Oscars 2025 – Spotlight: Conclave (2024)

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[00:02:23] Hello and welcome to the Lorehounds Oscars 2025 prep series. I'm Alicia. I'm David. I'm Marilyn. And I'm Anthony. And this is our Spotlight episode dedicated to the eight-time Oscar nominee Conclave from 2024. If you haven't seen the film yet, don't worry. We'll start with some spoiler-free thoughts. Then after a brief ad break and a spoiler warning, we'll jump right into our full spoiler coverage.

[00:02:51] Do check out the teaser episode that David and I did for an overview of how the coverage is going to work this year. Not to mention the episodes on the animated categories and the Emilia Perez controversy that have already been released. You'll find links in the show notes to those, plus all the other films nominated for the 2025 Oscars that we've already done deep dives on. And we want to hear your thoughts on this year's nominees. Which films are you rooting for and why?

[00:03:19] Which films do you think should have been nominated? Voicemails are encouraged, and you can send your emails and voicemails to oscars at thelorehounds.com. So thank you guys for all being here today. This is an episode that's been, well, in the works for months since Conclave released, basically. Indeed. Yeah, pleasure.

[00:03:41] I think this is a good overlap between Oscar coverage and what we would have done maybe for a normal movie one shot. But boy, the end of the last year was pretty busy, wasn't it? Yeah, absolutely. No kidding. I knew that this was going to get a bunch of Oscar nominations. So I was like, oh, well, we're going to have another chance to talk about it. Yeah, good call. So Conclave, the film, is adapted from the 2016 novel by Robert Harris. I don't think any of us have read it. Am I correct in that? I have not. Didn't. I have not.

[00:04:11] Didn't know. Right. Don't know anymore. I'll say I did read a summary of it, basically on the Wikipedia page, just out of curiosity. And it sounds like they stuck quite close to the plot. Like, I really can't eye anything from the summary that really has changed. So it does seem like it's pretty faithful. The log line for anyone who has not seen it, and again, we're keeping this part spoiler free, but just to set it up. After the Pope dies, under potentially mysterious circumstances, the Catholic cardinals from around the world,

[00:04:41] including an unexpected stranger, gather in Vatican City to undergo the formal voting procedures to elect the next Pope. And this was released in November in the States, at least. And it's still in theaters in many places, but it's also available on Peacock or Video On Demand in the U.S. And I have to say, the real first drive, primary drive behind this episode was, Marilyn, you really wanted to talk about this film.

[00:05:11] Absolutely. So tell us why, what about this film for the people who haven't seen it yet and those who have? What about this film? It really stood out to you. I can guess. Well, it was just delightful in every way. Spectacular visuals. It was a feast for the eyes.

[00:05:32] I did some digging around and learned that each cardinal's cross was made specifically for that cardinal as a reflection of their own personality and religious inclination. So, I mean, incredible attention to detail. The fabrics were, in many cases, actually made, created by the fashion designer. And it shows. So, the feast of the eyes. I love the long views that they often give.

[00:06:02] We're looking down corridors. We're looking down staircases. We're looking across courtyards. It's, it's, it's, it. And I don't usually notice these kinds of things. Hanging out with us too much. I know. You guys are really influencing me. You know, I'm, I'm usually pretty plot and visually and orally, you know, the music. I guess the music was great because I never really heard it. Which means it did its job. Yeah. We'll listen to a snippet later. Yeah. Good. No, that's wonderful. That's wonderful.

[00:06:29] I love the way they combine the austerity and the opulence of this ritual that goes way, way, way, way back. These cardinals don't sleep on straw pallets all in one room with locked doors, right? That's what their early medieval ancestors did. And yet, you know, they have to drop off their cell phones in the basket before they can enter. And they each have their own rooms, but they're very simple as is befitting their role.

[00:06:59] Um, so that combination of medieval and modern was set the both and for me and both and is one of my favorite things to think about. So no wonder I was in love with this film from the yet go. Acting superb, uh, characterization superb. Yeah. I'll let others take over about that. So Anthony, you were quick to jump on board when this idea got brought up. Uh, what about this film draws your attention?

[00:07:28] You, of course, have a background in theology. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not an expert on Catholic, uh, polity, uh, but I, uh, I am a religious studies professor. I, um, I totally agree with Marilyn just about the way that this film looks. If you've ever visited St. Peter's, you're just struck by the gorgeous art everywhere.

[00:07:56] I mean, it's like every, every, you can't turn around a corner and not see a world created by an artist. And I felt like this movie kind of tried to, um, it's like every, every cinematic shot feels like a Renaissance painting. And excellent. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. So the other thing I liked about what Marilyn just said was the both and thing.

[00:08:21] This movie is very much about, um, a limit, limitations, borders, and transgressing borders, respecting, you know, while respecting the center and trying to figure out how many of these borders, um, are necessary to keep the structure, uh, intact.

[00:08:43] And, uh, I think it does master really well at holding the tension between those. So if, you know, it, you might've seen things about the controversy of this movie and you might think, well, this is just, you know, progressive, uh, fantasy.

[00:09:03] The, I thought that this, uh, this movie was, um, uh, plausibly a very, very generous reading of the Catholic church. Very friendly at times, very humanizing of, of, uh, of this institution. Um, you, you could easily walk away from this movie with a very conservative reading and, um, you very easily could walk away from it with a very progressive reading.

[00:09:31] And I think both are legitimate readings of the movie, which to me makes it a very intriguing story. Um, I don't necessarily mind that, uh, you know, I, I, I look at this movie as a very well-crafted political thriller. It just happens to be, you know, the setting is Vatican city and not the white house, but, um, I quite enjoyed it. Nice. Yes, absolutely.

[00:10:01] And, and David, what did you think? What's your spoiler free hot take on conclave? Well, I would say that this is, uh, almost perfect lore hounds movie or topic to talk about. We have religion, there's philosophy in here, truth to power stuff. Uh, it's visually beautiful as well as intellectually stimulating.

[00:10:27] So I guess I couldn't, um, couldn't wish for a better group of people to talk about this movie with, uh, you know, anybody from the lore hounds community, but, uh, that, that we get to talk about this movie, I think is, is pretty cool. So I'm, I'm happy with that. Uh, I was struck by the ambition of this movie.

[00:10:43] If you take a step back and you think about the production that they did, all of the extras and the casting and the locations and, uh, a Sistine Chapel-like place that they obviously had to create a set for. Cine Chitta, yeah. The, the rooms, uh, just everything. Uh, it, it, it's a, it is an old time movie of that sort of Cecil Bill de Mill, Cecil, Cecil, what, what, what, now, now I've got his name jammed up in his head.

[00:11:13] Cecil B. de Mill, that's it. Uh, uh, grand sweeping, a cast of thousands kind of thing. And then of course you have some real heavy hitters who are on the, you know, who've, who've passed the apogee of their career, their life and career in movies. Not to say that we're not going to get more stuff, but here are a group of actors who really are just top flight actors. Yeah.

[00:11:42] Uh, uh, every single one of them. And so it brought a lot of, it's just, it just adds to the ambition of the film. Um, I really enjoyed that. This is both a documentary as much as it is a political thriller. There are, there were some beautiful shots of, of all of the different cardinals where they just framed them. You know, they just had them looking at the camera. It was almost like Koyaanaskatsu or something like that, where they're just like showing you these images and you're just reacting to them and seeing all these different cardinals from all over the world.

[00:12:12] That, that was really interesting. The, I was thinking of you, Marilyn, of course. The fascinating look into the culture and ritual around this. Oh yeah. Old institution. Yeah. I was just watching, uh, my daughter has recently discovered Nova on PBS. Ah. And she was watching a docu. I came home the other night from a meeting and she was watching this documentary about the rebuilding of Notre Dame and how they found some coffins down there. And they're trying to, there's a whole, some mysteries and all this stuff.

[00:12:40] And they were talking about the coral screen, the, the big thing that breaks the, uh, I forget all the stations of the cathedral, but, but basically blocks the altar from the view of the, of the congregants. And that's because the mystery transforming the host from, uh, normal bread and wine into, you know, infusing it with the Holy Spirit. We're infusing it with, you know, the essence of God. And that's gotta be this mystery thing.

[00:13:07] And so there's all this mystery around the Catholic church, the, the, even just the ring. I know it's not a spoiler, but like when the previous Pope passes away, like they, there's all this stuff they have to actually manage for his mortal remains. And watching that was so fascinating relative to the, the pomp and circumstance of all these cardinals are just how they preserved his ring and saved it aside.

[00:13:32] And there's like special tools just for this thing that happens once every 30, 40 years. Right. Uh, but there's a culture and there's a process and there's a form that is followed throughout all the thing. And so the documentary aspect of this film was really, really great. Obviously the visually stunning. Um, I, I don't know where we're going to talk about our relative to our best picture noms.

[00:13:56] For me, it was kind of, this is a middle of the pack movie for as much as I loved about it. At time, there was a couple of things that didn't work for me and we'll get into it in the plot and the story. And it was kind of, it kind of reminded me of Maestro a couple of years, the other year where it's like, I'm, we're really trying to be a best picture. It's like, okay, are you trying to be a really good movie or are you trying to be a best picture? And I, and I felt just a twinge of that.

[00:14:22] Uh, but the underlying points of view that the filmmakers and the writers and everybody on this production are, are putting forward about these questions about truth and, and, and power. And then I think more importantly about faith and doubts are really poignant. And obviously the, there's a speech that's given by one of the characters that to me just frames this movie so incredibly. And I think you're going to play a clip, Alicia, after the break. Yes. Yes. Thank you for collecting it for us.

