Oscars 2025 – Production Design & A/V Tech Awards + the SAG surprises

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[00:02:23] Hello, Lorehounds listeners, and welcome to the Dune Awards. I mean, I'm sorry, the Tech Awards, or as I insist on rebranding them, the Blockbuster Awards. I'll be joined shortly by Logan from the Academy of Death Racers, whom some of you may recognize from our Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes coverage this year. And we're going to be talking about six awards categories whose nominees are a mix of the Best Picture nominees and a bunch of the other films you're actually most likely to have seen this year already.

[00:02:50] These categories are VFX, production design, costumes, hair and makeup, film editing, and sound. The usual spoiler policy applies. You don't need to have seen any of the movies yourself. We'll give you the logline for each and avoid any major spoilers while giving you our hot takes and breaking down why each film is or isn't worthy to win the prize in our opinions.

[00:03:14] But the idea is to whet your appetite for the films that you haven't seen and, you know, see which ones appeal to you. We are now nearing the end of the 2025 Oscars prep coverage. Check the links in the show notes to catch up on any episodes you missed. The mini intro episode with David with important notes for the ceremony and season. The animation episode with campaigning insights, a breakdown of the evolving Amelia Perez controversy,

[00:03:40] the nevermind the Oscars music episode with lots of music clips and analysis, special spotlight coverage of Conclave, a breakdown of the documentaries and what makes a doc quote unquote good, the mix of emotions at play in the live action shorts, and a deep dive into the international and screenplay categories. And now let's bring Logan in to talk through the way more exciting than their title makes them sound tech awards,

[00:04:07] the so-called below the line awards, or yeah, I call them the blockbuster awards because these are really the visual and editing awards, the awards that award the variety of impressive crafts that turn a story into cinema. So I am here with our guest, Logan, member of the Academy of Death Racers, and whom some of you might recognize from our Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes deep dive,

[00:04:36] which is, by the way, linked in the notes, as are all the other deep dives into the 2025 Oscar noms from the Lorehounds feed. Welcome back, Logan. Thank you for joining. Thanks for having me. How is your death race going? It's going. As of right now, I'm at 37 out of 50. Okay. So making decent progress. I've got a few shorts to track down,

[00:05:02] but a lot of it is international and brutalist. Okay. Yeah. That's about it. So the brutalist we were just talking about is the only one of the ones we're going to be talking about today that you haven't yet seen. But I assure listeners that not only have we already talked about it, talked about the music in depth, where I'm actually rooting for it in the music categories, but then the next episode after this, which has already been recorded, Paolo and I have opposite opinions on the brutalist.

[00:05:29] So you're going to hear all the analysis from both ends there. And of course, I'll talk about what I've seen for these categories it's nominated for here. Um, but yeah, we're talking about the visual and editing awards, which are also called the blow of the line awards, or I like to call them the blockbuster awards because they are the films that most people are most likely to have seen. The films that listeners to this podcast are most likely to have seen.

[00:05:55] Um, and the awards we're specifically talking about today are visual effects, production design, costume, makeup, and hairstyling, film editing, and sound. And, uh, this time we're going to run through the list of nominees per category in alphabetical order and talk about an entire category as a whole. Um, do you have a favorite of these six categories? Usually for me, usually I'd say visual effects.

[00:06:24] This year, I think makeup is actually coming out swinging. It's very strong. It's a very strong category this year. And there's only one option that I would be genuinely mad at if makeup wins. Whereas listeners, guess which one? Yeah. Uh, visual effects. I'm cool with any of those five winning. I think they all are worthy at least of the nomination and can be justified somehow on the win. Right. But right.

[00:06:54] Yeah. I mean, visual effects is, um, is, is always a favorite of mine too. Uh, let's start with that category. Uh, the nominees are alien Romulus. And then the, um, for alien Romulus, the Oscar would go to Eric Barba, Nelson, Sepulveda, Fauser, Daniel Macarain, and Shane Mahan. And they work at a combination of industrial light and magic here to have to refer to as ILM.

[00:07:22] Waiter, um, legacy effects. There's often, you'll find for all of these that they, there tends to be a collaboration between different studios and ILM and beta come up a lot. It's always ILM in some way, shape or form. Uh, we got a lot of way to like the next one. Better man. Also beta, um, beta, weta, weta, weta. I'm pronouncing it too Dutch. Weta.

[00:07:48] Uh, better man is Luke Miller, David Clayton, Keith Hurft, and Peter Stubbs. We've got Dune part two with Paul Lambert, Stephen James, Rice, uh, sorry, Reese Salcombe, and Gerd Nefzer. And they work at Digital Domain and Wiley Co. Company, and I'm sure a few others. And you might hear my cat in the background doing sound effects. We're not that far yet, ghost.

[00:08:15] Um, we've got Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes, which you and I talked about at length. Uh, Eric Vingquist, Wingquist. Uh, Stephen Unterfranz, Paul Story, and Rodney Burke. And that's also a way to another, weta, and other, um, uh, VFX houses. And finally Wicked, Pavel Hellman, Jonathan Faulkner, David Shirk, and Paul Korbold. And that's ILM and Framestore that worked on that one.

[00:08:43] So you said, uh, makeup is kind of stealing this category's thunder this year, just because there's some phenomenal makeup. But, um, considering this is generally your favorite category, what are your overall thoughts on this year's crop? This year is, it's an interesting one because four of the five nominees are from pre-existing IP. Mm-hmm. Like, you've got Alien, which is another sequel. Dune is a sequel. Planet of the Apes is a sequel.

[00:09:11] Wicked is a film adaptation of a stage show. Of a book, yeah. Of a book, yeah. Um, and Better Man is, like, truly the only one that is unique. And even then, it's still a monkey. So it goes back to everything that's been done with the Planet of the Apes films for motion capture of monkeys. Like, and they, I know, I've looked at behind-the-scenes stuff. I know they used a lot of that as reference and a starting spot for Better Man. So I know it's very similar.

[00:09:41] Well, Weta did both of those. So, yeah. Yeah, we make a lot of jokes about it. It's the year of the monkeys. Yes. We have Monkey Man. We have, yeah. Lots of monkeys this year. I don't know why. Lots of monkeys. Well, it is interesting. I think this is the category that listeners are most likely to have watched in full. We've actually done deep dives on the Lorehounds feed into four out of the five of these films. So, yeah.

[00:10:11] It's, I think that's one reason why it's a popular category and which is why I'm reluctant to call these the technical awards because it sounds so boring. Yeah. These are very, like, big name films. Like, this is the one that when you're a kid, these are the ones that you've seen as a kid. And you go into the Oscars and your parents are watching it and you're like, hey, I know those five films. Like, this is the only category I know all five. Like, I don't know.

[00:10:41] It's one that gets overshadowed a lot. Yeah, it's true. And it's funny. There are things, you know, there are like, there's, for instance, Lynch. I think he only ever got a VFX nod. And not wait. Am I thinking of Lynch? No, no, no. Sorry. Sorry. 2001 Space Odyssey. Kubrick. Kubrick, yeah. Kubrick only ever got a VFX win. Yeah. Which is crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:08] And it's also one where there's a lot of, like, only nominated in this category film. So we have three this time. We have Alien Romulus. We have Better Man. And we have Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes. And, you know, we've already spent a lot of time gushing over particularly Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes. Yeah. But Better Man should have gotten way more nominations than this. Yeah.

[00:11:32] I, for the longest time, when Better Man got announced and there was this weird talk and then I was like, okay, like, Robbie Williams getting a biopic, like, whatever. Who doesn't get one anymore? Like, every musician does. And then I looked closer at it and then they were like, yeah, we're going to make Robbie a monkey the whole runtime. And I was like, this is not going to work. This is stupid. This is Robbie just with creative freedom.

[00:12:01] And then I watched it and I was like, okay, he had a reason for it. And it actually kind of worked out. Like, it has some good points to it. Yeah. I don't think I could root. Well, first of all, it allowed him to play himself despite the fact that he's no longer, you know, a young man. Yeah. Um, and they had someone else doing the physical parts, but he was doing the voice and the, and the face mapping.

[00:12:27] And, and there's, um, I'm going to link in the show notes, a really good, uh, YouTube video from corridor crew where they interviewed the VFX artists who worked on better man. And part of me, like, of course, I think probably overall I'm rooting for Dune and I think Dune is going to win.

[00:12:47] But part of me wants better man to win just because like, you know, even when I compare, um, interviews about this film with kingdom kingdom of the planet of the eight. So obviously exceptional VFX, um, and you done by the same company.

