Oscars 2025: Nevermind the Oscars Music – Original Scores & Songs

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[00:02:23] Welcome to the Lorehounds Oscar 2025 prep series. I'm your host, Alicia, and today Mark from Nevermind the Music is joining me for a special Nevermind the Oscars music crossover episode to talk about the nominees for the two music categories, Best Original Score and Best Original Song.

[00:02:40] Do check out the mini episode that I did with David, linked in the show notes, that introduces this year's series with an overview of what's coming, plus the animation categories episode is also in the feed in the show notes, where I not only got insights into the nominated films, but also into the Oscar campaigns behind them. And also already out is our episode about the Emilia Perez controversy, where I brought in some Mexican and trans perspectives to help me explain what all has been going on with this year's most nominated film.

[00:03:10] As for spoilers, in general, we're not trying to spoil any of these films. Mark couldn't if he tried, as he'll explain in a sec. But I do mention the log lines for each in case you're not familiar and bring up some plot points as they connect to the music that we're discussing. Okay, I think that's enough preamble. Without further ado, let's bring in Mark and the music. And I'm here with Mark from Nevermind the Music for our Nevermind the Oscars crossover. Welcome, Mark.

[00:03:39] Hi, Alicia. Super happy to be here. Lovely to talk about a show I did not watch about movies I have not seen, at least mostly not seen. Right. So I know you haven't seen the movies. I have seen all of the movies. So we're going to be approaching these scores and songs from a strictly musical perspective. And I'll be the one bringing in the perspective of the role they play in the movies.

[00:04:08] And I told you, you know, especially with the original songs, in three cases, it's literally just playing over the end credits. But I can give more context to what the themes of the film are. Sure. This is one of those moments that, you know, I really wanted to know a little bit about these movies. So I did read some, oh, what is this movie about? There is a version of reality in which you just made me listen to the score and asked me to tell you what the plot of this movie is. That would have been satisfying, probably in its insanity.

[00:04:38] Yeah, I thought about that. I thought about that. But then I am curious, though, what your thoughts are regardless, even if you know a bit about what the film is about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I know the first one, we're going to jump first into the original score nominees. And of course, there's five in each category, as usual. And the first one we're going to talk about is one I know you have a bit more familiarity about, because you and Nicole did a special episode about one of the songs from the soundtrack of this film,

[00:05:08] and that's Wicked. And you guys talked about Defying Gravity. I'll link that in the show notes for anyone who hasn't heard that yet. But you, you're familiar with the play, but not, and the book, you've read the book, but you're not familiar, you haven't watched the movie yet? Yes, by now I have finished the book. At the point that Nicole and I did our episode, I was, I was probably a third only into that book. Yeah, I saw the musical back in the aughts when it was touring. I saw it in Los Angeles.

[00:05:39] I still have not seen the movie. I wanted to see the movie. The rest of my family saw the movie. I could not go with them that day. So yeah, I listened to some of the score, but I know all the music for sure. At least the songs, I should say. I know the music from the musical. Right. This was new to me, the score. Right. So yeah, we, we should make this difference because it's going to keep coming up in this

[00:06:02] episode between the score and the soundtrack because Wicked is nominated for original score, but it's not eligible for any of the songs. Like people are like, why isn't it nominated for one of the songs? Because all the songs are from the play. They're not new. They're not original quote unquote for this purpose for the film. Um, so you have to strip away all of the songs that, you know, and, uh, the soundtrack, I put together a little sampler platter for each of these nominated soundtracks.

[00:06:33] And so I'll play the Wicked one for you now. And the songs you're about to hear are called Arrival at Shiz University, Replacement Teacher, and Ozzie and Invitation. You'll just hear a short clip from each. Here we go.

[00:06:44] So I should point out that the composers are credited as, uh, Stephen Schwartz, who is

[00:07:43] the person who composed the original musical. He's a, you know, musical icon with Godspell and Pippin and a bunch of other things. And, uh, John Powell is the one who converted this music and created this new score for the screen. What are your initial thoughts about what you've heard? Well, just the score itself, I would say of these five, this is kind of the most traditional of them. You think?

[00:08:09] Like, yeah, it feels like, I think there's one other contender for that on the list for me. Yeah. But, um, you know, it's got that whimsical, magical journey, wonderment, Harry Potter, John Williams, Disney movie kind of lushness and joyousness kind of magic. I don't know. I, I, I'm talking in, in adjectives, I guess. Um, it is a massive kind of sound though.

[00:08:38] The orchestra they're using, I think is, is, is really, you know, kind of maximalist on some level. So I think that's not always true with, with some of this stuff, but I find it kind of the most, you know, classic Hollywood on some level, which obviously goes back a while. Right. I was going to say wild robot is the one that I would say that about, but I see what you mean here. So I, I, that's the other contender. I have one thing about that one from the music I heard that sticks out a little bit differently,

[00:09:06] but, um, I, it's an animated movie. I think that's, that's pretty much to be expected as well. Right. And Wicked is as close to animation as live action gets. That's right. Yeah. So I think one interesting thing about this is the two composer thing. I do want to actually talk, I guess none of these songs are, are nominated for original song. So maybe this is where we talk about this whole aspect of eligibility and all that, but

[00:09:33] the, the fact that like, what is the nature of the relationship between John Powell and Steven Schwartz? Because is this a Powell score that just includes tons of themes from, because there's moments in the score where you're listening and then it'll play a little snippet from a melody from one of the songs. And is that the extent of Schwartz's involvement or is there some of the incidental transitional

[00:10:00] music from the play also used in the interstitial bits here? Right. I don't know. Let me, let me play a quick moment about exactly what you're saying. Um, so this is from the, we just heard the three songs. The third one was Ozzy and Invitation. And this is another bit from Ozzy and Invitation right after the, uh, actual sung song, uh, one of the iconic songs from the play that Cynthia Erivo sings and, and it's the wizard and I, you'll hear the melody coming back in the score.

[00:10:28] You'll say to me, I see who you truly are. I got one whom I can't realize.

[00:11:00] So, um, I, you do hear that come back more and more, but we also know that Dune 2 was, uh, the score by Hans Zimmer was disqualified because it had too many elements from Dune 1. And also there's a, another song that was a favorite for original song Forbidden Road by Robbie Williams from Better Man, um, disqualified for the same reason. They said there was too many references to his previous work in there. So this is a question. Where did they draw that line?

[00:11:29] So, I mean, we jumped right into talking about the music and we didn't talk at all really about this as a concept, like this whole award and this film centered thing for music that, I don't know, that seems like an arbitrary distinction there because clearly this is a adaptation of preexisting music. There's obviously new music composed by Powell. Right. But yeah, where is that line getting drawn?

[00:12:00] How many references, like, is it, is Dune part two 60% recycled from part one? I'm not sure I've seen both of those films, but I didn't, you know, listen to the, I didn't revisit Dune part one's soundtrack after seeing part two. So it feels a little arbitrary. I, I don't know. I can't, can't say they're wrong, but it's strange. Other awards bodies have ruled differently and said Dune is eligible. So it's, it is kind of arbitrary.

[00:12:26] Have any deemed, have any deemed wicked ineligible? Hmm. Not the score. I don't know. Not that I'm aware of. Not that I'm aware of. Yeah. But I do, I mean, I like the score, as you say, it is quite like frothy fantasy fairy tale as fits the movie. I do like though how the different, you know, I played three snippets there that are all quite expressive. You have the joyous arrival.

[00:12:54] You have the ominous replacement teacher. You have the tick tock Ozzie and invitation. Yeah. And I can say, I feel like if you had like a John Bryan or a Trent Reznor score over the visuals of this film, it probably would feel disjointed. This is the kind of score it needs. Right. Right. Again, me having not seen it, but having watched a lot of the musical excerpts, the songs rather,

[00:13:20] there's a visual palette to this that kind of needs the sort of Disneyland treatment a little bit. Um, so, okay. I wanted to ask you, unless there's more, I don't have a whole lot more to say about the score of this, but the whole idea of the eligibility or ineligibility of the songs, like why do you think there is not a new song in Wicked part one? Because clearly the, so many musicals and we can talk about some of the other ones, like

[00:13:50] they add a song for probably the, um, what's the term? Like cynical reason almost of awards baiting becoming eligible. It's a musical show. We have to be eligible for an Oscar. Right. So why not Wicked? I think, well, I know that there are two original songs coming in part two that's coming out this year. And I think that probably it comes down to the fact that, um, part one of the musical just

[00:14:18] has most of the most iconic songs from the musical. So it's kind of full already and they didn't want to draw away from any of those. But whereas the second part leaves a little more room to play. Yeah. I mean, I would say iconic is one way to say it, but literally all the most majority of the songs at all in the musical are in part one. Right. Like, I think it's at least two thirds of the, the tracks if I remember, but I mean, I guess there's reprises and stuff. That's true. Yeah.

[00:14:48] Yeah. Sure. So, but still, yeah, I wonder a budget this big two out, two and a half hour runtime or whatever it was three more minutes for that Oscar seems tempting to not only the filmmakers, but to Schwartz. Maybe it shows a level of taste. Yeah. I mean, it's restraint, right? Because I have to say, like, I just sort of dug for a few minutes, like what are the musical films that add songs?

[00:15:18] And most of the time it's not the strongest song. So, you know, Sound of Music has two new ones. I have confidence in something good. None of those, neither of those are the songs that people remember from that show. Right. Jesus Christ Superstar, which I love and will defend despite the bombast of it, has Could We Start Again, Please, which is definitely not one of the stronger songs in that.

