1964 version, so let's start with, uh, with Guy Pierce, what did you think of his portrayal?
53:46 --> 53:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I really like Guy Pearce's portrayal of Struge.
53:49 --> 53:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Guy Pearce is a very good job of showing internalized pain, and that's a very difficult thing to do.
53:58 --> 54:09 [SPEAKER_01]: But he doesn't really do encapsulate that sort of solitary cloth, you know, where the clothes
54:10 --> 54:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And he does it by being like, he does it by being very formal, very correct towards, towards, towards Cratchett.
54:23 --> 54:26 [SPEAKER_01]: but ice cold as well.
54:27 --> 54:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I do like that there's a bit of the beginning where he's literally counting out the, he's literally counting out the pieces of coal and he's scolds himself when his liberality because he gives him four pieces of coal around.
54:40 --> 54:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, three.
54:41 --> 54:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And I like that little bit of detail.
54:46 --> 54:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And this, this,
54:48 --> 54:51 [SPEAKER_01]: There's something about GuyPS's face as well.
54:52 --> 54:55 [SPEAKER_01]: It's very sort of salo and sun-choo.
54:55 --> 54:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Like if you were to ask me, what does Urban Ease of Scrooge look like?
55:00 --> 55:05 [SPEAKER_01]: It would be, and I'm not saying this is shade on GuyPS, but it would be GuyPS.
55:05 --> 55:11 [SPEAKER_01]: He's got that pinch sort of slightly salo sort of complexion.
55:12 --> 55:13 [SPEAKER_05]: Hmm.
55:13 --> 55:43 [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's interesting what you say about the coal thing because also that is a point where there is like complexity in nuance and the approach of his relationship with where there's like a part of him you know he gives that extra piece of coal and it's like almost like part of him wants to be nice and then when Cratchett comes in and he's like oh you have four pieces of coal so you want me to work an extra hour he's like yes it's because I want you to work an extra hour like he can't and you know it's like and you know I curse me for being nice
55:43 --> 56:01 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, I would say I'm not going to say much about who Guy Pearces as an actor because I think most people are familiar with him, but it is interesting that he is like, you know, people have called him the hot scourge, you know, he's he's younger we've seen younger actors before.
56:01 --> 56:30 [SPEAKER_05]: But they've always played decrepit old men who are walking with the cane and just looking very elderly, if it's a younger actor, they age them up, and here you just have, he's just a middle-aged man playing middle-aged man, who's just, yeah, he's not, he doesn't seem as aged, and also Marley's younger, too, but we'll get to that.
56:30 --> 56:38 [SPEAKER_01]: But then again, these are guys in the 1840s, so, you know, life expectancy is a glyph expectancy is a good deal lower.
56:39 --> 56:42 [SPEAKER_01]: But only you would call them old, but they are older in contact.
56:42 --> 56:47 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, but it's not, it doesn't seem like he has arthritis yet or anything like that.
56:47 --> 56:51 [SPEAKER_01]: No, he's quite sort of a spry and spryly.
56:51 --> 56:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
56:52 --> 56:52 [SPEAKER_05]: Ma'am.
56:54 --> 56:57 [SPEAKER_05]: But if we get a much more...
56:58 --> 57:01 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm much darker look at his psyche.
57:01 --> 57:07 [SPEAKER_05]: Like this is the version that goes the deepest into creating a dark background for him.
57:07 --> 57:13 [SPEAKER_05]: We have you mentioned the pet arasmas, the mouse thing, his father.
57:13 --> 57:16 [SPEAKER_05]: killed the mouse that his sister gave him, which obviously upset me.
57:16 --> 57:20 [SPEAKER_05]: And it also upset me when he threw his the vision of the mouse out the window.
57:20 --> 57:24 [SPEAKER_05]: Like not cool, but yeah.
57:24 --> 57:29 [SPEAKER_05]: So we have like his his pets literally being killed by his abusive father.
57:29 --> 57:36 [SPEAKER_05]: And then his abusive father is even a complicit and like selling, renting him out to the schoolmaster who's sexually abusing him over breaks.
57:37 --> 57:42 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, whoa, yeah, this is, this is, this is,
57:42 --> 57:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Really dog.
57:43 --> 57:46 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah.
57:47 --> 58:10 [SPEAKER_05]: But then they add to that that he seems to have, he seems to be probably neurodivergent probably has an anxiety disorder, you know, we see him having like he identifies with statistics more than anything else he's constantly counting like the steps
58:11 --> 58:14 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, but he does, by the way, he leaves the coins on Marley's eyes.
58:15 --> 58:18 [SPEAKER_05]: I'll give him credit for that, because we were just talking about when was that, which one was that?
58:18 --> 58:26 [SPEAKER_05]: That was a temporary one where he takes the top of the...
58:26 --> 58:28 [SPEAKER_05]: But he seems to be an atheist in this one.
58:28 --> 58:30 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you think that it's courage being an atheist?
58:30 --> 58:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that, I think that's, I think that fits Grooch.
58:33 --> 58:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's also to do with that.
58:35 --> 58:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's also to do with the time in which it's made.
58:42 --> 58:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Because like, I think that the original novella is as close to being atheistic as you could be if you wanted to sell books in the 1840s.
58:53 --> 59:00 [SPEAKER_01]: It really does play down, it religious aspect of Christmas
59:00 --> 59:08 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think he's very, I think the atheism is very much in the spirit and the spirit of the book if not in the letter of the text.
59:09 --> 59:16 [SPEAKER_05]: And we see, I mean, we see definitely, this focus is on like, why is he such a miserable bastard?
59:16 --> 59:36 [SPEAKER_05]: And he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, he goes,
59:36 --> 59:46 [SPEAKER_05]: thing that they would collect donations, basically, for, you know, it's physical donations, like, um, uh, and the thing whole did need.
59:47 --> 59:47 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
59:47 --> 59:48 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
59:48 --> 59:51 [SPEAKER_05]: Like clothing, household, objects, things like that.
59:51 --> 01:00:02 [SPEAKER_05]: but he notes that the rag and bow man comes every few days all year round except for I forget when it he say like, I don't know, he's a good guy.
01:00:02 --> 01:00:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's got 12 days in July.
01:00:04 --> 01:00:05 [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
01:00:05 --> 01:00:07 [SPEAKER_05]: He takes a vacation every year, but he comes the rest of the year.
01:00:08 --> 01:00:14 [SPEAKER_05]: So that is an argument against his whole Christmas only is one day of goodness, right?
01:00:14 --> 01:00:15 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think so.
01:00:16 --> 01:00:27 [SPEAKER_05]: I also think it's interesting, and they didn't lean into this as much as I expected from the beginning, and I wish they had, but the fact that we see Scrooge missing Marley at the beginning where he's talking to his empty chair.
01:00:27 --> 01:00:46 [SPEAKER_05]: Because, oh yeah, that is interesting that they've said, so they have this in 1843, is when it's supposed to be set, but then Marley only died the year before, it seems like,
01:00:46 --> 01:00:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and we'll talk about how we know what it says on this grave, so.
01:00:51 --> 01:01:01 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, no, I have some questions about that, but anyway, but it's a bit, we see Scrooge legitimately morning, Marley, which we sometimes see, but I kind of wish they had gone done more with that in this.
01:01:01 --> 01:01:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I've told you my friend Simon Theory on on Scrooge.
01:01:08 --> 01:01:09 [SPEAKER_05]: I think so, but tell me again.
01:01:09 --> 01:01:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Well Simon's Simon's whole theory is that Scrooge and Marley are actually like in a repressed homosexual relationship.
01:01:12 --> 01:01:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, and that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why, that's why
01:01:24 --> 01:01:28 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, I mean, yeah, that's certainly applies to one of these to the other one.
01:01:28 --> 01:01:28 [SPEAKER_05]: No.
01:01:32 --> 01:01:40 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and I'll just say, you know, we talked about them avoiding the classic booklines, but they did finally give Scrooge the, like, you can't have Scrooge and not have the are known.
01:01:40 --> 01:01:41 [SPEAKER_05]: Are there no prisons?
01:01:42 --> 01:01:44 [SPEAKER_05]: Are there no workhouses?
01:01:44 --> 01:01:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, I like the way they did the conversation with nephew Fred as well, because Fred's like, this is the last time I'm going to do this.
01:01:53 --> 01:01:57 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, Fred has his well, there's a category dedicated to friends and family.
01:01:58 --> 01:01:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:01:59 --> 01:02:21 [SPEAKER_05]: Mia and I also the one last thing that I have about Scrooge is that it's interesting how they dive into and and call him out on the fact that he is initially intellectualizing everything he sees like he keeps making excuses for himself justifying his behavior like he's looking for free passes to forgiveness.
01:02:21 --> 01:02:39 [SPEAKER_05]: And the movie is saying that, yes, these horrible things happen to you, but you're the one who close your eyes to the goodness around you and you're the one who's going to pay for that if you don't open your heart.
01:02:39 --> 01:02:39 [SPEAKER_05]: Yep.
01:02:39 --> 01:02:41 [SPEAKER_05]: Any more thoughts on the guide peer side?
01:02:41 --> 01:02:42 [SPEAKER_05]: Nope.
01:02:43 --> 01:02:43 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
01:02:43 --> 01:02:50 [SPEAKER_05]: All right, let's talk about Sterling Hayden plays not Scrooge, but he plays Daniel Grudge.
01:02:51 --> 01:02:58 [SPEAKER_05]: Which, all right, Grudge obviously kind of sounds like Scrooge, but clearly they want us to think about Grudge.
01:02:58 --> 01:03:09 [SPEAKER_05]: Now one thing is we'll talk about it more in a minute because that's the next category is Marley, but we find out his son died at war, so maybe he's holding a grudge there.
01:03:09 --> 01:03:13 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you think there's like a bigger like the U.S. is holding a grudge?
01:03:14 --> 01:03:17 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, I think this is I think this is a classic.
01:03:17 --> 01:03:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes this is a guy or it's just a cigar.
01:03:21 --> 01:03:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Kind of thing.
01:03:21 --> 01:03:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I think he is the one.
01:03:23 --> 01:03:27 [SPEAKER_01]: He is the one holding the
01:03:27 --> 01:03:30 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, okay.
01:03:30 --> 01:03:32 [SPEAKER_05]: We'll just talk about the actor himself for a minute.
01:03:32 --> 01:03:34 [SPEAKER_05]: Are you familiar with Sterling Hayden?
01:03:34 --> 01:03:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
01:03:35 --> 01:03:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I only think Doctor Strange love.
01:03:37 --> 01:03:38 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, okay.
01:03:39 --> 01:03:48 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, he was known primarily as a leading man in westerns in film noir, like the asphalt jungle or Stanley Kubrick's The Killing.
01:03:48 --> 01:03:51 [SPEAKER_05]: And yeah, he did play the same year.
01:03:51 --> 01:04:00 [SPEAKER_05]: This came out, as we said, 1964, he played General Jack D. Ripper, the paranoid commander of the Burpelson Air Force Base in Dr.
01:04:00 --> 01:04:09 [SPEAKER_05]: Strange Love, or how I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb, which I mean, we're not explaining this movie, but I'm assuming most people have heard of it.
01:04:09 --> 01:04:12 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and if you haven't heard of Dr.
01:04:12 --> 01:04:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Strange Love,
01:04:13 --> 01:04:23 [SPEAKER_01]: go and treat yourself, pause this podcast and go and watch it because it is one of the best black comedies ever made.
01:04:24 --> 01:04:38 [SPEAKER_01]: It is very, I always love the fact that the Kubrick originally wanted to make a drama and then did the research and decided the only way to tackle the company
01:04:38 --> 01:04:50 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I mean, yeah, so it's it's a black and white are considered artistic masterpiece, but also yeah, we'll consider one of the greatest settires of all time, I guess.
01:04:50 --> 01:04:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:04:52 --> 01:05:00 [SPEAKER_05]: But I would say modern audiences might know Sterling Hayden best as the Irish American policeman kept in Macleski in the godfather.
01:05:00 --> 01:05:02 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, is that it?
01:05:03 --> 01:05:04 [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
01:05:04 --> 01:05:05 [SPEAKER_05]: Later, after this.