[00:14:52] It's, it's fundamental. And so I think the movie is kind of, I guess, in three parts for me. It's the documentary aspect, which I loved. It's this political theater, uh, thriller, which worked for me on some levels. And then there's a couple of things that, that just didn't work for me. Um, and then there's this tree stay on, on, um, on faith and doubt and power and, and truth.

[00:15:17] Uh, and, um, I, I just found that incredibly fascinating. So absolutely. Can I jump in with one more both and it's history and contemporary society. Yeah. Good point. That as an historian, I, I just, I am amazed. I forgot to mention it, but they, they just keep bumping on that again and again and again.

[00:15:44] And the descriptions that David was giving of these rituals that have gone on for centuries. Um, and the institution, which has gone on for millennia. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. Very, very rich stew. So thanks, Alicia. Yeah. Um, as for my parts, I don't, I see what you mean, David, about it being, you know, something that's going for best picture status, but I don't feel it in the same way I did with Maestro.

[00:16:13] Um, but I think you liked Maestro better than I did. And maybe I like this one slightly better than you do, but, uh, and I would put them both together. I would visually stunning, beautiful, beautiful storytelling, put them way apart from each other. That's just because I didn't really enjoy Maestro. Sure. Yeah. Um, but yeah, in this case, uh, I, I did, I thought about Marilyn a lot while watching

[00:16:38] as I was thinking about, cause I've been fascinated by this whole, the conclave concept, like just the selection of the Pope and the white smoke and the dark smoke. And, you know, um, just the whole process I have found fascinating ever since I learned it existed, I think probably like in a novel somewhere, I forget which one. Um, so that really perked my attention when I saw this movie come out and of course the

[00:17:03] cast and then the visuals, uh, are really, I mean, the acting is great. We're going to talk more about that, but I think the visuals for me were the key. You know, the cinematography, the production design, the costume design, uh, it's rightfully getting attention in these areas. Um, the director is Edward Berger. And I don't know if any of you watched the German all quiet on the Western, uh, front that came out a couple of years ago.

[00:17:33] Uh, no, I didn't see it. The, there wasn't that a best picture nom. It was, it was, it ended up, it was, I got nine nominations and, um, four. Four wins. It didn't get best picture. It got best international though. Uh, and it, yeah, it did quite well that season. And we were just actually talked about it because, um, the soundtrack beat out everything, everywhere, all at once is soundtrack. Oh, and it has this like characteristic like, and apparently they used a harmonium for it,

[00:18:02] which, uh, silo watchers will know what a harmonium is after this season. Um, we had, uh, we have theremin in another television show just the other night. Oh, but I can't say anything about it because I don't want. Oh yeah. Oh, okay. Right. I have a guess. Well, we, yeah, we'll talk more about this score, but we have, uh, an even more unusual instrument, uh, that we'll talk about crystal that you play wet, but yeah. Um, it is funny.

[00:18:28] So I think Edward Berger just has a really profound visual language in both of these films and, you know, the way he works with the cinematographer to, uh, have this, the camera do these smooth sweeping shots that, uh, amplify the action without feeling trite. There's another film that came out recently that I did not like the cinematography for the brutalist is nominated for that. And I feel like this handled it so much better. Yeah.

[00:18:58] But yeah, Anthony, you were saying, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, I thought that everything was so carefully put together. I felt like, I don't know. It was just in terms of the sound design and the, the, the pace of the dialogue and the progression of the plot and the music and the visual.

[00:19:26] I think that the, the visual aspect of this movie fits as a piece with, with this. It's, it's just a well put together. Um, I guess I would say middle range movie, you know, there's, you know, there's no giant set piece or, you know, uh, there's, there's, there's no one flying around the room or shooting lasers out of their fingers.

[00:19:53] Uh, you know, there's, there's no, I don't know. It, it, it feels like a movie that could have been made 30 years ago and, um, and, and sort of just stand on its own. It's like these middle range movies have kind of gone away. We either have these billion dollar productions or we have these tiny little independent films and they both have a place.

[00:20:18] But this conclave is exactly the kind of movie that I feel like, uh, doesn't really have happened as much anymore. Yeah. I think that was a deliberate choice. That in doing that, they're almost adding on a layer of historicity to the thing. And then they dropped their cell phones in the basket, you know, you had this reminder. Oh, okay. Yeah. This is a contemporary film. I mean, I think it's also the fact that, um, Edward Berger, he's German.

[00:20:47] So he's just used to not working with the big Hollywood budget per se and making the budget stretch. So the budget for this film was 20 million. And are you serious? Yeah. That is nothing. I know. And today it's earned 92 and counting because it still is in theaters and a lot of places. This for 20 million, they did an amazing job. Yeah. I can't believe that given the, as I say, the attention paid to the costumes and the prop. Wow.

[00:21:16] That's, that's pretty stunning. It is the kind of movie where it's just a lot of men in room talking, right? So it's like, it does, I mean, the politics of it are, uh, you know, intriguing enough that, you know, you're kind of wrapped. Uh, there was a moment toward the end of the film where my wife said, oh, it's like the church meeting that will never end. She's not wrong.

[00:21:44] But so there is that aspect of it, right? It's, it's, uh, but I, I don't know. I guess once you're in, you're in, uh, with this one. Well, and being familiar with church meetings, if you don't know all the undercurrents, yeah, they can be very boring. But, um, if you are trying to create the undercurrents, that, that has a whole new layer of experience to the thing. If your intention is to burn the thing down. Yeah. Well, or to prop it up as it totters into whatever.

[00:22:14] I mean, it just depends on how you see it. Yeah. Yeah. I love a good political detention story. And, um, so the writer is, is Peter Strahan, who he was previously nominated. He's nominated this year for an Oscar. He was previously nominated for Tinker Tank, Tinker Taylor soldier spy. And he also did, he did Frank, which is his weird little movie. I personally love. And he did gold punch and a bunch of other stuff. Um, I guess. Yeah.

[00:22:41] And it was, by the way, it was distributed by black bear in the UK focus features in the U S, um, it's got good scores on rotten tomatoes, 93% from critics, 86% from audiences on Metacritic 79, um, over 6.6 from audiences. And it's now been nominated for eight Oscars. So yeah. So best picture, uh, lead actor for Ralph Fiennes.

[00:23:07] And this is his third nomination after Schindler's list and the English patient. So it's been a while. Wow. Yeah. Uh, supporting actress Isabella Rossellini. And this is her first nomination. Wow. Wow. Adapted screenplay. Original score by Volker Bertelman, who he did win an Oscar in 2022 for all quiet, um, film editing, which was done by Nick Emerson production design, uh, which is Susie Davey, some production design.

[00:23:36] She did salt burn hard truths that came out this year. Next year is the thing with the feathers, a whole bunch of other stuff. Set decoration by Cynthia Slater and costume design by Lisey Crystal. And this is her second nomination after 2011's Shakespearean movie anonymous. Mm-hmm. She was unbelievable. Yeah. Just unbelievable. I saw one of those little shorts, you know, about the background of the film kind of thing.

[00:24:03] And I'm, you know, my jaw was on the floor most of the time for what she did. Yeah. And, and it shows. Yeah. Yeah. That she really went to the local, the people who actually make the clothes for, uh, the clergy in Vatican city and really learned from them. And they, yeah, they had a cardinal, uh, advising them as well. And yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, David, to whom would you recommend this movie? Oh, uh, let's see.

[00:24:33] Let me think through here. I enjoy cinema for what cinema is. Hmm. Somebody who, uh, is intellectually curious and be there, be that in philosophy or religion or history. I mean, I think there's, there's things on offer for all of that.

[00:24:55] And then I think, uh, like Anthony said, uh, it's a talking movie and they do a really good job of creating dramatic tension. Uh, but it is a, um, yeah, it is not an action movie. So, so, you know, if, if, but it is riveting, like you are really held in place visually as well as, uh, emotionally with the dramatic tension.

[00:25:21] So I, I think anybody who really appreciates the craft of cinema would like this as well as anybody who's, uh, intellectually curious about some of these topics. Yeah. Okay. Anything you would add Anthony? Yeah. I don't know if everyone's going to love this movie. I, there is, there is an aspect of it that, uh, might be alienating to some people.

[00:25:46] And, um, I, I would completely respect someone who walked away from this movie and was like, uh, they, they were trying to say something and they missed. Hmm. Um, but I don't necessarily need to agree with the political message of a movie I enjoy. So, uh, I think as a film, as a political thriller, I enjoyed it.

[00:26:13] Um, if, if this movie could offend. And so, uh, yeah, it could, it could offend and I could, it definitely could offend, um, people of various political persuasions. And so it's possible that, that this film isn't going to strike the same kind of chord. Um, but again, I don't, I don't feel like I need to agree with the movies that I enjoy. So.

[00:26:44] Hmm. Okay. And Marilyn would, other than, you know, potentially being offensive to, um, groups of people who disagree with the political message. Um, is there any other content warnings you would add? Would you, would you place this as like a zero on the pequila scale? Yeah, I think so. Um, I, I really had to search hard to think, okay, violent incidents. Well, yes. Um, anyway, but.

[00:27:12] The nature of them were not, I'll just say, you know, not one-on-one is the best way I can put it. It's really interesting to characterize it as a political thriller, which it absolutely is. But for anybody with any kind of sense of, I don't know, um, religious or spiritual, um, belief practice, whatever, I think it's really, really engaging.