[00:15:45] Can you think of any ones where the new, newly added, I've got one where I'm like, oh, wow, y'all added a banger. I mean, off the top of my head, no, but I am thinking of other cases in this very Oscar season, like that Robbie Williams song I just said. It's just not the best Robbie Williams song, but it's the one that's new, you know, or there's another film, Kneecap, that I'll bring up again in a minute. And they, you know, they can't do their biggest hit.

[00:16:13] So it's another song, although that is very good and it should have been nominated. It wasn't on the shortlist? Yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So the thing that I was actually blown away, I didn't realize this and correct me if I'm wrong, but according to the internet, Grease, the movie version of Grease adds, you're the one I want. You're the one that I want and hopelessly devoted to you. And you're the one that I want is such a good song. Right. And it makes sense because it feels more of the era.

[00:16:41] The musical came out a few years earlier than the movie. And you're the one that I want is a little more kind of 80s-y. And that, you know, and that song is so good. And it's like, wow, that's not in the music. If I saw the stage play and that wasn't in it, I feel like I would have been shocked and appalled. Unless I'm wrong about that. But well, maybe they put it in the stage play after that, because now anyone who goes to see Grease is going to expect that. Right. And there's revisions all the time.

[00:17:10] I think Little Shop of Horrors, the revival version of that might have... I only know this because I played in the pit orchestra of that when I was in college. What... I think they may have added the song from the film to the stage play. I'm trying to remember if that's true. Rent is another film where they didn't. They just cut songs and they did not add anything new in the film. But... Yeah.

[00:17:38] Anyways, this is kind of a fascinating element to me. Like the decision to do that or not to do that. And then the extent that the composer can kind of... Right. Replicate. Oh, sorry. What am I talking about Rent? The other thing about Rent, Jonathan Larson's dead, right? He passed away at the premiere of... Right before the premiere of Rent. So obviously they were not going to add a new song to that film version.

[00:18:03] That would be in really bad taste if they had like Anthony Rapp compose something or something. Anyways. Onward. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's move directly into the other one that you and I both agreed is maybe a more expected score. And that is The Wild Robots where the score is by Chris Bowers who... He's known for scores for like Green Book, King Richard, The Color Purple, the new one, obviously Bridgerton, Dear White People.

[00:18:31] But he's also actually a documentary director and he co-directed with Ben Proudfoot two Oscar nominated slash winning documentary shorts. So in 2022, A Concerto is a Conversation was nominated. And last year, The Last Repair Shop was the Doc Short winner. So multiversital man. Yeah. Don't know either of those. That's cool. Yeah. And so I wanted to point out two things about this.

[00:18:58] First of all, there is a song that was on the shortlist that a lot of people expected to get the nomination and that's Kiss the Sky. So here's a little clip of that song for anyone not familiar. What if you chase your heart? I'd do the end. You try.

[00:19:27] You just might kiss the sky. So yeah, that's a nice song. But again, that's soundtrack, not score. And that's Maren Morris, I think is the vocalist. Maren Morris is a singer. Yes. Are you familiar with her? I'm not. No. But I listened to the two new songs for this film and I thought they were both good. Like I was kind of surprised. I liked them more than some of the actual nominees.

[00:19:54] Are these end credits or do they fit in? Yeah. I think that, yeah. Kiss the Sky, I think was end credits at Fiverr Call correctly. But it does fit into the movie. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It kind of reminded me of, is it Tangled? I think there's like a kind of an acoustic pop tune in the beginning credits and end credits of that movie too, that this felt sort of like a spiritual cousin too. Okay. I like the score for this.

[00:20:23] I do agree. It's pretty traditional. I do think it has a kind of percussive loopy element that's in a lot of the musical cues I was listening to that I'm assuming is meant to kind of represent a robot, right? Something mechanical, something inorganic, or even though it felt sort of woody and organic in the sense as opposed to metallic.

[00:20:50] But it had almost a kind of minimalist aspect to it that I think makes it feel a little bit less classic Hollywood than the Wicked score. That's what I was getting at when I said that the Wicked kind of took the cake for most sort of traditional film style. Yeah. I think as I have them laid out, they go from more traditional to more inventive, except for, we're going to talk about Amelia Perez separately at the end. Sure, sure.

[00:21:13] Um, but yeah, maybe I should lay out that for anyone who doesn't know the basic plot of Wicked is it's a, you know, it's a sibling, an alternate universe, as you might say, version of the Wizard of Oz from the perspective of the Wicked Witch of the West, um, and her schooling at university and her best friend with Glinda, uh, her best friendship with Glinda the Good Witch.

[00:21:37] Um, and Wild Robot is about a personal serving robot who, uh, crash lands on an island and ends up befriending the animals there and raising a little duckling. And so just to give you a sample of what this score sounds like, uh, so this is a medley of four different parts, uh, activating learning mode, rock mouth, that thing, and universal dynamics. So you'll hear a bit of what Mark's talking about in here.

[00:22:56] So don't worry. That last part was not your speakers glitching out. That is actually part of the music. That's cool though, right? That's not, uh, you don't do that just with an orchestra, right? That's a production. That's an electronic or, or I shouldn't say electronic. It's a, it's a mechanical or electronic manipulation, right? And that's cool. I think that's an inventive way to tackle the, the theme. What, whatever the theme of this movie is, I don't know, but there's a robot with a, with a,

[00:23:25] with a goose or a duck. So it, um, yeah, cool. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, uh, you've convinced me actually that it is a bit more inventive than Wicked's per se. So are, are we, are we talking about likelihood of winning who our preferences are? Are we doing that here? Sure. Yeah. I'll tell you what my preference is when we get to it, but, um, okay. So far that is, that is, I, I appreciate that the inventiveness of that score.

[00:23:55] Um, I don't think it's my favorite of the bunch, but it's, it's, it's pretty cool. Um, okay. Yeah. Which is your favorite of the bunch or you want to save it until we listen? We'll say that because I also want to, uh, reserve the right to change my mind as a part of the conversation, as, as I hear your thoughts, et cetera. And we hear the, the, the clips again. Well, you just changed my mind about the wild robot. So that's how conversation works. All right, cool. Fair enough. Uh, so, okay.

[00:24:23] We're going to, next one is Conclave score by Volker Berdelman. And, uh, we talk about this also a bit in, in the Conclave episode that's coming right after this. Um, but basically he said he wanted a score. There was neither too ecclesiastical nor classical and therefore turned to lesser known instruments like the crystal bashe, which is a crystallophone played using wet hands. Were you familiar with this instrument?

[00:24:50] So I know crystallophones like the glass harmonica, you know, the Ben Franklin invented glass harmonica is probably the most famous one aside from just someone on the street with, with wine glasses. Um, I have not heard the crystal bashe. It's not commonly used enough that it shows up in pretentious grad school classes or anything like that. Yeah. But it's a cool sound. I mean, they're very, very haunting, sort of like an alternative to strings in some ways,

[00:25:19] sort of, but also sometimes sound like synthesizers or flutes and stuff. It's, it's an interesting, uh, the theremin has come up recently in conversations about severance and it kind of has that similar ethereal quality to it. Sort of a sine wave almost quality. Yeah. There'll be, there's a link in the notes where you can watch a video on YouTube of them playing it. And it's, yeah, it's very otherworldly and actually surprisingly versatile, uh, because

[00:25:47] it has like this kind of like symbol behind the one side that reflects the sound on the lower end. So it can get, do very interesting things. Um, so that's one aspect of this score. And, um, the other aspect is this ricochet bowing technique. And, um, yeah, you'll, I'm going to play some clips where you'll hear that, but they, in order to mirror the film's factions that are fighting with each other, the factions of cardinals, they use a lot of, uh, polyrhythms.

[00:26:16] And so there's like such as triplets against 16th notes. You can talk a bit more about what that means. Well, let's, let's, let's do it. Then we, okay, let's listen to it. Okay. So this is, um, this is also a clip I played in the conclave recording, but this is the, uh, um, kind of the theme. If anything, there's a, is a theme it's this, and it's called arrival.

[00:26:59] Do you have any clips with the crystal bachet in it? Um, there was some in the background here, but here is, here's two of the songs together, walk through rain and post lewd, just to give you more of a sample.

[00:27:43] So you can kind of hear this constant humming in the background. And I only could pick it out once I listened to, you know, uh, sounds of that instrument by itself on YouTube. I mean, it's serving a similar role to what, you know, contemporary, you know, pop song or something would use a synthesizer for a pad. We call that a pad, right? It's not really a lead instrument in these contexts. The strings are kind of the dominant sound.

[00:28:09] It's more just like one of those things where you listen and you hear strings and then you realize, wait, it's not just strings. There's this sort of atmosphere to it. And certainly that might not be true for the entire score. I heard a few clips that weren't as string sort of forward, but most of it seems that that is the active, like the character of the music is more of the strings, which is interesting because so much of the intentionality of the score seems to be based on the unusual sound

[00:28:38] of the crystallophone, but it's sort of a subsidiary instrument in terms of a lot of the musical cues that I was listening to at least. Um, and it's interesting because Bertelman, I don't know his music, but it seems like he's very into the prepared piano, which is something with some kind of coincidence. Maybe we hear in one of the other scores that's nominated, but not in this score.