01:05:05 --> 01:05:05 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:05:06 --> 01:05:12 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, but he, he, in his, uh, pre-acting career, he fought in World War II.
01:05:13 --> 01:05:16 [SPEAKER_05]: Under, he fought under, well, he was already, it wasn't pre-acting.
01:05:16 --> 01:05:17 [SPEAKER_05]: He was already famous.
01:05:18 --> 01:05:25 [SPEAKER_05]: And so when he went to war, he, well, first of all, he was medically discharged and then he went back in, who's very insistent.
01:05:25 --> 01:05:26 [SPEAKER_05]: He wanted to be part of this.
01:05:26 --> 01:05:29 [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but he was also afraid that people would treat him
01:05:29 --> 01:05:45 [SPEAKER_05]: differently because of his fame so he went by the name John Hamilton and then in 1943 actually legally changed his name to John Hamilton so that so that Sterling Hayden became his screen name
01:05:45 --> 01:05:46 [SPEAKER_05]: and John Hamilton became his real name.
01:05:46 --> 01:05:52 [SPEAKER_05]: So it was like, after this, the war persona, the war doctor was the real doctor.
01:05:52 --> 01:05:53 [SPEAKER_05]: That's just confused.
01:05:53 --> 01:05:56 [SPEAKER_05]: That's just confused.
01:05:56 --> 01:06:00 [SPEAKER_05]: But I think, yeah, it probably says something about the profundity of his experience.
01:06:00 --> 01:06:19 [SPEAKER_05]: He also earned an order of merit and left active duty in 1945 and when he returned to the US in 1945 he told the press I feel a real obligation to make this a better country and I believe that movies are the place to do it.
01:06:19 --> 01:06:38 [SPEAKER_05]: So that was 1945, and he ended up joining the Communist Party for Wow, which of course put him under fire in the 1950s from the House Committee on Un-American Activities, who were trying to root out all the quote unquote commis in Hollywood.
01:06:38 --> 01:06:49 [SPEAKER_05]: And he became afraid for his career,
01:06:49 --> 01:07:00 [SPEAKER_05]: from his quote unquote youthful and discretion of joining the Communist Party, not only joining it, but also helping to set up the committee to fight back against the committee and un-American activities like he was all in.
01:07:00 --> 01:07:13 [SPEAKER_05]: And now he got cold feet and was kind of like, I'm sorry, and then because of that, they, and because of his ties before that, they decided they could use him as a pawn and they threatened custody of his children.
01:07:14 --> 01:07:17 [SPEAKER_05]: And on their things, and obviously his career
01:07:17 --> 01:07:20 [SPEAKER_05]: and he ended up agreeing to name names.
01:07:21 --> 01:07:41 [SPEAKER_05]: So in the 50s, during the blacklist and investigations, he named names of other people who were close to him and people in the industry, and later in his autobiography, he wrote, I don't think you have the foggyest notion of the contempt I have for myself, since the day I did that thing.
01:07:41 --> 01:07:46 [SPEAKER_05]: So this film, 1964, it's happening after all of that.
01:07:46 --> 01:07:50 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you think this is his own story of repentance?
01:07:51 --> 01:07:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, I'm just thinking about that, as you said it, because I had no idea of the story.
01:08:00 --> 01:08:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Ah, that's all I saw in the show.
01:08:03 --> 01:08:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that there is a lot more going on, there's a lot more going on in the background of the film that I gave you credit for.
01:08:13 --> 01:08:22 [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, I wonder, this is, I think this is him also is being like, no, listen, I've been through, I've been on all sides of this and this is what I think.
01:08:23 --> 01:08:26 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, would you think of him as Scrooge?
01:08:26 --> 01:08:28 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, Gretche is just grudge.
01:08:29 --> 01:08:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think this is where I start to have issues with this film, because it is very, very, very, very po-faced and very, very earnest and very, very talking.
01:08:48 --> 01:08:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it basically is just the whole thing is a combination of two people having a conversation.
01:09:00 --> 01:09:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and that gets really even though it's only like my own album, that is really oppressive.
01:09:08 --> 01:09:13 [SPEAKER_01]: After a while, it does feel like it does feel like you're being shouted at at someone.
01:09:13 --> 01:09:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And the thing is, grudges such a caricature, like he is such a caricature of the the militant isolationist.
01:09:26 --> 01:09:29 [SPEAKER_01]: trigger happy, so the rest of the world.
01:09:30 --> 01:09:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that was watching this.
01:09:35 --> 01:09:42 [SPEAKER_01]: The same day I was reacting to the abomination that is the new national security striker, the new national.
01:09:42 --> 01:09:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, security strategy released by the Trump administration.
01:09:47 --> 01:09:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I think Daniel Grudge would have been a vote would have fit very comfortably into, uh, interview Hague Seth's Pentagon, but that's a, that's a, a story for another day.
01:09:57 --> 01:10:08 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, yeah, this, this film definitely feels, on point, in my opinion, it does, but yeah, it's just like,
01:10:09 --> 01:10:21 [SPEAKER_01]: But there is no room for nuance in this, and this encourages character and there's no room for nuance in this story.
01:10:22 --> 01:10:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I did just feel like, I mean, I'm sure we might get into this, you know, the categories, but it did feel like two.
01:10:30 --> 01:10:35 [SPEAKER_01]: and no pun intended, but two very black and white positions, arguing with each other.
01:10:35 --> 01:10:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think this is more of the case when it comes to the ghost of Christmas present.
01:10:44 --> 01:10:57 [SPEAKER_01]: But the scene between him and Fred, Fred is so idealistic and grudges so cynical that it's like, come on this.
01:10:57 --> 01:11:02 [SPEAKER_01]: This, this got this, I've got this definitely devil's advocate.
01:11:02 --> 01:11:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:11:03 --> 01:11:06 [SPEAKER_01]: This got it, this got to be room to something more than this.
01:11:07 --> 01:11:32 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, yes, so we have this situation here, is that Fred, I will get it in a minute, but Fred comes to him to grudge and says like this professor, John Jack Harris, he was supposed to have like an exchange with the Polish professor to, you know, share information basically between Poland and the US and, you know, the research and all that.
01:11:32 --> 01:11:42 [SPEAKER_05]: And Grudge is very xenophobic, and he's like, we don't need any of the other to come into our place, and we don't need our people to go to the other place.
01:11:43 --> 01:11:46 [SPEAKER_05]: And that's where it all kind of begins with him.
01:11:47 --> 01:11:50 [SPEAKER_05]: That's the position, that's his screw genus.
01:11:49 --> 01:11:50 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:11:50 --> 01:11:51 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:11:51 --> 01:11:52 [SPEAKER_05]: So, okay.
01:11:52 --> 01:11:58 [SPEAKER_05]: I think I know the answer to this, but who are we naming the winner of this count?
01:11:58 --> 01:11:58 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm sorry.
01:11:58 --> 01:12:01 [SPEAKER_01]: The FX one wins this.
01:12:01 --> 01:12:01 [SPEAKER_05]: No, that's fine.
01:12:01 --> 01:12:02 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:12:02 --> 01:12:03 [SPEAKER_05]: That's fine.
01:12:03 --> 01:12:04 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm with you on that.
01:12:04 --> 01:12:04 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
01:12:04 --> 01:12:05 [SPEAKER_05]: So we're one to one.
01:12:06 --> 01:12:09 [SPEAKER_05]: And this is a good spot to take another break.
01:12:09 --> 01:12:12 [SPEAKER_05]: And when we come back, we're going to talk about all of the ghosts.
01:12:13 --> 01:12:15 [SPEAKER_05]: See you in the other side.
01:12:24 --> 01:12:25 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, welcome back.
01:12:25 --> 01:12:29 [SPEAKER_05]: We are here for category three of the Lordown.
01:12:29 --> 01:12:32 [SPEAKER_05]: And this is the Marley of it all.
01:12:32 --> 01:12:39 [SPEAKER_05]: So we have in one corner from 2019, Jacob Marley, played by Stephen Graham.
01:12:40 --> 01:12:49 [SPEAKER_05]: And from the other corner in 1964, we have Marley Grudge played by photo standins.
01:12:49 --> 01:12:55 [SPEAKER_05]: So let's start with obviously one of these plays a bigger role, but both of them are key to the story.
01:12:56 --> 01:12:58 [SPEAKER_05]: Let's start with the Stephen Graham of it all.
01:12:58 --> 01:13:01 [SPEAKER_05]: What did you think of the FX Marley?
01:13:01 --> 01:13:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I really, this is one of my favorite aspects of it.
01:13:04 --> 01:13:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I said earlier, I really like the fact that they've expanded Marley's role.
01:13:08 --> 01:13:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's almost like the Greek chorus in the background of the whole thing.
01:13:13 --> 01:13:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm also like the openings, the opening scene.
01:13:18 --> 01:13:29 [SPEAKER_01]: of this is a young man walking up to Marley's grave on zipping his trousers and pissing literally literally pissing on Marley's grave.
01:13:30 --> 01:13:40 [SPEAKER_05]: But I have a question because later they say that that kid goes there takes the train every Christmas to do that, but didn't work on Christmas.
01:13:40 --> 01:13:41 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:13:41 --> 01:13:42 [SPEAKER_05]: He's like he did it once.
01:13:42 --> 01:13:43 [SPEAKER_05]: You say he did it once.
01:13:43 --> 01:13:47 [SPEAKER_05]: But he plans to do it again because I'm doing that next do that was fun.
01:13:47 --> 01:13:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, literally walks up to pisses on his throat.
01:13:51 --> 01:13:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you see the, the, the, you see the, you see the, you see, um, my late lying in his coffin getting wet.
01:14:00 --> 01:14:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And I do just like the, it clearly says on the headstone, rest in peace.
01:14:05 --> 01:14:17 [SPEAKER_01]: But I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I love the, I
01:14:18 --> 01:14:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Another bit of Victoria on her, he rings the bell, is that there is often a bell attached to coffins, that can bring in case they're actually buried alive.
01:14:28 --> 01:14:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I thought of you in this scene, the least you wouldn't mind is in hell.
01:14:33 --> 01:14:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's having it's changed forged.
01:14:35 --> 01:14:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I just, Stephen Graham, great actor, love the fact that they make more use of Marley.
01:14:45 --> 01:15:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, like I said, there's a really good special effect where Scrooge goes to open the door, the bottom half of the knuckle falls off, and that's the bottom half of Marley's jaw that falls off.
01:15:05 --> 01:15:08 [SPEAKER_01]: the bottom half, so he's not got the rappa, he's just got her.
01:15:09 --> 01:15:26 [SPEAKER_05]: Right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right,
01:15:26 --> 01:15:45 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, because the door knocker haunt, that's one of the ones that I always pay attention to when I'm thinking about the adaptation aspect, and I was like, oh, that was a very subtle haunt with the bottom falling off, but tied together nicely with Marley's draw literally falling off.
01:15:45 --> 01:16:07 [SPEAKER_05]: And Stephen Graham, I mean, I know for you it's probably inconceivable that some Americans may not be familiar, but he is definitely a UK talent stable, probably best known maybe too much of Americans for just having won the Emmy for adolescence this year, I don't know if you have anything to add about Stephen Graham who he is.
01:16:08 --> 01:16:10 [SPEAKER_01]: He is in the Irishman.
01:16:10 --> 01:16:13 [SPEAKER_01]: He's in everything.
01:16:14 --> 01:16:15 [SPEAKER_01]: He's in a lot of stuff.
01:16:16 --> 01:16:21 [SPEAKER_01]: He's definitely one of those actors that likes to be in work.
01:16:22 --> 01:16:25 [SPEAKER_01]: probably his breakout role is the series.
01:16:25 --> 01:16:26 [SPEAKER_01]: This is England.
01:16:26 --> 01:16:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know whether you would have seen one.
01:16:28 --> 01:16:29 [SPEAKER_05]: I haven't seen that one.
01:16:29 --> 01:16:32 [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe I wasn't he in that one.
01:16:32 --> 01:16:38 [SPEAKER_05]: The restlessy Davies one, the years and years.
01:16:38 --> 01:16:40 [SPEAKER_05]: I haven't seen that so I don't know.