[00:27:41] Yeah. On that level. Yeah. And I realized that's something of a minority perspective. And it, as Anthony said, it could be engaging as an, oh my gosh, what have they done to the other extreme of this is fabulous. Yeah. Because of the way they represent religious experience, you know, from the full spectrum of complete belief to, um, you know, complete doubt, uh, using it for, uh, purposes other

[00:28:11] than spiritual, uh, uplift and support. Uh, so it, it raises a lot of these things, but I think the way it ends, if you're coming at it from that perspective is it, well, to me, it was utterly satisfying and, um, wonderful. Did you all see the movie silence? No, no. Okay. That was a Scorsese movie from about 10 years ago. And it was, uh, it was a historical period. It was a period piece.

[00:28:38] And, uh, I kind of feel like this movie in a weird way is in conversation in terms of tonality with that other movie. Uh, so if you liked silence, you might enjoy this. If you liked this movie, you might enjoy silence. Uh, so I, it's a Scorsese film also kind of with a angled perspective on the Catholic church. Okay.

[00:29:06] I'd say anybody who, anybody who loves spectacular visuals, who loves being intrigued, who loves a mystery, cause it's also a mystery story in many respects. Um, yeah. Anyone who loves history, uh, you know, and is interested in religion for whatever reason. I think anybody who fulfills any of those categories would, would really be into this film. I haven't yet, but I want to eventually start searching for, um, the church's reaction to this film just to see.

[00:29:35] I'd be very curious to know, uh, if there has been and if there has what they have to say. Yeah. There, I mean, I did actually, I went down a YouTube rabbit hole. Uh, of course you did. And, you know, there's been a range of responses and it's basically what you would expect. The more progressive a sector of the church it is, the more they embrace this movie, the more conservative.

[00:30:00] Um, there was one conservative video that I listened to for quite a while because they didn't, you know, open with, uh, the word woke. And so I was just curious about the perspective and then, you know, it comes down to what you would expect, which is difficult to talk about without getting into spoilers. So sure. Shall we? Um, I, I just wanted to tack on to one thing that Marilyn had mentioned in regards to,

[00:30:27] you know, um, how this movie may affect people and how it may affect people or, or, uh, how, how people who have a religious practice, a faith based practice, but also if you are a religious, if you are not somebody who is religious. And, and I think this goes back to my other comment, which was intellectually curious. If you were intellectually curious at all, there is a bedrock of this movie that is profound

[00:30:56] and it asks a central question about us, a particular word. I'm not going to say it cause I, it's, it, because that word really, I think does, is the pivot of the movie. Um, and it really made me think I, I, for days after I'm not practicing, I was raised Christian in the Presbyterian, uh, tradition, but I'm not currently practicing of anything. And I've, you know, studied and looked at very, you know, whatever.

[00:31:22] But even as somebody who doesn't have an active practice, I was very moved, uh, at that human spiritual level. Yes. Good, David. Excellent. I've been blessed by Marilyn. He's my child. Bless you, my brother. Yes. All right. On that note, we're going to take a quick pause. And when we come back, we are unleashing the spoilers. So beware. And yeah, you can watch us at home now. So go and watch it. Come back.

[00:31:52] Listen to the rest. See you in a sec. Let me speak from the heart for a moment. St. Paul said, be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.

[00:32:18] To work together and to, uh, to grow together, we must be tolerant. No one person or faction seeking to dominate another. And speaking to the Ephesians, who were, of course, a mixture of Jews and Gentiles, Paul reminds us that God's gift to the church is its variety.

[00:32:43] It is this variety, this diversity of people and views which gives our church its strength. And over the course of many years in the service of our mother, the church, let me tell you, there is one sin which I have come to fear above all others. Certainty. Certainty is the great enemy of unity. Certainty.

[00:33:11] Certainty is the deadly enemy of tolerance. Even Christ was not certain at the end. Dio mio, Dio mio, perché mi hai abandonato? He cried out in his agony at the ninth hour on the cross. Our faith is a living thing precisely because it walks hand in hand with doubt.

[00:33:34] But if there was only certainty and no doubt, there would be no mystery and therefore no need for faith. Let us pray that God will grant us a pope who doubts. And let him grant us a pope who sins and asks for forgiveness and who carries on. So, David.

[00:34:06] David, thank you for insisting that we start the second half on this. It was you, David. Thank you. And I noticed, you know, you are clearly enjoying this as a piece of spoken word. Do you want to talk more about that? Well, there's a performative level of finds. The tonality of his voice, the warmth of his voice. His whole character as being the dean of the college, right?

[00:34:35] Being the sort of chief administrative guy trying to herd all of these cats, so to speak, and make sure that the thing rolls off. But then when he – and this is intellectually a concept I never thought about before until it's brought up by this movie. And again, this is where of the three parts of this movie for me, this is one of the parts that really works, which is this idea of certainty.

[00:35:05] And how it's the enemy of unity and it's the enemy of tolerance. And I was like, oh, it just kind of intellectually rocked me that we're all – so much of our human condition is striving for certainty. Why are we – so in a lot of our stories and mythologies, why is it always about prescience and being able to tell the future? And why do we put place such an importance on the past?

[00:35:33] It's because we're trying to protect ourselves from the future or shape a future in which we can be safe and not get eaten by various things or just all the things, right? And at least in my own – it's interesting because I'm just coming to this thought now.

[00:35:54] Even in my own personal history with religion and the idea of faith, I've personally never felt driven by the need for certainty that there is going to be a hereafter, that I'm going to get something for doing something, right? I just – it's never been a motivator for me as far as I can remember.

[00:36:16] I certainly – community and the idea of being part of a group, fellowship, all of those things are all very moving to me. But this idea that there's a certainty that there is something beyond and that there is something that is promised and is going to be delivered has never driven me.

[00:36:41] And I can look out into the world today and see that a lot of what is driving people is this demand for certainty, this desire for certainty, the certainty that I am right, that I am standing on the truth and you are not and I'm certain about that. And so when he says the line, be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ, you can be Christian, you cannot be Christian.

[00:37:10] It doesn't matter. There's a central message there which is be subject to one another. Mm-hmm.

[00:37:45] You know, whatever. This to me is the heart of the movie. Right. And if it had been something – if this had not been there, yeah, it would have been great. And I don't know that it would have been a Best Picture nomination for me. Mm-hmm. Visually beautiful, you know, great actors, great – I mean really compelling story. If you had just done a straight line thing about this political machinations of who's trying to get themselves to be the next pope, great, fun, entertaining movie, I would have enjoyed it.

[00:38:18] Mm-hmm. It's a whole other level of a movie for me. Right. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I'm an agnostic so I operate off of uncertainty because I feel like – well, I mean I just – I know the deeper you dig into any topic, science particularly, the more you realize you have to live with uncertainty because we just do not have the capability of knowing everything at this point.

[00:38:47] But, yeah, I should set up that – so Ralph Fiennes, who we just heard speaking, he plays Cardinal Thomas Lawrence and he's a British liberal and he's dean of the College of Cardinals. So it's his job to basically oversee this conclave, to select the new pope. And this is one change from the book that I did notice. I think this is an Italian character in the book. But if you have Ralph Fiennes, I say cast him and make him British.

[00:39:14] And, yeah, there's a lot of – Anthony, we have at the heart of this these different factions within this – within the Catholic Church. How would you lay out these factions? And do you think, based on your knowledge, that this is accurate? Yeah. I mean there's always going to be factions, right? Oh, yeah. Human's going to human.

[00:39:43] It's not always going to be so neatly divided, right? I think that the dividing line between progressives and Catholics at this level of the hierarchy is going to be much more conservative than, let's say, you know, a faculty meeting at a university. Right?

[00:40:04] It's like, you know, the dividing line between your side and my side is just going to be in a different part of the spectrum there. I do remember, like, driving around – I was driving around with a friend who is sort of a newly converted Catholic.

[00:40:25] And I remember him saying – like, voicing some dissent over the, you know, Pope Francis' sort of progressive moves. And I was asking about that. It's like, so you're a new Catholic, so you aren't happy with the Pope? That seems like an odd thing for a new Catholic to be unhappy.

[00:40:46] And he said, no, there's a lot of us that lean conservative that feel like this Pope doesn't necessarily represent our views. And so it's very much the same – it's almost the same political divides that you find in any culture you can also find in the conclave. And so I don't know how much this – how well this represents what actually would happen at a conclave.

[00:41:15] But I do know that there are certain Catholics that would absolutely like to go back to the Latin liturgy. And they would absolutely like a hard stance on no birth control. And they would absolutely – on a hard stance on gender discussions. And then you've got people in the Catholic Church that lean toward the Stanley Tucci side of things.

[00:41:41] And I thought – so that, in other words, I think that this film may say something more about contemporary politics for, like, the general populace. This film might reflect our own political divides more so than necessarily represent the kinds of conversations that would happen at a conclave meeting. But for me, it works. For me, it works.

[00:42:09] And so even if it may be an exaggeration of these – or maybe a cinematic reorientation of these conversations, I think that you absolutely can find Catholics on many, many sides of these issues. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:42:27] So we have – in this movie, in the book it's based on, each of the factions has their sort of leader that they're putting forward, that they're all voting for, and they hope to become the next pope to represent their interests. So you mentioned Stanley Tucci plays Cardinal Aldo Bellini, and he's an American liberal, and he was the early favorite. Well, we're on the spoiler side of things. Doesn't end up going his way. We have John Lithgow as Cardinal Joseph Tremblay.

[00:42:58] He's a Canadian moderate, and he's – he kind of – I love John Lithgow, by the way, as an actor. I love Stanley Tucci, too, by the way. But there was something about Cardinal Tremblay that just gave me the ick the whole movie. Did you guys find that as well? Well, he is the – he's sort of the master of the ick. John Lithgow is a perfect – Yeah, he certainly is. Perfect. He was the no-dancing preacher in the movie Footloose.