[00:29:05] And the prepared piano just shows an interest in unusual sort of, I think I can recognize that, but I can't quite recognize that sounds. I don't know if that's something you're familiar with. No, the prepared piano. The prepared piano is like a way to get yourself kicked out of music school because you take a piano, you open it up and you hammer things into it. Uh huh. You take, you either drop nails in it so they rattle around or you even like will screw,

[00:29:34] drill and screw a screw into one of the strings so it pinches. And so if you listen to, for example, probably one of the most famous early pieces is one by John Cage. That's this fascinating piece for prepared piano and it sounds like drumming ensemble and he's just playing a piano, but it sounds so bizarre because the piano has been essentially ruined, but creates these strange effects.

[00:30:00] And it's not a part of this sound world, but, but it's something Bertelman does in other work. And so it's clearly he's interested in things not quite being the natural expected sound. And in this case, it's this, this crystal instrument that maybe nobody quite in the same way that ever, no prepared piano sounds the same. It's not like, Oh, it sounds like a clarinet. No, every time you do it, it's unique.

[00:30:28] And so there's this, I think I know what that is, but don't quite know what it is that you get with this, the crystal Bechet, which I think just speaks to kind of an interest in tamer that he must have as a composer, which I thought was really pretty cool. And this score of all of them, this is probably my favorite, possibly brutalist, but this is the one that makes me want to see this film having just, and obviously the whole, what I've

[00:30:57] read of it, like the Palatio sounds, I'm super interested in this kind of thing. The, the sounds though, you're talking about different characters going against each other. I'm not really hearing that rhythmically because it all feels very compound meter kind of, I'm not hearing polyrhythmic stuff, but the, the ricochet of, so that that's the, those it's

[00:31:23] ricochet is basically like you, it's, it's what it sounds like. The string player will bounce the, the bow on the strings instead of intentionally hit it. And so it's a little out of time, a little, uh, light, but intense. And this is the kind of thing, if you, if anybody listens to Michael Jacchino scores, you hear a lot of these kind of what's called extended techniques for the strings. And he's using it usually for drama intention here.

[00:31:52] It feels like it might be something slightly different, but it's, it's fascinating to hear kind of divorced from any plot, just the sort of drama of this music. I feel like I've talked a lot. What, what, what do you got on this one? Um, well, I, I should point out that, uh, Volker Bertelman actually won the Oscar. I think it was two years ago for all quiet on the Western front. And, um, that was a score that he used the harmonium a lot in that, which, uh, is something that will be familiar to silo fans who watched season two.

[00:32:22] Um, but yeah, that one has a sort of, it got, it has a very catchy score, but also was made fun of a bit because it was like, and a lot of that, uh, very effective works well in this, you know, world war one movie. Um, but yeah, he got the Oscar two years ago. Overall, I would say this, I find one of the most interesting. And at first, before I really started like looking more into these and thinking about

[00:32:48] it more deeply, I would have said that this is my favorite just because yeah, the combination of all these things that we've been talking about creates this really fresh, interesting, intricate sound that, you know, my brain is attracted to, attracted to more complex sounds like that. Um, but, and yeah, it works well in this sort of creating something that's classical and timeless at the same time, you know, modern and classical mixed together, which you'll hear Marilyn talking about in the conclave episode.

[00:33:15] Um, but I also do find overall, it's a more steady score. Like it has a bit less variation than some of the others. Okay. This is a great spot to take a quick break. And when we get back, we're going to dive into my surprise favorite score of this year. And, uh, we'll see if Mark agrees once we break it all down. See you in a sec.

[00:33:52] So that brings me to what I am surprised to say is my favorite in this category, which is the brutalist by Daniel Blumberg. And the reason I'm surprised to say it is because overall, I don't love this movie. Um, I'm going to spend lots of time, you know, talking about it in later categories about, uh, I have some issues with the directing and the writing and, uh, elements of the story like that. But, um, when I started to analyze the score for the brutalist, there's a lot of interesting things going on.

[00:34:21] We're going to get into, but it made me understand and like the movie a little bit better by analyzing the music that was composed for it. That's interesting. Um, yeah, I, I, this is the one I know the least about in terms of plot, like my half a paragraph of summary that I read, I'm like, I still don't know what this movie is, but I found the, I found the score really interesting.

[00:34:45] I think, like I said, I heard a lot of prepared piano or, or electronic sounds mimicking a prepared piano. I'm not totally sure about that, but there's also a mix with atmospheric effects here that really feels like one of those films where the score is blending in with what we would call sound design, right? Right. So where do the sound effects begin and this, or where do the sound effects end and the score begin? It may not always be clear.

[00:35:13] I think of a, a film that kind of epitomizes that for me is the score, the John Taverner score for children of men. If you've ever, if you've ever really stopped, I mean, it's a great movie, but there's moments where an explosion happens and the music does a thing. And then you hear this ring and you're going, is that music? Or is that tinnitus? Is somebody's ear ringing? And it's both, right?

[00:35:40] And, and I, having not seen this, I have no idea if that's happening here, but it felt like we were in the world in a, in a way that was beyond just music, which again, made me really want to see this film, which sounds like maybe not as successful as the music. I mean, don't listen to me when it comes to this film, because, um, it's widely loved, you know, you'll see very high ratings for it and everything.

[00:36:05] And I'll talk more about what my issues are with just the sort of the structure on the, um, especially just, yeah, the directing and the writing. And there's on the one hand, there's some editing things that are extremely interesting where the music and, uh, the visuals are edited together in a way. It's almost like a fever dream. I'll give you an example. Um, I realized I didn't say conclave, by the way, it's about the election of a new Pope for anyone who doesn't know.

[00:36:35] And the brutalist, just to set that up a little bit, cause it is important to talk about the score. It is about, uh, a, a man, a Hungarian Jewish man played by, uh, Adrian Brody. And by the way, I should bring up, there's a controversy about this because he is obviously Adrian Brody's American and he's playing this Hungarian character. So they used AI to help give some of his Hungarian, uh, a more authentic tone.

[00:37:03] They altered his voice is what you're saying. Basically. Yes. They, to, to like round it out and give more to, they blend his voice with someone else basically to give him a more Hungarian accent. And they also use this for, uh, the main character in Emilia Perez to extend her singing range. So these are the AI controversies this year. Okay. So Emilia Perez, we could put a pin in that, but do you mean the main character, Emilia

[00:37:30] Perez or the, that one I can, that's a different kind of controversy, I think. So, okay. So the, the accent thing, you're talking accent essentially. I'm talking accents. I mean, he doesn't sing, but yeah. But he's not, or he's sorry. Sorry. He's not speaking in Hungarian. Right. No, I mean, so this is the thing is it's not generative AI. It's not like, you know, you're stealing somebody else's voice in this case.

[00:37:58] It's just, uh, in this case, I think, you know, I do think there are legit uses for AI and this personally, it doesn't bother me. I don't know if you have a different feeling about that. It's like the auto tune. You just, you guys just did those episodes about auto tune. What's. Um, I, the thing about, okay. The thing about it is can he kind of do the right accent? If he can kind of do the right accent, he's an American. Yeah. Maybe that needs to be good enough. That's the thing.

[00:38:27] It's like, what, what level of why not just hire somebody with the correct accent? If it's that important. Why not just hire a Hungarian actor? Sure. Because it's not Adrian Brody, but yeah. Right. I sure. I guess you want Adrian Brody, but there's something about like, like we can, I'm not generally somebody who's as annoyed with like Daniel Radcliffe's accent as an American speaking like, or Tyrion Lannister's or so. I, I don't care that much.

[00:38:52] I see why people do care, but there's sort of a, are, is everybody speaking English in this film? Um, no, sometimes I think they use it actually when he was speaking Hungarian because, you know, they, they, they are natural about it in the sense that although they have these awkward conversations where he and his wife are like, well, let's speak English now so we can practice. Right. So I guess, I guess the question would be, who's it annoying?

[00:39:19] Is it annoying people who speak Hungarian that are like, oh my God, it sounds so weird. Or is it annoying people who don't, who don't like the idea of it? Like. I think it's just the word AI is such a hot button trigger word. And I think from my perspective, as someone who's had my career seriously affected by a different kind of AI, I do think we need to make the difference. We need to draw the line. It's again, it's, it's can be ambiguous.

[00:39:49] Like we're saying like, how much of a score can you reuse and still be called original? Well, yeah. Where's the line between, uh, AI that's just sort of, um, on the re-speecher end of things versus generative AI. So you or I, or whoever is going to use an AI tool after we record this podcast to get rid of the little mouth sounds that we have.

[00:40:15] That is an AI that is trained to recognize human mouth farts and remove them because they sound bad on a mic. That is so different than someone looking at everything you've ever written online, claiming ownership of it and having chat GPT or a writing program do it. So if this is just a, essentially a spectral analysis like AI that is recognizing the formance

[00:40:42] of his voice and recognizing the formance of a native speaker that has, they have paid to, to speak the lines and then adjusting. I find that completely fine from a like future of humanity, ethical perspective. If they have combed the archives of Hungarian television to get the accent right.

[00:41:06] And then they're applying that to Adrian Brody instead of hiring a Hungarian, then I have major problems with that. So I guess it depends on what's under the hood and I suspect it's more of the former rather than the latter in this case. Right, right. Well, okay. About the music. Right, right, right. So Daniel Blumberg, he's a composer and he, uh, he had a group GW, G-U-O with a saxophonist named Seymour Wright.