01:16:40 --> 01:16:41 [SPEAKER_05]: That's one I always think about.
01:16:41 --> 01:16:47 [SPEAKER_05]: But anyway, he's his UK stable for sure, BBC's
01:16:47 --> 01:16:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I don't know, but we BBC, no, actually, he's just famed on BBC stuff, but I should always think of him more as a channel full god.
01:16:55 --> 01:16:58 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, okay, I would to be, wait, is this on channel?
01:16:58 --> 01:17:00 [SPEAKER_05]: No, no, no, it's watching something else on channel.
01:17:00 --> 01:17:02 [SPEAKER_05]: Never mind, no, I'll raise what I was thinking.
01:17:03 --> 01:17:05 [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, as far as you said, he was sent to hell.
01:17:05 --> 01:17:08 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to push that back on that slightly, because
01:17:08 --> 01:17:20 [SPEAKER_05]: This is I think this is purgatory because we see when he first goes down there's a bell that's ringing and there's text on the bell ahead to pause and to read it, but it says hope and longing purgatory England.
01:17:21 --> 01:17:36 [SPEAKER_05]: and then in another point he calls it not quite hell or when he speaks to the spirit he meets down there who never came back at the end by the way I expected us to get the story of what happened with the black guy in purgatory but he's just the one who kicks it off.
01:17:36 --> 01:17:37 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
01:17:38 --> 01:17:42 [SPEAKER_05]: Anyway, he calls it not quite hell.
01:17:42 --> 01:17:47 [SPEAKER_05]: And I liked that they beefed up the role.
01:17:47 --> 01:17:55 [SPEAKER_05]: I liked that they made more explicit that Marlene's Guruji's fates are tied together, which I kind of assumed from most other adaptations.
01:17:56 --> 01:18:06 [SPEAKER_05]: But I do have to say if I have my biggest, okay, if I have two knocks for this adaptation, one will talk about it later, but some of the darkness and like did,
01:18:06 --> 01:18:06 [SPEAKER_05]: they go too far.
01:18:06 --> 01:18:16 [SPEAKER_05]: And then I would say the other thing is sometimes it felt like it lagged and one of the things was like, Marley and Leslie going through Purgatory.
01:18:16 --> 01:18:17 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm like, that's enough Purgatory now.
01:18:17 --> 01:18:18 [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you.
01:18:18 --> 01:18:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but it's not a whole plank Purgatory.
01:18:23 --> 01:18:23 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:18:23 --> 01:18:26 [SPEAKER_05]: But the audience shouldn't be in Purgatory.
01:18:26 --> 01:18:27 [SPEAKER_05]: But no, I understand.
01:18:28 --> 01:18:30 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, question though.
01:18:30 --> 01:18:37 [SPEAKER_05]: We, and I'm assuming just Stephen Graham wasn't available to film at this point, but we never saw Marley in the offices.
01:18:37 --> 01:18:44 [SPEAKER_05]: We like we saw him in Scrooge, out doing business together elsewhere, but like what was Marley's relationship with Cratchett?
01:18:44 --> 01:18:50 [SPEAKER_01]: He was never around for any of that stuff.
01:18:50 --> 01:18:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Because again, it kind of, it comes back to the fact that they've altered the timeline.
01:18:54 --> 01:18:56 [SPEAKER_01]: They've tell us what's got the timeline.
01:18:56 --> 01:18:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's one year rather than seven.
01:18:59 --> 01:19:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Because although it's not sort of stated in the novella, I always sort of, in my head, Cratcher is recruited to the firm after Marley Dahlys just sort of helped Scrooge manage all the flow of business through the office.
01:19:14 --> 01:19:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, I mean, it felt like I was just in the crotchet and Marley didn't know each other because it's seven years in between in the novella, yeah, yeah, but yeah, in this one, it's much more likely that because they have been monkey drowned with the timeline that Crotchet was working for the foot and when Marley was there.
01:19:31 --> 01:19:34 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that would have been interesting to find out.
01:19:35 --> 01:19:42 [SPEAKER_05]: I do think that there are adaptations where we see flashbacks where, um, catch it is there while Marley's there.
01:19:42 --> 01:19:43 [SPEAKER_05]: But anyway, I don't know.
01:19:43 --> 01:19:50 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, here is just, they didn't connect those two aspects of Scrooge.
01:19:50 --> 01:20:00 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, but switching to the a Carol for another Christmas in this the 1964 one Marley was Grudge's son.
01:20:01 --> 01:20:02 [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you.
01:20:02 --> 01:20:03 [SPEAKER_05]: What?
01:20:03 --> 01:20:04 [SPEAKER_05]: So.
01:20:04 --> 01:20:16 [SPEAKER_05]: Marley is the tie that binds together Grudge and Fred, because we never, well, that's more for the second next category, but doesn't we never hear about Fred's mom who would be Scrooge's or Grudge's sister.
01:20:16 --> 01:20:18 [SPEAKER_05]: So that's just not a factor.
01:20:18 --> 01:20:24 [SPEAKER_05]: So the bind, the tie is Grudge and Fred together is Marley, the son that died.
01:20:24 --> 01:20:27 [SPEAKER_05]: He died in war on Christmas Eve, of course.
01:20:28 --> 01:20:32 [SPEAKER_05]: Apparently
01:20:33 --> 01:20:44 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I mean, this is sort of, I guess like there's an anti-war message to this movie, but I would say even more than that, there's an anti-isolationist message.
01:20:44 --> 01:20:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think the message of this film was really, really confused.
01:20:51 --> 01:21:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Because on the one hand, you say it's anti-isolationist,
01:21:00 --> 01:21:11 [SPEAKER_01]: because, again, Barry Goldwater is running on a cognizalationist ticket, but it's also very anti-war.
01:21:12 --> 01:21:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I find that the politics of this film both have a present and also quite sort of confusing.
01:21:20 --> 01:21:21 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, okay.
01:21:22 --> 01:21:27 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, we have, I mean, for me, I see the balance there and actually, I'll get into it later.
01:21:27 --> 01:21:31 [SPEAKER_05]: We'll get into the politics more because that's more important in the visions, but, um,
01:21:32 --> 01:21:49 [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, for instance, we get here closing your eyes, that's called sleeping and it also leads to dying, it's like one of the main messages that come through, but I can see as far as who grudges in the fact that they made Marley a son that he has lost.
01:21:49 --> 01:22:12 [SPEAKER_05]: He probably suggesting that he is isolating himself because, like, he thinks if my son hadn't gone to war, if we just hadn't gotten involved, my son would still be alive.
01:22:13 --> 01:22:15 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, it's a classic song from World War II.
01:22:16 --> 01:22:22 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so yeah, the whole, um, we don't get like the door knocker situation.
01:22:22 --> 01:22:30 [SPEAKER_05]: Instead, we get a reflection in the door, we get a glimpse of him in the other room and we get the whole phonograph shenanigans.
01:22:30 --> 01:22:42 [SPEAKER_05]: What did you think about that is, I mean, because I understand, like, obviously with the illustration, they don't have an outside set, they can use.
01:22:42 --> 01:22:43 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
01:22:43 --> 01:22:43 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:22:44 --> 01:22:46 [SPEAKER_05]: The whole phone and graph not turning off thing.
01:22:46 --> 01:22:49 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:22:49 --> 01:22:49 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
01:22:49 --> 01:22:52 [SPEAKER_05]: So let's turn to the staff and the rest of the family.
01:22:52 --> 01:22:57 [SPEAKER_05]: So we have in 2019, we have most of the classic Dickens characters, but not all.
01:22:58 --> 01:23:02 [SPEAKER_05]: And then in 1964, we have the household staff.
01:23:02 --> 01:23:05 [SPEAKER_05]: We have one female lieutenant randomly and we have red.
01:23:06 --> 01:23:06 [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
01:23:06 --> 01:23:09 [SPEAKER_05]: So starting with 2019,
01:23:10 --> 01:23:14 [SPEAKER_05]: What did you think of the 2019 supporting staff?
01:23:15 --> 01:23:21 [SPEAKER_05]: So we're leaving out the ghosts and such for now, but the employees and friends and family.
01:23:22 --> 01:23:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Crotchett Claps back quite a bit in this.
01:23:25 --> 01:23:28 [SPEAKER_05]: He is salty in this very, yeah.
01:23:28 --> 01:23:32 [SPEAKER_05]: He's like, uh, what is it?
01:23:32 --> 01:23:35 [SPEAKER_05]: Scrooge is like, oh, there should be a day where everyone's cruel.
01:23:35 --> 01:23:36 [SPEAKER_05]: That should be a special day.
01:23:36 --> 01:23:38 [SPEAKER_05]: And he's like, they'd call it Scrooge day.
01:23:38 --> 01:23:39 [SPEAKER_05]: You're bastard.
01:23:40 --> 01:23:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:23:40 --> 01:23:43 [SPEAKER_05]: I had a last part of the last part of the world.
01:23:43 --> 01:23:44 [SPEAKER_01]: What was it?
01:23:44 --> 01:23:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, be careful of the word litigation.
01:23:46 --> 01:23:47 [SPEAKER_01]: You misspell it.
01:23:47 --> 01:23:50 [SPEAKER_01]: You misspell it off when I'm misspelled it once.
01:23:50 --> 01:23:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes, God.
01:23:52 --> 01:23:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:23:54 --> 01:24:11 [SPEAKER_05]: Hmm, yeah, I mean, they do establish their crotchets as churchgoers for, well, we'll get to, we'll talk about Mary separately in a minute, but just sort of like the whole moral, la la la, um, by the way, did you recognize?
01:24:11 --> 01:24:16 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you know more Skibbin, oh, sorry, do you know Lenny Rush, the Tiny Tim actor?
01:24:17 --> 01:24:20 [SPEAKER_05]: No, but apparently he was according to the Triumph series in Doctor Who.
01:24:21 --> 01:24:27 [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, he was more Skibbin's in the last two episodes of new new Who Season 1.
01:24:28 --> 01:24:28 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
01:24:29 --> 01:24:32 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, but this is a younger, younger version of him.
01:24:33 --> 01:24:35 [SPEAKER_05]: Um, yeah, I mean,
01:24:36 --> 01:24:53 [SPEAKER_05]: that I think we can't skirt anymore around the whole Mrs. Cratchett of it all the fact that this whole situation so Mary Cratchett, she this is a whole new aspect of the adaptation and I have really mixed feelings about it.
01:24:53 --> 01:24:56 [SPEAKER_05]: I think it does really interesting things and I also hate it.
01:24:56 --> 01:25:08 [SPEAKER_05]: Um, but she thinks her husband thinks she's been getting money for their son from their well her wealthy cousin in America um, but then we see her like throwing letters in the fire and she's clearly upset about it.
01:25:08 --> 01:25:23 [SPEAKER_05]: By the way, the fact that when they have this exchange and they talk about how many teas are on the name, I thought that there was only one two teas last year, but now there's only one
01:25:23 --> 01:25:31 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, the whole one to two teeth thing was felt made me feel called out for the fact that I never know how to spell crotch it.
01:25:35 --> 01:25:41 [SPEAKER_05]: Um, but anyway, the dark part is so seven years ago, so they used the seven years ago like Marley dying, but in this case,
01:25:41 --> 01:25:48 [SPEAKER_05]: It's when this awful incident with Mrs. Cratch had happened where basically she came behind her husband's back.
01:25:48 --> 01:25:56 [SPEAKER_05]: She came to Scrooge to ask him to help pay for her son's surgery so that yeah, so he could live, you know.
01:25:57 --> 01:26:01 [SPEAKER_05]: And he was basically, well, what would you do for this money?
01:26:02 --> 01:26:20 [SPEAKER_05]: And his, he implied he wanted her to prostitute herself for the money, but he, like I could tell from the beginning, he never really wanted her to go through with that obvious, or maybe I just assumed that based on the character, but he just wanted her to humiliate herself.
01:26:20 --> 01:26:38 [SPEAKER_05]: and just to prove that it was kind of, it was very much a power act, I think, to show and probably we are supposed to read something about the fact that this version of the character was sexually abused himself as a child, and I don't know, what do you think about this whole situation?
01:26:38 --> 01:26:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think the way he screwed put it is he wants to find the exchange rate on virtue.
