Oscars 2025 – Spotlight: The Emilia Pérez controversy

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[00:02:22] Welcome to the Lorehounds, Oscar's 2025 prep series. I'm your host, Alicia. And if you haven't yet, do check out the mini episode. You'll find that linked in the show notes that introduces this entire series and gives you an overview of what's coming. Plus, check out the animation categories episode that's already been released, where I get insights into not only the nominated films from the man representing six of their Oscar campaigns, but into Oscar campaigning in general.

[00:02:48] Today, I'll be joined by two guests with a voicemail from a third. And we're going to be talking about a little Frenchican film that could. The one with 13 nods, the recipient of the most Oscar nominations this year, Amelia Perez. And this is not going to be the usual deep dive. So don't worry if you haven't seen it. We only bring up a couple relevant plot points that are applicable to our conversation. And we don't spoil where the story goes.

[00:03:14] Rather than the plot and technical side of the filmmaking, which I will be discussing more with other guests when we discuss the various categories that this film is nominated for. Today, we're going to be talking about the controversy swirling around this movie. You may have heard that this French movie about a Mexican trans woman has upset the Mexican and trans communities. And then you may have heard after that about a bunch of tweets from the lead actress that's getting the movie into even hotter water.

[00:03:41] So rather than me trying to explain what all is going on myself, I've brought in some friends from the affected communities who are involved in various ways with filmmaking and the film community to give them the space to speak for themselves. So whether or not you've seen this movie or whether or not you liked it, it's worth hearing what they have to say. And yeah, this whole thing is getting really wild. So without further ado, let me bring in my two guests, Dina and Halvary of Mexico, to get down to the bottom of it all.

[00:04:13] So thank you so much, both Dina and Halvary. Thank you for joining. I want to give you a chance to introduce yourselves. All I've said so far is that you're both from Mexico. So Dina, please, you and I know each other first and foremost through the Wheel of Time community. Yes, correct. Well, what can I say about myself? I'm just a Mexican. I'm here to talk about this.

[00:04:43] You have a lot of film. Film, yeah. Films and TV. And mainly on the narrative side, I've always been passionate about stories and how they are constructed. So that's kind of my background. And I was always a huge fan of the scripts, but also the post-production part in editing and actually shaping the story in the final stage. So that's what I do.

[00:05:11] I am a film editor or a video editor in general. And I'm really excited to be here. Thank you for asking. Thank you. And you brought in Havri because, Havri, you have written about this topic recently, actually. Yeah, I'm a screenwriter and I keep a weekly column about film and TV.

[00:05:33] And recently I wrote a quite funded rant about Emilia Perez. So, yeah, we're going to definitely let you unpack that. And we're also going to hear a bit from another friend, Aki, later in this episode, who's going to be weighing in from the trans perspective. So, yeah, it is funny.

[00:05:57] I asked you both here today to talk about the general controversy that's been swirling around this movie in recent months from the Mexican and trans perspectives about how this film was made and what was and wasn't considered. And we're going to get into all that. And then we are going to get into what has happened since we made we set this recording date. And then a whole bunch of shit has hit the fan in the week. And it wasn't that long ago. No, less than a week.

[00:06:27] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's been it's been a crazy week on this topic. So I guess it's it's fortuitous that we have this recording plans just to sort of try to help to unpack it for ourselves. But for listeners who aren't following the trades and all that. But I also want to acknowledge at the start that I know there are people who like this film, obviously, because it got 13 Oscar nominations. And that is that is one below the absolute record.

[00:06:57] So only three films have ever gotten 14 nominations in the history of the Oscars. Only 12 have ever gotten 13 nominations in the history of Oscars. So it is a highly decorated film. And I'm just I know that they're going to be quiet for this section, probably for the most part. But I just I don't want to I don't want to tell anyone that, you know, they're wrong for the things that they do like about this film.

[00:07:25] So we're going to go through this through the good and the bad and the ugly of Amelia Perez. This is one of those at a time. We're going to talk about what's been going on, how this might affect the Oscars and the film industry as a whole. And I'm just going to throw out a blanket just in case. Spoiler warning, like we're not really here to focus on the specifics of the plot, but I want to be free to bring them up as they're relevant to this discussion. So just be warned about that.

[00:07:54] But the premise of the movie, for anyone who hasn't watched it yet, is this is the official synopsis. A Mexican lawyer that's a character played by Zoe Saldana is offered an unusual job to help a notorious cartel boss retire and transition into living as a woman, fulfilling a long held desire. And the director is Jacques Odiar, who is a well-respected director for films like Rest and Bone and The Sisters Brothers was his first English film.

[00:08:23] And this film premiered at Cannes in May of 2024, got a standing ovation, as most films do there, but got some passionately mixed reviews. And it came out on Netflix and in theaters in November of 2024, still in theaters in a bunch of places. It's on Netflix in the U.S., not in every country. But yeah, and that's when after it came out in Netflix, I would say is when more and more people got to see it and more and more of this stuff started to come to light.

[00:08:54] So before I get, I'm going to get into some of what the nice things people said, but I have to ask, was it immediate when it came out in Mexico that people had like a response to this film? It was even before that, because that was also part of the problem. The last country to premiere the movie was Mexico. The last, yeah. It only, it came out.

[00:09:24] Like a couple of weeks ago, something like that. Yeah, I think January 23. Wow. Okay. So it's like they were hiding. Exactly. Exactly. Because they knew a bunch of critics, but it's prone out of it. A lot of us got a chance to watch it earlier. I'm not going to give details about how.

[00:09:55] But yeah, critics and this kind of reaction have been quite universal around it. In Mexico, yeah. I think at first, when we first started really hearing about it was when it came out in the US in November. But it was mostly just clips of different Selena Gomez dialogues. And at first our reaction was strictly just, this makes no sense. Haha, this is funny. It's going to become a meme. Right.