[00:41:34] And they collaborated with Brady Corbet, who's the director of this film on a short film and performance that they entitled G-Y-O-T-G-Y-U-T-O, which was, uh, it was a 2019 thing in London. But so this is their previous collaboration. And then, um, and then Brady Corbet is like, well, why don't you just come score this whole magnum opus I'm creating? And I should mention this film is three and a half hours long. Wow. Yeah. Um, but there's a lot of interesting things musically going on.

[00:42:04] So I actually divided this up into more, uh, shorter clips. So I first want to just talk about the overture, which is obviously a sound you'll hear coming back again and again. And, um, so this is a story of Adrian Brody's character. He, Toth is his name. Uh, he's an architect who just got out of the concentration camps and he has been separated. This is post-World War II. He's been separated from his wife who was in another camp and his niece who was with her.

[00:42:34] And, um, he has gotten to the U S ahead of them. And so the overture begins with him arriving via ship in the U S but at the beginning of the film, you're not even really sure what's going on because there's this music that's overwhelming you. And at the same time, there's like, uh, you can't tell where he is. Like the camera's all disoriented. He's coming up out of a ship. And finally you see the statue of Liberty, um, upside down at first.

[00:43:01] And, uh, meanwhile, there's a voiceover from his wife who's saying things in Hungarian. So you're trying to read the subtitles at the bottom and this music is playing.

[00:43:36] And then versus on the bus after that, we hear this version. So we see this establishes, you know, this is the theme of it. And when we see how, um, Daniel Bloomberg is you taking this, you know, and adjusting it for this sort of overwhelming first moment of arrival versus being on the bus where you're

[00:44:06] just on a long-term thing. And then there's a lot of concordant things. And I think this next one might have some of those features that you were talking about before. Um, so this one, I combined jazz club where, you know, the entire kind of structure of this film is a lot like jazz. So this one is very appropriate and I put it next to another one called chair, which is about him building a chair.

[00:44:30] Again, he's an architect and, um, just to see like how he, when you listen to the music and you focus on the music, you start to understand how his work helps him create order out of the chaos. And you can hear that in this.

[00:45:12] And then this is chair. That sounds like the prepared piano to me.

[00:45:41] So you were saying that sounds like a prepared piano. Yeah. I mean, it might not be, it could be some other sample or something, but that's really what that sounds like to me. And up against that low brass theme coming back, it's really interesting because it feels like two separate worlds kind of happening and I don't know what they represent separately. Um, it's really cool. Is this all. So isn't it like 10 minutes of uninterrupted music at the beginning of this film or something like that? Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm definitely clipping these way down, but, uh, right.

[00:46:09] But like, and at the end too, is it one of those things where kind of all, you know, almost like a musical, a musical theater overture where you're kind of getting a lot of the musical materials that will be used later. Yeah. Does that happen in this overture? Is the overture separate from the music that's going to be happening two hours later? Well, I mean that we just heard the overture come back here in this chair one. Right. So I think the overture seems to be connected to the American dream.

[00:46:36] So at this point when he's working on his chair, he's like, I'm, I'm doing my architect work. I'm back. I'm going to build myself an American life and live the American dream. And I'd say a lot of this is about, uh, a lot of this film is about the American dream and maybe the emptiness thereof. Um, and it's interesting how it reflects his mood. So another pairing that I found really interesting is, uh, porn and library.

[00:47:02] And just, so this is one of the things that made me like the film more because there are periods in the film where he's just like randomly watching porn and you're like, all right, I get it. I get it. The guy likes, you know, porn. He likes, he visits a prostitute early on. I get it. Um, and I'm like, what is this all about? What are you trying to tell me with this? And now listening to the music, I understand that it's, it brings him calm.

[00:47:28] It brings him, uh, and then the library song, that's from where he designs a library for, uh, Guy Pearce's character. And there's this moment where it's completed. And to him, this is just like perfection. It's a space where he can meditate, where it's, it's clean and, and well-designed and, you know, it gives him this sense of peace and things coming together. So this is the pairing of those two ideas musically. This is porn.

[00:48:09] That's at the end when he comes. And this is library.

[00:48:59] I think it's interesting how it brings back some of that chair too. It's all, it's all very tightly related. And it's interesting because those two are kind of a pure sound, right? It's just a piano and it's playing jazzy stuff, but it's not jazzy chaos like the club scene. And it's not a messed up piano. It's not haunting brass. Like it's all, it's a straightforward sound and they're related musically. Very, it's, it's, it's interesting. Yeah. This is cool. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:49:28] And then, um, the final piece I wanted to share with you guys is it's from epilogue. So this is the end of the film jumps to the eighties and you can hear they combine everything that we've talked about so far. And obviously this is just a, a small pieces, but, um, they combine everything that we've talked about so far. Uh, but it definitely sounds like the eighties.

[00:50:37] Yeah. Thoughts? Yeah. That's just interesting from, in terms of your stylistic illusions, it has a little bit of that eighties like early house or techno sort of sound or Euro electronic dance music. But, but it also feels kind of Kraftwerk-y like late seventies to me, the synthesizer stuff. It doesn't, if you wanted to show somebody what the 1980s sounds like, I wouldn't do that

[00:51:05] because that sounds like things that weren't mainstream, which is interesting because that doesn't mean those sounds don't come, aren't used heavily in the eighties, but they're not used as heavily in eighties pop culture. So that to me evokes different eras, which is interesting because I don't know if that's saying something about kind of what the subcultures being referenced star. I don't know. Like maybe I'm overthinking it. Oh, I will say that the epilogue is set in Vienna. Right.

[00:51:35] It's a Euro trash electronic dance piece. Interesting. Cool. Yeah. I'm super interested in this film. Three and a half hours though. Think of all the episodes of TV series I could watch in that time. To be honest, it's coming to, it's, it's coming to video on demand soon. And that might be, I would have watched it at home perhaps. Maybe I would have been kinder. Right. Over, over four days. Right. Yeah, exactly. Cool.

[00:52:06] Yeah. All right. So, so I don't know which of the, it's either that or Conclave for me are the best of the two scores. Yeah. But it's just because they're, you know, if I'm not watching the film, it's what's most sonically interesting to me. What more represents music that I would want to have on. Mm-hmm. And obviously we're not talking about Amelia Perez quite yet, it sounds like. Yeah. Well, we'll talk about the fifth nominee is Amelia Perez. We have a special section for that. Right. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Let's move on then.

[00:52:34] I, Amelia Perez is not my favorite of the scores. Yeah. I'll say that. Yeah. Alien Romulus, Beetlejuice, which Alien Romulus did get a VFX nom. Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice was shortlisted for the score. Didn't end up getting any nominations. Nosferatu shortlisted for the score.

[00:53:02] Didn't get it, but did get four other nominations. And the one that people are screaming at me to mention at home is Challengers. People were really upset that Challengers score didn't get nominated. I'm going to be honest. It's this kind of driving beat that's over this tennis movie. And for me, the score didn't necessarily work with the film always the way it was used. And I know people are going to hate me for saying that, but that's just the way I feel. So I'm not personally sad not to see it on this list, but I know a lot of people are.

[00:53:33] I agree with you, Alicia. Okay. I have never heard the score nor seen the movie, but you're right. Let's just fan the flames. Make everyone mad. So the only one that I have direct comments of, I mean, I saw Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice. I didn't feel, I mean, for me, the Beetlejuice Uno score is iconic from my childhood. Like probably put the seeds in my head for so many musical ideas that I would find interesting later in life. But the one that I wanted to comment on, it's almost the path not taken.

[00:54:01] The conversation we could have had about Nosferatu. What fascinates me about that, I have not yet seen Nosferatu, but I did recently watch because I want to see Nosferatu. I don't get out to the actual film, by the way, very often. I mean, it's available at home now. Yeah. Okay. I want to see it because I saw the original and what I was struck by with the original that, stop me if y'all talked about this, probably nobody else cares about this.

[00:54:29] So I doubt you talked about it, but I was watching a silent film and hearing really beautiful orchestral music along with it and thinking, what the heck is this music? Because the silent film era, sometimes these pieces would have scores written for them. This one was Hans Erdmann wrote it, but they're not in the track. There's no soundtrack. It would be to be played by a live orchestra or sometimes on a lower budget film, like a

[00:54:58] pianist plays along in the theater along with this. And so there are no recordings of the actual score. And so when I'm watching this, I'm going, well, I couldn't figure out which version is this? Is this the original that they then reproduced? There have been multiple new scores as different, you know, Nosferatu, the original is under public domain. It is not under copyright. But if you... 1922. Yeah. Sorry, say again? I said it's from 1922. Yeah.

[00:55:28] And that's literally the year before the Copyright Act of 1923 that established copyright law, at least in the United States. But also we talked about this in the Nosferatu episode, but it was itself the subject of a lawsuit from the Bram Stoker estate. Right. But it's interesting because there's not a lot of like legal framework back then for, because clearly this is a pastiche of Bram Stoker's story. Right.

[00:55:55] But so my question was, because anytime anybody wanted to release Nosferatu in the last hundred years, they had a choice to make. Do we try to reproduce Erdmann's score with a modern orchestra, which then goes into copyright in terms of the master of that recording they would own? Or do we have a new composer take a stab at it? And both have happened, sometimes with traditional scores, sometimes with sort of, I guess you could say anachronistic stylistic scores.