[00:13:04] But when you just hear about like the hand crafting that went into better man, about how, um, you'll hear Paulo refer to this whole thing that they talk about in this video about, um, the monkey shaving his head and how you just, I I've worked at animation studios and I know working with hair and animation is just so difficult. And just in interactions between, and they had to do every single shot. Uh, yeah.

[00:13:31] If you can make hair look real when it's animated, you're doing something right. Yeah. And just the, the micro expressions of this monkey figure, you forget that it's a monkey. Yeah. It there's, yeah, they make it way more human than I expected it to be like with planet of the apes. It even with kingdom, which I think is better than the other ones, but.

[00:13:59] But you can still tell that it's just a monkey. Whereas this one, it's very much a human. Right. As a monkey. Like, and they did a good job of kind of differentiating the, the, the change between them because like this is supposed to be a person, but he is a monkey. Like, whereas planet of the apes, it is monkeys being monkeys. Just more advanced. Right.

[00:14:24] So planet of a kingdom of the planet, the apes, obviously continuation of this epic saga, um, where it's, it's about. It's about monkeys or apes who become more human like in their behavior. Whereas better man, he starts the film by saying, let me show you how I see myself. And then we see a monkey and it, it just, it works because then, um, if you don't know much about Robbie Williams, you don't need to in this film.

[00:14:50] You don't need to be a fan of his, I am not really per se a fan of his, um, definitely not a fan of his public persona, but he is so. Um, unabashed and just taking a hard look at himself and where he knows he's fucked up in his life, but also. So just having a good humor about horrible things that have happened.

[00:15:13] And, um, yeah, it's just so much heart and humor and, and, and, and this all comes through because, uh, he says, well, I see myself as a monkey basically, which makes sense in the sense that he's like a dancing for, for the public. Uh, he's putting on this performance for the public all the time, but it also works in other moments where he's like clumsy and messes things up because of that or lashes out in anger, you know.

[00:15:38] I don't want to get too spoiler heavy unless you want to, but that end sequence would not have worked if he wasn't a monkey. Hmm. It wouldn't have. No, the, the final concert. Oh, uh-huh. That visual would not have, if it was just humans, it would have just been another acid trip. Like it wouldn't have mattered. Yeah.

[00:16:03] Like it stood out because they were monkeys and you were watching all of that happen and it was like, oh, hey, that's kind of cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they do some really great things with like the metaphor. There are some big show numbers too, where there's like a bunch of monkeys fighting each other because it's about him fighting himself. Yeah. And, um, and also, uh, everyone talks about the rock DJ.

[00:16:29] Um, that's, you don't even notice like the VFX on it just because they had to do things like they had to think about the reflections of all the VFX and then do some things by hand just because of the complications of this. It looks like a one shot, big dance number in the streets, but yeah. The one, yeah, the one in the streets was definitely like every little angle. I was like, oh my God, there's windows with reflections. There's water on the ground with reflections.

[00:16:57] I'm like, oh man, they went frame by frame on this. Like this took them ages to do. Yeah. Like they had to take forever to sit there and make, make sure everything was reflected properly. Mm hmm. Yeah. It's also just a really good film. So everybody watch it. It's out on, um, and you can watch it at home now. Yeah, it's very good.

[00:17:19] But, um, I mean, not to downplay at all, obviously Dune part two, where just, uh, just that Villeneuve way of, um, I mean, that it's this, this whole team that brings his vision to life and makes it look like it's really real in this world. Or in this galaxy, you know, with the spaceships and, and the different, um, I mean, we'll talk about production design too, but the different.

[00:17:47] Uh, environments and how they conveyed the differentness of that. And I just remember like the moment I knew I was in on this film is that first shot where we see the Harkonnen soldiers lifting up off of just smoothly lifting up off of the sand with the orange background. Yeah. Yeah. I think the only thing that Dune has going against it is that it's just a rehash of Dune. It's just a rehash of a couple years ago.

[00:18:15] I don't know if they'll give it a, I don't know if they'll give them a second win with Dune. Do I think it's worthy? Yeah. Yeah. But I'm not sure if the Academy will go for it knowing they already gave Dune a couple of years ago a win. So will they do it with part two when it's a lot of the same setting? I'm not sure. It did just win at BAFTA last night as we're recording.

[00:18:39] That was my next point because if it won the BAFTA, that kind of tosses my argument out a little bit. So I'm really curious to see if they will give a second win to Dune. I personally wouldn't pick Dune, but I think it's a contender still for sure. Like I don't think it's completely discounted at all. You wouldn't pick it? Which one would you pick?

[00:19:07] I would probably pick Better Man. Yeah. Okay. The more I've learned about how they did the VFX, the more impressed I am. Yeah. Whereas Dune feels like a, Dune part two feels like a rehash of Dune. Yeah. Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes, of course, is very similar VFX to the last couple Planet of the Apes. The only one that's like new and fresh to me is Better Man. Wicked, fine. That's just generic visual effects.

[00:19:37] That's in my head. Well, I mean, I think they- Outside of a couple things. I think about especially the way they did the Grimoire, this book that has the cool pages and the text swimming over each other and coming out of the page and the monkeys with the wings and yeah. Again, monkeys. Again, monkeys. Yeah. Dune is just, I don't know. Me and Dune have a weird relationship.

[00:20:04] I'm still just not the biggest fan of the IP in general. You're being booed on this podcast. Yeah, I know. See each their own. I know that's a very uncommon opinion. I couldn't get into the books either. Sure. Well, it's just we are especially Dune fans here. I couldn't. Yeah. The books didn't click. The first film really didn't vibe with me. I did really enjoy part two.

[00:20:33] Of course, the old one from Lynch was not great. But my interest in Dune definitely impacts how I feel about certain things. But I think visual effects is definitely still an option for them. But I don't think it's the frontrunner. I think Better Man is frontrunner.

[00:20:59] I think that if it were only voted on by people within the industry, Better Man would be the frontrunner. But I think that since everyone's voting on it, I think it's going to be Dune. And I also think it's going to be Dune because Dune only got, I still have Dune as my number one film of the year, Dune part two, which I've had there like all year long. There's a lot of people who are disappointed that it only got five nominations and most of them in these quote unquote technical awards.

[00:21:29] So I don't think it's going to take home best picture is not even really been truly in the conversation for that. So I think that this might be this and perhaps some of the other technical words we'll talk about might be like the quote unquote consolation prize. People are like, well, we don't want to ignore Dune because it really is a cinematic achievement. So let's, yeah. Well, visuals are great. Let's give it VFX. Yeah, that's definitely, yeah.

[00:21:59] That's part of the conversation because you don't know how the voters think. I mean, the voters do what the voters do. We can never really truly predict what they're going to do. And I think that's what gives us all a headache every year. I don't try to predict. I prefer to go more with the heart. And I wish if I think if there were fewer like predictions, then maybe we could get more

[00:22:25] variety instead of everybody agreeing on the same films. Yeah. You know who I think is not going to win? Please tell me it's Alien. It is Alien. And I think Alien did a lot of great VFX in terms of the alien itself and the chestburster moments and the like acid ballet, as I call it. But that Rook moment. Rook was awful. Apparently.

[00:22:52] So Rook at one point, for anyone who doesn't know, at one point there's a character who comes back, played by a deceased actor. So they used AI to kind of recreate this, his head of this android character from the original film. And it was so bad in the theatrical release. Apparently they have improved it a bit for home release. I haven't seen that, but that's what I read online. Not surprised there. It was bad. It was really bad in the theater. And Rook is...

[00:23:22] It looks so unreal and like... Yeah. And Rook is like, this is a name for a different android, but it is the same model. Android is Ash from the original Alien from 79. So like, it is still... Oh my God. It's Ian Holm is the actor. So like, it's still his face. It's still his likeness. It's just a second character. Which we've seen done in the Alien franchise with Michael Fassbender. Yeah. Because he's an android.

[00:23:52] So it's the same model. So it's just the same model, same face, whatever. But I... They... Disney has done plenty of instances of bringing back actors who have passed in decent ways. Or making them look younger. This one was bad.

[00:24:15] And I remember sitting in the theater going, oh my God, how did they bring back Tarkin for Star Wars? How did they bring back Leia for Star Wars? And then they did this. Right. Yeah. It's surprising. I was genuinely surprised that that didn't... That this Rook android didn't single-handedly cost them this visual effects nom. I was genuinely surprised they got the nomination. Yeah. Because everything else is good.