[00:10:25] But we really didn't have any more context. And then as people started releasing more and more and more online, that was when we kind of slowly started seeing the worst of it first. And it wasn't only after we had already formed our opinion that the movie came out. Right. And so everyone was already like, no. This is not worth it. Right. Right.

[00:10:50] So this is the state for you guys where you must have felt like, you know, you were going mad when you see it gets 73% positive reviews on Rotten Tomatoes from critics. It's currently at 18% from audiences, but I think it's, I don't know what it was at before things really started to go wild against this film. Yeah. It's hard to find people who speak positively about it now.

[00:11:15] But there was like, here's a sample critics review from December. Phrases like game changer and cutting edge can't capture just how audacious an original Amelia Perez is. I dare say it wouldn't or couldn't have been made or even conceived just 10 years ago, or maybe even five. And there's a lot of praise, especially for the three acting performances.

[00:11:38] Carla Sophia Gascon, who, yeah, does play kind of two characters before and after wildly differently, which may be part of the problem. And Zoe Saldana, those two are nominated for Oscars. This film's been heavily decorated. It's nominated for Best Picture, Best International Feature Director for Jacques Odiard from France. We'll come back to that part.

[00:12:06] Lead actress is Carla Sophia Gascon from Spain. We'll come back to that part. Supporting actress Zoe Saldana. She is a first generation U.S. Her Spanish is good. Zoe Saldana. You hear her accent is not from Mexico, but it is good. But it is. Okay. Yeah. It's better than. Than Selena Gomez, who's I think sixth generation or something. Something like that. Yeah.

[00:12:30] I have to add, I don't know if here or later, but part of the problem with the Spanish and the critics, it's screenplay problem. Yeah. Not necessarily the actress. It's not the acting as much as the screenplay. Necessarily. Mm-hmm. Because it seems that it was translated with ChatGPT. Yes. This is what I hear. Yes. And that's also a problem. Well, so it's wild because it's nominated for adapted screenplay.

[00:13:00] It's nominated for film editing, sound, cinematography, makeup and hairstyling, original score, and two original songs. And I'm going to talk about the music side of it, the original score and original songs in a separate episode that I'm doing with Mark from Nevermind the Music. So we'll get more into that side. But there's still like the two front runner Oscars. It was a front runner for two awards.

[00:13:29] Zoe Saldana for supporting actress, which come on, the entire movie is from her perspective. That's category. But anyway, an international feature. But the lead actress has been starting beef with the other top contender for that category. And I don't think that's going to go well for her. Yeah, no. So she started beef with every single person she could. Yeah.

[00:13:55] So, I mean, I have to say when I first watched it, I don't know. I don't know if I want to say confused. I gave it a middling score. I didn't know about any of the controversies yet. And my Spanish is not good enough to really recognize that it wasn't good in the show. But I said, as an avid lover of musicals, I hate to say it, but the songs were often the weakest part for me.

[00:14:21] Sometimes they worked beautifully, like the ones at the very beginning and the very end. And musically, there were some interesting things. But the lyrics felt very juvenile, dumbing down what was more effectively being communicated otherwise. And I think that probably applies to the complaints about the script in general. And, you know, just to quote one more person who gave a four-star review in what I think is an earnest, heartfelt way, they said,

[00:14:46] I'm not an expert on Mexican culture, but I believe that any criticism directed at this film is valid and not just an overreaction from the Mexican community. If they felt offended, it's completely understandable for them to boycott and voice their concerns about the film. That said, I truly loved it. It stirred something within me. It's deep, bold, and vibrant. Sure, some of the music might be silly, but it fits the context. And I found the entire experience really enjoyable. This film moved me. I think cinema should do just that. Shake us up, evoke emotions, and open our minds and hearts.

[00:15:14] And so that's, I won't say who, but that's one of the few positive reviews I could find on Letterboxd because they've been well and truly buried by now. Yeah, we tend to do that. I mean, it's not just coming from Mexico, too. It's just a lot of people are, and it's definitely become, yeah. So I would say we should be here celebrating this historic moment.

[00:15:39] But it's actually because it's the first trans acting nomination ever. However, instead, we're going to tell you why people are upset. Yeah. It absolutely sucks. It absolutely sucks.

[00:15:54] Because if you think about it, if someone just came to me and told me in very general terms what this movie is about and what the general idea of the movie is about, I would be like, oh, that's intriguing. And that's definitely a perspective nobody has done. But when you see the execution, this whole thing reminds me of that episode in The Last Airbender.

[00:16:24] When they go, the team avatar goes and sees a play about themselves. Uh-huh. And people are fascinated by it, the ones who are watching it. But they, the ones who actually lived everything, they are so annoyed. That's ridiculous. And they're so offended. Right. They did that in Game of Thrones, too. Yeah. Or House of the Dragon. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that.

[00:16:46] And it's, you know, when we as spectators of that show, of The Last Airbender, see that, we understand why they are upset. Because we have also seen their lives for three seasons. Mm-hmm. It's very obvious for us to understand that. But possibly if someone without context of the show watches just that episode, they'll be like, it's funny, but I don't get what it is about.

[00:17:13] And I think that's what's happening to a lot of people here. Like, I see that Mexicans are upset or that the trans community is upset, but I don't really understand why. So this time that you're giving us to talk about it is very important. And maybe you won't still, you still won't see the big picture of what we see.

[00:17:38] But what this last review said of this is what movies should do, they should spark something in us. They did, but that spark should, you know, shine brighter and grow beyond I saw this movie and it moved me to I will now do my research and look more about this and see.

[00:18:02] I mean, this movie, again, it touches so many different areas from missing people to the trans experience to our drug dealing cartel crisis. You could choose to do your research on any of those topics and then maybe you will get a different perspective about it. And it's funny because the director, Jack Oliar, actually said in an interview, I didn't do the research.

[00:18:30] What I needed to know, I already knew. But then I watched the movie, first scene, first montage. And it ends with a remix of a really iconic Mexico City song, which is Ferroviejo, which is a song that goes and plays on cars of people actually going to buy old scraps of metal something.