[00:56:23] And so my question, having not seen this, that I'm fascinated is, is there any reference to any like... To the musical, right? Yeah. Like anything I've heard about the new Nosferatu makes me think that the music is not in any way really referring to something that's so old. And, but there's something about the sort of temperamental state of existence of the score

[00:56:50] at all, like it's at a certain point, it does not even exist. It was written down and not really recorded and it's just constantly up for grabs. And I don't know, I find it so fascinating and it's not on the list, so we shouldn't be talking about it anymore, but... I don't know the answer to that question, but I do know that in general, the director, Robert Eggers, he would, in terms of like the cinematography, and obviously, you know, he's not the one composing the music. He works with a cinematographer, all that.

[00:57:18] But in his direction of them, he likes subtle references, but always with their own take. Like he doesn't, never wants to tip the hat too much to the, something that someone else has done. Like he, for an example I gave in the Nosferatu episode is that the castle that they ended up using the exterior of for, you know, for Orlok, Count Orlok's castle.

[00:57:43] It was the castle that Werner Herzog used in the 1979 Nosferatu. And he's like, no, I don't want to use it for that reason. And then eventually, you know, it just ended up being the best. He's like, okay, but we're going to shoot it differently, you know? So I would guess that would play into his direction as for the composer as well. Like nothing too referential. But nods. But it's even like, what would you be referencing, right? Because which version is even canonical? There is no music.

[00:58:12] There is no nothing in the originals that is silent, right? Anyways, cool. I'm glad you mentioned the shortlist because it gave me a soapbox to talk about Nosferatu that I wanted to mention. All right. Well, let's turn our attention to the original song nominees. And we're going to talk about the three that are not Amelia Perez first. And so the first one, it's from a film called The Sixth Triple Eight. It's a Tyler Perry film.

[00:58:43] It's based on a true story about a group of Black women, a unit of soldiers post-World War or end of World War II, anyway, who were assigned to Europe to basically get the mail to the soldiers. And it was like this impossible task because there's a whole movie about it. So it ends up being a lot about a movie about, you know,

[00:59:11] racism and sexism and the things they face like that. And it's very, you know, if you like Tyler Perry movies, this is my first Tyler Perry movie that I've watched. I thought it was okay. You know, it was never going to be nominated for Oscars for screenplay or anything like that. But the reason it did get nominated is because of this song called The Journey, which is performed by her, H-E-R, but written by someone else. We'll get back to that someone else right after I play a little bit of it for you.

[00:59:41] Someone else. Okay. Yeah.

[01:00:14] So author of the song aside, any thoughts about that song musically? So I would say this is one of the two power ballads nominated. And I would say this is clearly the better of the two power ballads. Okay. I think her sings the heck out of this. I think it's pretty cool. It's got a nice arc to it. Um, I think it's written in some way by the queen of power ballads, you could say, based on the other songs that she's penned.

[01:00:42] But I don't know her that well. I mean, I've, I've certainly heard, you know, hard place and damage and some of the other famous stuff. But I think this is a good performance. It's well produced. Just not knowing anything about this feels like an end credit song. Is this an end credit song? It's an end credit. Yes. It's a good end credit song. And it feels like the sort of power ballad energy feels like an homage to earlier films where, you know, in the seventies and eighties, it was pretty much expectation that you were

[01:01:12] going to have a really sentimental song and the end credits. And, um, right. This delivers, this is probably one of the two. I all, I'll wait till we talk about one of the other ones to decide if this is my favorite or my second favorite of the bunch. Okay. Well, a bunch of people are hoping for this to win because it was written by Diane Warren and, and Oscars aside, uh, do you want to talk a little bit about who Diane Warren is?

[01:01:40] Diane Warren, who came up in nevermind the music episode two on Ace of Basics. This is the sign. She's just right. So many songs. She's one of those people like, who's another person like that? Um, Carol King, where you're like, Oh, that's Carol King. Of course it's Carol King. This is, if you heard a power ballad, you like there's a 30% chance it was written by Diane Warren. So yeah, since, since the eighties and probably even sooner than that.

[01:02:06] So the reason she came up in our episode was, uh, she wrote don't turn around, which originally was a Tina Turner tune. And in that context, it's this rockin power ballad. Again, of course we were talking about the sort of synthy reggae Euro version by Ace of Base, but she wrote rhythm of the night, which is not a power ballad. That's more fun than that. Because you love me. I don't want to miss a thing, which I guess does also come from a film. Uh, nothing's going to stop us now. Unbreak my heart.

[01:02:36] Like there's just so many, I know a million other songs, but, and she won an Oscar a few years ago. She got an honorary Oscar. This is cute. Didn't she win for fight for you from Judas and the black Messiah? Or was she just nominated for that? Oh, that was her. Sorry. I'm like, I'm like, she didn't write that. That was just her. Nevermind. Uh, sorry. Um, her, the vocalist. So she's got an honorary Oscar. Okay.

[01:03:01] So Diane, so Diane Warren, this is her 16th Oscar nomination in this category. Oh my God. Uh, so the first one was in 1987 for nothing's going to stop us now, which is for mannequin. And, uh, then the, then there was a big gap, uh, and her next bout of nominations were between 1996 and 1999 for because you loved me. How do I live? Um, I don't want to miss a thing.

[01:03:29] And yeah, music of the heart is probably the least famous, uh, there, but then, and then there was another, uh, break. She was nominated again in 2001 and there was a break after that. And then since 2014, she has been nominated 10 out of the last 11 years. So every year when we're planning like our death race, we're like, well, what's going to be the Diane Warren song that's nominated this year? So we knew it was going to be. Is this like the Beyonce cowboy Carter?

[01:03:58] Is this like, she has to win because enough is enough. Like you can't keep nominating somebody and not like. Well, we thought like, so she got the honorary Oscar in 2022 and we're like, okay, now it's going to stop. The madness is going to stop. No, it's of course it's not going to stop. She's still nominated every year since then. And, and to be honest, if she does, a lot of people want her to finally win this year, but even if she does, I don't know if that's going to stop the Diane Warren Oscar madness. Yeah. It's, it's like a thing.

[01:04:26] It's, you know, she has to be on the ballot or it's invalid or something. That's funny. Yeah. So I don't have that much more to say about the song. It's a good song. I, I, I guess I kind of hope she, um, table that first or second place this song for me. Okay. Okay. She doesn't need, she doesn't need the accolades. Like she's good. I think either way. I'm sure she would love to finally win. Right. Sure.

[01:04:50] Uh, so the next song is from Elton John's documentary, never too late, which is a documentary about his final U S tour. And part of me does wonder if we, if this is like an honoring the legacy sort of situation, but the song is called never too late music and lyrics by Brandi Carlisle, Elton John, Bernie Taupin and Watt. And this is a little sample of what it sounds like.

[01:05:14] Oh, it's never too late for a wide open slate, a kiss from a stranger, a thousand thirsts. So is this the other one you were calling the other power, power ballad?

[01:05:43] I think this is a power ballad and I don't think it's quite, quite as good. I, this is like, gosh, what do I want to say about it? So I don't, obviously I know Elton John quite well. I haven't seen this film. I don't know Brandi Carlisle much. Like I've heard some of her songs, but I should say this isn't really my type of thing. Like it's not, I'm not, you kind of got to swim upstream a little bit for me to be like, this is the best ever.

[01:06:09] Um, I feel like, and this is a new song written. Is this the end credits of the documentary? Yeah. Or is this, yeah. And it is again, it was a music documentary. So a lot of his music was throughout and I was, I found the documentary to be like really paint by the numbers, music, bio doc. Just, I found it to be surprisingly boring despite some good footage. And there's a really interesting digression just past the halfway point about his friendship with John Lennon. So skip forward. Oh wow.

[01:06:37] Isn't that interesting throughout? I'm listening to a lot of his most iconic songs, you know, like your song and just all these things where I'm singing along. And then this is again, another one where, well, we made a new case. So we're a new songs were eligible for the Oscars. And it's like, meh. Yeah. I mean, it's just, he's, what are you up against? Right. I mean, you're up against your own repertoire and, and look, Elton John's done some interesting things. I think recently, I think cold, cold heart is a cool use of Elton John.

[01:07:07] The fact that you've got Dua Lipa singing the rocket man interpolation, but Elton John singing the new sort of dance copy part. That's like kind of a brilliant subversion of what you would expect. You would expect. Yeah. Say what? It's in the movie too. Oh, it is. And I just think that that's like, it makes a little more sense. This feels like sort of a poor man's candle in the wind a little bit. And I don't know, it sounds terrible to say that.

[01:07:32] It feels a little bit like now and then being nominated, the Beatles song being nominated for Grammy. Like that was very emotional to watch the video of that. I'm a huge Beatles fan. And the achievement from a like AI assisted tools and reclamation of, of audio artifacts of now and then the new Beatles song is amazing, but it's the mediumist Beatles song in the world. Like nobody can hear it and go, that's the best Beatles song or even the top, top 20. Beatles song.

[01:08:01] And I kind of feel like that a little bit with this. So, you know, it kind of bums me out, I guess. Like if this was a, a new tiny dancer or whatever, I would be extremely surprised and excited by that, but it's, it's just not. So it, it gets knocked down by, you know, something like, you know, something that's a little more original, I guess. And it sounds like a jerk. Cause he's an elder state. He's a legend. Right. And, and great.

[01:08:27] Um, and Brandy Carlisle's, you know, pretty, she's not nothing either. She's pretty good and a super powerful artist. It's just sort of, it felt flat kind of to me. Yeah. I feel like the song wasn't necessarily targeted to me. I didn't find it very interesting. Um, my, my favorite is, is the third that we'll talk about. Uh, it's the only one that I actually added to a playlist, you know, to my own, to listen to off the clock.