[00:24:46] Rook is awful. Yeah. I don't know what happened there. I mean, that must have been like save for last. And they... I don't know. Or just... Who knows? It was very weird. Yeah. But anyway, I think it's definitely not going to win. But it is the fourth nomination for an Alien film. So maybe it's just kind of like the Alien name that got it in. Because both... This film is set between the original Alien and the sequel, Aliens. And both of those won this award. I don't think it's...

[00:25:15] Knowing their track record, I wouldn't be surprised if this Alien film won. But I don't think... I don't know. I don't think it's fully worthy of it. And I think there was a lot of criticism of other aspects of the film. So that's going to impact voters. Mm-hmm. So I just... I think this is kind of just one of the floaters in the category. But I don't see it getting the win at all. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, I agree. I agree.

[00:25:45] Any final thoughts on this category? No. We didn't really touch Wicked. But I mean, Wicked was fine. It just felt like normal visual effects for a bigger blockbuster. Well, I caught on a few things I particularly liked about it. I think the fact that the special effects blend in so well, though. Yes. That's a big part. Yeah. I think when we talk about production design, it is a favorite to win for production design.

[00:26:10] And I think that they used VFX, but production design played a large role. They really went over the top for that. And the VFX blends seamlessly into that. So that's to their credit. But I don't think it's going to win. Yeah. Everything they did with the visual effects was solid. But I don't think...

[00:26:33] Like you said, the production design, the costumes, a lot of the other aspects of Wicked really shine brighter than the visual effects, to me at least. Mm-hmm. I don't feel like the visual effects specifically are what made some of the other technical pieces cool. Yeah. I mean, I think it's very worthy of being on this list, but I'm rooting for Dune or... Yeah, I am rooting for Better Man, but I don't think it's going to take it. More people need to see this film. Yeah.

[00:27:00] I think Better Man was a latecomer, too. Mm-hmm. Dune Part 2 released very early last year. Right. Right. Yeah, everyone's seen that one. So everybody has watched it, and I didn't watch it until freaking December. Right. I only saw it a couple months ago. Right. So. Okay. So if you want to watch these films for yourself, Alien is on Disney Plus or Hulu. Better Man is on video on demand. Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes is on Disney Plus. Wicked is on video on demand.

[00:27:30] And Dune is on Max. So let's move on to Best Production Design. And in this case, there's two awards given out. One to the production designer and one to the set decorator. So I'm going to name those two names for each. So the nominees are for The Brutalist, Judy Becker and Patricia Cuccia. For Conclave, Susie Davies and Cynthia Sliter.

[00:27:57] For Dune Part 2, Patrice Vermette and Shane Vieux. For Nosferatu, Craig Lothrop and Beatrice Brent Nerova. For Wicked, Nathan Crowley and Lee Sandales or Sandals. And yeah, so Nosferatu is the one on this list that we have not yet talked about, although there is a deep dive linked in the show notes. And this got four nominations this year.

[00:28:26] There's also, by the way, a conclave deep dive in the show notes where we talk a lot more about production design. But Nosferatu, yeah, for anyone who doesn't know, vampire movie, Dracula, but creepy. Kind of in some ways closer to the novel. Kind of a remake of the 1922 film. Did you like Nosferatu? My feelings on Nosferatu are very wishy-washy. Okay.

[00:28:56] I gave it a six. Okay. So kind of middle of the road. There were pieces I liked, pieces I didn't. Personally, I am very hit or miss on Robert Eggers. So his direction style just doesn't always vibe with me. Okay. And this one, I think it worked less. But overall, I mean, we're looking at the production design for it.

[00:29:25] And this one is, the production design is great. I mean, you can't fault any of it. The sets are great. Costumes are great. I know that's a different category, but it helps. You know, all those things that kind of come together and just make this very much the era that it is, the locations that it is, and there's so many different sets. Like, there's a lot that they had to piece together.

[00:29:55] Yeah. It's a very interesting one. Yeah. I am a big Robert Eggers fan, and a lot of it goes into the historicity, the research that he puts in, the thought he puts into everything. And, of course, he's not the one who's doing directly the production design, but he is the one overseeing it and driving them. So maybe I should clarify also, a lot of people confuse production design and cinematography. I'm going to talk about cinematography separately in the next episode.

[00:30:25] But that is cinematography is like the movement of the camera, and production design is basically what the camera's shooting. Like, what do the sets look like? That's why set decorations in here. What is the overall color palette, the overall visual feel of the film? There's that weird, I don't know, Nosferatu has that weird, like, bluish hue over everything.

[00:30:50] And I feel like the sets were built that way, so that the cameras could move in a way that helped that, and the lighting could be done in a certain way to help that. Like, everything feels dark. Yeah. And it's supposed to. It's got that weird, like, blue-gray darkness to it. Most of the time, it's always, like, rainy, cloudy. Like, and I feel like, I mean, I'm sure they shot a lot outside, but I know they shot some stuff in studios.

[00:31:19] I've seen the behind-the-scenes stuff. So, like, they definitely did a good job on building the sets to mimic it. Mm-hmm. Yeah, this was, so Robert Eggers, he likes to work with the same people over and over again, but this is the first time he worked with the set decorator, Brent Narova. And this is the first nomination for both her and Craig Lothrop, so good for them. That's a, yeah, first go around with this guy and first nom.

[00:31:49] I mean. Yeah. That's impressive. Yep. And I know you haven't seen The Brutalist. I have, as far as production design, I think that that is one after the music. I think this is the strongest aspect of The Brutalist for me. And it's the second nod for Becker, the production designer, and first nod for Cuccia, the set decorator. And, yeah, it's just, I mean, you already have some idea.

[00:32:17] You've seen trailers and such, so you know what it looks like. Yeah. I've seen trailers. I've seen the, you know, the same poster of Adrian Brody standing there with the cigarette, no matter what way, shape, or form it is. But, yeah, I have a decent idea of what it's going to look like and encompass, but that one's just not widely available at the moment. Yeah. That's also the one that's three and a half hours, but yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:47] But as I said, we've talked about it in prior episodes in depth, and we're going to talk about it in future episodes in depth, too, because it is also one of the Best Picture nominations. Actually, yeah, one, two, three, four of these are Best Picture noms. Yeah, they are, aren't they? Oh, my goodness. All except Nosferatu. That's crazy.

[00:33:08] So, Conclave, again, there was a deep dive episode that goes into that, but this is a second nom for Davies, the production designer, first for Slider. What were your thoughts on Conclave? Conclave was a hidden gem. When it first came out, I was like, okay, this is some weird Catholic thing. I didn't think it would be interesting. And then it got nominated, and I was like, well, I guess I need to watch it.

[00:33:36] And then I did, and I was like, oh, my God, this is great. There's just so much. The recreating the Vatican and doing it in a way that feels genuine and honors what we know for a fact is truly there with the Vatican,

[00:33:58] while also adding, like, I watched a video on this where there's, like, rooms that, like, everybody's like, I'm pretty sure those aren't actually there, but it makes sense for the film. Like, and it just, it adds some interesting stuff to the plate. But there's some, like, I know what I'm trying to say.

[00:34:23] Props and, like, different staging that gets used for certain scenes. And maybe this gets into cinematography a little bit, but I think it's just the way the actors all interacted with the sets that made them all feel very lived in. Mm-hmm.

[00:35:38] And I think, yeah, that was really interesting. Really cool. Really well done. Yeah. That one, like I said, Hidden Gem, the way they did a lot of stuff in that film. Costumes, too. Good Lord. Right. Yeah. Well, yeah, so it's nominated for costumes. We'll talk about that in a moment. But, yeah, just like Eggers, there was a lot of detail, attention paid to the historical details. You know, like, this is a film a lot about the ritual of choosing a new pope.

[00:36:07] And all the detail that went into even just, like, the removing of the ring. And, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The way the ring gets removed at the beginning and the way it's, like, placed on the, like, cushion. Like, it's very, it feels like it's fake. But it's, like, that is actually what happens when the pope dies. Like, that is actually the process that occurs. With a special ribbon. And, yeah.

[00:36:35] There's, like, all, like, very, because I went into it frigging researching because I was, like, this can't all be real. And I'm, like, oh, my God. It actually is real. Like, this is all the steps they take. So, it's very interesting. I think they put a lot of work into production design on this one. Yeah. Yeah. And then for Dune, so this is production designer Vermette's fourth nod and Vermette won for the last Dune.

[00:37:03] And set designer Vio, this is his third nod. And he won for the Shape of Water. With this, you know, a lot of things that are the VFX that I was just talking about, actually, a lot of that comes down to production design. Like, to the decisions. And Villeneuve plays a big part in this.