[00:18:57] And it got really iconic and it's known for that. And if you can understand what Ferroviejo is and means to use it in your movie, it means you did some kind of research, man. You only decided to research the wrong things. And that's also part of the offensive and the racism.

[00:19:22] You're choosing to research the exotic part of it, not the true part of it. Right. Yeah, it does. I mean, I have to say that the production design and everything, it does feel like a fairy tale. But I was saying to you before we started recording, I was like, well, then maybe just set it on Mars or something, you know? Yeah. Or, you know, it could be a French fairy tale made by a French director. But then you know how to make the references. And as you say, yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:52] So I want to bring in another voice here quickly. So I asked my friend Aki to weigh in. And she is a trans woman I know through the Star Wars community. You can find her on Blue Sky at Kicks and Sticks. And yeah, this is what she had to say about. Oh, and I want to preface this by saying that when she recorded, she sent this in before the latest barrage of bad tweets that we'll get to later on.

[00:20:20] So when she says that she hopes that Carla Sofia Gascon gets more parts, she doesn't mean specifically her, especially not now. She means more, you know, she'd like to see more interesting roles for trans actresses in general. So, okay. This is what Aki has to say about the film. When I watched Emilia Perez right when it came out on Netflix, I hadn't seen any social media posts about it yet. So the discourse hadn't really gotten into its full swing.

[00:20:47] So I kind of got to see it fresh without any of these prior expectations. And on my first experience when I was watching, it kind of struck me as the trans film that you might have seen in a previous decade. Something that might have been considered progressive or even good. And to be charitable, when I was watching the Vaginoplasty song that is now going viral, I was actually having a great time.

[00:21:14] It was kind of one of the few parts of the film that worked for me because it was so unserious and unhinged and even stereotypical. I really did find that the capital was hilarious, even if that was unintentional on the director's part. And I think one of the big problems with that reaction for me is that this film wasn't trying to be campy and trashy. And the Academy certainly isn't treating it like that either.

[00:21:44] So if this is going to be a serious film at the grown-up table, and this is coming out in 2024, there's no excuse at this point to be rehashing these old transphobic and turfy tropes about how trans women are violent, how they abandon their families, how they have a kind of male rage that can come out of them.

[00:22:08] And I really find that so many of these problems that I'm pointing out can be traced back to the fact that the creators of this musical weren't trans, just as they weren't Mexican. And we live in a political landscape right now where the United States government and governments around the world are really set on targeting and eliminating trans people.

[00:22:32] And we have these self-styled progressives and liberals in the Academy who may certainly believe that rewarding this film is a step forward for trans people, when at the same time, I'm really not seeing that much that is trans in this film. So I guess one thing that I hope is Carla Sophia Gascon gets some more work out of this, because I like to see trans women getting paid and having jobs.

[00:23:00] But I also keep going back to this idea of trans visibility as a kind of trap. And what I mean by that is I think visibility has become, in discourse and the way that it's framed in media, has become a way for self-proclaimed allies to feel good about themselves when the material stakes of trans lives are so far removed from whatever the Academy thinks they're doing.

[00:23:25] And I would really encourage people to go and seek out these trans films that have been overlooked or ignored by the Academy and go and see I Saw the TV Clow and National Anthem and Crossing and The People's Joker. Because at a time when trans people are fighting back against such incredible violence, we should really be supporting the stories that have our lives and our communities woven throughout

[00:23:55] the storytelling process. Dean, I see a lot of head nodding as you're listening. Well, it's just that a lot of what Aki said resonated with what a Mexican trans woman who has been gaining traction lately because she directed a short film in response to Emilia Perez called Joan Sacoblo, Camila de Aurora.

[00:24:22] It resonated a lot with what she has been saying about, you know, she also mentioned that when she went to watch the movie, at first, like her first reaction was also to be enjoying it from a, this is funny perspective. But that at some point within the movie, she was like, but this is too much, like this is too much. Disrespect towards us.

[00:24:50] And as Hoverty was saying, it's too lazy of a research and too lazy of an approach. Like, wow, big news. When this guy is a guy, he is super evil. And when she is a woman, she is Mother Teresa. And that's why I was nodding because it reminded me a lot of what Camila has been saying.

[00:25:15] So, yeah, this is clearly not as groundbreaking or as, I don't know, edgy or, yeah, as they were, as they are trying to convince all of us that it is. I don't know. Yeah. Oh, and I just want to back up the, the recommendations that Aki gave have been definitely getting a lot of, not quite as much recognition as Emilia Perez, but getting a lot of recognition.

[00:25:43] I saw the TV glow is one of my favorite films of the year. It is a horror film. Crossing has been getting a lot of love. And what else did you say? The People's Joker and National Anthem. So more people want to look up those. Hoverty, what did you think about the, what Aki had to say? I also resonated a lot precisely for what Dina said. And specifically part in relation with the Academy, because at the end,

[00:26:11] the problem by itself is not necessarily Emilia Perez. Like if it was just a movie, bad adapted to Mexican culture and with bad Spanish and poorly something we can make a meme out and laugh about it for a month and then forget it. All right. It's not that bad, but it's the main competitor to win everything on the award season. That's the problem after all. Yeah.

[00:26:38] Because that's a reflection of the lens through which the global North industry looks at everyone else. Like, all right, this is inclusive, but it's like artificial inclusive. Like, yeah, we did our part. We put it down there. We're good. Feels like Green Book all over again. Right.

[00:27:03] Like, and that part is the one I think people just don't understand. They don't understand. Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah. Not nice. And are there things that you would add to that from the Mexican perspective? I mean, I could add the receipts, like for all the things that got overviewed. Uh-huh.

[00:27:32] There's one in particular in my text. I dedicated an entire like subsection to that because it's that frame in which, all right, uh, Emilia Perez just got her revelation about, uh, all the wrongs she did when she was part of the cartels.