[01:08:54] Um, and so that's like a bird from sing sing sing sing is a movie. We're going to talk about a bit more in the best actor discussion and the screenplay discussion because it was nominated for those as well. Uh, but it's about a theater program in a men's prison, basically, uh, very heartwarming, but just navigating the realities of that. And it just, it's an exceptionally well-made, uh, likable movie about a very difficult subject.

[01:09:22] And, um, so this song was written by Abraham Alexander. He's a writer and singer and, uh, Adrian, uh, kid days, Quesada is the producer. So they would be the winners of this, uh, if they won. And this is a little clip of what it sounds like.

[01:10:06] It fits. It's another end credit song fits very well with the, uh, feeling of that. And actually that the lyrics there, I give you my word or try, try, try. It reminds me a lot of another, there was a documentary that was shortlisted, but not nominated this year. It's on Netflix called daughters, which is also about a program in a men's prison. And in that case to help them do a daddy daughter dance with their daughters. And, uh, part of it is, uh, makes me tear up a little bit. Um, the making promises to them.

[01:10:34] And according to that movie, they say that, you know, that program in particular, uh, led to 95% of the men who participated and were released did not come back to prison. Wow. That's the stat that they say at least. But anyway, um, yeah, it fits really well with the movie. I think, what do you think of it musically? So this is if, if, um, never too late is pandering to my parents.

[01:11:03] I feel like this song is a little more like pandering to you and I, I think are about the same age and it's just like, Oh, do you remember late nineties and early two thousands R and B? And there's something about this song. I think if just as a song that I would choose to listen to, this is definitely my favorite. I'm still kind of weighing the balance between whether I want this one to win over the Diane Warren and her tune. But, um, you know, cause it, it has the sort of hip hop beat, but it has a very roots American

[01:11:31] roots, music roots, soul kind of feel like it almost reminds me of, I don't know if you know, Alu Black at all. Uh, the artist, you know, folks probably he's most famous. He's a solo artist, but most famous is the vocalist in wake me up by Avicii for listeners. You, that guy's voice, like he, his music is very like sounds like it's 2010s, but also like it's sixties or seventies soul in a lot of ways, but, but very simple in that kind of

[01:12:00] not maximalist, like, you know, I'm a soul man or whatever, or Wilson Pickett, but more like, uh, the sitting by the dock of the bay kind of intimate guitar, maybe another instrument or two that I think is really, really cool. I don't, I don't know either of these artists. I know, uh, Casada's in the Black Pumas who I've heard before and they, they made Grammy noise a few years ago, but, um, yeah, it's cool. It's catchy. It's emotional.

[01:12:29] It, yeah, it's between this and the journey for the clear winner. I would say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I hope so. Um, the last two songs are from Amelia Perez, so we'll talk about them in a second, but just to shout out, uh, there was a shortlisted list of, of 14 songs. I won't, um, I won't shout them all out. Kiss the Sky, as I said, was one of them from the wild robot. You heard that. The other one I recommend looking up is Sick in the Head from Kneecap. That is Irish hip hop.

[01:12:55] And it just hurts me on a fundamental level that Kneecap is not nominated for an Oscar. It should be nominated in this category. It should be nominated as international film. And, uh, yeah, go watch Kneecap, you know, warning for drugs and other adult stuff. Wow. Cool. Yeah. Is it, is it on streaming yet? It's yeah. I'm obviously not going to the movies. Yeah. Unless it's with, with children. Is it on Netflix? I think it's on Netflix.

[01:13:26] Okay, cool. But it's, yeah, it's about an Irish group. Uh, and they play themselves. I didn't even realize to the end, you know, when they do like these, these music biopics at the end, often they'll be like, okay, and now here's real pictures of their real life. And then I was like, wait, those are the same people. And like, oh, it's actually the band members playing themselves in this movie, but they do a really good job. And it's just really stylishly cut together. And it's about how, you know, they have, they're kind of like seen as punks, hip hop

[01:13:54] punks, um, in, in their community, but also about how they're trying to like reclaim the use of the Irish language as part of their cultural identity when it's been outlawed for a long time. Um, but it's a, it's a fictionalized account of them or it's a biopic about them. It's a biopic, but I, I mean, I, parts of it are definitely fictionalized. And like, for instance, Michael Fassbender plays one of their dads. And so that's why I just thought they were all actors. Right, right. Yeah. So it's nice.

[01:14:24] One of them happens to be the son of the daughter of Michael Fassbender. Yeah. No, he wasn't playing himself. Okay. Yeah. Cool. But I, yeah, I just really recommend it. I recommend it. Um, let's take another quick break here. And when we get back, we're going to move on to the last section of this episode where we talk about this year's most nominated and most controversial score and original songs. Be right back.

[01:15:03] Um, okay. So that brings us to the last movie that we've been saving. Uh, and I said, you know, we're kind of going to ask a little thesis here. We have Amelia Perez and the last, uh, episode that came out before this is Amelia. Amelia Perez about the controversy surrounding the movie. We're not going to be talking about any of that. Uh, please refer back to that episode for some more insight into that. We're just looking here at the music.

[01:15:30] And the question is, um, after parts of this have gone viral, is this soundtrack bold or is it bad? And what does that mean? What does bad mean? So to set it up, uh, the score, it was done by, uh, Camille, uh, Dalme, which is, she's a wife of Clément Ducot. And Clément Ducot, you might know him from stuff from like Ratatouille, Chicken for Linda, which is a new animated movie.

[01:15:59] And just to, before we get into the songs from the soundtrack, because again, score versus soundtrack, here's a little sampler platter from the score itself. So you're going to hear Subiendo, part one, El Rapto, El Trio, and Desire, the choir version.

[01:17:26] So yeah, it's a lot of, um, this mixing of voices and especially voices repeating certain words over and over. Um, I called the lyrics juvenile in my review of this movie, but what do you think of just the score parts before we get into the soundtrack? You're talking about song lyrics, juvenile. Yeah. I sang the song lyrics of juvenile. Yeah. Yeah. I would say I appreciated the score spoiler a lot more than the songs.

[01:17:53] Um, for me, in terms of the sonic interesting palette, this is one of the middle scores. Maybe it's kind of about like, or where Conclave is in terms of just sonically. I found the, the synthesizer with choir layering and, and process vocals. I thought it was pretty interesting. I don't know any of the sort of like having, I listened, I watched as many, I basically, I listened to the whole song soundtrack and watched the ones that I could watch.

[01:18:22] And I was able to get some kind of a story, emotional context for the songs. I was not for the score. Right. So I don't know if these sounds are used for good or evil, but like they're, it's interesting to me to hear. Yeah. Um, the sort of voices sort of disembodied voices on some level, like they feel like they're layering in a really interesting way. I found the score pretty successful just as a musical, uh, artifact.

[01:18:51] So, yeah. So my experience with this is that I actually, the score was released before it was available to me to watch. It's on Netflix, by the way. And this is, yeah, we did a whole episode about it, but it's about a, um, it's about a trans woman who hires a lawyer to have a sex change operation. That will come up in a sec and, um, then, you know, goes away and comes back, uh, to try to reconnect with her family, but pretending to be someone else.

[01:19:17] Um, and so when I, the score first came up, it was, uh, because it came out, it was recommended to me by, I listened to Deezer instead of Spotify. Um, so I started to play through it just because, you know, I always listened to the new music it recommends to me. And then I was like, I actually quite like, like Subiendo is the very first song. I like that sound. I'm like, oh, this is really interesting. And, uh, but I decided, okay, I should stop listening now because I'm going to spoil myself for the movie.

[01:19:46] So I'm going to go watch the movie and experience it that way. And that's when I came across the soundtrack, which is the, you know, the songs that are more, there is obviously vocalizations here being used a lot in the score, but then the soundtrack is more, uh, well, let's start with. It's a musical. The musical aspect of it. It's a musical film, right? I mean, I think there's no way around that. Like there are songs and then there is score in the same way that Wicked has songs and score. Right, exactly. Exactly.

[01:20:14] They just happen to be written by the same people in this case, whereas, which isn't true with Wicked, at least not fully true with Wicked. Right. Because this is, um, because yeah, Wicked is based on an existing stage play and this is not. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so you may, as far as the soundtrack side of things, the songs that they sing, um, there are two nominated, but, uh, there's a third one that went viral. So let's start with that one. Just get it out of the way. It's called La Vaginoplastia. And of course, this is an adult podcast.

[01:20:45] Uh, there's a little E next to it, just so you know. And this is quote unquote sung by Zoe Saldana. Hello, very nice to meet you. I'd like to know about sex change operations. I see, I see, I see. Man to woman or woman to men. Man to woman. From penis to vagina. Is it for you? For me? No.

[01:21:13] What would you like to know about it, ma? So maybe a lot of people have already heard that. And actually, um, in my, in the Amelia Perez episode, you'll hear Aki, who's a trans woman said, you know, when she was first watching this happens early in the film. And she was like, I was actually having a ball with that song because it was just so camp. It's just what are your thoughts? So you like that song or? No, I'm not saying I like that. No, no, no, no, no, no.

[01:21:42] This is, uh, I found a very juvenile, but Aki said that she was like, you know what? I had a good time watching that song because it was so ridiculous and over the top. Got it. Yeah. So we're obviously not talking very deeply about the controversy here. You all talked about it. I know what I can know about it, having never seen it, but I, you know, I've read some of the press clippings and stuff.