[00:37:27] But to, like, the decisions to have Gaty Prime, that planet, be all black and white. Yes. And the orange cast of the sand in Dune that fills the air sometimes after a sandstorm. Yeah. It's just... That black and white. I mean, to do anything black and white, you have to have good understanding of colors. Mm.

[00:37:52] Because it's going to look, you know, the way they filmed it was in color, obviously. And then they make it black and white later. But, like, you have to know, okay, when we put a black and white filter on this, purple is going to look like this. You know, orange is going to look like this. So how do we light everything and build costumes in a way that make it reflect a good black and white that's not, you know, overbearing and looks real?

[00:38:23] So... Yeah. Oh, there was a lot there. And also just how to use that, you know, like, to have him have this black goo that oozes out of his mouth, Austin Butler's character. To have on Giddy Prime, the fireworks were really fireworks. They were more like ink splats in the sky, which was such a cool and unusual decision. Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard to say, is that VFX? Is that production design? Is that directing?

[00:38:52] It's all of the above, but... Yeah. It's a lot of stuff kind of looking at one thing at the same time. But, yeah, there was a lot of interesting choices with the production on that one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But the favorite to win is Wicked. And so this is the seventh nod for production designer Crowley and the third for Sandales or Sandals, Sandales, I think.

[00:39:18] And, yeah, I mean, I'm also, I'm rooting for Dune and Esferatu. They just are exceptional productions. But I also can appreciate so much what went into Wicked. It's definitely deserving of a win. Like, the fact that they planted these tulip fields in Munchkinland at the beginning to run over. And they had to time them so that the tulips, because the tulips were like different varieties. So they would have different life cycles. Yeah.

[00:39:46] So they had to be planted in time so they would all bloom at the same time to get this shot. Or that map at one point in Oz where they just, it looks like a wall map and then they just kind of like crawl into it. Yeah. Yeah. There's some crazy things that they do. And, I mean, take it as far back as the original Wizard of Oz. Like, that film is getting close to 100 years old. Mm-hmm.

[00:40:15] And it still was a visual, you know, master class back then. They did all kinds of different things that showed serious production design back then. And this, like, Wicked came in and did something very similar just with modern tech. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And there's so much. I think, I really think the, like, beginning sequence with, like, Munchkinland immediately just sets the tone. Yeah.

[00:40:46] Like, if it, obviously they wouldn't do this, but any other, like, location or any other random city, and I don't think it would have worked. But because it was Munchkinland, the one that everybody knows, Munchkinland is the one that they introduced Technicolor with back in the day. Like, I think it just adds a lot to the modern Oz. No, I agree.

[00:41:13] I mean, I think that they, it's, you know, Wicked is, it's really cohesive. Like, just the way all of the pieces pull together. And we're going to talk about the costuming in a moment, too, but, which is an important part of production design. But, yeah, just overall, Wicked just really pulls together. And speaking of costuming, by the way, I, as much as I didn't love The Brutalist and keep saying that, production design on point for The Brutalist in this category, I do think it should have been nominated in the next category for costume design as well.

[00:41:41] So, but do you have any final production design thoughts before we move on to costume? I think we kind of hit everything. I, outside of me not seeing, well, with me not seeing Brutalist yet. Of these four, then. Of the four I've seen, I think I would push Wicked. Mm-hmm. Um, but I think, honestly, I'd be okay with any of them winning this one. Yeah.

[00:42:08] Um, at least the four I've seen are very worthy of at least a nomination. So. No, I wouldn't be mad about any of these five winning. Although, I guess, I mean, I guess I'm rooting for Wicked and Dune. Uh, yeah, I don't know. They all deserve it. They all deserve it. That's kind of, it's really hard to pick on this one. Yeah. I think personal preference, I would say Wicked. Yeah. Okay. I mean, Wicked, oh my gosh. They did so much. Yes.

[00:42:34] Like, just for the amount of work and for the way it just all pulled together and looks effortless. Yeah. It's the same with Better Man. Only people, more people understand it about Wicked than understand that Better Man was a lot of work to make it look so effortless. All right. Moving on to another category of heavy hitters, a lot of the same heavy hitters, Best Costume Design.

[00:42:57] Nominees are A Complete Unknown, Ariana Phillips, Conclave, Lisey Crystal, Gladiator 2, Yante Yates, and Dave Crossman, Nosferatu, Linda Muir, sorry, I'm struggling with these. Linda Muir, Wicked, Paul Tazwell. And the new film in this bunch we haven't yet talked about is Gladiator 2. And so, Logan, how would you summarize Gladiator 2 and what did you think?

[00:43:27] Gladiator 2 is a weird one. So this is going to make me sound very young. Gladiator 1 released a few months before I was born. No. So I was born in 2000. So I had never watched Gladiator. Wow. And so the day that I knew we were going to see it, we watched Gladiator. And then like an hour later, we went and saw Gladiator 2. So like I had them back to back.

[00:43:57] I enjoyed Gladiator 1. But I had some issues with the editing and a few different things at that time. And then we saw the new one and it was hard not to compare and go, man, I like the modern stuff better. Oh, okay. So I actually prefer Gladiator 2 to Gladiator 1. Okay. Which I think is a very unpopular opinion. Sure, yeah. But there's a lot with it that I really enjoyed.

[00:44:26] I liked the sort of retcon they did, bringing his son back. Like the twins were a great addition. The twin emperors. Yeah. Pedro Pascal. Love that guy. Denzel Washington. Denzel. Oh my God. He was snubbed, by the way.

[00:44:54] But they did a lot with that film. And I think most of it worked really well. Okay. So I gave Gladiator 2 one star. Ouch. I mean, okay. So I did, you know, I do remember going. Did I see the first one in the theater? I don't know. Probably. I was in high school. But yeah.

[00:45:22] So I remember the first one when it came out and how it blew all of our minds and everything, especially, you know, with me that young. I was like, whoa, this is cinema. You know? Probably one of the movies that got me into movies. And then when I... This one was coming out. So I went back to rewatch it. And knowing that like, you know, listeners, you can check. There's a deep dive into Napoleon in the Lorehounds feed. And visually great, story-wise, a mess.

[00:45:52] And it just started to... Napoleon made me start to think differently about Ridley Scott. And going back and watching the first Gladiator now, I'm like, is this as good as I thought it was at the time? I don't know. You know? And then I watched Gladiator 2 with a friend of mine. And I have to say, we were kind of like taking the piss out of it the whole time we were watching. No, I get it. It's very... And that seems to be a very common opinion of it. I'm in the weird minority that like actually really enjoyed it.

[00:46:21] What reminds me of when there's discussions about the Star Wars trilogies and how people tend to prefer the one that was their first exposure? Yes. Yes. It's very much of a person's time, I think. Whereas I think there was just a lot of stuff from Gladiator 1 that I didn't vibe with. But with Gladiator 2, it had a bunch of cast that I already really love. Yeah.

[00:46:49] So like I already was like invested in that character, even though it's only because I know the cast that was playing them. So I think there was a lot that helped it there for me. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I won't complain about the costumes. Definitely not. Oh, God, no. So Yanti Yates won an Oscar in 2000 for the original Gladiator.

[00:47:17] And was also nominated with Dave Crossman last year for Napoleon. And I thought Napoleon was one of, if not my favorite to win last year in terms of personal preference. I was just so impressed by the detailing and the historicity of the costumes in Napoleon. And Gladiator, maybe less historicity. I don't know. It's good. Yeah. Good costuming. Yeah. Very solid. They did the thing.

[00:47:45] And Crossman, by the way, is also known for like the Batman and Rogue One. So. Yeah. Crossman has done some crazy costumes over the years. Yeah. Wow. What is your favorite to win in this category? That's a hard one to answer on this one. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because personally, I want to say Conclave.

[00:48:10] But I think in reality, looking objectively at it, it's Wicked. Mm-hmm. Because Wicked just does so much and there's so many costumes. I mean, there's such a huge cast that I think, I don't know. That's a lot of costumes to design for Wicked. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:36] I, we talked a lot about, by the way, about Conclave, the costuming in that deep dive episode. And just about how, that's another one, a lot of attention to historical detail, like the production's design part of it with the props we were saying. You know, studying from the people who actually make the clothing for the clergy and making their own decisions, making their own fabrics, you know. And this is a second nod for Crystal, who is German, by the way.

[00:49:07] Wicked. Yeah. I mean, I think Conclave's great. It deserves to be nominated. But Wicked, for me, I could not stop staring at all of the details of the Wicked costumes. Yeah. I had to watch it a second time just to stop staring at the costumes. There's a lot of very subtle details on the costumes throughout Wicked. And then it's like, it'll be like, oh, did you see the specific type of ring that this random side character was wearing and the direction they were facing?