[00:27:53] After she realized the son of a woman looking for him after disappearing, disappeared because of Emilia's, uh, work at the cartel. Right. So after this revelation, she goes to the NGO and so on and so on. And at some point they found the body of this guy.

[00:28:20] And when they return it to the mother, the reaction of the woman is kissing Emilia's hand. Mm-hmm. And that hurt, man. Especially knowing the context of families looking for their loved ones in Mexico just to give, uh, numbers.

[00:28:40] This was a long time ago, uh, important newspaper, Universal, uh, said there was 234 collectives of families looking for the loved ones all around. Mainly women, mainly mothers doing this. And the piece also says this is a difficult number to keep track of. Mm-hmm. Because disappearances keep going on.

[00:29:10] So more collectives keep sprunging on to do this job. They've made a lot of, uh, achievements of that. They found like 1,200, sadly, they died. Mm-hmm. They found around 1,300 alive all over the country. But it's also dangerous.

[00:29:35] Like, from 2019 to today, at least 21 mothers looking for their children have been killed. Wow. Doing this. Because it's a violent country. It's, it's, it's dangerous to look for your people. So when I see a mother looking for her children, kissing the hand of the person responsible. Right. For the disappearance of this, uh, guy. That's just cruel, man. Mm-hmm.

[00:30:04] It's, it's, it's, it's not only offensive. It's cruel. It's mean. So that specific frame for me, it's like the most offensive. Yeah. In general. And that kind of goes down with the entire problem, which is the disappearances crisis in Mexico.

[00:30:24] Like, when I wrote my piece, the number was around, uh, let me see, 121,599 missing people in Mexico today. Mm-hmm. This was on January 26th. Mm-hmm. I came back to the registry. Today is almost 300 people more on that.

[00:30:54] In a really short span of time. So this is a really open wound to us. I don't, I don't know a single person who directly or indirectly has been affected for the violence crisis. And the way this guy approached it with cynicism, like I didn't, did the research. I already knew what I needed to know and yeah, whatever.

[00:31:23] Doesn't recognize that suffering. It's inhumane. It's like, dude, this is an open wound. And, and, and, and you're just using it as a leverage for, I forgot the word. How do I say? Capricho. It's like. Right. Artistic. Capricious. Yeah. Yeah. For artistic capricious or, or something. Capriciousness. Yeah. And that's the point after all.

[00:31:50] And moving forward, even the reaction of the director of Carla Sofia and mainly the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the crew. It's been gaslighting. It's been like, no, no, no. You don't have, why to be offended? We did it all out of love and we didn't do anything right. Da, da, da, da, da, da. But the point is, dude, we know what we're talking about. Yeah.

[00:32:20] Why that story? Yeah. We're not asking you. We're not asking you if you were offensive. You were offensive. Period. Period. So that kind of reaction also fuels the anger, you know? Did, has Jacques Odiard, who's again French, has he said why he wanted to set this in Mexico?

[00:32:41] Ah, this was also a clip that came out recently, which when you watch it, just a clip, you may think it's out of context. Then you go back to see the entire interview and it's not out of context. He definitely meant what he said. He wanted to do that because Spanish is a language for poor countries, modest countries, migrant countries.

[00:33:11] Developing countries. Yeah. It's just as you heard it. It's not out of context. That's what he said on the interview. And if you watch the longer clip, he meant to say it. It's not just, we are not just taking this quote out of context because we're mad. That's what he said. That's what he wanted to say. Wow. It's like, dude. Right. Part to proving the point.

[00:33:36] And if I remember correctly, there's one member of the cast, one of the minor roles. I think the woman that. Adriana Paz. Yeah. Yeah. She is Mexican and she's the only member of the cast. And the crew is all French? Mostly. Mostly. I wouldn't know about the entire details. Right. But certainly when they go on stage, it is funny.

[00:34:04] Everyone makes fun of like at all these award shows, like, you know, an American, I have an American accent. They'll say like Amelia Perez. And then, you know, you hear someone from Mexico. You can say it better. Amelia Perez. Amelia Perez. And then the French go on stage and they say, Amelia Perez. Yes. Everyone's like, well, how is this film pronounced? Yeah. And I think that's part of the problem. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:31] I think it all boils down to, you know, something that's already been briefly mentioned, but the view of otherness that the global north has of so many of us, not just Mexicans, I will say the entirety of Latin America, Asia, Africa, the Middle East, the LGBTQ plus community. We are the others.

[00:35:00] And therefore, we are seen as exotic. And sometimes it feels like the only thing that the global north wants from us is the commodity, the comfort, the fun, the cultural richness. But they don't actually want to acknowledge that we are also people, that we are also human, that

[00:35:25] our countries have issues, that many of those issues have been caused by them. Mm-hmm. I mean, he said that Spanish is the language of the poor and the developing countries, as if there are no French colonies. Right. They are living in an awful context. And as if we had willingly chosen to speak Spanish. Right.

[00:35:49] And there wasn't like, you know, an inheritance from terrible acts committed against almost an entire continent. Decimating communities. Yeah. Yeah. And when you think about it, it's like, and he chose a Spanish actress. Mm-hmm. From Spain. Yeah. From Spain. Yes. From Spain. To play this character.

[00:36:14] After which the movie was called, even though we could argue whether or not she is the main character. But she's not. Yeah. It's just a mess. Everything about it feels like a mess. Yeah. It's also funny, just for comment, from whose side the arrogance in the response has come from, because Zoe Selena has all these weeks been like, if I don't move, they don't see me.

[00:36:44] If I don't move, they don't see me. If I don't. Selena. I actually bought her suffering and sadness in her story, for example. I think they acted worked. I think that's authentic. I truly believe she's in pain about that. Of course, there's a lot of context around that. But she understands part of, like, she's able of empathy.