01:26:47 --> 01:26:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, so yeah, like how far are you willing to go, uh-huh?
01:26:52 --> 01:26:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah.
01:26:53 --> 01:26:54 [SPEAKER_05]: But what is virtue?
01:26:54 --> 01:26:57 [SPEAKER_05]: Because he's acting fearless virtuously in that moment.
01:26:57 --> 01:27:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, um, yeah, I mean, it's it's it's it's it's it's this is the thing it's like I know what you're saying because it tone screwed from somebody who is generally mean and somebody who is very specifically evil it's like how do you like as soon as this starts happening like how do you redeem yourself from this yeah.
01:27:21 --> 01:27:23 [SPEAKER_05]: in the terms of this story.
01:27:23 --> 01:27:26 [SPEAKER_05]: And I guess it's okay where it ends up.
01:27:26 --> 01:27:27 [SPEAKER_05]: We'll talk about it.
01:27:27 --> 01:27:37 [SPEAKER_05]: But the one thing I do like about this is, and we'll pick up where this leads, but she says after that she's, you know, she's crying and it's awful.
01:27:37 --> 01:27:38 [SPEAKER_05]: And it's a tough watch that whole thing.
01:27:39 --> 01:27:51 [SPEAKER_05]: And then when she leaves, she gets the money when she says that she will summon spirits to bring
01:27:51 --> 01:27:52 [SPEAKER_01]: dead.
01:27:52 --> 01:28:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, do you think that is in the no pun intended, but do you think that is in the spirit of the original Scrooge character?
01:28:02 --> 01:28:03 [SPEAKER_05]: To go that far?
01:28:03 --> 01:28:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:28:05 --> 01:28:06 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
01:28:06 --> 01:28:11 [SPEAKER_05]: That's that's why I kind of like, I think it's interesting.
01:28:11 --> 01:28:18 [SPEAKER_05]: It's definitely a unique twist, but it's why also where I kind of
01:28:20 --> 01:28:31 [SPEAKER_05]: It's, you know, as you, I have pointed out and past discussions about this story that the idea of Scrooge is more that he's indifferent, not that he's evil.
01:28:32 --> 01:28:34 [SPEAKER_05]: And this tips him over a bit.
01:28:34 --> 01:28:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it does.
01:28:36 --> 01:28:36 [SPEAKER_01]: It really does.
01:28:36 --> 01:28:37 [SPEAKER_05]: Right, right.
01:28:38 --> 01:28:57 [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm also disturbed about also the fact that when she, she doesn't want to tell her husband about this, obviously, years later, even, and then at some point, she's almost tells him, then she lies to him with this very specific story about stealing jewelry from a woman who wouldn't know better.
01:28:57 --> 01:29:01 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, this is something you've clearly thought about before, too.
01:29:02 --> 01:29:03 [SPEAKER_05]: And maybe you should have done that to be honest.
01:29:04 --> 01:29:06 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:29:07 --> 01:29:14 [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, I have complex feelings about that whole situation and I miss both neither of these films have Fezzy wig.
01:29:14 --> 01:29:17 [SPEAKER_05]: There's there's like no room for joy in these two.
01:29:18 --> 01:29:19 [SPEAKER_05]: But especially not this one.
01:29:19 --> 01:29:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And the 2019 one like Belle and the role of Belle gets like really, really stripped down.
01:29:27 --> 01:29:28 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:29:28 --> 01:29:29 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:29:29 --> 01:29:35 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, yeah, Bell is just basically a photo montage in Fred is her child is used to little.
01:29:36 --> 01:29:38 [SPEAKER_05]: He's there is that fun exchange at the beginning.
01:29:38 --> 01:29:41 [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I'd like to the whole thing where he's like, and there will be big pudding too.
01:29:42 --> 01:29:46 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, no, Scrooge says to him, oh, and there will be big pudding too in January.
01:29:47 --> 01:29:49 [SPEAKER_05]: And Fred says, would you come in January?
01:29:49 --> 01:29:52 [SPEAKER_05]: He says, no.
01:29:52 --> 01:30:00 [SPEAKER_05]: But also Fred gets sassy too because he doesn't, we never see him later at the party or anything, and we never see him at the end at all.
01:30:01 --> 01:30:06 [SPEAKER_05]: He says that his, he says straight to Scrooge's face, his sisters in pain.
01:30:07 --> 01:30:14 [SPEAKER_05]: And then yeah, he says it's his final invite because his wife insisted he
01:30:14 --> 01:30:21 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, what do you think about the fact they don't show us any recollection between these two at the end?
01:30:21 --> 01:30:25 [SPEAKER_05]: Are we supposed to assume that's in a their relationship or that records?
01:30:25 --> 01:30:34 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I saw it took it that that's where the as he was sort of walking away at the end, I took it that's where he was going.
01:30:34 --> 01:30:35 [SPEAKER_05]: okay.
01:30:35 --> 01:30:36 [SPEAKER_01]: He was going to Fred.
01:30:37 --> 01:30:38 [SPEAKER_05]: They could have shown us that.
01:30:39 --> 01:30:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they could.
01:30:41 --> 01:30:43 [SPEAKER_05]: We had they did strip back a lot of secondary characters.
01:30:43 --> 01:30:47 [SPEAKER_05]: Like he mentioned scourge mentions that he dismissed a maid for idleness.
01:30:48 --> 01:30:54 [SPEAKER_05]: So I expected her to pop up later selling his bedsheets, you know, and or his bed curtains as often as we don't get that.
01:30:55 --> 01:30:56 [SPEAKER_05]: No, we don't get that.
01:30:56 --> 01:31:04 [SPEAKER_05]: We don't get like the wealthy colleagues who don't care about him when he dies or the debtors
01:31:04 --> 01:31:07 [SPEAKER_05]: we do definitely get more with his sister.
01:31:07 --> 01:31:18 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to save most of that for the next category where we talk about the spirits, but apparently Scrooge was she basically
01:31:18 --> 01:31:30 [SPEAKER_05]: rescued him from their father, like she fought back against her, their father, and scrooge never really acknowledged or understood that and would remain distant from her, which I find really sad.
01:31:31 --> 01:31:37 [SPEAKER_05]: But now he sees this is the one F bomb that made me laugh that the only one that I noticed.
01:31:37 --> 01:31:55 [SPEAKER_05]: Um, she sees after he leaves this school and the headmaster wants to follow and she pulls a gun on him and he's like, she pulled a fucking gun like a highway man.
01:31:55 --> 01:32:00 [SPEAKER_05]: compared to normally, she's called Fanny, by the way, but I guess they just didn't want to do that.
01:32:00 --> 01:32:05 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, that's in 2019, that's gonna hold a connotations that you just thought of.
01:32:05 --> 01:32:07 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, a lot is a nice name, fine.
01:32:08 --> 01:32:15 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, often they call her friend or something, because at least that's close, but I guess a lot is a nice name.
01:32:15 --> 01:32:25 [SPEAKER_05]: And then, yeah, in the 1964 version, we do have nephew Fred is the,
01:32:25 --> 01:32:30 [SPEAKER_05]: He definitely plays a bigger role in the 1964 than the 2019.
01:32:30 --> 01:32:34 [SPEAKER_05]: He's kind of the other main character if there is one, I guess.
01:32:34 --> 01:32:35 [SPEAKER_05]: What do you think?
01:32:36 --> 01:32:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I could say that, you know, Daniel grudges in there for the whole thing, and then it's just a series of two handers.
01:32:44 --> 01:32:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I really did not like this version of nephew Fred.
01:32:50 --> 01:32:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I think he's.
01:32:53 --> 01:33:15 [SPEAKER_01]: he just momentously inducing the earnest and this is the thing I think in his way he's just bad as grudges because like the way he's certainly right you set them up as two like polar opposites
01:33:15 --> 01:33:25 [SPEAKER_01]: they're not even arguing with each other because they're not, they're not, they're not, they've not got a common frame of reference around which too, I'll use it, they're just feature-flying, after each other.
01:33:26 --> 01:33:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, for all grudges, certain that he's right, Fred is also just a certain that he's right, and like, I just wanted to sit everybody in this
01:33:43 --> 01:33:51 [SPEAKER_01]: like the world, the world, the world is not going to automatically become a better place just because you set off a load of cultural exchanges.
01:33:51 --> 01:33:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying it's a bad thing.
01:33:53 --> 01:33:55 [SPEAKER_05]: No, but I, I think it's the thing too.
01:33:55 --> 01:34:00 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, we're going to get back to that point because I think they do actually acknowledge that in a way I really appreciate it.
01:34:00 --> 01:34:29 [SPEAKER_05]: But we'll come back to that, but just speaking about nephew Fred, they combined him with the charity seekers which to me makes sense, yeah, if you're going to condensed characters, yeah, that absolutely makes sense to combine the two, although I kept waiting for him for the dinner invite and there never was one, like, oh, okay, um, hey, and again, no Fuzzy wig, no sister
01:34:29 --> 01:34:32 [SPEAKER_05]: And then there's no crash at either.
01:34:32 --> 01:34:40 [SPEAKER_05]: I guess Cratchett is replaced by this man's servant called Charles, who is a black man, which will come back later.
01:34:40 --> 01:34:52 [SPEAKER_05]: He's barely in the beginning, but I noticed he kept walking by and like the camera would be like, hey, look, remember this face.
01:34:52 --> 01:35:01 [SPEAKER_05]: And then, yeah, also, the, you know, Bell character is stripped down, she, I suppose, or I don't even know if it counts.
01:35:01 --> 01:35:05 [SPEAKER_05]: Lieutenant Gibson, I assume, was the Bell character, but there's no romance.
01:35:05 --> 01:35:07 [SPEAKER_05]: But she's just a fellow officer in Japan.
01:35:07 --> 01:35:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, maybe, but not really.
01:35:10 --> 01:35:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I just thought that was a completely different character.
01:35:13 --> 01:35:41 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I should point out that that character is played by Britt Erklant, who was at the time married Peter Sellers, who we're going to talk about in a bit and then I don't know this part confused me, the fact that we have so we have grudges made Ruby and his Butler Charles and then they show up in the future vision, we'll talk about the whole future vision separately
01:35:41 --> 01:36:09 [SPEAKER_05]: show up and then and Charles um he is being encouraged to kill himself and Ruby the one black woman there is the only one crying for him is everyone's like jump jump and then one child stands up who I'm like is this tiny Tim then he opens a box that says just like daddy's uh another
01:36:09 --> 01:36:31 [SPEAKER_05]: shoots the man, and I'm like, did tiny Tim just fucking shoot Bob from wait a minute, tiny Tim and tiny Tim was just convinced Thomas right of his father figure so that was all what?
01:36:31 --> 01:36:33 [SPEAKER_05]: okay, so I think I know you're answered to this
01:36:34 --> 01:36:40 [SPEAKER_05]: which collection of allies would you say wins?
01:36:41 --> 01:36:44 [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be the effects one, it's going to be the effects one.
01:36:44 --> 01:36:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I just like the effects one, pretty much more across the board than...
01:36:49 --> 01:36:51 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, well, so okay.
01:36:51 --> 01:36:53 [SPEAKER_05]: So so far we are two to one.
01:36:53 --> 01:36:56 [SPEAKER_05]: And I agree so far.
01:36:57 --> 01:36:58 [SPEAKER_05]: We'll see if we come up at the tie.
01:37:00 --> 01:37:02 [SPEAKER_05]: All right, let's take a quick break here.
01:37:02 --> 01:37:08 [SPEAKER_05]: And when we come back, we're going to talk about the spirits and visions and conclusion of this all.
01:37:18 --> 01:37:35 [SPEAKER_05]: Alright, so category number four, spirits and visions we've got on the one hand from 2019, the shapeshifting and familiar quote unquote ghosts, none of them are very ghostly, but anyway, versus 1964, the quote unquote ghost, soldiers and company.
01:37:35 --> 01:37:44 [SPEAKER_05]: Um, so starting as usual with 2019, what did you think about the whole sequence here with the Ghosts and the visions?
01:37:45 --> 01:37:48 [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, we were saving the redemption for redemption for the last category.