[00:49:36] And it's like, oh my God. Like, they thought of every little aspect of these costumes. Yeah. And I think it also helps that the costume designer, Paul Tazawel, he has a background in Broadway musicals. And he actually, this is his second nomination after West Side Story. So he understands, you know, with the singing and dancing, that the costumes have to work with that.

[00:50:00] That, you know, you want costumes that are enhanced by this kind of movement, but also allow this kind of movement, but are still, you know. You've got Glinda and her classic big frou-frou poofy dress, of course, you know, but yeah. Yes. It's, he makes not just good costumes that are, that look good, but they're also functional.

[00:50:21] And I think that gives an advantage to Wicked for costumes just because, like, they were able to wear the costumes in any other, you know, like conversation scene. But they could also do the big musical numbers, no issue. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. My, my other top pick would be Nosferatu. And again, that comes to, like, the historicity.

[00:50:45] I just think about details, you know, how Robert Eggers worked, worked with Lyndon Muir to, like, how do we get, you know, we have a, how do we show that the character of Ellen is of a certain social status? Well, we have a corset that she can tie herself because she doesn't have a ladies' maid. And he just, and, and it also just happens to look really cool that way. And just all those details like that, just, Nosferatu would be a worthy winner too.

[00:51:16] And this is the first nomination for, for her. And she's, she's a regular Robert Eggers collaborator. I have to say, for me, the one that doesn't fit on this list is a complete unknown. Yes. Um, it's the fourth nod for Phillips who specializes in historical, like, Hollywood musicians and stuff. You know, she also was nominated for Walk the Line, for example. But, yeah, it's just, I just don't think it's one of the most worthy options.

[00:51:45] I'm totally with you on that. I, I mean, what are we, what are we giving costumes for here? Yeah. Finding articles of relatively modern clothing that match historical instances of the same clothing. Like, yeah, there, there, there's a game of Where's Waldo. Like, that's cool. Like, don't get me wrong. But is it worthy of a nom? They're not building costumes. They're not designing something. They're not basing it on super old historical info.

[00:52:15] They're basing it on something from 50 years ago. And I'm like, yeah, it's interesting. Like, they made Bob Dylan look like Bob Dylan. Yeah. They made Johnny Cash look like Johnny Cash. But do those costumes really constitute costumes? Like, they do, but like, they're so modern that I don't know. Yeah, I mean, and I, I just think that when you put it next to these others on the list, all of them just had to go above and beyond.

[00:52:43] And this is kind of a complete unknown. It's more of a scavenger hunt. A complete unknown was, can we go to a thrift store and find these items? Mm-hmm. And they did a good job at that. I'm not discounting that. But I don't think it's worthy of standing alongside the other four nominees. Hmm. So what are your thoughts on a complete unknown overall? It was fine. Yeah. There's nothing to, I don't know.

[00:53:13] There was three musician biopics nominated this year. Mm-hmm. Between Better Man, Complete Unknown, Maria. Like, that is how frequently we are getting them, that we have three of them nominated for the Oscars this year. Well, and I would make, I would say Complete Unknown is the middle of the three for me. Yeah. It's very interesting. Like, that we keep just pumping them out. Yeah.

[00:53:41] But it seems like they keep doing well, so they're going to keep getting pumped out. Yeah. So that's where we're at. Yeah. And it's such a shame. Better Man is the most original one, but it did the worst at the box office. Yes. So people see the original stuff. It's, yeah. That's how we train them to make more. Exactly. All right. So I think, I guess we're both going with Wicked and Gold Derby agrees with us. Yeah. Definitely, definitely Wicked, but I'd be okay with anything but a Complete Unknown winning.

[00:54:11] Yeah. Okay. Same. All right. Moving on to the adjacent Best Makeup and Hairstyling, where the nominees are A Different Man, Mike Marino, Dave Presto, and Crystal Girardo, Amelia Perez, Julia Flock-Carbonell, Emmanuel Ranvier, and Jean-Christophe Spadaccini, Nosferatu, David White, Tracy Loader, and Suzanne

[00:54:34] Stokes Muntin, The Substance, Pierre-Olivier Persin, Stéphanie Guillon, and Mariline Scarcelli, and Wicked, Francis Hannon, Laura Blount, and Sarah Neuth. So A Different Man is the new one in this bunch that we haven't talked about yet because it did not get as many nominations as it should have. Absolutely not.

[00:55:02] Will you give a plot synopsis for this one? Yeah. I mean, A Different Man is you've got a physically disfigured man who is Sebastian Stan, and he's just kind of going through his life. He deals with the things that you would expect someone who is physically, looks physically different to go through, aka bullying constantly by the world.

[00:55:30] He wants to do all kinds of different things, wants to become, meets a woman who tries to adapt his life and experiences into a stage play. He wants to play himself after he becomes pretty via some weird sci-fi movie magic. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:55] And so he's pretty boy trying to play formerly, quote unquote, ugly him. Right. And he's trying to like grapple with the idea that he's wanting to be his old self again. Yeah. So what I find interesting about this, and then Adam Pearson's character comes in and is like the better version of who he used to be, and it just makes him doubt everything. Yes.

[00:56:22] But yeah, so in terms of this getting, it should have gotten acting nominations. I will say again, I think that Sebastian Stan and Adam Pearson should have gotten acting nominations, but it got makeup and it's very deserving of that. It even points out within the film when he's trying to play like his former self, he's, he's like trying to do the makeup and it's just falling off his face. It's just, you know, and actually Paolo said that he at first did not think it was Sebastian

[00:56:52] Stan because the makeup was so good. Yes. That was one of the instances where I knew Adam Pearson was in the film. And when I first saw Sebastian Stan as his character. Oh, so you too. I genuinely sat there and I was like, I had to pause it and I, cause I was at home and I was like, there is no way that that is Sebastian. And I like zoomed in and I was like, oh my God, it is like you could, I could tell from

[00:57:20] like, just, you can hear his voice and his like shoulder builds. Like he watching all the Marvel movies forever. Like, of course I know how Sebastian Stan kind of moves as an actor. And so like watching him move and I was like, oh my God, that is him. I was like, it doesn't even look like him. Like they did such a good job on making him look like a whole different person. And then when he comes out, he, you know, looks like Sebastian Stan, but he looks like,

[00:57:47] you know, his normal self, but there's just something that they do very well with that makeup that it's truly insane. And I love that Adam Pearson had a huge part in helping them design that makeup. Like I, he did an interview where he, as someone who is genuinely physically, uh, has the facial tumors. Yes. He has all those tumors and everything.

[00:58:17] And he is an actor, but he, you know, he deals with those things in real life all the time. But he, he had a lot of say on that makeup and stuff from my understanding where he helped kind of guide how they were going about certain things, um, through a lot of the production. Yeah. So I think that's very cool. Yeah. And, and people might know him from, um, was it under the skin? I think so.

[00:58:45] Under the Scarlett Johansson, uh, what's his face? Jonathan Glazer. Isn't that? Um, but yeah, so this was, uh, the third nomination for Marino, one of the makeup artists and the other two Pesto and Gerardo also worked on the Batman and the Penguin, uh, with the, this team. So this is, yeah, a top notch team here for sure. And definitely a worthy nominee. Um, is it your favorite in the category or do you have another favorite? So I actually have a favorite, but different, okay.

[00:59:15] Different man is pushing it. Uh huh. But my favorite is the substance. Yeah. It's my favorite and it's also gold Derby's favorite. Yeah. Yeah. So why, why is it yours? Well, do you want to, um, okay. So I guess we should set up just a little bit that the plot is about for anyone who doesn't know to me more, it plays a 50 year old woman who's fired from her job being, you know,

[00:59:43] uh, a sort of workout video person. Yeah. Yeah. Um, because the producer played by Dennis Quaid thinks she's getting too old. And then Margaret Qualley, um, comes in as a younger version of her because they get this substance that allows them to switch back and forth between the two bodies, the older body and the younger body one week at a time so that she can pretend to be younger again, get her job back and start a new career and all that. And then obviously things go awry. So yeah. Makeup.

[01:00:11] It's very, I, I don't do this a lot with horror films with the substance. I was cringing a lot. There was a lot of makeup that was done so well that I was like squirming in my seat because I was like, Oh my God, how did they do that? Mm-hmm. There's the, the very first use of the substance. Mm-hmm.