[00:43:27] So this is – Oh, right. He's got a long history of playing these roles. Interesting. So anyway, I think that he's a perfect – he's the perfect person to cast, if you want. Yeah. A Cardinal with a little bit of ick. Yeah, it just felt like he was always trying to maneuver his way into something and like – Oh, yeah. Between and – Yeah. I almost had more respect for – so we had a popular Nigerian candidate who was conservative,

[00:43:54] was Cardinal Joshua Adeyemi, played by Lucien Masmati. And he – like I almost respected his directness more. But then, of course, he gets involved in a scandal with a nun who it turns out he had impregnated when she was 19 a while ago. Well, yeah. It's revealed that he was – he was almost a predator back in the day. Right.

[00:44:20] But I think that this has softened a little bit for the movie because they could have gone any number of ways with this sort of predatory sexual nature, right? I really did wonder about that. Yeah. You know, the one unspoken cloud hanging over all this, of course, is the ongoing history of priestly abuse. Yeah, and I think it's name-checked. Like they mention it in the film in passing. They do.

[00:44:48] But I think that that was one of the things that kind of made my wife reluctant to see it. Okay. Because I went – as soon as it was out, I was like at the theater. But I was watching it alone because I think it was like, okay, it's a movie about political scandal in the Catholic Church. Immediately her mind went to, I don't want to deal with the heavy topic of child abuse. Right. And I kind of knew that it wasn't going to be about that.

[00:45:16] But I didn't feel like it could. But going in, I think maybe people could be a little bit reluctant to see it if they don't want to deal with that heavy topic. Right. Anyway, with Cardinal Ademini – is that how you say his name? Adiemi, I think. Adiemi. It does present him as this is a good man who made a mistake long ago. Mm-hmm.

[00:45:45] But I did enjoy the fact that Cardinal Lawrence, played by Ralph Fiennes, he says, no, no, no. You weren't both young. She was young. Yeah. She was 19 and you were in your 30s. You're not entirely – this is not like a mistake you made back in the day. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah.

[00:46:14] It's not just like we're two young people and just taken with the passion of our service and what have you and we had an indiscretion. This is a 15-year difference. Yeah. But the thing that – Which is okay when it's not like in a sort of predatory way like it feels like this was. But it's a power – that's a power relationship. It's a power imbalance. For sure it is. It could never possibly be an equal relationship.

[00:46:36] But that conversation also reveals Lawrence's imperfections as well because the thing that disqualifies Adiemi for the papacy is not that he was a predator once upon a time. It's that it's going to come out. And the church does not need your scandal. Right. So he's – at the end of the day, he's very – like you said earlier, David, he's very much a manager.

[00:47:06] Mm-hmm. You know? Absolutely. So it's – in that moment, he's playing the role of spiritual guide kind of. He's playing sort of the dean of the college kind of. But he's trying to manage a possible political scandal in the future, which has all these undertones, rightly so, because the Catholic Church has been embroiled in predatory behavior. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:35] And, of course, we do see the pope, the previous pope before he dies. And there's all these intimations that Lawrence is close to him. And yet the pope has been gathering dossiers. Yeah. On everybody. So what does that say about political machinations versus spiritual whatever? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:56] Well, and I think that this whole movie is fascinating in that regard because especially with Lawrence's character being like, no, you guys, you misunderstand. I don't want it. And then at some point he has to or, you know, all of them. Or when Adeemi's character goes through the, like, grieving of letting go of this long-held thing is that these are human beings in seeking power.

[00:48:26] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But at the same time seeking power for what? For service to humanity? Mm-hmm. For service to, you know, to these ideals that Christianity and the Roman Catholic Church are putting forward. And obviously, yeah, the church has a lot of mixed – there's good and there is bad within the church's history, obviously.

[00:48:53] But yet these men are – men are driven by power and the need for power. And I think when Adeemi gives up power and the grieving process that he has to go through, really – and then when Lawrence goes, okay, well, my – I forget what he said his papal name would be. But he – and he reveals it to Stanley Choochie's character. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. John. Yes. John. One more John.

[00:49:20] So you get this sense of – and then, of course, what actually ends up happening with who they choose is not somebody who wanted it. And so that whole conundrum of, well, yeah, it's human politics, period. It doesn't matter. Even though we're in the service of something greater, we're still driven by these things. Yeah. Can I challenge that a little bit? Please. Of course. All right.

[00:49:47] So that was, to me, the most interesting theme of the movie was that – number one, I was struck by how sympathetic these men were for all of their flaws. It really does humanize these men. The movie did not have to do that. And most of these men, you kind of feel like I could have a beer with these guys, right?

[00:50:09] You know, I could go back and, like, you know, suck on a dart and, you know, put out my cigarette butts on the marble floor with these guys. So there is that aspect of it. I do – the thing that was most interesting to me about this movie was that there are good people everywhere. Like, you can find good people everywhere. Even in Vatican City, you can find good people.

[00:50:36] And yet, none of these good people are immune to the seduction of power. Well, they're in a system of power. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They have the system going. Sorry, say again? They have this system in place, which they are charged to uphold, and it is a system of hierarchy. Yeah. And that's the same with local politics, right? Absolutely.

[00:51:01] That's the same with anyone who wants to be mayor or the chair of the board at their local, you know, whatever. You go to any school board meeting. These are all the same little bits of human depravity. And at the end of the day, of course, you know, we first find out Aldo doesn't really want it. You know, I know in my heart I don't want it. Of course he wants it. Lawrence, you know, does Lawrence – oh, I haven't thought of a name.

[00:51:30] I haven't thought of a name. You know, I would never – of course he wants it deep down. Of course they do. And so I think if that is what the movie is trying to teach me, then on some level, of course, Benitez wants it on some level too, right? He may be a cardinal in secret, but he's a cardinal of the church. Mm-hmm. And he – in fact, he may be the more extreme member of this church. He's got a mission in Kabul. I mean –

[00:52:00] Yeah. You're telling me that this guy is immune from all of – his papal name is going to be Innocence. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. But at the end of the day, the movie's already told me that even a good man can be seduced by power. And of course, you know, I'm drawn back to the one ring, you know, in all of these – Oh, yeah. Oh, there's – believe me, I could look at this through the lens of Tolkien. Yeah. I would have a lot to say. Yeah. Another Catholic scholar along the way. Yes. Absolutely.

[00:52:30] So anyway, I would say that – I agree with a lot of what you're saying, David. I would say that at the end of the day, I don't know how innocent Innocence is, you know? Okay. Well, his speech is the turning point, isn't it? Right. Right. And I have to believe that it is coming from a place of truth. Right. And there is a reason why he doesn't want it, which we haven't talked about yet. I'll just count – I'll just modify my argument slightly, I guess.

[00:53:00] It's not that – because all men covet it, right? We're going sort of Tolkien-ish, right? We cannot – the ring. And even there's the whole scene with the ring where they take the pope's ring off his finger and it's like, oh my god. So we're – Rolls and falls into a river, right? That's a different story. And Gollum was creeping around in a corner somewhere.

[00:53:24] Benitez is the only one of them who hasn't engaged in prior – Mackinac. You know, he's not maneuvering. He came in with no allies and with nothing but himself or all the others. He's less corrupted by the institution, right? Right. Because he's been – the further removed from power. Right. Yeah. Right. He has not been around, bro. Sorry. Let's take a step back and set up who these people are. So first of all – Wait, wait.

[00:53:53] You want to pull us back? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure there are people who are lost at home who may not have watched. Absolutely, of course. So let's just set it up for them real quick. Sure. So the fourth faction, by the way, is the Italian traditional faction. And that is with Cardinal Tedesco, played by Sergio Castellito. And we'll come back to him because he has one of the funniest movies in – one of the funniest moments in the movie.

[00:54:20] But, yeah, he infuriated me most of the time other than that when he made me laugh. Oh, I thought he was delightfully hilarious. Yeah. Brilliant performance. Yeah. Brilliant performance. And then the person that you keep talking about, Cardinal Benitez, is played by Carlos Dees. And this is a cardinal – this is the mystery person. You know, we set that up in the beginning. This is the mystery cardinal who shows up. And we find out he's Mexican, but he's working in Afghanistan.

[00:54:49] And because of that, he was made a cardinal in pectore. And what does that mean, Anthony? It means in the heart. And it suggests that there are things that the pope hasn't told anyone. Oh, yeah. So they are absolutely – you know, they would hold up in any kind of papal setting. But the pope hasn't told everyone everything that's in his heart.

[00:55:16] And in this case, this guy is a secret cardinal just because the pope decided he was a secret cardinal. Right. And on the topic of cardinals, like actually it's bishops. They are supposed to say, I do not wish to be a bishop three times before they are consecrated as a bishop. Oh, interesting. And I kept thinking about that again and again with all this, oh, I don't want it, I don't want it. But yeah, my name is John. Yeah.

[00:55:44] And it's the old, the person who doesn't want it is the one most qualified. Right. Yeah. Right. And let us just get rid of the whole men thing because I don't agree with Tolkien. We are humans. Mm-hmm. And there are women in this power structure too. Yeah. Yes. And they serve a very important role. And yeah. So do you want to talk about that role?

[00:56:06] So in the face of that role, there are a bunch of sisters of nuns in the background, but the leader of the nuns that are there sort of serving the cardinals during this conclave are a sister, Agnes, played by Isabella Rossellini. And so this is the other acting nomination this film got. She's the cardinals head caterer and housekeeper. And yeah, what would you say about the role of women in this film? They're everywhere, but they're silent.