01:37:48 --> 01:37:50 [SPEAKER_05]: Really like the Ghosts of Christmas past.
01:37:50 --> 01:37:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought that.
01:37:51 --> 01:37:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, even though it's not what was described in the book, I thought the idea of the Ghosts of Christmas past being Ali Baba.
01:37:58 --> 01:37:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Um,
01:37:58 --> 01:38:06 [SPEAKER_01]: worked really well sort of tapping into the one positive memory Scrooge had from this terrible boarding school.
01:38:07 --> 01:38:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, well, I like the fact that the ghost of Christmas present was his sister.
01:38:12 --> 01:38:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, again.
01:38:14 --> 01:38:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Not in any way.
01:38:15 --> 01:38:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like the book.
01:38:17 --> 01:38:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm also like the the the ghost because he's present because there's so much tension in the crush your household It's like this is not a good Christmas.
01:38:25 --> 01:38:40 [SPEAKER_01]: This is this is Christmas with a lot of drama going on in the background And so yeah, it's it felt a lot less hold that bit for a lot less homely than than it should
01:38:40 --> 01:38:44 [SPEAKER_01]: or that it would in a more traditional adaptation.
01:38:45 --> 01:38:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, the ghost Christmas year to come with his mouth sewn shut.
01:38:49 --> 01:38:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Really creeping.
01:38:51 --> 01:38:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Really really creeping.
01:38:53 --> 01:38:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Very doctor, very doctor who actually.
01:38:56 --> 01:38:57 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, okay, fair.
01:38:57 --> 01:38:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:38:58 --> 01:39:09 [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I liked the, the storytelling element where he, he wills time to go forward to 4 PM and it ends up accidentally winding the entire world forward.
01:39:09 --> 01:39:10 [SPEAKER_05]: I could have used more of that.
01:39:10 --> 01:39:13 [SPEAKER_05]: I would like when they play with the time element in this story.
01:39:13 --> 01:39:19 [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I did know by the way that he blames his feeling.
01:39:19 --> 01:39:27 [SPEAKER_05]: his visions on light-headedness rather than light-headedness from hunger rather than in the book where it's on just indigestion.
01:39:27 --> 01:39:34 [SPEAKER_05]: So it's emphasizing in this case that he is miserly taught himself as well.
01:39:34 --> 01:39:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, all the all that is made to drug them.
01:39:38 --> 01:39:39 [SPEAKER_05]: No disrespect to now.
01:39:39 --> 01:39:47 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, because he
01:39:47 --> 01:39:51 [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but yeah, and I thought it was interesting.
01:39:51 --> 01:40:08 [SPEAKER_05]: Also, this was interesting to watch as a movie, knowing it was a TV show because there are things like, like, at one point, he just randomly goes, um, instead of never leaving the room, he just rushes into a middle of a flashback, and there's no context for this flashback, and then it ends, and then I'm like, all right, that would have been the end of an episode.
01:40:08 --> 01:40:11 [SPEAKER_05]: That's why they'd sort of like the cliffhanger in a way.
01:40:11 --> 01:40:14 [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, you mentioned the ghost of Christmas past.
01:40:14 --> 01:40:18 [SPEAKER_05]: It took me far too long to realize that it was played by Andy Circus.
01:40:19 --> 01:40:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay.
01:40:20 --> 01:40:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, now because I was like, is this Ralph Weinstein or is Andy Circus?
01:40:25 --> 01:40:30 [SPEAKER_01]: It's one of the two of them, but yeah, it took me a while to narrow it down to Andy Circus.
01:40:31 --> 01:40:43 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, no, it really took a bit of Andy Circus to obviously famous for disappearing into his roles for anyone who doesn't know like that's Gallum and Keen Aloy and a bunch of other things Caesar from the plan of the apes.
01:40:44 --> 01:40:48 [SPEAKER_05]: And yeah, he is funny.
01:40:48 --> 01:40:55 [SPEAKER_05]: He kind of looked a bit like the ghost of Christmas yet to come when he was first introduced for wearing your crowns to sword thorns.
01:40:56 --> 01:40:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:40:56 --> 01:41:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Wait, look, he kind of looks like you're a bit of an amalgam, because he also looks a bit like Christmas present with the, with the rope as well.
01:41:04 --> 01:41:05 [SPEAKER_05]: So, too, too.
01:41:06 --> 01:41:30 [SPEAKER_05]: and it's funny they gave him his whole full episode but then he's only in half of it because like you said he does also appear as the alley bob before which is something from the book that that you know that screws used to read these alley bob books and that was his escape during these horrible years at school where other adaptations did not have him being molested but he did not have a good time there regardless.
01:41:30 --> 01:41:35 [SPEAKER_05]: And Ali Baba and this was also another one, maybe we do a double take.
01:41:36 --> 01:41:40 [SPEAKER_05]: He's played by Kevin Novak, who plays Nendor in what we do in the shadows.
01:41:42 --> 01:41:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I've never seen what we do in the shadows.
01:41:44 --> 01:41:46 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, well, you should remedy that.
01:41:48 --> 01:41:48 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
01:41:48 --> 01:41:57 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and then as you mentioned before, that Bell's role was quite cut down, we only see like, oh, look, remember you loved a woman?
01:41:57 --> 01:41:59 [SPEAKER_05]: You would have had children with her.
01:41:59 --> 01:42:03 [SPEAKER_05]: Like, I'm like, is this the ghost of Christmas that could have been?
01:42:03 --> 01:42:04 [SPEAKER_05]: And then that's it.
01:42:04 --> 01:42:06 [SPEAKER_05]: That's the only mention we get of her.
01:42:06 --> 01:42:15 [SPEAKER_05]: I thought I was like, okay, you have all this space, but it seemed like they really wanted to shy away from joy and lean into the darkness in this one.
01:42:15 --> 01:42:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:42:16 --> 01:42:16 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:42:17 --> 01:42:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I said, I do like that the ghost group of present was a sister and you often remarked that it was the cleverest person you knew.
01:42:25 --> 01:42:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I didn't always mean it was a car.
01:42:27 --> 01:42:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't always mean it was a compliment.
01:42:31 --> 01:42:39 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, no, I think that's that's a great way to use his sister more to have because she's passed away in a reveration of the story.
01:42:39 --> 01:42:48 [SPEAKER_05]: So it's great to have her in there and have that being influenced also to where he first sees like he that he was taking
01:42:48 --> 01:42:50 [SPEAKER_05]: for granted the things she did for him.
01:42:50 --> 01:43:00 [SPEAKER_05]: He's reminded of that and then he gets to see her and that's a good influence on him in terms of don't be a dick or you'll go to hell.
01:43:00 --> 01:43:09 [SPEAKER_05]: And then I love the what she says about the third spirit, the terrible one, the unknown one and the one who decides.
01:43:09 --> 01:43:17 [SPEAKER_05]: And then we see the lips just sewn shut because apparently you can't know the future so he can't speak like, okay, I'll go with it.
01:43:17 --> 01:43:19 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's why he's silent always.
01:43:21 --> 01:43:24 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and what did you think overall?
01:43:24 --> 01:43:26 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I guess you've said, and we're going to dive into this more.
01:43:26 --> 01:43:32 [SPEAKER_05]: But you're overall thoughts on the 1964 Ghosts and Visions.
01:43:32 --> 01:43:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I really like the ghost of Christmas yet to come.
01:43:37 --> 01:43:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Robert Shaw is giving it the full, like, I'm a Shakespearean actor.
01:43:41 --> 01:43:44 [SPEAKER_01]: You've hit the wrong beans.
01:43:44 --> 01:43:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I am acting.
01:43:45 --> 01:43:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I have got my big acting hat on.
01:43:48 --> 01:43:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I am really delivering these lines.
01:43:52 --> 01:43:54 [SPEAKER_01]: It's all very dramatic, darling.
01:43:55 --> 01:44:01 [SPEAKER_01]: But I have real issues with the ghost of Christmas past and the ghost of Christmas present.
01:44:01 --> 01:44:05 [SPEAKER_01]: So the ghost of Christmas past is really cool set up.
01:44:06 --> 01:44:08 [SPEAKER_01]: They're on a ship.
01:44:07 --> 01:44:16 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a troop ship that bring casualties back, or they're not bringing casualties back from the front, they're just endlessly milling around.
01:44:16 --> 01:44:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And the idea is, this is, you know, the frightful cost of war, and he goes off on the Scrapebeck.
01:44:23 --> 01:44:28 [SPEAKER_01]: exposition about how, you know, this has been going on since the Romans.
01:44:29 --> 01:44:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it's none of our be, it's none of your business, but what happens, you know, affects us all and we've got to be involved and we've got to care and we've got to talk, we've got to negotiate, we've got to see the other side of the table.
01:44:47 --> 01:44:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I get being opposed to isolationism and I get wanting to talk, but some of the wars you're talking about, like this is the Nazis you're talking about for a lot of it.
01:44:59 --> 01:45:03 [SPEAKER_05]: You really have that they're saying don't, but they're saying don't stay out of the words.
01:45:03 --> 01:45:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but they're also saying like you can always negotiate, you can always talk, can you really talk with, are you really going to negotiate your way over with the Nazis?
01:45:13 --> 01:45:20 [SPEAKER_05]: But even negotiating, I mean, it's better than annihilating each other with nuclear weapons.
01:45:21 --> 01:45:21 [SPEAKER_05]: Is it?
01:45:21 --> 01:45:23 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah.
01:45:23 --> 01:45:30 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm definitely sure that I would rather appeal to someone's reason than annihilate the face of the planet.
01:45:32 --> 01:45:33 [SPEAKER_05]: Comfortable, standing on that hill.
01:45:34 --> 01:45:36 [SPEAKER_01]: OK, well, this is the thing, this is the thing.
01:45:36 --> 01:45:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I think this is where we're different people, because I'm not.
01:45:42 --> 01:45:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Or at least, at least, at least I think it's more calm.
01:45:46 --> 01:45:47 [SPEAKER_01]: At least I think it's more calm.
01:45:47 --> 01:45:49 [SPEAKER_01]: What can I do than that?
01:45:49 --> 01:45:50 [SPEAKER_05]: Why I think this does, well, okay.
01:45:50 --> 01:45:53 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, let's get into what would they do say here.
01:45:53 --> 01:46:00 [SPEAKER_05]: So, okay, we talked about first of all, there's a first care with a phonograph and there's that World War II era popular song.
01:46:00 --> 01:46:05 [SPEAKER_05]: Don't sit under the apple tree with anyone else, but me, by the ender sisters, so that's a callback.
01:46:06 --> 01:46:09 [SPEAKER_05]: And then, yeah, I called the Ghost of Christmas past.
01:46:09 --> 01:46:12 [SPEAKER_05]: I called it the Ghost of Wars past.
01:46:12 --> 01:46:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, basically.
01:46:13 --> 01:46:22 [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, so we get this whole, like, he visiting here, she may post World War II, and we hear this lovely singing and they're like, oh, that's Satiko.
01:46:22 --> 01:46:26 [SPEAKER_05]: One of the group of schoolgirls who had their faces melted off by the way, for your mom.
01:46:27 --> 01:46:29 [SPEAKER_05]: Jesus, okay.
01:46:29 --> 01:46:35 [SPEAKER_05]: Of course, no, that actually happened, but yeah, because they all looked up as the bomb was falling.
01:46:36 --> 01:46:45 [SPEAKER_05]: So, yeah, and then we see, and this is where I think the new one starts to kick in, because I hear so often about the, and we're not going to get into the politics of it.
01:46:45 --> 01:46:47 [SPEAKER_05]: I will be arguing to discuss what the movie says.
01:46:47 --> 01:46:51 [SPEAKER_05]: And it says, you know, it repeats his argument.
01:46:51 --> 01:46:55 [SPEAKER_05]: I hear all the time about like, oh, but dropping the bomb actually ended the war.
01:46:55 --> 01:47:03 [SPEAKER_05]: And it saved all these lives and then on the other hand, it's like, but it also actually mostly just killed a bunch of people.
01:47:03 --> 01:47:13 [SPEAKER_05]: So we have like this, this cold calculation as the lieutenant character calls it versus this heartfelt humanism that she and others are putting forward.