[01:00:37] When she's in the bathroom, she injects it and then you just see everything start happening. And I'm trying to be vague with it, but watching. I mean, I think you can say like her back. I mean, watching, she basically. Watching her back rip open like she's the Hulk, but it was her skin tear open and another human be birthed out of her back. Mm-hmm. A little fricking weird. Yeah.

[01:01:02] But, you know, I was, I was genuinely like uncomfy watching that scene unfold. And I'm like, that is a masterclass in makeup to be able to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just incredible realism until the end. It goes over the top on purpose, but I won't spoil that. Yes. But even. Creatively. Even that over the topness, it's very creative.

[01:01:28] It's a testament to the makeup team that they made. You see the progression over time throughout the film. Yeah. And the makeup's always changing. Whereas Different Man, it's phenomenal makeup, but it is the same. Until a point, and then it ends, and then it's pretty much it. Mm-hmm. Like it does reach a point where like the makeup stops being a main factor, whereas with the substance, it's always the main factor. Right.

[01:01:57] So I think that's why substance kind of beats out Different Man for me. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. But I do think both of them are really good and both do like facial, like prosthetics and stuff very well. Yeah. Yeah. And I just want to point out that one of the people in the team, Persin, also did this year's Count of Monte Cristo, which I keep recommending over and over, the French version, and also did Game of Thrones, by the way.

[01:02:26] I did not know that. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, if there is another that I think deserves to sit up top with these three, I'm going to go with Nosferatu, where they do, there's just a range of everything from doing like different types of beauty makeup for the women and also the sort of unearthly, sickly beauty makeup for Lily Rose Depp's character, to just making the walking corpse that is Count Orlok. Count Orlok.

[01:02:55] Oh my God. And I think they did a really good job at this in promo. They did a great job hiding what he was going to look like. Mm-hmm. I mean, we all knew he was going to be that weird, you know, like kind of pointy ears, bald-ish, like, because that's roughly what we've always seen Nosferatu as. Mm-hmm. We knew that was vaguely going to be it, but the reality of what we saw was like, oh my goodness,

[01:03:23] every time he came on screen and we saw a different part of his body and it was like, oh, this is gross. Like, this is genuinely disgusting. Like, they did really good work with it. And I gotta point out, this category had two horror noms. Yeah. Which horror by the Academy is so widely overlooked that to have, we have quite a few in this year and two of them are for makeup. And I think that's pretty cool.

[01:03:53] Nine noms overall. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, we could have gotten a tenth with, if Hugh Grant had gotten in for Heretic. I've heard good things about that one too, so. Yeah. No, it was good. And he did a great job. Yeah. So Nosferatu, David White is most well known for his work on the Guardians of the Galaxy. And so he was nominated for that. This is his second nomination and very worthy, I think. Yeah.

[01:04:20] I have to say, I think, I don't, I almost feel bad continuing to crap on this film, but I feel like Emilia Perez is like the, what's this one doing here in the category? And I know. I don't, for almost every nomination Emilia Perez got, I could go, why the heck is it here? Mm-hmm. This one specifically, it's like, what frickin' makeup was there?

[01:04:45] Well, I mean, I guess it's, it's mostly transforming Carla Sofia Gascon into the pre, I mean, of course there's just general makeup. Yeah. That they're, to help the characters create the, you know, Selena Gomez looks different than she looks anywhere else. Yes. But it's, I think it's mostly with Carla Sofia Gascon and making her pre-transition. And I know that one of the members of the team, Spada, Spadaccini is specialized in prosthetics. Yeah.

[01:05:13] Um, so I, yeah, there's definitely that going on, but it just. But that, and that's such a small part of the film. Mm-hmm. Like, what would, maybe 50 minutes? Like, the first act includes that. And then after that main character transitions from male to female, like, that's kind of, like, it's just pretty much normal makeup after that. There's nothing, like, truly phenomenal.

[01:05:43] Like, did they do a good job with the normal stuff? Yeah. Mm-hmm. But is it worthy of a nom? No. I don't think so. Yeah. I would make that argument for all of Amelia Perez's noms, but one. So. Yeah. Yeah. It just feels like there are other more worthy, um, more, yeah. Yeah.

[01:06:07] It's hard to not keep digging that one deeper because it's, everybody else has already destroyed that film. Like, what else can we say about it? Yeah. Um, okay. But what is worthy is, is wicked. And one thing is, I would just say, painting green skin is really difficult. Like, I would point to, for instance, I was quite disappointed with how they did Hera on, on the Ahsoka TV show for Star Wars fans.

[01:06:38] I think that they really did not paint that green well. It just looks sallow and flat. And this is a beautiful, natural looking green skin on Elphaba, on Cynthia Erivo's character. Um, but overall, I think, yeah, as we keep talking about, it's a very stylized movie and the makeup and hair plays an important role in that for every character. Yeah. It's, I mean, I'm not going to add anything else here. Like being able to do that green. Mm-hmm.

[01:07:07] Elphaba. Just, I mean, that did it. Like, you did it in a way that felt real, that wasn't done in poor taste, that felt real enough and didn't cause any, at least noticeable difference. You know, maybe just got cleaned up in post. I don't know. But like the hair, the, um, like the costume, it never looked like those were green. Like it, it looked like it was always just her skin.

[01:08:04] Mm-hmm. That I never saw an issue with, with Wicked. Mm-mm. Definitely not. Yeah. And this is the second nomination for Hannon who won for the Grand Budapest Hotel. Um, yeah, I, I guess, you know, but you, me and Gold Derby all agree this is the substances to. Yeah. I think it's, I think it's definitely the substance here. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. All right. Moving on to, now we're going to the two editing awards.

[01:08:33] First, Best Film Editing. The nominees are Anora, edited by Sean Baker, the director himself. The Brutalist, edited by David Janshko. Um, Conclave, edited by Nick Emerson. Emilia Perez, edited by Juliette Welfing. Wicked, edited by Myron Kerstein. And yeah, what are your overall thoughts on this category? Editing this year is an interesting one.

[01:08:59] Um, I'm going to just ignore Emilia Perez. Yeah, we don't need to talk about it. Just, why is it here? I don't know. Second nom for Welfing. Yes. Wicked, Wicked is very good. I think the biggest thing with Wicked that I hear a lot of criticism of, it's only half the show. Well, okay. But at the same time, like, that's what I hear. It's a two-an-half-hour movie. Yes, I'm with it.

[01:09:28] Like, I think it's solid. But, um, Anora is definitely the most interesting one to me. Mm-hmm. Um, because Baker does that weird thing where he edits his own, like, the things he directs. He edits his own films, which is very weird. Yeah. Um, that's very, very uncommon. Um, and he uses a weird method. Yeah, they'll be like, uh, like, they'll help with the edit. Mm-hmm.

[01:09:57] But this is, like, he is the editor. Mm-hmm. Um, so I don't know. I think it's very cool what he did with Anora. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's this saying that film is made in the editing room, and I think he really buys into that. And that seems like, he's like, I realized, you know what, I should let someone else do the cinematography. But, um, I'm going to edit the film, because that's where I kind of make the film.

[01:10:20] And he has this interesting process where he'll edit and completely finish one scene before moving on to the next. I didn't know that. That's really interesting. Yeah. He must really, when he's doing his films, have a, like, one-to-one reference in his head of what he wants everything to look like. Mm-hmm. Because that's crazy. Mm-hmm. Yeah, very idiosyncratic. Um, and, and I agree.

[01:10:47] Editing is also, uh, I think for Wicked, editing's part of the reason why Wicked works. And why Wicked doesn't feel as long as it is. Absolutely. The way certain scenes are cut together and the way we cut very seamlessly from musical number to normal conversation. Yeah. And, like, back and forth with that. Like, to do that well, you have to understand, you have to understand stage shows. Mm-hmm.

[01:11:17] And it's very clear that the editing on Wicked is done in a way that very much mimics what a stage show would be. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But then also taking advantage of the fact that, you know, they, it is a film, so they have more, the camera can move more, whereas in a stage show, you're always looking at the same, from the same angle. So, um, and just, yeah, the, the editing together, the different perspective, perspectives. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool.

[01:11:47] So, Karen Steen had prior, uh, collaborations with John M. Chu, the director on Crazy Rich Asians and In the Heights, but was nominated for another musical, Tick, Tick, Boom, in 2021. Yes. Which, Tick, Tick, Boom, was a great one, too, so. So, I have another hot take about The Brutalist here, and then I don't like the editing.

[01:12:11] Um, you'll hear me get into this a bit more in the next episode when I talk to Paolo, who, again, really likes The Brutalist. So, if you're a Brutalist fan, uh, you will be vindicated in the next episode. It's just my personal opinion that the editing, I think this goes back to the directing.