[01:22:04] Um, I just want, I'll just say, I'm curious what history says, like, what does this look like in 15 years? Because one of my favorite musical films is, uh, Hedwig and the Angry Inch. And I know what that film was trying to do in 2001 or whenever it came out, but I'm really curious what it means in 2025 to the trans community. I don't know. Are you familiar with that?

[01:22:33] Yes, I'm familiar with that. And that's, that's a film that's really embraced by the LGBTQ plus community. So it certainly was at that time, but I think, you know, it is now. Yeah. It is still. Okay. Cause, cause Hedwig is performed by a cis man. Right. And so, and it's like, it's using, you know, it uses terminology of the era. Right. Right. And, and so I'm, I love that though, the music from that film. And I liked the story.

[01:23:00] I'm, I'm a, I'm sort of a cold war nerd, a product of the child of the eighties and nineties. And like the literally my doctoral research was on, like part of it was on the, the musical tensions between the Soviets and the United States and the cold war. So that filmed like right up my alley, but, but there's this question of as society changes, what, what sort of, what do the communities, you know, that should be weighing in on certain characterizations think.

[01:23:30] And it sounds like they're already set more negatively against this film and we don't have to get into the, to, to, uh, much maybe if you've already, uh, cause I haven't, that podcast hasn't come out yet. No, I mean, it'll, uh, it's actually recorded. It's going to be released literally as soon as we stopped recording. I just didn't want to render it while we were recording. So, so yeah, by the time this comes out, it'll be well out. Um, so if we're sorry. Yeah. Should I comment just on? Vaginoplastia.

[01:23:59] No, just comment on whatever you want to comment on. Cause, okay. This is the first song I listened to from this musical. Right. A lot of people, that's the case. It felt like you said it's juvenile. Mm-hmm. And who am I? What, I'm a cis man. What do I know about this? Nobody asked me. It's very important to note that, but it felt like a joke song somebody would have made in a movie, in a comedy movie in the late nineties.

[01:24:26] Like, it feels like, I don't know if you've watched any 80s standup recently, but I won't name any names. But I, in the last couple of years, I watched some iconic 80s standup routines. And sometimes the joke, the punchline is that someone is gay. Right. And that is the entire punchline. And I'm just looking at it like, wait, that was funny just as it is.

[01:24:47] And it felt like in the nineties, when you could be Ace Ventura and, oh my God, there's a shocking reveal that there's a trans woman villain or whatever in Ace Ventura Pet Detective with Jim Carrey. Or certain of the less funny moments in a lot of comedies of that era. It felt like the joke is that we're singing lyrics about a sex change operation. And that that, because that's the only important dimension to transness.

[01:25:17] Right. Which I know, I haven't, I'm not talking about the rest of the film. I know that that's not all this film is about. No, but this is the complaint. Yeah. But it's just so stupid. I put it that way. It feels like a joke that you probably guffaw at in 1997, but like, can't you do a more funny, if you're going to do a song about like a scene where you're talking to a doc, a bunch of doctors about this operation, doing research for your boss.

[01:25:46] Because there's gotta be a more interesting way to do that than like recitative kind of no melody, just like singing on the lyrics, almost sprechstimme as the Germans would say, where you're like speak singing. And I just, this song did not do it for me. I was like, oh no, this is, this is nominated for Oscar. And then I realized later, no, this song was not, this song is just sort of the cult following one, I guess.

[01:26:15] So I don't know, what did I miss? What did I miss on this song? No, I mean, it's, yeah, this is just the one that went viral because it is so ridiculous in a certain way. And as Aki said in her voicemail, you know, if the movie had been intended to be this sort of, you know, a satire or something, then that could have worked throughout.

[01:26:38] But the problem that, you know, just to recap the last episode, the problem is basically that Jacques Odiard, the director, he's come out and said like, oh, well, I didn't need, this is just like a fantasy. I didn't need to do any actual research into these communities, into Mexico also. And so this is where the problem comes back, where it's like, well, why are you telling a trans story if you're not interested in actually what a trans story is? So is this not supposed to be a joke? This song, maybe?

[01:27:08] This song, this song. Yes. This song, maybe? Okay, okay, okay. Yeah. But the joke is just, the joke is we are singing about this. That is the joke? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. That's, you could do better. People do better. Camille and Ducol do better. I don't know, like, can we transition to the other songs? Yes. So let's transition to another one that also has Zoe Saldana speak singing.

[01:27:33] And the interesting one about this is that, oh, and this is where they use the AI to blend Carla Sofia Gascon's voice with Dalmé's, with Camille's voice. Um, and this one, I have to say, it's called El Mal. And Jacques Odiard is also credited for it, which I wonder if that means, you know, he wrote the lyrics for it. And this one was, is not only one of the two nominated, but it is, it was considered the favorite to win.

[01:28:03] That is probably unlikely now after all the controversies. But here we go. This is what it sounds like. And, you know, Spanish speakers are also making fun of the lyrics. It's just, yeah.

[01:28:31] Uh, thoughts on that potential Oscar winner. Yeah, apparently. I thought this was the, a better song than the, uh, than the other one that's been nominated. But then the other one's been nominated. Okay. Uh, it's just like, it's more interesting. It's more fun. Yeah. But I don't think it's a good song. People argued it's fresh. Yeah. Like it sounds a little cool. It's cooler.

[01:28:58] This is a cooler song than Mi Camino, but it is not a very good song. It's like a one note song kind of with a little, like just a riff, kind of a cool backing beat, I guess that makes it more interesting. I, um, I, I feel like Saldana has not given much to work with here in terms of a, I don't know if she's a good singer or not, but she sings some other songs and it's not her gift.

[01:29:24] I mean, she's a very talented actress and I will not, uh, downplay any of the acting in this film, but, uh, yeah, singing not her forte. Yeah. So I don't, this is not one of the better of the songs I heard in the show. So I'm not really sure why. It was a favorite. Except that it features the main actress, one of the main actresses. That's a household name. So I don't know. Yeah.

[01:29:53] I think, I mean, the idea people thought it was really fresh. I am not, so I've tried to, you know, like I was saying this week to prep for this, I was listening to these scores in the background and I found when I got to the Amelia Perez score in general, I was skipping the songs because it was just like, you know, I was listening to it while working and it was just making me very like tense and, uh, aggravated. And maybe that's okay. Cause it's, you know, scores are not written to be listened to in the background while you're working.

[01:30:21] I understand that's not the point of it. Um, but it's just, I found, I find it grating overall and maybe it's just not for me. Uh, again, you're talking about the songs or the scores you find? Both. Both. Because I find, I found the score overall more palatable, but then, you know, in that, that, uh, medley I played for you, there's also the one El Trio in there, which is again, they just, all of them come back to just repeating very simple words and then like having people talk over each other.

[01:30:50] And, um, I just don't, I find it not nearly as interesting as the other scores, not as advanced as the other scores. Yeah. So I know we haven't talked about Meet Camino yet, but Pada for me is probably the highlight of this. I think it's the best song and it doesn't include any of the main characters. It seems to be like, now again, I haven't seen this, but I watched all the songs so that I guess I probably saw a good portion of this film, which is a weird experience by the way, cause I don't really know the story.

[01:31:19] I'm like, Oh, and now for something completely different, I may not have even watched them in the correct order. Um, but that one appears to be, it's, it's the song about the cartel victims and it sort of just seems to be side characters and they can sing well. And it's an interesting song. And there were very few of them. Like, can you give me a melody? Like, can I have some melody or something catchy in your musical theater piece? I think. Ah, yeah. I don't know.

[01:31:47] I don't want to be too much of a hater, but I was not really a fan of most of the songs of this show. No, no. And I do have to say, okay, so let's talk about the second nominated song from this film, which is Mi Camino, as you said, performed by Selena Gomez. And this one, I actually do find quite catchy, but I can see it is, it's still simple, but I find it, I have it stuck in my head after listening to it. So here, here's a bit of it.

[01:32:34] And again, you know, I'm not a fluent Spanish speaker, so I can't comment on the fluency of the lyrics, but I do like the message overall, you know, I choose my own way. Do it my way. But I can see it's not the most musically interesting, but I do find it catchy. So the whole idea of Mi Camino, it's sort of like parallels the journey, one of the other song names. Yeah, it's true. My walk, I guess, sort of would be the literal translation, right? It's kind of a similar idea. My way, my, yeah.

[01:33:03] My, sure, yeah, the path or whatever. I think, I think this is a real song, which, which it has in its favor. I know that's damning a lot of the other, this is a song. Although even that it starts with this weird, is this the most high profile karaoke scene since Justin Theroux singing Bridge Over Troubled Water in that one episode of The Leftovers? If you know, you know, I don't know. It kind of falls flat.

[01:33:31] I think it's, I think Gomez does, sings it fine. She's obviously a talented singer. It's catchy little melody, but that's all it is, right? It just happens and then it's done. It's like her and some guy singing at karaoke and it doesn't sound good. And then it sounds like what you just played for like a minute and it's over. So I'm just sort of like waiting for the reprise of the real song later in the musical and it never happened. So the version on the soundtrack doesn't have that muffled beginning.

[01:34:01] Oh, yeah. If you watch the clip, which I did, it starts with them singing karaoke and I'm kind of like, okay. And it doesn't sound good. They're not good. Karaoke as, as, as would be, you know, realistic. So I don't know that if this is, if these are the favorites, I. Well, Elmo was the favorite of the two, but I don't think it's going to win now. I think, I think it could be Diane Warren's year.