01:47:13 --> 01:47:17 [SPEAKER_05]: and I am definitely more on the side of heartfelt humanism every day of the week.
01:47:19 --> 01:47:30 [SPEAKER_05]: And you know, and so the ghost says that the way to stop the killing is to spend more time talking because when stop talking stops fighting starts and that's a recurring theme throughout these visions.
01:47:30 --> 01:47:42 [SPEAKER_05]: So like when we're talking at least we're talking when we stop talking is when things
01:47:43 --> 01:47:54 [SPEAKER_01]: because I think that that is right, most of the time, but there are people you can't talk to, there are people, there are people you are not going to talk around.
01:47:54 --> 01:48:04 [SPEAKER_05]: I think they are far too quick in deciding that of people, and that is the root of our endless wars, because we say that way too quickly.
01:48:05 --> 01:48:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Do we, I mean, I mean, yes, like I said, you know, one of the flaws he's talking about is the second one more war is the war that you want to be negotiating with at least you really want to be negotiating with the Nazis, what would that look like?
01:48:21 --> 01:48:24 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I know it looks like right because it's happening right now.
01:48:24 --> 01:48:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, how many people you, what it is, it is
01:48:33 --> 01:48:59 [SPEAKER_05]: nobody's nobody seems to you know it's it's worth talking the bottom in a Putin is it really I mean it if it's going to stop that's the only way through but I don't I mean we're not going to get into the actual politics because obviously I'm very upset with with the way with the way the situation in Ukraine and Russia is being handled internationally or we're not going to get to the bottom of that that's going to be
01:48:59 --> 01:49:06 [SPEAKER_05]: and eight-hour podcast, but it has to begin with talking.
01:49:06 --> 01:49:07 [SPEAKER_05]: There's no other way out.
01:49:07 --> 01:49:11 [SPEAKER_05]: There's talking or there's bombing and I want the bombing to stop.
01:49:12 --> 01:49:16 [SPEAKER_05]: And there's no way to stop it unless you negotiate something.
01:49:17 --> 01:49:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes, we're not going to agree with this, but sometimes, sometimes.
01:49:22 --> 01:49:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not a pacifist, I don't, I'm not, I'm not pacifist, I do believe there are things worth fighting for, do believe there are things worth dying for and I do believe there are things worth killing for them.
01:49:34 --> 01:49:42 [SPEAKER_05]: I am a pacifist, but I do still believe there are things worth fighting and dying for, and I suppose at the end of the day is just about where we draw the line.
01:49:42 --> 01:49:54 [SPEAKER_05]: And we've had this conversation before, which silo, you know, where the conversation where you said, it comes down to our do, which do you value more order or justice?
01:49:54 --> 01:50:00 [SPEAKER_05]: And you said you would lean more towards order, and I'm over here like do you hear the people saying?
01:50:00 --> 01:50:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Literally I open the episode like that's like yeah, I just I just want to the ghost of pragmatic Christmas to come on You know, you're both wrong.
01:50:12 --> 01:50:19 [SPEAKER_01]: This is much more there are many more areas of gray But okay, but about the movie itself.
01:50:19 --> 01:50:24 [SPEAKER_05]: It is interesting how for instance like the ghost of Chris
01:50:24 --> 01:50:36 [SPEAKER_05]: now basically Christmas present plays on the ghost of Christmas present tropes in the book for so we see him in this case at a table that's has like covered with a feast.
01:50:36 --> 01:50:38 [SPEAKER_05]: I noticed a lot of pig products in general.
01:50:38 --> 01:50:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I think I'm going to make a good deal of support.
01:50:43 --> 01:50:49 [SPEAKER_05]: It's like here's pork prepared prepared 20 ways like okay geez very anti-Muslim of you.
01:50:51 --> 01:50:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm I'm like I'm longer as well.
01:50:54 --> 01:51:05 [SPEAKER_05]: But he says, you know, he doesn't have the children hovering under his robes, but he says, like, part of me is knowing hunger, part of me is satiated.
01:51:05 --> 01:51:07 [SPEAKER_05]: I represent the human race.
01:51:07 --> 01:51:11 [SPEAKER_05]: And he's saying, you know, he's represents both the halves and the half nuts.
01:51:11 --> 01:51:20 [SPEAKER_05]: And he confronts Scrooge for saying, like, oh, you want to, you don't want to see the poor while you're enjoying your pente.
01:51:20 --> 01:51:32 [SPEAKER_05]: But sort of shaming him for like you just want to enjoy your plenty in peace without having to remember that you're taking it out of the mouths of other people.
01:51:33 --> 01:51:43 [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's so he says he represents human want and need and I suppose that means that grudge represents ignorance, which is the other child under the robe usually.
01:51:43 --> 01:51:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I suppose the problem I had the problem with this one is in the in the in the novella and in most adaptations of a Christian's carol.
01:51:51 --> 01:51:59 [SPEAKER_01]: The the evils that the ghost
01:52:00 --> 01:52:05 [SPEAKER_01]: So paycratch it decently, be decently in FU.
01:52:06 --> 01:52:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Treat your work as better, give charity.
01:52:08 --> 01:52:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, okay, Daniel Grudges reason is a wealthy guy, but to like,
01:52:15 --> 01:52:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And to indict him for all the ills of humanity seems a little bit harsh.
01:52:25 --> 01:52:25 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:52:25 --> 01:52:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't tell you what it is.
01:52:27 --> 01:52:34 [SPEAKER_01]: It's one of those conversations you occasionally get into on social media.
01:52:33 --> 01:52:38 [SPEAKER_01]: where you're like, oh, oh, yeah, really nice sandwich that I bought from plenty of fish today.
01:52:38 --> 01:52:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And somebody will go, ah, you bought a sandwich from sandwiches?
01:52:42 --> 01:52:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you not know to get my crest from Israel?
01:52:45 --> 01:52:47 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, I'm sorry.
01:52:49 --> 01:52:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, you know, the show that did this best was the good place.
01:52:52 --> 01:52:55 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, it seems possible.
01:52:55 --> 01:53:03 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't hold me responsible for all the consequences of my actions, because I don't even know all the consequences of my actions.
01:53:03 --> 01:53:25 [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I mean, I do think that that is why this what it's less of a direct adaptation and one of the key things that makes it less of a direct adaptation is that a Christmas Carol is typically a story of personal redemption and this is where Grudge is meant to stand in for
01:53:25 --> 01:53:30 [SPEAKER_05]: maybe an entire nation or at least an entire political party and an in a nation.
01:53:30 --> 01:53:38 [SPEAKER_05]: So it just by loosening the analogy, it makes it a little less potent in that regard.
01:53:39 --> 01:53:46 [SPEAKER_05]: But for me, at the same time, I find it the more interesting adaptation just because of all these aspects that we've been talking about.
01:53:46 --> 01:53:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
01:53:48 --> 01:53:53 [SPEAKER_05]: And then we get to the most on the nose in case you missed it.
01:53:53 --> 01:54:16 [SPEAKER_05]: We have Christmas yet to come which is a guy in a hood of cape and beard in a destroyed town hall of the future because basically the UN fellow parts so everything got bombed and there's no more talk because society's decimated there's no more keeping track of time even I was
01:54:16 --> 01:54:22 [SPEAKER_05]: And then, yeah, so this is where it really directly calls back to the Cuban missile crisis.
01:54:22 --> 01:54:28 [SPEAKER_05]: It says, somebody thought somebody had dropped some bombs, so everybody launched the wrong space, basically.
01:54:29 --> 01:54:36 [SPEAKER_05]: And yeah, the new and no longer exist because everyone dropped out and before everyone knew it, the talking had stopped.
01:54:36 --> 01:54:49 [SPEAKER_05]: and then we see the group of people comes gathering in the ruins and we hear these are the fittest who happen to survive the leftovers of the crap game after they rolled the H bomb and nobody made their point.
01:54:49 --> 01:54:52 [SPEAKER_05]: So I love how they're showing the fertility of it, but
01:54:52 --> 01:54:57 [SPEAKER_05]: And so they introduce themselves, this is where Peter Sellers comes in.
01:54:57 --> 01:55:08 [SPEAKER_05]: He introduces himself as imperial me and addresses the rest of the people as the government, then sorry, the non-government of the me people, and these are isolationists.
01:55:08 --> 01:55:27 [SPEAKER_05]: who have not learned from the fall of the UN and are rejecting other groups who want to recreate some sort of diplomacy because they say the bleeding hearts want to take over and this group wants individualism above collectivism and I will say I will admit it gets a bit on the nose yet it does.
01:55:27 --> 01:55:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Just a little bit but also like PSL is just like
01:55:33 --> 01:55:37 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just a fantasticly over the top.
01:55:37 --> 01:55:41 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you want to explain who Peter Salazar is, anyone who doesn't know?
01:55:41 --> 01:55:48 [SPEAKER_01]: So Peter Salazar's famous accent, mostly a comedy character.
01:55:49 --> 01:56:08 [SPEAKER_01]: the inspector clues are um Dr. Strangelove the inspector clues so movies which at their best are like some of the best likes that comedy you will ever see at their worst their unwatchable builds but is ever to your calling it's at the Pink Panther movies?
01:56:08 --> 01:56:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah sorry the Pink Panther movie
01:56:12 --> 01:56:18 [SPEAKER_01]: They're ping-pand movies, the first two ping-pand movies are among my very favorite movies.
01:56:18 --> 01:56:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I just think they're historically for me.
01:56:21 --> 01:56:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Just ping-pand, they're in Sean the Dark, but yeah, really good.
01:56:28 --> 01:56:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Doctor Strange Love, and also the Goonies, the Radio Show, the Goonies,
01:56:40 --> 01:56:41 [SPEAKER_01]: It was radio show to begin with.
01:56:42 --> 01:56:42 [SPEAKER_05]: The Goonies?
01:56:42 --> 01:56:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:56:43 --> 01:56:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Like this Steven Spielberg movie?
01:56:45 --> 01:56:46 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no.
01:56:46 --> 01:56:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, the Goonies was pretty assala.
01:56:49 --> 01:56:50 [SPEAKER_01]: The originally it was.
01:56:50 --> 01:56:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Pretty assala's Harry Seekum.
01:56:53 --> 01:56:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Who were the other two?
01:56:55 --> 01:56:56 [SPEAKER_01]: But what is it, in general?
01:56:57 --> 01:57:00 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a radio show about what?
01:57:00 --> 01:57:03 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's Kareo's sketch comedy.
01:57:03 --> 01:57:04 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, sketch comedy.
01:57:04 --> 01:57:05 [SPEAKER_05]: OK, I didn't know about that one.
01:57:06 --> 01:57:12 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, Americans will know him best, obviously, from Pink Panther, James Bond, and obviously.
01:57:12 --> 01:57:13 [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, the terrible version.
01:57:13 --> 01:57:15 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, he's not the most beloved James Bond.
01:57:15 --> 01:57:19 [SPEAKER_05]: But he's he is beloved as a pink Panther and he was also the lead.
01:57:19 --> 01:57:22 [SPEAKER_05]: I think he plays like three different roles in Dr.
01:57:22 --> 01:57:22 [SPEAKER_05]: Strange.
01:57:22 --> 01:57:22 [SPEAKER_01]: He does.
01:57:22 --> 01:57:24 [SPEAKER_01]: He plays strange love.
01:57:24 --> 01:57:29 [SPEAKER_01]: He plays the president and he plays the RAF officer who's nice.
01:57:29 --> 01:57:29 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
01:57:29 --> 01:57:29 [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you.
01:57:29 --> 01:57:31 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:57:31 --> 01:57:37 [SPEAKER_05]: And he also served in he served in the Air Force during World War II in India mostly.
01:57:37 --> 01:57:39 [SPEAKER_05]: And then he was post war in Germany in Europe.
01:57:39 --> 01:57:41 [SPEAKER_05]: So he's another one with the military history in this.
01:57:42 --> 01:57:42 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
01:57:43 --> 01:57:45 [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, so he was a big name here.
01:57:45 --> 01:57:51 [SPEAKER_05]: I was surprised actually that he had a relatively small role, but I guess he's too old to be Fred.