[00:37:11] Even in the Golden Globes, after all the first part of the drama, every single time she was mentioned in relation with Emilia Perez, her face was like, you don't talk about me, man. It's like. A little uncomfy. Yeah. Like, she's listening. Mm-hmm. Or so it seems. Yeah. It seems. She's the one that might say, all right, maybe we screwed up. Mm-hmm. But Carla Sofia, she just gave an hour-long interview yesterday saying, like, I didn't do anything wrong. Right.

[00:37:39] Sorry if you're offended because I've said something offensive. Right. So on and so on. And the French guy is the same guy. Like, European responses, like, you're no place to call us out. Yeah. Well, yeah. No place to call you out. No, no, no. But I will defend any blanket European responses. Oh, no, no, no. Sorry. Yeah. Okay. So just, yeah, we're going to get into the ugly now. You're bringing that up.

[00:38:07] I just want to say that we will link, Javier, if that's okay with you, we'll link to your article. I know it's written in Spanish. But for those who are curious, in the show notes. And also we'll link to, Dina, you brought up Johanna Sacrebleu. Johanna Sacrebleu. Bienvenidos a la France. Yeah. Since you mentioned the pronunciation of Emilia Perez, I generally believe we should all be

[00:38:35] saying Johanna Sacrebleu. Because Emilia Perez is a French movie that's mostly, you know, in English. I like it. And so we should be saying Johanna Sacrebleu also with the English pronunciation. One step forward. Juan Sacrebleu. No, that's fair. I'm going for Juan Sacrebleu. Okay.

[00:38:57] Johanna Sacrebleu was, as you said, it was the response from, it was a crowdfunded response from a trans woman in Mexico who was like, okay, let me make, it's a half an hour long. It's mostly in Spanish, but they do do some French with Spanish accents or Spanish with French accents. Unfortunately, no subtitles. But you can watch it and kind of, you get the point that it's, it's about a baguette heiress

[00:39:26] who's trans and a croissant heiress who's trans and their love story. There's a lot of toy rats involved. Everyone has a little French mustache. Yes. They fight with baguettes. You see several characters in the background who were inspired by French culture or who are French. It's very fun. You'll enjoy it. And the music is very catchy. It's way better, actually.

[00:39:57] Oh yeah. We're going to discuss that with Mark. Sorry for being the one ranting, but it's actually quite angry. No, no, please. I brought you on here to let it out. But I saw a comment on threads yesterday when, like in regarding of some people saying like, yeah, Juan Sacrebleu is just as offensive to France as Emilia Perez is from Mexico. Except. And it's not. Because Camila had empathy as a line.

[00:40:26] Like she put that stop there. She could have made fun of all the victims of terrorist attack. She could have made fun of Charlie Hebdo stuff. A lot of things she could have made fun just as offensively as they treat Mexican victims, which I spoke about early. She chose not to. Right. Because there's a line. Right. For us.

[00:40:56] And that's empathy. And I think that's a really important thing about. Right. And for anyone who doesn't know, Charlie Hebdo was the shooting in France at the magazine. Yeah. And you're right. That's a comparable. Yeah. That's something very serious that no French person would really joke about as well. Yeah. And the fact that Juan Sacrebleu is a response, like it's activism film, but it is explicitly

[00:41:24] meant to be satire. And it's explicitly meant to be a comedy. It is explicitly meant to make fun of this because of its nature, because of why it exists. And Emilia Perez, wow. Emilia Perez is not. And that's also part of the problem, that they are trying to convince us that this is a reality. This is how things happen, minus the music, of course.

[00:41:54] But it's not. And we know it's not. And nobody involved in that film is willing to say, yeah, well, we screwed up. And in Joan Sacrebleu, they knew from the very beginning that they weren't being serious. Right. They were just responding. Right. Right. Yeah. And now, yeah, getting onto this more serious side of things.

[00:42:19] I mean, you mentioned some carelessly cruel things that Jaco Gaudillard has said, but then people started digging around in the stars, Carlia Sofia Gascon's tweets. We're going to call her Carla or KSG from now on, as they did say. It's not been pretty what they found out. So, yeah, I said here, mucho versismo. I'm not going to read the racist tweets, but let's just say that nobody got missed with this.

[00:42:47] It's like a first round I saw where I was deeply Islamophobic. But then the next ones I saw were like Hitler apologism and Holocaust denial. Just every group, people from East Asia, just just nastiness thrown in all directions. Went after a bunch of celebrities. There is some bullying tweets about Adele's body in which she freaking tagged Adele.

[00:43:15] And she even there's even mean tweets about her co-stars, Selena Gomez. So you kind of wonder. Which I should say that out of everything, the one that she has categorically denied is Selena Gomez. Selena Gomez won. She has categorically denied ever writing that. And she claims that she already talked to Selena about it and that Selena supports her. However, the only problem is that she deleted her entire Twitter account.

[00:43:42] So we can't know now which is real and which is fake. But yeah, I was thinking earlier, like, well, between her and the director, they are so talented that they got the entirety of Latin America united. Not only the Spanish speaking, but also the Portuguese speaking. Oh, yeah. We'll get to that. Latin America and with the director's comments about Spanish. Now even people in Spain are mad. Yeah.

[00:44:12] So that's what you said is true. She didn't spare anybody. Everybody can find themselves in her horrible tweet. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. And as you said, she deleted her Twitter account. But however, as you were saying, she won't stop talking to the press. And I have to say, you know, the filmmakers, the crew and Chaco Diardo and the publicity, especially, they're like, please stop. But she just keeps doing it. She keeps painting herself as the victim.

[00:44:41] You know, it's all a witch hunt after poor her. And she's learned from like a year ago. One of her comments was comparing the backlash from Amelia Perce with the Holocaust. Mm hmm. After being in a Holocaust denial years ago. Like. Make up your mind. Yeah. First of all. Or don't. Just keep silent.

[00:45:09] Do whatever you want, but in silence, please. Please. I mean, I'm sure that's what everyone on like her family and everyone who's working with her is like, please just stop talking. Please. Because then, as you know, so you brought up the Brazil. So one of the other a big film this year, I'm Still Here. It's it's up for Best Picture International and Lead Actress as Amelia Perez is also up for all three of those.