[01:34:27] And I do think that unless people are just like giving Elton John love for the sake of it, I think it's between the journey and like a bird. It's. I mean, I think those are the two that it should be between. I think maybe this is hopeful thinking. It's interesting to think political, sociopolitically, at least in the United States.

[01:34:50] When was the voting and how much do the people doing the voting want to reflect opinions about what's happening in the world right now? And I can see some people feeling like because of representation, this film should work in order to send a message should win. And I could see some people that would also be allies of those same people saying the exact opposite. This film cannot win because of what we want to say about it. So it's really interesting.

[01:35:19] Like, I wonder if people will just dodge the question by not, by not weighing in on this film kind of, and we'll go with something a little more just on the face deserving. Like a bird is a good song from a probably good movie by good performers. They have never won before. Boom. Give it to them or Diane Warren. She deserves it. Give it to her.

[01:35:42] It's just easier than putting your drawing a line in the sand about what might be looked on as toxic in a decade or might be looked upon by certain people as as as wonderful in 10 years. And maybe it's not, you know. People don't want to read the tea leaves possibly right now on this. I don't know. It seems seems tricky. But it got nominated. Two of them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There have been controversial films that have won before.

[01:36:11] You know, we talked about that in the Amelia Perez episode. But I just feel I think especially with Carla's Sofia Gascon's tweets, that whole side of things. Unfortunately, that seems to be the tipping point rather than it being about the actual contents of the movie. It's about her private tweets that are making people shy away from this. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. But then you you look at, OK, when are they voting? Right. When did that happen? Right.

[01:36:41] I don't know. Right. Interesting. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. Well, any final thoughts about any of these songs or scores or Oscars music in general? I thank you for giving me some rooting interest in some context to actually care in the same way that Nicole and I did a Grammy's episode. Mm-hmm. And I very much never watched the Grammy's, even though I am a musician. That is my thing. It's just never been for me.

[01:37:09] But I forced myself to listen to every single Grammy's album at least once. And all the songs, obviously, I'd heard most of them already anyways. And it kind of made me go, well, now I kind of want to know. Did I watch it? I did not watch it. But I was gripped up finding out who would win. And I find myself caring about the Oscar in a way I generally haven't. And so, you know, just my history with the Oscars is it's so different now that I don't live in LA anymore.

[01:37:38] Because of like, I used to, you know, people in my life work in the industry. And so I would get like screeners handed to me because I know people that are voting for Golden Globes or whatever. And so there was this golden age where my wife and I would just, or then at the time, I could say my girlfriend probably realistically would like binge Oscar season and just watch tons of movies or just, and it was just this glorious time where I got to be engaged with it.

[01:38:06] And that's just, that's what I'm doing right now. I compare to, I go to the movies if it's a kid movie and we're all going as a family and I'm catching up like, oh, Dune part two is streaming now. Let me watch it. Right. It's just a totally different sort of world. And so I, I guess that is the way to say thank you for looping me in to force me to listen to some music that, um, with rare exception, I probably wouldn't have heard. Right. Right.

[01:38:33] Well, thank you for taking time out of your busy week to, to talk about this and give your musical insights. This is a, I have to say, I'm more invested in these categories and I've thought more deeply about these categories, these music categories than I have in years. So. Nice. And you helped me develop a new appreciation for brutalist, a movie that I was struggling with. Right. Everybody go, go into your local music school, bring the screwdriver and some nails and hammer

[01:39:02] and, uh, screws and see how long until you get kicked out. And, and pads to, uh, pad your wrists for the handcuffs that are inevitably going to be placed. That's right. Exactly. Right. Well said. All right. Well, thank you so much. And, uh, yeah, we'll, we'll, uh, see who wins, but those, do you have your final picks per category? My picks, not personal, my predictions. Uh, both. Okay.

[01:39:30] I'm just going to say my, my, my hopes because I don't know. I don't know anything about the popular culture. My hope is I'll go like a bird and, uh, brutalist. I think. Okay. Yeah. That's who I'm rooting for. But yeah, I also agree that, um, journey and the journey and conclave are the other. I won't be mad if it's those two. Yeah. I'll only be like mad if it's. Emilia Perez for the songs and I won't be mad, whatever. What do I know?

[01:39:59] No, I mean, yeah, but, uh, yeah. Like, come on people. Come on. Yeah, exactly. Listen to more music. Do better. All right. That's a good note to end on. And yeah, so you'll find, uh, the link in the show notes to nevermind the music to the defying gravity episode. And what else do you have going on? Uh, this, this will be released later this week. Okay. So we have a Dua Lipa episode coming out this week.

[01:40:27] We're talking about levitating, which is, I guess, tangentially related to defying gravity. Wouldn't it be? Um, we're talking about various aspects of, um, how that melody is sort of constructed by a committee, so to speak. But, um, so it's a cool episode. And then, and then next week we'll have a, a sidetrack spun off about some of the crazy things that that song reminds me of.

[01:40:55] So it's a cool one to check out. All right, cool. Well, see you guys all over in the nevermind the music feed and you'll find that again in the show notes. Thanks, Mark. Thanks, Leija. So thank you so much again to Mark. Um, just a couple of notes about our conversation. One is that, uh, it has been confirmed that they used a prepared piano in the Brutalist score.

[01:41:17] I'll link to a little, um, score behind the scenes video that, uh, that they put out on YouTube just today, actually. Um, and also I double checked and Oscar voting ends February 18th. So, uh, well after all of this controversy came out. So, uh, that will definitely play a role in all of that. Um, do also check the show notes for a link to that nevermind the music episode about defying gravity that we talked about.

[01:41:47] And of course you'll find in there links to all of the affiliates. Um, there's a link tree where you can find also my will shift dust, which just wrapped up silo and we're starting dune, uh, the star Wars canon timeline podcast, star Wars in timeline order, radioactive ramblings. Um, they're doing Ghibli and I think they're about to do, uh, cover the new season of invincible and properly. Howard just wrapped up their season and nevermind the music.

[01:42:16] Of course, as for this feed, the next Oscar episode after this one, it's going to be another. Spotlight episode, this time diving into the story and filmmaking of eight time nominee conclave with Marilyn, Anthony and David. And next week, look for more Oscar episodes on the documentary categories on the writing international and live action shorts categories and the tech awards. And in the meantime, check the show notes for links to the Oscar nominated movies.

[01:42:43] We've already done deep dives into plus our previous Oscars coverage this year and last and watch this feed for a new Silmarillion stories to join the star Wars film fest, uh, episode about a new hope that just came out.

[01:42:57] And I think there's also a, um, uh, super cast and patrion subscribers will have access to the extra severance topic, deep dives, which are also available through a separate season pass.

[01:43:18] Um, again, all of that in the link tree, in the show notes, uh, subscribers also look out for this month's second breakfast episode. And also our Lynch episode. It's looking like it's probably going to be a racer head and do join us on discord where there's a special award season channel under current shows, as well as channels for everything else that we're covering and beyond. Um, we definitely want to hear your thoughts on this year's Oscar crop as well.

[01:43:46] And what your other top movies of the year are, it would be awesome. If you could record a voice message about what exactly you loved and why, and then email that to Oscars at the lorehounds.com so that we can include you in the conversation and the episodes to come. And finally, let's dig into the jazz folder to pull out a midnight news, which is the name of this song you're listening to right now. As we close out with a shout out to both our discord server boosters who help us keep all the bells and whistles in our lorehounds clubhouse.

[01:44:16] And then a special shout out to our lore masters, our top tier of subscribers who make it possible for us to spend all this time putting out podcasts with all the specialized software we need and some small compensation for ourselves and co-hosts. Thank you to discord server boosters, Aaron K, Tilla, the thriller, dork of the ninjas, doove 71, Athena, Adjalea, Tina, Lestu, Nancy M, Ghost of Artition, and Radioactive Richard. And thank you to all of our listeners.

[01:45:11] Mothership 61, Narls, Kathy W, Lestu, Jeffrey B, Elisa U, Neil F, Ben B, Scott F, Stephen N, Julia F, Crawley S, Ilmariel, and always last, Adrian. Thank you all so much, and I'll see you tomorrow for a conversation we hope you'll find very popular. The Lorehounds Podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds.

[01:45:39] You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and ad-free access to all Lorehounds Podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening. Hey everyone, David here. Severance is back.

[01:46:09] The Lorehounds are partnering with Properly Howard to bring you in-depth weekly coverage of Season 2. Join me, John, Anthony, and Steve as we unpack every twist, theory, and revelation. We've created a dedicated feed just for our Severance coverage. Simply search for Severance Lorehounds in your podcast app or find the direct link in our link tree.

[01:46:36] Our weekly episodes dig deep into the show's mysteries, themes, and bigger questions about identity and consciousness that make Severance so compelling. Season Pass and regular community subscribers get ad-free access to our weekly episodes, plus exclusive content like our Supply Closet bonus series featuring fascinating conversations with experts like the team from Nevermind the Music.

[01:47:02] We've explored the neuroscience of memory and personality, decoded the hidden meanings in the show's musical themes, and there's much more to come. You'll also get Steve and Anthony's complete Season 1 rewatch series. We believe in total transparency with our listeners. And unlike Mammalians Nurturable, we're happy to share all of our secrets. Find the link for the Severance feed in the show notes below,

[01:47:32] or search Severance Lorehounds wherever you get your podcasts. Come theorize with us about what's really happening at Lumen.