01:57:52 --> 01:58:16 [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, he says he's the imperial me and he says that the end goal basically is to get rid of all other groups until the world belongs to one individual ultimate absolute me and it seems clear obviously that he thinks that's going to be him but yet the other people will cheer him on and they band together like let's take out the others and then we can turn on each other hooray
01:58:16 --> 01:58:27 [SPEAKER_05]: And it does feel on the nose, but I also see people all the time, like, oh, yeah, we're part of the in group that's going to take you for one out, but like, he just told you that you're next.
01:58:27 --> 01:58:28 [SPEAKER_05]: He just told you you're next.
01:58:30 --> 01:58:33 [SPEAKER_05]: So I see it happen in real life, and I appreciate it being represented here.
01:58:35 --> 01:58:41 [SPEAKER_05]: But okay, when it comes down to which of these two wins, I know what your vote is going to be obviously.
01:58:41 --> 01:58:43 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's probably the FX one again.
01:58:44 --> 01:58:52 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, and I can't, I think, again in some ways, it's so difficult because I am more intrigued.
01:58:52 --> 01:59:14 [SPEAKER_05]: My brain is more activated by the conversations and visions from the 1964 one, but obviously 2019 is the better adaptation and it comes down to personal versus psychological, but I'll go along with you and your favorite is going to win this one, even though I do actually kind of prefer
01:59:14 --> 01:59:16 [SPEAKER_05]: I love you for the other one.
01:59:16 --> 01:59:21 [SPEAKER_05]: No, yeah, but I mean, I prefer the other movie in general, but just the way I've chosen these categories.
01:59:21 --> 01:59:29 [SPEAKER_05]: It's just, it's gonna end up being, uh, it's gonna end up being 2019 because here's the last category, the repentance.
01:59:29 --> 01:59:34 [SPEAKER_05]: So, we have on the one hand, the 2019 repentance is saved.
01:59:34 --> 01:59:41 [SPEAKER_05]: Timmy, not me versus in 1964, maybe the UN is not such a bad idea after all.
01:59:43 --> 01:59:52 [SPEAKER_05]: So, I was thinking with the, with the 2019 one, they actually kind of show Tiny Tim's death ish.
01:59:54 --> 01:59:55 [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't know.
01:59:55 --> 01:59:57 [SPEAKER_01]: He falls through the ice.
01:59:58 --> 01:59:59 [SPEAKER_05]: Hmm.
01:59:59 --> 02:00:08 [SPEAKER_05]: And I was thinking about the fact, you know, we've been watching these silent films, where often the visions are projected within the screen just because of their limitations at the time.
02:00:09 --> 02:00:12 [SPEAKER_05]: But I was just thinking like this was this falling through the ice thing.
02:00:12 --> 02:00:16 [SPEAKER_05]: It's something that happens in the air above Scrooge's desk.
02:00:16 --> 02:00:21 [SPEAKER_05]: but in a 3D way that's really, really visually well done.
02:00:21 --> 02:00:26 [SPEAKER_05]: And I was thinking if they could have seen this a hundred years ago, it would have blown their mind.
02:00:26 --> 02:00:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's really blown their mind.
02:00:30 --> 02:00:43 [SPEAKER_05]: But at the end of the day, it is the fact above all else, it is the fact that Scrooge once Tim saved and said of himself, that's when ends up redeeming him, do you agree?
02:00:43 --> 02:00:44 [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
02:00:44 --> 02:00:46 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you think that that's on brand for the book?
02:00:47 --> 02:00:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I think he's on brand for the book.
02:00:49 --> 02:00:59 [SPEAKER_01]: I like the fact that the Scrooge Scrooge recognizes himself that he is a redeemable
02:00:59 --> 02:01:00 [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.
02:01:00 --> 02:01:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it really doesn't matter what happens to him.
02:01:04 --> 02:01:04 [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.
02:01:04 --> 02:01:10 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and it's also interesting that every adaptation avoids has him avoiding looking at his dead body.
02:01:10 --> 02:01:15 [SPEAKER_05]: He does someone to acknowledge that he's the one dead at the in the future visions.
02:01:16 --> 02:01:19 [SPEAKER_05]: But here he really, he just confronts that's right on.
02:01:20 --> 02:01:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I do actually like the fact they could help the bit with the charlady and Mrs. Delber and the
02:01:28 --> 02:01:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, just not that it's nothing wrong with it.
02:01:31 --> 02:01:33 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just I like the fact it was a little bit.
02:01:34 --> 02:01:36 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a little bit different and got more directly to the point.
02:01:37 --> 02:01:38 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, yeah.
02:01:39 --> 02:01:45 [SPEAKER_05]: I wasn't used by the fact that it's a scrooge, he, you know, he has the vision obviously of tiny Tim falling through the ice.
02:01:45 --> 02:01:51 [SPEAKER_05]: So he runs out onto the ice and starts salting it to prevent his skating accident.
02:01:51 --> 02:01:53 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm like, this does actually look very scroogey.
02:01:54 --> 02:01:59 [SPEAKER_01]: It looks, because he's like, no, no, no, he's skating today.
02:02:00 --> 02:02:02 [SPEAKER_01]: No, he's skating for you.
02:02:02 --> 02:02:09 [SPEAKER_05]: It says, see, very scourge, if anyone sees that, they're like, totally in character, come on, dude.
02:02:09 --> 02:02:14 [SPEAKER_05]: But then he does go, and this is interesting, he tells the cratchets about the spirits.
02:02:14 --> 02:02:19 [SPEAKER_05]: I think this is the only adaptation I've seen where he actually tells people about the spirits he saw.
02:02:19 --> 02:02:31 [SPEAKER_05]: And he, and that whole sequence actually kind of gave me a dark chuckle, like he goes into the cratchets and he's like, a father's mother's in children, and he points to who I assume is Martha the oldest daughter.
02:02:31 --> 02:02:33 [SPEAKER_05]: He's like, and whoever you are.
02:02:36 --> 02:02:41 [SPEAKER_05]: And tiny Tim says, is this what happens when someone drinks lawdnum?
02:02:43 --> 02:02:52 [SPEAKER_05]: No, London was a concoction of alcohol and opium that people did drink too much at the time.
02:02:52 --> 02:02:56 [SPEAKER_05]: See my episodes about Frankenstein, but more than that.
02:02:56 --> 02:03:08 [SPEAKER_05]: And then in this version, Mary gets the final line of the whole thing, which kind of feels appropriate after what this adaptation put her through and she says, Spirit's past, present, and future, there is still much to do.
02:03:09 --> 02:03:10 [SPEAKER_05]: What do you think that means?
02:03:10 --> 02:03:15 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know the probably sequel that's in point out of that.
02:03:15 --> 02:03:16 [SPEAKER_05]: That was what I wondered too.
02:03:18 --> 02:03:23 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean I guess yeah there's more people to redeem but I wonder if they did think maybe well there was sequel.
02:03:23 --> 02:03:25 [SPEAKER_05]: Christmas Carol to the recarling.
02:03:29 --> 02:03:35 [SPEAKER_05]: Well if for any of the adaptations we've talked about so far which would you most like to see a sequel to?
02:03:37 --> 02:03:42 [SPEAKER_01]: This design clue, design clue last year as well.
02:03:43 --> 02:03:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I kind of like to see the sequel to the Patrick Stewart one.
02:03:48 --> 02:03:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to like to see Patrick Stewart as a jolly old screw.
02:03:52 --> 02:03:54 [SPEAKER_01]: You never get the adaptation.
02:03:54 --> 02:03:56 [SPEAKER_01]: You never get the next chapter of a screw.
02:03:56 --> 02:04:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Just like a, a screw just, you know, keep it Christmas as well as anyone could.
02:04:01 --> 02:04:02 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's true.
02:04:03 --> 02:04:08 [SPEAKER_05]: Where you have like the spirited one with with Will Ferrell and Yeah, about the right one.
02:04:08 --> 02:04:12 [SPEAKER_05]: I would will because well where he's just dies immediately after his redemption.
02:04:12 --> 02:04:16 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, but yeah, I would totally watch him as equal to that one.
02:04:16 --> 02:04:37 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, and so switching gears to the redemption for the 1964 one, we get grudge, just wakes up on the floor basically of his office, and apparently he phoned Fred while he was in a trance at 3 a.m. Fred's like, you phoned me at 3 a.m. he's like, that tracks probably, yeah.
02:04:37 --> 02:04:41 [SPEAKER_05]: it was a heavy night right.
02:04:41 --> 02:04:42 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, they did set up the drinking.
02:04:44 --> 02:04:47 [SPEAKER_05]: And yeah, Fred, of course, mentions he's on his way to church.
02:04:48 --> 02:04:49 [SPEAKER_05]: Let's not forget.
02:04:49 --> 02:04:55 [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, and we do have a caroling moment.
02:04:55 --> 02:04:56 [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, we have.
02:04:56 --> 02:04:59 [SPEAKER_05]: We have the UN brings it back around to the UN.
02:05:00 --> 02:05:11 [SPEAKER_05]: We hear on the radio the delegates children from New York City are caroling each singing Christmas carols and their native languages and I think this is interesting.
02:05:11 --> 02:05:15 [SPEAKER_05]: First of all, I will say they are singing god resty Mary gentlemen.
02:05:15 --> 02:05:40 [SPEAKER_05]: So there's that but then yeah then he says of course that won't stop their fathers from beating each other's brain out tomorrow with words and this is why I called this hope punk and why I think there is more nuance is that it's not saying talking solves everything it's saying
02:05:40 --> 02:05:53 [SPEAKER_05]: Things are bad and people are going to fight, but if we can take these moments to recognize that we are all one people that will make the talking go just a little bit better.
02:05:53 --> 02:06:01 [SPEAKER_05]: We're just doing every little small act of rebellion against the darkness pushing us toward war.
02:06:02 --> 02:06:04 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm sorry.
02:06:05 --> 02:06:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not buying.
02:06:07 --> 02:06:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Fine.
02:06:07 --> 02:06:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not putting you in charge of my world order.
02:06:12 --> 02:06:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Probably probably a good call.
02:06:16 --> 02:06:19 [SPEAKER_05]: But it is very, it's very pro children, obviously.
02:06:20 --> 02:06:22 [SPEAKER_05]: Like it's very, it reminded me of, did you watch one division?
02:06:23 --> 02:06:23 [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
02:06:24 --> 02:06:28 [SPEAKER_05]: And there's the episodes in the middle where they're like, it's for the children, for the children, for the children.
02:06:29 --> 02:06:31 [SPEAKER_05]: Do you know, like during the magic show episode and stuff?
02:06:31 --> 02:06:32 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
02:06:32 --> 02:06:33 [SPEAKER_05]: You reminded me of that.
02:06:34 --> 02:06:38 [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but yeah, his grudges redemption is he accepts the need for the UN.
02:06:39 --> 02:06:41 [SPEAKER_05]: He wishes his nephew a Merry Christmas.
02:06:42 --> 02:06:45 [SPEAKER_05]: And then he eats breakfast in the kitchen with the staff.
02:06:45 --> 02:06:51 [SPEAKER_05]: But it's not like he invites he's not like he's like Georgian Ruby sit down and have some coffee with me.
02:06:51 --> 02:06:55 [SPEAKER_05]: He's like, no, but I am in the same room with you.
02:06:55 --> 02:06:57 [SPEAKER_05]: And so, look at me.
02:06:57 --> 02:07:00 [SPEAKER_01]: You can very much tell what this is.
02:07:01 --> 02:07:12 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the, you know, the first civil right, the voletion rights act is just passed, but the civil rights act from 1965 is coming down the pocket.
02:07:12 --> 02:07:16 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it's interesting to put this one here, because it came out in 1964.
02:07:16 --> 02:07:17 [SPEAKER_05]: It's overlap.
02:07:17 --> 02:07:20 [SPEAKER_05]: Have you, you haven't been watching it, welcome to Dary at all?
02:07:20 --> 02:07:22 [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's not really my thing.
02:07:23 --> 02:07:23 [SPEAKER_05]: No, yeah, fair.
02:07:23 --> 02:07:26 [SPEAKER_05]: It's definitely hard, like, hard, full on hard.