[00:56:35] And I think there's one scene in particular, I emphasize this point. There's no dialogue or whatever. You just see a courtyard and you see in twos and threes and fours, the sisters coming out from presumably their sleeping quarters and going to start the day. They clean the rooms, they make the food, they clean up after the food, all of this kind of thing. They are everywhere. And as Sister Agnes says, we have eyes and we have ears.

[00:57:03] And this is just a magnificent moment. And the tension when she is being questioned by Lawrence and then later on, of course, the nun herself who was abused by that cardinal. How do you enact power within a structure that does not allow you any kind of power at all?

[00:57:29] Well, there are always ways because humans want to have agency in their lives. It's not just men. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was using men specifically, at least. I heard your capital ammo. Yeah, yeah. Okay, good. Humans, humans. Yeah. Well, and that's an interesting point because this is a group of men, but do humans covet power? Yes, we humans covet power. Absolutely. For a whole variety of reasons. Absolutely. It does not have to be universally power over. Right, exactly.

[00:57:58] Power is the ability to affect change. Right. Power with and empowerment. Right. And this was a brilliant moment of Sister Agnes using her power, which nobody gave her. She empowered herself. Right. To say, here's some truth, and I'm speaking truth to power. Yeah, and then she does this curtsy that steals the movie, which is sort of, you know, because the curtsy is a subservient act, but this was not a subservient curtsy. Oh, no. Oh, no.

[00:58:28] And then that's when we get the other funniest moment from Tedesco, where he just sucks on his vape, like, hmm. My entire theater broke out in laughter. Yeah, there are some surprisingly funny moments in this film. And I think any good storytelling that is dealing with big topics, heavy topics, confronting,

[00:58:55] challenging topics, dramatic tension, characters in conflict, you need a little bit of humor because it's naturally present in our life. But from a storytelling standpoint, it's the whipped cream or it's the ice cream on your pie, right? Mm-hmm. It helps to lubricate and move us through those spaces. We need the dramatic tension. We need to climb down every once in a while and divert our emotional life momentarily so

[00:59:22] that then we can take that breath and then move forward. So any good story that's dealing at, you know, it's taken big swings at things, a little bit of humor goes along, in my opinion. Yeah. And you need that refuge as well. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Take that breath. And there are two big speeches that are the two turning points of this film. One is the speech we played by Cardinal Lawrence at the beginning.

[00:59:49] And then you guys already brought up the second speech, which was by Cardinal Benitez. And this is when things really shift in his favor. Well, yeah, we'll get to the ends at the end, but this is when it becomes clear that he's going to be the one elected. The words are, so basically there was an anti-Muslim speech from a conservative cardinal and Benitez stands up and says at the church meeting that never ends, Benitez stands up and says,

[01:00:17] Christian and Muslim, would you say we have to fight? What is it you think we're fighting? No, my brother. The thing you're fighting is here inside each and every one of us. If we give in to hate now, if we speak of sides instead of speaking for every man and woman, forgive me, but these last few days have shown ourselves to be small, petty men. We have seemed concerned only with ourselves, with Rome, with these elections, with power. But things are not the church. The church is not tradition.

[01:00:47] The church is not the past. The church is what we do next. Yeah. Yeah. And I love the way he prefaced that whole thing by saying to the cardinal who was calling for a holy war, you don't know war. You don't know what a war is. I do. I have lived in the middle of one. Right. And I thought that was the moment when everybody really focused in on this previously basically unknown and said, okay, here we go. Yeah.

[01:01:17] I wish I had my clip library working because then I would throw in the Star Wars clip about hate and hate leads to violence. I will note that I've heard that- Yeah, fear. Fear leads to hate. Fear leads to hate. Fear leads to violence. In terms of one of the major differences with the book, I learned that the book does a lot more with the political violence that is happening around the city. Yes. Which we haven't mentioned at all yet, have we?

[01:01:47] Right. It almost gets kind of sidelined in this movie, but it does create the platform to discuss Christian-Muslim relations.

[01:02:01] And in this particular, I guess, I haven't read the book, but I've heard that the book does a lot more talking about various political bombings that have happened around, not just the city of Rome, but globally. And of course, these men are from everywhere, right? So, to me, I don't know if that's necessary for the movie.

[01:02:31] Yeah. I can see why they cut it. Yeah. It did. There's this moment where, I don't want to jump the gun here, but there is a moment where you almost feel like the bomb is the voice of God. There's a couple moments where there's like an earthquake functions as the voice of God and then a bomb busts a window high above, letting in a shaft of light.

[01:03:00] You almost have a stand in for the voice of God there. So, I don't know if the movie needed those things, but it could be that the speech about accepting other faiths doesn't have quite the potency without that platform. Well, I also think it's a visual representation of what you were talking about from the books, show, don't tell. Yeah.

[01:03:29] And it was a shocking moment when you want to talk about the violence scale. Wasn't it when Lawrence was going to vote for himself? Yes. Yes. And then the window blows out because there's a bomb in the square. The image of this, because it's been so contained, it's been so perfectly organized and structured and the world busts in in a very violent fashion. Or God busts in, depending on how you view it, right? Yeah, you're right about the shaft of light and the way it falls on his face. Yeah.

[01:03:58] And he was looking before at like a devil figure in the paintings on the walls. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's take another quick pause. And when we come back, we're going to talk more about the filmmaking side and the ending of this film. Be right back.

[01:04:31] So the cinematography was done by Stéphane Fontaine. And I just thought that it just combined so well with there's a clip you can find on YouTube from the editor and just how the editor was told to leave the shots as long as possible. And again, I just think this is something, this film did this so much better than The Brutalist, where you have the reason why you can leave the shot so long is because the cinematographer is doing interesting things with the camera.

[01:05:00] The way it's like sweeping around the characters to sort of keep this urgent feeling, even though they are, as you guys say, men talking in a room at the endless church meeting.

[01:05:13] Well, and that's where I go back to my comment about if you are a devotee of movies and the craft and art of cinema, then this is a great movie because it's using these techniques to aid in the storytelling and to move the storytelling forward. And it is. It's a really, really hard thing to do.

[01:05:38] And this is where I think from a plot point, there's a couple of things that just didn't quite work for me. Oh, finding the papers behind the headboard. Like that was like, oh, now we're getting into kind of a, I get it. I don't disagree with it. But it was like, oh. And then we can maybe talk about Benita's reveal at a later point.

[01:05:58] But I kind of, I'm kind of wandering here, but just the idea that this is a movie, capital M, and it is doing movie specific things by using camera in this way. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Because the stuff about like finding the stuff in the headboard, that's definitely from the book. Right.

[01:06:19] But then even if it's quite faithful to the story, how do you translate that in a way to screen that's not, that's more lively considering it is conversation-based cinema. Right. And I think, if I might digress slightly into this particular topic too of finding the papers, oh, he sits down in the chair in the right place to see the little things poking out. And I was just like, okay, this is kind of trite.

[01:06:45] This is just kind of what a murder mystery, political theory, mystery, born identity sort of thing does is the main character happens to stumble across the particular clue that then unravels the entire mystery. And so to me, I guess the mechanic was just mundane from that regard when everything else about this movie is exceptional. Yeah. And so I was just kind of like, huh. The two things that – I was okay with it.

[01:07:12] And the reason why was, number one, like you said, it is an homage to the form, right? Yeah. You know, it really does kind of feel like a procedural. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where like, you know, you start with the murder and then, you know, it's going to be revealed that there's treachery at the end. But then that was subverted because we don't actually find out that the last pope was murdered, right? Right. Right. That's right. There's that part of it.

[01:07:36] But then the other thing is I thought, I think that the former pope didn't want to hide that very carefully. I think – I feel like maybe he – You wanted it to be found. He – yes. Yeah. It was hidden in such a way that even if you started snooping just for a couple minutes, you were going to find it, right? Mm-hmm. So that's kind of how I justified it in my mind. Got it. Like I said, I don't disagree with it, but I also just kind of was like, meh. Yeah. It followed the forms.

[01:08:05] Well, it's also – Go ahead. Please. I was just going to say it's also this darkness of the decor there that kind of made it stick out, which was – So this film was mostly filmed at Cinecitta, which is – it just – I mean, Cinema City, it's like the largest film studio in Rome. And they have – of course, they have Sistine Chapel replica there because you can't actually film there. You can't plant a bomb in the Sistine Chapel.

[01:08:35] Yeah, exactly. What? Yeah. No. I mean – I went to the Sistine Chapel once. It was the worst physical experience that I've ever had. Because it's so crowded. The flow of humanity and getting into that space and it was just like – it was an – now that I reflect on it, it's an interesting thing. Same thing with the Mona Lisa. It's just this mob of people around the Mona Lisa. Or at – in Bethlehem at the Church of the Nativity going down to see the thing.

[01:09:04] I almost saw a fist fight break out in front of people – in the line of people trying to get down to the thing. Yeah, yeah. Which is brilliantly ironic. But yeah, it's just such a human thing. We might have been there at the same time because I started a fist fight. There weren't any fist fights when I was there. Oh, okay. But I saw someone online who said maybe it's better to tour the Cinecita rather than the actual Sistine Chapel. Yeah, exactly.

[01:09:33] Right, exactly. You see basically what it looks like. But so that – they did great care to replicate the Sistine Chapel there. But then they took a lot of artistic license with where they were staying, the Domus Santi Marte, because – well, they found the real thing. They did take a look at it. They found it to be boring. Yes.