[00:45:36] And she's just been starting beef with that film saying like, oh, well, you should hear what they're saying about me. Well, there's no receipts of anyone from the I'm Still Here. I should say I and a style key something. You guys can probably do Portuguese better than me. But yeah, she's she is basically starting a beef with the entire nation of Brazil and Brazilians are wicked online.

[00:46:05] They will go for you. They are committed. They are committed. I think the last people you should go against online are Brazilian people, Taylor fans, Taylor Swift fans and K-pop girls like you just don't. Right. And yeah, I was actually in Brazil. Right.

[00:46:33] I was like, oh, my God. I was like, oh, my God. Yo, that's it. Whenever I met someone new and they found out that I am Mexican, they were like, and you're with us, right? You are with Fernando Torres. You want Amelia Perez to die. And I was like, of course, yes. I mean, I can't imagine it winning any Oscars at this point. I do feel a bit bad for Zoe Saldana and Selena Gomez.

[00:46:59] You know, even if her Spanish isn't great, like she seems like a nice person that they are kind of caught in this fire. And what are they supposed to say? You know, and Zoe Saldana, she has saw an Oscar this close. And now it's probably drifting away. The thing is, I'm not so sure about that. I think this is an opportunity for every person involved with this movie and every person who

[00:47:25] has been involved with how much recognition it's getting to take five minutes to reflect, to shut up and listen to what others are saying. And then after listening calmly and with an open mind and an open heart, say, okay, I've heard enough. Now, these are the conclusions I've reached. And these are my thoughts now.

[00:47:53] That's all, you know, that's all we are asking for. Like, just be quiet for a second. We understand that a lot of people don't mean to hurt others and don't mean to insult and don't mean to attack. But just give yourself the chance to consider that maybe even if it was unintentional, that's what's going on. And listen and listen.

[00:48:19] It's just like with Carla, what I keep thinking every single time I see a new clip is like, this could be avoided if you had shut up like five interviews ago. Mm-hmm. You have said, you know, that blanket statement that is also not great, but we're already used to it from celebrities sometimes. Like, I have realized that my comments are problematic. I will take some time off and I will come back.

[00:48:49] And in the meantime, I will try to work on myself and whatever. That's not a bad, you know, I'm learning now. That's not a bad technique to just be like, peace out, people. Peace out. I'll come back hoping that you forget about this. But no, she is a protagonist. And she has to be there and prove to us that she is right. Main character energy, yeah.

[00:49:16] Yeah, I mean, I feel sad for the trans community because obviously it's a dangerous moment for them in general right now. And this should be, as I said, a moment of celebration for their first trans acting Oscar nomination. And now it's a moment where I'm sure a lot of people feel like they're being made to look bad. And that's just want to emphasize again, that this is one person's behavior.

[00:49:43] And, you know, this has nothing to do with any other aspect of her identity. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Do you have more to add? Final thoughts? Or do you have any other Mexican movies you would throw out for people to watch instead? Yeah. I was thinking about it from the moment we settled this call. And I have a few.

[00:50:13] I decided to sort of focus on the topic of missing people. Okay. One is, I'm going to say the name in Spanish first and then the one that I found to be the name in English. One is Sin Señas Particulares, which is identifying features directed by Fernanda Valadez. Or Valadez. I'm actually not sure. But it is a story of a mother who travels across Mexico in search for her son because the

[00:50:42] authorities have mentioned that he died while trying to cross the border. And as Halberdi said, it really portrays the dangers that mothers looking for their family members go through. Then the other one would be Ruido Noise from 2022 directed by Natalia Beristain. It's about a mother who's looking for her daughter who has been missing for two years.

[00:51:11] And this one kind of focuses more about her inner turmoil and how her life changes. Because A, of her missing daughter. B, of her activities as a searching mother. And the last one I will mention is actually a documentary. This is a real story. And it's called Las Tres Muertes de Maricela Escobedo, The Three Deaths of Maricela Escobedo.

[00:51:38] It's directed by Carlos Perez Osorio. And it's also about a woman who was searching for justice because her daughter went missing and then she found out that she was murdered. And then, so it's called The Three Deaths of Maricela Escobedo because her first death is when her daughter was missing.

[00:52:05] The second one is when she realizes that she's not going to find her life and then you should watch it. But this is a real story. It's very, it's not easy to watch. It's a documentary that really shows you how tight our hands are when we actually try to supposedly go the right way to find people and ask authorities help.

[00:52:35] And we are constantly betrayed over and over again by those people who are supposed to protect us. So those are three movies that I really had in my mind this week and that I think you could watch. Focusing specifically on the missing, the missing people problematic that we have in our country. Crisis we have in our country. Okay. Okay. Well, Dina stole two of the three I had.

[00:53:05] Mine. Which two? So then they know they have three recommendations. Brutal noise. That one, it's brutal to see for a lot of scenes and about the process because they actually went to film with actual mothers looking and digging for trying to find their children.

[00:53:32] So that's how you can actually listen for the stories. And in this inner journey, one part I remember it struggled me up. It's the hurt to see. It's not even trying to find your daughter alive. It's just trying to find even the body just to have closure. Closure. Yeah. And that's quite a reality.

[00:54:02] Yeah. And once again, it's not hard to find. It's a half an hour Googled about it. Since I also had it in my recommendations. I don't remember the name in English. Sorry. Identifying features. Identifying.

[00:54:23] And the one I would add, which is not strictly directed with the missing people, just the violence crisis is Noche de Fuego by Tatiana Hueso. In English is Prayers for the Stolen. Okay. Which is an actually accurate name. It's like Fiery Night, though. That's a more exciting title.

[00:54:49] But it takes place in a rural community in Mexico, which every single time the cartels come and quite violently kidnap a woman. So the entire village has had to develop strategies to deal with it. A lot of the girls are dressed like boys, so they don't look like women, so they don't take it.