02:07:27 --> 02:07:37 [SPEAKER_05]: But it is set in 1962, and the Cold War is a major backdrop, and it is very much about, there's a character in it who's a civil rights activist.
02:07:38 --> 02:07:40 [SPEAKER_05]: And, yeah, it's very much about all these things.
02:07:40 --> 02:07:48 [SPEAKER_05]: So this is an interesting conversation with that since we're covering that at the same time as we're recording this, but we will be done by the time this episode releases.
02:07:50 --> 02:07:58 [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, that is the end and I think I know which redemption arc you are voting for.
02:07:58 --> 02:08:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's got to be the 2009.
02:08:00 --> 02:08:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I genuinely really did like the 2019 one.
02:08:04 --> 02:08:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that made welcome into rotation on like, like, you know, because it's close enough to a traditional adaptation that's got a lot of the same things.
02:08:18 --> 02:08:25 [SPEAKER_01]: But I like the fact that it is the take the source material and use it in interesting ways.
02:08:26 --> 02:08:31 [SPEAKER_05]: Hmm, for this one, I am going to vote for the 1964.
02:08:31 --> 02:08:46 [SPEAKER_05]: I just, the 2019 one, I don't know, all the stuff with Mrs. Cratchett, I feel like just kind of fumbled the ending for me and the fact that Fred doesn't come back around and it's just, it just reminds, it just leaves me to see it sad place.
02:08:46 --> 02:08:49 [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm gonna say, I'm not gonna put that one into rotation.
02:08:49 --> 02:08:55 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know that I'll put the 1964 one into rotation either, but I think, am I think about it more?
02:08:55 --> 02:09:11 [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, so this one is a tie for the last one, but this means that it is still let's say one, two, three, four, and a half versus one.
02:09:11 --> 02:09:14 [SPEAKER_05]: So versus one and a half.
02:09:14 --> 02:09:21 [SPEAKER_05]: So 2019 is the big winner of this Lordown.
02:09:24 --> 02:09:50 [SPEAKER_05]: uh we have one more episode coming for this year's Christmas Carol Benenza um this is always the most fun one of every year do you want to shout out the the episodes where oh sorry the films were covering in our final episode of this year uh so we are looking at the cheesy twists uh so we're looking at Mr. McDoo's Christmas from 1962
02:09:50 --> 02:10:12 [SPEAKER_01]: and american christmas carol within and rewinklet a that's another american uh... well yeah we're having an american theme this year but uh... that one said during the great depression and these are which is a western version of christmas carol which okay and of course because of the way that we're talking about
02:10:13 --> 02:10:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Chris was above the clouds, which is my pick, because we had to have a hallmark movie in there somewhere.
02:10:20 --> 02:10:34 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a brand new hallmark movie, this is a 2020-25 hallmark movie, and the premise of it seems to be what if a Christmas carol took place on a plane?
02:10:34 --> 02:10:35 [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
02:10:35 --> 02:10:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Chris, but spirits on a plane.
02:10:37 --> 02:10:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Spirit on the plane.
02:10:38 --> 02:10:40 [SPEAKER_01]: We got to get the melon's plumbing fruit.
02:10:41 --> 02:10:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
02:10:41 --> 02:10:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And the last one is Christmas karma, which is a fully wood-esque version of a Christmas carol.
02:10:50 --> 02:10:55 [SPEAKER_05]: So again, we shot at this out last time, but in case you didn't hear Paul, sorry, no black out of this year.
02:10:55 --> 02:10:57 [SPEAKER_05]: We are saving that for next year.
02:10:57 --> 02:10:59 [SPEAKER_01]: We are already planning next year.
02:10:59 --> 02:11:01 [SPEAKER_01]: We are already planning next year.
02:11:01 --> 02:11:10 [SPEAKER_05]: So if we have not yet covered any of your favorite Christmas carols, please email us at woolshiftuspodcast at gmail.com.
02:11:10 --> 02:11:11 [SPEAKER_05]: You'll find that link in the show notes.
02:11:12 --> 02:11:15 [SPEAKER_05]: Let us know and we complain it in for our future coverage.
02:11:16 --> 02:11:18 [SPEAKER_05]: Do also jump into the discord.
02:11:18 --> 02:11:20 [SPEAKER_05]: We have a wool shift dust channel there.
02:11:20 --> 02:11:23 [SPEAKER_05]: We'll where we'll be discussing all of this.
02:11:23 --> 02:11:45 [SPEAKER_05]: So you'll find that link in the show notes as well and also links to the supercast and patreon feeds Which is the same content, but you get ad free access Oh, they have the same content is each other, but supercast offers more options at a better price price You get ad free access and you get some extra episodes like our deep dive into the chines
02:11:45 --> 02:11:51 [SPEAKER_05]: Um, and as far as what else is going on, uh, can you can catch up on the Frankenstein coverage that just came out?
02:11:51 --> 02:11:54 [SPEAKER_05]: And I promise more doon in the new year.
02:11:54 --> 02:11:56 [SPEAKER_01]: We will, we will, honestly, we will get to it.
02:11:56 --> 02:11:57 [SPEAKER_01]: We will, honestly, I've been working on editing the next episode for you.
02:11:57 --> 02:12:07 [SPEAKER_01]: We will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we will, we
02:12:07 --> 02:12:09 [SPEAKER_05]: Keep getting distracted by other projects.
02:12:09 --> 02:12:15 [SPEAKER_05]: No, yeah, it's just, it's just, yeah, you keep having to prioritize making rent.
02:12:15 --> 02:12:22 [SPEAKER_05]: So get more listeners and then we can have people sign up to the Patriots.
02:12:22 --> 02:12:28 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, but yeah, so that's what's going on with love your support.
02:12:28 --> 02:12:30 [SPEAKER_05]: Luke, what's going on with it could be said.
02:12:30 --> 02:12:32 [SPEAKER_05]: You said you'd just recorded an episode.
02:12:32 --> 02:12:50 [SPEAKER_01]: actually we did actually we were going to we were going to but life intervened life intervened on us so yeah the it could be said I think we are recording actually I don't think I'm recording on something because I've ever been more marking but I think Simon and Will are doing an episode
02:12:51 --> 02:12:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure what.
02:12:53 --> 02:13:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, by the way, um, you've heard she mentioned her before in the podcast, but Abigail Thorn of, um, house of the dragon fame and I like fame and also philosophy to you fame.
02:13:08 --> 02:13:10 [SPEAKER_01]: She is actress here.
02:13:10 --> 02:13:14 [SPEAKER_01]: She is doing a full-scale reading of Christmas Carol.
02:13:14 --> 02:13:18 [SPEAKER_01]: on her YouTube channel, on the 20th of December.
02:13:18 --> 02:13:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, it comes out after that.
02:13:20 --> 02:13:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure it will still be up there.
02:13:22 --> 02:13:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And she's asking for donations for that and all the proceeds for that.
02:13:29 --> 02:13:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go to World Central Kitchen.
02:13:32 --> 02:13:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, which is a great charity feeding, well feeding people in emergency situations around the world.
02:13:44 --> 02:13:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but she's done the full three-hour three-and-a-half hour Dickens-esque reading of the Christmas Carol.
02:13:52 --> 02:13:52 [SPEAKER_05]: All right, awesome.
02:13:53 --> 02:13:56 [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you can really find a link to that to put it in the show.
02:13:56 --> 02:14:10 [SPEAKER_05]: It's also of course a link to it could be said and links to the Lurhoun's website where you'll find all the other podcasts in the feed, especially if you're going to shout out to the main Lurhoun's feed, which has been very, very busy.
02:14:10 --> 02:14:20 [SPEAKER_05]: I've been doing weekly coverage with John and Mark of It's Welcome to Dairy, which is going in my top 10 episodes of the year.
02:14:20 --> 02:14:24 [SPEAKER_05]: David and Nicole have been doing blurbist coverage.
02:14:24 --> 02:14:25 [SPEAKER_05]: You've been watching Purvis, right?
02:14:25 --> 02:14:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a little bit behind, but yes, I've been watching.
02:14:28 --> 02:14:29 [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, okay.
02:14:29 --> 02:14:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, then let's get it.
02:14:33 --> 02:14:43 [SPEAKER_05]: And David and Brian, who is an American historian, did the American Revolution series.
02:14:43 --> 02:14:45 [SPEAKER_05]: It was recently released by Ken Burns.
02:14:45 --> 02:14:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yep, that's from my list of Christian things to watch over Christmas.
02:14:49 --> 02:14:52 [SPEAKER_05]: there you go and they have to listen to their coverage too.
02:14:52 --> 02:14:55 [SPEAKER_05]: And there's a chat for that also in the discord of course.
02:14:56 --> 02:15:07 [SPEAKER_05]: John and I just released it before this episode will have released a telemaska season one one shot this is part of the Anne Rice Immortal universe where huge fans of interview with the vampire.
02:15:07 --> 02:15:10 [SPEAKER_05]: Are we huge fans of the telemaska?
02:15:11 --> 02:15:17 [SPEAKER_05]: We're huge fans of interview with The Vampire and we watched The Galaxy out there.
02:15:18 --> 02:15:19 [SPEAKER_05]: It's okay.
02:15:19 --> 02:15:19 [SPEAKER_05]: It's okay.
02:15:20 --> 02:15:21 [SPEAKER_05]: It's just nothing else.
02:15:21 --> 02:15:23 [SPEAKER_05]: It's just an interview with The Vampire.
02:15:24 --> 02:15:26 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you know what that reminds me of.
02:15:26 --> 02:15:36 [SPEAKER_01]: That reminds me of me listening to you, John and John, trying to pretend that you like secret and Bayou, and for like six hours.
02:15:36 --> 02:15:37 [SPEAKER_05]: No, I didn't.
02:15:37 --> 02:15:40 [SPEAKER_05]: We didn't pretend that we liked, by the end, we gave up on it.
02:15:40 --> 02:15:43 [SPEAKER_05]: But at the beginning, I'm always going hopeful.
02:15:43 --> 02:15:45 [SPEAKER_05]: I always go in hopeful.
02:15:45 --> 02:15:49 [SPEAKER_05]: Tell a mask a 100 times better than secret invasion.
02:15:49 --> 02:15:52 [SPEAKER_05]: That's not going to play about that.
02:15:52 --> 02:15:57 [SPEAKER_05]: And then there's also some movie episodes that just came out there.
02:15:57 --> 02:16:02 [SPEAKER_05]: Predator, Badlands, Wicked, Frankenstein, and watch out for around the time of this episode.
02:16:03 --> 02:16:04 [SPEAKER_05]: They'll be the Christmas coverage.
02:16:04 --> 02:16:05 [SPEAKER_05]: It's going to be an action Christmas.
02:16:06 --> 02:16:08 [SPEAKER_05]: Violent night is going to be in the main feed.
02:16:08 --> 02:16:14 [SPEAKER_05]: And then Laura Hound subscribers will get a double dose of diehard.
02:16:14 --> 02:16:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, he's a Christmas movie.
02:16:16 --> 02:16:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I will not.
02:16:17 --> 02:16:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course.
02:16:18 --> 02:16:19 [SPEAKER_05]: I'll miss him.
02:16:19 --> 02:16:20 [SPEAKER_05]: Of course it is.
02:16:20 --> 02:16:24 [SPEAKER_05]: And there's going to be a Top 10 TV.
02:16:24 --> 02:16:26 [SPEAKER_05]: There's a survey going on now.
02:16:26 --> 02:16:36 [SPEAKER_05]: We're all subscribers are filling in their top 10 TVs and then Yeah, we're going to get together and give our top 10 seasons of television from 2025 and see where it all ranks
02:16:36 --> 02:16:39 [SPEAKER_05]: Any final thoughts from you, Luke, before we go.
02:16:39 --> 02:16:43 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm just really looking forward to our cheesy twists.
02:16:43 --> 02:16:46 [SPEAKER_01]: We've got to get the melon farming spirits off the melon farming plane.
02:16:48 --> 02:16:53 [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, so thank you to those of you who stuck with us here until the end.
02:16:54 --> 02:17:04 [SPEAKER_05]: This was, as we said, it was a darker Carol, but it's by recognizing the shadows that we can enjoy the light of ghosts on a plane.