[01:09:52] And they wanted to make it more that – add that stark modernity that Marilyn was talking about and make it more prison-like to sort of heighten the tension in the scenes. Yeah, it did feel cold to me. Like it felt like this place is not lived in. This feels like more like a dormitory. You know, it's all marble, but that doesn't give you any warmth, right? Marble is very cold. Yeah.

[01:10:18] So I found that interesting that that was the part that they wanted to change. Right. Because it gives you the sense that – I don't know. They are kind of imprisoned for a little bit, right? Of course they are. And that's the whole point of the medieval practice. They close the doors, they lock them, and you sleep in the Sistine Chapel on your little plot of straw. Yeah. So to convey that general sense. Right.

[01:10:46] Plus, I mean, a lot of these people having served as priests at some point, presumably in their careers, they would have lived in just those circumstances. Or maybe even worse. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. So I think that preserves some of this sense of, well, simplicity, if nothing else. Yeah. I like the point about the Pope's room being so simple that it was easier to – Exactly. Yeah. To see the little corner sticking out. But I love your take, Anthony.

[01:11:15] I think it's absolutely right. It had occurred to me before, but of course he wanted it to be found, so he made sure that somehow it would be noticeable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I found it interesting how they mixed in general this, as you said, history, but also taking liberties in order to emphasize certain aspects of the story. So we talked about how the costume designer visited Gamarelli, Tirelli Costumi, and museums in Rome to research past and present what actual cardinals were.

[01:11:44] But then decided, rather than using the scarlet red on the cardinals' robes that they actually use today, Crystal decided to go for the 17th century color, which was a more ruby color. And she thought it was easier on the eyes, basically, and richer look. It was that. It was absolutely that. Yeah. Yeah. And we mentioned earlier about the soundtrack.

[01:12:11] I said that there was, it was also in that sense, they're trying to make it timeless, historical, modern, and timeless at the same time. So Bertelman, he said he wanted a sound that was neither too ecclesiastical nor classical. And so he experimented with lesser known instruments. And so a lot of the score uses this crystal bachet, which is a crystallophone you play with.

[01:12:38] You get it wet, and then you kind of rub it, and it creates this humming sound. Interesting. That goes back to Mozart. Okay. I can't remember the name of it. It was slightly different in structure, but you had wine glasses. Right. And you wet your finger, and you ran your finger around, not unlike the Tibetan singing wall. Right. Same physics principle. Right, yeah. Yeah, so you have, I'm about to play you a clip.

[01:13:02] So you'll hear that sort of like almost other unearthly humming in the background. But then at this, and you can do quite a lot with it. Maybe I'll link this video that I found on YouTube where someone demonstrates how to play this instrument. It's quite beautiful. But then on top of that, he had string players use this ricochet bowing technique, which is like this sort of fast, you know. You flip the bow, and it bounces.

[01:13:30] So, and then he went for polyrhythms too, like triplets against 16th notes, just to emphasize the complexity of the different factions maneuvering around each other. So this is a short clip from Arrival, the first song at the start of the film.

[01:14:07] Yeah, so I think that's a really cool mashup of classic and new. Mm-hmm. And it goes back again to cinema, right? They're using camera. They're using script. They're using, you know, plot. Music. Music does a lot of work in this to, again, to create dramatic tension. Right. That keeps us moving through the movie. Yeah. To the endless church meeting.

[01:14:34] And instead of, often composers will have different themes for different characters. But he said since it was all these ensemble scenes, instead he made different scenes for, like, different situations. Or different, you know, themes for different situations. Although I do find that one that we just heard comes back a lot, a lot. I was listening to Berger interviewed, and he said that he initially wanted this to be a music-less movie. Wow. Interesting.

[01:15:03] He wanted to do it in complete silence. And then he decided sort of somewhere along the way, it's like, I'm not really telling people what kind of movie this is. Mm-hmm. And so then they started adding the music. I was like, I can't even imagine this movie without music now. No. So anyway, I'm glad he made the decision. I think some people in talking about cinema and movies, they talk about how music tells us what to feel and when to feel it. Right. Right.

[01:15:33] Whereas our mind is processing plot and dialogue and whatnot, our emotional response is often... Yeah. Not all of us appreciate the manipulation, but I guess with a movie like this, you're in it. You're invested enough that you're okay with going where the storyteller wants to take you. Well, and as I said at the beginning, I couldn't have told you anything about what the music was like. So to my experience, the music definitely served the film. Yeah. Right. And that's good. That's good music, right?

[01:16:03] Exactly. Because then you're just at the end, you're just like, oh, movie box, right? Yeah. There's a movie that fits in this box. I know that there are people who will complain about John Williams because he's quote unquote too loud. Well, okay. But I don't agree with that for you, but it's there. So Marilyn, we've teased the ending a lot. Do you want to explain what is the big twist at the end? Well, come on, he beautifully with the both end of it all.

[01:16:32] Benitez asks Lawrence to come and tells him that he is differently formed in terms of his sexual organs and whatnot. And that he has a dormant uterus basically. Right. He'd gone for surgery and they discovered that he had a uterus. And so we're still calling him he appropriately. It would be they. Well, he calls himself he. Yeah. Yes. Of course. So he identifies as a man, right? Yeah. He didn't find out about this until he was like in his 30s.

[01:16:59] He identified as a man until he went for the surgery. Yeah. Yeah. But we're talking about intersex binary, if you like. But that's more about gender than about physical sexuality. And just that image of the both end, you know, within his body was just stunning to me. Right.

[01:17:25] And the fact of, you know, a lot of people, I think as soon as you hear uterus or room, you go straight to female. Oh, this is really a female feminine person. And this is unthinkable. Well, no, it isn't unthinkable because there is a story in medieval times. It goes back to the 800s about a Pope Joan. Then the story arose right at the same time that clerical celibacy was first introduced.

[01:17:55] And so I could easily see that being as a sort of, you know, either a reaction against or a reinforcement for this particular thing. You know, there's various versions. Basically, there's a man and woman who love each other and the woman disguises herself as a man so that she can enter with the seminary with her lover. Although they weren't lovers at that point.

[01:18:21] And eventually she becomes such a fabulous priest and so forth. She moves up the ladder until she's elected Pope as Pope John. And it wasn't until after she became Pope that she becomes lustful. And, you know, presumably she and her lover created a baby. And the story ends quite dramatically with her giving birth in the middle of a holy procession.

[01:18:44] And legend has it that it was such a horrible scandal that the Popes will not use that route anymore. I don't know if that's true or not. Yeah, but if you want to liven up that church meeting, there's no better way to liven up a church meeting than to give birth in the middle of the meeting. Yeah, when everyone thinks you're a male or Jane Pope.

[01:19:06] But I really do think that it's interesting that this whole story came about around the same time as the Declaration of Asselvacy for Priests, which was not there from the beginning. Right. A lot of people don't realize that that that was something. Yeah. So I don't find this ending unrealistic. I mean, you can't say this is unthinkable because it was thought. Right. Right. Yeah. Something other than a straight male masculine being becoming Pope, whatever you're comfortable with the terms.

[01:19:35] I mean, there's actually, there's a, you know, I've gone down a rabbit hole, of course, about there's so many different, you know, gender abnormalities, quote unquote. Variants. Try variants. Variants. There we go. There we go. That's a better word. So you can have, this could be XX male syndrome, which is de la Chappelle syndrome. There's also a Klinefelter syndrome. It's probably not that.

[01:19:59] It does seem like it happens perhaps even more commonly the other way around where someone presents as a woman their entire life and then finds out they actually have some male aspects to them. Undescended testes. Yeah. Androgen insensitivity syndrome. Yeah. There was some recent research in Denmark that found out that it actually happens way more than we think it happens. Yes. That's right. And it usually gets talked about in sports.

[01:20:26] So I want to talk about this because after this, you know, my wife and I started going down the same rabbit trail and I thought it was interesting. This is something that Sarah pointed out. She said that in terms of this variety, we could guess that it happens. We find this variety 1% to 2% of the population. And if you think about it, there's 109 men in the room.

[01:20:56] Nice one. So if you, I mean, this is not, this is not something that we talk a lot about in terms of, you know, intersex doesn't really get the advocacy that some other groups will get. That's right. But it is very common. And oftentimes, you know, doctors will try to quote unquote solve the problem with child, with children at birth. Right. Babies. It's horrible. They don't even tell the parents.

[01:21:22] It's often the case that you can be otherly physiologically oriented, I suppose, and not know this your whole life. Right. That's right. Right. So I don't know.

[01:21:39] Now, for people who like did not like, you know, the implausibility of this in the movie, I appreciate it just because I wouldn't have known as much about intersex before this movie. I will also say, and this may be challenges a little bit of the progressive reading on this, that you could take a very conservative view on this.

[01:22:08] In that, what Benita says is, I found this out. I could have had the surgery to remove the womb. I decided it would be a sin to change the handiwork. Right. So this absolutely goes sort of falls on the more conservative side of the trans conversation. That's right. And so I think if you wanted to be, let's see here.

[01:22:38] If you wanted to read it in that way, you could easily walk away with this thinking, that's just sort of a sneaky way to get in a conservative message. Right. But I don't know if the film intends that or if that's just sort of a unnecessary consequence of the film. I thought that this works very well with Maryland's both and earlier because you could read it in a very conservative way.

[01:23:08] Or maybe you could read it in a way that's like God is going to intervene to make sure that the depravity of mankind doesn't rule the day in the end. I don't really know. The film is beautifully ambiguous. And I like that aspect of it.