[00:55:18] And the main characters, three girls just entering puberty and teenage that are so used to this, are exploring the relation within this reality and how you enter what should be your teenage years. You know? Right. This one actually was pre-selected for the Oscars when it came out in 2021.

[00:55:48] Didn't get the nomination for International Future, which once again is part of the problem of how the actual voices telling our stories are constantly silenced. Right. Right. So we should say that at the Oscars this year, Emilia Perez was the French submission. Exactly. Which I'm a bit mad about also just because I wanted the French submission to be The Count of Monte Cristo because I just thought that was a brilliant film.

[00:56:18] Yeah. It feels like it's stealing spotlight from everywhere, you know? Yeah. And so if you were into The Count of Monte Cristo story, look for the, there was an American miniseries that apparently is just okay, but the French film from last year is very, very good. Just very sumptuous costume casting, everything. Great rendition. But yeah, and the Mexican submission was Suho. It wasn't selected. Yeah.

[00:56:47] I haven't watched it. Have either of you gotten a chance to watch it? No, I haven't gotten a chance to watch it. But I hear it's great. Yeah. We'll have to wait and see it. And that's probably, I think that that one is also, it's about gang violence, but I would assume from a more respectful angle. Yeah. At least a more truthful angle.

[00:57:10] You know, I actually think I got the chance to see Ainda Estou Aqui, I'm Still Here, the Brazilian submission while I was in Brazil. And I think even if you watch that one, which is from Brazil, you will get something that's closer to the Mexican experience than what Emilia Perez is. Okay. It's also a very beautiful movie. And whenever people get the chance to watch it, please go and do it. It's in theaters in the US now, but not in much of Europe.

[00:57:40] So I think it actually is in France, though, but not in the Netherlands, unfortunately. So that's the one I'm like chomping at the bit. I'm like, show me your film, Brazil. Show me. It's not coming out until after the Oscars. It's so good. But yeah, speaking of the Oscars, are you guys rooting for anyone, any films at the Oscars this year? Or do you have any favorite films from this year in general? Of course I want I'm Still Here to win as much as it can.

[00:58:07] But for the sake of the quote, I'm just going to say, I don't care who wins. I just want Emilia Perez to lose. I don't care at this point. I just want that to lose. I am rooting for Fernanda Torres, for sure. That's the lead actress, and I'm Still Here. Yes. If she doesn't, then Miki from Anura. I forgot her name. I'm really sorry.

[00:58:37] Anura was one of my favorite films of the year. Yeah. And it felt surprising, you know. When I saw what it was about, I didn't expect it to be that good. Yeah. Well, I think it does something similar that Emilia Perez was trying to do, where Anura is about, it's about a, well, she's an exotic dancer, but she's also a sex worker on the DL.

[00:59:02] And so it enters that world, but not in a voyeuristic way, but in a very authentic way, you know, where the director spent a lot of time researching and understanding this world. This is not the first film he's made in that world. And then it also, and then it goes, like, it gets crazy. And it's actually quite funny at a lot of times and a lot of, like, surprising and sometimes violent twists and turns. And I think if you want, like, that atmosphere, that's a film to watch. Yeah, definitely.

[00:59:32] Definitely. And, well, I've already said it, but Ainda Stoaki stole my heart. I think it's very powerful. Fernanda Torres totally carried it. And, yeah, I think, I think it's not going to win. I know it's not going to win. I think it's going to win international, at least. Maybe, maybe actresses. We'll see. Yeah. I don't know.

[01:00:01] I don't trust in the Academy anymore, man. She surprisingly won Best Actress at the Golden Globes. Golden Globes. Which was amazing. It was just a thrill to watch. But, yeah, you were saying earlier, Alicia, that you think Emilia might not win that many Oscars now after so much controversy.

[01:00:26] And I don't want to be the cynical one or whatever, but I don't really have the faith in that. Because we've been through this before. From, you know, Dances with Wolves, Slumdog Millionaire, Crash. There's always been a movie every certain amount of years that supposedly tries to depict the problematics and the human nature of a people. And it completely misses the mark.

[01:00:54] And it's super nominated. And it's super recognized in certain circles. And it keeps happening. So, I'm not that optimistic. Yeah. I do think they might still want to carry that discourse of, no, but we are amazing. And we are so progressive.

[01:01:15] And look, and now that we are living in this political landscape, we are still rooting for the supposedly Mexican story and blah, blah, blah, blah. So, I think that I'm with you, except what I think has changed within the past week is I think that has crossed the line, the lead actress.

[01:01:37] I think that now, if you just, I mean, if you're curious, Google her tweets and it's shocking and it's hard for anyone to ignore that. I hope so. I hope so. I really hope you're right. And it would make me have a little faith, not only in the academy as an institution, but also in the United States. Because right now everything is looking very gloomy.

[01:02:06] But just to say something else, we are mad and everything, but we can also remember that the Oscars are just American, US American awards. Right. Right. It's not the end of the world. If something wins, that's just the very, it's just the opinion of a very exclusive group in the US of America.

[01:02:36] And that's all. It's ringles, ringles, man. Yeah. But it's not. It's gotten more international, which is why we're seeing more international representation. But you're right that I think especially what we need to keep in mind is that these are all the members of the academy are people who have done well in the film business already. That's how they became a member. Exactly. And so they are not necessarily the average person on the street or doesn't necessarily.

[01:03:06] Exactly. Understand that perspective. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. And that's something to keep in mind. I mean, of course, it's a vast bunch of people. So I'm still hoping for the best. We'll see. We'll see. I hope you're right. Let's make it a hate watch of the Oscars, Dina, please. He always wants me to do hate watches with him. Well, we'll be doing a, I think we'll probably be doing a live watch on the Discord.