[01:12:27] I think that, um, all of the shots are held too long, but not in a way where The Brutalist, uh, sorry, where Conclave, which is also nominated in this category, Conclave also, the director gave the editor the, um, instructions to hold the shots for as long as possible. But, there's much more interesting cinematography, camera work going on in Conclave for me.

[01:12:53] And, I don't know, in The Brutalist, it just, there are some really interesting things going on in the editing. In particular, like, in the opening scene is a great example where, um, the visuals are, you're disoriented, you're not really sure where you are. You eventually realize that he's walking up out of a ship, you see the Statue of Liberty first upside down, and then at the same time, you're having, um, a voiceover in Hungarian.

[01:13:21] So, you're reading the subtitles, but also you have this, like, music, you know, I talked about that in the music episode and played a sample of that music that, that happens there. But, um, yeah, it's, there's a lot of interesting stuff like that going on that almost, I called it like a fever dream in my review. And a lot of, and, but then in other times, it's just that the editing is part of why I just find it to be a very messy film. And I know, yeah, you haven't.

[01:13:46] No, that's, hey, I, I'm going into The Brutalist knowing I don't do well with long films. And I don't do well with over-edited films. So, I'm. I don't know if it's over-edited or, yeah, I don't know. In some way. We'll see. Um, Conclave. Gorgeous. I mean, I'll praise that one as long as I can. I think it does a great job with the editing.

[01:14:16] Um, there's a lot of, um, unique stuff with it that really lends itself to, um, I don't know, telling, telling its story effectively in the way that it's edited. And it pieces these different parts of the story together. Like, I know there's been memes of Conclave that have kind of went all rampant with different characters.

[01:14:45] You know, like, live reaction of this, uh, you know, this bishop doing this thing. And it's very funny. Yeah, the characters are great. But the characters, the way they're edited is the reason that those characters vibe so much. Hmm. If it wasn't edited the way it is, those characters wouldn't work the way they do. Hmm. That's a good point. That's a good point.

[01:15:07] I do want to say for the brutalist, uh, since I've been throwing it under the bus, that the, the editor, um, Jansko, or Jankso, uh, Hungarian, by the way. He also co-edited Monkey Man, which is one of my favorite films of the year. And there's also, there's a deep dive in the Lorehounds feed into that. But, uh, I really liked what he did with Monkey Man or helping Dev Patel with that. So. Yeah. That is another one I have not seen yet. So. Oh, you gotta watch that one. Yes.

[01:15:37] It's on the list. I mean, I'm not even a, um, what's it, what's it called? What's a counter-reeves one again? Uh, John. Uh, John Wick. Wick. Yeah. I'm not even a John Wick fan. I've watched all the films and I'm like, yeah, it's okay. It's fine. It's not really my genre. Um, people compare Monkey Man to John Wick and yes, but I love Monkey Man. That's great. So for what it's worth, even if you're not a John Wick fan, give it a try. But yeah, do beware. It's, it's violence and involves fighting and yeah.

[01:16:06] I mean, heck yeah. I mean, for some of that to turn off. But yeah, so I guess for this, uh, I guess we're, I don't know. Do we have a favorite in this? I guess Anora. Anora probably would be my editing one. Um, but I, I'd truly be okay with Conclave or Wicked. Um, until I see Brutalist, I won't judge it. Right. And Emilia Perez, I've said it before. I'll say it again. Doesn't need a nom. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:16:36] All right. So this brings us to our final category for today, which is best sound. And, um, the five nominees for this are a complete unknown. Todd, a Maitland, Donald Sylvester, Ted Kaplan and Paul Massey and David Giammarco. Dune, part two, Gareth John, Richard King, Ron Bartlett and Doug Hempel.

[01:16:59] Emilia Perez, Erwin Kersenet, Imeric DeVolder, Max, Maxence Dusserre, Cyril Holtz and Niels Barletta. Wicked, Simon Hayes, Nancy Nugent Title, Jack Dolman, Andy Nelson and John Marquis.

[01:17:23] And the Wild Robot, Randy Tom, Brian Chumney, Gary A. Rizzo and Leffertz. Um, and the Wild Robot is, is a new one for this episode, but we did talk about it in animated feature. It's one of the, it's actually currently the favorite to win animated feature though. I'm rooting for Flo. I'm rooting for memoir on that one. So. Oh, actually, you know what? I, memoir of a snail is my favorite in that category. I just don't think it's going to win.

[01:17:52] I don't think it'll win either. Yeah. I think it's between Wild Robot and Flo. And of the two, Flo is my second favorite overall in the category. Fair enough. Yeah. I mean, animation is my bread and butter. Um, so I, Wild Robot getting a sound nom though is interesting to me. I like that animation's representing. Yes. It's not often you see an animated film nominated in a category that's not song or score or something.

[01:18:22] Like, so to see it in like a tag category is very interesting, but I don't, I, I don't think it's going to do well in this category. Um, I think it's cool that it got a nomination, but I don't, I don't see it going anywhere. Um, because the Academy still has a weird view on animation.

[01:18:41] So, uh, we have Randy Tom has 17 nominations going way back to the eighties. The last Jedi and two wins, which includes the Incredibles, which was also animation. So, and then you have Chumney has, uh, two nods and, uh, Rizzo has five nominations and

[01:19:11] two wins. So I think it's, it might also just be people, uh, are saying like, Oh, these are real champs in there. And, you know, we should recognize their word. That's definitely possible because they've got such a long running, at least nomination history. Yeah. I mean, this is, it's, I called it kind of a NEPO category. It is one where, so complete unknown. You have Massey has, uh, this is like the 11th nom for Massey, six nom for Maitland, fourth

[01:19:40] for Giammarco and, uh, Sylvester one for four versus Ferrari, uh, wicked, uh, third nom for Hayes, one who won for Les Mis, 24th nom for Nelson, who has two wins. Dune, um, yeah. King has nine noms, one, four times Bartlett, four noms, one for Dune, uh, 10th or 11th nom for Hemphill who won twice.

[01:20:07] So it's really just like all of the people who are nominated. Yeah. It's a lot of repeat nominees. Like that's very few people in here nominated that aren't returners. And I mean, let's be real. The only one without returners is Amelia Perez again. Yeah. I didn't even put notes for that one in here, but it's fine. I mean, I think a complete unknown and Amelia Perez, the thing about both of them,

[01:20:37] is that they are to a certain degree musicals. Yes. And I think that might play into the, the sound nomination. I think that's definitely part of it. Um, but I just, uh, Amelia Perez, uh, a complete unknown there, an argument could be made. Um, I think if of any of a complete unknowns, like technical nominations, I think this one makes sense.

[01:21:03] Um, I don't personally agree with it, but I, I understand why it got the nomination. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so the, the top two, uh, picks for this are wicked and dune part two, to be honest, those are the two that I would be rooting for. Um, I guess I would give the edge to dune. I just think there's some really cool things that are done with the, with the sound that

[01:21:32] also plays into the score, which was disqualified. We went into that in a music episode. I, I also think with, uh, sorry. I also think dune would be my pick for sound. Um, it just, it does a lot of cool stuff with the sound design and it's just, yeah, I don't know. Wicked does some cool stuff too, but yeah. Wicked another musical. Yeah. I think, I think dune and wicked are like the two front runners for sure. Yeah. For sound. I, I think the other three are kind of pretty much out of contention.

[01:22:01] I really think it's just between dune and wicked and I think it'll really just be a coin flip when the ceremony comes around. Hmm. Yeah. I think, I mean, I think those are two films where people want to honor them, but are neither is going to win best picture. So I think they're going to be looking for other categories to honor them in. Yeah. Yeah. Well, any other thoughts on sound? No, I think sounds a pretty, pretty easy one this year. Yeah.

[01:22:32] Well, yeah. Between the two of them. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess I would give it to dune, but it's also, I just, I think I've, I've watched dune the most out of all the ones on this list. So that also gives me a greater appreciation for the details of it. Yeah. Yeah. Are there any other films this year nominated or not that you want to shout out? I mean, I kind of mentioned it, but memoir of a snail. I mean, yeah. Jeezy Pete's that, um, that one came out of nowhere for me. Um, yeah.

[01:23:02] I hadn't watched anything from Adam Elliott and then they did, uh, animation showcase did a Q and a with him. And so prepping for that, I was like, I really need to watch some of his stuff. So I watched his like trio of, um, short films about like people in his family, um, brother, uncle, and cousin. And then watch the Q and a watch memoir of a snail that night. And I was like, Oh my goodness.