[01:23:37] But just like intersex is ambiguous. And the message I took back was choice. He had a choice about he, she, they had a choice about their body and they made a choice. Yeah. I didn't even take it back to, sorry, did you want to continue? I think we should use male pronouns since that's what he once. He referred to himself as, yeah. Yeah. He did refer to himself as he. That's been his identity his entire life.

[01:24:07] You're right. Yeah. And. Right. And the difference between gender and physiology, between gender and sex, right? Yes. Absolutely. Now, I will note on this point that one of our oldest and most celebrated theologians, Augustine, notes that the ancient world knows very well of this physiological phenomenon. Of course they do. And he's, what Augustine says, he says, we just refer to them as men.

[01:24:36] So if that's the view, then there should be no scandal at all. Right. For this, this quote unquote man ascending to the papacy. Of course, this takes on a different meaning with the nuance of more contemporary conversations, right? Mm-hmm.

[01:24:55] Well, especially in this case where, you know, before modern medical, you know, tools, you wouldn't, in a case like this, you would likely never even find out. Right. Right. I want to take this back to Lawrence's homily. Okay. Yeah. And this question of certainty. Mm-hmm. And the quote from St. Paul, which is, be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.

[01:25:23] Um, that the, there is definitely a point of view of this movie that is going to echo out into all kinds of, you know, different areas of life, politics being one of those. And I do have one minor quibble with the reveal, just because the, the procedural murder mystery part of this. And then with the reveal of, of Benitz's condition, it was like almost a little bit too much for me.

[01:25:53] It was like, oh, they put it one more thing on top of the another. I think if they had unloaded it slightly or dealt with it slightly different, I would have been fine. It was just from a mechanical standpoint, but from the message of the movie, what this movie is trying to push, put forward and have us contemplate and have this conversation about. Is certainty this, these questions of certainty, these questions of doubt and faith, the questions of wrestling with ourselves, both physically and corporeally.

[01:26:22] And Benitz's journey through his own understanding of, of how he was made and, and what that means. And then what that means for an institution like the church, which is so, you know, obviously male oriented, um, in a, in a traditionalist sense.

[01:26:42] And so it, it just, to me, this is where this movie just pushes the conversation into this next realm, which is, okay. If certainty is the sin that we're trying to, uh, uh, uh, come to grips with within ourselves. And we need to, and we are a fellowship of Christ. We are a society of Christ here.

[01:27:10] Then we need to be subject to one another out of reverence. That is our guiding principle is, is that we're reverent to each other. And so when, when we look at all the different factions in the church and then this news is ultimately going to come out, right. And how is that going to drive the politics of the interior of the church? I think this, this just triggers that like, oh, what is going to happen? Kind of question for what happens at the, after the credits roll in this movie.

[01:27:38] And so I really liked that it pushes, this whole thing pushes the, the movie into that next realm of, oh God, what is going to happen? Right. Like I'm, I'm after the movie, I'm thinking, whoa. And it's like, my brain is thinking about all the different things and all the different factions and how they're going to react to this news. But we got to go back to Lawrence's homily, right? We need to be subject to one another. We need to be tolerant of one another.

[01:28:07] We need to walk in each other's shoes as Benita says, right? Like you don't know war. I do, but we can share that conversation and we can work on this topic together. You don't have to have experienced war as long as you have, you can understand my point of view that war is in that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm interested. Do you think it's inevitably going to come out, David? I'm not sure I feel that way. I don't think so, actually. In this day and age?

[01:28:36] Man, I mean, look at the Amelia Perez stuff, right? Like somebody went and dug up, you know, these quotes from- Yeah, but he's not tweeting about it, though. And he's been in Afghanistan until- Right. But people- You know, last week. It's a hive mind mentality of, you know, people are going to go and I just don't think something like that would not come out. In this day and age, in this, and I'm contemporaneously thinking about all of the stuff that's going on.

[01:29:05] We are not in a society where people don't go digging into people's, you know, public people's lives. But then how would they? Yeah. Yeah. I just think that unless- Lawrence found out. Yeah. Unless- Because Benitez told Lawrence. He told him. And, oh, what is that clinic? And, oh, what do they specialize in? You know, like it's some, oh, the Uber driver.

[01:29:33] You know, somebody's going to, you know, it's not- I don't think he took Uber. You know what I mean. You know what I mean. Yeah. Well, yeah. But I just don't think that unless he decides it's good to tell, then maybe it might come out. But then, yeah, that's a question. Well, like, hey, by the way, I've got a uterus. God made me this way. So stop being mean to trans people, right? Trans rights or human rights, right?

[01:29:58] Like, what is his responsibility as Pope to advance the church's agenda in creating a better world for all of God's, you know, creations? Well, it sounded- I mean, it sounded like that was his agenda. Yeah. And I think it's God's agenda, not the church's agenda that he's going to forward. That's the implication I took away. Sure, sure, sure, sure. The church being God's institution on Earth. Right. Can I tell you my interpretation of the ending? Please. Please.

[01:30:28] So I sort of saw this as, because we see the movie largely through Cardinal Lawrence's, Ralph Fiennes' perspective, you know, I saw it as a story of him. You know, he is the dutiful soldier, sort of, you know, the worker aunt who is putting together the conclave, is doing all the right things, and then has this moment of, you know, I could actually become Pope. And that temptation, where then we have the bomb that goes off, as Anthony said, you know, the sort of,

[01:30:57] voice of God, the voice of God in a way, stepping in. And then this moment happens. So after Benitez has been elected, and Benitez tells Lawrence this news. And then Lawrence has this moment where he's like, oh, we need to run back and tell them that, you know, what's happened so that they can stop this process.

[01:31:22] But then he sees the white smoke go up, which means that they have elected the new Pope, right? Or did I get that backwards? The white smoke means they've elected him. Black means that they didn't. Okay, so the white smoke goes up. And it's like, oh, well, it's done. And then you see him sort of, he just was like, oh, well, too late. And it's almost, so he picks up this turtle, this turtle that the previous Pope had kept that had wandered off, and he carries it back.

[01:31:49] And apparently the turtle symbolism, the filmmaker has said, is about independence of spirit. And then we end, the last shot is we see a group of nuns exiting the building laughing together.

[01:32:05] And I think that this is like, he realizes for a moment, he kind of dodged a bullet by not becoming the Pope, because now he's more free to live probably an easier life that rather than being in that position. I don't, where did you get the sense that Lawrence thought he had to go and tell everybody? Well, there was that moment where it was like, he is thinking about, should I be going to tell everybody?

[01:32:34] And then you see the white smoke and it's like, well, I guess not. Yeah. So there was no dialogue about it? No, no, no, no. It was just, okay. So this is how you're interpreting his looks and his, yeah. I don't think he ever intended to tell. Yeah. I think that to support David's view that it's going to get out at some point, isn't that the lesson that the turtles taught us? Oh, the turtles going to get out? Say more. Oh, the turtles get out. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:33:02] Because they're always getting out of their place, right? You try to keep things in a box. And of course, nature doesn't allow that, right? The box turtles are going to get out. So I do think there's- Truth will out as a common phrase, right? I think there's something about that. I think also, at least I think that this movie could be read as that God becomes Pope.

[01:33:33] Because you could, if you, I mean, I think that there's many, in many ways, Benitez is a stand-in for Jesus. But I think it's even more than that. I think that right doctrine, and you can find this in the Catholic doctrine or any, you know, a lot of elements of Christian doctrine would say that ultimately God is genderless.

[01:34:00] And if God is genderless, then is God even qualified to be Pope? And I think that it's an interesting question to ask. And I think you could easily read this film as an allegory that, you know, what we needed was someone who could rise above the pettiness of man to really bring unity in a way that none of these other petty men could.

[01:34:28] And in that way, yeah, it's probably progressive fantasy. Or you could view it as, this is kind of a progressive Catholic fantasy. Like, we could solve all these problems with one fell swoop. And of course, it works as a movie. I don't know if it works as a sort of a political aspiration. But I think it's possible. This whole movie is an allegory. I would agree with everything you said.

[01:34:56] But I would add that I think it's not that God is genderless. God contains all genders and all gender expressions. Yeah, sure. I mean, those are not exactly saying the same things. It's not saying the same thing. I think that some people would be more comfortable with one view and one would be. But even within scripture, like for instance, just as an example, God is portrayed as someone who has compassion.

[01:35:26] Right. The Hebrew word for compassion. Chesed. All right, sure. But I was thinking about the Hebrew word racham, which is the same root as the Hebrew word for womb. So if God has compassion, God has a womb. And I think that there's – I don't know if this movie intentionally is playing on that.

[01:35:48] But I do think that there's a sense in which the God character, the deus et machina in this film. Literally. Is not someone that you can easily fit into sort of a simplistic idea of gender binaries, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The both end of it all. And I thought that chesed was also derived from the word for womb. So – I mean it's a word – Did I miss that? It's a word with many, many meanings.

[01:36:17] It generally gets translated as sort of steadfast love or devotional love. Which is motherly. Which could be motherly but – And fatherly and parently. Yeah, sure. Yeah, no, there's certainly an aspect to that too. I would say too that when a movie like this plays on multiple facets and things start to come out, that is to me an indication that there is a truth present here that we're grappling with.

[01:36:45] Even though the filmmaker may not have intended to bring up those topics. Oh, yeah. But just by cutting this line and moving through these topics and it's sparking off all these things, that to me is a clear indication that there are some truths here about the human condition that we're contemplating. And again, another hallmark of a successful film. Yeah. A film about important topics. Indeed.