[01:03:36] Not sharing it because that's illegal, but just chatting about it. But, but, so Dina, if it's okay, I will put a link to your Instagram to where you have your film reel. If people want to see some of your work. And also, how Maria said, I would like to link to your article and your publication. Yeah, sure. Also Instagram. If that's okay. And your Instagram too. Great. All right. So you'll find those links in the show notes.

[01:04:04] And thank you both so much for taking the time today and, you know, educating us and giving us your perspective. And this is also just, again, blanket statement. This is also a very limited experience from two considerably white Mexicans. There's a lot more online that if you're interested, you can definitely search for more people. Like Camille, the director of Joan Sacrebleu is a good place to start.

[01:04:32] And thank you again for giving us this space and for such a lovely conversation. I really enjoyed it. Yes. Yeah. For all the horrible things we talked about, it was a good conversation. Yeah. To talk about sad things and end up smiling like this. Sounds weird, but it's a really, really nice. How do we get through life? Yeah. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Thank you for that. Right. Thank you both. Thank you so much again to Dina, Halvery, and Aki.

[01:05:02] And of course, the situation has continued to evolve over the week since our recording. Netflix has now severed ties with Carla-Sophia Gascon and her attendance at many events has been cancelled. It's unknown whether she will be attending the Oscars, where she is, of course, nominated. But Netflix sure isn't paying her plane ticket there.

[01:05:23] Jacques Odiard, the director, he's also spoken out against Carla-Sophia Gascon, blaming her for all the film's problems while continuing to say problematic things himself. And since the comments from Odiard, Carla-Sophia seems to have finally decided to stop giving interviews about this, as of the time of this recording anyway. I've been discussing all these developments with Dina and Halvery, and they're rightfully worried that with the tweet scandal blowing up the way it has,

[01:05:53] the original controversy about making films in communities you're not a part of and do no research into, and thus inevitably misrepresenting those communities or turning them into caricatures, that problem seems to be getting lost in the current noise. Halvery added, I'd like to repeat how even though Carla is a horrible person, the final boss of the fight is Odiard and, well, racism. And Dina sent in an additional voicemail to wrap up this conversation, so let's give that a quick listen.

[01:06:21] Now that it's clear that Carla is a persona non grata in the remaining award season, I just wanted to repeat that it's a shame how her problematic nature is taking away all the focus for the criticism we had for this movie.

[01:06:49] Obviously, she should be criticized and there should be consequences for people who are this terrible. However, I do find it extremely tasteless from the director to come out and say he hasn't talked to her

[01:07:12] and that he doesn't understand why she's continuing to harm them when he is just as problematic as her. And I understand, again, as we say, that maybe a lot of people haven't realized why he's problematic

[01:07:35] and why his movie is problematic, but again, he went on record to say he chose to make this movie in Spanish because Spanish is the language of the poor and the developing countries and whatnot. And I really can't believe that everyone has decided to focus just on Carla as a person

[01:08:02] and they are not extending this same level of criticism to the white man. And that is a shame. I wish it would extend to him and people would question this movie and raise their voice not only against her,

[01:08:29] but against everyone fairly. It's been said online a lot. Where is the same energy towards other kinds of questionable people? And we don't need to go that far. Where is the same energy for the director and for the entire movie? And, well, that's what I wanted to add.

[01:08:57] After this news, I do think it is important, again, to hold people accountable, but we're still not holding everyone accountable for the real problem or the whole problem with this movie and this production.

[01:09:16] And I am extremely glad that this is causing so many issues for the Academy in regards to the Oscars. And, yeah, because they deserve it for not having more discernment earlier on. Well, okay. Thank you, Dina. And obviously we're going to be talking about this film a lot more as this coverage continues

[01:09:43] because, again, 13 nominations, so it's going to keep coming up. And we will definitely, of course, keep you updated if there are any more developments in all this drama. And as Dina and Halvary said, now you've listened. Thank you. And you're free to make up your own minds of what you make of this web of controversy. Just thanks for hearing us all out. And please do share this episode with anyone else you think would like more insight into this situation.

[01:10:11] The Oscars series will be back later this week with two more episodes, a Never Mind the Oscars crossover episode about the music categories, which does include three Amelia Perez nominations. And there's going to be another Spotlight episode coming this week, this time diving into the story and filmmaking of eight-time nominee Conclave with Marilyn, Anthony, and David. In the meantime, check the show notes for links to the Oscar-nominated movies

[01:10:38] we've already done deep dives into, plus our previous Oscars coverage this year and last. And also watch this feed for new Silmarillion stories coming up, I think coming out tomorrow. And I know there's a Star Wars Film Festival episode in the works about a new Hope and a Lorehounds play about the new Indiana Jones game. And if you're a Severance fan, do make sure you're subscribed to this separate Severance Lorehounds feed.

[01:11:03] Supercast and Patreon subscribers have access to the extra Severance topic deep dives, which are available through a season pass as well. Subscribers, though, also have a second breakfast episode on comfort foods coming up, and this month's 11 C's is dedicated to David Lynch. There's a few days left to get your votes in if you haven't yet, but Eraserhead is currently winning. Explore the link tree in the show notes to find all those feeds, and also explore the affiliates, My Wool Shift Dust, wrapping up Silo, rolling over into Dune,

[01:11:34] the Star Wars Canon Timeline podcast, Radioactive Ramblings, which just released Princess Mononoke episodes, Properly Howard just wrapped up their season, Never Mind the Music, combining music and psychology, and Rings and Rituals, with deeper dive into, so far, season one of Rings of Power. And you'll also find a link there to our Discord, where there's a special awards season channel under Current Shows, as well as channels for everything else that we're talking about on the network.

[01:12:03] And we also want to hear your thoughts on this season's Oscar crop, and what your other top movies of the year were, especially if you can record a voice message about what exactly you loved and why, and then email that to oscars at thelorehounds.com, so that we can include you in the conversation in the episodes to come. Finally, we always close out with a shout-out to both our Discord server boosters, who make that a better functioning place to hang, and especially to our lore masters, our top tier of subscribers, who make it possible for us to pay for the software

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