[01:23:32] Um, that one kind of just blew me out of the water. It is definitely like my favorite from last year, which is again, not at all what I was expecting. Um, yeah, you know, I gushed about it, uh, with, with Benoit from animation showcase, who was able to walk us through a lot of the production design details too. But for me, um, it's especially, you know, you mentioned his shorts are about members of his family and, and memoir of a snail is such a personal film.

[01:24:00] Uh, that's one thing I really liked about it. So personal and specific and darkly humorous, it's going to make you sad, but it's also, there's, there is tinges of hope in there. There's silver linings and there's a lot of humor. Yeah, exactly. That, I mean, I've said it a lot. I, animation is like my thing, but stop motion. It's like my favorite. And so anytime I see good stop motion like that, I just am immersed.

[01:24:30] And memoir is absolutely like my favorite film of last year. Okay. By like a wide margin. That's fair. Um, my favorite animated film from last, my favorite film from last year, I keep saying is, um, is Mars Express, which is this French sci-fi. I have been hearing really good things. I need to watch it. Yeah. I think you will. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:25:00] I think you'll like it. It's very Blade Runner meets. I keep calling it Blade Runner meets scavenger's reign and I haven't thought of a better way to describe it. So that's what I'm going to keep going. That makes sense. I'm looking right now. I have opened my top five are Dune, Mars Express, Anora, Better Man, and Little Lord of Lock. It's just a vampire movie. I keep recommending people. And then my top, my number six is my top, um, documentaries, The Remarkable Life of Ebelin. Yeah. I've also heard good things about that one. I just didn't get to it.

[01:25:31] Yeah. My real pain oddity, a different man, monkey man, wicked. My top five from last year are substance. Very interesting. Um, memoir of a snail, wild robot challengers kingdom and planet of the apes transformers one. Okay. So three of my five are animations. So I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's how I am though. So, but of the best picture nominees, who are you rooting for?

[01:26:00] That's a hard one. Um, obviously I still, I'm still short on a few of them. So I obviously no brutalist still, I'm still here. And Nickel Boys are two that I still haven't seen either. So I've only seen seven out of 10. Okay. But as of right now, it's definitely a toss up between wicked and the substance for me. Okay. I truly don't know right at this moment, which of those two I would say. Yeah.

[01:26:30] Um, because substance is really interesting and done really well, but in, it made me so very physically squeamish that I think it's deserving wicked. I just loved, cause it's a good adaptation of the first half of the story. Um, I don't know. It's, it's a tough category this year. Yeah. Um, yeah.

[01:26:59] And like I said, I haven't seen them all yet. So once I get there, maybe I'll have a better idea. But as of right now, it's definitely between the substance and wicked. Okay. And what do you think might be the biggest upset at the Oscars? Hmm. Hmm. The biggest upset I think is going to fall into one of the acting categories, which is usually where it comes up anyway.

[01:27:27] Um, I think we're going to get some weird, I think actress is going to be very interesting. I think we're going to get some random slide in of like, I don't know. I know Mikey Anderson has been getting, she's been getting attention, which is not what was originally expected. Right. Well, I mean, to me more.

[01:27:52] But after everything that happened with the BAFTAs, and now like I could see both of them getting the actress, um, like attention. And I just recorded the acting categories with Paulo and he's rooting for Fernando Torres. And it's definitely between the three of them. From my understanding. Yeah. I haven't, again, haven't seen, I'm still here. So can't comment on Torres, but we'll see. Yeah.

[01:28:21] I do think actress and supporting actress are going to be the, the, the two most argumentative upsetting categories this year. I'm not sure. Okay. Well, listeners tune in for the next episodes for more on those categories. Um, any final thoughts before we go? I mean, just keep watching them.

[01:28:44] Oscars are making changes based on things that they're hearing. Um, it sounds like stunts are coming soon, hopefully. I hope so. So I, I think, I think things that the public have been pointing out for a long time are finally being remedied, the Academy. So keep watching. All right. Well, on that note, two stunts. May we be talking about that next year?

[01:29:14] Well, thank you again so much, Logan. Thank you. Thank you again, Logan. I'm going to add links to the show notes to both that Corridor Crew video that Logan and I were talking about, um, and, uh, about the Better Man VFX, but also a playlist of mini videos about the cool things you didn't realize they did in this film from Weta's own YouTube channel. Um, I just wanted to add also that I really think soundtrack to a coup d'etat, my favorite

[01:29:42] nominated documentary should have gotten editing and sound as well. Uh, but I guess that's thinking a little too outside the box for the nominating procedure. You know, Logan was saying about how you're, you're seeing more animation straying outside the usual places. Uh, it would be nice to see the same for documentary. Um, a couple of updates from the biggest Oscar precursors have popped up since we recorded that conversation.

[01:30:11] Uh, first checking in again on the BAFTAs, Dune part two got its technical achievement pats on the head in the VFX and sound categories. Costume design did indeed go to Wicked, this season's front runner, which also took production design. But Conclave took home editing, just part of a very good night that Conclave had at the BAFTAs. The substance predictably and deservedly took up, uh, took makeup and hair.

[01:30:37] And at the Independent Spirit Awards this past weekend, there aren't many tech awards, but editing went to September 5th, which is arguably a better place for that film than screenplay, for which it actually is nominated at the Oscars. But yeah, it's September 5th, not nominated for editing at the Oscars. And that brings us to the SAG Awards, the Screen Actors Guild Awards, which aired Sunday on Netflix. And it is, by the way, a genuinely delightful watch.

[01:31:05] So I do recommend looking it up and watching at least the opening of the show. Um, the theme was looking back at the start of the career. So, and, uh, Kristen Bell was the host and she did like, do you want to be an actor? Like a whole parody. Anyway, um, there were also, it was the first award show that I feel like has really remembered the fires, which are obviously still deeply impacting Los Angeles.

[01:31:33] So we'll see how the Oscars handled that this weekend. Um, and we will talk more about the SAG results at the end of the next episode, which is all about acting and directing, but some highlights and some game changers. There were awards that bucked recent trends, ensuring that there's a real dead heat in the Best Actress, Lead Actor, and Best Picture races.

[01:31:57] So, uh, back, Best Actress, it's neck and neck between Mikey Madison for Onora and Demi Moore, who won for The Substance in Lead Actor. Timothy Chalamet won for his work as Bob Dylan in A Complete Unknown. And Adrian Brody from The Brutalist is no longer, he's no longer the 100% sure thing that a lot of people thought it was. And biggest news of all, Conclave took home the biggest prize of the night, which means

[01:32:26] that Onora no longer feels like an absolute lock for Best Picture. On the TV side, Shogun dominated again for the last time this season anyway, uh, taking home the big ensemble prize and also statues for Anna Sawai and Hiroyuki Sonata and TV stunts, by the way. The Fall Guy won for movie stunts, which makes sense since that entire film is a love letter to stunt performers and a plea for more recognition during awards season.

[01:32:52] Uh, in comedy, only Murders in the Building surprise with a win in Comedy Ensemble for Martin Short, uh, meaning Hax didn't do as well as expected, but Gene Smart did still win. And Colin Farrell took home a, an apparently heavy, no one could stop talking about how heavy their fricking statues were. Uh, but yeah, he took home a statue for the Penguin, but Kristen Malati did not because Jessica Gunning of Baby Reindeer did instead.

[01:33:20] Um, there are lots of clips on the Netflix YouTube channel from the SAG Awards, but yeah, it is genuinely worth watching. It's a good time. And then come chat with all of us, uh, about all of this that we've been discussing on the Discord, where there's a special awards season channel under Current Shows, as well as, as well as channels for everything else. We also want to hear your thoughts on this year's Oscars. You can send them to oscarsatthelorehounds.com.

[01:33:48] And if you enjoyed this episode, please share it with someone else you think might like some Oscar insights as well. There's two episodes left in this series covering the biggest prizes of the night. So the next episode, going to be talking about acting and directing. And finally, David and I wrap it all up with a finale dedicated to the 10 Best Picture nominees. In the meantime, check the show notes for links to all the episodes in this series so far,

[01:34:15] plus last year's series, not to mention this year's Oscar-nominated movies we've done deep dives into. And also check out Mai and Jean's reaction to the new Captain America movie. And there's lots more non-Oscar content coming your way. Just a gentle reminder for the Severance fans, there is a separate Severance feed. Supercast and Patreon subscribers have access to the extra Severance topic deep dives. that come out sporadically, which are also available through a discounted season pass.

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