[01:37:12] And I will add too that I think the idea of then counterpointing all of these men with their ego-driven, you know, reasons for wanting to be the Pope. Oh, we got to go back to the Latin liturgy. We need to move progressively forward into the future. No, we got to run the middle, you know, the middle path. Their egos and their passions for it.

[01:37:41] And then here comes this, you know, alternative to that. That just counterpoints everything. Didn't come in wanting. It doesn't say that it's not in his heart. Right. Benitez was voting for Lawrence most of the whole time, presumably. Exactly. Benitez is the ultimate servant. Yeah. And then the name is brilliant. Innocence, right? Innocent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:38:08] So yeah, I like what, Anthony, what you're saying here about this giant allegory. We had a nice full discussion. Do we have any final thoughts on this film? Go see the movie. Go see the movie. Go see the movie. I'm not a huge scholar of Catholicism. I'm not even in awe of Catholicism, really. But you got to appreciate a religion that allows you to wear a hat on top of your hat.

[01:38:40] It's all about the look, huh? Yeah. I kept thinking about the song, Did Galileo Pray? I'm blanking on the singer's name, but I did have a link to it in here if you want to. And the line, put the judges on the witness stand. Let's see what they all say. It's about, was Galileo praying when he was thrown into prison because he had the audacity to say that the earth was around the sun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:39:10] Well, if any listeners at home have thoughts about this film, we definitely want to hear them send in an email or a voicemail to Oscars at thelorehounds.com and we'll talk about it on a future episode. Next up in this Oscar series is going to be all about the music. I am recording actually very shortly with Mark from Nevermind the Music. We're doing a Nevermind the Oscars crossover, so that'll be fun.

[01:39:39] Hi, future editor Alicia checking in to make a little correction. So I switched up the order and you might have noticed that that music episode I was just talking about is already in the episode list. And now the next one up is going to be about the documentary categories where I had a delightful conversation, especially given the subject matter with documentary editor Rebecca June Lane. So that will be coming your way soon. And as usual with all of these films, I do not expect that you've seen them.

[01:40:09] We talk about them as if you have not seen them. So we will tell you about them and you can decide which ones you want to know more about. But then at least you understand which films are involved in the race. OK, back to the end of the conversation. And I know there's lots of other stuff coming up on the Lorehounds feed. There's going to be a Silmarillion stories, I believe, next week. The Ruin of Barely... Beleriand. Beleriand. Thank you.

[01:40:36] And things are really cooking on the Separate Severance feed. David and Anthony? Yeah, we'll be recording this afternoon for episode four. And we've been having some great bonus conversations for subscribers and season pass holders. We had some great conversations with Nicole and Mark from Nevermind the Music about psychology and music. Anthony, you've got a bonus episode coming up with Jason Pearl, who's an ethicist. And philosopher?

[01:41:06] Bioethics and also medieval ethics. And he was on... When we did our Alien coverage earlier, later last year, he was one of our guests when we did a crossover pod with Aisha from every single sci-fi film ever. Yeah. And the Discord channels are cooking with him. Yes. So join us on Discord to chat about this. You'll find a link tree in the show notes with links to the Discord and to...

[01:41:33] And the general email address and all the affiliates, including Properly Howard, just finished a few good films, Anthony? Yes. We finally rounded into form. And we delighted in angry men making speeches. Counterpoint to this movie? Yes. Yes. That's right.

[01:41:57] And I think you had one of your series highlights ever, which was the cocktail episode. Yeah. That was, again, a very interesting exploration of 1980s masculinity in the movie Cocktail. So... Hmm. And I'm Will Shift Dust or just finished Silo and rolling into the Dune Book breakdown. Radioactive Ramblings is doing their Ghibli series.

[01:42:26] The next up is apparently Princess Mononoke. And they're also going to be covering Invincible Season 3 and Castlevania Nocturne, which I think is on Season 2. And Never Mind the Music, the most recent episode that was out as of recording, I believe that was the auto-tune episode with T-Pain and a sidetrack that was related to that. Yeah. The sidetrack episode was... Because Mark and Nicole are both full-time college professors.

[01:42:51] They talk about what it's like to be college professors and the sort of some of the things that you wrestle with when you're working with students and what your position is as a person providing knowledge, but... But allowing them to form their own opinions. Yeah. Rather than feeding them yours. Yeah. Yeah. I'll have to look for that episode. Yes. Even if I am retired.

[01:43:17] And we always, of course, want to shout out to our Discord server boosters and our lore masters. Thank you to all of our listeners. Thank you to our lore hounds subscribers on Supercast and Patreon. You know, you get a bunch of bonuses, like all the things, the bonuses we've mentioned so far. And also we've got a Lynch one coming up. Do we know which movie is leading in the Lynch? Yeah. Currently Eraserhead. Yeah. Okay. I figured.

[01:43:44] This is interesting too because the total vote count is very low relative to our past votes. And I think it's because people are really like, ooh, I don't know. I want to make a choice between Eraserhead, Inland Empire, and The Straight Story. Yeah. People are like, why didn't you do Mulholland Drive? I'm like, because I've watched Mulholland Drive so many times. It's the easy popular choice. Yeah. Yeah. You know, lots of things coming up there, including, I think, Marilyn, you made the suggestion for comfort food for the next second breakfast.

[01:44:14] Yes, I did. I did. And I posted a long recipe about chicken rice soup. Yes. So we've got all that coming up for the subscribers. But David, do you want to shout out the Discord server boosters? Absolutely. Lore Masters. Lore Masters being our highest tier of subscribers, you get a shout out every episode. And I pulled up some music. I'm not really sure what I have here, but it's called Stained Glass. Okay. And that's called Appropriate. Oh, here we go.

[01:44:46] All right. To our Discord server boosters, Aaron K, Tiller the Thriller, Dork of the Ninjas, Doove71, Athena Adjalea, Tina, Lustu, Nancy M, Ghost of Perdition, and Radioactive Richard, thank you so much for making our community talk space a better place and a more fun and interactive platform.

[01:45:05] To our Lore Masters, our top tier subscribers, thank you to Sumartian, Michael G, Michelle E, Brian P, SC, Peter O.H., Patina W., Adam S., Nancy M., Doove71, Brian8063, who is also known as Usul, Frederick H., Sarah L., Gareth C., Matthew M., Sarah M., DJ Miwa, Andra B., Kong Yu, Deadeye, Jedi Bob, Nathan T., Alex V., Aaron T., Sub-Zero, Aaron T.,

[01:45:35] K., Kali B., Mothership61, Charles, Kathy W., Lestu, Jeffrey B., Elisa U., Neil F., Ben B., Scott F., we've got all these new names, Stephen N., Julia F., Kali S., Kali S., Ilmaril, and forever last but never least, Adrian. Thank you all so very much for your ongoing and continued support. We couldn't do any of the work that we do in the Lore Hounds without you.

[01:46:05] Thank you to everyone who listens, whether you're a subscriber or not. We're just glad that you're here. We're glad that you're part of our community and that we get to all enjoy this human-driven community where we get to wrestle and talk about all these things that we love. So thank you. And if you enjoy what you've heard, then please do share it. That helps us hugely. And you can always leave a nice review wherever you're listening. That is an enormous help. Thank you so much.

[01:46:33] And thank you so much to Marilyn, Anthony, and David for joining today. Oh, thanks for the invitation. Thank you. I had a lot of fun. You said this was going to be a 30-minute conversation. I wondered what. The Lore Hounds podcast is produced and published by the Lore Hounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and ad-free access to all Lore Hounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lore Hounds.

[01:47:00] Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening.

[01:47:19] My brother Cardinal, with respect, what do you know about war? I carried out my ministry in the Congo, in Baghdad and Kabul. I've seen the lines of the dead and wounded.

[01:47:44] Christian and Muslim, when you say we have to fight, what is it you think we're fighting? Do you think it's those deluded men who have carried out these terrible acts today? No, my brother. La lucha está aquí. Aquí. Dentro de cada uno de nosotros. Si cedemos al odio y al temor.

[01:48:14] Si hablamos de bandos, en vez de hablar por cada hombre y cada mujer. Esta es mi primera vez entre ustedes. Y probablemente será la última. Y perdóname, pero en estos días hemos demostrado ser un grupo de hombres pequeños y mezquinos. Interesados solamente en nosotros mismos. En Roma. En la elección y el poder.

[01:48:45] Y esas cosas no son la iglesia. La iglesia no es la tradición. La iglesia no es el pasado. La iglesia es lo que hagamos en adelante. Hey, everyone. David here. Severance is back.

[01:49:10] The Lorehounds are partnering with Properly Howard to bring you in-depth weekly coverage of Season 2. Join me, John, Anthony, and Steve as we unpack every twist, theory, and revelation. We've created a dedicated feed just for our Severance coverage. Simply search for Severance Lorehounds in your podcast app or find the direct link in our link tree.

[01:49:38] Our weekly episodes dig deep into the show's mysteries, themes, and bigger questions about identity and consciousness that make Severance so compelling. Season Pass and regular community subscribers get ad-free access to our weekly episodes, plus exclusive content like our Supply Closet bonus series featuring fascinating conversations with experts like the team from Nevermind the Music.

[01:50:03] We've explored the neuroscience of memory and personality, decoded the hidden meanings in the show's musical themes, and there's much more to come. You'll also get Steve and Anthony's complete Season 1 rewatch series. We believe in total transparency with our listeners, and unlike Mammalians Nurturable, we're happy to share all of our secrets.

[01:50:29] Find the link for the Severance feed in the show notes below, or search Severance Lorehounds wherever you get your podcasts. Come theorize with us about what's really happening at Lumen.